Complexity Leadership: The Brain Science Behind Leading Ocean Teams with Penny Paucha

0:00 If you're listening to this episode or this podcast for that matter, you want to be or you are an ocean leader. That's what we're here to do. We're here to talk about a lot of things that ocean leaders go through. And so today on the episode, we have uh a special guest, Penny Paudra uh, who is a a leadership coach. And she is here to talk about what it's like to be a leader and what qualities a leader should have. And what they should demonstrate, some of the qualities, of course, because there's a lot, uh, that would really excel as a leader. She talks a lot about complexity leadership. We get into it, and what uh one tangible thing that you can take away and build yourself to be a a leader in that space.

0:44 We're gonna talk about that on today's episode of the Ocean Leader Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. I am the Ocean Communications Manager for Pisces Oceans, which is which run this podcast. And again, we are here to help ocean leaders develop so that they can have a better impact on the ocean. And today's guest is uh Penny uh Paudra She is the founder and principal of Instincts at Work, a Toronto leadership development firm. She holds a master's degree and is a certified neuroleadership coach through the Neuroleadership Institute and is a faculty member at the Ontario College of Family Physicians and the Dorothy Wiley Health Leaders Institute.

1:25 Today we are diving into the neuroscience behind ocean leadership and leadership in general. And it's wonderful to be able to have somebody like Penny on the podcast. It's a it's the start of a mini-series that we are putting on with Penny coming in to talk all things leadership, where we can really dive into what makes a good leader, how someone can lead a team, a business, whatever that might be. We are in a space here in the oceans where people have to be innovative. They're going be using unique attributes, whether they're engineers, whether they're scientists, whether They're marketers, whether they're business leaders, but they need to learn a little bit more about leadership or learn, you know, have a place where they can discuss or listen to leadership.

2:09 And that's what this podcast wants to be to help you have a better impact on the ocean by developing your leadership abilities. and you can also, you know, at the end of this episode, we're gonna talk about how you can follow more leadership uh qualities and and be able to develop those qualities through pennies services. So Let's get into the episode and the interview with Penny Paudra talking about complexity leadership. Enjoy and I'll talk to you after. Hey Penny, welcome to the Ocean Leader Podcast. Are you ready to talk about the complexity of being a leader? Yes, I'd love to share that with your audience, Andrew. All right. I am looking forward to this. This is a the a start of a series of on this podcast about leadership.

2:52 And obviously, you know, we can't really get to everything in in one episode. So we're gonna do this short series where Penny, you've you've agreed to come on a few times and and you're you're a a a coach and a leadership coach. And so you're gonna share your expertise with our community. We really appreciate you doing this. It's gonna be a lot of fun. And today we're gonna get into the complexities of being a leader, especially in this case, an ocean leader. And and I can't wait to to get into all of that. But before we do, Penny, why don't you just let us know who you are and what you do? Okay, great. Thanks, Andrew. uh Pleased to be here with your audience. uh My background is that I started working as a member of a team at a healthcare organization. And I at that time I trained in psychotherapy actually. So I used to work with uh an integrated team of professionals, physicians, nurses, nutritionists, uh and I was part of a counseling team.

3:53 And so what I really I loved the work, but I always found it kind of curious. I became quite interested in how the team dynamics worked. So I was one of those that I was like, I'm really interested and curious about the teams and how we bring teams together. And from there, I ended up uh doing some work with team organizational development. So I was trying to work out or understand better what makes teams perform well. And what makes an organization healthy? And so these were all interesting questions for me. And from there I went and did some training in uh neuroscience-based coaching. So I had a background in neuroscience, but at at the time, years ago, when I studied it, there wasn't really such such a thing as applied neuroscience.

4:43 There was only like operating on rat brains. So that wasn't something that was uh really my passion. uh So I was really more interested in teams and how you bring people together and what are some of the brain bases of our behavior that might accelerate or limit performance. And so from there and from that training, I worked for a little bit in the financial services industry. uh So that really helped give me a clear sense because in a way, you know, healthcare is one of the most complex fields to work in. Um, and anything that's really more integrated with teams that deals with that layer of complexity, there's a lot of factors that you have to that come into, I think, determining performance.

5:32 And there's a lot of measures around what actually, how do we know? How do we know that we're making a difference or what those measures of performance are? In financial services, it's pretty stripped down. It's like, are we making money or are we losing money? You know, that like there's there's very uh of course client service is important to that, but you can simplify the variables a lot more. So it gave me a window into how teams perform. And uh and from there I brought it back into doing work in healthcare and I've now expanded it. I like to work actually now with a lot of um small business owners because I've gathered this expertise from seeing teams and leaders through these different um industries over many, many, many years now. Um so I've done my 10,000 hours certainly.

6:24 And and so, you know, I I think what I like about it is helping organizations, particularly mission driven organizations, that looking at what are some of the cheat codes, if you will, around Yeah. or the or the shortcuts. I mean, I think that's what's really, really powerful. Um, there are a lot of shortcuts and if we understand the brain and the brain science, those are enduring things because they have to do with our human biology and our perception. And so when you can bring those to bear in your team, you can really drive different results quite quickly. And so that's what I love to do.

7:05 There's a a bunch of questions that I have just from that that introduction. Um, a lot personal to me, um, that I see with kids growing up. But before I I get that, do you mention one thing of studying what makes uh at the beginning of your career you mentioned like you're looking at teams and what makes a healthy team? A lot of times we uh just regular conversation with with your average average person, it could be in corporations, it could be, you know, working at a f at a s in a service-based industry. The the team is the dynamic that really matters. It c it keeps it helps with retention, it helps with happiness at at a job, it helps with, you know, people who care about their job and want to put more than they would normally do if they didn't care about their job.

7:48 What is the definition of of healthy in a in a team in a in a business of any sort? Well, it's funny you should ask because I I think that's something with our program that we've created a structure to really understand that. It's not none of these elements are probably your audience will have heard of some of these elements, but I think what's unique codified is the order of what they are makes a difference. So we have what we call a performance evolution pyramid. The base of that pyramid is the role of vision. What makes a strong team is alignment to a shared vision.

8:30 And people really underestimate that. I I would say that's one of the most profound differentiators that I see between high performance and teams that are just sort of doing the work. You know, a really big differentiator. And the base of our pyramid is vision. And leaders need to understand the role of that vision and their role in making sure that that vision is. alive in the organization, it guides decision making, and that it's an ever-present energy that answers the question of why are we here? So that is core. And people all, you know, in leadership there's a lot of talk about the role of vision and vision and being an inspiring leader.

9:15 But I don't think that people understand, and this is, you know, the part I kind of geek out on is like what what about the brain science of that is important and there is key Elements of how we orient to a future uh aspiring, an aspiring future versus our individual uh present day in this moment needs. And so as a leader, your ability to bring that vision in shifts the equation. Because people will orient to something differently. And so that's the base of the pyramid, the middle part. Is what we call approach culture, which from a brain science perspective is really when we think about think about a nervous dog that you meet in, you know, there's a dog running around, let's say it's in the park where you are, and you're thinking this dog looks lost.

10:11 How do I get that dog to approach? Do I want the dog to approach? Right. Right. Or is the dog gonna run away? And so Our nervous systems really, I mean, we like to think we're so sophisticated in our decision making, but the science would tell us that the nervous system is governing whether or not we are in an approach state. And so, you know, in in fancier team language, uh, you know, in Amy Edmondson's work, we talk about psychological safety. But just like that dog, there are certain things that maybe if you have a little dog treat is gonna make the dog come forward. Or there's other things like you running towards it and trying to grab it is gonna make it run away. Um, if you're lucky, or some dogs they're gonna like get threatened and kind of bare their teeth.

10:58 So really the human system is not that different from that. But the the things that make up what's a reward, what creates a threat state, understanding that at a sophisticated level around how we engage with each other socially. is really important. So there's key things that leaders can do. And we all know what they are, you know, people talk about trust. When we feel a sense of trust in an organization, what does that make us do? Approach. We feel engaged. We feel a sense of belonging. We feel we're important. We feel we're being treated like we're competent. And so there's really a recipe for how you do that.

11:39 The maybe the scary part for leaders is that there's a lot that we do to create a threat state. Inadvertently. That's what I help leaders do. I help leaders understand that middle part. How do you maximize reward and minimize danger in a way that people are engaged? Which is kind of uh the secret sauce of team performance. And then once you have the vision and that center part where there really is that psychological safety, it's a little more than that, but it's principally that. It's also about the engagement. Once those elements start to show up, then what I've seen over and over is teams reach this peak of growth.

12:21 And they're in this sort of growth mindset culture where they're able to now have the difficult conversations. And I've seen such massive shifts in teams where they say things like, you know, I've actually had, I've had I had a client who had fibromyalgia, was struggling. Once the team went through this transformation, she actually said to me, I don't have problems getting up in the morning now. I get Wow. up and I'm like super engaged in the work. I feel like I'm in a supportive community. There's something going on. And it's not, I mean, I'm not suggesting it takes care of all your medical issues, but what I am saying is Yeah, of course. that when we have a level of stress and tension and disengagement, and we spend that much time at work, and we know how much people feel their energy is being sapped.

13:11 At work. If that's not a refreshing or replenishing situation, people get depleted really quickly, which we see a lot of right now. And that leads to health concerns as well. And so I think understanding that equation, how important the work environment is to promoting health and wellness, purpose, engagement, community, we really don't. We've been kind of taken over by this capitalist productivity, you know, mindset virus that we're there to like crank out production.

13:52 And that's not how we actually, when we understand humans in our nervous system, that's not how it works at all. If we humanize it around purpose, around engagement, around belonging, around doing work that matters, around bringing your talent. It's a completely different picture. And people, you you get all the things you're looking for. You know, if you set that up as a leader, you get all the things you want. People will automatically, as a result of that, be productive, feel engaged, feel generous with their time. They'll Mm. you'll get retention, you know, all of these factors. But we have to be willing as leaders to look at what are these deeply human needs and how do we meet them.

14:37 And it's it's really interesting, uh, because when we look at it from an from an ocean lens, you know, like an ocean leader lens, where we are seeing a lot more startups and companies that are emerging, um, some faster than others, depending, um, where people that are driving these companies may not have been business owners before. They may have come from a science background. Yeah. Yes. They may have come from a marketing background. They may have come like they were employees in the past, but they have this idea and they want to pursue it as as a company. And they want to be a leader and they want to drive this idea forward.

15:20 There it it's kind of interesting to go from where if if especially if you were like an employee at one point, now into the decision making chair. There's a lot more, you we kind of touched about a lot more stressed, a lot more were things to worry about as in that position. Um, a lot more dedication to the to the job because it's your business and you want to do that. But they've n people don't necessarily always get that training of of what it's like to be a leader, other than maybe their upbringing. And that could be hit or miss depending on everybody has a different upbringing, Yeah. right? Uh, and then you look at it, and I'm sure you studied like, you know. gender biases in terms of like the leadership programs and and and so forth.

16:03 And so that everybody has like that yeah uniqueness of growing up, which may or may not include being a leader or they've been told at one point, well, no, you'll be a great employee, you'll do this, you'll do that. How does one start to get into that leader mindset if they have never been in that before? Is it just like a natural gift that people have or is it something that they can learn to be that leader? It's such a great question. And what comes to mind right away is the inverse relationship between being an innovator or a visionary. So you have a big idea. And this is a bit of the rub, a bit of the paradox is that to do a startup, you have to have a degree of confidence and visionary quality to feel like, okay, this is I have this vision in my mind, and this is what.

17:01 uh I want to drive towards and that's powerful enough to you know sink all my savings or take this financial risk or go into debt or whatever you need to do to to start that up takes a lot of um bravado maybe and at the same time this is the irony of it is that what makes a great leader is a lot of humility about what you don't know. And those two things don't co occur frequently. Yeah. They just don't. And the truth is, is that the more you have humility about, you know, and this is the idea of, you know, there's a concept called Jahari's window. It's like what you know, what you don't know, what you know you don't know. Um and the younger you are, I think, the more, you know, um, like I said, bold you are about your ideas.

17:56 There's a skill set there about, you know, you have to have that self-belief and you have to have that sense of confidence in yourself. But in leadership, to make it real, to take it from an idea to making it real, you need a lot of humility. And I and I think the leaders that I see that do really well with that are very, very astute about who to bring on when to guide the process. Because it it's it feels like an investment to have the right advisors, uh, you know, but the truth is that the money and time that saves by getting guidance with what you don't see, it's what you don't see that's gonna bite you.

18:40 And Yeah. I think the leaders that I see that rise the the quickest and really successfully, I mean, you can always point to examples of people where there's just a hit, you know what I mean? They come up with an idea. the markets ripe, things take off. But that's not the same as sustainable, right? Do you anyone could well not anyone, I mean it's it's a bit of a, it's a bit of a winning the lottery. You know, you get Yeah. you get the right mix of things and things take off. And that's great. And that can happen. But to have more of an enduring, like what are the qualities of a sustainable, enduring organization that's pursuing a a meaningful mission, there's a lot that you need to develop in yourself.

19:25 So back to your question, I think, I think some people who come in with that humility and that sense of visionary, you know, future are w I it's what I would describe as having, you know, maybe more of those inherent talents that are the baseline. But that's rare. Most people, um, and even those people need to work for it. Just it's like anything. I mean, it's it's really like you wanna stay in shape, you wanna be in good shape, or you gotta do your, you know, you gotta do your reps, and that's true of everything.

20:06 And the more you do it and the more you learn, the better you get, really quite simply. Yeah, and I I I Um my first thought when you when you mentioned that about like, you know, there's some people who come in, they grow quickly, they kind of get a hit. It's almost like going viral on the internet on YouTube or something like Yeah. that. Like you might put out a video and it might go like gangbusters, you might just see it it fly off. But then is that your business? Is that bringing in everything? It might, Yeah. but then also it it it might not. And most people are they build their channel slowly and you know they start to they start to gain views the more they post, the more work they put in and you get a workflow, you start to get organized, you start to understand the system a little bit better, the algorithms and everything.

20:51 And I think that's a lot with business is is you it's it's tough to have a product or service just go like crazy. It it can happen, but it doesn't always happen. And and and you you you have to have a bit of that, I guess, patience. coupled with resiliency in a business because it's not all gonna go perfectly. We know that. It's it there's gonna be ups and downs and you have to to get through that. So I guess that the you know, like when somebody uh will come up with an idea and they start to tell people about it. They're really excited about this idea. They start to tell people about it. And and then they might get some people who are like, I don't know if you're like cut out for a business. You know, they get that maybe that that first barrier, which is maybe they're not getting the buy-in from their people that are close to them, family and friends, colleagues and and things like that.

21:44 Is there a way to sort of gauge? And maybe that makes them reflect in is like, am I built for this type of business leadership? And and and if not, what do I need to do to or or what do I need to understand what's ahead of me before I begin this? So I can make that assessment of am I not necessarily am I made for it, but am I ready to go through the ups of ups and downs of, say, like a startup or or being a leader for the first time. Yeah, I think those are, you know, let's tackle the being a business owner and then a leader kind of separately, because a lot of people Okay.

22:29 don't have the initial um runway to bring a lot of that they're not really leading a team initially. Like that's sort of a functional little bit of growth. And some of it is just sheer financing. But but I would say, you know, to be able to bring on a team and have, you know, the finances to do that. There's a number of factors. I would say probably the most important, and the research bears this out, is is just the a degree of determination. Like it's so easy to quit. That's why so many businesses fail after, you know, a year, a couple of years, is that you you just uh it it's you have to have that determination.

23:10 And I wouldn't listen to anyone who tells you you're not cut out for it for whatever other reason. If you're determined, if you're the kind of person who you're like stubborn, maybe in that way, you know, Yeah. and you're just like, I just can't quit stuff. You know, I just can't. I hate being a quitter. I I just don't, you know, even if I get to the point where maybe if you're the kind of person who your friends are like, hey, like, maybe you need to like quit this because you've been in things that you're like, Right. just you know going too too long before you quit that's probably a good quality to take into a business um because you know I I I I I do believe that um because it requires a lot of stick to it.

23:56 It really does. Mm-hmm. Um and I would say that's that is most important. And I and I think the um I mean again back to getting a hit that's where we're with social media people can go viral with the but you know the truth is that people that hang around for a period of time they are in the grind of doing it. I'm sure they're showing you their pictures of them on the beach and their, you know, McLaren or whatever they've got going Ha ha ha. on. And they're you know they they're sh they're they're showing that but the they gotta still get up every day and make those videos and do the thing and keep themselves present to what's going on, you know, I I wouldn't fool yourself that there's not some aspect of showing up and having a consistency. I think that's just key.

24:50 Um, but again, if you're we're talking to ocean leaders, most of these people, uh, I'm assuming, are not in a let's get rich quick kind of scheme. They're in a very mission-driven And so and back to the why, back to the vision. You're in it because you care about doing something that has a positive impact on our oceans. That's why you're here. And that drives you through those kind of gates where you want to quit, where you're being pushed back, where things are feeling overwhelming. You know, and again, back to the brain science. There's all this concept of like allostatic load, things get hard. How do you deal with that?

25:34 How do you push through that? How do you um and I think for me personally, um I'm making it sound like a grind. It's not a grind if you love your work. Like I love what I do. I get excited every day to come to work to support people. To me, it's an endless series of fascinating questions. So that's not a grind. Do I put the time in? Yeah, I put the time, I put a lot of time in. But I don't, it doesn't feel like work, Yeah. Right. right? So it's the old adage, like if you're doing what you love. So that's really important. I would say if you're not doing something you love, if you're doing something that's a flight of fancy or you want to get rich quick, that's why a lot of things fail.

26:20 If you're really committed to a sense of purpose, I want to make a difference here. I have this really cool idea. I think it could tip the scale on things, it could move us forward, it could have these kinds of impact on. you know, the oceans on whatever aspect of that. And I wanna be with other people who care about that. That's not a grind. That's exciting. That's what we live for. That's what you want to set up. You want to set up the conditions that that is the an that's the battery that feeds you. Right. And and as you say this, a lot of the times like these ocean leaders that are coming up with these ideas and they're very new, very innovative.

27:03 You know, we work with a Mm-hmm. lot of of of our clients at at at Pisces where w we're s we're seeing people you're just like, I can't believe like this is this is gonna like this is gonna work. Like they've really come a long way. They've been able to create this these these products or these services where you're like, Okay, this is really gonna help. It's gonna have a great ocean impact. And it and it It's very inspiring to to to watch people like this. But they have to convince people to Yeah. for a lot of different in a lot of different avenues, whether it's a business, whether it's an idea, whether it is to believe in where you work, whether you're working at a nonprofit, a private company, to bring on people to say, hey, like come join me in this, in this, in this vision, uh, where we want to have an ocean impact.

27:49 And and you mentioned earlier like the trust was a big thing to get people to to come aboard the vision. When we're in a a situation where there's innovation that ha like when we talk about innovation hasn't been done before, how do you get people to say 'cause like there's a there's I mean you when you look at the uh I'm I'm a scientist, so I always look at the pros and cons, right? I'm like this could work, but if it doesn't, you know, we kind of have to go back to the to the drawing board. So as as a leader and you you're you want to convince people to come along at ever whatever stage that might be, it might be funding, it might be working as a team like on this on the team and bringing the people on.

28:30 What does a leader have to do uh or or display to people they're trying to convince that this this their innovative idea is is there's a chance that it's gonna work, like and and they b really believe in it. I mean, I'm sure I can come in and be super passionate about an idea, but You know, you could be like, Well, Andrew, like this is you know, I'm not sure if I believe in it. What do I have to display as an ocean leader to really convince people like this is the way? I have so many answers to that question. Ha ha ha. uh Um back to leadership and humility. I think some of it is that, you know, when we sit in the leader's seat, we think we have to be all things.

29:13 And the humility Mm. really points us in a different direction. Sometimes, and I've seen I've seen this working, let's say, with uh healthcare teams with physicians or um other health professionals, nurse practitioners who are very um I would say they're they're highly educated, science-driven professionals. So they can be really bright and have a lot of great ideas. That doesn't mean they're good at communicating. They may be great at the ideas and the communication and the understanding. They may struggle with making connections with people, or they may feel not relatable or There's so many layers to it. And part of it, and I know we're going to talk about this in another episode, but it's understanding your own talents and then how do you bring the right people around to make that a compelling case?

30:13 Like how do you, that's the teamwork part. And I think a mistake we all make, and I see this over and over in leadership, is that leaders think, we we have kind of a very individualistic mindset in the West. That we have the idea of the GOAT, you know, the greatest of all time. Yeah. Yeah. They can do all these things. And I worked with, for example, physician groups. They call them the triple threat. You know, physicians who publish, they are really known as clinicians, and you know, they're great scientists or whatever. So they have all this skill set. They can do academic work, they do, and they're all like, I want to have a person like that on my team.

30:54 The truth is the ones I've met that are really good at that, they're terrible on teams. They're not good team players. They're out for their own like career pr you know trajectory. Um so we really have to sit with that concept a little bit and say, you know, what what do I know? What am I bringing into the world? If you're an ocean leader and you have an idea and it's a compelling idea and you're Really into the science of this, that's amazing. And you can learn how to be a great communicator, but you may just want to have somebody on the team who's a great marketer and who can help you tell that story, which is why Pisces is here, right?

31:39 But you have to bring in those areas of expertise because if you try to do all of that, that's also a really quick road to just burning up. You know, you're not gonna be able to do it. And that's part of being very strategic in your thinking. When you leverage the people around you who have the expertise and those talents, then you go a lot further. Um, sometimes it feels slow because you're having to bring that on. And it with each additional member of your team, even if you bring in consultants, there's a complexity to that that feels um uh A little bit tiring, like, I just want to do it myself because you want to jump on it. But the truth is there's a lot of things you're not seeing back to the Jihari's window. There's a lot of things that you're you don't know that you don't know that. You don't know what's important around the communication there, around the engagement. Those are expensive mistakes to make early on, actually. Um, because you could go into a s to people get really enamored with their idea. The idea is gonna sell itself.

32:50 Just ask yourself for a minute, how many really mediocre ideas have taken off to your immense frustration? I know in my case, I Yeah. felt that too, right? It's really irritating. That's marketing. That's science. That's neuroscience. We know about some of those qualities in the brain that, you know, make people buy a particular product and where it's placed in the store and the number of ads we see. This is all brain-based. Mm-hmm. There's so much science behind this. And so if you think you're going to just jump out there because your idea is like amazing idea, I'm not saying your idea isn't amazing, but you know, there's there's lots of case studies of amazing ideas that things that were better made, better solved problems in a better way.

33:39 And it was something else that caught people's attention and that uh product dominated the market. Leaving some very frustrated other Yeah. um, you know, entrepreneurs scratching their heads and like, I know what I do is better and it's a better solution. It might even be cheaper. That really rubs Yeah. you the wrong way. So it's not just about the economics. A lot of it is about how do you capture the imagination and the engagement. So that's a that's a layered question. Yeah, it's it's yeah, it's it's definitely interesting because as you become a leader, or if you're already a leader, you do have to step back and you have to say, Hey, is this the best way forward?

34:20 Is this the you know, like yes, I have this great idea, I think it's really gonna work, but is it I can't know everything? You know, I have to surround myself with with people who know more of a particular area so that we can really move this idea forward. And and it kinda goes towards you know, th the the emotional aspect of of of being a leader. You mentioned humility as as as a as a big um sort of underlying function of being a leader. Understand that you're not the best at everything and and you may have this great idea, but can you tell the narrative? Can you, you know, do the the the the technical aspect? You can't do it all. If not you everybody would be doing it on on their own and they wouldn't have businesses. It would just be all solopreneurs.

35:06 So How do you explain to to your clients that that you coach to sometimes like step out of the emotional aspect of being a leader, whether it's business, whether it's working as a team? I mean, you know, you're everybody has their own emotions, everybody goes through their own things, whether you're you're a leader of a team, whether you're a leader of a business. And and sometimes those emotions kind of get leaders as well and and it really comes out whether it's, you know, in a negative way or maybe in a in a in a positive way, but that negative way can really affect your team. Yes. How how do you kind of step out of those emotions and really look at the the the leadership aspect and what's best for the team that you're leading or the idea that you're leading?

35:54 Such a great question. Um, and it touches right on what I'm really excited about with complexity leadership. So people think about it as we move our emotions out of the equation. But the truth is, and the science supports this, that emotions are actually what drives all decision making. When people have um certain kinds of disorders or brain injuries that they are having trouble accessing emotion, like neur neurologically have trouble, they are incapable of making decisions. And so we like to pretend we're especially in science, that we are non-emotional, but that it's just not true.

36:37 So the emotions are always there and they're always driving the conversation. And the idea is that if we as leaders can be more aware rather than dismissive of it and learn how to self-regulate, then we are more in control of that. So we've all been in situations where it's a high-stakes discussion or there's high conflict. And people's response to that is, I'm gonna just, you know. Well, we just have to be logical and we just have to cut. But the truth is that your heart is racing, there's cortisol happening, there's adrenaline going in your you you can't stop that any more than when you see a delicious whatever your favorite food is, and saliva starts to get produced, and that is what's happening in your body.

37:28 Yeah. And so understanding pretending that we're being rational is what people do. And some people are. Better able to self-regulate, to deal with that. But most people just numb and pretend it's not happening while it controls really the interaction. And so what I'm doing a lot of work now with leaders for in terms of helping them adapt or having the skill set they need is understanding the role of self-regulation, understanding. your nervous system in a much more profound way to be able to direct your focus, your attention, even in high-stakes situations.

38:21 That is one of the key differentiators of leadership in complexity. That's interesting. Interesting. Uh one thing we we didn't do and I probably should have done it right after the beginning of the episode is define complexity leadership. You know, what is complexity leadership and and and why is it important for leaders to know about and to to understand the concept. You know, in the in the way back when when I started doing this work and I said, I'm a neuroscience based coach that helps leaders to help helping leaders to evolve in complexity. You know, you can imagine I needed help with my communications, actually, which is why I worked with you guys at some point.

39:01 Ha ha ha. Because I needed help to tell the story, right? Because it for me it Right, right. was very technical. And I would get this, oh, like what what are talking about? People didn't know what coaching was, first of all. They didn't know what neuroscience was really Yeah. or how it. How it related. And they didn't understand complexity. So I had three problems in my elevator pitch there. Um, in terms of defining that. And so I think what's important to understand about complexity uh is that since COVID, most people have a nervous system understanding of what this is, which is that there are so many interconnected. Processes and things going on that we cannot discern a linear relationship to things, cause and effect.

39:50 So when we talk about, uh you know, if something's complicated in the field of science, if there's an expert out there who can solve it, then that's a complicated issue. With something we can go to an expert and say, How do we solve this? Climate change, for example, is not. Complicated issue. We can get all of the science scientists together and talk about this bit of evidence and that and whatever, but there's no linear relationship. That's a complex challenge. And so the solution is not discernible by one person, even by a group of people. It's a problem that we walk with and we ask questions about and we experiment.

40:37 And we try, we try different things. And we reiterate and reiterate and say, okay, what I need to plan this. I need to study this. What do I do differently? How do we act? What does the science say? Let's go back to it again. Let's go back to it again. Let's go. It's the idea of wicked problems. Mm-hmm. That's complexity. And and in our world, we're in that a lot more than we're not. Whereas, you know, way back when, I think when I started my career, you know. there was a lot less of that feeling of complexity with things, or that actual context of complexity. There were complex problems, but there was a lot more that the feeling was through science, we can understand these things.

41:21 We can kind of progress in a linear fashion and make sense of it. But what's also important to notice with the technological drivers. We are in a lot more complexity all the time. And part of that, and I think that's what's so critical to say here, is that there's a big mismatch or a disconnect between what our nervous systems are adapted to and what we're dealing with on the outside. Just, you know, one of these devices alone is like it's overwhelming our information capacity and our nervous systems at the same time continually. Mm-hmm. And so our capacity to deal with, you know, we have this, you know, this concept of this smaller cup.

42:06 Like our cup our cup is only so big. Our brains haven't really meaningfully evolved as much as we like to think so in Mm-hmm. tens of thousands of years. Like our ability to what we can actually handle in our brains and nervous systems is quite limited. But we're in, you know, a hyperbolic ascension of. Technology, information, and complexity that has us feeling overwhelmed all the time. And so my work is really in helping leaders appreciate that, understand how to build their capacity, and how just as an individual leader, it's impossible to tackle that. Our ability to be interconnected, work effectively in teams, regulate ourselves, help our teams regulate, and pursue.

42:57 Uh, these challenging questions continually in an environment where we have no idea when we're going to get a forward movement or an answer. So being able to sit in that process of not knowing, very hard for our brains and nervous systems. But the leaders who learn how to do that, adapt to doing that, it's it's a game changer because they're then in a position to get comfortable with that. And then what's actually quite amazing is the capacity that gets released when you're able to hold that in your nervous system. What's I know there's a lot of steps to get to that that point.

43:37 One one step, you know, someone who's listening to this, an ocean leader can take uh to get to a point where they're ready to start to look at complexity leadership and and overcome or or sort of have that space to uh be able to take in the information, process it and throw out what they don't need, but also understand it and and and be able to tackle what they do need. Yeah. I think the first step, if somebody's listening to this and they're like, wow, this sounds like a lot, or where do I start? It's really just starting very simply with your own body and nervous system. You know, one of the things I help leaders do is to have little routines, little habits. And those little routines and habits can produce great gains.

44:26 And some of that is just Do you have a structured morning routine? Do you have a structured nighttime routine? Are you able to decompress? Are you able to, you know, one of the quickest ways and the most, you know, science-backed way to deal with your nervous system is just learning some breathing. There's, you know, 80 million videos you can go to that will show you how to box breathe or deal Yeah. with, right? So just incorporating a small one, and we know this about habits. Habit formation. Pick one thing. Work Yeah. on your breathing today. Work on um when you're leaving work, doing a little bit of a brain dump of everything that's going on so that your brain can return to more of a relaxed baseline rather than being in that high cortisol, high adrenalated, oh my gosh, the the the endless to-do and email um you know pressure.

45:22 Like we just need to learn to be in charge of that. The number Yeah. one thing you can do right now is start making a commitment to pick one thing that's gonna help you to be more in charge of that, whether it's breathing, um, making your list of what you're not gonna get done today, along Yeah. with the list of what you're gonna do, right? Making that realistic. Um, there's a lot of brain-based ways that you can start to um regulate yourself with a sense of I'm on top of this, this is what I can do, I'm accomplishing this. And reducing your level of activation. That's probably the most important thing you can do. I just do versions of that with people at higher and higher levels, really.

46:05 Yeah. I I love that. I think that's a a great first step. Um and it's a great way to end the f this first episode in this in this series about about leadership, talking about complexity of leadership, talking about what you can do and build those small habits as you go through, starting off with one. Uh and so I yeah, I I I love this aspect. Uh you know, Penny, if if people want to find out more information about you, where would you suggest they go? Um, probably the best place is just to go to check out our website at instincts at work.com. So that's www.instincts at work.com.

46:46 Um, so come on over there and check it out. There's lots of free resources, lots of videos, lots of um, there's actually a complexity leadership quotient that looks at how adapted you are that you can take for free. And there's some videos associated with that. So What are some of the areas maybe that you have some strength and some of the areas that maybe you're needing to work on a little bit to be able to be adaptive in complexity? So there's a lot of resources there, and I'd be happy to meet with folks and have a little discussion around what their challenges are and see if coaching or one of our programs would be a fit. Um so you can reach me at penny at instinctsatwork.com.

47:29 And um I must say that I don't have a broader social media presence because I find it overwhelming for my system. Ha ha ha uh So I'm a little a little uh old school on that. Um, but I I love like to be able to listen deeply, connect deeply with people, and take the time to do that. And um yeah, I look forward to supporting anyone who's interested in really mission-driven work. oceans are something that are critical to our uh you know continued human existence and so anyone who's working in that and needs a bit of support and trying to make that successful um you know that's a compelling thing to work on.

48:19 Wonderful. Thank you so much. Penny, can't wait to have you back on when we when we continue this steer this series. thank you again and we'll put all the links in the show notes, including your email if people want to get in touch with you. Thank you again and we'll we'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Andrew. Thank you so much, Penny, for joining us on today's episode of the Ocean Leader Podcast. It was so nice to have you on and to be able to talk about what it is to be a good leadership a leader and then what is Thank you, Penny, for joining us on today's episode of the Ocean Leader Podcast. It was great to have you on to be able to discuss leadership qualities and what leaders should really understand about themselves so that they can lead others to do the whatever innovation or whatever ocean impact they want to be able to accomplish through a business, through a team leadership, through a project, whatever that might be. This is what oh was so great about this episode.

49:18 If you want to learn more about Penny or you want to, you know, talk about working with Penny uh one-on-one, you can do so by going to her website, which is instinctsatwork.com, all one word. I'll put the link in the show notes and I'll put her email as she mentioned in the show notes so you can get up hold of her and have that one-on-one conversation. But one thing that that was really interesting, and and Penny and I talked about it afterwards was the fact that, you know, when we when we talk about A vision is how we can lead with that vision in the day-to-day operation of a team meeting or a business or what that might be to recall for people on the team to recall what they're working for and why they're working at it so hard.

50:06 I think that's really important when we when we do day-to-day operations is to never lose sight of that vision. We do that here at Pisces. Natalie, our CEO, is a great. uh advocate of that and it it helps because it's it not only does it drive it into you know our brains in terms of what we're thinking of, but I ask the question and I say the vision every time I'm working on a project for a client. And so I think that really helps with that. So thank you, Penny, for for bringing that to our attention. it's it's it's really great to be able to have you on to talk about leadership. And I'm looking forward to this series where we're gonna continue that for the next few months. So Don't forget to follow the podcast to make sure that you are gonna get access to this or get it in your feed, your podcast feed on your favorite podcast app.

50:51 And by the way, if you like the podcast, and not only do you follow it, but we'd love to hear your feedback on it. Just give us a rating or review on your favorite podcast app. We'd love to hear some feedback. Also, if there's a specific topic you want us to cover about leadership, about ocean leaders, about the ocean in general. We would love for your comments on that and to find out your suggestions. So thank you again to Penny for joining us on today's episode of the Ocean Leader Podcast. And thank you for listening. It's always great for you to be able to join this community, be a part of this community, uh, and be able to learn from this community. Thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the Ocean Leader Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.