Learning About Whale Sharks with Simon Pierce Marine Megafauna, Conservation & Discovery

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We're back with another episode here on

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the Beyond Jaws podcast,

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and we have the executive director and

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founder of the Marine Megafauna

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Foundation. We have Simon Pierce,

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who's here today to talk

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about his work with whale sharks.

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Really interesting talk.

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It's going to be fun to talk about

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something that he

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thought originally was a

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boring kind of species and then

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discovered that we

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didn't really know that much

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about it. So even though

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it's on a lot of documentaries,

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you know, a lot of people

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have done some work on it.

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Simon has done a lot of pioneering work

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with getting to know, uh,

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we gained to know whale sharks as long

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with, along with MMF.

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We're going to talk about on today's

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episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Let's start the show. Hey everybody.

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Welcome back to another exciting episode

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of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I am your cohost, Andrew Lewin here with

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my cohost, Dr. David Ebert. David,

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are you ready to talk

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about whale sharks today?

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Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to

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this one. I'm having Simon Pierce on.

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He's been, he's always traveling

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somewhere, dive in some exotic, beautiful

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location. So it's really nice to actually

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be able to, to, to find a time.

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We can have a chat with them to talk

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everything about whale sharks. And, uh,

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I'm so I'm really looking

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forward to this show here. And, uh,

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we've got a whole bunch of questions I

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want to ask about whale sharks today.

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So I'm hoping to learn something as well.

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I can imagine. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm

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excited too. I mean,

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this is a species that we

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don't really get to talk about.

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I don't think we've talked a lot about

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whale sharks on this podcast at all.

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And it's obviously a species that is

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charismatic. It's, it's massive. Uh,

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it's got some cool spots on it and those

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spots come into, to

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come into play in terms of

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identification, but it's something that

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we just don't know a

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lot about these sharks.

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And Simon's here to give us the lowdown

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and to talk about the work that they do,

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uh, that Marine megafauna does all over

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the world, which is really

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fun to see. Uh, and, and yeah,

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they've got a lot of places that they,

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they, uh, manage. They

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have a lot of people,

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great people that help them manage, you

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know, from managing in

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different places and different

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countries. And I think it's just great to

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be able to see an

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organization work that way. Um,

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especially being able to cover so much

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ground or so much water, so

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to speak. So this is gonna be

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a fun interview. And here is the

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interview with Simon Pierce

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talking about Marine megaphone or

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whale sharks and Marine megafauna

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foundation. Enjoy the

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interview and we'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Simon, welcome to the Beyond Jaws

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podcast. Are you ready to talk about

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whale sharks and other

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megafauna? I would love to write that.

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Well, welcome everyone to

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another episode of the Beyond

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Jaws podcast where we really, or we have

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a man who really know it needs no

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introduction. We have the

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whale shark legend himself. Dr. Simon

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Pierce is joining us today.

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Simon is a co-founder of the

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Marine mega fauna foundation with Andrea

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Marshall, who had been on

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our podcast on in May of 2023,

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episode 46. The Marine megafauna

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foundation is a us nonprofit based

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organization that works

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globally to research and conserve

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endangered ocean wildlife. Simon's a

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world expert in whale

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sharks, having studied them for over two

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decades and has led the

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current global conservation

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assessment of whale sharks. He's a

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co-editor of the book whale sharks

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biology ecology and conservation

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and has published two other books and

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over 100 research publications in

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addition to numerous

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book chapters and conference papers. His

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specialist expertise is on photo

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identification, using photos

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and videos to identify and track

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individual animals. He's helped develop

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the shark book AI, a global photo

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identification platform that is now

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tracking over 22,000

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individuals of 11 shark species.

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Wowser. He has over 10,000 people

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contributing to the database. Like he

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could be literally elected

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president of a small country. Simon works

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with a number of regional

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collaborators and research teams

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all over the world, including Mozambique,

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Tanzania, Madagascar, Galapagos, Ecuador,

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Oban, and many other locations.

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And he's also an outstanding wildlife

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photographer, but today he's coming to us

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from his home country of New Zealand.

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His current position is the executive

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director of the Marine mega foundation

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and he, Simon's educational background,

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he did a bachelor's of science in ecology

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at the University of Wellington and

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honors at the University of

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Queensland in Brisbane, Australia and a

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PhD at the University of

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Queensland in Brisbane.

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And Simon, welcome to the show, buddy.

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Thanks very much, Dave. And whale shark

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legend is going straight into my bio.

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So I think that's what

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we're here to do. As it should.

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So I'll start off and just ask you, like,

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how did you get into interest in the

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marine sciences, sharks and

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whale sharks? How did you get interested

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in that whole whole area? Yeah, thanks.

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This I always kind of feel like

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biologists, often the people that are

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completely unsuitable for anything else.

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And I definitely fit them all there.

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Like, so it's probably got a fairly

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similar background to to you two and a

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lot of other people in that, like just

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growing up really like unnaturally

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obsessed with wildlife

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and just really interested in what was

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going on. And I was kind of raised on

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especially some of the New Zealand's

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natural history films and

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books and things like that.

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And I got really, really interested in

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endangered species research and kind of

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what we now know is conservation biology,

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basically like researchers and

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practitioners are working to bring back

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some of the most endangered species in

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the country from the edge of extinction.

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So I got kind of particularly interested

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in some of the I guess some of the stuff

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that was a little bit less loved.

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So things like reptiles and sharks and

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things like that that maybe didn't have

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such a good public relations campaign.

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And yeah, I got really drawn to marine

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biology just as a particular interest in

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that, that kind of feeling that we just

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had so much to learn and so

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much work to do in terms of the

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conservation. Like it was pretty obvious

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with these documentaries and things and

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books and stuff like they were they were

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almost all about people working on land

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of which there was

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plenty to do in New Zealand.

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But there was very little about stuff in

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the water. And so I really decided to I

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wanted to learn more about marine biology

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and things and then learn to dive and

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realize the water in New Zealand is

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actually quite cold.

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So I thought if I was going to if I was

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going to pursue this as a as a career,

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like I should definitely like to make a

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better life choice than that.

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So I moved over to Brisbane in Australia

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and I was lucky enough to end up in a lab

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at the University of Queensland that was

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specializing in sharks and rays.

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So for my PhD, I ended up working mostly

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on stingrays and again, because there was

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just so little known about them.

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And yeah, just like when I was trying to

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figure out what was going on, I mean,

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Brisbane is a city of around two million

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people, which is pretty big

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on this side of the world.

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And yet we were still uncovering these

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then undescribed species and things like

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immediate, like literally in the

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intertitling zone of the city.

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So it just sort of showed how little was

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known about that group.

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And I had a fabulous teammates in the

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lab, including Andrea Marshall that you

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mentioned on the intro.

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So her and I became really good friends

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and she was at the time trying to work

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out what her PhD was going to be on.

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And she'd spent a lot of time in Africa

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working on white sharks and other things

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and that really fall in love with manta

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rays when she went up to

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visit Mozambique for a week.

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So since she did that, she was kind of

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trying to zero in on Mozambique and the

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manta rays and things.

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And she was hassling me a lot like, don't

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you want to come over

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and kind of check it out?

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And but you might notice when she's on

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the podcast, like

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Andrea is extremely dramatic.

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So like on the same token,

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she was like, it's amazing.

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And it's like, also, if I want hot water,

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I have to boil

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coconuts and things like that.

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That sounds kind of crappy.

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So, so, yeah, but but in the end, when

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she got an opportunity to move up to a

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lodge in Mozambique where they had hot

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water on tap, which was a real novelty,

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she was like, look, that they're really

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interested in supporting the manta rays,

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manta ray research, but they're really

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interested in whale sharks as well.

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And we've been chatting about whale

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sharks quite a while at that point.

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So she was like, well,

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don't you want to come over?

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And I was like, well, actually, whale

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sharks sound really boring.

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Um, because it's really that this really

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big fish, you are on

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documentaries that iconic.

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We must know

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everything about whale sharks.

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And I was just into the weird

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stuff that no one cared about.

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And so, but like, you know, she's a

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friend and she's quite persistent.

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So to kind of humor her, I started

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looking into it and realized that

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actually we didn't know very much about

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whale sharks at all.

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So at that point, like back in the kind

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of mid 2000s, there was still active

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commercial fisheries for the

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01:09:19,083 --> 01:09:20,416
species like targeting them.

275
01:09:21,250 --> 01:09:22,750
Clearly, there was a lot going on in

276
01:09:22,750 --> 01:09:23,875
terms of conservation needs.

277
01:09:24,416 --> 01:09:25,208
And when I was trying to look at the

278
01:09:25,208 --> 01:09:26,750
papers and things, they just weren't any

279
01:09:26,750 --> 01:09:29,500
or there were very few like that was

280
01:09:29,500 --> 01:09:31,500
really when kind of what I call modern

281
01:09:31,500 --> 01:09:33,041
whale shark research was just beginning.

282
01:09:33,291 --> 01:09:34,708
So it was like, well, actually, the

283
01:09:34,708 --> 01:09:36,250
species is really under spread.

284
01:09:36,708 --> 01:09:38,541
Um, there's very little known about them.

285
01:09:38,833 --> 01:09:40,083
And I quickly realized that the

286
01:09:40,083 --> 01:09:42,125
documentaries had done on being done on

287
01:09:42,125 --> 01:09:43,500
the species were were

288
01:09:43,500 --> 01:09:45,166
like fairly speculative.

289
01:09:45,500 --> 01:09:47,166
It would be fairly fair to say.

290
01:09:47,208 --> 01:09:48,791
And with the benefit of hindsight and

291
01:09:48,791 --> 01:09:50,708
that's I was like, oh, OK,

292
01:09:50,916 --> 01:09:52,625
like this does sound kind of cool.

293
01:09:52,625 --> 01:09:54,708
So I went over to Mozambique for the

294
01:09:54,708 --> 01:09:55,750
first time and I'd

295
01:09:55,750 --> 01:09:56,791
never been in Africa before.

296
01:09:57,333 --> 01:09:58,625
So I thought I was going to get kind of

297
01:09:58,625 --> 01:10:00,375
like jumped by lions as I

298
01:10:00,375 --> 01:10:01,916
descended from the plane.

299
01:10:02,916 --> 01:10:05,750
But yeah, as soon as like, I mean, Dave,

300
01:10:05,750 --> 01:10:07,375
you definitely know, like Africa really

301
01:10:07,375 --> 01:10:09,291
gets a hold on your soul pretty quickly.

302
01:10:09,666 --> 01:10:14,666
Yeah. And and I it was funny, though,

303
01:10:14,666 --> 01:10:16,125
because when I got up to Mozambique for

304
01:10:16,125 --> 01:10:17,708
the very first time and like there was

305
01:10:17,708 --> 01:10:19,416
all these people for the lodges and dive

306
01:10:19,416 --> 01:10:20,916
centers and that gathered to meet me.

307
01:10:21,333 --> 01:10:23,000
And just before I walked in, Andre had

308
01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:25,833
pulled me aside and was like, by the way,

309
01:10:26,750 --> 01:10:28,000
I've kind of sold you as

310
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:30,083
like this whale shark expert.

311
01:10:31,125 --> 01:10:34,666
So and I've never seen one like, you

312
01:10:34,666 --> 01:10:35,958
know, I was just coming coming from

313
01:10:35,958 --> 01:10:36,666
Australia and New

314
01:10:36,666 --> 01:10:37,666
Zealand and stuff in there.

315
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:40,666
And she was like, so when you do see one,

316
01:10:40,666 --> 01:10:41,833
like try and be cool.

317
01:10:42,625 --> 01:10:44,125
So thanks.

318
01:10:45,916 --> 01:10:49,041
So, yeah, so like so that that was kind

319
01:10:49,041 --> 01:10:49,791
of how things kicked

320
01:10:49,791 --> 01:10:51,000
off over in Mozambique.

321
01:10:51,708 --> 01:10:54,500
And yeah, how that kind of winding

322
01:10:54,500 --> 01:10:56,500
journey to studying whale sharks.

323
01:10:56,500 --> 01:10:58,375
And of course, like as boring as they

324
01:10:58,375 --> 01:11:01,166
sounded to to me is like, as soon as you

325
01:11:01,166 --> 01:11:02,916
actually see them, they are amazing

326
01:11:02,916 --> 01:11:04,875
animals and like,

327
01:11:04,875 --> 01:11:06,916
yeah, they're really cool.

328
01:11:07,166 --> 01:11:09,000
I kind of think of them as are you

329
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:11,916
familiar with the hymbos like the kind of

330
01:11:11,916 --> 01:11:14,916
like lovable but slightly dim, muscular

331
01:11:14,916 --> 01:11:17,166
kind of like genre of men.

332
01:11:17,958 --> 01:11:19,833
I think it was hymbos. Yeah.

333
01:11:20,166 --> 01:11:21,333
So that's really quite adorable.

334
01:11:21,958 --> 01:11:22,916
Let me ask you this.

335
01:11:22,916 --> 01:11:24,916
Were you did you act calm when you first

336
01:11:24,916 --> 01:11:27,708
saw the whale shark or did you like kind

337
01:11:27,708 --> 01:11:29,125
of jump for joy and act like

338
01:11:29,125 --> 01:11:30,083
you've never seen one before?

339
01:11:30,875 --> 01:11:32,333
Well, actually, because I've been trying

340
01:11:32,333 --> 01:11:34,125
to figure out how to research the things

341
01:11:34,125 --> 01:11:36,083
and I kind of like that was kind of my

342
01:11:36,083 --> 01:11:38,416
introduction into photo identification

343
01:11:38,416 --> 01:11:41,875
when I realized how like trying to work

344
01:11:41,875 --> 01:11:43,041
out what we could do.

345
01:11:43,125 --> 01:11:45,541
And I was so focused on trying to get the

346
01:11:45,541 --> 01:11:48,625
ID shots that like I was just like, okay,

347
01:11:48,625 --> 01:11:51,333
like right side, left side, right? It's a

348
01:11:51,333 --> 01:11:53,500
male or a female and that kind of thing.

349
01:11:53,500 --> 01:11:55,875
And then like, got all that kind of like

350
01:11:55,875 --> 01:11:56,958
took my camera when I was

351
01:11:56,958 --> 01:11:59,416
out. Wow, it's yeah, pretty big.

352
01:11:59,958 --> 01:12:04,083
I love it.

353
01:12:04,458 --> 01:12:08,916
Now, is there a bit of a, well, when you

354
01:12:08,916 --> 01:12:11,500
back up before, if before you Andrea like

355
01:12:11,500 --> 01:12:14,000
hijacked you into the whale sharks, were

356
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:16,458
you looking at other other like little

357
01:12:16,458 --> 01:12:18,000
known shark and race species like you got

358
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:20,416
interested in looking at rays before we

359
01:12:20,416 --> 01:12:21,208
really got into that?

360
01:12:21,208 --> 01:12:23,375
I mean, you look at the rays and some of

361
01:12:23,375 --> 01:12:23,833
that stuff when

362
01:12:23,833 --> 01:12:24,541
you're still in Australia.

363
01:12:25,375 --> 01:12:28,458
Yeah, so yeah, so my PhD was kind of like

364
01:12:28,458 --> 01:12:30,791
inshore elasma ranks, really. So I

365
01:12:30,791 --> 01:12:34,083
initially we were trying to look at

366
01:12:34,083 --> 01:12:36,583
habitat modification and the potential

367
01:12:36,583 --> 01:12:39,500
effects on on especially intertidal well,

368
01:12:40,125 --> 01:12:41,541
inshore sharks and rays, I should say,

369
01:12:41,541 --> 01:12:42,708
like, because there's a lot of in

370
01:12:42,708 --> 01:12:43,375
southeast Queensland,

371
01:12:43,625 --> 01:12:44,625
there's been a lot of

372
01:12:44,666 --> 01:12:48,958
coastal development of areas that used to

373
01:12:48,958 --> 01:12:51,041
be mangrove dominated. And like, we

374
01:12:51,041 --> 01:12:54,125
really didn't know what lived there. So

375
01:12:54,125 --> 01:12:57,875
yeah, that was, that was, I was just

376
01:12:57,875 --> 01:12:59,333
trying to figure out what lived there,

377
01:12:59,666 --> 01:13:02,000
really. So like, ended up towing

378
01:13:02,125 --> 01:13:05,875
same nets around a lot during the daytime

379
01:13:05,875 --> 01:13:07,375
and not catching very much. And then we

380
01:13:07,375 --> 01:13:08,833
realized that most of the species were

381
01:13:08,833 --> 01:13:11,875
nocturnal. So so nighttime, we caught a

382
01:13:11,875 --> 01:13:15,500
lot more. Yeah, so it's, it's actually

383
01:13:15,500 --> 01:13:16,916
quite sweet now, because every time I go

384
01:13:16,916 --> 01:13:19,083
past like, you know, you get that, like,

385
01:13:19,083 --> 01:13:22,000
mangrove stink of like a noxic mud, every

386
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:23,666
time I go past that with the window open

387
01:13:23,666 --> 01:13:24,583
in the car, I'm just like,

388
01:13:24,583 --> 01:13:25,750
Oh, good times.

389
01:13:25,750 --> 01:13:26,291
Don't bother you anymore.

390
01:13:27,041 --> 01:13:27,416
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

391
01:13:27,958 --> 01:13:28,625
memories.

392
01:13:29,541 --> 01:13:29,750
Yeah.

393
01:13:31,041 --> 01:13:33,166
Did you ever did you so you hadn't seen a

394
01:13:33,166 --> 01:13:34,875
whale shark until he actually went to

395
01:13:34,875 --> 01:13:37,208
Mozambique and then it turned out there's

396
01:13:37,208 --> 01:13:39,000
quite an ag they tend to aggregate

397
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:40,875
there's what you've found out some of the

398
01:13:40,916 --> 01:13:43,500
Yeah, well, the reason why this lodge was

399
01:13:43,500 --> 01:13:46,041
really interested in them is because

400
01:13:46,041 --> 01:13:48,083
they've been having kind of a bear out on

401
01:13:48,083 --> 01:13:50,791
the deck and notices all of these things

402
01:13:50,791 --> 01:13:52,583
sticking out in the water. And that just

403
01:13:52,583 --> 01:13:55,458
happened to be there one day when there

404
01:13:55,458 --> 01:13:58,333
was one of these kind of aggregations of

405
01:13:58,333 --> 01:13:59,791
whale sharks when a whole bunch of them

406
01:13:59,791 --> 01:14:02,250
come together to feed at the same same

407
01:14:02,250 --> 01:14:04,000
time, same place on the same thing.

408
01:14:04,541 --> 01:14:07,458
So yeah, but yeah, that was like, I had

409
01:14:07,458 --> 01:14:09,750
not seen one before I went over to Africa

410
01:14:09,750 --> 01:14:11,791
for that first time. But yeah, it was a

411
01:14:11,791 --> 01:14:13,291
totally new kind of thing for me. I mean,

412
01:14:13,291 --> 01:14:15,791
I've been working on mostly quite small

413
01:14:15,791 --> 01:14:18,291
rays and sharks, like up to kind of wobby

414
01:14:18,291 --> 01:14:19,708
gong sharks was kind of the biggest thing

415
01:14:19,708 --> 01:14:20,458
I really worked with.

416
01:14:20,500 --> 01:14:22,708
Yeah, and really, really up until you

417
01:14:22,708 --> 01:14:24,416
started doing it, there really was not a

418
01:14:24,416 --> 01:14:26,083
lot of correct me if I'm wrong, but I

419
01:14:26,083 --> 01:14:29,125
don't think anybody was really doing much

420
01:14:29,125 --> 01:14:31,416
in whale sharks up until you kind of

421
01:14:31,416 --> 01:14:33,916
started to poke around in them and then

422
01:14:33,916 --> 01:14:36,041
since then other people have gotten into

423
01:14:36,041 --> 01:14:37,500
them in different areas. I know like this

424
01:14:37,500 --> 01:14:40,708
say shells and in in South America and

425
01:14:40,708 --> 01:14:41,708
different places, but

426
01:14:41,708 --> 01:14:42,958
there really was not.

427
01:14:43,916 --> 01:14:45,458
I can think of a couple people, but not

428
01:14:45,458 --> 01:14:47,416
much done on a whale sharks before you

429
01:14:47,416 --> 01:14:48,083
kind of started

430
01:14:48,083 --> 01:14:49,416
getting into them. Correct.

431
01:14:50,708 --> 01:14:52,958
Yeah, there was I mean, I'm, you know, I

432
01:14:52,958 --> 01:14:54,375
was really lucky to be able to kind of

433
01:14:54,375 --> 01:14:56,541
build on what there was a it was a

434
01:14:56,541 --> 01:14:59,416
medical doctor, Jeff Taylor, that had

435
01:14:59,416 --> 01:15:02,000
kind of uncovered the the aggregation

436
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:04,083
that was going on off a

437
01:15:04,083 --> 01:15:05,416
minglery reef in Western Australia.

438
01:15:05,458 --> 01:15:09,166
And then John Stevens, that was really

439
01:15:09,166 --> 01:15:11,125
pioneering shark research in Australia

440
01:15:11,125 --> 01:15:14,333
and and his master's student, Brad

441
01:15:14,333 --> 01:15:15,875
Norman, had done some stuff with the

442
01:15:15,875 --> 01:15:16,958
tourism industry in Western

443
01:15:16,958 --> 01:15:19,875
Australia back in the 1990s.

444
01:15:20,500 --> 01:15:22,416
So there was I was really lucky to be

445
01:15:22,416 --> 01:15:25,750
able to learn from from people like them

446
01:15:25,750 --> 01:15:28,500
in terms of the papers that done and

447
01:15:28,500 --> 01:15:29,541
things, but there wasn't

448
01:15:29,541 --> 01:15:30,583
too much at that point.

449
01:15:31,458 --> 01:15:34,625
And David Roa that was working the say

450
01:15:34,625 --> 01:15:38,208
shells had had started I think also

451
01:15:38,208 --> 01:15:40,333
during the 90s and he was able to give me

452
01:15:40,333 --> 01:15:40,875
some really good

453
01:15:40,875 --> 01:15:42,541
advice on getting started.

454
01:15:42,791 --> 01:15:45,000
But but yeah, it was kind of the the

455
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:47,041
fairly early days of whale shark

456
01:15:47,041 --> 01:15:49,375
research. So it was basically a feeling

457
01:15:49,375 --> 01:15:50,416
of trying to work it out together.

458
01:15:50,458 --> 01:15:52,416
Well, so interesting, too, because you

459
01:15:52,416 --> 01:15:53,458
mentioned at the beginning, like, oh,

460
01:15:53,458 --> 01:15:54,625
they're so boring, you always see them in

461
01:15:54,625 --> 01:15:56,208
like documentaries, you always see them,

462
01:15:56,208 --> 01:15:57,958
you know, around, you see people taking

463
01:15:57,958 --> 01:15:59,333
pictures and stuff. And then all of a

464
01:15:59,333 --> 01:16:00,375
sudden, you realize, well, actually

465
01:16:00,375 --> 01:16:02,666
hasn't been as much science as you

466
01:16:02,666 --> 01:16:05,000
expected, I assume, right? Is that would

467
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:06,000
that be a correct assessment?

468
01:16:07,250 --> 01:16:08,750
Yeah, definitely. And I was like, because

469
01:16:08,750 --> 01:16:11,291
I was trying to, I was trying to, before

470
01:16:11,291 --> 01:16:12,666
I went to Mozambique, I was trying to

471
01:16:12,666 --> 01:16:14,041
work out like, how do I even research

472
01:16:14,041 --> 01:16:15,458
them? And it was really funny, because,

473
01:16:15,875 --> 01:16:16,416
yeah, no, that's a good question.

474
01:16:16,458 --> 01:16:19,666
Like, because Dave, you know, you know,

475
01:16:19,875 --> 01:16:22,208
Mike Bennett, that was my and Andrea's

476
01:16:22,208 --> 01:16:27,250
PhD supervisor. And he's like, specialist

477
01:16:27,250 --> 01:16:29,375
in biomechanics and biology and things

478
01:16:29,375 --> 01:16:30,625
and was not really that used

479
01:16:30,625 --> 01:16:31,416
to working on live animals.

480
01:16:31,458 --> 01:16:34,250
So I went in and I was chatting to him

481
01:16:34,250 --> 01:16:35,416
about the whale sharks. And he was kind

482
01:16:35,416 --> 01:16:37,375
of like, wait, you're gonna have to kill

483
01:16:37,375 --> 01:16:41,666
a few. I was like, what? And he's going,

484
01:16:41,666 --> 01:16:43,041
well, how else are you going to research

485
01:16:43,041 --> 01:16:46,250
them? And like, there really wasn't that

486
01:16:46,250 --> 01:16:50,458
much kind of like, your work going on in

487
01:16:50,458 --> 01:16:52,708
sharks at the at the time, like, it was

488
01:16:52,708 --> 01:16:55,166
pretty, pretty early days in that

489
01:16:55,166 --> 01:16:59,208
respect. And, and I was kind of like,

490
01:16:59,208 --> 01:17:00,416
well, I'll see if I could work out how I can do that.

491
01:17:00,458 --> 01:17:02,125
And see if I could work out how to avoid

492
01:17:02,125 --> 01:17:03,541
that, because that doesn't really sound

493
01:17:03,541 --> 01:17:05,833
like something I want to be doing. So I

494
01:17:05,833 --> 01:17:08,041
actually went pretty deep into the marine

495
01:17:08,041 --> 01:17:10,333
mammal literature, because obviously they

496
01:17:10,333 --> 01:17:12,000
had a lot of experience trying to work on

497
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:14,583
large live animals that I

498
01:17:14,583 --> 01:17:15,541
thought we could learn from.

499
01:17:15,833 --> 01:17:18,250
So yeah, a lot of my early reading was

500
01:17:18,250 --> 01:17:19,708
was really looking into the work that had

501
01:17:19,708 --> 01:17:20,416
been done on whales and things.

502
01:17:21,458 --> 01:17:23,833
Yeah, because yeah, because that was

503
01:17:23,833 --> 01:17:26,375
trying to figure out how to work with an

504
01:17:26,375 --> 01:17:28,875
animal so big. I mean, I knew I knew this

505
01:17:28,875 --> 01:17:30,500
different places they would they would

506
01:17:30,500 --> 01:17:32,791
get get whale sharks period, Taiwan's

507
01:17:32,791 --> 01:17:34,375
another spot where they do get they do.

508
01:17:34,625 --> 01:17:36,500
I think that's been bad. It's been bad

509
01:17:36,500 --> 01:17:38,166
now for a while with the whale sharks

510
01:17:38,166 --> 01:17:40,000
there, but they used to have a I mean, I

511
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:41,500
know when I was there in 88, my first

512
01:17:41,500 --> 01:17:43,083
trip there in 88, there was there fishing

513
01:17:43,083 --> 01:17:46,250
whale sharks. And then in 96, that first

514
01:17:46,250 --> 01:17:48,666
record of the fecundity of

515
01:17:48,666 --> 01:17:49,458
like over 300 baby whale sharks.

516
01:17:50,458 --> 01:17:53,708
The guy who reported that juan was a good

517
01:17:53,708 --> 01:17:55,125
friend of mine. I knew we're both grad

518
01:17:55,125 --> 01:17:58,000
students at the same time in Taiwan. And

519
01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:00,250
yeah, they used to get I knew they I was

520
01:18:00,250 --> 01:18:01,708
the one thing I used to get them there.

521
01:18:01,708 --> 01:18:03,625
But but yeah, you're talking like a

522
01:18:03,625 --> 01:18:08,666
massive animal that I don't think I've

523
01:18:08,666 --> 01:18:09,416
never seen one diving, by the way, actually.

524
01:18:09,458 --> 01:18:12,416
So it's kind of like I yeah, I mean, I

525
01:18:12,416 --> 01:18:13,833
got a that's one of those that's on my

526
01:18:13,833 --> 01:18:15,666
bucket list to see some time, even though

527
01:18:15,666 --> 01:18:18,458
I'm it's the more high profile I have to

528
01:18:18,458 --> 01:18:20,541
I can't even imagine it's like being in

529
01:18:20,541 --> 01:18:22,083
the water with one of those things so big

530
01:18:22,083 --> 01:18:24,416
trying to keep up with them.

531
01:18:25,458 --> 01:18:27,000
Well, from what I've heard, it's normally

532
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:28,708
people go snorkeling because it's almost

533
01:18:28,708 --> 01:18:30,625
like you get in the water, you see them

534
01:18:30,625 --> 01:18:32,750
go by, but they're faster than you think.

535
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:34,291
And then so a lot of people will get out

536
01:18:34,291 --> 01:18:36,333
of the water, they'll boat with the whale

537
01:18:36,333 --> 01:18:37,958
sharks, then you plop in the water again

538
01:18:37,958 --> 01:18:40,083
as you intercept their path. Is that how

539
01:18:40,083 --> 01:18:41,958
it's a friend of mine told me that's how

540
01:18:41,958 --> 01:18:44,291
it was done, like in Cancun area or in

541
01:18:44,291 --> 01:18:46,125
Mexico area. Is that how it's normally

542
01:18:46,125 --> 01:18:47,875
done? So when you guys study, you have to

543
01:18:47,875 --> 01:18:48,416
get in the water with them.

544
01:18:48,458 --> 01:18:50,875
Yeah, pretty much so yeah, we try and

545
01:18:50,875 --> 01:18:52,166
spend as much time in the water as

546
01:18:52,166 --> 01:18:53,833
possible because it's like super fun and

547
01:18:53,833 --> 01:18:55,666
of course really important for work.

548
01:18:55,666 --> 01:18:58,791
The points of the work right?

549
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:02,791
Down off Cancun they are so they're

550
01:19:02,791 --> 01:19:05,458
feeding on tuna spawn at the surface. So

551
01:19:05,458 --> 01:19:08,083
these basically it's almost like mowing a

552
01:19:08,083 --> 01:19:09,208
lawn like that just kind

553
01:19:09,208 --> 01:19:09,416
of like nom nom nom nom nom.

554
01:19:09,458 --> 01:19:12,416
I kind of think of them as ocean

555
01:19:12,416 --> 01:19:14,916
labradors like that very highly food

556
01:19:14,916 --> 01:19:17,041
motivated species. Okay. And when you've

557
01:19:17,041 --> 01:19:19,833
got all this like extremely calorie dense

558
01:19:19,833 --> 01:19:23,750
tuna tuna eggs, they're sitting on the

559
01:19:23,750 --> 01:19:26,416
surface here, they will just be like just

560
01:19:26,416 --> 01:19:27,291
charging through trying

561
01:19:27,291 --> 01:19:27,416
to get as much as they can.

562
01:19:27,458 --> 01:19:30,500
And it's like, there were some back of

563
01:19:30,500 --> 01:19:32,708
the envelope calculations done on how

564
01:19:32,708 --> 01:19:34,208
much they actually eating there. And I

565
01:19:34,208 --> 01:19:37,666
think it's calorie wise, it's about the

566
01:19:37,666 --> 01:19:40,916
equivalent of like eight kilos, whatever

567
01:19:40,916 --> 01:19:43,958
that is in in pounds like 15, 16, 17

568
01:19:43,958 --> 01:19:45,458
pounds, something of of

569
01:19:45,458 --> 01:19:46,416
of chocolate each day.

570
01:19:46,666 --> 01:19:50,000
So for a kind of a cold blooded species

571
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:52,250
like an ectotherm that's a there's a huge

572
01:19:52,250 --> 01:19:54,416
amount of calories. So yeah, it's really

573
01:19:54,416 --> 01:19:57,500
interesting. Like, so our paradigm has

574
01:19:57,500 --> 01:20:00,125
kind of been that like a lot of the work

575
01:20:00,125 --> 01:20:02,000
is like that where we're looking for them

576
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:03,375
when they're feeding on the surface in

577
01:20:03,375 --> 01:20:04,208
these locations where

578
01:20:04,208 --> 01:20:04,416
there's lots of food.

579
01:20:04,458 --> 01:20:07,583
But what we've sort of seen is that the

580
01:20:07,583 --> 01:20:09,708
sharks are traveling thousands of miles

581
01:20:09,708 --> 01:20:13,416
sometimes to go to these places where

582
01:20:13,416 --> 01:20:15,041
they know there is lots of food because

583
01:20:15,041 --> 01:20:17,375
like the kind of tropics, you know, the

584
01:20:17,375 --> 01:20:19,625
reason why the water is so blue and clear

585
01:20:19,625 --> 01:20:21,500
is because there's almost no life in it.

586
01:20:22,166 --> 01:20:25,791
So for a large ancient feeder, they

587
01:20:25,791 --> 01:20:27,333
really have to target these kind of

588
01:20:27,333 --> 01:20:29,750
bursts of food. So yeah, and they'll

589
01:20:29,750 --> 01:20:31,416
they'll really travel to get there.

590
01:20:31,458 --> 01:20:34,416
Yeah, and they know where to go to they

591
01:20:34,416 --> 01:20:36,208
seem to show up the same spot when they

592
01:20:36,208 --> 01:20:37,666
go to one of these locations where the

593
01:20:37,666 --> 01:20:38,333
food is going to be

594
01:20:38,333 --> 01:20:39,958
there. Is that pretty much?

595
01:20:39,958 --> 01:20:41,375
Yeah, I was actually pretty amazed

596
01:20:41,375 --> 01:20:45,000
because we were doing some work in of

597
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:48,916
Honduras and utilla. And I was looking at

598
01:20:48,916 --> 01:20:50,625
the end, we can get into the photo

599
01:20:50,625 --> 01:20:52,666
identification. But like, I was looking

600
01:20:52,666 --> 01:20:54,666
at the individual

601
01:20:54,666 --> 01:20:56,416
sightings of different sharks.

602
01:20:56,458 --> 01:20:59,000
And at the time, there was still a lot of

603
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:01,083
sharks that were turning up and believes

604
01:21:01,083 --> 01:21:03,500
to feed on a specific snapper spawning

605
01:21:03,500 --> 01:21:05,291
aggregation on this reef. And the

606
01:21:05,291 --> 01:21:07,416
snappers would only spawn for I think it

607
01:21:07,416 --> 01:21:09,208
was like two or three nights like around

608
01:21:09,208 --> 01:21:11,416
full moon for about three months a year.

609
01:21:11,458 --> 01:21:14,083
So it's only a real specific time of

610
01:21:14,083 --> 01:21:16,958
year, Pacific moon phase and only that

611
01:21:16,958 --> 01:21:19,541
couple of days. And one of the sharks had

612
01:21:19,541 --> 01:21:23,083
been spotted in off utilla and Honduras.

613
01:21:23,666 --> 01:21:26,208
And then the next night, it was at that

614
01:21:26,208 --> 01:21:28,750
reef feeding on the on the snapper spawn.

615
01:21:29,208 --> 01:21:30,791
And it's just like, well, that thing knew

616
01:21:30,791 --> 01:21:34,083
exactly where it was going. And like,

617
01:21:34,416 --> 01:21:35,666
nailing the timing and

618
01:21:35,666 --> 01:21:36,500
all that kind of thing.

619
01:21:37,458 --> 01:21:38,833
So yeah, even though the hand bows that

620
01:21:38,833 --> 01:21:40,333
very good at what they do.

621
01:21:40,666 --> 01:21:42,000
Yeah, let me ask you this. You know, we

622
01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:43,166
talked a little bit about when you first

623
01:21:43,166 --> 01:21:45,458
started studying the sharks, you're

624
01:21:45,458 --> 01:21:47,416
trying to figure out what to study now,

625
01:21:47,416 --> 01:21:49,458
given your background in like the

626
01:21:49,458 --> 01:21:51,333
physiology aspect and you and when you

627
01:21:51,333 --> 01:21:53,166
get to a new species and Dave, you've

628
01:21:53,166 --> 01:21:54,000
kind of been through this

629
01:21:54,000 --> 01:21:55,000
before a number of times.

630
01:21:55,750 --> 01:21:57,208
What is it that's the most important

631
01:21:57,208 --> 01:21:59,791
thing to study? Is it like with a large

632
01:21:59,791 --> 01:22:01,250
animal, you'd almost think of where they

633
01:22:01,250 --> 01:22:04,458
go, when they're there, and then how it's

634
01:22:04,458 --> 01:22:05,916
affected, how they're affected by humans,

635
01:22:06,125 --> 01:22:08,083
right? To look at the immediate

636
01:22:08,083 --> 01:22:11,750
protection, and then maybe go into how

637
01:22:11,750 --> 01:22:13,541
they eat, how like all their physiology

638
01:22:13,541 --> 01:22:14,375
and things like that.

639
01:22:14,458 --> 01:22:15,625
And that's how I see it. But I'm an

640
01:22:15,625 --> 01:22:17,416
ecologist by background. So that's how I

641
01:22:17,416 --> 01:22:19,875
see it first is distribution, figure out

642
01:22:19,875 --> 01:22:21,958
where they go, how do we protect them? At

643
01:22:21,958 --> 01:22:23,541
what point in time do we protect them?

644
01:22:23,541 --> 01:22:24,791
What governments we have to work with?

645
01:22:25,125 --> 01:22:26,625
But like, you come from a physiology

646
01:22:26,625 --> 01:22:28,541
background. So you're looking at which

647
01:22:28,541 --> 01:22:29,875
way did you decide to go

648
01:22:29,875 --> 01:22:30,833
when you first started?

649
01:22:31,458 --> 01:22:34,000
That is exactly how I approach it. In

650
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:37,375
fact, like I'm not like the kind of

651
01:22:37,375 --> 01:22:40,125
biological and ecological questions are a

652
01:22:40,125 --> 01:22:42,916
bit secondary. And we try and we try and

653
01:22:42,916 --> 01:22:45,333
address those as we go. For sure. But but

654
01:22:45,333 --> 01:22:47,916
like, yeah, it's really that, like, how

655
01:22:47,916 --> 01:22:49,583
many are there? What are they doing

656
01:22:49,583 --> 01:22:51,500
there? Like, is that kind of a feeding

657
01:22:51,500 --> 01:22:53,166
area? Is it which is usually pretty

658
01:22:53,166 --> 01:22:56,041
obvious? Is it a like a reproductive

659
01:22:56,041 --> 01:22:58,250
area, which which might kind of like

660
01:22:58,250 --> 01:23:00,375
increase the priority of conservation?

661
01:23:00,458 --> 01:23:05,416
And then over time, is that population

662
01:23:05,416 --> 01:23:08,041
going up or down? And then things like

663
01:23:08,041 --> 01:23:10,541
the yeah, so it's kind of like how many

664
01:23:10,541 --> 01:23:13,083
sharks using the area over time? Is that

665
01:23:13,083 --> 01:23:15,666
population going up or down? What are the

666
01:23:15,666 --> 01:23:18,541
main threats to there? And we can it's

667
01:23:18,541 --> 01:23:20,916
nice with whale sharks that kind of

668
01:23:20,916 --> 01:23:22,583
couples in with that taking photos of

669
01:23:22,583 --> 01:23:24,500
them to be able to identify individuals

670
01:23:24,500 --> 01:23:26,000
that we can also see

671
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:27,416
things like scars on the body.

672
01:23:27,458 --> 01:23:29,500
So if there's a lot of them are being

673
01:23:29,500 --> 01:23:32,458
affected by, like, for instance, like

674
01:23:32,458 --> 01:23:35,000
fishing gear entanglement or or ship

675
01:23:35,000 --> 01:23:36,958
strikes, even though those are like quite

676
01:23:36,958 --> 01:23:38,541
cryptic threats that are very difficult

677
01:23:38,541 --> 01:23:40,000
to monitor, we will see

678
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:41,625
evidence of it on the sharks.

679
01:23:42,458 --> 01:23:43,708
So that's the kind of thing we can look

680
01:23:43,708 --> 01:23:45,541
for. And then exactly as you say, it's

681
01:23:45,541 --> 01:23:48,875
like, okay, like, does this are they

682
01:23:48,875 --> 01:23:50,708
direct threats to this area? Who do we

683
01:23:50,708 --> 01:23:52,625
need to work with in government? Like,

684
01:23:52,625 --> 01:23:54,416
how do we fund protection?

685
01:23:54,458 --> 01:23:58,333
Which is often or how can we like bring

686
01:23:58,333 --> 01:24:00,000
the community on board with protection?

687
01:24:00,291 --> 01:24:02,666
So we end up working a lot to help

688
01:24:02,666 --> 01:24:04,291
develop kind of like ecotourism

689
01:24:04,291 --> 01:24:06,250
industries and stuff like that and help

690
01:24:06,250 --> 01:24:09,458
like support local livelihoods. And and

691
01:24:09,458 --> 01:24:10,916
then yeah, where are they going? And

692
01:24:10,916 --> 01:24:13,208
like, where to next? Like, where else do

693
01:24:13,208 --> 01:24:14,125
we have to protect to be

694
01:24:14,125 --> 01:24:15,416
able to support this population?

695
01:24:15,458 --> 01:24:18,416
Was there ever much of a of a fishery in

696
01:24:18,416 --> 01:24:20,875
in in I'm more familiar with East Africa

697
01:24:20,875 --> 01:24:23,083
than West Africa, but was there ever did

698
01:24:23,083 --> 01:24:24,833
the local villagers ever

699
01:24:24,833 --> 01:24:26,875
target him much? Or is it just?

700
01:24:27,458 --> 01:24:31,125
No, not much. Not much. It was something

701
01:24:31,125 --> 01:24:34,416
we were there was there's been some

702
01:24:34,416 --> 01:24:37,166
pretty large gill nets and use. So there

703
01:24:37,166 --> 01:24:39,958
was some accidental catch. But there's

704
01:24:39,958 --> 01:24:44,416
like the the they didn't regard the.

705
01:24:44,458 --> 01:24:46,041
They didn't regard the whale sharks

706
01:24:46,041 --> 01:24:49,208
particularly tasty and big and like you

707
01:24:49,208 --> 01:24:51,041
don't want one in there like that. That

708
01:24:51,041 --> 01:24:53,125
just is like a swim off with your name or

709
01:24:53,125 --> 01:24:55,291
kind of like power through it. So there

710
01:24:55,291 --> 01:24:57,291
was there was no targeting.

711
01:24:58,916 --> 01:25:01,375
And the occasional like like yours

712
01:25:01,375 --> 01:25:02,916
through a lot of the distribution like

713
01:25:02,916 --> 01:25:05,166
that pretty susceptible to to gill nets

714
01:25:05,166 --> 01:25:08,416
and things. So yeah, some of them some of

715
01:25:08,416 --> 01:25:09,166
them were getting taken.

716
01:25:09,458 --> 01:25:12,416
But a fairly small number.

717
01:25:12,458 --> 01:25:14,666
There was no targeted fisheries and kind

718
01:25:14,666 --> 01:25:17,250
of the Western Indian Ocean really with

719
01:25:17,250 --> 01:25:18,666
the exception. There was probably a few

720
01:25:18,666 --> 01:25:21,000
getting targeted off Oman, but but not in

721
01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:22,375
the kind of the industrial quantities,

722
01:25:22,666 --> 01:25:23,958
for instance, that you saw in Taiwan.

723
01:25:24,500 --> 01:25:26,666
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, they wouldn't

724
01:25:26,666 --> 01:25:28,458
know people know this out there. I'm sure

725
01:25:28,458 --> 01:25:30,916
you know this. But in Taiwan, whale

726
01:25:30,916 --> 01:25:32,250
sharks are called tofu sharks.

727
01:25:33,458 --> 01:25:37,208
And if you and there is a reason they're

728
01:25:37,208 --> 01:25:39,208
called tofu sharks is because if you ever

729
01:25:39,208 --> 01:25:41,000
see the meat on them, it looks just like

730
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:42,791
tofu and the texture

731
01:25:42,791 --> 01:25:47,208
textures like tofu at all. Yeah.

732
01:25:47,916 --> 01:25:51,416
And and so like I said, I there was a

733
01:25:51,416 --> 01:25:53,666
funny story. I don't know if you were

734
01:25:53,666 --> 01:25:54,500
ever have you been to

735
01:25:54,500 --> 01:25:56,041
Taiwan at all, Simon?

736
01:25:56,583 --> 01:25:59,291
I mean, only for that, like fish

737
01:25:59,291 --> 01:26:01,375
conference back in 2005. I haven't spent

738
01:26:01,375 --> 01:26:03,000
much time there. That's the one I was

739
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:04,791
going to ask you about because if you

740
01:26:04,791 --> 01:26:06,541
remember, they were serving.

741
01:26:07,458 --> 01:26:09,750
They're serving tofu shark at the main

742
01:26:09,750 --> 01:26:11,541
banquet dinner at the end of the thing.

743
01:26:11,541 --> 01:26:13,958
And a lot of and I knew what it was and

744
01:26:13,958 --> 01:26:16,041
you probably knew what it was. But a lot

745
01:26:16,041 --> 01:26:18,333
of people there, the sharky people had no

746
01:26:18,333 --> 01:26:19,416
idea what the tofu shark was.

747
01:26:19,458 --> 01:26:22,083
And there's a few individual conservation

748
01:26:22,083 --> 01:26:24,166
people that I won't mention any names

749
01:26:24,166 --> 01:26:26,708
that started having the tofu soup and

750
01:26:26,708 --> 01:26:28,583
only realized afterward that they're

751
01:26:28,583 --> 01:26:31,416
eating whale shark. And it was rather

752
01:26:31,416 --> 01:26:33,666
horrific experience for them.

753
01:26:33,958 --> 01:26:36,208
Admittedly, I kind of like smiled and

754
01:26:36,208 --> 01:26:38,875
chuckled a little bit. It was kind of

755
01:26:38,875 --> 01:26:43,208
probably being a bit mean, but yeah, when

756
01:26:43,208 --> 01:26:45,416
cultures collide. Yeah, yeah.

757
01:26:45,458 --> 01:26:48,208
Yeah, it was it was actually that was the

758
01:26:48,208 --> 01:26:49,750
year that I started working on whale

759
01:26:49,750 --> 01:26:53,666
sharks. But before before before I had

760
01:26:53,666 --> 01:26:55,458
started working on whale sharks. So yeah,

761
01:26:55,458 --> 01:26:57,958
I was a yeah, pretty,

762
01:26:57,958 --> 01:26:59,041
pretty new to it all back there.

763
01:26:59,333 --> 01:27:00,833
I do remember that. That was there. There

764
01:27:00,833 --> 01:27:03,875
was also some shark fin soup, which was

765
01:27:03,875 --> 01:27:06,791
like a bit of an oops. Yeah. But but it's

766
01:27:06,791 --> 01:27:08,958
like I think I'm sure most people realize

767
01:27:08,958 --> 01:27:10,625
it was what they were trying to do was

768
01:27:10,625 --> 01:27:12,208
kind of appreciate the honored guests.

769
01:27:12,458 --> 01:27:15,291
Right. But it was just like, yeah, kind

770
01:27:15,291 --> 01:27:17,333
of probably should have got the memo

771
01:27:17,333 --> 01:27:18,750
about what the conference was actually

772
01:27:18,750 --> 01:27:21,416
about. Yeah, I don't think yeah, there

773
01:27:21,416 --> 01:27:23,041
was an intentional they were trying to.

774
01:27:23,041 --> 01:27:24,625
Yeah, sure. Trying to press people that

775
01:27:24,625 --> 01:27:26,083
were there. So it wasn't but it was kind

776
01:27:26,083 --> 01:27:28,791
of it was definitely a one of those oops

777
01:27:28,791 --> 01:27:32,583
moments or say, I live there. So I'd had

778
01:27:32,583 --> 01:27:34,916
that before. So it wasn't like a I kind

779
01:27:34,916 --> 01:27:36,916
of have the winning Rome, you know, do is

780
01:27:36,916 --> 01:27:38,958
the Roman to do and just try and I

781
01:27:38,958 --> 01:27:40,416
actually honestly, I

782
01:27:40,416 --> 01:27:41,416
kind of wanted to try it.

783
01:27:41,458 --> 01:27:44,083
I tried it before, but just to see what

784
01:27:44,083 --> 01:27:45,500
it was like, what was the big fuss about

785
01:27:45,500 --> 01:27:48,166
like trying it literally is like tofu. If

786
01:27:48,166 --> 01:27:50,083
you didn't know it was whale shark, you

787
01:27:50,083 --> 01:27:51,375
would just assume you're eating tofu.

788
01:27:51,625 --> 01:27:54,500
Yeah, yeah. I can see that. So anyway, I

789
01:27:54,500 --> 01:27:55,958
just wanted to I forgot you're I forgot

790
01:27:55,958 --> 01:27:58,125
you're at that. Yeah, yeah, that was my

791
01:27:58,125 --> 01:27:59,791
first probably my first international

792
01:27:59,791 --> 01:28:01,000
conference back in the day.

793
01:28:01,458 --> 01:28:03,500
Yeah, that's cool. It was my way one of

794
01:28:03,500 --> 01:28:05,458
my one of my abiding memories from that

795
01:28:05,458 --> 01:28:06,750
conference, though, was like, because,

796
01:28:06,750 --> 01:28:08,583
you know, there was a diverse range of

797
01:28:08,583 --> 01:28:10,458
seafood on offer. And we had kind of like

798
01:28:10,458 --> 01:28:12,833
the mystery meals of the times and one of

799
01:28:12,833 --> 01:28:16,291
them, I got served jellyfish. And like my

800
01:28:16,291 --> 01:28:20,458
my big kind of realization from what that

801
01:28:20,458 --> 01:28:22,875
was like, just because you can eat

802
01:28:22,875 --> 01:28:24,875
something doesn't mean you should because

803
01:28:24,875 --> 01:28:26,416
it really did taste like plastic bag.

804
01:28:26,833 --> 01:28:29,625
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I've had I spent enough

805
01:28:29,625 --> 01:28:32,875
time in China, Taiwan. I yeah, there's a

806
01:28:32,875 --> 01:28:34,125
lot of stuff they serve there that you

807
01:28:34,125 --> 01:28:36,625
just would gag and choke

808
01:28:36,625 --> 01:28:37,416
if you knew what it was.

809
01:28:37,458 --> 01:28:40,750
Yeah, yeah. But the fishing down the food

810
01:28:40,750 --> 01:28:42,958
chain kind of thing. But yeah, it's like

811
01:28:42,958 --> 01:28:44,958
bringing up Taiwan. So yeah, that that

812
01:28:44,958 --> 01:28:46,916
kind of tofu shark fishery. I mean, at

813
01:28:46,916 --> 01:28:48,666
the time, that was one of the most

814
01:28:48,666 --> 01:28:51,291
expensive shark products that was

815
01:28:51,291 --> 01:28:54,000
available in the world. And in the demand

816
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:58,291
for shark from Taiwan was really what led

817
01:28:58,291 --> 01:29:00,208
to the fisheries developing in

818
01:29:00,208 --> 01:29:03,208
Philippines and India as well, which were

819
01:29:03,208 --> 01:29:05,041
two of the other kind of large scale

820
01:29:05,041 --> 01:29:06,125
commercial commercial

821
01:29:06,125 --> 01:29:06,416
fisheries that developed the same.

822
01:29:06,458 --> 01:29:10,958
So, yeah, there was really that that meat

823
01:29:10,958 --> 01:29:16,333
fishery that that really drove a lot of

824
01:29:16,333 --> 01:29:18,500
the commercial trade and whale sharks for

825
01:29:18,500 --> 01:29:21,875
that period. Yeah. And I assume I assume

826
01:29:21,875 --> 01:29:23,791
the well, I mean, I've seen the fins that

827
01:29:23,791 --> 01:29:25,458
market there, but I well, this is getting

828
01:29:25,458 --> 01:29:27,416
this is 20 years ago now, but well, do you ever come across whale shark fins very much in some of your travels? Just out of curiosity and some of the other places you've been?

829
01:29:36,583 --> 01:29:39,125
There's just not really no, there was one

830
01:29:39,125 --> 01:29:41,916
for sale for ages in the Dubai markets

831
01:29:41,916 --> 01:29:43,458
that they they couldn't get rid of in the

832
01:29:43,458 --> 01:29:45,416
end. And big right for soup? Well, they use them as like almost like a display piece. You know, it's like, I might have just been a New Zealand thing. But like back when we had like fishmongers like actual fish shops, they were like, I'm not sure what they were doing. But I think that's a good thing.

833
01:29:45,458 --> 01:29:48,083
For soup? Well, they use them as like

834
01:29:48,083 --> 01:29:51,291
almost like a display piece. You know,

835
01:29:51,291 --> 01:29:53,666
it's like, I might have just been a New

836
01:29:53,666 --> 01:29:55,250
Zealand thing. But like back when we had

837
01:29:55,250 --> 01:29:57,291
like fishmongers like actual fish shops,

838
01:29:57,500 --> 01:30:00,000
it was often like you'd have all the like

839
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:02,416
fillets of different edible species.

840
01:30:02,458 --> 01:30:04,875
And then like one weird thing kind of is

841
01:30:04,875 --> 01:30:07,166
like a one weird fish that they've got

842
01:30:07,166 --> 01:30:08,833
his bycatch. That was kind of like a

843
01:30:08,833 --> 01:30:12,000
conversation piece almost. So I think

844
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:14,083
whale shark fins were kind of used in

845
01:30:14,083 --> 01:30:17,875
that that way. Quite often as a bit of a

846
01:30:17,875 --> 01:30:21,166
conversation piece inside the restaurants

847
01:30:21,166 --> 01:30:23,166
or else is almost like a billboard in the

848
01:30:23,166 --> 01:30:25,125
shop window to say that you can you can

849
01:30:25,125 --> 01:30:28,083
buy shark fin here. Okay. Okay. That's

850
01:30:28,083 --> 01:30:29,416
it. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. I

851
01:30:29,416 --> 01:30:30,125
mean, it's kind of unusual

852
01:30:30,125 --> 01:30:31,458
to see the really big fish.

853
01:30:32,458 --> 01:30:33,375
I mean, I've seen big fins like a whale

854
01:30:33,375 --> 01:30:35,166
shark or basking shark. I've seen them.

855
01:30:35,166 --> 01:30:37,375
But I just it was some of these fin shops

856
01:30:37,375 --> 01:30:40,375
in Asia. But it's I just I had no idea

857
01:30:40,375 --> 01:30:42,416
like how you cook something that that

858
01:30:42,416 --> 01:30:45,000
big. Cook it up and stuff. So that's kind

859
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:46,875
of interesting to know about. So is is

860
01:30:46,875 --> 01:30:49,250
finning a problem with whale sharks? Or

861
01:30:49,250 --> 01:30:51,041
is it more just their meat itself? And

862
01:30:51,041 --> 01:30:51,958
then the fins just kind of

863
01:30:51,958 --> 01:30:53,000
come off when they get the meat.

864
01:30:54,458 --> 01:30:56,333
The fin fishery does go back a really

865
01:30:56,333 --> 01:30:58,916
long way. Like I found a reference from

866
01:30:58,916 --> 01:31:03,083
1907 that was referring to India

867
01:31:03,083 --> 01:31:07,666
exporting whale shark fins to China back

868
01:31:07,666 --> 01:31:10,750
in the 1800s. So it certainly goes back a

869
01:31:10,750 --> 01:31:14,125
long way. But it was not it was not a

870
01:31:14,125 --> 01:31:17,000
significant fishery and that like people

871
01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:17,875
were not targeting

872
01:31:17,875 --> 01:31:20,125
whale sharks or their fins.

873
01:31:20,458 --> 01:31:21,583
And I think that was there was quite a

874
01:31:21,583 --> 01:31:24,083
few places where there was kind of like

875
01:31:24,083 --> 01:31:26,458
small scale fisheries to use the the

876
01:31:26,458 --> 01:31:28,416
liver oil for waterproofing boats and

877
01:31:28,416 --> 01:31:30,708
things before before kind of like

878
01:31:30,708 --> 01:31:32,333
synthetic products and that became

879
01:31:32,333 --> 01:31:35,916
available. So that was and again, I don't

880
01:31:35,916 --> 01:31:36,666
think there would have been much

881
01:31:36,666 --> 01:31:38,208
targeting going on on that. But like

882
01:31:38,208 --> 01:31:40,208
certainly if there was opportunistic

883
01:31:40,208 --> 01:31:42,791
bycatch, then they could fin it. They'd

884
01:31:42,791 --> 01:31:44,416
use the liver oil and things.

885
01:31:44,458 --> 01:31:46,708
I think I think I guess you may know, but

886
01:31:46,708 --> 01:31:49,625
I guess like you go back 100 150 years

887
01:31:49,625 --> 01:31:51,708
ago, they're probably still catching a

888
01:31:51,708 --> 01:31:53,250
lot of stuff in like, you know, off

889
01:31:53,250 --> 01:31:55,000
Taiwan, China and those areas are

890
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:57,458
catching enough sharks in those waters

891
01:31:57,458 --> 01:31:59,416
there that they didn't really have to go

892
01:31:59,416 --> 01:32:02,666
as far as much to get stuff and shipping

893
01:32:02,666 --> 01:32:04,166
and stuff was a lot probably a little

894
01:32:04,166 --> 01:32:05,416
more primitive than it is now.

895
01:32:05,458 --> 01:32:07,666
As far as, you know, back in the 1800s,

896
01:32:07,666 --> 01:32:08,833
trying to get shark fins shipped from

897
01:32:08,833 --> 01:32:13,000
Africa to China. When it go back away and

898
01:32:13,000 --> 01:32:16,291
I know I do know, like Leonard Capaño

899
01:32:16,291 --> 01:32:17,625
grew up in San Francisco

900
01:32:17,625 --> 01:32:18,583
right next to Chinatown.

901
01:32:20,166 --> 01:32:21,833
He told me his little boy in the 40s and

902
01:32:21,833 --> 01:32:25,000
50s. It was pretty common to see all the

903
01:32:25,000 --> 01:32:26,500
all the Chinese markets. They're all had

904
01:32:26,500 --> 01:32:28,791
shark fins hanging in them at the time.

905
01:32:28,791 --> 01:32:30,833
So the fin the whole fin industry goes

906
01:32:30,833 --> 01:32:32,625
back and I don't know if anybody's really

907
01:32:32,625 --> 01:32:35,416
delved into the cultural history of it.

908
01:32:35,458 --> 01:32:37,458
It'd be that'd be kind of fascinating but

909
01:32:37,458 --> 01:32:40,583
it goes it goes back like easily to the

910
01:32:40,583 --> 01:32:43,500
1800s or if not more on the whole from

911
01:32:43,500 --> 01:32:46,750
the finning standpoint but anyway, yeah,

912
01:32:46,750 --> 01:32:48,500
it's kind of just kind of fascinating to

913
01:32:48,500 --> 01:32:50,708
hear someone talk about it.

914
01:32:50,708 --> 01:32:52,250
Give a history of what the whole about

915
01:32:52,250 --> 01:32:54,333
the cultural background cuz I'm sure it

916
01:32:54,333 --> 01:32:57,958
goes back quite a ways as you said, like,

917
01:32:57,958 --> 01:33:00,250
you know, he's easily the 1800s if not

918
01:33:00,250 --> 01:33:04,416
before that. Yeah, on things so anyway, a little more cheery note.

919
01:33:04,458 --> 01:33:07,916
Besides all the blood and guts with the

920
01:33:07,916 --> 01:33:11,000
whale sharks. I got I got now you get you

921
01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:12,625
do get occasionally coming back to your

922
01:33:12,625 --> 01:33:13,958
home country, New Zealand, you do get

923
01:33:13,958 --> 01:33:15,625
whale sharks up in the north northern

924
01:33:15,625 --> 01:33:16,416
part of the North Island occasionally.

925
01:33:16,458 --> 01:33:20,333
Yeah, so there's been so they tend to

926
01:33:20,333 --> 01:33:23,875
like water temperatures above about 21

927
01:33:23,875 --> 01:33:27,291
degrees centigrade Celsius. So it's like

928
01:33:27,291 --> 01:33:29,166
anything within that rat within that

929
01:33:29,166 --> 01:33:31,208
ranges is pretty good for whale sharks.

930
01:33:31,875 --> 01:33:34,833
So we do the the southern most sightings

931
01:33:34,833 --> 01:33:36,416
we've had is kind of like midway down the North Island of New Zealand.

932
01:33:36,458 --> 01:33:39,916
But yeah, there's now that especially

933
01:33:39,916 --> 01:33:43,333
that there's more people like out game

934
01:33:43,333 --> 01:33:45,333
fishing and things that are often the

935
01:33:45,333 --> 01:33:47,875
people that tend to see whale sharks and

936
01:33:47,875 --> 01:33:49,333
of course more people have got like

937
01:33:49,333 --> 01:33:51,166
cameras and another

938
01:33:51,166 --> 01:33:55,000
like phones and stuff.

939
01:33:55,333 --> 01:33:57,083
Sorry, and other cameras to be able to

940
01:33:57,083 --> 01:33:59,375
record their sightings. So yeah, there's

941
01:33:59,375 --> 01:34:02,041
I would I would guess there's probably

942
01:34:02,041 --> 01:34:03,583
about five to 10 sightings

943
01:34:03,583 --> 01:34:04,416
minimum most summers now.

944
01:34:04,541 --> 01:34:09,250
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, they are round would

945
01:34:09,250 --> 01:34:10,625
be fascinating to know where they're

946
01:34:10,625 --> 01:34:13,166
coming from. But probably just the ocean.

947
01:34:13,500 --> 01:34:15,583
Yeah, no, you know, it's here. Here's a

948
01:34:15,583 --> 01:34:16,708
question. You're the perfect guide. Ask

949
01:34:16,708 --> 01:34:18,833
this question to have had this because I

950
01:34:18,833 --> 01:34:20,208
really don't have no anybody here in

951
01:34:20,208 --> 01:34:20,416
California to ask it.

952
01:34:20,458 --> 01:34:25,291
I did a I did a paper my one whale shark

953
01:34:25,291 --> 01:34:27,666
paper back in 2004, which occurrence of

954
01:34:27,666 --> 01:34:30,500
whale sharks off California. And it

955
01:34:30,500 --> 01:34:33,625
turned out like, up prior to this paper,

956
01:34:33,625 --> 01:34:35,041
there'd only been one record of a whale

957
01:34:35,041 --> 01:34:37,291
shark off La Jolla in southern California

958
01:34:37,291 --> 01:34:38,416
near San Diego back in the 1950s.

959
01:34:38,458 --> 01:34:43,416
And I got ahold of some notes from a guy

960
01:34:43,416 --> 01:34:47,000
named Bill Ripley is long deceased now,

961
01:34:47,000 --> 01:34:49,000
but he was a long time fishing game

962
01:34:49,000 --> 01:34:53,250
biologist and he had records of whale

963
01:34:53,250 --> 01:34:56,375
sharks going back to the 1920s.

964
01:34:56,375 --> 01:34:57,750
And he's the only guy I know that

965
01:34:57,750 --> 01:35:00,416
documented whale sharks and basking sharks co mingling and Monterey Bay.

966
01:35:00,458 --> 01:35:06,416
And the interesting thing and anyway, I

967
01:35:06,416 --> 01:35:07,875
did I published this paper and all these

968
01:35:07,875 --> 01:35:09,500
all these notes he had. He was a co

969
01:35:09,500 --> 01:35:12,375
author, of course. But what was

970
01:35:12,375 --> 01:35:14,083
interesting is a couple things. One is

971
01:35:14,083 --> 01:35:15,791
after I published it, suddenly all these

972
01:35:15,791 --> 01:35:17,125
people came out of the woodworks

973
01:35:17,125 --> 01:35:19,916
fishermen and biologists who study whales

974
01:35:19,916 --> 01:35:21,375
and said, oh, we see

975
01:35:21,375 --> 01:35:22,791
whale sharks all the time.

976
01:35:23,208 --> 01:35:26,000
Oh, wow. And I probably picked up another

977
01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:28,416
10 or 12 confirmed observations. Some go up and I'm going to say, well, I'm going to do this.

978
01:35:43,500 --> 01:35:49,250
And, but they, uh, you know, it's really

979
01:35:49,250 --> 01:35:49,958
amazing to watch them at first. So they looked at a

980
01:35:49,958 --> 01:35:52,708
sapira and theirrollment, and I started a lot of skate ball art to support whales become aonse downloadable expression. Er, basically, of those things, they say, Oh yeah, I'm going to be a "GIGING TO whistling your the years they would typically see have

981
01:35:52,708 --> 01:35:54,500
sometimes multiple sightings of these

982
01:35:54,500 --> 01:35:55,958
whale sharks were in

983
01:35:56,041 --> 01:35:59,416
La Nina years which are our cold water

984
01:35:59,416 --> 01:36:00,875
years compared to El Nino

985
01:36:00,875 --> 01:36:02,791
which are the warm water and

986
01:36:02,791 --> 01:36:04,250
there was a and they tended to show up

987
01:36:04,250 --> 01:36:05,250
they tend to show up when

988
01:36:05,250 --> 01:36:08,458
the albacore tuna are offshore.

989
01:36:09,416 --> 01:36:09,625
Okay.

990
01:36:10,083 --> 01:36:11,416
And you probably know this I can't

991
01:36:11,416 --> 01:36:12,458
remember the author's name it was a

992
01:36:12,458 --> 01:36:13,500
Japanese paper from like

993
01:36:13,541 --> 01:36:18,208
1969 1970 of whale sharks off northern

994
01:36:18,208 --> 01:36:19,083
Japan I want to say

995
01:36:19,083 --> 01:36:22,250
Hokkaido and in a connection with

996
01:36:22,250 --> 01:36:24,916
the tuna species over there and I'm not

997
01:36:24,916 --> 01:36:25,958
sure if it's with the camera

998
01:36:25,958 --> 01:36:28,083
the species but can you fill

999
01:36:28,083 --> 01:36:29,625
in some blanks for me there because I'm

1000
01:36:29,625 --> 01:36:32,333
I've been fascinated to find out.

1001
01:36:33,041 --> 01:36:35,708
Yeah that's super interesting. Yeah whale

1002
01:36:35,708 --> 01:36:37,000
sharks are very closely

1003
01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:39,000
associated with tuna I think

1004
01:36:39,041 --> 01:36:44,458
that's the yeah so like around a lot of

1005
01:36:44,458 --> 01:36:45,708
the places where we work

1006
01:36:45,708 --> 01:36:49,166
that are not your kind of

1007
01:36:49,166 --> 01:36:50,500
conventional like we were talking about

1008
01:36:50,500 --> 01:36:52,000
that area of Cancun earlier

1009
01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:53,250
where the whale sharks are

1010
01:36:53,250 --> 01:36:55,500
feeding up on on tuna spawn in that case

1011
01:36:55,500 --> 01:36:58,500
on the surface but a

1012
01:36:58,500 --> 01:36:59,791
lot of the places we work

1013
01:37:00,291 --> 01:37:02,375
that's it's whale sharks coming through

1014
01:37:02,375 --> 01:37:04,375
with schools of tuna and

1015
01:37:04,375 --> 01:37:05,958
are targeting like bait fish

1016
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:09,916
on the surface and I think they're it's

1017
01:37:09,916 --> 01:37:11,708
sometimes it's it's funny sometimes

1018
01:37:11,708 --> 01:37:13,000
because sometimes you'll be in the water

1019
01:37:13,000 --> 01:37:14,250
and you'll see a school of tuna come

1020
01:37:14,250 --> 01:37:16,000
through and then a whale shark following

1021
01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:17,791
a long hard behind it sometimes you'll

1022
01:37:17,791 --> 01:37:19,833
see a whale shark and all the tuna like

1023
01:37:19,833 --> 01:37:21,750
swimming along hard behind it and they

1024
01:37:21,750 --> 01:37:26,125
really seem to to team up and like my

1025
01:37:26,125 --> 01:37:28,083
kind of observations in the water is that

1026
01:37:28,083 --> 01:37:30,750
whale sharks are too slow to successfully

1027
01:37:30,750 --> 01:37:33,375
prey on bait fish a lot of the time but

1028
01:37:33,375 --> 01:37:35,375
there's with the tuna helping

1029
01:37:36,000 --> 01:37:37,958
like they will cut off often the whale

1030
01:37:37,958 --> 01:37:39,416
shark will almost go stationary in the

1031
01:37:39,416 --> 01:37:41,500
water the the bait fish will cluster

1032
01:37:41,500 --> 01:37:43,291
around the whale shark the tuna are able

1033
01:37:43,291 --> 01:37:45,083
to kind of ball them up and start getting

1034
01:37:45,083 --> 01:37:46,666
into them and then the whale shark would

1035
01:37:46,666 --> 01:37:48,333
just bite its time and just open its

1036
01:37:48,333 --> 01:37:51,375
mouth and just vacuum in quite large

1037
01:37:51,375 --> 01:37:54,250
amounts so I think because the the whale

1038
01:37:54,250 --> 01:37:56,375
shark gives kind of a focal point for the

1039
01:37:56,375 --> 01:37:59,458
the the kind of bait ball to to coalesce

1040
01:37:59,458 --> 01:38:03,000
around and the and for the the whale

1041
01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:04,875
shark it means that the the bait fish are

1042
01:38:04,875 --> 01:38:05,958
basically getting herded into

1043
01:38:06,000 --> 01:38:08,000
its mouth so it seems to be a pretty good

1044
01:38:08,000 --> 01:38:09,833
partnership between them so yeah there's

1045
01:38:09,833 --> 01:38:12,500
a lot almost everything we know about

1046
01:38:12,500 --> 01:38:14,375
whale shark distribution in the open

1047
01:38:14,375 --> 01:38:17,000
ocean apart from satellite tags is based

1048
01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:19,250
on observations from the tuna fleet

1049
01:38:19,250 --> 01:38:22,583
because a lot of the time they they use

1050
01:38:22,583 --> 01:38:24,708
it still goes on in some and quite a few

1051
01:38:24,708 --> 01:38:28,500
places but like yeah when I was younger

1052
01:38:28,500 --> 01:38:30,083
there was the big campaigns around

1053
01:38:30,083 --> 01:38:32,875
dolphin friendly tuna because tuna and

1054
01:38:32,875 --> 01:38:35,958
dolphins are often associated so both

1055
01:38:36,000 --> 01:38:38,458
would look for dolphins because they're a

1056
01:38:38,458 --> 01:38:40,291
lot easier to find the tuna and then they

1057
01:38:40,291 --> 01:38:42,500
would sit around them assuming that it

1058
01:38:42,500 --> 01:38:44,666
was going to be dolphin sorry tuna there

1059
01:38:44,666 --> 01:38:48,333
as well and then that got banned but like

1060
01:38:48,333 --> 01:38:50,375
whale sharks same thing so they'd look

1061
01:38:50,375 --> 01:38:52,125
for whale sharks and then they would sit

1062
01:38:52,125 --> 01:38:54,416
around them knowing that there was likely

1063
01:38:54,416 --> 01:38:59,291
to be tuna but even then I think and one

1064
01:38:59,291 --> 01:39:01,125
of the fisheries anyway it was about 73%

1065
01:39:01,458 --> 01:39:03,166
of the time that whale sharks were caught

1066
01:39:03,166 --> 01:39:05,958
in the nets they had not realized it was

1067
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:08,083
there they were sitting actively around

1068
01:39:08,083 --> 01:39:11,541
tuna so yeah there's that very strongly

1069
01:39:11,541 --> 01:39:13,458
associated so it doesn't doesn't actually

1070
01:39:13,458 --> 01:39:16,916
surprise me that that yeah that that was

1071
01:39:16,916 --> 01:39:18,583
they were closely associated the

1072
01:39:18,583 --> 01:39:20,541
sightings the two species like up in up

1073
01:39:20,541 --> 01:39:23,166
in California and we've seen there was it

1074
01:39:23,166 --> 01:39:24,583
was interesting for me in eastern

1075
01:39:24,583 --> 01:39:27,625
Australia we had kind of a vaguely

1076
01:39:27,625 --> 01:39:30,875
similar kind of story in terms of whale

1077
01:39:30,875 --> 01:39:32,541
sharks when past a friend of mine at one

1078
01:39:32,541 --> 01:39:34,125
of the dive sites and my

1079
01:39:34,125 --> 01:39:35,958
housemate at the time was

1080
01:39:36,000 --> 01:39:38,541
a journalist and she was like great and

1081
01:39:38,541 --> 01:39:40,416
it was the first front page article in

1082
01:39:40,416 --> 01:39:43,750
the courier mail and in Australia and I

1083
01:39:43,750 --> 01:39:45,958
got heaps of phone calls after that and

1084
01:39:45,958 --> 01:39:48,041
emails and things from people that had

1085
01:39:48,041 --> 01:39:49,958
seen whale sharks and we're like oh I

1086
01:39:49,958 --> 01:39:51,666
didn't realize that was noteworthy but

1087
01:39:51,666 --> 01:39:53,208
one of the most interesting calls I had

1088
01:39:53,208 --> 01:39:55,958
was from a guy that was working down in

1089
01:39:55,958 --> 01:39:58,208
southern New South Wales in northern

1090
01:39:58,208 --> 01:40:02,416
Victoria and he was a spotter pilot for

1091
01:40:02,416 --> 01:40:04,208
the tuna boats there so

1092
01:40:04,208 --> 01:40:05,875
often when he was flying around

1093
01:40:06,000 --> 01:40:08,666
looking for tuna he would see tuna and

1094
01:40:08,666 --> 01:40:10,958
whale sharks together so it was like yeah

1095
01:40:10,958 --> 01:40:14,041
like it was a kind of you don't see them

1096
01:40:14,041 --> 01:40:16,625
all the time but but that is sometimes

1097
01:40:16,625 --> 01:40:19,958
yeah so very similar story really yeah

1098
01:40:19,958 --> 01:40:21,625
well here with the alvacore tunas like

1099
01:40:21,625 --> 01:40:23,625
they tend to be when that we have the the

1100
01:40:23,625 --> 01:40:25,458
La Nina with the cool water years they

1101
01:40:25,458 --> 01:40:27,541
tend to be closer into shore and I think

1102
01:40:27,541 --> 01:40:29,541
that's why people would see them during

1103
01:40:29,541 --> 01:40:31,375
those times I think they're they may be

1104
01:40:31,375 --> 01:40:33,625
around more but people would see them but

1105
01:40:33,625 --> 01:40:34,291
again before the

1106
01:40:34,291 --> 01:40:35,958
internet and camera phones and

1107
01:40:36,000 --> 01:40:38,333
stuff nobody would ever people would see

1108
01:40:38,333 --> 01:40:40,458
him and again they would I know like no

1109
01:40:40,458 --> 01:40:42,250
fisheries guys would fly like marine

1110
01:40:42,250 --> 01:40:44,000
mammal surveys would see him they just

1111
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:46,333
didn't think it was didn't make think it

1112
01:40:46,333 --> 01:40:49,458
was a big deal seeing these things off

1113
01:40:49,458 --> 01:40:50,666
there and they got they had them up and

1114
01:40:50,666 --> 01:40:53,208
down the coast and so yeah that's that's

1115
01:40:53,208 --> 01:40:55,041
you just that was a for me that was a

1116
01:40:55,041 --> 01:40:58,833
great educational hearing you say that so

1117
01:40:58,833 --> 01:41:00,166
learn something here about the whole tuna

1118
01:41:00,166 --> 01:41:02,208
thing which I didn't know about with

1119
01:41:02,208 --> 01:41:04,458
these with these with the with those

1120
01:41:04,458 --> 01:41:05,500
whale sharks I always

1121
01:41:05,500 --> 01:41:05,958
been wanting to find

1122
01:41:06,000 --> 01:41:08,125
out like why they is there an association

1123
01:41:08,125 --> 01:41:10,125
there with those things and why and do

1124
01:41:10,125 --> 01:41:12,791
they is it typical for them to like in

1125
01:41:12,791 --> 01:41:14,958
Japan in California to come into more

1126
01:41:14,958 --> 01:41:18,916
temperate cooler waters to migrate like

1127
01:41:18,916 --> 01:41:21,250
into higher like when they you say they

1128
01:41:21,250 --> 01:41:22,875
go about halfway down the North Island in

1129
01:41:22,875 --> 01:41:24,625
New Zealand is that fairly cool water

1130
01:41:24,625 --> 01:41:28,500
there I presume yeah it tends to be

1131
01:41:28,500 --> 01:41:29,583
there's been some really interesting

1132
01:41:29,583 --> 01:41:31,625
studies from the Azores that were looking

1133
01:41:31,625 --> 01:41:32,875
at the kind of northward

1134
01:41:32,875 --> 01:41:35,958
progression each year of of like

1135
01:41:36,000 --> 01:41:38,666
about the they call them isotherms like

1136
01:41:38,666 --> 01:41:42,041
that kind of temperature bands and about

1137
01:41:42,041 --> 01:41:45,541
that 21 22 degree water was that is when

1138
01:41:45,541 --> 01:41:47,250
that went past the islands they would

1139
01:41:47,250 --> 01:41:48,750
have a lot of whale shark sightings when

1140
01:41:48,750 --> 01:41:50,125
it didn't go past the islands they would

1141
01:41:50,125 --> 01:41:51,500
not have a lot of whale shark sightings

1142
01:41:51,500 --> 01:41:53,500
and now that we're starting to note

1143
01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:57,500
that there's like warming temperatures

1144
01:41:57,500 --> 01:41:59,916
like moving forwards a little bit each

1145
01:41:59,916 --> 01:42:02,625
year like there was the first mainland

1146
01:42:02,625 --> 01:42:05,250
Europe sighting of a whale shark back in

1147
01:42:05,250 --> 01:42:07,750
the paper was published in 2012 I think

1148
01:42:07,750 --> 01:42:10,583
the sighting was from 2011 maybe and like

1149
01:42:10,583 --> 01:42:15,083
same and like kind of north of Japan like

1150
01:42:15,083 --> 01:42:18,208
sea of a cost or something like that was

1151
01:42:18,208 --> 01:42:21,500
was maybe from 2013 and like especially

1152
01:42:21,500 --> 01:42:23,541
especially like you know Europe I mean

1153
01:42:23,541 --> 01:42:24,083
people have been

1154
01:42:24,083 --> 01:42:25,875
fishing and observing fish

1155
01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:28,750
and life there for thousands of years and

1156
01:42:28,750 --> 01:42:30,083
that's something like a whale sharks

1157
01:42:30,083 --> 01:42:33,416
pretty noteworthy so it does seem to be

1158
01:42:33,416 --> 01:42:35,875
that they are maybe creeping northwards a

1159
01:42:35,875 --> 01:42:38,166
little bit and and potentially creeping

1160
01:42:38,166 --> 01:42:39,791
southwards a little bit here too but we

1161
01:42:39,791 --> 01:42:44,333
haven't really noticed that too too too

1162
01:42:44,333 --> 01:42:47,625
drastically yeah yeah so I got I guess I

1163
01:42:47,625 --> 01:42:49,166
got another question a question I have

1164
01:42:49,166 --> 01:42:51,958
for you is a little bit related but a

1165
01:42:51,958 --> 01:42:54,666
couple of people like I know did you do

1166
01:42:54,666 --> 01:42:55,875
you ever get to know Jack

1167
01:42:56,000 --> 01:42:59,000
Eric at all from New Zealand no no didn't

1168
01:42:59,000 --> 01:43:00,750
have the pleasure yeah he was just people

1169
01:43:00,750 --> 01:43:02,500
out there he's he was a very well known

1170
01:43:02,500 --> 01:43:05,541
shark researcher in the early days Jack

1171
01:43:05,541 --> 01:43:08,125
Eric from New Zealand wrote some just

1172
01:43:08,125 --> 01:43:13,750
classic papers and I did the one of them

1173
01:43:13,750 --> 01:43:16,083
was on the sharks of the order car car

1174
01:43:16,083 --> 01:43:17,708
carina formies that he published back in

1175
01:43:17,708 --> 01:43:21,083
the early eighties and I never met him

1176
01:43:21,083 --> 01:43:22,666
but I corresponded with him when I was a

1177
01:43:22,666 --> 01:43:24,291
young grad student in the eighties and he

1178
01:43:24,291 --> 01:43:25,958
is very nice guy and I just

1179
01:43:26,000 --> 01:43:28,500
I but I I just curious if you ever had a

1180
01:43:28,500 --> 01:43:30,208
chance to know him or interact with him

1181
01:43:30,208 --> 01:43:32,083
at all when you were or if he's any kind

1182
01:43:32,083 --> 01:43:34,208
of had any if you had any interactions

1183
01:43:34,208 --> 01:43:35,583
with him but didn't sound like you had a

1184
01:43:35,583 --> 01:43:37,750
chance to meet him at all later when you

1185
01:43:37,750 --> 01:43:40,500
kind of get started no I unfortunately

1186
01:43:40,500 --> 01:43:42,875
there's this Malcolm Francis was kind of

1187
01:43:42,875 --> 01:43:45,500
the the godfather for me in terms of

1188
01:43:45,500 --> 01:43:47,333
shark research in New Zealand yeah

1189
01:43:47,333 --> 01:43:50,208
because he's been he was kind of very

1190
01:43:50,208 --> 01:43:52,708
well established when when I kind of

1191
01:43:52,708 --> 01:43:53,458
kicked off as a grade

1192
01:43:53,458 --> 01:43:55,791
student and he's just such a

1193
01:43:56,000 --> 01:43:59,166
lovely man like so nice it was always

1194
01:43:59,166 --> 01:44:01,833
really nice with him and that you know if

1195
01:44:01,833 --> 01:44:04,875
you if you had like young students like

1196
01:44:04,875 --> 01:44:06,500
maybe honors students that were going to

1197
01:44:06,500 --> 01:44:07,916
the first conference and they were

1198
01:44:07,916 --> 01:44:09,833
terrified of talking to anyone it was

1199
01:44:09,833 --> 01:44:12,041
always like I knew I could roll them up

1200
01:44:12,041 --> 01:44:15,208
to to Malcolm as like a big name and just

1201
01:44:15,208 --> 01:44:17,416
be like oh hey Malcolm this is this is my

1202
01:44:17,416 --> 01:44:20,208
friend X she's studying this and that

1203
01:44:20,208 --> 01:44:22,208
kind of thing and just like and he would

1204
01:44:22,208 --> 01:44:23,583
be really nice to them and that would

1205
01:44:23,583 --> 01:44:24,541
just like totally break

1206
01:44:24,541 --> 01:44:25,833
the ice for them so yeah

1207
01:44:26,041 --> 01:44:27,916
we've been very lucky in New Zealand I

1208
01:44:27,916 --> 01:44:29,833
think to have some like really great

1209
01:44:29,833 --> 01:44:31,333
researchers that are also just really

1210
01:44:31,333 --> 01:44:33,583
nice people yeah yeah yeah Malcolm is

1211
01:44:33,583 --> 01:44:35,583
terrific guy out yeah I mean for a small

1212
01:44:35,583 --> 01:44:36,666
country you guys have had some

1213
01:44:36,666 --> 01:44:40,041
outstanding shark researchers and I knew

1214
01:44:40,041 --> 01:44:43,041
Malcolm going way back as well and so I

1215
01:44:43,041 --> 01:44:45,375
just but I never I just I just and he's a

1216
01:44:45,375 --> 01:44:47,000
terrific guy we could he's a guy I should

1217
01:44:47,000 --> 01:44:48,833
try to get on the podcast here sometime

1218
01:44:48,833 --> 01:44:50,958
that share about his career he did some

1219
01:44:50,958 --> 01:44:53,833
amazing stuff and he but I just like to

1220
01:44:53,833 --> 01:44:55,958
garrick I never met and he was old

1221
01:44:56,000 --> 01:44:57,500
or when I even when I started I just

1222
01:44:57,500 --> 01:44:59,208
didn't know if anybody haven't talked to

1223
01:44:59,208 --> 01:45:00,625
many people have had any direct

1224
01:45:00,625 --> 01:45:03,291
connections with them I know Larry Kapani

1225
01:45:03,291 --> 01:45:05,291
did a few others but it's curious behind

1226
01:45:05,291 --> 01:45:07,791
me thing there but anyway I know Malcolm

1227
01:45:07,791 --> 01:45:11,041
is super super good guy so yeah with your

1228
01:45:11,041 --> 01:45:13,375
with your stuff now are you like still

1229
01:45:13,375 --> 01:45:16,750
the galavant around the world looking at

1230
01:45:16,750 --> 01:45:19,458
the whale sharks and everything do you

1231
01:45:19,458 --> 01:45:21,375
spend much time like now it's your new

1232
01:45:21,375 --> 01:45:23,125
homeowner in New Zealand you spend much

1233
01:45:23,125 --> 01:45:25,958
time doing any shark stuff

1234
01:45:26,000 --> 01:45:30,333
in New Zealand or this like I have I

1235
01:45:30,333 --> 01:45:32,125
haven't actually had a opportunity to

1236
01:45:32,125 --> 01:45:34,208
spend much time in New Zealand until I've

1237
01:45:34,208 --> 01:45:35,708
kind of been here for this summer and

1238
01:45:35,708 --> 01:45:38,583
it's been amazing I still kind of hold to

1239
01:45:38,583 --> 01:45:40,458
that there's there's no way better to be

1240
01:45:40,458 --> 01:45:43,916
the New Zealand in summer it is now the

1241
01:45:43,916 --> 01:45:46,250
end of summer and there are quite a few

1242
01:45:46,250 --> 01:45:48,208
places where I would consider it better

1243
01:45:48,208 --> 01:45:51,583
to be again that whole water thing so so

1244
01:45:51,583 --> 01:45:53,791
like the travel will resume shortly but

1245
01:45:53,791 --> 01:45:55,958
yeah there's it's I mean there's

1246
01:45:56,000 --> 01:45:58,000
there's actually a ton to do in New

1247
01:45:58,000 --> 01:46:00,708
Zealand and you said Brit's been on the

1248
01:46:00,708 --> 01:46:02,125
the podcast a couple of times and of

1249
01:46:02,125 --> 01:46:03,916
course she's doing amazing work over here

1250
01:46:03,916 --> 01:46:06,625
Clinton Duffin he's been incredibly

1251
01:46:06,625 --> 01:46:09,708
knowledgeable about New Zealand fauna but

1252
01:46:09,708 --> 01:46:11,833
there's there's still tons to do but it's

1253
01:46:11,833 --> 01:46:14,666
just like yeah at the moment like I'm

1254
01:46:14,666 --> 01:46:16,750
being pretty busy with the whale sharks

1255
01:46:16,750 --> 01:46:20,083
and other other MMF work so yeah plenty

1256
01:46:20,083 --> 01:46:21,625
of plenty of good stuff to do for New

1257
01:46:21,625 --> 01:46:23,666
Zealand students let's let's talk about

1258
01:46:23,666 --> 01:46:24,708
that for a little bit

1259
01:46:24,708 --> 01:46:25,708
with the marine like the

1260
01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:28,916
MMF how it's set up right like you know

1261
01:46:28,916 --> 01:46:31,791
you guys it seems like you have a you

1262
01:46:31,791 --> 01:46:34,083
know fairly good sized organization with

1263
01:46:34,083 --> 01:46:36,541
a lot of people working with you and for

1264
01:46:36,541 --> 01:46:39,791
you how is that done like in these days

1265
01:46:39,791 --> 01:46:42,208
where remote work is is often done

1266
01:46:42,208 --> 01:46:44,541
obviously you guys work around the world

1267
01:46:44,541 --> 01:46:48,458
in Mozambique in Indonesia in the US and

1268
01:46:48,458 --> 01:46:52,000
all over the place how difficult is that

1269
01:46:52,000 --> 01:46:54,500
to manage as as a founder

1270
01:46:54,500 --> 01:46:55,833
and as executive director

1271
01:46:56,416 --> 01:46:58,000
in terms of look like you know you got

1272
01:46:58,000 --> 01:46:59,958
time zones to deal with you get equipment

1273
01:46:59,958 --> 01:47:01,916
issues and stuff like that I'm sure in

1274
01:47:01,916 --> 01:47:04,958
the field how difficult is that to manage

1275
01:47:07,000 --> 01:47:10,500
and it's it's a lot better now than it

1276
01:47:10,500 --> 01:47:12,708
ever has been before I think we were

1277
01:47:12,708 --> 01:47:14,708
really lucky in that like covered while

1278
01:47:14,708 --> 01:47:17,458
it kind of like really knocked us on our

1279
01:47:17,458 --> 01:47:19,875
backsides in terms of international work

1280
01:47:19,875 --> 01:47:22,541
really accelerated that transition to

1281
01:47:22,541 --> 01:47:27,125
kind of online work so yeah we use slack

1282
01:47:27,125 --> 01:47:28,791
a lot as our kind of everyday

1283
01:47:28,791 --> 01:47:31,000
communication platform for like text and

1284
01:47:31,000 --> 01:47:32,041
things within the organization

1285
01:47:33,000 --> 01:47:34,458
there's a lot of video calls

1286
01:47:34,458 --> 01:47:37,958
unsurprisingly which is which is actually

1287
01:47:37,958 --> 01:47:40,000
a really nice way to do it is as well I

1288
01:47:40,000 --> 01:47:43,208
think but we're really lucky in that

1289
01:47:43,208 --> 01:47:47,250
we've got very strong regional teams MMF

1290
01:47:47,250 --> 01:47:50,500
so we've got pretty deep programs in

1291
01:47:50,500 --> 01:47:52,958
Mozambique which is where we started and

1292
01:47:52,958 --> 01:47:55,708
our global chief operating officer Sarah

1293
01:47:55,708 --> 01:47:58,000
butchers lives there and

1294
01:47:58,000 --> 01:47:59,958
our country manager and

1295
01:48:00,000 --> 01:48:03,208
manager is Mozambique and so the two of

1296
01:48:03,208 --> 01:48:05,708
them and and like our science team and

1297
01:48:05,708 --> 01:48:07,375
the rest of the leadership team there

1298
01:48:07,375 --> 01:48:10,416
like I kind of I have kind of a weekly

1299
01:48:10,416 --> 01:48:12,041
meeting with Sarah to kind of check in on

1300
01:48:12,041 --> 01:48:14,666
how things are going and that's it's like

1301
01:48:14,666 --> 01:48:17,125
a just a it's more of a chat rather than

1302
01:48:17,125 --> 01:48:20,250
me like managing for sure yeah and the

1303
01:48:20,250 --> 01:48:21,458
same the same thing and

1304
01:48:21,458 --> 01:48:23,500
the other kind of likes

1305
01:48:24,208 --> 01:48:25,083
I have a lot of the

1306
01:48:25,083 --> 01:48:27,083
idea around programs we have in Florida

1307
01:48:27,083 --> 01:48:30,250
that's made by Jessica pay our US country

1308
01:48:30,250 --> 01:48:33,958
manager and in Indonesia with the long

1309
01:48:33,958 --> 01:48:36,625
running mostly manta ray and now see

1310
01:48:36,625 --> 01:48:38,708
turtle project going on over there and

1311
01:48:38,708 --> 01:48:41,541
that's lead by Janice I can start who's

1312
01:48:41,541 --> 01:48:43,125
actually just finished her masters at

1313
01:48:43,125 --> 01:48:44,791
Florida international uni

1314
01:48:47,000 --> 01:48:49,708
and so we have a lot of people working in the US and I'm really lucky for them and I'm really lucky for them to see that

1315
01:48:49,708 --> 01:48:50,291
they're doing a great job.

1316
01:48:50,500 --> 01:48:52,916
So it's nice for me and that I can kind

1317
01:48:52,916 --> 01:48:56,333
of like check in and if stuff comes up

1318
01:48:56,333 --> 01:48:57,791
and people want to chat about it and I

1319
01:48:57,791 --> 01:49:00,750
can chat about it but like this is a

1320
01:49:00,750 --> 01:49:04,208
pretty good if we keep some busy but it's

1321
01:49:04,208 --> 01:49:07,041
really nice being able to it's we can all

1322
01:49:07,041 --> 01:49:08,916
kind of like everyone's working in

1323
01:49:08,916 --> 01:49:10,500
slightly different cultural context and

1324
01:49:10,500 --> 01:49:10,708
things of course and everyone can learn from each
other we've realized that basically the

1325
01:49:10,708 --> 01:49:18,708
approach that you described earlier

1326
01:49:18,708 --> 01:49:21,000
Andrew in terms of like how to approach

1327
01:49:21,000 --> 01:49:25,625
research is pretty much what we do across

1328
01:49:25,625 --> 01:49:28,250
the world because we are interested in

1329
01:49:28,250 --> 01:49:30,416
that like conservation and helping the

1330
01:49:30,416 --> 01:49:33,000
species recover and like do we need a

1331
01:49:33,000 --> 01:49:35,333
protected area do we need to work with

1332
01:49:35,333 --> 01:49:36,708
the fisheries that kind of thing.

1333
01:49:37,041 --> 01:49:40,958
So yeah it's it'll be nice I'll be able

1334
01:49:40,958 --> 01:49:44,500
to spend some time in Indonesia this year

1335
01:49:44,500 --> 01:49:46,833
I was over in Mozambique last year and

1336
01:49:46,833 --> 01:49:48,500
stuff so ideally I'd be

1337
01:49:48,500 --> 01:49:50,500
in each place in each year.

1338
01:49:50,875 --> 01:49:53,458
Yeah, but like with the we as well as

1339
01:49:53,458 --> 01:49:55,958
those kind of like permanent research

1340
01:49:55,958 --> 01:49:57,458
programs and conservation programs.

1341
01:49:57,750 --> 01:50:02,000
We also have some more seasonal research

1342
01:50:02,000 --> 01:50:03,541
programs and I'm pretty heavily involved

1343
01:50:03,541 --> 01:50:07,750
in those. So so it tends to be like we're

1344
01:50:07,750 --> 01:50:12,041
working with kind of locally based teams

1345
01:50:12,041 --> 01:50:14,166
and the idea is really that we can give

1346
01:50:14,166 --> 01:50:19,750
people kind of zero to one like out to be

1347
01:50:19,750 --> 01:50:21,708
a whale shark researcher kind of package.

1348
01:50:21,750 --> 01:50:24,750
Yeah, so we can go and work in in these

1349
01:50:24,750 --> 01:50:29,583
places and and like show how how we do

1350
01:50:29,583 --> 01:50:32,208
things and then like as fast as possible

1351
01:50:32,208 --> 01:50:35,083
we can have locally based teams that are

1352
01:50:35,083 --> 01:50:37,500
able to kind of really take the lead on

1353
01:50:37,500 --> 01:50:38,875
that work and if they

1354
01:50:38,875 --> 01:50:40,500
want advice they've got it.

1355
01:50:40,958 --> 01:50:43,750
But but that's kind of a like no one's

1356
01:50:43,750 --> 01:50:45,250
going to understand the local context as

1357
01:50:45,250 --> 01:50:48,000
well as people that live there and and

1358
01:50:48,000 --> 01:50:50,416
we've got some amazing like in Mozambique

1359
01:50:50,416 --> 01:50:54,083
we've got a research fellow program where

1360
01:50:54,083 --> 01:50:58,125
we get new biology grads and it's a kind

1361
01:50:58,125 --> 01:51:02,000
of a paid big internship for the year

1362
01:51:02,000 --> 01:51:03,458
after they've kind of graduated and

1363
01:51:03,458 --> 01:51:05,875
things and like they learn to dive they

1364
01:51:05,875 --> 01:51:06,708
learn like underwater

1365
01:51:06,708 --> 01:51:08,708
research techniques at the moment.

1366
01:51:08,708 --> 01:51:09,916
And so I think one of our goals is to

1367
01:51:09,916 --> 01:51:12,416
have them write and publish a paper over

1368
01:51:12,416 --> 01:51:15,833
that year and and like just learn as much

1369
01:51:15,833 --> 01:51:17,458
as possible and that's that's been an

1370
01:51:17,458 --> 01:51:20,125
amazing way for us to be able to recruit

1371
01:51:20,125 --> 01:51:22,625
staff when we have that ability, but also

1372
01:51:22,625 --> 01:51:24,250
it's like really creating that generation

1373
01:51:24,250 --> 01:51:25,791
of like very very

1374
01:51:25,791 --> 01:51:28,208
capable marine researchers.

1375
01:51:28,208 --> 01:51:30,708
Yeah, they're kindly disposed to marine

1376
01:51:30,708 --> 01:51:32,208
megafauna, which is always good.

1377
01:51:33,708 --> 01:51:35,333
Yeah, I've noticed on your website. It

1378
01:51:35,333 --> 01:51:38,500
seems like it stands out. You have a

1379
01:51:38,500 --> 01:51:41,500
marine megafauna foundation Canada as a

1380
01:51:41,500 --> 01:51:43,541
Canadian. I'm obviously interested in

1381
01:51:43,541 --> 01:51:45,958
this. How does that work and why is it

1382
01:51:45,958 --> 01:51:47,875
separate out like, you know, it seems

1383
01:51:47,875 --> 01:51:49,458
like you guys work all over the world.

1384
01:51:49,458 --> 01:51:51,750
Why is Canada so special to get like a

1385
01:51:51,750 --> 01:51:53,916
little shout out on your website is and

1386
01:51:53,916 --> 01:51:55,041
like a separate website as

1387
01:51:55,041 --> 01:51:56,041
well. How does that work?

1388
01:51:57,000 --> 01:51:59,083
It's been like we've been really lucky in

1389
01:51:59,083 --> 01:52:00,625
some places to have people that are

1390
01:52:00,625 --> 01:52:03,291
really interested in the kind of mission

1391
01:52:03,291 --> 01:52:08,000
and want to find a way to support. And so

1392
01:52:08,000 --> 01:52:10,166
in some of these places, it's been about

1393
01:52:10,166 --> 01:52:13,708
facilitating local work like friends in

1394
01:52:13,708 --> 01:52:15,125
Mozambique. We do actually have a

1395
01:52:15,125 --> 01:52:18,041
registered Mozambican Association and

1396
01:52:18,041 --> 01:52:21,416
M.M.F. is kind of kind of working in

1397
01:52:21,416 --> 01:52:23,666
partnership with in practice.

1398
01:52:23,750 --> 01:52:26,708
I would say it's all the same thing, but

1399
01:52:26,708 --> 01:52:28,666
like it is officially also locally

1400
01:52:28,666 --> 01:52:33,000
registered and similar in Indonesia and

1401
01:52:33,000 --> 01:52:35,333
in Canada, we were really lucky that

1402
01:52:35,333 --> 01:52:36,458
there were some people that were really

1403
01:52:36,458 --> 01:52:39,500
keen on that were like had been on trips

1404
01:52:39,500 --> 01:52:42,458
with us and in the field and done

1405
01:52:42,458 --> 01:52:44,333
multiple trips to Mozambique working with

1406
01:52:44,333 --> 01:52:46,250
Andrea and things and we're really keen

1407
01:52:46,250 --> 01:52:47,291
to try and find a way

1408
01:52:47,291 --> 01:52:48,708
to support M.M.F. more.

1409
01:52:48,708 --> 01:52:51,541
And it's like having a locally registered

1410
01:52:51,541 --> 01:52:55,666
nonprofit is often a really nice way to

1411
01:52:55,666 --> 01:52:59,166
make that tax tax friendly way to do it

1412
01:52:59,166 --> 01:53:01,833
for donors and things as well. Yeah. And

1413
01:53:01,833 --> 01:53:03,291
we're really lucky in Canada that we've

1414
01:53:03,291 --> 01:53:05,458
had a really strong Canadian contingent

1415
01:53:05,458 --> 01:53:06,708
of researchers as well.

1416
01:53:06,750 --> 01:53:09,083
There was a letter German off that did

1417
01:53:09,083 --> 01:53:12,791
her PhD on on manta rays, but also the

1418
01:53:12,791 --> 01:53:14,916
impacts of plastics on manta rays and

1419
01:53:14,916 --> 01:53:17,416
whale sharks. And she was she's from

1420
01:53:17,416 --> 01:53:18,625
Canada and she was going through

1421
01:53:18,625 --> 01:53:23,250
Dalhousie and then Nakia Kallain that's

1422
01:53:23,250 --> 01:53:24,833
she's just finishing

1423
01:53:24,833 --> 01:53:26,666
her PhD also at Dalhousie.

1424
01:53:27,000 --> 01:53:29,500
So we're yeah. So we've got a good

1425
01:53:29,500 --> 01:53:31,208
connection with the country as well,

1426
01:53:31,208 --> 01:53:32,208
which which always helps.

1427
01:53:32,750 --> 01:53:35,000
Is there any are there any like is there

1428
01:53:35,000 --> 01:53:37,000
any research going on in Canada on a

1429
01:53:37,000 --> 01:53:40,500
marine megafauna? No, not at this stage.

1430
01:53:40,500 --> 01:53:42,250
Yeah, there's the only stuff we've gone

1431
01:53:42,250 --> 01:53:45,625
going on in North America is that we've

1432
01:53:45,625 --> 01:53:47,666
been helping out with some some manta ray

1433
01:53:47,666 --> 01:53:50,000
and whale shark stuff and and Mexico and

1434
01:53:50,000 --> 01:53:52,291
then the kind of Florida manta project,

1435
01:53:52,291 --> 01:53:53,625
which is gradually taking

1436
01:53:53,625 --> 01:53:56,166
over adjoining states as well.

1437
01:53:56,500 --> 01:53:58,000
Gotcha. I'll have to get some polar bears

1438
01:53:58,000 --> 01:53:59,125
studies going or something.

1439
01:54:00,000 --> 01:54:02,875
Yeah, now we'll see now. Well, no, I was

1440
01:54:02,875 --> 01:54:04,833
a V. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah.

1441
01:54:05,500 --> 01:54:06,791
If you're not sure if you're right for

1442
01:54:06,791 --> 01:54:09,875
that cold, it sounds like, uh, you know,

1443
01:54:10,333 --> 01:54:12,208
I'll wait for it now. Well, yeah,

1444
01:54:12,208 --> 01:54:14,208
exactly. Right. It would definitely have

1445
01:54:14,208 --> 01:54:15,375
a new meaning for you.

1446
01:54:15,750 --> 01:54:20,500
Uh, maybe a couple of, so, um, so did you

1447
01:54:20,500 --> 01:54:22,208
spend much time in Mozambique now with

1448
01:54:22,208 --> 01:54:24,458
your, um, or you just use mostly video

1449
01:54:24,458 --> 01:54:27,166
conference, uh, with the, with the team

1450
01:54:27,166 --> 01:54:29,541
in Mozambique or mostly video conference.

1451
01:54:29,708 --> 01:54:31,833
Um, there's definitely hoping to spend

1452
01:54:31,833 --> 01:54:34,250
it, especially now that, um, Andrea is on

1453
01:54:34,250 --> 01:54:36,666
medical leave. Um, then I'm definitely

1454
01:54:36,666 --> 01:54:38,500
hoping to spend more time there in

1455
01:54:38,500 --> 01:54:40,375
person. Um, so yeah,

1456
01:54:40,375 --> 01:54:41,458
just trying to organize it.

1457
01:54:41,750 --> 01:54:44,166
So I don't, as I get older, I don't like

1458
01:54:44,166 --> 01:54:46,500
to jump time zones too many times during

1459
01:54:46,500 --> 01:54:48,541
the year because I tend to, I tend to

1460
01:54:48,541 --> 01:54:49,583
suffer for it for about a week

1461
01:54:49,583 --> 01:54:53,000
afterwards. Um, so I'm trying to tee up.

1462
01:54:53,000 --> 01:54:55,958
We were just starting a, um, a new whale

1463
01:54:55,958 --> 01:54:58,958
shark project in Oman. So in years to

1464
01:54:58,958 --> 01:55:02,916
come, I hope to like, um, be able to link

1465
01:55:02,916 --> 01:55:06,458
that up with and with a Mozambique and

1466
01:55:06,458 --> 01:55:07,708
South Africa visit as well.

1467
01:55:07,708 --> 01:55:10,583
Well, I'll tell you buddy, it's not going

1468
01:55:10,583 --> 01:55:11,875
to get any better for you as you get

1469
01:55:11,875 --> 01:55:16,291
older. So, uh, enjoy it now. I wish I

1470
01:55:16,291 --> 01:55:18,083
was, I wish I was still your age to run

1471
01:55:18,083 --> 01:55:20,500
around doing the, doing the traveling.

1472
01:55:20,833 --> 01:55:21,708
You still travel quite a bit though.

1473
01:55:21,750 --> 01:55:23,791
Cause I at least looking at your social

1474
01:55:23,791 --> 01:55:26,166
media, you're seem like you're diving in

1475
01:55:26,166 --> 01:55:28,666
some exotic, beautiful place all the

1476
01:55:28,666 --> 01:55:32,125
time. Um, how much are you, we've come up

1477
01:55:32,125 --> 01:55:34,916
with a great, um, fundraising strategy

1478
01:55:34,916 --> 01:55:37,916
that like part of our fundraising, um,

1479
01:55:38,833 --> 01:55:42,583
uh, and kind of engagement, um, uh,

1480
01:55:42,583 --> 01:55:44,708
workers is to host a dive

1481
01:55:44,708 --> 01:55:45,708
live the boards and other trips.

1482
01:55:45,750 --> 01:55:48,041
Though the idea is that people can come

1483
01:55:48,041 --> 01:55:51,125
on like go diving in amazing destinations

1484
01:55:51,125 --> 01:55:52,958
and also like learn more about the

1485
01:55:52,958 --> 01:55:55,166
animals, support the research or that

1486
01:55:55,166 --> 01:55:57,708
kind of good stuff. And of course, very

1487
01:55:57,708 --> 01:55:59,750
sadly for me, that doesn't necessarily

1488
01:55:59,750 --> 01:56:01,666
take me going to these places and dive

1489
01:56:01,666 --> 01:56:03,958
along with the guests to try and like

1490
01:56:03,958 --> 01:56:06,458
just maximize the experience of, of

1491
01:56:06,458 --> 01:56:07,916
diving with the whale shark legend.

1492
01:56:09,708 --> 01:56:11,708
That's why I called you the legend.

1493
01:56:12,708 --> 01:56:18,500
That's been a pretty solid life choice.

1494
01:56:18,500 --> 01:56:19,708
You see clip that one to use it.

1495
01:56:19,916 --> 01:56:20,583
Oh, it's been clipped.

1496
01:56:21,250 --> 01:56:21,458
Yeah.

1497
01:56:22,083 --> 01:56:25,000
No, it's like when I, when I, um, when

1498
01:56:25,000 --> 01:56:26,791
it, you know, I was saying how I love

1499
01:56:26,791 --> 01:56:28,875
that smell of anoxic mangroves, like I

1500
01:56:28,875 --> 01:56:31,583
do, but I'm kind of glad now that I get

1501
01:56:31,583 --> 01:56:33,000
to dive in Galapagos instead.

1502
01:56:33,000 --> 01:56:33,750
Yes.

1503
01:56:34,291 --> 01:56:34,750
I'll take it.

1504
01:56:34,750 --> 01:56:34,958
Yes.

1505
01:56:35,375 --> 01:56:35,500
Yeah.

1506
01:56:35,500 --> 01:56:35,583
Yeah.

1507
01:56:35,583 --> 01:56:35,666
Yeah.

1508
01:56:35,666 --> 01:56:35,875
Yeah.

1509
01:56:36,083 --> 01:56:36,291
Yeah.

1510
01:56:36,750 --> 01:56:36,833
Yeah.

1511
01:56:36,833 --> 01:56:36,916
Yeah.

1512
01:56:36,916 --> 01:56:36,958
Yeah.

1513
01:56:36,958 --> 01:56:37,083
Yeah.

1514
01:56:40,708 --> 01:56:42,458
So that's the thing is like just with the

1515
01:56:42,458 --> 01:56:45,333
actual research strategy of the

1516
01:56:45,333 --> 01:56:46,875
organization and the philosophy of the

1517
01:56:46,875 --> 01:56:48,833
organization is that we, although we have

1518
01:56:48,833 --> 01:56:50,500
like deep regional projects because

1519
01:56:50,500 --> 01:56:52,166
they're really important areas for me,

1520
01:56:52,166 --> 01:56:55,375
we're trying to work in the most

1521
01:56:55,375 --> 01:56:58,208
important sites for these species and to

1522
01:56:58,208 --> 01:57:00,000
make sure that those areas and that

1523
01:57:00,000 --> 01:57:01,458
species is effectively protected.

1524
01:57:02,083 --> 01:57:04,041
So as I said, like we'll kind of like try

1525
01:57:04,041 --> 01:57:06,208
and just identify these places and then

1526
01:57:06,208 --> 01:57:07,958
over time, hopefully we work ourselves

1527
01:57:07,958 --> 01:57:09,833
out of the job as quickly as possible by

1528
01:57:09,833 --> 01:57:12,208
like developing capacity of like local

1529
01:57:12,208 --> 01:57:14,125
research teams and conservation teams to

1530
01:57:14,125 --> 01:57:15,083
be able to take over.

1531
01:57:15,625 --> 01:57:17,166
Um, but yeah, we really do want to

1532
01:57:17,166 --> 01:57:19,166
protect these animals wherever they are

1533
01:57:19,166 --> 01:57:20,375
found. So that does

1534
01:57:20,375 --> 01:57:20,708
require a bit of travel to.

1535
01:57:21,708 --> 01:57:24,458
Where would you if you didn't pursue this

1536
01:57:24,458 --> 01:57:26,625
thing, this kind of this opportunity that

1537
01:57:26,625 --> 01:57:28,000
came about because you got to know Andrea

1538
01:57:28,000 --> 01:57:30,166
Marshall who was screwing around messing

1539
01:57:30,166 --> 01:57:31,958
around and those and beak at the time and

1540
01:57:31,958 --> 01:57:33,000
manner is of all things.

1541
01:57:33,666 --> 01:57:34,750
Where do you think your career would have

1542
01:57:34,750 --> 01:57:37,000
gone? Otherwise, just curiosity.

1543
01:57:37,583 --> 01:57:39,041
I reckon it would have been super boring

1544
01:57:39,041 --> 01:57:40,500
compared to what I get to do.

1545
01:57:40,708 --> 01:57:41,541
I agree with that.

1546
01:57:42,000 --> 01:57:42,958
I absolutely agree with that.

1547
01:57:43,250 --> 01:57:46,208
But, uh, there's, um, I, it would be an

1548
01:57:46,208 --> 01:57:49,125
interesting one to like, there's one of

1549
01:57:49,125 --> 01:57:49,708
the things that I actually got quite a bit of.

1550
01:57:50,708 --> 01:57:52,916
And I was like jaded with science, I

1551
01:57:52,916 --> 01:57:55,833
think during my PhD because I was kind of

1552
01:57:55,833 --> 01:57:59,375
slightly pushed into doing more work on

1553
01:57:59,375 --> 01:58:02,083
on dead sharks and rays and making them

1554
01:58:02,083 --> 01:58:06,000
dead myself and that like that I really

1555
01:58:06,000 --> 01:58:07,958
just like that wasn't why I got into it.

1556
01:58:29,208 --> 01:58:29,708
And I realized like that was kind of crushing me a little bit.

1557
01:58:29,708 --> 01:58:32,833
I was kind of just like, I'm really happy

1558
01:58:32,833 --> 01:58:35,125
with the PhD that I came out with and the

1559
01:58:35,125 --> 01:58:36,916
work that I was able to do and really

1560
01:58:36,916 --> 01:58:39,041
feel like as much as possible. I tried to

1561
01:58:39,041 --> 01:58:41,791
like the work I did justify that, but I

1562
01:58:41,791 --> 01:58:42,875
just, it just wasn't

1563
01:58:42,875 --> 01:58:44,125
what I wanted to be doing.

1564
01:58:44,125 --> 01:58:46,333
But I was actually think it was funny

1565
01:58:46,333 --> 01:58:47,833
actually after that conference side in

1566
01:58:47,833 --> 01:58:50,125
Taiwan, I was seriously thinking about

1567
01:58:50,125 --> 01:58:52,250
like, I'll finish the PhD, I'll get it.

1568
01:58:52,541 --> 01:58:54,541
And then I'm going to move to Taiwan and

1569
01:58:54,541 --> 01:58:55,416
I'm going to become a writer.

1570
01:58:56,666 --> 01:58:59,166
What's up then? Yeah, maybe a writer and

1571
01:58:59,166 --> 01:59:01,500
photographer. Um, and then I got the

1572
01:59:01,500 --> 01:59:04,208
opportunity to like really change things

1573
01:59:04,208 --> 01:59:05,625
up and do something completely

1574
01:59:05,625 --> 01:59:08,541
unexpected. And, um, yeah, so that was

1575
01:59:08,541 --> 01:59:11,333
things could have been quite different.

1576
01:59:11,416 --> 01:59:14,041
Yeah. Well, it's a work in

1577
01:59:14,041 --> 01:59:14,708
progress, work in progress.

1578
01:59:14,750 --> 01:59:21,000
So this is a super fast. So like what

1579
01:59:21,000 --> 01:59:23,583
someone per a young person starting out,

1580
01:59:23,791 --> 01:59:26,708
they kind of the young Simon Pierce, like

1581
01:59:26,708 --> 01:59:28,583
before he was the legend start now.

1582
01:59:28,583 --> 01:59:30,583
What if a young person came to you said

1583
01:59:30,583 --> 01:59:32,208
like, wow, I really like what you do.

1584
01:59:32,208 --> 01:59:33,708
Like, how would I go about it? What advice would you have for him?

1585
01:59:34,708 --> 01:59:38,208
It's always a really interesting one.

1586
01:59:38,791 --> 01:59:40,000
There's, I don't know if I've got

1587
01:59:40,000 --> 01:59:41,833
anything particularly clever to say about

1588
01:59:41,833 --> 01:59:45,375
it, but like, I just think there's, well,

1589
01:59:46,416 --> 01:59:48,625
first of all, like it's a small field.

1590
01:59:49,375 --> 01:59:52,291
And to a lesser or greater extent,

1591
01:59:52,291 --> 01:59:54,083
everyone knows each other. Like it's like

1592
01:59:54,083 --> 01:59:55,916
that probably too young for much of the

1593
01:59:55,916 --> 01:59:57,625
audience. But like, what is it? Even,

1594
01:59:57,625 --> 01:59:58,708
even bacon, six degrees of separation.

1595
01:59:58,708 --> 02:00:03,041
Yeah, it's maybe one and a half and shark

1596
02:00:03,041 --> 02:00:05,500
science. So it's like everyone kind of

1597
02:00:05,500 --> 02:00:07,166
knows each other and personal

1598
02:00:07,166 --> 02:00:07,708
recommendations go a long way.

1599
02:00:07,750 --> 02:00:13,500
But I would look at like, locally, to

1600
02:00:13,500 --> 02:00:15,125
wherever people are, if there are

1601
02:00:15,125 --> 02:00:17,291
opportunities to work with, especially

1602
02:00:17,291 --> 02:00:19,833
grad students, because it's like, like,

1603
02:00:20,333 --> 02:00:22,541
like top academics and things, top shark

1604
02:00:22,541 --> 02:00:24,333
researchers, they probably get a lot of

1605
02:00:24,333 --> 02:00:27,666
messages from people wanting to carry

1606
02:00:27,666 --> 02:00:29,708
their bags, you know, like just just

1607
02:00:29,708 --> 02:00:31,083
wanting to wanting to

1608
02:00:31,083 --> 02:00:31,708
get involved with the work.

1609
02:00:31,750 --> 02:00:34,375
Whereas grad students that are like,

1610
02:00:34,375 --> 02:00:36,083
generally, the people doing all the tough

1611
02:00:36,083 --> 02:00:42,083
work, they have, they often have need of

1612
02:00:42,083 --> 02:00:44,500
help with their projects, doing some of

1613
02:00:44,500 --> 02:00:44,708
the really boring stuff.

1614
02:00:44,750 --> 02:00:48,416
And that but that really goes a long way.

1615
02:00:49,583 --> 02:00:52,750
So, yeah, it's like, I would say like,

1616
02:00:52,750 --> 02:00:57,125
this, it's not necessarily about like,

1617
02:00:57,500 --> 02:01:00,541
traveling to some exotic destination and

1618
02:01:00,541 --> 02:01:03,125
like doing a kind of two week kind of

1619
02:01:03,125 --> 02:01:04,708
internship and they're great if you can.

1620
02:01:04,708 --> 02:01:07,500
But if you can't, then it's like you, you

1621
02:01:07,500 --> 02:01:10,666
might get to where you want to go, just

1622
02:01:10,666 --> 02:01:13,291
as fast by working locally and like

1623
02:01:13,291 --> 02:01:15,791
becoming part of a lab and kind of

1624
02:01:15,791 --> 02:01:18,125
developing your, your own interests and

1625
02:01:18,125 --> 02:01:19,750
you might find that's not actually in

1626
02:01:19,750 --> 02:01:20,750
research because a lot of the

1627
02:01:20,750 --> 02:01:21,708
time that's boring and hard.

1628
02:01:21,708 --> 02:01:23,750
And you might find you want to be a dive

1629
02:01:23,750 --> 02:01:25,125
guide or you might want to be a marine

1630
02:01:25,125 --> 02:01:26,666
educator or you might want to be a

1631
02:01:26,666 --> 02:01:29,000
photographer or something, but it's like

1632
02:01:29,000 --> 02:01:30,208
the faster you can kind of figure that

1633
02:01:30,208 --> 02:01:32,958
stuff out and get involved in the work.

1634
02:01:32,958 --> 02:01:34,791
And then, yeah, if you do decide you want

1635
02:01:34,791 --> 02:01:36,500
to go and research, then you've got like,

1636
02:01:36,750 --> 02:01:38,500
you've got experience, you've got

1637
02:01:38,500 --> 02:01:40,666
hopefully some references, you've got

1638
02:01:40,666 --> 02:01:42,291
some people that are probably inclined to

1639
02:01:42,291 --> 02:01:44,500
like reach out to other people they know

1640
02:01:44,500 --> 02:01:46,958
and say, hey, I met this, this great

1641
02:01:46,958 --> 02:01:47,708
person that's been

1642
02:01:47,708 --> 02:01:48,708
helping me for a few months.

1643
02:01:48,750 --> 02:01:52,125
And like, there's, there's our now

1644
02:01:52,125 --> 02:01:55,541
principal scientist, Chris Rona, he

1645
02:01:55,541 --> 02:01:57,666
actually started out as a volunteer for

1646
02:01:57,666 --> 02:01:58,833
one of my friends at

1647
02:01:58,833 --> 02:01:59,958
University of Queensland.

1648
02:02:00,666 --> 02:02:02,083
And I've got it, we were actually having

1649
02:02:02,083 --> 02:02:04,958
a bit of a moan together about how

1650
02:02:04,958 --> 02:02:07,541
unreliable a lot of volunteers were with

1651
02:02:07,541 --> 02:02:09,208
our work of just like, you know, an hour

1652
02:02:09,208 --> 02:02:11,708
before you were supposed to go out for a

1653
02:02:11,708 --> 02:02:13,083
couple of days trip

1654
02:02:13,083 --> 02:02:13,708
or something like that.

1655
02:02:13,708 --> 02:02:15,541
They'd be like, I'm really sorry, I can't

1656
02:02:15,541 --> 02:02:19,583
make it and stuff. And and my friend

1657
02:02:19,583 --> 02:02:22,208
Steve made the conspicuous exception of

1658
02:02:22,208 --> 02:02:24,916
saying like, except that guy, Chris, this

1659
02:02:24,916 --> 02:02:26,625
guy, he was amazing.

1660
02:02:27,208 --> 02:02:29,500
And like always like really hard worker

1661
02:02:29,500 --> 02:02:31,333
really smart and that kind of thing. And

1662
02:02:31,333 --> 02:02:34,000
then about a year later, he actually,

1663
02:02:34,000 --> 02:02:36,833
Chris emailed me and was like, oh, like,

1664
02:02:36,833 --> 02:02:38,250
I'm really interested in

1665
02:02:38,250 --> 02:02:40,708
doing some study on these species.

1666
02:02:40,708 --> 02:02:43,500
And I was like, that's that guy that's

1667
02:02:43,500 --> 02:02:45,250
really smart and works really hard that

1668
02:02:45,250 --> 02:02:47,208
Steve really liked. And I was just going,

1669
02:02:47,541 --> 02:02:49,166
yeah, sure. Like, let's have a chat.

1670
02:02:49,166 --> 02:02:51,125
It's an easy. Yeah, yeah.

1671
02:02:51,125 --> 02:02:53,083
Yeah, it's kind of like, the more you are

1672
02:02:53,083 --> 02:02:54,958
a known quantity to either the person

1673
02:02:54,958 --> 02:02:58,625
that is looking to develop researchers or

1674
02:02:58,625 --> 02:03:00,583
to someone they know, I

1675
02:03:00,583 --> 02:03:01,708
think the easier you'll find it.

1676
02:03:01,750 --> 02:03:03,791
Yeah, I was just saying, I've said this

1677
02:03:03,791 --> 02:03:06,000
on the podcast before, but a lot, a lot

1678
02:03:06,000 --> 02:03:07,916
of times if you do what like you did that

1679
02:03:07,916 --> 02:03:09,125
you do this volunteer work,

1680
02:03:09,125 --> 02:03:10,041
you work in different things.

1681
02:03:10,041 --> 02:03:12,916
You'll never know, but it'll probably be,

1682
02:03:12,916 --> 02:03:14,625
especially depending on who you're

1683
02:03:14,625 --> 02:03:16,541
interning with. It'll be a phone call

1684
02:03:16,541 --> 02:03:18,791
you'll never know about to somebody like

1685
02:03:18,791 --> 02:03:21,375
you or me or somebody to say, this guy,

1686
02:03:21,375 --> 02:03:22,708
Chris is a really good guy. Take him.

1687
02:03:22,750 --> 02:03:25,333
You'd be an idiot. I mean, I had a few

1688
02:03:25,333 --> 02:03:26,791
phone calls with some student for

1689
02:03:26,791 --> 02:03:28,375
students that came to work with me. They

1690
02:03:28,375 --> 02:03:30,416
were like, you'd be basically was like,

1691
02:03:30,416 --> 02:03:31,541
Dave, you're an idiot not to take this

1692
02:03:31,541 --> 02:03:33,833
guy. So I took him. Yeah.

1693
02:03:34,083 --> 02:03:36,291
Yeah. Well, you don't have a choice. It

1694
02:03:36,291 --> 02:03:38,833
gets awkward. Yeah. You know, you know,

1695
02:03:38,833 --> 02:03:41,125
exactly. Yeah. But you know, and it's

1696
02:03:41,125 --> 02:03:42,041
good. I mean, obviously you had to put

1697
02:03:42,041 --> 02:03:45,375
together your own your own package for

1698
02:03:45,375 --> 02:03:46,708
applying to grad school and stuff.

1699
02:03:46,750 --> 02:03:49,541
But that the network and going to the

1700
02:03:49,541 --> 02:03:51,791
conferences are huge. I mean, I can't

1701
02:03:51,791 --> 02:03:54,708
overstate that. Yeah, for sure. And

1702
02:03:54,708 --> 02:03:56,833
people, you know, just getting to know

1703
02:03:56,833 --> 02:04:01,000
people and stuff. So yeah, anyway, Simon,

1704
02:04:01,000 --> 02:04:02,750
this has been like a terrific. I'm really

1705
02:04:02,750 --> 02:04:04,000
glad we finally had you on

1706
02:04:04,000 --> 02:04:05,708
here to talk about whale sharks.

1707
02:04:05,708 --> 02:04:08,291
And I actually learned a lot today too

1708
02:04:08,291 --> 02:04:09,500
about whale sharks that I didn't know

1709
02:04:09,500 --> 02:04:12,250
about. And one of these days I've never

1710
02:04:12,250 --> 02:04:13,666
seen one in the wild, though I have to

1711
02:04:13,666 --> 02:04:16,000
say of all the places every time I go

1712
02:04:16,000 --> 02:04:17,833
someplace where there's whale sharks. Oh

1713
02:04:17,833 --> 02:04:19,166
yeah, you see them for sure. Dave, they

1714
02:04:19,166 --> 02:04:21,125
never show up as planned.

1715
02:04:22,000 --> 02:04:23,833
So one of these days I'll have to hit you

1716
02:04:23,833 --> 02:04:26,125
up and try to go see some. I mean, I want

1717
02:04:26,125 --> 02:04:27,666
any of your likes and you're the legend.

1718
02:04:27,666 --> 02:04:29,625
You'll make sure we see some if we go.

1719
02:04:29,875 --> 02:04:32,083
Come join us. Yeah. I mean, it does sound

1720
02:04:32,083 --> 02:04:33,458
like you're a little bit cursed. So I'm

1721
02:04:33,458 --> 02:04:33,708
not sure about this now.

1722
02:04:33,708 --> 02:04:39,375
I have several times I've been like, damn

1723
02:04:39,375 --> 02:04:40,916
it. I always hear that. Oh, they're

1724
02:04:40,916 --> 02:04:42,416
always here, Dave, except when you showed

1725
02:04:42,416 --> 02:04:46,500
up, they seem to do. Yeah, that was an

1726
02:04:46,500 --> 02:04:48,458
Ecuador with the guys there where they're

1727
02:04:48,458 --> 02:04:50,000
doing diving with the manners and the

1728
02:04:50,000 --> 02:04:51,708
whale sharks. And they, they didn't show up. They showed up a couple days after I left this day.

1729
02:04:51,750 --> 02:04:53,666
They showed up a couple days after I left

1730
02:04:53,666 --> 02:04:55,250
this day. Have these things showed up

1731
02:04:55,250 --> 02:04:57,250
there? All kinds of manner. I've seen

1732
02:04:57,250 --> 02:04:59,250
manner race. I don't really care about

1733
02:04:59,250 --> 02:05:00,583
those as much as I've seen, but the whale

1734
02:05:00,583 --> 02:05:02,125
sharks, I'd love to see. And they, of

1735
02:05:02,125 --> 02:05:03,583
course, like I said, about five or six of

1736
02:05:03,583 --> 02:05:05,166
them showed up like, right? Couple days

1737
02:05:05,166 --> 02:05:08,541
after I left Ecuador. So kind of bummed

1738
02:05:08,541 --> 02:05:10,666
about that. But next time, but yeah,

1739
02:05:11,125 --> 02:05:14,000
coming out. Yeah, next time. Yeah, make a

1740
02:05:14,000 --> 02:05:17,041
plan. Anyway, thanks Simon so much for

1741
02:05:17,041 --> 02:05:19,375
coming on the podcast

1742
02:05:19,375 --> 02:05:20,625
and we'll have all of your

1743
02:05:21,750 --> 02:05:23,416
social media and all your marine

1744
02:05:23,416 --> 02:05:25,958
megafauna connections, uh, contacts up on

1745
02:05:25,958 --> 02:05:28,000
the website here for everybody. But thank

1746
02:05:28,000 --> 02:05:30,500
you so much for coming on the show. No,

1747
02:05:30,500 --> 02:05:31,583
I'm telling you. Thanks guys. It's been

1748
02:05:31,583 --> 02:05:32,958
awesome chatting to you. Thank you,

1749
02:05:32,958 --> 02:05:34,583
Simon, for joining us on today's episode

1750
02:05:34,583 --> 02:05:37,333
of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Dave, what a

1751
02:05:37,333 --> 02:05:39,000
fun episode talking about whale sharks.

1752
02:05:39,208 --> 02:05:41,000
What'd you think? It was awesome. I mean,

1753
02:05:41,000 --> 02:05:42,625
we, we, you know, we had the legend on,

1754
02:05:42,625 --> 02:05:45,708
on the whale shark. That way I know he's

1755
02:05:45,708 --> 02:05:48,333
going to be using that. Um, it was great.

1756
02:05:48,333 --> 02:05:49,875
I mean, I, I said I learned some stuff. I

1757
02:05:49,875 --> 02:05:50,750
had some questions,

1758
02:05:50,750 --> 02:05:51,708
particularly. I was really interested

1759
02:05:51,750 --> 02:05:53,375
to hear him talk about his association

1760
02:05:53,375 --> 02:05:55,833
with the album, with the tunas and the

1761
02:05:55,833 --> 02:05:57,625
whale sharks and some of that, which is

1762
02:05:57,625 --> 02:05:59,500
stuff that, you know, I just, I didn't

1763
02:05:59,500 --> 02:06:01,208
really know. No, I've seen a few

1764
02:06:01,208 --> 02:06:02,625
publications on it, but that was

1765
02:06:02,625 --> 02:06:05,083
fascinating to me. But I think, I think

1766
02:06:05,083 --> 02:06:06,583
more, more importantly, just his whole

1767
02:06:06,583 --> 02:06:08,875
trajectory, how, you know, we were kind

1768
02:06:08,875 --> 02:06:10,125
of asking him like, well, how would, what

1769
02:06:10,125 --> 02:06:11,208
would happen? Where were you planning to

1770
02:06:11,208 --> 02:06:12,833
go with your career before you got into

1771
02:06:12,833 --> 02:06:14,166
whale sharks? And he was like, I

1772
02:06:14,166 --> 02:06:16,333
basically, he was just thinking of going,

1773
02:06:16,750 --> 02:06:18,750
not really having any photography, right?

1774
02:06:18,750 --> 02:06:20,916
And photography, moving to Taiwan. He

1775
02:06:20,916 --> 02:06:21,708
just wrote it and had a

1776
02:06:21,708 --> 02:06:22,833
story. I mean, he didn't have a, didn't

1777
02:06:22,833 --> 02:06:24,500
really have any direction where he was

1778
02:06:24,500 --> 02:06:27,083
going to go with it. And, uh, until he

1779
02:06:27,083 --> 02:06:28,583
got up, he met up with the Andrea

1780
02:06:28,583 --> 02:06:30,291
Marshall. They went off to Mozambique

1781
02:06:30,291 --> 02:06:32,208
and, uh, found a whole lot of whale

1782
02:06:32,208 --> 02:06:34,458
sharks there. So it was, again, another

1783
02:06:34,458 --> 02:06:37,000
fascinating story to hear. Uh, someone

1784
02:06:37,000 --> 02:06:39,250
who, you know, whose career trajectory

1785
02:06:39,250 --> 02:06:41,958
certainly was not straight. I said he

1786
02:06:41,958 --> 02:06:43,916
didn't have, he, it wasn't like he had

1787
02:06:43,916 --> 02:06:46,333
whale sharks in his mind as a young kid

1788
02:06:46,333 --> 02:06:48,250
or anything. No, yeah. Actually the

1789
02:06:48,250 --> 02:06:50,083
opposite. Right. Yeah. He just knew

1790
02:06:50,083 --> 02:06:51,458
sharks, but he didn't know like,

1791
02:06:52,291 --> 02:06:53,666
anything, which ones you do. And he, like

1792
02:06:53,666 --> 02:06:55,500
you said, he was even had more interest

1793
02:06:55,500 --> 02:06:57,000
in like a lot of the rays and kind of the

1794
02:06:57,000 --> 02:06:58,708
lesser known sharks was kind of his real,

1795
02:06:58,708 --> 02:07:01,416
his real interest. And then he got, got

1796
02:07:01,416 --> 02:07:03,166
out and had a chance to go do the whale

1797
02:07:03,166 --> 02:07:05,125
sharks. He's become, he's become quite

1798
02:07:05,125 --> 02:07:08,666
the world, world expert on him too. So it

1799
02:07:08,666 --> 02:07:10,583
was super fascinating to hear. And he's,

1800
02:07:10,583 --> 02:07:12,166
then they, of course they've built the

1801
02:07:12,166 --> 02:07:14,583
whole marine, uh, megafauna foundations,

1802
02:07:14,583 --> 02:07:17,083
just, it's global now and scope. They

1803
02:07:17,083 --> 02:07:19,416
really have built quite a, quite a, quite

1804
02:07:19,416 --> 02:07:21,708
a, quite a, uh, industry or business

1805
02:07:21,750 --> 02:07:24,208
there. And some of his, the things he

1806
02:07:24,208 --> 02:07:25,333
talked about, some of the places are

1807
02:07:25,333 --> 02:07:26,666
gone. Some of the stuffs are being doing

1808
02:07:26,666 --> 02:07:28,708
work. You found it, you discovered they

1809
02:07:28,708 --> 02:07:31,125
have, they had a, had a Canada Canadian

1810
02:07:31,125 --> 02:07:33,000
branch. Didn't even know about that. I

1811
02:07:33,000 --> 02:07:35,041
don't even know about that. I do die to

1812
02:07:35,041 --> 02:07:36,041
the whole idea, man.

1813
02:07:36,083 --> 02:07:40,166
Yeah, but one thing that stood out to me

1814
02:07:40,166 --> 02:07:41,916
during the interview, you know, at the

1815
02:07:41,916 --> 02:07:43,500
end, you know, he mentions, you know,

1816
02:07:43,500 --> 02:07:45,625
when we always ask, you know, what, what

1817
02:07:45,625 --> 02:07:47,125
would you, what advice would you give

1818
02:07:47,125 --> 02:07:49,041
people? And he really focused in on

1819
02:07:49,041 --> 02:07:50,708
knowing people and, and, and building

1820
02:07:50,708 --> 02:07:53,083
those relationships within the, the shark

1821
02:07:53,083 --> 02:07:55,125
world because as you mentioned, and as he

1822
02:07:55,125 --> 02:07:57,000
mentioned, it's, it's, it's very small

1823
02:07:57,000 --> 02:07:58,625
group of people and everybody knows each

1824
02:07:58,625 --> 02:08:00,250
other and they, they work off that

1825
02:08:00,250 --> 02:08:01,083
references really

1826
02:08:01,083 --> 02:08:02,333
matter in this situation.

1827
02:08:02,375 --> 02:08:04,041
and you even talked about how some people

1828
02:08:04,041 --> 02:08:05,541
would refer students to you and be like,

1829
02:08:05,541 --> 02:08:08,750
you need to take this student on,

1830
02:08:08,750 --> 02:08:09,375
even though if you

1831
02:08:09,375 --> 02:08:10,666
weren't sure about the student,

1832
02:08:10,666 --> 02:08:11,375
you hadn't met the student

1833
02:08:11,375 --> 02:08:12,250
before, you're like, yeah, no,

1834
02:08:12,250 --> 02:08:12,750
I'm going to take it

1835
02:08:12,750 --> 02:08:14,333
because I trust this person.

1836
02:08:14,333 --> 02:08:15,500
I think that's a really important thing.

1837
02:08:15,500 --> 02:08:16,666
And it really worked

1838
02:08:16,666 --> 02:08:18,500
off of his career too,

1839
02:08:18,500 --> 02:08:20,291
for his career knowing Andrea

1840
02:08:20,291 --> 02:08:21,875
to be able to say, Hey, yeah,

1841
02:08:21,875 --> 02:08:22,958
I'm going to help you with this.

1842
02:08:24,000 --> 02:08:24,708
We're going to found this,

1843
02:08:24,708 --> 02:08:26,500
this organization that has now become

1844
02:08:26,500 --> 02:08:28,000
global in the hard work that they've put

1845
02:08:28,041 --> 02:08:28,333
together.

1846
02:08:28,458 --> 02:08:29,166
Yeah. Well, they were

1847
02:08:29,166 --> 02:08:30,625
literally like lab mates, you know,

1848
02:08:30,666 --> 02:08:32,166
the university or

1849
02:08:32,166 --> 02:08:33,000
university of Queensland.

1850
02:08:33,291 --> 02:08:34,500
And she knew this place.

1851
02:08:34,500 --> 02:08:35,875
She'd been running around Africa and

1852
02:08:35,875 --> 02:08:37,166
wanted to go do this thing.

1853
02:08:37,166 --> 02:08:38,708
And she convinced him to go over there

1854
02:08:38,708 --> 02:08:41,791
and totally changed the

1855
02:08:41,791 --> 02:08:43,666
trajectory of his plans

1856
02:08:44,000 --> 02:08:45,291
in her and his career.

1857
02:08:45,291 --> 02:08:47,291
And that's I think it's from people.

1858
02:08:47,291 --> 02:08:48,166
Listen to the young people.

1859
02:08:48,166 --> 02:08:49,750
Listen, it happens that way.

1860
02:08:49,750 --> 02:08:51,000
A lot of times, you

1861
02:08:51,000 --> 02:08:52,291
know, it's a small field.

1862
02:08:52,625 --> 02:08:53,875
You sometimes you get an opera.

1863
02:08:53,875 --> 02:08:55,041
It's all about opportunity.

1864
02:08:55,041 --> 02:08:55,416
He had some

1865
02:08:55,416 --> 02:08:57,375
opportunity, took advantage of it.

1866
02:08:57,375 --> 02:08:58,250
You know, didn't really

1867
02:08:58,250 --> 02:08:59,291
know what he was getting into.

1868
02:08:59,875 --> 02:09:01,625
And then he turns out he ends up made it

1869
02:09:01,625 --> 02:09:04,125
made it a life life life life long

1870
02:09:04,125 --> 02:09:05,375
decision career decision.

1871
02:09:05,666 --> 02:09:06,166
Really. Absolutely.

1872
02:09:06,375 --> 02:09:07,208
Yeah. Going there.

1873
02:09:07,208 --> 02:09:09,125
And I think that's that's really cool.

1874
02:09:09,125 --> 02:09:10,250
I mean, it's really cool to hear a story

1875
02:09:10,250 --> 02:09:12,500
like that on how he how he

1876
02:09:12,500 --> 02:09:14,416
got to worry where he is now.

1877
02:09:14,416 --> 02:09:16,041
And say nothing he planned on.

1878
02:09:16,041 --> 02:09:17,250
It was just something he learned.

1879
02:09:17,500 --> 02:09:20,708
And I think, yeah, so I think it's

1880
02:09:20,708 --> 02:09:23,000
interesting how it's not easy to do to

1881
02:09:23,000 --> 02:09:24,708
start an organization like this for both

1882
02:09:24,708 --> 02:09:26,333
for both him and Andrea.

1883
02:09:26,333 --> 02:09:27,791
Like it takes a lot of work.

1884
02:09:27,791 --> 02:09:29,041
There's a lot of struggle that goes in.

1885
02:09:29,083 --> 02:09:30,458
We didn't really get into it a lot.

1886
02:09:30,458 --> 02:09:31,708
I think we'll get into it more next time

1887
02:09:31,708 --> 02:09:33,125
he comes back and talk

1888
02:09:33,125 --> 02:09:34,416
more about whale sharks.

1889
02:09:34,416 --> 02:09:35,750
But it's a really difficult thing to

1890
02:09:35,750 --> 02:09:38,083
start an organization like that for both

1891
02:09:38,083 --> 02:09:39,375
of them to be able to do that, to have

1892
02:09:39,375 --> 02:09:41,083
this team now from, you know, in

1893
02:09:41,083 --> 02:09:44,000
Mozambique and Indonesia and Florida to

1894
02:09:44,000 --> 02:09:45,916
be able to say, hey, look,

1895
02:09:45,916 --> 02:09:47,000
like we've built this thing.

1896
02:09:47,000 --> 02:09:48,958
We've we've discovered more things about

1897
02:09:48,958 --> 02:09:50,583
all the different species that we've been

1898
02:09:50,583 --> 02:09:52,458
just we've been studying and we've been

1899
02:09:52,458 --> 02:09:55,000
able to contribute not only to with your

1900
02:09:55,000 --> 02:09:56,500
from the organization perspectives and

1901
02:09:56,500 --> 02:09:57,458
community levels, but

1902
02:09:57,458 --> 02:09:58,458
we've also been able to.

1903
02:09:58,875 --> 02:10:00,791
Contribute to the science of the species

1904
02:10:00,791 --> 02:10:02,916
and I think that's when you look back at

1905
02:10:02,916 --> 02:10:03,708
that legacy, it's a

1906
02:10:03,708 --> 02:10:04,875
difficult thing to build.

1907
02:10:05,500 --> 02:10:06,916
It's not easy at all.

1908
02:10:06,916 --> 02:10:07,625
You know, funding is

1909
02:10:07,625 --> 02:10:09,041
difficult to find all the time.

1910
02:10:09,041 --> 02:10:10,958
They have these these live aboard trips

1911
02:10:10,958 --> 02:10:12,875
that they do to help with funding and

1912
02:10:12,875 --> 02:10:14,458
paying for a lot of different

1913
02:10:14,458 --> 02:10:15,791
aspects of the organization.

1914
02:10:16,041 --> 02:10:18,041
It's not easy to run an organization like

1915
02:10:18,041 --> 02:10:19,375
this, especially a nonprofit one.

1916
02:10:19,791 --> 02:10:22,041
And so I a lot of kudos to them to say,

1917
02:10:22,041 --> 02:10:22,958
hey, you know what, like

1918
02:10:22,958 --> 02:10:24,500
we're doing a great thing here.

1919
02:10:24,583 --> 02:10:26,791
We're able to contribute to science as

1920
02:10:26,791 --> 02:10:27,500
well as the local

1921
02:10:27,500 --> 02:10:28,750
communities, which I love.

1922
02:10:29,041 --> 02:10:30,125
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I know it was

1923
02:10:30,125 --> 02:10:33,041
really good. I said he he's he's I think,

1924
02:10:33,041 --> 02:10:34,875
yeah, they get involved with which is

1925
02:10:34,875 --> 02:10:35,833
always good to see involved

1926
02:10:35,833 --> 02:10:36,916
with the communities there.

1927
02:10:36,916 --> 02:10:37,916
They get by in there and they're

1928
02:10:37,916 --> 02:10:40,166
basically training the next generation of

1929
02:10:40,166 --> 02:10:43,416
locals there in terms of the conservation

1930
02:10:43,416 --> 02:10:45,375
and the science and these

1931
02:10:45,375 --> 02:10:46,958
in the in the people there.

1932
02:10:46,958 --> 02:10:48,083
And I think that that's obviously a

1933
02:10:48,083 --> 02:10:49,833
terrific thing because, you know, at some

1934
02:10:49,833 --> 02:10:50,750
point when you're doing that, you're

1935
02:10:50,750 --> 02:10:52,416
going to go home at some point being a

1936
02:10:52,416 --> 02:10:54,375
foreigner, you know,

1937
02:10:54,416 --> 02:10:56,500
and so there's, you know, if you leave

1938
02:10:56,500 --> 02:10:58,875
something behind like that, that's that's

1939
02:10:58,875 --> 02:11:00,958
just like magic to be able to do that.

1940
02:11:00,958 --> 02:11:02,500
Right. Leave something like that for for

1941
02:11:02,500 --> 02:11:03,875
the next for the next generation.

1942
02:11:04,333 --> 02:11:06,666
Yeah. That'll be that'll be more

1943
02:11:06,666 --> 02:11:08,875
impactful than than almost any

1944
02:11:08,875 --> 02:11:10,708
publication you'll ever write.

1945
02:11:11,041 --> 02:11:13,541
Agreed. So yeah, I agree. So that was

1946
02:11:13,541 --> 02:11:15,000
really that was really good to hear that.

1947
02:11:15,000 --> 02:11:16,583
Hear all that hear all that stuff. And

1948
02:11:16,583 --> 02:11:19,333
yeah, of course, he gets to dive in all

1949
02:11:19,333 --> 02:11:20,416
these beautiful, exotic

1950
02:11:20,416 --> 02:11:22,083
places with hard life to lead.

1951
02:11:22,250 --> 02:11:24,041
Yeah. Life and that's it in that respect.

1952
02:11:24,250 --> 02:11:27,041
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So one of these

1953
02:11:27,041 --> 02:11:29,083
days, nothing else will have to go. Maybe

1954
02:11:29,083 --> 02:11:30,791
next time we have mom will actually we'll

1955
02:11:30,791 --> 02:11:32,208
go to him. We'll go on a dive trip.

1956
02:11:32,208 --> 02:11:34,291
Yes. We'll go on a dive trip in a nice

1957
02:11:34,291 --> 02:11:35,583
tropical area. I think it'd

1958
02:11:35,583 --> 02:11:36,875
be nice where we will see.

1959
02:11:36,958 --> 02:11:38,250
Apagos, you know, that'd

1960
02:11:38,250 --> 02:11:39,541
be nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1961
02:11:39,583 --> 02:11:41,083
I think we'll just we'll just choose

1962
02:11:41,083 --> 02:11:42,750
because, you know, we have all this money

1963
02:11:42,750 --> 02:11:43,958
podcasting money's

1964
02:11:43,958 --> 02:11:45,291
lucrative, right? Absolutely.

1965
02:11:46,750 --> 02:11:48,458
Please subscribe. Yeah, please

1966
02:11:48,458 --> 02:11:49,500
subscribe. We're begging you.

1967
02:11:49,500 --> 02:11:50,708
We're going to do our show. Yeah. Yeah,

1968
02:11:50,958 --> 02:11:52,833
please. But no, this is great. We'll

1969
02:11:52,833 --> 02:11:55,083
we'll share, you know, Marion Megafauna's

1970
02:11:55,083 --> 02:11:57,000
social media as well as Simon's.

1971
02:11:57,291 --> 02:11:59,333
And you guys can connect with with them

1972
02:11:59,333 --> 02:12:01,250
and follow them and find out more about

1973
02:12:01,250 --> 02:12:03,083
what they do. And Dave, if people want to

1974
02:12:03,083 --> 02:12:04,166
get a hold of you, how would they do?

1975
02:12:04,375 --> 02:12:06,375
So it's a it's Lost Shark Guy, but also

1976
02:12:06,375 --> 02:12:08,500
check out my new YouTube channel, The

1977
02:12:08,500 --> 02:12:10,583
Lost Shark Guy and the and the new series

1978
02:12:10,583 --> 02:12:11,333
I have up there

1979
02:12:11,333 --> 02:12:12,541
searching for Lost Sharks.

1980
02:12:12,875 --> 02:12:14,583
Extinct or live. The first two episodes

1981
02:12:14,583 --> 02:12:16,833
are up. The third one should be up about

1982
02:12:16,833 --> 02:12:18,833
the time this podcast is posted.

1983
02:12:19,708 --> 02:12:22,000
And please subscribe to that channel as

1984
02:12:22,000 --> 02:12:25,291
well as the Beyond Jaws. Absolutely. And

1985
02:12:25,291 --> 02:12:26,833
yeah, thank you so much, Dave.

1986
02:12:26,833 --> 02:12:28,375
And thank you, Simon, for joining us on

1987
02:12:28,375 --> 02:12:29,791
today's episode of the Beyond Jaws

1988
02:12:29,791 --> 02:12:31,875
podcast. We are your

1989
02:12:31,875 --> 02:12:32,875
host, Dave and Andrew.

1990
02:12:32,875 --> 02:12:34,000
We want to thank you so much for joining

1991
02:12:34,000 --> 02:12:35,250
us. Have a great day. We'll talk to you

1992
02:12:35,250 --> 02:12:36,541
next time and happy conservation.