Jaws 50th Anniversary: How a Movie Reshaped Shark Science Forever

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Ladies and gentlemen,

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this is a special episode.

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Why? Because the 50th anniversary of the

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release of Jaws, the movie, the trilogy,

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the thing that really changed shark

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science and how we see sharks in ways

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that we probably did not expect.

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Some people will say, hey, it made great

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white sharks look awful and people were

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scared and yes, that is true, but it also

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funded a lot of research for sharks in

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general and probably got to us where we

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got to a place where

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we are today in terms

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of all those shark research and all the

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stuff we know about sharks.

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And we're going to be talking to a number

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of people, including

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Dave Ebert, of course,

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cohost. We're also going to

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be talking to Lisa Nattanson.

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We're going to be

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talking to Greg Skoemel.

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We're going to talk to Chris Lowe.

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All have worked with great

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white sharks in their career.

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All are part of the Jaws generation that

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we've been talking about on this podcast

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for a long time. So let's start the show

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and let's talk about Jaws.

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Hey everybody, welcome back to an

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extremely exciting episode of the Beyond

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Jaws podcast. I'm your cohost, Andrew

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Lewin here with my

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cohost, Dr. David Ebert.

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And Dave is part of that Jaws generation.

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Dave, welcome back to the show.

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Yo, thanks, man. It's kind of nice to be

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kind of a cohost slash guest on the show.

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Exactly. Right.

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It's definitely it's almost it's almost

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in a way like a high school reunion or

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something with the Jaws generation

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because Chris and Greg

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and Lisa and I all kind

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of came up together in the start in the

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eighties and Lisa and I as those of you

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listening to the show,

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we're heard out where and I were lab

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mates back at Moss Landing Marine

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Laboratories in the early eighties,

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literally started our careers together.

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And and so it was kind of neat to kind of

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come full circle now and be talking about

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talking about Jaws at 50,

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which makes you feel really old.

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But we were but all of us had some kind

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of connection to the

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movie one way or another.

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And we talk about that in the episode,

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which is which is really cool.

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And I think I know I've mentioned a few

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episodes here and there, but actually,

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Lisa and I's first paper was on the age

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and growth of the

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white shark back in 1985.

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And I need to think about.

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Yeah, it's amazing.

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People think about it.

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And it was it was it came out of a

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conference we talk about that was at Cal

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State Fullerton in 1983, which was the

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first international

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global white shark conference.

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And those of you listen to him back in

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2023, they had the the fifth one, I think

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40 years later, which I didn't attain.

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But that Lisa and I were

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the first attended that one.

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That was our first publication.

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And looking at the list of people at the

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time that are there, it's like pretty

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much really where were a the youngest

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that are there or the only ones that are

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still like kind of active and haven't

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retired or died yet.

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So it's like, well, that's good to know.

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Yeah, it's always nice to know. Right.

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Yeah.

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But this is this is it's going to be a

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fun episode because not only do we talk

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about the research and how it's changed

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over the time and how Jaws affected that

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and influenced that.

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But also just like your first perceptions

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of of the movie when you saw it in

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theaters and everybody else and and how

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they felt about it and different

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feelings, including my own,

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which is it's a lot of fun.

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Just a little different generation there.

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And we've been posting up some show, some

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videos of a younger generation and how it

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affects how Jaws affected them, which is

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always interesting to hear.

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So there's a lot of

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different perspectives.

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We talk a lot about some of the tidbits

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of Jaws and the filming that

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probably people didn't know.

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Chris Lowe obviously grew up in the area.

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He's talked about it on this podcast a

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number of times where he actually saw

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like some of his friends and people that

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he knew in and around

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in around town that were

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in the movie, which he said, you know,

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were a bunch of characters in themselves

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in their own rights,

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which is a lot of fun.

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So this is a fun episode talking about

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shark research, talking about shark

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science, the perception of sharks over

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the years and some of the great

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conservation stories and success stories

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that we've seen over those years.

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So without further ado, here are David

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Ebert, Chris Lowe, Grace Gomal, Lisa

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Dutanson and myself talking about Jaws,

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the 50th anniversary.

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Enjoy the interview and

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we'll talk to you after.

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All right, everybody, we have a special

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episode for you all today.

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It is the 50th anniversary of Jaws.

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So Dave and I decide

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actually this was Dave's idea.

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Really, Dave said, hey, you know what?

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We need to get the Jaws

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generation on the podcast.

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We've talked about

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this a number of times.

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Let's get like four people, including

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Dave, who are who who just grew up in

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this, having their career

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in this Jaws generation.

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And we're going to talk about the effect

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that Jaws had on the pod on on their

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careers and as well as shark research.

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We're going to talk about the shark

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research that they've

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done because of that.

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And where do we think sharks are in terms

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of where it was back in the 70s after

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Jaws and now 50 years after

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Jaws is going to be a lot of fun.

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I'm sure there's

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going to be a lot of fun.

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We got some hot takes to go over.

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I'm looking forward to this.

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So before we go further, let's

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just do a quick introduction.

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We'll start with Lisa.

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Why don't you just introduce yourself,

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who you are and what you do?

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I'm Lisa Nattanson and I worked for over

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30 years on shark life history, primarily

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age and growth and reproduction at NOAA's

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National Marine Fisheries Service and

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retired a few years ago.

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And I'm still working, but I'm not

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getting paid anymore.

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So that helps.

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Good to hear.

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Greg, you're next.

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Greg Skomal, I'm a shark biologist for

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the state of Massachusetts.

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And I I've worked with Lisa

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many, many, many years ago.

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Actually still collaborate

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with Lisa and Chris and Dave.

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But yeah, I've been focused on on great

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white sharks off New England recently,

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but I've done a lot of other stuff.

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Wonderful. And you and

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you've been on the podcast.

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Actually, everybody think has been on the

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podcast more than once, including Chris.

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Chris, I want you to just remind people

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who you are and what you do.

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Sure. I'm Chris Lowe.

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I'm a professor of marine biology at Cal

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State Long Beach and I'm

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the director of the shark lab.

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I grew up on Martha's Vineyard and I

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started working with

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Greg right out of college.

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Amazing.

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Way back.

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And I've known Dave.

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He'll do that.

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Yeah.

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Lisa, too.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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And then Dave, I know everybody knows who

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you are because

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you've been on the podcast.

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Why don't you just kind of

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remind people who you are?

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Well, Dave Ebert and I have program

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director for the Pacific Shark Research

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Center and actually

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started out with Lisa.

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We were in the same lab

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together in 1980 something.

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And when we started out and so we've

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known each other a long time and had a

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lot of fun experiences.

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And then, yep, I got to know Greg and

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Chris all kind of from that same 80s era,

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kind of just post jaws.

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And we're still still at it and still

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going at it today looking

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at sharks and everything.

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So awesome. Awesome.

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This is going to be fun.

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The first thing I want to do is kind of

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get an idea of where all of you were at,

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you know, age wise or career wise when

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Jaws, the first Jaws movie came out.

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Right. So Lisa, we'll start with you.

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Where were you in your career when had

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you started your career

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with graduate students?

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Where were you in that

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that time when Jaws came out?

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It was what 1975?

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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I'm not quite old enough to have started

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my career at that point.

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Okay.

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Sorry.

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I had decided probably 10 years before

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that that I was going to work on sharks.

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I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area.

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There was a lot of

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white shark attack stuff.

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I was a very gory child, so I kind of got

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into the whole attack scenario.

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So when Jaws came out, I was thrilled.

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And I went and saw it five times, which I

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don't usually see movies second time, no

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less five and just loved it.

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And it just kind of I don't know that it

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spurned my career, but it was kind of

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nice to see Matt Hooper out doing what I

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had wanted to do forever.

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So I was Greg, my Greg,

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how about yourself career?

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Well, being a lot younger than Lisa, I

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was a young teenager and I heard about

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this movie about sharks.

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And like most kids, I

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was fascinated by sharks.

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And then I saw the film at a theater in

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Connecticut where I was growing up and I

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was completely fascinated by the film.

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I loved it. I thought it

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was incredible, kind of scary.

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You know, although the feature for me,

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like Lisa and probably Chris

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and Dave was seeing Matt Hooper.

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01:08:39,333 --> 01:08:40,666
And I decided at that time,

277
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:42,625
he's got a hell of a cool job.

278
01:08:42,666 --> 01:08:47,291
And that became my goal, you know, back

279
01:08:47,291 --> 01:08:50,333
in 1975, to say, you know, see if I can

280
01:08:50,333 --> 01:08:51,458
become a shark biologist.

281
01:08:52,458 --> 01:08:54,541
So it like that movie was like, no, this

282
01:08:54,541 --> 01:08:55,500
is what I want to do.

283
01:08:55,500 --> 01:08:56,666
Like once I found this because you were

284
01:08:56,666 --> 01:08:58,833
always interested in the sea, right?

285
01:08:58,833 --> 01:09:00,125
From I remember the first interview you

286
01:09:00,125 --> 01:09:01,541
talked about having marine aquariums and

287
01:09:01,541 --> 01:09:02,333
all that kind of stuff.

288
01:09:02,833 --> 01:09:03,833
Were you already at that point?

289
01:09:04,708 --> 01:09:06,541
Yeah, as I talk about in my book, Chasing

290
01:09:06,541 --> 01:09:08,041
Shadows, available on

291
01:09:08,041 --> 01:09:09,583
Amazon, all major book outlets.

292
01:09:10,333 --> 01:09:10,833
Nice plug.

293
01:09:11,125 --> 01:09:11,375
Nice.

294
01:09:12,375 --> 01:09:14,541
Yeah, yeah, I kept fishing aquariums. I

295
01:09:14,541 --> 01:09:15,791
was fascinated by the ocean.

296
01:09:16,333 --> 01:09:18,291
And so, you know, and I love sharks, but

297
01:09:18,291 --> 01:09:20,500
Matt Hooper told me that,

298
01:09:20,958 --> 01:09:22,500
boy, there's a job like this.

299
01:09:24,625 --> 01:09:27,833
And Chris, how about yourself?

300
01:09:28,958 --> 01:09:30,666
Well, you have a little bit more special

301
01:09:30,666 --> 01:09:32,500
and more intimate journey.

302
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:33,416
A little bit.

303
01:09:33,958 --> 01:09:35,750
I because I grew up on the island, I was

304
01:09:35,750 --> 01:09:36,666
there when they filmed it.

305
01:09:37,208 --> 01:09:38,875
And a lot of the kids that I went to

306
01:09:38,875 --> 01:09:39,791
school with were in it.

307
01:09:40,583 --> 01:09:43,750
So I definitely did not have the looks to

308
01:09:43,750 --> 01:09:45,000
get a movie and we're close.

309
01:09:45,208 --> 01:09:46,125
I couldn't be an extra.

310
01:09:47,458 --> 01:09:49,416
But I remember filming and I was

311
01:09:49,416 --> 01:09:50,708
interested in sharks before.

312
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:54,041
And I was probably 11 when it came out.

313
01:09:54,041 --> 01:09:56,041
And I remember going to the island

314
01:09:56,041 --> 01:09:57,666
theater in Vineyard Haven and

315
01:09:57,666 --> 01:09:59,291
seeing it had just been out.

316
01:10:00,166 --> 01:10:01,708
And it was it was amazing.

317
01:10:02,083 --> 01:10:02,750
I kind of laughed.

318
01:10:03,125 --> 01:10:05,375
I thought this part were kind of funny.

319
01:10:06,375 --> 01:10:08,250
But but that was because

320
01:10:08,250 --> 01:10:09,750
we watched it being made.

321
01:10:10,333 --> 01:10:11,833
So I'm a mechanical shark.

322
01:10:11,833 --> 01:10:13,166
You saw all those things and you thought,

323
01:10:13,166 --> 01:10:14,250
well, this is kind of fake, right?

324
01:10:14,666 --> 01:10:14,875
Yeah.

325
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:16,791
But I can imagine somebody who didn't see

326
01:10:16,791 --> 01:10:17,875
that would go, oh, my

327
01:10:17,875 --> 01:10:18,583
God, this is horrible.

328
01:10:19,333 --> 01:10:21,833
So I think as a kid growing up there and

329
01:10:21,833 --> 01:10:24,541
seeing all that was, you know, kind of

330
01:10:24,541 --> 01:10:26,583
made it not real for me.

331
01:10:27,458 --> 01:10:28,208
And of course, it

332
01:10:28,208 --> 01:10:30,208
happened in a fictitious place.

333
01:10:30,208 --> 01:10:30,666
Of course.

334
01:10:30,791 --> 01:10:31,916
So so that made it easier.

335
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:35,000
But the cool thing for me is watching

336
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,208
Jaws is like watching home movies because

337
01:10:38,208 --> 01:10:40,666
there were so many locals in that thing

338
01:10:40,666 --> 01:10:42,125
that I grew up with.

339
01:10:42,500 --> 01:10:44,125
You know, my baseball coach was in there.

340
01:10:44,125 --> 01:10:45,416
My uncle was in there.

341
01:10:46,125 --> 01:10:47,333
So for me, it's literally

342
01:10:47,333 --> 01:10:49,000
like watching a home film.

343
01:10:49,500 --> 01:10:50,250
You know, they show the

344
01:10:50,250 --> 01:10:51,625
fairy Greg Greg can relate.

345
01:10:51,958 --> 01:10:53,250
He lived on the island for many years.

346
01:10:53,250 --> 01:10:54,750
He knew many of those characters and

347
01:10:54,750 --> 01:10:56,333
they're truly characters like you would

348
01:10:56,333 --> 01:10:58,666
have to be hard pressed to find actors.

349
01:10:59,333 --> 01:10:59,583
Right.

350
01:10:59,750 --> 01:11:01,583
That are better actors for those parts

351
01:11:01,583 --> 01:11:02,750
than the people they

352
01:11:02,750 --> 01:11:04,083
found that live in the island.

353
01:11:04,958 --> 01:11:07,833
So, you know, for me, it was it was it

354
01:11:07,833 --> 01:11:08,541
was kind of surreal.

355
01:11:09,166 --> 01:11:09,375
Yeah.

356
01:11:09,875 --> 01:11:11,875
But the other cool thing was, you know,

357
01:11:12,208 --> 01:11:13,500
my friends, nobody was

358
01:11:13,500 --> 01:11:14,500
in the water that summer.

359
01:11:14,916 --> 01:11:15,416
We would get

360
01:11:15,416 --> 01:11:17,041
unfettered access to the beach.

361
01:11:17,458 --> 01:11:18,208
You'd be on the beach.

362
01:11:18,583 --> 01:11:19,375
I would get in the water.

363
01:11:19,875 --> 01:11:20,750
We're like, this is awesome.

364
01:11:23,291 --> 01:11:23,916
Opportunity knocks.

365
01:11:25,083 --> 01:11:25,291
Yeah.

366
01:11:25,500 --> 01:11:25,708
Good.

367
01:11:26,083 --> 01:11:26,291
Yeah.

368
01:11:26,375 --> 01:11:26,458
Yeah.

369
01:11:26,458 --> 01:11:27,166
Dave, what about yourself?

370
01:11:27,916 --> 01:11:29,875
You know, the first time I saw it was at

371
01:11:29,875 --> 01:11:31,791
the Steinbeck theater in Cannery Row,

372
01:11:32,541 --> 01:11:35,208
like right when it came out and kind of

373
01:11:35,208 --> 01:11:36,916
like Lisa, it was the first time I'd ever

374
01:11:36,916 --> 01:11:38,958
like went back to see a movie again.

375
01:11:39,500 --> 01:11:42,291
I thought it was so cool, but I was I was

376
01:11:42,291 --> 01:11:43,458
already kind of hooked on sharks.

377
01:11:43,666 --> 01:11:44,500
I'd been hooked on sharks

378
01:11:44,500 --> 01:11:46,500
since I was five years old.

379
01:11:46,500 --> 01:11:48,500
And I was probably about 15 or 16 when I

380
01:11:48,500 --> 01:11:49,875
saw the movie the first time.

381
01:11:50,375 --> 01:11:51,833
And I grew up in the Monterey area.

382
01:11:51,833 --> 01:11:54,291
And so I was pretty into spearfishing.

383
01:11:54,291 --> 01:11:55,916
I was doing free diving and

384
01:11:55,916 --> 01:11:57,125
they'd have shark attacks.

385
01:11:57,416 --> 01:11:58,083
Around there.

386
01:11:58,791 --> 01:11:59,708
And it was like before

387
01:11:59,708 --> 01:12:01,375
Jaws is like a one day story.

388
01:12:01,375 --> 01:12:02,250
Oh, a surfer got bit

389
01:12:02,250 --> 01:12:04,583
today or a free diver got it.

390
01:12:04,583 --> 01:12:06,125
It'd just be that would be it'd be over.

391
01:12:07,083 --> 01:12:10,000
And but you just it was just when I saw

392
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:11,083
it, I thought it was really cool, but it

393
01:12:11,083 --> 01:12:12,500
was just kind of a monster movie to me.

394
01:12:13,041 --> 01:12:14,708
I just thought like it was just I just

395
01:12:14,708 --> 01:12:15,541
because I was in the walk.

396
01:12:15,875 --> 01:12:17,333
And I found I kind of realized years

397
01:12:17,333 --> 01:12:19,416
later that if you kind of grew up on the

398
01:12:19,416 --> 01:12:21,583
water around the water and you weren't,

399
01:12:21,583 --> 01:12:23,416
you know, sharks weren't as sort of scary

400
01:12:23,416 --> 01:12:24,375
as they were in Jaws.

401
01:12:24,375 --> 01:12:24,958
You just knew they were

402
01:12:24,958 --> 01:12:26,000
just part of the environment.

403
01:12:26,166 --> 01:12:27,750
If you went hiking in the woods, you

404
01:12:27,750 --> 01:12:29,208
might see a bear or something.

405
01:12:29,208 --> 01:12:29,833
That's kind of how.

406
01:12:30,458 --> 01:12:32,291
So I didn't really it didn't have the

407
01:12:32,291 --> 01:12:34,666
impact that that you

408
01:12:34,666 --> 01:12:35,833
see you read at the time.

409
01:12:35,833 --> 01:12:38,166
But I will say after Jaws came out when

410
01:12:38,166 --> 01:12:39,416
there would be a shark and we had we have

411
01:12:39,416 --> 01:12:40,500
a shark attacks every now

412
01:12:40,500 --> 01:12:42,041
and then the area after Jaws.

413
01:12:42,250 --> 01:12:43,666
Every shark attack was a huge event.

414
01:12:44,375 --> 01:12:46,083
It was like it would be a huge and you

415
01:12:46,083 --> 01:12:48,250
and you guys would come down from the Bay

416
01:12:48,250 --> 01:12:50,500
Area or over from out of the area and

417
01:12:50,500 --> 01:12:51,666
they'd go out in a boat.

418
01:12:51,916 --> 01:12:53,458
It was that's where it got a little like

419
01:12:53,458 --> 01:12:54,125
Jaws, where there were

420
01:12:54,125 --> 01:12:55,416
people out there trying to catch.

421
01:12:56,208 --> 01:12:58,291
A white shark that had maybe bit a surfer

422
01:12:58,291 --> 01:13:00,000
down, say the Big Sur coastline and

423
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:02,708
they're out off, you know, off Monterey,

424
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:04,666
you know, off the off the off the Canary

425
01:13:04,666 --> 01:13:06,291
Road looking for a shark that where there

426
01:13:06,291 --> 01:13:08,458
was an attack, say 30 miles away, but

427
01:13:08,458 --> 01:13:09,916
they're off Monterey, because that's

428
01:13:09,916 --> 01:13:12,666
where all the TV TV stations that go out

429
01:13:12,666 --> 01:13:13,458
and film these nuts.

430
01:13:14,375 --> 01:13:15,250
Trying to catch a shark.

431
01:13:15,250 --> 01:13:16,333
And it was just that was

432
01:13:16,333 --> 01:13:17,583
probably the funniest part.

433
01:13:17,583 --> 01:13:19,416
I remember after the movie did come out,

434
01:13:19,416 --> 01:13:21,125
it was people there were people that do

435
01:13:21,125 --> 01:13:22,500
that, but they were never the locals.

436
01:13:22,541 --> 01:13:23,875
It was always somebody from out of the

437
01:13:23,875 --> 01:13:25,833
area would come down to the area to

438
01:13:25,833 --> 01:13:27,041
actually to actually do that.

439
01:13:27,083 --> 01:13:29,291
So, yeah, so it was.

440
01:13:29,750 --> 01:13:31,125
But it was it was definitely had it

441
01:13:31,125 --> 01:13:32,625
definitely had an impact in the area.

442
01:13:33,291 --> 01:13:34,875
And you did see things like, you know, I

443
01:13:34,875 --> 01:13:36,250
think in the movie you had there's

444
01:13:36,250 --> 01:13:37,583
they're had like these little video games

445
01:13:37,583 --> 01:13:38,833
where the guys are shooting the sharks

446
01:13:38,833 --> 01:13:41,208
and stuff that you saw those things pop

447
01:13:41,208 --> 01:13:43,291
up around like cannery row and stuff.

448
01:13:43,958 --> 01:13:45,791
And I just but, you know, but it was all

449
01:13:45,791 --> 01:13:47,000
it was all tourist driven.

450
01:13:47,333 --> 01:13:48,833
They could, you know, they, you know,

451
01:13:49,416 --> 01:13:50,375
tourists would come down there.

452
01:13:50,375 --> 01:13:51,166
They'd have they put these

453
01:13:51,166 --> 01:13:52,125
little game things up there.

454
01:13:52,125 --> 01:13:54,375
And of course, it's all like, yeah, of

455
01:13:54,375 --> 01:13:55,541
course, none of the tourists come down.

456
01:13:55,541 --> 01:13:56,041
We're going in the

457
01:13:56,041 --> 01:13:57,083
ocean at all that summer.

458
01:13:57,416 --> 01:13:58,791
So that was good for me.

459
01:13:58,791 --> 01:14:00,416
So just what might be my friends were

460
01:14:00,416 --> 01:14:01,875
just going out, just going diving like we

461
01:14:01,875 --> 01:14:03,791
normally would and shooting a few fish

462
01:14:03,791 --> 01:14:08,416
and oh, well, you know, I

463
01:14:08,416 --> 01:14:10,125
don't know how you guys were.

464
01:14:10,125 --> 01:14:12,208
But before Jaws, like you really didn't

465
01:14:12,208 --> 01:14:15,083
have in this obviously way before any of

466
01:14:15,083 --> 01:14:15,833
us were studying sharks,

467
01:14:15,833 --> 01:14:16,791
you had a very different.

468
01:14:17,375 --> 01:14:18,958
Would your impression of sharks sort of

469
01:14:18,958 --> 01:14:19,791
different than it is now?

470
01:14:19,833 --> 01:14:21,291
Well, if I see a white shark, I'll just

471
01:14:21,291 --> 01:14:23,916
do this or do that versus prior to

472
01:14:23,916 --> 01:14:25,958
actually having seen one with

473
01:14:25,958 --> 01:14:27,000
what they could actually do.

474
01:14:28,583 --> 01:14:32,125
So, yeah, well, I'll tell you, I I saw

475
01:14:32,125 --> 01:14:34,500
Jaws probably late 80s like

476
01:14:34,500 --> 01:14:35,666
my first time seeing Jaws.

477
01:14:35,666 --> 01:14:37,666
I was nine years old. I was in Florida.

478
01:14:37,666 --> 01:14:38,750
We were in a hotel room.

479
01:14:39,125 --> 01:14:40,166
I watched it with my dad.

480
01:14:40,791 --> 01:14:42,041
And I'll tell you, I didn't even want to

481
01:14:42,041 --> 01:14:43,541
go into a pool after that.

482
01:14:43,875 --> 01:14:46,958
I was I bought into the full thing.

483
01:14:46,958 --> 01:14:48,000
I didn't see it get made.

484
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:49,166
I didn't see it. Yeah, the

485
01:14:49,166 --> 01:14:50,000
special effects were great.

486
01:14:50,333 --> 01:14:51,416
But to a nine year old in his

487
01:14:51,416 --> 01:14:53,375
imagination, I was like, nope, there's no

488
01:14:53,375 --> 01:14:55,416
way I'm going in the water for a while

489
01:14:55,416 --> 01:14:57,333
until my dad made me go into the ocean

490
01:14:57,333 --> 01:14:58,208
because he's like, you

491
01:14:58,208 --> 01:14:59,083
got to get over your fear.

492
01:14:59,625 --> 01:15:01,166
Then after that, I was fine. But, you

493
01:15:01,166 --> 01:15:02,916
know, it scared a heck of a lot of

494
01:15:02,916 --> 01:15:04,458
people, you know, and it and it

495
01:15:04,458 --> 01:15:06,916
definitely affected a lot of people in

496
01:15:06,916 --> 01:15:08,916
terms of how they perceive sharks in

497
01:15:08,916 --> 01:15:09,916
general, not just white

498
01:15:09,916 --> 01:15:11,750
sharks, but sharks in general.

499
01:15:11,833 --> 01:15:14,791
Now, all of you have worked, you know,

500
01:15:15,083 --> 01:15:17,375
throughout, you know, decades after Jaws.

501
01:15:17,375 --> 01:15:19,333
And of course, we could we could talk a

502
01:15:19,333 --> 01:15:20,333
little bit about the sequels.

503
01:15:20,333 --> 01:15:22,083
They're not they weren't as good as the

504
01:15:22,083 --> 01:15:24,333
as the original, you know, and different

505
01:15:24,333 --> 01:15:25,416
actors, like pretty big

506
01:15:25,416 --> 01:15:26,958
actors, maybe not at the time.

507
01:15:26,958 --> 01:15:28,541
But they were they were like Dennis Quaid

508
01:15:28,541 --> 01:15:30,708
and Louis Scott, a junior were in.

509
01:15:30,708 --> 01:15:32,791
I think it was Jaws 3D. I think it was.

510
01:15:32,791 --> 01:15:33,958
Michael Caine was in

511
01:15:33,958 --> 01:15:35,500
the third Jaws Revenge.

512
01:15:35,833 --> 01:15:37,083
So, yeah, it was

513
01:15:37,083 --> 01:15:38,791
definitely, you know, action packed.

514
01:15:38,833 --> 01:15:41,500
And a lot of people were into it.

515
01:15:41,500 --> 01:15:44,333
But from from your perspective, you know,

516
01:15:44,583 --> 01:15:46,583
and your evolution as a as a shark

517
01:15:46,583 --> 01:15:49,416
scientist to today, from then to today,

518
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:52,791
what did you see in terms of like, have

519
01:15:52,791 --> 01:15:55,625
you seen the perception of white sharks

520
01:15:55,625 --> 01:15:58,750
shift or even just sharks in general?

521
01:15:59,666 --> 01:16:01,833
Well, sorry, Chris, you've you all have

522
01:16:01,833 --> 01:16:04,041
you've done sharks like white sharks.

523
01:16:04,041 --> 01:16:05,916
But I know you've we've talked about

524
01:16:05,916 --> 01:16:07,291
white sharks recently with you as well.

525
01:16:07,750 --> 01:16:09,458
Let's start with you. Yeah.

526
01:16:09,750 --> 01:16:11,666
So my perception shift.

527
01:16:12,250 --> 01:16:13,500
Right. White sharks. I

528
01:16:13,500 --> 01:16:14,666
thought they were totally overrated.

529
01:16:14,916 --> 01:16:16,125
Premedana sharks. Right.

530
01:16:16,791 --> 01:16:19,583
And I swore I swore I was never going to

531
01:16:19,583 --> 01:16:20,125
work on white sharks.

532
01:16:20,333 --> 01:16:22,041
That would be totally selling out.

533
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:24,750
What's a freakin like doing right now?

534
01:16:24,750 --> 01:16:25,791
I'm studying white sharks.

535
01:16:26,625 --> 01:16:27,291
Yeah, I know. I'm selling.

536
01:16:29,708 --> 01:16:31,875
The problem was I got to

537
01:16:31,875 --> 01:16:33,291
hold a baby white shark.

538
01:16:33,541 --> 01:16:34,875
And I swear to God, those

539
01:16:34,875 --> 01:16:36,625
are the cutest things ever.

540
01:16:37,125 --> 01:16:38,166
I'm telling you right now,

541
01:16:38,166 --> 01:16:39,208
they are the cutest things ever.

542
01:16:40,250 --> 01:16:41,666
And it was holding a baby white shark. I

543
01:16:41,666 --> 01:16:44,833
was like, OK, Dan, it seems kind of cool.

544
01:16:46,291 --> 01:16:47,458
I'm right up to do this.

545
01:16:48,500 --> 01:16:49,833
So what was it? What was it about that

546
01:16:49,833 --> 01:16:52,625
little tiny baby shark that that made you

547
01:16:52,625 --> 01:16:54,083
a miniature, perfect

548
01:16:54,083 --> 01:16:55,666
miniature version of the adult?

549
01:16:56,083 --> 01:16:58,791
I mean, they're just scaled down. Right.

550
01:16:58,791 --> 01:16:59,916
And then, of course, once you start

551
01:16:59,916 --> 01:17:01,750
learning about their physiology and all

552
01:17:01,750 --> 01:17:02,500
those things, you're just

553
01:17:02,500 --> 01:17:03,958
like, OK, this is kind of cool.

554
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:06,000
You know, maker sharks are kind of like

555
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:07,375
the tweeters, but white

556
01:17:07,375 --> 01:17:09,791
sharks are just coming cool.

557
01:17:09,791 --> 01:17:10,833
And of all the sharks I've ever worked

558
01:17:10,833 --> 01:17:12,250
with, Greg, Lisa can

559
01:17:12,250 --> 01:17:13,166
probably attest to this.

560
01:17:13,333 --> 01:17:15,208
These things just they're

561
01:17:15,208 --> 01:17:17,708
easy sharks to work with. Right.

562
01:17:18,250 --> 01:17:20,125
Compared to all the other species,

563
01:17:20,833 --> 01:17:22,208
they're actually kind of a journey.

564
01:17:22,958 --> 01:17:26,625
So it's you know, it kind of defies the

565
01:17:26,625 --> 01:17:27,875
way people think of them. Right.

566
01:17:27,875 --> 01:17:28,958
The way they were portrayed in Jaws.

567
01:17:29,583 --> 01:17:32,000
And I think for me, that was a surprise.

568
01:17:32,666 --> 01:17:34,500
And I think people's perceptions are

569
01:17:34,500 --> 01:17:35,791
changing because of all the

570
01:17:35,791 --> 01:17:36,750
work that we've been doing.

571
01:17:37,166 --> 01:17:37,708
I think people are

572
01:17:37,708 --> 01:17:38,500
looking at white sharks.

573
01:17:39,500 --> 01:17:40,708
You know, it's it's you

574
01:17:40,708 --> 01:17:42,458
know, Jaws, it's in the water.

575
01:17:42,458 --> 01:17:43,583
It's going to come after you.

576
01:17:44,208 --> 01:17:46,041
No, that's simply not true. Right.

577
01:17:46,541 --> 01:17:49,041
So but it's think about that's 50 years

578
01:17:49,041 --> 01:17:50,541
to get to this point. Right.

579
01:17:50,875 --> 01:17:51,708
I mean, it's crazy.

580
01:17:52,625 --> 01:17:53,458
You know, the analogy I

581
01:17:53,458 --> 01:17:54,833
always use of whales. Right.

582
01:17:54,833 --> 01:17:57,291
So if you went to where I grew up 150

583
01:17:57,291 --> 01:17:59,166
years ago, you ask people about whales.

584
01:17:59,166 --> 01:18:00,000
They're like, those are

585
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:01,458
horrible animals. Right.

586
01:18:01,500 --> 01:18:02,625
They kill people.

587
01:18:03,125 --> 01:18:03,708
Whales are bad.

588
01:18:04,625 --> 01:18:06,500
They got a big makeover in the 70s.

589
01:18:06,708 --> 01:18:07,541
And literally overnight,

590
01:18:07,541 --> 01:18:08,833
people are like, we love whales.

591
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:12,000
OK, white sharks 50 years.

592
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:14,083
And we're finally starting to get there.

593
01:18:14,541 --> 01:18:16,333
But it's taking a long time.

594
01:18:16,333 --> 01:18:18,083
That sharper teeth than

595
01:18:18,083 --> 01:18:20,291
maybe than orcas, I guess.

596
01:18:20,291 --> 01:18:22,500
But they've got a worse rap, you know,

597
01:18:22,791 --> 01:18:24,958
100 percent damage for whales.

598
01:18:25,500 --> 01:18:26,583
But, you know, Jaws

599
01:18:26,583 --> 01:18:28,333
really turned the corner.

600
01:18:28,666 --> 01:18:30,166
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

601
01:18:30,250 --> 01:18:34,458
I was going to say it really it changed a

602
01:18:34,458 --> 01:18:35,750
lot, though, too, because there's

603
01:18:36,458 --> 01:18:38,625
up until like the early 80s, all the

604
01:18:38,625 --> 01:18:40,458
funny was all about shark attack

605
01:18:40,541 --> 01:18:42,333
through the Office of Naval Research and

606
01:18:42,333 --> 01:18:44,208
Chris, your your adviser,

607
01:18:44,500 --> 01:18:46,541
your master, Don Nelson, that was kind of

608
01:18:46,541 --> 01:18:48,541
his sort of bread and butter

609
01:18:48,541 --> 01:18:51,083
for decades, wasn't it? Pretty much.

610
01:18:51,333 --> 01:18:53,000
We did some crazy crap, right?

611
01:18:54,250 --> 01:18:55,583
All all all in the sake of

612
01:18:55,583 --> 01:18:57,041
saving people from sharks, right?

613
01:18:57,708 --> 01:18:59,458
All the chemical, electrical repellents

614
01:18:59,541 --> 01:19:01,333
we would go out on the channel and they

615
01:19:01,333 --> 01:19:02,458
eat in a bunch of blue sharks

616
01:19:02,458 --> 01:19:04,333
and you'd have a mackerel in one hand and

617
01:19:04,333 --> 01:19:06,125
a squirt gun with soap in your other.

618
01:19:06,875 --> 01:19:08,958
And you squirt the soap in their mouth

619
01:19:08,958 --> 01:19:10,291
and see if they go away.

620
01:19:10,291 --> 01:19:11,625
And of course, 10 minutes later, they

621
01:19:11,625 --> 01:19:13,166
come back and want a mackerel.

622
01:19:13,666 --> 01:19:15,166
Or you just knock them and you get

623
01:19:15,166 --> 01:19:17,000
shocked as bad as the shark would.

624
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:17,375
And you'd be like,

625
01:19:17,375 --> 01:19:18,333
why? Why are you doing?

626
01:19:19,041 --> 01:19:21,833
So all crazy stuff was to try

627
01:19:21,833 --> 01:19:23,083
to protect people from sharks.

628
01:19:23,791 --> 01:19:25,791
And here we are 50 years later and we're

629
01:19:25,791 --> 01:19:26,958
like, how do we

630
01:19:26,958 --> 01:19:28,000
protect sharks and people?

631
01:19:28,750 --> 01:19:31,083
Yeah, it's interesting flip, right?

632
01:19:31,083 --> 01:19:33,166
Yeah, I think that's the other thing that

633
01:19:33,166 --> 01:19:34,708
we went from that Jaws mentality

634
01:19:35,083 --> 01:19:37,458
of how to protect people from sharks to

635
01:19:37,458 --> 01:19:39,333
how we protect sharks and people.

636
01:19:39,916 --> 01:19:40,458
Yeah, for sure.

637
01:19:41,250 --> 01:19:42,458
I was going to say, you know, I'll give

638
01:19:42,458 --> 01:19:43,750
I'm going to give Greg Skomol's

639
01:19:43,750 --> 01:19:44,833
a book, another plug

640
01:19:44,833 --> 01:19:45,875
here is Chasing Shadows.

641
01:19:47,083 --> 01:19:49,875
Get it? It actually and I think I've

642
01:19:49,875 --> 01:19:50,750
never texted Greg when

643
01:19:50,750 --> 01:19:52,000
I first read the book

644
01:19:52,916 --> 01:19:55,458
is that the early part of that book I

645
01:19:55,458 --> 01:19:56,750
could really relate to because I was

646
01:19:56,833 --> 01:19:58,666
all that stuff that Greg talks about the

647
01:19:58,666 --> 01:19:59,791
time early in his career,

648
01:19:59,791 --> 01:20:00,791
because it's kind of early 80s

649
01:20:00,791 --> 01:20:02,750
when we were when we were kind of really

650
01:20:02,750 --> 01:20:04,750
starting out, I could just relate to it.

651
01:20:04,750 --> 01:20:06,000
You talked about some of the people like

652
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:08,166
talking to John McCasker, who is the

653
01:20:08,166 --> 01:20:10,000
California Academy of Sciences and some

654
01:20:10,000 --> 01:20:11,041
of the stuff going on there.

655
01:20:11,458 --> 01:20:13,458
At that same time out here in California,

656
01:20:13,458 --> 01:20:15,125
literally the same timeline, I was

657
01:20:15,125 --> 01:20:16,583
talking to McCasker about

658
01:20:16,583 --> 01:20:17,750
what do you think about?

659
01:20:17,750 --> 01:20:19,041
Can you go out and get white sharks?

660
01:20:19,041 --> 01:20:19,791
And he's like, you're never

661
01:20:19,791 --> 01:20:20,791
going to see enough of them.

662
01:20:21,166 --> 01:20:22,375
They'll pop up here and there.

663
01:20:22,875 --> 01:20:24,791
You're just kind of, you know, it's OK.

664
01:20:24,833 --> 01:20:27,083
But he actually got me on to seven gills

665
01:20:27,083 --> 01:20:27,916
sharks, which is where

666
01:20:27,916 --> 01:20:29,208
I took off of my career.

667
01:20:30,500 --> 01:20:32,791
But if you want to hear, but Greg's I

668
01:20:32,791 --> 01:20:36,000
Greg did a great job and I'll get to get

669
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:37,625
a check later from Greg, but all I get.

670
01:20:38,708 --> 01:20:40,458
But but I thought he did a really good

671
01:20:40,458 --> 01:20:42,250
job painting sort of that or that time

672
01:20:42,250 --> 01:20:44,375
frame when you know, when you were when

673
01:20:44,375 --> 01:20:45,708
he was starting out, he's looking around

674
01:20:45,708 --> 01:20:47,333
where to go and study sharks.

675
01:20:47,833 --> 01:20:49,125
And a lot of the people you mentioned was

676
01:20:49,125 --> 01:20:50,833
almost like kind of reminiscing, like

677
01:20:50,833 --> 01:20:53,916
just kind of parallel careers just on

678
01:20:53,916 --> 01:20:55,208
different coasts at that time.

679
01:20:57,041 --> 01:20:58,208
And of course, Lisa and I are in the same

680
01:20:58,208 --> 01:21:00,208
lab at the same time at Moss Landing

681
01:21:00,208 --> 01:21:00,916
Marine Laboratories.

682
01:21:01,458 --> 01:21:02,833
So that was that's a

683
01:21:02,833 --> 01:21:06,500
scary thought that's going to.

684
01:21:07,750 --> 01:21:09,916
You know, what was good?

685
01:21:10,500 --> 01:21:13,291
Yeah, well, like, yeah, I think, you

686
01:21:13,291 --> 01:21:14,833
know, obviously, I actually

687
01:21:14,833 --> 01:21:17,166
start back in the 60s and 50s.

688
01:21:17,208 --> 01:21:19,291
And the only good sharks, the dead shark.

689
01:21:19,291 --> 01:21:21,666
And we talk a lot about that history and

690
01:21:21,666 --> 01:21:23,500
the development and growth of shark

691
01:21:23,500 --> 01:21:26,791
tournaments, which were replacing, you

692
01:21:26,791 --> 01:21:28,500
know, tuna and swordfish and marlin

693
01:21:28,500 --> 01:21:29,541
tournaments up in New

694
01:21:29,541 --> 01:21:30,916
England and Northeast.

695
01:21:32,791 --> 01:21:34,500
And the perception was clearly, you know,

696
01:21:34,500 --> 01:21:36,125
the only good shark is a dead shark.

697
01:21:36,125 --> 01:21:39,333
But I as Chris said, you know, the the

698
01:21:39,333 --> 01:21:40,791
perception by the

699
01:21:40,791 --> 01:21:42,750
public is it has shifted.

700
01:21:42,958 --> 01:21:44,500
And I think it has a lot to do with the

701
01:21:44,500 --> 01:21:47,041
fact that we've gotten so much better at

702
01:21:47,041 --> 01:21:49,791
communicating with the public and

703
01:21:49,791 --> 01:21:52,291
educating the public and the idea of a

704
01:21:52,291 --> 01:21:55,458
scientist doing something in his or her

705
01:21:55,458 --> 01:21:57,416
lab or in the field and then publishing

706
01:21:57,416 --> 01:21:59,625
it in a in a journal that nobody reads.

707
01:21:59,625 --> 01:22:00,500
But other scientists,

708
01:22:00,500 --> 01:22:01,958
that's that's kind of over.

709
01:22:02,666 --> 01:22:03,875
And, you know, the Internet, social

710
01:22:03,875 --> 01:22:07,416
media, all those vectors have helped and

711
01:22:07,416 --> 01:22:08,500
groups, you know,

712
01:22:08,500 --> 01:22:10,208
conservation based groups and such.

713
01:22:10,250 --> 01:22:12,583
The word's out and people are engaged.

714
01:22:13,208 --> 01:22:15,041
And I think that's really helped to to

715
01:22:15,041 --> 01:22:17,166
turn, you know, the way people are

716
01:22:17,166 --> 01:22:18,250
thinking about sharks.

717
01:22:19,291 --> 01:22:21,291
Well, also, you know, if you look at it

718
01:22:21,291 --> 01:22:24,000
at the time that that jobs that we didn't

719
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:25,833
know much about gray white sharks, you

720
01:22:25,833 --> 01:22:27,083
know, we know probably a little bit, but

721
01:22:27,083 --> 01:22:28,166
not not even close to

722
01:22:28,166 --> 01:22:29,000
scratching the surface.

723
01:22:29,458 --> 01:22:31,291
But also, their population was down to

724
01:22:31,291 --> 01:22:33,125
like to compare to what it was today.

725
01:22:33,166 --> 01:22:35,125
It's Chris, I think you mentioned on one

726
01:22:35,125 --> 01:22:37,166
of one of the shows you were on where

727
01:22:37,166 --> 01:22:38,750
now, like, you look at the great white

728
01:22:38,750 --> 01:22:41,125
shark and it's a conservation success

729
01:22:41,125 --> 01:22:43,375
story, you know, since then, which you

730
01:22:43,375 --> 01:22:44,500
would think it would be the opposite

731
01:22:44,500 --> 01:22:47,083
after Jaws came out.

732
01:22:48,500 --> 01:22:50,875
And either anyone can answer this.

733
01:22:50,875 --> 01:22:52,458
But when did we really start seeing the

734
01:22:52,458 --> 01:22:55,666
shift in like an increase in population

735
01:22:55,666 --> 01:22:58,291
of great white sharks, either on the on

736
01:22:58,291 --> 01:22:59,500
the West Coast on the East Coast, I

737
01:22:59,500 --> 01:23:00,958
guess, which was was first was a West

738
01:23:00,958 --> 01:23:01,708
Coast or East Coast.

739
01:23:02,041 --> 01:23:04,125
And then when did we really start to see

740
01:23:04,125 --> 01:23:06,625
that that increase with the West?

741
01:23:07,041 --> 01:23:08,916
Yeah, I mean, I think Chris was one of

742
01:23:08,916 --> 01:23:10,500
the first people to start documenting

743
01:23:10,500 --> 01:23:14,500
that very well in some papers, looking

744
01:23:14,500 --> 01:23:16,458
at, I think, catch records in the gill

745
01:23:16,458 --> 01:23:17,750
net fishery, perhaps, Chris,

746
01:23:17,750 --> 01:23:18,833
I'll let you talk about that.

747
01:23:18,833 --> 01:23:20,500
But that that that was

748
01:23:20,500 --> 01:23:21,916
before what we started seeing.

749
01:23:22,541 --> 01:23:24,500
Yeah, I think, you know, that was a

750
01:23:24,500 --> 01:23:26,833
shocking part for me was looking at

751
01:23:26,833 --> 01:23:29,041
fishing records and seeing that change,

752
01:23:29,041 --> 01:23:30,875
right, seeing numbers high and then

753
01:23:30,875 --> 01:23:32,583
numbers go down and then suddenly numbers

754
01:23:32,583 --> 01:23:33,541
start to go up and

755
01:23:33,541 --> 01:23:35,291
then going, I can't be.

756
01:23:35,791 --> 01:23:37,541
We're telling the public shark shark

757
01:23:37,541 --> 01:23:38,541
populations are decreasing.

758
01:23:39,166 --> 01:23:41,625
How can this be going up? And and I had

759
01:23:41,625 --> 01:23:43,791
to do a lot of convincing of myself. I

760
01:23:43,791 --> 01:23:45,916
had to look at a lot of data to go, do I

761
01:23:45,916 --> 01:23:46,750
really believe this?

762
01:23:47,791 --> 01:23:49,583
And the great thing was, at the same

763
01:23:49,583 --> 01:23:51,916
time, you know, Greg was doing us work

764
01:23:51,916 --> 01:23:55,083
off of the con and I grew up there all my

765
01:23:55,083 --> 01:23:57,666
time, all my time in the water, never saw

766
01:23:57,666 --> 01:23:59,583
what I took my grandfather's commercial

767
01:23:59,583 --> 01:24:01,250
fishing for 65 years.

768
01:24:01,541 --> 01:24:01,750
Right.

769
01:24:01,958 --> 01:24:03,083
Ask them how many white sharks did you

770
01:24:03,083 --> 01:24:04,708
ever see in your life? He's like, maybe a

771
01:24:04,708 --> 01:24:07,208
few, but not, you know, not very many.

772
01:24:07,625 --> 01:24:10,333
Now, you know, in the summer, any day of

773
01:24:10,333 --> 01:24:11,916
the week, I can take somebody out and

774
01:24:11,916 --> 01:24:13,000
show them a white shark in Southern

775
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:13,791
California pretty

776
01:24:13,791 --> 01:24:15,250
much any day of the year.

777
01:24:15,583 --> 01:24:16,666
Yeah, that's a whole.

778
01:24:16,875 --> 01:24:18,750
Different. Paul, that's amazing.

779
01:24:19,041 --> 01:24:21,166
If you'd asked me 20 years ago, would I

780
01:24:21,166 --> 01:24:24,833
be able to do that in California? I

781
01:24:24,833 --> 01:24:26,250
wouldn't have predicted this.

782
01:24:26,583 --> 01:24:27,500
Even 20 years ago.

783
01:24:27,791 --> 01:24:28,041
Yeah.

784
01:24:29,041 --> 01:24:31,625
So 30. Yeah. 30 years after. Right. After

785
01:24:31,625 --> 01:24:33,125
the movie. Well, now, was there a

786
01:24:33,125 --> 01:24:36,041
decline? Was anybody out there after the

787
01:24:36,041 --> 01:24:38,208
movie came out? Was there like an

788
01:24:38,208 --> 01:24:40,791
increase in trying to fish for these for

789
01:24:40,791 --> 01:24:43,083
gray whites or trying to kill them

790
01:24:43,083 --> 01:24:44,333
because of the movie?

791
01:24:44,791 --> 01:24:47,458
Lisa, do you remember anything? Yeah, I

792
01:24:47,458 --> 01:24:49,208
mean, one of the things just to kind of

793
01:24:49,208 --> 01:24:52,583
follow up on something Greg said, um, and

794
01:24:52,583 --> 01:24:54,583
we were in the same project after I left

795
01:24:54,583 --> 01:24:56,541
the lab with Dave Greg and I were in the

796
01:24:56,541 --> 01:24:57,916
same project for a few years.

797
01:24:58,500 --> 01:25:00,000
And that project started back in the

798
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:02,041
sixties and and so did these tournaments.

799
01:25:02,333 --> 01:25:04,500
So the fishing didn't all start after

800
01:25:04,500 --> 01:25:07,750
Jaws and the perception of sharks was

801
01:25:07,750 --> 01:25:09,541
formulated before Jaws and

802
01:25:09,541 --> 01:25:11,583
just kind of enhanced by Jaws.

803
01:25:12,375 --> 01:25:14,375
And yes, the increase in shark

804
01:25:14,375 --> 01:25:16,000
tournaments, the increase in sports

805
01:25:16,000 --> 01:25:17,958
fishing for sharks definitely went up

806
01:25:17,958 --> 01:25:20,000
after Jaws and into the eighties.

807
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:21,375
I think it peaked in the eighties and

808
01:25:21,375 --> 01:25:22,833
nineties. Correct me if I'm wrong, Greg.

809
01:25:23,583 --> 01:25:25,250
And now you are. We see at least in the

810
01:25:25,250 --> 01:25:26,083
northeast, a lot of

811
01:25:26,083 --> 01:25:27,208
the tournaments are gone.

812
01:25:28,291 --> 01:25:32,958
A variety of reasons, actually. But I do

813
01:25:32,958 --> 01:25:35,250
want to disagree a little bit with Chris

814
01:25:35,250 --> 01:25:37,458
in that. I think the poor beagle babies

815
01:25:37,458 --> 01:25:39,500
are really way better than a white.

816
01:25:40,750 --> 01:25:41,000
Okay.

817
01:25:42,208 --> 01:25:42,625
Or just.

818
01:25:43,791 --> 01:25:47,625
I'll admit that still won't work on.

819
01:25:48,500 --> 01:25:52,916
They they actually deserve. They deserve

820
01:25:52,916 --> 01:25:55,291
to be worked on. They're not those prima

821
01:25:55,291 --> 01:25:56,833
donna white sharks. I think.

822
01:25:57,333 --> 01:26:00,000
I was just saying about white sharks. But

823
01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:01,625
you know what? Whether you like them or

824
01:26:01,625 --> 01:26:03,000
you don't like them, you think there's

825
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:03,500
too much research on them.

826
01:26:03,500 --> 01:26:06,208
You always want to go see them. And

827
01:26:06,208 --> 01:26:07,833
they're really cool animals going out

828
01:26:07,833 --> 01:26:10,583
with Greg on the boat is, you know, it's

829
01:26:10,583 --> 01:26:13,333
a highlight. So you can hate them all you

830
01:26:13,333 --> 01:26:14,833
want, but they're pretty cool.

831
01:26:16,041 --> 01:26:17,583
And I would assume to like, you know, the

832
01:26:17,583 --> 01:26:20,041
the all of a sudden the interest after

833
01:26:20,041 --> 01:26:23,125
Jaws on great whites, you know, at some

834
01:26:23,125 --> 01:26:26,041
point led to the the interest in other

835
01:26:26,041 --> 01:26:28,916
sharks like Mako's and blue sharks and

836
01:26:28,916 --> 01:26:31,125
all sorts of hammerheads and all the

837
01:26:31,125 --> 01:26:32,500
different like did that like kind of like

838
01:26:33,500 --> 01:26:38,500
Wooshi scoffs on n

839
01:26:38,500 --> 01:26:42,083
What we call here on like the iconic

840
01:26:42,083 --> 01:26:44,416
species of, you know, tires and

841
01:26:44,416 --> 01:26:47,125
hammerheads and so forth and nonetheless

842
01:26:47,125 --> 01:26:47,791
go ahead Lissa, Go ahead

843
01:26:47,791 --> 01:26:50,375
Once the fishing really was ramping up.

844
01:26:50,583 --> 01:26:51,958
They saw that there were all kinds of

845
01:26:51,958 --> 01:26:53,583
other species that were coming up in the

846
01:26:53,583 --> 01:26:56,750
summer, tigers, hammerheads May goes

847
01:26:56,750 --> 01:27:00,000
whatever. And so, yeah, the whenij

848
01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:01,041
any,speaking them the

849
01:27:01,041 --> 01:27:02,500
interest is for them.

850
01:27:03,500 --> 01:27:05,416
Unifishing can be very expensive, so

851
01:27:05,416 --> 01:27:07,000
people did shark fishing,

852
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:08,125
which was less expensive

853
01:27:08,125 --> 01:27:10,250
and a little more reliable at times.

854
01:27:11,500 --> 01:27:14,208
And that opens the floodgates for samples

855
01:27:14,208 --> 01:27:16,250
for us, and then we can

856
01:27:16,250 --> 01:27:20,541
study them and increase

857
01:27:20,708 --> 01:27:21,625
that kind of awareness.

858
01:27:22,875 --> 01:27:24,041
I was just saying, the West Coast, when

859
01:27:24,041 --> 01:27:24,666
Lisa and I were

860
01:27:24,666 --> 01:27:26,583
starting out, and Greg Kai was

861
01:27:26,583 --> 01:27:29,500
a professor, or advisor, professor,

862
01:27:29,583 --> 01:27:31,625
ichthyology professor at the time, the

863
01:27:31,625 --> 01:27:32,791
money was all fisheries

864
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:34,916
related on the West Coast, and a lot of

865
01:27:34,916 --> 01:27:36,166
it was Mako sharks,

866
01:27:36,416 --> 01:27:38,458
Thresher sharks, Blue sharks

867
01:27:38,458 --> 01:27:39,833
to a point were being fished.

868
01:27:40,416 --> 01:27:40,958
Lisa got it.

869
01:27:40,958 --> 01:27:42,333
They started Angel Shark Fishery, which

870
01:27:42,333 --> 01:27:43,875
is what Lisa got onto.

871
01:27:45,250 --> 01:27:48,000
But what was interesting is a dirty

872
01:27:48,000 --> 01:27:49,166
little secret is that they

873
01:27:49,166 --> 01:27:50,458
had this White Shark Conference

874
01:27:50,458 --> 01:27:52,125
at Fullerton State in 1983.

875
01:27:54,291 --> 01:27:56,125
And it was just, it was on White Sharks,

876
01:27:56,625 --> 01:27:57,916
and Greg was like, "Hey,

877
01:27:57,916 --> 01:27:58,666
let's do an agent growth

878
01:27:58,666 --> 01:27:59,625
paper on White Sharks."

879
01:28:00,500 --> 01:28:02,375
And so Lisa and I were literally like the

880
01:28:02,375 --> 01:28:03,625
two youngest people there.

881
01:28:03,625 --> 01:28:04,250
They ended up going to

882
01:28:04,250 --> 01:28:05,250
this thing at the time.

883
01:28:06,166 --> 01:28:07,750
And it's kind of funny now, if you look

884
01:28:07,750 --> 01:28:09,375
down at the publication

885
01:28:09,375 --> 01:28:10,333
that came out, it's like

886
01:28:10,333 --> 01:28:12,041
a who's who of shark in

887
01:28:12,041 --> 01:28:13,250
the shark world at the time.

888
01:28:14,750 --> 01:28:17,333
But even though it was on White Sharks,

889
01:28:17,333 --> 01:28:17,875
that was like, I think

890
01:28:17,875 --> 01:28:19,041
one of our first papers

891
01:28:20,791 --> 01:28:21,708
that Lisa and I did

892
01:28:21,708 --> 01:28:23,916
was on the White Sharks.

893
01:28:23,958 --> 01:28:25,416
A little fact, a lot of

894
01:28:25,416 --> 01:28:26,583
people don't know about us.

895
01:28:28,041 --> 01:28:31,750
But I think the thing, and

896
01:28:31,750 --> 01:28:33,666
see what you hear your take.

897
01:28:33,666 --> 01:28:34,708
Well, I think I know what your take is,

898
01:28:34,708 --> 01:28:35,833
Lisa, but that

899
01:28:35,833 --> 01:28:37,625
conference turned into an amazing

900
01:28:37,625 --> 01:28:41,125
networking event for both Lisa and I,

901
01:28:41,541 --> 01:28:43,208
because people like Jack

902
01:28:43,208 --> 01:28:47,500
Casey, Wes Pratt, Frank Carey,

903
01:28:48,250 --> 01:28:50,250
Leonard Campagno, Don Nelson.

904
01:28:50,541 --> 01:28:53,375
I mean, it was like a who's who of like,

905
01:28:53,375 --> 01:28:54,875
you know, people and

906
01:28:54,875 --> 01:28:56,000
the legends in the shark

907
01:28:56,000 --> 01:28:56,375
field.

908
01:28:56,625 --> 01:28:59,625
And that was when I met Jack and Wes and

909
01:28:59,625 --> 01:29:01,000
subsequently went to

910
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:03,333
work for them and all

911
01:29:03,333 --> 01:29:03,583
that.

912
01:29:04,458 --> 01:29:04,916
Yeah.

913
01:29:04,916 --> 01:29:06,458
That was like, that's, I met, you know,

914
01:29:06,458 --> 01:29:07,666
I'd met Leonard, but got

915
01:29:07,666 --> 01:29:08,541
to know Leonard at that

916
01:29:08,625 --> 01:29:09,333
conference there.

917
01:29:09,333 --> 01:29:10,166
And then that led to me

918
01:29:10,166 --> 01:29:12,083
eventually going on for South.

919
01:29:12,166 --> 01:29:14,000
Shelly Affelgate was another one and

920
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:15,000
young people, if you

921
01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:15,750
don't know these names, you

922
01:29:15,791 --> 01:29:17,125
should look them up because they're all,

923
01:29:17,125 --> 01:29:18,541
they're all well

924
01:29:18,541 --> 01:29:20,041
known legend in the field.

925
01:29:20,250 --> 01:29:22,333
And Dave, and this kind

926
01:29:22,333 --> 01:29:23,291
of shows you something.

927
01:29:23,708 --> 01:29:24,375
When we did that

928
01:29:24,375 --> 01:29:26,041
paper, how many specimens?

929
01:29:26,291 --> 01:29:27,708
We had 13 specimens that

930
01:29:27,708 --> 01:29:29,000
we aged for that paper.

931
01:29:29,416 --> 01:29:29,958
Yeah.

932
01:29:29,958 --> 01:29:30,958
Greg and I did our paper.

933
01:29:31,166 --> 01:29:32,250
We had what upwards of

934
01:29:32,250 --> 01:29:34,500
150 or something like that.

935
01:29:34,500 --> 01:29:34,708
Yeah.

936
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:35,208
Wow.

937
01:29:35,541 --> 01:29:35,750
Yeah.

938
01:29:36,416 --> 01:29:38,250
That took 50 years to get that many.

939
01:29:39,083 --> 01:29:39,791
Years of collecting.

940
01:29:40,125 --> 01:29:42,333
So just an increase that

941
01:29:42,333 --> 01:29:43,541
we were seeing at the end.

942
01:29:45,291 --> 01:29:45,875
That's the interesting

943
01:29:45,875 --> 01:29:47,333
thing about white sharks, right?

944
01:29:48,250 --> 01:29:49,541
So, Andrew, coming back to your original

945
01:29:49,541 --> 01:29:51,500
point, I think what

946
01:29:51,500 --> 01:29:52,583
happened was the juveniles

947
01:29:52,583 --> 01:29:53,583
were being caught in

948
01:29:53,583 --> 01:29:55,166
commercial fisheries in California.

949
01:29:55,166 --> 01:29:56,083
They're being sold a shark.

950
01:29:56,666 --> 01:29:58,166
You can't if I stake them out, you

951
01:29:58,166 --> 01:29:58,708
couldn't tell the

952
01:29:58,708 --> 01:30:00,166
difference, you know, Mako and a

953
01:30:00,166 --> 01:30:01,000
white shirt stick, right?

954
01:30:01,833 --> 01:30:02,666
So people were eating it.

955
01:30:02,666 --> 01:30:04,375
They didn't know it, but the adults

956
01:30:04,375 --> 01:30:05,500
couldn't really be caught

957
01:30:05,500 --> 01:30:07,125
in traditional fishing gear.

958
01:30:07,250 --> 01:30:08,416
So people actually had to

959
01:30:08,416 --> 01:30:09,916
deliberately go out and get them.

960
01:30:10,500 --> 01:30:12,000
And the reason why there weren't a lot of

961
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:12,833
samples, especially

962
01:30:12,833 --> 01:30:13,875
big samples for them to

963
01:30:13,916 --> 01:30:16,250
work with is there was no fishery for

964
01:30:16,250 --> 01:30:17,333
adult white sharks, right?

965
01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:20,083
So in California, there were incidents

966
01:30:20,083 --> 01:30:21,083
where a fisherman went

967
01:30:21,083 --> 01:30:22,541
out in Farallon to kill four

968
01:30:22,541 --> 01:30:24,000
in a day, adults, right?

969
01:30:24,500 --> 01:30:25,291
But that's rare.

970
01:30:26,041 --> 01:30:28,166
So the reason why, you know, this has

971
01:30:28,166 --> 01:30:29,291
kind of been this kind

972
01:30:29,291 --> 01:30:31,250
of slow thing is really

973
01:30:31,250 --> 01:30:32,833
juveniles that were impacted that was

974
01:30:32,833 --> 01:30:34,666
drawing the population down.

975
01:30:35,500 --> 01:30:37,041
And of course you have fewer adults.

976
01:30:37,458 --> 01:30:39,375
So therefore, you know, we just don't

977
01:30:39,375 --> 01:30:40,458
really, we still don't

978
01:30:40,458 --> 01:30:41,750
even have very much data on

979
01:30:41,750 --> 01:30:42,083
adults.

980
01:30:42,750 --> 01:30:44,333
You know, age and growth

981
01:30:44,333 --> 01:30:46,041
wise, you can't age something.

982
01:30:46,041 --> 01:30:47,083
You can't count.

983
01:30:47,458 --> 01:30:49,500
So getting vertebrae from big adult

984
01:30:49,500 --> 01:30:50,958
females or things like that, you just

985
01:30:50,958 --> 01:30:52,541
don't get access to.

986
01:30:52,750 --> 01:30:53,750
Yeah. So I think

987
01:30:53,750 --> 01:30:55,375
that's part of that story.

988
01:30:55,875 --> 01:30:57,583
And of course, you know, what happened

989
01:30:57,583 --> 01:31:00,416
with sharks and that popularity was, you

990
01:31:00,416 --> 01:31:03,250
know, by 70s, Noah was already

991
01:31:03,250 --> 01:31:05,083
fishing down a lot of other populations.

992
01:31:05,166 --> 01:31:08,291
So cod were gone, flat fishers won.

993
01:31:08,708 --> 01:31:09,833
Fishermen were pissed because

994
01:31:09,833 --> 01:31:10,875
all they're catching is sharks.

995
01:31:11,708 --> 01:31:13,291
And Noah's going, can we

996
01:31:13,291 --> 01:31:14,541
make these things valuable?

997
01:31:14,833 --> 01:31:16,458
Can people make a living off these?

998
01:31:16,958 --> 01:31:18,375
And they actually did

999
01:31:18,375 --> 01:31:20,708
market testing for the company.

1000
01:31:21,416 --> 01:31:22,333
Right. And they pushed it.

1001
01:31:23,083 --> 01:31:24,833
Exactly. And it happened fast.

1002
01:31:25,208 --> 01:31:27,625
Right. So it went from, you know, not a

1003
01:31:27,625 --> 01:31:29,833
value to, oops, maybe we

1004
01:31:29,833 --> 01:31:31,333
over fish these things too fast.

1005
01:31:32,208 --> 01:31:34,500
So it was at that time Jaws was coming

1006
01:31:34,500 --> 01:31:35,375
out that that was

1007
01:31:35,375 --> 01:31:36,500
really starting to happen.

1008
01:31:36,958 --> 01:31:37,166
Yeah.

1009
01:31:37,666 --> 01:31:39,541
Yeah. I know. I say that what you know,

1010
01:31:39,541 --> 01:31:40,416
it's Chris said there.

1011
01:31:40,416 --> 01:31:41,875
And I know this from talking with Leonard

1012
01:31:41,875 --> 01:31:43,666
Kapanja, who grew up in San Francisco

1013
01:31:43,666 --> 01:31:45,833
next to Chinatown, you

1014
01:31:45,833 --> 01:31:48,625
know, shark fins, shark meats.

1015
01:31:48,875 --> 01:31:49,708
You know, it was very

1016
01:31:49,708 --> 01:31:51,000
popular in the Chinese community.

1017
01:31:51,000 --> 01:31:53,375
A lot of it was exported at the time.

1018
01:31:53,375 --> 01:31:56,166
This was in the 40s and 50s and 60s.

1019
01:31:56,166 --> 01:31:57,750
But like the fishing tournaments in New

1020
01:31:57,750 --> 01:31:59,833
England, nobody said nobody cared.

1021
01:31:59,833 --> 01:32:01,083
Nobody paid any attention to him.

1022
01:32:01,083 --> 01:32:03,583
And I always tell people, like, you know,

1023
01:32:03,583 --> 01:32:04,791
I give talks like you guys do.

1024
01:32:04,833 --> 01:32:06,375
I was like, Jaws kind of brought this

1025
01:32:06,375 --> 01:32:08,083
whole thing out of the shadows and into

1026
01:32:08,083 --> 01:32:09,875
the public light because

1027
01:32:09,875 --> 01:32:11,208
it was it was going on.

1028
01:32:11,208 --> 01:32:12,791
And nobody, nobody really

1029
01:32:12,791 --> 01:32:14,291
nobody paid any attention to it.

1030
01:32:14,291 --> 01:32:15,541
And if they wouldn't have if there would

1031
01:32:15,541 --> 01:32:17,250
have been Jaws, it might eventually come

1032
01:32:17,250 --> 01:32:18,125
to people's attention.

1033
01:32:18,791 --> 01:32:19,125
But they're just

1034
01:32:19,125 --> 01:32:20,708
they're just catching sharks.

1035
01:32:20,708 --> 01:32:21,875
And nobody was just nobody

1036
01:32:21,875 --> 01:32:23,166
thought anything about it.

1037
01:32:23,416 --> 01:32:25,791
Well, one interesting thing that's going

1038
01:32:25,791 --> 01:32:28,791
on now is now that the shark population

1039
01:32:28,791 --> 01:32:30,500
is not necessarily whites, but I'm

1040
01:32:30,500 --> 01:32:32,791
talking sandbars, dustbuds, whatever, are

1041
01:32:32,791 --> 01:32:33,916
coming back a little bit.

1042
01:32:34,041 --> 01:32:34,833
There's a lot of

1043
01:32:34,833 --> 01:32:35,958
pushback from the fishermen.

1044
01:32:35,958 --> 01:32:37,333
They want to start fishing them hard

1045
01:32:37,333 --> 01:32:40,166
again because they're getting their wahoo

1046
01:32:40,166 --> 01:32:42,291
or their mahi bitten by shark

1047
01:32:42,291 --> 01:32:44,458
and they're out for blood now.

1048
01:32:45,083 --> 01:32:46,000
So it's kind of interesting

1049
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:47,250
because you get that cycle.

1050
01:32:47,250 --> 01:32:48,375
Now we're getting back to what

1051
01:32:48,375 --> 01:32:49,750
we want to kill these sharks.

1052
01:32:50,708 --> 01:32:52,500
Yes, it's very similar to like the the

1053
01:32:52,500 --> 01:32:53,541
seal and sea lion

1054
01:32:53,541 --> 01:32:54,833
population on both coasts.

1055
01:32:55,083 --> 01:32:56,833
Right. And everybody hated it when they

1056
01:32:56,833 --> 01:32:57,791
were low population.

1057
01:32:57,791 --> 01:32:59,500
And then when they made regulations to

1058
01:32:59,500 --> 01:33:01,083
make them better, like the Marine Mail

1059
01:33:01,083 --> 01:33:02,416
Protection Act, all of a sudden, they're

1060
01:33:02,416 --> 01:33:03,666
like, well, hold on a second now.

1061
01:33:04,125 --> 01:33:05,000
Like, you know, maybe

1062
01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:06,541
they're eating all our fish.

1063
01:33:06,541 --> 01:33:07,333
So like we maybe we

1064
01:33:07,333 --> 01:33:08,208
should start hunting them.

1065
01:33:08,500 --> 01:33:10,375
So, yeah, it's it's

1066
01:33:10,375 --> 01:33:11,208
it's always interesting.

1067
01:33:11,208 --> 01:33:12,625
I wanted to just take a little bit.

1068
01:33:12,625 --> 01:33:13,500
I know this is this is a great

1069
01:33:13,500 --> 01:33:14,833
conversation, but I wanted to talk a

1070
01:33:14,833 --> 01:33:16,875
little bit of these hot takes that I I

1071
01:33:16,875 --> 01:33:18,250
kind of looked up that people had.

1072
01:33:18,583 --> 01:33:20,916
So the first one and this goes to anybody

1073
01:33:20,916 --> 01:33:23,250
who wants to to talk about it.

1074
01:33:23,666 --> 01:33:27,375
But was Jaws in the movie like when you

1075
01:33:27,375 --> 01:33:29,291
first watched it and maybe now you're not

1076
01:33:29,291 --> 01:33:31,083
sure if your perceptions change.

1077
01:33:31,125 --> 01:33:33,125
Was Jaws the villain or the victim?

1078
01:33:33,125 --> 01:33:40,875
I say I thought it was just a monster.

1079
01:33:41,583 --> 01:33:43,125
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just

1080
01:33:43,125 --> 01:33:43,875
thought it was a monster.

1081
01:33:44,291 --> 01:33:45,333
It was it was the

1082
01:33:45,333 --> 01:33:46,708
villain. It was the villain.

1083
01:33:47,583 --> 01:33:49,375
I think he might have started out the

1084
01:33:49,375 --> 01:33:50,708
film that became the victim.

1085
01:33:51,875 --> 01:33:54,291
Yeah. Yeah, I think it. Yeah.

1086
01:33:55,291 --> 01:33:57,166
Yeah, I didn't I didn't I didn't I didn't

1087
01:33:57,166 --> 01:33:58,166
definitely never sense any.

1088
01:33:58,750 --> 01:34:01,291
It was the victim at all at the time.

1089
01:34:01,291 --> 01:34:03,333
It was just at the time. But now do you

1090
01:34:03,333 --> 01:34:04,250
think it's the do you

1091
01:34:04,250 --> 01:34:05,166
think it's the victim?

1092
01:34:06,500 --> 01:34:09,500
Uh, you know, the shark in

1093
01:34:09,500 --> 01:34:11,958
the movie is is is a nightmare.

1094
01:34:12,041 --> 01:34:14,041
Yeah. Right. If that wasn't it because

1095
01:34:14,041 --> 01:34:16,041
it's something but it wasn't because

1096
01:34:16,041 --> 01:34:17,458
humans like pissed it off.

1097
01:34:17,708 --> 01:34:18,500
Right. Essentially.

1098
01:34:18,916 --> 01:34:20,500
Well, not the first one.

1099
01:34:20,750 --> 01:34:23,833
No, I would say my students would be

1100
01:34:23,833 --> 01:34:27,583
offended at them harpooning that shark.

1101
01:34:28,041 --> 01:34:29,000
Like they would find that

1102
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:31,625
for right. It's just for right.

1103
01:34:32,458 --> 01:34:34,333
Despite all the beginning part of the

1104
01:34:34,333 --> 01:34:36,041
movie. Right. Yeah. They

1105
01:34:36,041 --> 01:34:37,500
would still find that offensive.

1106
01:34:38,541 --> 01:34:40,083
So, you know, I think that's that

1107
01:34:40,083 --> 01:34:41,791
generation. Right. We've seen the

1108
01:34:41,791 --> 01:34:43,416
generation shift where they look at that

1109
01:34:43,416 --> 01:34:44,208
and go that's for because

1110
01:34:44,208 --> 01:34:45,791
the perceptions has changed to.

1111
01:34:46,041 --> 01:34:46,625
Yeah. Yeah.

1112
01:34:47,083 --> 01:34:47,583
So people have.

1113
01:34:52,666 --> 01:34:54,416
On the East Coast has that changed or is

1114
01:34:54,416 --> 01:34:55,708
it now that it is still a villain?

1115
01:34:56,916 --> 01:34:58,583
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, no, I mean, the

1116
01:34:58,583 --> 01:35:00,458
character in the film is a villain.

1117
01:35:00,750 --> 01:35:02,958
You know, there's nothing that shark does

1118
01:35:02,958 --> 01:35:04,625
that I think gets sympathy.

1119
01:35:06,500 --> 01:35:09,708
But sharks in general now are the

1120
01:35:09,708 --> 01:35:11,458
victims, I think more so than.

1121
01:35:12,000 --> 01:35:15,583
I have to say one thing from the I don't

1122
01:35:15,583 --> 01:35:16,166
know how you got how

1123
01:35:16,166 --> 01:35:16,958
you guys felt about this.

1124
01:35:17,000 --> 01:35:19,041
But the first time I saw that in the

1125
01:35:19,041 --> 01:35:20,541
white shark jumped in the back of the

1126
01:35:20,541 --> 01:35:23,500
boat, I just thought there just no.

1127
01:35:23,500 --> 01:35:26,375
I mean, I didn't know. No way. Everybody

1128
01:35:26,375 --> 01:35:29,666
is like, no way. That could never happen.

1129
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:35,000
The Q Air Jaws. Well, maybe maybe that

1130
01:35:35,000 --> 01:35:35,750
could happen. Who

1131
01:35:35,750 --> 01:35:37,708
knows? Well, you are the.

1132
01:35:37,708 --> 01:35:39,333
Like I've told the story before.

1133
01:35:39,333 --> 01:35:41,166
But the thing is, I went first went to

1134
01:35:41,166 --> 01:35:42,458
South Africa in 1986.

1135
01:35:43,208 --> 01:35:45,083
The people down there along the coastal

1136
01:35:45,083 --> 01:35:46,041
area, you know, these

1137
01:35:46,041 --> 01:35:47,208
white sharks, they breach.

1138
01:35:47,708 --> 01:35:49,208
Now, you guys are full of shit.

1139
01:35:49,208 --> 01:35:49,791
They know why.

1140
01:35:50,666 --> 01:35:53,791
And the guys that knew where to go,

1141
01:35:53,791 --> 01:35:55,083
there's a few there's a few spots.

1142
01:35:55,666 --> 01:35:57,458
They go out there and they would do these

1143
01:35:57,458 --> 01:35:58,416
like kite fishing like

1144
01:35:58,416 --> 01:36:00,750
holy fly this fish out here.

1145
01:36:01,166 --> 01:36:02,083
And these freaking

1146
01:36:02,083 --> 01:36:03,458
sharks are just white sharks.

1147
01:36:03,458 --> 01:36:04,250
Big ones just come

1148
01:36:04,250 --> 01:36:05,416
flying out of the water.

1149
01:36:06,458 --> 01:36:07,750
And then I came back.

1150
01:36:07,750 --> 01:36:09,000
I mean, I first came home

1151
01:36:09,000 --> 01:36:10,291
from South Africa to visiting.

1152
01:36:10,291 --> 01:36:12,541
I saw people like John McCasker and Bob

1153
01:36:12,541 --> 01:36:15,125
Lee and Greg, the usual guy.

1154
01:36:15,500 --> 01:36:16,875
And they thought like, OK,

1155
01:36:17,041 --> 01:36:18,291
were you drunk or stoned?

1156
01:36:18,958 --> 01:36:21,083
And I was like, no, seriously, these

1157
01:36:21,083 --> 01:36:21,958
these sharks can really

1158
01:36:21,958 --> 01:36:22,916
jump out of the water.

1159
01:36:23,833 --> 01:36:26,250
And it was it was it was amazing.

1160
01:36:26,250 --> 01:36:27,875
And then, of course, years later, Chris

1161
01:36:27,875 --> 01:36:29,041
Fowlas started doing it

1162
01:36:29,041 --> 01:36:30,750
and became, of course,

1163
01:36:30,750 --> 01:36:32,458
British and famous, which I just would

1164
01:36:32,458 --> 01:36:32,916
have thought about

1165
01:36:32,916 --> 01:36:33,833
when I was a grad student.

1166
01:36:35,250 --> 01:36:38,083
But but then I had these same guys are

1167
01:36:38,083 --> 01:36:39,000
saying, hey, Dave, did

1168
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:39,708
you ever see these white

1169
01:36:39,750 --> 01:36:41,416
sharks in like South Africa breach?

1170
01:36:42,250 --> 01:36:43,250
And I was like, yeah, no shit.

1171
01:36:43,250 --> 01:36:44,291
I told you like five

1172
01:36:44,291 --> 01:36:45,458
years ago about this.

1173
01:36:45,458 --> 01:36:45,916
And you guys thought

1174
01:36:45,916 --> 01:36:47,375
I was drunk or stoned.

1175
01:36:50,791 --> 01:36:52,500
That's all. All right. The next one is

1176
01:36:52,500 --> 01:36:54,708
it's a shark movie fatigue.

1177
01:36:55,333 --> 01:36:57,666
So some people think Jaws spawned too

1178
01:36:57,666 --> 01:37:00,291
many inferior shark movies, leading to a

1179
01:37:00,291 --> 01:37:01,916
wave of cheesy knockoffs

1180
01:37:01,916 --> 01:37:03,000
that diluted the genre.

1181
01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:05,541
So like Sharknado and things like that.

1182
01:37:05,916 --> 01:37:08,916
Have there been has there been a better

1183
01:37:08,916 --> 01:37:11,041
movie than Jaws about

1184
01:37:11,041 --> 01:37:12,250
sharks like fictional,

1185
01:37:12,625 --> 01:37:14,333
whether it be a horror, whether it be a

1186
01:37:14,333 --> 01:37:16,083
thriller, what like has

1187
01:37:16,083 --> 01:37:16,958
there in your opinion,

1188
01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:18,000
has there been a better

1189
01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:19,083
movie than Jaws on sharks?

1190
01:37:19,416 --> 01:37:20,583
That's not a documentary.

1191
01:37:22,041 --> 01:37:22,791
I would say no.

1192
01:37:24,333 --> 01:37:25,875
Yeah, no, I agree with Lisa.

1193
01:37:26,458 --> 01:37:27,041
Yeah, I think so.

1194
01:37:27,625 --> 01:37:29,375
I mean, it's damn good. Don't get me.

1195
01:37:29,875 --> 01:37:34,125
Yeah, I know. I love all eight of them or

1196
01:37:34,125 --> 01:37:35,291
however many there are now.

1197
01:38:01,666 --> 01:38:24,375
Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's like I kept trying to pitch to get my lab in the movie just to have one. Yeah.

1198
01:38:24,750 --> 01:38:30,375
Did you remember motion, just wood?

1199
01:38:30,916 --> 01:38:31,083
Yes.

1200
01:38:31,333 --> 01:38:36,166
Yes. I remember that motion that my mother was caused by an Swamp. No, it's an 1865. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1201
01:38:36,375 --> 01:38:39,416
Greg, what about you? Smooth

1202
01:38:39,416 --> 01:38:43,125
dogfish? Maybe? No. A school of

1203
01:38:43,125 --> 01:38:44,875
spiny dogfish tearing me apart

1204
01:38:44,875 --> 01:38:46,583
like piranhas would be really

1205
01:38:46,583 --> 01:38:48,958
funny. You know, I think I like

1206
01:38:48,958 --> 01:38:51,291
that. I mean, I'm I'm just it's

1207
01:38:51,291 --> 01:38:52,458
not really happening to me,

1208
01:38:52,458 --> 01:38:53,166
right? No, no, it's not really

1209
01:38:53,166 --> 01:38:54,166
happen. It's just a movie. It's

1210
01:38:54,166 --> 01:38:55,000
just a movie. Yeah, that'd be

1211
01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:56,083
kind of fun. You're all coming

1212
01:39:00,916 --> 01:39:04,375
right down to bones. Right?

1213
01:39:04,375 --> 01:39:05,041
All right, Chris, what about

1214
01:39:05,041 --> 01:39:07,000
yourself? Oh, I'd have to say

1215
01:39:07,000 --> 01:39:10,375
cookie cutter. Oh, that's my

1216
01:39:10,375 --> 01:39:12,083
biggest nightmare. Oh, yeah.

1217
01:39:12,458 --> 01:39:13,500
That's horrible. Because those

1218
01:39:13,500 --> 01:39:15,333
damn thing, we get 18 inches.

1219
01:39:15,333 --> 01:39:16,250
Can you imagine if they got like

1220
01:39:16,250 --> 01:39:19,583
six feet? Oh my God. Yeah, it

1221
01:39:19,583 --> 01:39:20,375
wouldn't be a cookie cutter

1222
01:39:20,416 --> 01:39:21,500
anymore. They just swallow. You

1223
01:39:21,500 --> 01:39:23,416
don't get melon ball to death.

1224
01:39:23,416 --> 01:39:23,625
Right?

1225
01:39:24,208 --> 01:39:30,791
Oh, man. Dave, what about you? Are you

1226
01:39:30,791 --> 01:39:33,458
like goblin shark or or a chimera?

1227
01:39:33,750 --> 01:39:35,791
I'd have to I'd have to say frilled

1228
01:39:35,791 --> 01:39:37,625
shark and I say frilled shark

1229
01:39:38,125 --> 01:39:39,708
because in one of the I think it was

1230
01:39:39,708 --> 01:39:41,291
a shark NATO two or three they had a

1231
01:39:41,291 --> 01:39:43,291
frilled shark attack some guy in the

1232
01:39:43,375 --> 01:39:44,708
and then I thought oh that'd be

1233
01:39:44,708 --> 01:39:48,541
pretty awesome. That'd be good. I

1234
01:39:48,541 --> 01:39:49,875
would say a goblin shark because I

1235
01:39:49,875 --> 01:39:51,333
would that I feel like that's a good

1236
01:39:51,458 --> 01:39:54,208
like, yeah, villain of a, you know, of a

1237
01:39:54,208 --> 01:39:55,458
character. Yeah, it's got

1238
01:39:55,458 --> 01:39:58,125
that cool jar. Yeah. Yeah.

1239
01:39:58,500 --> 01:39:58,958
Yeah. Sure.

1240
01:39:59,083 --> 01:40:00,000
Definitely got that. Definitely

1241
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:02,416
got the alien jaws going on that one.

1242
01:40:02,416 --> 01:40:03,125
That would be the shot,

1243
01:40:03,125 --> 01:40:04,000
right? Holding it by the

1244
01:40:04,000 --> 01:40:05,625
neck. Well, it's jaws. Yeah. Yeah. You're

1245
01:40:05,625 --> 01:40:07,125
trying to grab it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

1246
01:40:07,500 --> 01:40:08,041
Jaws come out like a

1247
01:40:08,041 --> 01:40:08,875
bit. Yeah, it's like alien.

1248
01:40:09,125 --> 01:40:10,041
Yeah, for sure. Oh,

1249
01:40:10,041 --> 01:40:11,666
yeah. Absolutely. Let's

1250
01:40:11,666 --> 01:40:17,375
pitch that. All right. Here's one that's

1251
01:40:17,375 --> 01:40:20,208
interesting. The economic impact. Did the

1252
01:40:20,250 --> 01:40:24,416
film increase the like the tourism

1253
01:40:24,458 --> 01:40:26,791
economy in Martha's Vineyard at the time?

1254
01:40:27,708 --> 01:40:29,500
Oh, yeah. Because I

1255
01:40:29,500 --> 01:40:30,500
did get like an influx

1256
01:40:30,500 --> 01:40:31,208
of tourists at the

1257
01:40:31,208 --> 01:40:33,291
time. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

1258
01:40:33,958 --> 01:40:36,791
And that's necessary that summer is after

1259
01:40:37,625 --> 01:40:40,916
right. Definitely picked up and you know,

1260
01:40:40,916 --> 01:40:41,708
that interest in

1261
01:40:41,708 --> 01:40:43,000
sharks definitely picked up.

1262
01:40:43,583 --> 01:40:44,541
So I think, you know,

1263
01:40:44,916 --> 01:40:46,291
people recognize places

1264
01:40:46,291 --> 01:40:47,083
that they saw in the

1265
01:40:47,083 --> 01:40:48,791
movie, right? So it, you

1266
01:40:48,833 --> 01:40:49,875
know, the bridge, you

1267
01:40:49,875 --> 01:40:50,708
know, where the shark goes

1268
01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:52,166
under, you know, people

1269
01:40:52,166 --> 01:40:53,250
recognize those places.

1270
01:40:53,750 --> 01:40:54,791
So I think it was fun

1271
01:40:54,791 --> 01:40:55,916
for people to go to the

1272
01:40:55,916 --> 01:40:56,791
island and think, oh,

1273
01:40:56,791 --> 01:40:57,583
this is where it all took

1274
01:40:57,750 --> 01:40:59,916
place. And I can envision sharks swimming

1275
01:40:59,916 --> 01:41:00,791
underneath the bridge or

1276
01:41:00,791 --> 01:41:02,416
something like that. So I

1277
01:41:02,666 --> 01:41:03,375
think, you know, it was

1278
01:41:03,375 --> 01:41:04,666
a boom for the island.

1279
01:41:05,416 --> 01:41:07,208
Yeah. Did you get out

1280
01:41:07,208 --> 01:41:08,208
and do any like as a kid,

1281
01:41:08,208 --> 01:41:09,000
do any tour guiding

1282
01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:10,416
like say, hey, pay me like

1283
01:41:10,416 --> 01:41:11,250
10 bucks. I'll take you

1284
01:41:11,250 --> 01:41:11,916
around and show all the

1285
01:41:11,916 --> 01:41:15,208
places. No, no. But we

1286
01:41:15,208 --> 01:41:16,291
would be the one spear

1287
01:41:16,291 --> 01:41:17,166
fishing underneath that

1288
01:41:17,166 --> 01:41:18,583
bridge where nobody would

1289
01:41:18,666 --> 01:41:20,000
go on the water. We used

1290
01:41:20,000 --> 01:41:20,666
to jump off that bridge

1291
01:41:20,666 --> 01:41:21,541
all the time. Right. That

1292
01:41:21,541 --> 01:41:22,583
was the fun thing to do.

1293
01:41:23,000 --> 01:41:23,958
And then we would spearfish

1294
01:41:23,958 --> 01:41:25,500
under the bridge and people

1295
01:41:25,500 --> 01:41:26,166
would be like, oh my

1296
01:41:26,166 --> 01:41:27,583
God, you crazy. The shark

1297
01:41:27,583 --> 01:41:29,333
goes right underneath there.

1298
01:41:30,583 --> 01:41:31,000
You mean the

1299
01:41:31,000 --> 01:41:32,458
mechanical shark in the movie?

1300
01:41:32,958 --> 01:41:33,916
They couldn't even get the mechanical

1301
01:41:33,916 --> 01:41:34,666
shark through there.

1302
01:41:36,625 --> 01:41:38,666
I got asked a question.

1303
01:41:38,666 --> 01:41:39,291
I'm just kind of curious.

1304
01:41:39,500 --> 01:41:40,875
Is that in that lagoon

1305
01:41:40,875 --> 01:41:41,875
there where the shark was in?

1306
01:41:41,875 --> 01:41:42,791
Is it, is it tend to

1307
01:41:42,791 --> 01:41:44,416
be a Marine or more of a

1308
01:41:44,541 --> 01:41:46,000
estuarine in that area?

1309
01:41:47,166 --> 01:41:49,416
That's Dr. Strom. He was doing scallop

1310
01:41:49,416 --> 01:41:50,416
work, I think, at the time.

1311
01:41:52,166 --> 01:41:52,916
Yeah, I spirit a lot

1312
01:41:52,916 --> 01:41:53,916
of fish in that pond.

1313
01:41:54,166 --> 01:41:55,250
It's a yeah, it's a salt

1314
01:41:55,250 --> 01:41:56,500
pond. You know, it's OK.

1315
01:41:57,083 --> 01:41:59,875
Yeah, it's a great producer of scallops

1316
01:41:59,875 --> 01:42:02,750
and all kinds of shellfish and and

1317
01:42:03,000 --> 01:42:04,250
flounder. Man, I nailed a

1318
01:42:04,250 --> 01:42:05,375
lot of flounder in that book.

1319
01:42:06,333 --> 01:42:07,375
Yeah. And they call

1320
01:42:07,375 --> 01:42:08,750
that bridge Jaws Bridge.

1321
01:42:09,041 --> 01:42:10,833
You know, right. I mean, come to the

1322
01:42:10,833 --> 01:42:13,208
island and they love to jump off it.

1323
01:42:13,250 --> 01:42:14,500
And it's it's popular.

1324
01:42:14,500 --> 01:42:15,875
All the spots are, you know.

1325
01:42:16,333 --> 01:42:18,208
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1326
01:42:18,208 --> 01:42:21,541
Yeah. And did you have did you have any,

1327
01:42:22,083 --> 01:42:23,416
Greg, do you have any like when in New

1328
01:42:23,416 --> 01:42:24,875
England, you when you were growing up,

1329
01:42:24,875 --> 01:42:26,500
did you ever have any like encounters

1330
01:42:26,500 --> 01:42:27,958
with any of the people from Jaws like

1331
01:42:27,958 --> 01:42:29,500
Chris did at all when they.

1332
01:42:29,500 --> 01:42:31,583
Well, you know, as as Chris mentioned, I

1333
01:42:31,583 --> 01:42:33,958
actually met Chris on the vineyard

1334
01:42:34,583 --> 01:42:38,708
because I moved out there in 1987 and and

1335
01:42:38,708 --> 01:42:40,291
lived there for 23 years.

1336
01:42:40,875 --> 01:42:42,083
And he left. He goes, I got

1337
01:42:42,083 --> 01:42:43,000
to get the hell out of here.

1338
01:42:44,416 --> 01:42:45,666
You know what, man, you

1339
01:42:45,666 --> 01:42:46,875
went to Hawaii, didn't you?

1340
01:42:46,875 --> 01:42:47,791
You're like, I'm going to go one island

1341
01:42:47,791 --> 01:42:50,875
to the California for your first right.

1342
01:42:50,875 --> 01:42:51,833
Right. Right. Right. Right.

1343
01:42:51,833 --> 01:42:53,333
Yes. So all the characters that Chris

1344
01:42:53,333 --> 01:42:54,333
mentions, you know, I

1345
01:42:54,333 --> 01:42:55,291
I met them, but they

1346
01:42:55,291 --> 01:42:56,833
were old, you know, right.

1347
01:42:57,083 --> 01:43:01,750
One of them is police chief now and I

1348
01:43:01,750 --> 01:43:03,125
think he just retired, actually.

1349
01:43:03,125 --> 01:43:04,958
He did. He did. Yeah.

1350
01:43:05,291 --> 01:43:06,333
Jonathan. And so, yeah,

1351
01:43:06,333 --> 01:43:07,833
there's a there's still characters.

1352
01:43:07,875 --> 01:43:10,208
Matter of fact, I'm going to the 50th

1353
01:43:10,208 --> 01:43:12,583
anniversary celebration on the vineyard

1354
01:43:13,375 --> 01:43:15,750
in late June. Nice. OK.

1355
01:43:16,250 --> 01:43:18,416
I'll be a guest there and give some talks

1356
01:43:18,416 --> 01:43:19,458
and all that will be fun.

1357
01:43:19,458 --> 01:43:20,375
And they're going to bring some of the

1358
01:43:20,375 --> 01:43:22,250
old whatever actors are alive.

1359
01:43:22,250 --> 01:43:22,750
I don't know who's

1360
01:43:22,750 --> 01:43:24,500
left. Maybe Dreyfus. Yeah.

1361
01:43:24,916 --> 01:43:27,500
And they're still kicking a

1362
01:43:27,500 --> 01:43:28,500
bunch of the production crew.

1363
01:43:29,041 --> 01:43:30,333
OK, that's awesome.

1364
01:43:30,583 --> 01:43:32,291
What about what about Ben Gardner?

1365
01:43:32,291 --> 01:43:33,916
His what widow still arounders?

1366
01:43:38,875 --> 01:43:40,041
That's another character.

1367
01:43:40,458 --> 01:43:42,166
Oh, my God. Was that was it?

1368
01:43:42,666 --> 01:43:43,708
Craig Kingsbury, who

1369
01:43:43,708 --> 01:43:45,375
is that that character?

1370
01:43:45,375 --> 01:43:46,750
Oh, my God. He was a selectman.

1371
01:43:47,083 --> 01:43:48,125
He was a huge crazy.

1372
01:43:48,708 --> 01:43:49,083
Oh, yeah.

1373
01:43:50,458 --> 01:43:52,208
Those are all true Islanders right there.

1374
01:43:52,208 --> 01:43:53,500
Introduce the island.

1375
01:43:53,791 --> 01:43:54,500
Did you know that, right?

1376
01:43:54,958 --> 01:43:55,333
Say again.

1377
01:43:56,125 --> 01:43:58,000
Craig Kingsbury, who is Ben Gardner,

1378
01:43:58,375 --> 01:44:00,458
introduced stumps to Martha's Vineyard.

1379
01:44:00,458 --> 01:44:01,916
Oh, I didn't know.

1380
01:44:02,416 --> 01:44:03,791
I don't know. Kingsbury did it.

1381
01:44:04,083 --> 01:44:04,958
I heard a rumor that

1382
01:44:04,958 --> 01:44:06,291
another person did it.

1383
01:44:06,416 --> 01:44:08,625
But supposedly just crap.

1384
01:44:10,041 --> 01:44:12,250
Yeah, that's well, let's

1385
01:44:12,250 --> 01:44:13,166
keep it amongst ourselves.

1386
01:44:13,500 --> 01:44:14,750
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1387
01:44:15,000 --> 01:44:16,000
Between the five. I want

1388
01:44:16,000 --> 01:44:17,458
to hear more about that.

1389
01:44:17,916 --> 01:44:20,083
Yeah, for people.

1390
01:44:20,083 --> 01:44:21,291
Listen, if you're running who Ben Gardner

1391
01:44:21,291 --> 01:44:22,000
is, you got to go watch

1392
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:23,166
the movie to find out.

1393
01:44:23,208 --> 01:44:25,250
Yes. Absolutely.

1394
01:44:25,250 --> 01:44:26,750
That was that was probably the most scary

1395
01:44:26,750 --> 01:44:28,458
scene for I thought when that when

1396
01:44:28,750 --> 01:44:29,750
in that when Ben

1397
01:44:29,750 --> 01:44:31,541
Gardner popped up, literally.

1398
01:44:31,791 --> 01:44:36,583
I think I went to a Jaws fest once years

1399
01:44:36,583 --> 01:44:38,333
ago and hit that head

1400
01:44:38,333 --> 01:44:39,250
that they used in the

1401
01:44:39,250 --> 01:44:41,083
mountain was there and I photographed it.

1402
01:44:41,458 --> 01:44:42,250
I actually put it in

1403
01:44:42,250 --> 01:44:43,500
one of my A.S. talks.

1404
01:44:43,916 --> 01:44:45,750
Yeah, I remember how I built it in.

1405
01:44:46,083 --> 01:44:47,000
But I use Ben Gardner's

1406
01:44:47,000 --> 01:44:48,875
head in one of my talks.

1407
01:44:49,250 --> 01:44:50,041
Yeah. Yeah.

1408
01:44:50,208 --> 01:44:52,166
I think it was a talk you gave.

1409
01:44:52,166 --> 01:44:53,708
We talked when they had that big white

1410
01:44:53,708 --> 01:44:55,125
shark in the lagoon that was trapped.

1411
01:44:55,416 --> 01:44:58,000
I think it was that was the one there.

1412
01:44:58,000 --> 01:44:59,333
Because I remember I remember it popped

1413
01:44:59,333 --> 01:45:00,708
up in your talk there.

1414
01:45:00,750 --> 01:45:02,375
I was watching. I was like, oh, Jesus.

1415
01:45:05,000 --> 01:45:06,208
I think I use that line.

1416
01:45:07,208 --> 01:45:08,583
I definitely use that

1417
01:45:08,583 --> 01:45:09,583
picture in my talks.

1418
01:45:09,875 --> 01:45:10,750
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

1419
01:45:11,125 --> 01:45:13,333
I'm talking on the phone behind him and

1420
01:45:13,333 --> 01:45:15,083
he's going, has anybody seen a shark?

1421
01:45:15,333 --> 01:45:17,750
Yeah, he's been right behind me.

1422
01:45:18,125 --> 01:45:20,375
I think I think Chris, I

1423
01:45:20,375 --> 01:45:21,666
think I think we use that.

1424
01:45:21,666 --> 01:45:23,083
I think we use that when we promoted

1425
01:45:23,083 --> 01:45:24,791
Chris or Greg's episode

1426
01:45:24,791 --> 01:45:26,125
on this podcast episode.

1427
01:45:26,125 --> 01:45:27,916
I think we I got a copy that it might

1428
01:45:27,916 --> 01:45:28,875
have been from Chris or somebody.

1429
01:45:28,875 --> 01:45:30,500
I got a copy of that and I ended up

1430
01:45:30,500 --> 01:45:32,666
that's that's like the thumbnail for for

1431
01:45:32,666 --> 01:45:35,833
for Greg's for Greg's thing.

1432
01:45:36,291 --> 01:45:37,750
I think I think Chris, when your show

1433
01:45:37,750 --> 01:45:39,750
your show, the thumbnail, we had a had a

1434
01:45:39,750 --> 01:45:41,208
dual thing with with Matt

1435
01:45:41,208 --> 01:45:43,625
Hooper with with you like with

1436
01:45:45,666 --> 01:45:46,583
what's the actor's name again?

1437
01:45:46,958 --> 01:45:48,500
The guy played Hooper in there.

1438
01:45:49,041 --> 01:45:51,000
Dreyfus. Yeah, he's he's out

1439
01:45:51,000 --> 01:45:52,541
there trying to tag the jaws.

1440
01:45:52,541 --> 01:45:53,833
And then there's Chris is like sitting

1441
01:45:53,833 --> 01:45:54,458
there tagging is a

1442
01:45:54,458 --> 01:45:56,166
little like baby white shark.

1443
01:45:58,958 --> 01:46:01,500
Oh, man. Little bit different tagging and

1444
01:46:01,500 --> 01:46:03,125
tagging in different different eras.

1445
01:46:03,791 --> 01:46:05,166
And I know I mentioned this before, but I

1446
01:46:05,166 --> 01:46:06,916
was mentioning it like Glennard Kup on

1447
01:46:06,916 --> 01:46:09,000
you as my advisor for my Ph.D.

1448
01:46:09,000 --> 01:46:11,083
He he worked on the mechanical shark

1449
01:46:11,083 --> 01:46:12,625
Bruce for the movie.

1450
01:46:13,416 --> 01:46:15,125
And I know you guys all kind of knew

1451
01:46:15,125 --> 01:46:16,333
Leonard to different degrees.

1452
01:46:16,333 --> 01:46:18,458
And he was I mean, trying to picture that

1453
01:46:18,458 --> 01:46:20,958
guy who is let's all he was eccentric

1454
01:46:23,250 --> 01:46:25,541
for a couple of weeks down in Burbank

1455
01:46:25,541 --> 01:46:26,791
working on the shark.

1456
01:46:27,416 --> 01:46:28,083
Man, I've been loved have

1457
01:46:28,083 --> 01:46:29,541
been a fly on the wall for that.

1458
01:46:29,541 --> 01:46:30,750
Well, and and the shark

1459
01:46:30,750 --> 01:46:32,041
didn't work properly, right?

1460
01:46:32,041 --> 01:46:33,625
I think, Chris, you know that it was like

1461
01:46:33,625 --> 01:46:34,875
it was very problematic

1462
01:46:34,875 --> 01:46:36,083
in terms of how it worked.

1463
01:46:36,333 --> 01:46:38,500
Yeah. Well, Leonard's role was just to

1464
01:46:38,500 --> 01:46:40,166
make sure it looked like a white shark.

1465
01:46:40,166 --> 01:46:40,958
They were they really

1466
01:46:40,958 --> 01:46:41,916
wanted to make sure.

1467
01:46:41,916 --> 01:46:44,000
And I don't know how you guys felt when I

1468
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:44,750
first saw the movie.

1469
01:46:44,750 --> 01:46:46,083
I thought it looked that shark looked

1470
01:46:46,083 --> 01:46:47,416
pretty damn real to me.

1471
01:46:47,833 --> 01:46:48,750
But I watch it now.

1472
01:46:48,750 --> 01:46:49,458
I'm like, you know, it's

1473
01:46:49,458 --> 01:46:50,458
like a mechanical shark.

1474
01:46:50,583 --> 01:46:51,916
It's kind of I agree.

1475
01:46:51,958 --> 01:46:54,375
No, first, I mean, it looked pretty good

1476
01:46:54,375 --> 01:46:55,958
special effects for back then.

1477
01:46:56,166 --> 01:46:57,291
Oh, 100 percent. Yeah.

1478
01:46:58,000 --> 01:46:59,750
Well, I mean, if you think about it after

1479
01:46:59,750 --> 01:47:01,166
that, was it didn't he do didn't

1480
01:47:01,166 --> 01:47:03,000
Spielberg do Star Wars after that?

1481
01:47:03,000 --> 01:47:05,875
Right. And like, yeah, they use this like

1482
01:47:05,875 --> 01:47:09,458
similar special effects styles.

1483
01:47:09,583 --> 01:47:11,208
Right. In terms of obviously

1484
01:47:11,208 --> 01:47:12,708
didn't use a mechanical shark.

1485
01:47:12,708 --> 01:47:14,333
But, you know, like different different

1486
01:47:14,333 --> 01:47:16,500
properties, you know, but very similar.

1487
01:47:17,666 --> 01:47:20,000
Yeah. But you know, I would argue that

1488
01:47:20,000 --> 01:47:20,958
was the magic of the movie.

1489
01:47:21,375 --> 01:47:22,875
Right. The magic of the movie was out

1490
01:47:22,875 --> 01:47:25,125
getting failed in getting good underwater

1491
01:47:25,125 --> 01:47:26,291
footage of white sharks.

1492
01:47:27,375 --> 01:47:27,875
And all they had was

1493
01:47:27,875 --> 01:47:28,750
the mechanical shark.

1494
01:47:29,083 --> 01:47:30,541
So and they want to show it very often

1495
01:47:30,541 --> 01:47:31,750
because it did look kind of fake.

1496
01:47:33,125 --> 01:47:34,208
Most of the monsters melt

1497
01:47:34,208 --> 01:47:36,125
made in your head. Right.

1498
01:47:36,125 --> 01:47:36,541
Yeah, that's true.

1499
01:47:37,208 --> 01:47:37,750
And the music.

1500
01:47:38,541 --> 01:47:40,291
The music probably did. I think it's

1501
01:47:40,291 --> 01:47:41,250
probably the most popular

1502
01:47:41,250 --> 01:47:43,500
shark identifying music.

1503
01:47:43,666 --> 01:47:44,958
When people hear that, they know

1504
01:47:44,958 --> 01:47:46,291
something's about to come up or

1505
01:47:46,291 --> 01:47:47,625
something's coming from somewhere.

1506
01:47:48,583 --> 01:47:49,958
But yeah, you're right. They didn't show

1507
01:47:49,958 --> 01:47:51,000
it that often. But you

1508
01:47:51,000 --> 01:47:53,125
knew you knew you feared it.

1509
01:47:53,416 --> 01:47:54,875
Yeah, I mean, I was kind of good the way

1510
01:47:54,875 --> 01:47:56,125
they kind of stealthily did it.

1511
01:47:56,125 --> 01:47:57,833
And I think then they end up getting some

1512
01:47:57,833 --> 01:48:00,208
of the footage from the Rod and Valerie

1513
01:48:00,208 --> 01:48:01,541
Taylor shot it down in

1514
01:48:01,541 --> 01:48:02,875
Australia was the stuff.

1515
01:48:03,625 --> 01:48:04,291
That was the ballad

1516
01:48:04,291 --> 01:48:05,458
games and the trip failed.

1517
01:48:06,250 --> 01:48:07,500
Oh, the weather. They had

1518
01:48:07,500 --> 01:48:08,500
a hard time finding sharks.

1519
01:48:08,500 --> 01:48:09,458
They went out a bunch of times.

1520
01:48:09,666 --> 01:48:11,708
They just had a hard time.

1521
01:48:11,708 --> 01:48:13,208
All they got was a few clicks.

1522
01:48:14,125 --> 01:48:14,333
OK.

1523
01:48:15,250 --> 01:48:16,583
And then they shot all that stuff.

1524
01:48:16,791 --> 01:48:18,708
You know, shark POV at the beginning.

1525
01:48:18,708 --> 01:48:19,583
Yeah. Yeah.

1526
01:48:19,791 --> 01:48:20,791
They shot that.

1527
01:48:21,333 --> 01:48:22,416
And that was I was reading.

1528
01:48:22,416 --> 01:48:23,833
That was like a new thing.

1529
01:48:24,041 --> 01:48:25,958
Nobody had ever really done that before.

1530
01:48:25,958 --> 01:48:28,583
And that really changed the game in terms

1531
01:48:28,583 --> 01:48:31,083
of horror movies, apparently, is to have

1532
01:48:31,083 --> 01:48:35,000
the sort of the killer, the monster POV

1533
01:48:35,000 --> 01:48:37,625
to to be like, OK, now we're seeing it from their point of view.

1534
01:48:37,666 --> 01:48:39,833
And this is even this

1535
01:48:39,833 --> 01:48:40,791
makes it even scary.

1536
01:48:40,791 --> 01:48:41,916
If you look at all the horror movies

1537
01:48:41,916 --> 01:48:44,375
after that, the Halloweens, the Jason's,

1538
01:48:44,375 --> 01:48:45,750
you almost like see it from there and you

1539
01:48:45,750 --> 01:48:47,958
know, you know, it can be it

1540
01:48:47,958 --> 01:48:49,041
can be like a creepy feeling.

1541
01:48:49,291 --> 01:48:50,625
So, yeah, that was apparently that was

1542
01:48:50,625 --> 01:48:51,708
the first time I was ever done.

1543
01:48:52,458 --> 01:48:55,250
So, yeah, I think that that era, some of

1544
01:48:55,250 --> 01:48:56,875
the stuff, those movies like the Jaws

1545
01:48:56,875 --> 01:48:58,041
movie and then the

1546
01:48:58,041 --> 01:48:59,583
Star Wars, it came out.

1547
01:48:59,583 --> 01:49:02,000
Those are like, you know, at that time,

1548
01:49:02,583 --> 01:49:04,375
like, I think Lisa said, like, you never

1549
01:49:04,375 --> 01:49:04,625
went back to see a movie.

1550
01:49:04,666 --> 01:49:06,083
You'd watch it once.

1551
01:49:06,333 --> 01:49:06,750
That'd be it.

1552
01:49:06,750 --> 01:49:08,000
Yeah, those movies you

1553
01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:09,083
want to go see again.

1554
01:49:09,416 --> 01:49:10,000
Indiana Jones.

1555
01:49:10,416 --> 01:49:11,416
Yeah, the Indiana Jones.

1556
01:49:11,416 --> 01:49:12,000
Yeah, those are.

1557
01:49:12,000 --> 01:49:13,125
Yeah, those were movies you want.

1558
01:49:13,416 --> 01:49:15,375
Yeah, you want to go see again, which was

1559
01:49:15,375 --> 01:49:16,750
at that up to that

1560
01:49:16,750 --> 01:49:17,833
point was like unheard of.

1561
01:49:17,833 --> 01:49:18,541
You'd want to actually

1562
01:49:18,541 --> 01:49:19,500
go back and see the same.

1563
01:49:19,666 --> 01:49:22,416
Same movie at the time on that.

1564
01:49:22,875 --> 01:49:24,666
And are they up to in mind?

1565
01:49:24,875 --> 01:49:26,166
You actually had to go to a theater.

1566
01:49:26,166 --> 01:49:27,000
You couldn't just watch it

1567
01:49:27,000 --> 01:49:28,875
on Netflix in your house.

1568
01:49:29,375 --> 01:49:29,583
Yeah.

1569
01:49:29,791 --> 01:49:30,166
Yeah.

1570
01:49:31,500 --> 01:49:31,666
Yeah.

1571
01:49:31,666 --> 01:49:31,958
Yeah.

1572
01:49:33,666 --> 01:49:34,916
I mean, we would we would

1573
01:49:34,916 --> 01:49:35,666
we had spent a long time.

1574
01:49:35,666 --> 01:49:37,458
We'd like we'd like pull money for like

1575
01:49:37,458 --> 01:49:39,125
one guy to get in the movie theater

1576
01:49:39,125 --> 01:49:40,291
because we didn't have any money.

1577
01:49:40,291 --> 01:49:42,375
We're just kids and one guy going and

1578
01:49:42,375 --> 01:49:43,583
going to your truck.

1579
01:49:43,583 --> 01:49:44,250
Yeah.

1580
01:49:44,250 --> 01:49:45,875
The tribe in there'd be like there'd be

1581
01:49:45,875 --> 01:49:47,375
like one guy and there'd be like six

1582
01:49:47,375 --> 01:49:50,458
hiding in the back or something or one

1583
01:49:50,458 --> 01:49:51,833
guy would go in the theater and then you

1584
01:49:51,833 --> 01:49:53,500
go to the back door emergency exit and

1585
01:49:53,500 --> 01:49:54,333
let everybody else in

1586
01:49:54,333 --> 01:49:55,375
through the back door.

1587
01:50:02,666 --> 01:50:04,791
I guess the first question is, do you

1588
01:50:04,791 --> 01:50:07,791
think that Jaws had a net benefit impact

1589
01:50:07,791 --> 01:50:10,875
on sharks as opposed to sort of that

1590
01:50:10,875 --> 01:50:12,541
negative outlook? Do you think it

1591
01:50:12,541 --> 01:50:14,958
actually made it more positive just with

1592
01:50:14,958 --> 01:50:16,875
your experience with working with sharks

1593
01:50:16,875 --> 01:50:18,375
and how we understand sharks now?

1594
01:50:18,791 --> 01:50:20,125
Or do you think it still had a net

1595
01:50:20,125 --> 01:50:22,208
negative effect on sharks?

1596
01:50:23,875 --> 01:50:26,583
Well, I think long term long term, I

1597
01:50:26,583 --> 01:50:27,541
think it's been positive.

1598
01:50:27,958 --> 01:50:28,541
Right. Yeah.

1599
01:50:28,833 --> 01:50:29,041
Yeah.

1600
01:50:29,666 --> 01:50:33,000
I did a show once called How How Jaws

1601
01:50:33,000 --> 01:50:34,666
Changed the World and I was interviewed

1602
01:50:34,666 --> 01:50:37,125
in it and maybe you guys did too.

1603
01:50:37,125 --> 01:50:38,958
But I mean, the interview filmmakers,

1604
01:50:39,250 --> 01:50:41,333
underwater photographers, all these

1605
01:50:41,333 --> 01:50:43,791
people, boat builder, all these people

1606
01:50:43,791 --> 01:50:45,750
who are inspired by Jaws. Right.

1607
01:50:46,500 --> 01:50:47,916
They really emphasize that.

1608
01:50:48,333 --> 01:50:50,333
And I think in the long

1609
01:50:50,333 --> 01:50:51,666
term, it's been a positive.

1610
01:50:52,000 --> 01:50:52,166
Yeah.

1611
01:50:53,208 --> 01:50:53,250
I.

1612
01:50:53,250 --> 01:50:54,500
And I agree with the same thing.

1613
01:50:54,666 --> 01:50:57,208
I always like said, I think people all

1614
01:50:57,208 --> 01:50:58,750
that stuff is the finning, the shark

1615
01:50:58,750 --> 01:51:00,083
fishing were going on and

1616
01:51:00,083 --> 01:51:01,416
then sharks brought it out.

1617
01:51:02,000 --> 01:51:03,000
And I think people were

1618
01:51:03,000 --> 01:51:04,458
made people more aware of it.

1619
01:51:04,458 --> 01:51:06,500
And I think after the initial, you know,

1620
01:51:07,375 --> 01:51:10,666
that time or a good

1621
01:51:10,666 --> 01:51:11,416
shark is a dead shark.

1622
01:51:11,416 --> 01:51:12,750
It evolved into like people

1623
01:51:12,750 --> 01:51:14,625
are like got curiosity about it.

1624
01:51:15,125 --> 01:51:16,291
And so people started like

1625
01:51:16,291 --> 01:51:17,416
asking a lot of questions.

1626
01:51:17,416 --> 01:51:19,125
I mean, I guess I always look at that's

1627
01:51:19,125 --> 01:51:21,625
how the art, the contemporary shark field

1628
01:51:21,625 --> 01:51:23,666
today, the non shark attack stuff, really kind of grew.

1629
01:51:24,666 --> 01:51:26,250
Grew out of Jaws because people asked a

1630
01:51:26,250 --> 01:51:28,250
lot of questions, wanted to know like how

1631
01:51:28,250 --> 01:51:29,333
old the sharks get, you

1632
01:51:29,333 --> 01:51:30,083
know, where do they live?

1633
01:51:30,083 --> 01:51:30,875
How many are there?

1634
01:51:31,250 --> 01:51:31,916
Where do they go?

1635
01:51:32,541 --> 01:51:32,750
Right.

1636
01:51:32,833 --> 01:51:34,875
You know, a lot of people saw Matt Hooper

1637
01:51:34,875 --> 01:51:35,750
and thought he was cool

1638
01:51:35,750 --> 01:51:38,333
and start getting interested.

1639
01:51:38,916 --> 01:51:40,208
And yeah, scientists came

1640
01:51:40,208 --> 01:51:41,250
out of that movie, I think.

1641
01:51:41,875 --> 01:51:43,000
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1642
01:51:43,666 --> 01:51:45,416
I would I would agree with that.

1643
01:51:45,416 --> 01:51:46,250
I think a lot of people

1644
01:51:46,250 --> 01:51:47,833
got interested in science.

1645
01:51:47,833 --> 01:51:49,375
And yeah. Yeah.

1646
01:51:49,375 --> 01:51:49,625
Right.

1647
01:51:50,375 --> 01:51:50,583
Yeah.

1648
01:51:51,666 --> 01:51:53,291
And I think for our generation, I think

1649
01:51:53,291 --> 01:51:55,416
that was a big movie.

1650
01:51:55,416 --> 01:51:57,208
Well, here's a follow up to that.

1651
01:51:57,208 --> 01:51:59,041
I just you know, you know, now we have

1652
01:51:59,041 --> 01:52:01,708
all these streaming sites and, you know,

1653
01:52:01,708 --> 01:52:04,291
CGI and special effects have gone to a

1654
01:52:04,291 --> 01:52:06,708
place where I mean, even A.I.

1655
01:52:21,666 --> 01:52:23,083
I think that sharks

1656
01:52:23,083 --> 01:52:25,041
would would do better.

1657
01:52:25,041 --> 01:52:26,916
Even research would would be more

1658
01:52:26,916 --> 01:52:29,375
invigorated by another Jaws movie or do

1659
01:52:29,375 --> 01:52:31,500
you think it would actually have a more

1660
01:52:31,500 --> 01:52:32,208
of a negative effect

1661
01:52:32,208 --> 01:52:33,166
at this point in time?

1662
01:52:34,125 --> 01:52:35,125
Oh, I've been thinking

1663
01:52:35,125 --> 01:52:36,916
about this. Yeah. Yeah.

1664
01:52:36,916 --> 01:52:39,583
I want to do a remake. And the reason is,

1665
01:52:39,583 --> 01:52:40,458
is I think you could

1666
01:52:40,458 --> 01:52:41,750
flip the script completely.

1667
01:52:42,666 --> 01:52:46,375
So now with CGI, you can totally give

1668
01:52:46,375 --> 01:52:47,125
people that

1669
01:52:47,125 --> 01:52:48,625
perception of being the shark.

1670
01:52:49,666 --> 01:52:52,791
So there's only a just a few

1671
01:52:52,791 --> 01:52:54,833
seconds of that. Yeah. Yeah.

1672
01:52:55,166 --> 01:52:56,458
And, you know, I've been thinking about

1673
01:52:56,458 --> 01:52:59,000
this concept of my my ancestors were

1674
01:52:59,000 --> 01:53:00,500
whalers. Right. Right.

1675
01:53:00,875 --> 01:53:02,666
Imagine being a whale back in the early

1676
01:53:02,666 --> 01:53:04,750
1800s, mid 1800s when

1677
01:53:04,750 --> 01:53:06,166
everybody was hunting you.

1678
01:53:06,666 --> 01:53:08,208
You know, be cool to do like

1679
01:53:08,208 --> 01:53:10,000
a reverse movie dick. Right.

1680
01:53:10,708 --> 01:53:13,708
It's from the whales perspective. I think

1681
01:53:13,708 --> 01:53:14,500
that would be kind of cool.

1682
01:53:14,666 --> 01:53:16,500
It might flip the script in terms of how

1683
01:53:16,500 --> 01:53:17,666
people think about the shark. Yeah.

1684
01:53:18,666 --> 01:53:19,958
You could still make it a horror movie

1685
01:53:19,958 --> 01:53:21,416
because it could be evil.

1686
01:53:21,666 --> 01:53:24,583
Sure. But I think there's a lot of cool

1687
01:53:24,583 --> 01:53:26,083
things you can do now.

1688
01:53:26,625 --> 01:53:30,041
We couldn't do that. And I think, you

1689
01:53:30,041 --> 01:53:31,666
know, there's opportunities to do that

1690
01:53:31,666 --> 01:53:32,666
and make it interesting

1691
01:53:32,666 --> 01:53:34,166
fun or at least entertaining.

1692
01:53:34,916 --> 01:53:37,625
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would

1693
01:53:37,625 --> 01:53:39,000
say if they'd be interested.

1694
01:53:39,666 --> 01:53:41,166
I say come up with a new script, though.

1695
01:53:41,458 --> 01:53:42,375
Don't try to rehash.

1696
01:53:42,666 --> 01:53:45,875
You say every time they every time they

1697
01:53:45,875 --> 01:53:48,166
try to reimagine the same freaking

1698
01:53:48,166 --> 01:53:50,916
script, it's a disaster movie. Literally.

1699
01:53:51,666 --> 01:53:56,958
So if they're just Gen Z, but I mean, I

1700
01:53:56,958 --> 01:54:01,666
think it's just a lot.

1701
01:54:01,916 --> 01:54:03,333
TikTok. That's all you scroll.

1702
01:54:03,666 --> 01:54:06,791
That's the attention span of most of the

1703
01:54:06,791 --> 01:54:10,583
kids anyway. So it's like I think you're

1704
01:54:10,583 --> 01:54:11,958
what you're the way you pose it, Chris.

1705
01:54:11,958 --> 01:54:14,458
Really interesting. But yeah, I just my

1706
01:54:14,458 --> 01:54:15,166
only thing would be just

1707
01:54:15,166 --> 01:54:16,458
come up with a new script.

1708
01:54:16,458 --> 01:54:18,916
Just make it completely different. More

1709
01:54:18,916 --> 01:54:20,125
more. Make it more contemporary.

1710
01:54:20,500 --> 01:54:22,541
Don't try to take 50 years ago and then

1711
01:54:22,541 --> 01:54:24,833
retell it. Don't don't retell the story.

1712
01:54:24,833 --> 01:54:26,791
Come up with a new script, which I don't

1713
01:54:26,791 --> 01:54:27,416
think they seem to do

1714
01:54:27,416 --> 01:54:28,458
that very much in Hollywood.

1715
01:54:28,458 --> 01:54:29,625
It's like, well, this now take the same.

1716
01:54:29,666 --> 01:54:30,125
It's like, well, this now take the same.

1717
01:54:30,833 --> 01:54:33,166
It's yeah, this do what fits, you know,

1718
01:54:33,416 --> 01:54:34,833
or or you go over the top

1719
01:54:34,833 --> 01:54:35,958
like the Sharknado movies.

1720
01:54:37,125 --> 01:54:38,458
Yeah. Yeah.

1721
01:54:38,458 --> 01:54:41,541
Well, if if if if they did it, if they

1722
01:54:41,541 --> 01:54:45,041
redid it another Jaws, what science would

1723
01:54:45,041 --> 01:54:47,666
you want to see in there that you think

1724
01:54:47,666 --> 01:54:50,500
people should know about a great white or

1725
01:54:50,500 --> 01:54:52,166
even another shark, another type of shark

1726
01:54:52,166 --> 01:54:55,125
that you think that people would get a

1727
01:54:55,125 --> 01:54:56,333
blast out of and you

1728
01:54:56,333 --> 01:54:56,625
think they should know?

1729
01:54:57,666 --> 01:55:00,958
That's a good question because the

1730
01:55:00,958 --> 01:55:03,500
science I do most people could care less

1731
01:55:03,500 --> 01:55:06,791
about. It's not exciting to watch.

1732
01:55:06,791 --> 01:55:07,583
Except for the people in this room.

1733
01:55:09,666 --> 01:55:13,166
But you could bring that in to a

1734
01:55:13,166 --> 01:55:15,208
discussion when you're talking about the

1735
01:55:15,208 --> 01:55:17,500
shark, you know, they get this older.

1736
01:55:18,125 --> 01:55:20,000
They eat something besides license plates

1737
01:55:20,000 --> 01:55:20,625
or they have this many pups.

1738
01:55:20,666 --> 01:55:24,416
You know, you can bring that into the to

1739
01:55:24,416 --> 01:55:26,416
the dialogue. And they kind

1740
01:55:26,416 --> 01:55:27,875
of did that a little bit with.

1741
01:55:29,666 --> 01:55:33,666
Lorraine was reading Ellis's book.

1742
01:55:34,791 --> 01:55:36,333
They tried to put in a little bit of

1743
01:55:36,333 --> 01:55:38,291
knowledge on the shark in Jaws.

1744
01:55:38,666 --> 01:55:41,625
So I think, you know, putting in some of

1745
01:55:41,625 --> 01:55:43,375
these things that we do know now that we

1746
01:55:43,375 --> 01:55:46,083
didn't know before, to a degree, the age,

1747
01:55:46,083 --> 01:55:47,458
the reproduction, this kind of thing, the

1748
01:55:47,458 --> 01:55:49,666
migration routes, I think would be.

1749
01:55:50,916 --> 01:55:52,250
You know, easily done.

1750
01:55:53,708 --> 01:55:56,458
But to put in like somebody reading a

1751
01:55:56,458 --> 01:55:57,458
shark vertebra, I

1752
01:55:57,458 --> 01:55:59,208
think would not do well.

1753
01:56:00,875 --> 01:56:03,458
People don't know you got CSI nowadays,

1754
01:56:03,666 --> 01:56:04,583
right? You can see the

1755
01:56:04,583 --> 01:56:06,083
crap out of that, right?

1756
01:56:06,708 --> 01:56:09,375
Funny story along those lines. So 20

1757
01:56:09,375 --> 01:56:11,500
years ago, they were shooting a TV show

1758
01:56:11,500 --> 01:56:14,041
in my lab called Sharks One. It was made

1759
01:56:14,041 --> 01:56:15,625
for made for TV movie. Right.

1760
01:56:16,625 --> 01:56:19,041
And it was like John Snyder and the guy

1761
01:56:19,041 --> 01:56:21,416
from on the gas, real actors. Right. And

1762
01:56:21,416 --> 01:56:22,375
they were using my lab

1763
01:56:22,375 --> 01:56:23,666
because it was a traditional shark.

1764
01:56:24,583 --> 01:56:27,041
And the sharks were going crazy. And, you

1765
01:56:27,041 --> 01:56:28,833
know, they had some brain disorder or

1766
01:56:28,833 --> 01:56:29,583
something. So they had a

1767
01:56:29,583 --> 01:56:31,000
mechanical shark in the lab.

1768
01:56:31,875 --> 01:56:32,916
And, you know, they were filming in the

1769
01:56:32,916 --> 01:56:34,291
lab and they were talking about how they

1770
01:56:34,291 --> 01:56:36,083
were going to kill these crazy sharks.

1771
01:56:36,916 --> 01:56:38,875
And I was laughing. Well, I'm in my

1772
01:56:38,875 --> 01:56:40,708
office while they're filming. And I'm

1773
01:56:40,708 --> 01:56:42,791
laughing. I'm like, this is like the

1774
01:56:42,791 --> 01:56:43,625
stupidest thing I've ever heard.

1775
01:56:43,666 --> 01:56:45,833
So they go cut cut and they get the

1776
01:56:45,833 --> 01:56:47,500
writers and they say, can you spend like

1777
01:56:47,500 --> 01:56:49,458
half an hour with our writers to try to

1778
01:56:49,458 --> 01:56:51,500
help them science this up a bit?

1779
01:56:51,875 --> 01:56:53,583
So they're talking about these guns that

1780
01:56:53,583 --> 01:56:55,083
the underwater guns are going to use to

1781
01:56:55,083 --> 01:56:56,875
stun the sharks. I'm like,

1782
01:56:56,875 --> 01:56:58,625
what are you talking about?

1783
01:56:59,083 --> 01:57:00,958
So they were asking about just basic

1784
01:57:00,958 --> 01:57:02,458
sensory biology. What do we know about

1785
01:57:02,458 --> 01:57:04,125
the senses of sharks? You know, how can

1786
01:57:04,125 --> 01:57:05,375
you shock a shark or

1787
01:57:05,375 --> 01:57:06,625
shoot a shark underwater?

1788
01:57:06,666 --> 01:57:09,291
And after half an hour, I finally gave

1789
01:57:09,291 --> 01:57:10,875
up. I'm like, forget it. These guys are

1790
01:57:10,875 --> 01:57:12,500
like, no, none of those ideas work.

1791
01:57:12,500 --> 01:57:14,500
That's too sciencey. And I'm thinking,

1792
01:57:14,500 --> 01:57:17,208
oh, my God, it's just it's basic science.

1793
01:57:17,208 --> 01:57:18,875
That's all. Yeah. You guys just need to

1794
01:57:18,875 --> 01:57:22,083
put one one ounce of science into this

1795
01:57:22,083 --> 01:57:24,458
thing. They're like, no, it's got to be

1796
01:57:24,458 --> 01:57:27,083
more exciting than that. I'm like, OK.

1797
01:57:27,625 --> 01:57:29,791
So it was just funny to watch. Right.

1798
01:57:30,375 --> 01:57:32,000
Whoever wrote the script clearly knew

1799
01:57:32,000 --> 01:57:33,625
nothing about sharks. Right. Yeah.

1800
01:57:33,666 --> 01:57:35,666
And the producer and the director was

1801
01:57:35,666 --> 01:57:38,500
like, I don't know if this works. So it

1802
01:57:38,500 --> 01:57:42,875
was just that was my only delving into a

1803
01:57:42,875 --> 01:57:44,625
movie making sort of experience.

1804
01:57:45,083 --> 01:57:48,000
And I thought they could really benefit

1805
01:57:48,000 --> 01:57:48,916
from having you

1806
01:57:48,916 --> 01:57:51,625
there. Right. Basic terms.

1807
01:57:52,666 --> 01:57:55,458
I think I think I think if they want to

1808
01:57:55,458 --> 01:57:56,500
make it more realistic, if you remember

1809
01:57:56,500 --> 01:57:58,625
the original Jaws, there's a point where

1810
01:57:58,625 --> 01:58:03,458
the Roy Schneider character is talking to

1811
01:58:03,458 --> 01:58:06,000
the Hooper character.

1812
01:58:06,000 --> 01:58:08,000
And he's like, are you rich? He goes,

1813
01:58:08,500 --> 01:58:12,833
yeah. So I think so. So so to sort of

1814
01:58:12,833 --> 01:58:14,000
like, yes, so to like kind of make it

1815
01:58:14,000 --> 01:58:15,875
realistic, you should have the Hooper

1816
01:58:15,875 --> 01:58:17,958
character is like a homeless guy living

1817
01:58:17,958 --> 01:58:20,458
in a tent who's got a PhD in

1818
01:58:20,458 --> 01:58:20,666
postdoc and marine biology.

1819
01:58:21,666 --> 01:58:24,000
And he just gets out of his homeless tent

1820
01:58:24,000 --> 01:58:25,625
and goes down to the thing to go out to

1821
01:58:25,625 --> 01:58:27,000
tag sharks. And he goes back to his

1822
01:58:27,000 --> 01:58:29,208
homeless encampment just to make just to

1823
01:58:29,208 --> 01:58:32,166
put the realistic touch on the on the.

1824
01:58:32,666 --> 01:58:36,000
I just I just built a talk because of the

1825
01:58:36,000 --> 01:58:40,250
50th anniversary debunking a lot of the

1826
01:58:40,250 --> 01:58:44,208
film and mostly showing what Matt Hooper

1827
01:58:44,208 --> 01:58:47,083
got wrong. You know, I mean, from the

1828
01:58:47,083 --> 01:58:50,000
species name to to all

1829
01:58:50,000 --> 01:58:50,666
these other elements.

1830
01:58:51,666 --> 01:58:52,666
And the

1831
01:59:21,958 --> 01:59:22,750
Oh yeah, yeah.

1832
01:59:22,750 --> 01:59:24,625
Yeah, it's gotta be a horror movie.

1833
01:59:25,208 --> 01:59:26,291
Yeah, you gotta be over the,

1834
01:59:26,291 --> 01:59:27,666
well, I think that was the attraction

1835
01:59:27,666 --> 01:59:29,041
of the whole Sharknado thing,

1836
01:59:29,041 --> 01:59:30,000
which it was so over the

1837
01:59:30,000 --> 01:59:32,041
top with people that you just,

1838
01:59:32,625 --> 01:59:34,500
I mean, I've had people like,

1839
01:59:35,000 --> 01:59:36,041
maybe you guys have had the experience,

1840
01:59:36,041 --> 01:59:37,250
they're like, how could you watch it?

1841
01:59:37,250 --> 01:59:37,958
And I go, well, my lab

1842
01:59:37,958 --> 01:59:39,291
gets together every year,

1843
01:59:39,625 --> 01:59:40,666
has pizza and beer and

1844
01:59:40,666 --> 01:59:42,208
watches Sharknado when it comes out.

1845
01:59:42,208 --> 01:59:44,750
It's the most funniest thing we ever see.

1846
01:59:44,791 --> 01:59:46,750
It's an entertaining, and the only cheer

1847
01:59:46,750 --> 01:59:47,916
for the sharks, like

1848
01:59:47,916 --> 01:59:49,083
where they're gonna end up,

1849
01:59:49,125 --> 01:59:50,958
or I just think, yeah,

1850
01:59:50,958 --> 01:59:51,875
it was very well done.

1851
01:59:52,541 --> 01:59:54,708
For like a budget of like 60,000 or

1852
01:59:54,708 --> 01:59:55,541
something like that,

1853
01:59:55,541 --> 01:59:57,125
it was something ridiculous like that.

1854
01:59:57,500 --> 01:59:58,958
Well, the thing is, it's

1855
01:59:58,958 --> 02:00:00,416
so over the top, it's campy.

1856
02:00:00,416 --> 02:00:01,875
You just gotta laugh at it.

1857
02:00:01,875 --> 02:00:02,625
There's nothing in there

1858
02:00:02,625 --> 02:00:04,333
that you're gonna take away

1859
02:00:04,375 --> 02:00:05,833
seriously in the whole thing.

1860
02:00:06,958 --> 02:00:07,291
Another thing.

1861
02:00:08,041 --> 02:00:10,083
So yeah, one other thing

1862
02:00:10,083 --> 02:00:11,000
I wanted to mention too,

1863
02:00:11,000 --> 02:00:13,750
I thought all of us, we started out like,

1864
02:00:14,125 --> 02:00:15,041
started doing sharks, we

1865
02:00:15,041 --> 02:00:15,916
all worked on everything,

1866
02:00:15,916 --> 02:00:17,083
but pretty much white sharks,

1867
02:00:17,125 --> 02:00:18,416
except for that little

1868
02:00:18,416 --> 02:00:20,875
side tour Lisa and I had

1869
02:00:20,875 --> 02:00:22,375
with white shark age and growth.

1870
02:00:23,625 --> 02:00:24,500
I think, I don't know

1871
02:00:24,500 --> 02:00:25,500
what you're feeling is,

1872
02:00:25,500 --> 02:00:26,375
but it seems like today,

1873
02:00:27,166 --> 02:00:28,291
because of social media,

1874
02:00:28,291 --> 02:00:29,958
a lot more people are focused on the big,

1875
02:00:29,958 --> 02:00:31,833
like the white sharks, the tiger sharks,

1876
02:00:32,541 --> 02:00:33,666
because they wanna have that

1877
02:00:33,666 --> 02:00:37,041
clip on their social media,

1878
02:00:37,375 --> 02:00:38,291
and they've gotten away

1879
02:00:38,291 --> 02:00:39,458
from where we all worked

1880
02:00:39,458 --> 02:00:42,875
on different species in the 80s and 90s,

1881
02:00:43,291 --> 02:00:44,791
to now it's becoming more focused

1882
02:00:44,791 --> 02:00:46,958
on just the big toothy sharks.

1883
02:00:47,333 --> 02:00:48,250
Is that kind of your experience?

1884
02:00:48,791 --> 02:00:50,625
You know, kind of isn't even that, Dave.

1885
02:00:51,000 --> 02:00:52,000
We worked great and I,

1886
02:00:52,000 --> 02:00:52,833
we did age and growth.

1887
02:00:53,458 --> 02:00:54,250
We just had to do age

1888
02:00:54,250 --> 02:00:55,083
and growth on sharks,

1889
02:00:55,291 --> 02:00:57,333
which is the species we wanted to target.

1890
02:00:57,541 --> 02:00:58,416
We were very lucky to

1891
02:00:58,416 --> 02:00:59,416
make careers out of that,

1892
02:00:59,958 --> 02:01:02,291
but we were really doing age and growth,

1893
02:01:02,291 --> 02:01:03,500
reproduction, Nancy was

1894
02:01:03,500 --> 02:01:05,333
doing food habits, migrations.

1895
02:01:06,000 --> 02:01:06,791
It just happened to

1896
02:01:06,791 --> 02:01:08,583
be on sharks, you know,

1897
02:01:09,125 --> 02:01:10,833
and all different species,

1898
02:01:10,833 --> 02:01:11,416
whatever we had

1899
02:01:11,416 --> 02:01:12,708
enough samples to work on.

1900
02:01:13,500 --> 02:01:15,583
I mean, I'm not like those guys.

1901
02:01:15,625 --> 02:01:17,291
I don't work on white

1902
02:01:17,291 --> 02:01:18,416
sharks, quote unquote,

1903
02:01:18,916 --> 02:01:20,625
but I have done papers

1904
02:01:20,625 --> 02:01:22,458
on white sharks with Greg,

1905
02:01:24,333 --> 02:01:25,500
but I wouldn't say I work

1906
02:01:25,500 --> 02:01:27,166
on white sharks, you know?

1907
02:01:27,791 --> 02:01:31,166
And so I totally agree with you.

1908
02:01:31,166 --> 02:01:32,750
There's a totally different way of

1909
02:01:32,750 --> 02:01:33,833
looking at things now.

1910
02:01:34,500 --> 02:01:35,625
And when I talk to the kids,

1911
02:01:35,625 --> 02:01:37,625
I tell them find something you like to do

1912
02:01:37,625 --> 02:01:38,833
and do it on the sharks,

1913
02:01:38,833 --> 02:01:41,291
and then you can also find a job and do

1914
02:01:41,291 --> 02:01:42,000
it on something else

1915
02:01:42,000 --> 02:01:42,916
when you can't find a

1916
02:01:42,916 --> 02:01:43,958
job doing it on a chart.

1917
02:01:45,083 --> 02:01:45,416
Yeah.

1918
02:01:46,708 --> 02:01:47,166
Yeah.

1919
02:01:47,500 --> 02:01:49,333
Well, it's more the

1920
02:01:49,333 --> 02:01:50,875
skills, it's more the skill set

1921
02:01:50,875 --> 02:01:52,333
that young people should be learning,

1922
02:01:52,583 --> 02:01:53,791
not the species not

1923
02:01:53,791 --> 02:01:54,416
going to be as important,

1924
02:01:54,666 --> 02:01:56,375
but I just see that there's been a like a

1925
02:01:56,375 --> 02:01:57,708
shift away from words.

1926
02:01:57,708 --> 02:01:59,583
We had a lot of different

1927
02:01:59,583 --> 02:02:01,125
species that we worked on

1928
02:02:01,583 --> 02:02:02,916
when we were graduate students,

1929
02:02:02,916 --> 02:02:04,041
and it seemed like there just is kind of

1930
02:02:04,041 --> 02:02:05,458
a bit of a shift away from it

1931
02:02:05,458 --> 02:02:07,833
because of the appeal on

1932
02:02:07,833 --> 02:02:09,541
how, you know, you see, I had--

1933
02:02:10,000 --> 02:02:10,583
mechanisms as well.

1934
02:02:10,625 --> 02:02:10,833
Yeah.

1935
02:02:11,250 --> 02:02:12,458
I had a discussion with

1936
02:02:12,458 --> 02:02:13,166
somebody here recently.

1937
02:02:13,916 --> 02:02:16,666
I think it was on the AAS website about

1938
02:02:16,666 --> 02:02:20,500
the people on social media.

1939
02:02:20,500 --> 02:02:21,708
You see these pictures, these guys

1940
02:02:21,708 --> 02:02:23,000
swimming up to tiger sharks,

1941
02:02:23,000 --> 02:02:25,041
petting them on the nose or swimming next

1942
02:02:25,041 --> 02:02:26,458
to white sharks and holding the fin.

1943
02:02:26,833 --> 02:02:28,666
I mean, that's just like an

1944
02:02:28,666 --> 02:02:30,166
accident waiting to happen.

1945
02:02:30,208 --> 02:02:30,416
Mm-hmm.

1946
02:02:30,708 --> 02:02:32,708
And, you know, the person in

1947
02:02:32,708 --> 02:02:34,166
there might get away with it,

1948
02:02:34,833 --> 02:02:36,250
but other people start,

1949
02:02:36,458 --> 02:02:37,583
you know, they're not--

1950
02:02:37,583 --> 02:02:38,541
don't have any experience with sharks.

1951
02:02:38,750 --> 02:02:39,541
They're like, "Oh, I'm just going to go

1952
02:02:39,541 --> 02:02:40,791
swim up to that tiger shark

1953
02:02:40,791 --> 02:02:41,666
or that white shark and--

1954
02:02:42,500 --> 02:02:43,500
Or even nurse sharks.

1955
02:02:43,750 --> 02:02:45,166
People have been, quote

1956
02:02:45,166 --> 02:02:47,125
unquote, bitten by nurse sharks.

1957
02:02:47,666 --> 02:02:48,000
Yeah.

1958
02:02:48,041 --> 02:02:49,500
Or sardine, I guess. I don't know.

1959
02:02:49,833 --> 02:02:51,375
They wait with it till they don't.

1960
02:02:51,416 --> 02:02:52,250
Right, right.

1961
02:02:52,500 --> 02:02:52,708
Exactly.

1962
02:02:52,958 --> 02:02:53,291
Who is that?

1963
02:02:53,541 --> 02:02:53,916
Ocean Ramsey.

1964
02:02:54,250 --> 02:02:56,458
I mean, she sets a very poor example, and

1965
02:02:56,458 --> 02:02:57,791
one of these days she's going to get her

1966
02:02:57,791 --> 02:02:58,750
head bitten off and--

1967
02:02:59,875 --> 02:02:59,916
Mm-hmm.

1968
02:03:00,041 --> 02:03:00,250
Yeah.

1969
02:03:00,500 --> 02:03:01,166
And if you had--

1970
02:03:02,125 --> 02:03:03,916
So, David, it's kind of interesting

1971
02:03:03,916 --> 02:03:05,333
because I just finished teaching my

1972
02:03:05,333 --> 02:03:06,583
Alazan-ranked biology class,

1973
02:03:06,666 --> 02:03:08,666
and I end with conservation.

1974
02:03:08,666 --> 02:03:10,666
And a lot of the students want to go into

1975
02:03:10,666 --> 02:03:12,166
shark conservation, right?

1976
02:03:12,166 --> 02:03:13,291
And I always ask them, "What is

1977
02:03:13,291 --> 02:03:14,250
conservation?" Right?

1978
02:03:14,291 --> 02:03:14,500
Yeah.

1979
02:03:14,833 --> 02:03:18,000
So, and the interesting thing is they go,

1980
02:03:18,000 --> 02:03:18,625
"I just want to be

1981
02:03:18,625 --> 02:03:20,041
known for doing something

1982
02:03:20,041 --> 02:03:20,750
that was important

1983
02:03:20,750 --> 02:03:21,625
for conserving sharks."

1984
02:03:22,375 --> 02:03:23,541
And then I go, "Well,

1985
02:03:23,541 --> 02:03:24,375
you know what you could do?

1986
02:03:24,750 --> 02:03:26,416
You could do aging growth, reproduction,

1987
02:03:26,791 --> 02:03:27,833
or diet of some of

1988
02:03:27,833 --> 02:03:29,333
these less-known species."

1989
02:03:29,333 --> 02:03:31,458
And they're like, "But I'm not using

1990
02:03:31,458 --> 02:03:33,000
cutting-edge tools. You don't need to."

1991
02:03:34,250 --> 02:03:35,125
All these stock assessments

1992
02:03:35,125 --> 02:03:36,666
that tell us where a stock is,

1993
02:03:36,666 --> 02:03:38,541
they're all listed as

1994
02:03:38,541 --> 02:03:39,958
data-deficient. Why?

1995
02:03:40,291 --> 02:03:41,041
Because nobody wants to

1996
02:03:41,041 --> 02:03:41,916
do that anymore. Right.

1997
02:03:42,291 --> 02:03:42,500
Right.

1998
02:03:43,000 --> 02:03:43,708
People need to do that

1999
02:03:43,708 --> 02:03:45,208
because that's the only way.

2000
02:03:45,500 --> 02:03:47,208
We will know if the things we're doing

2001
02:03:47,208 --> 02:03:47,875
are actually helping.

2002
02:03:48,333 --> 02:03:48,541
Yeah.

2003
02:03:48,541 --> 02:03:50,083
So, these students all think today you

2004
02:03:50,083 --> 02:03:50,833
have to be using the

2005
02:03:50,833 --> 02:03:52,041
most cutting-edge tool,

2006
02:03:52,291 --> 02:03:53,583
and it has to be fancy and

2007
02:03:53,583 --> 02:03:55,625
expensive, and I'm like, "Nope."

2008
02:03:55,958 --> 02:03:56,166
Yeah.

2009
02:03:56,500 --> 02:03:57,791
Do you really want to make a difference?

2010
02:03:58,583 --> 02:03:59,291
It's the foundation.

2011
02:03:59,583 --> 02:03:59,916
Right.

2012
02:03:59,916 --> 02:04:00,541
I just think you got to do the

2013
02:04:00,541 --> 02:04:01,083
foundational

2014
02:04:01,083 --> 02:04:01,666
information about the sharks.

2015
02:04:02,333 --> 02:04:04,083
I just tell them, "Find something that

2016
02:04:04,083 --> 02:04:05,458
nobody else is doing anything on,

2017
02:04:05,458 --> 02:04:08,208
and become the expert on that species."

2018
02:04:08,583 --> 02:04:10,791
That's, you know, I mean, I think another

2019
02:04:10,791 --> 02:04:11,458
thing, too, is like,

2020
02:04:11,958 --> 02:04:12,750
when we're all kind of

2021
02:04:12,750 --> 02:04:14,291
started out in our careers, I mean,

2022
02:04:14,666 --> 02:04:16,208
I know Lisa and I, like,

2023
02:04:16,208 --> 02:04:17,250
when we were grad students,

2024
02:04:17,250 --> 02:04:18,875
we were like up to our elbows and like

2025
02:04:18,875 --> 02:04:19,666
shark guts all the

2026
02:04:19,666 --> 02:04:20,958
time doing knee-cropsies.

2027
02:04:21,500 --> 02:04:23,750
I mean, Lisa and I have talked about it.

2028
02:04:23,750 --> 02:04:24,500
I mean, I can't tell

2029
02:04:24,500 --> 02:04:26,208
you how many thousands of,

2030
02:04:26,208 --> 02:04:28,166
tens of thousands of sharks and rays and

2031
02:04:28,166 --> 02:04:28,666
stuff I've gone through.

2032
02:04:28,666 --> 02:04:32,416
But I learned a hell of a lot, and I know

2033
02:04:32,416 --> 02:04:33,500
you guys did as well,

2034
02:04:34,291 --> 02:04:35,458
and I don't think a lot of

2035
02:04:35,458 --> 02:04:37,458
people do that these days.

2036
02:04:37,666 --> 02:04:38,833
You know, you got to get like an ayah

2037
02:04:38,833 --> 02:04:40,000
cook, you got to get a whole bunch of

2038
02:04:40,000 --> 02:04:41,125
permits to do whatever,

2039
02:04:41,125 --> 02:04:45,458
and I think that, I think they're losing

2040
02:04:45,458 --> 02:04:47,291
out a lot in a lot of information,

2041
02:04:47,291 --> 02:04:50,083
just basic biology that nobody else, you

2042
02:04:50,083 --> 02:04:51,208
know, nobody else is getting.

2043
02:04:51,208 --> 02:04:52,000
If you have that, you know,

2044
02:04:52,000 --> 02:04:54,541
that's a real miss, I think.

2045
02:04:55,333 --> 02:04:55,708
Mm-hmm.

2046
02:04:56,166 --> 02:04:56,458
Yeah.

2047
02:04:57,375 --> 02:04:57,666
I agree.

2048
02:04:58,458 --> 02:04:58,625
Yeah.

2049
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:00,208
So.

2050
02:05:00,625 --> 02:05:02,083
Well, I'll tell you what, this is, this

2051
02:05:02,083 --> 02:05:04,833
has been amazing to be able to chat with

2052
02:05:04,833 --> 02:05:05,500
all of you guys for,

2053
02:05:06,250 --> 02:05:08,000
personally, for me, this is amazing.

2054
02:05:08,000 --> 02:05:10,000
You guys are legends in the shark world,

2055
02:05:10,625 --> 02:05:12,750
and I know a lot of people are going to

2056
02:05:12,750 --> 02:05:13,458
want to hear what you

2057
02:05:13,458 --> 02:05:14,416
have to say about Jaws

2058
02:05:14,416 --> 02:05:16,875
and just about, you know, the field of

2059
02:05:16,875 --> 02:05:18,708
where it was, where it is now.

2060
02:05:19,416 --> 02:05:20,958
And even just, you know, telling people

2061
02:05:20,958 --> 02:05:23,083
to just do the, sometimes the simple

2062
02:05:23,083 --> 02:05:26,041
things to be able to get the research and

2063
02:05:26,041 --> 02:05:26,666
get the knowledge on,

2064
02:05:26,666 --> 02:05:29,000
on the different sharks and so forth.

2065
02:05:29,000 --> 02:05:30,875
It doesn't always have to be what people

2066
02:05:30,875 --> 02:05:32,916
think, quote unquote, is the sexy science

2067
02:05:32,916 --> 02:05:34,416
that we all, you know,

2068
02:05:34,416 --> 02:05:35,500
know and love and stuff.

2069
02:05:35,750 --> 02:05:36,791
But just the foundational

2070
02:05:36,791 --> 02:05:38,583
stuff needs to be done too.

2071
02:05:38,791 --> 02:05:40,875
But this, I'll tell you, you know, Dave

2072
02:05:40,875 --> 02:05:42,333
and I started talking about this when

2073
02:05:42,333 --> 02:05:43,333
Dave suggested, I was like,

2074
02:05:43,333 --> 02:05:44,625
this is, this has got to happen.

2075
02:05:44,625 --> 02:05:46,166
And you guys were on board right away.

2076
02:05:46,833 --> 02:05:48,583
Yeah. Really want to thank you, not only for

2077
02:05:48,583 --> 02:05:49,875
coming out today, but you guys have been

2078
02:05:49,875 --> 02:05:51,125
on the show multiple times.

2079
02:05:51,125 --> 02:05:53,541
We really appreciate the support and all

2080
02:05:53,541 --> 02:05:54,708
the contributions you've

2081
02:05:54,708 --> 02:05:55,666
made over time, including Dave.

2082
02:05:55,666 --> 02:05:58,083
I mean, this is, like I said, this is,

2083
02:05:58,083 --> 02:05:59,125
this is surreal for me.

2084
02:05:59,125 --> 02:06:01,375
So, so thank you so much for joining us.

2085
02:06:01,708 --> 02:06:03,000
We definitely appreciate it.

2086
02:06:04,041 --> 02:06:05,750
Thank you for having us.

2087
02:06:05,833 --> 02:06:07,083
Yeah, thanks for having us.

2088
02:06:07,083 --> 02:06:08,500
It's great to hang out with these guys.

2089
02:06:10,083 --> 02:06:12,625
And now after I, after I press stop,

2090
02:06:12,625 --> 02:06:14,583
we'll talk even more and then we'll be

2091
02:06:14,583 --> 02:06:16,000
like, we should have recorded this.

2092
02:06:16,416 --> 02:06:20,666
Appreciate it.

2093
02:06:20,666 --> 02:06:21,333
Thanks.

2094
02:06:22,208 --> 02:06:24,083
Thank you everybody for joining us on

2095
02:06:24,083 --> 02:06:25,458
today's episode of

2096
02:06:25,458 --> 02:06:26,458
the Beyond Jaws podcast.

2097
02:06:27,000 --> 02:06:28,708
It was great to have this, this guest, as

2098
02:06:28,708 --> 02:06:30,666
I mentioned at the end of this interview,

2099
02:06:31,250 --> 02:06:33,541
it's such an honor to be in

2100
02:06:33,541 --> 02:06:35,125
the presence of this panel.

2101
02:06:35,125 --> 02:06:37,833
You know, there's so many years between

2102
02:06:37,833 --> 02:06:40,250
amongst all of you of, of shark science,

2103
02:06:40,250 --> 02:06:42,375
of fun stories that you've had together.

2104
02:06:42,375 --> 02:06:44,375
Obviously you've been friends for a long

2105
02:06:44,375 --> 02:06:46,333
time, but being able to talk about Jaws

2106
02:06:46,333 --> 02:06:48,666
at a point where some of you were there

2107
02:06:48,666 --> 02:06:49,666
when the, the, the release of the movie.

2108
02:06:50,666 --> 02:06:53,250
And then if not watching it later on and

2109
02:06:53,250 --> 02:06:55,333
being part of shark research during that

2110
02:06:55,333 --> 02:06:58,000
time, advancing, Dave, even you talking

2111
02:06:58,000 --> 02:07:00,208
about at least in your first paper on

2112
02:07:00,208 --> 02:07:02,666
aging and growth of, of white sharks.

2113
02:07:03,750 --> 02:07:05,791
It's amazing just to see how far we've

2114
02:07:05,791 --> 02:07:07,625
become and where everybody was at when

2115
02:07:07,625 --> 02:07:09,375
the, when the, when you sort of like,

2116
02:07:09,375 --> 02:07:10,875
were part of that pioneering

2117
02:07:10,875 --> 02:07:12,666
investigations and studies.

2118
02:07:12,666 --> 02:07:15,500
It's just a lot of fun going back in

2119
02:07:15,500 --> 02:07:18,333
time. What, what was this like, you know,

2120
02:07:18,333 --> 02:07:20,416
reminiscing and, and on the stories of

2121
02:07:20,416 --> 02:07:22,666
Jaws as well as some of the fun stories

2122
02:07:22,666 --> 02:07:23,875
that you all had together.

2123
02:07:23,875 --> 02:07:25,458
You shared together. What was it like for

2124
02:07:25,458 --> 02:07:26,333
you for this interview?

2125
02:07:26,333 --> 02:07:28,083
It was, it was, it was fun. We wanted to

2126
02:07:28,083 --> 02:07:29,750
say, we all kind of came up together.

2127
02:07:29,750 --> 02:07:30,875
There's a, there's definitely, there's a

2128
02:07:30,875 --> 02:07:32,333
few more people I could have added to

2129
02:07:32,333 --> 02:07:32,958
the, to the mix

2130
02:07:32,958 --> 02:07:34,083
there, but we all came up.

2131
02:07:34,291 --> 02:07:36,291
We all kind of came up together. And as I

2132
02:07:36,291 --> 02:07:37,791
say, Lisa and I literally started, we're

2133
02:07:37,791 --> 02:07:39,416
in the same lab together at Moss landing

2134
02:07:39,416 --> 02:07:41,541
Marine Laboratories under Greg Kye.

2135
02:07:41,666 --> 02:07:44,333
And Chris Lowe did his master's with Don

2136
02:07:44,333 --> 02:07:47,333
Nelson. Um, and then, uh, Greg Sculm will

2137
02:07:47,333 --> 02:07:49,625
work with, uh, Jack Casey, who was

2138
02:07:49,625 --> 02:07:51,666
involved in Lisa and a Tansen's PhD later

2139
02:07:51,666 --> 02:07:53,875
on when she went to do her PhD.

2140
02:07:54,166 --> 02:07:56,208
But it was just such a literally like a

2141
02:07:56,208 --> 02:07:59,458
reminiscing down, down memory lane. And I

2142
02:07:59,458 --> 02:08:01,875
give a shout out to, uh, Greg Sculm's

2143
02:08:01,875 --> 02:08:04,041
book, chasing shadows, which talks about

2144
02:08:04,041 --> 02:08:06,250
the early days there when, uh, follows

2145
02:08:06,250 --> 02:08:08,916
his early career and kind of, he really

2146
02:08:08,916 --> 02:08:10,666
did a good job at capturing that era.

2147
02:08:11,666 --> 02:08:13,500
And I think, and, and, and something that

2148
02:08:13,500 --> 02:08:16,208
I've tried to mention too is like, it was

2149
02:08:16,208 --> 02:08:18,541
such a dynamic time. Cause like anything

2150
02:08:18,541 --> 02:08:20,500
was possible. Really. You could just

2151
02:08:20,500 --> 02:08:21,875
literally, if you could think of an idea,

2152
02:08:22,500 --> 02:08:25,333
you know, our, our professors and mentors

2153
02:08:25,333 --> 02:08:26,583
were kind of like, sure, go try it.

2154
02:08:26,583 --> 02:08:28,791
You know, cause they had literally, it

2155
02:08:28,791 --> 02:08:29,708
was, it was great because

2156
02:08:29,708 --> 02:08:31,250
you don't often get that today.

2157
02:08:31,250 --> 02:08:33,166
Like the wild, wild west of the ocean and

2158
02:08:33,166 --> 02:08:33,666
the shark science, right?

2159
02:08:33,708 --> 02:08:35,500
Literally it was. And we worked, you

2160
02:08:35,500 --> 02:08:37,458
know, I look back to, we really, at that

2161
02:08:37,458 --> 02:08:39,125
time we worked at all kinds of tax. It

2162
02:08:39,125 --> 02:08:40,583
wasn't just white sharks. We worked on a

2163
02:08:40,583 --> 02:08:44,083
lot of, a lot of different species, uh,

2164
02:08:44,083 --> 02:08:46,166
uh, just a diversity of things as well.

2165
02:08:46,166 --> 02:08:47,458
And of course, white sharks were part of

2166
02:08:47,458 --> 02:08:49,125
them, but it wasn't like today where it

2167
02:08:49,125 --> 02:08:50,500
seemed like every other person's working

2168
02:08:50,500 --> 02:08:51,666
on white sharks to one degree or another.

2169
02:08:51,666 --> 02:08:55,916
And, uh, and so, and yeah, so we had like

2170
02:08:55,916 --> 02:08:58,125
the other thing to touch on too, is there

2171
02:08:58,125 --> 02:09:01,083
was no people today are very tuned into

2172
02:09:01,083 --> 02:09:03,208
the whole conservation thing, but there

2173
02:09:03,208 --> 02:09:05,458
was no feel the conservation at the time.

2174
02:09:05,458 --> 02:09:06,708
Well, you didn't know any information on

2175
02:09:06,708 --> 02:09:07,875
them. Really? If you think about it,

2176
02:09:07,875 --> 02:09:09,083
right? You need information for

2177
02:09:09,083 --> 02:09:11,375
conservation. It revolved around two

2178
02:09:11,375 --> 02:09:13,666
areas. One was fisheries. And then

2179
02:09:13,666 --> 02:09:15,666
another was just the general public's

2180
02:09:15,666 --> 02:09:17,291
interest in like, well, how many shark

2181
02:09:17,291 --> 02:09:17,666
species are there? And like, how big do they get? And how many? Yeah.

2182
02:09:18,666 --> 02:09:21,916
All those kinds of basic questions that

2183
02:09:21,916 --> 02:09:24,875
we, we had no answers to. And so it was

2184
02:09:24,875 --> 02:09:26,125
kind of like just the whole field was

2185
02:09:26,125 --> 02:09:29,583
just wide open for us at the time. Yeah.

2186
02:09:29,625 --> 02:09:30,916
And, uh, and so like, yeah, we're

2187
02:09:30,916 --> 02:09:32,458
definitely like, it was a, it was a

2188
02:09:32,458 --> 02:09:34,750
really, it was a dynamic time for us.

2189
02:09:34,958 --> 02:09:36,916
And, and all of us had a chance to meet

2190
02:09:36,916 --> 02:09:39,208
some real, you know, people that are,

2191
02:09:39,208 --> 02:09:40,750
they're very prominent in the field. You

2192
02:09:40,750 --> 02:09:42,291
know, many of, most of them have passed

2193
02:09:42,291 --> 02:09:44,625
away now, but you know, people like we

2194
02:09:44,625 --> 02:09:45,666
mentioned a conference Lisa and I went to in Fullerton, where we were, we were like, oh, I'm going to do this.

2195
02:09:45,708 --> 02:09:47,875
Lisa and I went to in Fullerton, we're

2196
02:09:47,875 --> 02:09:50,291
just like literally like 22, 23 years

2197
02:09:50,291 --> 02:09:52,166
old. And we met people like, you know,

2198
02:09:52,166 --> 02:09:55,500
Leonard Campagno and Don Nelson, you

2199
02:09:55,500 --> 02:09:59,208
know, and Jack Carey, Jack Casey, Frank

2200
02:09:59,208 --> 02:10:02,125
Carey and Jack Casey, just a whole number

2201
02:10:02,125 --> 02:10:03,500
of prominent guys that

2202
02:10:03,500 --> 02:10:04,666
are big names in the field.

2203
02:10:04,708 --> 02:10:09,000
And so young students, like we were, uh,

2204
02:10:09,000 --> 02:10:10,375
it was just as great and same with, you

2205
02:10:10,375 --> 02:10:12,500
know, Chris and, and, and Greg having

2206
02:10:12,500 --> 02:10:13,833
that great opportunity. And then of

2207
02:10:13,833 --> 02:10:16,208
course having this podcast now that we

2208
02:10:16,208 --> 02:10:18,500
can kind of riff back and forth about

2209
02:10:18,500 --> 02:10:20,833
some of this stuff. Um, like I said, if

2210
02:10:20,833 --> 02:10:22,250
you're a young person, you want to kind

2211
02:10:22,250 --> 02:10:24,666
of hear what it was like, um, from us. We

2212
02:10:24,666 --> 02:10:25,666
were, this was a great episode to listen to.

2213
02:10:26,666 --> 02:10:29,083
Absolutely. You know, it was a lot of

2214
02:10:29,083 --> 02:10:30,958
fun, a lot of fun to be a part of, uh,

2215
02:10:30,958 --> 02:10:32,583
and, and to watch you guys reminisce, it

2216
02:10:32,583 --> 02:10:34,208
was, it was a lot of fun. And to be able

2217
02:10:34,208 --> 02:10:36,375
to talk about the, you know, the big

2218
02:10:36,375 --> 02:10:39,333
influence it had good and bad on, on

2219
02:10:39,333 --> 02:10:41,583
sharks. And I think, um, you know, we, we

2220
02:10:41,583 --> 02:10:44,000
have a lot to thank for, uh, a lot to be

2221
02:10:44,000 --> 02:10:45,416
concerned about, but a lot to thank for,

2222
02:10:45,416 --> 02:10:48,000
uh, including like other shark horror

2223
02:10:48,000 --> 02:10:49,666
movies that have come out in the past and

2224
02:10:49,666 --> 02:10:51,083
have been like some of them that we

2225
02:10:51,083 --> 02:10:52,500
liked. And some of them were like, maybe

2226
02:10:52,500 --> 02:10:53,958
that's a little too far, a little too

2227
02:10:53,958 --> 02:10:54,666
grotesque or a little too good.

2228
02:10:54,708 --> 02:10:57,833
Again, sharks, but regardless, you know,

2229
02:10:57,833 --> 02:10:59,666
it's, it's, it's a lot of fun. Uh, as I

2230
02:10:59,666 --> 02:11:01,250
say this, have you seen the new one?

2231
02:11:01,458 --> 02:11:03,500
There's a new, uh, I think it's called, I

2232
02:11:03,500 --> 02:11:05,875
forget what it's called, but it's, um, a

2233
02:11:05,875 --> 02:11:08,125
guy who kidnaps people and feeds it to

2234
02:11:08,125 --> 02:11:09,875
the, feeds them to the sharks, like kid

2235
02:11:09,875 --> 02:11:11,291
next young people and feel, have you seen

2236
02:11:11,291 --> 02:11:13,250
that trailer? It's all over. No. Oh, I

2237
02:11:13,250 --> 02:11:15,000
have not seen that one. I miss that one.

2238
02:11:15,000 --> 02:11:17,416
I guess. Oh yeah. I forget what I think

2239
02:11:17,416 --> 02:11:19,000
it's called dangerous animals, but he

2240
02:11:19,000 --> 02:11:21,833
basically like brings them on his boat

2241
02:11:21,833 --> 02:11:23,666
and, and cow kidnaps them. And this is a movie.

2242
02:11:23,708 --> 02:11:26,500
It's fictional. As far as I know, it

2243
02:11:26,500 --> 02:11:28,708
looks off like it looks grotesque because

2244
02:11:28,708 --> 02:11:30,291
they just use sharks. It's like crazy

2245
02:11:30,291 --> 02:11:31,583
eating machines, but we'll see what

2246
02:11:31,583 --> 02:11:33,041
happens. I thought the one good thing

2247
02:11:33,041 --> 02:11:34,333
came out of it. The whole shark NATO

2248
02:11:34,333 --> 02:11:37,000
series, which I got exactly. I thought

2249
02:11:37,000 --> 02:11:39,333
that was just my, and I think people,

2250
02:11:39,333 --> 02:11:41,083
people that are not in the field, but you

2251
02:11:41,083 --> 02:11:43,416
know, like my lab, they loved it. We look

2252
02:11:43,416 --> 02:11:45,125
forward to it. We'd have like a beer and

2253
02:11:45,125 --> 02:11:46,875
pizza night and watch shark NATO. And it

2254
02:11:46,875 --> 02:11:48,791
was phenomenal. My only disappointment

2255
02:11:48,791 --> 02:11:50,750
was they never invited my lab to be on,

2256
02:11:50,750 --> 02:11:52,666
you know, have a camera. Perfect. One of the shark NATO series. Yeah.

2257
02:11:52,666 --> 02:11:54,166
One of the shark NATO series. I'd been,

2258
02:11:54,166 --> 02:11:56,333
I'd have been like my ultimate drop mic

2259
02:11:56,333 --> 02:11:58,666
moment for my career. So it's all about,

2260
02:11:58,666 --> 02:12:00,416
yeah, it's all about the connections. If

2261
02:12:00,416 --> 02:12:02,291
anybody's listening out there, the shark

2262
02:12:02,291 --> 02:12:04,208
NATO, give us, give me a shout. So yeah,

2263
02:12:04,208 --> 02:12:06,333
exactly. Exactly. All right. That was

2264
02:12:06,333 --> 02:12:07,583
awesome. Dave. Well, thank you so much.

2265
02:12:07,583 --> 02:12:10,791
And everybody, Lisa, Greg, Chris, we

2266
02:12:10,791 --> 02:12:12,916
appreciate you guys for joining us. It is

2267
02:12:12,916 --> 02:12:15,000
awesome to have you on and everybody

2268
02:12:15,000 --> 02:12:16,958
else. Let us know what your stories are

2269
02:12:16,958 --> 02:12:18,958
on about Jaws. Like when you first saw

2270
02:12:18,958 --> 02:12:21,291
Jaws, what was your initial reaction? Did

2271
02:12:21,291 --> 02:12:21,666
it, did it help you?

2272
02:12:22,666 --> 02:12:25,625
You know, develop a love for sharks or

2273
02:12:25,625 --> 02:12:27,208
fascination for sharks and interest for

2274
02:12:27,208 --> 02:12:28,625
sharks. I would love to hear your

2275
02:12:28,625 --> 02:12:30,500
thoughts on it. Hit us up on the on Jaws

2276
02:12:30,500 --> 02:12:34,000
pod Instagram or at lost shark guy and

2277
02:12:34,000 --> 02:12:37,000
people want to get a hold of you or they

2278
02:12:37,000 --> 02:12:37,666
could watch your series on YouTube.

2279
02:12:37,708 --> 02:12:39,375
You should watch the series on your

2280
02:12:39,375 --> 02:12:41,125
shirt. If search for lost shark on lost

2281
02:12:41,125 --> 02:12:42,541
shark and the YouTube channel lost shark

2282
02:12:42,541 --> 02:12:44,791
guy. And we'll, we'll link to it in the

2283
02:12:44,791 --> 02:12:46,666
description. But other than that, well,

2284
02:12:46,666 --> 02:12:47,916
thank you so much for joining us on

2285
02:12:47,916 --> 02:12:49,500
today's episode of the beyond Jaws

2286
02:12:49,500 --> 02:12:50,833
podcast. Have a great day. We'll talk to

2287
02:12:50,833 --> 02:12:51,666
you next time and happy conservation.