Mick Grant: Discovering River Sharks and Sawfish in Papua New Guinea

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Welcome back to another episode of the

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Beyond Jaws podcast.

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The podcast where we

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spotlight the people behind the shark,

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the science of sharks,

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rays and their conservation.

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In this episode, we're

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joined by Dr. Mike Gull,

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also known as Mick Grant,

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a postdoctoral researcher

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at James Cook University

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who shares his journey from

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a childhood love of nature

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to groundbreaking work in

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river sharks and sawfishes

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in Papua New Guinea and Indonesia.

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From rediscovering rare species

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like the sail and hound shark

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to advocating for

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smarter conservation policies,

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Mick offers a insights

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into real world challenges

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for protecting some of the most,

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some of the oceans

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most threatened predators

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and how the next generation of scientists

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can make a difference.

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We're gonna talk about

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all this on this episode

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of the how to protect,

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we're gonna talk

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about this on this episode

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of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome back

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to another exciting episode

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of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I'm your co-host, Andrew Lewin,

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here with my co-host, Dr. David Ebert.

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Dave, how are things?

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Are you excited for this interview?

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I'm super excited for this interview for

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a number of reasons.

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Probably most notably is Mick's discovery

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of the sail fin hound shark,

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which is definitely one of

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the rare species out there

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and what occurs in a part of

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the world, Papua New Guinea,

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that's not well known at all.

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But Mick has been working

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there for a number of years

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and it's a difficult area to work into

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for a whole host of reasons

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we'll talk about in the show.

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And it's fascinating area of the world.

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It's in that area where it's a high

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biodiversity of things.

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And so I'm really looking forward.

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I'm really glad we're able to get him on

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because Mick's traveling quite a bit

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and it's hard to catch

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up with the guy at times.

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But he's got some

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really fascinating stories

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and so I'm really

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looking forward to this.

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Yeah, this should be an interesting one.

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He's a postdoc researcher right now

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and talks a lot about his PhD

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and sort of all these new discoveries

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and what you can do at

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this early on in his career.

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I think it's a really great example of

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what people can accomplish

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when they start to go for rare species

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or species where we don't

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have a lot of information on.

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I think Dave, you've been

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professing this for a long time.

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You start to learn about

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species we don't know about

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and groups of sharks

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that we don't know about

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and that helps in not only putting your

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legacy in the shark science in the field,

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but also knowing more about sharks, rays

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and chimeras in general.

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So this is gonna be a great interview.

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Here's the interview

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with Dr. Mick Grant in joy

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and we'll talk to you after.

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Hey Mick, welcome to

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the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about sharks,

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skates and rays conservation?

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Are you ready?

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Absolutely.

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Cool.

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Love it.

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Well, welcome to another

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episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast

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where we have the fabulous

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Dr. Michael Mick Grant today.

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As our guests coming all

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the way from Bali, Indonesia.

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Mick's a postdoctoral researcher at James

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Cook University in Australia

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where he completed an undergraduate

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degree, an honors degree and

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a PhD at the University there.

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His research focuses on the

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conservation of sharks and rays,

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particularly on aspects of life history,

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including the

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applications of vertebral chemistry,

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extinction and

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vulnerability risk assessments

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and understanding human drivers of

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population declines.

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Mick's research has focused particularly

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on riverine and coastal areas

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with a particular emphasis on identifying

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populations and threats to river sharks,

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glyphosate species, freshwater rays and

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sawfishes in Papua New

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Guinea and Indonesia.

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He's a member of the

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IECN shark specialist group,

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where he served as an editor on the

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recent global status of

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sharks, rays and chimeras report.

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Mick's were published over 30 papers

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and he frequently presents at conferences

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where he's been a keynote speaker

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at the Oceania Condricting Society, at

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the International Seminar on Fisheries

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and Marine Science, at the Lumbung

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Mankuret University in Indonesia,

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which I probably mangled but Mick can

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explain it, pronounce it to

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us correctly in a few minutes.

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He also serves as the vice chair for the

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Sawfish Conservation Society.

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He's a conservation and fisheries advisor

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for the PICU Biodiversity

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Network in Papua New Guinea.

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He's an adjunct lecturer at another

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university in Indonesia, the Haasanudin

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University in Indonesia.

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Mick finds supervising students to be the

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most rewarding part of his

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job as a shark scientist.

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His current position is as a postdoctoral

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research fellow at conservation and

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fisheries at James Cook University.

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He's a lecturer also at a

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university in Indonesia.

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As I mentioned, Mick did his BSC at James

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Cook as well as an honors and a PhD.

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Mick, welcome to the show.

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Thanks for having me.

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I like the intro there.

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Yeah. You got to look good.

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Why don't you look good here.

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So our first question we always like to

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ask the guests, how did you get

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interested in sharks and

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rays and marine science?

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Yeah, I suppose I'm a traditional shark

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tragic in that I kind of grew up in a

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very sort of nature based family.

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I spent a lot of time going

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to national parks and things.

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And some of my earliest

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memories are watching.

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There used to be a Walking with Dinosaurs

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series. I don't know if it was on the BBC

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or something back in the late 1990s.

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And a few of the episodes focused on the

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golden age of sharks or the old sharks

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throughout the rotational traffic.

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For some reason that just clicked with

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me. So this time I'm

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probably three, four years old.

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Yeah. And then so my dad does a lot of

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fishing. He's always been a very

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enthusiastic fisherman.

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I love our holidays growing up or based

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around, you know, we got some other

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missions going to get there and, you

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know, go and scope out or fishing spots

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and beaches and best gardens and rocks

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might be around the

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fish based on a swell.

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And I think a lot of that kind of got me

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thinking ecologically about, you know,

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why is this fishing

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sport better than the other.

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We tended to chase Mulloway, which I can

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be a big type of Jewishy.

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Yeah. So that was kind of a glory catch.

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Don't ask me about our success rate.

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But the journey, not

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the destination. Yeah.

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Yeah. So I think that got me going in

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terms of marine biology and fish and

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thinking about the environment.

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Yeah. Where we want to be fishing. We

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spent a lot of time.

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No good. So we a lot of the fishing we

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did was up at a place called Yamba, which

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is North New South Wales Clarence River

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and home of the bull shark

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is what they call that river.

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So there's been a bit of research out of

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there recently, actually. But yeah, they

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were the black hatch.

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You know, when we go

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is all the way around.

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It wasn't unusual that hook a bull shark

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and you know, you really get stined in

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the lines off to the horizon.

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Yeah. So that kind of got me interested

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in sharks and rivers. Yeah.

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Yeah. Because it's always found that it

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is really big, powerful animals.

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So the type estrus and things. Yes, I

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think that's probably what kicked it off.

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Now, when you're going to school, you

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start school like grade school, the high

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school, would you just do it? People ask

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you like, so what are you

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gonna do when you grow up?

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Make you just tell them

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I'm gonna go study sharks.

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I wanted to for sure. I probably didn't

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start saying that until

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maybe about year 10. I am.

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So my dad's sort of from a medical

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background as a medical doctor. My sister

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does pharmacy. I was kind of, yeah,

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erring toward that

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general field, I guess.

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I wasn't very

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academic and I hated school.

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You know, it's great. It's great. I

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didn't really kick into

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gear until probably 12.

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Yeah, but by that you tend I started

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doing a lot of spear fishing and I bought

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a really nice underwater camera.

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Yeah. And I mean, I feel

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my mates get up regularly.

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I think that I got into, yeah, it's

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probably around that time.

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It's probably six or seven hours.

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In marine biology, I grew up in Sydney,

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post-good, criminal.

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The marine biology options probably

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weren't great there. There's a few

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universities. There's some good

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universities in Sydney.

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Yeah, marine biology is

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necessarily a strong suit.

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And I didn't really want to end up

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studying algal reefs.

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You know, the things that I was throwing

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to the tropics, like everyone.

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So yeah, James Corp

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University up in town.

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I sort of set my sights on that. I

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finished high school.

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Probably Gappier actually to get some

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money together to sort of

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fund heading up that way.

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Yeah, I did it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. I didn't know when you went up to James

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Cook was was Colin

281
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:53,208
Sifendorfer there at the time.

282
01:09:54,166 --> 01:09:56,333
He was. Yeah, not not to my

283
01:09:56,333 --> 01:09:58,458
knowledge whatsoever. I am.

284
01:09:59,833 --> 01:10:01,833
Yeah, it's pretty funny actually how I

285
01:10:01,833 --> 01:10:04,625
tripped over him. So I was talking along

286
01:10:04,625 --> 01:10:06,041
in undergrad degrees.

287
01:10:06,291 --> 01:10:07,208
It's a three year degree.

288
01:10:08,166 --> 01:10:10,041
I was doing a double degree actually in

289
01:10:10,041 --> 01:10:11,916
aquaculture and marine biology.

290
01:10:13,166 --> 01:10:17,958
There's this really good aquatic so that

291
01:10:17,958 --> 01:10:19,333
he did physiology of

292
01:10:19,333 --> 01:10:21,666
things like barramundi.

293
01:10:21,958 --> 01:10:23,958
And he was a really great guy. And I was,

294
01:10:23,958 --> 01:10:25,875
yeah, sort of half thinking of

295
01:10:25,875 --> 01:10:27,958
wanting to do honors with him.

296
01:10:28,291 --> 01:10:29,125
And then he actually left.

297
01:10:30,166 --> 01:10:34,166
JCU. And then I went to the sort of

298
01:10:34,166 --> 01:10:36,000
honors coordinator like, hey, you know, I

299
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:39,291
like sharks and actually inquired about

300
01:10:39,291 --> 01:10:41,583
coming to South Africa, believe it or

301
01:10:41,583 --> 01:10:43,583
not, because your name had

302
01:10:43,583 --> 01:10:44,958
come up in my Google searches.

303
01:10:45,166 --> 01:10:48,000
And I was like, oh, I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm just saying. And

304
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:50,458
yeah, this lady, she just kind of looked

305
01:10:50,458 --> 01:10:52,291
at me like, you know, you

306
01:10:52,291 --> 01:10:53,875
know, Colin Sifendorfer's here.

307
01:10:54,583 --> 01:10:56,416
And I could just kind of sense that

308
01:10:56,416 --> 01:10:58,791
obviously, he was some big week in the

309
01:10:58,791 --> 01:11:00,500
shark world. And I was like, oh, yeah.

310
01:11:00,750 --> 01:11:02,208
Yeah. You know, but that's, you know, I

311
01:11:02,208 --> 01:11:04,875
wanted to explore my options and do that.

312
01:11:04,875 --> 01:11:06,166
So then went home, Google,

313
01:11:06,166 --> 01:11:07,916
Colin, was like, oh, yeah.

314
01:11:08,125 --> 01:11:09,458
OK. I need to go talk to

315
01:11:09,458 --> 01:11:12,125
him. And then funny story.

316
01:11:12,166 --> 01:11:15,500
So he was having that week was having a

317
01:11:15,500 --> 01:11:18,416
seminar with another visiting researcher.

318
01:11:18,625 --> 01:11:21,833
This is two thousand and fifteen, I guess

319
01:11:21,833 --> 01:11:23,291
early two thousand and fifteen.

320
01:11:24,458 --> 01:11:27,166
So I went along to this seminar and I was

321
01:11:27,166 --> 01:11:29,708
like, you know, listen to Colin's talk. I

322
01:11:29,708 --> 01:11:31,375
wanted to just ask a question about

323
01:11:31,375 --> 01:11:33,291
anything after the talk

324
01:11:33,291 --> 01:11:34,125
and then go up and leave it.

325
01:11:34,166 --> 01:11:39,458
I did that. So, yeah, the first guy spoke

326
01:11:39,458 --> 01:11:41,541
and I didn't really pay him any mind.

327
01:11:43,208 --> 01:11:46,625
And Colin spoke after question or take up

328
01:11:46,625 --> 01:11:47,125
a meeting for the next day.

329
01:11:47,333 --> 01:11:50,916
That hit me about three years later, but

330
01:11:50,916 --> 01:11:53,541
the guy who spoke before Colin was Nick

331
01:11:53,541 --> 01:11:57,291
Givi and he was presenting the 2014

332
01:11:57,291 --> 01:11:59,791
Global Status paper, which is probably

333
01:11:59,791 --> 01:12:01,916
the biggest paper in shark

334
01:12:01,916 --> 01:12:04,125
biology possibly still is.

335
01:12:05,333 --> 01:12:08,500
Yeah. And I just did not click at all for

336
01:12:08,500 --> 01:12:09,416
that three years. And

337
01:12:09,416 --> 01:12:11,750
when I was like, oh, yeah.

338
01:12:14,166 --> 01:12:16,458
And that was so that was how I got on the

339
01:12:16,458 --> 01:12:20,500
call. And yeah, that was early 2015. I

340
01:12:20,500 --> 01:12:22,125
was still in my third year of undergrad.

341
01:12:24,625 --> 01:12:27,750
Yeah. And then I, you know, as as you

342
01:12:27,750 --> 01:12:29,916
sort of got to do, I think I had done a

343
01:12:29,916 --> 01:12:32,291
bit of research on him for how to look at

344
01:12:32,291 --> 01:12:34,666
what he'd you know, what his research

345
01:12:34,666 --> 01:12:35,125
topics and things were.

346
01:12:35,166 --> 01:12:37,541
And some of those drawn to was the deep

347
01:12:37,541 --> 01:12:42,125
water shark space because I noted that,

348
01:12:42,125 --> 01:12:44,666
you know, there weren't there wasn't much

349
01:12:44,666 --> 01:12:47,333
research out there and the research that

350
01:12:47,333 --> 01:12:48,500
was out there was there

351
01:12:48,500 --> 01:12:50,291
wasn't a lot of information.

352
01:12:50,708 --> 01:12:54,041
So that would be a good thing. And it's a

353
01:12:54,041 --> 01:12:55,958
bit unusual, you know, because I'm sure

354
01:12:55,958 --> 01:12:58,708
Colin would get, you know, 20 students

355
01:12:58,708 --> 01:12:59,833
inquiring about honors.

356
01:13:01,166 --> 01:13:03,958
So, yeah, I had a chat to him about that.

357
01:13:04,250 --> 01:13:08,333
He was somewhat interested. And then he

358
01:13:08,333 --> 01:13:10,000
sort of put me on to Cassie Rigby.

359
01:13:11,208 --> 01:13:14,000
And so Cassie was living up in Cairns,

360
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:17,291
which is about a four hour drive north of

361
01:13:17,291 --> 01:13:19,083
town. And I happen to be

362
01:13:19,083 --> 01:13:20,125
heading up there to do some diving.

363
01:13:20,166 --> 01:13:24,208
So I, yeah, hit up Cassie and sort of

364
01:13:24,208 --> 01:13:25,958
said, hey, you know, looking to do a

365
01:13:25,958 --> 01:13:29,333
project with Colin, he said to have a

366
01:13:29,333 --> 01:13:30,500
chat about deep water sharks.

367
01:13:31,041 --> 01:13:32,833
So I drove up there and met her at

368
01:13:32,833 --> 01:13:35,333
Queensland Fisheries, which is working at

369
01:13:35,333 --> 01:13:37,833
the time. We had a bit of a chat.

370
01:13:39,083 --> 01:13:41,750
She was finishing up her PhD and had done

371
01:13:41,750 --> 01:13:43,958
a whole bunch of deep

372
01:13:43,958 --> 01:13:45,125
water stuff and that obviously.

373
01:13:46,166 --> 01:13:48,000
But yeah, it didn't quite sound like

374
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:51,333
those legs for sort of any residual data

375
01:13:51,333 --> 01:13:53,541
or things to do for an honest.

376
01:13:55,625 --> 01:13:57,791
So that, yeah, it was a ended up being an

377
01:13:57,791 --> 01:14:01,208
incredibly valuable connection to make

378
01:14:01,208 --> 01:14:02,125
which, you know, that's it.

379
01:14:07,708 --> 01:14:09,583
And then I was back to Colin and we sort

380
01:14:09,583 --> 01:14:11,583
of I think we met three or four times

381
01:14:11,583 --> 01:14:13,666
weren't really getting anywhere.

382
01:14:13,666 --> 01:14:15,500
And I was sort of getting concerned as to

383
01:14:15,500 --> 01:14:17,916
whether anything would eventuate. And

384
01:14:17,916 --> 01:14:19,625
then one day I walked into his office and

385
01:14:19,625 --> 01:14:21,458
there's a big box of silky shark

386
01:14:21,458 --> 01:14:22,125
vertebrae sitting on his desk.

387
01:14:22,166 --> 01:14:25,416
And I was, you know, the silky shark is

388
01:14:25,416 --> 01:14:28,666
and I said, no, I don't brought it up on

389
01:14:28,666 --> 01:14:31,458
Google, showed me a picture. And then,

390
01:14:31,458 --> 01:14:32,750
yeah, we sort of started talking about

391
01:14:32,750 --> 01:14:34,000
life history and aging.

392
01:14:34,958 --> 01:14:37,541
So John Smart was at JCU at the time sort

393
01:14:37,541 --> 01:14:42,041
of, yeah, doing all his modeling and age

394
01:14:42,041 --> 01:14:43,125
and growth and demography scripts.

395
01:14:44,166 --> 01:14:46,208
And yeah, so I sort of

396
01:14:46,208 --> 01:14:48,958
slotted into that space and yeah.

397
01:14:49,750 --> 01:14:54,500
So was that something that you, you know,

398
01:14:54,500 --> 01:14:56,166
when he presented you with that, that

399
01:14:56,166 --> 01:14:58,916
project, was that something you were like

400
01:14:58,916 --> 01:15:01,500
interested in pursuing or was it just

401
01:15:01,500 --> 01:15:03,875
more of, okay, so we finally find a

402
01:15:03,875 --> 01:15:07,000
project that we can do together as more

403
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:08,125
of a last minute resort?

404
01:15:08,166 --> 01:15:10,625
Like initially, did you think of aging as

405
01:15:10,625 --> 01:15:12,791
something that you wanted to do or did

406
01:15:12,791 --> 01:15:14,458
you have something else in mind? And then

407
01:15:14,458 --> 01:15:15,625
when it was presented to you, did you

408
01:15:15,625 --> 01:15:16,666
take it because, oh, this

409
01:15:16,666 --> 01:15:17,708
actually seems interesting.

410
01:15:17,708 --> 01:15:19,333
Or did you take it because, you know,

411
01:15:19,333 --> 01:15:21,000
finally we have a project, you know, not

412
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:22,541
to take anything away from it. Obviously,

413
01:15:22,541 --> 01:15:23,333
it ended up working

414
01:15:23,333 --> 01:15:24,291
out really well for you.

415
01:15:24,291 --> 01:15:27,000
But just initially as that, that, you

416
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:28,750
know, enthusiastic student that you want

417
01:15:28,750 --> 01:15:30,541
to be trying to find a project, you just

418
01:15:30,541 --> 01:15:32,000
kind of settle on that? Or was that

419
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:33,291
something that when he presented to you

420
01:15:33,291 --> 01:15:34,208
like, no, no, this is this

421
01:15:34,208 --> 01:15:35,125
is something I want to do.

422
01:15:36,583 --> 01:15:40,083
I mean, in the initial five seconds, it

423
01:15:40,083 --> 01:15:42,250
was yes, I get to do a project with

424
01:15:42,250 --> 01:15:45,250
Colin, you know, matter what it was.

425
01:15:46,541 --> 01:15:48,750
No, but then I, you know, sort of did a

426
01:15:48,750 --> 01:15:51,208
bit of research on the species and second

427
01:15:51,208 --> 01:15:52,750
most caught the shark and the world.

428
01:15:53,875 --> 01:15:56,625
And just the application of aging growth

429
01:15:56,625 --> 01:15:58,208
sciences and how that kind of

430
01:15:58,208 --> 01:16:00,000
transferred to the oscodalist.

431
01:16:02,583 --> 01:16:05,125
Yeah, there was a very

432
01:16:05,125 --> 01:16:06,791
short reflection period.

433
01:16:08,166 --> 01:16:11,916
The green light was on. So, yeah.

434
01:16:12,541 --> 01:16:13,416
So, and that became

435
01:16:13,416 --> 01:16:15,125
your honors project then?

436
01:16:16,666 --> 01:16:18,833
That's it. Yeah, yeah. So I had five

437
01:16:18,833 --> 01:16:22,000
hundred and fifty vertebrae to age. And I

438
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:23,208
actually did a little

439
01:16:23,208 --> 01:16:25,125
internship with Colin before that.

440
01:16:25,166 --> 01:16:28,666
Our college had some scheme for undergrad

441
01:16:28,666 --> 01:16:30,416
students to sort of get a pace for

442
01:16:30,416 --> 01:16:34,916
research. So I had on Colin had a set of

443
01:16:34,916 --> 01:16:36,250
silky shark that had been

444
01:16:36,250 --> 01:16:38,250
aged from the Indian Ocean.

445
01:16:38,250 --> 01:16:40,583
So I sort of trained up on those.

446
01:16:42,166 --> 01:16:45,125
Did my P and G or central West Pacific,

447
01:16:45,500 --> 01:16:48,791
so to shock vertebrae.

448
01:16:48,791 --> 01:16:51,458
Yeah, good memories in that. Yeah. The

449
01:16:51,458 --> 01:16:55,083
dry lab aging lab. It just it's like it

450
01:16:55,083 --> 01:16:58,916
was just the boxes of very

451
01:16:58,916 --> 01:17:00,125
slowly decaying vertebrae.

452
01:17:01,166 --> 01:17:04,875
Aircon didn't really work being towns or,

453
01:17:05,125 --> 01:17:07,416
you know, the summer months. It's thirty

454
01:17:07,416 --> 01:17:09,375
five degrees close to

455
01:17:09,375 --> 01:17:10,208
one hundred percent.

456
01:17:10,208 --> 01:17:12,208
I used to like you'd be looking through

457
01:17:12,208 --> 01:17:15,625
the the microscope to age.

458
01:17:16,208 --> 01:17:18,625
And it was so hot that like you'd get

459
01:17:18,625 --> 01:17:21,583
condensation on the lens so you could age

460
01:17:21,583 --> 01:17:23,125
about three vertebrae.

461
01:17:23,416 --> 01:17:25,541
And then you sort of had to back away

462
01:17:25,541 --> 01:17:28,375
like the lens off and let the lens

463
01:17:28,375 --> 01:17:31,500
actually cool down as the heat from the

464
01:17:31,500 --> 01:17:32,958
eye would make the

465
01:17:32,958 --> 01:17:34,500
glass colder than the air.

466
01:17:35,291 --> 01:17:37,333
Yeah. So yeah, that's a

467
01:17:37,333 --> 01:17:38,416
lot of sweat in that room.

468
01:17:39,166 --> 01:17:42,500
But a little shed some pounds to you with

469
01:17:42,500 --> 01:17:45,041
a water weight. Yeah. Yeah.

470
01:17:46,166 --> 01:17:48,000
So you did that and do that for your for

471
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:48,958
your honors project.

472
01:17:48,958 --> 01:17:50,541
And then do you end up going straight to

473
01:17:50,541 --> 01:17:55,125
a PhD from there or when you. Yeah, I

474
01:17:55,125 --> 01:17:58,041
did. I am. Yeah, I never had a chance to

475
01:17:58,041 --> 01:17:58,916
breathe, to be honest.

476
01:17:59,333 --> 01:18:02,083
I so what happens? I punched out that age

477
01:18:02,083 --> 01:18:04,208
and growth work and then I kind of had a

478
01:18:04,208 --> 01:18:06,750
few extra months and we did a bit of

479
01:18:06,750 --> 01:18:10,000
demography as well, which is very much

480
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:11,125
standing on the shoulders of John.

481
01:18:12,166 --> 01:18:15,333
To this day, struggle to

482
01:18:15,333 --> 01:18:16,625
write one plus one and a.

483
01:18:18,666 --> 01:18:20,375
But yeah, so we got through that. And

484
01:18:20,375 --> 01:18:22,625
then the honors package ended up being,

485
01:18:22,625 --> 01:18:25,041
you know, really, really solid thesis for

486
01:18:25,041 --> 01:18:26,291
the good age and great

487
01:18:26,291 --> 01:18:28,583
paper and demography paper.

488
01:18:30,708 --> 01:18:35,416
So I went down to OCS in 2016 now

489
01:18:35,416 --> 01:18:39,125
presented my work. So we'll write had the funding for this broader.

490
01:18:40,166 --> 01:18:43,541
Sharts and raise a P&G

491
01:18:43,541 --> 01:18:46,250
project for all these vertebrae.

492
01:18:46,916 --> 01:18:48,125
Yeah, it led to, you know,

493
01:18:48,125 --> 01:18:50,416
my eyes. What was my school's?

494
01:18:50,791 --> 01:18:54,291
The Masters to do smarts. There's a bunch

495
01:18:54,291 --> 01:18:55,083
of us have worked on

496
01:18:55,083 --> 01:18:56,458
all the different species.

497
01:18:57,458 --> 01:19:01,333
And yeah, I presented my work and then

498
01:19:01,333 --> 01:19:02,125
started talking to Cassie and Britt about people in the shots were peach.

499
01:19:03,166 --> 01:19:07,041
And I was back on the deep water train.

500
01:19:08,791 --> 01:19:10,458
Yeah, we had a couple of chats about, you

501
01:19:10,458 --> 01:19:11,708
know, it's anything to do.

502
01:19:11,708 --> 01:19:14,541
Can we get on any of these vessels and

503
01:19:14,541 --> 01:19:16,625
you know, the coal sea of Queensland or

504
01:19:16,625 --> 01:19:19,500
the Western deep water troll and yet a

505
01:19:19,500 --> 01:19:21,166
feeling was to be a bit difficult.

506
01:19:21,708 --> 01:19:25,916
Yeah. Again, it kind of just wasn't

507
01:19:25,916 --> 01:19:27,833
really going anywhere just because of the

508
01:19:27,833 --> 01:19:30,666
funding and what you need to

509
01:19:30,666 --> 01:19:31,166
get on this deep water project.

510
01:19:32,166 --> 01:19:34,000
It's because you know, fishermen are

511
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:38,541
always the one for nothing. Yeah. And

512
01:19:38,541 --> 01:19:40,375
then out of the blue, we'll say, hey, can

513
01:19:40,375 --> 01:19:41,125
we have a quick chat?

514
01:19:42,375 --> 01:19:45,000
You know, absolutely sat down. He said,

515
01:19:45,458 --> 01:19:48,833
look, I got this funding from from say, I

516
01:19:48,833 --> 01:19:50,625
see these two at the time.

517
01:19:50,625 --> 01:19:52,125
I think he had actually been awarded the

518
01:19:52,125 --> 01:19:52,958
funding, but he just

519
01:19:52,958 --> 01:19:53,125
put the second round.

520
01:19:54,166 --> 01:19:59,083
Yeah, it was to go and essentially work

521
01:19:59,083 --> 01:20:01,041
out where sawfish were in the beginning

522
01:20:01,041 --> 01:20:04,916
because he'd done a bit of work on sort

523
01:20:04,916 --> 01:20:07,083
of shark fin markets and they detected

524
01:20:07,083 --> 01:20:10,625
all four species in just this tiny amount

525
01:20:10,625 --> 01:20:12,416
of sample effort, which kind of indicated

526
01:20:12,416 --> 01:20:14,125
that they must be there somewhere.

527
01:20:15,166 --> 01:20:18,250
And that was the same trick where they

528
01:20:18,250 --> 01:20:19,958
sort of trip go to a couple of the

529
01:20:19,958 --> 01:20:22,291
groupists, the two groupists species,

530
01:20:23,125 --> 01:20:25,625
which at the time were the first

531
01:20:25,625 --> 01:20:27,000
rockwoods in 15 years.

532
01:20:27,500 --> 01:20:31,458
So yeah, there was a bit of a feeling

533
01:20:31,458 --> 01:20:32,916
that, you know, you look at a map of

534
01:20:32,916 --> 01:20:36,125
Papua New Guinea rivers, enormous

535
01:20:36,125 --> 01:20:38,375
estuaries, you know, really shallow

536
01:20:38,375 --> 01:20:40,166
turbid coastal waters.

537
01:20:41,166 --> 01:20:43,583
And, you know, how do all the makings of

538
01:20:43,583 --> 01:20:45,750
crying or sawfish and gorgeous habitat

539
01:20:45,750 --> 01:20:48,083
that are extremely accessible?

540
01:20:49,708 --> 01:20:54,041
Yeah, no, we're back to later. Yeah. When

541
01:20:54,041 --> 01:20:56,083
you came across this first, these first

542
01:20:56,083 --> 01:20:58,166
river sharks, the glyphosate and the

543
01:20:58,166 --> 01:20:59,291
salt, where they had fish market.

544
01:20:59,291 --> 01:21:00,500
Obviously, you found them in

545
01:21:00,500 --> 01:21:01,750
the guys are catching them.

546
01:21:03,291 --> 01:21:10,958
I know, I think we found fins first and

547
01:21:10,958 --> 01:21:12,625
then we sort of fell in this village

548
01:21:12,625 --> 01:21:15,416
where they caught a few. I think one of

549
01:21:15,416 --> 01:21:16,541
the photos I'd sent me

550
01:21:16,541 --> 01:21:18,000
where I got a really long beard.

551
01:21:19,166 --> 01:21:23,500
Yeah, gruelling trip and we finally found

552
01:21:23,500 --> 01:21:25,125
one and I was very elated with that.

553
01:21:26,166 --> 01:21:31,250
Yeah, so I guess just to go back on the

554
01:21:31,250 --> 01:21:33,875
story bit there. So I took on that PhD

555
01:21:33,875 --> 01:21:37,166
from Will. So that I guess the picture

556
01:21:37,166 --> 01:21:38,708
we'll have was I've got this funding.

557
01:21:39,875 --> 01:21:41,875
I don't know if there's legs for a PhD in

558
01:21:41,875 --> 01:21:44,916
it, but, you know, it'll be pretty cool

559
01:21:44,916 --> 01:21:47,333
nonetheless. I had a chat with Colin

560
01:21:47,333 --> 01:21:51,125
again and we sort of hatched a plan to

561
01:21:51,125 --> 01:21:52,125
stretch it into a PhD.

562
01:21:53,166 --> 01:21:56,208
I think Colin student load was saturated

563
01:21:56,208 --> 01:21:57,958
the time sweet and Andrew

564
01:21:57,958 --> 01:22:00,375
Chin come on as primary advisor.

565
01:22:03,166 --> 01:22:04,791
Yeah, then we'll work with obviously an

566
01:22:04,791 --> 01:22:07,000
advisor and then we got Pete Kine as

567
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:08,875
well. So that ended

568
01:22:08,875 --> 01:22:09,125
up with the dream team.

569
01:22:09,166 --> 01:22:13,666
Colin Andrew willing to eat. Yeah, yeah.

570
01:22:14,083 --> 01:22:16,750
Let me let me ask you this in terms of

571
01:22:16,750 --> 01:22:18,375
because I know a lot of the times when

572
01:22:18,375 --> 01:22:20,083
you see people that go to school and they

573
01:22:20,083 --> 01:22:22,041
do like their undergraduate there, maybe

574
01:22:22,041 --> 01:22:25,083
their masters and a PhD, even a postdoc,

575
01:22:25,083 --> 01:22:27,125
they do it at different universities and

576
01:22:27,125 --> 01:22:29,708
we're seeing I'm starting to notice more

577
01:22:29,708 --> 01:22:31,000
and more that people are staying at

578
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:33,041
universities to their undergrad, maybe

579
01:22:33,041 --> 01:22:34,333
not do their their masters,

580
01:22:34,333 --> 01:22:35,875
but have the likes to do a PhD.

581
01:22:36,166 --> 01:22:38,125
What was the reason that you stayed at

582
01:22:38,125 --> 01:22:39,791
JC? Was it just because of the people

583
01:22:39,791 --> 01:22:41,166
that were on your advisory were like,

584
01:22:41,166 --> 01:22:42,958
yeah, like mostly at JC, you obviously

585
01:22:42,958 --> 01:22:45,458
their legends in the game to do that. But

586
01:22:45,458 --> 01:22:46,708
was that the reason is just the project

587
01:22:46,708 --> 01:22:49,291
came to be it ended up having the legs to

588
01:22:49,291 --> 01:22:51,583
do a PhD and then also your advisory

589
01:22:51,583 --> 01:22:54,125
committee was just so, you know, stacked.

590
01:22:54,166 --> 01:22:55,500
And then you're just like, why, why go

591
01:22:55,500 --> 01:22:57,291
anywhere else? Like was that ever a

592
01:22:57,291 --> 01:22:59,500
concern of yours? I think some people

593
01:22:59,500 --> 01:23:01,333
when they do PhDs, they wonder if they

594
01:23:01,333 --> 01:23:02,958
should stay at the same school that they

595
01:23:02,958 --> 01:23:04,166
did their undergrad or even their

596
01:23:04,166 --> 01:23:06,625
graduate work, like a masters and then,

597
01:23:06,625 --> 01:23:08,625
you know, go or go somewhere else. I'd

598
01:23:08,625 --> 01:23:09,250
love to hear your

599
01:23:09,250 --> 01:23:10,958
thought process on that.

600
01:23:12,500 --> 01:23:15,750
Yeah, well, for me, I didn't have time to

601
01:23:15,750 --> 01:23:17,791
think about it, to be honest. I mean, I

602
01:23:17,791 --> 01:23:19,875
was so I'm going to go in a clinic.

603
01:23:20,791 --> 01:23:22,958
Yeah, I was sort of offered that work

604
01:23:22,958 --> 01:23:25,708
from will win that was September. And

605
01:23:25,708 --> 01:23:27,833
then my thesis on his thesis wasn't due,

606
01:23:27,833 --> 01:23:28,875
I think, into November.

607
01:23:30,166 --> 01:23:33,500
Oh, so it's not a lot. Yeah, you know, my

608
01:23:33,500 --> 01:23:37,125
PhD paperwork is in the same time. I

609
01:23:37,125 --> 01:23:39,583
mean, you know, being to bring up calling

610
01:23:39,583 --> 01:23:41,125
again, I mean, it'd be crazy.

611
01:23:41,166 --> 01:23:45,500
Yeah, right. Oh, it's true. Essentially,

612
01:23:45,500 --> 01:23:49,333
Aristotle and sharks. So they need. Yeah,

613
01:23:49,333 --> 01:23:54,541
so there's no question. Yeah. I get the

614
01:23:54,541 --> 01:23:57,041
value. No, I, I do get the value and a

615
01:23:57,041 --> 01:23:58,375
lot of the students we have coming

616
01:23:58,375 --> 01:24:02,166
through to us now. They're rarely people

617
01:24:02,166 --> 01:24:03,791
that have done an undergraduate Jason.

618
01:24:04,666 --> 01:24:07,125
It is different. Yeah. Yeah.

619
01:24:07,166 --> 01:24:10,833
They got to ask you it before we'll pitch

620
01:24:10,833 --> 01:24:13,666
the the River sharks stuff to you. Had

621
01:24:13,666 --> 01:24:15,291
you ever heard of River sharks before?

622
01:24:16,583 --> 01:24:19,708
I'd heard of them. Yeah, yeah. No, I bull

623
01:24:19,708 --> 01:24:23,125
sharks had been my favorite species

624
01:24:23,125 --> 01:24:25,291
growing up and then reading up bull

625
01:24:25,291 --> 01:24:26,583
sharks. You know, there's always this

626
01:24:26,583 --> 01:24:28,125
throwaway sentences about these other

627
01:24:28,166 --> 01:24:31,625
glyphous things that also quite a bit is

628
01:24:31,625 --> 01:24:33,000
that we don't know much about them and

629
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:35,750
you know, back to the sharks. Yeah, so

630
01:24:35,750 --> 01:24:37,541
that they were firmly on my radar. I had

631
01:24:37,541 --> 01:24:38,958
to be honest, I was more interested in

632
01:24:38,958 --> 01:24:41,208
the river sharks than the sawfish coming

633
01:24:41,208 --> 01:24:44,541
into that project. Yeah. Yeah.

634
01:24:45,125 --> 01:24:47,708
And you've you've seen what both the was

635
01:24:47,708 --> 01:24:51,208
the Northern River shark and the Garyx

636
01:24:51,208 --> 01:24:52,458
River shark is that those are

637
01:24:52,458 --> 01:24:53,958
two species you encountered?

638
01:24:55,416 --> 01:24:58,000
Yeah, so they're the two we get the other

639
01:24:58,000 --> 01:25:01,666
two we get in Australia and then we get

640
01:25:01,666 --> 01:25:04,500
the glycoskangeticus which we're just

641
01:25:04,500 --> 01:25:06,958
that's you know, they'll come up maybe a

642
01:25:06,958 --> 01:25:09,791
bit later. Yeah, we just recently found

643
01:25:09,791 --> 01:25:10,625
that up in northern.

644
01:25:12,416 --> 01:25:15,041
Where'd you find it in? In North

645
01:25:15,041 --> 01:25:17,000
Kalimantan. So just, okay.

646
01:25:17,458 --> 01:25:19,333
In Indonesia side of this.

647
01:25:20,791 --> 01:25:22,791
Yeah, I was just in it. You know, follow

648
01:25:22,791 --> 01:25:25,791
me right in Jakarta. Follow me. Now he

649
01:25:25,791 --> 01:25:27,125
just showed me maybe this is the same

650
01:25:27,125 --> 01:25:29,958
one, but he had a glyphosate glyphosate

651
01:25:29,958 --> 01:25:32,041
gangeticus or no excuse me.

652
01:25:32,166 --> 01:25:34,458
The gangeticus that he just recently got,

653
01:25:34,458 --> 01:25:35,625
but I can't tell you where he got it

654
01:25:35,625 --> 01:25:38,041
might have been the same one. It was

655
01:25:38,041 --> 01:25:41,083
pretty quiet. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was

656
01:25:41,083 --> 01:25:42,541
pretty good. It was pretty good. It was

657
01:25:42,541 --> 01:25:44,833
pretty cool for me to see I I tell a

658
01:25:44,833 --> 01:25:47,333
story I mentioned mentioned in one of our

659
01:25:47,333 --> 01:25:49,125
earlier podcast, but I was when I was a student at Leonard Cope.

660
01:25:49,166 --> 01:25:50,041
When I was a student at Leonard

661
01:25:50,041 --> 01:25:54,166
Cappagno's back in the late 1980s, he had

662
01:25:54,166 --> 01:25:57,041
like the only I think most of the only

663
01:25:57,041 --> 01:25:59,000
known river sharks at the time the

664
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:02,166
gangeticus he was working on garak. I had

665
01:26:02,166 --> 01:26:06,041
to describe it at the time and and then

666
01:26:06,041 --> 01:26:07,833
he had and so he just he had pretty much

667
01:26:07,833 --> 01:26:09,958
all known species and he at the at this

668
01:26:09,958 --> 01:26:11,583
time we thought they might be extinct

669
01:26:11,583 --> 01:26:14,166
because he'd been at that point. He'd

670
01:26:14,166 --> 01:26:15,750
been through India had been to

671
01:26:15,750 --> 01:26:17,458
the Ganges River the Hooghly.

672
01:26:18,166 --> 01:26:19,875
I think he'd been through Indonesia, but

673
01:26:19,875 --> 01:26:22,625
they didn't have as much going on like

674
01:26:22,625 --> 01:26:24,125
taking this was probably he was there

675
01:26:24,125 --> 01:26:27,083
probably back in the early to mid 80s and

676
01:26:27,083 --> 01:26:28,958
at the time of workout, there were just

677
01:26:28,958 --> 01:26:30,375
wasn't really much more materially

678
01:26:30,375 --> 01:26:32,041
around. They actually thought this thing

679
01:26:32,041 --> 01:26:34,250
was extinct and I mentioned that because

680
01:26:34,250 --> 01:26:35,666
it was because like the work you've been

681
01:26:35,666 --> 01:26:38,291
doing Pete kind's been doing and Julia

682
01:26:38,291 --> 01:26:40,458
it's kind of cool. These things are

683
01:26:40,458 --> 01:26:41,958
actually if you know where to find them

684
01:26:41,958 --> 01:26:42,750
from what I can tell

685
01:26:42,750 --> 01:26:43,791
they're kind of common.

686
01:26:45,041 --> 01:26:53,750
Yeah, I mean I guess two things say I

687
01:26:53,750 --> 01:26:55,500
think the more we understand these

688
01:26:55,500 --> 01:26:58,375
animals, they just sit in this tight

689
01:26:58,375 --> 01:27:01,291
salinity band and you need a big title

690
01:27:01,291 --> 01:27:02,958
with others really terrible.

691
01:27:05,166 --> 01:27:06,583
I mean, I think that's sort of anywhere

692
01:27:06,583 --> 01:27:09,833
from 10 to 25 parts per thousand and if

693
01:27:09,833 --> 01:27:12,833
they're there you'll find them. So yeah,

694
01:27:12,833 --> 01:27:15,375
I think where our understanding is

695
01:27:15,375 --> 01:27:17,833
getting to a point that they probably do

696
01:27:17,833 --> 01:27:19,166
not use freshwater

697
01:27:19,166 --> 01:27:21,500
like outright freshwater.

698
01:27:24,625 --> 01:27:32,958
I mean, I'm like back in 2006, you can

699
01:27:32,958 --> 01:27:35,625
almost count the number of known river

700
01:27:35,625 --> 01:27:37,791
sharks in Australia on two hands like

701
01:27:37,791 --> 01:27:39,416
those just harboring any observations

702
01:27:39,416 --> 01:27:42,250
because they didn't get caught in their

703
01:27:42,250 --> 01:27:44,833
inshore fisheries. And if they did, they

704
01:27:44,833 --> 01:27:45,125
probably got misideed.

705
01:27:45,166 --> 01:27:50,791
Yeah, so they're just yeah, it was just

706
01:27:50,791 --> 01:27:52,791
really strange and then yeah, some of the

707
01:27:52,791 --> 01:27:54,500
work Pete kind did I guess they kind of

708
01:27:54,500 --> 01:27:57,458
zone in on you know, okay, they're in the

709
01:27:57,458 --> 01:27:59,333
estuary and they don't leave the estuary

710
01:27:59,333 --> 01:28:01,541
and some of the micro can work we've been

711
01:28:01,541 --> 01:28:03,500
doing on the vertebrae indicates that the

712
01:28:03,500 --> 01:28:04,125
adults don't really need the estuary.

713
01:28:04,166 --> 01:28:07,541
I don't know if juveniles are upper

714
01:28:07,541 --> 01:28:11,583
estuary adults lower estuary very little

715
01:28:11,583 --> 01:28:12,791
indication of freshwater.

716
01:28:14,166 --> 01:28:16,583
Yeah, so do you see it? Do you see them

717
01:28:16,583 --> 01:28:18,541
very much out in the pure marine

718
01:28:18,541 --> 01:28:20,125
environment or they just tend to be right

719
01:28:20,125 --> 01:28:22,708
that narrow zone in the estuary water?

720
01:28:23,625 --> 01:28:28,000
Yeah, that's the they the interesting

721
01:28:28,000 --> 01:28:31,208
thing is there's been one, I think adult

722
01:28:31,208 --> 01:28:34,416
that was caught well kind of away from a

723
01:28:34,416 --> 01:28:37,708
river and very much more. But probably

724
01:28:37,708 --> 01:28:41,708
99.9% records of all

725
01:28:41,708 --> 01:28:44,125
three species from an estuary.

726
01:28:45,208 --> 01:28:47,000
Yeah, I think there's a bit of a

727
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:49,833
misconception early on where good his

728
01:28:49,833 --> 01:28:53,291
band Jeddakis was described from was kind

729
01:28:53,291 --> 01:28:54,333
of suggested to have

730
01:28:54,333 --> 01:28:56,000
been a freshwater locality.

731
01:28:56,166 --> 01:29:00,083
That kind of set the seed that there

732
01:29:00,083 --> 01:29:02,458
these freshwater sharks, but I don't

733
01:29:02,458 --> 01:29:04,375
think they ever work unless they did

734
01:29:04,375 --> 01:29:06,625
penetrate further up the Ganges, which

735
01:29:06,625 --> 01:29:08,833
they tend to be another like,

736
01:29:08,833 --> 01:29:10,125
I can share one story with you.

737
01:29:10,166 --> 01:29:12,583
But this can Leonard Kupaño and he was

738
01:29:12,583 --> 01:29:15,708
when he was writing the the 1984 catalog

739
01:29:15,708 --> 01:29:18,708
of the sharks of the world for FAO.

740
01:29:19,125 --> 01:29:20,500
They sent him on around the world trip

741
01:29:20,500 --> 01:29:22,750
and he went to India for like six weeks

742
01:29:22,750 --> 01:29:24,916
and he he went to he went

743
01:29:24,916 --> 01:29:26,208
to the museum collections.

744
01:29:26,208 --> 01:29:30,125
He went out up the Ganges and he saw lots

745
01:29:30,125 --> 01:29:33,000
of bull sharks, but no

746
01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:34,125
but no no glyphosate.

747
01:29:34,166 --> 01:29:37,916
And so he but again, he was he may have

748
01:29:37,916 --> 01:29:39,958
been too far up the river like you were

749
01:29:39,958 --> 01:29:42,750
just suggesting and but he said bull

750
01:29:42,750 --> 01:29:44,708
sharks were pretty common.

751
01:29:44,708 --> 01:29:46,750
But he he came away thinking that these

752
01:29:46,750 --> 01:29:49,291
river sharks were probably might have

753
01:29:49,291 --> 01:29:50,958
gone extinct at that time just because he

754
01:29:50,958 --> 01:29:52,750
just he went up and down there.

755
01:29:52,750 --> 01:29:54,208
He went all over. They just could not

756
01:29:54,208 --> 01:29:57,166
find these things at all. But you know,

757
01:29:57,166 --> 01:29:58,958
but he was really until he sort of showed

758
01:29:58,958 --> 01:30:01,083
up. There wasn't really anybody paying

759
01:30:01,083 --> 01:30:02,083
that close attention.

760
01:30:02,166 --> 01:30:04,000
But they couldn't find it. But now

761
01:30:04,000 --> 01:30:06,541
knowing what you know, what P kind knows

762
01:30:06,541 --> 01:30:09,541
about finding like the right habitat,

763
01:30:09,750 --> 01:30:12,708
you've got to be in the right spot to get

764
01:30:12,708 --> 01:30:15,083
those things I get from my

765
01:30:15,083 --> 01:30:16,041
government around a while.

766
01:30:16,041 --> 01:30:17,875
I looked at this kind of a happy story

767
01:30:17,875 --> 01:30:19,875
and that these things are around. And if

768
01:30:19,875 --> 01:30:21,125
you know where to find them, they seem to

769
01:30:21,125 --> 01:30:23,500
be still hanging on pretty well,

770
01:30:23,916 --> 01:30:24,708
particularly in Australia.

771
01:30:25,708 --> 01:30:28,333
You know, I don't know about Pow Pow, New

772
01:30:28,333 --> 01:30:30,458
Guinea and Indonesia, maybe not so much.

773
01:30:30,791 --> 01:30:34,625
But I just haven't been one of the that

774
01:30:34,625 --> 01:30:36,541
was one of the first species I can recall

775
01:30:36,541 --> 01:30:38,458
as a young PhD student thinking like,

776
01:30:38,458 --> 01:30:39,833
man, these things may not

777
01:30:39,833 --> 01:30:41,125
may be gone like for good.

778
01:30:41,166 --> 01:30:44,875
The whole genus. So it's been such for me

779
01:30:44,875 --> 01:30:47,500
personally, an evolution to see that. And

780
01:30:47,500 --> 01:30:51,041
I went out last year, I went out with P

781
01:30:51,041 --> 01:30:52,625
kind and Julia, we went out and tagged

782
01:30:52,625 --> 01:30:55,875
some some of the glyphosate guy. And so I

783
01:30:55,875 --> 01:30:56,791
was like, that was probably one of the

784
01:30:56,791 --> 01:30:59,041
highlights of my career just to be able

785
01:30:59,041 --> 01:31:00,291
to actually go out and see him in the

786
01:31:00,291 --> 01:31:02,583
wild knowing what thinking that these

787
01:31:02,583 --> 01:31:03,750
things have been extinct at

788
01:31:03,750 --> 01:31:07,125
one time. So yeah, pretty. Yeah.

789
01:31:07,166 --> 01:31:10,916
Yeah, there's definitely a group of

790
01:31:10,916 --> 01:31:13,958
sharks that I'm sure ignite the lost

791
01:31:13,958 --> 01:31:17,125
shark neurons. Yeah, just a mystery.

792
01:31:17,166 --> 01:31:25,500
I mean, just to skim over the PNG work,

793
01:31:25,833 --> 01:31:28,000
but when we started the Borneo project

794
01:31:28,000 --> 01:31:30,750
I'm currently working on, so our funding

795
01:31:30,750 --> 01:31:33,500
was specifically to go and try and find

796
01:31:33,500 --> 01:31:35,125
the river shark that presumably occurred somewhere in Borneo.

797
01:31:36,166 --> 01:31:42,208
So far, we had found one in 2005 in

798
01:31:42,208 --> 01:31:44,125
Southern Kalamantar, which is the

799
01:31:44,125 --> 01:31:48,333
southern coast of Borneo. And I was kind

800
01:31:48,333 --> 01:31:49,875
of just going to bash my way through the

801
01:31:49,875 --> 01:31:52,125
major rivers and look for freshwater

802
01:31:52,125 --> 01:31:53,125
stingrays while I was there.

803
01:31:54,166 --> 01:31:57,500
But I originally I put that project in to

804
01:31:57,500 --> 01:31:59,625
save our seas and I'd selected out three

805
01:31:59,625 --> 01:32:03,166
major areas to target. And then I kept

806
01:32:03,166 --> 01:32:05,208
just looking at North Kalamantar and this

807
01:32:05,208 --> 01:32:09,458
huge turbid delta estuary and just

808
01:32:09,458 --> 01:32:11,958
thinking that is exactly like where I

809
01:32:11,958 --> 01:32:13,125
find the sharks or PNG.

810
01:32:13,166 --> 01:32:17,333
But we had some advice and things that

811
01:32:17,333 --> 01:32:19,541
were glittery from rivers from other

812
01:32:19,541 --> 01:32:20,875
rivers from other systems

813
01:32:20,875 --> 01:32:22,958
to target those originally.

814
01:32:24,166 --> 01:32:26,291
But yeah, eventually I just went I got to

815
01:32:26,291 --> 01:32:28,583
go to North Kalamantar and they're going

816
01:32:28,583 --> 01:32:31,291
to be there. We went there, got out of

817
01:32:31,291 --> 01:32:33,250
the boat, went to a village, I had my

818
01:32:33,250 --> 01:32:34,750
salinity meter, 10

819
01:32:34,750 --> 01:32:36,125
parts per thousand. Perfect.

820
01:32:36,166 --> 01:32:38,500
Went and spoke to a fisherman, made you

821
01:32:38,500 --> 01:32:41,000
open the shark fins, pulled out a bag of

822
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:45,625
just clear as day, gliff as fins. And

823
01:32:45,625 --> 01:32:49,000
then we said, like you said, I got a half

824
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:50,125
of a commercial lump, I guess.

825
01:32:50,166 --> 01:32:53,625
I don't see it as a hash commodity or

826
01:32:53,625 --> 01:32:57,208
something we do, but we had him sort of

827
01:32:57,208 --> 01:32:59,083
just photographing his sharks. He'd punch

828
01:32:59,083 --> 01:33:02,625
and he caught one the next night. I think

829
01:33:02,625 --> 01:33:06,375
he caught four or twelve or something two

830
01:33:06,375 --> 01:33:07,458
nights later and then

831
01:33:07,458 --> 01:33:08,125
he caught four more.

832
01:33:08,166 --> 01:33:10,791
And then we're like, all right, you've

833
01:33:10,791 --> 01:33:12,541
clearly changed your fishing baby here

834
01:33:12,541 --> 01:33:15,875
and we cut that off. But yeah, I mean,

835
01:33:16,250 --> 01:33:19,666
abundant, you know, that's more of a

836
01:33:19,666 --> 01:33:21,458
gangeticus than have been

837
01:33:21,458 --> 01:33:24,500
documented since the 2000s.

838
01:33:24,500 --> 01:33:27,666
Yeah. Oh, yeah. We got that four nights

839
01:33:27,666 --> 01:33:32,375
of fishing. Yeah. So that was a win. We

840
01:33:32,375 --> 01:33:34,583
never found them in South Kalamantar. I

841
01:33:34,583 --> 01:33:36,291
was down there, went to some

842
01:33:36,291 --> 01:33:37,125
really good habitat, really.

843
01:33:37,166 --> 01:33:40,500
Well situated rivers, but I was there at

844
01:33:40,500 --> 01:33:42,416
the wrong time of the year. The trade

845
01:33:42,416 --> 01:33:45,541
wind was blowing south. They weren't

846
01:33:45,541 --> 01:33:49,583
really fishing with the nets. I think

847
01:33:49,583 --> 01:33:52,833
they're there. Have you done? Have you

848
01:33:52,833 --> 01:33:54,666
been able to do you or anyone been able

849
01:33:54,666 --> 01:33:56,125
to do much long term tracking?

850
01:33:56,166 --> 01:34:00,041
With these? I know Pete's done some stuff

851
01:34:00,041 --> 01:34:02,375
up in the Northern territories. Have you

852
01:34:02,375 --> 01:34:04,500
been able to do anything in Papua New

853
01:34:04,500 --> 01:34:08,375
Guinea or anything? I haven't. No, it's

854
01:34:08,375 --> 01:34:11,541
difficult because in Papua New Guinea, we

855
01:34:11,541 --> 01:34:13,500
can't really set up an acoustic array

856
01:34:13,500 --> 01:34:17,375
because one, those rivers get about 12

857
01:34:17,375 --> 01:34:18,375
meters of rain per

858
01:34:18,375 --> 01:34:19,125
year and the wet season.

859
01:34:19,166 --> 01:34:24,333
You know, if you put your stakes into the

860
01:34:24,333 --> 01:34:26,666
mud, they'd be on their way to Australia

861
01:34:26,666 --> 01:34:29,833
by the end of the wet season. The other

862
01:34:29,833 --> 01:34:31,958
thing too is that you sort of need to tie

863
01:34:31,958 --> 01:34:34,291
a float to the receiver to you

864
01:34:34,291 --> 01:34:35,125
know where to go and find it.

865
01:34:36,166 --> 01:34:41,333
Floats are big time commodity in the

866
01:34:41,333 --> 01:34:42,750
fishing villages apart from New Guinea.

867
01:34:43,041 --> 01:34:45,625
So, you know, they'd be someone would

868
01:34:45,625 --> 01:34:47,291
have come and cut them the next night if

869
01:34:47,291 --> 01:34:48,125
you if you're trying to do that.

870
01:34:49,166 --> 01:34:53,833
And yeah, so the short answer is no, but

871
01:34:53,833 --> 01:34:55,708
I know Pete at the moment will probably

872
01:34:55,708 --> 01:34:59,708
do it. I think they've been doing some

873
01:34:59,708 --> 01:35:01,791
sort of long term work in the.

874
01:35:03,166 --> 01:35:07,291
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, interesting. Well, I

875
01:35:07,291 --> 01:35:08,833
got to ask you, I know a little bit.

876
01:35:08,833 --> 01:35:11,125
How's it working in Papua New Guinea? I know there's challenges.

877
01:35:12,583 --> 01:35:16,500
I know there's challenges. Just research.

878
01:35:16,833 --> 01:35:17,458
Just yeah, just trying to

879
01:35:17,458 --> 01:35:20,333
get around and stay alive.

880
01:35:20,333 --> 01:35:25,000
It's yeah, I mean, you've got to have the

881
01:35:25,000 --> 01:35:27,541
right connections or it's impossible. The

882
01:35:27,541 --> 01:35:31,333
thing is I some areas of Papua New Guinea

883
01:35:31,333 --> 01:35:33,666
are quite easy and accessible when

884
01:35:33,666 --> 01:35:35,833
there's hotels and you know, it's no

885
01:35:35,833 --> 01:35:37,291
dramas like some of the islands

886
01:35:37,291 --> 01:35:39,166
particularly the northern coast.

887
01:35:41,166 --> 01:35:44,458
It's not really an issue. But in the Gulf

888
01:35:44,458 --> 01:35:46,875
Province and the Western Province,

889
01:35:47,125 --> 01:35:48,833
they're sort of the two most impoverished

890
01:35:48,833 --> 01:35:52,000
provinces of Papua New Guinea, which is

891
01:35:52,000 --> 01:35:53,750
somewhere, you know, in the bottom 10 of

892
01:35:55,833 --> 01:35:58,833
the world. So yeah, things are pretty

893
01:35:58,833 --> 01:36:00,916
hectic there. I can no electricity, no

894
01:36:00,916 --> 01:36:04,208
storage. And I was lucky I tripped over

895
01:36:04,208 --> 01:36:06,958
this lady, the Lani amaku, who I still

896
01:36:06,958 --> 01:36:08,125
work very, very closely with.

897
01:36:09,166 --> 01:36:13,375
And she runs an NGO and had been working

898
01:36:13,375 --> 01:36:16,166
on the turtles in Southern New Guinea.

899
01:36:16,958 --> 01:36:19,458
And I sort of hijacked that NGO and

900
01:36:19,458 --> 01:36:21,500
pumped in a bunch of shark funding and

901
01:36:21,500 --> 01:36:23,375
the ashes of P-injuries

902
01:36:23,375 --> 01:36:24,125
primary shark experts.

903
01:36:24,166 --> 01:36:30,375
But yeah, I mean, her having her social

904
01:36:30,375 --> 01:36:33,125
capital has she been working the area for

905
01:36:33,125 --> 01:36:36,791
probably about eight years before I sort

906
01:36:36,791 --> 01:36:39,958
of inquired about her. So yeah, it's very

907
01:36:39,958 --> 01:36:44,083
proud, customary heritage and the

908
01:36:44,083 --> 01:36:48,791
government's have very little social

909
01:36:48,791 --> 01:36:49,916
capital in those areas.

910
01:36:50,166 --> 01:36:53,041
So it's, you know, if the communities

911
01:36:53,041 --> 01:36:55,250
don't want you there, that'll be very

912
01:36:55,250 --> 01:36:59,125
clear. Yeah, but she she she kind of acts

913
01:36:59,125 --> 01:37:02,291
as this conduit between the customary

914
01:37:02,291 --> 01:37:04,125
governance and the national governments.

915
01:37:04,166 --> 01:37:07,041
And, you know, there's a lot of back and

916
01:37:07,041 --> 01:37:08,541
forth between the national

917
01:37:08,541 --> 01:37:11,666
fisheries authority, the sea

918
01:37:11,666 --> 01:37:13,333
and the conservation and the

919
01:37:13,333 --> 01:37:14,833
environmental protection authority. And

920
01:37:14,833 --> 01:37:17,958
yeah, she, yeah, she does amazing things

921
01:37:17,958 --> 01:37:20,250
for a whole range of species and a whole

922
01:37:20,250 --> 01:37:21,000
range of communities.

923
01:37:22,166 --> 01:37:26,125
Yeah, I mean, if I never met her, who

924
01:37:26,125 --> 01:37:28,125
knows what would have happened to my PhD?

925
01:37:28,541 --> 01:37:33,000
And she will. Yeah, and to get to some of

926
01:37:33,000 --> 01:37:34,958
the rivers we've got to like some of the

927
01:37:34,958 --> 01:37:35,750
rivers we surveyed

928
01:37:35,750 --> 01:37:36,833
had never been surveyed.

929
01:37:37,625 --> 01:37:40,750
And that's these villages and the kids

930
01:37:40,750 --> 01:37:43,166
haven't seen black people before. And you

931
01:37:43,166 --> 01:37:46,000
know, touching the hair and this at any

932
01:37:46,000 --> 01:37:48,291
given time, you got 60% of the people in

933
01:37:48,291 --> 01:37:51,416
the room just intently staring at you and

934
01:37:51,416 --> 01:37:54,583
an amazing experience.

935
01:37:55,166 --> 01:37:57,166
Yeah, I've had that I've had those

936
01:37:57,166 --> 01:37:58,583
experiences where they all the little

937
01:37:58,583 --> 01:37:59,833
kids are falling around the village.

938
01:38:00,625 --> 01:38:02,208
Because they're seeing, yeah, it's like I

939
01:38:02,208 --> 01:38:03,958
have blue eyes, blue eyes, they just then

940
01:38:03,958 --> 01:38:05,708
they're just really like locked into like

941
01:38:05,708 --> 01:38:08,708
they're gonna never seen anybody like,

942
01:38:08,708 --> 01:38:10,333
let alone, they haven't seen a white

943
01:38:10,333 --> 01:38:10,958
person, let alone

944
01:38:10,958 --> 01:38:11,958
someone with light eyes.

945
01:38:12,500 --> 01:38:14,500
That's just really, it's just it's quite

946
01:38:14,500 --> 01:38:15,500
like if you come a

947
01:38:15,500 --> 01:38:16,750
sideshow for the village.

948
01:38:17,166 --> 01:38:20,208
And one of one of the amazing things

949
01:38:20,208 --> 01:38:22,458
about doing work and pop on New Guinea,

950
01:38:22,875 --> 01:38:26,333
and then going to Borneo was like the

951
01:38:26,333 --> 01:38:28,583
human development in Borneo in these

952
01:38:28,583 --> 01:38:30,458
remote regard villages was

953
01:38:30,458 --> 01:38:32,125
amazing, absolutely amazing.

954
01:38:32,166 --> 01:38:34,250
They've got electricity, most of them

955
01:38:34,250 --> 01:38:36,666
have sort of running water, they built

956
01:38:36,666 --> 01:38:39,583
these roads up on the mangroves, just on

957
01:38:39,583 --> 01:38:42,750
like wooden slats, motorbikes and stuff

958
01:38:42,750 --> 01:38:44,541
like, I was blown away.

959
01:38:45,041 --> 01:38:47,666
But the difference was, they, I was also

960
01:38:47,666 --> 01:38:49,625
very surprised about their lack of

961
01:38:49,625 --> 01:38:52,666
exposure to sort of Western people. So

962
01:38:52,666 --> 01:38:54,583
same thing, I'd get to these villages and

963
01:38:54,583 --> 01:38:56,291
they'd be like, you know, oh my god,

964
01:38:56,291 --> 01:38:58,166
there's a white guy here and but the

965
01:38:58,166 --> 01:39:00,291
difference was in Indonesia, everyone's

966
01:39:00,291 --> 01:39:01,125
got phones and tik tok and Facebook.

967
01:39:01,166 --> 01:39:05,208
So you'd end up with a crowd of people

968
01:39:05,208 --> 01:39:07,458
just filming you and everyone wants a

969
01:39:07,458 --> 01:39:10,291
photo and whether in PNG, it was, you

970
01:39:10,291 --> 01:39:11,458
know, you're a ghost, you

971
01:39:11,458 --> 01:39:13,083
were kind of to be avoided.

972
01:39:13,541 --> 01:39:16,375
But look that so yeah, it was a very

973
01:39:16,375 --> 01:39:19,125
different, interesting kind of dynamic.

974
01:39:19,833 --> 01:39:23,375
Yeah, yeah. So I got I got to ask you,

975
01:39:23,875 --> 01:39:26,000
because this was one of the probably one

976
01:39:26,000 --> 01:39:28,375
of the if I had to pick a lot one of the

977
01:39:28,375 --> 01:39:29,875
sort of my top 10 law

978
01:39:29,875 --> 01:39:30,125
sharks, I'd like to have

979
01:39:30,166 --> 01:39:33,291
seen I know you guys came across recently

980
01:39:33,291 --> 01:39:36,458
the sail fin hound shark gogoli. Yeah,

981
01:39:36,458 --> 01:39:41,000
that was can you share much about that?

982
01:39:41,250 --> 01:39:45,541
Right? About that? Oh, yeah, I mean,

983
01:39:45,541 --> 01:39:48,375
we're on the paper, we're just waiting on

984
01:39:48,375 --> 01:39:52,250
it to come back from reviews. Well, I

985
01:39:52,250 --> 01:39:54,750
hope I'm not I hope I'm hoping I give

986
01:39:54,750 --> 01:39:56,208
anything away, but I reviewed it like

987
01:39:56,208 --> 01:39:58,125
about five weeks ago and sent it back. So

988
01:39:58,125 --> 01:39:58,458
I don't know what

989
01:39:58,458 --> 01:39:59,166
happened to it. All right.

990
01:40:00,250 --> 01:40:04,541
Well, yeah, I can't remember the story

991
01:40:04,541 --> 01:40:07,291
with that. So I had known Jack suggests

992
01:40:07,291 --> 01:40:09,500
some guy, I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing

993
01:40:09,500 --> 01:40:11,291
that right. But he he was working for

994
01:40:11,291 --> 01:40:15,083
WWF, the PNG office. And he was actually

995
01:40:15,083 --> 01:40:17,291
going to come on one of my expeditions

996
01:40:17,291 --> 01:40:19,625
back in 2018 or something that he

997
01:40:19,625 --> 01:40:20,583
couldn't in the end.

998
01:40:21,166 --> 01:40:23,291
And we sort of loosely kept in touch. And

999
01:40:23,291 --> 01:40:26,375
then, um, yeah, just one day scrolling

1000
01:40:26,375 --> 01:40:28,458
Twitter of all things. And it's like,

1001
01:40:28,458 --> 01:40:30,833
Jack's made this post of some people

1002
01:40:30,833 --> 01:40:32,250
having sailed back and

1003
01:40:32,250 --> 01:40:33,125
shot for dinner tonight.

1004
01:40:33,166 --> 01:40:36,666
I just said, like, blank picture. And

1005
01:40:36,666 --> 01:40:39,125
then, um, yeah, I followed him up. I

1006
01:40:39,125 --> 01:40:41,208
think I'd see see willing. And we're

1007
01:40:41,208 --> 01:40:44,000
like, you know, what and where and you

1008
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:46,416
know, more info please. And yeah, it was

1009
01:40:46,416 --> 01:40:49,000
like, we're doing some monitoring off my

1010
01:40:49,000 --> 01:40:50,250
dang. So as any exact

1011
01:40:50,250 --> 01:40:52,000
same place that that holotype

1012
01:40:52,166 --> 01:40:58,750
for being found and yeah, then a few more

1013
01:40:58,750 --> 01:41:00,583
pictures have come through. There's a

1014
01:41:00,583 --> 01:41:03,250
pregnant female that had like, I remember

1015
01:41:03,250 --> 01:41:05,916
the exact number like eight yoked over or

1016
01:41:05,916 --> 01:41:08,666
something. I know the total type. The

1017
01:41:08,666 --> 01:41:09,875
original one was it was a pregnant

1018
01:41:09,875 --> 01:41:13,583
female. And then, um, and that was and so

1019
01:41:13,583 --> 01:41:16,791
you found some more pregnant females. At

1020
01:41:16,791 --> 01:41:19,500
least one. Yeah, I think.

1021
01:41:20,375 --> 01:41:22,333
Yeah, I'm just trying. I haven't read

1022
01:41:22,333 --> 01:41:24,250
that. You know, when you're on a paper

1023
01:41:24,250 --> 01:41:27,208
and you forget what it's about. Yeah, I

1024
01:41:27,208 --> 01:41:29,875
think we had six animals in total. And I

1025
01:41:29,875 --> 01:41:31,666
think they're all adults, which is

1026
01:41:31,666 --> 01:41:33,333
interesting because there's a bit of a

1027
01:41:33,333 --> 01:41:35,750
funny. Yeah, the geography

1028
01:41:35,750 --> 01:41:37,125
of that Bay is a bit funny.

1029
01:41:37,166 --> 01:41:39,083
The city, the city, the channel that runs

1030
01:41:39,083 --> 01:41:41,708
right into the coast is there's almost no

1031
01:41:41,708 --> 01:41:46,541
continental shelf. Yeah, less than a

1032
01:41:46,541 --> 01:41:48,541
kilometer wide in some places. So there's

1033
01:41:48,541 --> 01:41:51,000
this kind of ravine that runs in and

1034
01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:52,458
they're clearly coming in.

1035
01:41:53,083 --> 01:41:58,041
They all been colleague around 200 meters

1036
01:41:58,041 --> 01:42:00,000
or so 200 250 meters,

1037
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:01,250
something like that kind of deep.

1038
01:42:02,708 --> 01:42:07,250
I think, um, nothing the ones just called

1039
01:42:07,250 --> 01:42:09,375
recently where some 80 meters or

1040
01:42:09,375 --> 01:42:13,083
something. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I

1041
01:42:13,083 --> 01:42:16,250
think the original way I think, you know,

1042
01:42:16,250 --> 01:42:18,041
do you know who described the genus the

1043
01:42:18,041 --> 01:42:20,291
genus for people listening? It's the

1044
01:42:20,291 --> 01:42:21,333
family's triacodie and

1045
01:42:21,333 --> 01:42:23,166
the genus is a gogolia.

1046
01:42:23,166 --> 01:42:24,583
You know, you know

1047
01:42:24,583 --> 01:42:25,458
who described the genus.

1048
01:42:26,708 --> 01:42:31,333
No, file. No, file would I was the name.

1049
01:42:31,333 --> 01:42:33,000
Anyway, Leonard Kupan to describe the

1050
01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:36,041
genus when he was a PhD student. Right.

1051
01:42:36,375 --> 01:42:39,125
Okay. They went back to the California. I

1052
01:42:39,125 --> 01:42:40,375
had to bring that up after talking about

1053
01:42:40,375 --> 01:42:41,958
the glyphosate and Leonard story with the

1054
01:42:41,958 --> 01:42:44,375
glyphosate and then this sale and

1055
01:42:44,375 --> 01:42:46,625
houndshark comes up that he, he actually

1056
01:42:46,625 --> 01:42:47,791
described the genus and

1057
01:42:47,791 --> 01:42:49,125
it was foul wood was it.

1058
01:42:49,166 --> 01:42:52,791
He was it. What is connection was if he

1059
01:42:52,791 --> 01:42:54,958
was the one that collected it or found it

1060
01:42:54,958 --> 01:42:58,083
or, um, I forget what his connection was

1061
01:42:58,083 --> 01:43:00,625
with it. But, um, anyway, yeah, I thought

1062
01:43:00,625 --> 01:43:01,958
that was kind of interesting. That was

1063
01:43:01,958 --> 01:43:04,416
another bit of an interesting connection

1064
01:43:04,416 --> 01:43:06,208
with it with that one. But yeah, that

1065
01:43:06,208 --> 01:43:08,333
was, I had to pick one of my top 10 ones.

1066
01:43:08,333 --> 01:43:09,375
That would have been one of the ones I

1067
01:43:09,375 --> 01:43:10,958
would have been loved to have been in on

1068
01:43:10,958 --> 01:43:13,375
finding that one. That was such a

1069
01:43:13,375 --> 01:43:16,125
bizarre, bizarre thing.

1070
01:43:16,166 --> 01:43:20,000
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So

1071
01:43:20,000 --> 01:43:22,833
it's a lot of work to do on for a lot of

1072
01:43:22,833 --> 01:43:26,291
species in a lot of areas. Yeah. Oh yeah.

1073
01:43:26,291 --> 01:43:31,125
Easy 80, 90% of the things. All you need

1074
01:43:31,125 --> 01:43:32,125
to do is just go on and find the species

1075
01:43:32,125 --> 01:43:32,666
and then find the species

1076
01:43:32,666 --> 01:43:37,125
and then find the species.

1077
01:43:38,166 --> 01:43:40,500
Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of work to do

1078
01:43:40,500 --> 01:43:42,708
for a lot of spaces in a lot of areas.

1079
01:43:42,708 --> 01:43:45,958
Yeah. Oh yeah. Easy 80, 90% of the things

1080
01:43:45,958 --> 01:43:47,666
all you need to do is just actually go

1081
01:43:47,666 --> 01:43:50,208
out to the areas where they may occur and

1082
01:43:50,208 --> 01:43:52,625
you'll find them. But a lot of the areas

1083
01:43:52,625 --> 01:43:53,958
like you just explained

1084
01:43:53,958 --> 01:43:55,125
are not easy to get to.

1085
01:43:55,166 --> 01:43:57,041
And there's not a lot of people willing

1086
01:43:57,041 --> 01:43:58,416
to go to a lot of those areas. But if you

1087
01:43:58,416 --> 01:44:00,500
go there, you can certainly find them.

1088
01:44:01,125 --> 01:44:05,250
That was, that's definitely true. There's

1089
01:44:05,250 --> 01:44:06,500
a few that are really, you got to be

1090
01:44:06,500 --> 01:44:08,875
really lucky to see. But yeah, that's

1091
01:44:08,875 --> 01:44:11,000
pretty cool. Well, I'll be, hopefully you

1092
01:44:11,000 --> 01:44:12,291
guys, that's just the beginning of a

1093
01:44:12,291 --> 01:44:13,750
story there. You guys will find, get some

1094
01:44:13,750 --> 01:44:14,791
more. Maybe you'll actually learn a

1095
01:44:14,791 --> 01:44:17,208
little something more about the species.

1096
01:44:17,208 --> 01:44:18,833
Because you only find it from what you

1097
01:44:18,833 --> 01:44:20,458
told me, just this one location there.

1098
01:44:22,250 --> 01:44:25,625
Yeah, I think I'm Jack. Unfortunately,

1099
01:44:25,625 --> 01:44:29,166
he's been his role has changed and I

1100
01:44:29,166 --> 01:44:31,250
think he's back in Port Moresby and

1101
01:44:31,250 --> 01:44:33,125
working in central province or something.

1102
01:44:33,375 --> 01:44:36,083
So I unfortunately, I'm not sure how much

1103
01:44:36,083 --> 01:44:37,875
ongoing fisheries kind

1104
01:44:37,875 --> 01:44:38,958
of works happening in the.

1105
01:44:40,166 --> 01:44:42,041
Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, it's one for the

1106
01:44:42,041 --> 01:44:45,666
future. Yeah, we'll see. Yeah. Again,

1107
01:44:45,666 --> 01:44:47,041
just for people listening there, if you

1108
01:44:47,041 --> 01:44:49,416
go, go check out the sail

1109
01:44:49,416 --> 01:44:50,166
fin hound shark and it's.

1110
01:44:51,250 --> 01:44:54,333
Gogolia foul wood. I check, check that

1111
01:44:54,333 --> 01:44:56,125
out. If you get a chance, it's a really,

1112
01:44:56,125 --> 01:44:59,500
it's a really cool looking shark. And if

1113
01:44:59,500 --> 01:45:01,125
you go online, you can find pictures of

1114
01:45:01,125 --> 01:45:03,541
it. I think, I think. And there is Mick

1115
01:45:03,541 --> 01:45:05,375
Mick has a paper coming out on it. So

1116
01:45:05,375 --> 01:45:07,708
look for that. And I think it's a, I

1117
01:45:07,708 --> 01:45:08,458
think it's a journal fish

1118
01:45:08,458 --> 01:45:10,500
biology will be in, I believe. So.

1119
01:45:11,458 --> 01:45:13,500
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I

1120
01:45:13,500 --> 01:45:14,666
did. And I did not hold it.

1121
01:45:15,875 --> 01:45:20,000
I did. Yeah. Jack's paper. Very, I'm very

1122
01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:22,541
much just a attacking author on that one.

1123
01:45:22,541 --> 01:45:24,500
But yeah, really happy to see Jack.

1124
01:45:25,166 --> 01:45:27,750
Oh, that's, that's really, that's really

1125
01:45:27,750 --> 01:45:29,416
cool. So what are there? One of the

1126
01:45:29,416 --> 01:45:32,166
things you have going on now, you're,

1127
01:45:32,166 --> 01:45:34,750
you're based in Bali, right? And so

1128
01:45:34,750 --> 01:45:37,250
what's your, you're going to Borneo now

1129
01:45:37,250 --> 01:45:38,708
is a lot of, a lot of your effort

1130
01:45:38,708 --> 01:45:39,166
research effort now.

1131
01:45:41,208 --> 01:45:45,000
Yeah, so I guess, yeah, jumping back into

1132
01:45:45,000 --> 01:45:47,750
my life story. So the, the PNG stuff kind

1133
01:45:47,750 --> 01:45:50,958
of finished up, brought up the thesis,

1134
01:45:51,916 --> 01:45:53,208
Colin moved to Hobart.

1135
01:45:54,166 --> 01:45:57,458
And then, yeah, Andrew Chin and I were

1136
01:45:57,458 --> 01:46:00,458
kind of left it. JC, you sort of, you

1137
01:46:00,458 --> 01:46:01,833
know, looking at each other like what

1138
01:46:01,833 --> 01:46:05,500
next? And then, yeah, to Andrew's credit,

1139
01:46:05,833 --> 01:46:08,250
he, you know, been working really closely

1140
01:46:08,250 --> 01:46:10,291
with him now for the

1141
01:46:10,291 --> 01:46:11,625
last five years, I guess.

1142
01:46:13,458 --> 01:46:15,833
And yeah, he's, he's put some really big

1143
01:46:15,833 --> 01:46:19,166
yards into kind of get this fish and

1144
01:46:19,166 --> 01:46:23,166
fisheries lab at JCU, not only to keep

1145
01:46:23,166 --> 01:46:27,000
going, but yeah, sort of become a magnet

1146
01:46:27,000 --> 01:46:29,041
for all these students and things and

1147
01:46:29,041 --> 01:46:31,000
build projects and try and support

1148
01:46:31,000 --> 01:46:32,416
postdocs and things.

1149
01:46:32,416 --> 01:46:35,291
So yeah, credit, credit to Andrew, but,

1150
01:46:35,291 --> 01:46:38,000
um, yeah, so I guess I hung around for

1151
01:46:38,000 --> 01:46:40,000
the ride with him and helped supervise

1152
01:46:40,000 --> 01:46:41,125
some students and things.

1153
01:46:41,166 --> 01:46:45,000
And then we were, funnily enough, the

1154
01:46:45,000 --> 01:46:49,000
week COVID broke out, which was in

1155
01:46:49,000 --> 01:46:51,458
Australia anyway, you know, circa March

1156
01:46:51,458 --> 01:46:54,666
2020, Keystone Grants, we'll say that our

1157
01:46:54,666 --> 01:46:57,125
seeds were due in a few weeks.

1158
01:46:57,166 --> 01:46:59,250
And Andrew and I were up in Cooktown

1159
01:46:59,250 --> 01:47:02,333
doing some work on freshwater mussels and

1160
01:47:02,333 --> 01:47:05,625
all things with an indigenous group. And

1161
01:47:05,625 --> 01:47:09,333
yeah, we just kind of got talking about

1162
01:47:09,333 --> 01:47:13,958
Indonesia and Asia generally and, and I,

1163
01:47:14,416 --> 01:47:17,250
Simeon had sent me a photo of this

1164
01:47:18,166 --> 01:47:21,333
fish fin from a river in Borneo. And I

1165
01:47:21,333 --> 01:47:24,000
was like, you know, let's, let's go find

1166
01:47:24,000 --> 01:47:25,958
them. And we put together this Keystone

1167
01:47:25,958 --> 01:47:30,166
project, got the funding by then COVID

1168
01:47:30,166 --> 01:47:31,541
had shut the world down.

1169
01:47:33,333 --> 01:47:35,000
Indonesia sort of slammed its borders

1170
01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:37,125
shut as to Australia, so we couldn't get

1171
01:47:37,125 --> 01:47:38,875
out of the country. So that project

1172
01:47:38,875 --> 01:47:40,416
actually got delayed by

1173
01:47:40,416 --> 01:47:41,583
sort of two and a half years.

1174
01:47:42,166 --> 01:47:43,458
I'd like these are.

1175
01:47:44,291 --> 01:47:49,208
So yeah, in that time helped out Andrew

1176
01:47:49,208 --> 01:47:52,041
sort of building up the lab again, had

1177
01:47:52,041 --> 01:47:53,083
some really good students.

1178
01:47:57,458 --> 01:48:00,916
Yeah, and then 2023 I could finally get

1179
01:48:00,916 --> 01:48:02,666
into the country and I was going to do

1180
01:48:02,666 --> 01:48:05,000
that project like I wanted to do one trip

1181
01:48:05,000 --> 01:48:07,541
per year so sort of one month on a trip a

1182
01:48:07,541 --> 01:48:10,875
year different problems each time.

1183
01:48:11,166 --> 01:48:12,875
And that was going to be the project but

1184
01:48:12,875 --> 01:48:14,958
with the delays, you know, we had all

1185
01:48:14,958 --> 01:48:16,583
this money and you know this compressed

1186
01:48:16,583 --> 01:48:20,083
time. I just took a year when lived

1187
01:48:20,083 --> 01:48:22,000
between sort of lazy

1188
01:48:22,000 --> 01:48:23,416
which is where my host is.

1189
01:48:26,333 --> 01:48:28,541
And yeah, it's been the, it's been the

1190
01:48:28,541 --> 01:48:30,000
year traveling back and forth between

1191
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:32,500
Borneo and so the lazy looking for fresh

1192
01:48:32,500 --> 01:48:35,250
water rays and river sharks and yeah

1193
01:48:35,250 --> 01:48:37,708
doing a lot of interviews. I mean, that

1194
01:48:37,708 --> 01:48:41,166
project wasn't so much me leading it was

1195
01:48:41,166 --> 01:48:44,833
more I was training people at

1196
01:48:45,708 --> 01:48:47,583
Hasenu, the university or local

1197
01:48:47,583 --> 01:48:50,333
universities in province revisited in and

1198
01:48:50,333 --> 01:48:52,375
out to sit down with a fisherman for

1199
01:48:52,375 --> 01:48:55,458
social survey, things like that. And then

1200
01:48:55,458 --> 01:48:56,583
they kind of did the

1201
01:48:56,583 --> 01:48:59,416
research like I was present.

1202
01:48:59,833 --> 01:49:01,000
I was very much a

1203
01:49:01,000 --> 01:49:02,708
capacity building project.

1204
01:49:06,833 --> 01:49:09,375
Have you found any other really, have you

1205
01:49:09,375 --> 01:49:10,791
found any other really cool like you

1206
01:49:10,791 --> 01:49:13,625
mentioned like a river stingrays and some

1207
01:49:13,625 --> 01:49:17,625
some fresh fresh water riverine singer if

1208
01:49:17,625 --> 01:49:19,458
any interesting any

1209
01:49:19,458 --> 01:49:21,791
interesting species in that group.

1210
01:49:22,708 --> 01:49:23,708
Oh, interesting.

1211
01:49:24,541 --> 01:49:25,750
I know that.

1212
01:49:27,583 --> 01:49:28,916
They're all interesting.

1213
01:49:29,750 --> 01:49:33,625
Oh, I realize that but anything stand out

1214
01:49:33,625 --> 01:49:34,916
that you thought well this was a pretty

1215
01:49:34,916 --> 01:49:38,416
this was pretty, pretty awesome fine. It

1216
01:49:38,416 --> 01:49:41,166
was, it was pretty cool seeing a movie

1217
01:49:41,166 --> 01:49:42,750
trigon oxy wrinkles.

1218
01:49:43,166 --> 01:49:44,958
And I think that's the first time they've

1219
01:49:44,958 --> 01:49:48,291
ever the model with brain, which it is in

1220
01:49:48,291 --> 01:49:49,916
a small body. I think they were getting

1221
01:49:49,916 --> 01:49:52,291
about 38 centimeters this way.

1222
01:50:10,166 --> 01:50:10,833
So we're going to go to the east coast of

1223
01:50:10,833 --> 01:50:13,583
Borneo and then into the south. And we

1224
01:50:13,583 --> 01:50:16,000
only found the full the trigonals south.

1225
01:50:17,333 --> 01:50:20,125
They don't really occur on that east

1226
01:50:20,125 --> 01:50:21,166
coast man because there's

1227
01:50:21,166 --> 01:50:22,583
not much continental shelf.

1228
01:50:23,416 --> 01:50:25,541
Yeah, it's not really that's a way to

1229
01:50:25,541 --> 01:50:27,166
spread around there.

1230
01:50:30,166 --> 01:50:32,666
I mean surprisingly good numbers in in

1231
01:50:32,666 --> 01:50:35,000
the southern parts of Borneo there, which

1232
01:50:35,000 --> 01:50:38,583
prior to that work, you know, we kind of

1233
01:50:38,583 --> 01:50:40,625
a shoes they have heard there that we

1234
01:50:40,625 --> 01:50:42,125
didn't really have solid evidence.

1235
01:50:42,500 --> 01:50:43,958
So that was good to see. It's good to see

1236
01:50:43,958 --> 01:50:47,000
some healthy populations and dry and

1237
01:50:47,000 --> 01:50:49,041
freshwater with braids. I mean, they were

1238
01:50:49,041 --> 01:50:51,125
they were pretty

1239
01:50:51,125 --> 01:50:53,500
abundant. We saw a lot of them.

1240
01:50:54,166 --> 01:50:56,875
And they were amazing. They're big, big

1241
01:50:56,875 --> 01:50:59,208
animals. I actually just to go on a

1242
01:50:59,208 --> 01:51:02,500
tangent, I said, Zeb Hogan, who used to

1243
01:51:02,500 --> 01:51:03,708
run a show called mega

1244
01:51:03,708 --> 01:51:05,041
fish National Geographic.

1245
01:51:06,000 --> 01:51:09,166
He's been working up in the Mekong for a

1246
01:51:09,166 --> 01:51:13,333
number of years, and they caught a giant

1247
01:51:13,333 --> 01:51:15,875
freshwater whipprai that weighed in at

1248
01:51:15,875 --> 01:51:20,125
300 kilos or something, which was the

1249
01:51:20,125 --> 01:51:22,666
largest verifiable

1250
01:51:22,666 --> 01:51:25,375
freshwater fish on record.

1251
01:51:26,166 --> 01:51:29,625
So that includes as well. Undoubtedly

1252
01:51:29,625 --> 01:51:31,458
that species gets bigger than that. But

1253
01:51:31,458 --> 01:51:32,541
this is the largest.

1254
01:51:33,125 --> 01:51:37,583
So, yeah, I actually went up to Cambodia

1255
01:51:37,583 --> 01:51:40,791
and I'm from the end of two thousand

1256
01:51:40,791 --> 01:51:43,458
twenty three for the Guinness World

1257
01:51:43,458 --> 01:51:45,958
Record presentation and the other had all

1258
01:51:45,958 --> 01:51:49,541
this footage and things of this huge

1259
01:51:49,541 --> 01:51:51,125
animal like, you know, I

1260
01:51:51,125 --> 01:51:52,791
think it's 230 centimeter.

1261
01:51:53,541 --> 01:51:59,750
This is 300 kilo. Just absolutely. I

1262
01:51:59,750 --> 01:52:02,708
don't think people realize how much a lot

1263
01:52:02,708 --> 01:52:05,166
of these stingrays they get quite large

1264
01:52:05,166 --> 01:52:07,000
like like this when you're talking about

1265
01:52:07,000 --> 01:52:08,125
them and they get so big.

1266
01:52:08,375 --> 01:52:09,625
And I don't think most people realize

1267
01:52:09,625 --> 01:52:11,083
just how big a lot of these stingrays

1268
01:52:11,083 --> 01:52:13,000
get. They tend to think focus more on the

1269
01:52:13,000 --> 01:52:14,583
big sharks. But these stingrays get

1270
01:52:14,583 --> 01:52:17,791
pretty massive. Some of the species, some

1271
01:52:17,791 --> 01:52:18,708
of the species with them.

1272
01:52:20,166 --> 01:52:22,541
Yeah. And I think once once they get that

1273
01:52:22,541 --> 01:52:26,083
big, I think they just kind of escape the

1274
01:52:26,083 --> 01:52:28,625
fishery in a sense that there's no gear

1275
01:52:28,625 --> 01:52:30,125
that can hold on to them, which is why

1276
01:52:30,125 --> 01:52:32,291
they're not seen because a lot of these

1277
01:52:32,291 --> 01:52:35,333
kind of more developing nation states.

1278
01:52:36,166 --> 01:52:39,833
It's unusual to see people using big

1279
01:52:39,833 --> 01:52:42,791
hawks with really strong line in an intro

1280
01:52:42,791 --> 01:52:45,875
setting. It's all gill nets and trawl and

1281
01:52:45,875 --> 01:52:49,166
other methods like that. So, yeah, I

1282
01:52:49,166 --> 01:52:51,583
think once some of these rays get to a

1283
01:52:51,583 --> 01:52:53,708
certain size, they kind of get a bit of

1284
01:52:53,708 --> 01:52:56,125
protection just because they found out if

1285
01:52:56,125 --> 01:52:57,041
we get caught, but

1286
01:52:57,041 --> 01:52:58,125
probably just break the mirror.

1287
01:52:59,166 --> 01:53:01,458
Yeah. Have you spent much time traveling

1288
01:53:01,458 --> 01:53:04,541
around through like Southeast Asia, like

1289
01:53:04,541 --> 01:53:07,083
Cambodia mentioned and Vietnam and that

1290
01:53:07,083 --> 01:53:08,125
part of the world much?

1291
01:53:09,500 --> 01:53:11,000
Not a whole lot. Yeah, I haven't done

1292
01:53:11,000 --> 01:53:15,500
much in mainland Asia. I kind of want to,

1293
01:53:15,500 --> 01:53:17,333
but yeah, it's one of those areas where

1294
01:53:17,333 --> 01:53:19,833
there's unfortunately probably not a

1295
01:53:19,833 --> 01:53:24,333
whole lot left. I am still in contact

1296
01:53:24,333 --> 01:53:26,041
with Zepogon. So we've got a

1297
01:53:26,041 --> 01:53:27,166
student who's going to do a

1298
01:53:28,166 --> 01:53:29,583
sort of a vulnerability

1299
01:53:29,583 --> 01:53:31,333
assessment of the meek holes.

1300
01:53:31,666 --> 01:53:34,666
Mega for working with him.

1301
01:53:35,166 --> 01:53:37,666
Maybe our main is some looking forward to

1302
01:53:37,666 --> 01:53:39,958
that. I think that, you know, if we can

1303
01:53:39,958 --> 01:53:43,875
get some more work on the rays because

1304
01:53:43,875 --> 01:53:46,041
the other, you know, Ray that we know

1305
01:53:46,041 --> 01:53:47,125
nothing about is the meek hole.

1306
01:53:47,166 --> 01:53:51,125
Which is this fresh water thing that's

1307
01:53:51,125 --> 01:53:52,291
hardly ever recorded.

1308
01:53:52,625 --> 01:53:55,291
You know, who knows what the story is

1309
01:53:55,291 --> 01:53:56,833
without species and

1310
01:53:56,833 --> 01:53:57,916
there's a group up in nothing.

1311
01:53:58,166 --> 01:54:01,875
Get onto a few of those. So they're still

1312
01:54:01,875 --> 01:54:02,708
there anyway. There's

1313
01:54:02,708 --> 01:54:04,291
still a population. Yeah.

1314
01:54:05,166 --> 01:54:07,166
The meek holes just go. Yeah.

1315
01:54:08,166 --> 01:54:10,666
I think that part of the world, there's

1316
01:54:10,666 --> 01:54:13,500
like almost nothing, nothing known about

1317
01:54:13,500 --> 01:54:16,000
any of the sharks rays, anything like

1318
01:54:16,000 --> 01:54:17,583
that. So there'd be a high area. You

1319
01:54:17,583 --> 01:54:19,000
could find some things that maybe haven't

1320
01:54:19,000 --> 01:54:20,083
been seen for a while.

1321
01:54:20,833 --> 01:54:22,625
So literally some of the large sharks in

1322
01:54:22,625 --> 01:54:26,625
that area. And I mean, I'd be interested

1323
01:54:26,625 --> 01:54:30,833
just last thing on the meek hole. So the

1324
01:54:30,833 --> 01:54:33,291
marbled with pray for the

1325
01:54:33,291 --> 01:54:35,083
trigonoxyrhynchus is talking about

1326
01:54:35,083 --> 01:54:36,541
before. So that was actually

1327
01:54:36,541 --> 01:54:37,166
described from the specimen.

1328
01:54:48,416 --> 01:54:56,833
And then there's a set of jaws that were

1329
01:54:56,833 --> 01:55:01,250
presumably collected off an island, which

1330
01:55:01,250 --> 01:55:03,541
I think aligned with

1331
01:55:03,541 --> 01:55:04,125
the glyphous glyphous.

1332
01:55:04,166 --> 01:55:09,625
Yeah. So, you know, it's a system that

1333
01:55:09,625 --> 01:55:11,416
would have and of course, large-shaped

1334
01:55:11,416 --> 01:55:13,333
sawfish used to be in the system.

1335
01:55:13,583 --> 01:55:17,833
I was going to ask you about the sawfish

1336
01:55:17,833 --> 01:55:20,291
because there are people studying. Do

1337
01:55:20,291 --> 01:55:22,833
you, whether it's in P and G or Borneo,

1338
01:55:23,083 --> 01:55:24,125
do you come across sawfish very often?

1339
01:55:25,166 --> 01:55:29,375
Yeah, I mean, P and G, well, the funny

1340
01:55:29,375 --> 01:55:33,041
thing with P and G is I got there just as

1341
01:55:33,041 --> 01:55:36,416
this fish more fishery was taking roots.

1342
01:55:37,291 --> 01:55:40,666
So the I guess the fishing history in

1343
01:55:40,666 --> 01:55:43,500
Papua New Guinea was they tended not to

1344
01:55:43,500 --> 01:55:45,125
really do much fishing.

1345
01:55:46,166 --> 01:55:47,833
They'd use some sort of indiscriminate

1346
01:55:47,833 --> 01:55:50,583
traps and things. And, you know, the

1347
01:55:50,583 --> 01:55:53,666
productivity of the estuary in Southern P

1348
01:55:53,666 --> 01:55:56,583
and G has just so good that it's so easy

1349
01:55:56,583 --> 01:56:00,083
to catch fish. So, yeah, up until sort of

1350
01:56:00,083 --> 01:56:03,000
2010, they just didn't really use nets or

1351
01:56:03,000 --> 01:56:05,583
any trolls or anything that was

1352
01:56:05,583 --> 01:56:07,000
destructive because it

1353
01:56:07,000 --> 01:56:08,125
was that easy to get fish.

1354
01:56:09,166 --> 01:56:14,041
And then, and so just a further context

1355
01:56:14,041 --> 01:56:16,583
that I think in the 1990s, the government

1356
01:56:16,583 --> 01:56:19,291
actually gave out gill nets to these

1357
01:56:19,291 --> 01:56:22,666
villages, like go catch some fish because

1358
01:56:22,666 --> 01:56:24,750
they're all protein deficient, like, you

1359
01:56:24,750 --> 01:56:25,250
know, they were trying

1360
01:56:25,250 --> 01:56:26,125
to encourage them to fish.

1361
01:56:26,166 --> 01:56:31,333
I mean, didn't work. So, yeah, then enter

1362
01:56:31,333 --> 01:56:36,791
2015, there was sort of some, I guess,

1363
01:56:37,041 --> 01:56:41,125
Asian business owners in the region that

1364
01:56:41,125 --> 01:56:42,125
were exporting mud crab.

1365
01:56:43,166 --> 01:56:46,750
And then, yeah, they cottoned on to the

1366
01:56:46,750 --> 01:56:49,125
the swing bladder trade. So those who

1367
01:56:49,125 --> 01:56:52,500
don't know, when bladder is the organ

1368
01:56:52,500 --> 01:56:59,958
that the fish used to make the water and

1369
01:56:59,958 --> 01:57:02,166
estuary and fish that live in two of the

1370
01:57:02,166 --> 01:57:04,125
environments where I said, is that good?

1371
01:57:05,416 --> 01:57:07,875
Use this when glad are they sort of

1372
01:57:07,875 --> 01:57:10,791
squeeze it contract and

1373
01:57:10,791 --> 01:57:12,041
makes this kind of boom.

1374
01:57:12,458 --> 01:57:15,291
If you've ever slept on a boat at night,

1375
01:57:15,500 --> 01:57:16,833
sometimes croakers under the

1376
01:57:16,833 --> 01:57:18,916
boat, just kind of talking.

1377
01:57:21,166 --> 01:57:23,000
So estuary and fish have a

1378
01:57:23,000 --> 01:57:24,125
big, thick swing bladders.

1379
01:57:47,125 --> 01:58:12,500
And they're worth a lot of money. And I think that's a significant

1380
01:58:12,500 --> 01:58:15,000
proportion of the population is probably

1381
01:58:15,000 --> 01:58:16,166
being caught in the last 10 years.

1382
01:58:17,166 --> 01:58:17,583
And they're not

1383
01:58:17,583 --> 01:58:19,666
common. Yeah, still there.

1384
01:58:20,000 --> 01:58:22,791
What where do you see like with all this

1385
01:58:22,791 --> 01:58:24,041
with your work and everything? Where do

1386
01:58:24,041 --> 01:58:27,750
you see your yourself going on the next,

1387
01:58:27,750 --> 01:58:31,041
you know, five, 10 years and stuff as far

1388
01:58:31,041 --> 01:58:32,166
as your career trajectory?

1389
01:58:32,458 --> 01:58:32,833
Where do you see

1390
01:58:32,833 --> 01:58:34,541
yourself heading towards?

1391
01:58:36,333 --> 01:58:39,958
Yeah, it's a it's a good question. I, to

1392
01:58:39,958 --> 01:58:42,000
be honest, I'm more interested in

1393
01:58:42,000 --> 01:58:44,791
studying people who catch sharks than I

1394
01:58:44,791 --> 01:58:45,833
am in studying sharks.

1395
01:58:46,166 --> 01:58:49,375
I go, I'm not really drawn to ecology

1396
01:58:49,375 --> 01:58:54,541
and, you know, biology all that much just

1397
01:58:54,541 --> 01:58:58,916
because we know what the problems are,

1398
01:58:58,916 --> 01:58:59,750
you know, for sharks

1399
01:58:59,750 --> 01:59:00,125
and rays in the world.

1400
01:59:00,166 --> 01:59:06,166
And we sort of know what we need to do in

1401
01:59:06,166 --> 01:59:08,250
the words of Colin. You know, he doesn't

1402
01:59:08,250 --> 01:59:09,750
mind recording him. We

1403
01:59:09,750 --> 01:59:11,458
probably don't need this study.

1404
01:59:12,666 --> 01:59:14,875
All that, like, do all that much more

1405
01:59:14,875 --> 01:59:17,458
ecological work on sharks, because I

1406
01:59:17,458 --> 01:59:19,375
think a lot of the barriers we face now

1407
01:59:19,375 --> 01:59:23,208
are policy, the politics of getting the

1408
01:59:23,208 --> 01:59:24,500
measures in place that we

1409
01:59:24,500 --> 01:59:25,125
don't need to be in place.

1410
01:59:25,166 --> 01:59:28,416
So that's why, you know, I really look up

1411
01:59:28,416 --> 01:59:31,083
to those people like Rema and Cass Ruby

1412
01:59:31,083 --> 01:59:35,666
and Sarah Fowler and a bunch of people in

1413
01:59:35,666 --> 01:59:37,416
your part of the world that, you know,

1414
01:59:38,375 --> 01:59:40,333
make that effort to pursue these

1415
01:59:40,333 --> 01:59:42,125
sightings and things because it works.

1416
01:59:42,166 --> 01:59:45,041
You know, sightings. I mean, when I was

1417
01:59:45,041 --> 01:59:49,000
in PNG, pre-Carcarina, it's being listed.

1418
01:59:49,958 --> 01:59:51,416
Shark bins everywhere, you know, the

1419
01:59:51,416 --> 01:59:53,125
villages and dry rags, you'd see it.

1420
01:59:54,791 --> 01:59:58,041
Fast forward to recent trips back in PNG

1421
01:59:58,041 --> 02:00:00,208
in 2000 or the end of

1422
02:00:00,208 --> 02:00:01,125
last year, December.

1423
02:00:02,166 --> 02:00:07,458
Harvey anything. And, you know, I, in a

1424
02:00:07,458 --> 02:00:09,708
sense, Fishmore has replaced it in these

1425
02:00:09,708 --> 02:00:13,125
coastal areas in some regions, but it's

1426
02:00:13,125 --> 02:00:14,833
clear that, you know, the head has been

1427
02:00:14,833 --> 02:00:16,125
kind of cut off of the beast.

1428
02:00:17,166 --> 02:00:21,333
The money in that market chain, I think

1429
02:00:21,333 --> 02:00:25,750
it's baby. I can't really give you much

1430
02:00:25,750 --> 02:00:27,625
good evidence. It's very anecdotal. But

1431
02:00:27,625 --> 02:00:30,208
yeah, it's the same when I was in Blynya.

1432
02:00:30,208 --> 02:00:33,041
There's not a lot of shark being drying

1433
02:00:33,041 --> 02:00:35,166
the rags and coastal villages anymore in

1434
02:00:35,166 --> 02:00:38,083
Asia. Unfortunately, though, you know,

1435
02:00:38,500 --> 02:00:40,208
like everything when one product fades

1436
02:00:40,208 --> 02:00:43,416
and other booms and it's, it's the skins

1437
02:00:43,416 --> 02:00:45,166
of daisy atom rays causing them to fall.

1438
02:00:47,166 --> 02:00:49,791
Along with Fishmore, which is again,

1439
02:00:50,041 --> 02:00:51,041
incidentally catching a

1440
02:00:51,041 --> 02:00:52,583
range of coastal sharks.

1441
02:00:52,583 --> 02:00:55,625
You know, it's a big problem in pop-up.

1442
02:00:55,625 --> 02:00:57,875
And it's, you know, this population we've

1443
02:00:57,875 --> 02:01:01,458
just found in North Kalamantai, you know,

1444
02:01:01,458 --> 02:01:03,375
this Fishmore happening there as well.

1445
02:01:04,083 --> 02:01:07,333
Yeah. Yeah. Where do you see like, what,

1446
02:01:07,333 --> 02:01:09,458
I guess, what did last question here for

1447
02:01:09,458 --> 02:01:10,125
you, Steph? It's been really super interesting.

1448
02:01:10,166 --> 02:01:13,833
I haven't talked to you about all this,

1449
02:01:13,833 --> 02:01:16,208
your adventures through PNG, but what

1450
02:01:16,208 --> 02:01:17,166
advice would you have for a

1451
02:01:17,166 --> 02:01:20,750
young person starting out?

1452
02:01:21,166 --> 02:01:26,875
Find a hole and fill it, I think. I like

1453
02:01:26,875 --> 02:01:32,625
that. Looking back at my career, it was

1454
02:01:32,625 --> 02:01:36,125
the review paper I did in my PhD.

1455
02:01:37,166 --> 02:01:40,541
I think that set me on a trajectory. So

1456
02:01:40,541 --> 02:01:43,250
yeah, I was going to, you know, look for

1457
02:01:43,250 --> 02:01:46,541
these sort of things that might be

1458
02:01:46,541 --> 02:01:48,166
occurring in freshwater and PNG.

1459
02:01:48,500 --> 02:01:50,083
And, you know, we kind of, I'm denied

1460
02:01:50,083 --> 02:01:51,791
about a review topic and then we're going

1461
02:01:51,791 --> 02:01:54,666
to going to review like the ecology of

1462
02:01:54,666 --> 02:01:56,125
sharks and rays and freshwater.

1463
02:01:57,166 --> 02:01:59,333
So I kind of got to work on that. And

1464
02:01:59,333 --> 02:02:02,041
then a few days later on, I was like, we

1465
02:02:02,041 --> 02:02:02,666
don't know what a

1466
02:02:02,666 --> 02:02:04,000
freshwater shark all is.

1467
02:02:04,833 --> 02:02:07,625
The definitions are so poorly defined. We

1468
02:02:07,625 --> 02:02:09,083
don't know what species are occurring

1469
02:02:09,083 --> 02:02:11,125
there, whether they can survive there,

1470
02:02:11,125 --> 02:02:11,666
whether they're just

1471
02:02:11,666 --> 02:02:13,125
transient visitors, you know.

1472
02:02:13,166 --> 02:02:17,250
And there were a few. So companion wrote

1473
02:02:17,250 --> 02:02:20,958
a really good paper on the topic in 1995.

1474
02:02:22,000 --> 02:02:25,000
And there was another paper by a last

1475
02:02:25,000 --> 02:02:29,208
time in 2005, but was very

1476
02:02:29,208 --> 02:02:31,125
similar to the companion work.

1477
02:02:32,500 --> 02:02:34,250
Yeah, so it was apparent that no one had

1478
02:02:34,250 --> 02:02:35,833
really sat down and

1479
02:02:35,833 --> 02:02:38,375
unpacked the topic since 1995.

1480
02:02:39,166 --> 02:02:44,583
So, yeah, we did that and we, you know,

1481
02:02:44,583 --> 02:02:46,250
tried to list out what are our really

1482
02:02:46,250 --> 02:02:48,375
high on species where freshwater species

1483
02:02:48,375 --> 02:02:50,708
are truly estuarons.

1484
02:02:51,416 --> 02:02:55,333
And what was transient? And yeah, you

1485
02:02:55,333 --> 02:02:56,666
know, when the numbers came in, I think

1486
02:02:56,666 --> 02:02:58,375
we had 10, you know,

1487
02:02:58,375 --> 02:02:59,125
high on sharks and rays.

1488
02:02:59,166 --> 02:03:03,125
And we for those sharks, so most people

1489
02:03:03,125 --> 02:03:04,583
don't think of the bull shark, but it's

1490
02:03:04,583 --> 02:03:07,916
actually not a species that is somewhat

1491
02:03:07,916 --> 02:03:09,041
similar like history.

1492
02:03:10,166 --> 02:03:14,541
And no freshwater sharks. And then, you

1493
02:03:14,541 --> 02:03:15,833
know, coming back to what we talked about

1494
02:03:15,833 --> 02:03:18,375
before the bliface, there's just beyond

1495
02:03:18,375 --> 02:03:21,083
the bull shark is, you know, if there are

1496
02:03:21,083 --> 02:03:22,833
occurrences of this is a freshwater

1497
02:03:22,833 --> 02:03:24,125
potentially transient.

1498
02:03:24,166 --> 02:03:27,083
I know Pete Klein's got a pair of records

1499
02:03:27,083 --> 02:03:30,750
of small juveniles. So there's some very

1500
02:03:30,750 --> 02:03:32,583
fresh conditions, but it's

1501
02:03:32,583 --> 02:03:33,833
still very much within that.

1502
02:03:35,625 --> 02:03:37,708
Yeah, so that that was interesting. And

1503
02:03:37,708 --> 02:03:40,791
then lo and behold, the group weren't

1504
02:03:40,791 --> 02:03:42,458
doing too well in terms of extinction

1505
02:03:42,458 --> 02:03:44,291
risks. So, you know, they're kind of

1506
02:03:44,291 --> 02:03:45,125
this, you know, priority.

1507
02:03:45,166 --> 02:03:48,791
I think the overall stack was more than

1508
02:03:48,791 --> 02:03:51,125
half were data deficient on the red list,

1509
02:03:51,583 --> 02:03:54,833
which is mainly an artifact of the time I

1510
02:03:54,833 --> 02:03:56,625
tried to raise in South America.

1511
02:03:57,541 --> 02:04:00,166
So, you know, a lot of recent texts and

1512
02:04:00,166 --> 02:04:01,291
descriptions and things.

1513
02:04:02,833 --> 02:04:05,500
Yeah, so that, you know, I held on to

1514
02:04:05,500 --> 02:04:10,000
that topic, I think, and I still do in

1515
02:04:10,000 --> 02:04:13,000
terms of the first water sharks and rays

1516
02:04:13,000 --> 02:04:14,166
and recently kind of

1517
02:04:15,166 --> 02:04:17,000
been able to integrate get them noticed

1518
02:04:17,000 --> 02:04:19,708
within the ICM freshwater biodiversity

1519
02:04:19,708 --> 02:04:22,875
unit that we've included in the big

1520
02:04:22,875 --> 02:04:24,666
nature, maybe it just came out on the

1521
02:04:24,666 --> 02:04:25,125
status of freshwater.

1522
02:04:25,166 --> 02:04:28,958
So yeah, we're trying to get them in the

1523
02:04:28,958 --> 02:04:31,500
freshwater conversation because the

1524
02:04:31,500 --> 02:04:34,416
narrative of mega fish

1525
02:04:34,416 --> 02:04:35,125
is what they call them.

1526
02:04:35,166 --> 02:04:40,500
They live in freshwater. The stat is like

1527
02:04:40,500 --> 02:04:43,958
an 88% of the line since the 1970s

1528
02:04:43,958 --> 02:04:49,000
numerous extinctions. And, you know,

1529
02:04:49,000 --> 02:04:50,791
trying to situate sharks and rays, fresh

1530
02:04:50,791 --> 02:04:51,583
water sharks and rays

1531
02:04:51,583 --> 02:04:52,833
within that narrative.

1532
02:04:53,500 --> 02:04:54,916
We don't have the information to do that

1533
02:04:54,916 --> 02:04:57,125
at the moment. And that's, that's

1534
02:04:57,125 --> 02:04:58,666
definitely that academic

1535
02:04:58,666 --> 02:05:01,125
space. I really enjoy the most.

1536
02:05:01,166 --> 02:05:04,500
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you.

1537
02:05:04,500 --> 02:05:05,541
Hey, Mick, we want to thank you for

1538
02:05:05,541 --> 02:05:06,875
coming on. This has been a super

1539
02:05:06,875 --> 02:05:10,125
fascinating episode talking to you about

1540
02:05:10,125 --> 02:05:14,416
freshwater sharks and rays and just sort

1541
02:05:14,416 --> 02:05:16,625
of your experiences working in, you know,

1542
02:05:16,916 --> 02:05:19,208
countries like PNG and Borneo and stuff.

1543
02:05:19,208 --> 02:05:21,041
It's really fascinating. I think your

1544
02:05:21,041 --> 02:05:23,916
message about young people like starting

1545
02:05:23,916 --> 02:05:25,416
out, like find something nobody else is

1546
02:05:25,416 --> 02:05:27,125
doing. I think it's really good.

1547
02:05:27,166 --> 02:05:30,500
And hopefully people do that. But yeah, I

1548
02:05:30,500 --> 02:05:31,583
really want to thank you. Thank you very

1549
02:05:31,583 --> 02:05:33,291
much. And we'll definitely have you back

1550
02:05:33,291 --> 02:05:35,208
on here sometime in the future when you

1551
02:05:35,208 --> 02:05:37,458
talk to more about sail fin hound sharks

1552
02:05:37,458 --> 02:05:39,458
or something. So anyway.

1553
02:05:39,875 --> 02:05:42,583
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. There's a range of

1554
02:05:42,583 --> 02:05:44,666
PNG stories that didn't make the cut

1555
02:05:44,666 --> 02:05:46,708
there. So I'm happy to talk to you.

1556
02:05:47,083 --> 02:05:50,125
Good. Awesome. Thank you so much, Mick.

1557
02:05:51,166 --> 02:05:53,791
Yeah, thank you guys. And yeah, special

1558
02:05:53,791 --> 02:05:56,250
thank you just to the colon and Andrew

1559
02:05:56,250 --> 02:05:58,000
for the help. Thank you, Mick, for

1560
02:05:58,000 --> 02:05:59,750
joining us on today's episode of the

1561
02:05:59,750 --> 02:06:01,333
Beyond Jaws podcast. It was great to have

1562
02:06:01,333 --> 02:06:03,083
you on learning about all these new

1563
02:06:03,083 --> 02:06:06,166
discoveries and your work on making sure

1564
02:06:06,166 --> 02:06:08,708
policy is the right thing, like the right

1565
02:06:08,708 --> 02:06:11,125
thing to go by for these sharks. Dave, what'd you think of the interview?

1566
02:06:11,166 --> 02:06:14,583
Oh, it's great. I mean, it was it was

1567
02:06:14,583 --> 02:06:17,416
really, really cool to have Mick share

1568
02:06:17,416 --> 02:06:18,958
his stories and everything I knew I knew

1569
02:06:18,958 --> 02:06:20,291
it'd be a good it would be a great

1570
02:06:20,291 --> 02:06:22,208
episode with him. And of course,

1571
02:06:22,208 --> 02:06:24,750
obviously hearing about the sail fin

1572
02:06:24,750 --> 02:06:26,375
hound shark was probably my highlight of

1573
02:06:26,375 --> 02:06:28,958
the show. But talking about some of the

1574
02:06:28,958 --> 02:06:30,583
working in that working in Papua New

1575
02:06:30,583 --> 02:06:32,500
Guinea, which is not an easy area. He

1576
02:06:32,500 --> 02:06:35,333
spends a lot of time in Indonesia in that

1577
02:06:35,333 --> 02:06:37,083
area as well, doing a lot of his

1578
02:06:37,083 --> 02:06:39,208
research. And then, of

1579
02:06:39,208 --> 02:06:40,166
course, helping with policy.

1580
02:06:41,166 --> 02:06:43,875
And stuff. So it's it's a great is a

1581
02:06:43,875 --> 02:06:44,958
wonderful thing. It was really nice

1582
02:06:44,958 --> 02:06:46,541
having him on here and at first hand,

1583
02:06:46,541 --> 02:06:48,083
sort of the stuff. And he does a lot of

1584
02:06:48,083 --> 02:06:49,375
stuff like I do, like basically looks for

1585
02:06:49,375 --> 02:06:51,583
these lost sharks thing. Yeah, they find

1586
02:06:51,583 --> 02:06:54,750
and everything. And and I really enjoyed

1587
02:06:54,750 --> 02:06:56,375
the story of when he found they came and

1588
02:06:56,375 --> 02:06:58,375
finally came across this sail fin hound

1589
02:06:58,375 --> 02:07:00,041
shark. The guys were like basically

1590
02:07:00,041 --> 02:07:01,625
having it for dinner or something. So

1591
02:07:01,625 --> 02:07:05,250
which is not unusual. No, no, not unusual

1592
02:07:05,250 --> 02:07:07,291
at all. You know, it's like, though, but

1593
02:07:07,291 --> 02:07:08,666
they, you know, but they didn't know.

1594
02:07:08,666 --> 02:07:09,750
They really didn't know anything about

1595
02:07:09,750 --> 02:07:10,166
it. And so it was really nice to have a lot of fun.

1596
02:07:11,166 --> 02:07:12,833
It was totally is just really cool

1597
02:07:12,833 --> 02:07:15,166
hearing the whole story about that. Yeah,

1598
02:07:15,166 --> 02:07:16,875
I just think it's overall just

1599
02:07:16,875 --> 02:07:18,625
interesting what you can accomplish at

1600
02:07:18,625 --> 02:07:20,916
such a young age in the worlds of sharks.

1601
02:07:21,333 --> 02:07:23,083
I think a lot of people think that the

1602
02:07:23,083 --> 02:07:26,250
shark field is plentiful of shark

1603
02:07:26,250 --> 02:07:28,375
scientists, but it seems as though not a

1604
02:07:28,375 --> 02:07:30,250
lot of people are. Well, I mean, I'm not

1605
02:07:30,250 --> 02:07:31,916
saying not a lot of people, but it's very

1606
02:07:31,916 --> 02:07:34,458
it's rare where you see people going out

1607
02:07:34,458 --> 02:07:35,750
into rare sharks and finding

1608
02:07:35,750 --> 02:07:36,125
out more about rare sharks.

1609
02:07:36,166 --> 02:07:38,583
It's harder to be able to find

1610
02:07:38,583 --> 02:07:40,166
information on them, but it seems like,

1611
02:07:40,166 --> 02:07:42,833
you know, it's possible and it's

1612
02:07:42,833 --> 02:07:46,000
beneficiary to to the field. Yeah. And

1613
02:07:46,000 --> 02:07:48,416
just to emphasize where he's where he's

1614
02:07:48,416 --> 02:07:50,875
working like in Papua New Guinea. That is

1615
02:07:50,875 --> 02:07:52,750
not an easy place to work. You have it's

1616
02:07:52,750 --> 02:07:55,000
a really tough area. I

1617
02:07:55,000 --> 02:07:57,041
mean, you've got a piracy crime.

1618
02:07:58,166 --> 02:08:00,375
You have a lot of problems going on

1619
02:08:00,375 --> 02:08:02,250
there. And I mean, I know people have

1620
02:08:02,250 --> 02:08:03,791
gone in there to like work. Other

1621
02:08:03,791 --> 02:08:05,333
colleagues of ours have gone into work

1622
02:08:05,333 --> 02:08:07,583
work in there and they literally they'll

1623
02:08:07,583 --> 02:08:08,833
land and they'll basically be told, get

1624
02:08:08,833 --> 02:08:10,250
back on the plane and get out of here.

1625
02:08:10,250 --> 02:08:11,291
You can't stay here. Right. Right.

1626
02:08:11,666 --> 02:08:13,583
So it's not an easy. So I might, you

1627
02:08:13,583 --> 02:08:15,375
know, my hats off to somebody like that

1628
02:08:15,375 --> 02:08:18,041
that really persists because it's it's I

1629
02:08:18,041 --> 02:08:20,166
can't overstate like it. It is a pretty

1630
02:08:20,166 --> 02:08:22,750
dangerous area to work in. You can't just

1631
02:08:22,750 --> 02:08:24,125
go wandering in on your own like that.

1632
02:08:24,166 --> 02:08:26,208
And but he's been working there for a

1633
02:08:26,208 --> 02:08:28,416
number of years with this project and

1634
02:08:28,416 --> 02:08:29,875
he's, you know, got a lot of really

1635
02:08:29,875 --> 02:08:31,958
wonderful contacts in Papua New Guinea,

1636
02:08:32,333 --> 02:08:34,333
which any of these places of your, as you

1637
02:08:34,333 --> 02:08:35,791
heard me talk, you have to really get to

1638
02:08:35,791 --> 02:08:37,833
know the local people in there. They're

1639
02:08:37,833 --> 02:08:39,208
going to help you, going to help it. It's

1640
02:08:39,208 --> 02:08:41,416
not going to be a successful expedition

1641
02:08:41,416 --> 02:08:42,916
unless you got to know the people in

1642
02:08:42,916 --> 02:08:43,958
there. And then you can

1643
02:08:44,166 --> 02:08:46,416
engrade yourself within the community and

1644
02:08:46,416 --> 02:08:49,416
the culture there as is huge. It's just

1645
02:08:49,416 --> 02:08:52,250
it's huge. Yeah, I completely agree. I

1646
02:08:52,250 --> 02:08:54,208
completely agree. And, you know, we want

1647
02:08:54,208 --> 02:08:55,916
to thank thank Mick again for joining us

1648
02:08:55,916 --> 02:08:57,958
on the show. I think it was really great

1649
02:08:57,958 --> 02:09:01,250
to have him on and be able to learn about

1650
02:09:01,250 --> 02:09:02,541
all these discoveries in the work that

1651
02:09:02,541 --> 02:09:04,750
he's doing. And we'll put any kind of

1652
02:09:04,750 --> 02:09:06,500
links for him in the show notes. And

1653
02:09:06,500 --> 02:09:07,583
then, Dave, if people want to get a hold

1654
02:09:07,583 --> 02:09:08,500
of you, how would they do so?

1655
02:09:09,166 --> 02:09:11,416
Uh, it's a lost shark guy on Instagram or

1656
02:09:11,416 --> 02:09:13,750
go actually go to a YouTube channel at

1657
02:09:13,750 --> 02:09:15,875
lost shark guy and check out the new

1658
02:09:15,875 --> 02:09:18,583
series I have going that Andrews worked

1659
02:09:18,583 --> 02:09:21,000
with me and editing. And these, the nice

1660
02:09:21,000 --> 02:09:24,166
Sotomayor is a film, but it's on on the

1661
02:09:24,166 --> 02:09:25,625
searching for lost starch, extinct or

1662
02:09:25,625 --> 02:09:28,083
alive. And you can check out the first

1663
02:09:28,083 --> 02:09:29,875
three episodes there. Looking for

1664
02:09:29,875 --> 02:09:30,916
Ecuador's lost shark.

1665
02:09:31,666 --> 02:09:33,041
Yes, I hope you do. Please subscribe.

1666
02:09:33,708 --> 02:09:34,833
We've got a lot of great feedback on

1667
02:09:34,833 --> 02:09:36,250
those videos as well. It's been amazing.

1668
02:09:36,916 --> 02:09:38,375
And we're going to see more come out as

1669
02:09:38,375 --> 02:09:40,791
well. So it's going to be it's going to

1670
02:09:40,791 --> 02:09:42,500
be a great fun. People are going to

1671
02:09:42,500 --> 02:09:44,416
really like it. So, uh, yeah, so check

1672
02:09:44,416 --> 02:09:46,041
that out. And if you want to hit us up

1673
02:09:46,041 --> 02:09:49,083
on, uh, on, on Instagram, you can do so

1674
02:09:49,083 --> 02:09:51,791
beyond Jaws pod. That's at beyond Jaws

1675
02:09:51,791 --> 02:09:53,666
pod. I'll put that link in the show notes

1676
02:09:53,666 --> 02:09:55,416
as well. And of course, we always welcome

1677
02:09:55,416 --> 02:09:57,125
comments. So put them in the description

1678
02:09:57,125 --> 02:09:59,416
or in the, sorry, in the comments below

1679
02:09:59,416 --> 02:10:00,125
in YouTube. Or if you want to get a hold of that, you can go to Jaws.com.

1680
02:10:00,166 --> 02:10:02,041
Or if you want to get a hold of us, uh,

1681
02:10:02,041 --> 02:10:03,833
you just hit us up on Instagram, just DM

1682
02:10:03,833 --> 02:10:05,583
either one of us. All right. Well, thank

1683
02:10:05,583 --> 02:10:07,375
you so much, Dave. And thank you so much,

1684
02:10:07,375 --> 02:10:08,791
Mick, for joining us. And we want to

1685
02:10:08,791 --> 02:10:10,250
thank you, the listener for listening to

1686
02:10:10,250 --> 02:10:12,125
this episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast

1687
02:10:12,125 --> 02:10:14,250
from Dave and I. Thank you so much. Have

1688
02:10:14,250 --> 02:10:15,708
a great day. We'll talk to you next time

1689
02:10:15,708 --> 02:10:16,666
and happy conservation.