Shark Science: How International Trade Fuels Unsustainable Shark and Ray Fisheries

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If you want to know how someone can

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dissect a basking shark that has washed

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ashore from a surfboard,

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you're going to want to listen and watch

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this episode because we

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have Chris Moll on the episode

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who talks about his experience in

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dissecting a basking shark

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that washed up unfortunately dead,

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but he didn't want to have it go to

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waste. He got a bunch of different parts

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so that it could be used

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for science. We're going to talk about

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that on today's episode

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of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Let's start the show. Hey everybody,

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welcome back to another

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exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws

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podcast. I'm your co-host Andrew Lewin

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with here with my close Dr.

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David Ebert. David, imagine

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you get you pull up on a basking shark.

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You can't get out there right away. So

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you know what you do.

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You just take your surfboard and you go

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and dissect it. It

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sounds like an easy job, but

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we're going to find out about how hard

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that is. Imagine like, what

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would you do in that situation?

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Well, he had just for everyone in

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context, it was it washed up in a little

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island that he had to

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he had to take his paddleboard surfboard

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out to to get to collect

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stuff. Then he had to make

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multiple trips back and he had the he had

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the rising tide coming in for going out.

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It's fast in Nova Scotia. It's fast.

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Yeah. Yeah. And so he

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had a few challenges,

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but that seems to be if you work on

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sharks at all and you do

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you used to do in dissections

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and necropses. That's not unusual in the

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field. Exactly. It can

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get you have to be kind of

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challenging. So yeah, that was quite a

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story. Chris had the head

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to tell. I hope everyone

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listens to it too. It was it was just one

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of one of many fascinating

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stories he had to tell about

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his his journey today, which is which his

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journey is we'll find out

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was he's driving cross cross

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Canada right now with his wife and that's

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turned into a bit of a journey in itself.

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It's true. We'll talk. We'll share a

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little of that too. So yeah,

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it was a lot of fun. It was a

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lot of fun to interview Chris. He he he

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was really forthcoming

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with a lot of information

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with his career, where where he started,

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how he where he's ending

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up, where he would like to end

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up. And I think it's it's really

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interesting to show that that having a

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shark science career is

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not an easy, not an easy path. And

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there's a lot of things that you can put

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yourself in a good place.

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And hopefully, you know, people will will

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see it and put, you know,

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and give back in terms of

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show like, hey, we've got love for you,

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and you deserve to be in a

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certain place. And I think

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that's what we see with Chris in this

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episode. So Dave, what do

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you say? Should we get to it?

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Let's do it. All right. Here's the

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interview with Chris Mall

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talking about his career in shark

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science. Enjoy the interview and we'll

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talk to you after. Hey, Chris, welcome to

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the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about sharks? I

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spend most of my time talking about

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sharks. So absolutely, I'm ready.

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Great. That's like the arrow. Well,

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welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast,

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everyone. And we have an

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outstanding early career guest today. We

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have Dr. Chris Mall, who's currently

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among other positions

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as a research scientist at the University

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of Washington School of

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Aquatic and Fishery Sciences.

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He also holds several postdoctoral

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positions. We'll talk more about today.

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Chris is originally

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from Southern California,

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where like most Southern Californians, he

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spent his time at the beach, surfing,

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snorkeling, diving. Think

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Baywatch for shark nerds.

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And he did his undergraduate, though, at

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the University of California, Davis, up

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in the Northern California area,

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where he got his first experience doing

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animal husbandry and research, working on

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everything from

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crayfish to sturgeon to sharks.

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After his undergraduate, he moved back to

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Southern California to do a master's

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degree at California State University,

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Long Beach with Chris Lowe,

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who's a frequent podcast guest. And he

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was Chris was recently on our Jaws 50th

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anniversary episode.

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And where he worked on the reproductive

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biology of those lovable, lovable flat

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sharks, the famous round stingray,

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Eurybatus hallery, who we'll find out

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more about today. After his master's

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thesis, he worked at the CSU

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Long Beach lab as an analytical chemist

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doing toxicology just for fun. He then

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moved to Vancouver, British Columbia,

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where he worked with Dr. Nick Dolby, his

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PhD, to do his PhD. And Nick was has been

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on our podcast as well back

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in September, October of 2023.

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And also on his committee was another fan

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favorite of ours, Dr. Carrie Yopat, who's

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also been on our podcast.

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And we really need to have her back again

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sometime studying the life history and

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brain evolution across chondricthians.

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After completing his PhD, Chris did

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several post doctorates in the US,

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Australia, Canada, and his current work

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combines phylogenetic comparative methods

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to better understand trade evolution and

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more applied work looking at how

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international trade contributes to

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unsustainable

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fisheries for sharks and rays.

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Chris has over 20 publications, and he's

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also an associate editor for the Journal

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of Marine Biology. As I mentioned, he has

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a research position at University of

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Washington, has several postdocs.

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He's also the co founder and principal

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investigator of Sharkopedia, which we'll

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find out more about today. He's also a

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principal investigator for the National

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Center for Ecological Analysis and

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Synthesis to assess international trade

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that drives unsustainable

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shark and brave fisheries.

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And well, Chris, welcome to the show.

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Sorry, I took up all your time doing your

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introduction. But you have

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a very impressive resume.

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Thanks a lot, guys. Thanks for having me.

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I try to be a jack of all trades.

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Great.

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Definitely.

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So our first help to hit you up with our

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first question here, like, how did you

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get interested in

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marine biology and sharks?

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Yeah, so I guess I'm probably like a lot

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of people when I was little. That's what

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I wanted to do. And I kind of never grew

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up, never grew out of it. So my parents

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say that when I was three or four, I

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declared that I wanted to work on sharks

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and kind of done everything in my career

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since then to work towards that goal.

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So I grew up in Hermosa Beach, a little

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town in Southern California. It's a big

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surfing town. And we spend our days at

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the beach boogie boarding, surfing. I'd

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see little leopard sharks in the waves.

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Sometimes shovel nose, guitar fish, bat

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rays, things like that. And so sort of

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piqued my interest. And then every once

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in a while, you'd hear of somebody

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catching like a young white shark off the

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Manhattan Beach pier. And that was kind

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of a big thing. But yeah, and I just sort

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of kind of never grew out of it. And I haven't really wanted to do that.

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So I got to show you, so all through like

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grade school, high school, high school

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counselors asked you like what you're

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gonna do, you're telling them I'm gonna

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go study sharks. Yeah, I mean, I always

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knew I wanted to do something in the

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sciences, but it was always clearly like

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sharks was the main thing I wanted to do.

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And so yeah, every decision I made was

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kind of towards that goal. And funny,

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funnily enough, even going to UC Davis,

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which is pretty far inland, part of that. And I think that's a really cool thing.

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Part of that. And the reason I went

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specifically was because they had, you

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could do a quarter at the Bodega Marine

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Lab. And so I got my first taste of doing

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like hands on independent research when I

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was there. So one of the probably one of

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the most fortuitous things is when I was

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at UC Davis as an undergrad, I got to

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work with Joe check. So he is kind of one

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of the sort of godfathers of physiology.

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And that's really where I started to get

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interested in physiology. So

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he let me work in his lab volunteering.

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So you know, you start off with kind of

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menial tasks, washing glassware, data

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entry, that sort of thing. But he had

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some really cool projects looking at

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sturgeon and salmon and how they kind of

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interacted with with a lot of these sort

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of fish exclusion devices. So anytime

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there was agricultural

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setups that were taking water from the

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delta, they might impinge some of these

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endangered fish. And so we were studying

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that. And then working with him, that's

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when I kind of formulated sort of my

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first independent research project. So

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when I went to the day today, I got to

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work on leopard sharks, looking at how

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differences in salinity affected

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metabolic rate. So I got to build my own

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flow through respirometer. And I had

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these really old devices, like old

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hospital blood gas analyzers that I have

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to calibrate and then use. And then from

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there, some friends and I just really

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loved it. And so we we got a little grant

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through the Howard Hughes Medical

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Institute to stick around summer. And we

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worked in the eelgrass beds

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looking at rockfish, surf,

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purchase, those kinds of things. And then

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it just kind of blossom from there. And

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once I got a case of research, that's

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kind of how it all started. And I didn't

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want to do anything else. And then when I

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was looking for grad schools, you know,

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there wasn't really anyone who was kind

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of doing eco physiology of sharks at the

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time. And I was talking to Joe, I said,

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you know, where can I go? And he said,

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Well, there's this guy at Cal State Long

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Beach named Chris Lowe, and he'd be a

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good person to talk to. And I applied to Chris's lab. And then I got a piece of research on the E.D.C.

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And then kind of got going from there. So

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yeah, I kind of just tried to learn sort

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of different skills along the way. So,

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you know, working with Chris, learn

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01:09:03,500 --> 01:09:06,166
everything from like physiology. And then

268
01:09:06,166 --> 01:09:08,875
he had a really big, vibrant lab at the

269
01:09:08,875 --> 01:09:10,333
time. But it's funny, like there wasn't a

270
01:09:10,333 --> 01:09:12,875
lot of shark research going on.

271
01:09:12,916 --> 01:09:15,166
There was so some of the people you might

272
01:09:15,166 --> 01:09:17,125
have talked to you before Yani, I know he

273
01:09:17,125 --> 01:09:19,416
was on an episode, Jeremy Baudel, some of

274
01:09:19,416 --> 01:09:20,666
those folks were just kind of finishing

275
01:09:20,666 --> 01:09:23,416
up. And so when I started, I was working

276
01:09:23,416 --> 01:09:25,000
on stingrays, a lot of people were

277
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:25,750
working on rockfish.

278
01:09:26,083 --> 01:09:27,791
And then at the time, there was a lot of

279
01:09:27,791 --> 01:09:30,666
work on the offshore oil platforms were

280
01:09:30,666 --> 01:09:32,750
kind of the fact though, marine reserves,

281
01:09:32,958 --> 01:09:34,291
people weren't allowed to fish on them.

282
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:36,500
And there was this whole rigs to race

283
01:09:36,500 --> 01:09:37,416
program. So we got to

284
01:09:37,416 --> 01:09:38,583
do tons of fieldwork.

285
01:09:39,291 --> 01:09:40,875
And then there was this whole thing of,

286
01:09:40,875 --> 01:09:42,250
you know, lots of lots of diving on the

287
01:09:42,250 --> 01:09:45,625
rigs, which was really cool. Got to see,

288
01:09:45,625 --> 01:09:47,791
obviously tons of rockfish, pilot whales.

289
01:09:48,666 --> 01:09:50,250
One time was one of the gold mine, I did

290
01:09:50,250 --> 01:09:52,416
get a mola mola in my transect on the

291
01:09:52,416 --> 01:09:54,958
platform. As I was going down, I just

292
01:09:54,958 --> 01:09:57,000
sort of stayed still until it got within

293
01:09:57,000 --> 01:10:00,166
my window. So the great thing is like, we

294
01:10:00,166 --> 01:10:01,583
all worked on each other's projects and

295
01:10:01,583 --> 01:10:05,041
got to do tons, tons of stuff. And so

296
01:10:05,041 --> 01:10:05,500
there was a really

297
01:10:05,500 --> 01:10:06,458
like collegial atmosphere.

298
01:10:06,916 --> 01:10:11,125
And then from there, yeah, I kind of just

299
01:10:11,125 --> 01:10:13,625
wanted to learn more skills and this this

300
01:10:13,625 --> 01:10:16,833
job in this chemistry lab opened up. So

301
01:10:16,833 --> 01:10:21,000
the lab is Hermes, the Institute for

302
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:22,583
Integrated Research and Materials and

303
01:10:22,583 --> 01:10:24,458
Environment and Society, which is why

304
01:10:24,458 --> 01:10:25,583
they call it Hermes. It's sort of a

305
01:10:25,583 --> 01:10:27,625
mouthful, but it was, it was a core

306
01:10:27,625 --> 01:10:28,750
facility for the Cal States.

307
01:10:28,916 --> 01:10:31,750
Everything for mass spectrometry,

308
01:10:31,750 --> 01:10:35,833
including ICP, MS, GC, MS, we had X-ray

309
01:10:35,833 --> 01:10:39,000
for essence. So electron microscopy, we

310
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:41,666
had stabilized tote mass specs. We had

311
01:10:41,666 --> 01:10:43,000
laser ablation suite. So we had all these

312
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:46,583
really cool tools. And so my job was to

313
01:10:46,583 --> 01:10:48,750
sort of work on any sort of contracts

314
01:10:48,750 --> 01:10:49,750
that came through. It was mostly

315
01:10:49,750 --> 01:10:50,791
different Cal State researchers.

316
01:10:51,875 --> 01:10:53,916
And then maintaining the equipment,

317
01:10:53,916 --> 01:10:56,791
obviously, was a big part of it, which is

318
01:10:56,791 --> 01:10:57,916
really fun because these are really,

319
01:10:57,916 --> 01:10:59,541
really fancy, really expensive

320
01:10:59,541 --> 01:11:00,708
instruments. And you kind of have to get

321
01:11:00,708 --> 01:11:02,333
over your fear of fiddling with them.

322
01:11:03,750 --> 01:11:06,458
And then we sort of, if there was

323
01:11:06,458 --> 01:11:07,833
downtime, we could run things that we

324
01:11:07,833 --> 01:11:10,708
wanted to samples that we wanted to. And

325
01:11:10,708 --> 01:11:13,541
at the time, Chris's lab was working with

326
01:11:13,541 --> 01:11:15,666
the Monterey Bay Aquarium. And we were

327
01:11:15,666 --> 01:11:17,708
part of the rapid response team for the

328
01:11:17,708 --> 01:11:17,875
juvenile white sharks.

329
01:11:17,875 --> 01:11:21,000
This is when that program was kind of

330
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:23,291
first getting started. So we would go out

331
01:11:23,291 --> 01:11:26,250
and, you know, we tag sharks that

332
01:11:26,250 --> 01:11:28,708
fishermen had captured as bycatch. Some

333
01:11:28,708 --> 01:11:30,208
of them went to the aquarium at the time,

334
01:11:30,708 --> 01:11:31,958
a lot of them released. But if there were

335
01:11:31,958 --> 01:11:34,541
incidental mortalities, we would take

336
01:11:34,541 --> 01:11:36,416
those animals and we perform necropsies.

337
01:11:36,416 --> 01:11:37,833
And so we had this kind of tissue bank.

338
01:11:38,875 --> 01:11:39,916
And I thought it'd be really interesting

339
01:11:39,916 --> 01:11:43,375
to see what the contaminants are. So a friend of mine, Mary Blasius and I, we took the samples and we were running heavy metals. We had a lot of the

340
01:11:51,958 --> 01:11:53,250
samples and we found these really, really

341
01:11:53,250 --> 01:11:55,125
amazingly high levels of things like

342
01:11:55,125 --> 01:12:00,958
mercury, DDT, PCBs. And so that kind of

343
01:12:00,958 --> 01:12:01,375
kicked off sort of this interest in toxicology. And then from some of that work, we discovered
that basically these sharks could not have acquired those levels of those contaminants.

344
01:12:12,416 --> 01:12:15,083
by feeding alone. So it had to be coming

345
01:12:15,083 --> 01:12:16,541
from something else. And that other

346
01:12:16,541 --> 01:12:18,750
source was the mother so that

347
01:12:18,750 --> 01:12:20,041
contaminants are offloaded during

348
01:12:20,041 --> 01:12:22,083
gestation. So it was kind of the first

349
01:12:22,083 --> 01:12:23,416
evidence of maternal offloading

350
01:12:23,416 --> 01:12:25,375
contaminants and white sharks, which was really cool. And that's become like a

351
01:12:28,291 --> 01:12:31,750
birthinga field and Katy Lyons, is she's

352
01:12:31,750 --> 01:12:33,000
sort of taken the torch and run with

353
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:34,416
that. And she's done some amazing work

354
01:12:34,416 --> 01:12:35,833
looking at the internal offloading and

355
01:12:35,833 --> 01:12:39,291
then again, I wanted to learn more skills

356
01:12:39,291 --> 01:12:41,583
and so while I was there, you know, I

357
01:12:41,583 --> 01:12:42,833
worked with a lot of people, I always

358
01:12:42,833 --> 01:12:45,208
loved collecting samples with people. And

359
01:12:45,208 --> 01:12:46,375
this postdoc from UC San Diego was looking at brains of different sharks and rays, Kara came up. And so I helped her collect some brains from some of the round sting rays I was working on.

360
01:12:46,416 --> 01:12:48,875
San Diego was looking at brains of

361
01:12:48,875 --> 01:12:49,875
different sharks and rays.

362
01:12:50,166 --> 01:12:50,791
Kara came up.

363
01:12:51,541 --> 01:12:53,250
And so I helped her collect some brains

364
01:12:53,250 --> 01:12:53,958
from some of the round

365
01:12:53,958 --> 01:12:55,166
stingrays I was working on.

366
01:12:56,041 --> 01:12:56,875
And then when the

367
01:12:56,875 --> 01:12:58,291
opportunity came up to do a PhD

368
01:12:58,500 --> 01:13:00,500
with Nick and Kara, I sort

369
01:13:00,500 --> 01:13:01,458
of jumped at the opportunity

370
01:13:01,666 --> 01:13:02,583
to learn some skills

371
01:13:02,583 --> 01:13:05,666
and moved off from there.

372
01:13:06,375 --> 01:13:07,083
That's kind of an

373
01:13:07,083 --> 01:13:08,333
interesting combination.

374
01:13:09,208 --> 01:13:11,000
Obviously, we know both

375
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:12,750
Nick and Kara real well,

376
01:13:12,750 --> 01:13:14,916
but how did you, it kind

377
01:13:14,916 --> 01:13:16,333
of like what those two do,

378
01:13:16,875 --> 01:13:18,166
how did this whole thing come about

379
01:13:18,166 --> 01:13:21,666
that you're doing brain work with?

380
01:13:21,791 --> 01:13:22,083
Yeah.

381
01:13:22,083 --> 01:13:22,541
It just seemed like

382
01:13:22,541 --> 01:13:23,458
knowing what Nick does

383
01:13:23,458 --> 01:13:24,708
and what Kara does is

384
01:13:24,708 --> 01:13:26,250
like, how did that come about?

385
01:13:26,875 --> 01:13:29,375
Yeah, so I think in a former life

386
01:13:29,375 --> 01:13:31,458
or when Nick was doing his PhD,

387
01:13:31,458 --> 01:13:34,125
he was really interested in life history

388
01:13:34,458 --> 01:13:37,000
and reproductive mode

389
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:38,208
evolution, these types of things.

390
01:13:38,458 --> 01:13:39,375
And then I think sort of

391
01:13:39,375 --> 01:13:40,583
the idea was kind of spawned

392
01:13:40,750 --> 01:13:43,458
by a conversation that he had

393
01:13:43,583 --> 01:13:44,375
with another faculty

394
01:13:44,375 --> 01:13:46,708
member at SFU, Bernie Kresbe,

395
01:13:46,708 --> 01:13:47,500
who ended up being one

396
01:13:47,500 --> 01:13:48,458
of my committee members,

397
01:13:48,958 --> 01:13:50,625
but they knew that maternal investment

398
01:13:50,625 --> 01:13:51,500
was really important

399
01:13:51,625 --> 01:13:54,541
for relative brain size in mammals.

400
01:13:55,333 --> 01:13:57,000
So the idea is that neurogenesis

401
01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:58,625
is an incredibly expensive process.

402
01:13:59,291 --> 01:14:00,041
And most neurogenesis

403
01:14:00,041 --> 01:14:01,708
occurs during early development,

404
01:14:01,750 --> 01:14:02,541
especially in mammals.

405
01:14:03,500 --> 01:14:04,833
So the more energy

406
01:14:04,833 --> 01:14:05,750
that a mother can invest

407
01:14:05,750 --> 01:14:08,083
in a single offspring, the

408
01:14:08,083 --> 01:14:09,500
vast majority of that energy,

409
01:14:09,541 --> 01:14:11,333
especially in early life is

410
01:14:11,333 --> 01:14:12,958
going towards neural development

411
01:14:13,166 --> 01:14:13,958
or neurogenesis.

412
01:14:14,666 --> 01:14:16,250
So in humans, I think in

413
01:14:16,250 --> 01:14:17,000
the really early stages,

414
01:14:17,208 --> 01:14:19,166
about 85% of the energy that goes to a

415
01:14:19,166 --> 01:14:20,625
fetus is going towards development

416
01:14:20,625 --> 01:14:21,375
of the brain and the

417
01:14:21,375 --> 01:14:22,208
central nervous system.

418
01:14:23,500 --> 01:14:24,041
And it's really cool,

419
01:14:24,041 --> 01:14:25,125
you know, in mammals,

420
01:14:25,125 --> 01:14:26,666
there are different degrees of maternal

421
01:14:26,666 --> 01:14:27,875
investment, but you have this,

422
01:14:27,875 --> 01:14:28,875
they're all essentially

423
01:14:28,875 --> 01:14:30,416
within a few reproductive modes.

424
01:14:30,416 --> 01:14:31,166
So most of the work was

425
01:14:31,166 --> 01:14:32,583
done in, in eutherian mammals.

426
01:14:32,583 --> 01:14:35,375
So it's like us, they have a placenta,

427
01:14:35,833 --> 01:14:36,458
but there's similar

428
01:14:36,458 --> 01:14:37,583
patterns seen in marsupials.

429
01:14:37,916 --> 01:14:39,166
So again, it's just kind of a different

430
01:14:39,166 --> 01:14:40,208
combinations or durations

431
01:14:40,541 --> 01:14:43,041
of gestation and lactation.

432
01:14:43,833 --> 01:14:45,625
But the really cool thing about sharks is

433
01:14:45,625 --> 01:14:47,625
that they have every form of reproduction

434
01:14:47,625 --> 01:14:49,083
that's been described for vertebrates.

435
01:14:49,083 --> 01:14:51,541
So everything from egg laying to

436
01:14:51,541 --> 01:14:52,875
placental live bearing

437
01:14:52,875 --> 01:14:53,958
and then this whole

438
01:14:53,958 --> 01:14:55,458
range of modes in between.

439
01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:58,041
So you have this kind of arena for really

440
01:14:58,041 --> 01:14:59,875
different levels of maternal investment,

441
01:14:59,875 --> 01:15:01,083
depending on the life history of the

442
01:15:01,083 --> 01:15:02,083
animals, the environment,

443
01:15:02,333 --> 01:15:03,625
select pressures, and then

444
01:15:03,625 --> 01:15:05,250
also offspring size and number.

445
01:15:06,333 --> 01:15:08,791
And Kara had had a couple of really

446
01:15:08,791 --> 01:15:09,958
amazing papers coming out,

447
01:15:09,958 --> 01:15:12,291
just looking at this, the neurobiological

448
01:15:12,291 --> 01:15:13,666
diversity of sharks and rays.

449
01:15:14,125 --> 01:15:16,708
So she was building on some earlier work

450
01:15:16,708 --> 01:15:18,333
from Glenn Northcutt.

451
01:15:18,333 --> 01:15:21,041
And what she realized when she expanded

452
01:15:21,041 --> 01:15:22,333
the dataset is that, you know,

453
01:15:22,750 --> 01:15:24,625
we think of mammals having really large

454
01:15:24,625 --> 01:15:27,166
brains and then other

455
01:15:27,166 --> 01:15:28,666
vertebrates like reptiles

456
01:15:28,666 --> 01:15:31,708
and teleos having smaller brain sizes.

457
01:15:31,708 --> 01:15:33,083
And when I say brain size, I'm typically

458
01:15:33,083 --> 01:15:34,125
saying I'm referring

459
01:15:34,125 --> 01:15:35,416
to relative brain size.

460
01:15:35,416 --> 01:15:36,250
That's the size of your

461
01:15:36,250 --> 01:15:38,000
brain relative to your body size.

462
01:15:38,541 --> 01:15:40,708
But sharks have this like range of

463
01:15:40,708 --> 01:15:41,583
relative brain sizes

464
01:15:41,583 --> 01:15:43,500
that spans all of this.

465
01:15:43,500 --> 01:15:45,541
So you have some species which have huge

466
01:15:45,541 --> 01:15:46,625
relative brain sizes,

467
01:15:46,625 --> 01:15:48,500
things like hammerheads,

468
01:15:49,208 --> 01:15:50,625
mobulid rays, and then you have things

469
01:15:50,625 --> 01:15:51,458
that have really small

470
01:15:51,458 --> 01:15:52,458
relative brain sizes.

471
01:15:53,166 --> 01:15:54,125
Typically, there's going to be like

472
01:15:54,125 --> 01:15:57,041
squaliforms, skates, things like that.

473
01:15:58,000 --> 01:15:59,583
And so again, what's kind of the

474
01:15:59,583 --> 01:16:00,916
difference between these groups?

475
01:16:00,916 --> 01:16:01,708
Oftentimes, it comes

476
01:16:01,708 --> 01:16:02,750
down to life history.

477
01:16:03,291 --> 01:16:05,125
And a big part of that life history is

478
01:16:05,125 --> 01:16:06,666
reproduction and then

479
01:16:06,666 --> 01:16:07,458
maternal investment.

480
01:16:07,500 --> 01:16:11,125
And so they kind of had this idea and

481
01:16:11,125 --> 01:16:12,875
then they were looking for a PhD student.

482
01:16:12,875 --> 01:16:15,250
So I came in and kind of took that

483
01:16:15,250 --> 01:16:18,083
initial idea, built on it, looking at,

484
01:16:18,083 --> 01:16:19,500
you know, the sort of

485
01:16:19,500 --> 01:16:21,625
sequence and tempo of evolution,

486
01:16:23,125 --> 01:16:24,583
brain, not just brain size, but brain

487
01:16:24,583 --> 01:16:26,875
organization and then spinning that out

488
01:16:26,875 --> 01:16:28,375
into a number of different things.

489
01:16:29,333 --> 01:16:31,250
So kind of really, it's really cool

490
01:16:31,250 --> 01:16:32,333
because I was really focused on

491
01:16:32,333 --> 01:16:33,291
eco-physiology and

492
01:16:33,291 --> 01:16:34,125
those types of things first.

493
01:16:35,375 --> 01:16:36,916
But then it really made me start to think

494
01:16:36,916 --> 01:16:37,958
about the full

495
01:16:37,958 --> 01:16:39,250
diversity of sharks and rays.

496
01:16:40,208 --> 01:16:42,583
And, you know, as you both know, there's

497
01:16:42,583 --> 01:16:44,041
more than just every book probably thinks

498
01:16:44,041 --> 01:16:45,125
of like five species of

499
01:16:45,125 --> 01:16:46,458
sharks when I think of sharks.

500
01:16:46,458 --> 01:16:48,666
But there's over 500 species of sharks,

501
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:50,208
600 species of batoids.

502
01:16:50,208 --> 01:16:51,541
There's this huge amount of biodiversity

503
01:16:51,541 --> 01:16:53,750
that is oftentimes underappreciated.

504
01:16:54,791 --> 01:16:58,291
So I do remember when I was when I was

505
01:16:58,291 --> 01:17:03,333
interviewing with Nick and Kara, one of the questions they asked me,

506
01:17:03,375 --> 01:17:07,125
was, well, you know, what if we decided

507
01:17:07,125 --> 01:17:08,500
we didn't want to work on sharks?

508
01:17:08,750 --> 01:17:10,541
We actually wanted to work on something

509
01:17:10,541 --> 01:17:11,958
else, like a different taxonomic group.

510
01:17:13,875 --> 01:17:14,666
So I said, you know, that

511
01:17:14,666 --> 01:17:15,458
would be kind of interesting.

512
01:17:16,375 --> 01:17:17,750
And there's always possibility.

513
01:17:18,125 --> 01:17:20,500
But I think sharks and rays are actually

514
01:17:20,500 --> 01:17:22,458
a really ideal group for these reasons.

515
01:17:22,750 --> 01:17:23,500
And I think that in their

516
01:17:23,500 --> 01:17:24,416
mind sort of crystallized.

517
01:17:24,416 --> 01:17:26,000
OK, this is the person who can take this

518
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:27,166
idea and run with it.

519
01:17:27,166 --> 01:17:29,375
So it's not not to say there's anything

520
01:17:29,375 --> 01:17:30,333
bad of loving sharks.

521
01:17:30,333 --> 01:17:33,541
We all do. But the thing that I really tried as

522
01:17:33,541 --> 01:17:34,791
champions that like they're actually a

523
01:17:34,791 --> 01:17:36,958
really good group for asking a lot of

524
01:17:36,958 --> 01:17:39,291
these really broad ecological

525
01:17:39,291 --> 01:17:40,875
evolutionary questions.

526
01:17:42,375 --> 01:17:43,458
And it kind of brings it

527
01:17:43,458 --> 01:17:45,625
back to Dave, you'll know this.

528
01:17:45,958 --> 01:17:47,625
So I read this paper because you

529
01:17:47,625 --> 01:17:49,000
recommended it was one of Leonard

530
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:51,750
Campano's sort of review papers, like

531
01:17:51,750 --> 01:17:52,500
alternative life

532
01:17:52,500 --> 01:17:53,875
histories and time and space.

533
01:17:54,083 --> 01:17:55,958
Kind of a classic paper that every

534
01:17:55,958 --> 01:17:57,333
student of shark and ray biology should read.

535
01:17:57,375 --> 01:18:00,000
So he does everything

536
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:01,791
from define eco morpho types.

537
01:18:02,583 --> 01:18:04,000
So the evolution of these

538
01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:05,375
things, reproductive modes.

539
01:18:05,625 --> 01:18:07,500
But it has, I think, one of the best

540
01:18:07,500 --> 01:18:08,791
concluding paragraphs

541
01:18:08,791 --> 01:18:11,541
of all time in any paper.

542
01:18:12,250 --> 01:18:15,000
And I sort of shared it like in talks and

543
01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:18,375
let's like science communication.

544
01:18:18,375 --> 01:18:20,666
But the idea is that, you know, people

545
01:18:20,666 --> 01:18:22,166
always think when they think of like

546
01:18:22,166 --> 01:18:23,916
groups that are worthy of studying, it's

547
01:18:23,916 --> 01:18:25,500
the birds, it's the mammals, the

548
01:18:25,500 --> 01:18:26,333
reptiles, the teleos.

549
01:18:26,500 --> 01:18:30,291
But there's a big number of reasons why

550
01:18:30,291 --> 01:18:32,375
sharks and rays should not be overlooked.

551
01:18:32,916 --> 01:18:34,166
And they're actually a really ideal group

552
01:18:34,166 --> 01:18:35,291
for doing a lot of these things.

553
01:18:35,291 --> 01:18:36,291
And that's kind of what I'm trying to

554
01:18:36,291 --> 01:18:39,208
like gear my career towards is focusing

555
01:18:39,208 --> 01:18:41,208
on that biodiversity and why it's

556
01:18:41,208 --> 01:18:41,833
important and why we

557
01:18:41,833 --> 01:18:43,125
should appreciate it.

558
01:18:43,916 --> 01:18:45,500
Yeah, I got.

559
01:18:45,500 --> 01:18:47,416
Yeah, it's just a reiterate to everybody

560
01:18:47,416 --> 01:18:49,583
out there that Leonard Capaña's 1990

561
01:18:49,583 --> 01:18:51,333
paper environmental biology of fishes.

562
01:18:51,375 --> 01:18:55,333
Alternate life history. It's absolute

563
01:18:55,333 --> 01:18:59,000
classic in any serious student who wants

564
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:01,375
to get into this. That's the paper.

565
01:19:02,208 --> 01:19:04,375
It's a must read paper for you. It's just

566
01:19:04,375 --> 01:19:07,750
it's so revolutionary and just out think

567
01:19:07,750 --> 01:19:08,958
out think you talk about a guy.

568
01:19:09,250 --> 01:19:10,500
I've always talked Leonard thinks outside

569
01:19:10,500 --> 01:19:11,291
the box with such an

570
01:19:11,291 --> 01:19:13,000
outside the box type of paper.

571
01:19:13,375 --> 01:19:15,958
It was so revolutionary at the time. And

572
01:19:15,958 --> 01:19:16,541
a lot of people don't

573
01:19:16,541 --> 01:19:18,250
even know about these days.

574
01:19:18,250 --> 01:19:19,333
Yeah, it was kind of overlooked. Yeah.

575
01:19:19,375 --> 01:19:22,625
Yeah. You know, and I was and I've told

576
01:19:22,625 --> 01:19:24,250
the story, but I was I was a grad student

577
01:19:24,250 --> 01:19:25,000
when they when he got

578
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:26,041
onto that whole thing.

579
01:19:26,958 --> 01:19:29,458
And there's a book that really kind of

580
01:19:29,458 --> 01:19:32,458
helped drive the whole thing to is he

581
01:19:32,458 --> 01:19:36,500
refers to it in the in the in the in the

582
01:19:36,500 --> 01:19:40,291
in the papers by Robert Bakker, who's if

583
01:19:40,291 --> 01:19:41,333
you're a Jurassic Park fan.

584
01:19:42,375 --> 01:19:45,291
He's kind of like the the actor in the

585
01:19:45,291 --> 01:19:47,625
camera, the actor's name in the in the

586
01:19:47,625 --> 01:19:49,000
movie, the original one. But that was

587
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:51,250
kind of modeled after him. And he wrote a

588
01:19:51,250 --> 01:19:53,166
book called the dinosaur heresies.

589
01:19:54,375 --> 01:19:56,833
And that's that's a phenomenal. I've read

590
01:19:56,833 --> 01:19:58,375
that book, too. I couldn't put that book

591
01:19:58,375 --> 01:20:00,458
down. And that was and that gave a

592
01:20:00,458 --> 01:20:01,833
Leonard a lot. Leonard was already kind

593
01:20:01,833 --> 01:20:02,625
of working on it. When

594
01:20:02,625 --> 01:20:03,333
he read that book. Yeah.

595
01:20:03,375 --> 01:20:06,583
He just like it just inspired him. And I

596
01:20:06,583 --> 01:20:08,166
actually got the book to and read it.

597
01:20:08,166 --> 01:20:09,875
It's just that's a good those are two

598
01:20:09,875 --> 01:20:12,000
kind of complimentary things. It reads

599
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:14,333
that the dinosaur Harry Harris. He's by

600
01:20:14,333 --> 01:20:16,416
Robert Bakker. I think it came out around

601
01:20:16,416 --> 01:20:18,625
eighty six or so. And then Leonard's

602
01:20:18,625 --> 01:20:20,500
paper. If you want to just get inspired

603
01:20:20,500 --> 01:20:23,291
to think differently in terms of your

604
01:20:23,291 --> 01:20:24,750
your research, you're doing shark

605
01:20:24,750 --> 01:20:27,125
research. It's just incredible paper. But

606
01:20:27,125 --> 01:20:28,958
yeah, I'm glad to hear you

607
01:20:28,958 --> 01:20:30,333
read it. You picked it up. Yeah.

608
01:20:30,375 --> 01:20:32,666
And I sort of read occasionally, I think,

609
01:20:32,875 --> 01:20:34,875
you know, like I said, like one of my

610
01:20:34,875 --> 01:20:36,375
favorite paragraphs, any science paper,

611
01:20:36,625 --> 01:20:38,500
it clearly was inspired by that because I

612
01:20:38,500 --> 01:20:41,000
think it starts. It's time to nail the

613
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:43,541
list of conjunct the and Harris is to the

614
01:20:43,541 --> 01:20:45,750
cathedral door of marine biology.

615
01:20:46,375 --> 01:20:48,291
Yeah, and then it just goes on a short

616
01:20:48,291 --> 01:20:51,083
rant, which is really great. Right,

617
01:20:51,083 --> 01:20:53,208
right. And he talks about the talk. He

618
01:20:53,208 --> 01:20:54,541
refers to the rise of

619
01:20:54,541 --> 01:20:55,333
the fabulous furballs.

620
01:20:56,375 --> 01:20:58,833
Which were the mammals that took over

621
01:20:58,833 --> 01:21:01,375
from the dinosaurs. He comments on that,

622
01:21:01,375 --> 01:21:03,208
too. And he acknowledges Bakker and the

623
01:21:03,208 --> 01:21:05,791
acknowledgments, too. But again, anyway,

624
01:21:05,791 --> 01:21:07,125
listen to this thing.

625
01:21:07,375 --> 01:21:10,500
Yeah. This paper, if you can't find it,

626
01:21:11,500 --> 01:21:15,041
hit me or Chris up. We'll just just

627
01:21:15,041 --> 01:21:17,916
direct DMS and we'll give you the

628
01:21:17,916 --> 01:21:19,625
reference. But that's an absolute paper

629
01:21:19,625 --> 01:21:22,125
you need to read on that thing. It's just

630
01:21:22,125 --> 01:21:23,166
it's just such a good. It's

631
01:21:23,166 --> 01:21:24,333
such a such a good paper to read.

632
01:21:25,375 --> 01:21:27,625
Well, I'm glad I was glad to hear it.

633
01:21:27,625 --> 01:21:29,083
Glad to hear that. That kind of inspired

634
01:21:29,083 --> 01:21:32,000
you to as far as your the work you did. I

635
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:34,625
thought the whole stuff you're doing with

636
01:21:34,625 --> 01:21:37,875
the brains and all that stuff was was

637
01:21:37,875 --> 01:21:39,583
pretty cool. I just was kind of curious.

638
01:21:39,583 --> 01:21:41,791
I never really asked you how that whole

639
01:21:41,791 --> 01:21:43,083
came about with the

640
01:21:43,083 --> 01:21:44,333
connection between Kara and Nick.

641
01:21:44,375 --> 01:21:45,375
Yeah. But I think there's kind of this, I would say, like, kind of overarching idea. And like, you know, Nick is obviously obviously a lot of my scientific endeavors and ideas are obviously shaped by my advisors and things. But he had this idea. And I think
it sort of guides his research now. It's like, let's say you're on your deserted island and you find that this new species of shark. What can you tell about its behavior, life history, ecology, anything just by what you have in your hands? You can't just

642
01:22:14,375 --> 01:22:16,458
track it. Yeah, but you know, you can

643
01:22:16,458 --> 01:22:18,291
look at things like the brain, which we

644
01:22:18,291 --> 01:22:21,541
can infer a lot about behavior, sensory

645
01:22:21,541 --> 01:22:23,791
specializations, energetic requirements.

646
01:22:23,791 --> 01:22:25,500
If that you can infer things maybe about

647
01:22:25,500 --> 01:22:27,666
habitat, their feeding modes, their

648
01:22:27,666 --> 01:22:30,416
behaviors. If you look at things like the

649
01:22:30,416 --> 01:22:32,833
gills, can you understand their metabolic

650
01:22:32,833 --> 01:22:35,291
requirements? So the idea that your gill

651
01:22:35,291 --> 01:22:37,833
surface area is a limiting factor in how

652
01:22:37,833 --> 01:22:39,958
much oxygen you can uptake and also how

653
01:22:39,958 --> 01:22:44,291
much waste gases you can can really

654
01:22:44,375 --> 01:22:46,791
so the idea is you can you can really

655
01:22:46,791 --> 01:22:48,500
learn a lot about an animal by looking at

656
01:22:48,500 --> 01:22:52,000
its morphology. And so I think that's

657
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:53,458
been kind of an overarching thing for a

658
01:22:53,458 --> 01:22:55,041
lot of the stuff that he's done. And then

659
01:22:55,041 --> 01:22:57,583
obviously, you know, you're always guided

660
01:22:57,583 --> 01:23:00,708
by your scientific mentors. You know,

661
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:02,166
Nick and Kara obviously have been huge

662
01:23:02,166 --> 01:23:03,875
ones for me. But even, you know, Chris,

663
01:23:03,875 --> 01:23:06,458
when I was doing my masters, his big

664
01:23:06,458 --> 01:23:07,875
thing was like, you know, think about

665
01:23:07,875 --> 01:23:09,125
everything that you know, it was like a

666
01:23:09,125 --> 01:23:10,916
tool in your toolbox. So that's why I've

667
01:23:10,916 --> 01:23:12,000
always tried to learn new

668
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:14,166
skills. And it's, you know,

669
01:23:14,708 --> 01:23:15,875
it helps to be a more well rounded

670
01:23:15,875 --> 01:23:17,375
scientist helps you have conversations

671
01:23:17,375 --> 01:23:18,916
with different people, but also I think

672
01:23:18,916 --> 01:23:20,625
helps you ask better

673
01:23:20,625 --> 01:23:22,208
questions to ultimately.

674
01:23:24,166 --> 01:23:25,333
And then even, you know, what I've been

675
01:23:25,333 --> 01:23:27,791
doing more recently. So my last postdoc

676
01:23:27,791 --> 01:23:29,791
working with Aaron McNeil on the shark

677
01:23:29,791 --> 01:23:31,458
meat project, you know, took some of

678
01:23:31,458 --> 01:23:33,625
those skills that the taxonomy that I've

679
01:23:33,625 --> 01:23:35,208
been working on the phylogenetic stuff.

680
01:23:35,833 --> 01:23:37,833
And put that towards more applied stuff

681
01:23:37,833 --> 01:23:39,500
and then building on like quantitative

682
01:23:39,500 --> 01:23:42,666
skills and modeling. So and then it's

683
01:23:42,666 --> 01:23:44,041
really cool to have, you know, research

684
01:23:44,041 --> 01:23:46,541
that's much more applied as well,

685
01:23:46,750 --> 01:23:48,041
especially considering the current sort

686
01:23:48,041 --> 01:23:49,750
of conservation crisis

687
01:23:49,750 --> 01:23:50,875
facing sharks and rays.

688
01:23:53,625 --> 01:23:54,791
Yeah, well,

689
01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:58,708
I think you hit on a good you've hit on a

690
01:23:58,708 --> 01:24:01,083
good point that young people listening to

691
01:24:01,083 --> 01:24:03,250
is you learned throughout your career so

692
01:24:03,250 --> 01:24:04,791
far, you've always made an effort to

693
01:24:04,791 --> 01:24:08,041
learn new skills. And I think, you know,

694
01:24:08,041 --> 01:24:10,541
you're out there looking for a position

695
01:24:10,541 --> 01:24:12,541
now, but those skills are going to help

696
01:24:12,541 --> 01:24:15,041
you get a position somewhere more than

697
01:24:15,041 --> 01:24:17,833
how much you know about, you know, the

698
01:24:17,833 --> 01:24:20,791
brain construction of, you know, Brown Stingray or something.

699
01:24:21,791 --> 01:24:25,666
And I always tell students like I can,

700
01:24:25,958 --> 01:24:27,583
you know, like myself or Nick or Carol

701
01:24:27,583 --> 01:24:29,041
will teach about all you want to know

702
01:24:29,041 --> 01:24:32,041
about raising sharks. But the skills are

703
01:24:32,041 --> 01:24:34,166
what's going to help you get a position

704
01:24:34,166 --> 01:24:36,166
somewhere. So always just learn skill as

705
01:24:36,166 --> 01:24:38,625
many skills like you did. You're in the

706
01:24:38,625 --> 01:24:40,541
you're one of the best examples. I could

707
01:24:40,541 --> 01:24:42,125
think of recently we've had on head on

708
01:24:42,125 --> 01:24:44,083
the show, a young person who just like

709
01:24:44,083 --> 01:24:46,750
really got a lot of a wide range of

710
01:24:46,750 --> 01:24:48,333
skills as you've gone

711
01:24:48,333 --> 01:24:48,791
along so far earlier.

712
01:24:48,791 --> 01:24:53,958
career, you know, and definitely a lot of

713
01:24:53,958 --> 01:24:56,458
diversity, diversity in that. So so you

714
01:24:56,458 --> 01:24:58,750
got through you got through your how'd

715
01:24:58,750 --> 01:25:01,083
you have just out of again, how'd you

716
01:25:01,083 --> 01:25:03,500
have to pick Nick, Sam Simon Fraser,

717
01:25:03,500 --> 01:25:07,000
how'd that come about? So he had just

718
01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:08,791
started, or he'd been there for about a year. And so he had

719
01:25:09,791 --> 01:25:14,000
must have had like some startup funds,

720
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:17,333
but you know, he was looking for for PhD

721
01:25:17,333 --> 01:25:19,708
students and so myself and other guy,

722
01:25:19,708 --> 01:25:21,708
Rohan Trebical ended up his first PhD

723
01:25:21,708 --> 01:25:23,250
students. And we worked on really

724
01:25:23,250 --> 01:25:24,458
different things. You know, Nick is also

725
01:25:24,458 --> 01:25:26,458
a really broad scientist, works on all

726
01:25:26,458 --> 01:25:28,083
different things. Yeah, he worked on

727
01:25:28,083 --> 01:25:30,541
coral reef fish before. So that's kind of

728
01:25:30,541 --> 01:25:33,083
more what my buddy Rohan was doing and I

729
01:25:33,083 --> 01:25:34,791
was kind of really into the shark and

730
01:25:34,791 --> 01:25:36,791
right stuff. And it was it was cool because everyone in Nick's office had a lot of fun.

731
01:25:36,833 --> 01:25:38,958
It was cool because everyone in Nick's

732
01:25:38,958 --> 01:25:41,000
lab worked on something different. So

733
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:43,416
there are people doing life history,

734
01:25:43,750 --> 01:25:46,250
people looking at distributions and

735
01:25:46,250 --> 01:25:47,666
conservation. And then obviously, at the

736
01:25:47,666 --> 01:25:51,125
time, Nick was, he was just starting out

737
01:25:51,125 --> 01:25:53,583
as the IUCN co chair. So obviously, a lot

738
01:25:53,583 --> 01:25:55,166
of students that came in subsequently

739
01:25:55,166 --> 01:25:57,625
worked on that sort of stuff. But it was

740
01:25:57,625 --> 01:26:00,333
just a really cool lab, where, you know,

741
01:26:00,333 --> 01:26:02,750
we all learned from each other was

742
01:26:02,750 --> 01:26:04,291
working on. So whether it was

743
01:26:04,333 --> 01:26:07,500
a trophic dynamics and trophic pyramids

744
01:26:07,500 --> 01:26:10,750
or age and growth, or neurobiology or

745
01:26:10,750 --> 01:26:12,666
conservation, like, everyone's always

746
01:26:12,666 --> 01:26:13,916
working on something different. And it

747
01:26:13,916 --> 01:26:16,833
was kind of the same in Chris's lab and

748
01:26:16,833 --> 01:26:18,458
his own master's was a big lab, we all

749
01:26:18,458 --> 01:26:19,666
helped each other out and work on

750
01:26:19,666 --> 01:26:21,666
different people's projects. I think that

751
01:26:21,666 --> 01:26:23,750
was, that was kind of a key to sort of

752
01:26:23,750 --> 01:26:25,291
the success in both those places, which

753
01:26:25,291 --> 01:26:26,666
is having people working on different

754
01:26:26,666 --> 01:26:28,500
things. So you can always jump into

755
01:26:28,500 --> 01:26:31,625
something new, whether it's going out in

756
01:26:31,625 --> 01:26:32,958
the field with somebody in Long Beach.

757
01:26:34,666 --> 01:26:35,166
And then you can also dive in for

758
01:26:35,166 --> 01:26:38,250
rockfish or diving on the platforms, or

759
01:26:38,250 --> 01:26:41,000
whether it was, you know, just thinking

760
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:45,041
about people's figures or analyses at SFU

761
01:26:45,041 --> 01:26:47,041
in Nick's lab. So there's always

762
01:26:47,041 --> 01:26:49,666
something new to do. It's keeps you

763
01:26:49,666 --> 01:26:50,666
interested and keeps you motivated. And

764
01:26:50,666 --> 01:26:54,375
also, it just keeps everything fresh. So

765
01:26:54,375 --> 01:26:55,833
you don't get kind of bogged down in like

766
01:26:55,833 --> 01:26:57,208
the one thing that you're working on.

767
01:26:58,333 --> 01:27:00,541
So go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead.

768
01:27:00,916 --> 01:27:03,541
So you've had quite a array of

769
01:27:03,541 --> 01:27:06,458
postdoctoral positions in Canada, US and

770
01:27:06,458 --> 01:27:10,708
Australia. I'm curious, to people

771
01:27:10,708 --> 01:27:13,166
interested, how did you wind up with such

772
01:27:13,166 --> 01:27:15,541
a diverse, I mean, in so

773
01:27:15,541 --> 01:27:16,291
many different locations?

774
01:27:17,333 --> 01:27:19,125
Yeah, well, I mean, part of it is kind of

775
01:27:19,125 --> 01:27:21,458
like, you know, taking the skills that I

776
01:27:21,458 --> 01:27:22,750
have in applying them towards different

777
01:27:22,750 --> 01:27:25,541
systems. So what I've what I finished up

778
01:27:25,541 --> 01:27:27,500
my first postdoc was was still working

779
01:27:27,500 --> 01:27:29,208
with Nick, but it was part of a larger

780
01:27:29,208 --> 01:27:31,583
project with Colin

781
01:27:31,583 --> 01:27:33,083
Simpfendorfer and Michelle Heiple,

782
01:27:33,958 --> 01:27:36,083
and it was a shark ray MPA project. So

783
01:27:36,083 --> 01:27:39,625
the idea is, what can we do to help

784
01:27:39,625 --> 01:27:42,083
optimize the design of MPAs for sharks

785
01:27:42,083 --> 01:27:44,250
and rays? We still have a we still have a

786
01:27:44,250 --> 01:27:45,166
couple things in the works that are

787
01:27:45,166 --> 01:27:48,125
coming out. But so I came aboard to kind

788
01:27:48,125 --> 01:27:50,375
of look at using the phylogenetic

789
01:27:50,375 --> 01:27:52,333
comparative approach to look at what

790
01:27:52,333 --> 01:27:54,875
things sort of shape and drive the

791
01:27:54,875 --> 01:27:57,416
movement activity or

792
01:27:57,416 --> 01:27:59,000
behavior of a different species.

793
01:27:59,333 --> 01:28:01,583
Things like dispersal. So how far animals

794
01:28:01,583 --> 01:28:04,375
move from point A to point B, and also

795
01:28:04,375 --> 01:28:06,875
activity space. So the idea, if you can

796
01:28:06,875 --> 01:28:08,291
understand what speak, what drives

797
01:28:08,291 --> 01:28:09,875
species needs for space, you know,

798
01:28:09,875 --> 01:28:10,791
whether it's foraging

799
01:28:10,791 --> 01:28:12,708
movement, those types of things.

800
01:28:13,416 --> 01:28:15,625
How can you optimize MPAs in a particular

801
01:28:15,625 --> 01:28:17,500
area? So let's say you go to a new place,

802
01:28:17,500 --> 01:28:19,291
you want to put an MPa there. How big

803
01:28:19,291 --> 01:28:20,750
does it need to be to protect the sharks

804
01:28:20,750 --> 01:28:21,541
and rays? Or how does

805
01:28:21,541 --> 01:28:22,291
it need to be designed?

806
01:28:22,333 --> 01:28:25,041
And so it's really fun, because it's

807
01:28:25,041 --> 01:28:27,458
really started to, even though I've done

808
01:28:27,458 --> 01:28:28,583
a master's in Chris's lab, this first

809
01:28:28,583 --> 01:28:30,166
time, I really got to work with telemetry

810
01:28:30,166 --> 01:28:32,416
data directly. So there are some really

811
01:28:32,416 --> 01:28:33,791
great movement ecologists that we worked

812
01:28:33,791 --> 01:28:37,541
with, Vinay Udiweir and Ross Dwyer, and

813
01:28:37,541 --> 01:28:39,708
we sort of got to use a lot of the

814
01:28:41,166 --> 01:28:42,250
data to understand how we can do that. And this is also where it kind of started

815
01:28:42,250 --> 01:28:44,458
to jump into big data. We use data from

816
01:28:44,458 --> 01:28:46,916
I'm OSTN tag animals, whether it's

817
01:28:46,916 --> 01:28:48,833
acoustic tags, conventional tags, or

818
01:28:48,833 --> 01:28:50,041
satellite tags to kind of build

819
01:28:50,041 --> 01:28:51,958
mechanistic models to understand these

820
01:28:51,958 --> 01:28:53,958
sorts of things. And we're still working

821
01:28:53,958 --> 01:28:55,958
on the research outputs from this, but

822
01:28:55,958 --> 01:28:57,916
that was kind of the first

823
01:28:57,916 --> 01:28:59,750
foray into that. And then

824
01:29:02,333 --> 01:29:03,708
the first one was a much shorter one. It

825
01:29:03,708 --> 01:29:08,833
was down in Tasmania working at UTAS. And

826
01:29:08,833 --> 01:29:10,875
the idea was to, again, take that

827
01:29:10,875 --> 01:29:12,583
phylogenetic comparative approach and

828
01:29:12,583 --> 01:29:14,083
look at life history diversity of

829
01:29:14,083 --> 01:29:18,000
penguins. So again, it's a much more, I

830
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:19,250
guess we'd call it in variant groups,

831
01:29:19,250 --> 01:29:20,791
obviously, they're all egg layers,

832
01:29:20,791 --> 01:29:22,916
they're sort of restricted range,

833
01:29:24,333 --> 01:29:26,791
but if you think about sort of extinct

834
01:29:26,791 --> 01:29:28,208
species of penguins, especially like the

835
01:29:28,208 --> 01:29:29,541
giant penguins, things that caught up

836
01:29:29,541 --> 01:29:31,750
into South America, further up into

837
01:29:31,750 --> 01:29:34,416
Africa as well. There's a huge amount of

838
01:29:34,416 --> 01:29:36,458
diversity there. So again, it's taking

839
01:29:36,458 --> 01:29:37,875
that phylogenetic comparative approach

840
01:29:37,875 --> 01:29:39,291
and just applying it to a new problem.

841
01:29:39,333 --> 01:29:45,458
And then from there, that's what I came

842
01:29:45,458 --> 01:29:51,208
back to Canada. And this is kind of when

843
01:29:51,208 --> 01:29:53,708
we first started like an idea that had

844
01:29:53,708 --> 01:29:56,541
been percolating during my PhD cancer

845
01:29:56,541 --> 01:29:58,875
frolitions. So what you'd mentioned

846
01:29:58,875 --> 01:30:03,041
earlier, Dave, Sharkopedia. So this is an

847
01:30:03,041 --> 01:30:05,500
open access database that we've created

848
01:30:05,500 --> 01:30:08,291
to provide access for reliable key data.

849
01:30:08,333 --> 01:30:09,708
And then we have our reliable curated

850
01:30:09,708 --> 01:30:12,208
life history traits and population

851
01:30:12,208 --> 01:30:14,416
abundance trends of all sharks and rays.

852
01:30:14,666 --> 01:30:18,500
So it started out as shark traits. So

853
01:30:18,500 --> 01:30:21,333
myself and another PhD student sub part

854
01:30:21,333 --> 01:30:24,500
at the time came up with the idea because

855
01:30:24,500 --> 01:30:26,750
we were both building our own life

856
01:30:26,750 --> 01:30:28,541
history databases and we realized there's

857
01:30:28,541 --> 01:30:30,250
a lot of like duplicated effort here.

858
01:30:30,333 --> 01:30:31,500
And so we're doing this all the time.

859
01:30:33,791 --> 01:30:36,666
Or, you know, we're having to like

860
01:30:36,666 --> 01:30:38,625
everyone's reinventing the wheel. So if

861
01:30:38,625 --> 01:30:40,583
someone's doing their own comparative

862
01:30:40,583 --> 01:30:41,833
paper, they're building their own

863
01:30:41,833 --> 01:30:43,458
database, they might be missing things.

864
01:30:43,458 --> 01:30:46,875
The idea was to just reduce people's time

865
01:30:46,875 --> 01:30:48,916
and effort also get around paywalls.

866
01:30:49,625 --> 01:30:50,958
So people at some universities might not

867
01:30:50,958 --> 01:30:53,291
have access to every paper. So like if

868
01:30:53,291 --> 01:30:55,166
people can't access Leonard Campano's

869
01:30:55,166 --> 01:30:59,166
paper, we have that available. And so

870
01:30:59,166 --> 01:31:02,291
that we started that with support from

871
01:31:02,291 --> 01:31:03,666
the Shark Conservation Fund.

872
01:31:04,416 --> 01:31:06,166
And then we brought that together with

873
01:31:06,166 --> 01:31:08,458
the Global Shark Trends project, which

874
01:31:08,458 --> 01:31:10,000
Nick had, which was these abundance time

875
01:31:10,000 --> 01:31:12,541
series. We brought those together into a

876
01:31:12,541 --> 01:31:14,458
single database Sharkopedia.

877
01:31:15,333 --> 01:31:17,250
And so it's mostly been supported by

878
01:31:17,250 --> 01:31:18,791
Shark Conservation Fund and Save Our Seas

879
01:31:18,791 --> 01:31:20,291
and it's something we're still working

880
01:31:20,291 --> 01:31:23,916
on. And we're trying to expand it. Our

881
01:31:23,916 --> 01:31:25,875
coverage. We're going to be running a

882
01:31:25,875 --> 01:31:28,708
workshop at Sharks International next

883
01:31:28,708 --> 01:31:31,166
year, focusing on data from around the

884
01:31:31,166 --> 01:31:33,000
Indian Ocean and early career researchers

885
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:35,875
and just getting other people access to

886
01:31:35,875 --> 01:31:38,375
it, training people and bringing in more

887
01:31:38,375 --> 01:31:39,791
data that we don't necessarily have

888
01:31:39,791 --> 01:31:41,083
access to ourselves.

889
01:31:42,333 --> 01:31:45,625
And also, even that has kind of developed

890
01:31:45,625 --> 01:31:46,916
into something that's more conservation

891
01:31:46,916 --> 01:31:49,500
oriented. So you're both familiar with

892
01:31:49,500 --> 01:31:51,916
CITES, Convention on International Trade

893
01:31:51,916 --> 01:31:54,625
and Endangered Species. So for any

894
01:31:54,625 --> 01:31:57,250
species that CITES listed under, that's

895
01:31:57,250 --> 01:31:59,916
listed under Appendix 2, those species

896
01:31:59,916 --> 01:32:02,208
can be traded, but in order to do so,

897
01:32:02,208 --> 01:32:03,166
they have to have a

898
01:32:03,166 --> 01:32:04,291
non detriment finding.

899
01:32:04,333 --> 01:32:07,750
And so countries basically have to show

900
01:32:07,750 --> 01:32:09,916
their work and say that their fishery is

901
01:32:09,916 --> 01:32:12,250
not impacting the population. And a part

902
01:32:12,250 --> 01:32:14,708
of that framework, and if they have to do

903
01:32:14,708 --> 01:32:15,500
that is sort of

904
01:32:15,500 --> 01:32:17,083
intrinsic biological information.

905
01:32:17,833 --> 01:32:19,291
And to make that process more

906
01:32:19,291 --> 01:32:21,500
streamlined, some folks at Blue

907
01:32:21,500 --> 01:32:23,583
Resources, Daniel Fernando, actually at

908
01:32:23,583 --> 01:32:25,500
TANNA developed the ENDF. So it's an

909
01:32:25,500 --> 01:32:28,041
electronic form of this. It makes it more

910
01:32:28,041 --> 01:32:29,291
reproducible, rapid

911
01:32:29,291 --> 01:32:30,083
and that sort of thing.

912
01:32:30,333 --> 01:32:32,666
And that actually uses Sharkopedia as the

913
01:32:32,666 --> 01:32:35,375
back end to build out the intrinsic

914
01:32:35,375 --> 01:32:36,958
biological information. So anything that

915
01:32:36,958 --> 01:32:38,875
goes into Sharkopedia is now going

916
01:32:38,875 --> 01:32:40,666
directly into the NDF process to help the

917
01:32:40,666 --> 01:32:43,541
implementation and enforcement of CITES.

918
01:32:44,958 --> 01:32:47,250
So we're trying to just make these things

919
01:32:47,250 --> 01:32:51,166
more widely usable and applicable and

920
01:32:51,166 --> 01:32:53,208
increase uptake, but at the same time,

921
01:32:53,208 --> 01:32:54,458
just putting the information in the hands

922
01:32:54,458 --> 01:32:55,833
of anyone who needs it, whether it's

923
01:32:55,833 --> 01:32:58,583
researchers, conservationists, managers,

924
01:32:59,166 --> 01:32:59,333
those types of things.

925
01:33:00,333 --> 01:33:02,083
So things like the Sharkopedia stuff

926
01:33:02,083 --> 01:33:03,791
that's as accessible on the internet.

927
01:33:04,125 --> 01:33:05,833
Are you having trouble hearing me, Dave?

928
01:33:06,458 --> 01:33:07,625
Yeah, a little bit.

929
01:33:09,500 --> 01:33:11,208
You're kind of coming to go a little bit.

930
01:33:11,208 --> 01:33:12,291
There's a couple of places I didn't hear

931
01:33:12,291 --> 01:33:13,416
you very much. But yeah, I just...

932
01:33:14,083 --> 01:33:16,875
So if I say something that you may have

933
01:33:16,875 --> 01:33:19,666
answered, I just will work it out. We'll

934
01:33:19,666 --> 01:33:21,250
edit it and stuff. So the

935
01:33:21,250 --> 01:33:22,250
Sharkopedia thing is that...

936
01:33:23,750 --> 01:33:26,208
I didn't hear a few. Is it web-based

937
01:33:26,208 --> 01:33:28,291
pretty much? The Sharkopedia?

938
01:33:29,333 --> 01:33:32,916
Yeah, so we have a website. So it's yeah,

939
01:33:32,916 --> 01:33:36,500
it's sharkopedia.org. So you can go, you

940
01:33:36,500 --> 01:33:39,416
can search by species, you can search by

941
01:33:39,416 --> 01:33:43,250
trait or trend. So we have information on

942
01:33:43,250 --> 01:33:45,000
age and growth, reproduction,

943
01:33:45,583 --> 01:33:48,041
demographics, things like relationships.

944
01:33:48,333 --> 01:33:50,625
So length, weight, length, length,

945
01:33:50,625 --> 01:33:52,416
relationships, so conversion ratios,

946
01:33:52,416 --> 01:33:54,791
those types of things. And then all the

947
01:33:54,791 --> 01:33:57,166
population trends are available. And one

948
01:33:57,166 --> 01:33:58,583
of the things we wanted to

949
01:33:58,583 --> 01:33:59,833
do was build on fish base.

950
01:34:00,125 --> 01:34:02,250
So fish base is a great resource, but

951
01:34:02,250 --> 01:34:05,916
everything is kind of boiled down. So

952
01:34:05,916 --> 01:34:08,208
let's say you want to go and look up

953
01:34:08,208 --> 01:34:09,916
blacktip shark, carcrannus, lumbatus.

954
01:34:10,250 --> 01:34:11,083
What is the age and

955
01:34:11,083 --> 01:34:11,291
growth estimate of it?

956
01:34:11,333 --> 01:34:14,000
You're going to get a single estimate of

957
01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:16,500
age and growth parameters. But when you

958
01:34:16,500 --> 01:34:18,125
do that, you lose a lot of resolution,

959
01:34:18,125 --> 01:34:19,500
especially for species that are wide

960
01:34:19,500 --> 01:34:23,083
ranging populations might differ. So we

961
01:34:23,083 --> 01:34:23,666
maintain the

962
01:34:23,666 --> 01:34:25,291
resolution of all of the data.

963
01:34:26,583 --> 01:34:29,333
So you can search by parameter, even if

964
01:34:29,333 --> 01:34:30,958
you want to search by growth model, those

965
01:34:30,958 --> 01:34:33,083
types of things. And then ultimately,

966
01:34:33,083 --> 01:34:34,833
everything is traceable back to a

967
01:34:34,833 --> 01:34:37,750
resource. So people can use this to

968
01:34:37,750 --> 01:34:39,791
freely generate their own

969
01:34:39,791 --> 01:34:40,333
data set that they want to use.

970
01:34:41,333 --> 01:34:41,500
So we want to look at this for

971
01:34:41,500 --> 01:34:45,625
comparative analysis or, again, for doing

972
01:34:45,625 --> 01:34:47,916
things like conservation information or

973
01:34:47,916 --> 01:34:49,541
intrinsic biological information of

974
01:34:49,541 --> 01:34:51,333
exploited species, those types of things.

975
01:34:52,416 --> 01:34:53,708
And then, you know, we ultimately want to

976
01:34:53,708 --> 01:34:56,000
expand this with some other information.

977
01:34:56,416 --> 01:34:57,791
So some of like the threat information

978
01:34:57,791 --> 01:34:59,250
that we're working on, so outputs from

979
01:34:59,250 --> 01:35:00,875
like the Global Shark Meat Project and

980
01:35:00,875 --> 01:35:03,416
these types of things. So estimates of

981
01:35:03,416 --> 01:35:05,416
like fisheries landings per species,

982
01:35:05,791 --> 01:35:07,291
trade per species and commodity type.

983
01:35:07,333 --> 01:35:10,208
And ultimately, this is always going to

984
01:35:10,208 --> 01:35:11,958
be freely available for everyone. That's

985
01:35:11,958 --> 01:35:16,000
kind of the first thing it was built on.

986
01:35:16,208 --> 01:35:18,250
And it's also curated information. So

987
01:35:18,250 --> 01:35:20,791
anytime data gets submitted, an editor

988
01:35:20,791 --> 01:35:23,291
such as myself or others will check the

989
01:35:23,291 --> 01:35:24,208
data before it actually gets

990
01:35:24,208 --> 01:35:26,291
imported and becomes available.

991
01:35:26,333 --> 01:35:30,333
And so it'll always be up there. People

992
01:35:30,333 --> 01:35:32,708
can use it. Sharkopd.org. If you ever

993
01:35:32,708 --> 01:35:35,166
have any people want to submit data, they

994
01:35:35,166 --> 01:35:37,625
totally can submit their own data. If

995
01:35:37,625 --> 01:35:39,333
they find a paper of theirs is included.

996
01:35:53,333 --> 01:35:58,500
And so we're running a workshop right

997
01:35:58,500 --> 01:36:03,500
before the meeting. And we'll be trying

998
01:36:03,500 --> 01:36:05,083
to get as many early career people from

999
01:36:05,083 --> 01:36:06,500
around the Indian Ocean as possible

1000
01:36:06,500 --> 01:36:08,041
because it's a really critically

1001
01:36:08,041 --> 01:36:08,291
important area for for Global Shark and any conservation.

1002
01:36:08,333 --> 01:36:14,958
So a lot of places have really good

1003
01:36:14,958 --> 01:36:17,666
fisheries management. So the goal for

1004
01:36:17,666 --> 01:36:20,750
Australia, Canada, for example, good

1005
01:36:20,750 --> 01:36:23,000
fisheries management. But there's a lot

1006
01:36:23,000 --> 01:36:23,291
of places that have really high shark and ray biodiversity and don't.

1007
01:36:23,333 --> 01:36:28,916
And so what they're missing is capacity

1008
01:36:28,916 --> 01:36:32,375
and information to help them develop

1009
01:36:32,375 --> 01:36:34,208
fisheries management strategies,

1010
01:36:34,500 --> 01:36:36,041
conservation strategies. And so we want

1011
01:36:36,041 --> 01:36:38,875
to provide that for them. And then also

1012
01:36:38,875 --> 01:36:40,541
build the capacity in those places so

1013
01:36:40,541 --> 01:36:42,541
they can they can continue on. So it's

1014
01:36:42,541 --> 01:36:44,083
not that we don't want to be the only

1015
01:36:44,083 --> 01:36:45,458
ones doing it. The more people that are

1016
01:36:45,458 --> 01:36:46,125
part of the community.

1017
01:36:46,458 --> 01:36:47,458
It's definitely an area of high

1018
01:36:47,458 --> 01:36:48,708
biodiversity. That's for sure.

1019
01:36:50,625 --> 01:36:51,291
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1020
01:36:51,333 --> 01:36:55,500
You're definitely a good. So you're

1021
01:36:55,500 --> 01:36:56,916
definitely a good area there with the

1022
01:36:56,916 --> 01:36:59,458
terms of high biodiversity and stuff. So

1023
01:36:59,458 --> 01:37:01,666
I should be I should be very good. I'm

1024
01:37:01,666 --> 01:37:03,666
hoping to be there. So hopefully I'll

1025
01:37:03,666 --> 01:37:06,875
see. Yeah, hopefully. I'm sure I hear the

1026
01:37:06,875 --> 01:37:07,416
sharks and national

1027
01:37:07,416 --> 01:37:08,666
meetings are always really fun.

1028
01:37:09,375 --> 01:37:12,375
Sri Lankan. Oh, yeah, they're like

1029
01:37:12,375 --> 01:37:14,000
they're like the go to meeting for me

1030
01:37:14,000 --> 01:37:15,958
these days. It's like it's it's only once

1031
01:37:15,958 --> 01:37:18,125
every four years. So it's kind of a great

1032
01:37:18,125 --> 01:37:19,291
good, good gathering point. A lot of people I see a lot of people that are like, oh, I'm not sure what you're looking for.

1033
01:37:19,333 --> 01:37:20,208
But I think it's a good gathering point.

1034
01:37:20,208 --> 01:37:21,416
A lot of people I see a lot of people at

1035
01:37:21,416 --> 01:37:23,833
those meetings that we don't don't

1036
01:37:23,833 --> 01:37:25,666
normally I don't normally see like in an

1037
01:37:25,666 --> 01:37:28,708
AAS meeting or even OCS meeting. You just

1038
01:37:28,708 --> 01:37:31,041
get a lot of people that are able to go

1039
01:37:31,041 --> 01:37:32,875
to those meetings. So I think it'll be I

1040
01:37:32,875 --> 01:37:34,500
think it'll be pretty well at least the

1041
01:37:34,500 --> 01:37:35,500
international people do international

1042
01:37:35,500 --> 01:37:39,208
work will be there. Yeah, yeah. I think

1043
01:37:39,208 --> 01:37:41,166
pretty well show up show up pretty well

1044
01:37:41,166 --> 01:37:43,000
for that. So and then always in really

1045
01:37:43,000 --> 01:37:46,500
nice locations too. So yeah, yeah, it is

1046
01:37:46,500 --> 01:37:48,291
Sri Lankan extra going to be a lot of fun. I think it's a lot of fun.

1047
01:37:48,333 --> 01:37:50,666
I think it's exactly definitely doesn't

1048
01:37:50,666 --> 01:37:52,708
hurt when it's somewhere nice to go. I'm

1049
01:37:52,708 --> 01:37:54,000
sure I'll have Daniel for Daniel

1050
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:55,458
Fernandez been on the show here before

1051
01:37:55,458 --> 01:37:57,791
before. Cool. And some some people back

1052
01:37:57,791 --> 01:37:59,583
next year to talk about the probably the

1053
01:37:59,583 --> 01:38:01,166
Sharks International both before and

1054
01:38:01,166 --> 01:38:05,125
afterwards. So we'll get some more. In

1055
01:38:05,125 --> 01:38:07,375
fact, we had we had Paul Cox and Ali hood

1056
01:38:07,375 --> 01:38:10,291
on when they had the last one in 2022. So

1057
01:38:10,291 --> 01:38:12,458
we'll yeah, yeah, sure be talking about

1058
01:38:12,458 --> 01:38:13,916
that. Maybe we'll have one of you or Nick

1059
01:38:13,916 --> 01:38:15,375
or somebody on to come talk a little more

1060
01:38:15,375 --> 01:38:16,500
about this your

1061
01:38:16,500 --> 01:38:17,291
workshop. Yeah, as well. Yeah.

1062
01:38:17,333 --> 01:38:20,458
Or after every really good. I'm really

1063
01:38:20,458 --> 01:38:22,291
cool. If you're very young person out

1064
01:38:22,291 --> 01:38:24,000
there, that's definitely a good if you

1065
01:38:24,000 --> 01:38:26,291
can afford to get to Sri Lanka, it's

1066
01:38:26,291 --> 01:38:28,500
really it's definitely the conference to

1067
01:38:28,500 --> 01:38:30,541
go to. Yeah, start applying for funding

1068
01:38:30,541 --> 01:38:33,083
now, I would say for the work. I think

1069
01:38:33,083 --> 01:38:35,041
it's May next year, right? May 20. Yeah.

1070
01:38:35,041 --> 01:38:37,583
Yeah. Work that extra job if you need to.

1071
01:38:38,208 --> 01:38:41,500
You know, so yeah, yeah, sometimes you

1072
01:38:41,500 --> 01:38:46,000
have to look into that. Yeah. Yeah. So

1073
01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:47,291
you got so you got the the the the

1074
01:38:47,333 --> 01:38:58,875
the the. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so driving

1075
01:38:58,875 --> 01:39:01,208
across Canada, this is this is going to

1076
01:39:01,208 --> 01:39:03,291
be the third time that I've done it. Uh

1077
01:39:03,291 --> 01:39:06,041
we're going a little bit slower this

1078
01:39:06,041 --> 01:39:08,750
time, which is taking our time. Um so

1079
01:39:08,750 --> 01:39:10,791
yeah, I teach. I teach a class at

1080
01:39:10,791 --> 01:39:13,166
Dalhousie every summer. It's the biology

1081
01:39:13,166 --> 01:39:15,750
and conservation Sharks and Rays. And

1082
01:39:15,750 --> 01:39:17,291
it's it's a really fun class. It's cool. Yeah. And I don't know if you've

1083
01:39:17,333 --> 01:39:20,583
to teach for the students at Dalhousie, I

1084
01:39:20,583 --> 01:39:21,208
think for a lot of them

1085
01:39:21,208 --> 01:39:22,083
it's kind of a highlight.

1086
01:39:22,916 --> 01:39:24,916
So Halifax is cold a lot of the time,

1087
01:39:24,916 --> 01:39:25,500
there's not a lot of

1088
01:39:25,500 --> 01:39:26,708
opportunities to get out in the field,

1089
01:39:26,708 --> 01:39:30,833
but summers are really nice and there's a

1090
01:39:30,833 --> 01:39:32,291
really high biodiversity

1091
01:39:32,291 --> 01:39:34,125
of things just off the coast

1092
01:39:34,208 --> 01:39:37,208
of Halifax. So one of the big components

1093
01:39:37,208 --> 01:39:38,291
is we do some field

1094
01:39:38,291 --> 01:39:39,666
work. So we go out and we

1095
01:39:40,125 --> 01:39:42,500
tag blue sharks just offshore. So we go

1096
01:39:42,500 --> 01:39:45,541
about 10 miles offshore and

1097
01:39:45,541 --> 01:39:46,750
we've seen tons of things out

1098
01:39:46,750 --> 01:39:51,000
there. So tons of whales, bluefin tuna.

1099
01:39:52,208 --> 01:39:52,625
That's the first time I

1100
01:39:52,625 --> 01:39:54,750
saw a pod of Atlantic bluefin

1101
01:39:54,750 --> 01:39:56,291
tuna just charging. I thought they looked

1102
01:39:56,291 --> 01:39:57,375
massive. They were probably

1103
01:39:57,375 --> 01:40:00,083
like five or 600 pounds and

1104
01:40:00,083 --> 01:40:01,125
the boat captain was like, yeah, those

1105
01:40:01,125 --> 01:40:05,500
are pretty big. They get bigger. Last

1106
01:40:05,500 --> 01:40:09,625
year we saw leatherback

1107
01:40:09,625 --> 01:40:10,958
turtles, which is the first time I had

1108
01:40:10,958 --> 01:40:12,833
seen them. It's pretty cool. You know,

1109
01:40:12,833 --> 01:40:13,541
being a canonist seeing

1110
01:40:13,541 --> 01:40:15,000
sea turtles are like, what the heck is

1111
01:40:15,000 --> 01:40:17,291
going on? But the Gulf stream

1112
01:40:17,291 --> 01:40:21,500
coming up, it's actually gets

1113
01:40:21,625 --> 01:40:24,291
it's surprisingly warm. So, you know, the

1114
01:40:24,291 --> 01:40:26,833
water temperature varies a

1115
01:40:26,833 --> 01:40:28,083
huge amount from season to

1116
01:40:28,083 --> 01:40:30,875
sea. So in the wintertime, you know, the

1117
01:40:30,875 --> 01:40:32,458
water can get down to

1118
01:40:32,458 --> 01:40:34,041
about minus one doesn't freeze

1119
01:40:34,500 --> 01:40:38,083
most of the time because it's salty. So

1120
01:40:38,083 --> 01:40:40,541
yeah, I think that so I

1121
01:40:40,541 --> 01:40:42,083
like to surf like the coldest

1122
01:40:42,125 --> 01:40:45,541
day that I surfed out there was minus 27.

1123
01:40:46,791 --> 01:40:49,416
The water was about minus one. But then,

1124
01:40:49,875 --> 01:40:50,625
you know, there's usually

1125
01:40:50,625 --> 01:40:52,541
once a week every year when you can surf

1126
01:40:52,541 --> 01:40:54,583
in your trunks. Yeah, you

1127
01:40:54,583 --> 01:40:55,541
know, the water will be like up

1128
01:40:55,541 --> 01:40:57,916
in the mid 70s. It doesn't last long, but

1129
01:40:57,916 --> 01:41:03,666
it's no, it's pretty cool. You gotta take

1130
01:41:03,666 --> 01:41:04,625
advantage when you can.

1131
01:41:05,250 --> 01:41:10,666
Exactly. Yeah. Have you encountered any

1132
01:41:10,666 --> 01:41:11,958
white sharks up there yourself?

1133
01:41:13,375 --> 01:41:17,791
So I haven't seen them. I haven't seen

1134
01:41:17,791 --> 01:41:19,541
them, but I've been surfing

1135
01:41:19,541 --> 01:41:20,500
a couple times. They've been

1136
01:41:20,500 --> 01:41:23,416
around. So one time a buddy and I were

1137
01:41:23,416 --> 01:41:25,583
surfing and it was really

1138
01:41:25,583 --> 01:41:26,625
foggy and we could get all the

1139
01:41:26,625 --> 01:41:28,041
splashing in the water. I made some joke

1140
01:41:28,041 --> 01:41:29,000
about sharks. And then as

1141
01:41:29,000 --> 01:41:30,125
soon as we were walking up

1142
01:41:30,125 --> 01:41:31,500
the beach, this lifeguard came running

1143
01:41:31,500 --> 01:41:32,791
down said, Oh, we just saw a

1144
01:41:32,791 --> 01:41:33,875
huge fan and we're closing the

1145
01:41:33,875 --> 01:41:37,708
beach. Oh, okay. So maybe it wasn't that

1146
01:41:37,708 --> 01:41:42,416
far off. And then just where we were

1147
01:41:42,416 --> 01:41:43,375
living, so my wife and

1148
01:41:43,375 --> 01:41:46,208
I are about an hour outside a little spot

1149
01:41:46,208 --> 01:41:48,333
called West Adore. And

1150
01:41:48,333 --> 01:41:49,916
you know, we lived out there

1151
01:41:49,916 --> 01:41:51,750
because it's like a nice little area. We

1152
01:41:51,750 --> 01:41:52,458
had a house right in the

1153
01:41:52,458 --> 01:41:54,083
water. One of the great things

1154
01:41:54,083 --> 01:41:55,625
I have like my own sort of private surf

1155
01:41:55,625 --> 01:41:56,541
break out front a little

1156
01:41:56,541 --> 01:41:59,625
point break. And then one day one

1157
01:41:59,625 --> 01:42:01,708
of the search tag sharks swam right

1158
01:42:01,708 --> 01:42:03,750
through there. And the next day I saw

1159
01:42:03,750 --> 01:42:05,000
half of a seal floating

1160
01:42:05,541 --> 01:42:07,333
or just washed up on the sand spit right

1161
01:42:07,333 --> 01:42:09,250
there. So there's definitely

1162
01:42:09,250 --> 01:42:11,458
around. We see lots of signs

1163
01:42:11,458 --> 01:42:15,166
of them, especially, you know, getting

1164
01:42:15,166 --> 01:42:16,958
into the late summer, fall

1165
01:42:16,958 --> 01:42:19,291
months there around. I haven't

1166
01:42:19,291 --> 01:42:22,291
seen, I mean, I've seen a lot more in

1167
01:42:22,291 --> 01:42:23,166
California and on the West

1168
01:42:23,166 --> 01:42:25,208
Coast than I have in those

1169
01:42:25,250 --> 01:42:27,208
discussions, but there's probably more

1170
01:42:27,208 --> 01:42:28,708
around there. But one thing

1171
01:42:28,708 --> 01:42:30,333
I did see last year, which

1172
01:42:30,458 --> 01:42:32,208
has been on my bucket list for a long

1173
01:42:32,208 --> 01:42:35,500
time was a basking shark. So

1174
01:42:35,500 --> 01:42:37,791
oftentimes, you know, people

1175
01:42:37,875 --> 01:42:40,416
people mistake those for white sharks

1176
01:42:40,416 --> 01:42:41,416
because everyone has white

1177
01:42:41,416 --> 01:42:42,666
sharks on the mind now. But

1178
01:42:43,625 --> 01:42:46,583
actually, I was teaching my class and one

1179
01:42:46,583 --> 01:42:47,750
of the students she worked

1180
01:42:47,750 --> 01:42:49,708
for the marine animal response

1181
01:42:49,791 --> 01:42:51,666
society. So they go whenever there's like

1182
01:42:51,666 --> 01:42:53,583
a marine mammal stranding, or

1183
01:42:53,583 --> 01:42:54,833
oftentimes if something washes

1184
01:42:54,875 --> 01:42:56,791
up, they collect it for DFO to do

1185
01:42:56,791 --> 01:43:00,083
necropsies. And when I was

1186
01:43:00,083 --> 01:43:02,000
first starting my class, there was

1187
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:04,083
this Instagram video going around of this

1188
01:43:04,083 --> 01:43:05,250
massive basking shark

1189
01:43:05,250 --> 01:43:07,375
swimming in a bay on the eastern

1190
01:43:07,416 --> 01:43:09,125
shore of Nova Scotia. And it was in about

1191
01:43:09,125 --> 01:43:12,458
60 feet of water. And as I was watching

1192
01:43:12,458 --> 01:43:13,291
the video, and I thought,

1193
01:43:13,416 --> 01:43:15,166
I'm pretty sure I know exactly where that

1194
01:43:15,166 --> 01:43:16,458
is. It's a spot called

1195
01:43:16,458 --> 01:43:17,750
Little Harbor. And then

1196
01:43:18,666 --> 01:43:20,833
the last day of my class, the student

1197
01:43:20,833 --> 01:43:21,875
came up to me and said, oh,

1198
01:43:21,875 --> 01:43:23,125
there's been a basking shark

1199
01:43:23,166 --> 01:43:28,291
stranding. And I know, yeah, so nobody

1200
01:43:28,291 --> 01:43:32,291
can go and get it. So it had apparently

1201
01:43:32,291 --> 01:43:33,166
washed up on a little

1202
01:43:33,166 --> 01:43:36,083
island. So I said, Okay, well, can you

1203
01:43:36,083 --> 01:43:36,958
send me the coordinates? And

1204
01:43:36,958 --> 01:43:38,583
she sent it to me as exactly

1205
01:43:38,583 --> 01:43:39,916
what I thought it was. It's just this

1206
01:43:39,916 --> 01:43:41,958
little tiny pile of rocks basically in

1207
01:43:41,958 --> 01:43:42,750
the middle of this bay.

1208
01:43:43,583 --> 01:43:46,291
So DFO wasn't going to get it because

1209
01:43:46,291 --> 01:43:47,750
they didn't have the time or

1210
01:43:47,750 --> 01:43:49,541
boat. Mars couldn't go and get

1211
01:43:49,541 --> 01:43:51,916
it. So I called DFO and said, Hey, it's a

1212
01:43:51,916 --> 01:43:56,708
cool if I go. They said, Sure. So I, I

1213
01:43:56,708 --> 01:43:57,916
didn't have my own boat,

1214
01:43:57,916 --> 01:43:59,791
but I took my surfboard,

1215
01:44:00,375 --> 01:44:02,750
loaded up with my dissecting gear. The

1216
01:44:02,750 --> 01:44:05,000
biggest knife I could find at the time,

1217
01:44:05,000 --> 01:44:06,166
because I was kind of packing up and

1218
01:44:06,166 --> 01:44:08,541
moving was a fillet knife that had I

1219
01:44:08,541 --> 01:44:11,500
think maybe a five inch blade on it. So I

1220
01:44:11,500 --> 01:44:13,541
paddled out there. And

1221
01:44:13,541 --> 01:44:15,083
so I'm all alone on this

1222
01:44:15,125 --> 01:44:17,708
island. It's a beautiful sunny day. It's

1223
01:44:17,708 --> 01:44:19,000
paddle thermistor for it. And there's an

1224
01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:20,166
eight meter basking shark

1225
01:44:20,166 --> 01:44:22,250
just washed up. And obviously,

1226
01:44:22,333 --> 01:44:25,791
unfortunately, the animal had passed. So

1227
01:44:25,791 --> 01:44:28,166
I inspected there were no signs of boat

1228
01:44:28,166 --> 01:44:30,541
strike or boat injury. So what I wanted

1229
01:44:30,541 --> 01:44:31,291
to do is collect some

1230
01:44:31,291 --> 01:44:35,500
samples. So I texted everyone I knew that

1231
01:44:35,500 --> 01:44:37,000
might want something before I went out

1232
01:44:37,000 --> 01:44:39,125
there, you know, this is kind of a rare

1233
01:44:39,125 --> 01:44:40,458
opportunity. So if I can get

1234
01:44:40,500 --> 01:44:42,416
samples for people. So obviously I had

1235
01:44:42,416 --> 01:44:45,541
requests for vertebrae, muscle, liver,

1236
01:44:46,000 --> 01:44:47,083
all these sorts of things. And then I

1237
01:44:47,083 --> 01:44:48,666
knew Carl was going to want the brain. So

1238
01:44:51,291 --> 01:44:52,916
there's a big board to bring all that

1239
01:44:52,916 --> 01:44:59,458
stuff. So the shark was mostly out of the

1240
01:44:59,458 --> 01:45:02,208
water. It was that the coddle fin was

1241
01:45:02,208 --> 01:45:04,416
still in the water. And of course, Nick

1242
01:45:04,416 --> 01:45:05,875
wants the coddle fin

1243
01:45:05,875 --> 01:45:07,291
aspect ratio. So of course,

1244
01:45:07,375 --> 01:45:09,291
I take this little five inch knife, I

1245
01:45:09,291 --> 01:45:11,208
have about three hours until the tide

1246
01:45:11,208 --> 01:45:14,541
fits back in, fills back in. So I set up

1247
01:45:14,541 --> 01:45:16,875
my phone. So it can videotape me and I

1248
01:45:16,875 --> 01:45:18,500
can yell out the measurements, I take it

1249
01:45:18,500 --> 01:45:20,250
all the more from metrics. Oh, no, I

1250
01:45:20,250 --> 01:45:25,583
start collecting samples. And so I had to

1251
01:45:25,583 --> 01:45:26,875
get the first I had to get the coddle fin

1252
01:45:26,875 --> 01:45:28,791
off to measure it. So it was underwater.

1253
01:45:28,791 --> 01:45:30,041
So I basically take this knife some

1254
01:45:30,041 --> 01:45:32,625
underwater, remove the whole coddle fin,

1255
01:45:32,625 --> 01:45:35,000
drag it up onto the beach, that thing

1256
01:45:35,000 --> 01:45:37,291
probably weighed 150 200 pounds.

1257
01:45:37,375 --> 01:45:38,416
Get it up there, get all the

1258
01:45:38,416 --> 01:45:41,166
measurements. Then I needed to get

1259
01:45:41,166 --> 01:45:43,833
vertebrae. So I'm going through the top

1260
01:45:43,833 --> 01:45:45,791
cutting through finally got through and I

1261
01:45:45,791 --> 01:45:48,500
got so I took six vertebrae in total, but

1262
01:45:48,500 --> 01:45:50,208
I could only carry three at a time. So

1263
01:45:50,208 --> 01:45:52,666
three vertebrae alone was probably about

1264
01:45:52,666 --> 01:45:55,791
80 pounds. So I get a section out, paddle

1265
01:45:55,791 --> 01:45:57,500
it back to shore, go back out, cut the

1266
01:45:57,500 --> 01:45:59,416
other ones. And mind you that you know

1267
01:45:59,416 --> 01:46:02,041
that these vertebrae, the radius was

1268
01:46:02,041 --> 01:46:04,291
probably about seven inches. So that's

1269
01:46:04,291 --> 01:46:05,750
just a single vertebrae is bigger than

1270
01:46:05,750 --> 01:46:06,708
the knife that I have.

1271
01:46:07,375 --> 01:46:10,000
I'm just hacking away. But the best part

1272
01:46:10,000 --> 01:46:13,416
was the time was getting close to filling

1273
01:46:13,416 --> 01:46:15,541
back in. And I had to get the brain. So I

1274
01:46:15,541 --> 01:46:17,708
quickly got through the chondro cranium,

1275
01:46:18,208 --> 01:46:21,458
exposed it. And then there was a lot of

1276
01:46:21,458 --> 01:46:23,416
three balls fluid in there. So I had to

1277
01:46:23,416 --> 01:46:25,375
cut a little trough in the cartilage to

1278
01:46:25,375 --> 01:46:27,375
let that the fluid drain out as I did

1279
01:46:27,375 --> 01:46:29,833
that the tide started to fill in. So I

1280
01:46:29,833 --> 01:46:32,208
had to quickly take my knife and dissect

1281
01:46:32,208 --> 01:46:33,708
out the brain. And I got the whole brain

1282
01:46:33,708 --> 01:46:35,583
out and probably about 10 minutes.

1283
01:46:36,000 --> 01:46:40,458
And then brought it back to shore. And

1284
01:46:40,458 --> 01:46:42,708
then because it was the 4th of July, I

1285
01:46:42,708 --> 01:46:44,541
packed the brain and some formal and took

1286
01:46:44,541 --> 01:46:46,333
it to the pub to show off everybody. So

1287
01:46:46,333 --> 01:46:51,208
I'm sure you sure that was a treat.

1288
01:46:51,208 --> 01:46:53,250
People also love that. And I just so

1289
01:46:53,250 --> 01:46:55,000
people don't know if you haven't worked a

1290
01:46:55,000 --> 01:46:57,291
bad day, their skin is really tough.

1291
01:46:57,916 --> 01:47:00,000
Yeah, there's a lot of yeah, Danicles.

1292
01:47:00,625 --> 01:47:02,041
You must have gotten where you probably

1293
01:47:02,041 --> 01:47:02,833
wearing a wetsuit. So

1294
01:47:02,833 --> 01:47:04,000
you probably get torn.

1295
01:47:04,000 --> 01:47:07,541
No, it was warm. So I just kind of just

1296
01:47:07,541 --> 01:47:08,708
wearing trunks and then you know, I was

1297
01:47:08,708 --> 01:47:11,375
wearing nitrile gloves at first, but it

1298
01:47:11,375 --> 01:47:13,750
would shred right through those. So then

1299
01:47:13,750 --> 01:47:15,416
I had to get a pair of like mechanics to

1300
01:47:15,416 --> 01:47:18,000
wear those but I was just my arms were

1301
01:47:18,000 --> 01:47:19,708
completely shredded and you know, a lot

1302
01:47:19,708 --> 01:47:21,750
of sharks if you if you go one way,

1303
01:47:21,750 --> 01:47:22,875
they're rough, you go the other way,

1304
01:47:22,875 --> 01:47:24,916
they're smooth. Basking sharks, it

1305
01:47:24,916 --> 01:47:27,125
doesn't matter. They're just rough every

1306
01:47:27,125 --> 01:47:30,083
way you go. But it was a really

1307
01:47:30,083 --> 01:47:32,000
spectacular animal to see. So

1308
01:47:34,000 --> 01:47:36,708
yeah, that's a great that's a great story

1309
01:47:36,708 --> 01:47:38,625
to share with your students or some some

1310
01:47:38,625 --> 01:47:42,000
day just going out there by yourself and

1311
01:47:42,000 --> 01:47:44,541
taking off the image. Good thing about

1312
01:47:44,541 --> 01:47:46,041
technology, you can set up your camera

1313
01:47:46,041 --> 01:47:48,333
just to record everything. Exactly. Yeah,

1314
01:47:48,333 --> 01:47:51,541
stuff off. I was definitely my have the

1315
01:47:51,541 --> 01:47:54,500
video. Do you still have? I do. Yeah.

1316
01:47:54,916 --> 01:47:57,541
Yeah. Yeah. So and you know, we're still

1317
01:47:57,541 --> 01:47:59,666
trying to figure out what happened to the

1318
01:47:59,666 --> 01:48:01,791
animal. So why it's trying to do so. And

1319
01:48:01,791 --> 01:48:03,000
one of the reasons I took the brain not only for the animal, but for the animal.

1320
01:48:03,000 --> 01:48:05,500
The brain not only to obviously study the

1321
01:48:05,500 --> 01:48:08,291
brain size organization was there's been

1322
01:48:08,291 --> 01:48:10,250
a sort of more recently, especially

1323
01:48:10,250 --> 01:48:12,333
animals and temperate water sharks kind

1324
01:48:12,333 --> 01:48:13,583
of washing up and there's been evidence

1325
01:48:13,583 --> 01:48:17,083
of them having a form of meningitis. Oh,

1326
01:48:17,083 --> 01:48:19,375
which could be caused some behavioral

1327
01:48:19,375 --> 01:48:20,791
impairment. And this is why these animals

1328
01:48:20,791 --> 01:48:25,000
might be dying or stranding. So I'm

1329
01:48:25,000 --> 01:48:27,458
sending it to a vet to sort of analyze

1330
01:48:27,458 --> 01:48:28,791
path logically to see if we can figure

1331
01:48:28,791 --> 01:48:30,041
out that that's what it was. Because as

1332
01:48:30,041 --> 01:48:31,041
far as I know, this

1333
01:48:31,041 --> 01:48:32,000
would be the first case of.

1334
01:48:32,000 --> 01:48:35,708
This meningitis in basking sharks. Right.

1335
01:48:36,041 --> 01:48:38,708
But other land reform species have had

1336
01:48:38,708 --> 01:48:40,125
this. So white sharks have stranded with

1337
01:48:40,125 --> 01:48:43,375
it and pressures and things like that. So

1338
01:48:43,375 --> 01:48:45,166
salmon sharks, we get them here. We get

1339
01:48:45,166 --> 01:48:46,500
salmon sharks, which you would know,

1340
01:48:46,500 --> 01:48:47,875
Chris, that we get them here. A little

1341
01:48:47,875 --> 01:48:49,833
sort of about three foot long salmon

1342
01:48:49,833 --> 01:48:51,916
sharks wash up. Yeah. Kind of from about

1343
01:48:51,916 --> 01:48:54,666
now from about July into the fall. And we

1344
01:48:54,666 --> 01:48:56,416
always get these calls about a little

1345
01:48:56,416 --> 01:48:57,958
white shark washed up from the white sharks. Yeah. And you know, we got to a point where I think we need to get some of the

1346
01:48:57,958 --> 01:49:01,208
white sharks. Yeah. And you know, we got

1347
01:49:01,208 --> 01:49:02,583
to a point where I think we must have had

1348
01:49:02,583 --> 01:49:04,625
like 30 or 40 of these things around. So

1349
01:49:04,625 --> 01:49:06,791
I've just got to be like, send us a

1350
01:49:06,791 --> 01:49:09,500
picture because you know, like, yeah, you

1351
01:49:09,500 --> 01:49:11,916
get so many of those small ones are just,

1352
01:49:11,916 --> 01:49:14,416
you know, you kind of know what once you

1353
01:49:14,416 --> 01:49:15,708
figured out what happened with them with

1354
01:49:15,708 --> 01:49:16,916
this meningitis thing.

1355
01:49:17,958 --> 01:49:21,041
You know, you don't have any more and you

1356
01:49:21,041 --> 01:49:22,458
don't need any more. So it's kind of like

1357
01:49:22,458 --> 01:49:24,666
we're done. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

1358
01:49:25,333 --> 01:49:28,291
I think that was one of my the first

1359
01:49:28,291 --> 01:49:30,791
calls I went on with the rapid response

1360
01:49:30,791 --> 01:49:32,666
in Long Beach with a fisherman was like,

1361
01:49:32,666 --> 01:49:34,666
I got a small white shark. It's kind of

1362
01:49:34,666 --> 01:49:37,250
funny looking. Yeah. But yeah, it's

1363
01:49:37,250 --> 01:49:38,416
probably gonna be a salmon shark. And

1364
01:49:38,416 --> 01:49:39,541
that's exactly what it was. But, you

1365
01:49:39,541 --> 01:49:40,875
know, he caught a salmon shark off of

1366
01:49:40,875 --> 01:49:42,958
Malibu. So yeah, yeah.

1367
01:49:42,958 --> 01:49:44,541
Yeah, that doesn't happen often. I'm

1368
01:49:44,541 --> 01:49:47,041
sure. Yeah, it's pretty rare. Yeah. Yeah.

1369
01:49:47,041 --> 01:49:49,416
Down. We get them down to Monterey.

1370
01:49:49,416 --> 01:49:52,083
They're not uncommon, but south of us, we

1371
01:49:52,083 --> 01:49:53,000
get especially down in Southern

1372
01:49:53,000 --> 01:49:55,125
California. They're not that common. They

1373
01:49:55,125 --> 01:49:57,291
just get caught in the current. The the

1374
01:49:57,291 --> 01:49:59,583
the Alaskan current. No, well, they get

1375
01:49:59,583 --> 01:50:01,041
they come down the loop. The little ones

1376
01:50:01,041 --> 01:50:04,250
come down the coast. Yeah. Yeah. So

1377
01:50:04,250 --> 01:50:08,083
there's been some cool work done by Aaron

1378
01:50:08,083 --> 01:50:09,791
Carlyle at University of Delaware. So

1379
01:50:09,791 --> 01:50:11,333
with a lot of these animals when they're

1380
01:50:11,333 --> 01:50:12,916
smaller, they don't have quite

1381
01:50:13,000 --> 01:50:15,583
the capacity for regional endothermy when

1382
01:50:15,583 --> 01:50:17,625
they're younger. Okay. And so they tend

1383
01:50:17,625 --> 01:50:19,541
to be in these small these nursery areas

1384
01:50:19,541 --> 01:50:21,416
which are further south and then as they

1385
01:50:21,416 --> 01:50:23,625
get bigger, obviously, their diets change

1386
01:50:23,625 --> 01:50:25,625
and then habitat change. Yeah. But a big

1387
01:50:25,625 --> 01:50:27,541
part of that is they're increasing

1388
01:50:27,541 --> 01:50:29,375
capacity for regional endothermy and they

1389
01:50:29,375 --> 01:50:33,500
can move into it. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1390
01:50:33,541 --> 01:50:35,125
Yeah. That's pretty. That's pretty easy.

1391
01:50:35,125 --> 01:50:37,458
You guys didn't didn't Chris do a little

1392
01:50:37,458 --> 01:50:38,916
bit of work in those down when you were

1393
01:50:38,916 --> 01:50:39,791
down at Chris Lowe's

1394
01:50:39,791 --> 01:50:41,333
lab. They do a little bit.

1395
01:50:42,375 --> 01:50:46,916
On the salmon shark. Yeah. Well, the only

1396
01:50:46,916 --> 01:50:48,291
thing I remember is that one that we

1397
01:50:48,291 --> 01:50:51,000
caught that one day. He may have Oh, you

1398
01:50:51,000 --> 01:50:52,916
know, he had some students that were a

1399
01:50:52,916 --> 01:50:54,416
little bit after my time that we're doing

1400
01:50:54,416 --> 01:50:58,625
some stuff up in Alaska. And so that

1401
01:50:58,625 --> 01:51:00,000
yeah, that might have been.

1402
01:51:01,041 --> 01:51:03,583
Well, Aaron, Aaron, Aaron Carlisle came

1403
01:51:03,583 --> 01:51:05,875
out of my lab, my lab here at Moss

1404
01:51:05,875 --> 01:51:07,625
Landing. He worked on the upper sharks

1405
01:51:07,625 --> 01:51:09,583
and he went to Stanford his PhD and then

1406
01:51:09,583 --> 01:51:10,958
that's when he really got into the salmon

1407
01:51:10,958 --> 01:51:13,416
sharks and so because Stan because

1408
01:51:13,416 --> 01:51:15,916
Hopkins is close by us we're you know,

1409
01:51:16,458 --> 01:51:18,208
every weekend the call is Aaron was a guy

1410
01:51:18,208 --> 01:51:19,958
keeping them we're saving them for Aaron

1411
01:51:19,958 --> 01:51:23,375
or he'd go pick them up and then once he

1412
01:51:23,375 --> 01:51:25,375
had about 30 or 40 is like okay, I think

1413
01:51:25,375 --> 01:51:26,750
we're kind of we're cool here. We got

1414
01:51:26,750 --> 01:51:27,625
enough of these things.

1415
01:51:27,666 --> 01:51:31,416
Yeah. So they look kind of cool when you

1416
01:51:31,416 --> 01:51:33,541
first see them but like I said, you kind

1417
01:51:33,541 --> 01:51:36,375
of get to where you lose the the enjoy or

1418
01:51:36,375 --> 01:51:39,000
the the the wow factor kind of fades

1419
01:51:39,000 --> 01:51:42,500
after a while. Yeah, I think that's

1420
01:51:42,500 --> 01:51:44,250
that's one of the hard things but you

1421
01:51:44,250 --> 01:51:46,291
know, you never want to lose like the joy

1422
01:51:46,291 --> 01:51:48,375
of seeing these things. Yeah. And you

1423
01:51:48,375 --> 01:51:49,666
don't want to the only two is a lot of

1424
01:51:49,666 --> 01:51:50,750
time they're found by people in the

1425
01:51:50,750 --> 01:51:52,250
public and you don't want to disappoint

1426
01:51:52,250 --> 01:51:54,333
them because you yeah, I find something

1427
01:51:54,333 --> 01:51:56,458
else later on. And you don't

1428
01:51:56,458 --> 01:51:57,625
want to like think like, well, I

1429
01:51:57,625 --> 01:51:59,041
think that's what they were. They weren't

1430
01:51:59,041 --> 01:52:01,208
interested in that three foot salmon

1431
01:52:01,208 --> 01:52:02,666
shark, but that eight foot white shark

1432
01:52:02,666 --> 01:52:03,916
that washed up in the beach. They might

1433
01:52:03,916 --> 01:52:06,208
be interested in that. Everyone's always

1434
01:52:06,208 --> 01:52:08,250
interested in a white shark. Yeah. Yeah.

1435
01:52:08,416 --> 01:52:10,541
So that's why you want to make sure you

1436
01:52:10,541 --> 01:52:13,333
keep everybody happy on that stuff. So we

1437
01:52:13,333 --> 01:52:14,791
always oblige him and go get him and

1438
01:52:14,791 --> 01:52:16,708
stuff when we can. Assuming they're

1439
01:52:16,708 --> 01:52:18,916
within a rate reasonable area to go pick

1440
01:52:18,916 --> 01:52:20,666
them up. It's all part of the citizen

1441
01:52:20,666 --> 01:52:22,083
science. It's all part of citizen science

1442
01:52:22,083 --> 01:52:24,583
that really. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's you

1443
01:52:24,583 --> 01:52:26,083
know, it's it's a big part of like

1444
01:52:26,083 --> 01:52:27,625
opportunistic sampling, which is

1445
01:52:27,666 --> 01:52:30,333
I think you know for as a comparative

1446
01:52:30,333 --> 01:52:31,791
biologist, that's a really important

1447
01:52:31,791 --> 01:52:34,500
thing. So like when I was doing my when I

1448
01:52:34,500 --> 01:52:35,916
was doing my PhD was it was really

1449
01:52:35,916 --> 01:52:37,375
similar to yours, Dave, where you were

1450
01:52:37,375 --> 01:52:39,458
just traveling around and and collecting

1451
01:52:39,458 --> 01:52:42,250
samples. So you know to get brains I

1452
01:52:42,250 --> 01:52:44,750
traveled all around Australia basically

1453
01:52:44,750 --> 01:52:46,125
working as a decky and all different

1454
01:52:46,125 --> 01:52:48,291
kinds of fishing boats and my pay was in

1455
01:52:48,291 --> 01:52:51,833
samples. So I worked on longliners purse.

1456
01:52:52,083 --> 01:52:54,000
I did go out with researchers as well.

1457
01:52:54,625 --> 01:52:57,166
Gill letters anything. So

1458
01:52:57,166 --> 01:52:57,625
you know, often times I do.

1459
01:52:57,625 --> 01:52:58,291
I do a lot of times these things would

1460
01:52:58,291 --> 01:52:59,666
come up as bycatch. They'd already be

1461
01:52:59,666 --> 01:53:02,208
dead. But for me, that was that was what

1462
01:53:02,208 --> 01:53:04,125
I was there for. So I I was able to get a

1463
01:53:04,125 --> 01:53:07,833
huge number of samples and a ton of

1464
01:53:07,833 --> 01:53:09,916
species from doing that and also just see

1465
01:53:09,916 --> 01:53:11,541
some really cool things and and travel

1466
01:53:11,541 --> 01:53:14,416
some really cool places. So yeah. Yeah.

1467
01:53:14,458 --> 01:53:16,416
Well, so if you had kind of going back

1468
01:53:16,416 --> 01:53:17,583
for the it's probably going out with some

1469
01:53:17,583 --> 01:53:19,208
of the commercial fishers, you probably

1470
01:53:19,208 --> 01:53:21,625
saw a lot of cool stuff because they're

1471
01:53:21,625 --> 01:53:24,250
out there all the time. Yeah. Yeah. The

1472
01:53:24,250 --> 01:53:26,166
occasional survey you might I mean the

1473
01:53:26,166 --> 01:53:27,000
surveys are cool but

1474
01:53:27,000 --> 01:53:27,625
you don't probably get

1475
01:53:27,625 --> 01:53:29,375
as much opportunity as you do on the

1476
01:53:29,375 --> 01:53:32,875
going out with the commercial guys which

1477
01:53:32,875 --> 01:53:34,666
are out there all the time. Yeah. I mean

1478
01:53:34,666 --> 01:53:36,125
the thing about fishermen is they know

1479
01:53:36,125 --> 01:53:37,875
where to fish. They know where they are.

1480
01:53:37,875 --> 01:53:40,458
So you're much more likely to get a lot

1481
01:53:40,458 --> 01:53:42,291
of stuff that way. So and I think you

1482
01:53:42,291 --> 01:53:43,958
know it's also like there's a huge amount

1483
01:53:43,958 --> 01:53:46,000
of knowledge there that oftentimes

1484
01:53:46,000 --> 01:53:49,041
doesn't get appreciated in academia. And

1485
01:53:49,041 --> 01:53:51,000
so it's you know it's refreshing to learn

1486
01:53:51,000 --> 01:53:53,875
from those people and also just you know

1487
01:53:53,875 --> 01:53:56,416
especially younger fishermen I find I

1488
01:53:56,416 --> 01:53:57,625
don't know if you found the same but they

1489
01:53:57,625 --> 01:54:00,500
tend to be much more like keen and

1490
01:54:00,500 --> 01:54:02,791
interested and even conservation

1491
01:54:02,791 --> 01:54:05,458
oriented. And so it's really kind of

1492
01:54:05,458 --> 01:54:07,083
refreshing to talk to fishermen like that

1493
01:54:07,083 --> 01:54:09,041
because oftentimes we you know

1494
01:54:09,041 --> 01:54:11,541
overfishing is the biggest thing driving

1495
01:54:11,541 --> 01:54:13,625
the extinction crisis is sharks and rays

1496
01:54:13,625 --> 01:54:16,166
but a lot of fishermen want to know more

1497
01:54:16,166 --> 01:54:17,541
and do better and they are really

1498
01:54:17,541 --> 01:54:19,333
interested in. So it's it's really cool

1499
01:54:19,333 --> 01:54:21,166
to go to go work with them. And then

1500
01:54:21,166 --> 01:54:23,291
obviously sometimes you get your your

1501
01:54:23,291 --> 01:54:24,458
crusty old guys that

1502
01:54:24,458 --> 01:54:26,833
aren't super happy to see you.

1503
01:54:27,958 --> 01:54:30,958
You see both sides. Yeah well yeah yeah

1504
01:54:30,958 --> 01:54:33,708
yeah definitely. So we're so you get your

1505
01:54:33,708 --> 01:54:35,791
bouncing all around Chris. So what's your

1506
01:54:35,791 --> 01:54:37,416
ultimate goal? Where are you looking to

1507
01:54:37,416 --> 01:54:42,625
to land career wise right now? Yeah. I

1508
01:54:42,625 --> 01:54:45,833
mean I mean kind of let's say it's like

1509
01:54:45,833 --> 01:54:48,583
two main things. So I know I've always

1510
01:54:48,583 --> 01:54:50,583
been keeping an eye open for like an

1511
01:54:50,583 --> 01:54:53,875
academic position. So one thing I really

1512
01:54:53,875 --> 01:54:55,750
enjoy is teaching and especially

1513
01:54:55,750 --> 01:54:57,500
mentoring students. So mentoring

1514
01:54:57,666 --> 01:55:00,791
is a really good place for me to be. I

1515
01:55:00,791 --> 01:55:04,041
think you know kind of a really ideal

1516
01:55:04,041 --> 01:55:05,708
place for me would be somewhere like the

1517
01:55:05,708 --> 01:55:08,125
Cal State system. So you know they're

1518
01:55:08,125 --> 01:55:11,083
they're generally universities that only

1519
01:55:11,083 --> 01:55:12,916
have like a master's level students but

1520
01:55:12,916 --> 01:55:14,666
you can do some really amazing research

1521
01:55:14,666 --> 01:55:17,208
at that level. You also get to do more

1522
01:55:17,208 --> 01:55:21,000
teaching and kind of mentoring. And you

1523
01:55:21,000 --> 01:55:23,375
know I'm a California native. That's kind

1524
01:55:23,375 --> 01:55:25,666
of what I love. So I'd love to come back

1525
01:55:25,666 --> 01:55:27,625
to California but you know even being a

1526
01:55:27,625 --> 01:55:29,583
really cool, I mean having a really cool, I mean being on the West Coast is really

1527
01:55:29,583 --> 01:55:33,375
nice. I was kind of getting really into

1528
01:55:33,375 --> 01:55:35,541
the idea of working for government. So

1529
01:55:35,541 --> 01:55:37,083
there's a lot of really cool research you

1530
01:55:37,083 --> 01:55:42,708
can do at NOAA or DFO in Canada for

1531
01:55:42,708 --> 01:55:44,625
obvious reasons. That's less of a

1532
01:55:44,625 --> 01:55:47,416
possibility these days. So maybe DFO.

1533
01:55:47,416 --> 01:55:51,416
Maybe DFO has a little bit. Well, well,

1534
01:55:51,750 --> 01:55:54,375
Chris Lowe recently retired. Are you

1535
01:55:54,375 --> 01:55:57,625
looking at position? I I'm

1536
01:55:57,625 --> 01:56:00,166
I would love to take over that role. I

1537
01:56:00,166 --> 01:56:01,958
think you know, there's a there's a

1538
01:56:01,958 --> 01:56:05,125
really kind of important legacy there and

1539
01:56:05,125 --> 01:56:07,708
history with the shark lab. Yeah. So I

1540
01:56:07,708 --> 01:56:09,791
think that would be a for me, that would

1541
01:56:09,791 --> 01:56:11,875
be like a really ideal fit just for the

1542
01:56:11,875 --> 01:56:14,666
type of research I'd like to do. Teaching

1543
01:56:14,666 --> 01:56:17,416
and mentoring. Also it's kind of my home.

1544
01:56:17,416 --> 01:56:20,000
Yeah, that's where I'm from. And, you

1545
01:56:20,000 --> 01:56:21,375
know, being somewhere where I could also

1546
01:56:21,375 --> 01:56:23,083
jump on the water and go snorkeling or

1547
01:56:23,083 --> 01:56:25,625
surfing every day is is definitely not a

1548
01:56:25,625 --> 01:56:27,625
bad idea. Yeah. No, you know, I'd say you know. I'm going to do a lot of work on this. Yeah, and it's a lot of fun. And I'm going to try to do a lot of work on this. And I think it's a lot of fun. I'm going to try to do a lot of research on this. So I think it's a lot of fun. I'm going to try to do a lot of work on this. So I think it's

1549
01:56:28,125 --> 01:56:29,083
Back to your Baywatch roots.

1550
01:56:29,666 --> 01:56:30,833
Exactly, exactly.

1551
01:56:31,083 --> 01:56:31,958
Go surfing where it's

1552
01:56:31,958 --> 01:56:33,500
not minus 30, it'd be nice.

1553
01:56:34,500 --> 01:56:35,958
(laughs) Little change, little different.

1554
01:56:36,208 --> 01:56:37,250
Yeah, yeah.

1555
01:56:37,500 --> 01:56:38,041
Yeah, so something like

1556
01:56:38,041 --> 01:56:39,416
that would be really ideal.

1557
01:56:41,083 --> 01:56:41,625
But, you know, I

1558
01:56:41,625 --> 01:56:42,958
think you also have to be

1559
01:56:43,208 --> 01:56:43,916
just really flexible,

1560
01:56:43,916 --> 01:56:44,500
and I think that's part

1561
01:56:44,500 --> 01:56:45,708
of learning new skills and

1562
01:56:45,708 --> 01:56:47,291
thinking about new things.

1563
01:56:48,416 --> 01:56:50,625
So one thing that some

1564
01:56:50,625 --> 01:56:52,333
friends and I have done recently,

1565
01:56:53,625 --> 01:56:54,541
this came out of an

1566
01:56:54,541 --> 01:56:55,875
AES meeting last year.

1567
01:56:56,000 --> 01:56:57,291
We formed this group called MISO.

1568
01:56:58,208 --> 01:56:59,916
So it's the MidCareer Elasmaprank

1569
01:56:59,916 --> 01:57:01,375
Scientist Organization.

1570
01:57:02,000 --> 01:57:03,125
So this was started by a

1571
01:57:03,125 --> 01:57:04,458
group of mid-career folks.

1572
01:57:05,041 --> 01:57:07,875
So myself, Cara Yopak,

1573
01:57:08,250 --> 01:57:09,875
Andy Nossle, Davi Keseth,

1574
01:57:10,500 --> 01:57:11,958
Kyle Newton, and Simon Dedmon.

1575
01:57:12,166 --> 01:57:14,375
And the idea was to build a

1576
01:57:14,375 --> 01:57:16,500
network for mid-career people

1577
01:57:16,666 --> 01:57:19,083
who are kind of in that postdoc, maybe

1578
01:57:19,083 --> 01:57:20,708
early professor stage,

1579
01:57:21,666 --> 01:57:23,625
building some community and some skills.

1580
01:57:23,625 --> 01:57:24,125
And so we're all

1581
01:57:24,125 --> 01:57:25,166
trying to support each other

1582
01:57:25,333 --> 01:57:27,166
in finding positions,

1583
01:57:28,416 --> 01:57:29,791
finding places to research,

1584
01:57:29,791 --> 01:57:31,125
or even like other endeavors that are

1585
01:57:31,125 --> 01:57:32,083
people are interested in.

1586
01:57:32,083 --> 01:57:32,666
People have different

1587
01:57:32,666 --> 01:57:36,041
skills from video production,

1588
01:57:36,583 --> 01:57:38,000
cinematography, event

1589
01:57:38,000 --> 01:57:39,500
planning, music, art,

1590
01:57:39,500 --> 01:57:40,416
those types of things.

1591
01:57:40,416 --> 01:57:41,625
So kind of incorporate those

1592
01:57:41,625 --> 01:57:42,916
things into the shark world.

1593
01:57:44,583 --> 01:57:46,333
And just kind of building a community

1594
01:57:46,333 --> 01:57:47,708
where we can kind of support each other

1595
01:57:47,916 --> 01:57:49,250
and get people to the next

1596
01:57:49,250 --> 01:57:51,875
career stage is a big thing.

1597
01:57:52,291 --> 01:57:52,500
So.

1598
01:57:55,625 --> 01:57:56,958
Nice. Oh, cool.

1599
01:57:58,458 --> 01:57:59,916
So, so where would you now,

1600
01:58:00,875 --> 01:58:01,875
even though you're out there

1601
01:58:01,875 --> 01:58:03,375
still looking for your sort

1602
01:58:03,375 --> 01:58:04,708
of job, your niche out there,

1603
01:58:04,708 --> 01:58:05,916
what kind of advice would

1604
01:58:05,916 --> 01:58:07,000
you have for a young person,

1605
01:58:07,916 --> 01:58:10,333
younger person looking to

1606
01:58:10,333 --> 01:58:11,250
get started in the field?

1607
01:58:13,000 --> 01:58:15,666
Yeah. I mean, I guess kind of like one

1608
01:58:15,666 --> 01:58:17,041
thing that I've done is,

1609
01:58:17,041 --> 01:58:19,458
is, you know, especially

1610
01:58:19,458 --> 01:58:20,666
earlier in your career,

1611
01:58:20,916 --> 01:58:22,916
you know, focus on building skills.

1612
01:58:23,416 --> 01:58:27,416
So, you know, I think oftentimes when we

1613
01:58:27,416 --> 01:58:29,000
go through academia,

1614
01:58:29,291 --> 01:58:30,000
people are trained

1615
01:58:30,000 --> 01:58:31,166
for an academic career.

1616
01:58:31,166 --> 01:58:32,416
So part of it is thinking about what

1617
01:58:32,416 --> 01:58:33,541
career you might want.

1618
01:58:33,541 --> 01:58:34,916
If you want to go into government, it's a

1619
01:58:34,916 --> 01:58:35,625
different skill set.

1620
01:58:35,791 --> 01:58:37,083
If you want to go in academia, it's a

1621
01:58:37,083 --> 01:58:37,791
different skill set.

1622
01:58:37,791 --> 01:58:38,375
But the more things

1623
01:58:38,375 --> 01:58:40,625
you learn, the better.

1624
01:58:40,625 --> 01:58:41,375
It's ultimately going to

1625
01:58:41,375 --> 01:58:43,000
make you a better scientist,

1626
01:58:43,291 --> 01:58:44,250
much more well-rounded.

1627
01:58:45,666 --> 01:58:47,833
And also, you know, we really kind of

1628
01:58:47,833 --> 01:58:51,000
focus on our taxonomic group.

1629
01:58:51,041 --> 01:58:52,458
You know, we all work on sharks and rays

1630
01:58:52,458 --> 01:58:53,458
because that's what we love.

1631
01:58:53,458 --> 01:58:55,291
But don't be like close

1632
01:58:55,291 --> 01:58:56,166
to other opportunities.

1633
01:58:56,666 --> 01:58:59,750
So, you know, my second most highly cited

1634
01:58:59,750 --> 01:59:02,125
paper is on heavy metal

1635
01:59:02,416 --> 01:59:04,833
in children's tooth enamel that has to do

1636
01:59:04,833 --> 01:59:08,916
with autism and other spectrum disorders.

1637
01:59:09,250 --> 01:59:10,708
So kind of be open to

1638
01:59:10,708 --> 01:59:11,208
these opportunities.

1639
01:59:11,458 --> 01:59:13,541
But, you know, I got on that paper

1640
01:59:13,541 --> 01:59:14,916
because of a skill set.

1641
01:59:14,916 --> 01:59:17,250
I was learning with laser ablation, ICPMS

1642
01:59:17,250 --> 01:59:18,416
and those types of things.

1643
01:59:18,458 --> 01:59:21,833
And so I think that's a big one.

1644
01:59:23,125 --> 01:59:25,583
Also, you know, if you really want to

1645
01:59:25,583 --> 01:59:27,750
pursue like a scientific career, like

1646
01:59:27,750 --> 01:59:31,958
just a perseverance is a really important

1647
01:59:31,958 --> 01:59:35,000
component and sticking with things.

1648
01:59:35,208 --> 01:59:36,958
So like one of the things I'm probably

1649
01:59:36,958 --> 01:59:40,916
most proud of is one of my PhD papers I

1650
01:59:40,916 --> 01:59:41,875
had published in the

1651
01:59:41,875 --> 01:59:43,083
American Nationalists.

1652
01:59:43,666 --> 01:59:45,125
And so this is a journal

1653
01:59:45,125 --> 01:59:46,208
that I really highly respect.

1654
01:59:47,458 --> 01:59:50,791
And this was a paper looking at life

1655
01:59:50,791 --> 01:59:52,208
history, ecology and brain

1656
01:59:52,208 --> 01:59:53,458
organization of sharks and rays.

1657
01:59:54,208 --> 01:59:56,958
And to get this paper published, I think

1658
01:59:56,958 --> 01:59:59,375
I submitted it 15 times

1659
01:59:59,375 --> 02:00:02,291
to five different journals.

1660
02:00:02,958 --> 02:00:04,250
You know, sometimes it went through three

1661
02:00:04,250 --> 02:00:05,875
rounds of review and was rejected.

1662
02:00:06,166 --> 02:00:07,500
Sometimes it was desk rejected.

1663
02:00:08,583 --> 02:00:09,333
And it was, you know, it was a

1664
02:00:09,333 --> 02:00:11,000
combination of things of getting stuck in

1665
02:00:11,000 --> 02:00:12,500
this kind of like early niche

1666
02:00:12,500 --> 02:00:13,708
neurobiologic

1667
02:00:13,708 --> 02:00:15,458
neurodevelopment argument kind of thing.

1668
02:00:16,458 --> 02:00:18,291
But the paper that was published and the

1669
02:00:18,291 --> 02:00:19,916
paper that I first wrote and submitted

1670
02:00:19,916 --> 02:00:22,083
the first time are almost the same paper.

1671
02:00:23,458 --> 02:00:26,125
It was just kind of pushing back against

1672
02:00:26,125 --> 02:00:29,500
reviewers and like not losing hope

1673
02:00:29,500 --> 02:00:29,958
because there's

1674
02:00:29,958 --> 02:00:31,083
something I really believed in.

1675
02:00:31,083 --> 02:00:33,375
And I also had the encouragement of Nick

1676
02:00:33,375 --> 02:00:34,875
and Cara as I was doing it.

1677
02:00:34,875 --> 02:00:37,500
So I really pushed through. So, you know,

1678
02:00:37,500 --> 02:00:39,416
don't let little setbacks discourage you.

1679
02:00:39,458 --> 02:00:42,916
You know, if if if it was easy, we'd all

1680
02:00:42,916 --> 02:00:46,000
be shark biologists and we wouldn't be

1681
02:00:46,000 --> 02:00:47,000
worried about job security.

1682
02:00:47,250 --> 02:00:49,083
So, you know, if you're really passionate

1683
02:00:49,083 --> 02:00:51,166
about it, you're going to have to be

1684
02:00:51,166 --> 02:00:52,875
willing to put your heart

1685
02:00:52,875 --> 02:00:53,958
and soul into it sometimes.

1686
02:00:55,500 --> 02:00:57,000
But, you know, then there's there's lots

1687
02:00:57,000 --> 02:00:58,000
of perks to the job.

1688
02:00:58,500 --> 02:01:00,500
So we get to meet great people. We get to

1689
02:01:00,500 --> 02:01:01,500
travel to cool places.

1690
02:01:02,375 --> 02:01:05,083
I've gotten to travel and fish for sharks

1691
02:01:05,083 --> 02:01:06,416
and then also surf all over the world.

1692
02:01:06,458 --> 02:01:10,083
So, yeah, there's there's great things

1693
02:01:10,083 --> 02:01:11,208
that that come from it.

1694
02:01:13,250 --> 02:01:14,208
Yeah, that's fantastic.

1695
02:01:14,666 --> 02:01:16,750
That's great. That's awesome.

1696
02:01:16,750 --> 02:01:17,791
Chris. Well, when you get a job, we'll

1697
02:01:17,791 --> 02:01:20,458
have to have you come back and tell us

1698
02:01:20,458 --> 02:01:22,916
tell us about how we'll have a we'll have

1699
02:01:22,916 --> 02:01:24,125
a celebration with some

1700
02:01:24,125 --> 02:01:25,291
adult beverages on air.

1701
02:01:26,125 --> 02:01:28,416
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

1702
02:01:29,833 --> 02:01:30,833
Definitely keep us posted.

1703
02:01:31,041 --> 02:01:32,750
And thank you so much for coming on and

1704
02:01:32,750 --> 02:01:34,416
sharing your story. We really yeah.

1705
02:01:34,458 --> 02:01:37,125
Thanks so much for having me, guys. It's

1706
02:01:37,125 --> 02:01:38,041
it's really flattering, you know,

1707
02:01:38,250 --> 02:01:39,541
considering, you know, some of the people

1708
02:01:39,541 --> 02:01:41,708
that you've had on the podcast or, you

1709
02:01:41,708 --> 02:01:43,833
know, you know, really highly respected

1710
02:01:43,833 --> 02:01:45,333
kind of luminaries in the field.

1711
02:01:46,458 --> 02:01:47,583
I think it's really important for, you

1712
02:01:47,583 --> 02:01:48,916
know, for the younger generation to hear

1713
02:01:48,916 --> 02:01:51,083
from those people. So to be included

1714
02:01:51,083 --> 02:01:53,291
amongst those that group of people is a

1715
02:01:53,291 --> 02:01:53,833
really nice feeling.

1716
02:01:54,041 --> 02:01:54,416
Yeah. Thank you very much.

1717
02:01:55,458 --> 02:01:59,583
Yeah, well, it's definitely deserved and

1718
02:01:59,583 --> 02:02:01,625
and, you know, everybody we've have done

1719
02:02:01,625 --> 02:02:04,000
have on is like serves a different

1720
02:02:04,000 --> 02:02:06,416
purpose and they all like, you know, the

1721
02:02:06,416 --> 02:02:08,916
goal of this podcast is to inform

1722
02:02:08,916 --> 02:02:10,458
everybody of what's going on in the

1723
02:02:10,458 --> 02:02:11,875
industry, what's going on in the field

1724
02:02:11,875 --> 02:02:14,458
and how people are succeeding in some of

1725
02:02:14,458 --> 02:02:15,833
the challenges that they're that they're

1726
02:02:15,833 --> 02:02:18,333
facing and and being a part of it and

1727
02:02:18,333 --> 02:02:18,416
just showing that passion, sharing
that passion with everybody.

1728
02:02:18,458 --> 02:02:22,833
And that's that's the that's the fun part

1729
02:02:22,833 --> 02:02:25,250
to be able to to witness here each and

1730
02:02:25,250 --> 02:02:27,666
every episode. So it's been great to gain

1731
02:02:27,666 --> 02:02:29,666
to know you and your career and all the

1732
02:02:29,666 --> 02:02:31,708
fun things you've been able to do,

1733
02:02:31,708 --> 02:02:34,875
including dissecting a basking shark on a

1734
02:02:34,875 --> 02:02:37,041
on a surfboard covered in shark guts.

1735
02:02:37,041 --> 02:02:39,416
Yeah, you can't go wrong, right? You can't go wrong. Exactly.

1736
02:02:48,333 --> 02:02:51,291
Well, I don't see it before. I'll

1737
02:02:51,291 --> 02:02:52,833
definitely plan to see in Sri Lanka next

1738
02:02:52,833 --> 02:02:55,083
year. So yeah, definitely. Yeah,

1739
02:02:55,125 --> 02:02:57,125
definitely. So awesome. Thank you very

1740
02:02:57,125 --> 02:02:57,416
much, Chris. We really do appreciate you coming on the podcast. Thanks so much, guys. Thank you, Chris,
for joining us on today's episode of Excuse me. Whoa, small the wrong way. Let's do that again.

1741
02:02:57,458 --> 02:03:00,333
Thank you, Chris, for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. It was great to hear those stories. It was great to hear your path. Dave, what are your thoughts on this incredible human? I think Chris is like the definition of perseverance. And that's in this field. You have to have a lot of people who are in the field of

1742
02:03:27,458 --> 02:03:27,666
Correcting theleys. Here's the question. Are you in the field of perseverance? So

1743
02:03:27,666 --> 02:03:28,333
when you think you have that a fear, if

1744
02:03:28,333 --> 02:03:29,500
you think you're going to try to go

1745
02:03:29,500 --> 02:03:31,333
anywhere in this field, just because it's

1746
02:03:31,333 --> 02:03:34,125
just it's not easy. There's never been

1747
02:03:34,125 --> 02:03:36,041
people talk today about how well there's

1748
02:03:36,041 --> 02:03:38,833
not like a lot of jobs around. Well, I

1749
02:03:38,833 --> 02:03:40,708
can tell you going back 40 years, there

1750
02:03:40,708 --> 02:03:42,083
wasn't a lot of jobs around when I

1751
02:03:42,083 --> 02:03:43,916
started. And the people before me would

1752
02:03:43,916 --> 02:03:45,250
tell you there wasn't a lot of jobs. So

1753
02:03:45,250 --> 02:03:47,041
there were never, it's never been to feel

1754
02:03:47,041 --> 02:03:49,583
that there's a lot of jobs available in.

1755
02:03:49,833 --> 02:03:51,375
And most people eventually go in a

1756
02:03:51,375 --> 02:03:52,250
different direction. But to stay in it, you've got to have perseverance and a lot of drive. And Chris certainly has that.

1757
02:03:57,458 --> 02:03:59,666
just by evidence of all the different

1758
02:03:59,666 --> 02:04:01,583
postdoc he's done in different countries,

1759
02:04:02,125 --> 02:04:02,916
different continents.

1760
02:04:04,000 --> 02:04:04,833
But you know, that's what it's going to

1761
02:04:04,833 --> 02:04:06,791
take if he wants to stick with it and

1762
02:04:06,791 --> 02:04:07,791
hopefully get a job,

1763
02:04:07,791 --> 02:04:09,958
whether it's in academia or working with

1764
02:04:09,958 --> 02:04:13,000
a government agency and stuff.

1765
02:04:13,000 --> 02:04:14,083
It's just that type of stuff.

1766
02:04:14,375 --> 02:04:16,000
Even if you got into academia, there's no

1767
02:04:16,000 --> 02:04:17,208
guarantee he's going to really be able to

1768
02:04:17,208 --> 02:04:18,416
do much in the way of sharks either.

1769
02:04:19,166 --> 02:04:21,416
So it's just, it's really a field of

1770
02:04:21,416 --> 02:04:23,708
passion. Again, Chris kind of epitomizes

1771
02:04:23,708 --> 02:04:25,291
that and his story certainly,

1772
02:04:25,500 --> 02:04:27,000
certainly shares that, you know, I mean,

1773
02:04:27,000 --> 02:04:29,541
he's certainly a well, well regarded

1774
02:04:29,541 --> 02:04:31,833
young, young researcher, up and coming

1775
02:04:31,833 --> 02:04:32,708
person in the field.

1776
02:04:33,458 --> 02:04:34,666
Well, and you mentioned drive, he

1777
02:04:34,666 --> 02:04:37,208
literally drove across Canada to do a

1778
02:04:37,208 --> 02:04:38,791
course at Dalhousie

1779
02:04:38,791 --> 02:04:41,291
University that he does every summer.

1780
02:04:41,291 --> 02:04:42,958
He's done for the past few summers.

1781
02:04:42,958 --> 02:04:44,833
That's a long drive, folks. If you

1782
02:04:44,833 --> 02:04:45,875
haven't, if you don't know

1783
02:04:45,875 --> 02:04:47,166
Canada or you don't know how long

1784
02:04:47,208 --> 02:04:50,041
they're going from Victoria, one side of

1785
02:04:50,041 --> 02:04:51,833
the country to the next is

1786
02:04:51,833 --> 02:04:53,500
not something you do in a day.

1787
02:04:54,083 --> 02:04:56,041
And there's a lot of adventures that come

1788
02:04:56,041 --> 02:04:57,083
across that. He was telling

1789
02:04:57,083 --> 02:04:58,750
us of some of those adventures.

1790
02:04:58,750 --> 02:04:59,958
I don't know if he said that on air. I'm

1791
02:04:59,958 --> 02:05:01,375
trying to remember if he said it on air.

1792
02:05:01,375 --> 02:05:02,541
But let's just say he had

1793
02:05:02,541 --> 02:05:03,708
they had some car trouble.

1794
02:05:03,708 --> 02:05:05,791
Yeah, through when they got actually not

1795
02:05:05,791 --> 02:05:07,541
really halfway through, just not even a

1796
02:05:07,541 --> 02:05:08,500
quarter of the way through.

1797
02:05:08,500 --> 02:05:09,666
Canada's a big country and it takes a

1798
02:05:09,666 --> 02:05:11,500
while to get over there. And hopefully he

1799
02:05:11,500 --> 02:05:12,458
makes it. And he's on

1800
02:05:12,458 --> 02:05:13,750
his journey there by time.

1801
02:05:13,791 --> 02:05:15,916
This episode, he's there by the time this

1802
02:05:15,916 --> 02:05:18,125
episode publishes. But it's something

1803
02:05:18,125 --> 02:05:20,500
that you that you go through.

1804
02:05:20,750 --> 02:05:23,000
And and the great thing is, is you make

1805
02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:25,041
the most of it in these journeys. You

1806
02:05:25,041 --> 02:05:26,625
know, driving across Canada, you stop

1807
02:05:26,625 --> 02:05:28,625
off, you get to see a wonderful country.

1808
02:05:28,791 --> 02:05:29,875
Obviously, I'm biased because I'm from

1809
02:05:29,875 --> 02:05:32,125
Canada. But regardless of what you do is

1810
02:05:32,125 --> 02:05:32,958
you have to enjoy the

1811
02:05:32,958 --> 02:05:33,875
moments that you're in.

1812
02:05:33,875 --> 02:05:37,000
You have to be able to live in that

1813
02:05:37,000 --> 02:05:39,125
moment, take advantage of those moments

1814
02:05:39,125 --> 02:05:40,541
and do what you can.

1815
02:05:41,166 --> 02:05:42,875
One of those stories is the basking shark

1816
02:05:42,875 --> 02:05:45,708
story. You know, DFO was not able to

1817
02:05:45,708 --> 02:05:46,250
department of fisheries

1818
02:05:46,250 --> 02:05:47,666
notions in Nova Scotia.

1819
02:05:48,083 --> 02:05:50,000
And that story was not able to pick up

1820
02:05:50,000 --> 02:05:52,041
the the the basking shark, which will

1821
02:05:52,041 --> 02:05:52,833
probably made it a lot

1822
02:05:52,833 --> 02:05:54,833
easier for him to take samples.

1823
02:05:54,958 --> 02:05:57,375
So he took takes a surfboard paddles out

1824
02:05:57,375 --> 02:05:59,083
there with the tide coming in and he's

1825
02:05:59,083 --> 02:06:00,875
got what three hours to do all the work.

1826
02:06:01,291 --> 02:06:03,333
He said he shredded up his forearms

1827
02:06:03,333 --> 02:06:04,916
because, you know, basking

1828
02:06:04,916 --> 02:06:07,041
sharks skin is not the smoothest.

1829
02:06:07,958 --> 02:06:09,666
And, you know, spending a lot of time

1830
02:06:09,666 --> 02:06:11,333
covered in shark guts.

1831
02:06:11,791 --> 02:06:13,500
And let's be honest, in the water with a

1832
02:06:13,500 --> 02:06:15,041
bunch of shark guts there that could

1833
02:06:15,041 --> 02:06:17,416
attract a few critters, you know, and put

1834
02:06:17,416 --> 02:06:19,083
them in some danger.

1835
02:06:19,333 --> 02:06:21,625
And luckily, he was OK. But he did it for

1836
02:06:21,625 --> 02:06:23,458
the science because he's interested in

1837
02:06:23,458 --> 02:06:24,041
the science. He's

1838
02:06:24,041 --> 02:06:25,458
interested in sharing the data.

1839
02:06:25,958 --> 02:06:27,875
He mentioned Kerry Yaupack that wanted

1840
02:06:27,875 --> 02:06:31,083
the shark brains and other things, you

1841
02:06:31,083 --> 02:06:33,333
know, and taking the coddle fin for I

1842
02:06:33,333 --> 02:06:34,416
think was was it Dolby

1843
02:06:34,416 --> 02:06:35,333
Nick Dolby or somebody.

1844
02:06:36,791 --> 02:06:38,458
These things are not easy to do. And he

1845
02:06:38,458 --> 02:06:40,666
did it because he was interested in the

1846
02:06:40,666 --> 02:06:41,333
science. He wants to

1847
02:06:41,333 --> 02:06:42,250
see the science persevere.

1848
02:06:42,875 --> 02:06:45,000
And so he thought of all the people in

1849
02:06:45,000 --> 02:06:46,291
his network, all the people, all the

1850
02:06:46,291 --> 02:06:47,583
other scientists that he works with.

1851
02:06:47,916 --> 02:06:49,750
And he's like, oh, some care would would

1852
02:06:49,750 --> 02:06:51,458
really love these brains or somebody

1853
02:06:51,458 --> 02:06:53,375
would really love the coddle fins and

1854
02:06:53,375 --> 02:06:54,416
somebody would really like this.

1855
02:06:54,416 --> 02:06:56,041
And I would really like this. And they

1856
02:06:56,041 --> 02:06:58,375
make the most of an animal that, you

1857
02:06:58,375 --> 02:07:00,291
know, has passed away and and

1858
02:07:00,291 --> 02:07:01,666
they they use it for science.

1859
02:07:01,750 --> 02:07:03,708
And I think that's that's really the

1860
02:07:03,708 --> 02:07:05,666
definition of perseverance when we when

1861
02:07:05,666 --> 02:07:07,125
we talk about Chris here.

1862
02:07:07,750 --> 02:07:10,000
Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. He said it's

1863
02:07:10,000 --> 02:07:11,625
not easy working on the shark like that.

1864
02:07:12,125 --> 02:07:13,583
And it's not easy, you know, moving

1865
02:07:13,583 --> 02:07:15,291
around all the different locations he's

1866
02:07:15,291 --> 02:07:16,291
had to go to,

1867
02:07:17,041 --> 02:07:18,000
especially when he has a wife.

1868
02:07:18,250 --> 02:07:21,000
It's got to be very understanding to be

1869
02:07:21,000 --> 02:07:26,208
able to be able to do that. Right. Put up

1870
02:07:26,208 --> 02:07:27,375
put up with that, I guess,

1871
02:07:27,375 --> 02:07:28,750
be another way to explain it.

1872
02:07:28,791 --> 02:07:33,291
And so, but yeah, he's it's a yeah, I've

1873
02:07:33,291 --> 02:07:34,541
known Chris for quite a while, too,

1874
02:07:34,541 --> 02:07:36,291
because Chris is originally as we talked

1875
02:07:36,291 --> 02:07:37,750
about was from Southern California.

1876
02:07:38,708 --> 02:07:41,041
And like I always joke with him, it's

1877
02:07:41,041 --> 02:07:43,125
sort of like, you know, you know, Bay Bay

1878
02:07:43,125 --> 02:07:44,875
Watch Bay Watch of the shark world.

1879
02:07:45,541 --> 02:07:47,500
And I came out of Chris Lowe's lab for

1880
02:07:47,500 --> 02:07:48,750
his for his graduate degree.

1881
02:07:48,791 --> 02:07:50,500
And we've had a number of Chris's

1882
02:07:50,500 --> 02:07:52,875
students on here as well now as as well.

1883
02:07:52,875 --> 02:07:54,791
So it was a very testament to Chris's

1884
02:07:54,791 --> 02:07:57,708
program that he has at California State

1885
02:07:57,708 --> 02:07:59,041
Long Beach, which I

1886
02:07:59,041 --> 02:07:59,958
guess he's retired now.

1887
02:08:00,208 --> 02:08:03,791
And Chris is looking and Chris is looking

1888
02:08:03,791 --> 02:08:05,583
for a job which would make a nice fit

1889
02:08:05,583 --> 02:08:08,083
because Don Nelson, who is the original

1890
02:08:08,083 --> 02:08:09,416
person, set up the lab.

1891
02:08:09,916 --> 02:08:11,625
Chris Lowe is his graduate student that

1892
02:08:11,625 --> 02:08:13,541
went on to do a PhD. And when Don passed

1893
02:08:13,541 --> 02:08:16,000
away, Chris Lowe took the job. And now

1894
02:08:16,000 --> 02:08:17,250
with Chris, thankfully,

1895
02:08:17,250 --> 02:08:17,750
Chris is still with us.

1896
02:08:17,791 --> 02:08:18,541
Yes.

1897
02:08:19,041 --> 02:08:21,541
Hiring. Maybe Chris smaller, somewhat one

1898
02:08:21,541 --> 02:08:23,041
of his students like that could could get

1899
02:08:23,041 --> 02:08:24,541
the job to kind of continue the legacy

1900
02:08:24,541 --> 02:08:26,625
there. That would be pretty cool.

1901
02:08:27,125 --> 02:08:28,458
Absolutely. And look, we're not trying to

1902
02:08:28,458 --> 02:08:30,291
influence Chris Lowe in any kind of way.

1903
02:08:30,291 --> 02:08:31,958
We're just saying that this is not a good

1904
02:08:31,958 --> 02:08:33,625
thing that might happen. I've just fallen

1905
02:08:33,625 --> 02:08:35,625
in the lap. And let's let's just leave it

1906
02:08:35,625 --> 02:08:36,833
at that because we don't know.

1907
02:08:37,750 --> 02:08:39,375
You know, we just think it's a good idea.

1908
02:08:39,375 --> 02:08:40,750
That's all Chris is always. Yeah, yeah. I

1909
02:08:40,750 --> 02:08:42,833
mean, Chris, we won't mention the fact

1910
02:08:42,833 --> 02:08:44,416
Chris is Chris Lowe's been on our program

1911
02:08:44,416 --> 02:08:45,750
three times now in the podcast.

1912
02:08:45,791 --> 02:08:48,625
Doesn't make any difference. Yes, it's

1913
02:08:48,625 --> 02:08:51,958
part of the thing. So yeah, but no, it's

1914
02:08:51,958 --> 02:08:54,125
great to have Chris on always. We can't

1915
02:08:54,125 --> 02:08:56,458
wait to hear more of some of his things

1916
02:08:56,458 --> 02:08:57,625
that he's been up to over

1917
02:08:57,625 --> 02:08:58,875
the past over the next year.

1918
02:08:59,250 --> 02:09:02,333
We'll have him on definitely upcoming and

1919
02:09:02,333 --> 02:09:04,500
maybe next year or so to hear more about

1920
02:09:04,500 --> 02:09:05,958
how this course went and of course, what

1921
02:09:05,958 --> 02:09:07,583
he's been up to. So it's going to be a

1922
02:09:07,583 --> 02:09:08,750
lot of fun to look forward to that.

1923
02:09:09,333 --> 02:09:11,666
So we'll put up any type of contact

1924
02:09:11,666 --> 02:09:13,708
information for him in the show notes.

1925
02:09:13,708 --> 02:09:14,916
And of course, Dave, people want to get

1926
02:09:14,916 --> 02:09:16,083
ahold of you. How would you do so?

1927
02:09:16,750 --> 02:09:18,166
You know, through my social medias,

1928
02:09:18,458 --> 02:09:20,958
Instagram, the last shark guy, YouTube

1929
02:09:20,958 --> 02:09:23,625
channel, please go to a law shark guy and

1930
02:09:23,625 --> 02:09:25,458
check out the series Searching for Lost

1931
02:09:25,458 --> 02:09:26,291
Sharks, extinct or

1932
02:09:26,291 --> 02:09:27,666
alive. And please subscribe.

1933
02:09:28,208 --> 02:09:30,958
And you can also hit me up and Andrew

1934
02:09:30,958 --> 02:09:33,458
through our Beyond Jaws podcast, our

1935
02:09:33,458 --> 02:09:35,583
YouTube channel and on Instagram.

1936
02:09:36,000 --> 02:09:37,750
Perfect. Yeah, absolutely.

1937
02:09:37,791 --> 02:09:39,750
It's going to be a lot of fun. And I want

1938
02:09:39,750 --> 02:09:41,750
to thank I want to thank Chris for

1939
02:09:41,750 --> 02:09:43,000
joining us, of course. And Dave, it's

1940
02:09:43,000 --> 02:09:44,541
always a pleasure to continue to do these

1941
02:09:44,541 --> 02:09:45,958
podcasts with you and to our audience.

1942
02:09:46,166 --> 02:09:48,291
Thank you so much for supporting us each

1943
02:09:48,291 --> 02:09:49,916
and every episode when you watch.

1944
02:09:49,916 --> 02:09:51,291
We really appreciate it. We'd always love

1945
02:09:51,291 --> 02:09:53,125
to hear from you and your feedback. But

1946
02:09:53,125 --> 02:09:54,708
until next time, this has been another

1947
02:09:54,708 --> 02:09:56,333
wonderful episode of the Beyond Jaws

1948
02:09:56,333 --> 02:09:58,125
podcast. Thank you from Dave and I would

1949
02:09:58,125 --> 02:09:58,916
really appreciate it.

1950
02:09:58,916 --> 02:10:00,041
Have a great day. We'll talk to you next

1951
02:10:00,041 --> 02:10:01,458
time and happy conservation.