Ghost Sharks with Dominique Didier: Unveiling the Hidden World of Chimaeras

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We have a great episode for you today.

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Dr. Dominique D.J. is here

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today to talk about her new book,

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just like an intro to her new book, "Go

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Sharks of the World."

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We're gonna talk about a

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little bit about her career.

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We're gonna talk about

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her getting into this book

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and doing it with our

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very own Dr. David Ebert.

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We're gonna talk about

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all that on today's episode

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of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome back

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to another exciting episode

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of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I'm your cohost Andrew Lewin here with my

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cohost Dr. David Ebert.

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Dave, you're back from your trip, which

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we're gonna have a whole episode on that.

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But we're here today to talk to Dominique

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DJ about a book that

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you worked on with her

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as well as some others.

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You must be super excited

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to talk to Dominique today.

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Oh yeah, now I'm really glad.

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She was on our fifth episode.

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Yeah, really looking

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forward to having her.

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I don't know why it's been so long since

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we've had her on the show.

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She's a great guest.

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So many other people,

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so many other people.

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Yeah, there's so many people out there.

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Yeah.

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But anyway, but I'm really excited.

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I mean, I couldn't even think about doing

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a book like this

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without somebody like her

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because she really is

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the queen of go sharks.

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I mean, she's really, if you want to, I

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mean, it's just,

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she's one of those people.

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Like she is literally like a legend in

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the field and it's just

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having the opportunity

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to work with her and her and I have

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collaborated going

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back 20 years or more now.

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Yeah.

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Mentor of co-mentored students and she's

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just a phenomenal person.

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She's just a powerhouse to work with.

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And so I'm really, really excited to have

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her on and to kind of

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talk about the book,

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catch up with where else she's been up to

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and just talk about it.

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We got into a little bit.

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She's got a little side hustle going.

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Let's be honest.

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Oh yeah.

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Yep.

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We're good.

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We're not going to mention it now, but we

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just got a little side hustle,

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which has to do with biology,

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believe it or not.

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It's really cool.

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Can't wait to get into it.

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So let's do that.

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While we here's the interview with

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Dominique and joy, and

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we will talk to you after.

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Hey, Dominique.

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Welcome back to the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about go sharks?

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Oh, you bet.

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I love it.

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Love it.

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Well, I want to welcome everybody to the

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Beyond Jaws podcast for today.

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We have real royalty on the

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podcast with our highness.

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Dr. Dominique Didier

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as our special guest.

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Dominique's been dubbed the queen of

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ratfish by none other than

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illustrator extraordinaire Ray troll,

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who's been in a

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previous guest on our program.

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Dominique's a professor in the department

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of biology at Millersville

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University in Pennsylvania,

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where her research focuses on the

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taxonomy of Condry Thean fishes,

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evolution and systematic of fishes,

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comparative anatomy and

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development of fishes,

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and biology of human

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sexuality and gender.

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Dominique is one of our first guests

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appearing on our fifth episode way back

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on August 11th, 2021.

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And now we're up to episode 127.

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So it's been a little while and long

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overdue to have her back on the show.

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Agreeing.

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She went to she attended

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for a bachelor's degree,

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Illinois's Westland

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University for a degree in biology.

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And she went on to the PhD in zoology at

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University of Massachusetts with Dr.

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Willie Bemis, who also the

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previous guest on our show.

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And he was her major advisor for her PhD.

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Dominique has a lengthy resume.

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It includes over 50 publications,

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numerous accomplishments,

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including being one of the

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most accomplished Condrythean taxonomist,

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having described most

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more ghost shark species

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than anyone else on this earth.

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She's a frequent collaborator of mine and

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has mentored many

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students, including some

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of my former students such as Kim Kim

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Caronta, Lewis Barnett, Kelsey James and

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Jenny Kemper to mention a few.

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Dominique and I are currently coauthoring

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a book ghost sharks the

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world with Jenny Kemper and

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Britt Fanucci with illustrations by

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another illustrator

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extraordinaire Mark Dando, the book

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we published next year by

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Princeton University Press.

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And you follow us on social media.

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We'll let you know once we

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have a better date on that.

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She's also a member of the Jaws

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generation of researchers who started her

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career in the 1980s, even though she

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doesn't look that old.

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And she's also featured in the latest

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episode of searching for lost sharks

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extinct or alive, which you can find on

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my YouTube channel at

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Live Shark Guy. And with that, Dominique,

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welcome to the show.

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Great. Thanks. It's a

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pleasure to be back.

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Um, yeah, well, I got started, uh,

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looking at ghost sharks as an

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undergraduate at

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Illinois Wesleyan University.

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I actually believe it or not wanted to

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study bats, love bats. I

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think they're totally amazing.

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And but my professor at the time who

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studied bats said, no, no, no, too many

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bat people got to say

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something different.

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So he brought out this like really

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horrible fish, you know, that we had the

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comparative anatomy lab.

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He's like, look at this thing. And I was

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like, oh, not the supreme

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ugliness. You kidding me?

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So, uh, but I was, you know, he was

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persistent. I was persistent. So I said,

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all right, I'll do it.

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So I started doing my undergraduate

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research on this fish. Uh, my professor

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actually bought a few new ones,

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which it turned out the one I was looking

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at was kind of rotten.

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That's why it looks so horrible.

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So after I started, though, I have to

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tell you, I've really dove into this

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research. And when I was looking,

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you know, when you do any kind of

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research, you got to find

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the background publications.

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I have to say my seminal publication I

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was dealing with was published in 1906.

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That kind of tells you

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something about what people knew about

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this. Actually, there's another

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publication in 1965,

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they're called Patterson that dealt with

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fossil taxa, which I was dealing with the

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living fish, but it

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was incredibly helpful.

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Wonderful publication. But I realized

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like nobody's working on these and being

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a person who really hates competition,

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like sports are not my thing.

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Like no competition at all. I was like,

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this is for me. And

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that's what got me started.

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I just realized no one was doing it and

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someone had to love these things. And so

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I decided that's me.

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I just love them. How did you because

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you're from Illinois and you went to you

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went to your undergirder.

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That's I just got asked, how did you how

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did your professor pick

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up on ratfish in Illinois?

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Well, I, you know, I don't know how he

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got the inkling that I kind of was

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interested in marine

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science. I have to say I was

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I was raised in a pretty unusual

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household. My parents were scuba divers

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in 1967. Literally, my

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mom read about Jacque

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Stowe and the, you know, regulator, you

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know, self-contained underwater breathing

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apparatus and said, we're

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going to do this, honey.

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And literally she and my dad went on a

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boat. Some guy gave him all the gear and

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said, go in the water. If you come up

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alive, you're certified.

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That was certification. And I kid you

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not. And they became certified scuba

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divers. And so they

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so I grew up with that.

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Like that was weekends was going with

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them to a boat. They were out scuba

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diving. Then we started

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going to the Caribbean.

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I've been to places in the Caribbean,

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seeing reefs from like the early 1970s

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that are just were pristine at the time.

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You know, so I had a really rich

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childhood and I guess maybe I don't

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remember if I told that to my professor,

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but he knew I was

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interested kind of in marine science.

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And so I think that's why he pushed me to

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this this fish. And I've always had that

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interest in that that drive to be

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involved with the ocean and

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involved in marine science.

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OK, cool. And then obviously went out to

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know you went to University of

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Massachusetts Amherst and you

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hooked up with Willie Bemis.

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How that happened?

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Well, that was another really well

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thought out idea. Oh, man, do not track

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my choices because I

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did not plan anything.

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How I got to graduate school as I was a

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T.A. in the comparative anatomy lab. And

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I don't know what I was going to do. I

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just kind of like biology.

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My professor said, what are you going to

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do after school? And I said, oh, I don't

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know. He said, why don't you go to grad

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school? And I went, well, what's that?

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Because my parents had never gone to

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college. And so right.

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And he said, well, you pretty much do

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this, but you get a PhD

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and then you teach college.

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01:07:37,291 --> 01:07:39,833
Sounds good. Sign me up. And then we had

278
01:07:39,833 --> 01:07:41,875
to pick a grad school and he said, well,

279
01:07:42,250 --> 01:07:43,375
where are you going to go? I said, I

280
01:07:43,375 --> 01:07:44,208
don't know. I don't know

281
01:07:44,208 --> 01:07:44,916
anything about grad school.

282
01:07:45,208 --> 01:07:47,083
I said, where'd you go? He said, you mess

283
01:07:47,083 --> 01:07:48,333
Amherst. I said, all right, sounds good

284
01:07:48,333 --> 01:07:51,500
to me. I mean, that's not not a very

285
01:07:51,500 --> 01:07:53,750
trusting, very trusting person.

286
01:07:54,083 --> 01:07:55,208
Yeah. And actually how I got into

287
01:07:55,208 --> 01:07:57,000
Willie's lab is pretty funny. And I don't

288
01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:58,125
know if Willie will remember the story,

289
01:07:58,583 --> 01:08:00,166
but I went to meet him

290
01:08:00,166 --> 01:08:01,000
and visit the school.

291
01:08:01,291 --> 01:08:02,958
But he wasn't there. He was off to a

292
01:08:02,958 --> 01:08:05,583
fieldwork. So when I went toward the

293
01:08:05,583 --> 01:08:07,000
campus, decided, yes, it's good. I'm

294
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:07,833
going to go to grad school there.

295
01:08:08,791 --> 01:08:10,916
And at the time to sign up for classes,

296
01:08:10,916 --> 01:08:12,291
he walked around the card and the

297
01:08:12,291 --> 01:08:13,500
professor signed you into all your

298
01:08:13,500 --> 01:08:16,000
classes. I couldn't find Willie to save

299
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:16,541
my life. I don't know

300
01:08:16,541 --> 01:08:17,291
what the guy looked like.

301
01:08:17,750 --> 01:08:18,958
So I went to the secretary's office and

302
01:08:18,958 --> 01:08:20,500
said, look, I'm supposed to be Willie's

303
01:08:20,500 --> 01:08:21,875
graduate student. Just sign me up to be

304
01:08:21,875 --> 01:08:23,666
in all his classes and work with him.

305
01:08:23,708 --> 01:08:25,750
And she's like, well, you really need his

306
01:08:25,750 --> 01:08:27,625
permission. I said, no, I'm like talking

307
01:08:27,625 --> 01:08:29,125
my way into it. I'm like, oh, he wants

308
01:08:29,125 --> 01:08:30,333
me. Don't worry about it.

309
01:08:30,750 --> 01:08:32,666
And then finally she said, you could ask

310
01:08:32,666 --> 01:08:34,000
him, he's sitting right there.

311
01:08:34,375 --> 01:08:35,458
Now that I feel like an idiot.

312
01:08:38,500 --> 01:08:40,000
Were he listening into the conversation?

313
01:08:40,708 --> 01:08:42,416
Yes, he can. Right next to me.

314
01:08:43,458 --> 01:08:45,666
I'm talking my way into his lab. Yeah, it

315
01:08:45,666 --> 01:08:46,791
was not a really. I

316
01:08:46,791 --> 01:08:48,000
don't need it. It's fine.

317
01:08:49,583 --> 01:08:51,416
You knew that was going to go one or two

318
01:08:51,416 --> 01:08:53,291
ways. Either you're going to get a lab or

319
01:08:53,291 --> 01:08:55,291
you're going to be back home in Illinois.

320
01:08:55,916 --> 01:08:59,625
Pretty much. Yeah. That's a great. I

321
01:08:59,625 --> 01:09:00,833
don't think I'd heard that one before.

322
01:09:00,833 --> 01:09:03,000
No, it was a pretty funny story. That was

323
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:05,000
how I first met Willie. Let me ask you

324
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:05,916
this. You mentioned you were

325
01:09:05,916 --> 01:09:07,166
a TA during your undergrad.

326
01:09:08,041 --> 01:09:10,083
Isn't that I've never I've never heard of

327
01:09:10,083 --> 01:09:12,875
that before. Was that like a like a

328
01:09:12,875 --> 01:09:13,875
special thing or did

329
01:09:13,875 --> 01:09:15,250
you normally like the or

330
01:09:15,916 --> 01:09:18,583
the the university not have a graduate

331
01:09:18,583 --> 01:09:20,666
program where you had TAs? Like how did

332
01:09:20,666 --> 01:09:23,708
you become a TA as an undergrad? Well, I

333
01:09:23,708 --> 01:09:25,583
was really lucky. I went to, you know,

334
01:09:25,583 --> 01:09:27,375
Illinois West was a really small school.

335
01:09:27,958 --> 01:09:30,291
Yeah. And, you know, I showed up as a bio

336
01:09:30,291 --> 01:09:31,833
major, you know, all young and bright

337
01:09:31,833 --> 01:09:34,666
eyed and I just worked really hard. I got

338
01:09:34,666 --> 01:09:36,041
a really good grade in my first class.

339
01:09:36,250 --> 01:09:38,666
And so the professor, you know, tapped me

340
01:09:38,666 --> 01:09:40,208
and said, you want to be a TA. So they

341
01:09:40,208 --> 01:09:42,291
often drew upon their top students to be

342
01:09:42,291 --> 01:09:45,208
TA. OK. I actually TA'd every single

343
01:09:45,208 --> 01:09:47,958
course I took there except for unreal.

344
01:09:48,541 --> 01:09:50,666
Except for the last senior year, because

345
01:09:50,666 --> 01:09:52,000
of course, I couldn't write back to it.

346
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:55,291
But yeah, I TA botany, I TA development,

347
01:09:55,708 --> 01:09:57,666
I TA comparative anatomy. It was great.

348
01:09:58,333 --> 01:10:01,000
So but that's not like just a guy in

349
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:02,666
Canada. We don't know that doesn't

350
01:10:02,666 --> 01:10:05,458
normally occur. Is that a is that a rare

351
01:10:05,458 --> 01:10:06,250
thing or is that more

352
01:10:06,250 --> 01:10:07,416
for smaller schools?

353
01:10:08,208 --> 01:10:10,250
It's pretty rare. And I think even for

354
01:10:10,250 --> 01:10:12,000
small schools, it's kind of rare. I got

355
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:14,125
pretty lucky. OK. Yeah, that's that's a

356
01:10:14,125 --> 01:10:15,375
fantastic opportunity.

357
01:10:16,375 --> 01:10:18,416
It was great. Like you learned so much

358
01:10:18,416 --> 01:10:19,750
more like you're it's almost like a

359
01:10:19,750 --> 01:10:21,666
second level of learning because you

360
01:10:21,666 --> 01:10:23,458
know, the course material. But now you're

361
01:10:23,458 --> 01:10:25,083
learning probably even more. Right.

362
01:10:26,250 --> 01:10:29,458
Yeah. Now, we didn't have you should have

363
01:10:29,458 --> 01:10:31,791
had you on the show when we did the we

364
01:10:31,791 --> 01:10:33,625
did a special Jaws fiftieth anniversary.

365
01:10:33,625 --> 01:10:35,333
So I got to ask you the question, did

366
01:10:35,333 --> 01:10:38,291
Jaws have any influence in your decision?

367
01:10:39,125 --> 01:10:40,750
I'm glad you didn't have me on the show

368
01:10:40,750 --> 01:10:44,416
because Jaws had no influence on me. All

369
01:10:44,416 --> 01:10:46,208
I remember is as a kid, you know, of

370
01:10:46,208 --> 01:10:47,958
course, the book and the movie and the

371
01:10:47,958 --> 01:10:48,666
picture of the woman

372
01:10:48,666 --> 01:10:49,625
swimming in the shark.

373
01:10:49,791 --> 01:10:51,500
You know, the whole thing. Yeah, but I

374
01:10:51,500 --> 01:10:54,416
just never watched any of those movies. I

375
01:10:54,416 --> 01:10:56,416
just as a kid, I was really scared of

376
01:10:56,416 --> 01:10:58,791
everything like documentaries on

377
01:10:58,791 --> 01:10:59,875
Sasquatch would scare

378
01:10:59,875 --> 01:11:01,250
me and it's fake. Right.

379
01:11:01,500 --> 01:11:05,458
So I was really not into it. But I did

380
01:11:05,458 --> 01:11:08,000
watch those movies like Jaws and I

381
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,041
watched Exorcist and all those 70s movies

382
01:11:10,041 --> 01:11:11,333
when I was an adult. They were scary.

383
01:11:12,250 --> 01:11:14,666
Well, they just scare me then. No, no,

384
01:11:14,958 --> 01:11:16,833
because those mess with my mind. There

385
01:11:16,833 --> 01:11:19,291
was so much hype. You know, I was so I

386
01:11:19,291 --> 01:11:21,250
was so scared as a kid of everything. So

387
01:11:21,250 --> 01:11:23,333
then like movie wise, everything I wasn't

388
01:11:23,333 --> 01:11:25,083
scared about doors, just movies.

389
01:11:25,083 --> 01:11:28,916
And then so when I finally I go like it's

390
01:11:28,916 --> 01:11:30,791
gonna be so terrifying. And then when I

391
01:11:30,791 --> 01:11:32,375
finally watched it as an adult, I'm like,

392
01:11:32,375 --> 01:11:34,208
oh, my God, the effects are so fake. This

393
01:11:34,208 --> 01:11:37,708
is not really happening. Yeah. Yeah. So I

394
01:11:37,708 --> 01:11:39,291
have to say Jaws is a big letdown.

395
01:11:44,041 --> 01:11:48,375
Oh, I could say all the people having

396
01:11:48,375 --> 01:11:49,875
watched it. We talked about this in the

397
01:11:49,875 --> 01:11:51,500
episode because Chris Lowe and Grace

398
01:11:51,500 --> 01:11:52,500
Gohman, Lisa and Tansy we

399
01:11:52,500 --> 01:11:53,916
all saw it when it came out.

400
01:11:54,625 --> 01:11:57,583
And we saw it in 75. It looked like a

401
01:11:57,583 --> 01:11:59,791
really sharp. We knew nothing about it.

402
01:11:59,791 --> 01:12:01,500
But when you watch it years later, you're

403
01:12:01,500 --> 01:12:05,208
like, it looks like a fake shark. Yeah.

404
01:12:06,250 --> 01:12:10,333
Oh, I'm sure if I had seen it in 1975, I

405
01:12:10,333 --> 01:12:12,458
would. Yeah, it would had a totally

406
01:12:12,458 --> 01:12:14,458
different impact on me. Yes, definitely.

407
01:12:14,791 --> 01:12:16,958
Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of the only

408
01:12:16,958 --> 01:12:18,666
reason we mentioned is because like when

409
01:12:18,666 --> 01:12:20,625
most of it, we started like kind of in

410
01:12:20,625 --> 01:12:22,458
the 80s. It was you kind of just

411
01:12:22,458 --> 01:12:24,500
described it your own career path.

412
01:12:24,500 --> 01:12:25,708
Can you start with? It was kind of like

413
01:12:25,708 --> 01:12:27,208
the Wild West, like that throughout

414
01:12:27,208 --> 01:12:28,583
something like, hey, why don't you go

415
01:12:28,583 --> 01:12:30,541
work on ratfish or hey, why don't you go

416
01:12:30,541 --> 01:12:32,666
work on this shark or this

417
01:12:32,666 --> 01:12:34,208
ray? And it's like, okay, sure.

418
01:12:34,250 --> 01:12:36,791
Yeah, like you didn't think about it was

419
01:12:36,791 --> 01:12:39,750
like, sure. Okay. Because there's no, you

420
01:12:39,750 --> 01:12:40,791
know, it wasn't like this morning. I just

421
01:12:40,791 --> 01:12:42,625
did what you're told kind of things like,

422
01:12:42,625 --> 01:12:44,458
oh, that sounds interesting. Yeah, I just

423
01:12:44,458 --> 01:12:46,208
feel like literally throw almost every

424
01:12:46,208 --> 01:12:47,583
all the people I just mentioned and

425
01:12:47,583 --> 01:12:49,125
you're you fit right in their Domics just

426
01:12:49,125 --> 01:12:51,000
like somebody just throw out some idea

427
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:51,583
and you're like, hey,

428
01:12:51,583 --> 01:12:52,208
that's kind of cool.

429
01:12:52,625 --> 01:12:55,833
And I think that's kind of you're in it

430
01:12:55,833 --> 01:12:57,291
right now, David, I think that's kind of

431
01:12:57,291 --> 01:12:59,333
missing a bit in some of the programs

432
01:12:59,333 --> 01:13:00,958
today where they don't give the students

433
01:13:00,958 --> 01:13:04,166
like enough, like, you know, like, hey,

434
01:13:04,166 --> 01:13:05,625
come up with your own idea for something.

435
01:13:05,625 --> 01:13:07,416
You know, it's there's too much. It's too

436
01:13:07,416 --> 01:13:08,625
rigid. That's just my

437
01:13:08,625 --> 01:13:09,500
impression. What's your.

438
01:13:10,250 --> 01:13:12,750
Yeah, I think I think we're really lucky

439
01:13:12,750 --> 01:13:14,291
to be in a really special time. We

440
01:13:14,291 --> 01:13:16,166
started our careers where there was that

441
01:13:16,166 --> 01:13:18,583
kind of sense of opportunity. You weren't

442
01:13:18,583 --> 01:13:20,500
so worried about like, I have to make

443
01:13:20,500 --> 01:13:22,333
sure 10 years from now I can get a grant.

444
01:13:22,541 --> 01:13:24,375
So I have to plan everything like that.

445
01:13:24,375 --> 01:13:26,333
We just kind of said, let's do it and see

446
01:13:26,333 --> 01:13:27,250
what happens. And we

447
01:13:27,250 --> 01:13:28,208
were really lucky, I think.

448
01:13:28,250 --> 01:13:31,541
Yeah, I think you hit on something too.

449
01:13:31,541 --> 01:13:32,791
Like when you're talking about like when

450
01:13:32,791 --> 01:13:34,083
you're finishing your undergrad and

451
01:13:34,083 --> 01:13:36,041
somebody said, why don't you go to grad

452
01:13:36,041 --> 01:13:39,041
school? And you're like, okay. Yeah, I

453
01:13:39,041 --> 01:13:40,583
think if you talk to everyone, the people

454
01:13:40,583 --> 01:13:42,916
I just mentioned, Chris, Greg, Lisa,

455
01:13:42,916 --> 01:13:44,833
myself, none of us had like some

456
01:13:44,833 --> 01:13:47,166
grandiose, like I'm going to go do a PhD.

457
01:13:47,166 --> 01:13:48,666
It was kind of like, well, I got a

458
01:13:48,666 --> 01:13:50,791
bachelor's degree now what? And then we

459
01:13:50,791 --> 01:13:53,500
all sort of there was no, you know,

460
01:13:53,500 --> 01:13:54,958
where's the young people today are like,

461
01:13:54,958 --> 01:13:56,291
got this plan like, okay, I need to do

462
01:13:56,291 --> 01:13:57,166
this. I need to do this.

463
01:13:57,250 --> 01:14:00,250
None of us thought like PhD and I was

464
01:14:00,250 --> 01:14:02,916
like, you know, my family gone to schools

465
01:14:02,916 --> 01:14:04,416
like grad school, what are you talking

466
01:14:04,416 --> 01:14:06,833
about? I know. I know. My mom used to

467
01:14:06,833 --> 01:14:09,000
send me tormenting cards my senior year,

468
01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:10,625
like, what are you gonna do open a

469
01:14:10,625 --> 01:14:12,375
biology store? You know.

470
01:14:16,250 --> 01:14:20,458
That's great. I love that. Yeah. Troll by

471
01:14:20,458 --> 01:14:23,708
your own mom. I was, I was. Yeah, that's

472
01:14:23,708 --> 01:14:25,958
awesome. That was just such a good, I was

473
01:14:25,958 --> 01:14:27,208
such a good, like you said, it was just, it was such a good thing.

474
01:14:27,250 --> 01:14:29,791
It was such a good experience that time

475
01:14:29,791 --> 01:14:31,625
because it was just, it was such a wild

476
01:14:31,625 --> 01:14:34,666
West. It's hard to be nice to recapture

477
01:14:34,666 --> 01:14:35,791
that. I think for a lot of the young

478
01:14:35,791 --> 01:14:37,583
people today just have that freedom to

479
01:14:37,583 --> 01:14:40,208
like, Hey, I'm going to go do whatever.

480
01:14:40,208 --> 01:14:41,750
And they just go do it. They don't have,

481
01:14:41,750 --> 01:14:44,125
there's no constraints. There's no, I

482
01:14:44,125 --> 01:14:46,250
have to go. There's, there's, there's,

483
01:14:46,250 --> 01:14:47,666
there's no, there's no real, I mean, like

484
01:14:47,666 --> 01:14:49,125
I've talked about and you can, you can

485
01:14:49,125 --> 01:14:50,750
attest to this Dominique there. There was

486
01:14:50,750 --> 01:14:52,750
no field of conservation biology back

487
01:14:52,750 --> 01:14:54,750
then. It was just like, it

488
01:14:54,750 --> 01:14:57,208
wasn't even, it wasn't even a

489
01:14:57,250 --> 01:14:59,958
thing. It was just like, like, you know,

490
01:15:00,208 --> 01:15:01,791
you get something like why are you doing

491
01:15:01,791 --> 01:15:04,666
sharks or, you know, got met, not even a

492
01:15:04,666 --> 01:15:06,875
mentioned ratfish. You're even like fewer

493
01:15:06,875 --> 01:15:09,791
than, I mean, I remember the first time I

494
01:15:09,791 --> 01:15:12,791
saw your name pop up somewhere. I kind of

495
01:15:12,791 --> 01:15:14,458
remember where it was. I think you're

496
01:15:14,458 --> 01:15:15,791
about where you're going to New Zealand

497
01:15:15,791 --> 01:15:17,833
to do some work there. And I was kind of

498
01:15:17,833 --> 01:15:20,166
going like somebody else's work. I was

499
01:15:20,166 --> 01:15:21,458
just a student at Leonard. I go somebody

500
01:15:21,458 --> 01:15:22,833
else working on a ratfish. Who's working

501
01:15:22,833 --> 01:15:24,708
on a ratfish? And I saw you're like,

502
01:15:24,708 --> 01:15:26,000
Willie, I didn't know Willie would do

503
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:27,208
anything with ratfish. And I saw you

504
01:15:27,250 --> 01:15:28,875
name kept popping up for a number of

505
01:15:28,875 --> 01:15:30,375
years there. And I go, Oh, I guess there

506
01:15:30,375 --> 01:15:32,041
is someone else working on these things.

507
01:15:34,333 --> 01:15:36,541
Because at the time Leonard was Leonard

508
01:15:36,541 --> 01:15:39,458
was about the only guy that I knew that

509
01:15:39,458 --> 01:15:41,583
did anything with really with ratfish at

510
01:15:41,583 --> 01:15:44,041
the time Leonard Campagno. And so it was

511
01:15:44,041 --> 01:15:45,458
just such a, it was because it was just

512
01:15:45,458 --> 01:15:47,250
such a small group. So it was just kind

513
01:15:47,250 --> 01:15:49,583
of interested. You just, they, they just

514
01:15:49,583 --> 01:15:51,000
got you onto that and you just took off

515
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:53,208
and just really did exceptionally well in

516
01:15:53,208 --> 01:15:55,541
the whole field. How did,

517
01:15:55,708 --> 01:15:57,208
so I'm sure we heard this

518
01:15:57,250 --> 01:15:59,333
story before and Ray was on, but how'd

519
01:15:59,333 --> 01:16:00,958
you happen to cross paths

520
01:16:00,958 --> 01:16:03,250
with Ray troll later on?

521
01:16:04,166 --> 01:16:06,833
You know, what happened was, you know, I

522
01:16:06,833 --> 01:16:09,708
knew about his art and he

523
01:16:09,708 --> 01:16:10,875
obviously had heard about

524
01:16:10,875 --> 01:16:12,666
me because he's so interested in drawing

525
01:16:12,666 --> 01:16:13,750
the, you know, the white

526
01:16:13,750 --> 01:16:15,708
spot ratfish and, and the,

527
01:16:15,791 --> 01:16:18,000
the other ratfishes and other fishes as

528
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:20,083
well. And out of the blue,

529
01:16:20,625 --> 01:16:22,458
I got a package from him.

530
01:16:22,541 --> 01:16:23,958
He really just, I don't know what

531
01:16:23,958 --> 01:16:26,541
inspired him, but he, he silkscreen, he

532
01:16:26,541 --> 01:16:29,375
printed a lab coat. And on the back, it

533
01:16:29,375 --> 01:16:31,625
was like ratfish charters. And it had

534
01:16:31,625 --> 01:16:32,625
this whole, you know,

535
01:16:32,625 --> 01:16:33,541
Rachel print on the back.

536
01:16:34,041 --> 01:16:35,250
And he just sent it to me out of the blue

537
01:16:35,250 --> 01:16:37,500
and just said, Hey, I people have told me

538
01:16:37,500 --> 01:16:40,208
I should get to know you. And I was just

539
01:16:40,208 --> 01:16:41,750
so thought that was just so cool. I still

540
01:16:41,750 --> 01:16:43,250
have a lab coat. I still wear it. It's

541
01:16:43,250 --> 01:16:46,875
really beat up, but it's cool. And, and

542
01:16:46,875 --> 01:16:48,666
he, and so I wrote him back, you know,

543
01:16:48,666 --> 01:16:49,500
that's how we made the connection.

544
01:16:49,583 --> 01:16:52,250
And so then we chatted and then whenever

545
01:16:52,250 --> 01:16:56,041
he was traveling around, he come visit me

546
01:16:56,041 --> 01:16:57,625
at the time I was working at the Academy

547
01:16:57,625 --> 01:17:00,416
of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia.

548
01:17:01,916 --> 01:17:05,250
And so, you know, this was so long ago,

549
01:17:05,250 --> 01:17:07,625
but anyway, he and I connected and then

550
01:17:07,625 --> 01:17:09,166
he was starting to work on museum

551
01:17:09,166 --> 01:17:10,916
exhibits. So I was able to

552
01:17:10,916 --> 01:17:12,833
connect him to our exhibit staff.

553
01:17:13,416 --> 01:17:14,625
So then he made connections with the

554
01:17:14,625 --> 01:17:16,083
Academy of Natural Sciences. So that kind

555
01:17:16,083 --> 01:17:18,166
of brought him full circle in with where

556
01:17:18,166 --> 01:17:19,375
I was working. And we had a lot of

557
01:17:19,375 --> 01:17:21,833
opportunity to work together. And I just

558
01:17:21,833 --> 01:17:23,375
it just flourished from there.

559
01:17:23,375 --> 01:17:26,166
You know, we've periodically connected,

560
01:17:26,166 --> 01:17:29,208
talked, get together whenever, you know,

561
01:17:29,208 --> 01:17:30,791
I'm out West or if he's

562
01:17:30,791 --> 01:17:32,791
out East. So yeah, so.

563
01:17:33,208 --> 01:17:35,208
Yeah, he's definitely caring. He's

564
01:17:35,208 --> 01:17:36,500
definitely into it. He definitely got a

565
01:17:36,500 --> 01:17:38,708
good eye, that artist eye for for things.

566
01:17:38,958 --> 01:17:41,208
And we talked about this when he was on.

567
01:17:41,208 --> 01:17:42,708
But I want to hear your thing about the

568
01:17:42,708 --> 01:17:45,833
buzz tooth shark that

569
01:17:45,833 --> 01:17:47,083
turned out to be a chimera.

570
01:17:47,250 --> 01:17:49,833
Yes, yes. Yeah. Well, that was one of

571
01:17:49,833 --> 01:17:51,791
those situations where he was coming to

572
01:17:51,791 --> 01:17:53,666
visit me. I can't again remember why

573
01:17:53,666 --> 01:17:55,500
maybe a new exhibit was coming. I think

574
01:17:55,500 --> 01:17:58,000
he had an exhibit at the at the time. Now

575
01:17:58,000 --> 01:17:58,833
I was at Millersville.

576
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:01,000
And I think he had maybe had his exhibit

577
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:03,250
up at the North Museum in Lancaster. And

578
01:18:03,250 --> 01:18:04,291
so he said, Oh, yeah, we got to get

579
01:18:04,291 --> 01:18:05,916
together. So came to my lab and we had

580
01:18:05,916 --> 01:18:07,500
some looking at some fish and just

581
01:18:07,500 --> 01:18:09,916
chatting. And he said to me, he had his

582
01:18:09,916 --> 01:18:11,750
computer out. He's like, you got to get

583
01:18:11,750 --> 01:18:13,083
interested in this. There's this whole

584
01:18:13,083 --> 01:18:14,625
group out there. And they've got all

585
01:18:14,625 --> 01:18:17,375
these fossils. And we got to look at

586
01:18:17,375 --> 01:18:18,916
these fossils. We got to figure out these

587
01:18:18,916 --> 01:18:21,541
buzz sharks. And so that's kind of where

588
01:18:21,541 --> 01:18:22,708
the ball got rolling. I said, well, I

589
01:18:22,708 --> 01:18:23,250
happen to have some

590
01:18:23,250 --> 01:18:25,375
money. And then we got

591
01:18:25,416 --> 01:18:30,208
the leaf tepania and his graduate student

592
01:18:30,208 --> 01:18:33,208
were able to get the fossil down. I guess

593
01:18:33,208 --> 01:18:35,000
Texas was where the imaging center that

594
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:37,333
they did it at. And then they said, well,

595
01:18:37,333 --> 01:18:38,708
we don't know how to interpret this. So

596
01:18:38,708 --> 01:18:40,083
then I got connected with

597
01:18:40,166 --> 01:18:46,458
Elan Purdell in Paris and then we needed

598
01:18:46,458 --> 01:18:48,500
to get some biomechanics. So I connected

599
01:18:48,500 --> 01:18:52,500
him with Cheryl Wilga. I think she was

600
01:18:52,500 --> 01:18:54,916
URI. So anyway, we just built this whole

601
01:18:54,916 --> 01:18:57,291
team like and got the ball rolling on

602
01:18:57,291 --> 01:18:58,333
this big project. It was a

603
01:18:58,333 --> 01:18:59,666
lot of fun. It was very cool.

604
01:19:00,416 --> 01:19:01,666
And what'd you think when you came out

605
01:19:01,666 --> 01:19:02,916
because everybody kept thinking this was

606
01:19:02,916 --> 01:19:04,916
some kind of a shark. Yeah. It turned out

607
01:19:04,916 --> 01:19:07,166
it was a ghost shark. What sold me on it

608
01:19:07,166 --> 01:19:10,708
was we were on a conference call and they

609
01:19:10,708 --> 01:19:12,958
were analyzing a lot of the imagery and

610
01:19:12,958 --> 01:19:14,958
said this lower jaw is so short. And I

611
01:19:14,958 --> 01:19:17,333
said, it's just like a chimera lower jaw.

612
01:19:17,333 --> 01:19:20,458
It's really short. And you know that the

613
01:19:20,458 --> 01:19:22,958
jaw joints move forward of the eye. It's

614
01:19:22,958 --> 01:19:24,958
very typical what you see in the whole of

615
01:19:24,958 --> 01:19:26,291
the civilians. Yeah.

616
01:19:26,333 --> 01:19:28,500
Yeah. Yeah. And anybody listening there,

617
01:19:28,500 --> 01:19:30,625
go check out the the the buzz is buzz

618
01:19:30,625 --> 01:19:32,625
tooth saw shark. Is it that was the

619
01:19:32,625 --> 01:19:35,791
formal name or uh uh well, Teleka Prien.

620
01:19:35,791 --> 01:19:38,666
It's the uh. Yeah, Buzz saw tooth shark.

621
01:19:38,666 --> 01:19:40,333
I think. Yeah, I just think of it as a

622
01:19:40,333 --> 01:19:43,000
prime. Yeah. I yeah. I do too. But I've

623
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:45,041
but go check it out. Helico Prien buzz.

624
01:19:45,041 --> 01:19:47,166
Look at the image of that and then just

625
01:19:47,166 --> 01:19:48,916
think this is this is a ghost shark.

626
01:19:48,916 --> 01:19:51,041
Yeah. Now, that'll that'll give you some

627
01:19:51,041 --> 01:19:52,500
nightmares. I'll tell you that with the

628
01:19:52,500 --> 01:19:54,625
and he does this to he does this too is

629
01:19:54,625 --> 01:19:56,000
over there. A lot of

630
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:56,291
these crazy things. Yeah.

631
01:19:56,333 --> 01:19:56,750
That's why we're doing these crazy things

632
01:19:56,750 --> 01:19:58,125
that we think our sharks are actually

633
01:19:58,125 --> 01:20:01,000
chimeras. They're on the side of the tree

634
01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:03,875
and they go back like the chimeras that

635
01:20:03,875 --> 01:20:05,958
goes. They go back like over 400 million

636
01:20:05,958 --> 01:20:07,625
years. The earliest ancestors that

637
01:20:07,625 --> 01:20:10,416
correct. I think we've got it like 375

638
01:20:10,416 --> 01:20:13,625
maybe a little more than 375. But yeah,

639
01:20:13,916 --> 01:20:15,833
we're right around that time, you know,

640
01:20:15,833 --> 01:20:17,125
just close. They go back quite. Dovoni

641
01:20:17,125 --> 01:20:19,791
and carboniferous basically. Mm hmm. What

642
01:20:19,791 --> 01:20:22,625
what what are the the modern ones that we

643
01:20:22,625 --> 01:20:25,666
see today and there's only 59 right now

644
01:20:25,666 --> 01:20:26,291
and what would they do? And it's not

645
01:20:29,166 --> 01:20:31,083
just the most interesting. Yeah. And and so when did

646
01:20:31,083 --> 01:20:33,041
this sort of modern ones sort of come

647
01:20:33,041 --> 01:20:36,291
about? How long ago did that? Oh, man.

648
01:20:36,291 --> 01:20:39,541
You're stretching me now. Um I don't know

649
01:20:39,541 --> 01:20:41,708
myself. I see more modern. It was sort of

650
01:20:41,708 --> 01:20:48,208
like we're talking like end of um end of

651
01:20:48,208 --> 01:20:51,500
the Mesozoic into the the Cenozoic, you

652
01:20:51,500 --> 01:20:54,541
know, and so right at that

653
01:20:54,541 --> 01:20:56,791
time when we had like basically

654
01:20:59,166 --> 01:21:01,125
actually when they were most abundant was

655
01:21:01,125 --> 01:21:03,708
down in the carboniferous. All right. And

656
01:21:03,708 --> 01:21:05,541
then what we see sort of the transition

657
01:21:05,541 --> 01:21:07,416
to the more modern ones kind of Jurassic

658
01:21:07,416 --> 01:21:10,083
and then in that, you know, Mesozoic time

659
01:21:10,083 --> 01:21:11,958
period. And there's also just new

660
01:21:11,958 --> 01:21:15,333
research that shows that all that that

661
01:21:15,333 --> 01:21:18,000
what was around at that time probably due

662
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:19,750
to a variety of environmental factors,

663
01:21:19,750 --> 01:21:22,250
evolution of other fauna's and shallow

664
01:21:22,250 --> 01:21:25,833
seas. They move deep to escape. You know,

665
01:21:25,833 --> 01:21:27,708
a lot of these huge predators that had

666
01:21:27,708 --> 01:21:29,041
moved, you know, the Mesozoic, they

667
01:21:29,333 --> 01:21:31,125
returned a lot of mammals return to the

668
01:21:31,125 --> 01:21:32,833
sea and reptiles returned to the sea and

669
01:21:32,833 --> 01:21:35,208
so on. So they moved down deep and so

670
01:21:35,208 --> 01:21:37,000
that's that was probably, you know, late

671
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:39,500
Mesozoic and then the Cenozoic when they

672
01:21:39,500 --> 01:21:40,916
moved in the deep waters and then we're

673
01:21:40,916 --> 01:21:43,291
able to radiate, you know, without the

674
01:21:43,291 --> 01:21:45,375
huge predators that the predation and

675
01:21:45,375 --> 01:21:47,000
perhaps other environmental factors that

676
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:49,041
they may have faced at the time. Yeah. So

677
01:21:49,041 --> 01:21:50,291
most of them kind of went into the deep

678
01:21:50,291 --> 01:21:52,083
sea now because of the whatever 59

679
01:21:52,083 --> 01:21:54,375
species we we have coming out in our

680
01:21:54,375 --> 01:21:56,750
book. Uh most of them except for a few

681
01:21:56,750 --> 01:21:58,958
exceptions, the the calorincus, the plow

682
01:21:59,166 --> 01:22:01,333
and the c

683
01:22:01,458 --> 01:22:03,000
sharks, they pretty much the rest of them

684
01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:05,541
are all deep sea for the most part. So do

685
01:22:05,541 --> 01:22:07,291
you think they pretty much evolved into a

686
01:22:07,291 --> 01:22:09,375
deep sea from more from more from more

687
01:22:09,375 --> 01:22:11,375
coastal species? That's a speculation and

688
01:22:11,375 --> 01:22:13,541
that that that may be very likely. Yeah.

689
01:22:14,291 --> 01:22:15,958
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's kind of

690
01:22:15,958 --> 01:22:17,875
because it seems like most people think

691
01:22:17,875 --> 01:22:19,458
like it involved from the deep sea to the

692
01:22:19,458 --> 01:22:22,000
shallow but in reality, most think the

693
01:22:22,000 --> 01:22:23,500
sharks and rays actually evolved from

694
01:22:23,500 --> 01:22:25,125
coastal species into the more the deep

695
01:22:25,125 --> 01:22:27,458
sea took up habitats where they had with

696
01:22:27,458 --> 01:22:28,958
it maybe less predation or something

697
01:22:28,958 --> 01:22:30,500
where they where they went. So yeah.

698
01:22:31,791 --> 01:22:33,833
Good questions for some grad students out

699
01:22:33,833 --> 01:22:35,041
there. If you're looking for a project to

700
01:22:35,041 --> 01:22:37,875
do. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Tons of great

701
01:22:37,875 --> 01:22:40,125
questions. Even just going from coastal

702
01:22:40,125 --> 01:22:43,500
down that deep. How did they take the

703
01:22:43,500 --> 01:22:45,541
pressure like the pressure must be

704
01:22:45,541 --> 01:22:47,291
immense at that point? Like, how did it

705
01:22:47,291 --> 01:22:48,500
not just like how did they not just

706
01:22:48,500 --> 01:22:50,458
implode as they went down? Well, if you

707
01:22:50,458 --> 01:22:52,083
think about all the contricthins, they

708
01:22:52,083 --> 01:22:54,416
lack a swim bladder. They all rely on the

709
01:22:54,416 --> 01:22:57,208
oily livers. So in a way you could use

710
01:22:57,208 --> 01:22:58,916
the term and say they're somewhat pre

711
01:22:58,916 --> 01:23:00,458
adapted to be able to

712
01:23:00,458 --> 01:23:01,416
move into deep waters.

713
01:23:01,458 --> 01:23:03,541
Because they lack those airfield cavities

714
01:23:03,541 --> 01:23:06,083
and the reliance on a swim bladder. So it

715
01:23:06,083 --> 01:23:09,625
does give the the them the ability

716
01:23:09,625 --> 01:23:11,375
they're already essentially pre adapted

717
01:23:11,375 --> 01:23:16,000
to to go deeper and find that refuge. But

718
01:23:16,000 --> 01:23:18,416
they're like like, cardinalogenous

719
01:23:18,416 --> 01:23:20,750
skeleton wouldn't just implode as well

720
01:23:20,750 --> 01:23:22,166
with the pressure. Actually, it might

721
01:23:22,166 --> 01:23:23,666
give them a more of an advantage because

722
01:23:23,666 --> 01:23:25,875
it's far more flexible. You know, it

723
01:23:25,875 --> 01:23:27,958
doesn't face the same kind of stresses

724
01:23:27,958 --> 01:23:30,125
that bone faces. Actually, bone is far

725
01:23:30,125 --> 01:23:30,416
more important when you're in shallow.

726
01:23:31,416 --> 01:23:33,666
Or in fact, even terrestrial environments

727
01:23:33,666 --> 01:23:37,208
where you need bone because you need bone

728
01:23:37,208 --> 01:23:38,791
to be more weight bearing in the

729
01:23:38,791 --> 01:23:40,375
terrestrial environment and also needs to

730
01:23:40,375 --> 01:23:42,583
be able to repair itself, which is a key

731
01:23:42,583 --> 01:23:44,166
feature bone in the evolution of bone,

732
01:23:44,375 --> 01:23:46,000
particularly for the terrestrial ones

733
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:49,000
animals. But if you're a marine animal

734
01:23:49,000 --> 01:23:51,416
and effectively look at marine, well, the

735
01:23:51,416 --> 01:23:53,041
fish, if we think about fish, their bones

736
01:23:53,041 --> 01:23:54,041
are very slender and

737
01:23:54,041 --> 01:23:55,875
thin and mostly a cellular.

738
01:23:57,416 --> 01:24:00,583
Yeah, so so so with so it's interesting

739
01:24:00,583 --> 01:24:01,500
today because you notice I see

740
01:24:01,500 --> 01:24:04,000
particularly one of the I guess more

741
01:24:04,000 --> 01:24:05,541
positive things with social media, you

742
01:24:05,541 --> 01:24:06,500
see people getting a little more

743
01:24:06,500 --> 01:24:08,625
interested in go sharks now versus

744
01:24:08,625 --> 01:24:10,541
before. And that's if there's one

745
01:24:10,541 --> 01:24:11,875
positive, maybe I don't know if a social

746
01:24:11,875 --> 01:24:13,708
media had anything to do with it. But I

747
01:24:13,708 --> 01:24:14,416
definitely see more people.

748
01:24:14,458 --> 01:24:17,125
It literally was like a cult because it

749
01:24:17,125 --> 01:24:20,750
was basically you, me and a couple of our

750
01:24:20,750 --> 01:24:23,833
students for a while was pretty much

751
01:24:23,833 --> 01:24:26,500
pretty much it. We got I think that our

752
01:24:26,500 --> 01:24:28,375
one big recruit is Jenny Camper, who is a

753
01:24:28,375 --> 01:24:30,875
former student of mine who did a few

754
01:24:30,875 --> 01:24:32,416
who's done several with both you and I.

755
01:24:32,458 --> 01:24:35,000
Now she's like completely like the

756
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:38,500
princess of go sharks now with all the

757
01:24:38,500 --> 01:24:42,375
species she's done and good. Good. Good.

758
01:24:42,375 --> 01:24:44,375
She's co-author co-author with us. But

759
01:24:44,375 --> 01:24:46,041
that's kind of it is kind of interesting.

760
01:24:46,250 --> 01:24:48,708
Do you what you're sort of feeling how

761
01:24:48,708 --> 01:24:50,000
why people may be getting

762
01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:51,083
more interest in the go sharks?

763
01:24:51,875 --> 01:24:54,708
I I do think social media has played a

764
01:24:54,708 --> 01:24:57,500
big role. You know, I mean people just

765
01:24:57,500 --> 01:24:59,958
scroll through they suddenly see a

766
01:24:59,958 --> 01:25:03,041
picture that they get interested to hear

767
01:25:03,041 --> 01:25:04,708
the word go shark and I like what the

768
01:25:04,708 --> 01:25:06,500
heck I gotta see what that is, you know,

769
01:25:07,041 --> 01:25:09,875
and so that has been one of the great

770
01:25:09,875 --> 01:25:11,750
things because you know within minutes

771
01:25:11,750 --> 01:25:13,125
you can get a lot of information out

772
01:25:13,125 --> 01:25:15,125
there and pictures and little stories.

773
01:25:15,458 --> 01:25:17,500
I mean, Dave, what you're doing with your

774
01:25:17,500 --> 01:25:19,166
little Instagram, you know, new pictures

775
01:25:19,166 --> 01:25:21,333
all the time and people see that they're

776
01:25:21,333 --> 01:25:23,000
just like, wow, that's a cool thing. You

777
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:24,625
know, you're really getting people

778
01:25:24,625 --> 01:25:27,250
inspired to see and want to know more of

779
01:25:27,250 --> 01:25:29,083
them. You see that I know when I see

780
01:25:29,083 --> 01:25:30,250
someone Instagram. I'm like, I gotta

781
01:25:30,250 --> 01:25:32,791
learn more. I'll go Google it or I'll go

782
01:25:32,791 --> 01:25:34,458
look up a paper. I'll

783
01:25:34,458 --> 01:25:35,333
I'll find more information.

784
01:25:36,416 --> 01:25:38,458
Yeah, I found I've told this story

785
01:25:38,458 --> 01:25:40,125
before, but I found when I started using

786
01:25:40,125 --> 01:25:43,291
go shark versus ratfish or chimera, it

787
01:25:43,291 --> 01:25:46,875
just exploded on social versus. Yeah, it

788
01:25:46,875 --> 01:25:49,333
just when you say go if I give a talk to

789
01:25:49,333 --> 01:25:51,333
you probably see this too. If I give a

790
01:25:51,333 --> 01:25:53,333
talk to a general audience and I say go

791
01:25:53,333 --> 01:25:55,916
shark, everybody lights up. If I say

792
01:25:55,916 --> 01:25:58,375
ratfish or if I say ratfish or chimera,

793
01:25:58,375 --> 01:26:00,416
it's just blank stares. Yeah, yeah.

794
01:26:01,416 --> 01:26:05,041
Thursday, Friday

795
01:26:05,041 --> 01:26:25,625
Oregon came out was on the cover of science

796
01:26:25,625 --> 01:26:26,833
and had to do with shark

797
01:26:26,833 --> 01:26:29,000
liver oil fisheries globally.

798
01:26:29,375 --> 01:26:30,333
This was on the cover of science.

799
01:26:30,916 --> 01:26:32,458
The day before that came out,

800
01:26:32,750 --> 01:26:35,000
I had a new species of go shark described

801
01:26:35,208 --> 01:26:37,666
from one specimen in the Adam and sea.

802
01:26:38,708 --> 01:26:41,208
That thing exploded on social media,

803
01:26:41,833 --> 01:26:42,500
whereas the science

804
01:26:42,500 --> 01:26:44,625
thing, almost nothing.

805
01:26:44,625 --> 01:26:46,208
Got no traction at all, even though

806
01:26:46,958 --> 01:26:48,541
my university was pushing it,

807
01:26:48,541 --> 01:26:49,708
everybody's going like, wow, you can

808
01:26:49,708 --> 01:26:50,958
science magazine cover.

809
01:26:51,625 --> 01:26:52,083
Very little.

810
01:26:52,541 --> 01:26:54,125
I got traction on that for

811
01:26:54,125 --> 01:26:55,208
like the next six months.

812
01:26:55,750 --> 01:26:56,625
And then in six months,

813
01:26:56,625 --> 01:26:57,375
the next thing happened

814
01:26:57,375 --> 01:26:58,583
was you and I had a paper

815
01:26:58,583 --> 01:27:00,458
come out with Brit and Jamie

816
01:27:00,458 --> 01:27:02,208
on a new long nose

817
01:27:02,208 --> 01:27:04,708
spook fish that took off

818
01:27:04,708 --> 01:27:06,250
and went like wildfire.

819
01:27:06,666 --> 01:27:08,708
So like those two things

820
01:27:08,708 --> 01:27:11,541
last year out shine publicly,

821
01:27:12,250 --> 01:27:13,583
a paper on like say science,

822
01:27:13,583 --> 01:27:14,916
which outside a small

823
01:27:14,916 --> 01:27:16,125
community, nobody reads.

824
01:27:16,541 --> 01:27:17,875
Yeah, but it's the

825
01:27:17,875 --> 01:27:19,500
premier journal in science.

826
01:27:19,750 --> 01:27:20,416
You know, it is.

827
01:27:20,791 --> 01:27:21,791
Yeah, exactly.

828
01:27:22,458 --> 01:27:23,041
Yeah, it's definitely

829
01:27:23,041 --> 01:27:24,375
a feat as a scientist.

830
01:27:24,375 --> 01:27:26,750
I think you're just looking at audience

831
01:27:26,750 --> 01:27:28,541
and who's listening to what

832
01:27:28,541 --> 01:27:29,833
and who's watching what.

833
01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:32,791
And obviously like, I think just the way,

834
01:27:32,791 --> 01:27:34,041
I think you're right, Dominic.

835
01:27:34,041 --> 01:27:38,083
I think the way people are consuming,

836
01:27:38,916 --> 01:27:39,500
you know, just

837
01:27:39,500 --> 01:27:41,333
everything that's happening in,

838
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:44,250
just in the, like online.

839
01:27:44,583 --> 01:27:45,708
And you see like this really

840
01:27:45,708 --> 01:27:47,208
interesting looking animal.

841
01:27:47,625 --> 01:27:48,958
Some people may think it's ugly.

842
01:27:48,958 --> 01:27:50,250
Some people think it's really cool.

843
01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:52,458
You're starting to see a lot of deep,

844
01:27:52,458 --> 01:27:53,833
especially deep sea things.

845
01:27:53,833 --> 01:27:54,416
People are really

846
01:27:54,416 --> 01:27:55,750
curious into the deep sea.

847
01:27:56,291 --> 01:27:58,375
So any animal that comes up that's alien

848
01:27:58,375 --> 01:27:59,958
looking or that's, you know,

849
01:27:59,958 --> 01:28:01,750
not like what you would normally expect.

850
01:28:02,250 --> 01:28:03,041
People are just like, Oh

851
01:28:03,041 --> 01:28:04,166
my gosh, like what is this?

852
01:28:04,166 --> 01:28:05,500
I need to find out everything about it.

853
01:28:05,500 --> 01:28:07,833
And I think that's really nice because it

854
01:28:07,833 --> 01:28:10,041
opens up that access to,

855
01:28:10,375 --> 01:28:12,750
to everybody who has social media to look

856
01:28:12,750 --> 01:28:14,416
at this and find out more.

857
01:28:14,416 --> 01:28:15,250
I think it's really great.

858
01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:16,208
Yeah.

859
01:28:16,625 --> 01:28:18,750
So I got to deviate for a minute here and

860
01:28:18,750 --> 01:28:20,333
have you tell us a little bit about

861
01:28:20,416 --> 01:28:22,333
your, your wool, your wool business.

862
01:28:24,458 --> 01:28:24,625
Yeah.

863
01:28:26,375 --> 01:28:27,500
How did that all start?

864
01:28:28,333 --> 01:28:30,375
Well, you know, I don't, I'm

865
01:28:30,375 --> 01:28:32,083
not just all about ghost sharks.

866
01:28:32,083 --> 01:28:33,500
I have another life too.

867
01:28:33,500 --> 01:28:34,625
I do a lot of other things.

868
01:28:36,125 --> 01:28:37,541
But yeah, well, I live in

869
01:28:37,541 --> 01:28:38,708
beautiful Lancaster County.

870
01:28:38,708 --> 01:28:39,458
I put in a plug for

871
01:28:39,458 --> 01:28:40,500
Lancaster County, Pennsylvania.

872
01:28:40,791 --> 01:28:41,458
It's beautiful.

873
01:28:41,666 --> 01:28:42,250
I never thought I would

874
01:28:42,250 --> 01:28:43,333
end up here, but I love it.

875
01:28:43,791 --> 01:28:44,875
I shouldn't say that too much though.

876
01:28:44,875 --> 01:28:46,333
Then everybody will want to live here.

877
01:28:46,375 --> 01:28:47,500
No, don't live here.

878
01:28:49,166 --> 01:28:49,833
Don't move here.

879
01:28:50,916 --> 01:28:53,916
So I'm very fortunate to my husband and I

880
01:28:53,916 --> 01:28:56,416
have some land and in Lancaster County,

881
01:28:56,416 --> 01:28:57,500
we really value our farmland.

882
01:28:58,333 --> 01:28:58,791
We have a lot of

883
01:28:58,791 --> 01:28:59,875
programs to preserve farmland.

884
01:29:00,125 --> 01:29:01,958
And when we saw that the farmer who we're

885
01:29:01,958 --> 01:29:02,750
very good friends with,

886
01:29:02,750 --> 01:29:04,875
who farms right next to us

887
01:29:04,875 --> 01:29:07,166
was selling his land, we,

888
01:29:07,250 --> 01:29:09,125
we talked to him and said, we don't want

889
01:29:09,125 --> 01:29:09,833
you to sell that land.

890
01:29:10,375 --> 01:29:11,500
So we bought it from him.

891
01:29:11,500 --> 01:29:13,208
And so now we're stuck with 12 acres.

892
01:29:13,208 --> 01:29:14,541
What the heck do you do with 12 acres?

893
01:29:15,041 --> 01:29:15,791
Because we're not farmers.

894
01:29:16,625 --> 01:29:18,458
So we did a little research and I was

895
01:29:18,458 --> 01:29:20,041
really, I mean, a big kick to like,

896
01:29:20,291 --> 01:29:21,916
keep the land more natural.

897
01:29:21,916 --> 01:29:23,083
I don't want to see all these pesticides.

898
01:29:23,458 --> 01:29:24,750
I don't want to see a lot of herbicides

899
01:29:24,750 --> 01:29:26,000
and things on the land.

900
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:29,708
So I looked up, I was thinking about

901
01:29:29,708 --> 01:29:32,750
grain growing some like native wheat,

902
01:29:32,750 --> 01:29:33,541
but that's really hard

903
01:29:33,541 --> 01:29:34,500
to harvest and process.

904
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:35,875
So we landed on sheep.

905
01:29:36,375 --> 01:29:38,458
We landed on sheep because sheep don't,

906
01:29:38,833 --> 01:29:41,458
they have small hooves and they don't.

907
01:29:41,458 --> 01:29:42,000
So they don't.

908
01:29:42,000 --> 01:29:43,375
And then when they bite, they just, they

909
01:29:43,375 --> 01:29:44,958
don't have teeth on both their jaws.

910
01:29:45,125 --> 01:29:45,833
So they just kind of

911
01:29:45,833 --> 01:29:46,916
tear the grass, you know.

912
01:29:47,666 --> 01:29:50,625
And so they don't ruin the fields.

913
01:29:50,833 --> 01:29:51,916
The fields stay very, very nice.

914
01:29:51,916 --> 01:29:52,750
And they walk around and

915
01:29:52,750 --> 01:29:54,500
they poop and they fertilize it.

916
01:29:54,833 --> 01:29:56,500
And then all this beautiful hay and grass

917
01:29:56,500 --> 01:29:58,291
grows and we harvest that and we feed

918
01:29:58,291 --> 01:29:59,250
that to them and stuff.

919
01:29:59,541 --> 01:30:00,375
So they're really cute.

920
01:30:00,916 --> 01:30:02,000
And then we shear

921
01:30:02,000 --> 01:30:03,000
them, but they're merino.

922
01:30:03,208 --> 01:30:04,791
So they're not, they're a wool sheep.

923
01:30:05,125 --> 01:30:06,000
I've learned a lot about sheep.

924
01:30:06,458 --> 01:30:08,083
You have wool sheep, you have

925
01:30:08,083 --> 01:30:08,833
multi-purpose sheep.

926
01:30:09,791 --> 01:30:12,708
And so I take care of

927
01:30:12,708 --> 01:30:14,625
them and we harvest the wool.

928
01:30:14,625 --> 01:30:15,541
We have a really small flock.

929
01:30:15,583 --> 01:30:17,250
So we harvest the wool and we sell

930
01:30:17,250 --> 01:30:19,708
primarily to hand spinners who are

931
01:30:19,708 --> 01:30:21,000
looking for merino fleeces.

932
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:24,083
So, you know, specialty wool for people

933
01:30:24,083 --> 01:30:25,375
who want a really nice fleece.

934
01:30:25,375 --> 01:30:26,916
And so, so that's, that's

935
01:30:26,916 --> 01:30:28,041
what I do in my spare time.

936
01:30:28,541 --> 01:30:29,458
So how is it?

937
01:30:29,833 --> 01:30:33,500
So how did being a biologist, you know,

938
01:30:33,625 --> 01:30:36,375
studying ghost sharks help you with

939
01:30:36,375 --> 01:30:39,791
understanding how to raise sheep and how

940
01:30:39,791 --> 01:30:40,625
to take care of sheep?

941
01:30:41,416 --> 01:30:42,583
That's really a good question.

942
01:30:43,333 --> 01:30:45,791
You know, I think someone who gets into

943
01:30:45,791 --> 01:30:47,250
biology and I think when I got into

944
01:30:47,250 --> 01:30:49,750
biology, that was when I was first

945
01:30:49,750 --> 01:30:50,791
getting my PhD, that was

946
01:30:50,791 --> 01:30:51,666
one of the things I realized.

947
01:30:51,666 --> 01:30:54,916
It's like I've now achieved this, the

948
01:30:54,916 --> 01:30:56,875
ultimate degree, the

949
01:30:56,875 --> 01:30:58,916
ultimate recognition as a biologist.

950
01:30:59,625 --> 01:31:01,833
And it and I said that opens doors.

951
01:31:02,125 --> 01:31:03,666
Now, I could decide I

952
01:31:03,666 --> 01:31:04,666
wanted to study plants.

953
01:31:04,666 --> 01:31:06,375
I have the credentials

954
01:31:06,375 --> 01:31:07,875
to do anything in biology.

955
01:31:08,333 --> 01:31:10,125
And I think when you approach it that way

956
01:31:10,125 --> 01:31:11,958
and say, I'm not just a ghost shark

957
01:31:11,958 --> 01:31:15,541
scientist that you can you open your

958
01:31:15,541 --> 01:31:17,666
world to all sorts of things in biology

959
01:31:17,666 --> 01:31:19,166
like and anything in

960
01:31:19,166 --> 01:31:20,541
biology that I'm curious about.

961
01:31:20,541 --> 01:31:21,250
I'm interested in.

962
01:31:21,250 --> 01:31:23,125
And I now have the skills to

963
01:31:23,125 --> 01:31:24,416
go and learn about and do that.

964
01:31:24,708 --> 01:31:25,750
I mean, I also serve on the

965
01:31:25,750 --> 01:31:27,458
board of a local organic farm.

966
01:31:28,000 --> 01:31:29,125
And so what did I know

967
01:31:29,125 --> 01:31:30,000
about organic farming?

968
01:31:30,000 --> 01:31:31,875
But now I'm talking about harvesting and

969
01:31:31,875 --> 01:31:34,291
seeds and all kinds of stuff, you know,

970
01:31:35,083 --> 01:31:36,875
and it's an organic farm that serves the

971
01:31:36,875 --> 01:31:38,083
intellectually and development.

972
01:31:51,416 --> 01:31:57,250
And you might not be able to grow up with

973
01:31:57,250 --> 01:31:57,541
them all through their

974
01:31:57,541 --> 01:31:58,000
soils or other types of

975
01:31:58,000 --> 01:31:59,916
And so you learn some of

976
01:31:59,916 --> 01:32:00,000
the things you
need to l

977
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:01,916
You start by learning the horrible part and with a place like squares as your whole side right here,

978
01:32:01,916 --> 01:32:02,666
how it helps cur Vehicle's

979
01:32:03,708 --> 01:32:06,250
So what do you think about that?

980
01:32:06,291 --> 01:32:08,250
Oh my gosh, Dave, I'm so excited.

981
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:10,541
I mean, I have to tell

982
01:32:10,541 --> 01:32:11,541
you, I know you knew this,

983
01:32:11,541 --> 01:32:13,125
but we talked, but I

984
01:32:13,125 --> 01:32:14,500
always had it on my bucket list.

985
01:32:14,500 --> 01:32:15,958
That was like, to me, the

986
01:32:15,958 --> 01:32:18,333
penultimate moment in my career

987
01:32:18,333 --> 01:32:19,458
is gonna write this book.

988
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:21,208
And I had drafted it,

989
01:32:21,208 --> 01:32:23,500
like in 2005, you know,

990
01:32:23,500 --> 01:32:24,666
I had drafts of, you

991
01:32:24,666 --> 01:32:25,500
know, books and papers

992
01:32:25,500 --> 01:32:26,208
I was gonna write.

993
01:32:26,583 --> 01:32:28,166
And a lot of things change in life.

994
01:32:28,166 --> 01:32:29,041
I never really got down

995
01:32:29,041 --> 01:32:31,166
to pouring myself into it.

996
01:32:31,166 --> 01:32:32,500
So when you, you know, I don't know,

997
01:32:32,541 --> 01:32:36,750
I've got this idea and

998
01:32:36,750 --> 01:32:37,666
you want to jump on board?

999
01:32:37,875 --> 01:32:39,041
I was like, Oh my gosh, yes.

1000
01:32:39,541 --> 01:32:42,791
So, so yeah, I think it's great.

1001
01:32:42,791 --> 01:32:44,875
And I'm just so honored to be working

1002
01:32:44,875 --> 01:32:46,500
with like the four of us,

1003
01:32:46,500 --> 01:32:48,833
like the experts on Go Sharks.

1004
01:32:49,208 --> 01:32:50,541
You, me, Jenny and Britt.

1005
01:32:51,000 --> 01:32:53,333
We bring so much to the table because all

1006
01:32:53,333 --> 01:32:54,541
of us have found our careers

1007
01:32:54,541 --> 01:32:56,291
in slightly different areas.

1008
01:32:57,083 --> 01:32:58,375
So I just feel like this is,

1009
01:32:58,666 --> 01:33:00,000
you know, I mean, we're gonna,

1010
01:33:00,291 --> 01:33:00,500
it book is advertised as well.

1011
01:33:00,500 --> 01:33:00,583
It is the first book. But it is the first book. And I think we're gonna have
to get to the table. And I think we're gonna have to get to the table.

1012
01:33:00,583 --> 01:33:01,875
The book is advertised as well.

1013
01:33:01,875 --> 01:33:03,541
It is the first book on Go Sharks and

1014
01:33:03,541 --> 01:33:04,125
it's going to be the most

1015
01:33:04,125 --> 01:33:04,916
comprehensive and

1016
01:33:04,916 --> 01:33:06,083
complete book on Go Sharks.

1017
01:33:06,333 --> 01:33:09,583
But that is, it is really true because

1018
01:33:09,583 --> 01:33:10,666
we've got everything.

1019
01:33:29,541 --> 01:33:30,000
And I think it's true because we've got a lot of people who are

1020
01:33:30,000 --> 01:33:31,500
doing the illustrations and Mark's, if

1021
01:33:31,500 --> 01:33:32,750
you've seen any of his work,

1022
01:33:32,750 --> 01:33:33,833
he's super detailed.

1023
01:33:34,458 --> 01:33:36,083
And he really gets in there and just puts

1024
01:33:36,083 --> 01:33:37,500
in an enormous amount of

1025
01:33:37,500 --> 01:33:38,208
work in that.

1026
01:33:38,666 --> 01:33:39,583
And I always tell people, if you're gonna

1027
01:33:39,583 --> 01:33:40,458
do this kind of book,

1028
01:33:40,458 --> 01:33:42,083
you got to have an illustrator like of

1029
01:33:42,083 --> 01:33:43,916
Mark's caliber to do that.

1030
01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:45,875
That's really gonna, we can write the

1031
01:33:45,875 --> 01:33:46,583
best stuff, but everybody's

1032
01:33:46,583 --> 01:33:47,375
gonna look at all the pictures.

1033
01:33:47,791 --> 01:33:49,291
Well, I guess I gotta say true.

1034
01:33:49,625 --> 01:33:51,458
Many people will just buy this book to

1035
01:33:51,458 --> 01:33:52,625
look at the cool pictures.

1036
01:33:53,250 --> 01:33:54,625
Yeah, I hope they read it too.

1037
01:33:55,125 --> 01:33:55,500
But you're right.

1038
01:33:55,541 --> 01:33:57,458
I mean, this is a book to have just as

1039
01:33:57,458 --> 01:33:58,875
just to see the beautiful artwork

1040
01:33:58,875 --> 01:33:59,750
because it brings them to life.

1041
01:33:59,750 --> 01:34:02,000
So who do you think, who do you want, who

1042
01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:03,958
do you want to actually read

1043
01:34:03,958 --> 01:34:06,458
this book, look at the book, consume it

1044
01:34:06,458 --> 01:34:08,541
and treat it like Go

1045
01:34:08,541 --> 01:34:09,875
Shark Bible as it is?

1046
01:34:10,500 --> 01:34:10,750
Everybody.

1047
01:34:11,458 --> 01:34:14,416
No, my husband was asking me about this.

1048
01:34:14,416 --> 01:34:15,791
He's a biologist too, but he does

1049
01:34:15,791 --> 01:34:16,750
something totally different.

1050
01:34:16,750 --> 01:34:17,708
He's a biochemist.

1051
01:34:19,750 --> 01:34:22,791
I think prime, first and foremost, it

1052
01:34:22,791 --> 01:34:24,500
will be a lot of, there will be some

1053
01:34:24,541 --> 01:34:26,208
scientists, you know, that are

1054
01:34:26,208 --> 01:34:28,083
interested. But I think a lot of

1055
01:34:28,083 --> 01:34:30,875
enthusiasts like there's a huge crowd of

1056
01:34:30,875 --> 01:34:32,208
people that love like Shark Week.

1057
01:34:32,625 --> 01:34:34,458
This is really appealing to the people

1058
01:34:34,458 --> 01:34:36,000
who love Shark Week, who just are

1059
01:34:36,000 --> 01:34:37,750
fascinated with these creatures.

1060
01:34:38,708 --> 01:34:40,208
And I think people who just are

1061
01:34:40,208 --> 01:34:42,958
interested in natural history, you know,

1062
01:34:42,958 --> 01:34:44,500
the kind of people who go and say, I want

1063
01:34:44,500 --> 01:34:45,500
to get this plant book.

1064
01:34:45,500 --> 01:34:46,916
Look at these pictures or I want to get

1065
01:34:46,916 --> 01:34:48,083
this mushroom book because

1066
01:34:48,083 --> 01:34:48,500
I think mushrooms are cool.

1067
01:34:49,541 --> 01:34:52,375
It's going to be so I think this I think

1068
01:34:52,375 --> 01:34:53,625
it had it can appeal to

1069
01:34:53,625 --> 01:34:55,000
a broad, broad audience.

1070
01:34:55,000 --> 01:34:56,125
There's a lot of people out there who

1071
01:34:56,125 --> 01:34:58,250
just have from a very deep interest to

1072
01:34:58,250 --> 01:34:59,875
superficial interest, but people are

1073
01:34:59,875 --> 01:35:01,000
interested in science.

1074
01:35:01,958 --> 01:35:02,666
Yeah, I mean, yeah.

1075
01:35:03,333 --> 01:35:04,541
And really in the last over the last,

1076
01:35:04,541 --> 01:35:06,958
say, almost almost 125 years now, really

1077
01:35:06,958 --> 01:35:12,083
your 1995 monograph on on the chimeroid

1078
01:35:12,083 --> 01:35:13,875
fishes was really the

1079
01:35:13,875 --> 01:35:14,500
seminal work in this thing.

1080
01:35:14,541 --> 01:35:17,666
But unless you're into it like myself or

1081
01:35:17,666 --> 01:35:19,583
Britt or Jenny, the average

1082
01:35:19,583 --> 01:35:20,916
person is not going to read it.

1083
01:35:20,916 --> 01:35:22,791
But that's if you're but if you're a

1084
01:35:22,791 --> 01:35:24,125
young student out there looking to learn

1085
01:35:24,125 --> 01:35:26,833
about go sharks, Dominique Didier's 1995

1086
01:35:26,833 --> 01:35:29,875
publication, you can DM her and she'll

1087
01:35:29,875 --> 01:35:31,041
send you a link to it.

1088
01:35:31,291 --> 01:35:33,458
That is that that is really the the

1089
01:35:33,458 --> 01:35:35,833
seminal work in this group.

1090
01:35:36,041 --> 01:35:38,000
But this book, I think, because we've got

1091
01:35:38,000 --> 01:35:39,500
all the illustrations in there.

1092
01:35:39,541 --> 01:35:41,500
I mean, I'm hoping we're going to inspire

1093
01:35:41,500 --> 01:35:43,708
younger people, particularly to kind of

1094
01:35:43,708 --> 01:35:47,000
take up the mantle to want to like find

1095
01:35:47,000 --> 01:35:47,958
out more about go sharks

1096
01:35:47,958 --> 01:35:49,500
kind of push the envelope.

1097
01:35:50,208 --> 01:35:50,875
And, you know, I'll say

1098
01:35:50,875 --> 01:35:52,833
I'm proud of my PhD thesis.

1099
01:35:52,833 --> 01:35:56,208
And, you know, it's it's it is the work

1100
01:35:56,208 --> 01:35:57,500
other scientists will refer to.

1101
01:35:57,500 --> 01:35:59,250
But it isn't something you want to sit

1102
01:35:59,250 --> 01:36:01,000
down and read if you're just a lay person

1103
01:36:01,000 --> 01:36:01,833
or you're just interested.

1104
01:36:02,458 --> 01:36:04,166
So I really think we've done a great job

1105
01:36:04,166 --> 01:36:06,000
of distilling all this very technical

1106
01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:07,125
stuff into something that

1107
01:36:07,125 --> 01:36:09,500
people can read, relate to.

1108
01:36:09,541 --> 01:36:12,666
And see the pictures and understand it.

1109
01:36:13,208 --> 01:36:14,625
Right. And we tried to. And we did.

1110
01:36:14,625 --> 01:36:16,333
Right. We did try to. We we wrote this

1111
01:36:16,333 --> 01:36:17,041
with the intention for

1112
01:36:17,041 --> 01:36:18,625
the average lay person.

1113
01:36:18,875 --> 01:36:21,250
So it's not we get the points across, but

1114
01:36:21,250 --> 01:36:23,708
it's written. So the average person, you

1115
01:36:23,708 --> 01:36:25,000
don't have to be a technical person.

1116
01:36:25,000 --> 01:36:26,750
You don't have to be a scientist. There's

1117
01:36:26,750 --> 01:36:28,833
not a lot of jargon used. Right. We do

1118
01:36:28,833 --> 01:36:29,958
like everyday language.

1119
01:36:30,500 --> 01:36:31,958
Yeah. If there's some word we use, we

1120
01:36:31,958 --> 01:36:33,500
explain what it means. Yeah.

1121
01:36:33,541 --> 01:36:35,416
And then we try to and we try to keep it

1122
01:36:35,416 --> 01:36:37,500
that way. The whole it was it's it's it's

1123
01:36:37,500 --> 01:36:38,875
a it's a type of book we want

1124
01:36:38,875 --> 01:36:41,125
the average person to pick up.

1125
01:36:41,333 --> 01:36:42,500
Just somebody who might has an interest

1126
01:36:42,500 --> 01:36:44,166
in these things. They may not go into

1127
01:36:44,166 --> 01:36:46,333
marine biology or fishes, but they might

1128
01:36:46,333 --> 01:36:48,125
have a curiosity or an interest in them.

1129
01:36:48,125 --> 01:36:49,458
And so that's what we're really hoping to

1130
01:36:49,458 --> 01:36:51,541
do to do with the book.

1131
01:36:52,041 --> 01:36:54,416
When we learn about these animals, we

1132
01:36:54,416 --> 01:36:55,708
learn about what they look like, their

1133
01:36:55,708 --> 01:36:57,500
features and what makes them so special.

1134
01:36:57,541 --> 01:37:01,208
A lot of people are wondering, like, you

1135
01:37:01,208 --> 01:37:02,708
know, I know we don't know a ton of

1136
01:37:02,708 --> 01:37:04,791
information on their ecology or their

1137
01:37:04,791 --> 01:37:06,916
conservation status, but, you know, some

1138
01:37:06,916 --> 01:37:07,458
people are probably

1139
01:37:07,458 --> 01:37:08,875
wondering, like, they live in the deep.

1140
01:37:08,875 --> 01:37:10,583
How do we know they're doing well? How do

1141
01:37:10,583 --> 01:37:13,000
we like each species that's in the book?

1142
01:37:13,458 --> 01:37:15,083
How do we know they're not doing well?

1143
01:37:15,583 --> 01:37:17,958
You know, there's a there's a lot of

1144
01:37:17,958 --> 01:37:19,708
stuff going on with, you know, just

1145
01:37:19,708 --> 01:37:21,625
looking at deep sea in general with deep

1146
01:37:21,625 --> 01:37:22,500
sea mining and things like that.

1147
01:37:22,541 --> 01:37:24,500
When when people look at these animals,

1148
01:37:24,791 --> 01:37:26,208
they start to fall in love with these

1149
01:37:26,208 --> 01:37:29,250
animals. What do you say to people who

1150
01:37:29,250 --> 01:37:30,541
want to make sure that

1151
01:37:30,541 --> 01:37:31,625
they're protecting them?

1152
01:37:32,083 --> 01:37:34,166
How can they go about making sure that

1153
01:37:34,166 --> 01:37:35,375
these animals are

1154
01:37:35,375 --> 01:37:36,583
protected in the deep sea?

1155
01:37:38,041 --> 01:37:39,833
Well, I think they need to treat it just

1156
01:37:39,833 --> 01:37:42,000
like all other animals in all other

1157
01:37:42,000 --> 01:37:43,250
environments in the deep sea.

1158
01:37:43,250 --> 01:37:44,500
You brought up some good things like we

1159
01:37:44,500 --> 01:37:46,791
hear about deep sea mining and drilling

1160
01:37:46,791 --> 01:37:48,791
and even the noise

1161
01:37:48,791 --> 01:37:49,500
pollution and other things.

1162
01:37:49,541 --> 01:37:53,541
I think just awareness, awareness that

1163
01:37:53,541 --> 01:37:58,916
all of these human activities need to be

1164
01:37:58,916 --> 01:38:01,958
conducted with the utmost of care and

1165
01:38:01,958 --> 01:38:07,166
thoughtfulness and regulation so that we

1166
01:38:07,166 --> 01:38:08,750
do protect them, not just the ghost

1167
01:38:08,750 --> 01:38:11,000
sharks, but the things that go to eat and

1168
01:38:11,000 --> 01:38:11,500
the things that eat go sharks.

1169
01:38:11,541 --> 01:38:14,416
And those ecosystems are very, very

1170
01:38:14,416 --> 01:38:17,708
fragile. And I don't think we completely

1171
01:38:17,708 --> 01:38:19,625
understand how fragile they are, which is

1172
01:38:19,625 --> 01:38:22,125
somewhat problematic, you know, often go

1173
01:38:22,125 --> 01:38:23,041
in and like, yeah, we

1174
01:38:23,041 --> 01:38:24,083
can just go in and do this.

1175
01:38:25,666 --> 01:38:27,875
So it is a constant balancing act. It's a

1176
01:38:27,875 --> 01:38:29,458
constant balancing act. On the one hand,

1177
01:38:29,666 --> 01:38:31,916
like I always say, I did have done some

1178
01:38:31,916 --> 01:38:33,708
consulting and involved in oil pipeline

1179
01:38:33,708 --> 01:38:34,958
that ended up not being

1180
01:38:34,958 --> 01:38:35,500
built, but doesn't matter.

1181
01:38:35,541 --> 01:38:38,083
And people say, well, how you know,

1182
01:38:38,083 --> 01:38:39,791
you're a conservationist, you love the

1183
01:38:39,791 --> 01:38:41,500
ocean. How can you do that? I said, if I

1184
01:38:41,500 --> 01:38:43,208
can do something to make this, I like to

1185
01:38:43,208 --> 01:38:45,500
drive my car. I've just submitted. I like

1186
01:38:45,500 --> 01:38:47,666
my car. I need gas for my car. This

1187
01:38:47,666 --> 01:38:48,500
wasn't that kind of gas

1188
01:38:48,500 --> 01:38:49,500
doesn't matter like heat.

1189
01:38:49,541 --> 01:38:52,541
But if I can make it done in a better

1190
01:38:52,541 --> 01:38:55,750
way, that I'm, I'm doing something, you

1191
01:38:55,750 --> 01:38:57,791
know, instead of if I can have a little

1192
01:38:57,791 --> 01:39:00,208
bit of a say, and I did, I had to say I

1193
01:39:00,208 --> 01:39:03,750
made them do more intensive environmental

1194
01:39:03,750 --> 01:39:05,583
inspections than would be required

1195
01:39:05,583 --> 01:39:06,708
because I stood up and

1196
01:39:06,708 --> 01:39:08,166
said, Yeah, to look at this.

1197
01:39:08,583 --> 01:39:10,708
So, you know, that's the best we can do.

1198
01:39:10,708 --> 01:39:12,333
We have to stand up and make those

1199
01:39:12,333 --> 01:39:14,500
little, little bitty decisions. We're not

1200
01:39:14,500 --> 01:39:15,291
going to change everything.

1201
01:39:15,541 --> 01:39:19,833
Yeah, for sure. Now you were able to

1202
01:39:19,833 --> 01:39:22,500
carve out a niche area with with go

1203
01:39:22,500 --> 01:39:24,375
sharks. We talked about the last episode.

1204
01:39:24,875 --> 01:39:26,833
We talked a little bit this episode that

1205
01:39:26,833 --> 01:39:28,875
what what got you interested in it and so

1206
01:39:28,875 --> 01:39:30,708
forth, even though, you know, wasn't your

1207
01:39:30,708 --> 01:39:32,166
first it wasn't love at first sight,

1208
01:39:32,166 --> 01:39:33,500
let's just say, but you got to

1209
01:39:33,500 --> 01:39:34,500
know like the curious things.

1210
01:39:34,541 --> 01:39:38,000
There are a lot of long young scientists

1211
01:39:38,000 --> 01:39:39,458
who are listening to this, whether

1212
01:39:39,458 --> 01:39:41,500
they're shark scientists or, you know,

1213
01:39:41,500 --> 01:39:43,708
marine biologists or people who do

1214
01:39:43,708 --> 01:39:46,041
biology on the on land and wildlife

1215
01:39:46,041 --> 01:39:48,375
biology. What would you recommend? Would

1216
01:39:48,375 --> 01:39:50,500
you recommend like looking at a specific animal and really niching down?

1217
01:39:50,541 --> 01:39:54,375
Like I know Dave is a big proponent of

1218
01:39:54,375 --> 01:39:56,708
it, but since you you went through it,

1219
01:39:56,708 --> 01:39:59,041
like right at the beginning, I know

1220
01:39:59,041 --> 01:40:01,375
you've studied other animals since, but

1221
01:40:01,375 --> 01:40:03,666
like, would you recommend that as a good

1222
01:40:03,666 --> 01:40:07,166
career move is to find something that

1223
01:40:07,166 --> 01:40:08,500
hasn't really been studied, whether it's

1224
01:40:08,500 --> 01:40:10,583
an animal, an area that you can get

1225
01:40:10,583 --> 01:40:13,083
access to and then go study it?

1226
01:40:13,083 --> 01:40:13,500
Is that a benefit in this career?

1227
01:40:13,541 --> 01:40:18,625
I'd say I'd say there is some benefit to

1228
01:40:18,625 --> 01:40:20,500
being like the only one or being the

1229
01:40:20,500 --> 01:40:23,625
first one to do something. And so yeah, I

1230
01:40:23,625 --> 01:40:25,416
would say I would encourage people, you

1231
01:40:25,416 --> 01:40:26,875
know, find something that you're

1232
01:40:26,875 --> 01:40:28,833
passionate about. And if it is a specific

1233
01:40:28,833 --> 01:40:31,208
animal, if it's a specific ecosystem, if

1234
01:40:31,208 --> 01:40:34,000
it's a specific plant, if it's, you know,

1235
01:40:36,291 --> 01:40:40,416
kind of genetic process, I don't know,

1236
01:40:40,416 --> 01:40:41,958
but find what you're passionate about and

1237
01:40:41,958 --> 01:40:42,500
do it. And yes, if you, if you're passionate about it, you know, you're passionate about it.

1238
01:40:42,541 --> 01:40:45,083
And yes, if you because you're going to

1239
01:40:45,083 --> 01:40:46,708
make that niche, if you're the one that

1240
01:40:46,708 --> 01:40:48,250
wants to do it, and you're thinking

1241
01:40:48,250 --> 01:40:50,750
creatively about that, that's, and

1242
01:40:50,750 --> 01:40:52,916
because you're passionate, you will make

1243
01:40:52,916 --> 01:40:55,041
it happen for yourself, you'll find the

1244
01:40:55,041 --> 01:40:56,500
right, you'll find the opportunities.

1245
01:40:56,541 --> 01:41:01,250
And that's my other advice is really walk

1246
01:41:01,250 --> 01:41:03,666
through every open door, every

1247
01:41:03,666 --> 01:41:05,958
opportunity. And that is one thing I can

1248
01:41:05,958 --> 01:41:07,375
say when people say, oh, you've had this

1249
01:41:07,375 --> 01:41:08,583
amazing career, you've done all these

1250
01:41:08,583 --> 01:41:09,833
things and blah, blah, blah. It's because

1251
01:41:09,833 --> 01:41:11,375
I always took every

1252
01:41:11,375 --> 01:41:13,375
opportunity that came my way.

1253
01:41:13,916 --> 01:41:15,833
I jumped at it. And I think Dave, I think

1254
01:41:15,833 --> 01:41:17,083
you would say the same thing. You just

1255
01:41:17,083 --> 01:41:18,458
took every opportunity. Someone said,

1256
01:41:18,458 --> 01:41:20,291
hey, I have a chance for you to go on a

1257
01:41:20,291 --> 01:41:22,500
boat and fish for this and go on a

1258
01:41:22,500 --> 01:41:24,000
survey. Oh, sign me up.

1259
01:41:24,541 --> 01:41:27,458
Yeah, we have a chance for you to do this

1260
01:41:27,458 --> 01:41:29,833
meeting or write this paper or do I just

1261
01:41:29,833 --> 01:41:31,791
said, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna do it. Right.

1262
01:41:32,500 --> 01:41:34,333
And I see too many young people today.

1263
01:41:34,625 --> 01:41:36,208
And I'm gonna just lay this I see,

1264
01:41:36,208 --> 01:41:38,333
especially men and women, but they're

1265
01:41:38,333 --> 01:41:40,375
like, I don't want to leave my boyfriend

1266
01:41:40,541 --> 01:41:44,041
in a

1267
01:41:44,041 --> 01:41:48,291
You know, take every opportunity that all

1268
01:41:48,291 --> 01:41:50,083
the other opportunities will always be

1269
01:41:50,083 --> 01:41:52,833
there. Take every opportunity and go

1270
01:41:52,833 --> 01:41:54,375
because your life will go into directions

1271
01:41:54,375 --> 01:41:56,541
you've never expected and you look back

1272
01:41:56,541 --> 01:41:58,250
and I sure look back at my age now and

1273
01:41:58,250 --> 01:42:00,375
go, Wow, what a ride

1274
01:42:00,375 --> 01:42:01,375
and I'm still on that.

1275
01:42:03,041 --> 01:42:03,916
Exactly, exactly.

1276
01:42:04,916 --> 01:42:08,541
Yeah, you just hit it and I come back

1277
01:42:08,541 --> 01:42:10,333
to we talked earlier in this episode

1278
01:42:10,333 --> 01:42:11,666
and I tell people go

1279
01:42:11,666 --> 01:42:13,125
listen to this Jaws episode

1280
01:42:13,125 --> 01:42:14,250
we did a few months ago

1281
01:42:14,250 --> 01:42:15,541
with Lise and Atencen,

1282
01:42:15,541 --> 01:42:16,666
Greg Scholman, Chris

1283
01:42:16,666 --> 01:42:18,416
Lowe, and then now Dommie.

1284
01:42:18,791 --> 01:42:19,500
Every one of us from

1285
01:42:19,500 --> 01:42:20,625
that era was just like,

1286
01:42:21,541 --> 01:42:22,791
hey, what the hell, go for it.

1287
01:42:23,041 --> 01:42:23,291
Yeah.

1288
01:42:24,375 --> 01:42:25,750
There's nothing, there's no,

1289
01:42:26,250 --> 01:42:27,916
the rains are off man, just go do it.

1290
01:42:28,333 --> 01:42:30,416
And I think that if you do that,

1291
01:42:30,625 --> 01:42:31,875
you'll find your niche out there,

1292
01:42:31,875 --> 01:42:32,833
you'll find your passion.

1293
01:42:33,833 --> 01:42:34,916
And I mean, that's just

1294
01:42:34,916 --> 01:42:36,041
awesome advice, Dominique.

1295
01:42:36,375 --> 01:42:37,625
I just think that's really,

1296
01:42:38,375 --> 01:42:38,916
that's really what I

1297
01:42:38,916 --> 01:42:39,791
think a lot of the people,

1298
01:42:40,666 --> 01:42:41,250
people, the young people

1299
01:42:41,250 --> 01:42:42,375
particularly need to hear,

1300
01:42:42,375 --> 01:42:43,708
just like fricking go for it.

1301
01:42:43,708 --> 01:42:44,666
Don't worry, don't obsess.

1302
01:42:45,375 --> 01:42:46,875
I think it's like, don't obsess on like,

1303
01:42:47,708 --> 01:42:48,500
you know, getting into

1304
01:42:48,500 --> 01:42:50,125
this program or that program

1305
01:42:50,125 --> 01:42:52,041
because none of us from that

1306
01:42:52,041 --> 01:42:54,250
era had any grandiose plan,

1307
01:42:54,291 --> 01:42:55,583
like, oh, I'm going to go get a PhD.

1308
01:42:55,583 --> 01:42:57,000
And I'm going to, none of us did.

1309
01:42:57,000 --> 01:42:58,666
I still know how I, well,

1310
01:42:58,875 --> 01:43:00,000
I know how I got into my undergraduate.

1311
01:43:00,250 --> 01:43:02,541
I don't know if you knew this,

1312
01:43:02,541 --> 01:43:04,125
but I've told us a couple episodes,

1313
01:43:04,125 --> 01:43:05,375
but I only got into

1314
01:43:05,375 --> 01:43:06,958
like my university through,

1315
01:43:07,291 --> 01:43:08,833
through wrestling, college wrestling.

1316
01:43:08,833 --> 01:43:10,250
I got turned down academically.

1317
01:43:10,875 --> 01:43:12,750
I got in on a wrestling scholarship.

1318
01:43:13,291 --> 01:43:14,208
I got turned down.

1319
01:43:14,208 --> 01:43:15,458
The coach just, I got a rejection.

1320
01:43:15,666 --> 01:43:17,000
In fact, I got a rejection letter

1321
01:43:17,625 --> 01:43:18,916
and the coach called me that night

1322
01:43:18,916 --> 01:43:19,666
and asked her so on to

1323
01:43:19,666 --> 01:43:20,375
come and said, well, yeah,

1324
01:43:20,375 --> 01:43:21,333
I got a rejection letter.

1325
01:43:21,333 --> 01:43:22,166
You let us throw that away.

1326
01:43:22,166 --> 01:43:24,291
I'll send you the acceptance next week.

1327
01:43:24,291 --> 01:43:25,166
(all laughing)

1328
01:43:25,500 --> 01:43:26,791
That's literally how I got into.

1329
01:43:26,958 --> 01:43:28,583
Do whatever you can do to get in.

1330
01:43:28,625 --> 01:43:30,958
Yeah, and take whatever opportunities,

1331
01:43:31,250 --> 01:43:32,500
like you just said it, Dominique,

1332
01:43:32,750 --> 01:43:33,875
whatever opportunity, guy,

1333
01:43:34,208 --> 01:43:35,666
somebody hands you that opportunity,

1334
01:43:35,666 --> 01:43:36,791
like hell go for it.

1335
01:43:36,791 --> 01:43:37,166
What the hell?

1336
01:43:37,500 --> 01:43:38,333
Well, I have to

1337
01:43:38,333 --> 01:43:39,750
admit, I have to admit too,

1338
01:43:39,750 --> 01:43:41,375
like when I went back for my master's,

1339
01:43:41,375 --> 01:43:42,000
I didn't have the marks

1340
01:43:42,000 --> 01:43:43,000
to get into the university

1341
01:43:43,000 --> 01:43:43,916
for a master's.

1342
01:43:43,916 --> 01:43:45,041
So my professors like, look,

1343
01:43:45,625 --> 01:43:46,583
I want you to work for

1344
01:43:46,583 --> 01:43:47,666
me as a Marine technician

1345
01:43:47,666 --> 01:43:48,666
because that's what I just

1346
01:43:48,666 --> 01:43:50,125
done before my previous job.

1347
01:43:50,625 --> 01:43:52,000
And then you can do a makeup semester.

1348
01:43:52,250 --> 01:43:53,000
And then you show them,

1349
01:43:53,000 --> 01:43:54,000
you can do the work that you

1350
01:43:54,000 --> 01:43:55,041
need to do to get the marks

1351
01:43:55,041 --> 01:43:56,208
and then they'll let you in.

1352
01:43:56,208 --> 01:43:57,916
So I did one semester, makeup semester

1353
01:43:58,083 --> 01:43:59,375
while I worked as a technician.

1354
01:44:00,500 --> 01:44:01,750
And I got to go all around

1355
01:44:01,750 --> 01:44:03,416
Nova Scotia during that summer.

1356
01:44:03,708 --> 01:44:05,583
And I got kick ass marks.

1357
01:44:05,583 --> 01:44:06,375
So I was getting in

1358
01:44:06,375 --> 01:44:07,291
the 90s and they're like,

1359
01:44:07,291 --> 01:44:08,750
yeah, you get in no problem now.

1360
01:44:09,250 --> 01:44:11,958
And it was a bit of a pain

1361
01:44:11,958 --> 01:44:13,958
to have to do another semester

1362
01:44:13,958 --> 01:44:15,291
of undergraduate work.

1363
01:44:15,291 --> 01:44:18,500
But if you want to get into something

1364
01:44:18,750 --> 01:44:20,000
and you really want something,

1365
01:44:20,000 --> 01:44:21,916
and I had this opportunity to do it,

1366
01:44:22,500 --> 01:44:23,833
you go ahead and do it

1367
01:44:23,916 --> 01:44:24,875
because you never know when

1368
01:44:24,875 --> 01:44:25,875
you're gonna get those chances.

1369
01:44:26,125 --> 01:44:27,625
Those chances don't always come in.

1370
01:44:27,666 --> 01:44:28,625
And they may work out,

1371
01:44:28,625 --> 01:44:29,666
they may not work out.

1372
01:44:29,666 --> 01:44:30,666
And it may not be perfect,

1373
01:44:30,666 --> 01:44:31,750
but it's definitely

1374
01:44:31,750 --> 01:44:33,375
worthwhile checking them out,

1375
01:44:33,625 --> 01:44:34,916
especially when you're young

1376
01:44:34,916 --> 01:44:36,375
and you don't have a lot of

1377
01:44:36,375 --> 01:44:37,416
experience under your belt.

1378
01:44:37,875 --> 01:44:38,500
It's probably one of the

1379
01:44:38,500 --> 01:44:39,541
best things that you can do.

1380
01:44:40,208 --> 01:44:40,708
I think you just

1381
01:44:40,708 --> 01:44:42,125
touched on it too, Andrew,

1382
01:44:42,125 --> 01:44:43,541
is that it's kind of like

1383
01:44:43,541 --> 01:44:44,875
a personal responsibility.

1384
01:44:44,875 --> 01:44:45,625
If they give you that opportunity,

1385
01:44:46,458 --> 01:44:48,416
it's up to you to make the most of it.

1386
01:44:48,708 --> 01:44:48,833
Yeah.

1387
01:44:48,833 --> 01:44:50,666
It's not gonna be, if you didn't make it,

1388
01:44:50,666 --> 01:44:52,458
that wasn't on anybody but you.

1389
01:44:52,666 --> 01:44:54,125
But you had that chance. Exactly.

1390
01:44:54,125 --> 01:44:54,666
And I think that's,

1391
01:44:55,125 --> 01:44:56,208
I think particularly young people,

1392
01:44:57,083 --> 01:44:58,208
you have to approach it that way.

1393
01:44:58,208 --> 01:44:59,250
So nobody else, you don't make it,

1394
01:44:59,250 --> 01:45:00,416
it's not anybody else's fault.

1395
01:45:00,416 --> 01:45:01,250
It's up to you, the kind

1396
01:45:01,250 --> 01:45:02,208
of, it's in your hands,

1397
01:45:02,208 --> 01:45:03,708
to make it or break it.

1398
01:45:04,208 --> 01:45:04,750
And so.

1399
01:45:05,416 --> 01:45:06,666
It's just like the book

1400
01:45:07,000 --> 01:45:09,083
that you got presented with, Dominique.

1401
01:45:09,083 --> 01:45:10,125
You weren't sure how, when

1402
01:45:10,125 --> 01:45:11,166
you were gonna write your book.

1403
01:45:11,166 --> 01:45:11,833
Now you get to write

1404
01:45:11,833 --> 01:45:13,250
this book on ghost sharks

1405
01:45:13,458 --> 01:45:15,041
and you get to do it with

1406
01:45:15,041 --> 01:45:16,583
some amazing people as well.

1407
01:45:17,166 --> 01:45:17,916
And it's gonna be even

1408
01:45:17,916 --> 01:45:19,125
better than if I had,

1409
01:45:19,708 --> 01:45:20,791
what I had originally envisioned.

1410
01:45:21,125 --> 01:45:22,500
So this is fantastic. Right.

1411
01:45:23,083 --> 01:45:24,083
I just had one thing too.

1412
01:45:24,333 --> 01:45:25,375
Again, we'll have an episode later

1413
01:45:25,375 --> 01:45:26,041
and the book comes out.

1414
01:45:50,125 --> 01:45:56,333
And it's reallycreated me as a

1415
01:45:56,375 --> 01:45:58,000
Yeah, I hope everybody

1416
01:45:58,000 --> 01:45:59,583
enjoys the book when it comes out.

1417
01:46:00,041 --> 01:46:01,583
Oh yeah, it's gonna be awesome.

1418
01:46:01,583 --> 01:46:03,208
I can't wait to see it.

1419
01:46:03,208 --> 01:46:03,458
Talking about it.

1420
01:46:03,833 --> 01:46:04,375
So it's cool.

1421
01:46:05,000 --> 01:46:07,041
Well, Dominique, I want to thank you very

1422
01:46:07,041 --> 01:46:09,583
much for coming on today's episode.

1423
01:46:09,875 --> 01:46:11,625
And we're gonna have

1424
01:46:11,625 --> 01:46:12,541
to have you back sooner.

1425
01:46:12,541 --> 01:46:13,166
We can't wait four more

1426
01:46:13,166 --> 01:46:14,291
years to have you back on.

1427
01:46:14,500 --> 01:46:15,750
Okay, definitely.

1428
01:46:15,916 --> 01:46:18,041
You're invited when the book comes out,

1429
01:46:18,041 --> 01:46:19,458
we'll be back on for that episode.

1430
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:21,583
Yeah, love to chat about the book.

1431
01:46:21,583 --> 01:46:22,166
And hopefully, Britt

1432
01:46:22,166 --> 01:46:23,291
and Jenny can join us too.

1433
01:46:23,583 --> 01:46:24,166
Oh, that'd be awesome.

1434
01:46:24,875 --> 01:46:25,083
Absolutely, absolutely.

1435
01:46:25,458 --> 01:46:25,833
So what are the final

1436
01:46:25,833 --> 01:46:27,166
things you want to say?

1437
01:46:27,166 --> 01:46:27,666
Say to anybody?

1438
01:46:28,041 --> 01:46:29,916
I just want to say, I just want to remind

1439
01:46:29,916 --> 01:46:30,958
people, you know,

1440
01:46:30,958 --> 01:46:31,666
international ghost shark

1441
01:46:31,666 --> 01:46:32,583
date is coming up.

1442
01:46:32,916 --> 01:46:34,625
So make sure that you have got your

1443
01:46:34,625 --> 01:46:36,375
celebrations planned and

1444
01:46:36,375 --> 01:46:37,666
that you are ready to celebrate

1445
01:46:37,708 --> 01:46:39,666
appropriately October 30th,

1446
01:46:39,666 --> 01:46:41,000
international ghost shark day.

1447
01:46:41,791 --> 01:46:42,583
Bring it on.

1448
01:46:42,583 --> 01:46:42,791
Be sure.

1449
01:46:43,208 --> 01:46:44,541
Yeah, bring it on post your favorite

1450
01:46:44,541 --> 01:46:46,000
ghost shark on social media.

1451
01:46:46,583 --> 01:46:47,083
And we'll have it.

1452
01:46:47,083 --> 01:46:48,833
We'll have we'll have Dominique and eyes

1453
01:46:48,833 --> 01:46:50,208
and Britt and Jenny's

1454
01:46:50,208 --> 01:46:51,375
social media up there.

1455
01:46:51,666 --> 01:46:53,083
Post your favorite ghost shark and tell

1456
01:46:53,083 --> 01:46:55,208
us why you like it and tag and tag us.

1457
01:46:55,250 --> 01:46:56,041
We'll reach out.

1458
01:46:56,583 --> 01:46:57,666
Yeah, that'd be amazing.

1459
01:46:58,208 --> 01:46:58,416
Awesome.

1460
01:46:58,708 --> 01:47:00,000
Well, thank you so much, Dominique.

1461
01:47:00,000 --> 01:47:01,333
We really enjoyed having you on.

1462
01:47:01,333 --> 01:47:02,166
I can't wait to have you back.

1463
01:47:02,708 --> 01:47:03,125
Yeah, great.

1464
01:47:03,375 --> 01:47:03,958
Thanks, you guys.

1465
01:47:03,958 --> 01:47:04,416
It's been a blast.

1466
01:47:04,666 --> 01:47:05,041
Thank you.

1467
01:47:05,041 --> 01:47:06,625
Thank you, Dominique, for joining us on

1468
01:47:06,625 --> 01:47:07,208
today's episode of

1469
01:47:07,208 --> 01:47:09,125
the Beyond Jaws podcast.

1470
01:47:09,666 --> 01:47:11,500
Dave, are you going to buy a farm?

1471
01:47:11,833 --> 01:47:13,666
I know you had an aquaculture place.

1472
01:47:15,250 --> 01:47:16,125
I've been a farmer.

1473
01:47:16,625 --> 01:47:18,125
Yeah, I've been a farmer.

1474
01:47:18,125 --> 01:47:18,708
Yeah, I've been a

1475
01:47:18,708 --> 01:47:19,833
farmer and abalone farmer.

1476
01:47:20,083 --> 01:47:21,208
So I've been down that road.

1477
01:47:21,250 --> 01:47:23,250
I think I think my next thing I'm just

1478
01:47:23,250 --> 01:47:26,041
I'm gonna become like a a a a a a a a

1479
01:47:26,041 --> 01:47:29,000
full time documentary producer writer.

1480
01:47:29,416 --> 01:47:30,208
There you go.

1481
01:47:30,208 --> 01:47:31,208
It's very serious.

1482
01:47:31,208 --> 01:47:32,708
Oh, yeah, we've been doing it.

1483
01:47:32,708 --> 01:47:33,583
We've been doing it.

1484
01:47:33,583 --> 01:47:34,416
We've been doing the series

1485
01:47:34,416 --> 01:47:37,000
and and just a plug for that.

1486
01:47:37,000 --> 01:47:38,750
If you haven't caught episode four of

1487
01:47:38,750 --> 01:47:39,458
searching for lost

1488
01:47:39,458 --> 01:47:40,458
sharks, extinct your life.

1489
01:47:40,791 --> 01:47:42,000
Dominique's in that episode.

1490
01:47:42,208 --> 01:47:44,166
Yeah, I really hope you check it out

1491
01:47:44,166 --> 01:47:44,750
along with some of the

1492
01:47:44,750 --> 01:47:46,125
other Jaws generation people.

1493
01:47:46,208 --> 01:47:49,208
And I don't want to give it away, but

1494
01:47:49,208 --> 01:47:51,500
definitely check out the episode because

1495
01:47:51,500 --> 01:47:52,583
she is definitely one of the people

1496
01:47:52,583 --> 01:47:53,625
featured in that episode.

1497
01:47:54,458 --> 01:47:56,166
But yeah, I doing this book was just

1498
01:47:56,166 --> 01:47:57,166
phenomenal with her.

1499
01:47:57,166 --> 01:47:59,166
And we worked with one of my former

1500
01:47:59,166 --> 01:48:01,125
students, Jenny Kemper, who is also

1501
01:48:01,125 --> 01:48:04,250
mentored by Dominique as well.

1502
01:48:05,208 --> 01:48:06,833
And when Jenny came in there, she

1503
01:48:06,833 --> 01:48:08,083
wouldn't even think in taxonomy.

1504
01:48:08,083 --> 01:48:09,708
She was working on feeding ecology.

1505
01:48:10,000 --> 01:48:11,125
And the next thing you know, she's

1506
01:48:11,125 --> 01:48:13,583
becoming one of the rising stars in the

1507
01:48:13,583 --> 01:48:15,166
field of Condrecian taxonomy.

1508
01:48:15,208 --> 01:48:19,208
And so, yes, really awesome for me.

1509
01:48:19,208 --> 01:48:20,708
It's just being an adviser and stuff.

1510
01:48:20,708 --> 01:48:22,750
It's really cool to see that, of course,

1511
01:48:22,750 --> 01:48:25,833
we got Britt Fanucci, another rising star

1512
01:48:25,833 --> 01:48:27,375
in the field involved as well.

1513
01:48:27,375 --> 01:48:28,750
She's one of the few other people really

1514
01:48:28,750 --> 01:48:29,416
got into deep sea

1515
01:48:29,416 --> 01:48:31,000
sharks, especially go sharks.

1516
01:48:31,583 --> 01:48:32,291
So you literally got the

1517
01:48:32,291 --> 01:48:34,458
dream team on this book.

1518
01:48:35,208 --> 01:48:36,583
And we'll talk a little more about the

1519
01:48:36,583 --> 01:48:38,000
book when it comes out next year.

1520
01:48:38,541 --> 01:48:40,125
But I just it was really great having her

1521
01:48:40,125 --> 01:48:42,250
on the show and talking about her her

1522
01:48:42,250 --> 01:48:43,875
little side hustle, as you said,

1523
01:48:45,083 --> 01:48:46,291
with the sheep and

1524
01:48:46,291 --> 01:48:47,458
farming and everything else.

1525
01:48:47,875 --> 01:48:50,208
And I thought she shared some stories.

1526
01:48:50,208 --> 01:48:51,375
I don't think she shared last time about

1527
01:48:51,375 --> 01:48:53,625
how she got into graduate school and

1528
01:48:53,625 --> 01:48:55,708
everything, which most of the people from

1529
01:48:55,708 --> 01:48:57,500
my era, that seems to be the story.

1530
01:48:58,000 --> 01:48:59,625
Interesting. You kind of blunder into it

1531
01:48:59,625 --> 01:49:00,833
like, hey, go to grad school.

1532
01:49:01,041 --> 01:49:01,791
Sure, I'll go.

1533
01:49:04,208 --> 01:49:05,541
So, yes.

1534
01:49:05,541 --> 01:49:07,291
And so I guess I emphasize that to the

1535
01:49:07,291 --> 01:49:09,875
young people listening is that it's not a

1536
01:49:09,875 --> 01:49:10,208
straight trajectory.

1537
01:49:10,250 --> 01:49:12,625
So don't feel discouraged or disappointed

1538
01:49:12,625 --> 01:49:14,541
if your career is kind of going.

1539
01:49:15,041 --> 01:49:15,583
Doesn't seem like it's

1540
01:49:15,583 --> 01:49:16,458
going in the right direction.

1541
01:49:16,458 --> 01:49:17,333
Just keep your eye on the

1542
01:49:17,333 --> 01:49:19,083
ball on where you want to be.

1543
01:49:19,583 --> 01:49:21,000
How you get there is that's

1544
01:49:21,000 --> 01:49:22,458
all the fun part is a journey.

1545
01:49:22,458 --> 01:49:24,166
It really is the fun part of the journey.

1546
01:49:24,166 --> 01:49:26,416
I think Dominique said that as well as I

1547
01:49:26,416 --> 01:49:27,875
guess just the journey.

1548
01:49:27,875 --> 01:49:29,083
It's the fun part, you

1549
01:49:29,083 --> 01:49:30,000
know, where you're going.

1550
01:49:30,250 --> 01:49:31,583
Just keep your eye on the ball.

1551
01:49:32,458 --> 01:49:33,875
Yeah, I mean, that's what it is, right?

1552
01:49:33,875 --> 01:49:36,000
You got to be in love with biology, you

1553
01:49:36,000 --> 01:49:37,375
know, whatever path you choose, whether

1554
01:49:37,375 --> 01:49:39,208
sharks, fish, whatever it might be.

1555
01:49:39,208 --> 01:49:40,875
Invertebrates, you got to

1556
01:49:40,875 --> 01:49:41,708
be in love with biology.

1557
01:49:41,708 --> 01:49:42,625
You got to get into it.

1558
01:49:42,625 --> 01:49:44,958
You got to immerse yourself into it and

1559
01:49:44,958 --> 01:49:46,541
then you'll find, you know, whatever

1560
01:49:46,541 --> 01:49:48,666
comes out of it, you will find it and

1561
01:49:48,666 --> 01:49:50,208
it'll it'll hit you and

1562
01:49:50,208 --> 01:49:51,916
you'll just be like enthralled.

1563
01:49:52,208 --> 01:49:54,416
And it just like Dominique is with, you

1564
01:49:54,416 --> 01:49:56,166
know, with with go sharks and just like

1565
01:49:56,166 --> 01:49:58,541
you are with finding law sharks, you

1566
01:49:58,541 --> 01:50:00,583
know, it's it may not be a specific

1567
01:50:00,583 --> 01:50:03,500
species or a specific type of species or

1568
01:50:03,500 --> 01:50:04,208
it could be a habitat for all.

1569
01:50:04,250 --> 01:50:06,708
You know, as long as I could, as long as

1570
01:50:06,708 --> 01:50:08,125
you are passionate every each and every

1571
01:50:08,125 --> 01:50:10,583
day, you say, OK, what am I going to do

1572
01:50:10,583 --> 01:50:13,291
today to advance the field or what can I

1573
01:50:13,291 --> 01:50:14,541
do today to make a contribution?

1574
01:50:14,541 --> 01:50:16,750
Even if it's little contributions here

1575
01:50:16,750 --> 01:50:18,708
and there, you can do that each and every

1576
01:50:18,708 --> 01:50:20,500
day and you feel good about yourself.

1577
01:50:20,500 --> 01:50:22,083
And I think one of the thing, Andrew, and

1578
01:50:22,083 --> 01:50:23,583
she really hit on this, I think was good

1579
01:50:23,583 --> 01:50:24,791
is like take whatever

1580
01:50:24,791 --> 01:50:26,833
opportunities are presented to you.

1581
01:50:26,958 --> 01:50:28,583
Yeah. And make the most of them.

1582
01:50:28,875 --> 01:50:29,916
Just, you know, when you're young,

1583
01:50:29,916 --> 01:50:31,833
grasswind, you should be open to like

1584
01:50:31,833 --> 01:50:32,208
learning everything you can.

1585
01:50:32,208 --> 01:50:35,083
And yeah, opportunity comes up. I'm going

1586
01:50:35,083 --> 01:50:36,041
to cruise for three

1587
01:50:36,041 --> 01:50:37,208
months. Great. I'm off.

1588
01:50:37,416 --> 01:50:37,625
Exactly.

1589
01:50:38,041 --> 01:50:39,958
Or just whatever and learn any skills you

1590
01:50:39,958 --> 01:50:41,875
can. But take advantage of opportunities

1591
01:50:41,875 --> 01:50:43,833
because you never know what doors those

1592
01:50:43,833 --> 01:50:45,250
opportunities are going to offer you.

1593
01:50:45,708 --> 01:50:46,083
Agreed.

1594
01:50:46,416 --> 01:50:47,500
Agreed advice from her.

1595
01:50:48,083 --> 01:50:50,416
Great advice. It was a great episode. It

1596
01:50:50,416 --> 01:50:51,958
was fun to do it to get

1597
01:50:51,958 --> 01:50:53,416
her on the podcast again.

1598
01:50:53,416 --> 01:50:54,000
So, Dominique, thank

1599
01:50:54,000 --> 01:50:55,750
you so much for coming on.

1600
01:50:55,750 --> 01:50:58,000
We can't wait to have you back on shortly

1601
01:50:58,000 --> 01:50:59,625
to talk about the book because that book

1602
01:50:59,625 --> 01:51:00,208
will be released soon.

1603
01:51:00,250 --> 01:51:03,875
We just don't have a date on it yet. We

1604
01:51:03,875 --> 01:51:05,500
don't even have pre-sale date yet, right?

1605
01:51:05,583 --> 01:51:06,541
We're waiting to hear back.

1606
01:51:06,750 --> 01:51:09,500
So we'll wait. We'll get it soon. And

1607
01:51:09,500 --> 01:51:11,166
we'll let you guys know once it's out

1608
01:51:11,166 --> 01:51:12,500
there because I highly recommend I know

1609
01:51:12,500 --> 01:51:14,000
the people who are listening to this.

1610
01:51:14,375 --> 01:51:16,000
The audience here will want to get this

1611
01:51:16,000 --> 01:51:17,666
book. I think it's going to be a great

1612
01:51:17,666 --> 01:51:19,916
one. I can't wait to read it and take a

1613
01:51:19,916 --> 01:51:21,875
look at those dando pictures because,

1614
01:51:21,875 --> 01:51:24,208
yeah, and don't make some dandy pictures.

1615
01:51:24,208 --> 01:51:25,125
Yes, he does.

1616
01:51:26,416 --> 01:51:28,333
We'll have to have Mark back on the show,

1617
01:51:28,333 --> 01:51:29,916
too, as he's over to talk about it.

1618
01:51:30,250 --> 01:51:31,750
Absolutely. Absolutely. It'll be a great

1619
01:51:31,750 --> 01:51:34,458
episode. Dave, thank you so much again.

1620
01:51:34,666 --> 01:51:36,416
And Dominique, we love having you on.

1621
01:51:36,416 --> 01:51:37,500
Can't wait to have you back on.

1622
01:51:37,791 --> 01:51:39,000
And everybody else who is listening to

1623
01:51:39,000 --> 01:51:41,208
this, thank you so much for supporting

1624
01:51:41,208 --> 01:51:43,375
us. If you have ideas on who you'd like

1625
01:51:43,375 --> 01:51:44,333
on, just let us know.

1626
01:51:44,333 --> 01:51:49,083
We'd be happy to find them and get them

1627
01:51:49,083 --> 01:51:51,583
on and invite them on the show. Dave, if

1628
01:51:51,583 --> 01:51:52,375
people want to get a hold

1629
01:51:52,375 --> 01:51:53,208
of you, how would they do so?

1630
01:51:53,333 --> 01:51:56,208
This lost shark guy and please go to my

1631
01:51:56,208 --> 01:51:58,458
channel, lost shark guy and check out the

1632
01:51:58,458 --> 01:51:59,500
series searching for lost

1633
01:51:59,500 --> 01:52:00,708
sharks extinct or alive.

1634
01:52:01,208 --> 01:52:03,166
Episode four is up now and please

1635
01:52:03,166 --> 01:52:04,833
subscribe. It really helps out if you can

1636
01:52:04,833 --> 01:52:06,250
subscribe to that and then

1637
01:52:06,250 --> 01:52:08,083
on Instagram lost shark guy.

1638
01:52:08,458 --> 01:52:09,625
Absolutely. And of course, you can watch

1639
01:52:09,625 --> 01:52:11,583
this. If you're listening to this, you

1640
01:52:11,583 --> 01:52:13,500
can also watch this on YouTube if you go

1641
01:52:13,500 --> 01:52:14,500
to our beyond Jaws

1642
01:52:14,500 --> 01:52:16,958
podcast YouTube channel.

1643
01:52:17,250 --> 01:52:18,750
And of course, you can listen to this on

1644
01:52:18,750 --> 01:52:20,583
all your favorite podcast apps. So I want

1645
01:52:20,583 --> 01:52:22,125
to thank you guys for joining us again

1646
01:52:22,125 --> 01:52:24,291
today. This has been another episode of

1647
01:52:24,291 --> 01:52:26,208
the Beyond Jaws podcast from Dave and I.

1648
01:52:26,208 --> 01:52:28,041
We have we hope you have a great day,

1649
01:52:28,291 --> 01:52:30,500
great rest of your day and we'll talk to

1650
01:52:30,500 --> 01:52:31,541
you later and happy conservation.