Sharks, Science, and Storytelling with Guido Leurs

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Guido Lures is on the

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Beyond Jaws podcast today.

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We're gonna be talking about his journey

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all the way up to being a postdoc

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and talking about not only

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just focusing in on one shark,

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but on many sharks and

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the fascination that we have

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with visual pictures

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and being able to connect

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to visual pictures of these animals

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and understanding the science behind it.

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We're gonna be talking

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about that on today's episode

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of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Enjoy the episode.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome

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back to another episode

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of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I'm your co-host Andrew Lewin with my

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co-host Dr. David Ebert.

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Dave, that was a hard intro for me to do.

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I did it probably about 17 times.

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Kept messing up Guido's name as well as

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the podcast that we were on.

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I'm struggling.

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Why don't you tell us how excited you are

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to have Guido on the podcast.

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Again, this is the second

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time being on the podcast.

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Yeah, we're really excited to have you.

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Guido is on a couple of years.

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A few years ago, we had the Global Wedge

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Fish and Guitar Fish Symposium

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back in November, December of 2021 and

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definitely check out those episodes.

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But we wanted to have him back for a more

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thorough and in-depth discussion

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on his research and

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Guido when he was on before,

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he was a PhD student.

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We're still working on his thesis,

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but now he's officially Dr. Guido Lourd.

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And so really excited to

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have him back on to come on.

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He's an amazing guy and he

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has a ton of stuff going on.

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He's from the Netherlands.

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And so it's not really a

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place you often think about

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a lot of shark researchers coming out of,

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but he did a lot of the typical things.

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He went to South Africa.

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He worked in Bimini and the Bahamas,

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and he just had this

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passion for studying sharks.

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And he's worked in some fascinating areas

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in Guinea, Bissau, Mauritania.

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And as we talked

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today, some of his journey,

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some of the

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fascinating species he worked on,

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including the Mauritania and Wedge Fish,

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which we'll touch on as

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well during the interview.

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And so he's had a

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fascinating journey in his story,

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and he just did a phenomenal PhD thesis

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we'll talk about as well.

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So really hope you enjoy the show today.

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And hopefully by the end of the show,

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Andrew will be able to

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pronounce his name correctly.

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I may or may not.

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I'm not sure if I want to try.

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We'll see how that goes.

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Okay.

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A little tired, but that's okay.

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This is going to be a great episode.

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I can't wait for you guys

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to listen to the interview.

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So here's the interview with Guido.

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Enjoy. And we'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Guido.

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Welcome back to the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about the

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conservation of sharks and rays?

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Hello.

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Yeah.

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I'm always ready.

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Sharks.

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Yeah.

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Well, that's great to hear.

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Well, today on our Beyond Jaws podcast,

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we have a rising star in

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the field with the awesome

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Dr. Guido Lures today.

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And Guido is a postdoctoral researcher,

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and I'm going to mispronounce this at

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Vangen University.

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I apologize for my Dutch,

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but it's in the Netherlands.

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And he specializes in ecology and

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conservation of sharks and rays.

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His work explores the ecological roles of

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elasmobranchs across a

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variety of ecosystems.

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Including large intertidal zones, coral

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reefs, and temperate

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coastal waters from different

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levels of fishing pressure.

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He has a strong focus on the intersection

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between ecological

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research and shark fisheries,

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particularly in regions where shark

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conservation action is urgently needed.

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Guido leads and contributes to several

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multiple international projects,

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including in Guinea-Bissau and West

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Africa, in the Dutch

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Caribbean, and in the North Sea.

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And while those are like three pretty

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widely geographic areas,

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we hope to hear more about.

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He's also a member of the

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IUCN shark specialist group.

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It has contributed to the important

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sharks and rays areas programs.

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In addition, Guido organizes the annual

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Azores Shark and Ray

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Safari that teaches divers about

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sharks and rays and where he gives

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lectures about shark

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ecology, also at universities.

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He has over 10 research publications.

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He also the frequent contributor to the

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Red List assessment.

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And he's also a frequent presenter at

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conferences, including the

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American Lazo Branks Society

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symposium on wedge fishing, guitar fish,

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which he was actually on episode nine

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back on November 15th in 2021.

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So check that out if you haven't yet his

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current position is he is a

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postdoctoral researcher at.

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I won't try to mess up

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his university name again.

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And he has he does have a bachelor of

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science at Denbosch

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University of Applied Sciences

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and a master's of science

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from the same university.

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I won't mispronounce and his PhD as well

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from another university that will not

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mispronounce again either.

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Anyway, sorry, but you

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know, the fantastic guy.

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I just said my dutch is not very good.

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So anyway, you know, welcome to the show.

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Thank you very much.

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And I'm sorry about the Dutch.

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Oh, don't apologize.

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No, I we need to figure this out.

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So I I have no excuse having lived in

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South Africa where I was exposed to

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Afrikaans and Dutch quite a bit.

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I should have a much better grasp of the

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language, but I don't apologize.

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Anyway, we're welcome.

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We're really happy to

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excited to have you here.

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And kind of first question when he

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started with is how did

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you get interested in the

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marine sciences and into shark research?

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Yeah, that's a good question.

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Yeah.

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First of all, thanks for having me.

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Great to be back up on the show.

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Yeah, it all started, I think, with my

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dad watching specific

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movies that everybody

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knows about Jaws, Deep Blue Sea and

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basically seeing them

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along the sight lines or like

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sitting with him,

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seeing some of the scenes.

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And that all with fascinating.

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I think I could tell back then already

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that Jaws was kind of fake.

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How they said that the special effects

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were in that that great.

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Right.

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I think at the time that they came out,

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they were probably amazing.

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But yeah, now, yeah,

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not that much anymore.

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But yeah, from from that, I started

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reading up about charts myself.

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Saw documentaries like

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Sharkwater coming from an early age.

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And I think for me, that was the film

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that showed charts in a

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completely different way.

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I loved seeing Steve Irwin on TV also.

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Yeah, that's all where where it started.

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Oh, okay.

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Okay.

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Oh, that's cool.

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So so when you got you grew up there and

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you decided to go to

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like decide on universities

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and word schooling.

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Yeah, you pretty much focused on those

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areas that would try to

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take you in that direction.

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Yeah, so that's yeah, it's kind of tricky

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because we the

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Netherlands is not really known

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for a sharks. I also grew up 200 kilometers from the

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from the from the sea,

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which is, I guess in the US,

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that's not that much, but that's

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basically our entire country.

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So yeah, it was mostly books, movies,

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started reading a bit

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more scientific books also.

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At quite a young age, and then decided to

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go into applied biology.

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And I remember really well, like one of

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the first days into that

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study, one of the teachers asked,

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okay, so why did you

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decide to study biology?

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So I want to I want to work for charts.

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And she was like,

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Yeah, we'll see about that.

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That's probably going to

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change in the four years.

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And yeah, yeah, that never changed.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, that never changed.

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Yeah.

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So when you're when you're going to the

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different universities, they

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go, because you stayed in the

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Netherlands, I know other some people

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have had on have gone to

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like Australia and other places,

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but you stayed in the Netherlands.

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Was it that did they the programs you

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went to they had just had

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was they had good biology

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programs or ecology programs?

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Yeah, and I think I wasn't in that sense.

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I wasn't ready to

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leave the Netherlands also.

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I mean, I like the Netherlands, it

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doesn't have a lot of sharks, but

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that it's a great country.

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But it's also like the applied biology

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bachelor that I did forced

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us to like a fixed program

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was that you had to go

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abroad for six months, at least.

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And that could be Belgium or Germany, but

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it could also be in

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my case, South Africa.

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And I did a little

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project in the Bahamas as well.

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So I really like, yeah, I stayed in the

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Netherlands for almost all my studies,

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but I whenever I could go abroad

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and do a project with

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both I am at a chance.

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They went to South Africa, I guess it was

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white sharks you were looking

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at when you were a volunteer.

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01:08:29,416 --> 01:08:30,708
Yeah, of course. What else would you do?

282
01:08:30,916 --> 01:08:31,500
Yeah, exactly.

283
01:08:32,625 --> 01:08:34,083
It was a great experience.

284
01:08:34,083 --> 01:08:36,166
It was seven months in in comes by.

285
01:08:38,333 --> 01:08:39,750
And yeah, I worked on one

286
01:08:39,750 --> 01:08:40,958
of the cage diving boats.

287
01:08:41,791 --> 01:08:44,375
I think that nowadays, I'm not sure if

288
01:08:44,375 --> 01:08:47,166
they're still still operating, but that

289
01:08:47,166 --> 01:08:48,041
was a great experience.

290
01:08:48,416 --> 01:08:50,083
I learned a lot. So a lot of sharks.

291
01:08:51,500 --> 01:08:52,625
It's a beautiful country.

292
01:08:53,083 --> 01:08:55,833
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's for sure.

293
01:08:56,250 --> 01:08:57,333
So you went there and then you went to

294
01:08:57,333 --> 01:08:58,125
when you went to the Bahamas

295
01:08:58,125 --> 01:08:59,583
was a sunny group are still

296
01:08:59,583 --> 01:09:01,000
there when you had.

297
01:09:01,166 --> 01:09:04,500
I don't think he was. He wasn't. He

298
01:09:04,500 --> 01:09:06,083
wasn't there at the moment because we

299
01:09:06,083 --> 01:09:07,083
definitely went to the

300
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:09,875
I didn't go to the shark lab. We had our

301
01:09:09,875 --> 01:09:11,375
we worked with the

302
01:09:11,375 --> 01:09:12,500
great hammer had sharks.

303
01:09:12,541 --> 01:09:13,000
Oh, okay.

304
01:09:13,750 --> 01:09:16,916
I worked with Craig O'Connell. Okay. We

305
01:09:16,916 --> 01:09:19,750
had a smaller our own expedition,

306
01:09:19,750 --> 01:09:21,125
basically, but we did go to

307
01:09:21,125 --> 01:09:22,541
shark left and he wasn't there at the

308
01:09:22,541 --> 01:09:24,375
time. Okay. Okay. Didn't

309
01:09:24,375 --> 01:09:25,083
know if he had a chance to

310
01:09:25,916 --> 01:09:28,000
cross path. So he went. So you did these

311
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:30,416
volunteer projects in South

312
01:09:30,416 --> 01:09:31,750
Africa and the Bahamas. And

313
01:09:31,750 --> 01:09:34,000
obviously that did not diminish your

314
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:35,875
enthusiasm for sharks. And

315
01:09:35,875 --> 01:09:38,083
so you came back. So when you

316
01:09:38,083 --> 01:09:39,500
came back to that, and this was all I

317
01:09:39,500 --> 01:09:40,583
presume this is before you

318
01:09:40,583 --> 01:09:41,750
started your graduate studies.

319
01:09:42,625 --> 01:09:44,625
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. It

320
01:09:44,625 --> 01:09:47,000
was, it was all like, yeah, these, these

321
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:48,708
projects really motivated me.

322
01:09:48,708 --> 01:09:50,791
I got the freedom also to publish. So

323
01:09:50,791 --> 01:09:52,583
that was very nice. Nice. Relatively

324
01:09:53,291 --> 01:09:56,458
early in my career. Good support from,

325
01:09:56,458 --> 01:09:58,333
from supervisors. So that

326
01:09:58,333 --> 01:09:59,875
was, that was very nice.

327
01:10:00,333 --> 01:10:02,666
Yeah. So, so when you came back, okay, so

328
01:10:02,666 --> 01:10:03,416
you came back, you

329
01:10:03,416 --> 01:10:04,916
started pursuing, how did you,

330
01:10:05,625 --> 01:10:07,125
you're obviously working at, I know that

331
01:10:07,125 --> 01:10:08,166
I think you're, you got

332
01:10:08,166 --> 01:10:09,666
some very diverse projects in

333
01:10:09,666 --> 01:10:12,000
different areas and stuff. So, and was it

334
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:13,750
the, how did you wind up in

335
01:10:13,750 --> 01:10:15,750
Guinea-Bissau, which is not some

336
01:10:15,750 --> 01:10:18,500
place it's on the off on the beaten path,

337
01:10:18,500 --> 01:10:21,375
let's say. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good

338
01:10:21,375 --> 01:10:24,625
question. Yeah, that's a bit of a long

339
01:10:24,625 --> 01:10:27,000
story. So I'll try to keep it short.

340
01:10:27,291 --> 01:10:28,750
But that's what the podcast is for. You

341
01:10:28,750 --> 01:10:30,708
can keep it as long as you'd like. Yeah.

342
01:10:30,958 --> 01:10:32,000
We want the juicy

343
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:36,375
stories too. So it's actually,

344
01:10:36,625 --> 01:10:39,583
the project was a bird focused project.

345
01:10:39,583 --> 01:10:40,833
So it was completely focused on

346
01:10:40,833 --> 01:10:43,250
shorebirds and the funding also came from

347
01:10:43,250 --> 01:10:45,958
like shorebird related, related work, but

348
01:10:45,958 --> 01:10:49,791
it basically started at

349
01:10:49,791 --> 01:10:51,958
my university at the time.

350
01:10:52,833 --> 01:10:54,416
One of the professors knew I was

351
01:10:54,416 --> 01:10:56,958
interested in charts. He went to

352
01:10:56,958 --> 01:11:01,583
Mauritania. So a bit more north in West

353
01:11:01,583 --> 01:11:04,125
Africa to work on

354
01:11:04,125 --> 01:11:06,208
large intertidal areas and

355
01:11:06,500 --> 01:11:08,750
mostly focusing on the shorebirds

356
01:11:08,750 --> 01:11:10,875
migratory shorebirds that migrate from

357
01:11:10,875 --> 01:11:13,500
the Netherlands, a big intertidal area in

358
01:11:13,500 --> 01:11:14,916
the Netherlands, that migrate every

359
01:11:14,916 --> 01:11:17,416
winter to West Africa,

360
01:11:17,416 --> 01:11:18,666
spent the winter there.

361
01:11:20,708 --> 01:11:23,166
And they basically, they use these

362
01:11:23,166 --> 01:11:27,166
intertidal areas for feeding or fueling

363
01:11:27,166 --> 01:11:28,250
up to make those long

364
01:11:28,250 --> 01:11:30,291
migrations back to the Netherlands.

365
01:11:31,166 --> 01:11:32,458
And what they saw there during their

366
01:11:32,458 --> 01:11:34,500
expeditions was every year they went

367
01:11:34,500 --> 01:11:35,500
there, they saw a bigger

368
01:11:35,500 --> 01:11:37,291
and bigger shark fishery.

369
01:11:37,458 --> 01:11:39,291
So they saw that local communities were

370
01:11:39,291 --> 01:11:41,083
catching more and more sharks. And we're

371
01:11:41,083 --> 01:11:42,458
talking about they've been working in

372
01:11:42,458 --> 01:11:44,416
those areas for the last decades.

373
01:11:46,500 --> 01:11:48,500
And at some point he heard like there was

374
01:11:48,500 --> 01:11:51,541
somebody interested in sharks. Maybe

375
01:11:51,541 --> 01:11:53,708
let's let's take him on one of our

376
01:11:53,708 --> 01:11:55,875
expeditions. So I joined him to the

377
01:11:55,875 --> 01:11:57,333
Bangladesh in Mauritania.

378
01:11:58,166 --> 01:12:01,250
And I looked at the shark fishery there

379
01:12:01,250 --> 01:12:05,541
and we got this idea of like, so what if

380
01:12:05,541 --> 01:12:08,000
sharks in these large intertidal areas

381
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:10,375
might be feeding on the same resources in

382
01:12:10,375 --> 01:12:11,541
these areas and the birds?

383
01:12:12,833 --> 01:12:15,500
These large intertidal areas they full

384
01:12:15,500 --> 01:12:17,916
dry every six hours or every four hours.

385
01:12:18,375 --> 01:12:20,666
These big sandflats they full dry. That's

386
01:12:20,666 --> 01:12:21,541
when the birds eat

387
01:12:21,541 --> 01:12:24,125
crustaceans, worms, shellfish.

388
01:12:24,958 --> 01:12:28,458
But then six hours later, those sharks

389
01:12:28,458 --> 01:12:29,583
and rays might have access

390
01:12:29,583 --> 01:12:30,916
to the same prey species.

391
01:12:31,916 --> 01:12:34,416
And so this whole hypothesis, we thought

392
01:12:34,416 --> 01:12:36,708
out this whole hypothesis of shark

393
01:12:36,708 --> 01:12:38,625
fisheries indirectly through the fruit

394
01:12:38,625 --> 01:12:40,208
map having an impact on those

395
01:12:40,208 --> 01:12:41,833
micro-toreally raters that we're trying

396
01:12:41,833 --> 01:12:42,875
to protect in the Netherlands.

397
01:12:43,625 --> 01:12:45,833
And that's all like long story short.

398
01:12:45,833 --> 01:12:49,541
That's how we got into a project in the

399
01:12:49,541 --> 01:12:51,750
Bangga again in Mauritania, but also in

400
01:12:51,750 --> 01:12:53,083
the Bijepus archipelago,

401
01:12:53,208 --> 01:12:54,208
which is another large

402
01:12:54,208 --> 01:12:56,375
intertidal area in the Bishau.

403
01:12:57,833 --> 01:13:01,666
Okay. So you went to both both

404
01:13:01,666 --> 01:13:02,916
Mauritania and Guinea Bishau?

405
01:13:03,500 --> 01:13:06,208
Yeah. So Mauritania was mostly during my

406
01:13:06,208 --> 01:13:09,333
my master's actually. We did most of the

407
01:13:09,333 --> 01:13:11,000
field work already during my master's and

408
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:12,833
then in Guinea Bishau that

409
01:13:12,833 --> 01:13:14,000
was mostly during the PhD.

410
01:13:14,208 --> 01:13:16,041
So every year of the PhD,

411
01:13:16,291 --> 01:13:17,750
we did two expeditions there.

412
01:13:18,541 --> 01:13:20,750
Nice. Was there any specific you were you

413
01:13:20,750 --> 01:13:23,083
just trying to basically document what

414
01:13:23,083 --> 01:13:24,541
you were seeing? Was

415
01:13:24,541 --> 01:13:25,791
that part of the part of it?

416
01:13:26,375 --> 01:13:32,166
Yeah, so I think when we first went to

417
01:13:32,166 --> 01:13:34,000
the Bishau archipelago, of course, we

418
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:35,458
started working with the National

419
01:13:35,458 --> 01:13:36,333
Fisheries Institute.

420
01:13:37,416 --> 01:13:38,791
We looked at what what have you been

421
01:13:38,791 --> 01:13:40,458
collecting and what they've been

422
01:13:40,458 --> 01:13:42,291
collecting on sharks. And we saw that

423
01:13:42,291 --> 01:13:43,541
there was almost no

424
01:13:43,541 --> 01:13:45,208
species specific information.

425
01:13:46,500 --> 01:13:48,291
So that was basically the first part. We

426
01:13:48,291 --> 01:13:49,708
came in with these big ecological

427
01:13:49,708 --> 01:13:51,416
questions. And of course, we saw that

428
01:13:52,708 --> 01:13:53,916
we needed to take a

429
01:13:53,916 --> 01:13:56,000
couple of steps, steps back.

430
01:13:57,708 --> 01:13:59,666
So, yeah, we did we did a study using

431
01:13:59,666 --> 01:14:02,833
EDNA to sort of to try to quickly come up

432
01:14:02,833 --> 01:14:03,750
with a species list,

433
01:14:03,750 --> 01:14:05,291
but also looking at the fisheries. We

434
01:14:05,291 --> 01:14:07,125
started with the National Fisheries

435
01:14:07,125 --> 01:14:09,708
Institute. We started an observer

436
01:14:09,708 --> 01:14:12,125
program. So landing site surveys.

437
01:14:12,791 --> 01:14:15,625
And of course, yeah, for the food web

438
01:14:15,625 --> 01:14:17,416
related questions, we started catching

439
01:14:17,416 --> 01:14:19,708
animals and taking samples from animals

440
01:14:19,708 --> 01:14:22,708
that were captured in the fisheries and

441
01:14:22,708 --> 01:14:24,583
then doing stabilized analysis.

442
01:14:25,333 --> 01:14:27,000
Yeah, so it was very diverse.

443
01:14:28,291 --> 01:14:30,750
So I guess so obviously one of the big

444
01:14:30,750 --> 01:14:33,166
critically endangered groups there are

445
01:14:33,166 --> 01:14:35,333
the wedge fish and guitar fish.

446
01:14:35,916 --> 01:14:38,041
And one of the unique species there of

447
01:14:38,041 --> 01:14:41,416
people that not listening in may or may

448
01:14:41,416 --> 01:14:42,125
not be aware of is

449
01:14:42,125 --> 01:14:43,583
called a false shark ray.

450
01:14:44,041 --> 01:14:44,916
And it's a genus that

451
01:14:44,916 --> 01:14:46,875
was just described in 2016.

452
01:14:47,500 --> 01:14:51,041
Rinko, Rinko, Rina,

453
01:14:51,708 --> 01:14:53,125
Mauritania, I'm trying to remember. I

454
01:14:53,125 --> 01:14:54,416
know it's Rinko something I can.

455
01:14:55,625 --> 01:14:57,000
But can you tell us a

456
01:14:57,000 --> 01:14:57,833
little bit about that?

457
01:14:59,333 --> 01:15:01,916
I mean, I've never seen it, obviously.

458
01:15:02,416 --> 01:15:07,041
Yeah, I wish I wish. But I think there's

459
01:15:07,041 --> 01:15:09,083
only a couple of photos of the species

460
01:15:09,083 --> 01:15:10,208
I've heard of people

461
01:15:10,208 --> 01:15:12,208
like, of course, we asked

462
01:15:13,750 --> 01:15:14,666
fisheries observers

463
01:15:14,666 --> 01:15:16,375
there in the Bangla Ghen

464
01:15:17,375 --> 01:15:19,416
because the species is only known from

465
01:15:19,416 --> 01:15:21,291
the Bangla Ghen also not even outside

466
01:15:21,291 --> 01:15:23,500
that that specific

467
01:15:23,500 --> 01:15:25,291
intertidal area in Mauritania.

468
01:15:27,541 --> 01:15:29,000
Yeah, we asked the fisheries observers

469
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:30,541
and some of them said they've seen it.

470
01:15:32,625 --> 01:15:36,750
I'm wondering how accurate that is. But I

471
01:15:36,750 --> 01:15:38,041
definitely one of the

472
01:15:38,041 --> 01:15:40,500
fisheries observers helped me that

473
01:15:41,583 --> 01:15:43,500
that he saw it. And I think he also

474
01:15:43,500 --> 01:15:45,208
provided one of the pictures that made it

475
01:15:45,208 --> 01:15:46,958
into the publication.

476
01:15:47,541 --> 01:15:50,583
But yeah, I've never seen it. We never

477
01:15:50,583 --> 01:15:51,708
picked it up. There are

478
01:15:51,708 --> 01:15:54,000
EDNA in any other area.

479
01:15:54,958 --> 01:15:58,458
But yeah, did you did you see any of the

480
01:15:58,458 --> 01:16:01,291
other any of the other guitar fish?

481
01:16:01,291 --> 01:16:03,583
Isn't there a one of the

482
01:16:03,583 --> 01:16:05,458
one of the wedge fish there?

483
01:16:05,458 --> 01:16:08,041
Liberti occur in that area?

484
01:16:08,333 --> 01:16:11,666
Yes, Liberti is African wedge fish. Yeah.

485
01:16:11,916 --> 01:16:12,125
OK.

486
01:16:13,375 --> 01:16:17,083
So we when we had the fisheries observer

487
01:16:17,083 --> 01:16:18,708
program running in the beach because

488
01:16:18,708 --> 01:16:19,666
archipelago in

489
01:16:19,666 --> 01:16:20,375
Guinea, the south, that is,

490
01:16:21,041 --> 01:16:26,333
we had at some point, we had three local

491
01:16:26,333 --> 01:16:28,625
students that worked on our project.

492
01:16:29,250 --> 01:16:31,000
One of them did the landing site service

493
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:32,833
and two of them did interviews with the

494
01:16:32,833 --> 01:16:34,000
with the fishing

495
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:35,958
community trying to reconstruct

496
01:16:36,958 --> 01:16:40,958
like very roughly population trends based

497
01:16:40,958 --> 01:16:42,041
on their experiences

498
01:16:42,041 --> 01:16:43,458
over the past decades.

499
01:16:44,333 --> 01:16:45,458
And while they were doing one of the

500
01:16:45,458 --> 01:16:48,000
interviews, one of the fishermen said,

501
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:49,666
like, I captured this

502
01:16:49,666 --> 01:16:50,250
Casa play in the sea.

503
01:16:50,416 --> 01:16:52,000
Casa play is this local, the

504
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:53,458
local name for a guitar fish.

505
01:16:55,125 --> 01:16:56,791
And he said Casa, I've been data, which

506
01:16:56,791 --> 01:16:59,375
means like a guitar fish with with

507
01:16:59,375 --> 01:17:01,166
speckles like with with dots.

508
01:17:02,666 --> 01:17:04,000
And luckily,

509
01:17:05,166 --> 01:17:06,291
everybody has phones nowadays.

510
01:17:07,208 --> 01:17:09,541
So he made a couple of pictures and he

511
01:17:09,541 --> 01:17:11,083
showed it to us and the

512
01:17:11,083 --> 01:17:12,708
students and send it to me.

513
01:17:13,458 --> 01:17:15,125
And I think it was just before Christmas.

514
01:17:16,541 --> 01:17:17,791
And I got this this

515
01:17:17,791 --> 01:17:19,208
nice surprise on WhatsApp.

516
01:17:20,875 --> 01:17:22,458
And unfortunately, it was too

517
01:17:22,458 --> 01:17:24,500
late for us to take samples.

518
01:17:24,500 --> 01:17:26,791
But yeah, we were able to confirm that it

519
01:17:26,791 --> 01:17:28,333
was African much fish.

520
01:17:28,333 --> 01:17:30,541
And I think the previous record of that

521
01:17:30,541 --> 01:17:33,041
species in the beach goes from 2006.

522
01:17:34,833 --> 01:17:37,083
So that's that was quite a nice, nice

523
01:17:37,083 --> 01:17:38,916
record. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

524
01:17:38,916 --> 01:17:41,208
So you're so you spent so since then, are

525
01:17:41,208 --> 01:17:42,875
you used to you still go back there now

526
01:17:42,875 --> 01:17:44,708
pretty regularly to Guinea Bissau?

527
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:46,375
Is it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

528
01:17:46,500 --> 01:17:50,458
So I did my PhD mostly focused on on the

529
01:17:50,458 --> 01:17:52,291
food webs of these large. Yeah.

530
01:17:52,583 --> 01:17:53,416
If I can if I can give you if I can just

531
01:17:53,416 --> 01:17:54,958
give a plug, this is his thesis.

532
01:17:56,750 --> 01:17:58,458
And thank you very much for sending me a

533
01:17:58,458 --> 01:17:59,916
copy. This is an amazing.

534
01:18:01,208 --> 01:18:02,416
This was just an amazing.

535
01:18:03,458 --> 01:18:05,625
He has a thesis book. I've never seen one

536
01:18:05,625 --> 01:18:06,750
that detailed before.

537
01:18:06,958 --> 01:18:08,833
And that like that looks like a textbook

538
01:18:08,833 --> 01:18:10,791
you could sell to to people.

539
01:18:11,375 --> 01:18:13,416
I actually had people ask me if they can

540
01:18:13,416 --> 01:18:14,833
buy one. But of course, I'm not allowed

541
01:18:14,958 --> 01:18:15,833
because it's university

542
01:18:15,833 --> 01:18:17,916
property. But right. Yeah. Right.

543
01:18:18,541 --> 01:18:21,541
It was it was an it was I just had to

544
01:18:21,541 --> 01:18:22,875
shout out. That was a very,

545
01:18:22,875 --> 01:18:26,000
it's a very impressive thesis you did on

546
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:27,833
that area there. It's super impressive.

547
01:18:28,083 --> 01:18:30,791
So and again, thanks for the layout. Like

548
01:18:30,791 --> 01:18:32,083
what made you decide to

549
01:18:32,083 --> 01:18:33,416
do that type of layout?

550
01:18:33,416 --> 01:18:35,000
Like that, like I said, like the usually

551
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:36,708
with it with a with this

552
01:18:36,708 --> 01:18:38,166
thesis, like my master's thesis

553
01:18:38,250 --> 01:18:39,958
was the traditional, you know, you just

554
01:18:39,958 --> 01:18:41,125
get it bound by what the

555
01:18:41,125 --> 01:18:42,708
university kind of gives you.

556
01:18:43,583 --> 01:18:45,833
There's no illustrated photos. There was

557
01:18:45,833 --> 01:18:47,416
like it was all, you know,

558
01:18:47,416 --> 01:18:48,541
black and white and so forth.

559
01:18:49,458 --> 01:18:51,125
I guess what made you decide to do this?

560
01:18:51,125 --> 01:18:51,833
Was that it was that

561
01:18:51,833 --> 01:18:52,625
something with the university

562
01:18:52,625 --> 01:18:54,375
that did that is just something special,

563
01:18:54,375 --> 01:18:55,791
the or you decide to make

564
01:18:55,791 --> 01:18:56,666
it, you know what, I want to

565
01:18:56,875 --> 01:18:58,666
I work so hard on this. I want to make

566
01:18:58,666 --> 01:19:00,208
sure that people get you said.

567
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:03,708
It's a bit of a it's quite common

568
01:19:03,708 --> 01:19:05,000
actually in the Netherlands that

569
01:19:05,458 --> 01:19:07,583
that you design your thesis and that it's

570
01:19:07,583 --> 01:19:09,750
also still printed as a book.

571
01:19:10,458 --> 01:19:12,875
I love it. Yeah, so it's really nice. But

572
01:19:12,875 --> 01:19:15,208
I, I mean, I always say I

573
01:19:15,208 --> 01:19:17,250
spend I can I can spend days

574
01:19:17,291 --> 01:19:19,458
designing a graph or a paper or

575
01:19:19,458 --> 01:19:21,875
something. So I really like visualizing

576
01:19:21,875 --> 01:19:24,250
stuff. Awesome. So then,

577
01:19:24,250 --> 01:19:26,166
yeah, of course, I also want my teachers

578
01:19:26,166 --> 01:19:27,250
to look at look a certain

579
01:19:27,250 --> 01:19:28,875
way. But I had help from a

580
01:19:28,875 --> 01:19:31,833
designer. So that was that's, that's

581
01:19:31,833 --> 01:19:32,458
awesome. Because you don't

582
01:19:32,458 --> 01:19:34,083
see that often. Like, well,

583
01:19:34,083 --> 01:19:35,958
I don't see that often. And, you know,

584
01:19:35,958 --> 01:19:37,000
you write your thesis, and

585
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:38,083
then you kind of set it aside,

586
01:19:38,500 --> 01:19:40,166
you know, and you use it. Yeah, look at

587
01:19:40,166 --> 01:19:43,333
the pictures. That's unreal. And that's

588
01:19:43,333 --> 01:19:44,875
the back of the book. Yeah,

589
01:19:44,875 --> 01:19:46,958
that's the cool because the drawings on

590
01:19:46,958 --> 01:19:49,125
the back there made by by one of the

591
01:19:49,125 --> 01:19:49,958
master's students that

592
01:19:49,958 --> 01:19:51,500
did this project with me and then the

593
01:19:51,500 --> 01:19:52,583
drawings on the cover is

594
01:19:52,583 --> 01:19:53,708
another master's student.

595
01:19:54,083 --> 01:19:56,791
Love it. So it was really, yeah, really

596
01:19:56,791 --> 01:19:58,166
nice. Yeah, for those who are

597
01:19:58,166 --> 01:19:59,666
listening to the to the audio

598
01:19:59,916 --> 01:20:01,875
version of this, I highly recommend that

599
01:20:01,875 --> 01:20:02,500
you go to our YouTube

600
01:20:02,500 --> 01:20:04,000
channel. Check it out because

601
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:07,458
it's a really cool and look at the

602
01:20:07,458 --> 01:20:09,291
photos. That's awesome. That's amazing.

603
01:20:10,083 --> 01:20:11,333
Yeah, but I think this is this is

604
01:20:11,333 --> 01:20:13,166
important if you want people to

605
01:20:13,750 --> 01:20:16,666
know what your thesis is about, right? If

606
01:20:16,666 --> 01:20:18,416
you just put it up in the school library

607
01:20:18,416 --> 01:20:20,083
or whatever in the University library,

608
01:20:20,666 --> 01:20:22,541
people may not pick it up just to see it.

609
01:20:22,541 --> 01:20:24,125
People are visual. A lot of people are

610
01:20:24,125 --> 01:20:24,833
visual learners. They

611
01:20:24,833 --> 01:20:25,916
want to see the pictures.

612
01:20:25,916 --> 01:20:27,958
They want to see the effort put in. I

613
01:20:27,958 --> 01:20:30,416
really, really like this. This has got me

614
01:20:30,416 --> 01:20:32,041
all jazzed up. I really like the way to

615
01:20:32,083 --> 01:20:34,375
did the University pay for it. Did you

616
01:20:34,375 --> 01:20:37,083
have to go over and pay for it yourself?

617
01:20:37,791 --> 01:20:40,666
Well, it was a bit bigger than normally.

618
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:43,250
So in that sense, no, but like we we got

619
01:20:43,250 --> 01:20:45,916
some project funding also for it and the

620
01:20:45,916 --> 01:20:47,166
University plays it.

621
01:20:47,500 --> 01:20:50,250
Awesome. So yeah, so that's really, yeah,

622
01:20:50,250 --> 01:20:52,416
really nice. And I also think like it's

623
01:20:52,416 --> 01:20:54,583
really important because of course we

624
01:20:54,583 --> 01:20:55,875
work on species that

625
01:20:56,583 --> 01:20:59,958
often sell themselves also. But of

626
01:20:59,958 --> 01:21:03,916
course, they're so fascinating. And yeah,

627
01:21:03,916 --> 01:21:05,500
if you can show that in such a way, I

628
01:21:05,500 --> 01:21:06,791
really like to do that.

629
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:09,041
And I also try it in lectures or

630
01:21:09,041 --> 01:21:11,333
presentations I give is like make it very

631
01:21:11,333 --> 01:21:15,375
visual and not too much.

632
01:21:15,583 --> 01:21:18,666
There's a lot of text in this book. Well,

633
01:21:18,666 --> 01:21:19,791
just so people know, there's

634
01:21:19,791 --> 01:21:21,166
like there's like 11 chapters,

635
01:21:21,291 --> 01:21:23,250
which I gather to me probably about 11

636
01:21:23,250 --> 01:21:26,708
papers out of that. And they're all

637
01:21:26,708 --> 01:21:30,083
they're just, yeah, I just started going

638
01:21:30,083 --> 01:21:32,500
through it. I thought when I first got it

639
01:21:32,500 --> 01:21:35,250
last year, I just like just about pretty

640
01:21:35,250 --> 01:21:36,791
much gone through the whole thing, whole

641
01:21:36,791 --> 01:21:38,333
thing, like front to

642
01:21:38,333 --> 01:21:40,000
back was frickin amazing.

643
01:21:40,541 --> 01:21:43,333
Amazing. So it's good. It's good to hear

644
01:21:43,333 --> 01:21:45,375
that at least somebody is reading it.

645
01:21:45,583 --> 01:21:48,041
Yeah, I just was. Well, it's so nice when

646
01:21:48,041 --> 01:21:50,458
I got it. I was like, thanks for sending

647
01:21:50,458 --> 01:21:51,875
me a copy. But it was just like, I just

648
01:21:51,875 --> 01:21:53,958
read through it. I go like, wow, this is

649
01:21:53,958 --> 01:21:55,000
like freaking amazing.

650
01:21:55,500 --> 01:21:56,875
So thank you. Thank you.

651
01:21:57,208 --> 01:21:59,250
But anyway, so hopefully, I just get it.

652
01:21:59,541 --> 01:22:00,791
I don't know how much how many of those

653
01:22:00,791 --> 01:22:03,500
papers you've published so far. But yeah,

654
01:22:03,791 --> 01:22:05,375
yeah. So the first thing I

655
01:22:05,375 --> 01:22:07,958
got back to the 11 chapters.

656
01:22:09,041 --> 01:22:10,750
The first one is the introduction. And

657
01:22:10,750 --> 01:22:12,541
the last one is like a synthesis kind of

658
01:22:12,541 --> 01:22:13,916
chapter. So, you know, we don't publish

659
01:22:13,916 --> 01:22:18,125
those. But yeah, there's there's one. I'm

660
01:22:18,125 --> 01:22:20,416
waiting for the for the proof. And then

661
01:22:20,416 --> 01:22:23,166
there is one more that I need to submit.

662
01:22:24,083 --> 01:22:26,208
So, and then they're all published.

663
01:22:27,083 --> 01:22:28,375
Yeah, that's yeah. That was that was

664
01:22:28,375 --> 01:22:30,000
pretty, I said it was pretty awesome. It

665
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:31,916
was pretty awesome. Not knocking other

666
01:22:31,916 --> 01:22:34,000
people finishing their thesis, but it was

667
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:36,291
it was pretty awesome, though, the way

668
01:22:36,291 --> 01:22:38,500
the whole thing looks. So anyway, anyway,

669
01:22:38,500 --> 01:22:40,083
but now you just finished like last June,

670
01:22:40,083 --> 01:22:43,250
was it about almost about almost a year,

671
01:22:43,416 --> 01:22:45,000
about a year ago, yeah, almost a year

672
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:47,666
ago, even though this episode will

673
01:22:47,666 --> 01:22:49,041
probably end of Aaron and June. So it'll

674
01:22:49,041 --> 01:22:49,875
be about the one year.

675
01:22:49,916 --> 01:22:50,791
And a voracious thing.

676
01:22:52,458 --> 01:22:53,833
But we're, yeah.

677
01:22:54,333 --> 01:22:55,666
It's scary to think that

678
01:22:55,666 --> 01:22:57,125
it's already one year ago.

679
01:22:57,708 --> 01:22:57,916
Yeah.

680
01:22:58,583 --> 01:23:00,875
I won't tell you how many years it's been

681
01:23:00,875 --> 01:23:01,833
since I finished mine,

682
01:23:02,125 --> 01:23:03,916
but it's been a while.

683
01:23:04,500 --> 01:23:05,458
So, yeah.

684
01:23:05,625 --> 01:23:06,416
It's been over 20

685
01:23:06,416 --> 01:23:07,791
years for Rhymaster, so.

686
01:23:08,250 --> 01:23:08,750
Yeah, I know.

687
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:10,500
It's funny how that sneaks up on you.

688
01:23:10,500 --> 01:23:11,291
All of a sudden it's

689
01:23:11,291 --> 01:23:12,333
like, oh, it's been a year.

690
01:23:12,333 --> 01:23:13,791
And then suddenly it's been 20 years.

691
01:23:13,791 --> 01:23:14,583
And then it's been like,

692
01:23:14,916 --> 01:23:15,666
then it's been like,

693
01:23:15,666 --> 01:23:16,458
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

694
01:23:16,458 --> 01:23:18,291
a lot longer than that.

695
01:23:18,916 --> 01:23:20,000
Okay, so I should be happy.

696
01:23:20,166 --> 01:23:21,166
It's just one year.

697
01:23:21,208 --> 01:23:22,291
Oh yeah, I know, be happy.

698
01:23:22,666 --> 01:23:23,041
Yeah, it's still fresh.

699
01:23:23,625 --> 01:23:25,750
Yeah, it's still fresh and get it,

700
01:23:25,750 --> 01:23:26,375
and just, yeah, get

701
01:23:26,375 --> 01:23:27,458
some of the stuff out.

702
01:23:27,708 --> 01:23:30,000
So you got, so you finished that.

703
01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:31,333
And this was all, it was all, you know,

704
01:23:31,333 --> 01:23:32,625
based in your Africa work,

705
01:23:32,958 --> 01:23:34,833
but you're also doing a lot of some work

706
01:23:34,833 --> 01:23:36,666
in the, in like the Dutch Caribbean.

707
01:23:36,916 --> 01:23:38,041
Like where, where are

708
01:23:38,041 --> 01:23:39,625
you exactly working there?

709
01:23:40,458 --> 01:23:41,000
Yeah, yeah.

710
01:23:41,458 --> 01:23:42,958
So now after my PhD,

711
01:23:43,125 --> 01:23:44,583
so I'm also still working in the

712
01:23:44,625 --> 01:23:45,500
Guinea-Bissau actually

713
01:23:45,500 --> 01:23:48,458
as part of a post-op,

714
01:23:49,916 --> 01:23:50,916
but I'm also, I'm

715
01:23:50,916 --> 01:23:52,000
actually started doing that

716
01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:53,250
in my master's already.

717
01:23:53,916 --> 01:23:56,541
I'm involved in more like

718
01:23:56,541 --> 01:23:58,541
a movement ecology project

719
01:23:59,375 --> 01:24:02,791
in the Dutch Caribbean, Islands of Saba,

720
01:24:03,333 --> 01:24:05,083
Cinderstasius and

721
01:24:05,083 --> 01:24:06,166
Saint Martin in between.

722
01:24:08,500 --> 01:24:10,250
So yeah, we basically

723
01:24:10,250 --> 01:24:12,041
have a big dataset on

724
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:15,541
acoustic telemetry of

725
01:24:15,541 --> 01:24:16,708
Caribbean reef sharks,

726
01:24:17,750 --> 01:24:17,791
(indistinct)

727
01:24:18,541 --> 01:24:20,791
bear sharks, some tiger sharks.

728
01:24:22,375 --> 01:24:22,833
Yeah, and that's a

729
01:24:22,833 --> 01:24:25,500
dataset I think spans back

730
01:24:25,583 --> 01:24:26,625
almost 10 years now.

731
01:24:27,000 --> 01:24:28,583
So, see, and that's

732
01:24:28,583 --> 01:24:29,708
also confronting for me

733
01:24:29,708 --> 01:24:32,541
because that means 10 years ago, I think,

734
01:24:33,083 --> 01:24:34,458
I did my project.

735
01:24:35,333 --> 01:24:39,041
So that is, yeah, the

736
01:24:39,041 --> 01:24:40,125
start of my master's.

737
01:24:40,500 --> 01:24:41,666
Yeah, so, so you see

738
01:24:41,666 --> 01:24:42,666
how it sneaks up on you.

739
01:24:42,666 --> 01:24:43,416
You went from one year

740
01:24:43,416 --> 01:24:44,750
for your PhD to 10 years.

741
01:24:45,166 --> 01:24:48,708
So, yeah, it won't get any better.

742
01:24:49,916 --> 01:24:51,000
Yeah, so yeah, it sneaks

743
01:24:51,000 --> 01:24:52,166
up on you pretty quickly.

744
01:24:52,500 --> 01:24:53,625
And you're still actively

745
01:24:53,625 --> 01:24:54,833
working on some of those projects

746
01:24:54,916 --> 01:24:55,875
now you said?

747
01:24:56,666 --> 01:24:58,833
Yeah, so we have, we have funding to,

748
01:24:59,791 --> 01:25:00,833
to continue that project.

749
01:25:01,041 --> 01:25:02,750
So where I think this

750
01:25:02,750 --> 01:25:04,166
November we'll go there,

751
01:25:05,291 --> 01:25:07,541
focus on some different shark species.

752
01:25:07,833 --> 01:25:08,875
We have a big dataset

753
01:25:08,875 --> 01:25:10,000
on Caribbean reef sharks.

754
01:25:10,625 --> 01:25:10,750
Wow.

755
01:25:12,541 --> 01:25:14,125
I think in total, I wouldn't

756
01:25:14,125 --> 01:25:16,083
say like over 50 individuals

757
01:25:16,291 --> 01:25:17,500
with transmitters.

758
01:25:18,833 --> 01:25:20,666
So I think we have enough of those.

759
01:25:20,666 --> 01:25:22,291
So I think we're going to focus more on,

760
01:25:22,291 --> 01:25:23,375
on tagging near sharks

761
01:25:23,375 --> 01:25:24,958
and tiger sharks also.

762
01:25:24,958 --> 01:25:25,666
Oh, okay.

763
01:25:26,041 --> 01:25:27,041
Yeah, I look forward to that.

764
01:25:27,333 --> 01:25:29,291
We do some trophic ecology there as well.

765
01:25:29,291 --> 01:25:31,916
So really trying to explain niche,

766
01:25:31,916 --> 01:25:33,875
niche overlap using the telemetry,

767
01:25:33,875 --> 01:25:35,833
but also looking at stabilized types.

768
01:25:37,125 --> 01:25:38,250
Specifically, I was actually

769
01:25:38,250 --> 01:25:39,750
doing the analysis just now,

770
01:25:40,416 --> 01:25:42,458
juvenile silky sharks and juvenile

771
01:25:42,458 --> 01:25:43,416
peruvian reef sharks.

772
01:25:44,541 --> 01:25:46,125
So that's quite interesting.

773
01:25:46,791 --> 01:25:47,541
Are you doing much

774
01:25:47,541 --> 01:25:49,000
diving on that project?

775
01:25:50,041 --> 01:25:52,750
Not really to be honest,

776
01:25:52,750 --> 01:25:54,791
because while I wasn't working on this

777
01:25:54,791 --> 01:25:56,291
project during my PhD,

778
01:25:56,291 --> 01:25:58,000
I was involved with the data analysis.

779
01:25:58,958 --> 01:26:00,791
Hopefully next time we go there,

780
01:26:01,458 --> 01:26:02,375
there will be some diving,

781
01:26:02,375 --> 01:26:05,166
but Dutch law is a bit complicated

782
01:26:05,541 --> 01:26:07,250
when it comes to diving for your job.

783
01:26:07,625 --> 01:26:09,250
You need to have a lot

784
01:26:09,250 --> 01:26:11,041
of training and insurance.

785
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:13,500
So that's a bit of a hurdle

786
01:26:13,500 --> 01:26:15,541
that we have to take first.

787
01:26:16,166 --> 01:26:17,208
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

788
01:26:17,208 --> 01:26:19,166
Well, and then the other project is a

789
01:26:19,166 --> 01:26:19,958
newer project you

790
01:26:19,958 --> 01:26:21,791
mentioned is in the North Sea.

791
01:26:22,750 --> 01:26:24,000
Yeah, yep, yep.

792
01:26:24,666 --> 01:26:25,958
So, okay.

793
01:26:26,541 --> 01:26:26,791
Yeah.

794
01:26:26,833 --> 01:26:28,166
What are you doing there?

795
01:26:28,958 --> 01:26:29,708
Yeah, it's a bit of a

796
01:26:29,708 --> 01:26:30,750
diversity in projects.

797
01:26:32,291 --> 01:26:33,958
If we talk about it like this.

798
01:26:34,583 --> 01:26:36,083
So that's actually a

799
01:26:36,083 --> 01:26:38,250
project that still has to start,

800
01:26:38,500 --> 01:26:42,041
but over the next three years,

801
01:26:42,041 --> 01:26:44,583
we'll be looking at also acoustic

802
01:26:44,583 --> 01:26:47,458
telemetry of quite a range of species.

803
01:26:47,875 --> 01:26:49,041
So we have toque, smote

804
01:26:49,041 --> 01:26:52,875
hound, small spotted cat shark,

805
01:26:53,791 --> 01:26:54,500
but also some skate

806
01:26:54,500 --> 01:26:56,916
species, common stingray.

807
01:26:58,291 --> 01:26:59,125
So it's a combination

808
01:26:59,125 --> 01:27:00,250
of acoustic telemetry.

809
01:27:00,291 --> 01:27:02,208
I do that with two good colleagues of

810
01:27:02,208 --> 01:27:04,375
mine who focused more on that part.

811
01:27:04,375 --> 01:27:07,125
And I will be more looking at the food

812
01:27:07,125 --> 01:27:08,791
drive role and segue isotopes,

813
01:27:08,791 --> 01:27:11,875
diet of the species.

814
01:27:12,125 --> 01:27:14,833
And it's a really integrated project to

815
01:27:14,833 --> 01:27:17,208
see how then movement

816
01:27:17,208 --> 01:27:18,583
ecology of the species

817
01:27:18,583 --> 01:27:20,875
also explain their diet, for instance.

818
01:27:21,916 --> 01:27:22,791
Well, it seemed like,

819
01:27:23,125 --> 01:27:25,000
I did a little of this.

820
01:27:25,083 --> 01:27:26,416
I did actually a lot of this when I was

821
01:27:26,416 --> 01:27:28,708
young, like yourself, starting out,

822
01:27:28,750 --> 01:27:30,666
like working in these sort of temperate

823
01:27:30,666 --> 01:27:33,833
cool water, tropical temperate.

824
01:27:34,208 --> 01:27:36,375
It's, I always found kind of fascinating

825
01:27:36,375 --> 01:27:37,666
just sort of trying to look at the

826
01:27:37,666 --> 01:27:40,333
ecological role of different species in

827
01:27:40,333 --> 01:27:41,333
these different systems.

828
01:27:41,708 --> 01:27:43,708
And so even though some of the tropical

829
01:27:43,708 --> 01:27:45,291
ones are probably more diverse,

830
01:27:46,250 --> 01:27:48,708
you probably find the same sort of

831
01:27:48,708 --> 01:27:50,333
species or different species,

832
01:27:50,583 --> 01:27:53,041
but fill in similar roles or niches, but

833
01:27:53,041 --> 01:27:54,791
just in a very different thing.

834
01:27:55,291 --> 01:27:58,291
Yeah, we see that like, for instance, if

835
01:27:58,291 --> 01:27:59,500
I compare Guinea-Bissau,

836
01:27:59,583 --> 01:28:02,458
like that's the whole reason that we

837
01:28:02,458 --> 01:28:04,750
first went to the Piccicosa Archipelago.

838
01:28:05,125 --> 01:28:07,708
It's that it resembles a tropical version

839
01:28:07,708 --> 01:28:11,125
of our Waddensie coastal area that we

840
01:28:11,125 --> 01:28:11,750
have in the Netherlands.

841
01:28:13,583 --> 01:28:16,500
But of course, species richness wise or

842
01:28:16,500 --> 01:28:18,958
species composition wise,

843
01:28:18,958 --> 01:28:19,833
it's completely different.

844
01:28:19,916 --> 01:28:23,333
It has much more sharks and shark species

845
01:28:23,333 --> 01:28:24,791
than what we have in the Netherlands and

846
01:28:24,791 --> 01:28:27,333
much bigger also, completely different

847
01:28:27,333 --> 01:28:30,583
food availability also.

848
01:28:30,875 --> 01:28:32,875
It's also very similar in a way.

849
01:28:33,625 --> 01:28:35,250
Well, even like the rays you'd have

850
01:28:35,250 --> 01:28:38,166
skates are probably more common, pretty

851
01:28:38,166 --> 01:28:39,416
much the common species there.

852
01:28:39,416 --> 01:28:41,166
And you don't probably have as much, I

853
01:28:41,166 --> 01:28:42,375
don't even know if you even have any like

854
01:28:42,375 --> 01:28:43,250
a guitar fish or

855
01:28:43,250 --> 01:28:45,166
anything up in that part at all.

856
01:28:45,791 --> 01:28:50,166
We have the Dasyat spasinaka, common

857
01:28:50,166 --> 01:28:51,708
stingray, but that's for

858
01:28:51,708 --> 01:28:52,833
the rest, they're all skates.

859
01:28:53,208 --> 01:28:54,625
All skates, yeah. And then down in

860
01:28:54,625 --> 01:28:55,583
Guinea-Bissau, you probably don't have

861
01:28:55,583 --> 01:28:56,500
any skates you're dealing

862
01:28:56,500 --> 01:28:57,500
with at all, I'm guessing.

863
01:28:58,125 --> 01:29:00,375
No, I've seen one skate species.

864
01:29:02,750 --> 01:29:04,416
And now I don't remember the species

865
01:29:04,416 --> 01:29:06,333
name, but in one of the fisheries

866
01:29:06,333 --> 01:29:08,291
databases from the

867
01:29:08,291 --> 01:29:09,541
Bongna Gensa, Mauritania.

868
01:29:10,083 --> 01:29:10,416
Okay.

869
01:29:11,291 --> 01:29:12,291
But it's, yeah, in

870
01:29:12,291 --> 01:29:13,583
Guinea-Bissau, I've never seen a skate.

871
01:29:14,291 --> 01:29:16,041
Yeah, they probably, I'm sure most of

872
01:29:16,041 --> 01:29:18,333
them are offshore, deeper, deeper water.

873
01:29:18,333 --> 01:29:18,791
Yeah, exactly.

874
01:29:19,125 --> 01:29:20,833
Yeah, well, that's kind of cool.

875
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:23,541
So you're doing, I was reading some of

876
01:29:23,541 --> 01:29:25,625
the stuff you're doing, like what type of

877
01:29:25,625 --> 01:29:27,000
stuff you do with hammerhead sharks?

878
01:29:27,000 --> 01:29:27,833
Is that more in the crib,

879
01:29:28,041 --> 01:29:29,000
back in the Caribbean again?

880
01:29:29,666 --> 01:29:32,375
No, that's more in West Africa.

881
01:29:33,083 --> 01:29:33,291
Okay.

882
01:29:33,791 --> 01:29:36,500
Yeah, so we actually, I just came back,

883
01:29:36,916 --> 01:29:37,791
what is it, two, three

884
01:29:37,791 --> 01:29:39,458
weeks ago from Guinea-Bissau.

885
01:29:39,875 --> 01:29:43,625
We set out to find black-chimed guitar

886
01:29:43,625 --> 01:29:48,458
fish and scalloped hammerheads, to put

887
01:29:48,458 --> 01:29:51,125
pop-up archival tags on them.

888
01:29:51,875 --> 01:29:53,041
We couldn't find the hammerheads,

889
01:29:53,041 --> 01:29:55,541
unfortunately, but we did before, but

890
01:29:55,541 --> 01:29:58,500
they were too small to be tagged.

891
01:29:59,250 --> 01:30:01,208
We did find a lot of black-chimed guitar

892
01:30:01,208 --> 01:30:02,666
fish, so that's good.

893
01:30:02,666 --> 01:30:04,000
We got all our transmitters out.

894
01:30:05,458 --> 01:30:06,416
But it's, yeah, it's quite interesting.

895
01:30:06,458 --> 01:30:10,666
The hammerheads, I have quite a batch of

896
01:30:10,666 --> 01:30:13,458
fin clips of all the

897
01:30:13,458 --> 01:30:14,625
sharks and rays that I work on.

898
01:30:14,833 --> 01:30:17,083
But we had some students look at them,

899
01:30:17,500 --> 01:30:18,791
the fin clips from our

900
01:30:18,791 --> 01:30:20,875
hammerheads in Guinea-Bissau,

901
01:30:21,833 --> 01:30:22,958
thinking they were all scalloped

902
01:30:22,958 --> 01:30:25,041
hammerheads based on their morphology,

903
01:30:25,458 --> 01:30:26,166
that they're all juveniles.

904
01:30:27,166 --> 01:30:29,958
And I think half of them, even ones that

905
01:30:29,958 --> 01:30:32,083
I had in my hand, I was convinced they

906
01:30:32,083 --> 01:30:33,000
were scalloped hammerheads.

907
01:31:00,291 --> 01:31:01,208
They came back as great hammerheads.

908
01:31:01,333 --> 01:31:05,083
I think scalloped is still more common.

909
01:31:30,375 --> 01:31:35,916
I've seen a lot of great hammerheads

910
01:31:35,916 --> 01:31:39,541
before, so I always thought I can

911
01:31:39,541 --> 01:31:40,750
differentiate between

912
01:31:40,750 --> 01:31:41,708
the spaces quite well.

913
01:31:43,166 --> 01:31:45,291
Sometimes you just never know, right? It

914
01:31:45,291 --> 01:31:46,208
will always test you.

915
01:31:46,583 --> 01:31:49,666
What's been the most interesting shark

916
01:31:49,666 --> 01:31:50,583
array in the

917
01:31:50,583 --> 01:31:52,000
Guinea-Bissau and the Martina?

918
01:31:52,000 --> 01:31:53,333
What's the most interesting

919
01:31:53,333 --> 01:31:54,833
one you've come across so far?

920
01:31:56,125 --> 01:32:01,000
That's a good question. I think there's

921
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:02,208
two, like I really

922
01:32:02,208 --> 01:32:05,541
like juvenile bull sharks.

923
01:32:06,458 --> 01:32:09,125
We find them in like really shallow

924
01:32:09,125 --> 01:32:12,333
waters. There's this story that we, like

925
01:32:12,333 --> 01:32:14,041
we walked onto these

926
01:32:14,208 --> 01:32:16,125
intertidal mudflats during low tide

927
01:32:16,125 --> 01:32:20,666
because of other work. We wanted to

928
01:32:20,666 --> 01:32:21,541
sample the food web,

929
01:32:21,583 --> 01:32:23,625
so we had to go onto these mudflats to

930
01:32:23,625 --> 01:32:26,958
collect worms and by those and stuff.

931
01:32:28,541 --> 01:32:30,583
But just before we did that, we deployed

932
01:32:30,583 --> 01:32:32,833
one of our fishing nets

933
01:32:32,833 --> 01:32:35,875
just off that sand flat in like

934
01:32:35,958 --> 01:32:38,916
knee deep water, expecting the tide goes

935
01:32:38,916 --> 01:32:40,458
up and then we start

936
01:32:40,458 --> 01:32:42,333
catching something. And we were on

937
01:32:42,333 --> 01:32:44,750
that mudflat for maybe 20 minutes or so.

938
01:32:45,583 --> 01:32:46,583
And I walked back to

939
01:32:46,583 --> 01:32:48,125
the boat, but the boat was

940
01:32:48,666 --> 01:32:51,291
further out, was too shallow for the boat

941
01:32:51,291 --> 01:32:52,208
to come and pick us up.

942
01:32:52,208 --> 01:32:53,041
So we were walking through

943
01:32:53,041 --> 01:32:54,458
that water and I see something in the

944
01:32:54,458 --> 01:32:58,625
net. And yeah, it was a bull

945
01:32:58,625 --> 01:33:00,833
shark and it was just there

946
01:33:00,916 --> 01:33:03,500
in what, 40 centimeters of water, maybe

947
01:33:03,500 --> 01:33:04,625
50 centimeters of

948
01:33:04,625 --> 01:33:07,875
water. And it was, yeah,

949
01:33:08,833 --> 01:33:11,000
that was my first realization. Like these

950
01:33:11,000 --> 01:33:12,333
animals really use those

951
01:33:12,333 --> 01:33:13,625
in the tidal areas and they

952
01:33:14,041 --> 01:33:16,000
also really go into the shallow waters.

953
01:33:18,500 --> 01:33:19,708
And I think also my

954
01:33:19,708 --> 01:33:21,250
colleagues had to get used to that idea

955
01:33:21,250 --> 01:33:23,541
because they didn't work on sharks. They

956
01:33:23,541 --> 01:33:24,916
didn't expect juveniles bull

957
01:33:24,916 --> 01:33:26,000
sharks there when they jump

958
01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:28,916
off the boat into the water. So when you

959
01:33:28,916 --> 01:33:29,625
say it's juvenile, like

960
01:33:29,625 --> 01:33:30,916
what size are we talking about?

961
01:33:31,291 --> 01:33:34,041
Juvenile. A meter. Oh, meter. Okay.

962
01:33:35,416 --> 01:33:38,000
Small, small. Small, small. Okay. Okay.

963
01:33:38,000 --> 01:33:38,500
Like that wasn't like

964
01:33:38,500 --> 01:33:41,208
a meter and a half, two meters. No, no,

965
01:33:41,208 --> 01:33:43,750
they were like, I think we caught three

966
01:33:43,750 --> 01:33:44,750
on that spot and they

967
01:33:44,750 --> 01:33:46,916
were really within a centimeter from each

968
01:33:46,916 --> 01:33:50,208
other. Okay. So like, 100 centimeters,

969
01:33:50,458 --> 01:33:52,333
102, 103, something like that.

970
01:33:53,291 --> 01:33:55,791
We also see the big ones. So now in our

971
01:33:55,791 --> 01:33:57,250
most recent expedition, we

972
01:33:57,250 --> 01:33:59,000
had one that was two and a

973
01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:04,625
half meters. Yeah, so I just, I really

974
01:34:04,625 --> 01:34:06,333
like bull sharks, just

975
01:34:06,333 --> 01:34:07,541
because of the connectivity with

976
01:34:07,541 --> 01:34:10,833
freshwater systems and they're very

977
01:34:10,833 --> 01:34:12,541
common in Guinea B. So we

978
01:34:12,541 --> 01:34:13,833
see them, we see them breach.

979
01:34:14,500 --> 01:34:16,791
There's one specific spot where we see

980
01:34:16,791 --> 01:34:18,208
them jump like two and

981
01:34:18,208 --> 01:34:19,083
a half meter bull shark.

982
01:34:20,916 --> 01:34:23,666
So it's one specific channel. I don't

983
01:34:23,666 --> 01:34:24,791
think I've ever heard about,

984
01:34:24,791 --> 01:34:25,958
heard that for bull sharks,

985
01:34:25,958 --> 01:34:27,375
other species. I don't think I've heard

986
01:34:27,375 --> 01:34:29,000
for bull sharks that that

987
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:30,250
would be pretty cool to catch on

988
01:34:30,708 --> 01:34:33,916
film sometime. Get those, get those, get

989
01:34:33,916 --> 01:34:35,458
those jumping, get those

990
01:34:35,458 --> 01:34:36,583
literally jumping and stuff.

991
01:34:37,125 --> 01:34:39,750
So you have, so you have, so, so you're

992
01:34:39,750 --> 01:34:40,875
still, you're still like,

993
01:34:40,875 --> 01:34:41,958
how you're still in the middle

994
01:34:41,958 --> 01:34:44,291
of this project here, obviously. You go,

995
01:34:44,291 --> 01:34:45,458
you go say twice a year,

996
01:34:45,458 --> 01:34:47,083
you go there, Tae? We try to,

997
01:34:47,083 --> 01:34:48,666
yeah. We try to, of course, during my

998
01:34:48,666 --> 01:34:51,083
PhD, we had, we had COVID also. So I

999
01:34:51,083 --> 01:34:52,666
didn't go for quite a,

1000
01:34:52,666 --> 01:34:55,250
quite a while. But now for this project

1001
01:34:55,250 --> 01:34:56,666
runs another two years,

1002
01:34:56,666 --> 01:34:57,958
we, I tried to go for two

1003
01:34:58,000 --> 01:35:01,500
expeditions a year. Yeah. Okay. And what,

1004
01:35:01,708 --> 01:35:03,166
and so what are your, what

1005
01:35:03,166 --> 01:35:04,750
are your, what is it with your,

1006
01:35:04,750 --> 01:35:06,625
with your plans as far as like going

1007
01:35:06,625 --> 01:35:08,083
forward on that project?

1008
01:35:08,333 --> 01:35:10,083
What do you, would you have any

1009
01:35:11,541 --> 01:35:13,708
goals or any new goals you're hoping to

1010
01:35:13,708 --> 01:35:14,791
achieve in the next couple

1011
01:35:14,791 --> 01:35:16,583
of years? Yeah. So I think

1012
01:35:17,708 --> 01:35:21,333
the biggest, how do you say the pillar of

1013
01:35:21,333 --> 01:35:22,208
that project or the

1014
01:35:22,208 --> 01:35:24,083
biggest deliverable I would like

1015
01:35:24,125 --> 01:35:26,916
to have is, is really, we're setting up

1016
01:35:26,916 --> 01:35:28,583
this database on, on small scale

1017
01:35:28,583 --> 01:35:31,041
fisheries and specifically

1018
01:35:31,083 --> 01:35:34,208
their shark and ray catches. So I'm

1019
01:35:34,208 --> 01:35:35,958
designing this whole database. There

1020
01:35:35,958 --> 01:35:38,541
exists a survey tool that

1021
01:35:38,541 --> 01:35:40,375
they collect the data with. And then the

1022
01:35:40,375 --> 01:35:41,458
idea is that that data is

1023
01:35:41,458 --> 01:35:42,958
automatically analyzed and

1024
01:35:42,958 --> 01:35:45,083
feedback to the national fisheries

1025
01:35:45,083 --> 01:35:47,041
institute. So that all the shark and ray

1026
01:35:47,041 --> 01:35:48,750
data is species specific

1027
01:35:49,000 --> 01:35:51,916
and readily available. Yeah. Are you

1028
01:35:51,916 --> 01:35:53,041
working with the obviously you're working

1029
01:35:53,041 --> 01:35:53,916
with the community there?

1030
01:35:54,583 --> 01:35:56,750
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, and the big, big

1031
01:35:56,750 --> 01:35:59,166
part is that we, we also train master's

1032
01:35:59,166 --> 01:36:00,625
students. There's two master's

1033
01:36:00,625 --> 01:36:02,083
students on the project now that are

1034
01:36:02,083 --> 01:36:04,458
doing the masses in Portugal. Okay. And

1035
01:36:04,458 --> 01:36:06,000
the idea is that they will be

1036
01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:08,000
trained using this database and actually

1037
01:36:08,000 --> 01:36:10,333
also taking the lead in

1038
01:36:10,333 --> 01:36:12,125
that when the project is done.

1039
01:36:12,500 --> 01:36:15,166
Okay. Okay. And what I got to ask in that

1040
01:36:15,166 --> 01:36:16,458
part of what's the, what's

1041
01:36:16,458 --> 01:36:17,458
the primary language in that

1042
01:36:17,500 --> 01:36:19,958
part of Africa? Is it French? Portuguese.

1043
01:36:20,375 --> 01:36:21,958
Oh, it's Portuguese. Yeah. Yeah. So

1044
01:36:21,958 --> 01:36:23,416
actually, in the

1045
01:36:23,416 --> 01:36:24,375
region, it's quite common

1046
01:36:24,750 --> 01:36:27,208
that countries like that's French is the

1047
01:36:27,208 --> 01:36:29,375
main language, but maybe some Portuguese.

1048
01:36:30,666 --> 01:36:32,458
And then they also speak Creole.

1049
01:36:32,833 --> 01:36:36,833
So a more local language. And then on the

1050
01:36:36,833 --> 01:36:38,458
islands where we work, they also speak

1051
01:36:38,458 --> 01:36:40,000
Pichigo, which is completely

1052
01:36:40,125 --> 01:36:44,250
different to the other two languages. And

1053
01:36:44,250 --> 01:36:46,291
I don't speak any of them. I don't, I

1054
01:36:46,291 --> 01:36:48,125
understand Portuguese. I don't speak it.

1055
01:36:48,541 --> 01:36:50,958
Right. So, and I see that that's a good

1056
01:36:50,958 --> 01:36:54,416
way for me also to really work with local

1057
01:36:54,416 --> 01:36:57,083
students and really making them part of

1058
01:36:57,083 --> 01:37:00,375
our expeditions and also making sure that

1059
01:37:00,375 --> 01:37:04,375
when the project stops or when I am maybe

1060
01:37:04,375 --> 01:37:05,125
not working there

1061
01:37:05,125 --> 01:37:07,000
anymore, that they can take over.

1062
01:37:07,500 --> 01:37:09,708
Right. Right. Yeah. Especially you get to

1063
01:37:09,708 --> 01:37:11,291
get this long-term database going to be

1064
01:37:11,291 --> 01:37:12,708
good to have people, especially local

1065
01:37:12,708 --> 01:37:15,833
people to buy in on the whole, whole

1066
01:37:15,833 --> 01:37:18,708
project and stuff. So where do you see

1067
01:37:18,708 --> 01:37:20,041
you got all this stuff going on now?

1068
01:37:20,041 --> 01:37:20,833
Where do you kind of see

1069
01:37:20,833 --> 01:37:21,958
your career going from here?

1070
01:37:22,000 --> 01:37:27,791
Oh, well, I'm in the postdoc now. So I

1071
01:37:27,791 --> 01:37:31,833
hope to, well, finish those projects

1072
01:37:31,833 --> 01:37:34,833
first. But at some point, yeah, I've

1073
01:37:34,833 --> 01:37:37,416
quite a clear path that I would like to

1074
01:37:37,416 --> 01:37:40,000
go to. I think my fascination is really

1075
01:37:40,000 --> 01:37:42,916
in the, how do you say that the

1076
01:37:42,916 --> 01:37:45,625
ecological role of shards in these large

1077
01:37:45,625 --> 01:37:46,833
intertidal areas, but

1078
01:37:46,833 --> 01:37:47,958
also on whole reefs.

1079
01:37:48,958 --> 01:37:52,625
Maybe also more like looking at a

1080
01:37:52,625 --> 01:37:55,125
comparison and the influences of

1081
01:37:55,125 --> 01:37:59,875
fisheries on their ecological roles. But

1082
01:37:59,875 --> 01:38:01,791
that's really something that like now the

1083
01:38:01,791 --> 01:38:03,666
coming years, I want to really think out

1084
01:38:03,666 --> 01:38:04,791
my own research line

1085
01:38:04,791 --> 01:38:06,958
and work towards that.

1086
01:38:07,958 --> 01:38:11,125
But yeah, hopefully I like working at the

1087
01:38:11,125 --> 01:38:13,000
University and the research Institute

1088
01:38:13,000 --> 01:38:15,583
that I'm at. Hopefully I can stay.

1089
01:38:16,000 --> 01:38:18,125
Hopefully you stay on there.

1090
01:38:19,000 --> 01:38:21,833
Well, let's get what kind of advice would

1091
01:38:21,833 --> 01:38:23,500
you have for like a young person just

1092
01:38:23,500 --> 01:38:25,000
starting out even though you are young,

1093
01:38:25,000 --> 01:38:27,583
you're just a kid to me, but. But if

1094
01:38:27,583 --> 01:38:29,208
someone say younger is like maybe

1095
01:38:29,208 --> 01:38:31,625
starting college and stuff wants to

1096
01:38:31,625 --> 01:38:32,625
pursue a career, what

1097
01:38:32,625 --> 01:38:32,958
advice would you have for them?

1098
01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:36,791
Yeah, that's a nice question. I get quite

1099
01:38:36,791 --> 01:38:39,000
some students now and that makes me feel

1100
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:43,708
older. So quite some students asking me

1101
01:38:43,708 --> 01:38:45,708
like, hey, can I do a project with you?

1102
01:38:45,958 --> 01:38:49,750
And I would say like, especially for like

1103
01:38:49,750 --> 01:38:51,791
students in the Netherlands also, it's,

1104
01:38:51,791 --> 01:38:53,166
as I said, it's not a country that's

1105
01:38:53,166 --> 01:38:54,958
known for charts. If you really want to

1106
01:38:54,958 --> 01:38:57,916
pursue something like that, be prepared

1107
01:38:57,916 --> 01:38:59,958
to work your ass off.

1108
01:39:00,000 --> 01:39:07,083
You have to really find the projects and

1109
01:39:07,083 --> 01:39:14,333
travel a lot. But also try to be part of

1110
01:39:14,333 --> 01:39:17,958
those projects from an early stage.

1111
01:39:18,000 --> 01:39:21,375
Early stage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And get a

1112
01:39:21,375 --> 01:39:24,500
lot of field experience. Yeah. And see if

1113
01:39:24,500 --> 01:39:27,458
you can publish with your supervisors at

1114
01:39:27,458 --> 01:39:29,041
an early stage in your career, because

1115
01:39:29,041 --> 01:39:31,375
that's really where you learn all the all

1116
01:39:31,375 --> 01:39:32,416
the parts of what

1117
01:39:32,416 --> 01:39:33,500
it's like to do research.

1118
01:39:35,541 --> 01:39:37,625
And don't like what I what I often get

1119
01:39:37,625 --> 01:39:39,458
from students is that they want to do

1120
01:39:39,458 --> 01:39:42,666
field work. And I, I understand that

1121
01:39:42,666 --> 01:39:45,000
because that's often the nicest part. But

1122
01:39:45,000 --> 01:39:47,500
if you collect a lot of data in the

1123
01:39:47,500 --> 01:39:49,291
field, but you can't make sense of it

1124
01:39:49,291 --> 01:39:51,083
afterwards on the computer, then.

1125
01:39:52,583 --> 01:39:54,958
Yeah, that's not going to work.

1126
01:39:55,041 --> 01:39:56,750
Yeah, that's true. Publish the guys that

1127
01:39:56,750 --> 01:39:59,333
published. That's great. That's great.

1128
01:39:59,333 --> 01:40:01,291
That's great. You know, I really want to

1129
01:40:01,291 --> 01:40:02,958
thank you for coming on the show and

1130
01:40:02,958 --> 01:40:04,958
sharing your experiences and everything.

1131
01:40:04,958 --> 01:40:07,791
And we'll definitely have to do it.

1132
01:40:08,333 --> 01:40:09,500
Sometimes I've got to go with you on

1133
01:40:09,500 --> 01:40:11,166
expedition, see if we can find this this

1134
01:40:11,166 --> 01:40:14,750
false shark ray sometime. That's like I

1135
01:40:14,750 --> 01:40:17,458
think you will love it. Oh, regional. So

1136
01:40:17,458 --> 01:40:18,958
yeah, it's yeah. Yeah.

1137
01:40:19,125 --> 01:40:21,250
Yeah. Another lost shark guy episode.

1138
01:40:21,708 --> 01:40:23,916
Lost shark episode. So a shark guy. Yep.

1139
01:40:24,583 --> 01:40:26,500
Check out. Yep. Absolutely. Anyway,

1140
01:40:27,250 --> 01:40:28,958
thanks. Thank you very much. Guido for

1141
01:40:28,958 --> 01:40:32,625
joining us today and best of luck on your

1142
01:40:32,625 --> 01:40:35,000
on your projects there. Thank you for

1143
01:40:35,000 --> 01:40:36,250
having me. Thank you very much.

1144
01:40:36,625 --> 01:40:37,375
Absolutely. Look forward to

1145
01:40:37,375 --> 01:40:38,958
having you back on. Thanks.

1146
01:40:39,583 --> 01:40:41,166
Thank you, Guido for joining us here on

1147
01:40:41,166 --> 01:40:43,250
the Beyond Jaws podcast. Dave, you know,

1148
01:40:43,458 --> 01:40:45,666
I love the fact that we have a researcher

1149
01:40:45,666 --> 01:40:47,750
on that's talking about that's doing

1150
01:40:47,750 --> 01:40:49,125
research on a number of different

1151
01:40:49,125 --> 01:40:51,500
species. I think that's a real asset, not

1152
01:40:51,500 --> 01:40:53,208
only for his career, but also just for

1153
01:40:53,208 --> 01:40:55,041
sharks in general to have somebody who's

1154
01:40:55,041 --> 01:40:56,833
looking at questions that go across

1155
01:40:56,833 --> 01:40:58,083
different species. How

1156
01:40:58,083 --> 01:40:59,958
important is that to shark science?

1157
01:41:00,250 --> 01:41:02,125
Oh, it is. You know, he's he's he's

1158
01:41:02,125 --> 01:41:03,958
covered a lot of different tax. And you

1159
01:41:03,958 --> 01:41:05,916
also in a good in addition to working in

1160
01:41:05,916 --> 01:41:07,500
all these different aspects that he's

1161
01:41:07,500 --> 01:41:09,625
covering, he's also working in a part of

1162
01:41:09,625 --> 01:41:10,833
the world. There's almost nothing known

1163
01:41:10,833 --> 01:41:12,500
about and you know, that sort of West

1164
01:41:12,500 --> 01:41:13,541
African area, Guinea

1165
01:41:13,541 --> 01:41:14,958
Bissau and more attainable.

1166
01:41:14,958 --> 01:41:16,916
I mean, these are as he explained, these

1167
01:41:16,916 --> 01:41:20,125
are not easy areas to work in. And you go

1168
01:41:20,125 --> 01:41:21,791
in there. It's it's you're out. You're

1169
01:41:21,791 --> 01:41:23,750
out in the field there where I know he's

1170
01:41:23,750 --> 01:41:24,833
told me in the past, like, you know, they

1171
01:41:24,833 --> 01:41:26,291
got to find certain areas to just to try

1172
01:41:26,291 --> 01:41:27,708
to even get like an Internet connection

1173
01:41:27,708 --> 01:41:29,500
or anything if they're out there. Of

1174
01:41:29,500 --> 01:41:31,083
course, when I used to field work, we

1175
01:41:31,083 --> 01:41:31,833
didn't have Internet.

1176
01:41:31,833 --> 01:41:33,875
So you just learned to suck it up in my

1177
01:41:33,875 --> 01:41:37,833
opinion. But but, you know, he's he's

1178
01:41:37,833 --> 01:41:39,291
going to those places that most people

1179
01:41:39,291 --> 01:41:42,333
could not get into. And he's looking at

1180
01:41:42,333 --> 01:41:43,708
he's looking for species that there's

1181
01:41:43,708 --> 01:41:43,958
almost nothing known about that.

1182
01:41:43,958 --> 01:41:45,458
There's nothing known about them. And yet

1183
01:41:45,458 --> 01:41:46,416
there's these are some of the most

1184
01:41:46,416 --> 01:41:48,500
critically endangered species in the

1185
01:41:48,500 --> 01:41:50,083
world. Some of these, some of these,

1186
01:41:50,083 --> 01:41:51,208
especially some of the guitar fish and

1187
01:41:51,208 --> 01:41:53,083
wedge fish that he's he's found out

1188
01:41:53,083 --> 01:41:55,583
there. His search for this, the more

1189
01:41:55,583 --> 01:41:56,625
attaining wedge fish.

1190
01:41:56,958 --> 01:41:58,958
We talked a little bit about which is one

1191
01:41:58,958 --> 01:42:00,916
of definitely a priority for me to like

1192
01:42:00,916 --> 01:42:02,333
like to join him in one of his

1193
01:42:02,333 --> 01:42:04,083
expeditions sometime and see if we can go

1194
01:42:04,083 --> 01:42:05,416
find this thing. That'd be amazing.

1195
01:42:06,000 --> 01:42:07,875
I mean, that's the species hasn't been

1196
01:42:07,875 --> 01:42:10,125
seen in decades. And, you know, we kind

1197
01:42:10,125 --> 01:42:12,541
of worried about that one. But he's got a

1198
01:42:12,541 --> 01:42:14,250
fascinating story. Is it coming from the

1199
01:42:14,250 --> 01:42:16,000
Netherlands? He just did a school in

1200
01:42:16,000 --> 01:42:18,000
there, found people that he could work

1201
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:19,125
on, they could work with.

1202
01:42:19,125 --> 01:42:21,125
And he's just he's he does. He's super

1203
01:42:21,125 --> 01:42:23,458
busy. He goes out. He does these eco

1204
01:42:23,458 --> 01:42:26,500
tours out to the Azores with people for

1205
01:42:26,500 --> 01:42:28,500
diving with sharks. He goes to Africa.

1206
01:42:28,500 --> 01:42:29,958
He's teaching. He's lecturing.

1207
01:42:29,958 --> 01:42:32,500
He's starting to mentor students. I mean,

1208
01:42:32,500 --> 01:42:34,375
he's just just he's kind of doing it all

1209
01:42:34,375 --> 01:42:36,250
right now. Of course, he's at that early

1210
01:42:36,250 --> 01:42:38,000
stage of his career where you're pretty

1211
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:40,125
young and enthusiastic. And you know,

1212
01:42:40,125 --> 01:42:41,958
it's why not figure things out, right?

1213
01:42:42,291 --> 01:42:43,916
Yeah. Oh, yeah. He loves the best. Yeah.

1214
01:42:43,916 --> 01:42:46,333
Yep. Yep. And that was fascinating story.

1215
01:42:46,333 --> 01:42:47,666
I was really glad we had him on. Well,

1216
01:42:47,666 --> 01:42:49,000
definitely he's definitely will

1217
01:42:49,000 --> 01:42:50,958
definitely have him back on later on and

1218
01:42:50,958 --> 01:42:53,500
see how he talks about some more in depth

1219
01:42:53,500 --> 01:42:55,958
as few as his projects. But yeah, it was

1220
01:42:55,958 --> 01:42:57,958
really good. And I tell the audience to

1221
01:42:57,958 --> 01:42:58,958
it took us like close to a year to after.

1222
01:42:59,166 --> 01:43:00,875
Close to a year to actually get him on

1223
01:43:00,875 --> 01:43:02,875
because he finished his PhD last year and

1224
01:43:02,875 --> 01:43:05,166
I wanted to have on right then, but he

1225
01:43:05,166 --> 01:43:07,875
was just so busy and on the go that we

1226
01:43:07,875 --> 01:43:09,583
just it was just taking us, like I said,

1227
01:43:09,583 --> 01:43:11,083
probably about nine, 10 months to like

1228
01:43:11,083 --> 01:43:13,333
finally find a time we could all meet up.

1229
01:43:13,708 --> 01:43:15,750
So yeah, anyway, good at least a good

1230
01:43:15,750 --> 01:43:17,125
last month and a half. We're just trying

1231
01:43:17,125 --> 01:43:18,375
to like, when are you? Well, I'm in the

1232
01:43:18,375 --> 01:43:20,458
field for seven weeks. Oh, okay. That's

1233
01:43:20,458 --> 01:43:22,375
yeah. We're jealous, but that's good to

1234
01:43:22,375 --> 01:43:23,916
hear. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah,

1235
01:43:23,916 --> 01:43:25,541
yeah. Let me ask you this, David. It's a

1236
01:43:25,541 --> 01:43:27,083
bit of a tangent, but it kind of goes off

1237
01:43:27,083 --> 01:43:28,958
like, you know, Guido looks

1238
01:43:29,000 --> 01:43:31,166
for, you know, critically endangered

1239
01:43:31,166 --> 01:43:33,208
species and new species. Obviously, it's

1240
01:43:33,208 --> 01:43:34,375
something that you have in common with

1241
01:43:34,375 --> 01:43:37,208
them. You've made a career out of it. It

1242
01:43:37,208 --> 01:43:40,375
seems a lot in the news lately that, you

1243
01:43:40,375 --> 01:43:42,208
know, biodiversity is under attack

1244
01:43:42,208 --> 01:43:45,458
species at risk or newly discovered

1245
01:43:45,458 --> 01:43:47,083
species or species who have gone extinct

1246
01:43:47,083 --> 01:43:49,250
or have thought to gone extinct as many

1247
01:43:49,250 --> 01:43:51,500
of the ones that you've seen. Why is it

1248
01:43:51,500 --> 01:43:54,750
so important that we focus in on these

1249
01:43:54,750 --> 01:43:56,708
species? Not only from like a science and

1250
01:43:56,708 --> 01:43:58,000
discovery point, but

1251
01:43:58,000 --> 01:43:58,958
also from a particular

1252
01:43:59,000 --> 01:44:00,500
protection standpoint. And I'm being a

1253
01:44:00,500 --> 01:44:02,750
little selfish here, Dave, because in in

1254
01:44:02,750 --> 01:44:05,375
Ontario, they've just they've just gutted

1255
01:44:05,375 --> 01:44:07,333
a species at risk and endangered species

1256
01:44:07,333 --> 01:44:09,625
in Ontario. And, you know, a lot of

1257
01:44:09,625 --> 01:44:11,500
people aren't really sticking up for it

1258
01:44:11,500 --> 01:44:12,541
because it's like, well, we need to

1259
01:44:12,541 --> 01:44:13,916
develop and this and that. And they're

1260
01:44:13,916 --> 01:44:15,333
destroying habitat and they're destroying

1261
01:44:15,333 --> 01:44:18,000
this and that. Why is it so hard to sell

1262
01:44:18,000 --> 01:44:19,500
biodiversity on people? And why is it so

1263
01:44:19,500 --> 01:44:20,916
important for biodiversity to be

1264
01:44:20,916 --> 01:44:22,833
protected? You know, to me, it's it's

1265
01:44:22,833 --> 01:44:25,166
kind of a it's not just selling it. I

1266
01:44:25,166 --> 01:44:26,333
think a lot of times it's the people

1267
01:44:26,333 --> 01:44:27,833
selling it that don't

1268
01:44:27,833 --> 01:44:28,958
do a very good job on it.

1269
01:44:29,000 --> 01:44:30,750
Because this goes back to the falls back

1270
01:44:30,750 --> 01:44:32,875
to a lot of the NGOs and foundations that

1271
01:44:32,875 --> 01:44:36,125
claim to support biodiversity. And, you

1272
01:44:36,125 --> 01:44:37,041
know, again, you know, you and I have

1273
01:44:37,041 --> 01:44:38,166
been friends for a while. So you kind of

1274
01:44:38,166 --> 01:44:41,625
little my my histories. It's not easy to

1275
01:44:41,625 --> 01:44:45,333
get funding to actually do biodiversity.

1276
01:44:45,708 --> 01:44:47,333
Everybody talks about it. But when they

1277
01:44:47,333 --> 01:44:49,125
come down to it, they're always back on

1278
01:44:49,125 --> 01:44:50,958
to white sharks or tiger sharks or, you

1279
01:44:50,958 --> 01:44:52,958
know, some high profile species, but

1280
01:44:52,958 --> 01:44:55,583
trying to get funding to do like what I

1281
01:44:55,583 --> 01:44:57,791
do or like what Guido is doing. And

1282
01:44:57,791 --> 01:44:59,083
there's some others out there. They're

1283
01:44:59,083 --> 01:45:00,791
doing it. But it's really difficult.

1284
01:45:01,041 --> 01:45:02,916
So we talk about how, like some of the

1285
01:45:02,916 --> 01:45:05,458
local provincial governments or state

1286
01:45:05,458 --> 01:45:07,750
governments, let alone at a higher

1287
01:45:07,750 --> 01:45:09,916
federal level, don't get behind it. It's

1288
01:45:09,916 --> 01:45:11,541
it's the grassroots level.

1289
01:45:11,541 --> 01:45:13,791
It's really not well done.

1290
01:45:13,875 --> 01:45:15,375
And I think you get a lot of lip service.

1291
01:45:15,375 --> 01:45:17,041
I mean, the only couple of groups that

1292
01:45:17,041 --> 01:45:18,000
I'll just mention, they've been

1293
01:45:18,000 --> 01:45:19,583
supporters of mine is the Save our Seas

1294
01:45:19,583 --> 01:45:21,083
Foundation and and more

1295
01:45:21,083 --> 01:45:22,833
recently, the Ocean Census.

1296
01:45:23,041 --> 01:45:25,041
I mean, they've been really they've like

1297
01:45:25,041 --> 01:45:27,041
Ocean Census focuses on describing new

1298
01:45:27,041 --> 01:45:30,291
species, Save our Seas Foundation. I

1299
01:45:30,291 --> 01:45:32,083
think I've described at least a dozen new

1300
01:45:32,083 --> 01:45:33,541
species, thanks to their support.

1301
01:45:34,500 --> 01:45:34,750
And I think it's a great question, too.

1302
01:45:35,000 --> 01:45:37,625
So you have a couple groups, but in the

1303
01:45:37,625 --> 01:45:39,750
bigger picture, you just don't see a lot

1304
01:45:39,750 --> 01:45:42,166
of a lot of get more lip service, I

1305
01:45:42,166 --> 01:45:45,041
guess. And so it's kind of it fails at a

1306
01:45:45,041 --> 01:45:45,958
lot of levels, Andrew,

1307
01:45:45,958 --> 01:45:46,541
I guess what I'm saying.

1308
01:45:49,208 --> 01:45:51,041
Because we don't make a big deal about

1309
01:45:51,041 --> 01:45:53,375
these species and we don't like profile

1310
01:45:53,375 --> 01:45:55,125
these species enough in terms of from a

1311
01:45:55,125 --> 01:45:57,291
communication standpoint, I feel that

1312
01:45:57,291 --> 01:45:59,458
when it does come time for politicians to

1313
01:45:59,458 --> 01:46:02,833
gut an act or to take away policy or to

1314
01:46:02,833 --> 01:46:05,458
destroy that policy, it's an easy sell

1315
01:46:05,458 --> 01:46:06,458
for them to do it because people are

1316
01:46:06,458 --> 01:46:08,166
like, well, like, OK, so these species

1317
01:46:08,166 --> 01:46:09,291
are going extinct anyway.

1318
01:46:09,333 --> 01:46:09,958
So why would I need to why would I need

1319
01:46:09,958 --> 01:46:12,666
to be important? What they don't realize

1320
01:46:12,666 --> 01:46:14,541
is the habitat that gets protected

1321
01:46:14,541 --> 01:46:16,041
because of the protection of these

1322
01:46:16,041 --> 01:46:18,291
species can be extremely important to

1323
01:46:18,291 --> 01:46:20,375
whether it's on land or in water to your

1324
01:46:20,375 --> 01:46:21,458
local environment. You have

1325
01:46:21,458 --> 01:46:23,125
no idea how important it is.

1326
01:46:23,125 --> 01:46:24,333
Yeah, it's like, you know, it's like the

1327
01:46:24,333 --> 01:46:26,375
it's like the song and another brick in

1328
01:46:26,375 --> 01:46:28,083
the wall. It's like you don't know. You

1329
01:46:28,083 --> 01:46:30,750
don't you really don't know. And I hope

1330
01:46:30,750 --> 01:46:32,708
I'm not an agent myself. So you know, you

1331
01:46:32,708 --> 01:46:34,458
know, I'm talking about Pink Floyd.

1332
01:46:36,041 --> 01:46:38,000
So for the for young people don't know.

1333
01:46:38,000 --> 01:46:41,458
Yeah, but but yeah, but but that's really

1334
01:46:41,458 --> 01:46:42,875
what it is. It's like, you know, I always

1335
01:46:42,875 --> 01:46:44,291
also refer to it like, you know, it's

1336
01:46:44,291 --> 01:46:45,416
like you've got all these different

1337
01:46:45,416 --> 01:46:46,125
bricks there and like

1338
01:46:46,125 --> 01:46:47,208
you start taking them away.

1339
01:46:47,750 --> 01:46:50,041
At what point do you wait till the wall

1340
01:46:50,041 --> 01:46:51,791
falls down and say, hey, we got a problem

1341
01:46:51,791 --> 01:46:54,125
here. And, you know, oftentimes when I

1342
01:46:54,125 --> 01:46:56,541
speak publicly, I talk about by the time

1343
01:46:56,541 --> 01:46:58,333
it gets up to a level where you notice

1344
01:46:58,333 --> 01:46:59,416
that there's a problem with like white

1345
01:46:59,416 --> 01:47:00,208
sharks or tiger

1346
01:47:00,208 --> 01:47:01,750
sharks, these top predators.

1347
01:47:02,291 --> 01:47:03,916
You've got a whole bunch of whole suite

1348
01:47:03,916 --> 01:47:05,083
of species that have probably been

1349
01:47:05,083 --> 01:47:08,458
impacted. Yeah. And, you know, and if I

1350
01:47:08,458 --> 01:47:10,583
use it, I haven't realized it yet. Right.

1351
01:47:10,583 --> 01:47:12,750
And I give it just a touch. You know, I

1352
01:47:12,750 --> 01:47:15,375
if a little bit of a plug for the YouTube

1353
01:47:15,375 --> 01:47:17,375
series that Andrew and I are working on

1354
01:47:17,375 --> 01:47:19,833
on my YouTube channel at Lost Shark Guy.

1355
01:47:19,833 --> 01:47:21,625
But this whole thing about searching for

1356
01:47:21,625 --> 01:47:24,333
lost sharks, I kind of outline a lot of

1357
01:47:24,333 --> 01:47:27,666
the reasons in those in the series. Why,

1358
01:47:27,666 --> 01:47:29,291
why it's important to know these know

1359
01:47:29,291 --> 01:47:30,708
about what what you're losing.

1360
01:47:31,958 --> 01:47:35,250
And so, you know, so it's like you it's

1361
01:47:35,250 --> 01:47:37,125
it's impacting a lot of what's going on

1362
01:47:37,125 --> 01:47:38,958
here. I think one of our earlier episodes

1363
01:47:38,958 --> 01:47:41,125
with Chris Fallows talked about that,

1364
01:47:41,125 --> 01:47:43,458
that he thinks more with this effect in

1365
01:47:43,458 --> 01:47:45,041
the white sharks, a lot of the other

1366
01:47:45,041 --> 01:47:47,458
shark lower level trophic level shark

1367
01:47:47,458 --> 01:47:50,416
species have disappeared. Yeah. And so I

1368
01:47:50,416 --> 01:47:53,083
and so I think there's something to that.

1369
01:47:53,083 --> 01:47:54,875
And I think that it comes back to,

1370
01:47:54,875 --> 01:47:56,041
especially if you're a young person

1371
01:47:56,041 --> 01:47:59,333
starting out, work on something like, you

1372
01:47:59,333 --> 01:48:00,958
know, like what Agrita is

1373
01:48:00,958 --> 01:48:01,833
doing or some of the stuff

1374
01:48:01,833 --> 01:48:04,375
I've done and others that they're not

1375
01:48:04,375 --> 01:48:05,666
that they're not the high profile

1376
01:48:05,666 --> 01:48:08,125
charismatic ones, but that's really it's

1377
01:48:08,125 --> 01:48:10,375
going to have a more broader impact, I

1378
01:48:10,375 --> 01:48:11,791
think, from a conservation and from a

1379
01:48:11,791 --> 01:48:12,708
biodiversity standpoint.

1380
01:48:13,375 --> 01:48:15,291
Agreed, agreed. I want you know, this is

1381
01:48:15,291 --> 01:48:17,791
this is the the beauty of doing these

1382
01:48:17,791 --> 01:48:19,000
types of podcasts. We were talking about

1383
01:48:19,000 --> 01:48:21,875
we got a little bit of a tangent because

1384
01:48:21,875 --> 01:48:23,500
of this this question that I had. And we

1385
01:48:23,500 --> 01:48:24,958
get into a conversation. That's what

1386
01:48:24,958 --> 01:48:26,000
these podcasts spark.

1387
01:48:26,375 --> 01:48:27,958
And so it'd be nice to see more

1388
01:48:27,958 --> 01:48:30,000
biodiversity podcasts come out and start

1389
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:31,250
talking about this kind of stuff because

1390
01:48:31,250 --> 01:48:33,708
we need to really put a high profile on

1391
01:48:33,708 --> 01:48:34,541
these species. So I

1392
01:48:34,541 --> 01:48:35,458
think it's really important.

1393
01:48:36,125 --> 01:48:38,208
David, this is this was awesome. You

1394
01:48:38,208 --> 01:48:39,416
know, we want to thank you so much for

1395
01:48:39,416 --> 01:48:41,041
not only, you know, talking about your

1396
01:48:41,041 --> 01:48:42,708
journey, but sparking this wonderful

1397
01:48:42,708 --> 01:48:44,125
conversation that will probably clip and

1398
01:48:44,125 --> 01:48:45,583
put elsewhere. But we're definitely going

1399
01:48:45,583 --> 01:48:47,708
to bring it back to, you know, we'll

1400
01:48:47,708 --> 01:48:48,833
obviously have him back to talk about

1401
01:48:48,833 --> 01:48:50,333
some of his projects on the species to

1402
01:48:50,333 --> 01:48:52,791
highlight those species before people

1403
01:48:52,791 --> 01:48:54,250
start to say, hey, let's just destroy

1404
01:48:54,250 --> 01:48:55,000
this habitat and

1405
01:48:55,000 --> 01:48:55,833
forget about these species.

1406
01:48:56,000 --> 01:48:57,541
That are unknown to a lot of the people.

1407
01:48:57,875 --> 01:48:59,291
But David, I want to thank you so much

1408
01:48:59,291 --> 01:49:00,416
and, you know, thank you so much for

1409
01:49:00,416 --> 01:49:01,541
joining us. Dave, people want to get a

1410
01:49:01,541 --> 01:49:02,250
hold of you. You mentioned

1411
01:49:02,250 --> 01:49:03,583
the last shark guy YouTube.

1412
01:49:03,791 --> 01:49:05,875
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They can search lost

1413
01:49:05,875 --> 01:49:07,958
shark guy. And if they want to go to get

1414
01:49:07,958 --> 01:49:09,083
connected with you, I believe it's

1415
01:49:09,083 --> 01:49:10,583
Instagram, right? Yeah. Instagram.

1416
01:49:10,583 --> 01:49:12,125
Instagram is best ones. Also lost shark

1417
01:49:12,125 --> 01:49:15,583
guy. So Instagram and YouTube and go

1418
01:49:15,583 --> 01:49:17,875
subscribe and follow and keep up on the

1419
01:49:17,875 --> 01:49:19,416
latest shark discoveries.

1420
01:49:20,083 --> 01:49:22,250
Absolutely. And we'll put in Guido's

1421
01:49:22,250 --> 01:49:25,166
social media links if when he gives them

1422
01:49:25,166 --> 01:49:27,666
to us. And so we have those. And I want

1423
01:49:27,666 --> 01:49:29,000
to thank you so much, guys, for listening

1424
01:49:29,000 --> 01:49:31,375
to this episode of the Beyond Jaws

1425
01:49:31,375 --> 01:49:33,125
podcast from David. I want to thank you

1426
01:49:33,125 --> 01:49:34,375
very much. Have a great day. We'll talk

1427
01:49:34,375 --> 01:49:36,000
to you next time and happy conservation.