How Ocean Scientists Can Talk About Their Research So People Actually Care

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Are you an ocean scientist who wants to
talk more about your work

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to people outside the science world and
you just don't know exactly where to
start?

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This episode of the Ocean Leaders Podcast
is that one for you.

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You're gonna want to listen to this
because I have on one of

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my colleagues from Pisces Oceans,

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Kirsty Burnett, here to talk about our our
our our I guess it was our journey,

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our hero's journey, let's just call it a
little bit of teaser.

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in science communication and how we
learned that that science communication

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can be a very powerful tool in getting
people to really not only just love

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the ocean because they probably already
love the ocean,

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but understand the issues that it's facing
and how to protect it

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a little bit better. And we're gonna talk
about that today because it's something

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that's needed. You know, Kirsi and I we
just finished doing a ~ workshop with

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the European Elasma Brank Association on
where she led the workshop on
storytelling.

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it's a storytelling workshop that we do
for scientists.

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And a lot of scientists, when they're in
there,

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they're loving the the the hey,

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I I like really like this way of flipping
the narrative to and the the you know,

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looking at the hero's journey to talk
about my science and how to make

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it more appealing to my audience and that
different audiences will have different

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interests and I should curtail my story to
those interests.

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And I think having that conversation among
two scientists

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who became science communicators is really
important for

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you who is maybe l trying to figure that
out and trying to become more of

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a of a science communicator, whether it's
on a platform,

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on a social media platform, or whether
it's just to your family

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and friends and maybe your local school or
local community,

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wherever that might be, or in Kirsi's
case,

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a museum though where she does talks on on
sharks in the ocean.

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A lot of different avenues to do science
communication.

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And it's not just for the general public.

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It could be for policymakers. It could be
~ other like political ~

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members, you know, repres representatives,

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elected representatives, it could be a
bunch of different people.

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And I think that's important to understand
that there are different audiences

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and ways you connect with different
audiences.

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And so that's what we talk about today on
today's episode.

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So let's get into it. ~ and and before we
do though,

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this is a new podcast. We're talking to
scientists,

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ocean conservationists, people who want to
have a positive impact on

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the ocean and they have projects that do
so.

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So if you know someone who might benefit
from this podcast,

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Just flip this podcast over to them and so
they can listen to it so they

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can benefit as well. That's how we grow.

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It's how we get the community involved in
more science communication.

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That's what we want to do here on the
Ocean Leaders podcast.

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And so we appreciate the follow as well as
sharing the episode so that more people

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can get to know it. So here is Kirsty and
I talking about how we

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got into science communication and how
important it is and some of

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the little tips that we have to get
started so that you can talk more about
your

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science. Enjoy, and I'll talk to you
after.

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Hey Kirsty, welcome back to the Ocean
Leaders Podcast.

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Are you ready to have a fun conversation
on why more scientists should

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be doing science communication?

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Yeah, absolutely. Let's dive into it.

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Let's do

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it. I can't wait. This is gonna be a lot
of fun.

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And like I said, this is gonna be a
conversation.

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Christy, you and I work together.

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We'll get you people, we'll get you
familiarized with the people here

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and people familiarized with you in just a
second.

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But we're gonna have a conversation.

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We're colleagues at Pisces Oceans and ~ we
we're both scientists.

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That's our that's our background,

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and we both have kind of turned into
science communicators in one way or
another.

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And so we're gonna talk kind of talk about
like our origin story of

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how we decided to

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Get into science communication and then
we're gonna talk about some

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of the barriers that have stopped us or
kind of pushed us back in terms

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of like maybe we shouldn't be talking
about this,

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or maybe I'm not too comfortable with
doing like social media or anything like
that.

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So we're gonna have all that conversation.

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I can't wait to do that. Kirsty,

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before we do that, why don't you just let
and remind people because you've been

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on this podcast again before, but why
don't you just remind people of

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who you are and what you do?

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Sure, yeah. ~ so my name is Kirsty.

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I am an ocean science manager here at
Pisces Oceans.

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I've been with the company for a year and
a half now.

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my background is in marine biology,

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so I have had the best time in the past
year and a half merging

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my background in marine sciences with all
of the great consulting work we

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get to do to help ocean leaders and other

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Ocean projects succeed through science,

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strategy, and storytelling. So yeah,

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that's a little bit about me.

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There we go. I

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love it. I love it. And and you know,

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I think it's it's kind of interesting
because you know you you and I have known
each

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other for about six months or so since I
since I started here.

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And and we get along really great.

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We have great conversations around like
being scientists and then getting into

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communication and how that all works.

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We have like an understanding of like sort
of where we began.

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And so I I can't wait to to dive into your
to that origin story.

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But a lot of the times, you know,

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when people talk about

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Science, we don't talk about science.

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We talk it to each other. We, you know,

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and we talk it within our own academic
circles,

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our own science and conservation circles.

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But a lot of times we don't talk outside.

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And there are reasons for that.

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We can go into that today. But today,

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like it's gonna be a lot of fun.

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We're gonna get to know a little bit about
your origin story going into science

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communication. So let's let's start there.

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~ you know, you are a scientist,

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you know, you have a master's degree,

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you've worked in between that.

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So why don't you just kind of give us a
little breakdown,

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a little brief breakdown of

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how all how all that happened and and what
drove you to be in science.

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Yeah,

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absolutely. So I am a scientist by trade.

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So I've completed both my bachelor's and
my master's degree in marine biology.

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And it's really funny now that that we're
talking about storytelling

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and communicating, it's just ringing a
bell right now that I think

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one of the reasons I actually got into
science in the first place was

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~ through the documentary Shark Water,

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which

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Of course, is just solely storytelling,

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Yes. Yep.

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right? So

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~ it's storytelling that inspired me to
become a scientist.

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That's kind of funny, just resonating on
this a little bit.

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But ~ yeah, so I I come from a background
~ of MRAD,

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essentially. So learning how to write
things in a very formal structure:

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introduction,

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Mm-hmm.

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methods, results, discussion. ~ and every
scientist has that,

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has that training.

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Does that for publication purposes and it
is how science succeeds in academia?

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But

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Mm-hmm.

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how do we push everything that we're
learning or discovering past academia

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and introduce that to a broader array of
people?

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So policymakers who could maybe push
through the changes that we're envisioning
when

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we're doing this research, or funders who
could help pay for us to

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do extensions of this research,

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or

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Even just the general public, because we
found something so cool.

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We want everybody to know. But all those
audiences are not gonna resonate with

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our our very scientific introduction
methods,

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results, discussion. It's very dry.

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Yeah. And and not only dry,

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but it's like we've been

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~ ~ critiqued so many like so many times
throughout

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our academic careers on how to write that
that article,

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right? And how to write in

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Yeah.

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a way that other scientists will not only
understand,

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but also if you don't write that way,

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you are

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you know, vilified, you know, in terms of
like,

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that person doesn't write like in a in a
good science way.

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I remember my doing my master's degree,

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my professor would just get on me and on
me about like how to write in that

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in that specific format about fact first
and emotions later.

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Whereas like when it's storytelling,

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it's emotions first. And and obviously the
facts

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Yeah.

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come into it, but it is a way of of of
just a different way of of telling

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a story when you're doing it from a
science perspective compared to doing it
from

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I guess more of an emotional perspective
to kind of bring in people

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who are not trained in in that scientific
type of language,

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I guess, right? And yeah.

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Yeah, yeah,

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absolutely. And ~ I think you're hitting
on the the nail on the head here.

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I it's it's essential because if you're
writing a sway,

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it's to make sure that your research is
reproducible.

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But ~ if I am going to the government of
Cabo Verde,

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which this is a real life example,

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if I'm going to the government of Cabo
Verde and I'm saying we want

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to use our background in this research to
apply these methods.

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In your local waters to produce these
results.

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A lot of that is gonna go right over their
head.

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They're government officials, they're not
marine biologists,

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or they're often not marine biologists,

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I should say. So it's

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Mm-hmm.

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how do we formulate everything that we
know to be true in a way that that's gonna

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hit them in the heart or in the gut,

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like you're saying, that is

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Mm-hmm.

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gonna hit them in the emotions to make
them want to come into their country

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to do this research because we've just
convinced them that.

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Doing this is going to help them succeed.

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So it's ~ it's turning the story around.

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It's not about me, me, me, let me do my
research.

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It's how can I help you succeed

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Yeah.

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through what I know to be true or through
the methods that I know that I can apply.

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So it's really just, yeah, making it
relatable.

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Yeah. Well and when you and

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when when you meant when you mentioned
policy,

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it it kind of brought me back because I
remember in two interviews,

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I had to write a policy brief as part of
the interview.

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One was for Department of Fisheries and
Oceans,

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the other one was for a nonprofit
organization.

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And

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That was the first time like I I had s the
first time I wrote it like

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was for the nonprofit and I had never
written a policy brief.

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So I had to look it up and like look at
the way it's done and it has

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to be succinct and it has to get to the
point right away and all that kind of
stuff.

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Where which is different than from
science,

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even though you're still working on facts.

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It's still different in the way you
develop,

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Right.

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you know, the the intro, like short.

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It's a one page or kind of thing.

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The second time I did

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Mm-hmm.

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it, I'm like, I did a a much better job,

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you know, being able doing it before it.

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But it takes a while to get used to that
language and how to get

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your point across. And then if you are
working for like a nonprofit,

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even more so because if it's in person,

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you may have twenty to thirty seconds to
get your point across quickly,

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right? With that

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Yeah.

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minister or whoever you're speaking to,

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because they have to, you know,

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they're off to something else and they
have to go they have to go

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and they don't really want to listen to
you right now because they

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got other things on your mind.

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So you have to make it impactful and you
have to like get their attention

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and you have to do it in a way that
they'll understand and not be annoying to
them.

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you know and

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Yeah.

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I'm sure so with certain politicians it's
annoying anyways,

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but you know, with certain ones they want
to listen,

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you got to get that that point across.

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And but again, it's the different
languages and the different writing styles

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and the different communication styles
that hit different types of professionals,

236
00:10:59,871 --> 00:11:01,822
whether it's policy, whether it's science,

237
00:11:01,822 --> 00:11:06,554
whether ~ it's marketing and whether it's
a general public type of view where you're

238
00:11:06,554 --> 00:11:09,875
trying to get, you know, support for

239
00:11:10,633 --> 00:11:13,045
writing a petition or, you know,

240
00:11:13,045 --> 00:11:16,877
submitting a a comment for a public
inquiry or things like that,

241
00:11:16,877 --> 00:11:20,269
which we're seeing a lot these days ~ in
that type of writing.

242
00:11:20,269 --> 00:11:24,342
So it's a matter of like how do we get
people ready for that and and and

243
00:11:24,342 --> 00:11:26,498
how do you inform people based off of
that?

244
00:11:26,498 --> 00:11:29,896
Cause have to talk about the project in in
different ways.

245
00:11:29,896 --> 00:11:34,989
And I think that's a an interesting way of
of putting like this into it.

246
00:11:34,989 --> 00:11:36,560
So I guess a question for you,

247
00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:40,223
Chrissy, when you first start like you
obviously you you were scientist first as
you

248
00:11:40,435 --> 00:11:42,637
as you grew up in that that type of
environment.

249
00:11:42,637 --> 00:11:47,172
When did science communication really
start to become a big thing?

250
00:11:47,172 --> 00:11:52,127
Was it when you joined Pisces or did you
have that idea beforehand?

251
00:11:52,127 --> 00:11:54,089
Cause you did some diving too in the
Caribbean,

252
00:11:54,089 --> 00:11:55,991
where I'm sure you talked a lot about
science.

253
00:11:54,576 --> 00:11:55,576
Mm.

254
00:11:55,991 --> 00:11:56,991
So where

255
00:11:56,351 --> 00:11:57,542
did that like science communication,

256
00:11:57,542 --> 00:11:59,975
whether you knew it or not, came through?

257
00:12:00,778 --> 00:12:01,778
Yeah,

258
00:12:01,098 --> 00:12:04,632
that's interesting that you you specify
whether I knew it or not.

259
00:12:04,632 --> 00:12:07,195
Because I think looking back on it,

260
00:12:07,195 --> 00:12:11,930
I was doing science communication without
knowing that I

261
00:12:11,930 --> 00:12:13,652
was doing science communication.

262
00:12:13,652 --> 00:12:20,059
And ~ yeah, after graduating with my
bachelor's ~ from Dalhousie

263
00:12:20,059 --> 00:12:22,271
in 2015, I believe now.

264
00:12:22,822 --> 00:12:25,203
I didn't know what I wanted to do with my
life.

265
00:12:25,203 --> 00:12:29,305
So I did end up moving to the Caribbean
for a bit and working as a dive master

266
00:12:29,305 --> 00:12:34,057
and started teaching a shark awareness
dive course there.

267
00:12:34,057 --> 00:12:40,540
And absolutely that involved communicating
science to a very general audience,

268
00:12:40,540 --> 00:12:44,812
a diving community. So how do I speak
about sharks in a way that

269
00:12:44,812 --> 00:12:47,063
the diving community is going to care?

270
00:12:47,063 --> 00:12:48,063
So

271
00:12:47,380 --> 00:12:48,380
Mm-hmm.

272
00:12:47,963 --> 00:12:49,484
it was a lot of ~

273
00:12:49,930 --> 00:12:53,491
Behavioral facts like this is what you can
expect when you're underwater with

274
00:12:53,491 --> 00:12:56,922
the sharks. These are the type of actions
you should and should not

275
00:12:56,922 --> 00:12:58,382
do while you're under the water.

276
00:12:58,382 --> 00:13:01,983
And I think that really came down to
knowing my audience.

277
00:13:01,983 --> 00:13:05,412
And that was very subconsciously happening
in the background.

278
00:13:05,412 --> 00:13:11,216
I didn't know that I was choosing a target
audience to tell the story of shark

279
00:13:10,795 --> 00:13:11,795
Of course.

280
00:13:11,216 --> 00:13:14,367
science, but that was what was happening
behind the scenes.

281
00:13:14,367 --> 00:13:17,760
~ so it started very early and then ~

282
00:13:18,814 --> 00:13:20,346
like I was talking about before,

283
00:13:20,346 --> 00:13:24,963
trying to get permits to do work in other
countries and speaking to policymakers.

284
00:13:24,963 --> 00:13:26,466
So there's a different audience.

285
00:13:26,466 --> 00:13:28,459
I have to speak to government officials.

286
00:13:26,761 --> 00:13:29,853
Mm-hmm. From different countries,

287
00:13:28,459 --> 00:13:31,824
So how do I change? Yeah.

288
00:13:29,853 --> 00:13:32,245
too. Not that you're you like not like a
Canadian

289
00:13:32,245 --> 00:13:34,857
official. You're looking at someone in
Cabo Verde,

290
00:13:34,857 --> 00:13:36,738
right? Or or someone, you

291
00:13:35,785 --> 00:13:36,785
Exactly.

292
00:13:36,738 --> 00:13:40,256
know, you're speaking to a diver who's
probably coming from a

293
00:13:40,256 --> 00:13:42,632
lot of different places because you were
was it Saint Martin?

294
00:13:42,632 --> 00:13:45,174
Was that where you were? Yeah.

295
00:13:43,358 --> 00:13:44,640
It was same rating, yes.

296
00:13:45,174 --> 00:13:46,174
So

297
00:13:45,384 --> 00:13:48,527
like you're in that area. That's where
people are coming from all from the world,

298
00:13:48,527 --> 00:13:50,938
you know, because you got that European
influence as well,

299
00:13:50,938 --> 00:13:52,870
plus the North American influence.

300
00:13:52,870 --> 00:13:54,481
So you're dealing with different

301
00:13:54,837 --> 00:13:56,831
Cultural backgrounds, languages,

302
00:13:56,831 --> 00:14:00,820
and then you're dealing with different
ways government works in in in like

303
00:14:00,820 --> 00:14:03,366
an island community compared to like
somewhere like Canada.

304
00:14:02,356 --> 00:14:04,327
Yeah. Yeah.

305
00:14:03,366 --> 00:14:04,366
Yeah.

306
00:14:04,327 --> 00:14:07,650
So it's very interesting. It's interesting
to think back on it now

307
00:14:07,650 --> 00:14:11,042
and knowing that that was what I was doing
in the background is making sure

308
00:14:11,422 --> 00:14:14,314
I was tailoring the science to the
audience.

309
00:14:14,314 --> 00:14:20,748
And it's ~ in the work that we do with
Pisces when we're helping others develop

310
00:14:20,748 --> 00:14:25,962
their narratives, whether it be for you
know communication strategies

311
00:14:25,962 --> 00:14:29,414
or or during some science communications
workshops that we've been putting on,

312
00:14:29,414 --> 00:14:31,756
that's one of the first things that

313
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,642
of telling everyone is to know your
audience.

314
00:14:34,642 --> 00:14:35,763
~

315
00:14:35,031 --> 00:14:36,031
Mm-hmm.

316
00:14:36,064 --> 00:14:38,916
and your target audience is going to be
the hero of your story.

317
00:14:38,916 --> 00:14:44,320
So just like there are rules when ~
writing a scientific paper following

318
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:50,045
the MRAD structure, there are actually
rules to to doing storytelling
successfully

319
00:14:50,045 --> 00:14:54,919
as well. So it's been really interesting
to apply what I've subconsciously been

320
00:14:54,919 --> 00:14:57,321
doing for years now at Pisces,

321
00:14:57,321 --> 00:14:59,893
~ but in a much more structured way.

322
00:14:59,893 --> 00:15:00,893
So I've

323
00:15:00,778 --> 00:15:03,179
Really been enjoying my journey doing that
here.

324
00:15:03,849 --> 00:15:05,150
Yeah, because I was gonna ask you,

325
00:15:05,150 --> 00:15:08,272
because I was like, you know, you you
speak you're speaking to

326
00:15:08,272 --> 00:15:13,686
the different people as you're growing in
this industry and you know,

327
00:15:13,686 --> 00:15:17,689
d divers, like you know, tourists compared
to policymakers.

328
00:15:17,689 --> 00:15:22,132
Did you know to switch up the language for
both?

329
00:15:22,132 --> 00:15:26,855
Like and and how did you before knowing
the structure to let's say,

330
00:15:26,855 --> 00:15:31,269
how did you do that? Like how did you go
and say,

331
00:15:31,269 --> 00:15:32,269
okay.

332
00:15:32,127 --> 00:15:34,089
I'm talking to a government official right
now,

333
00:15:34,089 --> 00:15:37,111
so I'm gonna have to really hit h home on
these points.

334
00:15:37,111 --> 00:15:42,555
Or I'm talking to a diver from France or
from Canada or from the US,

335
00:15:42,555 --> 00:15:47,219
and even within those countries you have
different kind of people.

336
00:15:47,219 --> 00:15:51,282
How am I going to approach like telling
about sharks?

337
00:15:51,282 --> 00:15:52,282
You know?

338
00:15:52,074 --> 00:15:54,995
Yeah, well, I mean, before, you know,

339
00:15:54,995 --> 00:15:59,747
joining Pisces and following more
structured storytelling to make sure

340
00:15:59,747 --> 00:16:03,299
the work that we're doing alongside our
our partners and our clients

341
00:16:03,299 --> 00:16:04,849
is the most successful it can be.

342
00:16:04,849 --> 00:16:10,572
~ I guess it only just came from trial and
error because you know,

343
00:16:10,572 --> 00:16:15,484
if I'm was telling divers about sharks and
it wasn't landing with them,

344
00:16:15,484 --> 00:16:17,554
well you can immediately see it on their
faces.

345
00:16:17,554 --> 00:16:18,554
You could see if

346
00:16:18,005 --> 00:16:19,005
Right.

347
00:16:18,375 --> 00:16:21,344
someone is is zoning out or ignoring you
or

348
00:16:21,984 --> 00:16:26,485
You know, not following the instructions
that you said they should follow
underwater

349
00:16:26,485 --> 00:16:31,227
because you know you've told them a story
about sharks and how to dive with them,

350
00:16:31,227 --> 00:16:32,507
but it just didn't resonate.

351
00:16:32,905 --> 00:16:33,905
Right.

352
00:16:34,008 --> 00:16:36,398
so it comes with practice like anything
else.

353
00:16:36,398 --> 00:16:39,549
And ~ for talking to policymakers,

354
00:16:39,549 --> 00:16:44,911
if they are giving pushback on something
that I've submitted in an application,

355
00:16:44,911 --> 00:16:48,992
well then I didn't tell them either
clearly or in a way that

356
00:16:48,608 --> 00:16:49,608
Right.

357
00:16:49,756 --> 00:16:51,597
made them feel connected to it.

358
00:16:51,597 --> 00:16:53,858
So, you know, just going back,

359
00:16:53,858 --> 00:16:56,159
iterating on it, trying again.

360
00:16:55,157 --> 00:16:58,512
Yeah. A lot of trial and error.

361
00:16:56,159 --> 00:17:00,862
so I I think that's how I got through it
without knowing

362
00:16:58,512 --> 00:17:00,374
Yeah.

363
00:17:01,182 --> 00:17:03,914
the actual structures behind storytelling.

364
00:17:03,914 --> 00:17:04,914
Yeah.

365
00:17:04,797 --> 00:17:08,951
And and like if you can go back at that
time with the divers,

366
00:17:08,951 --> 00:17:12,494
w how did you what did you find really
worked with them?

367
00:17:12,494 --> 00:17:14,968
Like on an average base? I know they're
all different,

368
00:17:14,968 --> 00:17:20,113
but on an average basis, like what did you
find the tactics that worked for them?

369
00:17:21,856 --> 00:17:22,856
Well,

370
00:17:22,276 --> 00:17:25,898
it was a little bit easier with the divers
because there was already something that

371
00:17:25,898 --> 00:17:28,550
connected us all, and it was a love of
diving.

372
00:17:28,550 --> 00:17:29,550
So,

373
00:17:28,670 --> 00:17:29,670
Right.

374
00:17:29,562 --> 00:17:32,384
you know, really playing on that and

375
00:17:32,684 --> 00:17:39,079
~ communicating about sharks that they're
specifically going to

376
00:17:39,079 --> 00:17:42,811
see on their dive. So not just talking
about sharks on a broad level,

377
00:17:42,811 --> 00:17:44,172
but more specific

378
00:17:43,156 --> 00:17:44,156
Mm-hmm.

379
00:17:44,253 --> 00:17:47,255
so they can get excited about some of the
ones that they're actually gonna

380
00:17:47,255 --> 00:17:48,836
see on their dive. It makes it more

381
00:17:49,726 --> 00:17:52,368
relevant and more immediately meaningful
to them.

382
00:17:52,368 --> 00:17:56,812
I think that was that was really just it,

383
00:17:56,812 --> 00:17:58,914
like having that common connection,

384
00:17:58,914 --> 00:18:00,095
knowing your audience.

385
00:17:59,530 --> 00:18:00,530
Yeah.

386
00:18:00,095 --> 00:18:02,226
So I was a diver, they're a diver.

387
00:18:02,226 --> 00:18:07,201
So I know my own fears when diving and I
can connect with

388
00:18:06,633 --> 00:18:07,633
Mm-hmm.

389
00:18:07,201 --> 00:18:10,804
somebody else's own fears and concerns and
try and mitigate those through

390
00:18:10,804 --> 00:18:13,696
storytelling, for example. And yeah.

391
00:18:13,319 --> 00:18:14,319
Okay.

392
00:18:14,220 --> 00:18:18,405
Yeah, interesting. And then for the Cabo
Verde government,

393
00:18:18,405 --> 00:18:22,180
like that must be a a lot. What was
important like what did you connect with
that

394
00:18:22,180 --> 00:18:27,537
was important to them about the shark
research that your team was doing

395
00:18:27,799 --> 00:18:28,969
at that time?

396
00:18:30,314 --> 00:18:34,597
Yeah, so with them, their communities are
what's most important to them.

397
00:18:34,597 --> 00:18:41,173
So we are coming in as researchers from
more Western societies,

398
00:18:41,173 --> 00:18:47,197
asking to do research in their communities
~

399
00:18:47,258 --> 00:18:49,359
on species that are in their waters.

400
00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:55,064
And I think the key there was being able
to

401
00:18:57,420 --> 00:19:03,964
kind of tailor the story and tailor our
research even to include the community
more.

402
00:19:03,964 --> 00:19:10,679
And so it was building more connections
with the community and going back

403
00:19:10,679 --> 00:19:12,160
to the government and being like,

404
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,202
okay, we're gonna work with this person,

405
00:19:14,202 --> 00:19:17,224
this person, and this person, we're gonna
go in and we're gonna talk

406
00:19:17,224 --> 00:19:21,216
to the fishers before we do any kind of
work to make sure that what we're doing

407
00:19:21,437 --> 00:19:22,437
Yeah.

408
00:19:21,637 --> 00:19:22,637
either

409
00:19:21,957 --> 00:19:25,920
can help them or doesn't affect them in
any kind of negative way.

410
00:19:26,430 --> 00:19:30,175
And I think just understanding what was
most important to them

411
00:19:30,175 --> 00:19:36,214
was community and then tailoring our
research in such a way that would benefit

412
00:19:36,214 --> 00:19:38,077
the community, that's

413
00:19:37,407 --> 00:19:38,407
Mm-hmm.

414
00:19:38,458 --> 00:19:40,971
that's how we got their trust and their
support.

415
00:19:40,971 --> 00:19:41,971
And

416
00:19:41,268 --> 00:19:42,268
Yeah.

417
00:19:42,483 --> 00:19:43,483
yeah.

418
00:19:44,253 --> 00:19:45,443
It's it's interesting because like,

419
00:19:45,443 --> 00:19:50,245
you know, we're talking a lot about the
different audiences that were that

420
00:19:50,245 --> 00:19:52,425
you were communicating with. So you're
looking at divers,

421
00:19:52,425 --> 00:19:55,126
which is sort of a a more general audience
in a way.

422
00:19:55,126 --> 00:19:56,146
They had the diving

423
00:19:55,424 --> 00:19:56,424
Hm.

424
00:19:56,406 --> 00:20:00,678
as a common ~ kind of sort of like a
commonality between among them

425
00:20:00,678 --> 00:20:04,639
and and among yourself. But with the with
the government,

426
00:20:04,639 --> 00:20:08,116
it was more about okay, how do we make
sure that we can not only continue

427
00:20:08,116 --> 00:20:10,960
to get funding but permits and everything
like that to do the research

428
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:12,871
and they're more focused on their
community,

429
00:20:12,871 --> 00:20:13,871
which

430
00:20:13,523 --> 00:20:16,045
obviously makes a lot of makes a lot of
sense.

431
00:20:16,045 --> 00:20:22,011
~ and so we we talk a lot about ~ like
different audiences for me

432
00:20:22,591 --> 00:20:28,136
a lot of the time was to get out away from
like other science circles

433
00:20:28,237 --> 00:20:29,658
and conservation circles

434
00:20:28,842 --> 00:20:29,842
Mm-hmm.

435
00:20:30,018 --> 00:20:34,222
to make more people aware so I was
thinking like the average person.

436
00:20:32,650 --> 00:20:35,593
Yes. Mm-hmm.

437
00:20:34,222 --> 00:20:35,703
When I first came out I was like

438
00:20:35,944 --> 00:20:39,527
I'm going to speak to whoever I can speak
to.

439
00:20:39,904 --> 00:20:40,904
You know, like whoever

440
00:20:40,093 --> 00:20:41,093
Mm-hmm.

441
00:20:40,834 --> 00:20:42,365
wants to listen, if you're interested in
the ocean,

442
00:20:42,365 --> 00:20:45,685
you want to find out, that's why you
that's why you I do I do what I do.

443
00:20:45,685 --> 00:20:50,707
~ it's it's it's changed since then as you
start to realize who your audience is.

444
00:20:50,707 --> 00:20:55,488
but it's a very different like style of of
of speaking,

445
00:20:55,488 --> 00:20:58,449
you know, in terms of just its regular
conversation.

446
00:20:58,449 --> 00:20:59,989
So I always when I do my podcast,

447
00:20:59,989 --> 00:21:01,489
I'm always I'm like how to protect the
ocean.

448
00:21:01,489 --> 00:21:06,551
I'm like, how can how would I speak to my
wife about this or my brother about this

449
00:21:06,551 --> 00:21:07,551
or my

450
00:21:06,592 --> 00:21:07,592
Yeah.

451
00:21:06,881 --> 00:21:07,891
mother about this? And

452
00:21:08,329 --> 00:21:09,650
And and be able to speak to that.

453
00:21:09,650 --> 00:21:13,213
Do you have you taken on that same sense,

454
00:21:13,213 --> 00:21:15,696
depending on who you like, if you're
talking to family members

455
00:21:15,696 --> 00:21:18,889
or friends or anything like that about
questions they may have for you,

456
00:21:18,889 --> 00:21:22,292
which I'm sure you have a lot of people
ask questions about the ocean and stuff?

457
00:21:22,292 --> 00:21:25,519
And I mean, you do you know work with
sharks a lot.

458
00:21:25,519 --> 00:21:27,436
Your husband Manu works with sharks a lot.

459
00:21:27,436 --> 00:21:29,999
And and so there's a lot of of good
questions,

460
00:21:29,999 --> 00:21:32,421
I'm sure, around there and and and
whatnot.

461
00:21:32,421 --> 00:21:34,783
But do you have you kind of

462
00:21:35,487 --> 00:21:39,115
found that it's like a very different type
of of communication in that respect

463
00:21:39,115 --> 00:21:43,445
and you're a little bit more relaxed when
you talk in that in that type type

464
00:21:43,445 --> 00:21:45,801
of tone and and in those types of
situations.

465
00:21:46,634 --> 00:21:47,634
Yeah,

466
00:21:46,974 --> 00:21:50,855
absolutely. I mean, there's yeah,

467
00:21:50,855 --> 00:21:53,806
it's funny that you say that. So in in my
household,

468
00:21:53,806 --> 00:21:56,817
in my personal life, I guess it is very
science,

469
00:21:56,817 --> 00:22:00,168
science, science, because my husband and I
both come from a science background.

470
00:22:00,168 --> 00:22:04,179
So even in our more relaxed conversations,

471
00:22:00,829 --> 00:22:03,347
Yeah, dinner conversations are about
science papers.

472
00:22:04,179 --> 00:22:05,179
I think

473
00:22:05,149 --> 00:22:08,550
even then we're still talking very high
level science.

474
00:22:08,081 --> 00:22:09,081
Ha ha ha.

475
00:22:08,550 --> 00:22:09,731
~

476
00:22:10,531 --> 00:22:13,432
but yeah, ~ I think

477
00:22:14,324 --> 00:22:19,675
What I found most interesting is when you
learn how to communicate your story

478
00:22:19,696 --> 00:22:24,717
to an audience that doesn't know or
understand the topic on the same level
that

479
00:22:24,717 --> 00:22:25,717
you do.

480
00:22:27,572 --> 00:22:32,213
You realize how interesting it is when
you're you're hitting those

481
00:22:32,213 --> 00:22:35,094
key points that are resonating with them,

482
00:22:35,094 --> 00:22:37,325
like either in the gut or in the heart.

483
00:22:37,325 --> 00:22:41,734
And ~ maybe it's a little bit easier with
sharks because sharks

484
00:22:41,734 --> 00:22:45,277
are very charismatic and the stories
surrounding

485
00:22:43,679 --> 00:22:44,679
Yeah.

486
00:22:45,277 --> 00:22:47,158
them are always awe-inspiring.

487
00:22:47,158 --> 00:22:48,158
So

488
00:22:47,443 --> 00:22:48,443
Yeah.

489
00:22:47,978 --> 00:22:51,039
I guess I have a leg up on that and
communicating because

490
00:22:49,951 --> 00:22:50,951
Yeah.

491
00:22:51,319 --> 00:22:53,019
everybody likes hearing about sharks.

492
00:22:53,907 --> 00:22:54,964
Yeah, for sure,

493
00:22:54,964 --> 00:22:55,964
for sure.

494
00:22:56,072 --> 00:22:59,984
Yeah, but ~ well, maybe a good example is
I watched a documentary the other

495
00:22:59,984 --> 00:23:05,177
day on soil and that's not my background
at all and maybe

496
00:23:05,177 --> 00:23:09,039
you would immediately think soil that
sounds extraordinarily boring.

497
00:23:09,039 --> 00:23:10,039
And

498
00:23:09,354 --> 00:23:10,354
Yeah.

499
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,042
then when they when they brought up all
these points about

500
00:23:13,042 --> 00:23:19,075
how soil literally connects us all through
like food and agriculture

501
00:23:19,075 --> 00:23:21,326
and and health of the ecosystem,

502
00:23:21,326 --> 00:23:24,508
that made soil important to me.

503
00:23:25,182 --> 00:23:26,182
Mm-hmm.

504
00:23:25,384 --> 00:23:26,384
And therefore

505
00:23:26,015 --> 00:23:29,810
it made what they were trying to say
interesting.

506
00:23:29,810 --> 00:23:35,344
And I think if you can make a topic
important to the person that you're
talking to,

507
00:23:35,402 --> 00:23:36,402
Mm-hmm.

508
00:23:35,858 --> 00:23:37,680
they will find it interesting.

509
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:38,680
You will have

510
00:23:38,121 --> 00:23:39,121
Yeah.

511
00:23:38,622 --> 00:23:40,144
their attention. Yeah.

512
00:23:40,563 --> 00:23:42,754
Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I I think,

513
00:23:42,754 --> 00:23:47,967
you know, I a lot of people when they're
when they're scientists have trouble,

514
00:23:47,967 --> 00:23:54,081
especially ocean scientists. We have
trouble like going out to public to to to
talk,

515
00:23:54,081 --> 00:23:56,571
whether it's on social media or somewhere
else,

516
00:23:56,571 --> 00:23:58,723
like in large halls and and things like
that.

517
00:23:58,723 --> 00:24:00,864
Public speaking can be a little difficult.

518
00:24:00,864 --> 00:24:07,148
But, you know, a lot of the times we talk
to our family about about sharks

519
00:24:07,148 --> 00:24:08,809
or whatever our specialty is or just

520
00:24:09,247 --> 00:24:13,660
You know, trying to field questions that
are stuff I never even thought about that

521
00:24:13,660 --> 00:24:14,690
I've had questions,

522
00:24:14,188 --> 00:24:15,188
Yeah.

523
00:24:14,810 --> 00:24:15,991
you know, about of like, yeah,

524
00:24:15,991 --> 00:24:17,182
I never actually thought about that.

525
00:24:17,182 --> 00:24:19,953
And and you try and answer the questions
as best as possible from

526
00:24:19,953 --> 00:24:21,404
the knowledge that you know. Now you gotta
remember,

527
00:24:21,404 --> 00:24:23,965
like a lot of times when I talk to people,

528
00:24:23,965 --> 00:24:27,768
I was like, yeah, I I like I can answer
this.

529
00:24:27,768 --> 00:24:29,839
I know this as a as a matter of fact,

530
00:24:29,839 --> 00:24:32,340
but other people may not know this because
I grew up around it,

531
00:24:32,340 --> 00:24:33,421
you know, in in

532
00:24:32,981 --> 00:24:33,981
Right.

533
00:24:33,481 --> 00:24:35,562
in science and and studying it and so
forth.

534
00:24:35,562 --> 00:24:37,023
And I think sometimes you just

535
00:24:37,290 --> 00:24:40,682
The simpler answer the better because a
lot of people that's what they want to
hear.

536
00:24:40,682 --> 00:24:47,246
~ but I find when we start to think about
speaking

537
00:24:47,246 --> 00:24:49,027
to a broader audience, you know,

538
00:24:49,027 --> 00:24:50,027
some of us like I'm not sure.

539
00:24:49,191 --> 00:24:50,191
Mm.

540
00:24:49,820 --> 00:24:51,048
Have you ever spoken to a school?

541
00:24:51,048 --> 00:24:54,931
Like have you ever been asked like a
elementary school or a high school?

542
00:24:52,613 --> 00:24:53,613
yes,

543
00:24:55,900 --> 00:24:59,808
yeah, ~ museums, like local museums I've
spoken to.

544
00:24:59,345 --> 00:25:01,586
cool. Okay. Cool.

545
00:24:59,808 --> 00:25:00,808
Yeah.

546
00:25:01,586 --> 00:25:03,215
Cool. I've had a lot of you know,

547
00:25:03,215 --> 00:25:06,227
I know a lot of teachers, so they've asked
me to come out and I've I've spoken

548
00:25:06,227 --> 00:25:07,898
for like high school students and

549
00:25:07,722 --> 00:25:08,722
Mm-hmm.

550
00:25:08,158 --> 00:25:09,938
elementary school, kindergarten,

551
00:25:09,938 --> 00:25:11,459
all that kind of stuff, which is always
fun,

552
00:25:11,459 --> 00:25:15,530
right? It's it's and it gets a little bit
more of a broader audience because you're

553
00:25:15,530 --> 00:25:16,611
speaking to, you

554
00:25:16,117 --> 00:25:17,117
Yeah.

555
00:25:16,611 --> 00:25:19,741
know, a lot, a lot more different people
and it's a little bit larger groups,

556
00:25:19,741 --> 00:25:21,072
sometimes like twenty, thirty,

557
00:25:21,072 --> 00:25:24,263
depending on on the size of of the classes
and so forth.

558
00:25:24,263 --> 00:25:25,263
And

559
00:25:24,681 --> 00:25:27,521
And I think for even then that's okay
because they feel comfortable,

560
00:25:27,521 --> 00:25:29,272
like like people control the narrative.

561
00:25:29,272 --> 00:25:31,323
I think on bigger levels, though,

562
00:25:31,323 --> 00:25:34,354
or like when you're speaking to sort of
the void of the internet,

563
00:25:34,354 --> 00:25:35,454
it can get

564
00:25:34,796 --> 00:25:35,796
Mm-hmm.

565
00:25:35,614 --> 00:25:37,835
a little bit more intimidating.

566
00:25:37,835 --> 00:25:39,185
And and I have to ask Chrissy,

567
00:25:39,185 --> 00:25:42,086
like like ~ and and it doesn't matter if
it's yes or no,

568
00:25:42,086 --> 00:25:43,316
like there's no judgment here,

569
00:25:43,316 --> 00:25:47,388
but do you talk about su your science or
the work that you're doing,

570
00:25:47,388 --> 00:25:50,278
~ you know, especially with sharks and
stuff like that,

571
00:25:50,278 --> 00:25:52,519
on your social media? Or do are first of
all.

572
00:25:52,949 --> 00:25:54,902
Do you have social media? And then if so,

573
00:25:54,430 --> 00:25:55,430
Yeah.

574
00:25:54,902 --> 00:25:55,902
you know, do

575
00:25:55,744 --> 00:25:59,390
you talk do you talk about that either
that's dedicated or you have

576
00:25:59,390 --> 00:26:02,165
a channel dedicated or is it just more of
like as a matter of fact,

577
00:26:02,165 --> 00:26:04,689
like, hey, this is a ~ bread I just
released or something like that.

578
00:26:05,514 --> 00:26:10,627
Yeah, totally. So, ~ I don't have any
dedicated channel to sharks per se,

579
00:26:10,627 --> 00:26:14,499
but most of the things that I'm speaking
about on my social medias,

580
00:26:14,499 --> 00:26:18,141
which it's really only LinkedIn and
Instagram,

581
00:26:18,141 --> 00:26:21,553
~ are all nature related,

582
00:26:21,553 --> 00:26:25,115
predominantly ocean related, because this
is what I know and what I love.

583
00:26:25,002 --> 00:26:26,002
Yeah.

584
00:26:25,836 --> 00:26:31,199
~ and I do find in particular on LinkedIn,

585
00:26:31,199 --> 00:26:32,900
if I'm writing a post

586
00:26:33,322 --> 00:26:36,923
And I keep it very broad, like for a
general audience.

587
00:26:36,923 --> 00:26:41,835
I'm not getting as much interaction with
that post as if I were

588
00:26:41,355 --> 00:26:42,355
Hmm.

589
00:26:41,835 --> 00:26:46,036
to speak to a targeted audience or to

590
00:26:46,516 --> 00:26:51,878
~ address a specific concern that a
specific group of people might have.

591
00:26:51,878 --> 00:26:55,699
And I think it's because it's harder to
hit to hit the heart or hit

592
00:26:55,699 --> 00:26:59,080
the gut of people when you're speaking to
them broadly.

593
00:26:59,467 --> 00:27:00,467
Mm.

594
00:26:59,601 --> 00:27:00,601
~ more

595
00:27:00,093 --> 00:27:03,969
so than when you're speaking to specific
audience or or you know your target

596
00:27:03,969 --> 00:27:05,222
audience. Yeah.

597
00:27:05,087 --> 00:27:06,087
Yeah,

598
00:27:05,367 --> 00:27:10,491
or sometimes you can know like if a if a
specific topic will hit big,

599
00:27:10,491 --> 00:27:11,512
right?

600
00:27:11,177 --> 00:27:12,177
Yeah.

601
00:27:11,813 --> 00:27:16,687
New species or new information on species
or I mean you live in you live

602
00:27:16,687 --> 00:27:21,541
in Nova Scotia. There's a big I'm not sure
if you've heard apparently great whites

603
00:27:21,541 --> 00:27:23,172
are in Nova Scotia, off the coast of Nova

604
00:27:22,841 --> 00:27:23,841
What?

605
00:27:23,172 --> 00:27:27,616
Scotia. Not sure. ~ but that's like that's
big news.

606
00:27:27,616 --> 00:27:32,449
Have you ever addressed that or talked
about that or posted about that on

607
00:27:32,550 --> 00:27:34,149
on your on your personal social media?

608
00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:38,493
Yeah. ~ great white sharks, not so much,

609
00:27:38,493 --> 00:27:42,386
if I'm being honest, because it's a very
polarizing topic here in Nova Scotia.

610
00:27:42,386 --> 00:27:46,088
So obviously, from a science perspective,

611
00:27:46,088 --> 00:27:49,361
it's awesome that they're here in Nova
Scotia.

612
00:27:49,361 --> 00:27:55,045
They are ~ East Coast Canada's only
protected shark species.

613
00:27:55,045 --> 00:27:57,647
So they're listed on the Species at Risk
Act and protected under

614
00:27:57,163 --> 00:27:58,163
Mm-hmm.

615
00:27:57,647 --> 00:28:00,019
the Species at Risk Act on the East Coast
of Canada.

616
00:28:00,019 --> 00:28:01,200
And

617
00:28:01,896 --> 00:28:04,058
If their populations weren't increasing,

618
00:28:04,058 --> 00:28:05,729
that would be a problem, given that,

619
00:28:05,729 --> 00:28:07,711
given that level of protection that they
have.

620
00:28:07,711 --> 00:28:11,944
~ so it's really good that we're seeing
increased numbers,

621
00:28:11,944 --> 00:28:16,728
of course. That brings along with it some
concern from the,

622
00:28:16,728 --> 00:28:20,951
you know, the community of people that use
the ocean for leisure,

623
00:28:20,117 --> 00:28:22,669
For sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

624
00:28:20,951 --> 00:28:22,843
you know, the diving

625
00:28:22,843 --> 00:28:24,444
community, the surfing community,

626
00:28:24,444 --> 00:28:29,608
for example. So I don't typically talk
about them on my social media,

627
00:28:29,608 --> 00:28:31,510
if I'm being honest, because I don't

628
00:28:32,104 --> 00:28:33,104
want

629
00:28:32,585 --> 00:28:36,090
to to be come across polarizing in any
way.

630
00:28:36,090 --> 00:28:42,398
~ I do like to address feel-good stories
though on my on my social media.

631
00:28:41,405 --> 00:28:44,922
Okay. Can you talk about like an example?

632
00:28:42,398 --> 00:28:45,012
Yeah, yeah, I feel like that that's the
ones that

633
00:28:45,012 --> 00:28:48,427
renon resonate with the general audience.

634
00:28:47,136 --> 00:28:49,218
Resonate? Yeah. Can you talk

635
00:28:49,218 --> 00:28:50,499
about can you give us an example?

636
00:28:50,499 --> 00:28:52,220
Like I know you love your blue sharks.

637
00:28:52,220 --> 00:28:54,863
Do you have a blue shark example or do
have another example?

638
00:28:56,394 --> 00:29:01,587
Yeah, so some of the work that we do for
Dalhousie University,

639
00:29:01,587 --> 00:29:04,058
~ I helped teach a summer course there,

640
00:29:04,058 --> 00:29:07,290
the biology and conservation of sharks
geets and race summer course.

641
00:29:07,290 --> 00:29:11,913
And so we've done ~ blue shark tagging in
the past through that course

642
00:29:12,993 --> 00:29:17,516
and posting about that ~ along with
pictures of the sharks

643
00:29:17,636 --> 00:29:21,578
in their natural environment and they're
like a blue shark is just

644
00:29:22,159 --> 00:29:24,620
the most beautiful, you know.

645
00:29:24,918 --> 00:29:27,450
puppy like shark that you could possibly
post.

646
00:29:27,450 --> 00:29:33,696
so it doesn't come across as quote unquote
scary as a a great white mite.

647
00:29:33,696 --> 00:29:39,182
And so I think people see these sharks and
they get to learn a little

648
00:29:39,182 --> 00:29:42,034
bit about how not all sharks are scary.

649
00:29:42,034 --> 00:29:47,630
Some of them are well s much smaller than
a white shark,

650
00:29:47,630 --> 00:29:49,792
are not a threat to us. ~

651
00:29:50,422 --> 00:29:51,803
They get to see cute pictures,

652
00:29:51,803 --> 00:29:56,177
they get to see the success stories from
our tagging and our releasing.

653
00:29:56,177 --> 00:29:59,009
I think one of the ones that did really
well for

654
00:29:59,009 --> 00:30:04,083
me was ~ I can't remember the year,

655
00:30:04,083 --> 00:30:10,439
but the song Roxanne was playing when we
were tagging and fishing

656
00:30:10,439 --> 00:30:12,470
for sharks to tag, and we caught a shark,

657
00:30:12,470 --> 00:30:15,122
tagged her, released her, we named her
Roxanne,

658
00:30:15,122 --> 00:30:16,854
because that's what was playing in the
background.

659
00:30:15,611 --> 00:30:18,058
Yeah. Love it. Love it.

660
00:30:16,854 --> 00:30:18,175
And two

661
00:30:18,175 --> 00:30:19,175
weeks later, yeah.

662
00:30:19,412 --> 00:30:24,936
And two weeks later, ~ another group who
was out also tagging Blue Sharks caught

663
00:30:25,016 --> 00:30:28,079
her also while the song Roxanne was
playing.

664
00:30:28,079 --> 00:30:31,061
And I just think that is, I mean,

665
00:30:31,061 --> 00:30:32,712
it's the world's largest coincidence,

666
00:30:32,712 --> 00:30:37,966
but it really connected with people
because it kind of anthropomorphized

667
00:30:37,966 --> 00:30:41,909
the animal in a way. Like, this shark
likes the song Roxanne.

668
00:30:41,909 --> 00:30:42,909
She's just

669
00:30:41,957 --> 00:30:42,957
Ha ha ha.

670
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:43,760
like me.

671
00:30:45,866 --> 00:30:46,866
And

672
00:30:45,986 --> 00:30:50,490
I think that really hit a broad audience
because who wouldn't get a good giggle

673
00:30:50,490 --> 00:30:52,817
out of that? And yeah.

674
00:30:52,113 --> 00:30:53,643
yeah, for sure. Well,

675
00:30:53,643 --> 00:30:57,225
I'll tell you, you know, ~ a mutual kind
of friend of ours,

676
00:30:57,225 --> 00:30:59,183
Dav David Ebert, he, you know,

677
00:30:59,183 --> 00:31:03,846
is a lost shark guy and he studies he
finds and describes sharks all the time

678
00:31:03,846 --> 00:31:06,467
or he knows of new species. And when he
posts new species,

679
00:31:06,467 --> 00:31:11,389
he could just post the the the the picture
and maybe maybe the flag of where

680
00:31:11,389 --> 00:31:12,849
it was caught and stuff like that,

681
00:31:12,849 --> 00:31:19,801
just like that. And it won't do as well
unless he puts a musical number behind

682
00:31:19,801 --> 00:31:20,801
it.

683
00:31:20,379 --> 00:31:22,300
And he's a classic rock kind of guy,

684
00:31:21,036 --> 00:31:22,352
That's funny. Okay.

685
00:31:22,501 --> 00:31:26,223
right? And so he'll put like he'll try and
put something that kind of fits

686
00:31:26,223 --> 00:31:28,345
the shark or what he thinks fits the
shark.

687
00:31:28,345 --> 00:31:32,228
And it does a lot, it does a lot better
because it's a little bit more
entertaining.

688
00:31:32,228 --> 00:31:33,769
And people are like, I know this song.

689
00:31:33,544 --> 00:31:34,551
I yeah.

690
00:31:33,769 --> 00:31:34,769
And they they start,

691
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,271
and he has like a bunch of, you know,

692
00:31:36,271 --> 00:31:37,372
different it's like a little video,

693
00:31:37,372 --> 00:31:39,353
but it's like of of different pictures and
stuff.

694
00:31:39,353 --> 00:31:42,435
And people are like, yeah, like this is
this is kind of cool.

695
00:31:42,435 --> 00:31:45,628
And and so I think like it it makes it if
you can make it entertaining,

696
00:31:45,628 --> 00:31:47,559
obviously it it makes it easier because
you're

697
00:31:47,903 --> 00:31:49,904
You're hitting on that emotional
heartstrings,

698
00:31:49,904 --> 00:31:52,314
right? Of of of that person. So I love
that.

699
00:31:52,314 --> 00:31:54,335
I love that that type of story.

700
00:31:54,335 --> 00:31:56,135
~ but I like I have to admit, like,

701
00:31:56,135 --> 00:32:00,026
you know, I remember when I first started
to post,

702
00:32:00,026 --> 00:32:02,997
there were like little barriers that that
happened.

703
00:32:02,997 --> 00:32:06,398
When I first started, like I remember my
advisor telling me like years before,

704
00:32:06,398 --> 00:32:09,679
it's like, be very careful if you do
science communication,

705
00:32:09,679 --> 00:32:14,180
because you know, traditionally it was
through interviews through

706
00:32:14,180 --> 00:32:17,391
~ with journalists. And sometimes

707
00:32:17,801 --> 00:32:20,932
they would manipulate what was said to
make it look wrong.

708
00:32:21,098 --> 00:32:22,098
Yes.

709
00:32:21,492 --> 00:32:24,213
And and that's not what the person wanted
to depict.

710
00:32:24,213 --> 00:32:27,133
It's different now because I feel like we
have our own,

711
00:32:27,133 --> 00:32:30,344
it's it's democratized a little bit with
social media.

712
00:32:30,344 --> 00:32:35,606
You can the the actual scientists can kind
of put out whether they were whether

713
00:32:35,606 --> 00:32:38,257
their stuff was manipulated another piece
and they can put it out as like,

714
00:32:38,257 --> 00:32:39,747
no, I didn't say this. I, you know,

715
00:32:39,747 --> 00:32:43,268
this is what I said. Or they can just do
it themselves on their own channels.

716
00:32:43,268 --> 00:32:47,359
And we've seen a lot of scientists come
out with social media and actually have

717
00:32:47,830 --> 00:32:50,361
pretty much careers out of being a content
creator,

718
00:32:50,361 --> 00:32:51,651
like a science content creator.

719
00:32:50,432 --> 00:32:51,528
Yeah, yeah.

720
00:32:51,651 --> 00:32:54,601
And it's it's pretty incredible to see the
whole gambit from ocean all

721
00:32:54,601 --> 00:33:00,795
the way to terrestrial. ~ did you have any
hesitation when you first started

722
00:33:00,795 --> 00:33:04,546
to post on on Instagram or even LinkedIn,

723
00:33:04,546 --> 00:33:07,057
you know, of of the science that you were
doing?

724
00:33:08,234 --> 00:33:09,234
Yeah,

725
00:33:08,674 --> 00:33:12,107
absolutely. And I it stems from what
you're saying.

726
00:33:12,107 --> 00:33:18,262
~ interviews done with media who have ~
spun what I was saying so that they could

727
00:33:18,262 --> 00:33:23,256
tell their story. ~ but now that I've
gotten more into

728
00:33:23,716 --> 00:33:26,518
the structure of storytelling and what
goes behind it,

729
00:33:26,518 --> 00:33:30,882
I do feel more comfortable posting now
because there are ways to mitigate that.

730
00:33:30,882 --> 00:33:33,724
It's just about understanding how to
structure

731
00:33:34,494 --> 00:33:37,765
your research or whatever point you're
trying to get across in such

732
00:33:37,765 --> 00:33:40,846
a way that doesn't leave room for
interpretation.

733
00:33:40,846 --> 00:33:47,148
So there's still a way to tell your
science paper ~ in a way that

734
00:33:47,368 --> 00:33:49,749
is a story that is going to appeal to
people,

735
00:33:49,749 --> 00:33:53,790
but still gets across all of the same
facts that you've gotten across in your
paper.

736
00:33:53,790 --> 00:33:57,711
And I think when you start to understand
that it's more flipping the narrative,

737
00:33:57,711 --> 00:34:00,932
like we've been saying, knowing your
target audience and ~

738
00:34:02,104 --> 00:34:06,788
knowing what your target audience wants as
well.

739
00:34:06,058 --> 00:34:07,058
Mm-hmm.

740
00:34:07,229 --> 00:34:13,353
And then flipping the narrative to follow
that storyline while also

741
00:34:12,873 --> 00:34:13,873
Mm-hmm.

742
00:34:13,353 --> 00:34:14,876
getting across all your facts,

743
00:34:14,876 --> 00:34:16,998
that's that's the way to do it.

744
00:34:16,998 --> 00:34:20,280
Cause you still can keep in everything
that you want to communicate,

745
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,744
but in a way that is more interesting to a
general audience.

746
00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:26,282
Yeah, I think I think you're right too.

747
00:34:26,282 --> 00:34:30,178
And I think you kind of mentioned
something with flipping the narrative.

748
00:34:30,178 --> 00:34:31,560
~ can

749
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:31,920
Mm-hmm.

750
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,516
you just explain that a little bit more of
what that is?

751
00:34:35,411 --> 00:34:36,411
Yeah,

752
00:34:35,992 --> 00:34:41,176
so I mean I'll introduce it similarly to
how ~ we've been introducing it

753
00:34:41,176 --> 00:34:44,889
in the ~ science communication
storytelling workshops we've been doing.

754
00:34:44,889 --> 00:34:48,341
So there's this narrative called the
hero's journey,

755
00:34:48,341 --> 00:34:51,623
and I think most people don't realize that
they know it,

756
00:34:51,623 --> 00:34:56,687
but in fact everybody does know it because
it's the typical n ~ narrative that every

757
00:34:56,687 --> 00:35:03,052
single box office hit follows from Star
Wars to Lord of the Rings to Harry Potter.

758
00:35:03,784 --> 00:35:09,046
And it's essentially that a hero has a
problem and identifies a guide

759
00:35:09,046 --> 00:35:13,989
who helps them on their journey to solve
the problem and to avoid failure.

760
00:35:13,989 --> 00:35:17,340
So your hero, when you're telling your
story,

761
00:35:17,340 --> 00:35:21,872
is your target audience. So when you start
from point A of a hero's journey

762
00:35:22,032 --> 00:35:24,473
and you imagine your audience as your
hero,

763
00:35:24,473 --> 00:35:30,376
and then you imagine: okay, the problem of
my audience is this.

764
00:35:32,030 --> 00:35:36,865
And then you are the guide giving them a
tool to avoid failure or to give them

765
00:35:36,865 --> 00:35:40,674
a solution to said problem. That's how you
can flip the narrative on.

766
00:35:40,674 --> 00:35:46,265
And it's not, hey, I wanted to answer this
question and created this method,

767
00:35:46,265 --> 00:35:48,077
and these are my results. It's

768
00:35:48,159 --> 00:35:49,159
Right.

769
00:35:49,378 --> 00:35:51,300
the hero going through a journey.

770
00:35:51,300 --> 00:35:52,431
~ And that's

771
00:35:51,955 --> 00:35:52,955
Yeah.

772
00:35:52,431 --> 00:35:53,793
what flipping the narrative is.

773
00:35:53,793 --> 00:35:54,793
Yeah.

774
00:35:54,216 --> 00:35:57,237
Yeah. And I think that's it's it's an
important aspect to learn

775
00:35:57,237 --> 00:35:59,307
as a scientist because I think as a
scientist,

776
00:35:59,307 --> 00:36:02,739
you have an idea of what your question was
and what you were trying to prove.

777
00:36:02,739 --> 00:36:04,949
And now you're telling people what you
were trying to do,

778
00:36:04,949 --> 00:36:06,590
which I don't think is a terrible thing,

779
00:36:06,590 --> 00:36:09,921
but you have to almost if you want
somebody to really,

780
00:36:09,921 --> 00:36:12,082
you know, bite sink their teeth into it,

781
00:36:12,082 --> 00:36:15,483
it's better to put in a perspective that
they'll understand something that that

782
00:36:15,483 --> 00:36:16,483
matters to them.

783
00:36:17,011 --> 00:36:18,772
You know, so if if they like sharks,

784
00:36:17,258 --> 00:36:18,565
Yeah, absolutely.

785
00:36:18,772 --> 00:36:20,233
you can say, this is your favorite shark.

786
00:36:20,233 --> 00:36:21,694
We just did a study on this and,

787
00:36:21,694 --> 00:36:23,975
you know, and d and talk it through that
way.

788
00:36:23,975 --> 00:36:25,486
Or if you're, you know, a fisher,

789
00:36:25,486 --> 00:36:29,859
you can talk more about like if you're or
if your audience is is a fishing audience,

790
00:36:29,859 --> 00:36:33,300
then you're talking more about from a
fisher's perspective to kind

791
00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:35,062
of put yourself in their position to be
like,

792
00:36:35,062 --> 00:36:36,603
what is going to be interesting to them?

793
00:36:36,603 --> 00:36:39,625
You know, I'm not gonna talk about hockey

794
00:36:37,352 --> 00:36:39,072
Exactly. Yes.

795
00:36:39,625 --> 00:36:42,547
to a basketball fan because they're not
gonna know anything about

796
00:36:43,084 --> 00:36:45,615
hockey, right? They're gonna know more
about basketball.

797
00:36:45,615 --> 00:36:47,426
So it's kind of like a you know a
different way.

798
00:36:47,426 --> 00:36:50,207
It's like almost like a different language
of s of speaking to somebody

799
00:36:50,207 --> 00:36:52,748
if you're not hitting what's important to
them.

800
00:36:52,748 --> 00:36:56,186
And I think a lot of times flipping that
narrative to put them in this

801
00:36:56,186 --> 00:36:58,770
in the hero seat and and understanding

802
00:36:57,931 --> 00:36:58,931
Yeah.

803
00:36:58,770 --> 00:37:01,181
why it's important to them is is is so
great.

804
00:37:01,181 --> 00:37:04,392
Now of course you and I didn't know
anything about that when we first first
started

805
00:37:04,592 --> 00:37:06,863
doing this type of of of work,

806
00:37:05,673 --> 00:37:06,912
No, no.

807
00:37:06,863 --> 00:37:07,863
right?

808
00:37:07,043 --> 00:37:08,884
We're just like I'm just gonna talk about
science.

809
00:37:08,884 --> 00:37:10,635
It's gonna be fun. It's gonna be about the
ocean.

810
00:37:10,635 --> 00:37:11,635
It's gonna be

811
00:37:11,595 --> 00:37:13,918
It's gonna be fun. Now, once you learnt
that part,

812
00:37:13,918 --> 00:37:18,154
~ how did you find like communicating?

813
00:37:18,154 --> 00:37:23,310
Did you find it easier once you learned
sort of like the the the structure

814
00:37:23,731 --> 00:37:26,314
of say the hero's journey, flipping the
narrative,

815
00:37:26,314 --> 00:37:27,314
all that kind of stuff?

816
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:32,128
Mm-hmm. ~ I wouldn't necessarily say
easier because it's still a skill.

817
00:37:32,128 --> 00:37:33,170
~ but

818
00:37:32,618 --> 00:37:33,618
Yeah.

819
00:37:33,170 --> 00:37:37,376
I will say more successful in
communicating and and getting

820
00:37:35,453 --> 00:37:37,150
Right. Right.

821
00:37:37,376 --> 00:37:39,329
my messages across. Absolutely.

822
00:37:39,329 --> 00:37:40,329
Yeah.

823
00:37:39,913 --> 00:37:41,804
Yeah, yeah. And I and I me too.

824
00:37:41,804 --> 00:37:44,286
I find like when I first started doing it,

825
00:37:44,286 --> 00:37:45,615
I was I was trying to, you know,

826
00:37:45,615 --> 00:37:47,999
follow some people. There there aren't a
lot of s there aren't a

827
00:37:47,999 --> 00:37:53,643
lot of like professionals that can come
that come out as science communicators

828
00:37:53,643 --> 00:37:55,454
to help others. You know, we we have a
few.

829
00:37:55,454 --> 00:37:58,046
Obviously Pisces try is is doing that as
is you know,

830
00:37:58,046 --> 00:38:01,219
we're doing that now. but ~ you know,

831
00:38:02,023 --> 00:38:06,437
Randy Olson was probably sort of sort of
the OG of of doing that type and and

832
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:04,840
Yeah.

833
00:38:06,437 --> 00:38:08,215
teaching people about that science
community.

834
00:38:08,215 --> 00:38:09,429
Not that he's old by any means,

835
00:38:08,328 --> 00:38:09,328
Absolutely.

836
00:38:09,429 --> 00:38:11,041
but you know, he's he's teaching,

837
00:38:11,041 --> 00:38:12,041
writing books

838
00:38:11,711 --> 00:38:13,413
and and housing having a podcast.

839
00:38:13,413 --> 00:38:16,756
And he works with a lot of different
government departments and and groups

840
00:38:16,776 --> 00:38:21,940
to to teach them about the the you know
the the and ~ but there for the

841
00:38:21,940 --> 00:38:23,842
ABT sort of process and like

842
00:38:22,474 --> 00:38:23,737
Yeah, yeah.

843
00:38:23,902 --> 00:38:29,437
actual storytelling frameworks and
structures so that people can understand.

844
00:38:29,900 --> 00:38:31,841
~ and that's kind of like what we're doing
too,

845
00:38:31,841 --> 00:38:37,284
because you and I see the importance of
science communication and what that

846
00:38:37,284 --> 00:38:40,025
can do and what that has done for a lot of
people,

847
00:38:40,025 --> 00:38:41,916
~ not only for their own careers,

848
00:38:41,916 --> 00:38:47,780
but also to get people to to understand
and and protect the ocean ~ in in

849
00:38:47,780 --> 00:38:53,042
a a more in an easier way. ~ and I've seen
more and more science since I started,

850
00:38:53,042 --> 00:38:55,063
I've seen a lot more science communicators
out there on a

851
00:38:55,063 --> 00:38:58,035
lot of different platforms, whether it's a
public platform like

852
00:38:58,485 --> 00:39:01,697
TikTok, Instagram, newsletters,

853
00:39:01,697 --> 00:39:04,697
LinkedIn, Facebook or or what have you,

854
00:39:04,697 --> 00:39:08,562
or they do speeches and and talks in front
of classrooms and businesses

855
00:39:08,562 --> 00:39:13,885
and and and things like that to help get
people interested and help,

856
00:39:13,885 --> 00:39:17,511
you know, hit that like flip that
narrative and and get them and be like,

857
00:39:17,511 --> 00:39:20,869
this is why, this is why it's an important
to you.

858
00:39:20,869 --> 00:39:23,101
Do you find like

859
00:39:25,147 --> 00:39:28,573
Now is an easier time. Like as if you were
a scientist and you weren't

860
00:39:28,573 --> 00:39:29,825
in the position that you're in now,

861
00:39:29,825 --> 00:39:32,799
because obviously we're biased now in
terms of science communication,

862
00:39:32,457 --> 00:39:33,457
Yeah.

863
00:39:32,799 --> 00:39:33,799
but do you find

864
00:39:33,681 --> 00:39:39,891
it easier now to talk about science than
it was even five or ten years ago?

865
00:39:40,830 --> 00:39:41,830
Absolutely.

866
00:39:41,961 --> 00:39:46,485
And I think it's every scientist has
probably felt that when they're trying

867
00:39:46,485 --> 00:39:49,867
to talk to someone about their work and
they feel like they're talking to a wall.

868
00:39:49,867 --> 00:39:51,028
And that's because

869
00:39:50,548 --> 00:39:51,548
Mm-hmm.

870
00:39:51,028 --> 00:39:54,826
when you're communicating, if someone
isn't resonating with what you're saying

871
00:39:54,826 --> 00:39:58,955
or even understanding it, then you're not
communicating it well,

872
00:39:58,955 --> 00:40:00,056
to be honest.

873
00:39:59,593 --> 00:40:00,593
Yeah.

874
00:40:00,216 --> 00:40:03,399
Scientists are very good at communicating
to other scientists,

875
00:40:03,370 --> 00:40:04,370
Mm-hmm.

876
00:40:03,959 --> 00:40:08,002
but often not good talking about their
work to anyone else.

877
00:40:08,002 --> 00:40:09,904
~

878
00:40:08,883 --> 00:40:09,883
Yeah.

879
00:40:10,602 --> 00:40:13,964
Yeah, but I do find, you know,

880
00:40:13,964 --> 00:40:17,777
just stepping back from the facts,

881
00:40:17,777 --> 00:40:19,308
like the nitty-gritty numbers,

882
00:40:19,308 --> 00:40:23,241
for example, or and this and that,

883
00:40:23,241 --> 00:40:24,241
and this,

884
00:40:23,924 --> 00:40:24,924
Right.

885
00:40:24,262 --> 00:40:29,325
and so on, and so on, and and following
the and but therefore ~ narrative

886
00:40:28,789 --> 00:40:29,789
Mm-hmm.

887
00:40:29,325 --> 00:40:30,856
that you're saying, and really,

888
00:40:30,856 --> 00:40:36,930
you know, highlighting at a high level why
what you're doing

889
00:40:37,271 --> 00:40:38,271
matters.

890
00:40:38,473 --> 00:40:39,473
Mm-hmm.

891
00:40:39,690 --> 00:40:43,302
that's where it started to become easier
to communicate because when

892
00:40:43,302 --> 00:40:45,018
you communicate why it matters,

893
00:40:45,018 --> 00:40:46,202
people start to care.

894
00:40:46,816 --> 00:40:48,978
Yeah, it's like the so what kind of thing
in marketing,

895
00:40:48,978 --> 00:40:51,570
right? It's like why so what? Like you're
talking about this,

896
00:40:49,118 --> 00:40:51,998
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

897
00:40:51,570 --> 00:40:52,570
but why does it

898
00:40:52,070 --> 00:40:55,122
matter to me? Why do I need to to to learn
about it?

899
00:40:55,122 --> 00:40:57,945
And I think ~ there's a lot of barriers,

900
00:40:57,945 --> 00:41:01,808
I think, for for a lot of scientists to
start talking about their science.

901
00:41:01,808 --> 00:41:04,920
One is like just even the just the
beginning of doing it,

902
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,492
like just to actually get into the process
of doing it.

903
00:41:07,492 --> 00:41:13,967
What would you recommend for people in
terms of how should they just start
talking

904
00:41:13,967 --> 00:41:16,049
about their their science? Who should they
start?

905
00:41:16,447 --> 00:41:19,812
to talk to. I mean, I we're not we're not
expecting people

906
00:41:19,812 --> 00:41:23,278
to have Instagram accounts and just
dedicated to those accounts to doing that
kind

907
00:41:23,278 --> 00:41:26,643
of stuff, but who would you recommend that
how how would you recommend that they

908
00:41:26,643 --> 00:41:27,643
start?

909
00:41:27,690 --> 00:41:31,493
Yeah, I think the easiest way is to just
talk with friends and family about your

910
00:41:31,493 --> 00:41:35,517
work. And if you're speaking with them and
they're understanding what you're saying

911
00:41:35,517 --> 00:41:37,348
and understanding what your research is,

912
00:41:37,348 --> 00:41:43,033
then you're already one step closer to
having a good story around your research.

913
00:41:43,033 --> 00:41:44,033
~ and then when

914
00:41:43,464 --> 00:41:44,464
Yeah.

915
00:41:43,904 --> 00:41:46,296
you identify the so what, like you just
said,

916
00:41:46,296 --> 00:41:49,268
I think that's where really the story can
fully formulate.

917
00:41:49,268 --> 00:41:54,523
Like it doesn't matter if I go out and say
blue sharks are overfished,

918
00:41:54,523 --> 00:41:55,523
so what?

919
00:41:56,073 --> 00:41:57,740
Yeah. How does that affect me?

920
00:41:56,618 --> 00:41:57,629
Why why sh

921
00:41:58,168 --> 00:42:02,633
yeah, why should whoever you're speaking
to care that blue sharks are overfished?

922
00:42:02,633 --> 00:42:03,633
When

923
00:42:02,794 --> 00:42:03,794
Yeah.

924
00:42:03,163 --> 00:42:07,657
you can identify that for each of your
target audiences,

925
00:42:07,657 --> 00:42:09,123
for whomever you're talking to,

926
00:42:09,123 --> 00:42:10,123
that's

927
00:42:09,543 --> 00:42:10,543
Yeah.

928
00:42:10,159 --> 00:42:11,300
when you've succeeded.

929
00:42:11,925 --> 00:42:16,719
Yeah, 100%. I agree. And and I I think
almost I would even go one step further.

930
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,942
And if somebody if you're gonna talk to
somebody or if they have questions,

931
00:42:19,942 --> 00:42:21,013
like what are you interested in?

932
00:42:21,013 --> 00:42:25,776
You know, it's like it's like I can tell
you about my research and that's fine.

933
00:42:25,776 --> 00:42:27,639
It may not matter to you as much,

934
00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:29,060
so I don't mind talking about it.

935
00:42:29,060 --> 00:42:31,162
but like what are you interested in?

936
00:42:31,162 --> 00:42:36,467
Or try to make your research more
appealing to the person you're talking to.

937
00:42:36,660 --> 00:42:37,660
Yes.

938
00:42:37,364 --> 00:42:38,364
Right.

939
00:42:37,634 --> 00:42:41,215
So see, like if you have if you're talking
about sharks being overfished,

940
00:42:41,215 --> 00:42:47,677
which is an important issue, try and like
come up with an analogy that would that

941
00:42:47,677 --> 00:42:49,227
would kind of flip the narrative to say,

942
00:42:49,227 --> 00:42:50,778
Hey, this is why it's important to you,

943
00:42:50,778 --> 00:42:52,368
mom, or to you, brother, or to you,

944
00:42:52,368 --> 00:42:54,579
sister, or whoever, and say,

945
00:42:52,810 --> 00:42:54,390
Yeah. Yeah.

946
00:42:54,579 --> 00:42:57,799
Yeah, like this is you know, this is it's
like losing something,

947
00:42:57,799 --> 00:43:01,130
or it's like, you know, imagine you didn't
have Starbucks all of a sudden.

948
00:43:01,130 --> 00:43:03,181
You know, that's kind of like the the
ability.

949
00:43:03,181 --> 00:43:04,181
That's this is my

950
00:43:03,860 --> 00:43:04,860
Yeah.

951
00:43:04,137 --> 00:43:05,267
my girls. That's how they think.

952
00:43:05,267 --> 00:43:06,638
So, you know, it's,

953
00:43:06,638 --> 00:43:08,948
it's ~ it I think it it's a hard,

954
00:43:08,948 --> 00:43:10,409
it's a hard exercise at the beginning,

955
00:43:10,409 --> 00:43:12,129
but once you start to think in those,

956
00:43:12,129 --> 00:43:15,000
in that way, I think it's I think it's
really good.

957
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,591
And the other thing I would say too is
like the ABT structure is

958
00:43:18,591 --> 00:43:21,212
the and but therefore structure.

959
00:43:21,212 --> 00:43:22,742
Practice

960
00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:22,740
Absolutely.

961
00:43:22,742 --> 00:43:24,413
putting your research in that.

962
00:43:24,413 --> 00:43:26,573
Like write it out a coup a

963
00:43:26,005 --> 00:43:27,005
Yeah.

964
00:43:26,573 --> 00:43:28,274
number of different times, rehearse it.

965
00:43:28,274 --> 00:43:30,764
So when people ask you, you can kind of
come up with that.

966
00:43:30,764 --> 00:43:33,075
You'll be surprised at how many people

967
00:43:33,919 --> 00:43:38,131
will be interested in that in that type of
structure in your story afterwards.

968
00:43:35,826 --> 00:43:38,513
Absolutely. Yeah. And for everyone
listening,

969
00:43:38,513 --> 00:43:41,730
the therefore is the so what in this
situation.

970
00:43:41,321 --> 00:43:45,436
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.

971
00:43:41,730 --> 00:43:44,336
Yeah.

972
00:43:45,436 --> 00:43:46,436
Yeah.

973
00:43:46,037 --> 00:43:48,359
And I think that's important. It's like
you come up with the like it's a what is
it?

974
00:43:48,359 --> 00:43:49,941
It's basically the problem, right?

975
00:43:49,941 --> 00:43:51,423
This is the or or

976
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:51,719
Yeah.

977
00:43:51,423 --> 00:43:54,969
like here's the situation, but this is
what's happening like so here.

978
00:43:54,208 --> 00:43:58,731
And the problem, but this is

979
00:43:54,969 --> 00:43:58,641
Yeah. And the problem, but and then yeah.

980
00:43:58,731 --> 00:44:05,035
what can be done and therefore save the
world or whatever you want your outcome

981
00:44:01,545 --> 00:44:04,176
Yeah. Save the world. Exactly.

982
00:44:04,176 --> 00:44:06,246
Yeah. Yeah.

983
00:44:05,035 --> 00:44:06,035
to be.

984
00:44:06,246 --> 00:44:08,957
Yeah. Exactly. And I think it's it's a
tough thing.

985
00:44:08,957 --> 00:44:10,966
I remember for the How to Protect the
Ocean podcast,

986
00:44:10,966 --> 00:44:13,378
on my intros, I did, I did the ABT.

987
00:44:13,378 --> 00:44:16,499
And it took me so long to kind of figure
out the intros and to kind

988
00:44:16,499 --> 00:44:20,590
of rehearse them in a way that sounded
like I wasn't reading it just

989
00:44:20,590 --> 00:44:23,031
to sound like so you had to rehearse it
and rehearse it and rehearse it.

990
00:44:23,031 --> 00:44:26,952
When you're doing one study, it's easier
to do than you practice like your elevator

991
00:44:26,952 --> 00:44:28,462
pitch. You practice it with everybody.

992
00:44:27,988 --> 00:44:30,621
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and your

993
00:44:28,462 --> 00:44:30,383
And I think it's I think it's important.

994
00:44:30,621 --> 00:44:32,653
ABT can become your elevator pitch.

995
00:44:32,653 --> 00:44:34,856
Yeah.

996
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,302
Exactly. Yeah, 100%. 100%.

997
00:44:35,622 --> 00:44:39,826
And I think, look, I I think just to get
started is more of just the practice.

998
00:44:39,826 --> 00:44:43,499
And yes, you'll probably sound
uncomfortable or you'll feel uncomfortable
when

999
00:44:43,499 --> 00:44:45,391
you first say it the first couple of
times.

1000
00:44:45,391 --> 00:44:48,704
But the idea is if you're listening to
this podcast and you want

1001
00:44:48,704 --> 00:44:50,495
to start talking more about your science,

1002
00:44:50,495 --> 00:44:54,399
try these methods. Just try speaking to
family and friends about it.

1003
00:44:54,399 --> 00:44:55,830
Even just try and say, Hey, I'm gonna,

1004
00:44:55,830 --> 00:44:57,131
I want to start talking about my science
more.

1005
00:44:57,131 --> 00:44:59,143
Can I try this on you? Let them let

1006
00:44:59,465 --> 00:45:02,926
them hear all your mistakes and then as
you get better and better better

1007
00:45:02,926 --> 00:45:05,470
and under they they'll be better
understanding you then you can try

1008
00:45:05,470 --> 00:45:08,503
it with more people and you can go forward
and and and do it that way.

1009
00:45:08,503 --> 00:45:10,455
Speak to schools, all that kind of stuff.

1010
00:45:09,352 --> 00:45:11,206
Absolutely, yeah.

1011
00:45:10,455 --> 00:45:11,726
They're always looking for volunteers

1012
00:45:11,726 --> 00:45:14,658
to talk about you know marine science and
and stuff like that.

1013
00:45:14,658 --> 00:45:17,571
And so if you have the time it's always a
a great way to do this.

1014
00:45:17,571 --> 00:45:19,082
But Christy like final words

1015
00:45:18,676 --> 00:45:19,676
Yeah.

1016
00:45:19,082 --> 00:45:22,775
like what would your final advice be for
people who are who's listening

1017
00:45:22,775 --> 00:45:24,567
to this like the scientist who's like

1018
00:45:24,406 --> 00:45:26,938
Sure, yeah. Mm-hmm.

1019
00:45:24,567 --> 00:45:26,769
I want to talk about ocean science and
concentration in my work.

1020
00:45:27,098 --> 00:45:32,391
Mm-hmm. ~ so we've talked about these
narrative frameworks and how it's

1021
00:45:32,391 --> 00:45:34,102
a skill that needs to be practiced,

1022
00:45:34,102 --> 00:45:39,246
but I would say the takeaway should be
that you shouldn't be scared to dive into

1023
00:45:39,246 --> 00:45:43,729
it because as scientists we're all very
good at following structure

1024
00:45:43,809 --> 00:45:48,092
and storytelling methods, and these
narrative methods are just

1025
00:45:48,478 --> 00:45:50,500
new structures to learn and to practice.

1026
00:45:49,770 --> 00:45:50,770
Yeah.

1027
00:45:50,500 --> 00:45:55,957
So, you know, as scientists, you've
already ~ nailed the IMRD structure.

1028
00:45:55,957 --> 00:45:58,200
So this is just your next challenge.

1029
00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:59,200
And I

1030
00:45:58,373 --> 00:45:59,373
Yeah.

1031
00:45:58,841 --> 00:46:04,477
have full faith that if you can ~
confidently put together a scientific
paper that

1032
00:46:04,477 --> 00:46:07,832
you can confidently put together
storytelling narratives.

1033
00:46:08,499 --> 00:46:10,921
Absolutely. So, you know, try it.

1034
00:46:10,921 --> 00:46:13,563
We can we know you can do it. It takes
practice.

1035
00:46:13,563 --> 00:46:15,785
So get that experience in as much as
possible.

1036
00:46:15,785 --> 00:46:19,909
And then just go out and do it for
whatever platform or whether like,

1037
00:46:19,909 --> 00:46:22,951
you know, ~ area where you feel
comfortable in doing it.

1038
00:46:22,951 --> 00:46:26,664
~ and I think it's important. We need more
science communication out there.

1039
00:46:26,664 --> 00:46:29,547
We need more people talking about the
science and conservation that's going

1040
00:46:29,547 --> 00:46:33,060
on so that other people that are outside
these circles can understand,

1041
00:46:33,060 --> 00:46:36,413
you know, what we're talking about and and
what needs to be done to make sure that

1042
00:46:36,413 --> 00:46:37,413
we get.

1043
00:46:37,212 --> 00:46:39,404
A better, a better ocean, a better
protected ocean.

1044
00:46:39,404 --> 00:46:41,043
Kersi, thank you so much for joining us.

1045
00:46:41,043 --> 00:46:42,043
It's it's been so

1046
00:46:41,184 --> 00:46:42,184
Thank you.

1047
00:46:41,846 --> 00:46:44,618
nice to have you back on. Looking forward
to you coming on again.

1048
00:46:44,618 --> 00:46:47,110
We'll have chat more science and science
communication.

1049
00:46:47,110 --> 00:46:52,032
~ and and Kirsi just did ~ a storytelling
workshop for the European ~

1050
00:46:52,184 --> 00:46:54,175
was it the European Elastic Association?

1051
00:46:54,175 --> 00:46:57,078
Was that what it is? Yeah, at their
conference.

1052
00:46:54,730 --> 00:46:56,064
Yeah, yeah, yes.

1053
00:46:57,078 --> 00:46:58,078
So

1054
00:46:57,298 --> 00:46:58,949
and it went really well. People loved it.

1055
00:46:58,949 --> 00:47:00,370
People love the flipping of the narrative.

1056
00:47:00,370 --> 00:47:01,370
It's it was awesome.

1057
00:47:01,985 --> 00:47:03,266
so thank you for doing that, Kirsty.

1058
00:47:03,266 --> 00:47:06,017
And of course that you could if you guys
are interested in doing

1059
00:47:06,017 --> 00:47:08,559
a storytelling workshop, please let us
know.

1060
00:47:08,559 --> 00:47:12,071
You can contact us. We'll put contact
information in the show notes

1061
00:47:12,071 --> 00:47:15,813
and you can check it out. we'd love to to
do a storytelling workshop

1062
00:47:15,813 --> 00:47:20,605
for for your organization or your ~ lab or
whoever that might be.

1063
00:47:20,605 --> 00:47:21,916
But thank you so much for joining us.

1064
00:47:21,916 --> 00:47:22,916
We really appreciate it. Thank you,

1065
00:47:22,836 --> 00:47:23,887
Kirsty. I really appreciate it.

1066
00:47:24,544 --> 00:47:25,544
Thanks, Andrew.

1067
00:47:26,333 --> 00:47:29,346
Thank you, Kirsi, for joining us again on
the Ocean Leisure Podcast.

1068
00:47:29,346 --> 00:47:31,818
Can't wait to talk to you more about
science and cont

1069
00:47:31,818 --> 00:47:35,601
and conservation and communication and all
that wonderful stuff.

1070
00:47:35,601 --> 00:47:38,894
it's always great to be able to talk to a
colleague who's kind of been through

1071
00:47:38,894 --> 00:47:40,485
the same thing but in a different way,

1072
00:47:40,485 --> 00:47:44,679
having the the experience of talking to
scuba divers in the Caribbean

1073
00:47:44,679 --> 00:47:46,390
who are on vacation about sharks,

1074
00:47:46,390 --> 00:47:51,264
and then talking to ~ a policymaker or a
decision maker in in

1075
00:47:51,264 --> 00:47:54,057
the Cabo Verde government to get permits
and to

1076
00:47:54,366 --> 00:47:56,517
Have an understanding, have a better
understanding or communicating

1077
00:47:56,517 --> 00:47:59,297
a better understanding of what the project
that she was doing with

1078
00:47:59,297 --> 00:48:02,108
her teammates there in Cabo Verde with
sharks.

1079
00:48:02,108 --> 00:48:04,669
Very interesting project. We'll probably
have around to talk more about that,

1080
00:48:04,669 --> 00:48:07,499
as well as her husband Manu, who is also
involved in the project.

1081
00:48:07,499 --> 00:48:09,820
And ~ it's just it's a wonderful story.

1082
00:48:09,820 --> 00:48:12,371
And it's it's it's great to hear the
different perspectives

1083
00:48:12,411 --> 00:48:16,392
of how people communicate and then how we
do it to audiences.

1084
00:48:16,392 --> 00:48:20,223
I have the How to Protect the Ocean
podcast that I've been running for over

1085
00:48:20,223 --> 00:48:21,223
11 years now.

1086
00:48:21,479 --> 00:48:24,251
I also co host a Beyond Jaws podcast with
Dr.

1087
00:48:24,251 --> 00:48:25,701
David Ebert. I host this podcast.

1088
00:48:25,701 --> 00:48:27,812
So podcasting is my platform that I love
the most.

1089
00:48:27,812 --> 00:48:31,912
I also have a ~ YouTube ~ show on on
YouTube,

1090
00:48:31,912 --> 00:48:33,836
a YouTube channel called Ocean Decoded,

1091
00:48:33,836 --> 00:48:37,738
where I go live or I do long form videos
and I do shorts as well.

1092
00:48:37,738 --> 00:48:41,730
It's it's just different ways of of
getting to different audiences.

1093
00:48:41,730 --> 00:48:44,902
And I speak in in in different ways when I
when I talked in on those

1094
00:48:44,942 --> 00:48:47,863
on those episodes. But it's important to
me to get that out there,

1095
00:48:47,863 --> 00:48:49,764
and it's something I've dedicated my life
to doing,

1096
00:48:49,764 --> 00:48:51,085
to because I think it's a

1097
00:48:51,303 --> 00:48:52,954
It's an important part of conservation.

1098
00:48:52,954 --> 00:48:54,876
And science is just the one aspect.

1099
00:48:54,876 --> 00:48:58,889
And we have to be a little bit more
flexible as scientists and who we speak

1100
00:48:58,889 --> 00:49:01,861
to about the science and about the
conservation.

1101
00:49:01,861 --> 00:49:05,524
And we have to do it in ways that other
people will understand and other people
will

1102
00:49:05,524 --> 00:49:08,306
get interested in. And we talked all about
that with Kirsty today.

1103
00:49:08,306 --> 00:49:11,148
And I'm very happy that we got to cover
that.

1104
00:49:11,148 --> 00:49:14,330
So if you have a question or you would
like us to come in

1105
00:49:14,331 --> 00:49:15,681
and do a storytelling workshop.

1106
00:49:15,681 --> 00:49:17,032
We would love to be able to do that.

1107
00:49:17,032 --> 00:49:20,374
just click the link in the show notes
where you can get access to that

1108
00:49:20,555 --> 00:49:23,517
~ to that form and you we can we can have
a discussion,

1109
00:49:23,517 --> 00:49:25,868
we can have a meeting and discussion of
what you would like out

1110
00:49:25,868 --> 00:49:27,059
of that storytelling workshop.

1111
00:49:27,079 --> 00:49:29,721
And that's it for today's, episode on the
Ocean Leaders Podcast.

1112
00:49:29,721 --> 00:49:31,752
I really appreciate your time and
listening.

1113
00:49:31,752 --> 00:49:35,634
Don't forget to share this with somebody
that you think would benefit from this

1114
00:49:35,634 --> 00:49:38,826
and getting more into science
communication or even a science
communicator that

1115
00:49:38,826 --> 00:49:41,878
you know, ~ you can send this as well and
see what their tips are.

1116
00:49:41,878 --> 00:49:44,349
~ we'd love to hear about all about that.

1117
00:49:44,651 --> 00:49:46,754
thanking you so much for joining us on
this episode.

1118
00:49:46,754 --> 00:49:48,217
I'm your host, Angela. Have a great day.

1119
00:49:48,217 --> 00:49:50,240
We'll talk to you next time in happy
conservation.