Sharks and Hurricanes: Aaron Carlisle’s Journey From Jaws Trauma to Shark Science

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We have Aaron Carlisle on the episode

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today for Beyond Jaws.

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It's going to be a fun one.

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We're going to be talking

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about sharks and hurricanes.

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Yes, that's all I have to say.

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Sharks and hurricanes.

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We're going to talk about

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that on today's episode of the,

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oh, we're going to talk

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about that on today's episode

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of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome back

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to another exciting episode

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of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I'm your co-host, Andrew Lewin.

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Here with my other

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co-host, Dr. David Ebert.

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Dave, are you ready to talk

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about sharks and hurricanes?

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Oh, absolutely.

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And especially today because Aaron

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Carlisle was a former student at Moss

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Landing Marine Laboratories.

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We had the Pacific Shark Research Center

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funded about 20 years ago.

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And so I've known Aaron a long time.

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And I've got to say, I'm looking forward

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to this one here with the shark NATO

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angle is definitely coming to play during

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this discussion today.

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Yeah, for sure.

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You know, being at the University of

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Delaware, it talks about, you know, how

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he got there, you know, the different

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schools that he went to, the challenges

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that he faced, doing his

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Masters, doing his PhD.

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There's a lot to go into here.

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What do you think people should really

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listen to in this interview?

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I think some of the stuff we talked

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about, like we talked a bit about, like,

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as you go, if you're pursuing a degree in

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marine science, thinking

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about each step of the way you go.

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As we comment on the Masters degrees, you

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know, certainly you

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can't go wrong with that.

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But yeah, if you're thinking about a PhD,

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we have some advice for you, what you

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really need to think about if you're

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entertaining, pursuing a PhD,

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which a lot of people today are, but you

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got to decide and we have

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some really good comments.

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We talk about that.

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Yeah.

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And I really think that's important for

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young people if you're listening,

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especially if you're in the in that field

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now and you're thinking about it, listen

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to what we have to say because I think

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it'd be really helpful for you.

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Absolutely.

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So let's get into the interview with Dr.

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Aaron Carlyle from the

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University of Delaware.

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Here's the interview and

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we'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Aaron.

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Welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk

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about sharks and hurricanes?

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Oh, boy, am I ever.

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Well, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast

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where we have an

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awesome special guest today.

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Have you seen the tagline sharks and

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hurricanes on social media recently and

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wondered what the heck that was about?

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Well, today, our guest is going to tell

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you about that about a

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real life shark NATO.

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Our guest is Dr. Aaron Carlyle and Aaron

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is an assistant professor of fisheries

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ecology at the University of Delaware.

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His research focuses on how a bat abiotic

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and biotic environmental and orgasm

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biology interface to influence behavior

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distribution and ecology of species and

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how these interactions impact their

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population dynamics, life history

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strategies and ecosystem.

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He uses a variety of approaches and

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technologies such as stable isotope

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analysis, biologuing combined with new

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ways to provide unique

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insights into marine species.

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Aaron's a member of the IUCN shark

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specialist group and is an active member

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of the American Elasmal Break Society and

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the American Fisheries Society.

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He has over 70 peer

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reviewed publications.

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They mentioned he's an assistant

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professor of fisheries ecology at the

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University of Delaware.

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Aaron did his bachelor's degree at

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Princeton University and he did his

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master's at the really the Cadillac of

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places, the Moss Landing Marine

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Laboratories, which

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is where I'm based at.

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And in fact, I've known Aaron for 20

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something years now, a long time.

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And then he went on to his PhD at

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Stanford University.

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With that, Aaron, welcome to the show.

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Thank you for having me.

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Always to talk about anything sharky.

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Cool.

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Very nice.

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Cool.

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Well, so start off

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with our first question.

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We always wanted to find out people like

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how do you get interested in sharks and

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marine science in general?

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So I mean, it will surprise you.

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But like think about my age, I was born,

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I hate to say in 1977.

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So what do you think led

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to my interest in shark?

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Sharknado, Sharknado, Sharknado, right?

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Star Wars was a Star Wars.

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Star Wars.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, it was Jaws.

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It was Jaws.

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So my father was a the I grew up in the

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Puget Sound up in Washington.

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Very nice.

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And on the island and my dad was a family

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practice doctor and he was working the

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emergency room overnight.

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And I was two or three.

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And he came home very tired.

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My mom went out to do

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something and left me with him.

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I have an older brother who was in this

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side doing something

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and younger sister too.

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But at the point when she

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came back, Jaws was on TV.

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My dad was asleep on the couch and I was

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sitting on his lap watching Jaws.

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And my eyes were like

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dinner plates like huge.

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And my dad was just snoring and she was

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like, what did you do?

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And so I was traumatized

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in a terrible, terrible way.

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There's Jaws was everywhere in every body

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of water, the toilet,

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the bathtub, the sink.

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And when you live on an island, you have

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to take a ferry to get to the mainland.

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And so Jaws was just chomping at the bit

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to get us and sink the ferry whenever we

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go back to the mainland.

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And so that I was literally terrified of

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sharks for a very long time.

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And that just morphed into fascination.

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I was like morbidly fascinated.

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And I started reading about him.

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I started learning about him just reading

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every book, everything

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I could find about him.

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And I just that turned

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into interest over time.

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And I would have never in a thousand

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years thought that I would be where I am

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studying sharks is like a job now.

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But it started back then.

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Thanks to Jaws again.

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Jaws 50th anniversary.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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You know, a lot of people I think got

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their inspiration for that and from that.

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And yeah, so here I am.

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So so when you so much at what point were

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you like in grade school or high school

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when you decided like

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you wanted to do sharks or?

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I never actually so.

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So my my uncle is a

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marine biologist at Scripps.

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And he was a well-known ecologist did a

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lot of Antarctic

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research kelp horse ecology.

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His name is Paul Dayton for anyone who

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knows the guy and so I didn't know who he

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was like he was kind of a big wig in the

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marine ecology world.

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And I didn't know that at all.

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He was my uncle and I was always very

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excited about the ocean and he would tell

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me stories and that was a big part of it

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also beyond an island.

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You can't get away from the ocean.

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Right. But I would tell him about sharks

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and he told me Aaron, you shouldn't waste

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your time studying sharks.

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You should study

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something important like crabs.

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Like a true invertebrate zoo.

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Exactly.

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And he has since apologized many many

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times and said you were right.

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I was wrong.

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But you know, it was kind of this this

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combination of Jaws with my

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uncle being a marine biologist.

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They're hearing because he was one of the

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first generation of like divers.

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He built his own scuba gear.

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And he was back in like this 50s and the

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stories he told me just inspired me and I

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just it just kind of was a virus that got

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into me and I could get rid of it and

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then being on an island you can't get

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away from the ocean.

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Yeah.

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So it was just it was part of me and now

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I'm I'm just lucky enough to keep turning

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this and do a job and career and play

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around with the ocean.

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It's wonderful.

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I have a story.

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I have a quick story of my supervisor for

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my master's when he was my undergraduate

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teacher at University of Guelph.

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We he talked about how he was a plankton

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biologist was was his background and I

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remember he you know, he asked us when we

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first started the class.

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He said, you know, who who here wants to

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study whales who here wants to say sharks

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and people put up whales and

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he's like, they're useless.

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Plankton is where you have to go.

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And he I think people are so angry at him

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at the end at the end of the class

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because he just kept mentioning that

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because he was a plankton biologist.

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Of course, it's going to think like that.

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But it was just very

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it was very interesting.

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And that's and that's similar to me.

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Like when I was I was I've always been

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interested in sharks.

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But then when I actually when I was an

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undergrad, I ended up taking a summer

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class subtitling college at Hopkins

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Marine Station, Stanford University,

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which is where I ended up

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doing my PhD in postdoc.

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And it was the most it was an amazing,

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beautiful experience.

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I we were diving. It was subtitling

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college. You were diving every day,

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learning kelp forest ecology, all the

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invertebrates, all the fish, all the

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01:08:25,958 --> 01:08:27,458
plants, all the algae.

278
01:08:27,750 --> 01:08:32,583
It was amazing. And I that's what led me

279
01:08:32,583 --> 01:08:34,166
to kind of apply to grad school.

280
01:08:34,166 --> 01:08:35,500
I was like, I really like this.

281
01:08:35,958 --> 01:08:38,333
Yeah. And my uncle actually told me if

282
01:08:38,333 --> 01:08:40,250
you want to study fish, you should go to

283
01:08:40,250 --> 01:08:41,250
Moss Laney Marine Labs

284
01:08:41,250 --> 01:08:42,541
because there's a guy there.

285
01:08:43,041 --> 01:08:46,250
Greg, who's like one of the best only old

286
01:08:46,250 --> 01:08:48,250
school ecologist, ecologist that will

287
01:08:48,250 --> 01:08:49,500
teach you everything about fish.

288
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:50,833
Yeah. I was like, huh,

289
01:08:50,833 --> 01:08:52,250
okay, so let's do that.

290
01:08:53,166 --> 01:08:55,375
Yeah. And and so that's kind of what led

291
01:08:55,375 --> 01:08:57,916
me down this this path that led me to

292
01:08:57,916 --> 01:08:59,500
Moss Landing was just Miranda.

293
01:08:59,750 --> 01:09:01,125
My my uncle telling

294
01:09:01,125 --> 01:09:02,208
me you should do this.

295
01:09:02,958 --> 01:09:05,916
And I ended up doing it, but it was it

296
01:09:05,916 --> 01:09:07,791
was just kind of this confluence of

297
01:09:07,791 --> 01:09:09,166
events that led to this.

298
01:09:09,750 --> 01:09:12,166
And because once I got into Greg's lab,

299
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:15,875
he was very anti not anti

300
01:09:15,875 --> 01:09:17,833
shark, but anti flashy things.

301
01:09:18,125 --> 01:09:19,958
And right things like that.

302
01:09:19,958 --> 01:09:21,291
And I was like, I don't want to do sharks

303
01:09:21,291 --> 01:09:23,458
because, you know, that's that's not what

304
01:09:23,458 --> 01:09:25,458
a serious marine biologist does.

305
01:09:26,125 --> 01:09:28,125
They study things like plankton and crab.

306
01:09:28,875 --> 01:09:32,375
Everyone knows that. And so and then I

307
01:09:32,375 --> 01:09:33,583
ended up just falling into

308
01:09:33,583 --> 01:09:36,708
this leopard shark kind of idea.

309
01:09:36,958 --> 01:09:38,708
And it was largely through a lot. Dave

310
01:09:38,708 --> 01:09:40,625
Ebert, like our wonder, your wonderful

311
01:09:40,625 --> 01:09:42,458
host had a big part of that.

312
01:09:42,875 --> 01:09:45,333
And along with our other Pope grad

313
01:09:45,333 --> 01:09:47,125
students at the time, Joe Bizarro and

314
01:09:47,125 --> 01:09:49,833
Wade Smith, who were like, hey, you

315
01:09:49,833 --> 01:09:50,916
should do something like this.

316
01:09:51,208 --> 01:09:54,125
And and then another the guy who's

317
01:09:54,125 --> 01:09:56,250
actually my co-advisor was Rick Starr,

318
01:09:56,875 --> 01:09:58,958
who worked for California Sea Grant.

319
01:09:59,625 --> 01:10:02,125
He had the telemetry expertise that he

320
01:10:02,125 --> 01:10:03,875
very generally taught me everything I

321
01:10:03,875 --> 01:10:04,833
know about that stuff.

322
01:10:05,250 --> 01:10:07,916
And so is is I'm sure everyone probably

323
01:10:07,916 --> 01:10:10,250
would tell you it's like it's we are all

324
01:10:10,250 --> 01:10:11,500
products of everyone we

325
01:10:11,500 --> 01:10:12,833
interact with through our past.

326
01:10:13,458 --> 01:10:14,708
And the only reason any of us get

327
01:10:14,708 --> 01:10:16,125
anywhere is through our

328
01:10:16,125 --> 01:10:17,958
network of people that get us there.

329
01:10:18,625 --> 01:10:20,291
Yeah. And so it's funny because you're a

330
01:10:20,291 --> 01:10:21,416
plankton crab, whatever.

331
01:10:21,583 --> 01:10:22,833
It's like there's the people are like,

332
01:10:22,833 --> 01:10:23,583
this is what's important.

333
01:10:23,583 --> 01:10:26,208
So I really avoided sharks for as long as

334
01:10:26,208 --> 01:10:27,916
I could just because I didn't want to be

335
01:10:27,916 --> 01:10:28,625
one of those people.

336
01:10:28,625 --> 01:10:29,541
I don't want to be a whale. I

337
01:10:29,541 --> 01:10:31,250
don't want to be shark hugger.

338
01:10:31,250 --> 01:10:32,125
But I couldn't avoid

339
01:10:32,125 --> 01:10:32,791
it. It just happened.

340
01:10:33,375 --> 01:10:34,666
I was going to say you can imagine what

341
01:10:34,666 --> 01:10:37,125
Greg Kaya was also my adviser when I did

342
01:10:37,125 --> 01:10:39,000
my master's back in the early 80s.

343
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:40,541
And you can imagine what it was like

344
01:10:40,541 --> 01:10:42,958
going to Greg back in the early 80s right

345
01:10:42,958 --> 01:10:45,875
after Jaws had come out, Mr.

346
01:10:46,208 --> 01:10:50,041
Anti-flashlight, you know. But I actually

347
01:10:50,041 --> 01:10:51,000
started doing the

348
01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:52,375
shark stuff at that time.

349
01:10:52,375 --> 01:10:53,750
But it was but he did it from more of a

350
01:10:53,750 --> 01:10:55,583
an ecology standpoint.

351
01:10:56,250 --> 01:10:57,750
The sharks were just like another fish,

352
01:10:58,208 --> 01:10:59,500
something to do with it.

353
01:10:59,541 --> 01:11:00,875
It wasn't like there's anything flashy.

354
01:11:01,041 --> 01:11:03,041
And it was such a and even when you when

355
01:11:03,041 --> 01:11:05,541
you started there in the early 2000s, it

356
01:11:05,541 --> 01:11:06,583
was a different is very

357
01:11:06,583 --> 01:11:08,000
different than it even is today.

358
01:11:08,458 --> 01:11:09,958
I think in terms of what you agree with

359
01:11:09,958 --> 01:11:11,166
the shark in the terms of the shark.

360
01:11:11,333 --> 01:11:12,750
Oh, 100 percent. Very different. You

361
01:11:12,750 --> 01:11:13,708
know, everything has changed.

362
01:11:14,333 --> 01:11:15,250
Yeah, it wasn't.

363
01:11:15,250 --> 01:11:16,791
Wasn't so here.

364
01:11:16,791 --> 01:11:17,666
Here's a question for you.

365
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:19,416
You and Andrew are kind of in that middle

366
01:11:19,416 --> 01:11:22,083
group for my age group to the younger

367
01:11:22,083 --> 01:11:23,833
kids that are like in school now.

368
01:11:23,833 --> 01:11:24,750
You're kind of in that middle group.

369
01:11:24,750 --> 01:11:26,291
But do you think you think like the

370
01:11:26,291 --> 01:11:27,333
social media stuff has

371
01:11:27,333 --> 01:11:28,583
changed a lot of that landscape?

372
01:11:28,750 --> 01:11:35,791
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's yeah.

373
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:37,750
I mean, it's it's changed everything.

374
01:11:37,750 --> 01:11:40,458
It's not just shark science. It's it's

375
01:11:40,458 --> 01:11:42,875
society and culture and civilization.

376
01:11:42,958 --> 01:11:45,708
Yeah, honestly, I mean, it's it's it's

377
01:11:45,708 --> 01:11:47,541
probably the most the biggest change in

378
01:11:47,541 --> 01:11:51,791
my culture for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

379
01:11:52,125 --> 01:11:53,833
Yeah. Yeah. So it was because it was like

380
01:11:53,833 --> 01:11:55,000
when you said you're doing sharks is

381
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:57,458
like, okay, it's like wasn't like such a

382
01:11:57,458 --> 01:11:58,416
even when you were back.

383
01:11:59,250 --> 01:12:00,625
There at Mossland. It wasn't like a

384
01:12:00,625 --> 01:12:01,916
wasn't like today or

385
01:12:01,916 --> 01:12:02,791
seemed like there's more.

386
01:12:03,750 --> 01:12:05,458
There's more of a like, oh, wow, sharks

387
01:12:05,458 --> 01:12:06,958
kind of thing where still it was like it

388
01:12:06,958 --> 01:12:09,375
was a it was a fish for study. Yeah. And

389
01:12:09,375 --> 01:12:13,500
well, I'm back then you to be, you know,

390
01:12:13,500 --> 01:12:14,875
quote unquote shark person.

391
01:12:14,875 --> 01:12:16,416
You had to go through school. You had to

392
01:12:16,416 --> 01:12:18,583
publish all these papers. You had to be

393
01:12:18,583 --> 01:12:20,375
one of like two or three people that's

394
01:12:20,375 --> 01:12:22,250
asked to be on like National Geographic

395
01:12:22,250 --> 01:12:24,916
or BBC. Yeah. This is before shark week.

396
01:12:24,958 --> 01:12:27,208
Yeah. And you know, not really, but you

397
01:12:27,208 --> 01:12:30,958
know, round time. And now you can just

398
01:12:30,958 --> 01:12:33,416
jump in the water with a shark, take some

399
01:12:33,416 --> 01:12:34,875
pictures, you become a shark expert.

400
01:12:35,416 --> 01:12:37,291
Yeah. And it's about social media, about

401
01:12:37,291 --> 01:12:38,791
the exposure. And it's not about actual

402
01:12:38,791 --> 01:12:40,666
expertise or training or knowledge. It's

403
01:12:40,666 --> 01:12:43,875
about your your likes and your if that's

404
01:12:43,875 --> 01:12:44,875
my own, you know, I'm

405
01:12:44,875 --> 01:12:45,708
being no, you're right.

406
01:12:45,750 --> 01:12:48,250
And you're sure I mean, people people

407
01:12:48,250 --> 01:12:50,208
look at it. And if you have a lot of

408
01:12:50,208 --> 01:12:52,416
followers, it's almost like you have a

409
01:12:52,416 --> 01:12:55,791
PhD, you know, where people will this

410
01:12:55,791 --> 01:12:57,458
person has so many followers, this person

411
01:12:57,458 --> 01:13:00,041
can do so much with it, whether that's

412
01:13:00,041 --> 01:13:02,083
right, like whether they do or not is

413
01:13:02,083 --> 01:13:03,625
irrelevant, is people are like, oh,

414
01:13:04,208 --> 01:13:06,000
people really like this person because

415
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:07,958
there's you have like million followers,

416
01:13:07,958 --> 01:13:09,708
two million followers, 10,000 followers.

417
01:13:09,750 --> 01:13:11,625
But if you have like, you know, if you're

418
01:13:11,625 --> 01:13:13,791
an actual PhD and you don't you're not on

419
01:13:13,791 --> 01:13:15,208
social media all that much, but you

420
01:13:15,208 --> 01:13:17,291
share, you know, some of your stuff on

421
01:13:17,291 --> 01:13:19,583
online, it's more scientific based, but

422
01:13:19,583 --> 01:13:21,500
you only have like 200 followers, people

423
01:13:21,500 --> 01:13:22,916
are like, well, you don't really, you

424
01:13:22,916 --> 01:13:24,333
don't have a lot of influence. It's like,

425
01:13:24,333 --> 01:13:26,250
it's very different. It definitely

426
01:13:26,250 --> 01:13:29,833
changes the way the public sees you as an

427
01:13:29,833 --> 01:13:31,416
expert, quote, unquote, expert. Because

428
01:13:31,416 --> 01:13:32,666
as you said, Aaron, like, you know,

429
01:13:32,666 --> 01:13:35,000
somebody with jumps in, jumps in, I mean,

430
01:13:35,250 --> 01:13:37,291
well, if we've all seen anybody has seen,

431
01:13:37,291 --> 01:13:37,666
which I don't

432
01:13:37,666 --> 01:13:38,708
recommend, the dancing was short.

433
01:13:38,750 --> 01:13:41,791
The dancing was sharks show that they had

434
01:13:41,791 --> 01:13:44,208
this week, this year for sharks week,

435
01:13:44,208 --> 01:13:47,000
which was absolutely atrocious. You know,

436
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:48,791
like they were calling them shark experts

437
01:13:48,791 --> 01:13:50,583
and and shark wranglers

438
01:13:50,583 --> 01:13:51,875
and all this kind of stuff.

439
01:13:51,875 --> 01:13:53,875
And you're just like, what are we doing

440
01:13:53,875 --> 01:13:55,958
here, folks? Like, what is this, you

441
01:13:55,958 --> 01:13:57,750
know? Yeah, absolutely. A hundred

442
01:13:57,750 --> 01:13:59,750
percent. And like, I mean, it's that

443
01:13:59,750 --> 01:14:01,625
shark week, everything. It's like when

444
01:14:01,625 --> 01:14:03,625
I've been watching some of the shark

445
01:14:03,625 --> 01:14:04,708
week, this year, shark week episodes.

446
01:14:04,750 --> 01:14:07,708
I've tried to watch some just to kind of

447
01:14:07,708 --> 01:14:09,541
keep my feel on the pole. Yeah, it's so

448
01:14:09,541 --> 01:14:12,125
hard. It's so hard to make it through any

449
01:14:12,125 --> 01:14:14,875
of them. Yeah. And you see these people

450
01:14:14,875 --> 01:14:17,375
in my my daughter will say, Leah will

451
01:14:17,375 --> 01:14:18,791
say, Who's this person? You know, I'm

452
01:14:18,791 --> 01:14:20,291
like, yeah, and they're like, they know

453
01:14:20,291 --> 01:14:21,458
what they're doing. Like, no, they're

454
01:14:21,458 --> 01:14:24,416
just they're, they're videographer. And

455
01:14:24,416 --> 01:14:25,875
they've just done it long enough where

456
01:14:25,875 --> 01:14:28,833
they've kind of taken on this persona of

457
01:14:28,833 --> 01:14:31,208
being a shark expert or marine biologist

458
01:14:31,208 --> 01:14:32,708
or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

459
01:14:32,833 --> 01:14:34,958
Yeah, like they there's always one or two

460
01:14:34,958 --> 01:14:36,833
of those episodes in that week where

461
01:14:36,833 --> 01:14:37,958
you're like, Oh, this is interesting.

462
01:14:37,958 --> 01:14:39,208
Like they've taken actual scientific

463
01:14:39,208 --> 01:14:41,625
study and they've kind of visualized it,

464
01:14:41,625 --> 01:14:43,083
which is kind of cool. Sharkfest, I find

465
01:14:43,083 --> 01:14:45,166
does more of that these days, where they

466
01:14:45,166 --> 01:14:48,625
actually take like a scientific. Lauren

467
01:14:48,625 --> 01:14:51,416
Meyer was on it with. Yeah, I won't

468
01:14:51,416 --> 01:14:53,958
forget the name. But yeah, Charlie,

469
01:14:53,958 --> 01:14:57,000
Charlie, Charlie. Yeah. And they, these

470
01:14:57,000 --> 01:14:58,541
are some cool ones. But yeah, I think

471
01:14:58,541 --> 01:15:00,250
it's I think it's really interesting the

472
01:15:00,250 --> 01:15:01,708
way it's it's gone these days.

473
01:15:01,750 --> 01:15:04,250
Yeah, and when I when I, you know, if I

474
01:15:04,250 --> 01:15:06,416
come across as badmouthing and poo pooing

475
01:15:06,416 --> 01:15:07,708
that stuff, I don't mean to do that. I

476
01:15:07,708 --> 01:15:09,083
mean, everyone tries to find their niche

477
01:15:09,083 --> 01:15:11,958
and make a living and that's fine. And so

478
01:15:11,958 --> 01:15:15,208
it's no no, no ill will to any anyone

479
01:15:15,208 --> 01:15:16,583
doing any of that. It's just it's

480
01:15:16,583 --> 01:15:18,791
something where I'm like, I don't, I

481
01:15:18,791 --> 01:15:21,250
still have imposter syndrome for what I

482
01:15:21,250 --> 01:15:23,541
do. And so I'm like, it took me a while.

483
01:15:23,541 --> 01:15:24,958
When can I say I'm actually a marine

484
01:15:24,958 --> 01:15:27,458
biologist? I asked my wife, Aaron, like,

485
01:15:27,458 --> 01:15:29,375
when can I say I'm a marine biologist?

486
01:15:29,833 --> 01:15:30,708
And yeah, I don't, I say I'm a marine biologist.

487
01:15:30,750 --> 01:15:33,208
I still sometimes I'm like, I can't

488
01:15:33,208 --> 01:15:35,083
believe that I'm actually considered to

489
01:15:35,083 --> 01:15:36,416
be an expert in anything.

490
01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:39,500
Right. It's a real. Yeah.

491
01:15:39,916 --> 01:15:42,958
You know, I would just say it's really

492
01:15:42,958 --> 01:15:45,791
true because like nowadays anybody if

493
01:15:45,791 --> 01:15:48,166
they just get on have a, you know, social

494
01:15:48,166 --> 01:15:50,208
media account, YouTube, they're an expert

495
01:15:50,208 --> 01:15:53,166
on it. But I know, like, I know just for

496
01:15:53,166 --> 01:15:56,166
myself, like, I've done a PhD, a postdoc,

497
01:15:56,166 --> 01:15:58,083
I'd written a book published, like, two

498
01:15:58,083 --> 01:16:00,000
dozen papers, I still didn't consider

499
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:01,708
myself like any kind of an expert.

500
01:16:01,750 --> 01:16:03,541
It wasn't until like some of my mentors,

501
01:16:03,541 --> 01:16:06,666
like Greg Kye and some of those guys

502
01:16:06,666 --> 01:16:08,000
said, it's okay, Dave, you can like

503
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:09,291
acknowledge like you know, something

504
01:16:09,291 --> 01:16:11,458
about sharks at this point in time, that

505
01:16:11,458 --> 01:16:12,750
I actually like, okay, I guess I know

506
01:16:12,750 --> 01:16:14,333
something. But I wasn't, I had to get

507
01:16:14,333 --> 01:16:16,791
that sort of peer review, that literally

508
01:16:16,791 --> 01:16:17,916
like a peer review before

509
01:16:17,916 --> 01:16:19,541
I get to acknowledge it.

510
01:16:19,541 --> 01:16:20,833
I didn't just couldn't, I just didn't

511
01:16:20,833 --> 01:16:22,625
feel comfortable saying it. And whereas

512
01:16:22,625 --> 01:16:23,958
today, I think it's just a very

513
01:16:23,958 --> 01:16:26,500
different, different world, very

514
01:16:26,500 --> 01:16:28,958
different thresholds and the bars are

515
01:16:28,958 --> 01:16:30,708
different, you know, for sure.

516
01:16:31,041 --> 01:16:34,208
And with that said, you know, there are

517
01:16:34,208 --> 01:16:35,833
some great scientists who are on social

518
01:16:35,833 --> 01:16:38,250
media who are sharing actual science, you

519
01:16:38,250 --> 01:16:40,666
know, which is great. I love to see that

520
01:16:40,666 --> 01:16:43,166
type of science. They are, you know,

521
01:16:43,166 --> 01:16:44,833
either becoming experts as they're doing

522
01:16:44,833 --> 01:16:46,500
their PhD, or they're doing their grad

523
01:16:46,500 --> 01:16:48,375
work, and they're sharing that, that

524
01:16:48,375 --> 01:16:48,708
experience and so forth.

525
01:16:48,750 --> 01:16:51,375
And you have some really great

526
01:16:51,375 --> 01:16:53,708
communicators out there who have become

527
01:16:53,708 --> 01:16:56,291
great communicators as they do more of

528
01:16:56,291 --> 01:16:57,708
this, this kind of stuff. And I think

529
01:16:57,708 --> 01:16:59,166
it'll benefit it'll be an interesting

530
01:16:59,166 --> 01:17:02,208
thing to see this new generation that

531
01:17:02,208 --> 01:17:04,708
have grown up with social media from

532
01:17:04,708 --> 01:17:06,458
birth, you know, and to

533
01:17:06,458 --> 01:17:06,708
see how that that reacts.

534
01:17:06,750 --> 01:17:10,458
I'll never forget my, my daughter, who's

535
01:17:10,458 --> 01:17:13,125
now, you know, 16 and, you know, walking

536
01:17:13,125 --> 01:17:15,500
up to the TV when she was just like a

537
01:17:15,500 --> 01:17:18,375
year and a bit, you know, with in diapers

538
01:17:18,375 --> 01:17:20,166
and her little stuffy and she's trying to

539
01:17:20,166 --> 01:17:24,208
swipe the TV open, you know, like, that's

540
01:17:24,208 --> 01:17:26,166
how that's how it's changed, you know,

541
01:17:26,166 --> 01:17:30,375
and it's crazy to think like she thought

542
01:17:30,375 --> 01:17:31,708
that was a huge iPad or tablet.

543
01:17:31,750 --> 01:17:34,791
You know, which today it could be, you

544
01:17:34,791 --> 01:17:36,458
never know, right? But, but I mean,

545
01:17:36,458 --> 01:17:37,583
that's, that's how it's changed. It's

546
01:17:37,583 --> 01:17:39,708
gonna be interesting to see how things

547
01:17:39,708 --> 01:17:41,708
are shared, you know, compared to like,

548
01:17:41,708 --> 01:17:43,750
you know, the way science is shared now,

549
01:17:43,750 --> 01:17:47,125
which is over, or how it was like still

550
01:17:47,125 --> 01:17:49,208
now, but even before was peer reviewed

551
01:17:49,208 --> 01:17:51,666
papers, but we realize those don't get

552
01:17:51,666 --> 01:17:52,708
shared with the general public.

553
01:17:52,750 --> 01:17:55,000
So unless someone's out there doing a

554
01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:57,208
talk to the public, or do a talk at an

555
01:17:57,208 --> 01:18:00,416
aquarium or zoo or at a university

556
01:18:00,416 --> 01:18:02,291
lecture hall, that information wasn't

557
01:18:02,291 --> 01:18:03,791
getting out to people, including like

558
01:18:03,791 --> 01:18:05,958
managers who needed the information to,

559
01:18:05,958 --> 01:18:07,125
to make better decisions.

560
01:18:07,416 --> 01:18:09,500
So I think social media definitely adds

561
01:18:09,500 --> 01:18:11,958
to that, that aspect, I think it'd be,

562
01:18:12,208 --> 01:18:12,666
it's gonna be interesting

563
01:18:12,666 --> 01:18:13,708
to see how that gets shared.

564
01:18:13,750 --> 01:18:15,458
Another question, Aaron, for you, because

565
01:18:15,458 --> 01:18:17,500
you're, do you have PhD students that

566
01:18:17,500 --> 01:18:19,541
you're, you know, okay, I thought you

567
01:18:19,541 --> 01:18:21,666
thought you so because now when even back

568
01:18:21,666 --> 01:18:22,708
when you were going through and I

569
01:18:22,708 --> 01:18:24,583
definitely when I was going, finished

570
01:18:24,583 --> 01:18:26,833
like a master's, go to master's is like,

571
01:18:26,833 --> 01:18:27,708
when I was going through was a big deal.

572
01:18:27,750 --> 01:18:30,541
And if you're gonna do a PhD, you really

573
01:18:30,541 --> 01:18:32,041
had to give it a lot of thought and like

574
01:18:32,041 --> 01:18:34,250
your advisors like, you know, Greg, I

575
01:18:34,250 --> 01:18:36,291
like I'm sure with you. And I remember

576
01:18:36,291 --> 01:18:38,000
even talking to you a bit is like, you

577
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:39,750
gave us some thought like, is this really

578
01:18:39,750 --> 01:18:43,250
is it worth doing the PhD for what I want

579
01:18:43,250 --> 01:18:45,083
to go in my career, if you're, if you're

580
01:18:45,083 --> 01:18:46,458
gonna become like a professor, like you

581
01:18:46,458 --> 01:18:48,833
are, clearly, you need to do a PhD, but

582
01:18:48,833 --> 01:18:49,208
in a lot of

583
01:18:49,208 --> 01:18:49,708
positions, you don't need that.

584
01:18:49,750 --> 01:18:53,041
But today, it seems like everybody wants

585
01:18:53,041 --> 01:18:56,291
to do that PhD, so they can say that

586
01:18:56,291 --> 01:18:59,708
their doctor, whoever, you know, and I

587
01:18:59,708 --> 01:19:01,666
try to tell people like, and you probably

588
01:19:01,666 --> 01:19:04,208
do as well, like, think about if you if

589
01:19:04,208 --> 01:19:05,708
this is really where you want to go,

590
01:19:05,708 --> 01:19:06,083
because you can

591
01:19:06,083 --> 01:19:07,500
almost be overly qualified.

592
01:19:07,708 --> 01:19:11,250
Yep. Yep. 100% correct. I every single

593
01:19:11,250 --> 01:19:13,041
potential student I

594
01:19:13,041 --> 01:19:14,416
talked to, I bring this up.

595
01:19:15,416 --> 01:19:19,583
And I tell them like, you know, PhD is if

596
01:19:19,583 --> 01:19:21,583
you want to get it for just to have it by

597
01:19:21,583 --> 01:19:24,458
your PhD by your name, great. But don't

598
01:19:24,458 --> 01:19:26,833
do it for employment or job or and if you

599
01:19:26,833 --> 01:19:29,541
can afford to do it, but it's it's only

600
01:19:29,541 --> 01:19:31,500
useful for certain situations.

601
01:19:31,750 --> 01:19:34,583
And it's in some place, sometimes it

602
01:19:34,583 --> 01:19:37,791
hurts masters never hurt. Right. Masters

603
01:19:37,791 --> 01:19:40,125
only help. It never is a bad thing. But

604
01:19:40,125 --> 01:19:42,875
once you get a PhD, you are pigeonholed,

605
01:19:42,875 --> 01:19:44,583
you're overqualified, even

606
01:19:44,583 --> 01:19:45,708
for things you would love to do.

607
01:19:45,750 --> 01:19:48,125
And you won't get hired because they're

608
01:19:48,125 --> 01:19:49,708
gonna assume you're not going to be happy

609
01:19:49,708 --> 01:19:52,458
being at a not running the show because

610
01:19:52,458 --> 01:19:55,708
what if you want to give a PhD, you're

611
01:19:55,708 --> 01:19:57,625
gonna want to run the show. That's the

612
01:19:57,625 --> 01:19:59,375
whole idea is that you only do if you

613
01:19:59,375 --> 01:20:01,291
want to manage something run something,

614
01:20:01,291 --> 01:20:03,708
have a program that does x, y, z.

615
01:20:03,750 --> 01:20:07,875
And so it's not useful for many, many,

616
01:20:07,875 --> 01:20:10,791
many, many, many people. And so it's hard

617
01:20:10,791 --> 01:20:14,583
to kind of disabuse young students that

618
01:20:14,583 --> 01:20:16,416
like, I want to get a PhD and you ask

619
01:20:16,416 --> 01:20:17,000
them why and they're like,

620
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:18,708
well, I just always wanted to.

621
01:20:19,333 --> 01:20:21,916
And I'm great if you really want to and

622
01:20:21,916 --> 01:20:24,041
you want to take the time to do it

623
01:20:24,041 --> 01:20:28,083
without having any potential employment

624
01:20:28,083 --> 01:20:31,125
on the other side, just given the reality

625
01:20:31,125 --> 01:20:32,583
of being a marine science and

626
01:20:32,583 --> 01:20:34,833
opportunities to get jobs and careers.

627
01:20:35,750 --> 01:20:37,166
It may not it's not gonna be necessarily

628
01:20:37,166 --> 01:20:39,416
worth it. You need to think about it.

629
01:20:39,416 --> 01:20:40,708
Yeah, it's a it's something you and I

630
01:20:40,708 --> 01:20:42,333
were talking about before we came on air

631
01:20:42,333 --> 01:20:45,416
here was that really, it's in I can speak

632
01:20:45,416 --> 01:20:46,375
from being a college in

633
01:20:46,375 --> 01:20:47,708
the late 70s and early 80s.

634
01:20:47,750 --> 01:20:50,000
There's never been like a lot of jobs in

635
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:52,625
this field. The only the only blip was in

636
01:20:52,625 --> 01:20:56,833
the 60s. When they had when the US and

637
01:20:56,833 --> 01:20:58,833
the Soviets were in this sort of science

638
01:20:58,833 --> 01:21:01,333
space race, really, it was a space race

639
01:21:01,333 --> 01:21:03,416
that really, they put a lot of money in

640
01:21:03,416 --> 01:21:05,291
this in both space and into the oceans.

641
01:21:06,166 --> 01:21:08,125
But except for in the 1960s there, it's

642
01:21:08,125 --> 01:21:10,750
never been a field people would would go

643
01:21:10,750 --> 01:21:12,791
into because there just was not many jobs

644
01:21:12,791 --> 01:21:15,458
that you have a few but not many. And so

645
01:21:15,458 --> 01:21:17,208
people today, young people, they say, you

646
01:21:17,208 --> 01:21:18,166
know, they're worried about jobs.

647
01:21:18,166 --> 01:21:20,625
Well, it's never been a field. There's a

648
01:21:20,625 --> 01:21:23,083
lot of jobs involved in and so people,

649
01:21:23,333 --> 01:21:24,833
you know, young people listening, think

650
01:21:24,833 --> 01:21:27,625
about you should think about that. And I

651
01:21:27,625 --> 01:21:29,208
think what you said to is a

652
01:21:29,208 --> 01:21:29,708
master's you can't go wrong.

653
01:21:29,750 --> 01:21:32,000
You'll learn skills that will be very

654
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:34,541
helpful to you. But PhD got a really

655
01:21:34,541 --> 01:21:36,791
think specially this student debt now

656
01:21:36,791 --> 01:21:39,666
coming out of this. Yeah, it's it's I

657
01:21:39,666 --> 01:21:41,250
mean, who wants to run up like I don't

658
01:21:41,250 --> 01:21:43,125
know what it costs to go for PhD at

659
01:21:43,125 --> 01:21:44,958
University of Delaware, but I'm probably

660
01:21:44,958 --> 01:21:45,666
guessing is a couple hundred

661
01:21:45,666 --> 01:21:48,583
grand to do a PhD at least.

662
01:21:48,583 --> 01:21:50,708
I don't actually even know. But I mean,

663
01:21:50,708 --> 01:21:52,208
the whole point of the PhD is hopefully

664
01:21:52,208 --> 01:21:56,833
you are paying for it. So that's true.

665
01:21:56,833 --> 01:21:58,375
But there I mean, there's living expenses

666
01:21:58,375 --> 01:21:58,708
and everything like that. It can be a lot of money.

667
01:21:58,750 --> 01:22:04,375
It's time. It's time. Absolutely. Yeah.

668
01:22:04,708 --> 01:22:06,333
Yeah. I mean, it takes it takes both of

669
01:22:06,333 --> 01:22:08,083
you, you know, right into your basically

670
01:22:08,083 --> 01:22:10,208
early 30s. If you're doing a P for the

671
01:22:10,208 --> 01:22:11,833
PhD, it's not something you're going to

672
01:22:11,833 --> 01:22:13,958
be done with. I mean, if you're very,

673
01:22:13,958 --> 01:22:15,708
very good, you might finish by your late

674
01:22:15,708 --> 01:22:17,833
20s. But more likely, it's going to be

675
01:22:17,833 --> 01:22:19,708
somewhere in your early 30s or later

676
01:22:19,708 --> 01:22:22,041
before you actually finish. Even later

677
01:22:22,041 --> 01:22:24,000
for me when I went to Moss Landing, had

678
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:26,041
the Moss landing like five

679
01:22:26,041 --> 01:22:27,458
year masters or whatever.

680
01:22:27,750 --> 01:22:30,208
Yeah. Yeah. But anyways, listen, yeah,

681
01:22:30,208 --> 01:22:31,541
the problem with Moss Landing is they got

682
01:22:31,541 --> 01:22:33,625
like the five year masters program. Some

683
01:22:33,625 --> 01:22:35,041
people could be seven or eight even

684
01:22:35,041 --> 01:22:36,791
talked to Wade Smith

685
01:22:36,791 --> 01:22:38,583
and Joe Bizarro. If you

686
01:22:38,750 --> 01:22:41,000
know what I'm talking about. And they

687
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:44,416
actually like the Cal State instituted a

688
01:22:44,416 --> 01:22:46,708
limit on the masters the length of time

689
01:22:46,708 --> 01:22:49,125
you could be a master student, because

690
01:22:49,125 --> 01:22:50,083
there's a guy I don't know if you

691
01:22:50,083 --> 01:22:51,500
probably knew him Dave, Dave Ventress.

692
01:22:51,708 --> 01:22:54,958
Oh, yeah. And he was the Institute of the

693
01:22:54,958 --> 01:22:56,500
Limited 14 years because

694
01:22:56,500 --> 01:22:57,708
of how long you took to

695
01:22:57,750 --> 01:22:58,750
the

696
01:22:58,750 --> 01:23:02,666
Yeah, I don't remember exactly but it was

697
01:23:02,666 --> 01:23:05,291
a 12 or it was a long time. And so there

698
01:23:05,291 --> 01:23:07,333
it's mostly has a reputation of being

699
01:23:07,333 --> 01:23:10,500
like the, you know, jazz, jazz freeform

700
01:23:10,500 --> 01:23:12,291
Odyssey of the marine sciences where you

701
01:23:12,291 --> 01:23:13,750
just kind of go in you get accepted and

702
01:23:13,750 --> 01:23:16,125
you meander your way through over X

703
01:23:16,125 --> 01:23:17,208
number of years because

704
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:21,000
Well, a lot of a lot of the faculty they

705
01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:23,166
used to have their Moss Lane was not like

706
01:23:23,166 --> 01:23:25,916
your easy masters thing they they when I

707
01:23:25,916 --> 01:23:28,166
started there. I don't know. It might

708
01:23:28,166 --> 01:23:29,500
have been similar when you did as well

709
01:23:29,500 --> 01:23:31,916
Aaron, but it was like they used to brag

710
01:23:31,916 --> 01:23:34,708
about how only 20% of the students that

711
01:23:34,708 --> 01:23:36,416
started actually finished their masters.

712
01:23:36,875 --> 01:23:39,125
Yeah, I know. I mean, now. Yeah,

713
01:23:39,125 --> 01:23:40,750
literally only one. I mean, literally be

714
01:23:40,750 --> 01:23:42,625
like only one in five a year can actually

715
01:23:42,625 --> 01:23:44,500
finish. This is a masters.

716
01:23:44,750 --> 01:23:49,125
I know. That's and that and but and then

717
01:23:49,125 --> 01:23:50,791
but then they say then they say like,

718
01:23:50,791 --> 01:23:52,916
yeah, and like something but of those

719
01:23:52,916 --> 01:23:55,875
that finish like, you know, 60% of you

720
01:23:55,875 --> 01:23:58,166
will go on for PhDs. And of course, when

721
01:23:58,166 --> 01:23:59,625
you're when you're your first week of

722
01:23:59,625 --> 01:24:01,625
school that you're like, Jesus Christ, I

723
01:24:01,625 --> 01:24:02,333
just want to get a

724
01:24:02,333 --> 01:24:03,791
master's the health of PhD.

725
01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:08,791
And so it was yeah, Moss Lane was

726
01:24:08,791 --> 01:24:10,541
definitely like a boot camp for crazy

727
01:24:10,541 --> 01:24:15,208
people. It were say domestic is man

728
01:24:15,208 --> 01:24:17,666
because it was not an easy program to get

729
01:24:17,666 --> 01:24:19,166
through it was not and you know, the

730
01:24:19,166 --> 01:24:21,875
thing is, is like it's PhD light. And so

731
01:24:21,875 --> 01:24:23,250
I mean, I ended up with like four or five

732
01:24:23,250 --> 01:24:24,291
publications for my

733
01:24:24,291 --> 01:24:25,708
masters, which is more than most.

734
01:24:25,750 --> 01:24:30,458
I had seven. Yeah, seven. So I learned a

735
01:24:30,458 --> 01:24:32,708
tremendous amount of muscle and sacrifice

736
01:24:32,708 --> 01:24:35,500
your turn. I would do it again if given

737
01:24:35,500 --> 01:24:36,208
the chance because I

738
01:24:36,208 --> 01:24:37,875
love so much. So important.

739
01:24:38,333 --> 01:24:39,500
I'll say the one the flip side, like when

740
01:24:39,500 --> 01:24:41,458
you got to do your PhD and you had to do

741
01:24:41,458 --> 01:24:44,166
things like qualifying exams and and and

742
01:24:44,166 --> 01:24:47,750
and seminars, qualifying seminar, it was

743
01:24:47,750 --> 01:24:50,000
like I was your product to see like, I've

744
01:24:50,000 --> 01:24:51,708
already done this. What? Yeah, it was

745
01:24:51,708 --> 01:24:53,000
honestly, that was the thing. Once you

746
01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:54,708
kind of went through that when you get to PhD was like, okay, I'm going to do that.

747
01:24:54,750 --> 01:24:56,750
So PhD was like, whatever, I can keep

748
01:24:56,750 --> 01:24:59,291
doing this forever. Fine. Yeah, yeah.

749
01:24:59,500 --> 01:25:01,125
It's pretty, it's pretty, it's pretty

750
01:25:01,125 --> 01:25:03,500
straightforward. So so I guess that's the

751
01:25:03,500 --> 01:25:05,125
flip side or one thing at Moss Landing,

752
01:25:05,125 --> 01:25:07,500
but it's, it's definitely a school for

753
01:25:07,500 --> 01:25:09,916
people that want to have a sadomasic,

754
01:25:09,916 --> 01:25:10,500
make that

755
01:25:10,500 --> 01:25:12,708
sadomasicistic, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

756
01:25:12,750 --> 01:25:15,958
Yeah, yeah. So, so you went along, so

757
01:25:15,958 --> 01:25:18,125
you've got your, she got you when you let

758
01:25:18,125 --> 01:25:19,041
me ask you, I here's the point, I don't

759
01:25:19,041 --> 01:25:20,125
even know this, I should know this, but

760
01:25:20,125 --> 01:25:21,916
when you were at Moss Landing, what point

761
01:25:21,916 --> 01:25:23,541
did you decide you're gonna do a PhD or

762
01:25:23,541 --> 01:25:24,000
do you already know

763
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:24,708
you're going to do one?

764
01:25:24,916 --> 01:25:29,750
Oh, basically, once I graduate was

765
01:25:29,750 --> 01:25:31,541
approaching graduation, realizing holy

766
01:25:31,541 --> 01:25:34,000
cow, I don't know what I'm doing. I got

767
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:35,875
to get a job or do something I was like,

768
01:25:35,875 --> 01:25:37,541
what am I gonna do? And I really enjoyed

769
01:25:37,541 --> 01:25:39,583
that I learned that I enjoyed research a

770
01:25:39,583 --> 01:25:42,833
lot. And that's one thing I learned and

771
01:25:42,833 --> 01:25:44,750
was beat into me was like, hey, if you're

772
01:25:44,750 --> 01:25:46,666
gonna go through this process, you really

773
01:25:46,666 --> 01:25:49,333
have to enjoy research in the process of

774
01:25:49,333 --> 01:25:51,583
science, which is a lot of frustration

775
01:25:51,583 --> 01:25:52,750
and dealing with setbacks.

776
01:25:53,750 --> 01:25:55,333
And it's all about perseverance and

777
01:25:55,333 --> 01:25:57,666
resilience and bouncing back when things

778
01:25:57,666 --> 01:25:59,000
go wrong, because things just basically

779
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:01,125
always go wrong. Right? They never go

780
01:26:01,125 --> 01:26:05,500
right. Always. And so it was that that

781
01:26:05,500 --> 01:26:06,916
point when I was like, okay, what am I

782
01:26:06,916 --> 01:26:07,875
gonna do? I'm like, well, I kind of want

783
01:26:07,875 --> 01:26:13,041
to do PhD. But at that point, I was I was

784
01:26:13,041 --> 01:26:15,208
married, my wife had a great job in the

785
01:26:15,208 --> 01:26:16,958
area. And I was like, I'm not gonna move

786
01:26:16,958 --> 01:26:18,916
my family around. What are the

787
01:26:18,916 --> 01:26:20,541
opportunities in the areas? You see Santa

788
01:26:20,541 --> 01:26:22,708
Cruz, Stanford, a few places.

789
01:26:22,750 --> 01:26:26,333
So I cast my net around and tried to talk

790
01:26:26,333 --> 01:26:27,958
to people in the area who did PhD

791
01:26:27,958 --> 01:26:31,791
programs. And I ended up talking at my

792
01:26:31,791 --> 01:26:34,208
Greg actually introduced me to Barbara

793
01:26:34,208 --> 01:26:37,333
block at Stanford, he knew her and I was

794
01:26:37,333 --> 01:26:38,791
graduating, he ended up emailing her

795
01:26:38,791 --> 01:26:40,291
saying, Hey, I have a shark guy looking

796
01:26:40,291 --> 01:26:41,708
for a shark guy, he was pretty good.

797
01:26:41,750 --> 01:26:44,875
And she said, Yeah, I actually am her

798
01:26:44,875 --> 01:26:46,541
student, Kevin Wang, who's now at

799
01:26:46,541 --> 01:26:48,166
Virginia Institute of Science was just

800
01:26:48,166 --> 01:26:50,333
graduating, he ran kind of like, was a

801
01:26:50,333 --> 01:26:51,625
big part of their white shark research

802
01:26:51,625 --> 01:26:52,708
project, salmon sharks, stuff like that.

803
01:26:52,750 --> 01:26:55,500
He was heading out, and she was looking

804
01:26:55,500 --> 01:26:57,500
for someone to step in, and I was in the

805
01:26:57,500 --> 01:27:00,208
right place at the right time. And so

806
01:27:00,208 --> 01:27:03,041
much of this is that kind of that dynamic

807
01:27:03,041 --> 01:27:05,583
where you're just happened to be situated

808
01:27:05,583 --> 01:27:07,250
to be able to take advantage of an

809
01:27:07,250 --> 01:27:08,708
opportunity when it presents itself.

810
01:27:08,750 --> 01:27:11,375
And I was lucky enough to get in because

811
01:27:11,375 --> 01:27:13,416
Stanford was is not a place where you

812
01:27:13,416 --> 01:27:15,125
apply and this advisor wants you to get

813
01:27:15,125 --> 01:27:17,000
in, you have to apply to the school, you

814
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:19,833
get evaluated amongst everyone. And

815
01:27:19,833 --> 01:27:21,583
you're not necessarily get in even if

816
01:27:21,583 --> 01:27:22,708
your advisor wants you.

817
01:27:22,750 --> 01:27:26,916
And so I was lucky enough to get in with

818
01:27:26,916 --> 01:27:30,208
Barbara block. And once I got in, I was I

819
01:27:30,208 --> 01:27:32,666
was set. And I was going and doing all

820
01:27:32,666 --> 01:27:35,166
kinds of crazy stuff with pelagic sharks

821
01:27:35,166 --> 01:27:37,416
and salmon sharks, white sharks, tunas,

822
01:27:37,625 --> 01:27:39,833
everything was an amazing opportunity to

823
01:27:39,833 --> 01:27:40,708
learn a tremendous amount.

824
01:27:40,750 --> 01:27:43,708
But it was so much of that was just like

825
01:27:43,708 --> 01:27:46,708
is based on the realities of life and

826
01:27:46,708 --> 01:27:48,708
having a family and have you balance the

827
01:27:48,708 --> 01:27:50,500
need because oftentimes people you got to

828
01:27:50,500 --> 01:27:51,916
go over here, you got to go different

829
01:27:51,916 --> 01:27:53,083
places for your PhD

830
01:27:53,083 --> 01:27:55,250
postdoc masters, whatever.

831
01:27:55,458 --> 01:27:57,375
And I was that never worked out for me

832
01:27:57,375 --> 01:27:59,750
just for my family in my life. And so I

833
01:27:59,750 --> 01:28:01,166
ended up being in the moderate Bay Area

834
01:28:01,166 --> 01:28:03,666
in California for almost 20 years doing

835
01:28:03,666 --> 01:28:05,708
all the following, which is a great place to do marine science.

836
01:28:05,750 --> 01:28:08,000
So if you're going to end up and being

837
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:09,333
stuck trying to figure out how to make

838
01:28:09,333 --> 01:28:11,333
your way in marine science, Monterey Bay

839
01:28:11,333 --> 01:28:13,583
Area is a great place to be. Yeah, yeah.

840
01:28:13,916 --> 01:28:15,583
So you are one of the things you did work

841
01:28:15,583 --> 01:28:18,041
on that because I get this all the time

842
01:28:18,041 --> 01:28:20,250
is these you worked on salmon sharks,

843
01:28:20,958 --> 01:28:22,250
these little salmon sharks. And if you

844
01:28:22,250 --> 01:28:25,458
live on the west coast here, people see

845
01:28:25,458 --> 01:28:27,166
us on social media, but people would call

846
01:28:27,166 --> 01:28:28,916
call up Mossland all the time like hey,

847
01:28:28,916 --> 01:28:29,500
they're a little white

848
01:28:29,500 --> 01:28:30,666
shark washed up on the beach.

849
01:28:30,750 --> 01:28:32,583
And you ask like, well, how big is it

850
01:28:32,583 --> 01:28:34,125
about three feet? Well, it's not a white

851
01:28:34,125 --> 01:28:36,333
shark. It's actually a salmon shark. Now

852
01:28:36,333 --> 01:28:38,500
you worked on those to kind of figure out

853
01:28:38,500 --> 01:28:40,458
and cover the mystery of why these things

854
01:28:40,458 --> 01:28:41,333
were beach in themselves.

855
01:28:41,625 --> 01:28:44,708
Could you talk about that? Yeah, yeah,

856
01:28:44,958 --> 01:28:47,333
no. So that was, you know,

857
01:28:47,333 --> 01:28:48,708
it was such a fun project.

858
01:28:49,750 --> 01:28:52,458
And it was just kind of trying to because

859
01:28:52,458 --> 01:28:54,000
that was that was a consistent thing.

860
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:55,833
Like you said, there were these little

861
01:28:55,833 --> 01:28:57,125
laminated sharks and these

862
01:28:57,125 --> 01:29:00,250
little just sausages of sharks.

863
01:29:00,541 --> 01:29:02,500
The cutest thing you could ever imagine.

864
01:29:02,500 --> 01:29:04,208
Little, little miniaturized shrunken

865
01:29:04,208 --> 01:29:06,291
white sharks would be on the beach. And

866
01:29:06,291 --> 01:29:07,500
every now and then it would happen. We

867
01:29:07,500 --> 01:29:08,708
get calls, we go collect them.

868
01:29:09,750 --> 01:29:12,083
But the question has always been, why are

869
01:29:12,083 --> 01:29:14,625
these sharks stranding and not it's not

870
01:29:14,625 --> 01:29:16,125
like shark strand all the time. They

871
01:29:16,125 --> 01:29:19,750
rarely do. And one of the unusual things

872
01:29:19,750 --> 01:29:22,333
about salmon sharks is their regional

873
01:29:22,333 --> 01:29:25,750
endotherms, which means they generate and

874
01:29:25,750 --> 01:29:26,708
retain their own body.

875
01:29:26,750 --> 01:29:29,666
They're actually warm their body above

876
01:29:29,666 --> 01:29:31,541
ambient water temperature. And so they

877
01:29:31,541 --> 01:29:33,500
actually they salmon sharks and poor

878
01:29:33,500 --> 01:29:35,916
beagles, the two species in the genus

879
01:29:35,916 --> 01:29:39,541
lambda are like the kings of endothermy.

880
01:29:39,750 --> 01:29:41,625
So they they generate, they raise their

881
01:29:41,625 --> 01:29:45,166
body temperature by about 21 degrees C

882
01:29:45,166 --> 01:29:47,166
above ambient. So basically, if the water

883
01:29:47,166 --> 01:29:49,833
temperature is a little above zero, 10

884
01:29:49,833 --> 01:29:51,416
degrees Fahrenheit, their body

885
01:29:51,416 --> 01:29:52,333
temperature is like 80

886
01:29:52,333 --> 01:29:53,708
or 85 degrees Fahrenheit.

887
01:29:53,750 --> 01:29:56,916
Right. So they they are warm sharks in a

888
01:29:56,916 --> 01:30:01,958
cold ocean. And so that endothermy has

889
01:30:01,958 --> 01:30:04,500
some great benefits, but also potentially

890
01:30:04,500 --> 01:30:07,625
important limitations. And one of the

891
01:30:07,625 --> 01:30:12,000
issues is is that salmon sharks, because

892
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:14,333
they're endothermic, they generate a lot

893
01:30:14,333 --> 01:30:15,208
of their body heat

894
01:30:15,208 --> 01:30:15,708
with their red muscles.

895
01:30:15,750 --> 01:30:18,041
So red muscle and white muscle are the

896
01:30:18,041 --> 01:30:20,833
two kinds of muscle. Most of fish muscle

897
01:30:20,833 --> 01:30:23,000
mass is white muscle is white because

898
01:30:23,000 --> 01:30:24,500
there's not much blood flow, not much

899
01:30:24,500 --> 01:30:27,375
vascularization mitochondria my globe and

900
01:30:27,375 --> 01:30:28,000
all this other stuff.

901
01:30:29,416 --> 01:30:31,625
The red muscle is the the marathon

902
01:30:31,625 --> 01:30:33,458
runner. So it's thinking about a bird.

903
01:30:33,458 --> 01:30:35,166
It's like the leg muscles versus the

904
01:30:35,166 --> 01:30:36,500
breast. So the legs are what they're

905
01:30:36,500 --> 01:30:39,000
always using the red dark meat versus the

906
01:30:39,000 --> 01:30:39,708
white meat is the white muscle.

907
01:30:40,750 --> 01:30:42,583
And so the dark meat is for constant

908
01:30:42,583 --> 01:30:45,166
movement, constantly doing things. And so

909
01:30:45,166 --> 01:30:47,625
the salmon sharks and other endothermic

910
01:30:47,625 --> 01:30:49,375
sharks, which are just in the family land

911
01:30:49,375 --> 01:30:52,125
today, for the most part, they have these

912
01:30:52,125 --> 01:30:54,625
big masses of red muscle. They're located

913
01:30:54,625 --> 01:30:56,375
right next to their backbone in the

914
01:30:56,375 --> 01:30:56,708
middle of their body.

915
01:30:56,750 --> 01:31:00,000
And they generate a lot of heat and they

916
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:01,125
have these counter current heat

917
01:31:01,125 --> 01:31:03,958
exchangers that trap the heat in the

918
01:31:03,958 --> 01:31:05,791
middle of the body. They also counter

919
01:31:05,791 --> 01:31:08,250
current heat exchangers in their head and

920
01:31:08,250 --> 01:31:10,500
their guts and their stomach kidneys,

921
01:31:10,500 --> 01:31:11,708
spleen, things like that.

922
01:31:11,750 --> 01:31:14,041
They trap the heat, the metabolic heat

923
01:31:14,041 --> 01:31:16,500
because the end product of all biological

924
01:31:16,500 --> 01:31:19,000
processes is heat generation and heat

925
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:21,750
loss. And so they trap that and they

926
01:31:21,750 --> 01:31:23,666
elevate their body temperature with let's

927
01:31:23,666 --> 01:31:25,583
that when that lets them swim faster

928
01:31:25,583 --> 01:31:27,125
because their brains warmer.

929
01:31:27,125 --> 01:31:28,708
They can think faster. They can see

930
01:31:28,708 --> 01:31:31,291
faster, actually. They're digest meals

931
01:31:31,291 --> 01:31:33,458
faster. They can grow faster. Everything

932
01:31:33,458 --> 01:31:36,375
is sped up. But so one of the limitations

933
01:31:36,375 --> 01:31:38,958
of that is that when you're small, if

934
01:31:38,958 --> 01:31:40,458
your body temperature drops,

935
01:31:41,750 --> 01:31:43,541
the red muscle stops working. So there is

936
01:31:43,541 --> 01:31:45,208
some great papers that came out that

937
01:31:45,208 --> 01:31:48,500
showed that when the red muscle of salmon

938
01:31:48,500 --> 01:31:51,166
sharks gets below about 20 degrees

939
01:31:51,166 --> 01:31:55,041
centigrade, 18 to 20 degrees, it stops

940
01:31:55,041 --> 01:31:57,500
working. It just doesn't work anymore. It

941
01:31:57,500 --> 01:31:58,041
doesn't generate

942
01:31:58,041 --> 01:32:00,250
power, doesn't do anything.

943
01:32:00,750 --> 01:32:03,000
And so if their body temperature drops

944
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:06,333
too far, they're going to get stressed

945
01:32:06,333 --> 01:32:09,916
out and die. And so what our theory was,

946
01:32:09,916 --> 01:32:12,125
was not not just mine, but lots of

947
01:32:12,125 --> 01:32:13,500
people. I was just the one that kind of

948
01:32:13,500 --> 01:32:15,750
tested it. But was that maybe this is

949
01:32:15,750 --> 01:32:17,500
associated with cold shock.

950
01:32:18,500 --> 01:32:20,791
And so if you think about the coast of

951
01:32:20,791 --> 01:32:23,916
California, we have a very intense

952
01:32:23,916 --> 01:32:26,666
upwelling season where there's these huge

953
01:32:26,666 --> 01:32:29,500
masses of very cold, deep water that gets

954
01:32:29,500 --> 01:32:31,291
sucked up to the surface very quickly.

955
01:32:32,666 --> 01:32:34,750
And it can drop your the water

956
01:32:34,750 --> 01:32:37,750
temperature by seven to 10 degrees

957
01:32:37,750 --> 01:32:40,875
centigrade or something like that. And so

958
01:32:40,875 --> 01:32:43,000
very almost instantaneously. So if you're

959
01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:46,000
a little tiny, warm shark, that's a meter

960
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:47,708
long, so three feet long or so.

961
01:32:47,750 --> 01:32:50,625
And you all of a sudden get stuck in this

962
01:32:50,625 --> 01:32:53,083
bolus of this huge mass of very cold

963
01:32:53,083 --> 01:32:55,250
water, your red muscles not going to

964
01:32:55,250 --> 01:32:57,000
work, you're going to get super stressed

965
01:32:57,000 --> 01:33:00,375
out. And so the one thing that they found

966
01:33:00,375 --> 01:33:02,625
is that when they started looking at

967
01:33:02,625 --> 01:33:04,083
these sharks, because they behave really

968
01:33:04,083 --> 01:33:06,000
weird when they're stranding, so people

969
01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:08,916
would see them floundering in the surf

970
01:33:08,916 --> 01:33:11,708
and eventually end up on the beach.

971
01:33:11,750 --> 01:33:13,875
And so they acted weird. And they looked

972
01:33:13,875 --> 01:33:15,041
and they found that they had these

973
01:33:15,041 --> 01:33:16,833
massive brain infections, they had

974
01:33:16,833 --> 01:33:19,291
meningioencephalitis, and this very

975
01:33:19,291 --> 01:33:21,791
particular kind of bacteria. And the

976
01:33:21,791 --> 01:33:23,791
bacteria is associated in aquaculture

977
01:33:23,791 --> 01:33:24,791
salmon, aquaculture,

978
01:33:24,791 --> 01:33:25,708
things like that with stress.

979
01:33:25,750 --> 01:33:28,375
So whenever the salmon are handled, they

980
01:33:28,375 --> 01:33:30,708
get these outbreaks of this, this

981
01:33:30,708 --> 01:33:33,583
bacterial infection. And so basically,

982
01:33:33,583 --> 01:33:35,125
the idea was maybe these animals get

983
01:33:35,125 --> 01:33:37,541
stressed because of cold shock, and it

984
01:33:37,541 --> 01:33:39,083
basically infects their brain gives them

985
01:33:39,083 --> 01:33:41,083
this massive brain systemic infection.

986
01:33:42,291 --> 01:33:43,708
And every salmon shark that's been looked

987
01:33:43,708 --> 01:33:45,791
at, for the most part, I think actually

988
01:33:45,791 --> 01:33:47,291
everyone that's been looked at baby

989
01:33:47,291 --> 01:33:49,500
salmon shark has had this infection. And

990
01:33:49,500 --> 01:33:52,250
so when you actually start to look at

991
01:33:52,250 --> 01:33:55,583
when they strand, like so if I find that

992
01:33:55,583 --> 01:33:57,875
they've the sharks stranded Monterey Bay

993
01:33:57,875 --> 01:33:59,375
and I look at, okay, what's going on

994
01:33:59,375 --> 01:34:01,041
Monterey Bay for the last two weeks,

995
01:34:01,625 --> 01:34:04,000
because these infections happen and

996
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:05,708
resolve themselves very quickly.

997
01:34:05,750 --> 01:34:08,291
So once they get that infection, they die

998
01:34:08,291 --> 01:34:10,291
pretty quickly within a week or two. So

999
01:34:10,291 --> 01:34:11,625
we basically started looking at where

1000
01:34:11,625 --> 01:34:13,333
every stranding event, let's look back in

1001
01:34:13,333 --> 01:34:15,541
the history within a certain area around

1002
01:34:15,541 --> 01:34:17,583
the stranding area. And every time that

1003
01:34:17,583 --> 01:34:20,000
we looked back, it was very cold, there

1004
01:34:20,000 --> 01:34:21,291
was a severe upwelling event.

1005
01:34:21,791 --> 01:34:24,666
And so our theory is that they get stuck

1006
01:34:24,666 --> 01:34:27,041
in this cold water because of their warm

1007
01:34:27,041 --> 01:34:29,041
physiology, it stresses them out,

1008
01:34:29,416 --> 01:34:31,125
triggers this massive brain infection,

1009
01:34:31,125 --> 01:34:32,708
they end up stranding. And they've ended

1010
01:34:32,708 --> 01:34:33,500
up seeing the same

1011
01:34:33,500 --> 01:34:34,708
infection in common threshers.

1012
01:34:34,750 --> 01:34:38,875
Which are another endothermic shark, and

1013
01:34:38,875 --> 01:34:41,500
even potentially juvenile leopard white

1014
01:34:41,500 --> 01:34:42,916
sharks, maybe I think maybe there might

1015
01:34:42,916 --> 01:34:44,000
have been a white shark they found. I

1016
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:45,125
don't remember. I haven't been keeping up

1017
01:34:45,125 --> 01:34:47,541
with the literature so much, but it's it

1018
01:34:47,541 --> 01:34:47,708
was a cool because it was like a detective story.

1019
01:34:47,750 --> 01:34:51,875
And you actually find records the very

1020
01:34:51,875 --> 01:34:53,208
first salmon shark who's actually

1021
01:34:53,208 --> 01:34:54,875
described was described in central

1022
01:34:54,875 --> 01:34:57,625
California by David Starr Jordan, who is

1023
01:34:57,625 --> 01:34:59,125
the first president of Stanford and the

1024
01:34:59,125 --> 01:35:03,208
famous ecthiologist in America, one of

1025
01:35:03,208 --> 01:35:04,250
the most important, right?

1026
01:35:04,750 --> 01:35:07,500
American ecthiologist. Also a little bit

1027
01:35:07,500 --> 01:35:10,208
racist, it turns out, but you know, by

1028
01:35:10,208 --> 01:35:13,375
God's, I guess. But the salmon shark was

1029
01:35:13,375 --> 01:35:15,000
described in that salmon shark he first

1030
01:35:15,000 --> 01:35:16,708
collected is at Calicad, I think. And it was a very interesting thing.

1031
01:35:17,125 --> 01:35:19,708
And it was stranded. It was a little baby

1032
01:35:19,708 --> 01:35:21,625
salmon shark that stranded back in 1880.

1033
01:35:21,625 --> 01:35:24,500
And so these stranding events go way

1034
01:35:24,500 --> 01:35:26,625
back. And so there's been some

1035
01:35:26,625 --> 01:35:28,666
insinuations that this is contaminants

1036
01:35:28,666 --> 01:35:31,250
and pollution and whatever. And no, the

1037
01:35:31,250 --> 01:35:33,000
fact is, they've been stranding as long

1038
01:35:33,000 --> 01:35:33,875
as we've been around.

1039
01:35:34,625 --> 01:35:36,666
Wow. So yeah, anyway,

1040
01:35:36,958 --> 01:35:37,458
along with the dancer.

1041
01:35:37,750 --> 01:35:39,708
Yeah, they do. You see similar things

1042
01:35:39,708 --> 01:35:41,458
with poor beagle sharks, which are a

1043
01:35:41,458 --> 01:35:43,333
close relative of the salmon sharks, not

1044
01:35:43,333 --> 01:35:45,083
in the Atlantic, but it's like in the in

1045
01:35:45,083 --> 01:35:47,166
the round here, there's not really a

1046
01:35:47,166 --> 01:35:49,166
whole lot of upwelling in the same way

1047
01:35:49,166 --> 01:35:50,916
that you get in California and in the

1048
01:35:50,916 --> 01:35:51,500
eastern boundary

1049
01:35:51,500 --> 01:35:53,416
currents in the in in Europe.

1050
01:35:54,500 --> 01:35:55,375
I don't know if there's

1051
01:35:55,375 --> 01:35:56,708
baby poor beagles around there.

1052
01:35:57,500 --> 01:35:59,333
So here here's something that hasn't been

1053
01:35:59,333 --> 01:36:00,916
studied. But I just know this from having

1054
01:36:00,916 --> 01:36:02,583
lived there in South Africa, they get

1055
01:36:02,583 --> 01:36:04,791
these cold snaps, we get the warm water

1056
01:36:04,791 --> 01:36:07,291
coming from the gala's down towards the

1057
01:36:07,291 --> 01:36:08,708
western Cape and it meets with the

1058
01:36:09,750 --> 01:36:11,291
Benguela current right there at Cape

1059
01:36:11,291 --> 01:36:13,458
Point. But at times of the year, the

1060
01:36:13,458 --> 01:36:16,000
first few records of crocodile sharks,

1061
01:36:16,625 --> 01:36:19,041
Pseudo Carcarius, Kamahari, which is a

1062
01:36:19,041 --> 01:36:20,791
little which is a little laminate. It

1063
01:36:20,791 --> 01:36:22,541
only gets like two feet long.

1064
01:36:23,208 --> 01:36:24,416
Go, go check it out. It's called

1065
01:36:24,416 --> 01:36:27,041
crocodile sharks. The first records of

1066
01:36:27,041 --> 01:36:29,250
these things from South Africa were beach

1067
01:36:29,250 --> 01:36:33,250
wash around Cape Town. And this is I, I

1068
01:36:33,250 --> 01:36:35,041
picked up ever looked in them, like in

1069
01:36:35,041 --> 01:36:36,333
terms of like in like

1070
01:36:36,333 --> 01:36:37,666
red muscle distribution.

1071
01:36:38,750 --> 01:36:40,541
This was this was back in like in the

1072
01:36:40,541 --> 01:36:42,625
late 80s, early 90s when I was a student

1073
01:36:42,625 --> 01:36:44,583
there. It wasn't even I was just like,

1074
01:36:44,583 --> 01:36:46,125
oh, I just washed up. And there's a few

1075
01:36:46,125 --> 01:36:47,833
other there's a few other sharks would

1076
01:36:47,833 --> 01:36:49,500
wash up. You'd see occasionally in a bull

1077
01:36:49,500 --> 01:36:50,791
shark or a couple others.

1078
01:36:50,791 --> 01:36:53,500
But these little crocodile sharks, which

1079
01:36:53,500 --> 01:36:54,875
the guys would occasionally catch

1080
01:36:54,875 --> 01:36:56,916
offshore in the tuna fisheries because

1081
01:36:56,916 --> 01:36:59,291
they're a pelagic species, they would

1082
01:36:59,291 --> 01:37:01,416
wash up on the beaches like around Cape

1083
01:37:01,416 --> 01:37:03,875
Town. And I know I probably picked up 234

1084
01:37:03,875 --> 01:37:06,083
of them that I I came across.

1085
01:37:06,750 --> 01:37:08,583
And but they fit exactly what you're

1086
01:37:08,583 --> 01:37:10,458
talking about with a lot of red muscle

1087
01:37:10,458 --> 01:37:13,375
mass. These are very high speed little

1088
01:37:13,375 --> 01:37:15,083
sharks. And again, if you're listening,

1089
01:37:15,083 --> 01:37:16,791
go check out a crocodile shark.

1090
01:37:17,291 --> 01:37:20,250
They're cool. Very cool. Very cool shark.

1091
01:37:21,041 --> 01:37:23,000
But but we used to get these cold snaps

1092
01:37:23,000 --> 01:37:26,500
and you would see again, this is all

1093
01:37:26,500 --> 01:37:28,291
ancidodal stuff, but you would see these

1094
01:37:28,291 --> 01:37:29,750
occasions I'd come across

1095
01:37:29,750 --> 01:37:30,708
these little people that come.

1096
01:37:30,750 --> 01:37:32,333
And people come. I wasn't the only person

1097
01:37:32,333 --> 01:37:33,416
other people would see him occasionally.

1098
01:37:33,416 --> 01:37:35,333
Not not big numbers, but you find one

1099
01:37:35,333 --> 01:37:37,541
here, one there on the beaches. Yeah,

1100
01:37:37,833 --> 01:37:40,041
that's the crocodile sharks on my bucket

1101
01:37:40,041 --> 01:37:42,000
list. I've never seen one. I've been

1102
01:37:42,000 --> 01:37:43,458
fascinating with them for years.

1103
01:37:43,458 --> 01:37:45,875
I read about them. I was looking at one

1104
01:37:45,875 --> 01:37:48,291
right now. I got it. Dude, I can tell you

1105
01:37:48,291 --> 01:37:50,666
where you could see like literally

1106
01:37:50,666 --> 01:37:53,125
hundreds of them. If you want, if you

1107
01:37:53,125 --> 01:37:55,375
want to tell me and we can do it offline

1108
01:37:55,375 --> 01:37:56,708
because I want to see.

1109
01:37:56,750 --> 01:37:59,666
I want to see a crocodile shark. Oh my

1110
01:37:59,666 --> 01:38:02,375
god. I you can. Yeah, I saw more croc.

1111
01:38:02,375 --> 01:38:04,375
I've seen them, but I got a place. We'll

1112
01:38:04,375 --> 01:38:05,916
talk later. We'll talk after the show.

1113
01:38:06,125 --> 01:38:07,458
Alright, cool. Let's do it. We can see a

1114
01:38:07,458 --> 01:38:08,208
lot of we can see a

1115
01:38:08,208 --> 01:38:09,250
lot of crocodile sharks.

1116
01:38:10,125 --> 01:38:12,541
I need to see a crocodile shark. They're

1117
01:38:12,541 --> 01:38:14,000
really they're they're an awesome little

1118
01:38:14,000 --> 01:38:15,708
they're definitely one. I've always would

1119
01:38:15,708 --> 01:38:16,583
have been interested to do like an

1120
01:38:16,583 --> 01:38:19,250
ecology study on but I could never get

1121
01:38:19,250 --> 01:38:21,500
enough of them. It's such a low hanging

1122
01:38:21,500 --> 01:38:23,666
fruit. I mean, that's the that to me is

1123
01:38:23,666 --> 01:38:25,083
like that's one of the few lambda form

1124
01:38:25,083 --> 01:38:25,708
like one of that group of sharks. It's like.

1125
01:38:25,750 --> 01:38:26,666
I mean, I think that group of sharks is

1126
01:38:26,666 --> 01:38:29,000
left. It's really no one knows much about

1127
01:38:29,000 --> 01:38:30,958
no they they do catch him in tuna

1128
01:38:30,958 --> 01:38:32,833
fisheries. These are these pelagic

1129
01:38:32,833 --> 01:38:35,125
fisheries. They catch those out there.

1130
01:38:35,125 --> 01:38:36,708
They some places they'll catch them and I

1131
01:38:36,708 --> 01:38:37,833
think out in the Hawaiian Islands,

1132
01:38:37,833 --> 01:38:38,916
they'll catch. This is not the place I'm

1133
01:38:38,916 --> 01:38:40,333
talking about, but they're they'll catch

1134
01:38:40,333 --> 01:38:41,500
him out in the Hawaiian Islands, but they

1135
01:38:41,500 --> 01:38:42,666
just throw them back because they're not

1136
01:38:42,666 --> 01:38:44,416
they're small little sharks. They're not

1137
01:38:44,416 --> 01:38:46,000
worth anything. The fins are small.

1138
01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:47,875
There's they just throw them back, but I

1139
01:38:47,875 --> 01:38:49,041
think a lot of the pelagic fisheries

1140
01:38:49,041 --> 01:38:51,250
probably catch them more frequently than

1141
01:38:51,250 --> 01:38:53,541
people realize. Yeah. And they're and and

1142
01:38:53,541 --> 01:38:54,916
just if you're curious, if you have to

1143
01:38:54,916 --> 01:38:55,708
look at a pitch, if people are

1144
01:38:55,750 --> 01:38:57,500
looking at the show, if you want to look

1145
01:38:57,500 --> 01:38:59,208
at them, they're vicious little leaders

1146
01:38:59,208 --> 01:39:02,083
too. They're like they're like they they

1147
01:39:02,083 --> 01:39:04,708
they'll eat cephalopods elite other bony

1148
01:39:04,708 --> 01:39:07,833
fishes small shark. I mean, they're like

1149
01:39:07,833 --> 01:39:10,250
they're pretty pretty vicious little

1150
01:39:10,250 --> 01:39:12,583
critters. So anyway, I know that they're

1151
01:39:12,583 --> 01:39:14,916
just just to let people know if you look

1152
01:39:14,916 --> 01:39:16,291
up crocodile sharks and you look for

1153
01:39:16,291 --> 01:39:19,041
images, there's a lot of AI of crocodile

1154
01:39:19,041 --> 01:39:21,625
sharks. They're not accurate. So make

1155
01:39:21,625 --> 01:39:23,666
sure you're looking up the right ones

1156
01:39:23,666 --> 01:39:25,708
because there's a lot real

1157
01:39:25,750 --> 01:39:26,916
sharks. They're like, is that it? No,

1158
01:39:26,916 --> 01:39:28,333
they don't look like crocodiles. They

1159
01:39:28,333 --> 01:39:30,416
don't look like crocodiles. Yeah. I'll

1160
01:39:30,416 --> 01:39:32,750
say that just just for your intro, the

1161
01:39:32,750 --> 01:39:35,666
scientific name is pseudo carcarius

1162
01:39:35,666 --> 01:39:38,708
Kamahara. So I know it's a mouthful to

1163
01:39:38,708 --> 01:39:40,625
say but just look for something like

1164
01:39:40,625 --> 01:39:42,583
that. Pseudo blah blah blah. You can

1165
01:39:42,583 --> 01:39:44,708
figure it out from there. We'll put the

1166
01:39:44,708 --> 01:39:46,125
picture. Maybe we can fit it in. We'll

1167
01:39:46,125 --> 01:39:47,500
put the picture in there so people can

1168
01:39:47,500 --> 01:39:48,958
can see what they look like because

1169
01:39:48,958 --> 01:39:51,041
they're they're cool. Very torpedo. Has

1170
01:39:51,041 --> 01:39:53,875
anyone ever filmed a crocodile shark?

1171
01:39:55,750 --> 01:39:57,375
Yeah, not that I'm aware of no no

1172
01:39:57,375 --> 01:39:59,041
actually I've never seen any I've never

1173
01:39:59,041 --> 01:40:00,791
actually pictures of him swimming. He's

1174
01:40:00,791 --> 01:40:03,958
always on the deck. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1175
01:40:03,958 --> 01:40:07,541
They sit at. Oh, hey here. Here. I have

1176
01:40:07,541 --> 01:40:08,833
no idea. They're they're kind of pelagic.

1177
01:40:08,833 --> 01:40:10,083
They're anywhere from the surface to a

1178
01:40:10,083 --> 01:40:11,750
couple few hundred meters. Actually,

1179
01:40:11,750 --> 01:40:13,708
here's a here's a plug for my YouTube

1180
01:40:13,708 --> 01:40:16,291
searching for lost sharks. If you go to

1181
01:40:16,291 --> 01:40:19,208
episode two searching for lost sharks

1182
01:40:19,208 --> 01:40:21,916
extinct or alive on my YouTube channel at

1183
01:40:21,916 --> 01:40:24,208
lost shark guy. There's a I

1184
01:40:24,208 --> 01:40:25,708
found some crocodile sharks.

1185
01:40:25,750 --> 01:40:26,375
I found some crocodile sharks at the fish

1186
01:40:26,375 --> 01:40:29,625
market in Ecuador. So you can see you see

1187
01:40:29,625 --> 01:40:32,250
a good picture of holding one right in

1188
01:40:32,250 --> 01:40:34,250
that in that thing. So get some samples

1189
01:40:34,250 --> 01:40:38,125
next time. Yeah, exactly. But more

1190
01:40:38,125 --> 01:40:39,625
importantly, you need to subscribe to the

1191
01:40:39,625 --> 01:40:41,291
channel. The YouTube my YouTube channel.

1192
01:40:41,291 --> 01:40:42,791
I'll I'll subscribe if I get samples.

1193
01:40:43,250 --> 01:40:45,583
Okay, we can work that out. That's not a

1194
01:40:45,583 --> 01:40:48,958
problem. So cool. Well, that's that's

1195
01:40:48,958 --> 01:40:50,333
kind of a nice little sign. Anybody

1196
01:40:50,333 --> 01:40:51,708
listen out there. Any students that wants

1197
01:40:51,708 --> 01:40:53,500
to look for a project. There you go.

1198
01:40:53,500 --> 01:40:55,708
Crocodile sharks and cold water sharks.

1199
01:40:55,750 --> 01:40:58,375
And I can see you're going to be like, oh, I'm going to get a better snaps. See,

1200
01:40:58,375 --> 01:41:00,291
see, I mean, and the thermia is so cool.

1201
01:41:00,666 --> 01:41:03,541
Yeah. I can talk forever about endothermy

1202
01:41:03,541 --> 01:41:07,166
is fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. So so I

1203
01:41:07,166 --> 01:41:09,166
got so we've covered that was one the

1204
01:41:09,166 --> 01:41:11,083
other thing I really wanted to talk to

1205
01:41:11,083 --> 01:41:12,416
you about. And what really prompted me to

1206
01:41:12,416 --> 01:41:13,833
get a hold of you to come on the show is

1207
01:41:13,833 --> 01:41:17,416
sharks and hurricanes has been on the

1208
01:41:17,416 --> 01:41:19,458
social media. And of course, I'm thinking

1209
01:41:19,458 --> 01:41:24,291
shark NATO. And and so I

1210
01:41:24,291 --> 01:41:25,708
have to in your manager.

1211
01:41:25,750 --> 01:41:27,000
There's also your wife happened to be

1212
01:41:27,000 --> 01:41:30,708
promoting that very heavily on social

1213
01:41:30,708 --> 01:41:34,500
media. I hate social media. So I have no

1214
01:41:34,500 --> 01:41:36,750
social media presence. And so my wife,

1215
01:41:36,750 --> 01:41:39,625
Aaron does a wonderful job advertising

1216
01:41:39,625 --> 01:41:41,583
for me. And I appreciate it because I

1217
01:41:41,583 --> 01:41:45,000
will never do that. So can you tell us

1218
01:41:45,000 --> 01:41:46,916
about the sharks and the hurricanes and

1219
01:41:46,916 --> 01:41:49,750
how it's related to shark NATO? Whoo.

1220
01:41:49,958 --> 01:41:51,500
Yeah, no. So it's kind of funny because

1221
01:41:51,500 --> 01:41:53,250
we've been working on this project for

1222
01:41:53,250 --> 01:41:55,666
five years or so. And I

1223
01:41:55,750 --> 01:41:57,208
think the idea has been going even

1224
01:41:57,208 --> 01:41:59,458
further back, not so much hurricanes, but

1225
01:41:59,458 --> 01:42:01,625
the animals as ocean sensors has been

1226
01:42:01,625 --> 01:42:03,875
people have been doing it for a long

1227
01:42:03,875 --> 01:42:06,041
time. And elephant seals have been for

1228
01:42:06,041 --> 01:42:07,791
decades at this point, but carrying

1229
01:42:07,791 --> 01:42:10,291
these, these tags on their head, these

1230
01:42:10,291 --> 01:42:12,708
big tags made by sea mammal research

1231
01:42:12,708 --> 01:42:15,166
unit, Smuru and St. Andrews University,

1232
01:42:15,166 --> 01:42:16,875
Scotland. And they're the only company

1233
01:42:16,875 --> 01:42:19,750
that makes these kind of tags that

1234
01:42:19,750 --> 01:42:22,583
collect oceanographic quality data. And

1235
01:42:22,583 --> 01:42:24,791
the idea is the elephant seals and swim

1236
01:42:24,791 --> 01:42:25,666
come up to the surface

1237
01:42:25,750 --> 01:42:27,166
when they would take these profiles in

1238
01:42:27,166 --> 01:42:30,000
the ocean, going down and back up the

1239
01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:32,250
temperature, the salinity, the depth at

1240
01:42:32,250 --> 01:42:34,958
depth. And then they were sent back to

1241
01:42:34,958 --> 01:42:36,958
the satellites whenever they surface

1242
01:42:36,958 --> 01:42:40,000
these profiles. And they're using that it

1243
01:42:40,000 --> 01:42:42,083
just like a research vessel to go out,

1244
01:42:42,083 --> 01:42:42,875
you can either spend

1245
01:42:43,666 --> 01:42:45,958
10s of thousands of dollars a day to send

1246
01:42:45,958 --> 01:42:48,083
a research vessel out to drop CTD

1247
01:42:48,083 --> 01:42:50,250
profiles, conductivity, temperature,

1248
01:42:50,500 --> 01:42:52,916
depth profiles. It's the basic sensor

1249
01:42:52,916 --> 01:42:56,458
kind of unit that we use in oceanography

1250
01:42:56,458 --> 01:42:58,000
down through the water column to figure

1251
01:42:58,000 --> 01:43:00,208
out what's going on physically

1252
01:43:00,208 --> 01:43:02,541
environment and and so

1253
01:43:03,708 --> 01:43:05,083
especially that in terms of the mixed

1254
01:43:05,083 --> 01:43:06,416
layer depth where the thermocline

1255
01:43:06,416 --> 01:43:08,000
everything is above all the thermocline

1256
01:43:08,000 --> 01:43:09,666
where is isothermal everything is well

1257
01:43:09,666 --> 01:43:11,541
mixed up in the surface of the water and

1258
01:43:11,541 --> 01:43:13,166
that's where all the action happens in

1259
01:43:13,166 --> 01:43:15,666
the ocean for the most part, at least on

1260
01:43:15,666 --> 01:43:16,958
the scale we live on.

1261
01:43:17,750 --> 01:43:21,125
And so the idea is that you can turn

1262
01:43:21,125 --> 01:43:23,041
animals into these ocean observing

1263
01:43:23,041 --> 01:43:26,083
platforms that basically go do the work

1264
01:43:26,083 --> 01:43:27,791
for you. You can put different kinds of

1265
01:43:27,791 --> 01:43:29,708
technology on them that basically record

1266
01:43:29,708 --> 01:43:31,125
here's what's going on in the ocean where

1267
01:43:31,125 --> 01:43:32,083
these animals have been.

1268
01:43:32,458 --> 01:43:34,958
And send it back in real time where the

1269
01:43:34,958 --> 01:43:37,541
actual oceanographers, atmospheric

1270
01:43:37,541 --> 01:43:39,916
scientists can access the data because as

1271
01:43:39,916 --> 01:43:42,500
you know, basically all the climate all

1272
01:43:42,500 --> 01:43:44,583
climate all atmospheric processes weather

1273
01:43:44,583 --> 01:43:46,583
is really kind of driven

1274
01:43:46,583 --> 01:43:48,458
fundamentally by the ocean.

1275
01:43:48,958 --> 01:43:50,250
And so we have to know what's happening

1276
01:43:50,250 --> 01:43:52,125
in the ocean, but we have to know what's

1277
01:43:52,125 --> 01:43:54,125
going on below the surface and so

1278
01:43:54,125 --> 01:43:56,125
satellite oceanography is wonderful, but

1279
01:43:56,125 --> 01:43:57,375
it just sees the skin.

1280
01:43:58,000 --> 01:43:59,666
We have to get something out there to

1281
01:43:59,666 --> 01:44:02,375
look down deep and so you either have to

1282
01:44:02,375 --> 01:44:05,000
send a boat or we can send gliders. For

1283
01:44:05,000 --> 01:44:06,583
example, these, you know, robotic

1284
01:44:06,583 --> 01:44:09,291
platforms that go out and do things go

1285
01:44:09,291 --> 01:44:10,291
down and come up and

1286
01:44:10,291 --> 01:44:11,583
record the same kind of data.

1287
01:44:12,833 --> 01:44:14,583
Or there are these Argo buoys, which are

1288
01:44:14,583 --> 01:44:16,250
these basically like gliders, but they

1289
01:44:16,250 --> 01:44:17,708
just go from the surface down to the

1290
01:44:17,708 --> 01:44:19,833
bottom out in the middle of the ocean and

1291
01:44:19,833 --> 01:44:21,458
they report back what's going on.

1292
01:44:22,666 --> 01:44:24,708
And so the issue is, is that we need more

1293
01:44:24,708 --> 01:44:28,000
data in particular where I'm at in the

1294
01:44:28,000 --> 01:44:30,958
mid Atlantic by the mid Atlantic by from

1295
01:44:30,958 --> 01:44:32,791
Cape Hatteras up to like Cape Cod

1296
01:44:32,791 --> 01:44:35,291
actually has the biggest sea surface

1297
01:44:35,291 --> 01:44:37,041
temperature change annually anywhere in

1298
01:44:37,041 --> 01:44:39,291
the planet. So from the summer in

1299
01:44:39,291 --> 01:44:40,458
Delaware Bay, for example,

1300
01:44:40,458 --> 01:44:41,500
it goes from basically being

1301
01:44:41,541 --> 01:44:44,375
90 like a hot tub 90 degrees Fahrenheit

1302
01:44:44,375 --> 01:44:47,541
and it freezes sometimes in the winter.

1303
01:44:48,041 --> 01:44:50,083
And so the whole we get everything from

1304
01:44:50,083 --> 01:44:52,291
tropical species in the late summer and

1305
01:44:52,291 --> 01:44:54,500
fall to polar species in the winter.

1306
01:44:55,166 --> 01:44:57,291
It's the it's coming from California

1307
01:44:57,291 --> 01:44:59,666
where I spent 20 years as a graduate

1308
01:44:59,666 --> 01:45:00,916
student postdoc everything.

1309
01:45:01,375 --> 01:45:03,291
It's always basically the same.

1310
01:45:03,708 --> 01:45:07,416
It varies by a few degrees here. It

1311
01:45:07,416 --> 01:45:10,666
varies by like 30 degrees Fahrenheit or

1312
01:45:10,666 --> 01:45:13,333
spent centigrade, right? So it goes from

1313
01:45:13,333 --> 01:45:14,958
a hunt almost 100 degrees

1314
01:45:14,958 --> 01:45:16,500
Fahrenheit to almost freezing.

1315
01:45:16,583 --> 01:45:19,708
So it's an incredible turnover. And so

1316
01:45:19,708 --> 01:45:21,916
this has huge implications for

1317
01:45:21,916 --> 01:45:24,291
hurricanes. And so hurricanes are driven

1318
01:45:24,291 --> 01:45:26,500
by ocean heat content, which you think of

1319
01:45:26,500 --> 01:45:28,791
like taking a tube of water from the

1320
01:45:28,791 --> 01:45:30,333
surface to the bottom and you

1321
01:45:30,333 --> 01:45:31,500
measure the heat in that tube.

1322
01:45:31,541 --> 01:45:34,375
That's the ocean heat content is but most

1323
01:45:34,375 --> 01:45:36,291
of that heat is in the surface that mixed

1324
01:45:36,291 --> 01:45:37,583
layer. I'm talking about above the

1325
01:45:37,583 --> 01:45:41,166
thermocline. So that's what really the

1326
01:45:41,166 --> 01:45:43,458
hot surface mixed layers would drive

1327
01:45:43,458 --> 01:45:47,333
stronger hurricanes. And so you need to

1328
01:45:47,333 --> 01:45:51,458
have a kind of a map of the ocean heat

1329
01:45:51,458 --> 01:45:54,500
content to overlay and to use in your

1330
01:45:54,500 --> 01:45:56,625
models because the hurricanes will follow

1331
01:45:56,625 --> 01:45:59,750
that ocean heat content be stronger or go

1332
01:45:59,750 --> 01:46:00,500
in different directions depending on where the heat is.

1333
01:46:00,541 --> 01:46:05,500
And so right now we're limited in a lot

1334
01:46:05,500 --> 01:46:07,666
of these data because it's expensive to

1335
01:46:07,666 --> 01:46:09,250
get boats out there sending a research

1336
01:46:09,250 --> 01:46:11,375
vessel out cost tens of thousands at

1337
01:46:11,375 --> 01:46:14,583
least a day for the most part gliders

1338
01:46:14,583 --> 01:46:16,333
those robotic profilers

1339
01:46:16,333 --> 01:46:16,500
things they cost a lot of money.

1340
01:46:16,541 --> 01:46:20,750
So for the sloping gliders that we use

1341
01:46:20,750 --> 01:46:23,541
that people use they cost 500,000 to

1342
01:46:23,541 --> 01:46:26,791
about a million dollars a pop. Send your

1343
01:46:26,791 --> 01:46:28,916
mouth they go out for and they kind of

1344
01:46:28,916 --> 01:46:31,500
move along back and forth for about

1345
01:46:31,500 --> 01:46:33,500
several weeks to a month tops and those

1346
01:46:33,500 --> 01:46:36,291
every time you deploy them is just maybe

1347
01:46:36,291 --> 01:46:39,875
30 to 50 $60,000 and they have thrown

1348
01:46:39,875 --> 01:46:41,666
away most of their data because they're

1349
01:46:41,666 --> 01:46:44,041
so slow that most of the data they get is

1350
01:46:44,041 --> 01:46:45,500
related to all the other data they already got.

1351
01:46:45,541 --> 01:46:47,833
So they don't get a lot of new

1352
01:46:47,833 --> 01:46:49,333
information for the profile because

1353
01:46:49,333 --> 01:46:51,541
they're so correlated in time and space.

1354
01:46:52,166 --> 01:46:56,000
And so the idea is that we can actually

1355
01:46:56,000 --> 01:47:00,375
use we're helping Smuru that tag company

1356
01:47:00,375 --> 01:47:02,500
they've built this smaller miniaturized

1357
01:47:02,500 --> 01:47:03,583
version of the tag they

1358
01:47:03,583 --> 01:47:04,500
put on elephant seals heads.

1359
01:47:04,541 --> 01:47:07,291
It's miniaturized at the point we can put

1360
01:47:07,291 --> 01:47:09,833
it on shark fins a little bit easier. And

1361
01:47:09,833 --> 01:47:11,958
so in the mid Atlantic by we don't have a

1362
01:47:11,958 --> 01:47:14,041
whole lot of marine mammals air breathers

1363
01:47:14,041 --> 01:47:16,500
so live in the ocean sea turtles there

1364
01:47:16,500 --> 01:47:19,583
there, but they're not as many as you

1365
01:47:19,583 --> 01:47:21,250
might get in other parts, especially if

1366
01:47:21,250 --> 01:47:22,208
you get to higher latitudes.

1367
01:47:23,041 --> 01:47:24,958
And beyond that they're all threatened

1368
01:47:24,958 --> 01:47:27,500
endangered and so to touch them you have

1369
01:47:27,500 --> 01:47:30,250
to go through huge permitting kind of

1370
01:47:30,250 --> 01:47:31,791
hurdles and everything like that, which

1371
01:47:31,791 --> 01:47:33,000
makes it a little bit more challenging.

1372
01:47:33,750 --> 01:47:36,458
And so sharks are everywhere and they're

1373
01:47:36,458 --> 01:47:38,708
basically much more accessible available

1374
01:47:38,708 --> 01:47:41,458
than rain mammals and reptiles. And so

1375
01:47:41,458 --> 01:47:43,500
we've been trying to work to push the

1376
01:47:43,500 --> 01:47:45,166
development of these smaller tags.

1377
01:47:46,125 --> 01:47:49,833
So that ocean observatories that are

1378
01:47:49,833 --> 01:47:52,208
around the planet that collect the data

1379
01:47:52,208 --> 01:47:54,041
that we use to understand climate and

1380
01:47:54,041 --> 01:47:55,791
hurricanes and extreme weather events

1381
01:47:55,791 --> 01:47:58,958
that they can use these small tags in the

1382
01:47:58,958 --> 01:48:00,500
future around the world.

1383
01:48:00,541 --> 01:48:03,375
And so the idea is that in the mid

1384
01:48:03,375 --> 01:48:05,500
Atlantic by at least we will have a fleet

1385
01:48:05,500 --> 01:48:08,916
of tagged sharks swimming around diving

1386
01:48:08,916 --> 01:48:10,791
doing their norm. The sharks are doing

1387
01:48:10,791 --> 01:48:12,625
the normal sharky thing moving up and

1388
01:48:12,625 --> 01:48:13,916
down through the water column.

1389
01:48:14,791 --> 01:48:16,166
And as they're moving up and down through

1390
01:48:16,166 --> 01:48:17,833
the water column, they're collecting data

1391
01:48:17,833 --> 01:48:19,208
and every time they come to the surface

1392
01:48:19,208 --> 01:48:20,458
and their fin breaks the surface.

1393
01:48:20,541 --> 01:48:22,958
They transmit here's what's going on

1394
01:48:22,958 --> 01:48:24,916
where I am right now and that comes in

1395
01:48:24,916 --> 01:48:27,000
real time. There's a pipeline from the

1396
01:48:27,000 --> 01:48:28,541
shark to the satellite to us.

1397
01:48:29,166 --> 01:48:32,000
And then we ship that out to the global

1398
01:48:32,000 --> 01:48:34,875
telecommunication system and integrated

1399
01:48:34,875 --> 01:48:37,958
oceanographic observing system I use

1400
01:48:37,958 --> 01:48:40,541
system which then use of these to build

1401
01:48:40,541 --> 01:48:41,708
these models to understand

1402
01:48:41,708 --> 01:48:43,500
hurricanes and everything else.

1403
01:48:43,541 --> 01:48:45,125
And so there's a lot of end users for

1404
01:48:45,125 --> 01:48:47,208
these data, but our particular again

1405
01:48:47,208 --> 01:48:48,791
focus in the main like bite is hurricanes

1406
01:48:48,791 --> 01:48:50,958
because it's a big issue for obviously

1407
01:48:50,958 --> 01:48:53,791
the south the east coast and the south

1408
01:48:53,791 --> 01:48:55,375
southern southeastern US.

1409
01:48:57,666 --> 01:49:01,125
So you do end up saving a lot of money on

1410
01:49:01,125 --> 01:49:04,625
winches and and wire from not sending

1411
01:49:04,625 --> 01:49:06,666
having to send down the CTD as someone

1412
01:49:06,666 --> 01:49:08,000
who's done that in the Gulf of Mexico.

1413
01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:10,083
Yep. For quite some time. That's a that's

1414
01:49:10,083 --> 01:49:11,416
a big pain in the butt.

1415
01:49:12,041 --> 01:49:13,458
So it's nice to be able to save money and

1416
01:49:13,458 --> 01:49:15,041
time on that because when those break,

1417
01:49:15,041 --> 01:49:17,833
you have to that's a lot of fixing. How

1418
01:49:17,833 --> 01:49:19,458
do you think it'll work with the sharks

1419
01:49:19,458 --> 01:49:21,541
there and if because the sharks don't

1420
01:49:21,541 --> 01:49:23,250
necessarily have to come to the surface.

1421
01:49:23,541 --> 01:49:26,291
Well, Dave, that's a tough question.

1422
01:49:26,958 --> 01:49:29,750
That's the thing is like you when you

1423
01:49:29,750 --> 01:49:32,083
when you look at the diving behaviors of

1424
01:49:32,083 --> 01:49:34,250
mammals and reptiles. It's wonderful air

1425
01:49:34,250 --> 01:49:35,708
breathers because they have to come to

1426
01:49:35,708 --> 01:49:38,583
the surface. Sharks don't but there are

1427
01:49:38,583 --> 01:49:40,250
some sharks that come to the

1428
01:49:40,250 --> 01:49:41,500
surface more often than others.

1429
01:49:41,541 --> 01:49:44,375
And the best part is is when they do come

1430
01:49:44,375 --> 01:49:46,666
to the surface where they surface is

1431
01:49:46,666 --> 01:49:48,791
usually far away from where they did

1432
01:49:48,791 --> 01:49:52,041
before. So each surfacing events provides

1433
01:49:52,041 --> 01:49:55,583
very useful critical information that

1434
01:49:55,583 --> 01:49:57,041
ends up being very valuable.

1435
01:49:57,333 --> 01:49:59,166
So if they came it to the surface every

1436
01:49:59,166 --> 01:50:01,333
few hours, you would end up throwing away

1437
01:50:01,333 --> 01:50:02,666
most of those data because they don't

1438
01:50:02,666 --> 01:50:05,375
give you new information. And so it's

1439
01:50:05,375 --> 01:50:07,500
kind of it's it's a compliment. It's not

1440
01:50:07,500 --> 01:50:10,500
going to ever replace the Argo buoys or the gliders or the sharks.

1441
01:50:10,541 --> 01:50:17,416
It's basically like for $50,000, you can

1442
01:50:17,416 --> 01:50:19,291
put out 20 of these tags or something

1443
01:50:19,291 --> 01:50:22,250
like that and they last for months and

1444
01:50:22,250 --> 01:50:24,250
they will swim around doing their thing

1445
01:50:24,250 --> 01:50:26,250
and you'll get intermittent surfacing

1446
01:50:26,250 --> 01:50:28,250
surfacing events all over the place.

1447
01:50:28,500 --> 01:50:30,000
And the idea is that will fill in all the

1448
01:50:30,000 --> 01:50:31,250
gaps that we don't have other

1449
01:50:31,250 --> 01:50:34,500
observations. How long when they surface, how long they have to be at the surface to download 10 seconds.

1450
01:50:35,541 --> 01:50:42,791
Basically, oh, really quick then. Oh,

1451
01:50:43,083 --> 01:50:44,625
yeah. Yeah. I mean, seconds, you know,

1452
01:50:44,625 --> 01:50:46,541
maybe be a few seconds for the most part.

1453
01:50:46,541 --> 01:50:49,625
It's again, this is kind of a it's it's

1454
01:50:49,625 --> 01:50:51,250
it ends up being very complicated because

1455
01:50:51,250 --> 01:50:53,333
it has to do with satellite coverage

1456
01:50:53,333 --> 01:50:55,375
where it when does the shark surface

1457
01:50:55,375 --> 01:50:55,500
relative to where the satellites
are when it surfaces.

1458
01:50:56,541 --> 01:51:01,750
You have to have very precise locations.

1459
01:51:02,208 --> 01:51:04,333
And so the tags we're using a fast lock

1460
01:51:04,333 --> 01:51:06,833
GPS. In addition to these Argos

1461
01:51:06,833 --> 01:51:08,500
transmitters, which is kind of like these

1462
01:51:08,500 --> 01:51:10,375
fancy things where basically a GPS gives

1463
01:51:10,375 --> 01:51:13,291
you a location within 50 meters or so.

1464
01:51:14,125 --> 01:51:15,708
And that tells you exactly where this

1465
01:51:15,708 --> 01:51:18,666
profile was from, you know, knock on

1466
01:51:18,666 --> 01:51:19,500
wood. But right now we've only because of COVID we got this grant right when COVID hit.

1467
01:51:19,541 --> 01:51:27,708
COVID basically slammed everything

1468
01:51:27,708 --> 01:51:29,666
everything shut down and it's those only

1469
01:51:29,666 --> 01:51:32,500
last year we put out the first few tags

1470
01:51:32,500 --> 01:51:35,583
and they it was a it was it

1471
01:51:35,583 --> 01:51:37,000
none of it worked very well.

1472
01:51:37,333 --> 01:51:38,500
But that's because we figured out what it

1473
01:51:38,500 --> 01:51:40,375
was attachment the tags the tags have

1474
01:51:40,375 --> 01:51:43,500
been positioned up my we figured that out. And then we put them we put out a few more this year.

1475
01:51:44,541 --> 01:51:49,416
They were transmitting like champions. We

1476
01:51:49,416 --> 01:51:52,000
got a couple profiles. And then they went

1477
01:51:52,000 --> 01:51:55,000
quiet and we don't know why. Where we

1478
01:51:55,000 --> 01:51:58,291
think we figured it out. But what's

1479
01:51:58,291 --> 01:52:00,500
frustrating was that we put these tags

1480
01:52:00,500 --> 01:52:04,666
out in May late May of this year, 2025

1481
01:52:04,666 --> 01:52:07,166
off of basically 45 miles

1482
01:52:07,166 --> 01:52:07,500
off of Ocean City, Maryland.

1483
01:52:08,541 --> 01:52:13,333
And the sharks were just kicking up and

1484
01:52:13,333 --> 01:52:14,833
down the continental shelf mid

1485
01:52:14,833 --> 01:52:16,541
continental shelf swimming around doing

1486
01:52:16,541 --> 01:52:18,416
great job. And then they went quiet. And

1487
01:52:18,416 --> 01:52:20,625
then on the fourth of July weekend, one

1488
01:52:20,625 --> 01:52:22,791
of our tag sharks was caught off of

1489
01:52:22,791 --> 01:52:23,500
Nantucket, Massachusetts.

1490
01:52:23,541 --> 01:52:27,333
And we got a picture few pictures sent to

1491
01:52:27,333 --> 01:52:30,083
us by Jeff Niebohn Toby Curtis and these

1492
01:52:30,083 --> 01:52:32,000
other, you know, shark scientists again,

1493
01:52:32,000 --> 01:52:33,500
this small community. They said, Hey,

1494
01:52:33,500 --> 01:52:37,916
whose tag is this like, it's us. And, and

1495
01:52:37,916 --> 01:52:39,500
that we never heard from the tag.

1496
01:52:40,208 --> 01:52:41,833
And so it was out of this water. And so

1497
01:52:41,833 --> 01:52:43,583
that told us that it wasn't doing what it

1498
01:52:43,583 --> 01:52:46,333
should do. Right, but they let it go,

1499
01:52:46,333 --> 01:52:49,208
which is good. And that tag actually just

1500
01:52:49,208 --> 01:52:49,500
recently just a few days ago started talking again.

1501
01:52:49,541 --> 01:52:54,791
And so I don't we working. Yeah, so we're

1502
01:52:54,791 --> 01:52:56,916
this is this is this is we're figuring it

1503
01:52:56,916 --> 01:52:58,583
out. Right. And so we're in the kind of

1504
01:52:58,583 --> 01:53:00,416
very steep part of the learning curve.

1505
01:53:01,250 --> 01:53:02,791
And we're actually heading out next week

1506
01:53:02,791 --> 01:53:06,500
on a vessel called the RV Robert Gray,

1507
01:53:07,041 --> 01:53:09,000
which we got through sea keep, we got

1508
01:53:09,000 --> 01:53:11,750
access through, it's through sea keepers,

1509
01:53:11,750 --> 01:53:13,500
which is a great group that connects, you know, yachts up to researchers and things like that.

1510
01:53:13,541 --> 01:53:18,625
It's a new boat. And so we're going to go

1511
01:53:18,625 --> 01:53:20,125
out for a few days, going to go out to

1512
01:53:20,125 --> 01:53:22,583
the outer shelf, have some fun, try to

1513
01:53:22,583 --> 01:53:24,500
see how many tags we can get out. We have

1514
01:53:24,500 --> 01:53:28,375
five to seven, eight tags. What kind of

1515
01:53:28,375 --> 01:53:29,333
sharks you putting them on?

1516
01:53:30,875 --> 01:53:33,000
Well, it depends, right? So we actually

1517
01:53:33,000 --> 01:53:35,833
recently published a paper, which I can

1518
01:53:35,833 --> 01:53:37,708
send you if you're interested in it.

1519
01:53:37,708 --> 01:53:39,000
Absolutely. But it was all about

1520
01:53:39,000 --> 01:53:39,500
considerations for using sharks as ocean observing platforms as much or as my

1521
01:53:39,541 --> 01:53:46,000
grad student Caroline word, a key who's

1522
01:53:46,000 --> 01:53:48,083
doing this, she calls them soups, you

1523
01:53:48,083 --> 01:53:49,541
know, sharks as ocean observing

1524
01:53:49,541 --> 01:53:52,500
platforms. And so, or as soups. And so

1525
01:53:52,500 --> 01:53:54,291
basically, that whole process was using

1526
01:53:54,291 --> 01:53:57,375
existing tag data from many, many

1527
01:53:57,375 --> 01:53:59,583
different research groups to look at how

1528
01:53:59,583 --> 01:54:02,375
would we predict or how can we judge

1529
01:54:02,375 --> 01:54:04,333
whether one species or another is going

1530
01:54:04,333 --> 01:54:04,500
to be better for carrying these tags. And so it has to do with the vertical movements, how much time they're at the
surface of the ocean, but it's really, really important to have that information in mind that you can do that.

1531
01:54:04,541 --> 01:54:12,750
Our goal for insurance contributions

1532
01:54:12,750 --> 01:54:17,166
things, our goal is the third information

1533
01:54:17,166 --> 01:54:24,208
that we end up being close to, think

1534
01:54:24,208 --> 01:54:24,375
about nations as giving up the tools to

1535
01:54:24,375 --> 01:54:27,958
allow equipment,ribe thrive and do some

1536
01:54:27,958 --> 01:54:28,250
other things whether it's helpful or functional

1537
01:54:34,541 --> 01:54:36,958
now chewing on that challenge and trying

1538
01:54:36,958 --> 01:54:38,000
to get our way through the

1539
01:54:38,000 --> 01:54:39,166
gristle of that challenge.

1540
01:54:39,791 --> 01:54:43,833
So why shark so again why sharks and and

1541
01:54:43,833 --> 01:54:45,000
not marine mammals?

1542
01:54:45,500 --> 01:54:46,583
Because we don't have a lot of

1543
01:54:46,583 --> 01:54:48,916
them in our area. There's no the gray

1544
01:54:48,916 --> 01:54:50,541
seals will show up briefly in

1545
01:54:50,541 --> 01:54:51,625
the winter and other than that

1546
01:54:51,625 --> 01:54:53,916
there's none. There are sea turtles but

1547
01:54:53,916 --> 01:54:56,000
you know how do you catch sea turtles

1548
01:54:56,000 --> 01:54:57,458
easily and permitting

1549
01:54:57,583 --> 01:54:59,500
it's just it's a nightmare. Yeah. Sharks

1550
01:54:59,500 --> 01:55:01,666
for the most part you know

1551
01:55:01,666 --> 01:55:02,833
for better for ill they're a

1552
01:55:02,875 --> 01:55:04,875
lot easier to get permitting requirements

1553
01:55:04,875 --> 01:55:07,250
are a lot lower. Gotcha

1554
01:55:07,250 --> 01:55:08,833
interesting. I thought it'd be

1555
01:55:08,833 --> 01:55:10,000
interesting you probably don't see

1556
01:55:10,000 --> 01:55:11,833
basking sharks that much in your area.

1557
01:55:12,208 --> 01:55:13,708
Not in our area but up

1558
01:55:13,708 --> 01:55:15,666
north a little bit Massachusetts. Yeah

1559
01:55:15,666 --> 01:55:17,166
that seemed to be a good one

1560
01:55:17,166 --> 01:55:18,000
because I'm thinking like more

1561
01:55:18,000 --> 01:55:19,125
like you're probably like dealing with

1562
01:55:19,125 --> 01:55:22,333
dusky's sandbars you know.

1563
01:55:22,333 --> 01:55:23,208
Yeah none of them come to the

1564
01:55:23,208 --> 01:55:24,750
surface we're hoping I mean we actually

1565
01:55:24,750 --> 01:55:25,916
caught what our very first

1566
01:55:25,916 --> 01:55:27,583
day out we went out 40-50

1567
01:55:27,583 --> 01:55:28,666
miles of the image when we started

1568
01:55:28,666 --> 01:55:30,583
putting chum in the water. The first

1569
01:55:30,583 --> 01:55:31,416
shark to show up was a

1570
01:55:31,500 --> 01:55:35,125
juvenile white shark. Oh I was not

1571
01:55:35,125 --> 01:55:36,375
expecting that we caught a

1572
01:55:36,375 --> 01:55:37,541
caught one we pulled it up

1573
01:55:37,833 --> 01:55:40,666
and I was like well that's unexpected and

1574
01:55:40,666 --> 01:55:42,666
in the next day we saw

1575
01:55:42,666 --> 01:55:44,500
another one. Another juvenile

1576
01:55:44,500 --> 01:55:46,458
white shark. Yeah a different one. Yeah a

1577
01:55:46,458 --> 01:55:47,541
different one several of them

1578
01:55:47,541 --> 01:55:49,208
and and the one shark we tagged

1579
01:55:49,208 --> 01:55:51,250
it with a spot tag which is a tag that

1580
01:55:51,250 --> 01:55:52,291
transmits when the fins of

1581
01:55:52,291 --> 01:55:53,333
the surface it's like what

1582
01:55:53,333 --> 01:55:55,708
boasterge uses and we also put a mini pat

1583
01:55:55,708 --> 01:55:57,000
which is a pop off tag that

1584
01:55:57,000 --> 01:55:58,250
records the vertical behavior

1585
01:55:58,958 --> 01:56:01,458
and the shark has been doing a bang up

1586
01:56:01,458 --> 01:56:02,541
job transmitting it's

1587
01:56:02,541 --> 01:56:03,750
been going up to Cape Cod

1588
01:56:03,750 --> 01:56:05,958
and back to like you know New Jersey back

1589
01:56:05,958 --> 01:56:07,958
along kind of that the

1590
01:56:07,958 --> 01:56:09,625
you know gulf of like the

1591
01:56:09,625 --> 01:56:11,125
mid-line fight basically all over the

1592
01:56:11,125 --> 01:56:12,916
place so the reason we did

1593
01:56:12,916 --> 01:56:13,916
that was to figure out maybe

1594
01:56:13,916 --> 01:56:15,333
juvenile white sharks would be good for

1595
01:56:15,333 --> 01:56:16,458
carrying these tags because

1596
01:56:16,458 --> 01:56:18,000
actually counterintuitively

1597
01:56:18,375 --> 01:56:20,041
the neurotic environment so the

1598
01:56:20,041 --> 01:56:23,000
environment on the shelf is actually we

1599
01:56:23,000 --> 01:56:24,500
have less data for those

1600
01:56:24,625 --> 01:56:26,333
areas than the open ocean in many

1601
01:56:26,333 --> 01:56:27,375
examples because of those

1602
01:56:27,375 --> 01:56:29,125
argo buoys that I was talking

1603
01:56:29,125 --> 01:56:32,291
about earlier. Wow that's that's amazing

1604
01:56:32,291 --> 01:56:33,541
whether if you went out there

1605
01:56:33,541 --> 01:56:35,041
to try to catch a white shark

1606
01:56:35,375 --> 01:56:37,250
I would it would never happen never

1607
01:56:37,250 --> 01:56:39,416
happen it will never happen again

1608
01:56:39,416 --> 01:56:45,250
did you did you talk to uh Greg Skomal up

1609
01:56:45,250 --> 01:56:46,166
in New England or anybody

1610
01:56:46,166 --> 01:56:47,791
about it? No no not yet I mean

1611
01:56:47,791 --> 01:56:49,500
it's it's it's mainly because we weren't

1612
01:56:49,500 --> 01:56:51,000
expecting any of that right

1613
01:56:51,000 --> 01:56:52,833
and they see the big ones so I

1614
01:56:52,875 --> 01:56:54,750
mean Toby Curtis the people they've been

1615
01:56:54,750 --> 01:56:55,500
working on the juvenile

1616
01:56:55,500 --> 01:56:56,541
white sharks and those

1617
01:56:56,541 --> 01:56:58,041
groups we've been talking with them and

1618
01:56:58,041 --> 01:56:58,708
we're actually been working

1619
01:56:58,708 --> 01:57:00,250
with them we've been trying

1620
01:57:00,250 --> 01:57:02,375
to figure out their their collaborators

1621
01:57:02,375 --> 01:57:03,541
on the sharks as ocean

1622
01:57:03,541 --> 01:57:06,000
sensors he and Toby Curtis and

1623
01:57:06,000 --> 01:57:09,000
his the group he's associated with at the

1624
01:57:09,000 --> 01:57:10,416
the SOFO the South Fork

1625
01:57:10,416 --> 01:57:11,583
Natural History Museum in

1626
01:57:11,583 --> 01:57:14,958
Long Island and so once we get to the

1627
01:57:14,958 --> 01:57:17,166
point of where we get the

1628
01:57:17,166 --> 01:57:19,125
technology and the approach

1629
01:57:19,291 --> 01:57:21,000
develops to the point where we can start

1630
01:57:21,000 --> 01:57:23,875
to operationalize it we want to give them

1631
01:57:23,875 --> 01:57:26,500
tags to put out we want to give tags to

1632
01:57:26,500 --> 01:57:29,000
multiple any group that wants them and so

1633
01:57:29,000 --> 01:57:30,458
like there's actually a lot of interest

1634
01:57:30,458 --> 01:57:32,541
in the Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean

1635
01:57:32,541 --> 01:57:35,291
because they don't have money to put out

1636
01:57:35,291 --> 01:57:38,500
gliders right and or big research vessels

1637
01:57:38,500 --> 01:57:40,500
so it's like they can afford 20 or 30

1638
01:57:40,500 --> 01:57:42,375
thousand dollars in tags that will last

1639
01:57:42,375 --> 01:57:44,500
for a while and animals come around but

1640
01:57:44,500 --> 01:57:46,875
they can't necessarily afford a 500,000

1641
01:57:46,875 --> 01:57:47,791
or million dollar glider

1642
01:57:50,041 --> 01:57:51,000
and I'm not sure if they're going to be

1643
01:57:51,000 --> 01:57:51,333
able to get a little white sharks I don't

1644
01:57:51,333 --> 01:57:52,833
know if they want a little white sharks I

1645
01:57:52,833 --> 01:57:54,333
know I know Bay here in

1646
01:57:54,333 --> 01:57:55,625
Monterey where we can.

1647
01:57:56,000 --> 01:58:01,250
I'll be stepping on everyone's toes by

1648
01:58:01,250 --> 01:58:03,250
going. Oh I got it. If I even look at

1649
01:58:03,250 --> 01:58:04,791
those juvenile white sharks I'll be

1650
01:58:04,791 --> 01:58:06,916
offending half the population. Yeah.

1651
01:58:07,166 --> 01:58:10,166
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's been a big. Yeah.

1652
01:58:11,000 --> 01:58:13,125
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can well obviously

1653
01:58:13,125 --> 01:58:14,375
you know I understand that whole

1654
01:58:14,375 --> 01:58:16,666
situation here it's like one of those.

1655
01:58:19,833 --> 01:58:21,000
inf

1656
01:58:21,000 --> 01:58:22,791
more

1657
01:58:33,625 --> 01:58:36,041
mentioned

1658
01:58:42,750 --> 01:58:45,791
white shark politics. Oh, I don't even

1659
01:58:45,791 --> 01:58:47,083
know the half of it. I

1660
01:58:47,083 --> 01:58:48,041
mean, because I've kind of

1661
01:58:48,041 --> 01:58:50,416
navigated I kind of skirted the

1662
01:58:50,416 --> 01:58:51,583
white shark world, I kind of

1663
01:58:51,583 --> 01:58:53,125
just flirt with it. I kind of

1664
01:58:53,166 --> 01:58:54,083
bounced around on the

1665
01:58:54,083 --> 01:58:55,541
peripheral, right? And so I

1666
01:58:55,541 --> 01:58:57,083
don't quite ever get fully

1667
01:58:57,083 --> 01:58:58,625
involved and invested in a

1668
01:58:58,833 --> 01:59:00,500
specific working out for me.

1669
01:59:00,958 --> 01:59:02,125
Best you don't, you know,

1670
01:59:03,833 --> 01:59:04,541
juveniles off the Atlantic

1671
01:59:04,541 --> 01:59:04,833
coast.

1672
01:59:06,291 --> 01:59:08,083
Yeah, it's just, yeah, it's

1673
01:59:08,083 --> 01:59:09,250
amazing. It's amazing. So,

1674
01:59:09,333 --> 01:59:12,791
it's been really great having you on the

1675
01:59:12,791 --> 01:59:14,833
show here. I want to definitely got to

1676
01:59:14,833 --> 01:59:16,166
have you come back and talk about like

1677
01:59:16,166 --> 01:59:16,958
well like little white

1678
01:59:16,958 --> 01:59:19,375
shark politics and stuff. But I want to

1679
01:59:19,375 --> 01:59:21,666
ask you like, we're, what advice would

1680
01:59:21,666 --> 01:59:22,916
you have for for a young

1681
01:59:22,916 --> 01:59:24,708
person is considering, you

1682
01:59:24,708 --> 01:59:26,750
know, maybe pursuing a PhD or going into

1683
01:59:26,750 --> 01:59:28,375
marine science? Do you

1684
01:59:28,375 --> 01:59:29,208
have any advice for him?

1685
01:59:30,666 --> 01:59:33,458
Oh, I have so much advice run like hell.

1686
01:59:33,458 --> 01:59:37,791
So it's, it's, it's a wonderful,

1687
01:59:38,500 --> 01:59:40,708
wonderful I am the happiest person

1688
01:59:40,708 --> 01:59:41,541
probably in the world.

1689
01:59:41,541 --> 01:59:42,416
I could never imagine

1690
01:59:42,500 --> 01:59:44,583
being happier. And I feel so lucky to

1691
01:59:44,583 --> 01:59:47,666
have landed in the position I have. I'm,

1692
01:59:47,666 --> 01:59:50,125
I'm just so lucky. And so much of that is

1693
01:59:50,125 --> 01:59:52,916
because of the support of people who have

1694
01:59:52,916 --> 01:59:54,333
let me get here. And

1695
01:59:54,333 --> 01:59:56,708
that's, you know, you Dave and Greg, and

1696
01:59:56,708 --> 01:59:59,958
Barbara block and Robert Lee, Bob Lee,

1697
01:59:59,958 --> 02:00:02,333
and all these people that have been so

1698
02:00:02,333 --> 02:00:06,125
help you, right. And so you realize that

1699
02:00:06,125 --> 02:00:08,250
it's it's it's it takes a village to make

1700
02:00:08,250 --> 02:00:11,458
a shark scientist, right. And so I'm only

1701
02:00:11,458 --> 02:00:13,041
here because of the people that invested

1702
02:00:13,041 --> 02:00:16,916
in me and trusted me. And so find those

1703
02:00:16,916 --> 02:00:18,875
people that give you good advice and

1704
02:00:18,875 --> 02:00:22,791
listen to them and realize there's no way

1705
02:00:22,791 --> 02:00:24,041
from, you know, point

1706
02:00:24,041 --> 02:00:24,333
eight or nine to nine.

1707
02:00:24,333 --> 02:00:26,208
And I think that's the point B. It's

1708
02:00:26,208 --> 02:00:28,541
never a linear path. And we all follow

1709
02:00:28,541 --> 02:00:30,708
our own paths. If you want to do it,

1710
02:00:31,125 --> 02:00:33,000
stick with it, and you'll make it work.

1711
02:00:33,625 --> 02:00:36,500
And just be open. Say yes to

1712
02:00:36,500 --> 02:00:38,458
opportunities and don't start out being

1713
02:00:38,458 --> 02:00:41,166
looking to do shark science, look to do

1714
02:00:41,166 --> 02:00:44,541
good science. Yeah, do learn skills.

1715
02:00:45,375 --> 02:00:47,333
Learn questions. What are the questions?

1716
02:00:47,541 --> 02:00:49,041
What are the theories? Your interest?

1717
02:00:49,375 --> 02:00:51,250
What makes you excited when you read a

1718
02:00:51,250 --> 02:00:52,500
research paper or whatever?

1719
02:00:54,375 --> 02:00:56,458
Just do what you do and do the best job

1720
02:00:56,458 --> 02:00:58,458
you can. And if you keep doing that,

1721
02:00:58,458 --> 02:01:00,416
things will end up working out. But it

1722
02:01:00,416 --> 02:01:02,333
might not be in the path you think. And

1723
02:01:02,333 --> 02:01:04,958
so the open different paths and you never

1724
02:01:04,958 --> 02:01:06,416
know where you're going to end up. So

1725
02:01:06,416 --> 02:01:08,375
that's the goal. You will get there if

1726
02:01:08,375 --> 02:01:09,291
you stick with it.

1727
02:01:09,291 --> 02:01:10,583
That's awesome. What I think.

1728
02:01:11,208 --> 02:01:12,375
And last question, quick,

1729
02:01:12,375 --> 02:01:13,416
where do you see your career?

1730
02:01:14,916 --> 02:01:16,083
The next 1020 years.

1731
02:01:16,750 --> 02:01:18,708
I don't know. I can't even tomorrow. I

1732
02:01:18,708 --> 02:01:20,791
can't even get through. I'm trying to do

1733
02:01:20,791 --> 02:01:23,500
it. My Google calendar is like filled up.

1734
02:01:23,500 --> 02:01:24,666
I mean, I never thought that it'd be the

1735
02:01:24,666 --> 02:01:26,458
point where I'm I'm overwhelmed. But it's

1736
02:01:26,458 --> 02:01:27,750
like there's so it's just meetings.

1737
02:01:28,625 --> 02:01:29,958
Meetings all the time meeting meeting

1738
02:01:29,958 --> 02:01:32,250
meeting but it's good. It's all great and

1739
02:01:32,250 --> 02:01:34,041
wonderful first world problems, as they

1740
02:01:34,041 --> 02:01:36,250
say, but I'm I'm hopefully going to be

1741
02:01:36,250 --> 02:01:38,000
right where I am keeping doing what I'm

1742
02:01:38,000 --> 02:01:40,166
doing. I'm really happy being where I am

1743
02:01:40,166 --> 02:01:41,916
at University of Delaware. I feel really

1744
02:01:41,916 --> 02:01:44,208
lucky to have landed in this school with

1745
02:01:44,208 --> 02:01:45,166
this group of people.

1746
02:01:45,166 --> 02:01:46,625
It's a very supportive group.

1747
02:01:47,166 --> 02:01:50,166
And it's a great place to do the work. I

1748
02:01:50,166 --> 02:01:52,750
do. I my office looks out on the ocean

1749
02:01:52,750 --> 02:01:55,750
and others the dock and the sharks. I can

1750
02:01:55,750 --> 02:01:58,125
actually catch sharks off the dock. So

1751
02:01:58,125 --> 02:02:00,291
it's just I don't have to go anywhere.

1752
02:02:00,541 --> 02:02:03,541
And so my goal from the beginning has

1753
02:02:03,541 --> 02:02:05,750
been from when I was at Maslan. I would

1754
02:02:05,750 --> 02:02:07,000
just like to be able to do anything

1755
02:02:07,000 --> 02:02:08,000
related to my field.

1756
02:02:08,166 --> 02:02:11,375
And then if I can do it in my backyard,

1757
02:02:11,666 --> 02:02:13,375
that's even better. It's like traveling

1758
02:02:13,375 --> 02:02:16,041
is super fun. I love it. But it's also as

1759
02:02:16,041 --> 02:02:17,500
you get older and have family, you kind

1760
02:02:17,500 --> 02:02:21,000
of like, oh, that's the way across the

1761
02:02:21,000 --> 02:02:23,291
world. I mean, but it's I did that when I

1762
02:02:23,291 --> 02:02:25,666
was younger. And I loved it. And I will I

1763
02:02:25,666 --> 02:02:27,541
will continue doing it when I can. But

1764
02:02:27,541 --> 02:02:29,250
it's now it's like just being able to do

1765
02:02:29,250 --> 02:02:31,708
what I need to do. Where I'm at is really

1766
02:02:31,708 --> 02:02:35,333
satisfying. And it's like the freedom you

1767
02:02:35,333 --> 02:02:36,291
have being a scientist.

1768
02:02:36,333 --> 02:02:39,416
Yeah, to ask the questions you get you

1769
02:02:39,416 --> 02:02:41,708
want to ask for sure. It's all about

1770
02:02:41,708 --> 02:02:43,541
creativity. And actually, it was Mark

1771
02:02:43,541 --> 02:02:46,333
Meekin who told me this. And it was when

1772
02:02:46,333 --> 02:02:47,750
I right when I found out I got this

1773
02:02:47,750 --> 02:02:50,041
University of Delaware job, we were I ran

1774
02:02:50,041 --> 02:02:52,166
into he was at Hopkins Marine Station,

1775
02:02:52,166 --> 02:02:54,541
Stanford University, giving a talk. And

1776
02:02:54,541 --> 02:02:57,250
he was out with with my advisor and other

1777
02:02:57,250 --> 02:02:58,875
cohorts. And I was out with my wife

1778
02:02:58,875 --> 02:03:01,250
celebrating. And I got the job and I ran

1779
02:03:01,250 --> 02:03:02,666
to him. He's like, and I was talking to

1780
02:03:02,666 --> 02:03:04,416
him. He was like, you know, the only

1781
02:03:04,416 --> 02:03:05,291
limitation is your imagination.

1782
02:03:05,333 --> 02:03:08,750
And being able to figure out how to make

1783
02:03:08,750 --> 02:03:11,125
it work. And it's just it's up to you to

1784
02:03:11,125 --> 02:03:13,958
make it work. Yeah. So and I still kind

1785
02:03:13,958 --> 02:03:15,666
of am thinking about that. I'm like, you

1786
02:03:15,666 --> 02:03:17,083
know, there's no right or wrong way to do

1787
02:03:17,083 --> 02:03:18,583
it. I just have to figure out how to make

1788
02:03:18,583 --> 02:03:21,125
it work. And so you go out and you hustle

1789
02:03:21,125 --> 02:03:23,125
and you if you want to do it, you make it

1790
02:03:23,125 --> 02:03:25,416
happen. Yeah, I love that. That's great.

1791
02:03:25,625 --> 02:03:27,708
Great advice there. And great. So thank

1792
02:03:27,708 --> 02:03:29,458
you so much for coming on and we'll have

1793
02:03:29,458 --> 02:03:30,708
you back. Definitely have you back in

1794
02:03:30,708 --> 02:03:32,250
some time and tell us more about how your

1795
02:03:32,250 --> 02:03:33,291
sharks and hurricanes are going and and.

1796
02:03:33,333 --> 02:03:37,000
And maybe they'll make you may make a

1797
02:03:37,000 --> 02:03:38,833
movie shark NATO eight or nine out of it.

1798
02:03:38,833 --> 02:03:41,166
So yeah, yeah, yeah. Knock on wood.

1799
02:03:41,166 --> 02:03:45,750
Thanks. Thank you so much. Of course,

1800
02:03:45,750 --> 02:03:47,500
it's a pleasure anytime. Thank you,

1801
02:03:47,500 --> 02:03:49,000
Aaron, for joining us on today's episode

1802
02:03:49,000 --> 02:03:51,500
of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Dave, it was

1803
02:03:51,500 --> 02:03:52,875
fantastic interview. You got to hear

1804
02:03:52,875 --> 02:03:54,791
about sharks and hurricanes. What'd you

1805
02:03:54,791 --> 02:03:56,666
think? Oh, I love it. It was great. It

1806
02:03:56,666 --> 02:03:58,125
was it was nice. It was well, of course,

1807
02:03:58,125 --> 02:03:59,500
it's always nice having somebody on those

1808
02:03:59,500 --> 02:04:00,291
former student. Yeah.

1809
02:04:00,583 --> 02:04:02,791
Moss landing. We have a lot of a lot of

1810
02:04:02,791 --> 02:04:05,625
shared interest there. Alumni. We've all

1811
02:04:05,625 --> 02:04:07,458
had this great guy. It was our advisor.

1812
02:04:08,333 --> 02:04:10,250
Uh, me back in the eighties and Aaron in

1813
02:04:10,250 --> 02:04:12,541
the early two thousands. Um, no, it was

1814
02:04:12,541 --> 02:04:13,916
great. It was really good having him on

1815
02:04:13,916 --> 02:04:15,166
catching up hearing about the different

1816
02:04:15,166 --> 02:04:16,750
research he's doing. I think it was

1817
02:04:16,750 --> 02:04:18,125
really interesting. He talked a bit about

1818
02:04:18,125 --> 02:04:19,666
the salmon sharks, which is something

1819
02:04:19,666 --> 02:04:22,375
that we've had come up, I think a couple

1820
02:04:22,375 --> 02:04:24,416
times on some of the other podcast. But I

1821
02:04:24,416 --> 02:04:27,333
deal with here in Moss Landing all the

1822
02:04:27,333 --> 02:04:29,125
time where I get this time of year, I get

1823
02:04:29,125 --> 02:04:29,291
phone calls or people.

1824
02:04:29,333 --> 02:04:31,833
Want to know about this little white

1825
02:04:31,833 --> 02:04:33,791
shark that washed up in the beach. It's a

1826
02:04:33,791 --> 02:04:35,875
salmon shark. I thought they're and gave

1827
02:04:35,875 --> 02:04:38,375
a very compelling explanation on what the

1828
02:04:38,375 --> 02:04:41,791
whole issue is with the warming of the

1829
02:04:41,791 --> 02:04:45,125
blood and the white muscle, the red

1830
02:04:45,125 --> 02:04:47,333
muscle fat. Just for that alone, it's

1831
02:04:47,333 --> 02:04:49,375
worth listening, really listening to the

1832
02:04:49,375 --> 02:04:52,125
episode on that. And then, of course, the

1833
02:04:52,125 --> 02:04:54,625
this kind of innovative technology that

1834
02:04:54,625 --> 02:04:56,708
looking at with the sharks and the

1835
02:04:56,708 --> 02:04:59,291
hurricanes and the and everything. I think it's a great way to get the

1836
02:04:59,291 --> 02:05:00,666
thing. It's really it's it's just it's

1837
02:05:00,666 --> 02:05:03,166
just to me being around as long as I have

1838
02:05:03,166 --> 02:05:05,916
is that it it just shows how advanced the

1839
02:05:05,916 --> 02:05:07,500
technology is that the fact that it can

1840
02:05:07,500 --> 02:05:11,041
use try to put sensors on sharks so they

1841
02:05:11,041 --> 02:05:12,625
can like figure out what the weather's

1842
02:05:12,625 --> 02:05:14,375
doing to determine. It's amazing. Yeah,

1843
02:05:14,625 --> 02:05:16,791
it's amazing. That's the kind of cool

1844
02:05:16,791 --> 02:05:18,833
stuff that's really really really neat to

1845
02:05:18,833 --> 02:05:21,708
see. Um, and hear more about. So

1846
02:05:21,708 --> 02:05:23,125
hopefully I'll have Aaron on maybe one of

1847
02:05:23,125 --> 02:05:25,375
his students later on talk a little bit

1848
02:05:25,375 --> 02:05:27,166
about the about some of the advances

1849
02:05:27,166 --> 02:05:27,916
they're making in some

1850
02:05:27,916 --> 02:05:29,291
of these areas. Yeah.

1851
02:05:29,291 --> 02:05:30,750
And they're talking, you know, we won't

1852
02:05:30,750 --> 02:05:32,583
talk about right now, but some of the

1853
02:05:32,583 --> 02:05:33,958
future episodes that we might be able to

1854
02:05:33,958 --> 02:05:36,291
do with some of the people in Aaron's

1855
02:05:36,291 --> 02:05:39,041
lab, they're looking on like cutting edge

1856
02:05:39,041 --> 02:05:42,125
innovative research, which I'm looking

1857
02:05:42,125 --> 02:05:44,208
forward to diving into if we have the

1858
02:05:44,208 --> 02:05:46,666
chance as as it's a little early now for

1859
02:05:46,666 --> 02:05:48,791
that to talk about it. But once we're

1860
02:05:48,791 --> 02:05:50,916
able to, I think once they start getting

1861
02:05:50,916 --> 02:05:52,791
some results and some conclusions, maybe

1862
02:05:52,791 --> 02:05:54,250
a paper published will be able to talk

1863
02:05:54,250 --> 02:05:55,916
about it. Yeah, I think it's I think it's

1864
02:05:55,916 --> 02:05:58,666
wonderful to see a monitoring program

1865
02:05:58,666 --> 02:05:59,291
used with sharks and the

1866
02:05:59,333 --> 02:06:01,000
sharks. I think that's pretty cool. And

1867
02:06:01,000 --> 02:06:02,291
some of the some of the challenges

1868
02:06:02,291 --> 02:06:03,875
they're facing with that, you know,

1869
02:06:03,875 --> 02:06:05,208
sharks don't come to the surface as often

1870
02:06:05,208 --> 02:06:09,041
as as mammals or sea turtle. Um, and so

1871
02:06:09,041 --> 02:06:11,041
some of those, but also some of the data

1872
02:06:11,041 --> 02:06:12,333
that they're getting back and they're

1873
02:06:12,333 --> 02:06:14,083
actually getting pretty compelling data

1874
02:06:14,083 --> 02:06:17,458
that could help measure, you know, how

1875
02:06:17,458 --> 02:06:18,791
hurricanes are going to be moving through

1876
02:06:18,791 --> 02:06:19,875
the system. I think it's going to be

1877
02:06:19,875 --> 02:06:21,416
really interesting. Yeah, fascinating

1878
02:06:21,416 --> 02:06:23,125
stuff. So really, yeah, definitely this

1879
02:06:23,125 --> 02:06:24,833
was an episode to listen to and you may

1880
02:06:24,833 --> 02:06:25,791
want to listen to it again because

1881
02:06:25,791 --> 02:06:27,583
there's a lot of good advice in here and

1882
02:06:27,583 --> 02:06:29,291
Leonard Aaron talked about his sort of

1883
02:06:29,291 --> 02:06:32,125
path in his journey to get there to where

1884
02:06:32,125 --> 02:06:35,000
he is today. And yeah, definitely,

1885
02:06:35,000 --> 02:06:36,708
definitely. Yeah, definitely check it

1886
02:06:36,708 --> 02:06:38,416
out. And you may want to listen to it.

1887
02:06:38,416 --> 02:06:39,500
Give me I think we have some good at like

1888
02:06:39,500 --> 02:06:41,125
set the outset of the show. We have some

1889
02:06:41,125 --> 02:06:42,166
really good advice here if you're

1890
02:06:42,166 --> 02:06:44,125
thinking of doing a PhD to really

1891
02:06:44,125 --> 02:06:45,625
consider if it's something you really

1892
02:06:45,625 --> 02:06:48,000
should do. Absolutely. Yeah, ask yourself

1893
02:06:48,000 --> 02:06:50,083
if it's going to help your career. I

1894
02:06:50,083 --> 02:06:51,625
think it's I think it's really

1895
02:06:51,625 --> 02:06:52,916
interesting because I think also too is

1896
02:06:52,916 --> 02:06:54,791
like a lot of people do have PhDs now.

1897
02:06:55,125 --> 02:06:57,333
And there's there's an argument to be

1898
02:06:57,333 --> 02:06:58,750
said to get them because you're going to

1899
02:06:58,750 --> 02:06:59,291
compete with all the people.

1900
02:06:59,333 --> 02:07:01,250
All the other PhDs, whereas like someone

1901
02:07:01,250 --> 02:07:03,791
like myself who applies for a job, if I

1902
02:07:03,791 --> 02:07:05,083
apply for it and I go up against other

1903
02:07:05,083 --> 02:07:07,416
PhDs, you may not have that chance. It's

1904
02:07:07,416 --> 02:07:10,666
a bit of a catch 22 in a way because you

1905
02:07:10,666 --> 02:07:12,041
have so many people coming out, so many

1906
02:07:12,041 --> 02:07:14,708
more people coming out with PhDs than

1907
02:07:14,708 --> 02:07:16,541
they were previously that the Masters

1908
02:07:16,541 --> 02:07:19,416
almost seems like it's a prerequisite to

1909
02:07:19,416 --> 02:07:21,166
get this. So I think it's a really

1910
02:07:21,166 --> 02:07:23,291
interesting conundrum. Yeah, I think what

1911
02:07:23,291 --> 02:07:26,000
Aaron said is pretty accurate. You can't

1912
02:07:26,000 --> 02:07:27,291
go wrong with the Masters. You'll learn

1913
02:07:27,291 --> 02:07:29,291
skills, which is what most employers

1914
02:07:29,333 --> 02:07:30,958
are going to want those skills. But if

1915
02:07:30,958 --> 02:07:33,375
you're doing the PhD, you really need to

1916
02:07:33,375 --> 02:07:34,625
think why you need it. If you're going to

1917
02:07:34,625 --> 02:07:37,166
go in an academic route like Aaron did,

1918
02:07:37,583 --> 02:07:38,708
you need if you're gonna be a university

1919
02:07:38,708 --> 02:07:40,541
professor, you need a PhD. That's no

1920
02:07:40,541 --> 02:07:42,166
doubt about it. There's a few other

1921
02:07:42,166 --> 02:07:44,791
positions, but most most jobs, you don't

1922
02:07:44,791 --> 02:07:46,791
need a PhD. And if you're just looking

1923
02:07:46,791 --> 02:07:48,416
and if you're just looking for the title,

1924
02:07:49,000 --> 02:07:50,541
there's a lot easier ways you can get a

1925
02:07:50,541 --> 02:07:54,166
PhD than doing one in marine science,

1926
02:07:54,166 --> 02:07:56,083
which is you're looking at probably

1927
02:07:56,083 --> 02:07:57,333
easily a five to more

1928
02:07:57,333 --> 02:07:58,500
like a seven year commitment.

1929
02:07:59,166 --> 02:08:01,375
A lot of work and you got to publish and

1930
02:08:01,375 --> 02:08:04,208
it's it's a lot. And then you know, then

1931
02:08:04,208 --> 02:08:05,875
the chance of getting a job in the other

1932
02:08:05,875 --> 02:08:09,791
end can be pretty iffy. So, yeah. So, but

1933
02:08:09,791 --> 02:08:11,375
a Masters, you can't go wrong. You can

1934
02:08:11,375 --> 02:08:13,625
pretty much get hired by a Masters if you

1935
02:08:13,625 --> 02:08:15,208
got a Masters degree. So anyway, I think

1936
02:08:15,208 --> 02:08:17,583
it's a good episode. Young person, you

1937
02:08:17,583 --> 02:08:19,833
decide what to do. Think about it. You

1938
02:08:19,833 --> 02:08:21,083
know, some Aaron talked a little bit

1939
02:08:21,083 --> 02:08:23,375
about I think we're off air after the

1940
02:08:23,375 --> 02:08:26,166
show is about how taking time off between

1941
02:08:26,166 --> 02:08:27,500
each step in your degree

1942
02:08:27,500 --> 02:08:28,708
and you you experience this.

1943
02:08:28,750 --> 02:08:32,083
I did that. It helped me focus, David. It

1944
02:08:32,083 --> 02:08:34,125
really did. It helped me understand like

1945
02:08:34,125 --> 02:08:37,250
where I which way I wanted to go and find

1946
02:08:37,250 --> 02:08:39,500
the opportunities and help me understand

1947
02:08:39,500 --> 02:08:42,750
what I was doing because you come out of

1948
02:08:42,750 --> 02:08:46,541
your undergraduate. You've accumulated so

1949
02:08:46,541 --> 02:08:48,500
much information and you haven't really

1950
02:08:48,500 --> 02:08:50,541
had. I didn't have a time to really think

1951
02:08:50,541 --> 02:08:52,458
about where I want to go, what field I

1952
02:08:52,458 --> 02:08:54,000
want to go. And I didn't really know. And

1953
02:08:54,000 --> 02:08:54,916
there's so many different

1954
02:08:54,916 --> 02:08:55,666
ways you can branch off.

1955
02:08:55,708 --> 02:08:59,625
And so it's difficult to choose. So I

1956
02:08:59,625 --> 02:09:01,500
always recommend to people what I did is

1957
02:09:01,500 --> 02:09:03,916
I just worked, you know, get the first

1958
02:09:03,916 --> 02:09:05,083
job you can get if it's something

1959
02:09:05,083 --> 02:09:06,875
interesting, great. If not, you know, try

1960
02:09:06,875 --> 02:09:08,750
and find something else, but work into

1961
02:09:08,750 --> 02:09:10,375
something and be like, is this the path I

1962
02:09:10,375 --> 02:09:11,791
want to follow? Is this where I want to

1963
02:09:11,791 --> 02:09:13,500
go further and further? And if it's not,

1964
02:09:13,958 --> 02:09:16,166
then you go to a Masters and figure out

1965
02:09:16,166 --> 02:09:17,833
something else or you go to another job

1966
02:09:17,833 --> 02:09:19,916
and you figure out there's no I think the

1967
02:09:19,916 --> 02:09:21,041
problem is that people think that

1968
02:09:21,041 --> 02:09:23,041
everybody has to be in a rush. There's no

1969
02:09:23,041 --> 02:09:24,250
rush. You know, if you get your Masters

1970
02:09:24,250 --> 02:09:24,666
in your 20s, that's great.

1971
02:09:24,708 --> 02:09:26,916
If you get in your 30s, that's great. If

1972
02:09:26,916 --> 02:09:28,458
you get in your 40s, no problem. Like you

1973
02:09:28,458 --> 02:09:30,833
can still get it. It's just a matter. I'd

1974
02:09:30,833 --> 02:09:33,083
rather get a Masters where I know what I

1975
02:09:33,083 --> 02:09:34,791
want rather than just doing

1976
02:09:34,791 --> 02:09:35,916
it for the sake of doing it.

1977
02:09:35,916 --> 02:09:37,083
I was going to say, I think two people,

1978
02:09:37,500 --> 02:09:39,333
you know, nowadays it's more common today

1979
02:09:39,333 --> 02:09:40,791
than certainly when I was going through

1980
02:09:40,791 --> 02:09:43,208
it, people take like a gap year or two or

1981
02:09:43,208 --> 02:09:44,916
certainly after either between high

1982
02:09:44,916 --> 02:09:47,500
school and college or between their

1983
02:09:47,500 --> 02:09:48,666
college and their Masters.

1984
02:09:48,708 --> 02:09:51,666
And I can speak as I mean, when I was

1985
02:09:51,666 --> 02:09:52,958
coming through, it was pretty standard.

1986
02:09:52,958 --> 02:09:54,291
You go straight from your math, your

1987
02:09:54,291 --> 02:09:56,791
Bachelors to Masters. I was pretty common

1988
02:09:56,791 --> 02:09:58,875
back then. But nowadays, I notice when I

1989
02:09:58,875 --> 02:10:00,750
have students that come in with have to

1990
02:10:00,750 --> 02:10:02,541
having taken a year or two off after

1991
02:10:02,541 --> 02:10:04,500
their Bachelors, they're much more

1992
02:10:04,500 --> 02:10:06,833
focused and serious about what they're

1993
02:10:06,833 --> 02:10:08,541
going to do than students that go

1994
02:10:08,541 --> 02:10:10,208
straight through. And I kind of look at

1995
02:10:10,208 --> 02:10:12,333
my own thing like, yeah, if I'd had a

1996
02:10:12,333 --> 02:10:14,166
little time off, I might have been a

1997
02:10:14,166 --> 02:10:16,041
little more focused, but

1998
02:10:16,041 --> 02:10:17,666
it's just different times.

1999
02:10:17,708 --> 02:10:20,541
But I, I think sometimes had taken a year

2000
02:10:20,541 --> 02:10:22,833
or two off between each step from a

2001
02:10:22,833 --> 02:10:24,250
Bachelors to a Masters. And then if

2002
02:10:24,250 --> 02:10:27,625
you're thinking PhD, I take, I take time

2003
02:10:27,625 --> 02:10:29,250
off and think seriously if that's what

2004
02:10:29,250 --> 02:10:30,666
you want to do because

2005
02:10:30,666 --> 02:10:31,708
it's a big investment.

2006
02:10:31,708 --> 02:10:34,666
Nothing else time. You got time, time

2007
02:10:34,666 --> 02:10:36,583
that you got is going to take years to

2008
02:10:36,583 --> 02:10:38,625
get through. You'll be into your most

2009
02:10:38,625 --> 02:10:39,500
people, you'll be well into

2010
02:10:39,500 --> 02:10:40,666
your 30s mid early to mid 30s.

2011
02:10:41,708 --> 02:10:44,125
And when other people that haven't gotten

2012
02:10:44,125 --> 02:10:45,708
that have have already started off in

2013
02:10:45,708 --> 02:10:48,416
their whole life path with with careers,

2014
02:10:48,625 --> 02:10:51,333
jobs, marriage, family. So something to

2015
02:10:51,333 --> 02:10:52,208
think about. I think

2016
02:10:52,208 --> 02:10:53,250
we covered that. Yeah.

2017
02:10:53,416 --> 02:10:54,666
And the other benefit, like last benefit,

2018
02:10:54,666 --> 02:10:56,833
I would say of when you get to choose is

2019
02:10:56,833 --> 02:10:58,458
you've actually worked in a team before

2020
02:10:58,458 --> 02:11:00,166
if you've had another job. So when you

2021
02:11:00,166 --> 02:11:01,791
come back and you're working in a lab,

2022
02:11:02,125 --> 02:11:02,666
oftentimes you're working in a team.

2023
02:11:03,708 --> 02:11:05,375
You're working with other lab mates,

2024
02:11:05,375 --> 02:11:06,916
other Masters students, PhD students,

2025
02:11:06,916 --> 02:11:09,041
postdocs, whoever's in that lab. And so

2026
02:11:09,041 --> 02:11:11,458
you're a little bit more, you understand

2027
02:11:11,458 --> 02:11:14,250
a little bit more about what that work is

2028
02:11:14,250 --> 02:11:15,583
going to look like. Right.

2029
02:11:15,583 --> 02:11:17,000
And because when you do your graduate

2030
02:11:17,000 --> 02:11:18,625
work, you almost have to treat it like a

2031
02:11:18,625 --> 02:11:20,333
bit like a job, a bit more like a job

2032
02:11:20,333 --> 02:11:22,416
than, than a student, you're expected to

2033
02:11:22,416 --> 02:11:24,250
contribute to the lab, not only with your

2034
02:11:24,250 --> 02:11:26,250
own research, but maybe with other parts

2035
02:11:26,250 --> 02:11:26,666
of the research as well.

2036
02:11:26,708 --> 02:11:29,625
And so to be able to be adaptable, to be

2037
02:11:29,625 --> 02:11:32,083
able to work in team, go out in the field

2038
02:11:32,083 --> 02:11:34,125
and have that experience will be a lot

2039
02:11:34,125 --> 02:11:35,833
more beneficial to you when you come back

2040
02:11:35,833 --> 02:11:38,291
and be more beneficial to the head of the

2041
02:11:38,291 --> 02:11:40,166
lab, you know, the chief scientists,

2042
02:11:40,166 --> 02:11:41,333
right? So I think that's,

2043
02:11:41,333 --> 02:11:41,666
that's really important.

2044
02:11:41,708 --> 02:11:44,000
But anyway, it's obviously definitely a

2045
02:11:44,000 --> 02:11:45,416
great discussions coming out of this.

2046
02:11:45,875 --> 02:11:46,833
We'd love to know what we'd love to hear

2047
02:11:46,833 --> 02:11:48,750
from you, like what your discussion would

2048
02:11:48,750 --> 02:11:51,208
be and what questions or comments you

2049
02:11:51,208 --> 02:11:53,791
have on this episode, you know, about

2050
02:11:53,791 --> 02:11:55,916
doing a PhD, doing a Masters or other

2051
02:11:55,916 --> 02:11:58,416
things, or Sharks and Hurricanes,

2052
02:11:58,416 --> 02:11:58,666
whatever that might be.

2053
02:11:58,708 --> 02:12:00,875
David, if people want to get ahold of

2054
02:12:00,875 --> 02:12:01,875
you, how would they do so?

2055
02:12:02,958 --> 02:12:06,958
Law Shark Guy on Instagram, a YouTube

2056
02:12:06,958 --> 02:12:09,250
channel, Law Shark Guy, check out the

2057
02:12:09,250 --> 02:12:11,333
series, searching for Law Sharks, Extinct

2058
02:12:11,333 --> 02:12:14,333
or Alive. So new episode should be out by

2059
02:12:14,333 --> 02:12:16,833
now. And those are the best ways to

2060
02:12:16,833 --> 02:12:17,666
follow me and connect with me.

2061
02:12:17,708 --> 02:12:20,208
Awesome. And of course, you can always

2062
02:12:20,208 --> 02:12:21,916
connect with us on our YouTube channel,

2063
02:12:22,333 --> 02:12:24,416
Beyond Jaws Pod, as well as our

2064
02:12:24,416 --> 02:12:26,750
Instagram, Beyond Jaws Pod, as always

2065
02:12:26,750 --> 02:12:28,833
great to do another episode with you,

2066
02:12:28,833 --> 02:12:30,666
Dave. And thank you very much to Aaron

2067
02:12:30,666 --> 02:12:32,500
for joining us. And thank you guys for

2068
02:12:32,500 --> 02:12:34,083
listening each and every week or every

2069
02:12:34,083 --> 02:12:36,083
couple of weeks when we publish these, we

2070
02:12:36,083 --> 02:12:38,208
really appreciate this. And we love

2071
02:12:38,208 --> 02:12:39,791
hearing from you and your feedback. So

2072
02:12:39,791 --> 02:12:41,208
thank you so much for joining us on

2073
02:12:41,208 --> 02:12:42,791
today's episode of the Beyond Jaws

2074
02:12:42,791 --> 02:12:44,458
podcast from David. Now, we really

2075
02:12:44,458 --> 02:12:46,208
appreciate it. Have a great day. We'll

2076
02:12:46,208 --> 02:12:46,916
talk to you next time

2077
02:12:46,916 --> 02:12:47,666
and happy constancy.