South Africa Sharks: Building a Career Protecting Sharks When Fear Shapes the Narrative

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On today's episode of the Beyond Jaws

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podcast, we have Low

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Clossons from South Africa here

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to talk about her career in not only with

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sharks, but in marine science.

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We talk about pipe fish.

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We talk about an endemic

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seahorse in South Africa.

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We talk about just

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living in South Africa.

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Dave recounts a lot of

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stories from South Africa.

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It is so much fun and I

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can't wait to bring this to you.

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So let's start the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome back to another

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exciting episode of

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the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I'm your co-host Andrew Lewin here with

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my co-host Dr. David Ebert.

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David, we went back a little in time and

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recounted a little bit of

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your experience in South Africa,

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in South Africa, while talking about

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Low's experience in South Africa.

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A lot of fun.

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What do you want people to

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get out of this interview?

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I think just a little bit of a tour guide

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of South Africa, just some of the real

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beautiful places there.

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I talked about the garden route and Nisna

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and stuff, all beautiful places.

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And of course, whatever we do is have

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someone on from South Africa.

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For me, it's a kind of chance to go down

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memory lane and get a little nostalgic.

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I had such a wonderful time and wonderful

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experience in South

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Africa as a young person there.

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And thankfully, we talked about some

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stuff we're not going to

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include in this podcast today.

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That will leave off for now.

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But no, it's wonderful.

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I mean, I just I always talk

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very highly of South Africa.

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I love I just love the

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country's beautiful place.

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And I just the people are wonderful.

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And I've just had

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some really good friends.

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Low's a person I've gotten to know be

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friends with in the last couple of years.

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And we talk about how, you know, she was

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really working on

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everything but sharks and rays.

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And we got connected through a mutual

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friend, Jonathan

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Giddens, who was on the podcast.

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Yeah.

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Last year in August, I think she was.

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And I just talked about how we network

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and the marine community small.

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And one thing led to another.

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And now Lowe's kind of diving into the

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shark world, which is

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kind of cool to see.

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So I love that.

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Yeah, I love that.

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I think that's awesome.

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It's going to be, you know, I think it's

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always fun for me to learn

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about sort of the geography

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of South Africa when we have

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people from that country on.

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But also just, you know, when we hear

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about South Africa, especially on this,

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on this podcast, we

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talk a lot about sharks.

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But in this episode, we really got to

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focus in on the diversity

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of animals that are there,

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but also the discovery

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that needs to be made.

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One interesting thing is a lot of times

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we have people on from like

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South America or from like

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the Southeast Pacific, you get a lot of

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people like who haven't

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done research because funding

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hasn't focused on their

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countries in a lot of places.

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And now they're just discovering so many

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new things with like manor

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rays and these little sharks

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and all this kind of stuff.

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You've worked there as well.

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And you have so many collaborators around

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that are able to do this.

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But even in South Africa, a country that

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you would think would

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have dedicated resources to

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marine science just based on like the

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shark science that they

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do, still discovering a lot

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of things that are happening.

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We talked about the discovery of a

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species of seahorse in this episode.

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And that ends up being like they didn't

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know that it was there.

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And so I think it was really cool to talk

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to Lo about this

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because she was really kind of

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finding her way within marine science and

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being like where do I

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belong based on sort of like

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networking and availability of stuff and

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like, oh, this

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interests me as an explorer.

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And that's really where we dive into is

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like her science career so

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far as an explorer and where

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that's going to take her in the future.

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So I can't wait for people

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to listen to this interview.

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So they let's get into the

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interview with Lo Claussens.

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Enjoy everybody and

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we'll talk to you after.

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Halo, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about all things

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marine biology and of course sharks?

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I am.

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Thank you for having me.

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Well, welcome to another episode of the

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Beyond Jaws podcast where we have an

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awesome guest to kick off our new year.

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We have the fabulous Dr. Lo

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Claussens from South Africa.

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And you know me, if we have somebody from

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South Africa, you know, it's

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gonna be an awesome show today.

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So Lo started her journey studying South

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Africa's endangered and endemic Nysna

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seahorse for her PhD.

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She after completing her PhD, she

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continued to research and

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conservation work in the Nysna

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estuary, which is in the south coast of

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South Africa, continue to

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work in and worked as the

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director for the Nysna basin project.

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Her work during the critically endangered

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pipefish led to the species being

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downlisted to endangered

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in 2025.

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She's been a National Geographic explorer

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since 2019 due to her

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work on the pipefish.

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Also during this time, she discovered the

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first pygmy seahorse from Africa.

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I won't try to pronounce the name.

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It's Hippocants or something or other as

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well as a new pygmy pipefish.

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I won't try to pronounce that one either

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because I don't understand it.

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It's so easy.

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I know.

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I'll let you do that in just a moment.

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For this work, she was named a finalist

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for the Future Nature Award in 2020.

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In 2021, Lo moved to Palau to lead the

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development research of conservation of

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Palau's National Marine Sanctuary,

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which he took her first open and deep

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ocean diving experiences.

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During her time in Palau, she developed

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locally led offshore

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research focused on local capacity

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development and guidance of onshore of

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offshore research in small

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island developing states.

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It was during this time she saw the light

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and started to gravitate

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to sharks when she recorded

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the Pacific sleeper shark for the first

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time in Palau waters, thus

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extending its known range at

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the time.

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And we extended it beyond that actually.

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So and thanks to our mutual friend,

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Jonathan Goodens, Giddens,

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who was on the podcast last

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August, she connected Lo and I, which

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resulted in a publication documenting

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this range extension.

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Now here's where Lo's

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story really gets good.

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In 2023, Lo moved to Timor Leste taking

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up a postdoctoral fellowship with

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WorldFish to study the unknown ecosystems

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and the remote South

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Island and South Coast.

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During this time, she started seeing very

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shark and ray species being landed.

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And this resulted in a collaboration with

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me and Adriana Pestana, who was also on

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the podcast last March,

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documenting the shark and

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ray fawn of Timor Leste.

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In fact, one of the cool discoveries

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we've already made was done through a

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live video of the painted swell shark,

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which led to another

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publication with Jonathan Lo and I.

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Lo will be featured in an upcoming

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episode of the Save our Seas Foundation

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supported documentary series, Searching

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for Lost Sharks, Extinct or Live.

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We'll have an update

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for you on that later.

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Lo's experiences have made her a

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cheerleader for the underdogs and those

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that are too often forgotten, like

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seagrasses, muck and weird critters to

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remote coastal communities.

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She's a member of both the IUCN Species

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Survival Commission,

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Seahorse, Pipefish and Sea Gragons.

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I'll have to find out what those are and

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the IUCN SSC species

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monitoring specialist group.

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Lo has published 40 papers, including two

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with me, and she has

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one book to her credit.

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She's received

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numerous grants and awards.

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She's a frequent presenter at

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conferences, a public speaker and

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featured in various media platforms.

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And today she claims she's been on the

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Beyond Jaws podcast.

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And with that, Lo,

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welcome to the pinnacle.

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We can start it.

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It looks like and one more thing.

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Lord, look, Lo did her PhD at Rhodes

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University, which is my alma mater.

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I did my PhD.

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So there you go.

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It's the road connection.

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Old road alumni, alumni

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stick together, right?

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Yeah, exactly.

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Exactly.

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So so well, so I'm gonna ask you the

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question we ask everybody.

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So how did you first get

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interested in marine science?

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Yeah, so this is a

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long story, but I'm good.

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We have time.

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We got lots of time.

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Okay.

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So as you said, I'm from South Africa,

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but I was born in the middle of South

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Africa in a little mining

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town, which is very depressing.

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Objectively.

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So I grew up there born and bred.

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The ocean was very far removed from my

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life, but I was privileged enough to go

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on summer holidays along the South coast.

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South Africa, which is the garden route

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and you know, people that have

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been there know it's magical.

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So and from when I was three months old

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privileged enough to go to the ocean.

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01:08:03,708 --> 01:08:06,166
So the ocean was always there, but it was

281
01:08:06,166 --> 01:08:08,500
just not in my everyday life.

282
01:08:09,375 --> 01:08:11,833
So after school where I was pretty

283
01:08:11,833 --> 01:08:13,708
average to be fair, right?

284
01:08:14,166 --> 01:08:17,083
I went on a gap year to Scotland and I

285
01:08:17,083 --> 01:08:18,625
came back and my parents are like, okay,

286
01:08:18,625 --> 01:08:19,291
you're going to study.

287
01:08:19,500 --> 01:08:20,291
We don't care what you

288
01:08:20,291 --> 01:08:21,500
study, but you're going to study.

289
01:08:21,541 --> 01:08:26,125
So I enrolled to study journalism at the

290
01:08:26,125 --> 01:08:28,583
University of Pretoria, which is also

291
01:08:28,583 --> 01:08:30,458
very far removed from any ocean.

292
01:08:30,916 --> 01:08:31,125
Right.

293
01:08:32,625 --> 01:08:33,833
So as you can imagine, I

294
01:08:33,833 --> 01:08:34,958
was not having a good time.

295
01:08:35,833 --> 01:08:39,500
I also quite suffered from depression and

296
01:08:39,500 --> 01:08:42,916
social anxiety during that time while

297
01:08:42,916 --> 01:08:44,916
still, but during that time.

298
01:08:45,416 --> 01:08:48,916
And then I dropped out middle of the year

299
01:08:48,916 --> 01:08:51,875
and I was a lost cause, I think, plus my

300
01:08:51,875 --> 01:08:53,000
within your first year.

301
01:08:53,916 --> 01:08:55,500
Yeah, within my first year of journalism,

302
01:08:55,500 --> 01:08:57,500
I was like, yeah, no, it's not working.

303
01:08:58,000 --> 01:08:58,958
I am leaving now.

304
01:08:59,833 --> 01:09:02,583
And then it was a bit of a bit of a

305
01:09:02,583 --> 01:09:04,041
period of I don't know what's happening,

306
01:09:04,041 --> 01:09:05,416
you know, with my life.

307
01:09:05,416 --> 01:09:06,541
I know I like the ocean.

308
01:09:06,541 --> 01:09:07,500
I know like animals.

309
01:09:07,500 --> 01:09:11,000
I know like all these things and then by

310
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:12,708
happenstance, we went to the University

311
01:09:12,708 --> 01:09:14,916
of South Africa, UNISA, which is the

312
01:09:14,958 --> 01:09:16,250
distance learning university.

313
01:09:16,750 --> 01:09:16,958
Right.

314
01:09:17,625 --> 01:09:18,666
So you're never on campus.

315
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:20,166
You sit in your house and you study.

316
01:09:20,916 --> 01:09:22,666
And I went there and this friendly lady

317
01:09:22,666 --> 01:09:24,875
is like, okay, you can do zoology,

318
01:09:24,875 --> 01:09:26,125
environmental science.

319
01:09:26,708 --> 01:09:28,416
You can do a BA or a BSC.

320
01:09:29,083 --> 01:09:29,375
Right.

321
01:09:30,333 --> 01:09:31,708
So BSC is where you have all your

322
01:09:31,708 --> 01:09:32,625
sciencey bits in it.

323
01:09:32,625 --> 01:09:34,041
And the BA is just a little bit of the

324
01:09:34,041 --> 01:09:35,625
softer kind of social side of it.

325
01:09:35,625 --> 01:09:35,833
Right.

326
01:09:36,708 --> 01:09:38,583
And just by I don't know

327
01:09:38,583 --> 01:09:40,166
why I went to BSC route.

328
01:09:41,125 --> 01:09:43,083
And then I went home and

329
01:09:43,083 --> 01:09:44,250
I studied for three years.

330
01:09:44,791 --> 01:09:57,291
And then I moved back to the middle of

331
01:09:57,291 --> 01:09:58,750
South Africa for some reason, right?

332
01:09:59,583 --> 01:10:01,291
So away from the ocean,

333
01:10:01,291 --> 01:10:02,583
which is a rookie mistake.

334
01:10:08,208 --> 01:10:10,708
I went to the mine doing random things.

335
01:10:11,166 --> 01:10:14,000
I moved on to my honors and my dad always

336
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:15,375
said, you know, there's

337
01:10:15,375 --> 01:10:16,583
no money in marine biology.

338
01:10:17,500 --> 01:10:18,333
And he's not wrong.

339
01:10:18,833 --> 01:10:20,083
He's not wrong.

340
01:10:20,500 --> 01:10:21,291
No, not wrong.

341
01:10:21,916 --> 01:10:23,416
You know, and he's from

342
01:10:23,416 --> 01:10:24,291
an engineering background.

343
01:10:24,291 --> 01:10:25,458
So then I went freshwater.

344
01:10:25,875 --> 01:10:26,625
I did my honors and

345
01:10:26,625 --> 01:10:28,333
freshwater ecosystem health.

346
01:10:28,541 --> 01:10:30,416
I did my Masters in freshwater ecosystem

347
01:10:30,416 --> 01:10:33,875
health at the University of Johannesburg.

348
01:10:33,875 --> 01:10:35,041
But it was that Masters

349
01:10:35,041 --> 01:10:36,458
degree that changed everything.

350
01:10:37,125 --> 01:10:39,000
The Masters degree

351
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:40,125
was made out of modules.

352
01:10:40,708 --> 01:10:43,000
And one of the modules took me down for a

353
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:44,333
coastal module down to

354
01:10:44,333 --> 01:10:45,625
Neisner on the south coast.

355
01:10:46,625 --> 01:10:50,000
And we were in the estuary there.

356
01:10:50,166 --> 01:10:52,083
We met this old professor, Professor

357
01:10:52,083 --> 01:10:54,291
Brian Allenson, also from Rhodes.

358
01:10:55,250 --> 01:10:57,583
He was 90 something, right?

359
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:01,291
So he was old and he met us.

360
01:11:01,291 --> 01:11:03,291
He took us our group out on the estuary.

361
01:11:03,583 --> 01:11:04,250
It was raining.

362
01:11:04,541 --> 01:11:05,250
It was cold.

363
01:11:05,541 --> 01:11:06,416
It was miserable.

364
01:11:08,125 --> 01:11:10,583
But I had the time of my life.

365
01:11:11,375 --> 01:11:12,875
It was amazing and

366
01:11:12,875 --> 01:11:13,500
nice and it's beautiful.

367
01:11:13,833 --> 01:11:14,708
It's got these beautiful

368
01:11:14,708 --> 01:11:16,708
heads with the ocean coming in.

369
01:11:16,708 --> 01:11:17,166
It's beautiful.

370
01:11:18,208 --> 01:11:20,958
And we saw the little seahorse in an

371
01:11:20,958 --> 01:11:24,916
aquarium there and Professor Allenson was

372
01:11:24,916 --> 01:11:27,375
talking about how he would want to do

373
01:11:27,375 --> 01:11:28,541
some research in it.

374
01:11:29,166 --> 01:11:31,000
And I was like, oh, interesting,

375
01:11:31,291 --> 01:11:32,500
interesting old man.

376
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:35,250
And I said to him, if you ever get money,

377
01:11:35,250 --> 01:11:36,541
you let me know, right?

378
01:11:37,750 --> 01:11:39,333
But the course came to an end.

379
01:11:39,333 --> 01:11:43,041
We went home and I think the key thing is

380
01:11:43,041 --> 01:11:45,291
that I sent a follow-up email and I said,

381
01:11:45,291 --> 01:11:48,458
hey man, do you have some money?

382
01:11:49,083 --> 01:11:50,750
And then it all came together.

383
01:11:51,666 --> 01:11:55,666
We got some money from local residents.

384
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:57,958
Neisner is known for very rich

385
01:11:57,958 --> 01:12:00,416
people who had too much money.

386
01:12:00,458 --> 01:12:02,375
And then I got some funding because

387
01:12:02,375 --> 01:12:04,291
again, I wasn't a scholarship kid, right?

388
01:12:04,291 --> 01:12:05,166
My marks were never good

389
01:12:05,166 --> 01:12:06,041
enough for scholarship.

390
01:12:07,166 --> 01:12:10,458
A lot of us can relate to that.

391
01:12:10,791 --> 01:12:16,958
So we got money from the community.

392
01:12:17,375 --> 01:12:18,500
I moved down to Neisner.

393
01:12:19,458 --> 01:12:21,083
I enrolled in Rhodes University.

394
01:12:21,458 --> 01:12:23,041
Prof Brian Allenson was already retired,

395
01:12:23,500 --> 01:12:24,416
but you know, he

396
01:12:24,416 --> 01:12:25,500
would see was from there.

397
01:12:25,875 --> 01:12:28,291
And then I got a brilliant co-supervisor

398
01:12:28,291 --> 01:12:29,750
professor, Allen Hudson,

399
01:12:29,750 --> 01:12:31,291
who was still at Rhodes.

400
01:12:56,250 --> 01:12:57,375
And everyone did work in Missouri and he

401
01:12:57,375 --> 01:12:57,791
was chief director in the early stages of Inside the

402
01:12:57,791 --> 01:12:57,833
beach, trying to make sure you have the best
begins, right, within Sweeney learning.

403
01:12:57,833 --> 01:13:00,416
What were the biggest challenges when you

404
01:13:00,416 --> 01:13:01,875
started that that PhD

405
01:13:01,875 --> 01:13:03,791
going into the marine park

406
01:13:03,791 --> 01:13:04,625
cuz he did like the

407
01:13:04,625 --> 01:13:05,833
honors and freshwater.

408
01:13:06,458 --> 01:13:08,708
You had the interest there and you had

409
01:13:08,708 --> 01:13:10,750
the basics of science, like doing as like

410
01:13:10,750 --> 01:13:12,291
as aology or science degree.

411
01:13:19,583 --> 01:13:21,291
knowledge that you had to learn?

412
01:13:21,750 --> 01:13:22,750
It's catching up.

413
01:13:23,625 --> 01:13:25,416
And I feel like the

414
01:13:25,416 --> 01:13:27,000
ocean is just so dynamic

415
01:13:28,083 --> 01:13:30,583
and there's just so much diversity in it.

416
01:13:31,333 --> 01:13:32,500
And with a PhD, you

417
01:13:32,500 --> 01:13:33,541
do a deep dive, right?

418
01:13:34,208 --> 01:13:35,708
So I just needed to

419
01:13:35,708 --> 01:13:38,083
teach myself so many things.

420
01:13:38,291 --> 01:13:39,791
And it's funny you say catch up

421
01:13:39,916 --> 01:13:40,708
because I feel like my

422
01:13:40,708 --> 01:13:42,125
whole life I'm catching up.

423
01:13:42,375 --> 01:13:43,375
I'm running and running and

424
01:13:43,375 --> 01:13:45,000
running and running to catch up

425
01:13:45,500 --> 01:13:46,458
because I always felt

426
01:13:46,458 --> 01:13:47,666
I was a little behind.

427
01:13:47,666 --> 01:13:49,291
I started my PhD quite late.

428
01:13:49,625 --> 01:13:50,541
I worked in between,

429
01:13:51,333 --> 01:13:53,041
it wasn't a you pitch up

430
01:13:53,041 --> 01:13:53,791
and you study, study,

431
01:13:53,791 --> 01:13:55,375
study and you've got a PhD.

432
01:13:55,708 --> 01:13:57,583
It was always late.

433
01:13:58,041 --> 01:14:00,416
So I'm always rushing to catch up.

434
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:02,208
And just working in the ocean,

435
01:14:02,583 --> 01:14:04,291
getting a skipper's license, diving.

436
01:14:05,375 --> 01:14:08,458
I did my open water like in 2004-ish

437
01:14:09,500 --> 01:14:11,791
and I did like a dive a year.

438
01:14:12,458 --> 01:14:13,458
But then suddenly in

439
01:14:13,458 --> 01:14:14,875
2014, I got to Neisner.

440
01:14:15,166 --> 01:14:17,708
I dusted my little regulator off.

441
01:14:18,041 --> 01:14:20,000
And then I got into the history alone

442
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:20,875
and I just kind of

443
01:14:20,875 --> 01:14:23,041
gave myself a refresher,

444
01:14:23,416 --> 01:14:24,333
which I wouldn't

445
01:14:24,333 --> 01:14:26,250
suggest to masses of people

446
01:14:26,250 --> 01:14:27,583
because that's how you die.

447
01:14:28,875 --> 01:14:29,000
(laughing)

448
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:30,916
But it worked out.

449
01:14:31,458 --> 01:14:32,208
It worked out.

450
01:14:32,833 --> 01:14:34,416
And I figured out how to dive again.

451
01:14:34,666 --> 01:14:35,250
To be fair, it was

452
01:14:35,250 --> 01:14:36,333
like five meters of water.

453
01:14:36,541 --> 01:14:36,958
It's fine.

454
01:14:37,166 --> 01:14:38,583
You can stand up again.

455
01:14:38,583 --> 01:14:38,916
It's cool.

456
01:14:40,416 --> 01:14:40,625
Yeah.

457
01:14:40,833 --> 01:14:42,500
So just all that.

458
01:14:42,541 --> 01:14:45,333
And it was relatively lonely.

459
01:14:45,750 --> 01:14:46,625
So as someone with

460
01:14:46,625 --> 01:14:48,208
social anxiety that works,

461
01:14:48,916 --> 01:14:51,083
but professionally you're isolated also,

462
01:14:51,708 --> 01:14:53,166
because you're not at a campus.

463
01:14:53,625 --> 01:14:54,833
You don't see your lectures.

464
01:14:56,250 --> 01:14:57,541
Prof. Allenson was amazing

465
01:14:57,541 --> 01:14:59,041
because he was like old school.

466
01:14:59,666 --> 01:15:01,291
So he taught you the

467
01:15:01,291 --> 01:15:04,166
value of taking time,

468
01:15:04,166 --> 01:15:06,166
taking care when we did

469
01:15:06,166 --> 01:15:08,000
water quality analysis, right?

470
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:08,833
And it was still like

471
01:15:08,833 --> 01:15:10,541
the old school method.

472
01:15:11,541 --> 01:15:12,750
And he, yeah, I mean, not that I can

473
01:15:12,750 --> 01:15:13,750
remember anything now,

474
01:15:13,750 --> 01:15:15,583
but like the old school method, you know?

475
01:15:16,333 --> 01:15:17,250
How to measure like

476
01:15:17,250 --> 01:15:18,500
nitrates and phosphates

477
01:15:18,500 --> 01:15:20,125
and things like that and stuff.

478
01:15:20,958 --> 01:15:22,833
And he started from scratch.

479
01:15:23,500 --> 01:15:24,666
If he pulled out a sensor,

480
01:15:24,666 --> 01:15:25,541
he would start

481
01:15:25,541 --> 01:15:27,583
describing to you how it works,

482
01:15:27,875 --> 01:15:28,666
point by point.

483
01:15:29,208 --> 01:15:30,333
So valuable.

484
01:15:30,333 --> 01:15:33,500
So it's not, yeah, it's, but, you know,

485
01:15:33,958 --> 01:15:36,166
it was slow going a little bit alone,

486
01:15:36,958 --> 01:15:38,541
a lot of trying to do it

487
01:15:38,541 --> 01:15:40,250
yourself and figuring it out.

488
01:15:42,083 --> 01:15:43,416
But yeah, having someone

489
01:15:43,416 --> 01:15:45,166
like that teach you these things

490
01:15:45,958 --> 01:15:46,833
is amazing.

491
01:15:48,125 --> 01:15:51,000
I got to say as a PR plug,

492
01:15:51,208 --> 01:15:52,875
that Nysna area in that garden route,

493
01:15:53,208 --> 01:15:54,250
if people listen to show,

494
01:15:54,250 --> 01:15:55,375
if you ever go to South Africa,

495
01:15:55,791 --> 01:15:57,083
take the time to drive from

496
01:15:57,083 --> 01:15:59,291
Cape Town up to Port Elizabeth

497
01:15:59,500 --> 01:16:00,791
and just take some days.

498
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:02,625
That's just a beautiful area.

499
01:16:02,625 --> 01:16:03,875
I used to drive it all the time.

500
01:16:03,875 --> 01:16:05,041
It was just, it was just,

501
01:16:05,041 --> 01:16:06,458
it's an amazing area there.

502
01:16:06,458 --> 01:16:08,000
And so you actually kind of

503
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:09,208
landed in a really nice area

504
01:16:09,208 --> 01:16:10,041
if you had to be.

505
01:16:10,541 --> 01:16:11,791
I mean, it could be worse, right?

506
01:16:12,458 --> 01:16:14,416
Yeah. I mean, it could be up in

507
01:16:14,416 --> 01:16:15,666
Johannesburg for some place.

508
01:16:16,458 --> 01:16:16,666
Yeah.

509
01:16:17,083 --> 01:16:17,291
Yeah.

510
01:16:17,875 --> 01:16:18,916
But it was interesting.

511
01:16:18,916 --> 01:16:22,125
And I think, you know, people always say,

512
01:16:22,416 --> 01:16:23,000
it doesn't matter

513
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:24,083
where you live, you know,

514
01:16:24,083 --> 01:16:25,416
you make the best of it or whatever.

515
01:16:25,916 --> 01:16:26,916
But I think, and I think

516
01:16:26,916 --> 01:16:28,000
many people in the ocean,

517
01:16:28,791 --> 01:16:29,791
you know, sciences and the

518
01:16:29,791 --> 01:16:30,875
ocean world can appreciate.

519
01:16:31,083 --> 01:16:32,958
Yeah, that might be so, but

520
01:16:32,958 --> 01:16:34,458
ocean people require an ocean.

521
01:16:34,958 --> 01:16:35,166
Yeah.

522
01:16:35,833 --> 01:16:38,166
So, you know, once you're

523
01:16:38,166 --> 01:16:39,208
there, then you're like, okay.

524
01:16:39,750 --> 01:16:40,958
So I got to ask it as a side

525
01:16:40,958 --> 01:16:42,166
question, as an inside question.

526
01:16:42,166 --> 01:16:43,083
Do you ever, do you ever see

527
01:16:43,083 --> 01:16:44,625
any of the, the, the infamous

528
01:16:44,750 --> 01:16:46,083
Nysna elephants when you were there?

529
01:16:47,041 --> 01:16:48,916
No, no, but this is

530
01:16:48,916 --> 01:16:50,166
now a side tangent thing.

531
01:16:50,625 --> 01:16:50,833
Totally.

532
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:53,000
Because Sandparks is

533
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:54,083
doing research on this,

534
01:16:54,458 --> 01:16:56,000
this Nysna elephants, but

535
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:57,750
fun fact, it's not elephants.

536
01:16:57,958 --> 01:16:58,375
It's elephant.

537
01:16:59,250 --> 01:17:01,333
And they put out, it's

538
01:17:01,333 --> 01:17:03,333
just one and a female shame.

539
01:17:03,916 --> 01:17:05,875
And they put out action cameras, like

540
01:17:05,875 --> 01:17:07,125
cameras to like motion

541
01:17:07,250 --> 01:17:10,041
sensor cameras and they captured this one

542
01:17:10,041 --> 01:17:11,083
little elephant that

543
01:17:11,083 --> 01:17:13,166
was walking around alone,

544
01:17:13,666 --> 01:17:14,875
playing with these like,

545
01:17:14,875 --> 01:17:17,458
like forestry equipment.

546
01:17:18,500 --> 01:17:20,583
And this lady was giving this

547
01:17:20,583 --> 01:17:21,541
presentation and it was

548
01:17:21,541 --> 01:17:23,125
this at his presentation that

549
01:17:23,125 --> 01:17:26,625
I was this lone Nysna

550
01:17:26,625 --> 01:17:28,041
elephant walking around.

551
01:17:29,000 --> 01:17:30,708
There used to be, there used to be back

552
01:17:30,708 --> 01:17:31,875
in the day when I was there, there used

553
01:17:31,875 --> 01:17:34,125
to be three around, at least.

554
01:17:34,125 --> 01:17:34,791
And they were, they

555
01:17:34,791 --> 01:17:35,625
used to talk about them.

556
01:17:35,666 --> 01:17:37,000
They're legendary to supposedly see

557
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:39,291
they're like, they're a local endemic

558
01:17:39,291 --> 01:17:40,708
species, a subspecies.

559
01:17:40,708 --> 01:17:43,166
Yeah, species, I think is a big word.

560
01:17:43,166 --> 01:17:44,250
Like a sub? Yeah.

561
01:17:44,250 --> 01:17:45,541
But they're separate.

562
01:17:46,125 --> 01:17:47,000
They're separate. Yeah.

563
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:48,666
It's kind of a, yeah.

564
01:17:48,666 --> 01:17:49,833
And they live, I mean, it's a totally

565
01:17:49,833 --> 01:17:51,333
different environment, right?

566
01:17:51,791 --> 01:17:52,875
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

567
01:17:52,875 --> 01:17:54,625
There's all photos of many of them

568
01:17:54,625 --> 01:17:56,458
walking around, but I think they just get

569
01:17:56,458 --> 01:17:57,416
squeezed out, right?

570
01:17:57,958 --> 01:17:59,125
Yeah. If you're listening to the episode,

571
01:17:59,125 --> 01:18:01,291
go, go, Google up the Nysna elephant.

572
01:18:01,291 --> 01:18:02,875
It's kind of an interesting story, but

573
01:18:02,875 --> 01:18:04,250
yeah, I didn't know they're down to one.

574
01:18:04,333 --> 01:18:05,625
There was like three and it was like a

575
01:18:05,625 --> 01:18:07,708
big, it was a big, I never saw them, but

576
01:18:07,708 --> 01:18:09,250
it was like a big deal if you, if

577
01:18:09,250 --> 01:18:11,000
somebody, if you encountered them down in

578
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:12,041
that area and stuff, but

579
01:18:12,041 --> 01:18:12,875
it's kind of a, kind of.

580
01:18:12,875 --> 01:18:13,833
But I wasn't lucky enough.

581
01:18:14,291 --> 01:18:15,250
No, especially.

582
01:18:15,500 --> 01:18:17,041
Well, it wasn't in the estuary soaps.

583
01:18:17,791 --> 01:18:18,000
Yeah.

584
01:18:20,333 --> 01:18:21,458
That's their problem.

585
01:18:21,791 --> 01:18:22,291
Yeah, that's their problem.

586
01:18:22,333 --> 01:18:27,000
So you're working in the estuary down

587
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:32,083
there in Nysna and you're working on the

588
01:18:32,083 --> 01:18:34,375
the pipefish, right?

589
01:18:34,916 --> 01:18:35,666
No, the seahorse.

590
01:18:35,666 --> 01:18:36,791
The seahorse. Okay.

591
01:18:36,833 --> 01:18:37,833
The Nysna seahorse.

592
01:18:37,833 --> 01:18:38,458
The seahorse. Okay.

593
01:18:38,458 --> 01:18:40,041
And actually you can, why don't you give

594
01:18:40,041 --> 01:18:41,625
the scientific names of those two species

595
01:18:41,625 --> 01:18:42,791
that I couldn't pronounce earlier?

596
01:18:43,458 --> 01:18:50,000
Okay.

597
01:19:03,333 --> 01:19:05,000
This one, I'm surprised, Dave, that you

598
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:06,291
weren't able to, I always have trouble

599
01:19:06,291 --> 01:19:07,875
once he says, I just kind of tune out.

600
01:19:07,875 --> 01:19:09,375
I'm like, I don't know who that is. Like,

601
01:19:09,708 --> 01:19:11,250
well, then when this one, he couldn't

602
01:19:11,250 --> 01:19:12,375
figure it out. I'm surprised.

603
01:19:12,625 --> 01:19:14,791
They got my attention. I wasn't sure. I

604
01:19:14,791 --> 01:19:15,583
probably could have got through the

605
01:19:15,583 --> 01:19:18,291
hippocampus now, but the other one, the

606
01:19:18,291 --> 01:19:21,000
pipe, uh, pipe horse fish.

607
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:21,250
Yeah.

608
01:19:21,833 --> 01:19:23,166
That one I probably couldn't have done. I

609
01:19:23,166 --> 01:19:24,958
couldn't have done. I probably could have

610
01:19:24,958 --> 01:19:28,708
got that one done. And I, so I, I'm not,

611
01:19:28,708 --> 01:19:30,125
I'm pretty shameless. And if I mangled

612
01:19:30,125 --> 01:19:30,875
the name, I mangled

613
01:19:30,875 --> 01:19:31,750
the name. I don't know.

614
01:19:31,875 --> 01:19:32,291
Yeah. You got to try it.

615
01:19:32,333 --> 01:19:35,250
I got to give it a shot. So, so what, so

616
01:19:35,250 --> 01:19:36,625
I got, so I have to ask you, what's the,

617
01:19:36,625 --> 01:19:37,791
what's the derivation of the

618
01:19:37,791 --> 01:19:39,625
species name for those two?

619
01:19:40,208 --> 01:19:42,625
Uh, what the reasoning behind it? Yeah.

620
01:19:43,333 --> 01:19:47,291
Yeah. What, what's, you know, um, so the

621
01:19:47,291 --> 01:19:49,416
taxonomist here, so if it's wrong, just

622
01:19:49,416 --> 01:19:50,625
blame the taxonomist always.

623
01:19:50,625 --> 01:19:50,833
Sure.

624
01:19:51,333 --> 01:19:56,041
And he's like the signated taxonomist in

625
01:19:56,041 --> 01:19:59,291
the world. Right. Um, so he becomes this

626
01:19:59,291 --> 01:20:01,458
gnarly. That was an interesting story

627
01:20:01,458 --> 01:20:03,750
because we were people kind of got to

628
01:20:03,750 --> 01:20:05,500
know me as the signated person in South

629
01:20:05,500 --> 01:20:10,916
Africa. Um, well, anyway. Um, so we went

630
01:20:10,916 --> 01:20:12,958
up to Sudwana to try and look for this

631
01:20:12,958 --> 01:20:14,416
pipe horse because someone sent me a

632
01:20:14,416 --> 01:20:16,000
photo for of this pipe horse. Right.

633
01:20:16,625 --> 01:20:18,458
Um, which wasn't that big a deal. Okay.

634
01:20:18,458 --> 01:20:20,166
Yeah. There's always this many new

635
01:20:20,166 --> 01:20:21,625
species of pipe horses. That's cool.

636
01:20:21,625 --> 01:20:24,416
Whatever. And then we got there and a

637
01:20:24,416 --> 01:20:26,958
young dive instructor, um, showed us a

638
01:20:26,958 --> 01:20:29,291
photo of a tiny, tiny little seahorse

639
01:20:29,291 --> 01:20:30,375
that looked very

640
01:20:30,375 --> 01:20:31,750
suspiciously like a pygmy.

641
01:20:32,375 --> 01:20:34,583
And we were like, yeah, nah, cause

642
01:20:34,583 --> 01:20:37,625
pygmies don't live in the Indian ocean or

643
01:20:37,625 --> 01:20:39,166
in Africa. Right? So we were like, nah,

644
01:20:39,375 --> 01:20:41,791
man. Um, but we looked at it and it was a

645
01:20:41,791 --> 01:20:44,583
pygmy. Um, and then later, almost a year

646
01:20:44,583 --> 01:20:46,291
later, um, I went to, uh,

647
01:20:46,333 --> 01:20:48,666
with Richard Smith who did his PhD on

648
01:20:48,666 --> 01:20:51,333
pygmy seahorses and we went to collect,

649
01:20:51,333 --> 01:20:53,666
uh, some specimens to see, you know, if

650
01:20:53,666 --> 01:20:56,250
we can describe it. Um, and the name

651
01:20:56,250 --> 01:20:58,166
comes from that dive instructor. Her

652
01:20:58,166 --> 01:21:00,875
second name was Nalu. Yes. Okay.

653
01:21:00,875 --> 01:21:04,375
And Nalu, um, her surname. So that's

654
01:21:04,375 --> 01:21:05,833
where that come from. I also was like an

655
01:21:05,833 --> 01:21:08,625
ode to her for finding. Yeah. That's

656
01:21:08,625 --> 01:21:10,500
nice. Um, because that was a big

657
01:21:10,500 --> 01:21:12,125
discovery. That was the first pygmy

658
01:21:12,125 --> 01:21:13,625
seahorse in the Indian

659
01:21:13,625 --> 01:21:15,291
ocean in African continent.

660
01:21:15,333 --> 01:21:18,125
Yeah. Um, you know, that was quite big.

661
01:21:18,125 --> 01:21:19,833
And then the pypors, we wanted to give

662
01:21:19,833 --> 01:21:23,916
kind of a Zulu name because it's on the

663
01:21:23,916 --> 01:21:25,583
East coast of South Africa in Brazil and

664
01:21:25,583 --> 01:21:29,625
it kind of, um, refers to like a chief,

665
01:21:29,625 --> 01:21:33,666
like a chief kind of person. And the

666
01:21:33,666 --> 01:21:34,708
little pipe horse has got a

667
01:21:34,708 --> 01:21:36,250
little crown bumpy thingy.

668
01:21:37,333 --> 01:21:38,625
Nice. So it looks like a crown. Yeah.

669
01:21:38,625 --> 01:21:40,333
Graham will give the scientific terms,

670
01:21:40,583 --> 01:21:41,583
but a little bumpy thing.

671
01:21:41,583 --> 01:21:43,625
The bumpy thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That

672
01:21:43,625 --> 01:21:46,666
thing. Um, so it kind of was apt, I

673
01:21:46,666 --> 01:21:49,000
think, to kind of bring that in. Yeah.

674
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:50,458
Well, I think it's interesting because I,

675
01:21:50,458 --> 01:21:52,208
I didn't mean to, I didn't want to, I

676
01:21:52,208 --> 01:21:53,541
think it's kind of interesting, but for

677
01:21:53,541 --> 01:21:54,333
people listening to it, they want to get

678
01:21:54,333 --> 01:21:55,666
too off in the weeds. But I think it's

679
01:21:55,666 --> 01:21:56,791
fascinating because South Africa, I

680
01:21:56,791 --> 01:21:57,875
always talk about the sharks and rays

681
01:21:57,875 --> 01:22:00,333
there, but it's just such a, there's, to

682
01:22:00,333 --> 01:22:01,958
this day, there's things you can discover

683
01:22:01,958 --> 01:22:03,791
like these, these pygmy

684
01:22:03,791 --> 01:22:05,291
seahorses, pipefish, new fish.

685
01:22:05,750 --> 01:22:07,625
New fish species. You can, you can still

686
01:22:07,625 --> 01:22:09,708
find in there. If you're, if you know

687
01:22:09,708 --> 01:22:10,750
what you're looking for, you're looking

688
01:22:10,750 --> 01:22:12,500
around for it. And this was all during

689
01:22:12,500 --> 01:22:14,166
your PhD, during your PhD.

690
01:22:14,375 --> 01:22:17,791
It was, it was kind of mangled in. So I

691
01:22:17,791 --> 01:22:20,500
started my PhD 2014 while working for the

692
01:22:20,500 --> 01:22:23,041
basin project. So my aim with the basin,

693
01:22:23,666 --> 01:22:25,166
Neissner basin project was to take it

694
01:22:25,166 --> 01:22:29,500
from a 90 year old professor organization

695
01:22:29,500 --> 01:22:32,291
to a community research organization.

696
01:22:32,333 --> 01:22:35,208
Right. Yeah. So I finished my PhD 2018

697
01:22:35,208 --> 01:22:38,041
ish. And then I worked as director for

698
01:22:38,041 --> 01:22:40,041
the, for the basin project. So we

699
01:22:40,041 --> 01:22:42,666
dabbled, we dabbled in many, many things

700
01:22:42,666 --> 01:22:45,416
we collaborated with many, many people.

701
01:22:46,083 --> 01:22:47,708
And whenever there was a side gig,

702
01:22:48,291 --> 01:22:49,833
because that's one of the things I love

703
01:22:49,833 --> 01:22:51,500
in my life as a side gig.

704
01:22:51,708 --> 01:22:56,833
I go and do the side gig. Yeah, that is

705
01:22:56,833 --> 01:22:58,791
spoken just like a marine scientist.

706
01:22:59,416 --> 01:23:00,250
Yeah. Yeah. Oh,

707
01:23:00,250 --> 01:23:01,291
there's this project here.

708
01:23:01,333 --> 01:23:02,333
Oh, there's this thing.

709
01:23:02,583 --> 01:23:04,166
We're like protocolies. If there's

710
01:23:04,166 --> 01:23:05,750
something happening, we're like, okay,

711
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:09,166
okay, we're going. So, you know, and

712
01:23:09,166 --> 01:23:10,833
people send me photos all the time. And

713
01:23:10,833 --> 01:23:12,666
then I'm like, okay, Dave, I think we're

714
01:23:12,666 --> 01:23:14,125
similar, because people

715
01:23:14,125 --> 01:23:15,250
send you photos a lot.

716
01:23:15,541 --> 01:23:16,000
Oh, all the time.

717
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:18,000
Shark photos, date.

718
01:23:18,125 --> 01:23:18,333
Sorry.

719
01:23:18,333 --> 01:23:18,750
Oh, yeah.

720
01:23:19,125 --> 01:23:19,333
Yeah.

721
01:23:19,750 --> 01:23:19,958
Yeah.

722
01:23:20,541 --> 01:23:22,041
So that's what happened. People sent me

723
01:23:22,041 --> 01:23:23,750
photos and then we made it happen. We

724
01:23:23,750 --> 01:23:24,833
went to have a look.

725
01:23:24,833 --> 01:23:26,958
So is this like people with, within

726
01:23:26,958 --> 01:23:28,208
Neissner, like that

727
01:23:28,208 --> 01:23:29,250
we're sending you photos?

728
01:23:29,833 --> 01:23:30,000
No.

729
01:23:30,333 --> 01:23:31,250
It's just because it's

730
01:23:31,250 --> 01:23:33,541
like just random people. Yeah.

731
01:23:33,541 --> 01:23:35,291
And how did they get to know that you

732
01:23:35,291 --> 01:23:38,958
were like the, the, the sort of so-called

733
01:23:38,958 --> 01:23:41,375
the expert at the time for doing a PhD on

734
01:23:41,375 --> 01:23:43,833
these types of seahorses and, and

735
01:23:43,833 --> 01:23:45,000
pipefish and so forth.

736
01:23:46,333 --> 01:23:48,416
Like, was it just through academics?

737
01:23:48,750 --> 01:23:50,250
Like, through the institutions?

738
01:23:50,958 --> 01:23:52,416
I mean, I think the academics didn't

739
01:23:52,416 --> 01:23:54,125
don't know. Academics don't know about

740
01:23:54,125 --> 01:23:55,958
me. They were like,

741
01:23:55,958 --> 01:23:57,041
who's this random person?

742
01:23:57,333 --> 01:24:00,250
No, no, I think, okay. So people love

743
01:24:00,250 --> 01:24:02,666
seahorses because what's not to love for

744
01:24:02,666 --> 01:24:04,833
sure. The Neissner seahorse is South

745
01:24:04,833 --> 01:24:06,583
Africa's only endemic seahorse. It's

746
01:24:06,583 --> 01:24:08,708
endangered for a long time.

747
01:24:08,708 --> 01:24:10,791
It was the only endangered seahorse till

748
01:24:10,791 --> 01:24:13,291
the stupid Australians came on the, you

749
01:24:13,291 --> 01:24:15,083
know, and got their own

750
01:24:15,083 --> 01:24:16,500
endangered one, whatever.

751
01:24:17,333 --> 01:24:19,166
It's kind of like, I always

752
01:24:19,166 --> 01:24:20,625
follow our lead, you know?

753
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:21,625
Yeah. Yeah.

754
01:24:21,625 --> 01:24:22,250
That's maybe a

755
01:24:22,250 --> 01:24:23,291
different, different thing.

756
01:24:23,333 --> 01:24:25,916
It's a different podcast. Special

757
01:24:25,916 --> 01:24:29,250
seahorse. Special seahorse. And we put a

758
01:24:29,250 --> 01:24:30,083
lot of effort into

759
01:24:30,083 --> 01:24:31,291
promoting that seahorse.

760
01:24:32,333 --> 01:24:35,708
There's a couple of like, very popular

761
01:24:35,708 --> 01:24:38,958
South African shows. One is 50-50. I

762
01:24:38,958 --> 01:24:40,291
don't know. Yep. I don't know if there's

763
01:24:40,291 --> 01:24:42,166
South African audiences. Anyway, 50-50

764
01:24:42,166 --> 01:24:43,083
and the other one is

765
01:24:43,083 --> 01:24:44,291
called Blanche. Yep. Okay.

766
01:24:44,333 --> 01:24:46,875
And we, they came to look at the Neissner

767
01:24:46,875 --> 01:24:48,208
seahorse and the work we were doing.

768
01:24:48,833 --> 01:24:51,416
Neissner is, it's, I mean, there's a lot

769
01:24:51,416 --> 01:24:52,166
of kind of wealthy

770
01:24:52,166 --> 01:24:53,666
people living there. Right.

771
01:24:55,083 --> 01:24:57,333
Yeah, we, we shared far and wide. So I

772
01:24:57,333 --> 01:24:59,708
think people just, just got, got into,

773
01:24:59,916 --> 01:25:01,625
yeah. And then what also happens is

774
01:25:01,625 --> 01:25:03,500
people reach out to Project Seahorse,

775
01:25:04,208 --> 01:25:06,875
which is like the seahorse people. Yeah.

776
01:25:06,875 --> 01:25:07,500
They're Canadian, by the

777
01:25:07,500 --> 01:25:08,291
way, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

778
01:25:08,333 --> 01:25:12,208
Yeah. Yeah. In the world. And then they

779
01:25:12,208 --> 01:25:15,416
kind of link us up also. Yeah. I think

780
01:25:15,416 --> 01:25:17,541
that's such an important strategy to,

781
01:25:17,541 --> 01:25:20,500
right? To get that out there. You know,

782
01:25:20,500 --> 01:25:22,833
like seahorses do well with the public.

783
01:25:22,833 --> 01:25:24,958
They become iconic species. You have this

784
01:25:24,958 --> 01:25:26,291
endemic species here.

785
01:25:27,333 --> 01:25:29,208
You're in an area where there's, you

786
01:25:29,208 --> 01:25:32,333
know, the money is, is, is, is there. And

787
01:25:32,333 --> 01:25:34,250
so people will, will, you know, they kind

788
01:25:34,250 --> 01:25:35,791
of take pride in it, right? It's kind of

789
01:25:35,791 --> 01:25:36,625
like, have you ever heard of the

790
01:25:36,625 --> 01:25:38,500
organization Rare? Yeah.

791
01:25:38,750 --> 01:25:40,125
They do, they, and they do the same

792
01:25:40,125 --> 01:25:41,375
thing. They take like one species,

793
01:25:41,583 --> 01:25:43,250
usually in an island community or small

794
01:25:43,250 --> 01:25:44,500
community and they're like, this is the

795
01:25:44,500 --> 01:25:46,458
pride of the community. Let's, let's make

796
01:25:46,458 --> 01:25:48,500
this the pride. And then they get

797
01:25:48,500 --> 01:25:50,583
everybody, you know, to, to protect it

798
01:25:50,583 --> 01:25:51,625
and, and so forth. And

799
01:25:51,625 --> 01:25:53,208
it makes it a lot easier.

800
01:25:53,333 --> 01:25:53,708
And so, you know, you can do more funding

801
01:25:53,708 --> 01:25:55,500
for research. You find out more about it.

802
01:25:55,500 --> 01:25:57,958
You can do more policy work and, and

803
01:25:57,958 --> 01:25:59,583
that. So I think that's, that's great

804
01:25:59,583 --> 01:26:01,958
that you get that out there. It just goes

805
01:26:01,958 --> 01:26:03,750
to show how important, you know, I'm the,

806
01:26:03,750 --> 01:26:05,666
I'm the comms guy. So it's important to

807
01:26:05,666 --> 01:26:07,000
get the communication out there.

808
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:09,083
I think a game changer really. Yeah.

809
01:26:09,500 --> 01:26:11,000
Yeah. And I think it's a game changer to

810
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:12,958
make it easy for people to understand.

811
01:26:13,583 --> 01:26:15,583
Sometimes scientists can just be so far

812
01:26:15,583 --> 01:26:17,083
removed, even when they think they're not

813
01:26:17,083 --> 01:26:18,708
far removed. They're far removed. Yeah.

814
01:26:19,333 --> 01:26:22,583
Yeah. So I really love the idea of, you

815
01:26:22,583 --> 01:26:24,208
know, and we took people out on the, it's

816
01:26:24,208 --> 01:26:26,666
just what I really love. So we had little

817
01:26:26,666 --> 01:26:29,458
rocky shore outings with like people and

818
01:26:29,458 --> 01:26:31,250
then you just showed them animals on the

819
01:26:31,250 --> 01:26:33,208
rocky shore, you know, we'd be like this

820
01:26:33,208 --> 01:26:34,958
is a sea stock. This is how it eats. This

821
01:26:34,958 --> 01:26:37,000
is what it does for, you know, it's daily

822
01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:40,333
life. And people don't realize that until

823
01:26:40,333 --> 01:26:43,333
you show them stuff. And it's like you're

824
01:26:43,333 --> 01:26:43,833
a kid and you're

825
01:26:43,833 --> 01:26:45,291
playing on the rocks. Yeah.

826
01:26:45,333 --> 01:26:49,208
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we know it's it's

827
01:26:49,208 --> 01:26:51,250
I think that's one. That's one thing a

828
01:26:51,250 --> 01:26:52,500
little bit with the social media. I think

829
01:26:52,500 --> 01:26:54,166
the in person stuff is even better with

830
01:26:54,166 --> 01:26:56,250
people that, and you touch it. It's like,

831
01:26:56,250 --> 01:26:58,208
you know, in the science community, like

832
01:26:58,208 --> 01:27:00,125
we'll get real excited talking about

833
01:27:00,125 --> 01:27:01,708
something amongst ourselves. And we're

834
01:27:01,708 --> 01:27:03,458
like, you're really excited. But somebody

835
01:27:03,458 --> 01:27:05,333
who doesn't even know anything about it,

836
01:27:05,333 --> 01:27:06,583
we're using all this jargon that they

837
01:27:06,583 --> 01:27:08,291
don't even understand. You're kind of

838
01:27:08,291 --> 01:27:10,041
leaving out the people that you really

839
01:27:10,041 --> 01:27:12,125
want to connect with and convey that

840
01:27:12,125 --> 01:27:15,000
enthusiasm to, you know.

841
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:15,291
And so it's, it's a, it's a

842
01:27:15,333 --> 01:27:15,666
it's a really interesting thing. And I've always liked it, and it's a great time.

843
01:27:15,666 --> 01:27:16,791
And so I think a lot of I think it's

844
01:27:16,791 --> 01:27:18,833
changing now used to be kind of like

845
01:27:18,833 --> 01:27:20,625
people I had growing up when I was a

846
01:27:20,625 --> 01:27:22,625
student, they were very much like

847
01:27:22,625 --> 01:27:26,416
insular. And so like, and so I think, you

848
01:27:26,416 --> 01:27:28,166
know, we kind of started changing, social

849
01:27:28,166 --> 01:27:29,875
media changed the whole landscape. But it

850
01:27:29,875 --> 01:27:31,208
was starting to come around a little more

851
01:27:31,208 --> 01:27:33,458
when you start having these for whatever

852
01:27:33,458 --> 01:27:34,666
you want to call like, whether it's

853
01:27:34,666 --> 01:27:35,958
Discovery Channel or even National

854
01:27:35,958 --> 01:27:38,291
Geographic doing some of these more

855
01:27:38,291 --> 01:27:40,083
outreachy things where you can connect

856
01:27:40,083 --> 01:27:41,916
and talk with somebody. And then you need

857
01:27:41,916 --> 01:27:43,291
to be able to communicate to them in a language that the average person can understand.

858
01:27:43,333 --> 01:27:43,958
language that the

859
01:27:43,958 --> 01:27:45,208
average person can understand.

860
01:27:45,916 --> 01:27:46,000
Right.

861
01:27:46,000 --> 01:27:46,333
You know, because if

862
01:27:46,333 --> 01:27:47,750
you're throwing around the,

863
01:27:48,291 --> 01:27:48,583
throwing around the

864
01:27:48,583 --> 01:27:50,041
scientific name of the seahorse

865
01:27:50,041 --> 01:27:50,958
or something, like, well,

866
01:27:50,958 --> 01:27:52,083
that's great for you and,

867
01:27:52,583 --> 01:27:52,958
Yeah.

868
01:27:52,958 --> 01:27:54,333
But who else really is

869
01:27:54,333 --> 01:27:55,000
gonna know what you're talking

870
01:27:55,000 --> 01:27:55,958
about or why they, why

871
01:27:55,958 --> 01:27:57,041
they, the question is like,

872
01:27:57,041 --> 01:27:58,000
why should they care

873
01:27:58,000 --> 01:27:58,916
about this little seahorse?

874
01:27:59,583 --> 01:27:59,625
Yeah.

875
01:27:59,666 --> 01:27:59,875
Yeah.

876
01:28:00,250 --> 01:28:01,833
I always think I take

877
01:28:01,833 --> 01:28:03,291
quite a minute to understand

878
01:28:03,458 --> 01:28:03,750
something.

879
01:28:04,250 --> 01:28:05,041
So when I explain

880
01:28:05,041 --> 01:28:06,500
something, I explain it so I would

881
01:28:06,541 --> 01:28:07,333
understand it.

882
01:28:07,333 --> 01:28:07,833
Of course.

883
01:28:07,875 --> 01:28:08,125
You know?

884
01:28:08,708 --> 01:28:10,500
Yeah, that's the important part, right?

885
01:28:10,500 --> 01:28:11,791
Make it super clear, yeah.

886
01:28:12,083 --> 01:28:13,041
And exciting, you know?

887
01:28:13,291 --> 01:28:14,416
Yeah. The ocean is exciting.

888
01:28:14,416 --> 01:28:15,583
Yeah. And what I really think is,

889
01:28:16,375 --> 01:28:17,166
and Dave, you can probably

890
01:28:17,208 --> 01:28:19,416
appreciate this from when you started

891
01:28:19,416 --> 01:28:21,000
work, all the ability

892
01:28:21,000 --> 01:28:22,958
we have now to show people what lives

893
01:28:22,958 --> 01:28:24,458
underwater, like the

894
01:28:24,458 --> 01:28:25,583
cameras, the,

895
01:28:25,583 --> 01:28:26,000
Oh, yeah.

896
01:28:26,250 --> 01:28:27,291
The video, the footage.

897
01:28:28,041 --> 01:28:28,416
Oh, my God.

898
01:28:28,416 --> 01:28:29,041
I mean, that wasn't there.

899
01:28:29,583 --> 01:28:29,833
Oh, no.

900
01:28:29,833 --> 01:28:30,125
Now we can show

901
01:28:30,125 --> 01:28:31,333
people, look at this thing.

902
01:28:31,375 --> 01:28:32,041
Oh, no.

903
01:28:32,041 --> 01:28:32,291
Look at this thing.

904
01:28:32,541 --> 01:28:32,750
Yeah.

905
01:28:33,083 --> 01:28:34,875
Well, I, I, I, I tell people

906
01:28:34,875 --> 01:28:36,541
back in the day when I, Paul

907
01:28:36,541 --> 01:28:38,166
Cowley and I would set off to

908
01:28:38,166 --> 01:28:40,041
Namibia and it's a true story.

909
01:28:40,083 --> 01:28:41,125
We literally all we have

910
01:28:41,125 --> 01:28:42,208
is a compass and a map.

911
01:28:42,750 --> 01:28:43,208
That's the only

912
01:28:43,208 --> 01:28:44,625
navigational thing we had.

913
01:28:45,083 --> 01:28:46,291
And that's fun to be fair.

914
01:28:46,583 --> 01:28:46,791
Yeah.

915
01:28:47,375 --> 01:28:47,625
Yeah.

916
01:28:47,958 --> 01:28:49,666
But I mean, how many, how many people

917
01:28:49,666 --> 01:28:50,833
like say in your, in

918
01:28:50,833 --> 01:28:52,166
your age group and younger

919
01:28:52,166 --> 01:28:54,625
would know how to use a compass?

920
01:28:55,125 --> 01:28:56,166
If they literally just gave them a

921
01:28:56,166 --> 01:28:56,958
compass and that's all they

922
01:28:56,958 --> 01:28:57,291
had.

923
01:28:57,291 --> 01:28:58,500
No GPS, no, no

924
01:28:58,500 --> 01:29:00,000
satellite phone, no nothing.

925
01:29:00,666 --> 01:29:02,458
And literally, you know, I, I, I laugh.

926
01:29:02,458 --> 01:29:03,333
I tell the story now because

927
01:29:03,333 --> 01:29:05,291
it's kind of funny, but I tell

928
01:29:05,333 --> 01:29:07,875
like Leonard Campagno and a few people

929
01:29:07,875 --> 01:29:09,041
there, Tom Hacks, like,

930
01:29:09,416 --> 01:29:11,000
we're going to be gone for eight weeks.

931
01:29:11,333 --> 01:29:12,375
And if you don't, if you don't hear from

932
01:29:12,375 --> 01:29:13,541
us in 10, like no phone

933
01:29:13,541 --> 01:29:14,708
call or anything, send

934
01:29:14,708 --> 01:29:16,041
somebody to look for us.

935
01:29:16,458 --> 01:29:19,375
And that'd be like, yeah, yeah.

936
01:29:19,958 --> 01:29:22,333
You know, 10 weeks, 10 weeks is probably

937
01:29:22,333 --> 01:29:23,250
not going to end really

938
01:29:23,375 --> 01:29:25,583
well for us, but if you just come, but,

939
01:29:26,291 --> 01:29:27,458
but that was all, I was all

940
01:29:27,458 --> 01:29:28,416
Find our bodies somewhere.

941
01:29:28,958 --> 01:29:29,958
Yeah, go find our bodies.

942
01:29:29,958 --> 01:29:31,125
What's left of it and stuff.

943
01:29:32,750 --> 01:29:32,958
Yeah.

944
01:29:33,125 --> 01:29:33,333
Yeah.

945
01:29:33,333 --> 01:29:34,000
Phone the parents.

946
01:29:35,416 --> 01:29:35,583
Yeah.

947
01:29:35,750 --> 01:29:37,291
And literally all I do is like, I just

948
01:29:37,291 --> 01:29:38,625
look at a map in Namibia

949
01:29:38,791 --> 01:29:40,291
and say, well, we'll be somewhere along

950
01:29:40,291 --> 01:29:43,291
this 500 kilometer area of the beach.

951
01:29:44,208 --> 01:29:45,416
And be like, that'd be it.

952
01:29:45,416 --> 01:29:46,291
And we'd, and we'd go.

953
01:29:46,500 --> 01:29:47,875
And there's, you know, I mean, I can't

954
01:29:47,875 --> 01:29:49,416
imagine people like getting sort of

955
01:29:49,416 --> 01:29:52,291
your age group and younger, like not

956
01:29:52,291 --> 01:29:54,416
being out of communication with no, no

957
01:29:54,416 --> 01:29:56,625
satellite phone, no camera phone,

958
01:29:57,416 --> 01:29:57,833
nothing, just

959
01:29:57,833 --> 01:29:58,958
literally a compass and a map

960
01:29:58,958 --> 01:30:00,041
for, for two months.

961
01:30:00,625 --> 01:30:01,750
I'm not even out of communication.

962
01:30:01,750 --> 01:30:03,458
When I go to the bathroom, I got my phone

963
01:30:03,458 --> 01:30:04,708
with me all the time.

964
01:30:05,083 --> 01:30:05,333
You have to.

965
01:30:05,583 --> 01:30:06,125
Something like that.

966
01:30:06,208 --> 01:30:08,125
Like it's going anywhere without

967
01:30:08,125 --> 01:30:09,333
communication is ridiculous.

968
01:30:09,500 --> 01:30:10,875
Now it's crazy.

969
01:30:10,958 --> 01:30:14,208
Oh, the sciences are very regulated now,

970
01:30:14,208 --> 01:30:15,208
even in South Africa, you

971
01:30:15,208 --> 01:30:17,083
know, it's very regulated.

972
01:30:17,208 --> 01:30:18,125
What you're allowed to do,

973
01:30:18,125 --> 01:30:19,333
what you're not allowed to do.

974
01:30:19,333 --> 01:30:20,666
I mean, my whole PhD, my

975
01:30:20,666 --> 01:30:22,125
diving was illegal theory.

976
01:30:22,791 --> 01:30:24,958
Yeah, because you need a dive supervisor.

977
01:30:25,125 --> 01:30:25,750
You need this.

978
01:30:25,750 --> 01:30:26,375
You need. Yes.

979
01:30:26,958 --> 01:30:27,625
I mean, yeah.

980
01:30:28,291 --> 01:30:28,500
Yeah.

981
01:30:28,833 --> 01:30:30,375
Here in here, money for that here in

982
01:30:30,375 --> 01:30:31,208
Canada, like you

983
01:30:31,208 --> 01:30:32,541
can't scuba dive for work.

984
01:30:32,875 --> 01:30:34,000
You actually have to have a

985
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:35,625
commercial divers license now.

986
01:30:35,958 --> 01:30:37,416
Because insurance won't cover.

987
01:30:38,041 --> 01:30:40,083
So like we have like our government, so

988
01:30:40,083 --> 01:30:41,583
like environment, Canada and climate

989
01:30:41,666 --> 01:30:43,500
change, that department will have its own

990
01:30:43,500 --> 01:30:45,333
field unit where they are commercially

991
01:30:46,083 --> 01:30:47,375
regulated, like they have their

992
01:30:47,375 --> 01:30:48,125
commercial divers and

993
01:30:48,125 --> 01:30:49,333
they go out with the

994
01:30:49,333 --> 01:30:51,833
poll commercial diving sort of like

995
01:30:51,833 --> 01:30:53,125
equipment and stuff like that.

996
01:30:53,125 --> 01:30:54,500
And you're just like, Oh, where I see

997
01:30:54,500 --> 01:30:56,416
other people, I'll see them online.

998
01:30:56,416 --> 01:30:57,000
Like scuba dive.

999
01:30:57,000 --> 01:30:58,875
Like how, how are you allowed to do this?

1000
01:30:59,083 --> 01:31:00,583
Like what's, what's happening?

1001
01:31:00,916 --> 01:31:01,500
That's not fair.

1002
01:31:01,750 --> 01:31:02,666
Wild West.

1003
01:31:03,250 --> 01:31:06,291
Well, that's when I, when I was coming up

1004
01:31:06,291 --> 01:31:08,041
in the 80s, I'd say this all the time.

1005
01:31:08,041 --> 01:31:09,541
Like it was the Wild West because you,

1006
01:31:09,750 --> 01:31:11,083
even in California, if you thought of

1007
01:31:11,083 --> 01:31:12,875
something like, well, go try it out.

1008
01:31:12,875 --> 01:31:14,125
No, there was no restrictions.

1009
01:31:14,458 --> 01:31:15,750
Like I, if I wanted to go out and catch

1010
01:31:15,750 --> 01:31:17,041
like, you know,

1011
01:31:17,583 --> 01:31:18,708
whatever a bunch of sharks

1012
01:31:18,708 --> 01:31:19,833
or something, big deal,

1013
01:31:19,833 --> 01:31:20,666
just have a fishing license.

1014
01:31:20,875 --> 01:31:22,541
That was it in South Africa.

1015
01:31:22,541 --> 01:31:23,375
It wasn't even that.

1016
01:31:23,375 --> 01:31:26,000
It was just like, I just roll into some

1017
01:31:26,000 --> 01:31:28,583
town somewhere and just as they're asking

1018
01:31:28,708 --> 01:31:30,083
people and whatever sharks we need.

1019
01:31:30,125 --> 01:31:32,000
We, and I won't get into some stories

1020
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:32,833
here because we probably

1021
01:31:32,833 --> 01:31:33,916
get in trouble now, but

1022
01:31:33,916 --> 01:31:39,541
this is how we could go off into the,

1023
01:31:39,541 --> 01:31:40,375
definitely go off

1024
01:31:40,375 --> 01:31:41,333
into the weeds here, but

1025
01:31:41,333 --> 01:31:43,666
yeah, just walk away.

1026
01:31:43,666 --> 01:31:44,541
But there, but there was a

1027
01:31:44,541 --> 01:31:45,750
lot of stuff you would do.

1028
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:48,041
Like you would just, you could, there was

1029
01:31:48,041 --> 01:31:50,375
no, I say there's nobody cared.

1030
01:31:50,666 --> 01:31:51,166
You could literally

1031
01:31:51,166 --> 01:31:52,083
just go do what you want.

1032
01:31:52,083 --> 01:31:53,375
I think in some ways it

1033
01:31:53,375 --> 01:31:54,833
was a lot better to do.

1034
01:31:54,833 --> 01:31:56,000
It was like a little better

1035
01:31:56,000 --> 01:31:57,666
because you could do stuff.

1036
01:31:57,833 --> 01:31:58,666
It wasn't like you had to

1037
01:31:58,666 --> 01:32:00,375
like, just to do anything.

1038
01:32:00,666 --> 01:32:01,791
You had to get some permit.

1039
01:32:01,791 --> 01:32:03,166
You could just, you could do some stuff.

1040
01:32:03,166 --> 01:32:05,583
I think it's, if anything has gotten too

1041
01:32:05,583 --> 01:32:07,458
far the other way now, we're.

1042
01:32:07,458 --> 01:32:09,583
It's a smidge too regulated and the

1043
01:32:09,583 --> 01:32:10,791
problem I, I mean, safety.

1044
01:32:11,041 --> 01:32:11,916
Yeah, I get it.

1045
01:32:11,916 --> 01:32:12,125
Of course.

1046
01:32:12,458 --> 01:32:12,666
Yeah.

1047
01:32:12,750 --> 01:32:13,416
Safe safety.

1048
01:32:13,666 --> 01:32:13,875
Yeah.

1049
01:32:14,333 --> 01:32:16,166
That bugs me a little bit as it removes

1050
01:32:16,166 --> 01:32:17,708
the ability of people

1051
01:32:17,708 --> 01:32:19,166
that is maybe not a big

1052
01:32:19,166 --> 01:32:20,708
organization that doesn't have a million

1053
01:32:20,708 --> 01:32:22,166
dollars to do this work.

1054
01:32:22,166 --> 01:32:23,000
It kind of removes

1055
01:32:23,000 --> 01:32:24,291
them of doing this work.

1056
01:32:24,708 --> 01:32:27,000
Because if I had to go legit, say with

1057
01:32:27,000 --> 01:32:28,250
the diving during my PhD,

1058
01:32:28,583 --> 01:32:29,958
I, we, there was no money.

1059
01:32:30,541 --> 01:32:33,000
I mean, I did a commercial diving course

1060
01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:34,583
and a scientific diving course.

1061
01:32:34,583 --> 01:32:34,916
Yes.

1062
01:32:34,916 --> 01:32:37,125
But I didn't have money to pay a dive

1063
01:32:37,125 --> 01:32:38,125
supervisor to look at.

1064
01:32:38,125 --> 01:32:38,750
You'd almost have it out

1065
01:32:38,750 --> 01:32:39,916
of a team of divers to go.

1066
01:32:40,666 --> 01:32:40,875
Yeah.

1067
01:32:41,166 --> 01:32:41,375
Yeah.

1068
01:32:41,416 --> 01:32:41,625
Yeah.

1069
01:32:41,666 --> 01:32:41,875
Yeah.

1070
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:42,166
Exactly.

1071
01:32:42,541 --> 01:32:43,750
You know, that's what I think what it

1072
01:32:43,750 --> 01:32:44,833
does is, is it takes

1073
01:32:44,833 --> 01:32:47,125
away the, I guess the

1074
01:32:47,125 --> 01:32:49,000
freeness of exploration.

1075
01:32:49,625 --> 01:32:49,833
Yes.

1076
01:32:50,291 --> 01:32:50,541
Right.

1077
01:32:50,541 --> 01:32:52,125
We're at, which I think it defines, you

1078
01:32:52,125 --> 01:32:54,000
know, yeah, which defines a lot of both

1079
01:32:54,083 --> 01:32:54,958
of your careers.

1080
01:32:55,166 --> 01:32:56,583
I feel like, you know, in a way like

1081
01:32:56,583 --> 01:32:57,833
Dave, obviously you're an explorer.

1082
01:32:57,833 --> 01:32:59,416
You, you like to discover things.

1083
01:32:59,416 --> 01:33:00,958
You get into, you know, quote unquote,

1084
01:33:00,958 --> 01:33:02,916
some trouble and then come out of it.

1085
01:33:02,916 --> 01:33:04,708
And then, but, but you do it for the

1086
01:33:04,708 --> 01:33:07,541
exploration part of it too.

1087
01:33:07,791 --> 01:33:09,625
And, and, and low, it looks like like

1088
01:33:09,625 --> 01:33:10,750
this, that seems to be

1089
01:33:10,750 --> 01:33:12,791
the theme so far with your

1090
01:33:12,791 --> 01:33:15,166
career and correct me if I'm wrong, but

1091
01:33:15,166 --> 01:33:17,125
it seems like, you know, let's explore.

1092
01:33:17,125 --> 01:33:18,416
Let's see what I can find.

1093
01:33:18,916 --> 01:33:20,458
Oh, there's something else over here.

1094
01:33:20,458 --> 01:33:22,041
Like you're with a small, you're working

1095
01:33:22,041 --> 01:33:24,000
with a small organization and a nice

1096
01:33:24,041 --> 01:33:24,333
place.

1097
01:33:24,583 --> 01:33:26,208
And then all of a sudden you're getting a

1098
01:33:26,208 --> 01:33:26,500
lot of attention

1099
01:33:26,500 --> 01:33:27,833
because you're finding these

1100
01:33:27,833 --> 01:33:29,541
cool things, you know, and

1101
01:33:29,541 --> 01:33:31,375
it's just by, just by discovery.

1102
01:33:31,375 --> 01:33:33,250
And then by going over to, you know, like

1103
01:33:33,250 --> 01:33:34,916
a, a dive operation and

1104
01:33:34,916 --> 01:33:35,666
be like, Hey, we found

1105
01:33:35,708 --> 01:33:37,083
this potentially this

1106
01:33:37,083 --> 01:33:38,291
really tiny seahorse.

1107
01:33:38,291 --> 01:33:39,500
Oh, there's a pygmy seahorse.

1108
01:33:39,875 --> 01:33:41,125
Now we've discovered that there's pygmy

1109
01:33:41,125 --> 01:33:42,708
seahorses in, in the area.

1110
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:46,333
Were you always like that even as a, as a

1111
01:33:46,333 --> 01:33:47,166
kid, like was the

1112
01:33:47,166 --> 01:33:48,166
exploration, is that the

1113
01:33:48,166 --> 01:33:51,833
part of science that, that drives you to

1114
01:33:51,833 --> 01:33:53,750
really fall in love with science and the

1115
01:33:53,791 --> 01:33:56,125
work that you do is, is like, I know it's

1116
01:33:56,125 --> 01:33:58,708
that's for Dave too, but is that what

1117
01:33:58,750 --> 01:34:00,916
does it for you is to like the, the

1118
01:34:00,916 --> 01:34:02,083
opportunity for

1119
01:34:02,083 --> 01:34:04,000
discovery or the fact that

1120
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:05,041
you're trying to do something, but you're

1121
01:34:05,041 --> 01:34:07,541
out in, in the bush,

1122
01:34:07,541 --> 01:34:08,750
out in the water, like

1123
01:34:08,916 --> 01:34:09,916
going out and doing stuff.

1124
01:34:10,125 --> 01:34:11,500
Is that what makes it for you?

1125
01:34:12,541 --> 01:34:13,208
I think so.

1126
01:34:13,583 --> 01:34:14,208
I think so.

1127
01:34:14,208 --> 01:34:16,583
And you know, as a kid, yeah, you know,

1128
01:34:16,583 --> 01:34:19,208
I, I love looking at tiny things.

1129
01:34:19,208 --> 01:34:21,041
I love seeing things that, you know,

1130
01:34:21,250 --> 01:34:22,416
people might miss or whatever.

1131
01:34:23,041 --> 01:34:24,208
Um, you know, and

1132
01:34:24,208 --> 01:34:26,500
spending time, time with it.

1133
01:34:26,958 --> 01:34:28,083
And I think marine science

1134
01:34:28,083 --> 01:34:31,416
is such a cool gig to do that.

1135
01:34:31,625 --> 01:34:31,833
Yeah.

1136
01:34:31,833 --> 01:34:32,166
Oh yeah.

1137
01:34:32,166 --> 01:34:32,666
I'm for sure.

1138
01:34:32,666 --> 01:34:34,958
Because it's so broad and then you're

1139
01:34:34,958 --> 01:34:36,750
walking like, say in a conference and you

1140
01:34:36,750 --> 01:34:39,500
meet an amphipod guy and you're like,

1141
01:34:39,500 --> 01:34:41,333
amphipods are the best shit ever.

1142
01:34:41,333 --> 01:34:42,125
Have you seen these things

1143
01:34:42,125 --> 01:34:43,750
and you're like, I guess.

1144
01:34:44,791 --> 01:34:47,083
And you just, I just love people that

1145
01:34:47,083 --> 01:34:48,875
love their things so much.

1146
01:34:49,083 --> 01:34:49,166
Yeah.

1147
01:34:49,291 --> 01:34:51,291
Dave, I mean, you are that

1148
01:34:51,291 --> 01:34:52,958
for sharks and rays, right?

1149
01:34:53,625 --> 01:34:54,083
Yeah. Oh yeah.

1150
01:34:54,083 --> 01:34:56,500
And so you can have heated battles in

1151
01:34:56,500 --> 01:34:57,458
there, like heated

1152
01:34:57,458 --> 01:34:59,208
debates and discussion in there.

1153
01:34:59,500 --> 01:34:59,666
Yeah.

1154
01:34:59,791 --> 01:35:00,083
Oh yeah.

1155
01:35:00,291 --> 01:35:02,166
And I just love the love and the passion.

1156
01:35:02,916 --> 01:35:05,708
And for me, I mean, I love significance,

1157
01:35:05,708 --> 01:35:07,416
but I just love the ocean.

1158
01:35:08,000 --> 01:35:08,166
Yeah.

1159
01:35:08,166 --> 01:35:10,041
So I do get side enough.

1160
01:35:10,041 --> 01:35:11,666
I don't have a good side gig going.

1161
01:35:11,666 --> 01:35:12,375
I have my day job.

1162
01:35:12,375 --> 01:35:12,875
Yeah, cool.

1163
01:35:13,291 --> 01:35:13,500
Yeah.

1164
01:35:13,500 --> 01:35:13,750
Of course.

1165
01:35:13,750 --> 01:35:16,041
Do my day job, but I love a side gig and

1166
01:35:16,041 --> 01:35:18,416
I love a side gig that doesn't need a lot

1167
01:35:18,458 --> 01:35:20,500
of money that works with people on the

1168
01:35:20,500 --> 01:35:22,500
ground and that does cool stuff.

1169
01:35:22,916 --> 01:35:23,583
That's this podcast.

1170
01:35:23,833 --> 01:35:24,583
That's what I love.

1171
01:35:24,583 --> 01:35:25,250
That's how this podcast.

1172
01:35:25,250 --> 01:35:26,000
That's what I love.

1173
01:35:26,375 --> 01:35:26,625
Yeah.

1174
01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:27,250
Yeah.

1175
01:35:27,250 --> 01:35:27,333
Yeah.

1176
01:35:27,333 --> 01:35:29,333
I love it because I think you don't need,

1177
01:35:29,333 --> 01:35:30,416
you don't need all the money.

1178
01:35:30,416 --> 01:35:31,208
You don't need all the things.

1179
01:35:31,208 --> 01:35:32,541
If you can build a nice network.

1180
01:35:32,916 --> 01:35:34,833
I mean, look at Dave and I, we, it was an

1181
01:35:34,833 --> 01:35:35,833
email correspondence.

1182
01:35:36,208 --> 01:35:36,500
Yeah.

1183
01:35:37,041 --> 01:35:38,625
And that's also the value because then

1184
01:35:38,625 --> 01:35:40,500
when you find the people that are really

1185
01:35:40,541 --> 01:35:43,291
into their thing or their field, they

1186
01:35:43,291 --> 01:35:44,958
want to share, they want to help.

1187
01:35:44,958 --> 01:35:46,250
They want to reply to emails.

1188
01:35:46,500 --> 01:35:48,000
I mean, you get a whole bunch of people

1189
01:35:48,000 --> 01:35:48,875
that are just shit

1190
01:35:48,875 --> 01:35:50,375
and don't want to play,

1191
01:35:50,666 --> 01:35:51,333
but they're like,

1192
01:35:51,333 --> 01:35:52,708
okay, you, you do you, man.

1193
01:35:53,291 --> 01:35:53,500
Yeah.

1194
01:35:53,500 --> 01:35:54,500
I will play with these people.

1195
01:35:54,500 --> 01:35:55,375
You have that choice.

1196
01:35:55,375 --> 01:35:55,875
Yeah, exactly.

1197
01:35:56,291 --> 01:35:58,208
No, I mean, I mean, I mean the way you

1198
01:35:58,208 --> 01:35:59,791
and I connected was just like through

1199
01:35:59,791 --> 01:36:01,708
Jonathan was just random.

1200
01:36:02,625 --> 01:36:02,750
Yeah.

1201
01:36:02,750 --> 01:36:04,208
It's like, yeah, it's just, I've had

1202
01:36:04,208 --> 01:36:04,958
those things happen.

1203
01:36:05,250 --> 01:36:06,375
You know, I've had a longer career now

1204
01:36:06,375 --> 01:36:07,416
than you, you, you at

1205
01:36:07,416 --> 01:36:08,375
this point, but I've

1206
01:36:08,375 --> 01:36:09,666
had those are just amazing because I've

1207
01:36:09,666 --> 01:36:10,708
had some, I've met

1208
01:36:10,708 --> 01:36:11,875
some of the best people

1209
01:36:12,541 --> 01:36:13,875
like connecting with you and then that

1210
01:36:13,875 --> 01:36:17,333
that's what led to, to going to, to Timor

1211
01:36:17,333 --> 01:36:20,333
Lesty and, um, uh, if you're affected,

1212
01:36:20,333 --> 01:36:21,666
just we'll share the story quickly.

1213
01:36:21,666 --> 01:36:22,416
I don't know if everybody knows the

1214
01:36:22,416 --> 01:36:25,041
story, but you were in Palau and I knew

1215
01:36:25,041 --> 01:36:26,958
Jonathan, I've actually, Jonathan, I have

1216
01:36:26,958 --> 01:36:28,208
never actually been in the same room

1217
01:36:28,291 --> 01:36:29,750
physically together, but we've had this

1218
01:36:29,750 --> 01:36:31,041
correspondence for many years.

1219
01:36:31,291 --> 01:36:32,125
You're like buds.

1220
01:36:32,416 --> 01:36:35,541
You're like, we're like drinking buds.

1221
01:36:35,541 --> 01:36:37,166
It's like, probably, I think we've

1222
01:36:37,166 --> 01:36:39,708
published like five or yeah, literally

1223
01:36:39,958 --> 01:36:41,291
like we've published like five or six

1224
01:36:41,291 --> 01:36:44,541
papers together from like, um, from all

1225
01:36:44,541 --> 01:36:45,791
over the world, like the Galapagos,

1226
01:36:46,083 --> 01:36:47,708
Palau, Timor, Lesty,

1227
01:36:48,666 --> 01:36:50,041
and it's just like, but we

1228
01:36:50,041 --> 01:36:52,291
built this relationship like through,

1229
01:36:52,291 --> 01:36:53,708
through, through, through email.

1230
01:36:53,708 --> 01:36:54,333
And that's the nice thing

1231
01:36:54,333 --> 01:36:55,541
with, with internet now.

1232
01:36:56,166 --> 01:36:58,208
And then when, when you went to Palau and

1233
01:36:58,208 --> 01:37:01,291
you thought you had this, um, uh, Pacific

1234
01:37:01,375 --> 01:37:03,625
sleeper shark, that just got, was like,

1235
01:37:03,625 --> 01:37:04,791
Oh, that's really kind of cool.

1236
01:37:05,041 --> 01:37:07,291
And, and then fast forward.

1237
01:37:07,333 --> 01:37:09,000
And then you went about a year, you sent

1238
01:37:09,000 --> 01:37:10,541
me some pictures that when you were in

1239
01:37:10,541 --> 01:37:12,500
Timor Lesty, I didn't even know you're in

1240
01:37:12,500 --> 01:37:13,791
Timor Lesty at the time.

1241
01:37:14,625 --> 01:37:16,500
And, uh, I moved around very quickly.

1242
01:37:16,958 --> 01:37:17,125
Yeah.

1243
01:37:17,125 --> 01:37:17,666
I was kind of like,

1244
01:37:17,666 --> 01:37:18,333
Oh, what are you doing?

1245
01:37:18,333 --> 01:37:18,916
I thought you were on

1246
01:37:18,916 --> 01:37:19,916
a holiday or something.

1247
01:37:19,958 --> 01:37:21,333
And then you're like,

1248
01:37:21,333 --> 01:37:22,708
Oh no, I work here now.

1249
01:37:22,708 --> 01:37:26,708
And then that led to me modified my, my,

1250
01:37:27,000 --> 01:37:27,625
I was planning to go

1251
01:37:27,625 --> 01:37:28,958
to Indonesia's already.

1252
01:37:29,500 --> 01:37:30,583
And suddenly I added

1253
01:37:30,583 --> 01:37:31,875
Timor Lesty into the group.

1254
01:37:31,875 --> 01:37:32,375
And that was one of

1255
01:37:32,375 --> 01:37:34,333
the best things I, I did.

1256
01:37:34,958 --> 01:37:36,000
Very quickly, actually.

1257
01:37:36,416 --> 01:37:36,666
Yeah.

1258
01:37:37,250 --> 01:37:40,666
And that was also a side gig that I kind

1259
01:37:40,666 --> 01:37:42,916
of wangled into my day

1260
01:37:42,916 --> 01:37:45,916
job, um, to make it happen.

1261
01:37:46,375 --> 01:37:47,916
You know, I'm sure it could have happened

1262
01:37:47,916 --> 01:37:49,500
outside of it, but it was just easier to

1263
01:37:49,500 --> 01:37:52,458
be like, I mean, I was guarding, I was, I

1264
01:37:52,458 --> 01:37:53,083
was already going to

1265
01:37:53,083 --> 01:37:54,416
Northern to Darwin, Australia.

1266
01:37:54,833 --> 01:37:56,500
And I was going to go from there to like,

1267
01:37:56,875 --> 01:37:59,250
to like Bali and then suddenly you and I

1268
01:37:59,250 --> 01:38:00,166
connected like literally

1269
01:38:00,166 --> 01:38:02,250
within like a couple of weeks.

1270
01:38:02,250 --> 01:38:03,750
It's like, okay, I'm coming to Timor

1271
01:38:03,750 --> 01:38:04,500
Lesty with the team.

1272
01:38:05,041 --> 01:38:06,375
And, um, that's

1273
01:38:06,375 --> 01:38:07,916
phenomenal is a phenomenal.

1274
01:38:08,125 --> 01:38:10,000
Yeah, that that's when you came back from

1275
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:12,583
that trip, you were like Timor Lesty is a

1276
01:38:12,583 --> 01:38:14,791
gold mine of species

1277
01:38:14,791 --> 01:38:16,583
and things like that.

1278
01:38:16,583 --> 01:38:18,500
You know, you were, you were

1279
01:38:18,500 --> 01:38:19,833
like a kid in a candy store.

1280
01:38:20,083 --> 01:38:20,333
Oh man.

1281
01:38:20,875 --> 01:38:21,750
Oh yeah.

1282
01:38:21,750 --> 01:38:22,166
I got it.

1283
01:38:22,166 --> 01:38:24,250
You know, I still gotta go here.

1284
01:38:24,791 --> 01:38:25,750
Oh, oh yeah.

1285
01:38:25,750 --> 01:38:26,250
No, it was great.

1286
01:38:26,625 --> 01:38:27,708
You know, if you haven't heard the

1287
01:38:27,708 --> 01:38:29,708
podcast episode, check it out.

1288
01:38:30,000 --> 01:38:30,291
Yeah.

1289
01:38:31,083 --> 01:38:33,208
But we'll, but the, but I want to go back

1290
01:38:33,208 --> 01:38:34,000
and go die, do some

1291
01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:34,958
diving there next time.

1292
01:38:34,958 --> 01:38:36,750
And I want to go, I got, I've never seen

1293
01:38:36,750 --> 01:38:38,250
a seahorse in the wild.

1294
01:38:38,458 --> 01:38:39,458
That's one of the things I definitely

1295
01:38:39,458 --> 01:38:40,875
like to see sometimes.

1296
01:38:41,250 --> 01:38:42,916
See, thank you.

1297
01:38:43,125 --> 01:38:43,416
Carefully.

1298
01:38:43,416 --> 01:38:45,166
You don't see a croc in the wild.

1299
01:38:45,166 --> 01:38:45,291
Yeah.

1300
01:38:45,291 --> 01:38:46,125
I still want to run this rocket.

1301
01:38:46,666 --> 01:38:49,500
That was because those are

1302
01:38:49,500 --> 01:38:50,916
the stories that concerned me.

1303
01:38:50,916 --> 01:38:52,166
I was like, you could, what now?

1304
01:38:52,166 --> 01:38:53,208
Like how many are there?

1305
01:38:53,750 --> 01:38:53,958
Yeah.

1306
01:38:54,250 --> 01:38:54,458
Everywhere.

1307
01:38:55,125 --> 01:38:55,333
Yeah.

1308
01:38:55,458 --> 01:38:55,500
Yeah.

1309
01:38:55,500 --> 01:38:55,750
Too many.

1310
01:38:56,166 --> 01:38:56,708
I know.

1311
01:38:56,708 --> 01:38:58,208
I, I told the story of that.

1312
01:38:58,291 --> 01:38:59,500
But by, yeah, but, you know,

1313
01:38:59,500 --> 01:39:00,833
I've been in Africa, you know,

1314
01:39:00,875 --> 01:39:02,458
Nile crocodiles, you know, you know,

1315
01:39:02,458 --> 01:39:04,250
they're there been to other places where

1316
01:39:04,250 --> 01:39:06,791
they had like Australia's are, but man,

1317
01:39:06,791 --> 01:39:09,208
and Timor, lesti, that was like a new

1318
01:39:09,208 --> 01:39:10,875
level of crocodiles for me.

1319
01:39:11,541 --> 01:39:12,500
It was just like everywhere.

1320
01:39:13,041 --> 01:39:13,666
It was just like,

1321
01:39:13,666 --> 01:39:15,083
don't step off the road.

1322
01:39:15,791 --> 01:39:16,916
You know, don't go here.

1323
01:39:17,416 --> 01:39:19,958
You know, I, I, I remember the one day we

1324
01:39:19,958 --> 01:39:21,250
talked about this when Denise was on

1325
01:39:21,250 --> 01:39:24,000
the show last year about, she was asking,

1326
01:39:24,000 --> 01:39:24,500
I think it was, I

1327
01:39:24,500 --> 01:39:25,375
can't remember his junior.

1328
01:39:25,833 --> 01:39:26,666
She said, is it okay to go

1329
01:39:26,666 --> 01:39:27,666
take a picture over there?

1330
01:39:27,666 --> 01:39:28,875
Some like pretty little lagoon.

1331
01:39:29,250 --> 01:39:30,958
I thought she said, he said, yes.

1332
01:39:30,958 --> 01:39:32,375
And so she starts walking over there and

1333
01:39:32,375 --> 01:39:33,416
he starts throwing it.

1334
01:39:33,416 --> 01:39:35,500
Oh, there's like a crocodile there.

1335
01:39:35,500 --> 01:39:37,083
It took some guy last week.

1336
01:39:37,083 --> 01:39:39,000
He's like, oh, dear God.

1337
01:39:39,416 --> 01:39:40,166
Like, great.

1338
01:39:40,833 --> 01:39:41,666
Oh, I need to do this.

1339
01:39:41,750 --> 01:39:42,125
Not ideal.

1340
01:39:42,500 --> 01:39:43,666
Loses a camera woman the

1341
01:39:43,666 --> 01:39:44,625
first week in the trip.

1342
01:39:44,625 --> 01:39:45,000
Great.

1343
01:39:45,250 --> 01:39:45,458
That's perfect.

1344
01:39:45,958 --> 01:39:47,333
Oh, no, no, I don't want to do that.

1345
01:39:47,333 --> 01:39:48,958
There's other people that we can lose.

1346
01:39:48,958 --> 01:39:49,416
Not not.

1347
01:39:49,416 --> 01:39:49,583
Yeah.

1348
01:39:49,666 --> 01:39:49,875
Yeah.

1349
01:39:50,125 --> 01:39:50,375
Yeah. I know.

1350
01:39:50,583 --> 01:39:51,666
We got plenty of

1351
01:39:51,666 --> 01:39:53,166
people from World's Fish.

1352
01:39:53,291 --> 01:39:54,000
You can lose one of them.

1353
01:39:55,333 --> 01:39:56,500
Take them.

1354
01:39:57,000 --> 01:39:57,125
Yeah.

1355
01:40:08,500 --> 01:40:15,166
Yeah.

1356
01:40:15,833 --> 01:40:19,833
Yeah. Yeah. Just so people understand, because we'll

1357
01:40:19,833 --> 01:40:21,250
be, we're going to be doing,

1358
01:40:21,250 --> 01:40:22,833
we're going to be doing an episode later

1359
01:40:22,833 --> 01:40:24,166
this year on, on team or less.

1360
01:40:24,208 --> 01:40:26,750
And we'll have low come back on to, to

1361
01:40:26,750 --> 01:40:27,791
talk, get more in depth in

1362
01:40:27,791 --> 01:40:28,750
the team or less the stuff.

1363
01:40:28,750 --> 01:40:30,375
But this was a place that's completely

1364
01:40:30,375 --> 01:40:32,875
unexplored for sharks and rays.

1365
01:40:33,166 --> 01:40:35,375
And so now we have a drawn

1366
01:40:35,375 --> 01:40:36,375
up a stone on the ground.

1367
01:40:36,375 --> 01:40:38,750
Now he's doing her PhD and we, and this

1368
01:40:38,750 --> 01:40:40,500
was a side thing we sort of worked out

1369
01:40:41,250 --> 01:40:43,250
with low is that we now we, she's doing

1370
01:40:43,250 --> 01:40:44,125
Adrian is doing this as

1371
01:40:44,125 --> 01:40:45,541
part of her thesis chapter now

1372
01:40:45,541 --> 01:40:47,083
on team or less tea,

1373
01:40:47,083 --> 01:40:48,416
which is great for her.

1374
01:40:48,416 --> 01:40:49,625
Because we have a grad student doing all

1375
01:40:49,625 --> 01:40:51,250
the work now we can just enjoy it.

1376
01:40:51,250 --> 01:40:51,500
Yeah.

1377
01:40:51,500 --> 01:40:52,291
And it's awesome.

1378
01:40:52,291 --> 01:40:53,208
I think because I

1379
01:40:53,208 --> 01:40:54,083
think, and correct me if I'm

1380
01:40:54,125 --> 01:40:55,833
wrong Dave, she wouldn't have gone to

1381
01:40:55,833 --> 01:40:58,208
team or was not in her plans.

1382
01:40:58,208 --> 01:40:59,875
No, no, no, no.

1383
01:40:59,875 --> 01:41:01,458
So it's awesome how it comes together

1384
01:41:01,458 --> 01:41:02,500
because someone needs

1385
01:41:02,500 --> 01:41:03,791
to pay attention to this.

1386
01:41:04,041 --> 01:41:05,083
And what's right better

1387
01:41:05,083 --> 01:41:06,875
than Adrian, Adrian for that.

1388
01:41:07,083 --> 01:41:07,333
Oh yeah.

1389
01:41:07,500 --> 01:41:07,750
Yeah.

1390
01:41:07,750 --> 01:41:09,458
Adrian are doing a PhD on it.

1391
01:41:09,458 --> 01:41:09,625
Right.

1392
01:41:09,875 --> 01:41:11,500
Well, I knew I, well, I've known Adrian

1393
01:41:11,500 --> 01:41:12,833
for a while and she'd

1394
01:41:12,833 --> 01:41:14,083
done, I've been in the field

1395
01:41:14,083 --> 01:41:15,708
with her and we've done some, some her

1396
01:41:15,708 --> 01:41:16,333
and I actually had worked

1397
01:41:16,333 --> 01:41:18,083
together and I knew she was in

1398
01:41:18,083 --> 01:41:20,083
Darwin and I thought like,

1399
01:41:20,083 --> 01:41:21,375
Oh, this is just perfect.

1400
01:41:21,375 --> 01:41:22,250
And so I talked to her

1401
01:41:22,250 --> 01:41:23,791
advisor, Pete kind, I said, Hey,

1402
01:41:23,833 --> 01:41:25,208
do you mind if I take your grad students

1403
01:41:25,208 --> 01:41:28,041
with me to Timor Lesty and

1404
01:41:28,041 --> 01:41:29,250
might work something out?

1405
01:41:29,250 --> 01:41:29,750
And he's like, sure.

1406
01:41:30,208 --> 01:41:32,333
So it's literally it's like, so it worked

1407
01:41:32,333 --> 01:41:33,000
in, it's going to be,

1408
01:41:33,000 --> 01:41:33,916
this is going to be a,

1409
01:41:33,916 --> 01:41:35,541
I think just beautiful chapter for her

1410
01:41:35,541 --> 01:41:38,333
old thesis and it's, it's a, it's a

1411
01:41:38,333 --> 01:41:39,166
completely unexplored

1412
01:41:39,166 --> 01:41:41,083
area. I mean, it's like, yeah. And I'm

1413
01:41:41,083 --> 01:41:41,541
sure there's people

1414
01:41:41,541 --> 01:41:42,333
listening to this thing.

1415
01:41:42,333 --> 01:41:44,250
They go, where's Timor Lesty now? Yeah.

1416
01:41:44,708 --> 01:41:45,750
Yeah. Go look at a map.

1417
01:41:45,750 --> 01:41:48,000
But do you see it used to be, I know if I

1418
01:41:48,000 --> 01:41:49,791
tell people East Timor,

1419
01:41:49,791 --> 01:41:50,833
they know, they know that,

1420
01:41:50,833 --> 01:41:52,916
but Timor Lesty, the name change.

1421
01:41:53,625 --> 01:41:54,583
I needed to go.

1422
01:41:55,250 --> 01:41:57,041
Yeah, definitely. We definitely had a

1423
01:41:57,041 --> 01:41:57,875
Google on it when we

1424
01:41:57,875 --> 01:41:59,166
discussed it before the podcast.

1425
01:41:59,166 --> 01:41:59,375
Right.

1426
01:41:59,958 --> 01:42:00,708
I was like, I need to find

1427
01:42:00,708 --> 01:42:01,750
out more about this place.

1428
01:42:02,416 --> 01:42:05,291
But it was a country though, you know, if

1429
01:42:05,291 --> 01:42:06,500
you're a diver and if

1430
01:42:06,500 --> 01:42:07,416
you're a macro diver,

1431
01:42:08,166 --> 01:42:09,291
100% of places.

1432
01:42:09,666 --> 01:42:09,833
Yeah.

1433
01:42:09,875 --> 01:42:10,833
It's amazing.

1434
01:42:11,375 --> 01:42:13,333
And it's it's it was, yeah, it was not

1435
01:42:13,333 --> 01:42:14,250
easy to get around to

1436
01:42:14,250 --> 01:42:15,708
places, but it was just, it was,

1437
01:42:15,875 --> 01:42:17,458
it was a, it was a phenomenal one.

1438
01:42:17,916 --> 01:42:18,500
Definitely one of the

1439
01:42:18,500 --> 01:42:19,625
highlight trips of my career to

1440
01:42:19,625 --> 01:42:22,041
go in someplace completely off the grid.

1441
01:42:22,041 --> 01:42:23,708
Didn't know anything about show it up

1442
01:42:23,708 --> 01:42:24,583
there. But people were

1443
01:42:24,583 --> 01:42:26,041
friendly, just getting

1444
01:42:26,041 --> 01:42:29,666
amazing. The Timo are amazing. Yeah.

1445
01:42:29,666 --> 01:42:31,541
The driving is true. So we were driving

1446
01:42:31,541 --> 01:42:32,708
from one place to another

1447
01:42:32,708 --> 01:42:34,041
and our driver, Sam, we were

1448
01:42:34,041 --> 01:42:35,541
like, Hey, Sam, how long would it be? And

1449
01:42:35,541 --> 01:42:36,583
he's like, no, two hours,

1450
01:42:36,583 --> 01:42:38,041
man, two hours. And then

1451
01:42:38,125 --> 01:42:40,875
five, six hours later, we were still

1452
01:42:40,875 --> 01:42:44,083
driving. And we were like, wait a minute.

1453
01:42:44,916 --> 01:42:45,458
I'm not sure.

1454
01:42:45,625 --> 01:42:49,416
Sam, I have to post on social media, some

1455
01:42:49,416 --> 01:42:50,916
of the, some of the, some of the roads

1456
01:42:50,916 --> 01:42:51,833
there, because there

1457
01:42:51,833 --> 01:42:53,708
are places that Sam there would be

1458
01:42:53,708 --> 01:42:54,958
driving just the middle of

1459
01:42:54,958 --> 01:42:56,625
nowhere. And Sam, I know, like,

1460
01:42:56,625 --> 01:42:58,125
oh, I need to go right here. I'm going to

1461
01:42:58,125 --> 01:42:59,291
turn left here. There's no

1462
01:42:59,291 --> 01:43:00,875
signs. And we're just sitting

1463
01:43:00,875 --> 01:43:03,041
in the car, like, okay, well, I never

1464
01:43:03,041 --> 01:43:04,083
would have never in a million

1465
01:43:04,083 --> 01:43:04,916
years would have figured out

1466
01:43:04,916 --> 01:43:06,208
how to get around there. But the benefits

1467
01:43:06,208 --> 01:43:07,333
of having a driver who

1468
01:43:07,333 --> 01:43:08,833
lives there is, oh, yeah.

1469
01:43:09,041 --> 01:43:11,333
Well, she's well, great driver. Some of

1470
01:43:11,333 --> 01:43:13,958
those drivers are, yeah. Well,

1471
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:16,791
he takes you from A to B alive. Yeah,

1472
01:43:16,791 --> 01:43:19,833
exactly. Exactly. Well,

1473
01:43:19,833 --> 01:43:20,958
when he stopped, he stopped,

1474
01:43:20,958 --> 01:43:23,041
yeah, the car to sort of quote, use the

1475
01:43:23,041 --> 01:43:24,000
restroom. He's like, don't

1476
01:43:24,000 --> 01:43:25,375
get off the road because the

1477
01:43:25,375 --> 01:43:26,958
Crocs will probably take you out there.

1478
01:43:27,708 --> 01:43:29,333
And, um, but yeah, no, it

1479
01:43:29,333 --> 01:43:31,083
was, yeah, it was as well as if

1480
01:43:31,083 --> 01:43:32,083
you ever go there and you want to go

1481
01:43:32,083 --> 01:43:33,458
exploring T more or less the higher,

1482
01:43:33,458 --> 01:43:34,833
we'll talk to somebody

1483
01:43:34,833 --> 01:43:37,208
and hire a good driver because you will

1484
01:43:37,208 --> 01:43:38,125
not, because there's no

1485
01:43:38,125 --> 01:43:39,125
signs out there. You're just

1486
01:43:39,166 --> 01:43:42,041
driving along and you'll just turn one

1487
01:43:42,041 --> 01:43:42,916
way or another and you

1488
01:43:42,916 --> 01:43:43,833
just assume the driver's going

1489
01:43:43,833 --> 01:43:45,833
to get you there eventually. And yeah,

1490
01:43:45,833 --> 01:43:47,250
like you said, it's like, it tell you,

1491
01:43:47,250 --> 01:43:48,125
maybe it's two hours

1492
01:43:48,125 --> 01:43:49,666
as well. It's more like five or six hours

1493
01:43:49,666 --> 01:43:50,916
to get there. And that's

1494
01:43:50,916 --> 01:43:52,375
torture, you know, because you

1495
01:43:52,375 --> 01:43:54,083
and your haters like, I'm going to get

1496
01:43:54,083 --> 01:43:54,791
ready for two hour

1497
01:43:54,791 --> 01:43:57,208
drive. Yeah. And then like,

1498
01:43:57,208 --> 01:43:59,000
big, like if it's two and then maybe you

1499
01:43:59,000 --> 01:44:02,250
go three, that's not bad. But to go like,

1500
01:44:02,916 --> 01:44:05,083
like triple the, you're

1501
01:44:05,083 --> 01:44:07,125
like, okay, this is crazy. Yeah.

1502
01:44:07,958 --> 01:44:10,083
And you, and you, the funny thing is we

1503
01:44:10,083 --> 01:44:11,833
would stop in these towns and

1504
01:44:11,833 --> 01:44:13,166
I, I'm sure they had names for

1505
01:44:13,166 --> 01:44:14,083
them. We just stopped in the town. Like,

1506
01:44:14,083 --> 01:44:15,541
okay, it's time to eat and

1507
01:44:15,541 --> 01:44:17,000
just like order up whatever,

1508
01:44:18,208 --> 01:44:20,250
on the menu. And I still remember like we

1509
01:44:20,250 --> 01:44:21,375
had ordered like chicken

1510
01:44:21,375 --> 01:44:22,666
scene to be a staple there.

1511
01:44:23,125 --> 01:44:25,041
I can remember like we're all, we're all

1512
01:44:25,041 --> 01:44:26,250
there looking at the, at

1513
01:44:26,250 --> 01:44:27,916
the quote chicken bones and

1514
01:44:27,916 --> 01:44:29,375
we're all looking at each other, like six

1515
01:44:29,375 --> 01:44:31,166
biologists were like, what

1516
01:44:31,166 --> 01:44:32,250
part of the chickens is this?

1517
01:44:32,291 --> 01:44:36,375
I have no, and it was just like, okay,

1518
01:44:36,375 --> 01:44:39,208
we're gonna, we're gonna call it. Yeah,

1519
01:44:39,208 --> 01:44:40,083
we're gonna ask. Yeah.

1520
01:44:40,416 --> 01:44:41,250
Well, I was a newbie at

1521
01:44:41,250 --> 01:44:44,791
the time. I know. I know.

1522
01:44:45,750 --> 01:44:47,416
Lo's just like, it's chicken Dave. It's

1523
01:44:47,416 --> 01:44:48,416
just called chicken. Just

1524
01:44:48,416 --> 01:44:49,500
in your head. It's chicken.

1525
01:44:49,916 --> 01:44:53,208
Chicken. Yeah. Yeah. Don't ask. Never,

1526
01:44:53,208 --> 01:44:54,708
never mind. There's lots of cats and

1527
01:44:54,708 --> 01:44:55,541
there's rats the size

1528
01:44:55,541 --> 01:44:57,166
of cats around, but they could actually

1529
01:44:57,166 --> 01:44:58,208
have been a dog. Maybe

1530
01:44:58,208 --> 01:45:00,000
also. Yeah. Regardless,

1531
01:45:00,750 --> 01:45:02,625
chicken. It was protein. It was all good.

1532
01:45:02,875 --> 01:45:03,875
Yeah. It was chicken. We had

1533
01:45:03,875 --> 01:45:05,000
chicken and rice. It was great.

1534
01:45:05,250 --> 01:45:06,458
We're, we loved it. It was awesome.

1535
01:45:06,708 --> 01:45:07,500
Chicken right in my head is

1536
01:45:07,500 --> 01:45:08,416
chicken and rice, chicken.

1537
01:45:08,500 --> 01:45:10,666
Yes. But I think what's interesting is,

1538
01:45:11,000 --> 01:45:13,416
um, having a country like this and then

1539
01:45:13,416 --> 01:45:14,500
doing research in it.

1540
01:45:14,750 --> 01:45:16,791
So it's difficult, right? Yeah. Oh yeah.

1541
01:45:17,083 --> 01:45:17,791
It's difficult. Oh yeah.

1542
01:45:17,791 --> 01:45:18,791
And it's difficult to get it

1543
01:45:18,791 --> 01:45:21,791
in and our situation and what we had just

1544
01:45:21,791 --> 01:45:23,583
had the opportunity of, I

1545
01:45:23,583 --> 01:45:24,666
was a person that was in

1546
01:45:24,833 --> 01:45:26,708
that knew other people that wanted to in

1547
01:45:26,708 --> 01:45:28,375
and connected them with

1548
01:45:28,375 --> 01:45:29,208
people that live there.

1549
01:45:29,791 --> 01:45:32,166
Yeah. And that's how you get to do stuff.

1550
01:45:32,166 --> 01:45:33,416
Right. And I think, you

1551
01:45:33,416 --> 01:45:34,916
know, it's like I talk about a

1552
01:45:34,916 --> 01:45:36,291
lot of these things, like we're finding a

1553
01:45:36,291 --> 01:45:37,041
lot of, we're finding a

1554
01:45:37,041 --> 01:45:38,250
lot of, we're gonna have some

1555
01:45:38,250 --> 01:45:40,500
really cool stuff coming up later on with

1556
01:45:40,500 --> 01:45:41,583
the sharks and rays we're

1557
01:45:41,583 --> 01:45:43,291
finding there. But it's like,

1558
01:45:44,166 --> 01:45:46,041
it's like I always say, like, if it was

1559
01:45:46,041 --> 01:45:47,125
easy, everybody would do

1560
01:45:47,125 --> 01:45:48,000
it. And the fact that people

1561
01:45:48,041 --> 01:45:50,333
haven't gone there to do it, it's not,

1562
01:45:50,333 --> 01:45:51,583
and you know, they're low,

1563
01:45:51,583 --> 01:45:52,208
you live there. It's like,

1564
01:45:52,208 --> 01:45:54,750
it's not an easy place to work and stuff.

1565
01:45:55,041 --> 01:45:56,250
And you just, but you just

1566
01:45:56,250 --> 01:45:57,208
get, you know, you just get in

1567
01:45:57,250 --> 01:45:59,125
there and you just do the best you can

1568
01:45:59,125 --> 01:46:00,833
and, and stuff. And as I

1569
01:46:00,833 --> 01:46:02,458
say, if you've got to have a bit

1570
01:46:02,458 --> 01:46:06,500
of an explorer sort of attitude to go and

1571
01:46:06,500 --> 01:46:07,458
do that stuff, because it's

1572
01:46:07,458 --> 01:46:08,916
not, I say, you know, you think

1573
01:46:08,916 --> 01:46:10,333
you're got a two hour ride, just like a

1574
01:46:10,333 --> 01:46:12,916
five or six hour ride. Yeah. It's not a,

1575
01:46:12,916 --> 01:46:14,333
it's all dirt roads.

1576
01:46:14,500 --> 01:46:16,708
It's, and I use the word road kind of

1577
01:46:16,708 --> 01:46:18,000
loosely because it's,

1578
01:46:18,000 --> 01:46:18,833
there are some of the places.

1579
01:46:19,541 --> 01:46:21,041
It could be a path. Yeah. It could be a

1580
01:46:21,041 --> 01:46:21,833
path. There could be

1581
01:46:21,833 --> 01:46:23,125
something, whatever, you know,

1582
01:46:23,166 --> 01:46:27,041
it's just kind of a thing. And the other

1583
01:46:27,041 --> 01:46:27,958
thing I just wanted to mention too, like

1584
01:46:27,958 --> 01:46:28,666
the people that were

1585
01:46:28,750 --> 01:46:31,416
so nice. And if, if you look up the

1586
01:46:31,416 --> 01:46:34,125
history of there, it's just, they, they,

1587
01:46:34,125 --> 01:46:34,625
they went through just

1588
01:46:34,625 --> 01:46:37,041
like a brutal civil war for almost 30

1589
01:46:37,041 --> 01:46:39,750
years with Indonesia. And you just, and

1590
01:46:39,750 --> 01:46:40,333
you just, and yet you

1591
01:46:40,333 --> 01:46:41,791
just think like, God, well, these are

1592
01:46:41,791 --> 01:46:43,666
like the nicest people I've

1593
01:46:43,666 --> 01:46:44,750
ever met. Like who'd want to,

1594
01:46:44,750 --> 01:46:46,083
who'd want to have a war with these guys

1595
01:46:46,083 --> 01:46:47,375
are just really friendly.

1596
01:46:47,666 --> 01:46:50,291
And, and just like, we just,

1597
01:46:50,500 --> 01:46:51,833
and it was just amazing. Just some

1598
01:46:51,833 --> 01:46:54,041
amazing contact there. I just really

1599
01:46:54,041 --> 01:46:54,833
liked it. Like I said,

1600
01:46:54,833 --> 01:46:56,041
I definitely hope to get back there

1601
01:46:56,041 --> 01:46:57,625
someday and do some, but we're going to

1602
01:46:57,625 --> 01:46:58,416
go, we're going to do some

1603
01:46:58,416 --> 01:47:00,333
diving. Lowe's going to show me seahorses

1604
01:47:00,333 --> 01:47:03,125
there somehow. So all the tiny things,

1605
01:47:03,500 --> 01:47:04,375
all the tiny things,

1606
01:47:04,750 --> 01:47:07,958
all the invertebrates. Yeah. What? Well,

1607
01:47:08,000 --> 01:47:09,000
speaking of which I saw you,

1608
01:47:09,000 --> 01:47:10,750
you, you did a book with Terry

1609
01:47:10,750 --> 01:47:14,458
Gosselin. Yeah. But marginally I provided

1610
01:47:14,458 --> 01:47:16,916
some photos. Okay. So

1611
01:47:16,916 --> 01:47:18,333
no, Georgina Jones was the,

1612
01:47:18,458 --> 01:47:21,833
was the writer and creator of all. Okay.

1613
01:47:21,833 --> 01:47:23,166
To be fair, all the other

1614
01:47:23,166 --> 01:47:24,375
co-authors were just people that

1615
01:47:24,375 --> 01:47:26,750
gave photos. So we shouldn't actually be

1616
01:47:26,750 --> 01:47:28,125
there. Well, it's still, it's still a

1617
01:47:28,125 --> 01:47:29,541
book. So, well, you know,

1618
01:47:29,541 --> 01:47:30,625
well, you know, I don't know if you know,

1619
01:47:30,625 --> 01:47:31,625
but you know, Terry used,

1620
01:47:31,625 --> 01:47:32,750
Terry worked at the South

1621
01:47:32,750 --> 01:47:35,583
African museum back in the day. I think,

1622
01:47:35,916 --> 01:47:38,458
I think I knew that. In the early

1623
01:47:38,458 --> 01:47:41,041
eighties, he left, he left and went to

1624
01:47:41,041 --> 01:47:43,208
the California Academy of Sciences just

1625
01:47:43,208 --> 01:47:44,916
before I, I arrived in South

1626
01:47:44,916 --> 01:47:46,166
Africa. Like he left like an

1627
01:47:46,208 --> 01:47:49,583
80, 40, he left in 80, 45 and I arrived

1628
01:47:49,583 --> 01:47:52,708
in like 86 and years later I

1629
01:47:52,708 --> 01:47:53,958
got to know cause I go, I'm,

1630
01:47:53,958 --> 01:47:55,916
I'm just South of San Francisco. So I go

1631
01:47:55,916 --> 01:47:57,958
up and I got to know him here in San

1632
01:47:57,958 --> 01:47:58,958
Francisco, you know,

1633
01:47:58,958 --> 01:48:00,750
real nice guy. But yeah, he, he spent a

1634
01:48:00,750 --> 01:48:01,833
couple of two or three

1635
01:48:01,833 --> 01:48:04,166
years, I think in, in South Africa

1636
01:48:04,166 --> 01:48:06,958
and wrote a book on the, a very close

1637
01:48:06,958 --> 01:48:09,541
connection here. Oh yeah. And newly

1638
01:48:09,541 --> 01:48:10,583
Brancis like every second

1639
01:48:10,625 --> 01:48:13,625
one is a new one. So yeah, there's so

1640
01:48:13,625 --> 01:48:15,916
many to discover, right? Cut out for him.

1641
01:48:15,916 --> 01:48:18,375
Yeah. Every second one is new. So much so

1642
01:48:18,375 --> 01:48:19,125
that people are just like

1643
01:48:19,125 --> 01:48:21,041
specie one specie two specie three. Yeah.

1644
01:48:21,583 --> 01:48:24,291
Yeah. Oh yeah. He's, he's still, he still

1645
01:48:24,291 --> 01:48:25,375
goes back every now and

1646
01:48:25,375 --> 01:48:26,125
then because he has good

1647
01:48:26,125 --> 01:48:28,291
friends in Cape Town. Um, and then

1648
01:48:28,291 --> 01:48:30,458
actually some of his people, him and his

1649
01:48:30,458 --> 01:48:31,333
wife were friends with her

1650
01:48:31,333 --> 01:48:32,833
or became good friends of mine

1651
01:48:32,833 --> 01:48:35,083
when I lived there at the museum there.

1652
01:48:35,083 --> 01:48:36,333
Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I have some, I have

1653
01:48:36,333 --> 01:48:37,333
some, yeah. We have some

1654
01:48:37,333 --> 01:48:38,416
really, turned out we had really

1655
01:48:38,458 --> 01:48:39,791
good mutual friends, but it was only

1656
01:48:39,791 --> 01:48:41,416
after I'd left South Africa. I got to

1657
01:48:41,416 --> 01:48:42,250
know him at in San

1658
01:48:42,250 --> 01:48:44,958
Francisco. Um, awesome though. Anyway,

1659
01:48:44,958 --> 01:48:46,583
small little, the science circles are

1660
01:48:46,583 --> 01:48:47,791
small. Doesn't matter what you're

1661
01:48:47,791 --> 01:48:49,833
studying. True. It's all yeah, small,

1662
01:48:49,958 --> 01:48:51,541
prestigious world. But I, I know people

1663
01:48:51,541 --> 01:48:52,791
listening got off a little

1664
01:48:52,791 --> 01:48:53,833
tangent there, but I think,

1665
01:48:53,833 --> 01:48:55,500
but the point is you meet a lot of people

1666
01:48:55,500 --> 01:48:57,333
in this field that you

1667
01:48:57,333 --> 01:48:59,000
wouldn't, you wouldn't know that

1668
01:48:59,083 --> 01:49:01,000
they have, they have this travel in these

1669
01:49:01,000 --> 01:49:01,833
different circles. And like I

1670
01:49:01,833 --> 01:49:02,833
said, it's a small world in a

1671
01:49:02,875 --> 01:49:05,458
lot of ways, you know, so, but I think

1672
01:49:05,458 --> 01:49:07,333
that played a big role in how I do my

1673
01:49:07,333 --> 01:49:09,083
work also, because I've been, I work,

1674
01:49:09,416 --> 01:49:10,625
I've worked on many, many different

1675
01:49:10,625 --> 01:49:13,416
things, right? Um, and most of that is

1676
01:49:13,416 --> 01:49:15,583
because I met someone or someone wanted

1677
01:49:15,583 --> 01:49:17,625
to do something where I was based or

1678
01:49:17,625 --> 01:49:19,708
whatever. And then, you know, I dabble

1679
01:49:19,708 --> 01:49:22,041
in, in what they maybe do or whatever.

1680
01:49:22,583 --> 01:49:24,791
Um, you know, and that's how you build

1681
01:49:24,791 --> 01:49:26,583
your network and you learn. So it's

1682
01:49:26,583 --> 01:49:28,000
always been a steep learning curve

1683
01:49:28,000 --> 01:49:29,166
because there's always new things

1684
01:49:29,166 --> 01:49:30,791
happening and new fields.

1685
01:49:31,416 --> 01:49:33,166
And now you got into the shark world now,

1686
01:49:33,166 --> 01:49:34,958
which is awesome in my perspective. I

1687
01:49:34,958 --> 01:49:37,125
feel like that's a slippery slope. Yeah,

1688
01:49:37,125 --> 01:49:39,000
it could be, but yeah, one day you wake

1689
01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:40,833
up and it's just like sharks everywhere.

1690
01:49:41,625 --> 01:49:43,875
Yeah. Suddenly start, you start thinking

1691
01:49:43,875 --> 01:49:45,666
about that. Doing, doing that, doing that

1692
01:49:45,666 --> 01:49:48,083
solo dive in, in, in night off. Niza

1693
01:49:48,083 --> 01:49:49,916
doesn't look so quite as like, Hmm, I

1694
01:49:49,916 --> 01:49:50,875
wonder what that could have, a lot of

1695
01:49:50,875 --> 01:49:52,250
things could have gone really wrong here.

1696
01:49:52,500 --> 01:49:53,875
Right. I didn't even think about sharks.

1697
01:49:54,500 --> 01:49:58,208
Barely, barely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so

1698
01:49:58,208 --> 01:49:59,708
now you got kind of got shocked by the

1699
01:49:59,708 --> 01:50:00,916
way, when you were in working at Niza,

1700
01:50:00,916 --> 01:50:01,125
you ever seen a shark? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

1701
01:50:01,166 --> 01:50:14,791
Yeah. But the worst was when I was doing

1702
01:50:14,791 --> 01:50:16,875
my surveys for seahorses. Every now and I

1703
01:50:16,875 --> 01:50:19,375
get, I got shocked to shut out of me by

1704
01:50:19,375 --> 01:50:21,916
these electric race? The electric race.

1705
01:50:22,208 --> 01:50:24,833
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I didn't

1706
01:50:24,833 --> 01:50:26,291
think they could do that. But they can.

1707
01:50:26,875 --> 01:50:28,500
Oh yeah. You discovered it the hard way.

1708
01:50:29,041 --> 01:50:30,125
Yeah. You found it. But also such a rook.

1709
01:50:30,125 --> 01:50:31,708
Under, you shouldn't have been on it. Yeah. And uh, you know, uh, but it's graphically missing in the Make up. You know, let's let's go look into Niza's Welocking transcend and see if that's what you needed right. You, uh, is important. So such a rookie, like not

1710
01:50:31,708 --> 01:50:33,625
only once, like a few times.

1711
01:50:34,208 --> 01:50:34,291
Yeah.

1712
01:50:34,333 --> 01:50:34,583
You know?

1713
01:50:34,625 --> 01:50:35,375
They wasn't like, oh, I

1714
01:50:35,375 --> 01:50:36,708
should just stay away from them.

1715
01:50:36,791 --> 01:50:36,833
Yeah.

1716
01:50:36,833 --> 01:50:37,166
No, no.

1717
01:50:38,041 --> 01:50:38,750
Once you can accept.

1718
01:50:38,750 --> 01:50:39,000
But they're sneaky.

1719
01:50:40,041 --> 01:50:41,875
Once you can accept, but you know,

1720
01:50:41,875 --> 01:50:43,083
a third or fourth time, it's

1721
01:50:43,083 --> 01:50:44,000
like, that's kind of on you.

1722
01:50:44,000 --> 01:50:44,333
That's my fault.

1723
01:50:44,791 --> 01:50:45,625
Yeah, but they're sneaky, Dave.

1724
01:50:45,625 --> 01:50:46,750
They're sneaky because they lie

1725
01:50:46,750 --> 01:50:48,208
and they kind of cover themselves

1726
01:50:48,208 --> 01:50:48,875
and they're in the

1727
01:50:48,875 --> 01:50:50,291
seagrass and you don't see them.

1728
01:50:51,000 --> 01:50:51,541
Yeah, that's true.

1729
01:50:51,541 --> 01:50:52,833
And that's how I look for seahorses.

1730
01:50:52,833 --> 01:50:54,250
And then it's like, oh, okay.

1731
01:50:54,333 --> 01:50:54,958
Yeah, okay, okay.

1732
01:50:55,750 --> 01:50:57,041
You're forgiven of that.

1733
01:50:57,041 --> 01:50:58,166
Well, you know that, well, you know,

1734
01:51:00,166 --> 01:51:00,708
I think I worked on blue

1735
01:51:00,708 --> 01:51:02,333
stingrays for his master's thesis

1736
01:51:02,875 --> 01:51:03,708
and we used to go dive.

1737
01:51:04,541 --> 01:51:05,166
Oh, not. Yeah, it was his master's

1738
01:51:05,166 --> 01:51:06,125
thesis with blue stingrays.

1739
01:51:06,125 --> 01:51:08,125
And so we used to dive

1740
01:51:08,125 --> 01:51:09,083
along the coast there

1741
01:51:09,083 --> 01:51:10,000
in areas where we knew the

1742
01:51:10,000 --> 01:51:11,125
stingrays would aggregate,

1743
01:51:12,333 --> 01:51:13,083
just snorkeling.

1744
01:51:13,583 --> 01:51:14,708
And you can see, this is

1745
01:51:14,708 --> 01:51:15,875
getting back in the eighties.

1746
01:51:16,291 --> 01:51:16,833
You can see where they

1747
01:51:16,833 --> 01:51:18,875
all, they sit in the bottom.

1748
01:51:19,083 --> 01:51:19,416
And with a lot of

1749
01:51:19,416 --> 01:51:20,291
times if they're feeding,

1750
01:51:20,625 --> 01:51:22,791
they'll put their spine up.

1751
01:51:23,125 --> 01:51:23,833
Yeah, yeah.

1752
01:51:23,833 --> 01:51:24,708
As a protective measure.

1753
01:51:24,708 --> 01:51:25,250
Have you seen that?

1754
01:51:25,750 --> 01:51:26,208
Yeah.

1755
01:51:26,583 --> 01:51:27,333
Yeah, yeah.

1756
01:51:27,333 --> 01:51:29,041
And so, you know, it's sad.

1757
01:51:30,291 --> 01:51:31,083
Sadly, like whatever it

1758
01:51:31,083 --> 01:51:32,500
was, you know, 15 years later

1759
01:51:32,500 --> 01:51:34,083
when Steve Irwin was

1760
01:51:34,083 --> 01:51:35,833
gotten paled by a thing.

1761
01:51:36,458 --> 01:51:38,333
I knew exactly like, yeah, I

1762
01:51:38,333 --> 01:51:39,541
used to watch those things.

1763
01:51:39,833 --> 01:51:40,041
That would happen.

1764
01:51:40,750 --> 01:51:41,958
I knew exactly what happened.

1765
01:51:41,958 --> 01:51:43,916
Cause you could see swimming along

1766
01:51:44,291 --> 01:51:45,916
if you don't see those rays in the thing.

1767
01:51:45,916 --> 01:51:46,375
And they just like,

1768
01:51:46,541 --> 01:51:48,583
that spine goes up, man.

1769
01:51:48,583 --> 01:51:50,166
You can be in a lot of trouble

1770
01:51:50,166 --> 01:51:50,833
if it hit you in the

1771
01:51:50,833 --> 01:51:52,958
wrong spot and stuff.

1772
01:51:52,958 --> 01:51:53,166
But yeah.

1773
01:51:53,208 --> 01:51:54,791
Now also we should

1774
01:51:54,791 --> 01:51:55,583
mention that Steve Irwin

1775
01:51:55,750 --> 01:51:58,166
was like holding the stingray,

1776
01:51:58,916 --> 01:52:00,916
you know, facing the stinger.

1777
01:52:01,166 --> 01:52:01,875
He wasn't like just

1778
01:52:01,875 --> 01:52:03,333
swimming and it got stuck.

1779
01:52:03,708 --> 01:52:04,500
No, yeah, yeah, right.

1780
01:52:04,791 --> 01:52:05,208
Handling.

1781
01:52:05,208 --> 01:52:05,666
That's not ideal.

1782
01:52:05,958 --> 01:52:06,541
So they know.

1783
01:52:07,041 --> 01:52:07,666
No, no, no, no, no.

1784
01:52:07,666 --> 01:52:08,875
But in very Steve Irwin

1785
01:52:08,875 --> 01:52:10,458
fashion, he was holding it.

1786
01:52:10,500 --> 01:52:11,125
Right. Yeah.

1787
01:52:11,125 --> 01:52:11,666
He right.

1788
01:52:11,666 --> 01:52:12,416
He was trying to show.

1789
01:52:12,416 --> 01:52:13,000
Yeah. Yeah.

1790
01:52:13,000 --> 01:52:13,083
Right.

1791
01:52:13,083 --> 01:52:14,500
He was actually I'm talking, but you

1792
01:52:14,500 --> 01:52:15,625
could be swimming along,

1793
01:52:16,500 --> 01:52:17,500
not looking for rays at

1794
01:52:17,500 --> 01:52:19,125
all and like swim over one.

1795
01:52:19,125 --> 01:52:20,500
You could get not realize it.

1796
01:52:20,500 --> 01:52:20,708
Yeah.

1797
01:52:21,000 --> 01:52:22,500
Cause these blue stingrays and there's

1798
01:52:22,500 --> 01:52:23,416
and they're not the only one.

1799
01:52:23,416 --> 01:52:24,791
They'll come in shallow like that.

1800
01:52:24,833 --> 01:52:27,541
But the fascinating shallow and aggregate

1801
01:52:27,541 --> 01:52:30,000
like like a carpet of them.

1802
01:52:30,083 --> 01:52:30,416
Yeah.

1803
01:52:30,416 --> 01:52:30,750
Yeah.

1804
01:52:30,750 --> 01:52:30,958
Yep.

1805
01:52:31,000 --> 01:52:32,500
And the cool thing about that that we

1806
01:52:32,500 --> 01:52:34,625
always talk I talk about is like that's

1807
01:52:34,625 --> 01:52:36,416
something you just observe, like you see

1808
01:52:36,416 --> 01:52:37,958
that the just sort of laying out there

1809
01:52:37,958 --> 01:52:39,166
and stuff, but it's an interesting

1810
01:52:39,166 --> 01:52:40,875
observation that I don't think people

1811
01:52:40,875 --> 01:52:42,583
really had ever commented on before until

1812
01:52:42,583 --> 01:52:44,375
Paul's thesis that these things

1813
01:52:44,458 --> 01:52:45,750
actually when they're feeding because

1814
01:52:45,750 --> 01:52:48,750
they're busy, they put their spine up

1815
01:52:48,750 --> 01:52:50,083
because well, things like bull sharks

1816
01:52:50,083 --> 01:52:50,791
will like to eat them.

1817
01:52:50,791 --> 01:52:52,125
And there's a few other sharks that like

1818
01:52:52,125 --> 01:52:53,000
to eat those things.

1819
01:52:53,125 --> 01:52:53,958
Seven gill sharks.

1820
01:52:55,041 --> 01:52:56,625
And that's why if you ever have you ever

1821
01:52:56,625 --> 01:52:58,083
have a chance to dissect a bull shark,

1822
01:52:58,083 --> 01:52:59,625
look around the jaws, you'll find like

1823
01:52:59,625 --> 01:53:01,916
just dozens and dozens of stingray spines

1824
01:53:01,916 --> 01:53:03,000
in the mouth of a bull shark.

1825
01:53:03,458 --> 01:53:03,666
Cool.

1826
01:53:04,250 --> 01:53:04,458
Yeah.

1827
01:53:04,833 --> 01:53:05,000
Yeah.

1828
01:53:05,000 --> 01:53:06,625
And same with same with

1829
01:53:06,625 --> 01:53:07,791
the hammerhead sharks, too.

1830
01:53:07,791 --> 01:53:08,625
They love to eat stingrays.

1831
01:53:09,375 --> 01:53:09,500
Yeah.

1832
01:53:09,500 --> 01:53:10,916
You see them hunting stingrays all the

1833
01:53:10,916 --> 01:53:12,000
time in the shallows, right?

1834
01:53:12,000 --> 01:53:12,250
Yeah.

1835
01:53:12,791 --> 01:53:13,375
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

1836
01:53:13,375 --> 01:53:13,625
Yeah.

1837
01:53:14,291 --> 01:53:14,500
Yeah.

1838
01:53:14,750 --> 01:53:15,708
So now so now you're

1839
01:53:15,708 --> 01:53:16,791
back in South Africa.

1840
01:53:16,791 --> 01:53:18,000
You've you've left Timor.

1841
01:53:18,333 --> 01:53:19,458
What's yeah.

1842
01:53:19,708 --> 01:53:20,833
What's what's next for low?

1843
01:53:21,875 --> 01:53:22,791
I don't know.

1844
01:53:23,291 --> 01:53:25,958
So my team or chapter kind of ended, but

1845
01:53:25,958 --> 01:53:26,500
I'm still going to

1846
01:53:26,500 --> 01:53:27,750
continue working in Timor.

1847
01:53:28,500 --> 01:53:30,500
We're working looking at the

1848
01:53:30,500 --> 01:53:31,791
ecosystem on the south coast.

1849
01:53:32,500 --> 01:53:33,625
So we're doing some beta remote

1850
01:53:33,625 --> 01:53:35,875
underwater video so you can

1851
01:53:35,875 --> 01:53:37,125
get an idea of the ecosystem

1852
01:53:37,500 --> 01:53:38,708
function, what's happening.

1853
01:53:39,208 --> 01:53:40,583
And then we're connecting that with the

1854
01:53:40,583 --> 01:53:43,416
communities that live there to understand

1855
01:53:43,583 --> 01:53:45,208
their resource use and how that can

1856
01:53:45,208 --> 01:53:46,125
change into the future.

1857
01:53:46,833 --> 01:53:50,291
So the bigger picture is to help

1858
01:53:50,291 --> 01:53:51,958
communities to kind of adapt.

1859
01:53:52,833 --> 01:53:55,666
But in that is really a first look

1860
01:53:55,666 --> 01:53:58,166
because you're looking

1861
01:53:58,166 --> 01:54:00,000
for almost like if whatever

1862
01:54:00,083 --> 01:54:01,333
reference is, this is

1863
01:54:01,333 --> 01:54:02,333
your reference data.

1864
01:54:02,333 --> 01:54:03,875
This is this is what it is.

1865
01:54:03,875 --> 01:54:04,166
Yeah.

1866
01:54:04,583 --> 01:54:04,791
Yeah.

1867
01:54:05,083 --> 01:54:05,291
Yeah.

1868
01:54:05,291 --> 01:54:05,791
So poor.

1869
01:54:05,791 --> 01:54:06,625
Yeah.

1870
01:54:06,625 --> 01:54:06,833
Yeah.

1871
01:54:06,833 --> 01:54:08,416
So I'll continue to dabble with that.

1872
01:54:09,291 --> 01:54:10,750
But remotely, I'll go

1873
01:54:10,750 --> 01:54:12,500
for field trips and so on.

1874
01:54:12,750 --> 01:54:15,000
And then otherwise, I'm looking around.

1875
01:54:15,458 --> 01:54:15,833
Yeah.

1876
01:54:15,833 --> 01:54:17,750
Looking around for my next full time gig

1877
01:54:17,750 --> 01:54:20,541
and side gigs, multiple side gigs.

1878
01:54:20,541 --> 01:54:21,250
Well, what's it like?

1879
01:54:21,541 --> 01:54:23,583
What is the is it is

1880
01:54:23,583 --> 01:54:25,208
the question for you?

1881
01:54:25,208 --> 01:54:26,916
Like I always ask, you know, a lot of a

1882
01:54:26,916 --> 01:54:27,666
lot of scientists that

1883
01:54:27,666 --> 01:54:29,000
we have on, like, what's

1884
01:54:29,000 --> 01:54:30,416
the question that drives you?

1885
01:54:30,750 --> 01:54:31,750
You know, is it the exploration?

1886
01:54:32,208 --> 01:54:34,166
Is it that initial, like just describing

1887
01:54:34,166 --> 01:54:34,958
a species or

1888
01:54:34,958 --> 01:54:36,666
describing, you know, an ecosystem

1889
01:54:36,916 --> 01:54:38,791
like an east east Timor where you're just

1890
01:54:38,791 --> 01:54:40,666
you're not or Timor

1891
01:54:40,666 --> 01:54:41,541
last day where you just

1892
01:54:41,541 --> 01:54:42,791
don't know what's there

1893
01:54:42,791 --> 01:54:43,750
or what the trends are?

1894
01:54:43,750 --> 01:54:45,250
Is that is that what drives you?

1895
01:54:45,291 --> 01:54:47,541
Is these new habitats and getting new

1896
01:54:47,541 --> 01:54:49,250
information or is there some other

1897
01:54:49,250 --> 01:54:50,500
question that you really

1898
01:54:50,500 --> 01:54:53,250
want to know and you really want to sort

1899
01:54:53,250 --> 01:54:55,541
of indulge in and dive into?

1900
01:54:56,583 --> 01:54:57,000
It's weird.

1901
01:54:57,333 --> 01:54:58,541
Well, it's interesting that you ask that

1902
01:54:58,541 --> 01:54:59,208
because I've been thinking

1903
01:54:59,208 --> 01:55:00,958
that myself, because I feel

1904
01:55:00,958 --> 01:55:02,125
like my career has kind

1905
01:55:02,125 --> 01:55:04,500
of happened haphazardly.

1906
01:55:04,750 --> 01:55:05,833
Like, right, you know,

1907
01:55:05,833 --> 01:55:06,708
there came opportunities.

1908
01:55:06,958 --> 01:55:07,875
I'm like, I can do that.

1909
01:55:07,875 --> 01:55:08,125
Why not?

1910
01:55:08,291 --> 01:55:08,500
Yeah.

1911
01:55:08,750 --> 01:55:09,708
How difficult can it be?

1912
01:55:10,125 --> 01:55:10,708
Very difficult.

1913
01:55:10,958 --> 01:55:12,166
It turned out very different.

1914
01:55:12,166 --> 01:55:13,166
Everything's very difficult.

1915
01:55:13,625 --> 01:55:16,000
And so but now I studied large scale

1916
01:55:16,000 --> 01:55:17,833
marine protected areas, right?

1917
01:55:17,833 --> 01:55:20,291
So it's offshore, deep sea offshore in

1918
01:55:20,291 --> 01:55:21,833
Timor, it's coastal, shallow.

1919
01:55:23,416 --> 01:55:24,416
And both of these

1920
01:55:24,416 --> 01:55:25,958
scenarios were a first look.

1921
01:55:26,166 --> 01:55:26,375
Right.

1922
01:55:26,958 --> 01:55:29,791
But what I find interesting, the more I

1923
01:55:29,791 --> 01:55:31,083
do, what I do is I like

1924
01:55:31,083 --> 01:55:33,291
to go to a place I want

1925
01:55:33,291 --> 01:55:36,208
to insert myself into that place,

1926
01:55:36,208 --> 01:55:38,041
understand it and then

1927
01:55:38,041 --> 01:55:41,125
understand how it works on a local

1928
01:55:41,250 --> 01:55:43,291
scale. Because I think in the sciences,

1929
01:55:43,916 --> 01:55:46,083
well, in my my frame of

1930
01:55:46,083 --> 01:55:47,250
reference, we're going bigger,

1931
01:55:47,250 --> 01:55:48,708
bigger, global, global, global.

1932
01:55:48,750 --> 01:55:48,958
Yes.

1933
01:55:49,208 --> 01:55:50,958
And we're missing the local.

1934
01:55:51,958 --> 01:55:52,166
Yes.

1935
01:55:52,833 --> 01:55:53,000
Yes.

1936
01:55:53,166 --> 01:55:54,250
Coming so generic.

1937
01:55:54,958 --> 01:55:55,375
Absolutely.

1938
01:55:55,750 --> 01:55:56,250
Yeah, you can

1939
01:55:56,250 --> 01:55:59,833
understand the area generically.

1940
01:56:00,583 --> 01:56:02,375
But of course, is it right?

1941
01:56:03,416 --> 01:56:04,875
So I like to spend time.

1942
01:56:04,875 --> 01:56:06,375
So in Timor, I was privileged enough to

1943
01:56:06,375 --> 01:56:07,208
live there for like two

1944
01:56:07,208 --> 01:56:09,916
years and a full year on the

1945
01:56:09,916 --> 01:56:12,166
south coast in a little village.

1946
01:56:13,291 --> 01:56:16,458
And the things you observe, I mean, Dave,

1947
01:56:16,458 --> 01:56:17,500
we drove around where

1948
01:56:17,500 --> 01:56:18,416
people were catching

1949
01:56:18,500 --> 01:56:20,625
fish and we saw no sharks or rays, right?

1950
01:56:21,250 --> 01:56:21,458
Yep.

1951
01:56:21,541 --> 01:56:22,583
But that's just timing.

1952
01:56:23,000 --> 01:56:25,541
I think what really interests me is to is

1953
01:56:25,541 --> 01:56:27,583
to go on on the super local level.

1954
01:56:28,625 --> 01:56:31,000
I always think I like to do kind of pilot

1955
01:56:31,000 --> 01:56:32,291
studies that you can then

1956
01:56:32,291 --> 01:56:34,791
scale to areas and whatever.

1957
01:56:35,208 --> 01:56:40,875
But understanding coastal ecosystems, the

1958
01:56:40,875 --> 01:56:42,916
functioning and what I

1959
01:56:42,916 --> 01:56:44,416
really want to dabble in more,

1960
01:56:44,666 --> 01:56:46,083
which I want to teach myself is more

1961
01:56:46,083 --> 01:56:47,125
thinking about how it

1962
01:56:47,125 --> 01:56:48,458
will change into the future.

1963
01:56:49,250 --> 01:56:50,708
So while I was in Timor, I started

1964
01:56:50,708 --> 01:56:52,166
working marginally

1965
01:56:52,166 --> 01:56:53,625
with ecosystem modeling.

1966
01:56:53,916 --> 01:56:55,791
And I would love to expand that more and

1967
01:56:55,791 --> 01:56:58,458
go to like deep diving into into it.

1968
01:56:58,958 --> 01:57:00,291
And if my brain can

1969
01:57:00,291 --> 01:57:01,708
comprehend things like that.

1970
01:57:02,041 --> 01:57:04,541
So I'm unsure.

1971
01:57:04,791 --> 01:57:06,958
Yeah, I love it.

1972
01:57:08,125 --> 01:57:10,250
And then our final question that we ask

1973
01:57:10,250 --> 01:57:11,958
everybody is, you know, you've been in

1974
01:57:11,958 --> 01:57:14,250
this career for a little bit now.

1975
01:57:14,250 --> 01:57:16,250
You've accomplished quite a bit already

1976
01:57:16,250 --> 01:57:18,875
for people who are just starting out

1977
01:57:18,875 --> 01:57:19,666
their careers that are

1978
01:57:19,666 --> 01:57:20,500
listening to this podcast.

1979
01:57:20,875 --> 01:57:22,250
They want to go into shark science or

1980
01:57:22,250 --> 01:57:23,291
marine science in general.

1981
01:57:23,833 --> 01:57:26,375
What advice would you give them so that

1982
01:57:26,375 --> 01:57:27,500
they can help them on their that might

1983
01:57:27,500 --> 01:57:28,833
help on the journey that would like if

1984
01:57:28,833 --> 01:57:29,625
you're looking back,

1985
01:57:29,625 --> 01:57:31,000
would it help you or that continues to

1986
01:57:31,000 --> 01:57:31,833
help you in the future?

1987
01:57:33,166 --> 01:57:35,875
I think some things that really helped me

1988
01:57:35,875 --> 01:57:39,416
is firstly, take a beat, take time and

1989
01:57:39,416 --> 01:57:40,791
think about your science.

1990
01:57:41,083 --> 01:57:42,375
Think about what you want to do.

1991
01:57:42,375 --> 01:57:43,125
Think about your question.

1992
01:57:43,291 --> 01:57:45,541
Brother Alanson always said to me, you

1993
01:57:45,541 --> 01:57:47,166
know, what you need to go do now is go

1994
01:57:47,166 --> 01:57:48,083
sit in your little hut

1995
01:57:48,083 --> 01:57:49,208
alone and go and think.

1996
01:57:50,000 --> 01:57:50,666
So do that.

1997
01:57:51,708 --> 01:57:51,916
Yeah.

1998
01:57:52,000 --> 01:57:53,916
And then reach out, build your network.

1999
01:57:55,041 --> 01:57:58,208
I have sent a million cold emails to a

2000
01:57:58,208 --> 01:57:59,125
million different people.

2001
01:57:59,750 --> 01:58:01,458
And it doesn't pan out always, but it

2002
01:58:01,458 --> 01:58:02,958
pans out many, many times.

2003
01:58:03,375 --> 01:58:04,541
And then you build your network.

2004
01:58:04,916 --> 01:58:07,333
And what I find useful is any job I then

2005
01:58:07,333 --> 01:58:09,500
do and I need advice from

2006
01:58:09,500 --> 01:58:10,666
somebody that knows more.

2007
01:58:11,000 --> 01:58:13,166
I can reach out and be like, hey, man, or

2008
01:58:13,166 --> 01:58:14,333
I can do nice projects

2009
01:58:14,333 --> 01:58:15,708
with people across the world.

2010
01:58:16,750 --> 01:58:18,458
And then the last thing I always tell

2011
01:58:18,458 --> 01:58:19,541
myself is you don't need

2012
01:58:19,541 --> 01:58:21,458
loads of money or big toys,

2013
01:58:22,375 --> 01:58:24,083
you know, or magic big

2014
01:58:24,083 --> 01:58:25,583
organizations to do things.

2015
01:58:25,958 --> 01:58:27,958
You can go out and do science and do

2016
01:58:27,958 --> 01:58:29,166
research and do it, do

2017
01:58:29,166 --> 01:58:31,375
cool stuff on bare minimum.

2018
01:58:32,333 --> 01:58:32,541
Yeah.

2019
01:58:33,041 --> 01:58:33,541
That's true.

2020
01:58:34,375 --> 01:58:34,583
Yeah.

2021
01:58:34,791 --> 01:58:36,208
So especially countries like South

2022
01:58:36,208 --> 01:58:37,291
Africa, I mean, Iran

2023
01:58:37,291 --> 01:58:39,208
just doesn't do well, right?

2024
01:58:40,708 --> 01:58:42,333
People don't get big funding, but you can

2025
01:58:42,333 --> 01:58:43,541
still do cool stuff.

2026
01:58:44,208 --> 01:58:44,458
Yeah.

2027
01:58:44,458 --> 01:58:45,375
You don't need to wait for that.

2028
01:58:45,625 --> 01:58:47,291
A lot of it's networking too when you

2029
01:58:47,291 --> 01:58:48,500
when you agree networking.

2030
01:58:49,625 --> 01:58:50,416
Hugely so.

2031
01:58:50,833 --> 01:58:53,208
I mean, the pick me seahorse, the pick me

2032
01:58:53,208 --> 01:58:54,458
pipe horse to work with you.

2033
01:58:55,125 --> 01:58:56,208
Many of that thing we

2034
01:58:56,208 --> 01:58:57,500
had no funding, no funding.

2035
01:58:58,041 --> 01:58:59,291
Yeah, we paid our own way.

2036
01:58:59,583 --> 01:58:59,916
Yeah.

2037
01:59:00,083 --> 01:59:00,375
Yeah.

2038
01:59:00,708 --> 01:59:02,166
So just do that, man.

2039
01:59:02,666 --> 01:59:03,625
Yeah. Do the fun things.

2040
01:59:04,208 --> 01:59:04,458
Well, yeah.

2041
01:59:04,458 --> 01:59:04,666
Yeah.

2042
01:59:04,791 --> 01:59:05,791
Well, look, low.

2043
01:59:05,791 --> 01:59:06,416
This has been awesome.

2044
01:59:06,625 --> 01:59:06,958
Awesome.

2045
01:59:06,958 --> 01:59:08,625
I knew you'd be a great guest and we're

2046
01:59:08,625 --> 01:59:10,208
going to be having we're

2047
01:59:10,208 --> 01:59:11,333
going to be having a one of

2048
01:59:11,375 --> 01:59:13,125
one of the upcoming Searching for Lost

2049
01:59:13,125 --> 01:59:14,000
Sharks episodes going

2050
01:59:14,000 --> 01:59:15,000
to be on Timor Lesty.

2051
01:59:15,000 --> 01:59:16,000
And it's going to be

2052
01:59:16,000 --> 01:59:17,875
coming up here in 2026.

2053
01:59:18,416 --> 01:59:20,958
And we'll have you back on to talk about

2054
01:59:20,958 --> 01:59:22,750
the episode when it comes out.

2055
01:59:22,750 --> 01:59:23,583
And then we'll get really dive.

2056
01:59:23,583 --> 01:59:24,041
Dive.

2057
01:59:24,416 --> 01:59:25,416
Deep about Timor.

2058
01:59:25,666 --> 01:59:26,583
Yeah, we'll get we'll

2059
01:59:26,583 --> 01:59:27,583
do a real deep dive.

2060
01:59:27,583 --> 01:59:28,791
We didn't get real into it here, but

2061
01:59:28,791 --> 01:59:30,625
we'll do a deep dive in the team or less.

2062
01:59:30,625 --> 01:59:32,250
The a fascinating country I had.

2063
01:59:32,625 --> 01:59:33,875
I have to say, thanks to you.

2064
01:59:33,875 --> 01:59:35,375
I had such I just one of the one of the

2065
01:59:35,375 --> 01:59:37,000
highlights of my my career.

2066
01:59:37,000 --> 01:59:37,750
It was doing that.

2067
01:59:37,750 --> 01:59:38,416
That's awesome.

2068
01:59:38,416 --> 01:59:39,333
Because I know you've been everywhere.

2069
01:59:40,083 --> 01:59:41,666
Yeah, no, it was that was that was that

2070
01:59:41,666 --> 01:59:44,125
was a real it was it was so unexpected.

2071
01:59:44,708 --> 01:59:47,208
And you just made the trip so wonderful.

2072
01:59:47,500 --> 01:59:49,208
And now all the ancillary

2073
01:59:49,208 --> 01:59:50,375
projects coming from it.

2074
01:59:50,583 --> 01:59:51,750
So yeah, be great.

2075
01:59:51,833 --> 01:59:53,250
So anyway, so anyway,

2076
01:59:53,250 --> 01:59:53,583
thank you very much.

2077
01:59:53,666 --> 01:59:55,791
So we'll be in touch with you guys.

2078
01:59:55,791 --> 01:59:56,791
And thank you for the

2079
01:59:56,791 --> 01:59:57,666
yeah for having me on.

2080
01:59:57,666 --> 01:59:58,458
This is so much fun.

2081
01:59:58,958 --> 01:59:59,583
Yeah, yeah, you bet.

2082
01:59:59,583 --> 02:00:00,250
We loved it.

2083
02:00:00,250 --> 02:00:01,458
I can't wait to have you back on again.

2084
02:00:02,083 --> 02:00:02,291
Awesome.

2085
02:00:03,125 --> 02:00:03,583
Thank you.

2086
02:00:03,583 --> 02:00:04,833
Thank you, love, for joining us on

2087
02:00:04,833 --> 02:00:05,791
today's episode of

2088
02:00:05,791 --> 02:00:06,875
the Beyond Jaws podcast.

2089
02:00:07,208 --> 02:00:08,291
What an episode.

2090
02:00:08,833 --> 02:00:09,625
We got into a lot of things.

2091
02:00:09,625 --> 02:00:10,416
We got sidetracked a

2092
02:00:10,416 --> 02:00:11,541
lot, which was a lot of fun.

2093
02:00:12,000 --> 02:00:13,666
You know, we're having like just a great

2094
02:00:13,666 --> 02:00:15,375
conversation when

2095
02:00:15,375 --> 02:00:16,625
we're we get sidetracked

2096
02:00:16,625 --> 02:00:18,125
and talk about little, you know, just

2097
02:00:18,125 --> 02:00:19,041
little things, how things

2098
02:00:19,041 --> 02:00:20,875
have changed and just sort

2099
02:00:20,916 --> 02:00:24,416
of like how things have, you know, how

2100
02:00:24,416 --> 02:00:25,500
things came to be, which

2101
02:00:25,500 --> 02:00:26,458
I think is kind of fun,

2102
02:00:26,458 --> 02:00:27,791
like going through that history, which

2103
02:00:27,791 --> 02:00:29,583
you don't know about all the

2104
02:00:29,583 --> 02:00:31,416
time until you talk to people.

2105
02:00:31,416 --> 02:00:33,833
This is why I think podcasting and

2106
02:00:33,833 --> 02:00:36,208
speaking and networking is so important,

2107
02:00:36,458 --> 02:00:37,416
because you start to

2108
02:00:37,416 --> 02:00:40,125
hear those stories of little things that

2109
02:00:40,125 --> 02:00:40,916
happen. I don't think we

2110
02:00:40,916 --> 02:00:42,208
recorded, but we talked a lot

2111
02:00:42,250 --> 02:00:45,083
after about how, you know, white sharks

2112
02:00:45,083 --> 02:00:46,375
were protected back in the

2113
02:00:46,375 --> 02:00:47,583
day and, you know, and how

2114
02:00:47,625 --> 02:00:49,000
all that kind of got together, which

2115
02:00:49,000 --> 02:00:49,875
we'll probably do an

2116
02:00:49,875 --> 02:00:51,250
entire episode just on that,

2117
02:00:51,250 --> 02:00:52,458
because it's such a crazy story.

2118
02:00:53,125 --> 02:00:54,708
But it's just kind of cool to go and

2119
02:00:54,708 --> 02:00:56,958
recount some of these things and go back

2120
02:00:56,958 --> 02:00:58,958
in time to look at how things

2121
02:00:58,958 --> 02:01:00,333
are done here and how the perspectives

2122
02:01:00,333 --> 02:01:02,750
have changed in a span of a few decades,

2123
02:01:02,750 --> 02:01:04,250
which I think is really cool.

2124
02:01:04,250 --> 02:01:06,291
Dave, like, what did you get out of this

2125
02:01:06,291 --> 02:01:06,958
interview other than

2126
02:01:06,958 --> 02:01:08,000
going down memory lane?

2127
02:01:09,791 --> 02:01:11,750
I think the thing with Loa is that she

2128
02:01:11,750 --> 02:01:12,875
just has a broad

2129
02:01:12,875 --> 02:01:14,208
interest, which I think is really,

2130
02:01:14,666 --> 02:01:16,208
it's really important. A lot of people,

2131
02:01:16,208 --> 02:01:16,708
like, you know, we've

2132
02:01:16,708 --> 02:01:17,791
had, we've talked to people,

2133
02:01:18,208 --> 02:01:20,041
I do and you do and stuff, whether on the

2134
02:01:20,041 --> 02:01:21,416
podcast or just in person.

2135
02:01:22,125 --> 02:01:23,000
And especially a lot of young

2136
02:01:23,000 --> 02:01:24,458
people think like, Oh, if I want to do

2137
02:01:24,458 --> 02:01:25,416
sharks, I need to be doing

2138
02:01:25,416 --> 02:01:27,041
sharks, like from day one,

2139
02:01:27,041 --> 02:01:28,333
blah, blah, blah, blah. And certainly

2140
02:01:28,333 --> 02:01:29,750
some of us, I mean, I was kind of always

2141
02:01:29,750 --> 02:01:30,666
into the shark thing

2142
02:01:30,666 --> 02:01:33,208
early on. But, you know, someone like Loa

2143
02:01:33,208 --> 02:01:33,958
took her kind of a

2144
02:01:33,958 --> 02:01:35,500
circuitous route to get there.

2145
02:01:35,500 --> 02:01:37,291
I mean, she grew up, we've had other

2146
02:01:37,291 --> 02:01:38,208
guests on there. She grew

2147
02:01:38,208 --> 02:01:39,500
up inland, basically in a

2148
02:01:39,541 --> 02:01:41,458
mining town in the middle of South

2149
02:01:41,458 --> 02:01:45,125
Africa. And, you know, kind of she slowly

2150
02:01:45,125 --> 02:01:46,125
came around to getting

2151
02:01:46,125 --> 02:01:48,416
into marine science, did her PhD working

2152
02:01:48,416 --> 02:01:49,750
on in an estuary

2153
02:01:49,750 --> 02:01:54,000
environment. And then through different

2154
02:01:55,208 --> 02:01:58,166
networking, basically, she ended up

2155
02:01:58,166 --> 02:01:59,708
working on sharks and her

2156
02:01:59,708 --> 02:02:00,708
and I have done a couple papers

2157
02:02:00,708 --> 02:02:02,750
now. Now we have this project going on in

2158
02:02:02,750 --> 02:02:04,041
Timor Leste with Adriana

2159
02:02:04,041 --> 02:02:06,958
Pestana. And it's just a real,

2160
02:02:07,208 --> 02:02:09,416
it's just one of those. It's I think it's

2161
02:02:09,416 --> 02:02:10,375
a great story. It's kind of

2162
02:02:10,375 --> 02:02:11,500
showed you how things can come

2163
02:02:11,500 --> 02:02:13,791
along. And even if you maybe didn't start

2164
02:02:13,791 --> 02:02:15,708
off doing sharks, you can kind of find

2165
02:02:15,708 --> 02:02:16,666
your way there eventually.

2166
02:02:16,875 --> 02:02:18,500
And even if you're someone who wanted to

2167
02:02:18,500 --> 02:02:20,166
do sharks early, you have sometimes take

2168
02:02:20,166 --> 02:02:21,500
a different path to get there.

2169
02:02:22,291 --> 02:02:24,583
And so I think Loa's story is a great

2170
02:02:24,583 --> 02:02:26,208
one. She just really had a passion for

2171
02:02:26,208 --> 02:02:26,916
the marine environment.

2172
02:02:27,333 --> 02:02:28,541
She really enjoys working in the

2173
02:02:28,541 --> 02:02:30,500
communities and while he's developing

2174
02:02:30,500 --> 02:02:31,625
countries and certainly

2175
02:02:31,833 --> 02:02:33,750
having been for her being in Palau and

2176
02:02:33,750 --> 02:02:35,250
Timor Leste, those are

2177
02:02:35,250 --> 02:02:36,708
certain areas to be in.

2178
02:02:37,041 --> 02:02:38,500
And it's an adventure too. She's

2179
02:02:38,500 --> 02:02:41,125
definitely got that explorer gene to go

2180
02:02:41,125 --> 02:02:42,250
to look around. I mean,

2181
02:02:42,250 --> 02:02:44,500
she just really thrives on it. And I can

2182
02:02:44,500 --> 02:02:45,291
tell you from being in

2183
02:02:45,291 --> 02:02:47,333
having gone there and explored

2184
02:02:47,375 --> 02:02:49,750
Timor Leste with her, that's an

2185
02:02:49,750 --> 02:02:53,583
adventure. That's for sure. But it was

2186
02:02:53,583 --> 02:02:55,125
just really wonderful.

2187
02:02:55,458 --> 02:02:57,375
I knew she was kind of getting to know

2188
02:02:57,375 --> 02:02:58,000
her. I knew she'd be

2189
02:02:58,000 --> 02:02:59,083
somebody to be really good. She's

2190
02:02:59,125 --> 02:03:01,833
just kind of getting into the shark

2191
02:03:01,833 --> 02:03:03,666
world. So like, stay tuned. We'll see

2192
02:03:03,666 --> 02:03:04,916
what big things she has

2193
02:03:05,208 --> 02:03:08,083
coming up in the future. And if you're

2194
02:03:08,083 --> 02:03:09,375
out there looking for a

2195
02:03:09,375 --> 02:03:11,375
really good teammate and stuff,

2196
02:03:11,375 --> 02:03:13,125
you're an employer, she's looking around

2197
02:03:13,125 --> 02:03:14,875
for some other job opportunities now,

2198
02:03:15,166 --> 02:03:15,916
which I think is good.

2199
02:03:16,583 --> 02:03:18,541
It really, you definitely build up more

2200
02:03:18,541 --> 02:03:19,541
of a portfolio moving

2201
02:03:19,541 --> 02:03:20,791
around a little bit to different

2202
02:03:20,791 --> 02:03:22,916
job opportunities and stuff. You learn

2203
02:03:22,916 --> 02:03:24,458
more, you get with her, she

2204
02:03:24,458 --> 02:03:25,916
has more of a global perspective.

2205
02:03:25,916 --> 02:03:28,708
And we talked, as you know, we talked

2206
02:03:28,708 --> 02:03:31,416
both on air and off air about just when

2207
02:03:31,416 --> 02:03:32,625
you're working a lot of these countries

2208
02:03:32,625 --> 02:03:35,000
like Timor Leste or Palau or

2209
02:03:35,333 --> 02:03:37,208
or Madagascar stuff, you know, you really

2210
02:03:37,208 --> 02:03:39,333
get in, you know, especially you and I,

2211
02:03:39,333 --> 02:03:40,666
you come from Canada, I mean, from the

2212
02:03:40,666 --> 02:03:42,041
US, you get home, man,

2213
02:03:42,041 --> 02:03:42,791
from one of these trips.

2214
02:03:43,000 --> 02:03:45,625
I know I do and Moda is a whole new

2215
02:03:45,625 --> 02:03:46,875
perspective. It's like, what are our

2216
02:03:46,875 --> 02:03:48,500
problems here? Christ,

2217
02:03:48,500 --> 02:03:49,583
you don't have any problems.

2218
02:03:50,375 --> 02:03:52,041
Yeah, when you think about comparative

2219
02:03:52,041 --> 02:03:53,666
what people what people go through or

2220
02:03:53,666 --> 02:03:55,125
have gone through and getting over that

2221
02:03:55,125 --> 02:03:58,625
trauma of wars and civil wars and, you

2222
02:03:58,625 --> 02:04:01,166
know, droughts and, you know, everything,

2223
02:04:01,166 --> 02:04:02,166
right? There's there's a lot of stuff

2224
02:04:02,166 --> 02:04:04,750
that's going on today, where you just,

2225
02:04:04,750 --> 02:04:07,500
you just don't don't realize it. When you

2226
02:04:07,500 --> 02:04:09,375
come home, you're like, oh, okay, cool.

2227
02:04:09,375 --> 02:04:11,041
Like, the stuff that we're talking about

2228
02:04:11,041 --> 02:04:13,250
is stuff still needs to be talked about.

2229
02:04:13,708 --> 02:04:15,000
But when you look at the world

2230
02:04:15,000 --> 02:04:16,458
perspective, you're like, no, actually,

2231
02:04:16,458 --> 02:04:17,791
you might, you know, doing pretty okay

2232
02:04:17,791 --> 02:04:18,791
over here. So, oh,

2233
02:04:18,791 --> 02:04:19,666
yeah, definitely privileged.

2234
02:04:19,833 --> 02:04:21,333
And that you and I, you know, living in

2235
02:04:21,333 --> 02:04:24,208
the countries that we do. And it's kind

2236
02:04:24,208 --> 02:04:26,458
of nice in that way. Very appreciated.

2237
02:04:26,708 --> 02:04:28,583
Hopefully, it doesn't flip another way,

2238
02:04:28,583 --> 02:04:31,500
you know, in time. But, you know, what's

2239
02:04:31,500 --> 02:04:33,125
what's what I found interesting about

2240
02:04:33,125 --> 02:04:35,833
this interview was the fact that like, no

2241
02:04:35,833 --> 02:04:38,166
matter what era you grow up in,

2242
02:04:38,666 --> 02:04:40,500
networking is still the number one thing.

2243
02:04:40,500 --> 02:04:42,583
Yes, look at a career, right? Like, I

2244
02:04:42,583 --> 02:04:44,958
remember, you know, talking to people,

2245
02:04:45,625 --> 02:04:46,875
the name is Kisharina, but talking to

2246
02:04:46,875 --> 02:04:47,875
people that we've talked to on this

2247
02:04:47,875 --> 02:04:49,833
podcast before, where, you know, when, you know, when, you know,

2248
02:04:50,208 --> 02:04:51,791
back in the 80s, 90s, they were writing

2249
02:04:51,791 --> 02:04:54,500
letters to different professors. And so,

2250
02:04:54,500 --> 02:04:55,541
and that's how they were communicating.

2251
02:04:55,750 --> 02:04:57,000
Yeah, you were doing it too. And that's

2252
02:04:57,000 --> 02:04:58,583
how they were communicating. And in this

2253
02:04:58,583 --> 02:05:01,416
one, Lowe's like, yeah, I just, I just, I

2254
02:05:01,416 --> 02:05:03,833
spam an email people, I just send email

2255
02:05:03,833 --> 02:05:05,916
to people, like, not spam email, as in,

2256
02:05:05,916 --> 02:05:07,833
like, give them spam, but also connect

2257
02:05:07,833 --> 02:05:09,416
with them to talk to them. The ones that

2258
02:05:09,416 --> 02:05:11,500
reply end up developing really great

2259
02:05:11,500 --> 02:05:12,875
professional relationships with them. I

2260
02:05:12,875 --> 02:05:14,833
mean, that's how you got to know her,

2261
02:05:14,833 --> 02:05:16,375
like, through email, not instead of her

2262
02:05:16,375 --> 02:05:17,875
kind of contacting you, but like, you

2263
02:05:17,875 --> 02:05:19,291
guys contacting each other through

2264
02:05:19,833 --> 02:05:21,958
email, and just being like, Hey, like,

2265
02:05:21,958 --> 02:05:23,000
let's, let's work together and you have

2266
02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:25,125
two papers together. I think networking

2267
02:05:25,125 --> 02:05:28,041
is still the thing that no matter what,

2268
02:05:28,250 --> 02:05:30,958
what technology is around, it's still the

2269
02:05:30,958 --> 02:05:33,708
biggest thing. When we look at how people

2270
02:05:33,708 --> 02:05:36,541
are moving forward and how people are

2271
02:05:36,541 --> 02:05:38,541
trying to, you know, create

2272
02:05:38,541 --> 02:05:41,208
opportunities, and knowing people and

2273
02:05:41,208 --> 02:05:42,833
being available, like sometimes just

2274
02:05:42,833 --> 02:05:45,500
sitting in the same room as something,

2275
02:05:46,083 --> 02:05:47,500
you know, as like when people are talking

2276
02:05:47,500 --> 02:05:48,958
about a project, they need something.

2277
02:05:49,875 --> 02:05:52,541
And, you know, low was on a field trip.

2278
02:05:53,083 --> 02:05:54,458
And he's like, Oh, yeah, if I like, it'd

2279
02:05:54,458 --> 02:05:56,500
be really cool to and her professor was

2280
02:05:56,500 --> 02:05:58,541
like, it'd be really cool to know more

2281
02:05:58,541 --> 02:06:00,250
about the seahorse. And it was like,

2282
02:06:00,250 --> 02:06:01,500
well, if you ever ever have money, I'll,

2283
02:06:01,500 --> 02:06:03,291
I'll do that work. And all of a sudden,

2284
02:06:03,291 --> 02:06:04,833
like, you know, a couple of weeks later,

2285
02:06:04,833 --> 02:06:06,666
a couple months later, she gets a she

2286
02:06:06,666 --> 02:06:09,208
gets an email or she she responds to him

2287
02:06:09,208 --> 02:06:10,750
or checks in with them follows up and

2288
02:06:10,750 --> 02:06:12,125
says, Hey, by the way, I was serious

2289
02:06:12,125 --> 02:06:14,458
about that. Just a follow up, just a

2290
02:06:14,458 --> 02:06:16,208
quick email saying, Hey, by the way,

2291
02:06:16,458 --> 02:06:17,625
still interested in that and then it

2292
02:06:17,625 --> 02:06:19,208
develops into a whole new thing.

2293
02:06:20,041 --> 02:06:23,291
You can't like this is I tell people all

2294
02:06:23,291 --> 02:06:25,208
the time, I tell my daughter as well,

2295
02:06:25,208 --> 02:06:27,750
it's when you get into university, when

2296
02:06:27,750 --> 02:06:30,875
you get to that level, your professors, I

2297
02:06:30,875 --> 02:06:32,625
know they're as intimidating as they can

2298
02:06:32,625 --> 02:06:35,166
be when you first start. The biggest

2299
02:06:35,166 --> 02:06:37,791
thing is getting to know them, you know,

2300
02:06:37,791 --> 02:06:40,375
not as not just as a student to teacher

2301
02:06:40,375 --> 02:06:42,375
kind of thing, but also as like

2302
02:06:42,375 --> 02:06:44,708
colleagues, you know, get to know the

2303
02:06:44,708 --> 02:06:46,250
research that they're doing, get to know

2304
02:06:46,250 --> 02:06:46,958
the work that they're

2305
02:06:46,958 --> 02:06:48,041
doing, but get to know them.

2306
02:06:48,833 --> 02:06:50,583
And then you never know what's going to

2307
02:06:50,583 --> 02:06:52,041
happen. I'm not saying it's guaranteed

2308
02:06:52,041 --> 02:06:53,875
that opportunities come, but when an

2309
02:06:53,875 --> 02:06:55,166
opportunity arrives and you're in the

2310
02:06:55,166 --> 02:06:56,541
right place at the right time, talking to

2311
02:06:56,541 --> 02:06:59,041
the right person, you just might be there

2312
02:06:59,041 --> 02:07:00,958
just by just by happenstance.

2313
02:07:01,625 --> 02:07:03,958
I, I, you know, I haven't told the story

2314
02:07:03,958 --> 02:07:05,458
on air. It's a little longer story. I'll

2315
02:07:05,458 --> 02:07:07,791
tell sometime. I tell it when I give

2316
02:07:07,791 --> 02:07:09,833
public talks, but when I was an

2317
02:07:09,833 --> 02:07:11,458
undergraduate at Humboldt State, just

2318
02:07:11,458 --> 02:07:13,458
finishing up my last getting ready to

2319
02:07:13,458 --> 02:07:16,166
start my last semester, I literally had a

2320
02:07:16,166 --> 02:07:17,500
cup of coffee with a professor.

2321
02:07:18,625 --> 02:07:22,041
There and that cup of coffee led me to

2322
02:07:22,041 --> 02:07:22,958
grad school and

2323
02:07:22,958 --> 02:07:24,458
eventually led me to South Africa.

2324
02:07:25,541 --> 02:07:26,958
Yeah, I was just a couple crazy, right?

2325
02:07:27,541 --> 02:07:29,791
And so like, yeah, I mean, I never would

2326
02:07:29,791 --> 02:07:32,708
have the whole my entire trajectory in

2327
02:07:32,708 --> 02:07:34,916
life changed over a cup of coffee.

2328
02:07:35,500 --> 02:07:36,833
Yeah, and it was just like, and I was

2329
02:07:36,833 --> 02:07:39,500
like, whatever, 21 years old at the time,

2330
02:07:39,500 --> 02:07:41,166
I just, yeah, and it was just a, and

2331
02:07:41,166 --> 02:07:42,833
literally, I was just a guy, a professor.

2332
02:07:42,833 --> 02:07:43,833
I had a class with, I knew him.

2333
02:07:43,875 --> 02:07:46,041
He just asked what I was doing when I

2334
02:07:46,041 --> 02:07:48,875
finished up. And I told him what I was

2335
02:07:48,875 --> 02:07:50,166
interested in. He said, well, let's go

2336
02:07:50,166 --> 02:07:54,041
have a cup of coffee. And we did. And my

2337
02:07:54,041 --> 02:07:56,000
whole my entire trajectory and that and

2338
02:07:56,000 --> 02:07:57,208
so like, and those kind of the same

2339
02:07:57,208 --> 02:07:58,833
thing, her old trajectory changed because

2340
02:07:58,833 --> 02:08:00,041
certain things that have happened.

2341
02:08:00,333 --> 02:08:04,500
And so you just never know what, what

2342
02:08:04,500 --> 02:08:07,625
point in life some some cup of coffee or

2343
02:08:07,625 --> 02:08:08,541
some could take could

2344
02:08:08,541 --> 02:08:09,333
change your whole life.

2345
02:08:09,833 --> 02:08:12,916
Mine was mine was based off an email. I

2346
02:08:12,916 --> 02:08:15,250
remember my last my last year, my last

2347
02:08:15,250 --> 02:08:17,125
semester of my undergrad, I did a

2348
02:08:17,125 --> 02:08:19,791
presentation when I did the presentation,

2349
02:08:19,791 --> 02:08:23,375
one of the critiques that the what my my

2350
02:08:23,375 --> 02:08:25,708
to be advisor was saying, who was my

2351
02:08:25,708 --> 02:08:27,333
teacher at the time, saying that we don't know enough about physical

2352
02:08:27,333 --> 02:08:30,375
oceanography. A lot of people when he

2353
02:08:30,375 --> 02:08:31,833
said I was up, you know, presenting this

2354
02:08:31,833 --> 02:08:34,125
is like the the remarks afterwards. A lot

2355
02:08:34,125 --> 02:08:35,125
of people in the class thought he was

2356
02:08:35,125 --> 02:08:37,291
insulting me that I didn't know much, you

2357
02:08:37,291 --> 02:08:38,583
know, and at some point, you're like, oh,

2358
02:08:38,583 --> 02:08:40,708
well, that was kind of harsh. But after

2359
02:08:40,708 --> 02:08:42,708
that, a year after that, maybe a year and

2360
02:08:42,708 --> 02:08:44,583
a half after that, I'm out at sea in the

2361
02:08:44,583 --> 02:08:46,916
Gulf of Mexico doing work. And I'm doing

2362
02:08:46,916 --> 02:08:48,041
all this stuff. I'm learning about

2363
02:08:48,041 --> 02:08:49,583
physical oceanography and all this kind

2364
02:08:49,583 --> 02:08:51,041
of stuff and learning through like real

2365
02:08:51,041 --> 02:08:52,958
world kind of experience. And I remember

2366
02:08:52,958 --> 02:08:54,916
when I got back to land after one trip, I

2367
02:08:54,916 --> 02:08:56,458
emailed him like, hey, I'm not sure if

2368
02:08:56,458 --> 02:08:57,333
you remember this, but you did a great job. And I was like, hey, I'm going to do a lot of stuff. And I was like, hey, I'm going to do a lot of stuff. And I was like, hey, I'm going to do a lot of stuff. And I was like, hey,

2369
02:08:57,333 --> 02:08:59,500
I told the whole scenario. Like at first

2370
02:08:59,500 --> 02:09:01,000
I took it as an insult. And then I'm out

2371
02:09:01,000 --> 02:09:02,000
here in the middle of

2372
02:09:02,000 --> 02:09:03,625
Gulf of Mexico. And I realized you were

2373
02:09:03,625 --> 02:09:04,875
right. And I'm like, I

2374
02:09:04,875 --> 02:09:06,000
didn't know enough about physical

2375
02:09:06,125 --> 02:09:07,958
not because like, I didn't want to know

2376
02:09:07,958 --> 02:09:09,875
it's just I or it just wasn't taught in

2377
02:09:09,875 --> 02:09:11,416
our program. Right? He

2378
02:09:11,416 --> 02:09:13,791
responds, Hey, thanks for letting me know

2379
02:09:13,791 --> 02:09:14,750
I'm right. Do you want

2380
02:09:14,750 --> 02:09:15,833
to do a master's with me?

2381
02:09:16,875 --> 02:09:18,875
Just from email, you know, and maybe I

2382
02:09:18,875 --> 02:09:20,500
like coaxed him a little bit. But I know,

2383
02:09:21,208 --> 02:09:22,750
I didn't I didn't ask for a master's. I

2384
02:09:22,750 --> 02:09:23,458
didn't I just said, Hey,

2385
02:09:23,458 --> 02:09:24,291
you know what, I want to

2386
02:09:24,291 --> 02:09:27,125
acknowledge that you were right. And and

2387
02:09:27,125 --> 02:09:28,666
I felt bad at the time.

2388
02:09:28,666 --> 02:09:29,791
But now I feel better about

2389
02:09:29,791 --> 02:09:31,916
myself that I'm learning this and thing.

2390
02:09:31,916 --> 02:09:33,583
And maybe if I look back, I would do a

2391
02:09:33,583 --> 02:09:34,250
little bit more real

2392
02:09:34,250 --> 02:09:36,083
world stuff when I was an undergrad. And

2393
02:09:36,083 --> 02:09:36,958
then all of a sudden, I'm doing a

2394
02:09:36,958 --> 02:09:37,958
master's out at Acadia

2395
02:09:37,958 --> 02:09:40,250
with him in within the year, you know,

2396
02:09:40,916 --> 02:09:42,333
crazy thing. And you weren't even

2397
02:09:42,333 --> 02:09:43,333
planning to do a master's,

2398
02:09:43,333 --> 02:09:45,208
right? I was planning to do a master's at

2399
02:09:45,208 --> 02:09:46,833
some point, but I didn't

2400
02:09:46,833 --> 02:09:47,791
know what and I didn't know

2401
02:09:47,791 --> 02:09:49,458
when I didn't know who so I was still

2402
02:09:49,458 --> 02:09:51,333
working at that point. I mean, I was I

2403
02:09:51,333 --> 02:09:51,958
was enjoying myself.

2404
02:09:52,708 --> 02:09:53,625
You're having a good time.

2405
02:09:53,875 --> 02:09:55,416
Both. So I'm having a great time just out

2406
02:09:55,416 --> 02:09:56,125
of university and

2407
02:09:56,125 --> 02:09:57,416
stuff. Right. Yeah. But yeah,

2408
02:09:57,416 --> 02:09:59,000
like, but it was just, you know, and I

2409
02:09:59,000 --> 02:09:59,625
didn't, I didn't

2410
02:09:59,625 --> 02:10:01,041
necessarily have the marks to get into

2411
02:10:01,041 --> 02:10:02,916
a school to do a makeup semester. And,

2412
02:10:03,000 --> 02:10:04,291
you know, but yeah, but the

2413
02:10:04,291 --> 02:10:05,375
fact that I had the technician,

2414
02:10:05,666 --> 02:10:09,000
like the technician experience, yeah,

2415
02:10:09,375 --> 02:10:11,750
really made it valuable to him

2416
02:10:11,750 --> 02:10:13,041
because I worked for him as a

2417
02:10:13,041 --> 02:10:16,500
technician in the summers. And so even

2418
02:10:16,500 --> 02:10:17,958
before my graduate work, I

2419
02:10:17,958 --> 02:10:19,541
was wandering around Nova Scotia

2420
02:10:19,666 --> 02:10:21,791
in a little boat with a with a with an

2421
02:10:21,791 --> 02:10:23,583
undergrad. And we were, you

2422
02:10:23,583 --> 02:10:24,875
know, doing water quality stuff

2423
02:10:24,958 --> 02:10:27,000
in estuaries. It was fun. It was so I had

2424
02:10:27,000 --> 02:10:28,000
such a great time doing

2425
02:10:28,000 --> 02:10:29,458
it. Plus, I got to see what

2426
02:10:29,458 --> 02:10:30,958
Nova Scotia was like, I'd never been down

2427
02:10:30,958 --> 02:10:32,416
to East. And so it was a lot

2428
02:10:32,416 --> 02:10:33,708
of fun to do that. But again,

2429
02:10:33,708 --> 02:10:35,958
it comes down to just like messaging

2430
02:10:35,958 --> 02:10:36,958
something after you hearing

2431
02:10:36,958 --> 02:10:38,916
even if it's a critique, you

2432
02:10:38,916 --> 02:10:40,083
know, even if it was something like, I

2433
02:10:40,083 --> 02:10:41,083
don't know if he meant he

2434
02:10:41,083 --> 02:10:42,458
was like, he was kind of harsh,

2435
02:10:42,458 --> 02:10:44,125
he was like old school kind of that way.

2436
02:10:44,125 --> 02:10:46,166
But it was after a critique.

2437
02:10:46,166 --> 02:10:47,125
And I said, Hey, you know what,

2438
02:10:47,500 --> 02:10:48,875
I should acknowledge that you were right

2439
02:10:48,875 --> 02:10:50,041
at that point, you know, I

2440
02:10:50,041 --> 02:10:51,500
never realized it until now,

2441
02:10:51,500 --> 02:10:53,000
but you were right. And next thing you

2442
02:10:53,000 --> 02:10:54,458
know, you know, hey, why

2443
02:10:54,458 --> 02:10:55,291
don't you come let's discuss the

2444
02:10:55,291 --> 02:10:57,708
masters, you know, and we did a masters

2445
02:10:57,708 --> 02:10:59,250
together. So the networking

2446
02:10:59,250 --> 02:11:00,875
is probably the most important

2447
02:11:00,875 --> 02:11:02,958
part. You know, if you can go to

2448
02:11:02,958 --> 02:11:04,583
conferences, go to conferences, if you

2449
02:11:04,583 --> 02:11:05,625
can, you know, if you're in

2450
02:11:05,625 --> 02:11:07,416
university, go talk to your professors,

2451
02:11:07,583 --> 02:11:09,166
they do not want to hurt you,

2452
02:11:09,166 --> 02:11:10,375
they do not want to harm you,

2453
02:11:10,666 --> 02:11:11,833
you know, they don't want to make you

2454
02:11:11,833 --> 02:11:12,833
feel bad, you know,

2455
02:11:12,833 --> 02:11:13,625
you'll get some that are great,

2456
02:11:13,666 --> 02:11:15,791
some that are awful in every everybody

2457
02:11:15,791 --> 02:11:17,166
else in the middle. But but

2458
02:11:17,166 --> 02:11:18,583
that's the networking is the

2459
02:11:18,583 --> 02:11:19,750
biggest thing. Well, the nice thing of

2460
02:11:19,750 --> 02:11:20,833
going to conferences to

2461
02:11:20,833 --> 02:11:22,500
network is that everybody's usually

2462
02:11:22,500 --> 02:11:24,000
there that you want to talk to, or most

2463
02:11:24,000 --> 02:11:25,416
of them, let's say, true, and

2464
02:11:25,416 --> 02:11:26,166
you can all the other things

2465
02:11:26,166 --> 02:11:28,416
you can talk to other students who are in

2466
02:11:28,416 --> 02:11:30,041
the program and find out

2467
02:11:30,041 --> 02:11:31,500
what's the story on that

2468
02:11:31,500 --> 02:11:33,708
professor. Absolutely. And that may or

2469
02:11:33,708 --> 02:11:35,041
may not change. It may may

2470
02:11:35,041 --> 02:11:36,333
may make you want to go work

2471
02:11:36,333 --> 02:11:38,208
with that professor more. It might make

2472
02:11:38,208 --> 02:11:39,541
you like, maybe that's not

2473
02:11:39,541 --> 02:11:40,500
going to be a good fit for me.

2474
02:11:40,958 --> 02:11:43,208
But that's, that's, that's, that's a big

2475
02:11:43,208 --> 02:11:44,500
thing is that you can also talk to the

2476
02:11:44,500 --> 02:11:45,791
students and get a feel for like what

2477
02:11:45,833 --> 02:11:48,250
their experience is in that person's lab.

2478
02:11:49,000 --> 02:11:51,791
Yeah, absolutely. So and again, and and

2479
02:11:51,791 --> 02:11:53,875
Lou is like the perfect

2480
02:11:53,875 --> 02:11:56,583
example of this, right?

2481
02:11:56,583 --> 02:11:58,666
Is it's the networking and being able to

2482
02:11:58,666 --> 02:12:01,125
get consulting gigs from it and, you

2483
02:12:01,125 --> 02:12:02,750
know, subside projects in

2484
02:12:02,750 --> 02:12:04,250
it because she knows people.

2485
02:12:04,458 --> 02:12:06,750
And we've seen we've shown the evidence

2486
02:12:06,750 --> 02:12:08,791
just in this in this interview. So thank

2487
02:12:08,791 --> 02:12:10,333
you, Lou, for doing that. We really

2488
02:12:10,333 --> 02:12:11,833
appreciate you coming up. We'll love to

2489
02:12:11,833 --> 02:12:13,458
have you back on talk more team more less

2490
02:12:13,458 --> 02:12:15,666
tea when we went at that that episode for

2491
02:12:15,666 --> 02:12:17,083
the lost shark. I think they're live.

2492
02:12:17,166 --> 02:12:19,416
And of course, David, people want to get

2493
02:12:19,416 --> 02:12:20,708
a hold of you. How would they do so?

2494
02:12:21,958 --> 02:12:23,250
Instagram is probably most active in

2495
02:12:23,250 --> 02:12:25,791
Instagram. And I'm also on Facebook, X

2496
02:12:25,791 --> 02:12:27,833
and LinkedIn. But probably Instagram is

2497
02:12:27,833 --> 02:12:29,333
the best way to hit me up.

2498
02:12:29,708 --> 02:12:31,958
And just David lost shark guy.

2499
02:12:32,000 --> 02:12:34,625
And also check out if you haven't checked

2500
02:12:34,625 --> 02:12:36,666
out my YouTube channel, a lost shark guy

2501
02:12:36,666 --> 02:12:38,750
in this series, searching for lost

2502
02:12:38,750 --> 02:12:40,416
sharks, extinct or alive. We got episode

2503
02:12:40,416 --> 02:12:43,208
fives coming up soon. And please check

2504
02:12:43,208 --> 02:12:44,416
them out. And if you like it, please hit

2505
02:12:44,416 --> 02:12:46,458
subscribe for both the lost shark guy and

2506
02:12:46,458 --> 02:12:49,000
and for our beyond jaws YouTube channel.

2507
02:12:49,250 --> 02:12:51,125
We appreciate it. Yes, absolutely.

2508
02:12:51,958 --> 02:12:54,000
Yeah, always fun. Yeah, beyond jaws

2509
02:12:54,000 --> 02:12:55,750
looking at our Instagram YouTube channel,

2510
02:12:55,750 --> 02:12:57,458
subscribe and do all that wonderful

2511
02:12:57,458 --> 02:13:00,291
stuff. I will connect to you with with

2512
02:13:00,291 --> 02:13:02,541
low and her her social media links as

2513
02:13:02,541 --> 02:13:04,458
well. And we want to thank you guys so

2514
02:13:04,458 --> 02:13:06,000
much for joining us. Thank Lou, of

2515
02:13:06,000 --> 02:13:07,916
course. And thank you guys for joining us

2516
02:13:07,916 --> 02:13:09,791
on this episode of the Beyond Jaws

2517
02:13:09,791 --> 02:13:11,500
podcast. I hope you had a great time.

2518
02:13:11,958 --> 02:13:13,833
Thank you so much. Have a great day and

2519
02:13:13,833 --> 02:13:14,458
have a conservation.