Why Do Ocean Conservation Projects Fail? (And How to Fix Them)

0:00 everybody, welcome to the first episode of the Ocean Leaders Podcast, a Pisces Oceans podcast. I am your host, Andrew Lewin. For today, I am the Ocean Communications Manager at Pisces Oceans. I have a history of podcasting, if you don't recognize my voice, I host the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. And I co-host the Beyond Jaws podcast. So I have a history, a long-running history of doing podcasts for the environment. And when I joined the team as the Ocean Communications Manager for Pisces in April, the first thing that ~ the co-CEOs and I decided to do, ~ it was like, hey, let's plan out a podcast for Pisces so that we can help ocean projects succeed and for ocean leaders like you to make sure that those projects have a positive impact on the ocean, just like you set out to do.

0:47 so I'm very excited that this is our first episode. We have a great episode for you today, and it really functions as two things. One is to introduce the team. So you have our co CEOs, Melissa Weber and Natalie Gilson, and our ocean project manager, Kirsty Burnett, and of course myself. We are talking about one of the topics that we've seen happen a lot, a lot, a lot. And we tackle the big questions why do ocean projects stall? It's a question like heard. often from past and future clients doing ocean projects and who want to succeed. We don't want these projects to stall. We help our clients to make sure that they get over the hump of of being stalled and making sure that we get there when they know.

1:28 And this is what we do we help our clients make sure those projects succeed and not stall. So we're talking about some of the examples that we've seen over the past, whether they're clients that would first come to us or we've seen just observed in our regularly scheduled daily lives. but we are really here to have that conversation and talk from different perspectives. ~ you know, what we do. And Pisces, that's what we do is we help ocean leaders get their ocean projects over that hump to make sure that you can have that ocean impact through science, through strategy, and through story. It's what we do, it's what we love to do. So let's start with the first episode the team. Talking all four of each other in person, which doesn't happen often because we're all remote.

2:10 We were in person for the HTO conference. We decided to sit down and enjoy our time. ~ and so here is the conversation ocean project stalling with Melissa Weber, Natalie Gilson, Kirsti Burnett, and myself. Enjoy, and I'll talk to you after. All right, everybody. Welcome to the Ocean Leaders Podcast, a Pisces podcast. I am very, very happy and excited today to be joined by the Pisces team. And we're gonna introduce everybody in just a second. But today we're gonna be talking a little introduction of who we are and why we do what we do, but we're also gonna be talking about why ocean projects stall. That's the big question that we have been seeing a l from a lot of people around all some of our our past clients, our future clients, people we've been talking to who are doing ocean projects that want to be successful and we want to help them be successful and that's what we do here.

3:02 So this is what we're gonna be talking about today. So it's gonna be a lot of fun. But first what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna introduce everybody. ~ well they'll allow them to introduce ourselves. So Melissa, let's start with you. Sure. So yeah, my name is Melissa Weaver. I'm the co CEO of Pisces. My ocean journey is maybe a little unconventional. I'm not a marine biologist. I'm not a diver. And I love the ocean from land. ~ But my journey really started when I was a kid. I was always super fascinated by the ocean, and Flipper was one of my favorite movies ever. I loved dolphins, but being landlocked in Ontario.

3:43 Ontario, I never really saw that as a career path. So for me, I started university with some big dreams. I actually started in international development. I thought that was gonna be my pathway to changing the world. And then I realized quickly that that's all about economics, and that's not really that interesting for me. So I pivoted. ~ You know, I was in Ottawa at the University of Ottawa and I pivoted to geography. ~ and that's where I you know, found my passion for the environment and eventually in oceans. ~ during my PhD I started working with ~ communities in Nunavut.

4:27 on ~ the impacts of shipping, marine tourism, all that sort of stuff. And then around the same time I found myself ~ traveling to the Dominican Republic. I met my husband and now I live on an island. So the ocean is a huge, huge part of my life. And my desire to protect it is really, you know, comes from a place that it's connected to everything. ~ everything we do, our economy, our livelihood, ~ and having a daughter now, it's it's important for our future. So ~ yeah, that's my my journey.

5:08 I love it. Great story. I love it. ~ Natalie, how about yourself? Sure. So hi, I'm Natalie Gilson. I'm the other co-CEO of Pisces. ~ and much like Melissa, my journey into oceans is not conventional at all. I've also not started out as a marine biologist or anything in the sort of traditional sphere of oceans. ~ but I have always always been connected to the ocean. It's been part of my identity ~ all the way back as far as I can remember, because actually my very first memory is even. Of the ocean, and I still remember it super super clearly. I think I was probably two and a half, three years old, and my family were out on the West Coast, Canada's West Coast, and we were we were kayaking.

5:54 My my dad's a kayak guide, so my dad was kayaking, I was in a canoe with my mom. ~ and I remember sitting up and looking out over the edge of this canoe on this like typical West Coast foggy morning, and I saw something pop up out of the water, and I had no idea what it was, but it was staring at me. And you know my two-year-old self is like, What is that? It's amazing. And so I'm staring back in it. We're having a steering contest. And ~ I know now that it was a harbor seal. But in that moment it was just like there's this mysterious creature from the depths of this mysterious ocean and and I was hooked. So I grew up inland in Calgary, but ~ every summer was characterized for me by trips to the west coast, paddling with my family, camping, that kind of stuff, tide pool exploring, getting to check out all the cool creatures, from starfish to you know, everything, everything. And it's just always, always stuck with me. ~ however, I never thought that the ocean was a viable career path for me because sciences were not really my not really my thing.

6:59 I'm very creative, artistic person and I I kind of wanted to pursue that a little bit. ~ so I went into archaeology, which has nothing to do with creativity, but but that's where life took me and I had a great first career as an archaeologist and then did come back to my creative self. Started a creative business of my own around ten years ago. did a bunch of years in in communication strategy, brand strategy, marketing design, ~ visual storytelling, that kind of stuff in the sustainability sphere. ~ and then had an opportunity in 2023 to pivot what I was doing. ~ I I realized that the sustainability sphere was was not a niche. for me, it was too big to really play in.

7:48 But I at the same time had a realization that the ocean industry was not being supported by the creative communications industry in the way that it needs to be because in oceans it's not business as usual. We can't take marketing practices from outside of the sector. And expect them to work because we're not just selling products, we're not just selling services in this industry, we're selling purpose and impact and change. And so the techniques to do that are different. So I was, I joined Pisces in 2023 and finally have found where I belong, kind of at this gap or intersection, sorry, between communications and storytelling and my lifelong passion for the ocean.

8:32 Love it. I love it. It's a great story. How about you, Christy? Yeah, so hi, I'm Kirsty Burnett. I am an ocean project manager here at Pisces. ~ and I guess my story, unlike Melissa and Natalie, is a little bit more conventional. ~ I grew up near the ocean. I grew up on the eastern shore of Nova Scotia, so Nova Scotia is where we are headquartered. ~ and You know, weekends for me as a child were spent at the beach and maybe quite annoyingly for my parents collecting jellyfish from the water and bringing them over to them to to show and ~ why why don't you wanna pick They're squishy, they're fun, and yeah, just playing in the waves and you know, always having sandy feet and salt in my hair and ~ yeah, I think it just i it instilled that love of the ocean in me at such an early age and ~ my parents have drawings from me from when I'm, you know, five, six, seven years old of different ocean creatures and ocean scenes.

9:41 And ~ a friend's parent actually messaged me the other day on Facebook like, hey, I have some artwork from you from elementary school. It's this Play-Doh Clay type shark thing. Do you want it? And I'm like, no, thank you, but that's so funny. That's so cool. yeah, so I I I think I just knew. I always wanted to to do something with the ocean and I loved documentaries, in particular Sharkwater is the one that really like drew me in and connected me to the ocean. I was like, yeah, the ocean, but sharks. Make it sharks. and so I thought, you know, science was gonna be the route for me.

10:24 So I stayed in Nova Scotia, got my bachelor's of science in marine biology from Dalhousie University, ~ got to learn under some fantastic researchers, loved my journey there. ~ but ended my bachelor's still not really knowing if science was what I wanted to do or what exactly I wanted to do. So decided, hey, why not work in the ocean for a bit? So moved to Saint Martin in the Caribbean and worked as a dive master ~ for for a bit, for about a year and a bit, and got to introduce other people to the ocean and have them experience everything that I love and teach them a little bit about the the animals that I came to to grow and know during my time as a bachelor's student at DAO.

11:14 But it still didn't feel quite like the right fit for me. So I did eventually come back to Nova Scotia. Where I met my now husband and he is originally from Germany. So once he finished up with his PhD at Dalhousie, we took off to Germany where I did my master's. also in marine biology. Okay Yeah. guys. ~ unfortunately, you know, six months into my journey in Germany, COVID hit, so we all remember how those times could be. So I didn't get to experience Europe in the way I would have liked, and I think it really maybe it made me miss Nova Scotia more than I would have had there not have been a global p global pandemic.

11:56 But, you know, when I finished my masters, I was like, you know what, like I I need to go back to Nova Scotia. I need to go back to the ocean. and see what opportunities were for me there. And you know, long story short, event eventually after moving back, I ended up at Pisces and I really, really feel like home. with this organization and ~ It's not doing the science, but it's helping the science succeed. And I really think that was the missing piece of the puzzle for me. Like I was doing the science, but the science wasn't going anywhere. And being with Pisces and being with a a team of experts that can really help researchers, academics, industry with their ideas and their ocean projects, whatever it may be, succeed to the next step.

12:47 ~ yeah. That's a little about Yeah. me and how I ended up at Pisces. That great story. I I I I definitely feel what you're saying there at the at the end there where we're you know, we want science to get to the next level. We want conservation to get to the next level. that's that's sort of how I end up in with my path. You know, I growing up as a marine biologist, ~ you know, you always want to be a marine biologist growing up Ontario just like you, Melissa, not far from from you and and and ~ really realizing what I wanted to do at that point in time. It's just that stubbornness of like always wanting to do marine biology. No matter where I lived, and that's what I was going to do. You know, went did my undergrad at University of Guelph, go work for a little bit, come back home, ~ go out to Acadia University in Wolfville and live in Halifax and you know work on marine protected areas and then back to Ontario, went. And so, you know, trying to navigate being a marine biologist in Ontario, Canada was a difficult thing to say the least.

13:45 Found some jobs, worked on the Great Lakes, you know, got a great some great experience. and then I went to a conference. conference. I was kind of consulting on my own for a bit and I went to a conference in at the University of PEI. It was Coastal Zone Canada. And one of the somebody said something that really resonated with me is like We're all we're here, we're all scientists, conservationists, coastal practitioners, engineers and so forth, and we're all preaching to each other. We're sharing information to each other, we're preaching to the choir that we need help. We need to up conservation, we need to increase it, we need to scale it, ~ we need businesses to get involved and and investment to be made. And it was it was interesting because like there was nobody from the public that was there except for one session, a guy from the guy from PI came out.

14:32 He retired and and was bought a like his dream house on the the coastline and he's like I wanted to look out every morning and see blue water and now it's green. Why is it green? And it was a simple question, right? That a lot of people probably feel in and around that area. And we answered it there, and he's like, Great. He's like, when does this get held? Is this like a weekly thing? It was a it was a yearly conference. And then he's like, we need more of this. We need more people talking to ~ you know, to to just the the Average citizen that that needs to know. And ~ and that kind of ~ sort of inspired me to start doing more science communication to the public. And that kind of catapulted my journey into science communication. ~ and I started a lot of it on my own because I couldn't get a job in communication because back then they didn't really have a lot of science communication positions, and the ones that they did, I didn't have any experience.

15:25 I was a scientist, and so I I I got my own experience through blogging, through. YouTube videos and then I found podcasting as my true passion, which obviously has led to here. ~ which really did lead to here because Natalie and I met through the podcast and then I to found out about Pisces, and then when you joined Pisces and ~ you know, and and when you and Melissa took over Pisces, it just made sense to bring me on and and it to be honest, it's it's a dream job, you know, and and it's ~ just as Chrissy said, it's really nice to see science and conservation projects hit that next level. You know, let next level of funding, next level of expansion, next level of communication and getting out to the oceans.

16:10 And we're seeing this need for project management capabilities, grant management capabilities, communication strategies and how do they get out there beyond just doing it themselves, 'cause let's be honest, people want to do the science but they want to do the conservation. It's it's a lot of work to do everything else. And I feel like this is where Pisces really excels in that aspect. So ~ and I know I'm preaching to the choir right here around this table that we're doing this, but for those of you listening, that's sort of w you know, like what we do here at Pisces, right? We we team up, we collaborate and we partner and we and we help other people get to the what they want to do. It's which fulfills us for sure. ~ but speaking of which in terms of projects, right So yeah, we see a lot of projects that do some some projects do really well.

16:56 But we talk we talk to a lot of organizations, you know, collaborations from academic institutions and for profit companies where their projects just kinda halt. You know, they they they just stall and we don't and they don't know why or they they've come up to a bit of a a head when it comes to g getting it to the next level, whether it's a funding ~ thing or whether it's ~ a a project management thing or it's just a capacity thing. That's something that that we see quite a bit with a lot of projects, especially here in Canada and and beyond. ~ I've seen it through you know the the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. When I talk to people, I hear that about the struggles. ~ and so like I what we what I'd like to do for all of us is just kind of talk about why these projects stall, right? And and what really happens.

17:42 So Melissa, we'll start we'll start with you because you are the project manager extraordinaire. you know what what is some of the things like you know, what's the moment. in like in a in a ocean project where y you most often s see things kinda go a little sideways. Yeah, that's a good question. I think a lot of times it's, you know, everyone the sor should say projects start off strong. In the beginning, everything, everyone's excited, the vision is coming to life, everyone's invested. Then you get, you know, a little bit further down the road and new ideas emerge. Students move on, employees move on.

18:27 And then that's where things start to I don't want to say unravel, but you know, momentum stalls. And I think the reason for that is is couple there's a couple reasons, but one of them, of course, is capacity as ocean leaders, ocean visionaries. There are more tasks in a day than there are times. And there's also, you know, we're not all experts at everything. If you have a PhD, you're an academic, you're an ocean leader, you're a CEO, your expertise is very niche. And you probably don't want to spend your day ~ writing reports on your your funding or doing some of those things that maybe don't fall into your into your zone.

19:13 But I think the other interesting piece is that ~ by nature, especially academic institutions, the way they're set up doesn't allow for consistency amongst projects. So if you think about funding life cycles, funding life cycles are often shorter than project needs or or the the the topic at hand. But also then when you layer in, you know, you have a four year project you're bringing in master students, they're only there for two years. So, you know, that consistency amongst the project life cycle i is hard for for a lot of ~ projects, not necessarily just in academia, but in industry as well. You know, people ~ move on, especially I would say in more junior positions when you're, you know, you have funding and and stuff like that.

20:11 So I think that's really the the advantage that that Pisces ~ has is that we're a neutral we're a neutral party as well. Yeah. You know, we can come in, we can provide that consistency. but we can also we're on bias. So we can talk to different partners in a way that ~ you know, sometimes you can't have those conversations. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I I've seen that a lot where, you know, you s you see that turnover effect in in in a lot of these groups, especially losing students or you see even the funding runs out before the project can be actually completed or it needs extra funding later on, knowing that it needs extra funding and it's just not getting it or or something like that. That can be like a really big hindrance.

21:03 And especially with those junior positions, those student positions, I feel like that's where a lot of the work Like the grunt work gets done where like the the stuff that really takes a long time kind of gets done and then it get it gets pushed up the ladder to professors or whoever's in charge, like PIs who are in charge to kind of go over it and make sure that everything is is done well. it's a it's a hard like it's it you you know you want the students to come in, you want them to do the work. Obviously they're gonna go out depending on how long the project is and where they come in from that perspective. These are graduate students and and undergraduate students, but from a like ~ how do how do people plan for that? Like f you know, like th those who are in charge, whether it's a lab manager, a project manager, ~ and they see these students come in, how do they plan to ensure that there's continuity, you know, going forward if there if somebody new comes in or there's some 'cause it's it's gonna happen. There's gonna be turnover, whether it's a academic institution, whether it's a nonprofit, whether it's a for a for profit company, how do you have that that PI kind of like go forward and and look forward to make sure that there's continuity?

22:07 Yeah, that's a great question. I think I would roll it back a little bit and I think one of the key things, which is really hard to do, when you're in the proposal phase, you have you know, you're mapping out what the what the project is gonna look like, what your budget's gonna look like. And of course, you're a visionary, big ideas, you have a grand vision. But you almost need to put on the glasses of what is actually realistic and what can we achieve in these four years? And then make sure that your budget aligns with that. Because sometimes what I see is that ~ especially with the budget piece, it's really hard to plan for the future.

22:49 Cause sometimes the the lag time between when you're submitting a proposal and when it actually gets a I mean it could be ~ up to a year. And by that time, you know, the world could be a different place like we saw with COVID. Yeah. so there is that balance between what did I say I was gonna do, what is the reality of the situation now, and and making sure that you're you're meeting that. ~ so Yeah, I think it's really important to to consider that when you're especially in your budget to make sure that you've you know, you've got money kind of across the years to ensure that continuity. So you know, if you're gonna have master students, make sure that they overlap so that they're, you know, kind of passing passing knowledge along.

23:35 Yeah. Or same with like employees, ~ you know, making sure that there's one champion of the project who's Who's there and who knows how to talk about the project, knows how to share with with the team, whether whether it's the same people throughout, or yeah, whether you like we talked about it the turnover. But yeah, I think making sure that that you've got buffers in in different areas, buffers in your timeline, buffers in your budget, so not ~ you know, not making your budget in year one too heavy because Yep. ~ You know, things take time to get going and and you don't want to leave money on the table. Absolutely, absolutely. ~ Kirsty, going into the project management, 'cause you also specialize in in in managing in managing projects and you have a background in shark like shark research and and in shark biology.

24:25 you and I have seen this happen quite a bit with shark projects, you know, starting with grand sort of ~ goals and and you know, l as we know sharks, we don't know as much as we think about sharks, especially with all the different species. What I think we're looking at when you include skates and rays and chimeras over twelve hundred. species and counting. what do what have you seen in your experience with a lot of the shark projects happen and then and why do some of those stall or some of those kind of go a little sideways? I mean it's not just shark projects. Right. I it's everything. It's science in general, i industry. If you if you specialize in something and you're an expert in something that's very niche, presumably you also have a passion for it.

25:10 ~ and then that is what you want to focus on. And everybody wants what they're doing to have an ocean impact. But realistically is it? Like is it aligning with what stakeholders need to, you know, investigate if they can put a wind park in a certain area? ~ can a policymaker actually use your data or your piece of technology to help establish ~ like a protected species or a protected area? So it's it's really you want to do the research because you love the animal or you love a sp a piece of technology, but how can we bridge that gap between Scientific research into real world application.

25:59 And I think that that's where it really stalls. And you know, when if you're applying for funding, it's something that you need to be aware of because you need to have that story piece, which I'm sure Natalie will be able to talk more about. yeah, but but really like you need to show why your research matters to more than just you as an individual or or you as a lab or you as a company. What is the real world application for what you're doing because that's how projects are gonna succeed. That's how products are are gonna get funded or or make money or or whatever your path is or whatever you're working on. Yeah. The real world application.

26:42 And that's where it stalls people are not able to easily bridge that gap. And ~ it was along the lines of what Melissa was saying, we can come in unbiased ~ and help Help projects, people, principal investigators figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we love doing. That's absolutely ~ now I I got a bit of a different question for you. what's the thing project leaders don't realize they're underestimating and why is it communications? ~ yeah. Yeah, communications. Well nobody ever thinks the first thing I'm gonna spend my money on is communications. Ever. And and in reality, like some of what Kirsty's saying there and and Melissa too, like it all comes back to communications.

27:28 Like if you can't yeah, if you can't figure out why your project matters, then why is anybody gonna fund it or care or wanna keep doing it? ~ communications is almost one hundred percent of the time an afterthought. ~ it's something that people go ~ we'll do it if we have money. Yeah. Or it's kind of fluffy, not necessary. Or so we'll just have ~ a student do it. Or you know, we'll we'll bring someone in who's keen on Instagram and they'll be able to do our communications and it's the the the importance of it is so so so underestimated.

28:08 Yeah. Because how you talk about your work is the difference between it being refunded or not funded again or funded in the first place or whether or not it has impact, whether or not communities will accept it, whether or not it will go on to the next stage. Like it's The the projects that think about communications from the beginning go so, so much further. Right. Because it is that bridge. Communications is the mechanism that bridges the research world or the tech world to the real world application. Right. ~ and yeah, it's just it's just never considered to be as important as it actually is.

28:54 Yeah. Right. Yeah, no, it's true. It's ~ we see it all the time. It's and I think you know, some of the the projects that I've seen that have gotten a lot of funding, getting renewal funding from different sources throughout are the ones who communicate right from the beginning. It's almost like follow our journey. Like we've got this really cool project and however they decide to communicate that, whether it's through video or imagery on social media, not on social media, whether it be a conferences or or to investors or to donors, like I've seen people who are doing tagging projects that had ha like people just donated the yachts to use while they're doing it. Not on a workboat but on this like multi million dollar yacht. And you're just sitting here like how does that happen?

29:36 It's connections, it's networking, but it's that communication I think it goes beyond just what ~ let's put up a couple of social media posts and let's let's do that. We're seeing some really creative ways of communicating but very targeted ways of communicating in the future. And I think that's w that's where the projects really lies is you want to accomplish something, you're trying to solve a problem, or you're trying to maybe show that there's a problem or there's a benefit and there's a more optimistic view. But you have to be able to to connect with the people you're trying to connect with, whether it's a local community, whether it's beyond, whether it's national, international, or all three, depending, you have to have different campaigns for that.

30:17 And I think, you know, that's something I've learned over my time, you know, listening to all these projects that we've had on the How to Protect the Ocean podcast and being able to go These conferences and be able to see that and see a lot of people struggle, you know, more than not. And the ones that do get there are the ones that have a really good communication strategy, whether it be a lot of followers online or just the fact that they're just out there talking to people and and donors and have that. You know, I it one thing that really caught my eye one time is I had a friend who got ~ a position at a a big NGO. and they got a position as ~ it was like it was like an internal communications project. person, but it was they communicate to donors.

30:57 So they will do the reports, they will have meetings, they will like, you know, basically keep them updated on those reports and all on on the progress and kind of get them, you know, excited about doing it so that they'll do it again. I think it's important to think that's not just a social media post. It is communications is all these different types of of levels. So with that said, you know, we we've talked to some of the problems about why these projects stall And we talked a little bit about how Pisces is is is trying to do things to kind of help a lot of y you know, clients or even potential clients that we've been talking to for for a number of years, how we help them through that, right? ~ we'll start off with you, Natalie. Like what like what's some of the ways that ~ especially from a a ~ communication sort of a clarity way that we can help some of these projects g either get unstuck or even prevent them from getting stuck in the first place.

31:54 For sure. So I think this comes back to a thing that's been mentioned a couple of times is that when you're an ocean leader, an ocean visionary, a researcher, or whatever, you're a specialist in what you do. You love what you do, you love sharks, you love seaweed, whatever. you don't also have to love communications. Right. Right? You don't have to be a good storyteller or a good communicator, but you have to have that as part of your like team or your project. Right. So one of the things that we really do and that I'm very proud to bring to people is to is that ability to say, hey, like keep your hands in the water. Right. Keep doing what you're doing.

32:35 ~ across the board at Pisces, we do the things you don't have capacity to do, you don't have expertise in, and we love these things. So like we love storytelling and communications. You wanna go out for six weeks and do your research project in the summer? Like Perfect. We will take care of you know the storytelling side of things, like all of that. Like the ability for us to plug into projects and understand ~ what they're doing, why they're doing it, and then turn around and tell those stories. I think is super, super valuable because you know it's it's not for everyone. It is an expertise, it is not something that should be outsourced to a student or someone who doesn't understand how to communicate effectively because there's so much on the line, right?

33:17 Yeah. Public acceptance of it, stakeholders. engagement, funding, refunding, ~ just impact in general. And, you know, scientists and ocean engineers and technologists are like fantastic at what they do, but not often great at talking about it. We're great at talking about it. You know? So so that's ~ you know a very easy way we can help people is just, you know, tell us your story. We know how to pull the stories out of people and then tell them to whatever audience ~ they're they're they're looking at depending on what a project is doing in that moment. Yeah, absolutely. And and Christine, you and I know too, like as as growing up as scientists, we're taught a specific way of communicating. yeah. Very factual, very like, this is b it's boring, it's not like it's just here's the fact.

34:02 You know. let me ask you this, ~ Chris, what have you learned in terms of the different styles of communication between science and then trying to get people interested in storytelling? Yeah, I mean scientists are excellent at communicating to other scientists. ~ often doesn't go beyond that. That's not to say it's it true not everybody. I mean, some people do have that ability, but a a lot of scientists, like you said, w we're learned right from our bachelors how to structure our communication in such a way that it can be published for other academics, or we're going to conferences and told you know, just present on your data.

34:44 Right. You know, I did X, Y, and Z to get this data. And ~ this is our next steps for the next phase of the project. Right. There there's no story there. It's kind of blah, but us as scientists are used to that going to conferences. And so that's been totally fine for us. Yeah. And we're still learning and ~ I mean that's the right crowd for it. But imagine if you if you went in and you're like, Why did I start this research? Yeah. You know? And and already set the stage of why the research is important and the next phase of the project Why is that phase going to be important?

35:25 Is that going to, you know, target a specific policymaker who could then help establish ~ your protected area or ~ start looking at different ways to protect your species that you're most interested in? The story will help there. And in particular now there's more policymakers and stakeholders joining these academic conferences. So I think, you know, being able to speak to them as well. ~ and then just you know I think it's more human connecting human to human ~ to just talk about your research as if you're having a conversation almost and not so formulated.

36:06 Right. ~ and the jargon. I mean we We love our act. love our jargon but ~ remember that not everybody is an expert in ~ what you know so try and avoid using jargon Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. ~ and then and kind of adding to that, not just from a communications point of view, but Melissa, you mentioned something at the beginning of of this episode where talked about how sometimes during a project, even though you know, funding came in on on achieving specific goals, sometimes those goals change. And that happens, right? Throughout a project, you you start to realize certain things. How does a like how do ocean leaders who are putting these projects together, how do they like allow for that evolution of those goals by still meeting their initial goals and then either developing or trying to make a case, a use case for the next goals.

37:04 Like how do they s but how do they not get distracted from those we could do this as well, but we don't have funding for that. So we don't want to move that funding from this this the original goals to these new ones. Yeah, that's a tough one. Yeah, yeah. The shiny things. It's it's hard. Yeah, I think what's most important I I would say is that transparency is key. So like if your goals have changed so dramatically that they need to be re reframed, then I think, you know, going to the funder and saying, look, this is, you know, this is what the situation is. What should we do? How can we, you know, rescope this and ~ to make sure that we're having the best impact.

37:51 but I think researchers also love concluding with we need more research. So, you know, that's also an exciting element to this. But I mean, I think like anything, if you if you think of a research project like a contract, as a consultant, you know, you can have a scope of work and then you can also get distracted by shiny new ideas and new things. But you know, as a consultant, you have to say, okay Those are all really great, but we're over here in in this lane. And so I think the same logic applies to research projects where it's like you have to be very diligent on, you know, what ~ you're trying to achieve.

38:36 ~ which is hard because you're almost trying it it's kind of like Chess, I guess. Chess or s some sort of logical game where you're trying to, you know, align things. Like you you have to be five steps ahead, even though you're, you know, back here ~ on project phase one of project one, you you know, the day that starts, you do need to think about phase two, but ~ it has to be done in a very logical way where things are still happening. Yeah. Yeah, you still have to meet the needs and then hopefully later on, you know, d you know, be able to develop on that.

39:23 Yeah. Hopefully you get funded again for that. Yeah, exactly. Which I think is where communications is a huge huge piece. And you know, w what to to add to what Kirsty was saying, ~ I do think in this as the landscape changes, it's becoming more and more competitive. So having your narrative, your story a clear, clear objective or what this project is about is more important than ever because if you're talking about your project and people don't understand mm what it means, that's it's gonna be hard to get yeah funding and ~ and partners and all that sort of stuff.

40:05 Absolutely, absolutely. Nelly have one more question for you. We've we've focused a lot on like scientists and doing projects. Well one thing I've seen over the since since I started there's a lot of people who are in business or who have been in business, say a tech business or something like that in the past, and they have come across a s a problem that they want to solve within the ocean space. You know, whether that is getting nets out like ghost nets out of the ocean or whether that's like looking at new blue Carbon and blue economy type of of systems. When you speak to people who come to you and be like, this is what I'm trying to do, what is your approach when like the like the first steps that you like the advice that you give them?

40:50 Like these are you know ocean leaders who are trying to run projects. They may not know the space in terms of conservation or necessarily the blue economy. They come from a different sort of basis, but from a communication standpoint, like I know it's just a a very general question. Everybody's unique in its own way, but what are some of the things that you see that c that kind of move across that that you may be like, okay, we're gonna steer you in this direction because you'll have more success in this way. Well I think a couple a couple of the things that I see fairly often, whether you're within the ocean sector already or or coming into it, it there's a natural sort of inclination for talking about yourself and and your own work and kind of communicating about, you know, you and your your plan, your technology, your product, your data, you, you, you, you, you. Yeah. Right. And and ~ one of the like easiest changes that That people can make across the board ~ is to flip that and talk to people, not at them.

41:58 Yeah. Right? So it's often a very simple thing, like especially if you're coming into a new industry, like you're coming, you're an engineer and you're coming into oceans because you have some great idea for you know collecting ghost gear or whatever. it's starting with, well, how is what you're trying to do going to help? the people you're talking to or the blue economy or the ocean, right? So instead of it being you're here doing this because you love this it's I'm we're here to do this for you for this reason, for the ocean. and I call that flipping the narrative. So it's just taking our like sort of we're all comfortable talking about ourselves and our own work, right? That's why we get lost in jargon and stuff like that 'cause we're what do you mean you don't know what that means?

42:42 ~ So it's it's a very simple thing to do that's actually kinda hard in practice because you do have to stop and go, Wait a minute, like I'm you know, it's like it's like when you have a friend and all they do is talk about themselves and you're Yeah. Right. I don't care. Like after a certain point you don't care. And it's the same in in communications. It's if you come in and you're just talking about you and your business, it's very hard for people to stay engaged and if you're in a new sector, new business, you know, startups especially. This is a it's a big one. It's it's hard to hard to stand out and hard to get a footing going in a in a new kind of space. But if you can show up and say, Here's how what we're doing helps you ~ it makes a big, big, big difference. So that's probably nine times out of ten.

43:26 like the first piece of advice you give to people and and it's like a big eye opener usually, right? 'Cause it's simple but just listen a lot of the times. And sometimes and you can get that you know, what you're trying to do, you might be able to really cater it towards the needs of who you're talking to and and the the people that you're talking to. It's great. Great first episode, everybody. This is our first episode. ~ you know, I think this is what we're gonna be putting out ~ a lot in in the future. ~ and we're gonna be looking at ocean projects. We're gonna be speaking to some of our past clients or even current clients in terms of like their challenges that they've met and they've been able to overcome, but also just talking about just ocean projects in in general and talking about some of the struggles that ocean leaders get.

44:12 Hopefully we can provide value in people who if you have your own ocean project or you're trying to by being a leader in the space, we'd be more than happy to ~ be able to have that conversation or even at least you'd be able to listen to us and and be able to hear that. And if you want more information from us, we'll put in the show notes you can contact us or you can go to PiscesOceans.ca and be able to ~ to connect with us there. But every thank you everybody. Appreciate it. First episode in the in the in the bag and we're ready to go to episode two. We got a couple of episodes coming out ~ ~ we're probably gonna put these out bi-weekly. ~ and so we're gonna be talking about a project lifecycle and what that looks like.

44:52 ~ and then we're gonna be hopefully having one of our clients on and and and talk more about communications and everything like that. So subscribe, follow whatever app you're on, and we'd love to hear from you in the future. So thank you. Well. Alright, everybody, to the entire Pisces team, Melissa, Natalie, and Kirsty and myself, congratulations. We've got our first podcast together out, wrapped up, and we did a great job, I think. Let us know how we did. Did you enjoy the podcast? Do you do you identify with some of the things that we've talked about in that? If you're not a client of ours and you want to and you're thinking about working with us or figuring out how to work with us, what I would recommend is we you go over to PiscesOceans.ca and and you sign up to strengthen your project.

45:39 It'll take you through a Wayfinder and it'll be like a way to help how we can help and just direct us how we can help you. And then we'll have an in-person or virtual call and we'll discuss your project and where we can help out. And then hopefully we can work together at some point soon. So I think it's it's really great. You know, some of the some of the things that are coming up next episode, we're doing a bi weekly. So the next in two weeks Natalie and I are going to be talking about communications and why it's so important to have communications start at the beginning of your ocean project for two major reasons. So I can't wait to talk about that. And of course, if you don't want to miss that episode with Natalie and I, you can subscribe or follow on your favorite podcast app.

46:20 And of course, you can reach out to us and let's let us know how you feel. And we'd love to hear your feedback. So just you know, you can hit us up on LinkedIn if you go to the Pisces page. ~ or we'll put our links in the show notes down below and then you can ~ you can contact us. But I want to thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the Ocean Leader Podcast, a Pisces podcast. Very excited to start this journey ~ with Pisces ~ as well as the podcast and to get to know you more. So give us send us your feedback, what you want us to tackle, what you're what the challenges you're facing. We'd love to hear you from you and from the Pisces team and I myself, Andrew Lewin. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a great day and happy conservation.