Certified Routes: How Better Data Lets Your Dollar Protect Whales

0:00 Hey, everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Ocean Leader podcast. Today's episode is a very cool one. We are speaking with the CEO of Whale Seeker, Emily Charry Tissier, who is here to talk about what it's like to be an ecologist and being a CEO at the same time and working with the environment as a business. But also with the core function being really good quality environmental data to protect whales and biodiversity and just the ocean and thinking about the ocean as infrastructure. It is this this conversation was a was ~ an amazing conversation that I had with Emily.

0:44 She is such a great speaker. She's so charismatic. And it's it's no wonder she's a a CEO at Whale Seeker. It's just the way that she she carries herself is just It's just wonderful to be able to speak to her. So I want you to listen to the interview. I'm going to come back with a with a couple of points to reiterate, but it is just wonderful to be able to have this interview with Emily. So here's the interview with Emily Charry Tissier talking about whale seeker and certified routes, what that all is and how it protects biodiversity in whales, but also is a business that makes money. So we're going to talk about that. Enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you after. Hey Emily, welcome to the Ocean Leaders podcast. Are you ready to talk about whales and shipping? I am very excited to talk about whales and chipping and thanks Andrew for having me.

1:27 I'm pretty excited for our conversation today. I I'm I am excited too. This has been a long time coming. I think when we ~ when we here at Pisces and you know, speaking with Natalie, the way we designed Ocean Leaders, like you were on the bill as one of the first podcasts ~ on here and and you are a very busy woman speaking all over the world and traveling all over the world to talk about whales and and the shipping industry and helping both. And and to be honest, I think we're at this is like a really interesting moment, not only in in like And like from a conservation standpoint, but also from like ~ an industry standpoint. We're seeing shipping increase, especially here in Canada. Up north as as ice is melting, we're gonna start to see more shipping go across across the north, across the Arctic. ~ Canada, the government of Canada has been preparing for more shipping, ~ more traffic, which c comes with underwater noise, which comes with potential collisions, ~ and and You know, also we're looking at efficiency for these shipping companies.

2:29 They want to do better for the environment, but they also want to maximize profits as everybody wants to. And everybody's ordering from all over the place. We are a global society right now. And so there there is obviously a a couple of questions that are that are kind of gonna underpin this conversation. ~ and we're gonna we're gonna get into that. You know, we're gonna look at safety for whales, safety for shipping industry, ~ you know, efficiency for shipping industry and how we can manage all this in an ocean that's huge, ~ especially with you know living in along in a country with the longest coastline in the world and three different oceans. So I'm looking forward to this conversation. I want to kind of get to know you a little bit and have the listeners get to know you a little bit before we start we could get into the the the raw details, but it it kind of goes with with Whale Seeker, your company the first question here is You know, you're you're s you're s an ecologist, but a stats person as well, ~ who married a marine biologist at Bitcoin, Yes. Yep. ~ who's who's who's amazing. I got to hang out with him a few weeks ago.

3:29 ~ and you ended up running a whale company. How how did all that happen? Yes, so I I basically just got my undies in a bunch ~ and got really frustrated with the quality and access to high quality data that the the marine mammal sector has access to ~ on a whole. And the whale seekers started because during my maternity leave. Bertant and I had the opportunity to work on a WWF Arctic Species Grant where we looked at aerial images in the Arctic.

4:15 They were planning for a marine protected area. And the question we were trying to answer was: within the planned MPA, are there any areas that warrant extra monitoring or special protection? And Baton's graduate work was on standardizing interpretation of aerial images because that hadn't been done either. How far does a ~ juvenile need to be from an adult for it to be considered ~ together? You know, how do you define a group size? You know, how far away or close together do they need to be? What does habitat use look like?

4:57 Are all of the animals sort of in fighter jet top gun? formation and using the area for traveling, or are they in all different directions, diving and and spending a longer time in a habitat? How are they using it? So there's a lot of information that you can get from photographs. And Balton his love is our marine mammals, and he did not want to do the numbers side of this. And it's really the side that interested me the most was. How can we take these really messy real-world data that are very expensive to collect, difficult to interpret, and really just solve this one puzzle piece because this is a bottleneck, or it was a bottleneck, for so many different sectors.

5:51 So marine transportation, conservation, ~ fishing management. ~ marine protected areas, are they doing their job? Are they not? Indigenous tools that they have for their own sovereignty and managing their own sacred areas in traditional waters. How do we how do we navigate with all of these different stakeholders, all these different whales? We at we need at least some type of standardized and fast way for people to get. The data they need in order to make whatever decisions they're gonna be making. It's really interesting because last time we talked, you you mentioned that the the data quality that you that you just talked about is like the first domino. And it and if that It is the first domino, yes.

6:40 doesn't fall, the rest kind of kind of goes away. Can you kind of explain that analogy a little bit more? You you kind of explain it a little bit more, Yep. but I'd love to hear that. Absolutely. So if we think about ocean data, a lot of times we make a decision on whether or not a shipping lane can go here, whether a port can get built or expanded. Is a mining operation allowed to ~ proceed with their operations? And a lot of that has to do with are they are there marine mammals in the area? If there are marine mammals in the area, is their population healthy?

7:21 Are they stable? Is their population in decline? Is it going up? And how do we make sure that the human activities don't have a negative impact on these populations? And the traditional way of doing that is, you know, either taking a hydrophone. And doing passive acoustic monitoring. And that is very also, it's more of an art than a science, just because we haven't even described all of the different types of noises that whales can make. So we're doing the best we can with those data.

8:02 It's also very data intensive and very interpretation and expert intensive. And we're learning more and more, and that that method is getting better and better. And the same thing with aerial tools. So if we take an image, the traditional way of going through an image is to zoom into a very high-resolution photo and sort of scan it like you would scan a slide under the microscope. And the human observer would put a little dot or a bounding box on an animal, and they would say whatever information they. They would interpret about that observation.

8:42 But that can take a very long time. And what is an expert observer? That's not even defined. And so Mm-hmm. an expert observer could be someone with a PhD in marine mammal science and years of in the field and in the air experience who. knows very well the nuances and understands the context of these animals and these data and what they mean. Or it could be someone with a marine biology degree or they're working on a marine biology degree and it is an expert because they are the most qualified where they are.

9:26 But that Mm-hmm. doesn't mean they have all of that experience in the field to really understand these data. And so Yeah. If someone who is very keen to detect whales is labeling things whale, whale, whale, when it could be a white cap, it could be a piece of ice. Sometimes the the C state is really difficult to, you know, sort through. Well, we could have a big difference in did we see whales this year versus Did we get a different observer the next year? And they might be much more conservative and they might only want to label something as a confirmed whale if they see that beautiful whale silhouette.

10:12 So it really depends on the organizations, who's doing that work. Is it the government? They have pretty rigorous standards. Is it private industry? They have to meet those government standards. But it's it's a lot of faffin' ~ and Nothing really clear and certain. Yeah. And it it's it's it's interesting because it's it's there's so much data to gather and and and a lot of different groups, whether it's a different sector like government, private, ~ nonprofit, or just I mean you think of just even our country from west to east coast to Arctic, there's there's a lot of different groups that may or may not always be in connection.

10:58 And this is not just Canada focus, Great. Yeah. Yep. this is everywhere focused. And ~ You mentioned like it's really important when you have that quality data to standardize that quality data. So what are the barriers to ensuring that standardization standardization can happen in the future going forward so that everybody is on the same page? So standardization is something that in science we strive to, you know, and that standardization, as we know more and we can refine our techniques more, there will be a higher standard for standardization or a different method for standardizing certain data.

11:41 But what we want to do is to be able to compare year one to year two, region A to region B, ~ without having to completely redo the statistics for ~ for interpreting the health or what's going on in a certain marine mammal population. I I would say that the the biggest trouble standing in our way are people, everybody wants to standardize it to their method. I've been there I've been in those rooms with Yep. And I think that's not something, you know, specific to to my sector.

12:22 No. Right. Yeah. But but, you know, because everyone has put such effort into Course. their methods and and some of these organizations have decades and decades of of history and experience ~ doing this. And and truthfully, they are who we We based a lot of our gold standards on, and Mm-hmm. how are they doing it? What are, you know, so this isn't whale seeker that invented the wheel. This is us taking our own in the field first person education and expertise, pairing it, you know, putting it together with what are best practices from the International Whaling Commission.

13:13 What does Department of Fisheries and Oceans do? What about the Canadian Whale Institute? So really looking across the board at what is the best way to do this that also would serve the the largest amount of users, really, because Right. there's a big difference between being compliant for an exclusion zone when we're talking about offshore energy, for example, and saying, listen, if A marine mammal comes within this exclusion zone, it's dangerous for them. We need to shut down operations. Okay, the area is clear, you can spin back up again. Versus how many animals are in ~ a certain area that DFO is trying to understand a certain stock of beluga, Mm-hmm.

14:04 for example, how many ~ young are here, what's their group size, how are they using the habitat? So So not everyone has the same needs in Right. marine mammal detection too. And so our goal is understanding what question is our client trying to answer and making sure that we give them the tools that will get them to that answer as as soon as possible with the highest quality possible within their budget. I I'm glad you mentioned client because like you're now like we're defining, you know, who whale seeker ~ is is is targeting in terms of like who you're serving, right? Which I think is really great.

14:49 And before we get into that, I I just want to say like, you know, you were ecologist, so you're a trained ecologist and and and data scientists essentially, and you know statistics and you know the standardization, so you have this understanding in this breath. We don't often think of ecologists as CEOs, and you went from ecologist to Right. to CEO to like a A business person in a way. It's a it's a big jump. because I, you know, I don't know if you Yeah. had training in in in university for business or or anything like that. ~ and so, like, what did you have when you made that jump or as you continue to make that jump? Because you don't stop to be being an ecologist, No, you don't. Yeah. it's part of your business, which is which is wonderful, by the way. what did you have to figure out the hard way as going from like a business person and a leader of a business from an ecological?

15:37 ~ yes. So the biggest jump. So as an ecologist, I I did have experience managing multiple international research campaigns. So international researchers, lots of different sampling, field logistics, insurance, ~ you know, getting permits from wherever Yeah. we needed to go. So I did have that that management experience, but the real shift was how do I take activity where I'm managing multiple research projects and turn it into a company where this can be bigger than just me?

16:25 And Mm-hmm. and how do we and how do we do this on a larger scale because I have a finite capacity of what I can do Ha ha ha. on my own. ~ Yeah, so that was it was really tricky. I thankfully there was an entrepreneurship school in Quebec called ~ École des Entrepreneurs, and they did a fantastic job of giving everyone who needed it a crash course in running their own business. It was it was pretty different for me because I was running and I was starting up an AI company, but and I was in the same course learning business tools as people who wanted a zero waste cafe or were doing Interesting.

17:13 a yoga studio or tourism podcast. You know, being an entrepreneur takes lots of different forms. And so I learned Mm-hmm. really the basics with them. And then I baptism by fire through Techstars Accelerator. And that was ~ fantastic because it showed showed me how to run an AI company specifically and Gotcha. what to ask all of the IP ~ things that needed to be top of mind always, not fine print. Mm-hmm. ~ and so yeah, it was that was really the the the the big ~ the big learning curve for Yeah.

17:58 me. But then I mean it has been anything but business as usual because We started this company in 2018. So we basically just got this idea off the ground and then we had COVID. And then the world got turned on its head again with the Trump administration and all of AI leaders sort of tossing their ethics and responsibility rules to the curb and the explosion of AI. People used to say What what is AI? Why are you why do you need to use AI to interpret these data?

18:40 To now AI is ubiquitous. And so the the explanation and education that comes with talking about what Whale Seeker does has changed 100%, you know? Yeah. So it has, yeah, and then just ~ ~ everything was offshore energy for a while, and then that got flipped on its head. When I've done lots of other accelerators too, because there's always different points of view and you keep learning, and and it's it's there's always something good to pull from those experiences. Yeah. And just how ~ you know, initially you say, you need to diversify your markets.

19:25 Well, diversifying your markets used to mean well, we need to maybe hit a couple different provinces, or we need to expand to conservation and shipping, for example. But now you need to think about that in the geopolitical environment that's happening right now, and and diversifying your market means you need to be in several different countries at once because of how volatile those. those decisions are and you can have an entire investment in one industry gone and you have no control over it in one in in the snap of the fingers.

20:09 And so Yeah. how do you grow in this new world of ~ extreme speed to development? This ~ trust has never been more on Mm-hmm. People's minds. How do you trust people? What does that mean? There are lots of different kinds of AI. It's not all generative large language models. We never talk about that either. No. And so, and so it's become, it's become so complex. And also the role of ocean data has really changed since we started with this very basic principle. I mean, I called the company Whale Seeker because I didn't really think that we would be detecting seals and penguins and polar bears and walrus and offshore you know Yeah.

21:08 large animals offshore. So it it's it's really grown in what we can do, how we can do it, where these data slot into life. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there's there are a lot of people who are listening to this podcast who are who come from a similar background as as you and I, marine biology, ecology, looking at helping this this rapidly changing world with technology and everything that's going on, ~ but also wanting to protect the ocean at the same time and the species that live in that ocean. And it it can become a little difficult in terms of coming up with that business model that You it's almost like especially like in a whale staker, you're you're kind of carving your own path.

21:52 You know, you are carving your own path in terms of like That's right. it you're you're a firm that has clients, as you mentioned. We'll talk about that in just a second, but it's still like it's it's not your traditional. If you go online and you look at it what's not what an entrepreneur is, they're selling you, you know, you're talking about selling a particular product or merchandise or you know, ~ a a website or or anything like that, right? And but the the world of like economic. Ecological business or or green or blue businesses Yeah. is very different. So for the for the person who's who's listening to this, who comes similar educational background, want to have more of an impact through an own like their own business model.

22:33 And they're just starting, but they're kind of lost in the, as you mentioned, in a rapidly ~ evolving sort of of tech ~ Yeah. AI kind of world and and geopolitical world. Where where would you recommend they start? Like if you had to start if you were back in twenty eighteen but it was now and you were kind Yeah. of starting, what would you recommend? I I would recommend, well, first of all, what aspect of what you do interests you the most? The big shift away from academia is in academia, we learn how to do everything ourselves. We need to know how the whole machine works and we need to be able to do all the bits of the machine.

23:16 The big change from academia to starting a company is you don't have to be the expert in everything anymore. You need to know where the bus is going. You need to keep the wheels on the bus. You need to keep everyone moving in the same direction, but you don't need you don't need to micromanage everything. And so find people who are really excited about the work that you know needs to get done, but is not what excites you. So I would say sort of get your group of of people who are interested and want to do something and have different skills than you do.

24:00 And then look at some of the some of the the funding calls to really s get an idea. What are funders going to fund? Because if you're starting a company. It can't just be curiosity-based. You need to find a way to serve some type of economical need. And so, you know, what are what is Horizon Europe's big projects putting out there? What, what, you know, big ideas does ECCC have now with the new Carney administration wanting to take a bit more seriously.

24:42 ecosystem services and natural capital. you know, so so is it mapping the seafloor? Who's you know, what are the what are the areas that are sort of frontier that Mm. the government isn't really investing in because it's niche? How can you fill that space? I would that's that's the advice that I would give. I like that. I like that. Yeah. I like that a lot. Now, did was Whale Seeker born out of the idea, you know, obviously ~ Betrin being a a a marine mammal biologist, ~ basically looking at the idea of ships keep hitting whales. D is that is that the overall question of like what you were trying to solve when the original idea came through?

25:29 It was part of it, but Yeah. we knew that an absence of high quality Data. data ~ was a problem for lots of different sectors. And we knew if we could solve this one problem that it would serve many sectors. And the really the the so we started Whale Seeker in 2018. We've worked with conservation, indigenous. ~ international NGOs, ~ academia, government, so you know, small cities, smaller ports, larger ports. We've worked with so many different stakeholders, IMO, IHO, different UN ~ organizations.

26:20 And what we've seen is that everyone has the same place that they want to go to on the horizon, more or less, this is the future that we are trying to get to. And everyone has their own little niche way of doing it. Is it underwater radiated noise? Is it ship strikes? Is it ropeless fishing gear? Is it, you know, mapping the seafloor? Is it offshore energy? Is it, and so everyone is sort of tackling it in their own way that is important. And moving the dial a little bit. And the the big idea that I had was: how do we create scaffolding for all of these initiatives to live within? And everyone can move together in a much more unified and powerful way. So The efforts, a lot of the efforts, not all the efforts, but a lot of the efforts that are going into reducing underwater radiated noise for marine biodiversity, you know, overlaps with ship strike questions, Mm-hmm.

27:32 and vice versa. And better data on a finer spatial and temporal scale will also help managers manage fisheries. On a finer scale so that there will be greater conservation to the North Atlantic right whale, for example, but hopefully have a less negative impact on a fishery closure. So, how do we how do we micromanage the ocean a bit more? And there are so I mean, we're talking about Whale Seeker and my work, but but really I'm inspired by how many different NGOs, government groups, international groups, ~ other companies are working on adjacent solutions.

28:23 And I mean, I've been around the conference scene, I've been around ocean ~ innovation long enough now to know we are standing on really powerful solutions. We we're not at a ~ I wish we had a solution for the ocean. It's that's not the question that we're answering. The disconnect is that the technology people, the innovation people are saying, We have, we've got the solutions. Now we need to scale. Now we need to implement them. Now we need to make sure that procurement allows us to scale these on a much greater on a much greater scale. So how Huge sale, yeah.

29:10 do we get these solutions in the system? Canada in particular has a very strong ocean innovation community. And the government of Canada needs to view the ocean as infrastructure. How does the government of Canada get a return on its investment that it's had, it's it's invested in the RD? ~ through the IRAP, through Shred. It's it's the federal government has invested a lot in these entrepreneurs. And now the government, when sovereignty and technology has never been more important, well, Canada's in a great spot because they've been doing this investment at home for a long time. But we're missing the scaling part.

29:57 How do we uptake it? How do we adopt it? Mm-hmm. How do we get it scaled beyond our waters? Right. So it it's it's you know, I mean, every single talk I've heard at conferences talks about how do we break down these silos. And I think one of the main ~ take-home points that came out of the United Nations Oceans Conference ~ a year and a half ago and the Blue Economy and Finance Forum that's happening in Monaco is blended finance. So Mm-hmm. Traditional VC investment isn't it doesn't really work for ocean organizations.

30:38 So what will how do how do they de-risk ~ in investing in these solutions to really scale them at a country level? And it is finance coming at the table. It's the World Bank saying, Well, we'll partner with this this ~ this private fund and we'll also work with this. ~ ~ NGO, you know, that so there needs to be lots of different ways of of of leveraging financial mechanisms and insurance Mm-hmm. and and those financial and political levers are being developed right now.

31:24 There are lots of finance Yeah. people and policy people that are working on this right now and it's not easy. No one Yeah, so I so I don't want to give the the illusion that we should already be there. No, they're they're working on it and Yeah. this is the work that will really move the dial forward in terms of ocean data, ocean conservation, really for everybody. Yeah. And I think it's interesting because like right now the the sort of the VC sort of model is they see a a company, they they really like the company, they invest in that particular company, and that that company kind of leads the the way. So say like an AI tech company, they create their models or whatever they have a certain ~ client.

32:09 But when you're looking at an ocean type business, there are so many other people and and groups and i mean you you just even look at the whales in general they span Yeah. ocean basins in at times right like their migration routes it's it's not just political Yes. borders it's ocean basins so it's it's Absolutely. so cross like it's so international that you it's not just one company like whale seeker that can do the work they could Exactly. man you could manage the work you can bring people together but it's like like you said there's governments there's like the World Bank there's like a a lot of other you know, financial organizations that work on that type of scale.

32:49 And then you have NGOs who can who can help in the understanding. You have indigenous communities. You have so it's it's not just like we can give money to whale seeker and whale seeker can go do their thing. It is like we need to bring together as a community, which is just like a marine protected area when you bring rights holders and stakeholders together is not easy. That's right. Yeah. That's right. And it takes a while to to do this is the same way. It's conservation. And as a business, Right. they need the the business needs to get into the world of conservation in the way that conservation works, essentially. Yeah. And and in and in running Whale Seeker, we have clients. So we do we do a service for all these different organizations that we already talked about. Yeah. But we also have RD ~ Yeah.

33:33 grants that we're applying for. And I'll say, Andrew, that we have never led one alone. So Right. Whale Seeker will lead it, but it's always with a consortium of these different organizations that are organized legally in different ways because they've got different levers than we do. And Have different strengths and some can act faster, some have more clout, some are more agile, some are, you know. And so it's it's picking those, like I said earlier, what what individuals sort of fill your weak spots or parts that you don't want to do? It's the same thing building your network as an organization.

34:14 What are those partnering organizations that you can? bring along into a larger group that will have a greater impact than if everyone just went at it alone. I I love that. And I think, you know, Yeah. like you said, the the the basics around here is great call quality data that's Yes. Yep. Yep. standardized across and you can create a lot of other things around that. MPAs, looking at ~ collisions, looking at just just getting the b the basic understanding of where these marine mammals are and and there's all sorts of things that that we could talk about, ~ which I think is is really cool. Cause I think when people think of shipping and whales, we think of collisions.

34:57 Right. Yep. Yep. And and that's that but there's so many other things that can with the data that can be done, it just it it amplifies everything, which brings in a lot of other people. One one product that you have presented to the world, which is great, are is certified certified routes. Now imagine like you and I are at it at a dinner table and I ask you like, Hey, what are you up to? Like, what is certified roots about? Like, can you just kind of give us the the basics of what that would what it is? Yeah, so about five years ago, I was at Monaco Ocean Week ~ working ~ at a at a working group that was talking about the the triple threat of shipping on climate. And the the triple threat is biodiversity, pollution, which includes noise pollution, and carbon. And Two things really were formative during this day-long workshop with with ~ amazing scientists and and politicians and economists that that are very important and smart and renowned.

36:11 The first thing is ~ the the IHO was just starting to propose the S100 program, which is digital maps. Mm-hmm. So everyone would have access to it. It would be a ubiquitous format, and there would be different layers of this S100. And the IHO was thinking really forward how can we use this to decarbonize shipping, which shipping has put as a top priority. And they said, look, with this new tool, we can reroute vessels into ocean currents, and we're going to be using ocean currents so that we don't burn as much fuel.

36:55 It's better ESG reporting, and Bob's your uncle. ~ you know, here we go, this is the future, everything's Mm-hmm. great. But there was no biodiversity or pollution metric in there. And as finding Nemo reminded everybody, ocean currents are biodiversity's superhighway. Yeah. And by routing vessels into ocean currents, you're actually having. Okay, the the the desired effect on carbon, but a very negative effect on biodiversity for both noise pollution and biodiversity itself. Mm-hmm. But you're not measuring those two things.

37:37 And at that point, we went to the IHO and they said, ~ we just do the hydrography, that's not us, you know, we don't do living things, Mm. and then the IMO said we just do like legal. laws, you know, where are the shipping routes and and where can you go and where can you not go and where are there underwater cables and where's a port you can go to. They said we don't do biodiversity either. So kind of, you know, ~ slipping between the yeah, Silos already. Yeah. slipping between the cracks of this very powerful solution. Well the S100 is now mature enough that they are they do have lots of different applications and what are different types of data.

38:22 Mm. that they can that they can put into this so that everyone has access to it and it's not ~ a pay-to-play kind of thing. Mm-hmm. And the other thing from that workshop that really stood out to me is we were organized in ~ specialty groups. So for part of the day we everyone had to answer these questions about technology and and ~ Different types of clean energy, and where are we at? What solutions are available to scale now? What's gonna be scalable in five years, 10 years, what's 20 years off, you know? And there were politicians, economists, scientists, and the innovators.

39:10 And the only group that said, you know, by and large, a lot of this is ready to go today. Some of this we need five years out. We need you know, some other things are 20 years Yeah. out, honestly, but but the and and the solutions that all of the other groups they said, we need to subsidize ~ academia more. We just need more research. We need we just need more consortiums and more research. We will always need more research, but we need to scale. The solutions that exist now. And that lack of understanding of what is actually at their fingertips that industry can be using, that that governments could be leveraging, that they were just not aware that they were as tested and as robust and as ready as they really are.

40:06 So I think that's on the technology. ~ the the innovators by and large. To do a better job communicating that because Mm-hmm. I think I think here I can speak for for all innovators and say we are pilot project out. We have all done Ha ha ha. ~ pilot projects, we've succeeded with our pilot projects, and the only other option for us to scale then further is well, let's do another pilot project. Well, Right. well then then what? You know, and Mm. so how do we do a better job communicating? And it's really a hard ask on the innovators because they are engineers, they are scientists, they are mathematicians, they are, you know, stereotypically known for not being able to communicate their work, and they shouldn't have to.

41:04 So there needs Right. to be a bigger emphasis on bridging that gap of what is ready, how do you know it's ready? And speak to the economists and speak to the policymakers and speak to the practitioners ~ to to to show that it's not all doom and gloom, we really are sitting on amazing possibilities. And if we if we ran the experiment of scaling these out, you know, if we modeled out global adoption of some of these solutions that we have, what would the future look like then? What's Mm-hmm. what solution what what would ocean biodiversity look like?

41:47 What would our climate look like? What would GHG look like? What would these industries look like? And I think we don't do enough of modeling that we model the risk. We talk about war and all the fear and what's going poorly and But I think we need to do a much better job of communicating the potential of what could go well and what it would take for this to go well and what does this need to scale. Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting. ~ 'cause you're right. All you hear is like, yeah, there's a pilot project for this, there's a pilot project for that. Yeah. And and I think that's that's the thing is like how do we implement it at scale? How do we get this? And I I Yeah.

42:28 kind of yeah, I look back at at Whale Seeker, right? And you you mentioned clients and and Mm-hmm. Yep. and you know, this is where, you know, you have a an industry in the shipping industry who, as you mentioned, want to decarbonize. They want to do what's better what's best for the environment because it's it's the ocean that allows them to make the money that they that they make. Putting the ships on the ocean and sailing them across the world. Yeah. make like help them make. And I I do believe like it's a it's a it's these are business opportunities that people have. So for for your clients, can you talk a little bit about that and and especially for certified roots, what would this how would this benefit those those clients using certified routes and and moving forward? And also would that help implement it at that international scale that they that is required?

43:19 Yeah, thanks for asking that. So f with certified routes, the we knew that and because shipping companies and cargo owners said ~ yeah, we love the idea, we're not gonna pay for it. Yeah. So ~ you know, it either needs to be the carrot or the stick, and we know that the stick doesn't work very well. So, how can we change the story so that making the right economic choice happens to be the same decision as making the right environmental choice?

44:00 Mm. How are they not opposite ends of opposite sides of the coin? You know? So So this is the work that we started to see, okay, you know, and to be honest, Andrew, shipping is the very last ~ industry that we wanted to get into because it is so convoluted. There are so Mm. many stakeholders and and it seems like a case of hot potato where they're saying, yeah, this is really important, but I'm just the the ship captain. I don't own the vessel. Right. Right. And this person is going, I only I just put my stuff on here. I don't actually I don't make the decisions on what routes they take.

44:43 And these guys, the captains going, Well, this guy tells me which route to take. So no one's responsible. You know? It's like this ever ever loop, They're all yeah, that's just it. ever never ending loop. So, so it so really it took a long time to understand the actors and what are their what are their points of view and who's a bit more conservative and who's a bit more interested in in doing something new and what are those what are those different financial levers and the only reason that we can really talk about certified routes or propose certified routes today is because there are all of these other financial mechanisms that are being created right now. So perhaps There are blue bonds. There are perhaps preferential ~ borrowing rates from banks if you follow certified routes because you are taking a responsible way around the ocean, considering your environment, very similar to how automate ~ automotive ~ insurance works. You know, if you're a responsible driver, Right. Yep.

45:57 if you slow down in the school zones. You don't get a ticket, you get a better rate. So that's one financial uptick. Other types of insurance, parametric insurance is getting is is growing. we're starting to ensure coral reefs and mangroves. We're talking about putting nature on the balance sheet. So doing debt for nature Interesting. swaps. So if a country is going to Exchange some of their national debt and invest it in some blue assets, whether it's coral or seagrass or mangroves or whatever.

46:41 That that depends on a healthy ocean ecosystem. Course. Yeah. It's not just that one thing, you know, seagras all your seagrass is gonna die if all the other little animals and and plants around it are not doing well either. So then it becomes a national priority to protect your ocean biodiversity because it's showing up on your national balance sheet. Right. So there are a lot of, you know, and then and then down to to individuals. So what do individual Canadians maybe don't realize that most of their goods have been shipped in.

47:22 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And I lived in Saskatchewan for many years when I was doing my master's and and you know the ocean is pretty far away from buyers' Yeah. minds at the grocery store in Saskatoon. Right. But similar to the leaping bunny, I don't think about animal testing on shampoo or makeup or lotions or anything, but when I see that leaping bunny sir, you know, a little certificate. Yeah. Willing to pay 10 cents, 25 cents more for that Yeah. one product because it aligns with my values and that's what I want to do. So what I'd like is to really bring it to the attention of everyone and say, look, this product was shipped as responsibly as possible for marine biodiversity. And now, Andrew, everyone is looking for the silver bullet.

48:14 So what is the solution for ocean conservation? This is not it. This is another tool that we need Right. Yep. to scale out because for, you know, I'm talking about going around ~ you know, marine ~ marine animal populations. Yeah. ~ I'm talking about sensitive ~ habitat. And so it's not every shipping scenario that has the luxury of slowing down or going around a sensitive area.

48:54 There are some products that you lose a lot of money if because you know all of your produce is gonna go bad. And so this is this is just for the goods that are not on Yeah. Like right. a second by second clock. Yeah. Like not perishable in that kind of And And marine respect, yeah. the and marine logistics is extremely complex, Yeah. extremely complex, and it's a lot of terrestrial logistics as well. And so the more we can plan out these things and say, okay, well, we're not, we know we can we can go around bad weather systems because we know that they're coming, and that's a normal that's normal data for ship routing to take into consideration.

49:39 Let's take into consideration too a dynamic. ~ whale data layer Mm-hmm. as well and say, well here there's a seamount in the middle of the ocean. Let's just go around it, you know, and these areas because we know that there's going to be a lot of biodiversity here. I mean, we're in Canada, we talk a lot about on both coasts, about the southern resident killer whale population. Mm-hmm. We talk about the North Atlantic Right Whale, the Beluga's and the St. Lawrence, they're all in high traffic areas. So and and as you said, shipping is increasing.

50:21 So in so my dream scenario would be, do you remember it was maybe ~ it was maybe Microsoft or Apple, I forget who did that commercial a few years ago with God at the ~ board ~ board of directors table and Yeah. Yes. and god was saying well what about ~ you know nature and like well we're nature positive well what about carbon well we're carbon neutral well what you know and then Yeah. god gets up from the table and goes well looks like you're doing a great job keep at Yeah. it but in that commercial they said well in order to cut down on our carbon we're we're gonna be shipping You know, 95% of our goods, we're not going to be flying them anymore.

51:10 And so what I would love is for those organizations that have decided to make that great ecological choice to get in front of this next narrative and say, and because we are increasing shipping traffic, we will only be shipping our, you know, non perishable goods on Yeah. certified routes. And then that is a a good is good leader to be in these days. Everyone wants good news. What can he what can just your average citizen do to make a little bit of a difference in all the stuff that's going on these days?

51:53 And I feel A hundred percent. like there's that there's that disconnect too of like, well, global shipping, what can I do? ~ I don't know, what are your favorite brands? Write them and say, hey. Yeah. Could you could you ship in a more ecologically responsible way? And so many of these large companies already are doing really great stuff. So they are looking at biofuel, they are using wind, they're retrofitting their vessels, and that costs a lot of money. Mm-hmm. Going around, you know, marine-sensitive areas, that's something that we can do already. And it doesn't need Yeah. to retrofit anything. And so Right.

52:34 This is something that you can ask for also. I I like that too. And I feel like, you know, to know the companies and stuff, we can do s very similar things like we do for s for the sustainable seafood industry, like the seafood watch Yeah. apps and the the oceanwise apps and the marine stewardship council where you can have either a certification or just information on which brands are the ones Yeah. that you should that are that are doing what they need to do to decrease their their carbon output or f you know and and And go more towards shipping like through the ocean rather than in the air. And I think that that would be a a big benefit to them in the future to just be like, yeah, like this is what we do and we're very and they could be proud of it. And it's just like because I think a lot of consumers, they see what they buy, you're right, and they they just want they want the quality.

53:25 Like if I buy a shirt and it's traveled Yeah. Yep. from somewhere, I want to make sure that this shirt lasts me at least five to six years. I don't wanna I don't want this to But also the benefit is I would do a little bit more just for my values, just to be like, this one is going instead of going by air, it's going by by sea. That's a lot better. They've got certified routes on their, you know, the docket as well. That means they're they're making sure that the marine biodiversity and and whales and all this and upwellings where they like gathers a bunch of of animals in those areas are going are gonna be better. And like let's be honest, climate change, it's shifting. And we are Yes. seeing and we saw the North Atlantic right whales in 2017 shift into the Gulf of St. Lawrence. And now they're there at certain times of the year.

54:05 And there have to be changes that are that are made ~ for shipping and and other things. And and I think that's Yeah. important to know. And I think it kind of it it brings that directness and responsibility back to the or the choice back to the consumer. So it doesn't matter if you're in Saskatchewan or if you're in like Ohio, you can say, Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna go with this brand. And just like I'm gonna go with this sustainable seafood so that I know that I'm doing the right thing. And I have that choice. Instead of just it just coming to me and it's just blind. I think that's that's Yeah. that's really important. And I think I mean I'm feeling like this and the people that I'm speaking with are feeling pretty powerless in Mm-hmm. in what's going on. You know, and they're just seeing ~ rights and environmental laws get eroded away.

54:53 And and what can we do? What small thing on the daily can we do that would Yeah. make a difference and you know, and this is something manageable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think that's I think it's it's it's it's empowering people to like make that choice to see what choices the brands are making so that they can make the the choice Yeah. that they want to make. And I think that's that's that's really important. Yeah, and ~ really, Andrew, you know, 40 some years ago the the idle with the IWC, you know, social outrage led to a global ban on commercial whaling. And I think we're at a similar tipping point now where social outrage is needed because there's no reason for commercial activity to be killing whales either.

55:43 Mm-hmm. You know, we have the tools to go around to slow down. And Mm-hmm. once again, I'm not offering a utopic ~ Right. you know, ticket to the spaceship. I'm saying Yeah. this is one more thing that we can do, but it will have a measurable decrease in risk. Yeah. So ship strike risk and underwater radiated noise in the areas that's most sensitive to ocean biodiversity. And then you have a quantitative metric that you can then track that goes outside exclusive economic zones across an entire shipping route. And that's also something that we don't have yet.

56:24 Yeah. And so it is a way to really connect all of the pieces of the ocean together and say everyone that operates in the ocean knows that there are no boundaries, even though there are exist those lines on a map. But How can we turn this into something that's a win for everyone? Absolutely. And it all starts with data. It all starts with quality data. And it all starts with data. None of this can happen without good data. Right. You can't, you know, the one of the big crappy things that happened with carbon credits in the terrestrial environment was so many frauds. So a lot of people did tree planting, but then there was no due diligence to make sure that the trees were still there, that the environment is still unaffected, that it's still capturing the carbon like it should be doing.

57:15 And When we're talking about putting nature on the balance sheet, you need that foundation of good data that is rigorous, that is transparent, and that will be there year after year in a standardized way so that you can compare apples to apples and year one to year seven. And Yeah. all of all of the conservation metrics, the these blended financial models. ~ putting nature on the balance sheet of countries, it won't happen unless you have quality verified blue data.

57:55 In in the future, say 10 years down the road, do you think we could see ~ a situation where shipping companies, the brands who use those shipping companies and everything associated with the the shipping of products could be investing money and funds to getting that good quality data so that the certified routes get even better? Absolutely, absolutely. I think, I think going from non-existent to existent is the biggest hurdle. And then after that, it will just be growing the group, refining how we use it, what works best for the future of shipping as well.

58:39 ~ and and it will just be making things better. I think the hardest Yeah. thing is to get something birthed into the world to start with. Yeah. You know, we we talk about, you know, looking at twenty thirty, because, you know, supposed that we're in the ocean decade. I want Yeah. to go a little bit beyond that. Let's go twenty thirty-five. Say, you know, like everything, everything that we've talked about today is in place and is working. Paint me this picture. What do what does the ocean look like now? With s with certified routes, great quality data, you know, or better data that that's actually working. yeah. ~ What does that look like? I'm I'm excited at this that this picture. So this looks like the ocean being valued as infrastructure and that it really all of a sudden gets to be a lot more important for humanity.

59:29 And it's not just if we can't see it, ~ it's sort of not not top of mind, and that we start to really feel the benefits of it. So as with scaling out ~ certified routes globally, at this point it's ubiquitous. Yeah. ~ we have been able to contribute to, you know, the the protection of new species, new areas that we didn't even know were endangered or was a sensitive area. We've been able to dynamically follow where these ~ endangered species are going so that we can also avoid them in quasi-real time.

1:00:18 We ~ all countries have blue asset categories on their global on their their national budgets and these assets, the whole exclusive economic zone of Canada should be insured for disaster. And I mean, we should treat our blue assets just like we treat our green assets. And Yeah. we need to to leverage them, we need to invest in them, we need to grow them. And with once that that cycle starts, I think it'll it'll be easy.

1:00:59 For people to see, this is actually a much better financial decision for my company. It's not as hard as I thought it was going to be. There's much happier consumers. Consumers feel Mm-hmm. like they have more agency and and everyone breathes a little better because the ocean is healthier and My daughter and everyone's kids get to see whales in the wild when they're adults. And so that's that's really Yeah. ~ the the thing that I keep top of mind all the time is is is my daughter going to be able to enjoy an ocean full of wonder?

1:01:39 ~ Yeah. and I will say that there's a lot of knee-jerk reactions to putting a price on nature. ~ And I understand it, but you know, I'm paid for the services that I render through Whale Seeker. I'm paid Mm-hmm. to be CEO. I'm not paid to be a mom. I'm not paid to be a friend, a daughter, a Right. colleague, you know, to to other people outside Whale Seeker. So my worth is much greater than what my salary is, Yeah. but if but if So I think we need to understand better paying for the the services that are Yeah.

1:02:27 being rendered that we can quantify is one thing and realize that culturally and emotionally there is not a price tag that we can put on ocean conservation and everything that that means. Yeah. But we need to get more comfortable with this idea because if if something's not on a balance sheet, it's invisible. Agreed. And it's been invisible for a long time. Yep. Exactly. Yep. Like let's be honest, right? Like we haven't thought of I like the idea of thinking the ocean is infrastructure. You know, like l thinking about that same same Yes. Yes. part. It doesn't look like the what what we traditionally think of roads and buildings and things. But if you look at the building Yeah. blocks of the habitats that protect our our coastlines, the biodiversity that keeps everything intact of what we what we know, and you look at the Yeah.

1:03:13 cost that we have to pay at for the price of losing those. you know, it it it becomes it it becomes really important. And I and just the whole certified routes thing I think is is amazing. And I and and you know in twenty thirty-five I picture, you know, me going to say like something like a place like ~ a Costco and I buy something and I see there's a little logo on that corner that says certified routes, right? When you hear that What do you want a person like myself or anybody else shopping and they see that logo? What do you want them to feel? Like how do you want them to feel? I want them to feel like they are part of the solution.

1:03:55 Mm. I want them to feel like they're making a difference and they have agency and really whether it's going to the supermarket or the drugstore, ~ you vote with your dollar. What do you Mm-hmm. spend your money on? Where are you going on vacation? How are you getting there? What are you eating? What clothes are you buying? All of those millions of little decisions that we're making. You know, I I want you to feel good about those decisions. Yeah. Yeah. And finally, like, you know, as as someone who's a scientist, you know, your ~ Beth, your husband, is a scientist. You guys are working in the the the the the business of science to to you know with with data and looking at routes and and you know GPS systems and everything like that.

1:04:44 They're for the scientists who are listening to this, as we we c discussed a little earlier, and they're sitting on this great idea that could help not only the ocean or or the wild wildlife or nature in general. But they're just a little scared to to go turn it into a business. What would you say to them at this point with everything that you've experienced and continue to experience? I will say, well, just go for it. You know, just give it a whirl. I thought to myself, I'm really not the person to start this. There are much smarter people than me. There are people who are better positioned than me to take on this problem.

1:05:28 But I told myself, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna do it until somebody does it better than. Mm. then I do it. And then I'll happily hand over the reins to someone else, but no one else is doing it right now. Right. So I'm gonna keep at it. And and I would say if you don't want, if you and listen, I don't want to gloss over the very real risk that you're taking financially if you're an entrepreneur. Because it's not just ~ a school classroom exercise. You you are leveraging Your house. You are deciding to move your family for something.

1:06:09 You are making parenting decisions with this Mm-hmm. in mind. And it is not easy. It the the the highs are higher higher, but the lows are lower. And the buck stops with you. If you do not have that risk profile, then join a startup that is doing something. where you can put your skills to use. You don't have to be the one to start the company, run the company, because it it it is, it's very risky. And so if that is not something financially a risk that your family can take, that makes a whole heck of a lot of sense.

1:06:55 And Hundred percent. and I would say find like-minded people, see who's hiring There's more and more remote work opportunities. ~ and like I said, within Canada, even ~ we have an amazing, amazing ocean ~ innovation community. There's lots of opportunities in the US globally. So ~ yeah, I would say if you don't want to be at the helm taking all those risks yourself, Yeah. you don't need to be in order. Yeah. For your skills to be put to good use. I love this. Thank you so much, Emily, for for being on the podcast.

1:07:36 It is ~ it's been such a a fun opportunity to have these chats. I always love I always love chatting with you. I'd love to have you back on to talk more about ocean business Thanks, Andrew. Yeah. and and all that wonderful stuff. But it's been it's been so much fun. I want to just thank you so much. Thanks so much. ~ it's been a pleasure. And anytime you want me back, I'm here. Thank you so much, Emily, for joining us on the Ocean Leaders Podcast. It was great to have you on and be able to dive into what is behind whale seeker and certified routes. Such an important conversation to have from a business standpoint, from an ocean leader standpoint, of what it's like to be a CEO and look at the ocean in a different way. A lot of times, I think as conservationists, as ocean people, scientists, business people, we look at the ocean.

1:08:20 As you know, something we want to protect coral reefs, we want to protect seagrasses, we want to protect whales, polar bears, sea lions, walruses, all these different types of animals. But how can you make that into a ~ a profitable business? how can we get like a venture capitalist to say, hey, invest in this idea because it's going to help the ocean? But it also has many other benefits. And Whale Seeker provides that with certified routes and other things that they do. And I think that's that's really important when we start to look at How the financing and how the investment into the ocean is going to be much, much different than our what we traditionally think investing will look like. And it's not going to be just one VC, it's not going to be just one nonprofit organization.

1:09:01 It's not going to be one for-profit organization or government. It's going to be a lot of different people, a lot of different organizations and companies to coming together to lead these types of projects because they are big and they're international in the in scope. Because we can't control where whales go. We know they move not only past political boundaries, but past ocean basins in in a lot of places. And things are changing as I talk about my how to protect the ocean podcast. Things are changing in the ocean all the time. You know, it wasn't until 2017 that the North Atlantic right whales, the critically endangered North Atlantic right whales, were going into the Gulf of St. Lawrence. And and that changed everything for shipping in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

1:09:41 For crab and and lobster fishing in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. That changed how that was managed while those whales were there. Things are changing the ocean is very dynamic. The things that we are imposing as humans on the ocean are very dynamic. So that means the businesses and the companies that are gonna be working in there are gonna be very dynamic. And the financing is gonna be very dynamic. And we, you know, Emily just put that out, laid that out nicely in this this interview. And I think it's just It's it's nice to have that conversation of looking forward of how this could relate to people. You know, going from I'm gonna buy goods that are being shipped through these certified routes and seeing that logo in the future that are gonna be on our our boxes, our packages, everything like that, and saying, Hey, yeah, I'm supporting this brand because they're using certified routes in their shipping and how they get it here and not flying it across the world where there's a bigger carbon output.

1:10:32 So great. Great job by Emily. Love Whale Seeker. We'll be keeping in touch with her for sure. And you can find more information in the show notes for ~ Whale Seeker and their certified routes. And ~ you know, if you want more of this kind of stuff or you know someone that we should speak to, please let us know. You can hit that follow button first of all on your favorite podcast app. Leave us a comment if you're on Spotify, ~ but you can also contact us. There's there's a bunch of links in the show notes. And first of all, I want to thank Emily for joining us on this episode, but I want to thank you guys for listening because it's so important to have these discussions with among ocean leaders and with ocean leaders so that we can everybody can move forward and help the ocean in the future. So thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of Ocean Leader Podcast.

1:11:16 I'm your host, Angela. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.