How Stereo BRUVs Are Revealing Sharks We Never See and Why It Changes Conservation

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Welcome back to the

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Beyond Jaws podcast today.

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On the podcast we

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have Dr. Kaylee Schmidt,

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who is here to talk about

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her love for marine sciences,

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her love for

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protecting marine biodiversity

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and doing research on marine biodiversity

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through a lot of

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different work, including sharks.

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She does a stereo bruv's,

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which we're gonna talk

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about what that means

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and what that's able to do,

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not only in the shallows,

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but also in the deep sea.

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This is an episode

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you're not gonna wanna miss.

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So let's start the show.

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Everybody. Welcome back to another

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exciting episode of

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the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

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Oh, co-host Andrew Lewin actually here

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with my other co-host, Dr. David Evert.

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Dave, how are you?

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Great. Looking forward to having another,

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uh, another South African, uh, on our,

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on our show. You know, I always love

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having the South Africans on the, on the,

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on the show here. And, and, uh, this was

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going to be an interesting with Kaylee,

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because she's actually out

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in the field right now, uh,

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camping on some game park, uh,

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with surrounded by lions and giraffes and

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all kinds of wildlife.

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So, um, they'll be

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interesting to see, uh,

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since she, what she did, what she does.

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And, um, of course she's,

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she's affiliated with the South African

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Institute for Aquatic Biodiversity,

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which is where I did, uh, my

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PhD back in the day, years ago,

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when it was called the J.L.B. Smith

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Institute of Ichthyology.

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So it's a lot of

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nostalgia for me personally, uh,

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having someone on from the Institute

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there. And, uh, so I'm really, yeah.

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So I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. She's

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going to take us to the Seychelles,

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the Camaros, you know,

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uh, all around South Africa.

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It is a fun episode. We can't wait to

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start. So how, what do you say, David?

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Should we start the

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interview? Let's do it. All right.

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Here's the interview with Kaylee Smith

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and Joy, and we'll talk to you after.

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Hey Kaylee, welcome to

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the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about sharks,

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marine biodiversity,

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maybe even deep sea

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ecology. Hey guys, I am.

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It really is an honor to be here. Thank

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you for having me on the show.

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Great. You thank you. Thank you. Well,

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we have another exciting Beyond Jaws

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podcast with an awesome guest today.

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We have Dr. Kaylee Schmidt, uh,

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as a senior research fellow at the South

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African Institute for

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Aquatic Biodiversity,

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which I'm really excited to have someone

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there from one of my own institutions

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in South Africa. She's also a co-founder

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and director of a small nonprofit

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research organization based in South

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Africa called the Ocean Life Science.

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Since completing her PhD in 2020,

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she's worked as a project coordinator for

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the development of regional marine

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spatial planning strategies for the

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Western Indian Ocean

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and has been involved

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in capacity development in the Seychelles

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to train initiatives to conduct coral

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reef monitoring assessment.

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Her research focuses on advancing marine

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ecosystem assessments across South

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Africa and the Western Indian Ocean using

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remote imagery technologies such as

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stereo broves and lander systems to

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collect standardized underwater fish

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observation data. She's particularly

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interested in linking ecological data to

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indicators and inform both national and

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global biodiversity monitoring and

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reporting frameworks. Kaylee recently

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participated in a biodiversity expedition

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around the Kamora Islands in the Western

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Indian Ocean where a number of really

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cool deep sea sharks and

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razor films. So I thought, well,

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heck I have to have her come on the show

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now and talk about that. Um,

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and about our recent

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expedition, uh, her, her schooling, uh,

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background is she has a marine biology

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degree, uh, a Bachelors and a Bachelors

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and an honors from Nelson Mandela

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University where she also has a, an MSC

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and his PhD all, all from

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Nelson Mandela University.

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And they mentioned she's currently a

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research fellow at SIAB working in the

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marine remote imagery

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platform and the co-founder and

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director of the small NGO in South

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Africa, the ocean life sciences. And

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Kaylee, welcome to the show.

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Thank you very much. Thank you for having

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me. It really is a pleasure to be here.

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So, oh, we're excited

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about this. Um, so I have,

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uh, your first question is like, how did

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you get interested in the marine sciences

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and the type of work you do?

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Well, I grew up on the coast. So I, I was

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actually born in

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Johannesburg and in my family,

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thank goodness, moved me to the coast.

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And, um, I grew up in

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the sea basically surfing,

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snorkeling, scuba diving from a young

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age. My brother was a

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really good surface.

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And we were on the beach like almost

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every weekend. Um, and I just fell in

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love with the sea first and foremost.

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And then I just really enjoyed biology in

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general. Like I, I didn't have one of

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those stories where I always knew I

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wanted to grow up and

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be a marine biologist.

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They kind of just fell into place. And

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when it all kind of came together, when I

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started mixing my ocean life with my

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interest in biology,

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it just kind of clicked. And I realized

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this is exactly what I was meant to be

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doing. And yeah, I

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just started from there.

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I had the opportunity to, to study where

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I was, you know, in the city that I, that

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I grew up in. Um, and they had a marine

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biology program there.

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So I think that really facilitated the

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journey and I just jumped

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in and, and here I am now.

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So, so you basically, you're, you're from

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the Eastern Cape then you grew up in the

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Port Elizabeth area and

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went, went to university there.

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No, I actually grew up in, in in it's all

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on the East coast. Okay. So

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I grew up in this nice. Yeah.

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A small coastal town, um, just south of

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Durban. So about 30 minutes south of

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Durban. Um, so I'm really used to that

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warm sub tropical climate, warm sea.

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Um, and yeah. And then I slowly made my

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way down to Graham's town, but too far

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from the sea for my liking.

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Yeah. There's a whole story there. We'll

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talk some other time about why Graham's

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town's there. Uh, why, why the fish

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institutes there had to do with the, had

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to do with the fish actually.

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Um, so anyways, so, so from an early age,

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you decided like when you're, when you're

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going to school and you just want to go,

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go there. So I'm kind of, this little, I

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don't want to be too inside baseball, but

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I know you went, you're, you grew up in

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the towel and you ended up going to

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school and at Nelson Mandela university,

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which I know has a good

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marine biology program, but why?

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Why'd you go there versus say and go into

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one of the, uh, universities in KZN?

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Well, I did. I actually started at the

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university of Kuzaluna. So I did, I did

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my undergrad there. Um, and I actually

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went up to my masters at UKZN. So I don't

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know. Yeah. And then I only then moved to

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the Nelson Mandela university for my, for

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my doctorate, for my PhD, which I somehow

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wangled to do remotely from Durban.

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So I stayed in Durban that whole time. I

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barely set foot on the, the interview

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campus actually, um, even though I was

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registered there. Um, but then I still

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managed to stay on the warm East coast

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for that whole journey because a lot of

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my field work was actually in KZN.

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So even for my PhD studies, I stayed in

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Durban. Um, but I was still registered

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with different institutions.

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Okay. Okay. So you go through and you got

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your, you got your degrees and

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everything. And so what was your next

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step once you sort of got your PhD now

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and it's like, okay, now what do I do?

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Um, what did you do?

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Okay.

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The, the now what I do actually kind of

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started before my PhD after my masters, I

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was a little bit like, okay, I got my

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masters now, what do I do? And I wasn't

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really set on doing a PhD necessarily.

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And then that's when I actually did an

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internship, which was at Sion or Sion,

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which was then in Grahamstown and linked

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very closely with SIAB. Um, and that's

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where I met Anthony Bernard, my current

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boss, a colleague now at SIAB.

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Um, and that's where I started doing all

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the remote imagery kind of work was

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really as an intern, um, quite like a

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late career intern, you know, I was, I

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was there with all these young students

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and for my first time actually spending

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time and at roads and in Grahamstown and

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living the student laugh

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there, which was quite fun.

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Um, and then I really realized that this

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is what I wanted to do. This is where I

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started really becoming part of the bruv

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team and getting out into the field and

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spending lots of time at sea and doing

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really cool remote imagery work.

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So after that one year internship that I

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decided that I wanted to continue with

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this kind of work and we had such a

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really cool team. I think I've really

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learned along the way that the people

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around you can really make or break, you

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know, either your decisions and your

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situation and you know,

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the path that you take.

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And we had such a cool group of people

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that I was working with and I really love

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the team. I love the work. So I decided

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to then I decided then that I wanted to

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do a PhD and continue into research. Um,

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and an opportunity arose where I could

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work with Anthony Bernard at SIAB.

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But then obviously I needed a link with

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an actual university. So then, yeah, we

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kind of just pull people in. Um, and I

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eventually had an, a nice three, three

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person team as my co supervisor,

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co-supervisory team.

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Um, it was kind of a bit of a crazy

270
01:08:45,583 --> 01:08:47,500
situation because I had Anto was in

271
01:08:47,500 --> 01:08:50,041
Grahamstown at SIAB. I had professor

272
01:08:50,041 --> 01:08:51,916
Mandy Lombard, who was my main supervisor

273
01:08:51,916 --> 01:08:53,666
at NMU, but not actually

274
01:08:53,666 --> 01:08:54,041
at the NMU campus herself.

275
01:08:54,083 --> 01:08:57,375
And then I had Kerry Sink who was at

276
01:08:57,375 --> 01:08:59,291
Sandy and Kate's on and then I was in

277
01:08:59,291 --> 01:09:02,791
Durban. So, um, but it somehow just

278
01:09:02,791 --> 01:09:05,500
worked. How, how, yeah, well, how

279
01:09:05,500 --> 01:09:07,166
difficult was that? Or what, what were

280
01:09:07,166 --> 01:09:10,458
the challenges to have a committee that

281
01:09:10,458 --> 01:09:12,291
was, that was all over the place? Did you

282
01:09:12,291 --> 01:09:14,166
have to do a lot of the logistics and

283
01:09:14,166 --> 01:09:16,416
making sure that you can meet online at

284
01:09:16,416 --> 01:09:18,000
certain times to make sure that you're,

285
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:19,625
you know, you have, you meet those

286
01:09:19,625 --> 01:09:22,416
requirements? Yeah, I think, I think

287
01:09:22,416 --> 01:09:23,041
being quite, you know, I think, you know, I think it's a good thing.

288
01:09:23,041 --> 01:09:26,166
You know, it wasn't COVID obviously yet,

289
01:09:26,166 --> 01:09:28,833
but we were still quite geared for, you

290
01:09:28,833 --> 01:09:32,416
know, online working and online platforms

291
01:09:32,416 --> 01:09:33,916
for doing meetings and that kind of

292
01:09:33,916 --> 01:09:35,791
thing. So it kind of just, just worked.

293
01:09:36,500 --> 01:09:38,500
Um, it was nice that each person of my,

294
01:09:38,500 --> 01:09:41,458
of my committee, as you say, um, everyone

295
01:09:41,458 --> 01:09:42,833
kind of full a different role.

296
01:09:43,041 --> 01:09:45,083
So Ant was very hands on. And so he would

297
01:09:45,083 --> 01:09:47,041
be like doing the work on the ground. He

298
01:09:47,041 --> 01:09:48,416
would help with the logistics. So he and

299
01:09:48,416 --> 01:09:50,083
I would be in contact a lot and we would

300
01:09:50,083 --> 01:09:52,375
even just jump on a WhatsApp or a call.

301
01:09:52,708 --> 01:09:54,625
And we'd all have online meetings every

302
01:09:54,625 --> 01:09:56,000
now and then. And then Mandi and Kerry

303
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:59,083
were kind of super busy, very high level,

304
01:09:59,083 --> 01:10:02,000
you know, kind of scientists, um, lead

305
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:03,458
scientists in the country and didn't

306
01:10:03,458 --> 01:10:06,291
have, um, Oh, I just lost my life. Sorry.

307
01:10:06,916 --> 01:10:10,083
Didn't have a lot of time to get me.

308
01:10:11,041 --> 01:10:12,791
Um, so, and kind of full that gap and

309
01:10:12,791 --> 01:10:14,125
they would come in and just help with

310
01:10:14,125 --> 01:10:16,916
like the financials and the big picture

311
01:10:16,916 --> 01:10:19,833
kind of stuff. Um, and yeah, we would

312
01:10:19,833 --> 01:10:21,916
meet in person every so often and we

313
01:10:21,916 --> 01:10:23,666
would have online meetings. I think I was

314
01:10:23,666 --> 01:10:25,125
lucky that I could work quite well

315
01:10:25,125 --> 01:10:27,583
independently. So it doesn't always work

316
01:10:27,583 --> 01:10:29,500
for everyone, but I was quite happy on my

317
01:10:29,500 --> 01:10:31,666
own. I was, you know, quite a dedicated

318
01:10:31,666 --> 01:10:33,458
student and I enjoyed the work that I was

319
01:10:33,458 --> 01:10:35,125
doing. So I just got on with it and just

320
01:10:35,125 --> 01:10:36,458
checked in with them every now and then.

321
01:10:36,583 --> 01:10:38,125
And as long as they were happy, which I

322
01:10:38,125 --> 01:10:39,416
could see that they were and they just

323
01:10:39,416 --> 01:10:40,041
let me, let me do my best.

324
01:10:40,083 --> 01:10:42,500
Let me do my thing. I just, I got

325
01:10:42,500 --> 01:10:43,916
interject here just so people that wonder

326
01:10:43,916 --> 01:10:45,916
why it's a little dark for Kaylee. She

327
01:10:45,916 --> 01:10:47,375
heard her husband actually on a camping

328
01:10:47,375 --> 01:10:49,500
trip right now. And so she, she

329
01:10:49,500 --> 01:10:50,583
definitely is going to get like the iron

330
01:10:50,583 --> 01:10:52,375
woman award. I think for this year for

331
01:10:52,375 --> 01:10:55,000
calling in from the, from the field,

332
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:56,916
literally like on a camping trip. So it's

333
01:10:56,916 --> 01:10:58,750
a little dark. It's nighttime in South

334
01:10:58,750 --> 01:11:00,958
Africa right now. So just so people want

335
01:11:00,958 --> 01:11:02,375
to know why it's a little dark there.

336
01:11:02,375 --> 01:11:03,666
This is a podcast first, which is

337
01:11:03,666 --> 01:11:06,083
awesome. It's a podcast for her. So this

338
01:11:06,083 --> 01:11:07,875
is great. Yeah, it's new barriers. So,

339
01:11:07,875 --> 01:11:09,791
um, uh, just the other two is just to

340
01:11:09,791 --> 01:11:10,041
give people a little bit of a

341
01:11:10,083 --> 01:11:13,750
sense of geography. It's it's not don't

342
01:11:13,750 --> 01:11:15,916
worry about we appreciate it. Uh, you

343
01:11:15,916 --> 01:11:18,000
know, she's she doing this remote stuff.

344
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:19,208
It's like, you know, it's like if you're

345
01:11:19,208 --> 01:11:21,708
badging being in back in the day, this is

346
01:11:21,708 --> 01:11:23,333
whatever six, seven years ago being in

347
01:11:23,333 --> 01:11:24,958
San Francisco and talking to people in

348
01:11:24,958 --> 01:11:26,041
Miami and in New York.

349
01:11:26,083 --> 01:11:29,666
In South Africa, that's kind of the, the,

350
01:11:29,666 --> 01:11:31,333
which is basically trying to carry on and

351
01:11:31,333 --> 01:11:34,666
do a PhD on. Uh, so that's, that's, um,

352
01:11:35,333 --> 01:11:36,666
that's quite, that's quite a, quite a,

353
01:11:36,666 --> 01:11:38,708
quite a thing to, to pull, to pull off

354
01:11:38,708 --> 01:11:40,958
there. Kayla, I have a, I have a question

355
01:11:40,958 --> 01:11:43,791
around the spatial analysis, even the

356
01:11:43,791 --> 01:11:46,416
bros. Now these are all, uh, not

357
01:11:46,416 --> 01:11:49,208
relatively new technologies, but

358
01:11:49,208 --> 01:11:50,958
definitely a technology that has been

359
01:11:50,958 --> 01:11:52,916
emerging over the past few decades from

360
01:11:52,916 --> 01:11:54,500
us, like for spatial analysis

361
01:11:54,500 --> 01:11:55,041
and marine spatial planning.

362
01:11:55,083 --> 01:11:59,125
And so forth. Um, where did you learn

363
01:11:59,125 --> 01:12:00,833
those skills? Did you learn that in your

364
01:12:00,833 --> 01:12:02,416
undergrad? Did you have to learn it as

365
01:12:02,416 --> 01:12:05,166
you were going through it? Just to give

366
01:12:05,166 --> 01:12:06,875
you perspective when I did my master's

367
01:12:06,875 --> 01:12:10,000
degree back in 2000s, I had to do like a

368
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:12,750
special diploma, like that for, for GIS

369
01:12:12,750 --> 01:12:15,416
and remote sensing and so forth. Did you

370
01:12:15,416 --> 01:12:16,958
have to do something similar or did you

371
01:12:16,958 --> 01:12:19,083
just kind of learn it as you went through

372
01:12:19,083 --> 01:12:21,791
and how, how much of a challenge is that

373
01:12:21,791 --> 01:12:23,041
for you to learn that right off the bat?

374
01:12:23,083 --> 01:12:25,500
Yeah, that's a good question. And I mean,

375
01:12:25,500 --> 01:12:26,583
now that you mentioned that you had to do

376
01:12:26,583 --> 01:12:27,833
courses and things, I mean, cause I've

377
01:12:27,833 --> 01:12:29,541
definitely done courses and other kinds

378
01:12:29,541 --> 01:12:32,000
of skill, you know, skill sets, but the

379
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:34,250
bros, we kind of just learn on the go and

380
01:12:34,250 --> 01:12:36,958
on the fly. Um, there's no like set

381
01:12:36,958 --> 01:12:38,666
qualification or anything like that. It

382
01:12:38,666 --> 01:12:41,250
really is just learning by doing. Uh,

383
01:12:41,250 --> 01:12:43,541
first, um, was introduced to the method

384
01:12:43,541 --> 01:12:44,958
and the technologies with that

385
01:12:44,958 --> 01:12:48,375
internship. So that was back in 2015. Um,

386
01:12:48,625 --> 01:12:50,875
but they, and Anthony was, was one of

387
01:12:50,875 --> 01:12:52,666
the, who's now boss.

388
01:12:53,333 --> 01:12:55,958
Um, he was one of the pioneers of the

389
01:12:55,958 --> 01:12:58,291
method in South Africa, having worked in

390
01:12:58,291 --> 01:13:00,541
collaboration with the Australian team

391
01:13:00,541 --> 01:13:02,833
who were kind of like the lead developers

392
01:13:02,833 --> 01:13:04,625
of the bribes technologies and, you know,

393
01:13:04,625 --> 01:13:07,125
as a group worldwide and the technology

394
01:13:07,125 --> 01:13:08,916
started developing and evolving over

395
01:13:08,916 --> 01:13:12,500
time. Um, and then, and you're at the

396
01:13:12,500 --> 01:13:15,041
time, I think for his PhD, he kind of,

397
01:13:15,041 --> 01:13:18,000
you know, really brought it and expanded

398
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:19,041
the platform in South Africa.

399
01:13:19,083 --> 01:13:21,916
So even now, I mean, it's, it's really

400
01:13:21,916 --> 01:13:24,208
just through connection through being a

401
01:13:24,208 --> 01:13:26,375
student or an intern within the program.

402
01:13:26,958 --> 01:13:28,708
We do do a lot of training capacity

403
01:13:28,708 --> 01:13:30,833
building, but we don't have like a proper

404
01:13:30,833 --> 01:13:32,833
accredited course or anything, but we

405
01:13:32,833 --> 01:13:35,208
have had multiple like three or four day

406
01:13:35,208 --> 01:13:37,500
workshops, um, within the Western Indian

407
01:13:37,500 --> 01:13:38,041
Ocean region, actually.

408
01:13:38,041 --> 01:13:40,583
And it's actually a large part of what I

409
01:13:40,583 --> 01:13:43,500
do now in my work, um, is that we train

410
01:13:43,500 --> 01:13:45,375
people on the methods and the standard

411
01:13:45,375 --> 01:13:46,958
operating procedures and all the

412
01:13:46,958 --> 01:13:48,916
technicalities around it. But I think

413
01:13:48,916 --> 01:13:52,250
because we such a field based like data

414
01:13:52,250 --> 01:13:55,583
collection heavy, um, tea or platform,

415
01:13:56,250 --> 01:13:58,083
we, you know, the, the opportunity just

416
01:13:58,083 --> 01:13:59,666
arose to really just be out in the field

417
01:13:59,666 --> 01:14:00,500
all the time and just

418
01:14:00,500 --> 01:14:01,708
learn by doing really.

419
01:14:02,041 --> 01:14:03,833
And that's how I got the experience

420
01:14:03,833 --> 01:14:05,666
essentially. And that's how students

421
01:14:05,666 --> 01:14:07,416
interns coming through the program are

422
01:14:07,416 --> 01:14:09,291
also getting experience by we make sure

423
01:14:09,291 --> 01:14:11,541
that they get onto bribes trips onto

424
01:14:11,541 --> 01:14:13,500
bribes field trips. And we, and we do a

425
01:14:13,500 --> 01:14:15,375
lot of training along the way, just

426
01:14:15,375 --> 01:14:17,000
internally with through the, through the

427
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:19,583
team. Um, so yeah, nice.

428
01:14:21,125 --> 01:14:22,791
Now, where are some of the areas that you

429
01:14:22,791 --> 01:14:24,208
were some of the locations you've been

430
01:14:24,208 --> 01:14:26,208
like around like say South Africa and

431
01:14:26,208 --> 01:14:27,458
stuff that you've been doing that you've

432
01:14:27,458 --> 01:14:29,208
been involved with for me, mostly the

433
01:14:29,208 --> 01:14:32,083
East and South coast. Um, but I really

434
01:14:32,083 --> 01:14:33,708
have had the privilege of working in some

435
01:14:33,708 --> 01:14:35,416
amazing places. I mean, this is really

436
01:14:35,416 --> 01:14:38,375
the the perk of this job is getting out

437
01:14:38,375 --> 01:14:40,458
to see and getting the opportunity to

438
01:14:40,458 --> 01:14:41,750
travel around and see places

439
01:14:41,750 --> 01:14:42,875
that I never would have seen.

440
01:15:13,083 --> 01:15:16,750
Um, and the gallus area. So yeah, being

441
01:15:16,750 --> 01:15:18,666
to some amazing places and get to see

442
01:15:18,666 --> 01:15:20,208
some beautiful coastlines.

443
01:15:20,208 --> 01:15:22,041
Yeah. When you're doing this kind of

444
01:15:22,041 --> 01:15:23,375
like, when you guys put down like your

445
01:15:23,375 --> 01:15:25,833
bros and stuff, I haven't had like a lot

446
01:15:25,833 --> 01:15:28,208
of a firsthand experience working with

447
01:15:28,208 --> 01:15:29,916
those things you get how long like when

448
01:15:29,916 --> 01:15:31,458
you go on an expedition, like what kind

449
01:15:31,458 --> 01:15:33,958
of like when you get prepared for like

450
01:15:33,958 --> 01:15:35,291
how many days you're going out there,

451
01:15:35,291 --> 01:15:37,041
like how many hours do you plan?

452
01:15:37,416 --> 01:15:40,583
Would you plan out for your field trip?

453
01:15:40,583 --> 01:15:42,125
We're actually like out on out at sea

454
01:15:42,125 --> 01:15:42,708
putting down that

455
01:15:42,708 --> 01:15:43,750
putting down the equipment.

456
01:15:43,750 --> 01:15:46,291
So it varies. It depends on the on the

457
01:15:46,291 --> 01:15:48,916
project and what the goal is. So a lot of

458
01:15:48,916 --> 01:15:50,500
the time we actually like a platform

459
01:15:50,500 --> 01:15:53,541
provision we provide the equipment and

460
01:15:53,541 --> 01:15:55,708
the expertise to support other people's

461
01:15:55,708 --> 01:15:57,041
projects. So it depends what they want.

462
01:15:58,041 --> 01:16:00,291
But generally, I'd say in most cases,

463
01:16:00,291 --> 01:16:02,458
they would range from like two to four

464
01:16:02,458 --> 01:16:04,875
week trips. So we do all of the

465
01:16:04,875 --> 01:16:06,541
preparations beforehand, we have to

466
01:16:06,541 --> 01:16:08,208
calibrate the cameras because they're

467
01:16:08,208 --> 01:16:09,708
stereo camera setups.

468
01:16:10,333 --> 01:16:11,875
So we calibrate all the cameras, we do

469
01:16:11,875 --> 01:16:13,583
all the packing, we do buy all our

470
01:16:13,583 --> 01:16:15,291
groceries for the week for the couple of

471
01:16:15,291 --> 01:16:17,208
weeks and we sort out and we just end up

472
01:16:17,208 --> 01:16:19,916
renting like a house or, you know, some

473
01:16:19,916 --> 01:16:20,750
very basic accommodation.

474
01:16:21,041 --> 01:16:23,041
It's normally like a four or five man

475
01:16:23,041 --> 01:16:25,000
team, depending if we want to bring on a

476
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:27,041
couple of extra students or interns to

477
01:16:27,041 --> 01:16:28,833
know just to do some extra training.

478
01:16:29,291 --> 01:16:31,000
But you really we work with us off a

479
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:33,125
rubber duck, quite a big rubber duck now,

480
01:16:33,125 --> 01:16:35,000
but it's normally it's been around seven

481
01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:37,333
to nine meter kind of rubber duck boat.

482
01:16:37,333 --> 01:16:39,625
So we're not working off any big or most

483
01:16:39,625 --> 01:16:41,083
of the time we're not working off any big

484
01:16:41,083 --> 01:16:43,416
research vessels or any ship based work.

485
01:16:43,416 --> 01:16:46,333
So it's quite easy and accessible, which

486
01:16:46,333 --> 01:16:47,750
is nice, which is the benefit of this

487
01:16:47,750 --> 01:16:50,041
platform. So we pick up all our stuff.

488
01:16:50,083 --> 01:16:52,166
We load the boat, we load the trailers

489
01:16:52,166 --> 01:16:54,125
and then we normally just tow the boat

490
01:16:54,125 --> 01:16:54,958
around the country,

491
01:16:54,958 --> 01:16:56,500
depending where we need to go and be.

492
01:16:57,000 --> 01:16:58,458
And then we'll set up there for on

493
01:16:58,458 --> 01:17:00,250
average, I'd say about three weeks that

494
01:17:00,250 --> 01:17:01,916
we're in the field. And we just go out

495
01:17:01,916 --> 01:17:03,291
whenever there's a good weather day.

496
01:17:03,291 --> 01:17:05,791
I mean, that can range from three days

497
01:17:05,791 --> 01:17:08,208
till two twenty one back to back work

498
01:17:08,208 --> 01:17:11,000
days or see days. So it can be very heavy

499
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:13,666
going very long days at

500
01:17:13,666 --> 01:17:16,041
sea, tough working conditions.

501
01:17:16,083 --> 01:17:19,583
But I mean, yeah, I mean, it's all worth

502
01:17:19,583 --> 01:17:23,333
it, obviously. So, yeah, it's fine.

503
01:17:23,333 --> 01:17:24,791
So when you go out and put down the gear,

504
01:17:25,291 --> 01:17:26,250
when you go out because you're working

505
01:17:26,250 --> 01:17:27,875
off a smaller platform, but you go out

506
01:17:27,875 --> 01:17:29,583
there to put down the gear, do you stay

507
01:17:29,583 --> 01:17:31,125
on station or do you have like buoy

508
01:17:31,125 --> 01:17:32,333
markers that you you

509
01:17:32,333 --> 01:17:33,333
leave it and you come back?

510
01:17:33,833 --> 01:17:35,916
Yeah. So the breads are connected the

511
01:17:35,916 --> 01:17:37,625
shallow water breath. So we do have two

512
01:17:37,625 --> 01:17:39,041
types of systems that we work with now.

513
01:17:39,083 --> 01:17:41,083
But the ones that are mostly I've been

514
01:17:41,083 --> 01:17:43,000
working with other what we call the

515
01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:44,583
shallow water breath, which can be used

516
01:17:44,583 --> 01:17:46,125
to about two hundred meters.

517
01:17:46,833 --> 01:17:49,750
And they are tethered with a rope and a

518
01:17:49,750 --> 01:17:51,583
surface marker boy. So we normally work

519
01:17:51,583 --> 01:17:53,541
with about four or five actual breath

520
01:17:53,541 --> 01:17:55,000
systems and we'll

521
01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:56,916
deploy all of them at once.

522
01:17:57,041 --> 01:17:58,666
And then they stay out there and they

523
01:17:58,666 --> 01:18:00,375
remain on the bottom for a standardized

524
01:18:00,375 --> 01:18:02,708
period of sixty minutes. So they're on

525
01:18:02,708 --> 01:18:03,041
the bottom for one hour.

526
01:18:03,083 --> 01:18:05,333
They sit on the bottom, but they do have

527
01:18:05,333 --> 01:18:07,458
a surface marker boy. And we leave them.

528
01:18:07,708 --> 01:18:10,541
They are deployed at least five hundred

529
01:18:10,541 --> 01:18:12,208
meters apart just for that independence

530
01:18:12,208 --> 01:18:13,833
because they are baited.

531
01:18:14,500 --> 01:18:16,500
So we generally don't always know how far

532
01:18:16,500 --> 01:18:18,416
the blade the bait plume is going to

533
01:18:18,416 --> 01:18:21,416
extend. So we have a set

534
01:18:21,416 --> 01:18:22,833
distance of five hundred meters.

535
01:18:23,291 --> 01:18:26,291
And then we'll after the one hour is up,

536
01:18:26,291 --> 01:18:28,000
we just go and we pick them up and we

537
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:30,000
either will redeploy or we pick all of

538
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:31,041
them up and redeploy all of them again.

539
01:18:31,041 --> 01:18:32,833
But basically, as long as the weather

540
01:18:32,833 --> 01:18:35,083
allow, we just pick up and deploy, pick

541
01:18:35,083 --> 01:18:37,125
up and deploy all day long, pulling

542
01:18:37,125 --> 01:18:39,000
ropes, dropping them off again, pulling

543
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:40,791
ropes, pulling more ropes.

544
01:18:41,625 --> 01:18:43,208
And that's kind of hard work. A lot of

545
01:18:43,208 --> 01:18:45,458
pulling ropes. Well, there's probably

546
01:18:45,458 --> 01:18:47,083
there's gotta be more of the fun part of

547
01:18:47,083 --> 01:18:49,041
it because I assume much of all your data

548
01:18:49,041 --> 01:18:51,333
then you're spending like you're probably

549
01:18:51,333 --> 01:18:52,041
spending months looking at video.

550
01:18:53,041 --> 01:18:59,083
Doing your analysis. Yes, that is one of

551
01:18:59,083 --> 01:19:00,750
the biggest challenges actually. And

552
01:19:00,750 --> 01:19:02,541
that's one of our bottle necks is this.

553
01:19:03,291 --> 01:19:05,583
Yes, for a little while. I don't know how

554
01:19:05,583 --> 01:19:06,041
long it's going to last.

555
01:19:07,041 --> 01:19:11,708
But yeah, so I mean, the fun part and we

556
01:19:11,708 --> 01:19:13,833
always we always talk about this and

557
01:19:13,833 --> 01:19:16,125
that, you know, the fun part is being out

558
01:19:16,125 --> 01:19:17,875
at sea collecting the data and then we

559
01:19:17,875 --> 01:19:20,458
have to sit for hours and hours on end

560
01:19:20,458 --> 01:19:22,750
just to put into perspective for my PhD

561
01:19:22,750 --> 01:19:24,041
work, which is back in like 2017.

562
01:19:24,041 --> 01:19:28,708
We collected the data and I sat for about

563
01:19:28,708 --> 01:19:32,416
seven months nonstop every single day of

564
01:19:32,416 --> 01:19:35,250
my life just watching fish swim past on

565
01:19:35,250 --> 01:19:36,708
the video and I started going a little

566
01:19:36,708 --> 01:19:37,833
bit crazy at the end.

567
01:19:38,708 --> 01:19:41,541
But that's kind of also how I learned my

568
01:19:41,541 --> 01:19:44,750
my fish IDs. But that is the hard part.

569
01:19:45,208 --> 01:19:47,458
Yeah, I think I think in those in those

570
01:19:47,458 --> 01:19:49,041
situations, you have to put in the time

571
01:19:49,041 --> 01:19:51,958
to really learn everything that goes into

572
01:19:51,958 --> 01:19:53,041
what you're seeing and learning the observation.

573
01:19:53,041 --> 01:19:54,708
And learning the observations that you

574
01:19:54,708 --> 01:19:57,500
that you observe in those situations, was

575
01:19:57,500 --> 01:19:59,708
that like a biodiversity thing? So you're

576
01:19:59,708 --> 01:20:02,958
trying to record every time you see a

577
01:20:02,958 --> 01:20:04,250
different species. Is that what you're

578
01:20:04,250 --> 01:20:05,625
looking at? Yeah, exactly.

579
01:20:06,375 --> 01:20:08,291
So we tried to as the platform as the

580
01:20:08,291 --> 01:20:09,958
best platform regardless of the research

581
01:20:09,958 --> 01:20:12,083
question because that can vary from just

582
01:20:12,083 --> 01:20:14,375
looking at sharks or rays or a specific

583
01:20:14,375 --> 01:20:17,500
species or a group. But we tried to as

584
01:20:17,500 --> 01:20:19,458
best as possible and also encourage other

585
01:20:19,458 --> 01:20:21,166
people to analyze for

586
01:20:21,166 --> 01:20:22,041
the full assemblage.

587
01:20:22,083 --> 01:20:24,625
Because it takes so long to analyze the

588
01:20:24,625 --> 01:20:26,458
videos in the first place. We have to use

589
01:20:26,458 --> 01:20:28,708
very specialized software. The licenses

590
01:20:28,708 --> 01:20:30,708
are quite expensive. It takes quite a bit

591
01:20:30,708 --> 01:20:32,416
of training to learn how to do it. It's

592
01:20:32,416 --> 01:20:33,583
quite a technical process.

593
01:20:34,666 --> 01:20:36,333
And then you don't want to have to not go

594
01:20:36,333 --> 01:20:38,166
back and redo that all over again just

595
01:20:38,166 --> 01:20:39,791
because someone just picked out one

596
01:20:39,791 --> 01:20:43,000
species. So we really do try. We have to

597
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:45,041
analyze all species in the video.

598
01:20:46,041 --> 01:20:48,708
And so that is that you identify every

599
01:20:48,708 --> 01:20:50,958
species that you see. You have to count

600
01:20:50,958 --> 01:20:53,000
them at the max in. So it's actually a

601
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:56,000
relative abundance measure. And that's

602
01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:58,208
basically the maximum number of

603
01:20:58,208 --> 01:20:59,541
individuals of that

604
01:20:59,541 --> 01:21:01,041
species would see in one frame.

605
01:21:01,041 --> 01:21:03,666
So we would look through the full 60

606
01:21:03,666 --> 01:21:05,708
minute video and find that frame where we

607
01:21:05,708 --> 01:21:08,291
see the most of that of that species. And

608
01:21:08,291 --> 01:21:11,125
then we also have the stereo cameras. So

609
01:21:11,125 --> 01:21:13,125
then we can do the very accurate very

610
01:21:13,125 --> 01:21:15,125
precise length measurements. And then

611
01:21:15,125 --> 01:21:16,458
that's really important for looking at

612
01:21:16,458 --> 01:21:18,166
things like biomass and size

613
01:21:18,166 --> 01:21:18,958
distributions are

614
01:21:18,958 --> 01:21:20,041
very important indicates.

615
01:21:20,083 --> 01:21:23,708
So yeah, so it's quite a process. But we

616
01:21:23,708 --> 01:21:26,333
do and we try to do that for all the

617
01:21:26,333 --> 01:21:27,750
species that I mean in your tropical

618
01:21:27,750 --> 01:21:30,458
tropical areas. Obviously, you know,

619
01:21:30,458 --> 01:21:31,833
you've got hundreds of species to

620
01:21:31,833 --> 01:21:33,833
identify when can be quite daunting.

621
01:21:34,458 --> 01:21:37,000
Yeah. What does the does the software

622
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:40,250
that you use? Is it a machine learning

623
01:21:40,250 --> 01:21:43,500
based or has that has that come into play

624
01:21:43,500 --> 01:21:45,750
in your in going forward in your research

625
01:21:45,750 --> 01:21:47,375
or already in your research? Because I

626
01:21:47,375 --> 01:21:48,458
know, like, for instance,

627
01:21:48,833 --> 01:21:49,041
there's a there's a organic.

628
01:21:49,041 --> 01:21:50,666
There's a there's a organization called

629
01:21:50,666 --> 01:21:53,291
citizens of the reef that uses a citizen

630
01:21:53,291 --> 01:21:56,208
science project, but also combines it

631
01:21:56,208 --> 01:21:59,375
with AI and they look at pictures that

632
01:21:59,375 --> 01:22:02,958
tour operators are using on the reef and

633
01:22:02,958 --> 01:22:05,708
then they they they try and get people to

634
01:22:05,708 --> 01:22:08,875
categorize it into four different, you

635
01:22:08,875 --> 01:22:10,750
know, types like boulder plate, I forget

636
01:22:10,750 --> 01:22:11,041
what the other ones are.

637
01:22:11,041 --> 01:22:14,208
And then so they get the AI to do it, but

638
01:22:14,208 --> 01:22:16,500
they know is there only 70% or 75%

639
01:22:16,916 --> 01:22:18,666
accurate. But when they started to use

640
01:22:18,666 --> 01:22:22,208
people to confirm or deny it, it went up

641
01:22:22,208 --> 01:22:23,833
to like 90 some odd percent.

642
01:22:23,833 --> 01:22:25,791
So I know you've done work with citizen

643
01:22:25,791 --> 01:22:27,291
science before and you kind of mentioned

644
01:22:27,291 --> 01:22:28,958
that we have people identified. Have you

645
01:22:28,958 --> 01:22:32,833
come across any type of AI work or

646
01:22:32,833 --> 01:22:34,666
machine learning work that you can

647
01:22:34,666 --> 01:22:37,208
identify those species a lot more rapidly

648
01:22:37,208 --> 01:22:39,750
and then have people confirm is that is

649
01:22:39,750 --> 01:22:41,041
that even possible at this point?

650
01:22:41,125 --> 01:22:44,041
Yeah, no, a very good question. And it

651
01:22:44,041 --> 01:22:46,041
really is coming into play at the moment.

652
01:22:46,333 --> 01:22:47,541
I mean, I must say for the last few

653
01:22:47,541 --> 01:22:49,583
years, we've just been like, hoping and

654
01:22:49,583 --> 01:22:51,416
praying that this AI is going to come and

655
01:22:51,416 --> 01:22:53,500
save us from our hundreds and hundreds of

656
01:22:53,500 --> 01:22:56,000
videos that we need to process. But

657
01:22:56,041 --> 01:22:57,208
some

658
01:22:57,208 --> 01:22:57,416
ways.

659
01:22:58,041 --> 01:23:00,458
There really is a big movement in this

660
01:23:00,458 --> 01:23:02,375
space. And I know, like, you know, some

661
01:23:02,375 --> 01:23:04,041
countries, especially like the Australian

662
01:23:04,041 --> 01:23:05,708
groups and stuff, they are pumping a lot

663
01:23:05,708 --> 01:23:08,333
of money into this. There's such a like

664
01:23:08,333 --> 01:23:10,375
progression, like such a fast progression

665
01:23:10,375 --> 01:23:13,000
in this space. And I thought I was going

666
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:14,625
to try keep up and, you know, try start

667
01:23:14,625 --> 01:23:16,000
applying some of these things. But I

668
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:17,541
can't, I can't keep up with all these

669
01:23:17,541 --> 01:23:21,583
fancy like, like the techie side behind

670
01:23:21,583 --> 01:23:22,583
it is just too much for

671
01:23:22,583 --> 01:23:23,041
my brain now, actually.

672
01:23:23,083 --> 01:23:25,458
But it's really cool because we

673
01:23:25,458 --> 01:23:27,000
definitely are seeing the light and how

674
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:30,625
we are going to be able to use AI to to

675
01:23:30,625 --> 01:23:32,625
be able to help us with this. So even

676
01:23:32,625 --> 01:23:34,083
within our space, now we've got a couple

677
01:23:34,083 --> 01:23:36,083
of students doing some AI applications,

678
01:23:36,083 --> 01:23:37,625
you've got a PhD student at the moment,

679
01:23:37,916 --> 01:23:39,750
Luther, who's really awesome, doing some

680
01:23:39,750 --> 01:23:41,833
super cool, like machine learning,

681
01:23:41,833 --> 01:23:43,041
machine vision stuff.

682
01:23:43,083 --> 01:23:45,375
So, yeah, I think there's been a lot of

683
01:23:45,375 --> 01:23:47,500
progress in terms of like single species

684
01:23:47,500 --> 01:23:49,791
stuff, but also lean space things. But I

685
01:23:49,791 --> 01:23:50,916
think in terms of like the full

686
01:23:50,916 --> 01:23:52,500
assemblage and there's still a long way

687
01:23:52,500 --> 01:23:54,791
to go. But I think we're getting there. I

688
01:23:54,791 --> 01:23:56,958
don't know when exactly I'm a little bit

689
01:23:56,958 --> 01:23:59,500
removed from this space, but there's some

690
01:23:59,500 --> 01:24:01,375
amazing things out there now. And every

691
01:24:01,375 --> 01:24:02,916
time I go and look, I just see new

692
01:24:02,916 --> 01:24:06,708
applications, new technologies and tools.

693
01:24:06,916 --> 01:24:09,083
And so I definitely do think it's going

694
01:24:09,083 --> 01:24:10,875
to be a game changer for us. I mean,

695
01:24:10,875 --> 01:24:11,875
already we think of

696
01:24:11,875 --> 01:24:12,041
integration with the event.

697
01:24:12,083 --> 01:24:12,875
I just think of integration with the

698
01:24:12,875 --> 01:24:16,291
software that we use. And there's some

699
01:24:16,291 --> 01:24:18,041
private companies doing a lot of

700
01:24:18,041 --> 01:24:20,333
applications within that already. So

701
01:24:20,333 --> 01:24:22,291
yeah, I'm very excited to see how it's

702
01:24:22,291 --> 01:24:24,000
going to turn out. And I'm just going to

703
01:24:24,000 --> 01:24:26,250
be able to imagine telling those students

704
01:24:26,250 --> 01:24:29,166
back in the day, I just sit for 10 hours

705
01:24:29,166 --> 01:24:30,041
and analyze this video.

706
01:24:30,083 --> 01:24:34,625
I'll have some of those old things. That

707
01:24:34,625 --> 01:24:36,208
was my next question. You're going to be

708
01:24:36,208 --> 01:24:37,833
like the back in the day, Kaylee, you're

709
01:24:37,833 --> 01:24:38,958
going to be like back in the day, I used

710
01:24:38,958 --> 01:24:40,833
to have to watch this seven hours. Yeah,

711
01:24:40,833 --> 01:24:41,500
all that. That's

712
01:24:41,500 --> 01:24:42,708
hilarious. That's so funny.

713
01:24:42,958 --> 01:24:45,333
I just got one. I got one word for it. I

714
01:24:45,333 --> 01:24:46,500
just got one word for you. We start

715
01:24:46,500 --> 01:24:50,041
talking A.I. is Terminator. Watch the

716
01:24:50,041 --> 01:24:52,333
movie. Learn from it.

717
01:24:55,041 --> 01:24:59,583
Anyway, that now you mentioned that you

718
01:24:59,583 --> 01:25:01,125
mentioned you'd been in you spent some.

719
01:25:01,708 --> 01:25:05,000
Yeah, exactly. You mentioned you spent

720
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:06,041
some time in the Seychelles.

721
01:25:06,083 --> 01:25:09,916
So my now husband actually got a job

722
01:25:09,916 --> 01:25:12,458
there. And this was all just before

723
01:25:12,458 --> 01:25:14,666
COVID. He got a job at the University of

724
01:25:14,666 --> 01:25:16,375
Seychelles. And at the time, I was

725
01:25:16,375 --> 01:25:17,958
actually writing up my PhD and just

726
01:25:17,958 --> 01:25:20,250
working from home. So we just packed up

727
01:25:20,250 --> 01:25:21,625
our bags and moved to Seychelles.

728
01:25:21,625 --> 01:25:22,958
And I just finished writing up from

729
01:25:22,958 --> 01:25:24,916
there. I managed to coax my supervisors

730
01:25:24,916 --> 01:25:28,833
into allowing me to do that. And then,

731
01:25:28,833 --> 01:25:30,083
yeah, and then since then, I actually

732
01:25:30,083 --> 01:25:32,041
just got remote working postdocs.

733
01:25:32,083 --> 01:25:34,708
And I just continued working in South

734
01:25:34,708 --> 01:25:37,166
Africa, but being in Seychelles. And

735
01:25:37,166 --> 01:25:38,750
yeah, we spent we ended up spending what

736
01:25:38,750 --> 01:25:41,166
is meant to be two years. We ended up

737
01:25:41,166 --> 01:25:42,708
spending six and a half years there,

738
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:44,833
which was really cool because we got to

739
01:25:44,833 --> 01:25:47,041
collaborate with Sibeth at the same time.

740
01:25:47,125 --> 01:25:50,250
We basically brought stereo bruv's to the

741
01:25:50,250 --> 01:25:51,416
Seychelles. You know, they've been doing

742
01:25:51,416 --> 01:25:52,916
a lot of other bruv's work, but with the

743
01:25:52,916 --> 01:25:55,208
single camera system that we kind of

744
01:25:55,208 --> 01:25:56,791
developed the stereo bruv's platform.

745
01:25:57,083 --> 01:25:57,708
There we did a lot of

746
01:25:57,708 --> 01:25:58,750
cool bruv's projects.

747
01:25:58,750 --> 01:26:00,333
And we now have a really nice bruv's

748
01:26:00,333 --> 01:26:03,000
network in Seychelles. And it really has

749
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:05,041
expanded to the entire Western Indian

750
01:26:05,041 --> 01:26:07,125
Ocean region. We've got a really nice

751
01:26:07,125 --> 01:26:09,208
network now of people all over. I mean,

752
01:26:09,208 --> 01:26:10,125
the bruv's community

753
01:26:10,125 --> 01:26:12,041
is growing by the day.

754
01:26:12,041 --> 01:26:15,083
And you also it really was just like a

755
01:26:15,083 --> 01:26:16,833
such a cool foot in the door to be able

756
01:26:16,833 --> 01:26:18,958
to do a lot of cool regional work as well

757
01:26:18,958 --> 01:26:22,000
and really expand the side platform into

758
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:24,166
the wheel as well. So, yeah.

759
01:26:25,500 --> 01:26:27,166
So, so people listening, if they're not

760
01:26:27,166 --> 01:26:28,916
familiar with the Seychelles, which is a

761
01:26:28,916 --> 01:26:30,666
lot of people in North America, I've been

762
01:26:30,666 --> 01:26:33,000
there. When you finish this podcast, go

763
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:35,833
online, Google up Seychelles. It's as

764
01:26:35,833 --> 01:26:37,041
beautiful as it looks.

765
01:26:37,458 --> 01:26:39,041
And if you had to play, if you had to

766
01:26:39,041 --> 01:26:41,833
write up somewhere your thesis, yeah,

767
01:26:41,916 --> 01:26:43,208
Seychelles would be like probably one of

768
01:26:43,208 --> 01:26:46,166
my top three places to pick to do. So

769
01:26:46,166 --> 01:26:47,541
it's beautiful there. It's just

770
01:26:47,541 --> 01:26:49,416
absolutely beautiful in the Seychelles.

771
01:26:50,666 --> 01:26:52,208
So, so we're okay. So we're all very

772
01:26:52,208 --> 01:26:54,416
jealous and envious of you that you got

773
01:26:54,416 --> 01:26:57,291
to. Yeah, you got to work there. And so

774
01:26:57,291 --> 01:26:59,000
you got to start a bruv. I know, I know.

775
01:26:59,041 --> 01:27:01,625
But Seyhab's done a lot of stuff up in

776
01:27:01,625 --> 01:27:03,250
the Seychelles that had at least have had

777
01:27:03,250 --> 01:27:05,083
people going up there. I know Paul Cowley

778
01:27:05,083 --> 01:27:07,791
had some students. Chantel Elston was due

779
01:27:07,791 --> 01:27:10,916
to her PhD up there and

780
01:27:10,916 --> 01:27:12,708
save, of course, Save Our Seas.

781
01:27:13,500 --> 01:27:15,208
His base has one of their bases of

782
01:27:15,208 --> 01:27:17,583
operations out there, too. Yes. Did you

783
01:27:17,583 --> 01:27:19,375
did you get much support? Do you happen

784
01:27:19,375 --> 01:27:21,500
to, do you get much support from Save Our

785
01:27:21,500 --> 01:27:22,791
Seas while you're out there for any of

786
01:27:22,791 --> 01:27:23,791
your work you're doing?

787
01:27:25,000 --> 01:27:26,791
Yes, quite a lot, actually, what we

788
01:27:26,791 --> 01:27:28,375
connected with them and we, we also

789
01:27:28,375 --> 01:27:30,041
provided a lot of support for them in

790
01:27:30,041 --> 01:27:32,125
terms of, you know, maybe sharing some

791
01:27:32,125 --> 01:27:33,666
equipment, you know, getting equipment

792
01:27:33,666 --> 01:27:34,791
out there to the, to

793
01:27:34,791 --> 01:27:35,916
the islands for them.

794
01:27:36,208 --> 01:27:37,291
I mean, they really had such a great

795
01:27:37,291 --> 01:27:39,375
platform there as well themselves. And

796
01:27:39,375 --> 01:27:41,625
then, yeah, we kind of just really

797
01:27:41,625 --> 01:27:43,666
started working together and coming up

798
01:27:43,666 --> 01:27:45,500
with some joint projects and they managed

799
01:27:45,500 --> 01:27:47,333
to get us out there to come and do some

800
01:27:47,333 --> 01:27:49,041
stereo brads for them. So yeah, it was

801
01:27:49,041 --> 01:27:50,625
really developed into a really cool

802
01:27:50,625 --> 01:27:51,500
partnership, actually.

803
01:27:52,708 --> 01:27:54,125
Yeah, they've been they've been they've

804
01:27:54,125 --> 01:27:56,041
been super well. In fact, they helped get

805
01:27:56,041 --> 01:27:57,833
our podcast off the ground about five

806
01:27:57,833 --> 01:27:59,500
years ago. They were with Save Our Seas

807
01:27:59,500 --> 01:28:01,416
and they've been really, really

808
01:28:01,416 --> 01:28:05,500
supportive of this part of our project,

809
01:28:05,750 --> 01:28:07,708
of our, my research as well.

810
01:28:08,333 --> 01:28:11,458
So, so with all this stuff, so what's

811
01:28:11,458 --> 01:28:13,000
your sort of what's your what's your sort

812
01:28:13,000 --> 01:28:15,583
of do you have a favorite fish that

813
01:28:15,583 --> 01:28:17,041
you've that you've seen yet?

814
01:28:17,083 --> 01:28:20,500
I do funny ask actually, and then we had

815
01:28:20,500 --> 01:28:22,250
this round of questioning in a recent

816
01:28:22,250 --> 01:28:23,708
like group of friends and colleagues and

817
01:28:23,708 --> 01:28:25,166
no one else had a favorite fish and I was

818
01:28:25,166 --> 01:28:26,458
surprised to hear this.

819
01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:31,083
But mine is the bluefin kingfish as we

820
01:28:31,083 --> 01:28:32,666
call it or travaille. So

821
01:28:32,666 --> 01:28:34,041
it's carrying small ampergus.

822
01:28:34,041 --> 01:28:36,500
Oh, yeah. If anyone wants to go look it

823
01:28:36,500 --> 01:28:39,541
up. It's just the coolest fish and so

824
01:28:39,541 --> 01:28:41,375
beautiful. And I get to see it because

825
01:28:41,375 --> 01:28:43,166
it's fairly common and I get to see it

826
01:28:43,166 --> 01:28:44,750
when I'm scuba diving and I see it on the

827
01:28:44,750 --> 01:28:47,000
braves and it's just, oh, yeah,

828
01:28:47,291 --> 01:28:48,000
definitely my favorite.

829
01:28:48,500 --> 01:28:49,708
Okay, I'll get a little more specific.

830
01:28:50,125 --> 01:28:51,583
What's your favorite shark array?

831
01:28:52,708 --> 01:28:57,166
Oh, now that's a bit trickier.

832
01:29:00,250 --> 01:29:03,541
I mean, I love an eagle ray as like, as

833
01:29:03,541 --> 01:29:06,250
common as they, they can be. But I think

834
01:29:06,250 --> 01:29:09,791
for sharks, or this is tricky and I can't

835
01:29:09,791 --> 01:29:10,500
believe I haven't actually

836
01:29:10,500 --> 01:29:11,666
followed this property yet.

837
01:29:12,791 --> 01:29:14,541
It's got to be the threshold. It's the

838
01:29:14,541 --> 01:29:15,625
end of the show. We're going to

839
01:29:16,041 --> 01:29:30,833
get to the year. You were just in the

840
01:29:30,833 --> 01:29:35,916
comores doing some stuff and I saw some

841
01:29:35,916 --> 01:29:40,166
really pretty very cool shark well sharks

842
01:29:40,166 --> 01:29:42,041
and rays, rays are just flat sharks to

843
01:29:42,041 --> 01:29:43,916
me. That's all that but and you had some

844
01:29:43,916 --> 01:29:45,500
really you had some really cool stuff.

845
01:29:46,041 --> 01:29:47,375
Can you talk a little bit about that,

846
01:29:47,375 --> 01:29:50,708
about that project? Yeah, so she's I've

847
01:29:50,708 --> 01:29:52,750
been so privileged to join on a couple of

848
01:29:52,750 --> 01:29:55,125
these next in expeditions actually so

849
01:29:55,125 --> 01:29:55,958
that's how we got

850
01:29:55,958 --> 01:29:58,166
involved. Like I said, cyber's

851
01:29:59,250 --> 01:30:01,583
the more platform is like a supporting a

852
01:30:01,583 --> 01:30:04,750
provisional platform. So we provide the

853
01:30:04,750 --> 01:30:07,500
skills and the expertise and the

854
01:30:07,500 --> 01:30:09,416
technologies to do these breath surveys

855
01:30:09,416 --> 01:30:11,500
and we collaborate and support on a lot

856
01:30:11,500 --> 01:30:13,166
of these projects. So we often get pulled

857
01:30:13,166 --> 01:30:16,000
in to these bigger kind of projects and

858
01:30:16,000 --> 01:30:17,791
we'll be we'll form

859
01:30:17,791 --> 01:30:19,125
like one component of that.

860
01:30:20,083 --> 01:30:22,250
So this actually started our partnership

861
01:30:22,250 --> 01:30:23,666
with next and kind of started when we

862
01:30:23,666 --> 01:30:26,750
went to the Maldives in 2022 where we did

863
01:30:26,750 --> 01:30:28,083
a similar thing to what we did in the

864
01:30:28,083 --> 01:30:29,958
comor so our most recent one was the

865
01:30:29,958 --> 01:30:32,416
comor's expedition but essentially it's a

866
01:30:32,416 --> 01:30:35,583
neck ton now also ocean sensors. I'm not

867
01:30:35,583 --> 01:30:37,333
sure about how it all works there with

868
01:30:37,333 --> 01:30:41,041
within the institutions, but yeah next on

869
01:30:41,041 --> 01:30:44,000
kind of lead these expeditions and bring

870
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:45,541
in a lot of partners and we work with the

871
01:30:45,541 --> 01:30:48,666
local organizations and government really

872
01:30:48,666 --> 01:30:49,041
trying to support these.

873
01:30:49,041 --> 01:30:53,083
Whether it's small island developing

874
01:30:53,083 --> 01:30:54,708
states or East African countries and

875
01:30:54,708 --> 01:30:56,208
countries in the West Indian Ocean that

876
01:30:56,208 --> 01:30:59,083
are really needing this technical support

877
01:30:59,083 --> 01:31:02,750
to really assess marine biodiversity and

878
01:31:02,750 --> 01:31:04,875
to explore the oceans and to improve

879
01:31:04,875 --> 01:31:06,041
management and protection etc.

880
01:31:06,083 --> 01:31:09,250
So, so yeah, so side of have collaborated

881
01:31:09,250 --> 01:31:11,666
on a few of these projects. And the most

882
01:31:11,666 --> 01:31:13,250
recent one was in the commels which I

883
01:31:13,250 --> 01:31:16,250
never been to which was amazing. Such a

884
01:31:16,250 --> 01:31:18,541
beautiful country. So really, I've had

885
01:31:18,541 --> 01:31:19,916
the privilege of seeing some really

886
01:31:19,916 --> 01:31:23,375
beautiful tropical island nations in the

887
01:31:23,375 --> 01:31:24,458
in the Indian Ocean and

888
01:31:24,458 --> 01:31:25,583
started in the Maldives.

889
01:31:25,583 --> 01:31:26,958
Obviously I lived in Seychelles and now

890
01:31:26,958 --> 01:31:28,750
with the commels and people probably

891
01:31:28,750 --> 01:31:30,041
going to start hating on me now.

892
01:31:30,166 --> 01:31:31,250
Tough life.

893
01:31:31,666 --> 01:31:33,125
Yeah.

894
01:31:36,041 --> 01:31:36,791
They're beautiful places.

895
01:31:37,041 --> 01:31:39,041
Such an amazing.

896
01:31:40,041 --> 01:31:42,541
I know such amazing opportunities and I

897
01:31:42,541 --> 01:31:45,125
really am so privileged. So yeah, we

898
01:31:45,125 --> 01:31:48,208
headed out. We spent a solid four weeks

899
01:31:48,208 --> 01:31:50,375
on the Angra Piquenya which is a local

900
01:31:50,375 --> 01:31:53,416
research vessel that is based in Durban

901
01:31:53,416 --> 01:31:54,333
actually. So they were

902
01:31:54,333 --> 01:31:55,041
also one of the partners.

903
01:31:55,041 --> 01:31:57,750
They sailed the boat up and we all went

904
01:31:57,750 --> 01:31:59,375
into a few into comorbidities and we

905
01:31:59,375 --> 01:32:01,583
spent four weeks out at sea traveling

906
01:32:01,583 --> 01:32:04,500
around the main island and then also to a

907
01:32:04,500 --> 01:32:05,041
couple of the island sites.

908
01:32:05,041 --> 01:32:08,541
We can't they will as a team, we kind of

909
01:32:08,541 --> 01:32:10,375
identified some priority areas working

910
01:32:10,375 --> 01:32:12,791
with local comorbidant scientists and

911
01:32:12,791 --> 01:32:16,333
NGOs and local governments to really try

912
01:32:16,333 --> 01:32:18,291
to in a fire place so that we can go and

913
01:32:18,291 --> 01:32:21,750
collect observation data and a number of

914
01:32:21,750 --> 01:32:22,541
different types of data

915
01:32:22,541 --> 01:32:24,041
actually not just the broves.

916
01:32:24,083 --> 01:32:27,500
And we basically just have this mini

917
01:32:27,500 --> 01:32:30,000
scientific expedition to go and collect

918
01:32:30,000 --> 01:32:31,666
as much information as we can that can

919
01:32:31,666 --> 01:32:33,291
really feed into these management

920
01:32:33,291 --> 01:32:34,625
conservation processes

921
01:32:34,625 --> 01:32:36,750
helping support decision making.

922
01:32:38,333 --> 01:32:38,500
Yeah.

923
01:32:39,041 --> 01:32:40,250
I think I see you mentioned the neck ton

924
01:32:40,250 --> 01:32:42,333
also mentioned the ocean senses and the

925
01:32:42,333 --> 01:32:43,875
ocean sense has been another organization

926
01:32:43,875 --> 01:32:45,041
has been really supportive of the

927
01:32:45,041 --> 01:32:46,541
research I've been doing. I just want to

928
01:32:46,541 --> 01:32:48,833
give a shout out to them as well. They've

929
01:32:48,833 --> 01:32:50,166
been really supportive of this kind of

930
01:32:50,166 --> 01:32:52,125
this kind of research on stuff.

931
01:32:52,458 --> 01:32:54,833
But you saw some I remember like you saw

932
01:32:54,833 --> 01:32:57,166
like a one of the sharks, but I thought

933
01:32:57,166 --> 01:32:59,083
was kind of cool as you videotaped false

934
01:32:59,083 --> 01:33:01,416
cat shark pseudo trichus. Yes.

935
01:33:02,791 --> 01:33:04,958
That was one of our most exciting ones.

936
01:33:04,958 --> 01:33:07,083
I'd never seen anything like that. And I

937
01:33:07,083 --> 01:33:08,791
remember as all like the best part of

938
01:33:08,791 --> 01:33:10,500
this work is when you just like you have

939
01:33:10,500 --> 01:33:12,000
no idea what to expect and you put your

940
01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:13,458
lander bras down there.

941
01:33:13,791 --> 01:33:15,000
So we were actually working with our

942
01:33:15,000 --> 01:33:17,000
really deep water systems. They actually

943
01:33:17,000 --> 01:33:19,083
the acoustic release system. So they're

944
01:33:19,083 --> 01:33:22,041
not tethered with a rope and we send it

945
01:33:22,041 --> 01:33:25,541
to the to the deep oceans now up to like

946
01:33:25,541 --> 01:33:27,041
a thousand meters on this trip.

947
01:33:27,083 --> 01:33:29,666
But our deep deep system news brand new

948
01:33:29,666 --> 01:33:32,125
system can actually go to 3500 meters

949
01:33:32,125 --> 01:33:35,125
now, which is super exciting. Wow. Wow.

950
01:33:36,375 --> 01:33:38,541
But on this trip, we managed to get to

951
01:33:38,541 --> 01:33:40,666
just under a thousand meters. I think

952
01:33:40,666 --> 01:33:41,458
nine hundred eighty

953
01:33:41,458 --> 01:33:42,625
meters or something like that.

954
01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:45,208
So we really able to see some amazing

955
01:33:45,208 --> 01:33:46,708
things from like that completely

956
01:33:46,708 --> 01:33:49,000
unexplored deep ocean and you're the

957
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:50,666
false catch up was super exciting. I

958
01:33:50,666 --> 01:33:52,250
didn't really know what it was. We were

959
01:33:52,250 --> 01:33:53,875
there looking through our Smith's book

960
01:33:53,875 --> 01:33:55,041
and trying to identify it.

961
01:33:55,083 --> 01:33:57,291
And then they are eventually when we

962
01:33:57,291 --> 01:34:01,833
found it. Yeah, very cool to see. I know

963
01:34:01,833 --> 01:34:04,333
one of the ones that I saw that I think I

964
01:34:04,333 --> 01:34:06,000
tagged and named was that you get used to

965
01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:07,166
you videotaped a white

966
01:34:07,166 --> 01:34:09,791
cheek lantern shark at Moctis Al

967
01:34:09,791 --> 01:34:12,375
which was a species I actually named with

968
01:34:12,375 --> 01:34:15,166
some colleagues back in 2016. That's that

969
01:34:15,166 --> 01:34:17,375
was a new record for the comores that I'm

970
01:34:17,375 --> 01:34:20,375
aware of. I don't know. So that was

971
01:34:20,375 --> 01:34:21,291
definitely a new record. I

972
01:34:21,291 --> 01:34:22,041
know we got it. Yeah, I can.

973
01:34:22,083 --> 01:34:23,625
Yeah, I actually need to follow up with

974
01:34:23,625 --> 01:34:26,333
you day. I need to pull up about all

975
01:34:26,333 --> 01:34:27,958
these species that you identified from

976
01:34:27,958 --> 01:34:29,291
this trip because a lot of them we didn't

977
01:34:29,291 --> 01:34:31,166
know at the time and we actually talked

978
01:34:31,166 --> 01:34:32,833
about trying to do a workshop with you or

979
01:34:32,833 --> 01:34:34,833
something. So I'm putting it out there

980
01:34:34,833 --> 01:34:37,458
live on on screen that we are going to do

981
01:34:37,458 --> 01:34:38,333
the workshop with you

982
01:34:38,333 --> 01:34:39,791
one day. Yeah, no, no, no.

983
01:34:40,208 --> 01:34:42,916
Perfect. We're holding to it. And has my

984
01:34:42,916 --> 01:34:44,500
number he's because he sent me video

985
01:34:44,500 --> 01:34:46,333
clips from the Maldives and a few other

986
01:34:46,333 --> 01:34:49,833
places the ID so he's yeah, yeah, yeah,

987
01:34:49,833 --> 01:34:51,583
give me a shout out. Well, I love to work

988
01:34:51,583 --> 01:34:54,791
with you on this here. So yeah, I'm

989
01:34:54,791 --> 01:34:56,208
curious. I'm curious about the deep sea

990
01:34:56,208 --> 01:34:57,833
work that you've been that you've been

991
01:34:57,833 --> 01:35:01,791
doing, especially, especially now with

992
01:35:01,791 --> 01:35:05,500
deep sea mining being such a huge, like

993
01:35:05,500 --> 01:35:06,958
such a big thing in

994
01:35:06,958 --> 01:35:09,041
the US in in sort of the.

995
01:35:09,083 --> 01:35:11,041
Sort of the the ICA like the

996
01:35:11,041 --> 01:35:13,875
International seabed authority with this

997
01:35:13,875 --> 01:35:16,583
work. Can this like is this new

998
01:35:16,583 --> 01:35:18,500
technology to go down to these depths

999
01:35:18,500 --> 01:35:19,916
because you know, we just don't have the

1000
01:35:19,916 --> 01:35:22,666
information about what's down there. We

1001
01:35:22,666 --> 01:35:24,208
don't have the ability. We never had the

1002
01:35:24,208 --> 01:35:26,375
ability like this before to kind of view

1003
01:35:26,375 --> 01:35:28,500
what's down there on a on a longer term

1004
01:35:28,500 --> 01:35:30,750
basis other than sending some ROVs down.

1005
01:35:31,416 --> 01:35:33,000
Is this something that you're looking at

1006
01:35:33,000 --> 01:35:35,416
in the future to do more work and to

1007
01:35:35,416 --> 01:35:38,541
provide a little bit more knowledge on

1008
01:35:38,541 --> 01:35:41,375
what's down in the depths of 1000 meters

1009
01:35:41,375 --> 01:35:45,083
or so. Yes, 100%. And that's totally kind

1010
01:35:45,083 --> 01:35:47,083
of the direction that we are wanting to

1011
01:35:47,083 --> 01:35:48,958
move it now we quite well established in

1012
01:35:48,958 --> 01:35:51,666
terms of like our shallow coastal slope

1013
01:35:51,666 --> 01:35:54,750
ecosystem surveys, you know, with the

1014
01:35:54,750 --> 01:35:56,416
shallow birds and a lot of lot of people

1015
01:35:56,416 --> 01:35:57,916
are doing that now I can start to fill

1016
01:35:57,916 --> 01:36:01,041
those gaps inside of really like pie and

1017
01:36:01,083 --> 01:36:03,250
you know, really leading the work. I

1018
01:36:03,250 --> 01:36:04,916
would say the Western you notion terms of

1019
01:36:04,916 --> 01:36:06,500
developing these kinds of technologies

1020
01:36:06,500 --> 01:36:09,291
that are so much cheaper and more

1021
01:36:09,291 --> 01:36:11,000
accessible than having to work off these

1022
01:36:11,000 --> 01:36:12,333
big research ships that are really

1023
01:36:12,333 --> 01:36:14,875
expensive and you know, we can even use

1024
01:36:14,875 --> 01:36:15,875
these deep water lander.

1025
01:36:19,916 --> 01:36:23,875
So yeah, we really and I mean the the and

1026
01:36:23,875 --> 01:36:25,750
and this team working with the engineers

1027
01:36:25,750 --> 01:36:27,583
are constantly improving on the

1028
01:36:27,583 --> 01:36:29,791
technologies and developing these land.

1029
01:36:29,791 --> 01:36:31,333
So we call them lander.

1030
01:36:35,083 --> 01:36:37,208
You know, the big deep sea exploration,

1031
01:36:37,500 --> 01:36:38,750
you know, they're not technically those

1032
01:36:38,750 --> 01:36:40,250
things that would land on the bottom, you

1033
01:36:40,250 --> 01:36:42,833
know, would be your landers. So these are

1034
01:36:42,833 --> 01:36:44,583
essentially the same kind of thing. They

1035
01:36:44,583 --> 01:36:45,500
just our acoustic

1036
01:36:45,500 --> 01:36:47,208
release being thick bros.

1037
01:36:48,083 --> 01:36:50,375
And they obviously quite a bit bigger.

1038
01:36:50,375 --> 01:36:53,458
They have this hard density foam and the

1039
01:36:53,458 --> 01:36:56,000
acoustic release mechanisms on them. And

1040
01:36:56,000 --> 01:36:58,416
then we wait them with some extra balance

1041
01:36:58,416 --> 01:36:59,916
so that they sink down to the bottom. And

1042
01:36:59,916 --> 01:37:01,500
then when we ping them with the acoustic

1043
01:37:01,500 --> 01:37:04,208
transducer, then they basically throw it

1044
01:37:04,208 --> 01:37:06,041
back up to the surface and they're quite

1045
01:37:06,041 --> 01:37:07,000
easy to use the

1046
01:37:07,000 --> 01:37:08,041
technology is quite accessible.

1047
01:37:08,041 --> 01:37:10,125
They're a lot more cost effective. So

1048
01:37:10,125 --> 01:37:11,666
it's really something we trying to expand

1049
01:37:11,666 --> 01:37:14,333
not only in South Africa, but also in the

1050
01:37:14,333 --> 01:37:16,750
Indian Ocean and making and doing a lot

1051
01:37:16,750 --> 01:37:18,125
of training around it and making it

1052
01:37:18,125 --> 01:37:20,416
accessible, having these shared resources

1053
01:37:20,416 --> 01:37:22,916
in the region so that people can do a lot

1054
01:37:22,916 --> 01:37:24,625
more deep sea exploration because that is

1055
01:37:24,625 --> 01:37:25,958
obviously the huge gap,

1056
01:37:25,958 --> 01:37:27,041
you know, it's patient.

1057
01:37:27,083 --> 01:37:29,666
And especially with all this deep sea

1058
01:37:29,666 --> 01:37:32,750
interests, mining interest and, you know,

1059
01:37:33,416 --> 01:37:35,041
fisheries and things, you know, we have

1060
01:37:35,041 --> 01:37:37,833
so little information in terms of our

1061
01:37:37,833 --> 01:37:39,666
biodiversity now and our vulnerable

1062
01:37:39,666 --> 01:37:42,041
ecosystems. So I really do think it's

1063
01:37:42,041 --> 01:37:43,041
going to be a game changer.

1064
01:37:43,041 --> 01:37:46,666
Oh, 100%. Especially if you if you if you

1065
01:37:46,666 --> 01:37:50,083
can make it accessible to others to use

1066
01:37:50,083 --> 01:37:52,375
like small island states and so forth to

1067
01:37:52,375 --> 01:37:54,375
use because they're the ones who are

1068
01:37:54,375 --> 01:37:55,958
getting the most pressure, especially in

1069
01:37:55,958 --> 01:37:59,000
the in the Pacific right now in the US.

1070
01:37:59,333 --> 01:38:01,250
So it'd be nice for them to be able to

1071
01:38:01,250 --> 01:38:03,041
have access to those. Yeah.

1072
01:38:03,041 --> 01:38:06,375
So, so, so where do you see now to have

1073
01:38:06,375 --> 01:38:08,250
this kind of really cool setup for a

1074
01:38:08,250 --> 01:38:10,958
position now? What where do you see your

1075
01:38:10,958 --> 01:38:12,666
career going from here? Where do you see

1076
01:38:12,666 --> 01:38:14,625
yourself in the next say 1020 years?

1077
01:38:14,625 --> 01:38:15,500
It's interesting because we're actually

1078
01:38:15,500 --> 01:38:17,416
just kind of talking about doing our

1079
01:38:17,416 --> 01:38:20,041
marine platform strategy thinking for the

1080
01:38:20,041 --> 01:38:22,375
next five years. And, you know, for me

1081
01:38:22,375 --> 01:38:24,208
personally, I really would just like to

1082
01:38:24,208 --> 01:38:26,125
be a part of that growth. You know, we I

1083
01:38:26,125 --> 01:38:28,416
see so many new exciting things

1084
01:38:28,416 --> 01:38:29,250
happening, especially

1085
01:38:29,250 --> 01:38:30,041
in the deep sea space.

1086
01:38:30,083 --> 01:38:32,041
So I think I'd really like to move a bit

1087
01:38:32,041 --> 01:38:34,250
more into that because before I've really

1088
01:38:34,250 --> 01:38:36,708
only been working in, you know, into the

1089
01:38:36,708 --> 01:38:39,125
shallow kind of slope, shallow and slow

1090
01:38:39,125 --> 01:38:40,875
kind of ecosystems, you know, and also

1091
01:38:40,875 --> 01:38:43,333
like sub tropical tropical areas.

1092
01:38:44,125 --> 01:38:46,416
And I just think there's so much that we

1093
01:38:46,416 --> 01:38:48,083
don't know about. There's so many

1094
01:38:48,083 --> 01:38:50,416
unexplored areas that are just, I just

1095
01:38:50,416 --> 01:38:52,000
really want to go and see what's there

1096
01:38:52,000 --> 01:38:54,458
really. So I really do foresee myself

1097
01:38:54,458 --> 01:38:56,666
just kind of continuing within them, like

1098
01:38:56,666 --> 01:38:58,166
marine, like remote

1099
01:38:58,166 --> 01:38:59,041
imagery kind of space.

1100
01:38:59,083 --> 01:39:00,583
You know, there's so many cool things

1101
01:39:00,583 --> 01:39:02,875
that we can use to actually just observe,

1102
01:39:04,083 --> 01:39:05,625
you know, these environments that are

1103
01:39:05,625 --> 01:39:07,875
totally unexplored and we have no idea

1104
01:39:07,875 --> 01:39:09,291
what's down there learning about these

1105
01:39:09,291 --> 01:39:11,750
new species. And so, yeah, but I think

1106
01:39:11,750 --> 01:39:15,041
also really, like a lot of my passion is

1107
01:39:15,041 --> 01:39:17,291
in training and capacity building, but

1108
01:39:17,291 --> 01:39:18,458
also bringing having that

1109
01:39:18,458 --> 01:39:19,958
connectivity to the ocean.

1110
01:39:20,083 --> 01:39:22,708
And so also like using our videos to

1111
01:39:22,708 --> 01:39:24,500
create this awareness and this love for

1112
01:39:24,500 --> 01:39:27,916
the ocean and to to really just take it

1113
01:39:27,916 --> 01:39:30,458
to and share it with other people. I have

1114
01:39:30,458 --> 01:39:31,750
the privilege of seeing these amazing

1115
01:39:31,750 --> 01:39:33,166
things and I want to be able to share

1116
01:39:33,166 --> 01:39:34,458
that with other people as well.

1117
01:39:35,041 --> 01:39:36,625
So who knows? I might end up more in like

1118
01:39:36,625 --> 01:39:39,041
a science communication kind of space.

1119
01:39:39,083 --> 01:39:41,708
But I do think I really am like a

1120
01:39:41,708 --> 01:39:43,583
scientist at heart and I'd like to get

1121
01:39:43,583 --> 01:39:45,500
into the nitty-gritty of the science and

1122
01:39:45,500 --> 01:39:47,666
making sure that we can, you know, really

1123
01:39:47,666 --> 01:39:50,250
get some impactful science output that

1124
01:39:50,250 --> 01:39:52,416
can be used for management or decision

1125
01:39:52,416 --> 01:39:53,708
making or whatever it is.

1126
01:39:53,708 --> 01:39:55,583
So I really I would like to like start to

1127
01:39:55,583 --> 01:39:57,833
work more in that space, making sure that

1128
01:39:57,833 --> 01:39:59,750
we have impact in what we do and making

1129
01:39:59,750 --> 01:40:01,333
sure that we don't just collect these

1130
01:40:01,333 --> 01:40:03,500
samples and we see cool videos of sharks,

1131
01:40:03,500 --> 01:40:05,708
but really that that information can get

1132
01:40:05,708 --> 01:40:07,000
translated into making

1133
01:40:07,000 --> 01:40:08,041
meaningful decisions.

1134
01:40:08,041 --> 01:40:11,166
And having an impact, you know, in what

1135
01:40:11,166 --> 01:40:13,125
we love and what we love to protect.

1136
01:40:13,125 --> 01:40:15,166
Absolutely. That's that's great. Great.

1137
01:40:15,666 --> 01:40:16,916
Well, okay. It's been really awesome

1138
01:40:16,916 --> 01:40:19,000
having you on the show here to talk about

1139
01:40:19,000 --> 01:40:19,625
the research you've

1140
01:40:19,625 --> 01:40:20,333
been doing and everything.

1141
01:40:20,333 --> 01:40:22,041
Well, we'll definitely have you back

1142
01:40:22,041 --> 01:40:24,250
later on and maybe won't be camping next

1143
01:40:24,250 --> 01:40:26,750
time with those. This is really been kind

1144
01:40:26,750 --> 01:40:28,500
of this has been really awesome. I have

1145
01:40:28,500 --> 01:40:29,041
to say it's really awesome.

1146
01:40:29,083 --> 01:40:32,083
You took the time to do that stuff. It'll

1147
01:40:32,083 --> 01:40:33,291
definitely be one of our more memorable

1148
01:40:33,291 --> 01:40:36,291
shows. That's for sure. And but we'll

1149
01:40:36,291 --> 01:40:38,000
definitely have you back in the future.

1150
01:40:38,375 --> 01:40:40,375
And hopefully I'll I'll have a chance to

1151
01:40:40,375 --> 01:40:41,625
meet you in person on one of my next

1152
01:40:41,625 --> 01:40:42,625
trips to South Africa.

1153
01:40:42,875 --> 01:40:44,958
I'll definitely try to let you hit you up

1154
01:40:44,958 --> 01:40:46,541
and we'll maybe connect up and have a

1155
01:40:46,541 --> 01:40:48,708
coffee or something. So anyway, thank you

1156
01:40:48,708 --> 01:40:50,125
again so much for your time and

1157
01:40:50,125 --> 01:40:51,250
everything. I would love that.

1158
01:40:51,583 --> 01:40:53,791
Please reach out. Yeah. Thank you, guys.

1159
01:40:53,791 --> 01:40:55,125
I really appreciate it. It's been great

1160
01:40:55,125 --> 01:40:56,666
chatting. Thank you, Kaylee, for joining

1161
01:40:56,666 --> 01:40:57,750
us on today's episode of

1162
01:40:57,750 --> 01:40:58,041
the Beyond Jaws podcast.

1163
01:40:58,083 --> 01:41:00,000
It was great to have you on, especially

1164
01:41:00,000 --> 01:41:02,791
David's the first time where someone's in

1165
01:41:02,791 --> 01:41:05,750
a car on this podcast. I've done it. I've

1166
01:41:05,750 --> 01:41:07,583
done that where someone was in Hawaii in

1167
01:41:07,583 --> 01:41:09,500
a car and in his pickup truck

1168
01:41:09,500 --> 01:41:11,000
and doing an interview there.

1169
01:41:11,708 --> 01:41:14,208
It comes with some challenges, but it was

1170
01:41:14,208 --> 01:41:16,708
a lot of fun. It was great to see her

1171
01:41:16,708 --> 01:41:18,875
with all the lights on in the car and

1172
01:41:18,875 --> 01:41:20,333
then the lights going off automatically

1173
01:41:20,333 --> 01:41:21,041
and the lights coming on.

1174
01:41:21,041 --> 01:41:23,833
It was a lot of fun to get it makes it a

1175
01:41:23,833 --> 01:41:26,375
little bit more dynamic. But it's also

1176
01:41:26,375 --> 01:41:27,791
goes to show like, you know, Kaylee just

1177
01:41:27,791 --> 01:41:29,541
loves being outdoors. She loves being in

1178
01:41:29,541 --> 01:41:31,916
the wilderness. She loves being

1179
01:41:31,916 --> 01:41:33,500
underwater, of course, as well.

1180
01:41:34,291 --> 01:41:35,833
But we got to talk about a lot of really

1181
01:41:35,833 --> 01:41:37,500
interesting stuff. Stereo bros where you

1182
01:41:37,500 --> 01:41:40,166
can measure the length of the fish and

1183
01:41:40,166 --> 01:41:42,041
different and different types of

1184
01:41:42,041 --> 01:41:44,083
organisms. Deep sea bros,

1185
01:41:44,083 --> 01:41:45,041
which was which was really cool.

1186
01:41:46,041 --> 01:41:48,083
Living in the Seychelles for six years,

1187
01:41:49,125 --> 01:41:50,708
living in or doing some work in the

1188
01:41:50,708 --> 01:41:53,041
Comoros and then just being a part of

1189
01:41:53,041 --> 01:41:55,625
Cyab, which allows her to do all this

1190
01:41:55,625 --> 01:41:57,375
different type of research, which I think

1191
01:41:57,375 --> 01:41:59,208
is amazing. So what are your thoughts

1192
01:41:59,208 --> 01:42:00,250
just coming off this

1193
01:42:00,250 --> 01:42:02,041
interview? What were you thinking?

1194
01:42:02,083 --> 01:42:05,958
Well, I was obviously pretty interested,

1195
01:42:06,166 --> 01:42:07,750
particularly since I'd seen she was doing

1196
01:42:07,750 --> 01:42:10,041
some work in the Comoros, which is a

1197
01:42:10,041 --> 01:42:11,666
place I haven't been, but it's got a it's

1198
01:42:11,666 --> 01:42:13,958
got an amazing history to it. Now is

1199
01:42:13,958 --> 01:42:16,333
where the second seal account was

1200
01:42:16,333 --> 01:42:20,833
discovered back in 1952 or so.

1201
01:42:20,833 --> 01:42:21,541
Right. Right.

1202
01:42:39,500 --> 01:42:45,041
And I think it helped to be pretty succinct about that, but these are all END measuring trees, whereas over the years, yesterday we didn't know if they would have looked at the

1203
01:42:45,041 --> 01:42:46,541
wall as if they could have been in the wild, they didn't know what they actually knew, and I think their are here because they've seen overall what they ever thoughtlander pulling an Bull. shark she talked about was seeing the

1204
01:42:46,541 --> 01:42:49,666
false cat shark why she was doing there.

1205
01:42:49,666 --> 01:42:50,958
And that was, that was pretty awesome to

1206
01:42:50,958 --> 01:42:52,875
see swimming around in

1207
01:42:52,875 --> 01:42:54,458
situ versus being dead

1208
01:42:54,458 --> 01:42:54,916
on a boat.

1209
01:42:55,708 --> 01:42:57,750
And, and at least, and I had, I did, I

1210
01:42:57,750 --> 01:42:59,000
did a couple of pictures

1211
01:42:59,000 --> 01:43:00,208
they had, including one

1212
01:43:00,458 --> 01:43:01,583
lantern shark, which was a

1213
01:43:01,583 --> 01:43:03,500
new record for the Camors.

1214
01:43:03,750 --> 01:43:04,541
And it was actually a species

1215
01:43:04,541 --> 01:43:06,291
I had named about 10 years ago.

1216
01:43:07,166 --> 01:43:08,375
And this was the first record

1217
01:43:08,375 --> 01:43:09,833
of it from, from the Camors.

1218
01:43:09,833 --> 01:43:10,500
And that kind of a, that

1219
01:43:10,500 --> 01:43:11,333
was kind of nice for me.

1220
01:43:11,333 --> 01:43:12,500
It was actually some science

1221
01:43:12,500 --> 01:43:13,666
and action actually happening.

1222
01:43:14,583 --> 01:43:15,875
And, and, um, yeah.

1223
01:43:15,875 --> 01:43:17,583
And as you say, it was kind of neat

1224
01:43:17,583 --> 01:43:19,458
having her do this from her car while

1225
01:43:19,458 --> 01:43:22,083
she's out on a camping expedition right

1226
01:43:22,083 --> 01:43:22,791
now with her husband.

1227
01:43:23,291 --> 01:43:25,041
So, uh, that was a new one.

1228
01:43:25,208 --> 01:43:26,000
That was definitely a

1229
01:43:26,000 --> 01:43:27,375
new one at doing there.

1230
01:43:27,375 --> 01:43:28,583
So, uh, but yeah, she was great.

1231
01:43:28,875 --> 01:43:30,500
Another, so I didn't know her as well as

1232
01:43:30,500 --> 01:43:31,250
some of the other people we

1233
01:43:31,250 --> 01:43:32,458
have on from South Africa.

1234
01:43:32,458 --> 01:43:34,875
Um, but you know, like just another one,

1235
01:43:34,875 --> 01:43:36,583
these are dynamic young researchers up

1236
01:43:36,583 --> 01:43:39,000
and coming, uh, in South Africa.

1237
01:43:39,458 --> 01:43:41,125
And, uh, I was really glad we had her on

1238
01:43:41,125 --> 01:43:42,166
and it's going to be fun to have her back

1239
01:43:42,166 --> 01:43:44,083
on again, you know, you know, in

1240
01:43:44,166 --> 01:43:47,666
town from what went through South five thousand and then one day we got one from South eight thousand

1241
01:43:52,666 --> 01:44:03,583
on Forestry Zone

1242
01:44:03,583 --> 01:44:08,125
applying reflection in 2014.

1243
01:44:08,125 --> 01:44:09,666
And then, see, I'm gonna say in advance hard work for a lot of people because

1244
01:44:09,666 --> 01:44:10,166
they, you know, if it really reigns up

1245
01:44:10,166 --> 01:44:11,291
to 10 years, we'll be able to have a really fun conversation with them tomorrow.

1246
01:44:11,291 --> 01:44:15,708
Um, but yeah. some of those on, you know, underwater in

1247
01:44:15,708 --> 01:44:16,791
like, you know, 900

1248
01:44:16,791 --> 01:44:17,666
meters, I think is what

1249
01:44:17,666 --> 01:44:19,291
she said, or just over 900 meters.

1250
01:44:19,750 --> 01:44:21,000
You know, there's probably some stuff

1251
01:44:21,000 --> 01:44:22,375
that you haven't seen

1252
01:44:22,375 --> 01:44:23,625
before, we haven't seen

1253
01:44:23,625 --> 01:44:26,250
before and maybe an

1254
01:44:26,250 --> 01:44:29,125
ability to add new species.

1255
01:44:29,375 --> 01:44:30,416
Let me ask you this question.

1256
01:44:31,916 --> 01:44:32,791
You're the expert on

1257
01:44:32,791 --> 01:44:34,916
discovering species and naming them.

1258
01:44:35,708 --> 01:44:38,625
Would you be able to just like name a new

1259
01:44:38,625 --> 01:44:41,166
species if you just see it on video?

1260
01:44:41,833 --> 01:44:44,000
No, you have to have the body.

1261
01:44:44,250 --> 01:44:46,666
You have to have a body as you say, you

1262
01:44:46,666 --> 01:44:49,333
have to, it's like an

1263
01:44:49,333 --> 01:44:50,541
archive, like an artifact

1264
01:44:50,541 --> 01:44:51,583
you put in your museum.

1265
01:44:52,500 --> 01:44:54,833
And so if somebody comes along later on

1266
01:44:54,833 --> 01:44:56,375
and has a similar

1267
01:44:56,375 --> 01:44:57,458
looking species, they need to

1268
01:44:57,458 --> 01:44:58,333
compare to that because

1269
01:44:58,333 --> 01:44:59,875
that's called a holotype.

1270
01:45:00,250 --> 01:45:01,916
That is what it's all based off of.

1271
01:45:02,291 --> 01:45:04,041
So videotapes not going to do it.

1272
01:45:04,458 --> 01:45:05,083
So you think that'll

1273
01:45:05,083 --> 01:45:06,166
change in the future though?

1274
01:45:06,166 --> 01:45:07,541
Or do you think that will always be you

1275
01:45:07,541 --> 01:45:09,000
always need like the holotype?

1276
01:45:09,458 --> 01:45:10,833
You're going to have to have a holotype

1277
01:45:10,833 --> 01:45:12,166
specimen because there's

1278
01:45:12,166 --> 01:45:14,250
so as much as you get used

1279
01:45:14,250 --> 01:45:16,666
to like trying to identify stuff through

1280
01:45:16,666 --> 01:45:18,125
videos, there's always a

1281
01:45:18,125 --> 01:45:19,166
little bit of uncertainty.

1282
01:45:19,833 --> 01:45:21,250
Right. And so you want to have actually

1283
01:45:21,250 --> 01:45:22,500
have a specimen in hand

1284
01:45:22,500 --> 01:45:24,041
that you pick up and look at.

1285
01:45:24,041 --> 01:45:25,375
And I can tell you that a lot

1286
01:45:25,375 --> 01:45:28,208
of species are very similar.

1287
01:45:28,833 --> 01:45:30,958
And so you have and the characteristics

1288
01:45:30,958 --> 01:45:31,583
are going to be very

1289
01:45:31,583 --> 01:45:33,291
subtle with sharks, particularly

1290
01:45:33,458 --> 01:45:36,791
things like lantern sharks, skates, some

1291
01:45:36,791 --> 01:45:37,750
of the other cat sharks.

1292
01:45:37,750 --> 01:45:39,625
You have to actually physically have a

1293
01:45:39,625 --> 01:45:40,500
specimen to look at.

1294
01:45:40,666 --> 01:45:41,708
You can't really confirm it.

1295
01:45:41,708 --> 01:45:43,000
You get the genus, but

1296
01:45:43,000 --> 01:45:44,291
not the species sometimes.

1297
01:45:44,583 --> 01:45:46,625
OK. OK. Interesting. OK.

1298
01:45:47,000 --> 01:45:48,625
Well, look, this was a fun episode.

1299
01:45:48,916 --> 01:45:49,750
Kaylee was awesome.

1300
01:45:50,250 --> 01:45:52,000
Can't wait to have her back on talk more

1301
01:45:52,000 --> 01:45:53,833
science and more science work that she's

1302
01:45:53,833 --> 01:45:55,583
been able or she will be able to do.

1303
01:45:56,208 --> 01:45:57,250
There's so much stuff that we could

1304
01:45:57,250 --> 01:45:59,000
probably dive into, maybe even on a bonus

1305
01:45:59,000 --> 01:46:00,458
episode with some of the work that she's

1306
01:46:00,458 --> 01:46:01,541
been doing and her and her colleagues.

1307
01:46:01,750 --> 01:46:05,000
But I really thought it was cool that I

1308
01:46:05,000 --> 01:46:06,916
was part of so many different projects.

1309
01:46:06,916 --> 01:46:08,166
They support a lot of different projects

1310
01:46:08,166 --> 01:46:09,916
from a technology point of view and an

1311
01:46:09,916 --> 01:46:11,000
expertise point of view.

1312
01:46:11,375 --> 01:46:12,833
But then, you know, to support other

1313
01:46:12,833 --> 01:46:15,000
countries and other islands that are

1314
01:46:15,000 --> 01:46:16,416
doing some pretty incredible things.

1315
01:46:16,666 --> 01:46:18,458
So that was really cool to be able to

1316
01:46:18,458 --> 01:46:19,541
hear that, especially

1317
01:46:19,541 --> 01:46:20,875
living in the Seychelles.

1318
01:46:20,875 --> 01:46:22,666
That's pretty awesome. But we'll have

1319
01:46:22,666 --> 01:46:24,125
Kaylee back for sure.

1320
01:46:24,583 --> 01:46:27,083
We'll put down ways

1321
01:46:27,083 --> 01:46:28,208
that you can contact her.

1322
01:46:28,208 --> 01:46:29,291
And of course, Dave, if somebody wanted

1323
01:46:29,291 --> 01:46:30,916
to contact you, how would they do so?

1324
01:46:31,000 --> 01:46:33,500
I'm a law shark guy on Instagram.

1325
01:46:34,166 --> 01:46:35,458
It's probably the best one. Or you go to

1326
01:46:35,458 --> 01:46:38,166
my YouTube channel, LawSharkGuy.

1327
01:46:39,041 --> 01:46:39,333
Awesome.

1328
01:46:39,333 --> 01:46:41,666
And check out the series that Andrew and

1329
01:46:41,666 --> 01:46:43,000
I are working on, Searching for

1330
01:46:43,000 --> 01:46:44,333
LawShark's Extincter Live

1331
01:46:44,333 --> 01:46:46,083
and consider subscribing.

1332
01:46:46,083 --> 01:46:46,625
Appreciate it.

1333
01:46:47,083 --> 01:46:47,916
Perfect. Awesome.

1334
01:46:48,458 --> 01:46:50,041
Well, again, thank you very much, Dave.

1335
01:46:50,041 --> 01:46:52,083
And if you wanted to watch this, if

1336
01:46:52,083 --> 01:46:53,250
you're watching this on YouTube, let us

1337
01:46:53,250 --> 01:46:54,000
know what you think.

1338
01:46:54,000 --> 01:46:55,000
Put in the comments below.

1339
01:46:55,541 --> 01:46:55,750
Subscribe.

1340
01:46:56,208 --> 01:46:58,500
And of course, if you don't know how to

1341
01:46:58,500 --> 01:46:59,166
get ahold of us, you can go

1342
01:46:59,166 --> 01:47:00,500
to Instagram, BeyondJawsPod.

1343
01:47:00,875 --> 01:47:02,458
And we appreciate both from both of them.

1344
01:47:02,458 --> 01:47:03,833
Dave and I, thank you so much for joining

1345
01:47:03,833 --> 01:47:05,333
us on today's episode of

1346
01:47:05,333 --> 01:47:06,500
the BeyondJaws Podcast.

1347
01:47:06,708 --> 01:47:07,333
Have a great day.

1348
01:47:07,333 --> 01:47:07,833
We'll talk to you next

1349
01:47:07,833 --> 01:47:09,208
time and happy conservation.