Why Do Ocean Conservation Projects Fail? (And How to Fix Them)

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everybody, welcome to the first episode of
the Ocean Leaders Podcast,

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a Pisces Oceans podcast. I am your host,

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Andrew Lewin. For today, I am the Ocean
Communications Manager at Pisces Oceans.

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I have a history of podcasting,

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if you don't recognize my voice,

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I host the How to Protect the Ocean
podcast.

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And I co-host the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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So I have a history, a long-running
history of doing podcasts for the
environment.

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And when I joined the team as the Ocean
Communications Manager for Pisces in
April,

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the first thing that ~ the co-CEOs and I
decided to do,

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~ it was like, hey, let's plan out a
podcast for Pisces so that we

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can help ocean projects succeed and for
ocean leaders like you to make sure that

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those projects have a positive impact on
the ocean,

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just like you set out to do.

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so I'm very excited that this is our first
episode.

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We have a great episode for you today,

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and it really functions as two things.

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One is to introduce the team. So you have
our co CEOs,

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Melissa Weber and Natalie Gilson,

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and our ocean project manager,

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Kirsty Burnett, and of course myself.

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We are talking about one of the topics
that we've seen happen a lot,

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a lot, a lot. And we tackle the big
questions why do ocean projects stall?

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It's a question like heard.

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often from past and future clients doing
ocean projects and who want to succeed.

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We don't want these projects to stall.

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We help our clients to make sure that they
get over the hump of of being stalled

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and making sure that we get there when
they know.

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And this is what we do we help our clients
make sure those projects succeed

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and not stall. So we're talking about some
of the examples that we've seen over

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the past, whether they're clients that
would first come to us or we've seen just

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observed in our regularly scheduled daily
lives.

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but we are really here to have that
conversation and talk from different

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perspectives. ~ you know, what we do.

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And Pisces, that's what we do is we help
ocean leaders get their ocean projects
over

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that hump to make sure that you can have
that ocean impact through science,

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through strategy, and through story.

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It's what we do, it's what we love to do.

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So let's start with the first episode the
team.

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Talking all four of each other in person,

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which doesn't happen often because we're
all remote.

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We were in person for the HTO conference.

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We decided to sit down and enjoy our time.

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~ and so here is the conversation ocean
project stalling with Melissa Weber,

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Natalie Gilson, Kirsti Burnett,

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and myself. Enjoy, and I'll talk to you
after.

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All right, everybody. Welcome to the Ocean
Leaders Podcast,

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a Pisces podcast. I am very, very happy
and excited today to be joined

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by the Pisces team. And we're gonna
introduce everybody in just a second.

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But today we're gonna be talking a little
introduction of who we are and

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why we do what we do, but we're also gonna
be talking about

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why ocean projects stall. That's the big
question that we have been seeing

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a l from a lot of people around all some
of our

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our past clients, our future clients,

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people we've been talking to who are doing
ocean projects that want

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to be successful and we want to help them
be successful and that's what we do here.

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So this is what we're gonna be talking
about today.

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So it's gonna be a lot of fun.

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But first what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna
introduce everybody.

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~ well they'll allow them to introduce
ourselves.

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So Melissa, let's start with you.

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Sure. So yeah, my name is Melissa Weaver.

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I'm the co CEO of Pisces. My ocean journey
is maybe a little unconventional.

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I'm not a marine biologist. I'm not a
diver.

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And I love the ocean from land.

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~ But my journey really started when I was
a kid.

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I was always super fascinated by the
ocean,

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and Flipper was one of my favorite movies
ever.

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I loved dolphins, but being landlocked in
Ontario.

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Ontario, I never really saw that as a
career path.

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So for me, I started university with some
big dreams.

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I actually started in international
development.

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I thought that was gonna be my pathway to
changing the world.

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And then I realized quickly that that's
all about economics,

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and that's not really that interesting for
me.

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So I pivoted. ~

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You know, I was in Ottawa at the
University of Ottawa and I pivoted to
geography.

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~ and that's where I you know,

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found my passion for the environment and
eventually in oceans.

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~ during my PhD I started working with ~
communities in Nunavut.

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on ~ the impacts of shipping, marine
tourism,

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all that sort of stuff. And then around
the same time I found myself

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~ traveling to the Dominican Republic.

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I met my husband and now I live on an
island.

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So the ocean is a huge, huge part of my
life.

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And my desire to protect it is really,

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you know, comes from a place that it's
connected to everything.

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~ everything we do, our economy,

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our livelihood, ~ and having a daughter
now,

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it's it's important for our future.

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So ~ yeah, that's my my journey.

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I love it. Great story. I love it.

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~ Natalie, how about yourself?

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Sure. So hi, I'm Natalie Gilson.

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I'm the other co-CEO of Pisces.

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~ and much like Melissa, my journey into
oceans is not conventional at all.

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I've also not started out as a marine
biologist or anything in

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the sort of traditional sphere of oceans.

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~ but I have always always been connected
to the ocean.

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It's been part of my identity ~ all the
way back as far as I can remember,

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because actually my very first memory is
even.

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Of the ocean, and I still remember it
super super clearly.

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I think I was probably two and a half,

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three years old, and my family were out on
the West Coast,

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Canada's West Coast, and we were we were
kayaking.

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My my dad's a kayak guide, so my dad was
kayaking,

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I was in a canoe with my mom. ~ and I
remember sitting up and looking

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out over the edge of this canoe on this
like typical West Coast foggy morning,

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and I saw something pop up out of the
water,

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and I had no idea what it was,

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but it was staring at me.

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And you know my two-year-old self is like,

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What is that? It's amazing. And so I'm
staring back in it.

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We're having a steering contest.

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And ~ I know now that it was a harbor
seal.

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But in that moment it was just like
there's this mysterious creature from

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the depths of this mysterious ocean and
and I was hooked.

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So

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I grew up inland in Calgary, but ~ every
summer was characterized for me

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by trips to the west coast, paddling with
my family,

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camping, that kind of stuff, tide pool
exploring,

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getting to check out all the cool
creatures,

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from starfish to you know, everything,

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everything. And it's just always,

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always stuck with me. ~ however,

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I never thought that the ocean was a
viable career path for me because sciences
were

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not really my not really my thing.

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I'm very creative, artistic person and I

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I kind of wanted to pursue that a little
bit.

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~ so I went into archaeology, which has
nothing to do with creativity,

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but but that's where life took me and I
had a great first career

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as an archaeologist and then did come back
to my creative self.

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Started a creative business of my own
around ten years ago.

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did a bunch of years in in communication
strategy,

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brand strategy, marketing design,

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~ visual storytelling, that kind of stuff
in the sustainability sphere.

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~ and then had an opportunity in 2023 to

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pivot what I was doing. ~ I I realized
that the sustainability sphere

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was was not a niche. for me, it was too
big to really play in.

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But I at the same time had a realization
that the ocean industry

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was not being supported by the creative
communications industry in the

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way that it needs to be because in oceans
it's not business as usual.

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We can't take marketing practices from
outside of the sector.

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And expect them to work because we're not
just selling products,

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we're not just selling services in this
industry,

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we're selling purpose and impact and
change.

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And so the techniques to do that are
different.

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So I was, I joined Pisces in 2023 and
finally have found where I belong,

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kind of at this gap or intersection,

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sorry, between communications and
storytelling and my lifelong passion

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for the ocean.

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Love it.

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I love it. It's a great story.

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How about you, Christy?

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Yeah, so

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hi, I'm Kirsty Burnett. I am an ocean
project manager here at Pisces.

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~ and I guess my story, unlike Melissa and
Natalie,

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is a little bit more conventional.

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~ I grew up near the ocean. I grew up on
the eastern shore of Nova Scotia,

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so Nova Scotia is where we are
headquartered.

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~ and

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You know, weekends for me as a child were
spent at the beach

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and maybe quite annoyingly for my parents
collecting jellyfish from

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the water and bringing them over to them
to to show and ~ why why don't

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you wanna pick

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They're squishy, they're fun, and yeah,

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just playing in the waves and you know,

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always having sandy feet and salt in my
hair and ~ yeah,

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I think it just i it instilled that love
of the ocean in me at such

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an early age and ~ my

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parents have drawings from me from when
I'm,

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you know, five, six, seven years old of
different ocean creatures and ocean
scenes.

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And ~ a friend's parent actually messaged
me the other day on Facebook like,

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hey, I have some artwork from you from
elementary school.

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It's this Play-Doh Clay type shark thing.

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Do you want it? And I'm like, no,

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thank you, but that's so funny.

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That's so cool. yeah, so

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I I I think I just knew. I always wanted
to to do something with

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the ocean and I loved documentaries,

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in particular Sharkwater is the one that
really like

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drew me in and connected me to the ocean.

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I was like, yeah, the ocean, but sharks.

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Make it sharks. and so I thought,

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you know, science was gonna be the route
for me.

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So I stayed in Nova Scotia, got my
bachelor's of science in marine biology
from

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Dalhousie University, ~ got to learn under
some fantastic researchers,

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loved my journey there. ~ but

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ended my bachelor's still not really
knowing if science was what I wanted

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to do or what exactly I wanted to do.

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So decided, hey, why not work in the ocean
for a bit?

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So moved to Saint Martin in the Caribbean
and worked as a dive master ~

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for for a bit, for about a year and a bit,

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and got to introduce other people to the
ocean and have them experience everything

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that I love and teach them a little bit
about the the animals that I came to

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to grow and know during my time as a
bachelor's student at DAO.

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But it still didn't feel quite like the
right fit for me.

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So I did eventually come back to Nova
Scotia.

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Where I met my now husband and he is
originally from Germany.

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So once he finished up with his PhD at
Dalhousie,

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we took off to Germany where I did my
master's.

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also in marine biology. Okay

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Yeah.

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guys. ~ unfortunately, you know,

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six months into my journey in Germany,

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COVID hit, so we all remember how those
times could be.

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So I didn't get to experience Europe in
the way I would have liked,

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and

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I think it really maybe it made me miss
Nova Scotia more than I would have

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had there not have been a global p global
pandemic.

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But, you know, when I finished my masters,

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I was like, you know what, like I I need
to go back to Nova Scotia.

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I need to go back to the ocean.

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and see what opportunities were for me
there.

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And you know, long story short,

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event eventually after moving back,

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I ended up at Pisces and I really,

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really feel like home.

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with this organization and ~

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It's not doing the science, but it's
helping the science succeed.

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And I really think that was the missing
piece of the puzzle for me.

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Like I was doing the science, but the
science wasn't going anywhere.

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And being with Pisces and being with a a
team of experts that

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can really help researchers, academics,

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industry with their ideas and their ocean
projects,

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whatever it may be, succeed to the next
step.

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~ yeah. That's a little about

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Yeah.

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me and how I ended up at Pisces.

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That great story.

231
00:12:53,257 --> 00:12:57,378
I I I I definitely feel what you're saying
there at the at the end there where we're

232
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you know, we want science to get to the
next level.

233
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We want conservation to get to the next
level.

234
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that's that's sort of how I end up in with
my path.

235
00:13:05,573 --> 00:13:08,074
You know, I growing up as a marine
biologist,

236
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~ you know, you always want to be a marine
biologist growing up Ontario just like

237
00:13:11,916 --> 00:13:17,949
you, Melissa, not far from from you and
and and ~ really realizing what

238
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I wanted to do at that point in time.

239
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It's just that stubbornness of like always
wanting to do marine biology.

240
00:13:22,111 --> 00:13:24,322
No matter where I lived, and that's what I
was going to do.

241
00:13:24,322 --> 00:13:26,964
You know, went did my undergrad at
University of Guelph,

242
00:13:26,964 --> 00:13:29,966
go work for a little bit, come back home,

243
00:13:29,966 --> 00:13:35,830
~ go out to Acadia University in Wolfville
and live in Halifax and you know work

244
00:13:35,830 --> 00:13:38,602
on marine protected areas and then back to
Ontario,

245
00:13:38,602 --> 00:13:42,695
went. And so, you know, trying to navigate
being a marine biologist in Ontario,

246
00:13:42,695 --> 00:13:45,337
Canada was a difficult thing to say the
least.

247
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Found some jobs, worked on the Great
Lakes,

248
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you know, got a great some great
experience.

249
00:13:49,699 --> 00:13:52,001
and then I went to a conference.

250
00:13:52,001 --> 00:13:54,845
conference. I was kind of consulting on my
own for a bit and I went

251
00:13:54,845 --> 00:13:57,208
to a conference in at the University of
PEI.

252
00:13:57,208 --> 00:14:00,623
It was Coastal Zone Canada. And one of the
somebody said something that really

253
00:14:00,623 --> 00:14:02,018
resonated with me is like

254
00:14:02,237 --> 00:14:04,608
We're all we're here, we're all
scientists,

255
00:14:04,608 --> 00:14:06,589
conservationists, coastal practitioners,

256
00:14:06,589 --> 00:14:09,711
engineers and so forth, and we're all
preaching to each other.

257
00:14:09,711 --> 00:14:11,091
We're sharing information to each other,

258
00:14:11,091 --> 00:14:13,992
we're preaching to the choir that we need
help.

259
00:14:13,992 --> 00:14:17,124
We need to up conservation, we need to
increase it,

260
00:14:17,124 --> 00:14:21,876
we need to scale it, ~ we need businesses
to get involved and and investment

261
00:14:21,876 --> 00:14:26,518
to be made. And it was it was interesting
because like there was nobody from

262
00:14:26,518 --> 00:14:29,003
the public that was there except for one
session,

263
00:14:29,003 --> 00:14:32,141
a guy from the guy from PI came out.

264
00:14:32,181 --> 00:14:37,284
He retired and and was bought a like his
dream house on

265
00:14:37,565 --> 00:14:41,767
the the coastline and he's like I wanted
to look out every morning

266
00:14:41,767 --> 00:14:43,489
and see blue water and now it's green.

267
00:14:43,489 --> 00:14:46,150
Why is it green? And it was a simple
question,

268
00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:49,593
right? That a lot of people probably feel
in and around that area.

269
00:14:49,593 --> 00:14:51,844
And we answered it there, and he's like,

270
00:14:51,844 --> 00:14:53,438
Great. He's like, when does this get held?

271
00:14:53,438 --> 00:14:56,307
Is this like a weekly thing? It was a it
was a yearly conference.

272
00:14:56,307 --> 00:14:58,208
And then he's like, we need more of this.

273
00:14:58,208 --> 00:15:01,080
We need more people talking to ~ you know,

274
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:02,080
to to just the the

275
00:15:02,121 --> 00:15:04,242
Average citizen that that needs to know.

276
00:15:04,242 --> 00:15:09,916
And ~ and that kind of ~ sort of inspired
me to start doing more science

277
00:15:09,916 --> 00:15:14,639
communication to the public. And that kind
of catapulted my journey into science

278
00:15:14,639 --> 00:15:18,632
communication. ~ and I started a lot of it
on my own because I couldn't get

279
00:15:18,632 --> 00:15:21,364
a job in communication because back then
they didn't really have a

280
00:15:21,364 --> 00:15:22,865
lot of science communication positions,

281
00:15:22,865 --> 00:15:25,447
and the ones that they did, I didn't have
any experience.

282
00:15:25,447 --> 00:15:31,701
I was a scientist, and so I I I got my own
experience through blogging,

283
00:15:31,701 --> 00:15:32,701
through.

284
00:15:32,001 --> 00:15:35,242
YouTube videos and then I found podcasting
as my true passion,

285
00:15:35,242 --> 00:15:36,902
which obviously has led to here.

286
00:15:36,902 --> 00:15:40,233
~ which really did lead to here because
Natalie and I met through

287
00:15:40,233 --> 00:15:42,623
the podcast and then I to found out about
Pisces,

288
00:15:42,623 --> 00:15:45,544
and then when you joined Pisces and ~ you
know,

289
00:15:45,544 --> 00:15:47,924
and and when you and Melissa took over
Pisces,

290
00:15:47,924 --> 00:15:52,465
it just made sense to bring me on and and
it to be honest,

291
00:15:52,465 --> 00:15:54,396
it's it's a dream job, you know,

292
00:15:54,396 --> 00:15:56,966
and and it's ~ just as Chrissy said,

293
00:15:56,966 --> 00:15:59,027
it's really nice to see

294
00:16:00,281 --> 00:16:03,653
science and conservation projects hit that
next level.

295
00:16:03,653 --> 00:16:05,904
You know, let next level of funding,

296
00:16:05,904 --> 00:16:10,726
next level of expansion, next level of
communication and getting out to the
oceans.

297
00:16:10,726 --> 00:16:16,178
And we're seeing this need for project
management capabilities,

298
00:16:16,178 --> 00:16:17,599
grant management capabilities,

299
00:16:17,599 --> 00:16:21,381
communication strategies and how do they
get out there beyond just doing

300
00:16:21,381 --> 00:16:23,502
it themselves, 'cause let's be honest,

301
00:16:23,502 --> 00:16:26,123
people want to do the science but they
want to do the conservation.

302
00:16:26,123 --> 00:16:27,964
It's it's a lot of work to do everything
else.

303
00:16:27,964 --> 00:16:29,725
And I feel like this is where Pisces

304
00:16:30,145 --> 00:16:35,099
really excels in that aspect. So ~ and I
know I'm preaching to the choir right here

305
00:16:35,099 --> 00:16:36,560
around this table that we're doing this,

306
00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:37,791
but for those of you listening,

307
00:16:37,791 --> 00:16:41,184
that's sort of w you know, like what we do
here at Pisces,

308
00:16:41,184 --> 00:16:45,288
right? We we team up, we collaborate and
we partner and we and we help other people

309
00:16:45,288 --> 00:16:46,489
get to the what they want to do.

310
00:16:46,489 --> 00:16:48,290
It's which fulfills us for sure.

311
00:16:48,290 --> 00:16:50,862
~ but speaking of which in terms of
projects,

312
00:16:50,862 --> 00:16:51,862
right

313
00:16:51,869 --> 00:16:56,051
So yeah, we see a lot of projects that do
some some projects do really well.

314
00:16:56,051 --> 00:16:58,660
But we talk we talk to a lot of
organizations,

315
00:16:58,660 --> 00:17:03,745
you know, collaborations from academic
institutions and for profit companies
where

316
00:17:03,745 --> 00:17:05,495
their projects just kinda halt.

317
00:17:05,495 --> 00:17:08,557
You know, they they they just stall and we
don't and they don't know

318
00:17:08,557 --> 00:17:13,629
why or they they've come up to a bit of a
a head when it comes to g getting

319
00:17:13,629 --> 00:17:18,259
it to the next level, whether it's a
funding ~ thing or whether it's ~

320
00:17:18,291 --> 00:17:21,593
a a project management thing or it's just
a capacity thing.

321
00:17:21,993 --> 00:17:25,025
That's something that that we see quite a
bit with a lot of projects,

322
00:17:25,025 --> 00:17:26,826
especially here in Canada and and beyond.

323
00:17:26,826 --> 00:17:30,089
~ I've seen it through you know the the
How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

324
00:17:30,089 --> 00:17:32,360
When I talk to people, I hear that about
the struggles.

325
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:36,623
~ and so like I what we what I'd like to
do for all of us is just kind

326
00:17:36,623 --> 00:17:40,005
of talk about why these projects stall,

327
00:17:40,005 --> 00:17:42,337
right? And and what really happens.

328
00:17:42,337 --> 00:17:44,878
So Melissa, we'll start we'll start with
you because you are

329
00:17:44,878 --> 00:17:46,870
the project manager extraordinaire.

330
00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:50,632
you know what what is some of the things
like you know,

331
00:17:50,632 --> 00:17:51,713
what's the moment.

332
00:17:51,723 --> 00:17:55,910
in like in a in a ocean project where y
you most often s see things kinda

333
00:17:55,910 --> 00:17:56,910
go a little sideways.

334
00:17:58,439 --> 00:18:01,700
Yeah, that's a good question. I think a
lot of times it's,

335
00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:06,682
you know, everyone the sor should say
projects start off strong.

336
00:18:06,682 --> 00:18:09,184
In the beginning, everything, everyone's
excited,

337
00:18:09,184 --> 00:18:13,785
the vision is coming to life, everyone's
invested.

338
00:18:13,785 --> 00:18:17,707
Then you get, you know, a little bit
further down the road

339
00:18:17,707 --> 00:18:21,269
and new ideas emerge.

340
00:18:21,269 --> 00:18:24,790
Students move on,

341
00:18:24,790 --> 00:18:26,091
employees move on.

342
00:18:27,251 --> 00:18:31,836
And then that's where things start to I
don't want to say unravel,

343
00:18:31,836 --> 00:18:33,878
but you know, momentum stalls.

344
00:18:34,685 --> 00:18:38,397
And I think the reason for that is is
couple there's a couple reasons,

345
00:18:38,397 --> 00:18:42,439
but one of them, of course, is capacity as
ocean leaders,

346
00:18:42,439 --> 00:18:49,002
ocean visionaries. There are more tasks in
a day than there are times.

347
00:18:49,002 --> 00:18:52,923
And there's also, you know, we're not all
experts at everything.

348
00:18:52,923 --> 00:18:57,306
If you have a PhD, you're an academic,

349
00:18:57,306 --> 00:18:59,627
you're an ocean leader, you're a CEO,

350
00:18:59,627 --> 00:19:04,609
your expertise is very niche. And you
probably don't want to spend

351
00:19:04,649 --> 00:19:11,211
your day ~ writing reports on your your
funding or doing some of those things that

352
00:19:11,211 --> 00:19:13,952
maybe don't fall into your into your zone.

353
00:19:13,952 --> 00:19:19,684
But I think the other interesting piece is
that ~ by nature,

354
00:19:19,684 --> 00:19:21,854
especially academic institutions,

355
00:19:21,854 --> 00:19:24,275
the way they're set up

356
00:19:24,765 --> 00:19:28,178
doesn't allow for consistency amongst
projects.

357
00:19:28,178 --> 00:19:31,220
So if you think about funding life cycles,

358
00:19:31,220 --> 00:19:36,685
funding life cycles are often shorter than
project needs or

359
00:19:36,945 --> 00:19:41,709
or the the the topic at hand. But also
then when you layer in,

360
00:19:41,709 --> 00:19:43,890
you know, you have a four year project

361
00:19:44,659 --> 00:19:46,200
you're bringing in master students,

362
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,141
they're only there for two years.

363
00:19:48,141 --> 00:19:53,635
So, you know, that consistency amongst the
project life cycle i

364
00:19:53,635 --> 00:19:57,708
is hard for for a lot of ~ projects,

365
00:19:57,708 --> 00:20:00,250
not necessarily just in academia,

366
00:20:00,250 --> 00:20:01,831
but in industry as well. You know,

367
00:20:01,831 --> 00:20:08,376
people ~ move on, especially I would say
in more junior positions when

368
00:20:08,376 --> 00:20:11,338
you're, you know, you have funding and and
stuff like that.

369
00:20:11,338 --> 00:20:12,338
So

370
00:20:12,509 --> 00:20:18,214
I think that's really the the advantage
that that Pisces ~ has is that we're

371
00:20:18,214 --> 00:20:21,067
a neutral we're a neutral party as well.

372
00:20:21,067 --> 00:20:22,368
Yeah. You know, we can come in,

373
00:20:22,368 --> 00:20:24,460
we can provide that consistency.

374
00:20:24,460 --> 00:20:29,515
but we can also we're on bias.

375
00:20:29,515 --> 00:20:34,629
So we can talk to different partners in a
way that ~ you know,

376
00:20:34,629 --> 00:20:36,541
sometimes you can't have those
conversations.

377
00:20:36,541 --> 00:20:37,802
Right. Yeah.

378
00:20:38,151 --> 00:20:40,252
Yeah. I I've seen that a lot where,

379
00:20:40,252 --> 00:20:45,805
you know, you s you see that turnover
effect in in in a lot of these groups,

380
00:20:45,805 --> 00:20:52,078
especially losing students or you see even
the funding runs out before

381
00:20:52,078 --> 00:20:56,089
the project can be actually completed or
it needs extra funding later on,

382
00:20:56,089 --> 00:20:58,531
knowing that it needs extra funding and
it's just not getting it

383
00:20:58,531 --> 00:21:03,043
or or something like that. That can be
like a really big hindrance.

384
00:21:03,043 --> 00:21:04,637
And especially with those junior
positions,

385
00:21:04,637 --> 00:21:07,885
those student positions, I feel like
that's where a lot of the work

386
00:21:08,145 --> 00:21:11,727
Like the grunt work gets done where like
the the stuff that really takes

387
00:21:11,727 --> 00:21:14,319
a long time kind of gets done and then it
get it gets pushed up

388
00:21:14,319 --> 00:21:17,201
the ladder to professors or whoever's in
charge,

389
00:21:17,201 --> 00:21:20,343
like PIs who are in charge to kind of go
over it and make sure that everything

390
00:21:20,343 --> 00:21:24,856
is is done well. it's a it's a hard like
it's it you you know you want

391
00:21:24,856 --> 00:21:27,258
the students to come in, you want them to
do the work.

392
00:21:27,258 --> 00:21:29,742
Obviously they're gonna go out depending
on how long the project is

393
00:21:29,742 --> 00:21:31,901
and where they come in from that
perspective.

394
00:21:31,901 --> 00:21:34,583
These are graduate students and and
undergraduate students,

395
00:21:34,583 --> 00:21:37,955
but from a like ~ how do how do people

396
00:21:38,045 --> 00:21:39,796
plan for that? Like f you know,

397
00:21:39,796 --> 00:21:41,076
like th those who are in charge,

398
00:21:41,076 --> 00:21:43,427
whether it's a lab manager, a project
manager,

399
00:21:43,427 --> 00:21:46,156
~ and they see these students come in,

400
00:21:46,156 --> 00:21:50,029
how do they plan to ensure that there's
continuity,

401
00:21:50,029 --> 00:21:53,590
you know, going forward if there if
somebody new comes in or there's some
'cause

402
00:21:53,645 --> 00:21:55,701
it's it's gonna happen. There's gonna be
turnover,

403
00:21:55,701 --> 00:21:58,062
whether it's a academic institution,

404
00:21:58,062 --> 00:22:00,833
whether it's a nonprofit, whether it's a
for a for profit company,

405
00:22:00,833 --> 00:22:05,344
how do you have that that PI kind of like
go forward and and look forward

406
00:22:05,344 --> 00:22:06,775
to make sure that there's continuity?

407
00:22:07,495 --> 00:22:09,016
Yeah, that's a great question.

408
00:22:09,016 --> 00:22:14,958
I think I would roll it back a little bit
and I think one of the key things,

409
00:22:14,958 --> 00:22:17,760
which is really hard to do, when you're in
the proposal phase,

410
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:22,592
you have you know, you're mapping out what
the what the project is gonna look like,

411
00:22:22,592 --> 00:22:24,083
what your budget's gonna look like.

412
00:22:24,677 --> 00:22:27,168
And of course, you're a visionary,

413
00:22:27,168 --> 00:22:29,549
big ideas, you have a grand vision.

414
00:22:29,549 --> 00:22:35,692
But you almost need to put on the glasses
of what is actually realistic

415
00:22:35,692 --> 00:22:38,533
and what can we achieve in these four
years?

416
00:22:38,533 --> 00:22:41,805
And then make sure that your budget aligns
with that.

417
00:22:41,805 --> 00:22:46,237
Because sometimes what I see is that ~
especially with the budget piece,

418
00:22:46,237 --> 00:22:49,158
it's really hard to plan for the future.

419
00:22:49,158 --> 00:22:53,380
Cause sometimes the the lag time between
when you're submitting a proposal

420
00:22:53,541 --> 00:22:54,561
and when it actually gets a

421
00:22:55,181 --> 00:22:57,403
I mean it could be ~ up to a year.

422
00:22:57,403 --> 00:23:01,336
And by that time, you know, the world
could be a different place like

423
00:23:01,336 --> 00:23:06,419
we saw with COVID. Yeah. so there is that
balance between what did I say

424
00:23:06,419 --> 00:23:10,002
I was gonna do, what is the reality of the
situation now,

425
00:23:10,002 --> 00:23:12,253
and and making sure that you're you're
meeting that.

426
00:23:12,253 --> 00:23:13,914
~ so

427
00:23:14,897 --> 00:23:19,249
Yeah, I think it's really important to to
consider that when you're especially

428
00:23:19,249 --> 00:23:22,121
in your budget to make sure that you've
you know,

429
00:23:22,121 --> 00:23:26,364
you've got money kind of across the years
to ensure that continuity.

430
00:23:26,364 --> 00:23:29,375
So you know, if you're gonna have master
students,

431
00:23:29,375 --> 00:23:31,596
make sure that they overlap so that
they're,

432
00:23:31,596 --> 00:23:35,319
you know, kind of passing passing
knowledge along.

433
00:23:35,319 --> 00:23:38,200
Yeah. Or same with like employees,

434
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,603
~ you know, making sure that there's one
champion of the project who's

435
00:23:43,583 --> 00:23:46,315
Who's there and who knows how to talk
about the project,

436
00:23:46,315 --> 00:23:49,096
knows how to share with with the team,

437
00:23:49,096 --> 00:23:51,288
whether whether it's the same people
throughout,

438
00:23:51,288 --> 00:23:54,209
or yeah, whether you like we talked about
it the turnover.

439
00:23:54,209 --> 00:24:00,333
But yeah, I think making sure that that
you've got buffers in in different areas,

440
00:24:00,333 --> 00:24:02,765
buffers in your timeline, buffers in your
budget,

441
00:24:02,765 --> 00:24:08,518
so not ~ you know, not making your budget
in year one too heavy because

442
00:24:09,373 --> 00:24:10,435
Yep. ~

443
00:24:10,025 --> 00:24:11,025
You know, things

444
00:24:10,827 --> 00:24:14,445
take time to get going and and you don't
want to leave money on the table.

445
00:24:14,791 --> 00:24:16,642
Absolutely, absolutely. ~ Kirsty,

446
00:24:16,642 --> 00:24:18,003
going into the project management,

447
00:24:18,003 --> 00:24:21,494
'cause you also specialize in in in
managing in managing projects and

448
00:24:21,494 --> 00:24:25,296
you have a background in shark like shark
research and and in shark biology.

449
00:24:25,296 --> 00:24:30,278
you and I have seen this happen quite a
bit with shark projects,

450
00:24:30,278 --> 00:24:34,680
you know, starting with grand sort of ~
goals and and you know,

451
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,522
l as we know sharks, we don't know as much
as we think about sharks,

452
00:24:38,522 --> 00:24:40,103
especially with all the different species.

453
00:24:40,103 --> 00:24:42,954
What I think we're looking at when you
include skates and rays

454
00:24:42,954 --> 00:24:44,695
and chimeras over twelve hundred.

455
00:24:44,715 --> 00:24:49,401
species and counting. what do what have
you seen in your experience with

456
00:24:49,401 --> 00:24:53,435
a lot of the shark projects happen and
then and why do some of those stall

457
00:24:53,435 --> 00:24:55,878
or some of those kind of go a little
sideways?

458
00:24:56,179 --> 00:24:58,660
I mean it's not just shark projects.

459
00:24:58,653 --> 00:24:59,653
Right.

460
00:24:58,660 --> 00:24:59,660
I

461
00:24:59,170 --> 00:25:01,750
it's everything. It's science in general,

462
00:25:01,750 --> 00:25:06,464
i industry. If you if you specialize in
something and you're an expert

463
00:25:06,464 --> 00:25:07,984
in something that's very niche,

464
00:25:07,984 --> 00:25:10,616
presumably you also have a passion for it.

465
00:25:10,616 --> 00:25:14,548
~ and then that is what you want to focus
on.

466
00:25:14,548 --> 00:25:19,910
And everybody wants what they're doing to
have an ocean impact.

467
00:25:19,910 --> 00:25:25,553
But realistically is it? Like is it
aligning with what stakeholders

468
00:25:26,213 --> 00:25:33,018
need to, you know, investigate if they can
put a wind park in a certain area?

469
00:25:33,018 --> 00:25:38,251
~ can a policymaker actually use your data
or your piece

470
00:25:38,251 --> 00:25:44,545
of technology to help establish ~ like a
protected species or a protected area?

471
00:25:44,545 --> 00:25:48,468
So it's it's really you want to do the
research because you love the animal

472
00:25:48,468 --> 00:25:50,950
or you love a sp a piece of technology,

473
00:25:50,950 --> 00:25:54,832
but how can we bridge that gap between

474
00:25:56,033 --> 00:25:59,936
Scientific research into real world
application.

475
00:25:59,936 --> 00:26:02,527
And I think that that's where it really
stalls.

476
00:26:02,527 --> 00:26:06,870
And you know, when if you're applying for
funding,

477
00:26:06,870 --> 00:26:10,473
it's something that you need to be aware
of because you need to have that story

478
00:26:10,473 --> 00:26:14,245
piece, which I'm sure Natalie will be able
to talk more about.

479
00:26:14,245 --> 00:26:20,469
yeah, but but really like you need to show
why your research matters

480
00:26:20,489 --> 00:26:25,373
to more than just you as an individual or
or you as a lab or you as a company.

481
00:26:25,373 --> 00:26:26,373
What is

482
00:26:25,983 --> 00:26:30,165
the real world application for what you're
doing because that's

483
00:26:30,165 --> 00:26:31,896
how projects are gonna succeed.

484
00:26:31,896 --> 00:26:37,299
That's how products are are gonna get
funded or or make money or

485
00:26:37,299 --> 00:26:39,630
or whatever your path is or whatever
you're working on.

486
00:26:39,630 --> 00:26:42,361
Yeah. The real world application.

487
00:26:42,361 --> 00:26:46,363
And that's where it stalls people are not
able to easily bridge that gap.

488
00:26:46,363 --> 00:26:49,645
And ~ it was along the lines of what
Melissa was saying,

489
00:26:49,645 --> 00:26:53,567
we can come in unbiased ~ and help

490
00:26:54,441 --> 00:26:58,075
Help projects, people, principal
investigators figure it out.

491
00:26:58,075 --> 00:26:59,797
Yeah. Yeah. That's what we love doing.

492
00:27:00,073 --> 00:27:01,155
That's absolutely

493
00:27:01,155 --> 00:27:04,610
~ now I I got a bit of a different
question for you.

494
00:27:04,610 --> 00:27:09,869
what's the thing project leaders don't
realize they're underestimating and

495
00:27:09,869 --> 00:27:11,161
why is it communications?

496
00:27:11,921 --> 00:27:17,766
~ yeah. Yeah, communications. Well nobody
ever thinks the first thing

497
00:27:17,766 --> 00:27:19,971
I'm gonna spend my money on is
communications.

498
00:27:20,391 --> 00:27:21,391
Ever.

499
00:27:21,959 --> 00:27:26,081
And and in reality, like some of what
Kirsty's saying there and and Melissa too,

500
00:27:26,081 --> 00:27:28,062
like it all comes back to communications.

501
00:27:28,062 --> 00:27:32,664
Like if you can't yeah, if you can't
figure out why your project matters,

502
00:27:32,664 --> 00:27:37,127
then why is anybody gonna fund it or care
or wanna keep doing it?

503
00:27:37,127 --> 00:27:42,709
~ communications is almost one hundred
percent of the time an afterthought.

504
00:27:42,709 --> 00:27:45,859
~ it's something that people go

505
00:27:46,511 --> 00:27:48,594
~ we'll do it if we have money.

506
00:27:48,594 --> 00:27:52,439
Yeah. Or it's kind of fluffy, not
necessary.

507
00:27:52,439 --> 00:27:55,483
Or so we'll just have ~ a student do it.

508
00:27:55,483 --> 00:28:00,590
Or you know, we'll we'll bring someone in
who's keen on Instagram

509
00:28:00,590 --> 00:28:03,634
and they'll be able to do our
communications and it's

510
00:28:04,541 --> 00:28:08,325
the the the importance of it is so so so
underestimated.

511
00:28:08,325 --> 00:28:12,238
Yeah. Because how you talk about your work
is the difference between

512
00:28:12,731 --> 00:28:18,825
it being refunded or not funded again or
funded in the first place or whether

513
00:28:18,865 --> 00:28:23,891
or not it has impact, whether or not
communities will accept it,

514
00:28:23,891 --> 00:28:27,313
whether or not it will go on to the next
stage.

515
00:28:27,313 --> 00:28:28,313
Like it's

516
00:28:29,107 --> 00:28:33,550
The the projects that think about
communications from the beginning go so,

517
00:28:33,550 --> 00:28:38,634
so much further. Right. Because it is that
bridge.

518
00:28:38,634 --> 00:28:43,738
Communications is the mechanism that
bridges the research world or the tech
world

519
00:28:43,918 --> 00:28:46,240
to the real world application.

520
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,632
Right. ~ and yeah,

521
00:28:49,632 --> 00:28:54,406
it's just it's just never considered to be
as important as it actually is.

522
00:28:54,406 --> 00:28:55,406
Yeah. Right.

523
00:28:55,389 --> 00:28:56,389
Yeah, no, it's true. It's

524
00:28:56,369 --> 00:28:58,781
~ we see it all the time. It's and I think
you know,

525
00:28:58,781 --> 00:29:02,862
some of the the projects that I've seen
that have gotten a lot of funding,

526
00:29:02,862 --> 00:29:06,794
getting renewal funding from different
sources throughout are

527
00:29:06,794 --> 00:29:08,945
the ones who communicate right from the
beginning.

528
00:29:08,945 --> 00:29:10,462
It's almost like follow our journey.

529
00:29:10,462 --> 00:29:14,758
Like we've got this really cool project
and however they decide to communicate
that,

530
00:29:14,758 --> 00:29:17,719
whether it's through video or imagery on
social media,

531
00:29:17,719 --> 00:29:23,262
not on social media, whether it be a
conferences or or to investors or to
donors,

532
00:29:23,262 --> 00:29:24,773
like I've seen people who are doing

533
00:29:25,363 --> 00:29:28,525
tagging projects that had ha like people
just donated the yachts

534
00:29:28,525 --> 00:29:30,396
to use while they're doing it.

535
00:29:30,396 --> 00:29:34,159
Not on a workboat but on this like multi
million dollar yacht.

536
00:29:34,159 --> 00:29:36,587
And you're just sitting here like how does
that happen?

537
00:29:36,587 --> 00:29:38,062
It's connections, it's networking,

538
00:29:38,062 --> 00:29:43,105
but it's that communication I think it
goes beyond just what ~ let's put

539
00:29:43,105 --> 00:29:45,486
up a couple of social media posts and
let's let's do that.

540
00:29:45,486 --> 00:29:50,150
We're seeing some really creative ways of
communicating but very targeted ways

541
00:29:50,490 --> 00:29:52,081
of communicating in the future.

542
00:29:52,081 --> 00:29:55,013
And I think that's w that's where the
projects really

543
00:29:55,333 --> 00:29:58,015
lies is you want to accomplish something,

544
00:29:58,015 --> 00:29:59,516
you're trying to solve a problem,

545
00:29:59,516 --> 00:30:03,629
or you're trying to maybe show that
there's a problem or there's

546
00:30:03,629 --> 00:30:05,980
a benefit and there's a more optimistic
view.

547
00:30:05,980 --> 00:30:10,163
But you have to be able to to connect with
the people you're trying to connect with,

548
00:30:10,163 --> 00:30:11,324
whether it's a local community,

549
00:30:11,324 --> 00:30:13,015
whether it's beyond, whether it's
national,

550
00:30:13,015 --> 00:30:15,286
international, or all three, depending,

551
00:30:15,286 --> 00:30:17,088
you have to have different campaigns for
that.

552
00:30:17,088 --> 00:30:19,939
And I think, you know, that's something
I've learned over my time,

553
00:30:19,939 --> 00:30:22,701
you know, listening to all these projects
that we've had on the How

554
00:30:22,701 --> 00:30:24,933
to Protect the Ocean podcast and being
able to go

555
00:30:25,243 --> 00:30:28,535
These conferences and be able to see that
and see a lot of people struggle,

556
00:30:28,535 --> 00:30:32,998
you know, more than not. And the ones that
do get there are the ones that have

557
00:30:32,998 --> 00:30:34,799
a really good communication strategy,

558
00:30:34,799 --> 00:30:38,312
whether it be a lot of followers online or
just the fact that they're just

559
00:30:38,312 --> 00:30:42,124
out there talking to people and and donors
and have that.

560
00:30:42,124 --> 00:30:45,076
You know, I it one thing that really
caught my eye one time is I had

561
00:30:45,076 --> 00:30:48,839
a friend who got ~ a position at a a big
NGO.

562
00:30:48,839 --> 00:30:53,512
and they got a position as ~ it was like
it was like

563
00:30:53,512 --> 00:30:55,033
an internal communications project.

564
00:30:55,073 --> 00:30:57,553
person, but it was they communicate to
donors.

565
00:30:57,553 --> 00:31:00,724
So they will do the reports, they will
have meetings,

566
00:31:00,724 --> 00:31:04,585
they will like, you know, basically keep
them updated on those reports and

567
00:31:04,585 --> 00:31:07,816
all on on the progress and kind of get
them,

568
00:31:07,816 --> 00:31:10,856
you know, excited about doing it so that
they'll do it again.

569
00:31:10,856 --> 00:31:14,077
I think it's important to think that's not
just a social media post.

570
00:31:14,077 --> 00:31:17,838
It is communications is all these
different types of of levels.

571
00:31:17,838 --> 00:31:21,898
So with that said, you know, we we've
talked to some of the problems about

572
00:31:21,898 --> 00:31:23,739
why these projects stall

573
00:31:25,009 --> 00:31:29,271
And we talked a little bit about how
Pisces is is is trying to do things

574
00:31:29,271 --> 00:31:31,582
to kind of help a lot of y you know,

575
00:31:31,582 --> 00:31:34,873
clients or even potential clients that
we've been talking to for for

576
00:31:34,873 --> 00:31:37,054
a number of years, how we help them
through that,

577
00:31:37,054 --> 00:31:38,925
right? ~ we'll start off with you,

578
00:31:38,925 --> 00:31:43,252
Natalie. Like what like what's some of the
ways that ~ especially from

579
00:31:43,252 --> 00:31:48,063
a a ~ communication sort of a clarity way
that we can help some of these projects

580
00:31:48,063 --> 00:31:53,551
g either get unstuck or even prevent them
from getting stuck in the first place.

581
00:31:54,463 --> 00:31:57,496
For sure. So I think this comes back to a
thing that's been mentioned

582
00:31:57,496 --> 00:32:00,148
a couple of times is that when you're an
ocean leader,

583
00:32:00,148 --> 00:32:01,976
an ocean visionary, a researcher,

584
00:32:01,976 --> 00:32:04,442
or whatever, you're a specialist in what
you do.

585
00:32:04,442 --> 00:32:06,594
You love what you do, you love sharks,

586
00:32:06,594 --> 00:32:12,540
you love seaweed, whatever. you don't also
have to love communications.

587
00:32:12,540 --> 00:32:17,104
Right. Right? You don't have to be a good
storyteller or a good communicator,

588
00:32:17,104 --> 00:32:19,407
but you have to have that

589
00:32:20,059 --> 00:32:22,800
as part of your like team or your project.

590
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:28,703
Right. So one of the things that we really
do and that I'm very proud

591
00:32:28,703 --> 00:32:31,564
to bring to people is to is that ability
to say,

592
00:32:31,564 --> 00:32:33,055
hey, like keep your hands in the water.

593
00:32:33,055 --> 00:32:35,016
Right. Keep doing what you're doing.

594
00:32:35,016 --> 00:32:39,808
~ across the board at Pisces, we do the
things you don't have capacity to do,

595
00:32:39,808 --> 00:32:42,630
you don't have expertise in, and we love
these things.

596
00:32:42,630 --> 00:32:45,701
So like we love storytelling and
communications.

597
00:32:45,701 --> 00:32:49,503
You wanna go out for six weeks and do your
research project in the summer?

598
00:32:49,503 --> 00:32:50,503
Like

599
00:32:50,133 --> 00:32:54,256
Perfect. We will take care of you know the
storytelling side of things,

600
00:32:54,256 --> 00:32:57,958
like all of that. Like the ability for us
to plug into projects

601
00:32:57,958 --> 00:33:00,490
and understand ~ what they're doing,

602
00:33:00,490 --> 00:33:03,242
why they're doing it, and then turn around
and tell those stories.

603
00:33:03,242 --> 00:33:07,785
I think is super, super valuable because
you know it's it's not for everyone.

604
00:33:07,785 --> 00:33:11,470
It is an expertise, it is not something
that should be outsourced to

605
00:33:11,470 --> 00:33:16,060
a student or someone who doesn't
understand how to communicate effectively
because

606
00:33:16,060 --> 00:33:17,631
there's so much on the line, right?

607
00:33:17,631 --> 00:33:19,383
Yeah. Public acceptance of it,

608
00:33:19,383 --> 00:33:20,383
stakeholders.

609
00:33:19,953 --> 00:33:22,544
engagement, funding, refunding,

610
00:33:22,544 --> 00:33:25,036
~ just impact in general. And,

611
00:33:25,036 --> 00:33:29,768
you know, scientists and ocean engineers
and technologists are like fantastic

612
00:33:29,768 --> 00:33:32,360
at what they do, but not often great at
talking about it.

613
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,131
We're great at talking about it.

614
00:33:34,131 --> 00:33:38,933
You know? So so that's ~ you know a very
easy way we can help people is just,

615
00:33:38,933 --> 00:33:42,315
you know, tell us your story. We know how
to pull the stories out of people

616
00:33:42,315 --> 00:33:47,188
and then tell them to whatever audience ~
they're they're they're looking

617
00:33:47,188 --> 00:33:49,749
at depending on what a project is doing in
that moment.

618
00:33:49,929 --> 00:33:51,530
Yeah, absolutely. And and Christine,

619
00:33:51,530 --> 00:33:54,741
you and I know too, like as as growing up
as scientists,

620
00:33:54,741 --> 00:33:56,832
we're taught a specific way of
communicating.

621
00:33:56,832 --> 00:33:58,923
yeah. Very factual, very like,

622
00:33:58,923 --> 00:34:02,105
this is b it's boring, it's not like it's
just here's the fact.

623
00:34:02,105 --> 00:34:04,766
You know. let me ask you this,

624
00:34:04,766 --> 00:34:08,328
~ Chris, what have you learned in terms of
the different styles

625
00:34:08,328 --> 00:34:12,500
of communication between science and then
trying to get people interested

626
00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:13,551
in storytelling?

627
00:34:13,833 --> 00:34:18,026
Yeah, I mean scientists are excellent at
communicating to other scientists.

628
00:34:18,026 --> 00:34:21,279
~ often doesn't go beyond that.

629
00:34:21,279 --> 00:34:24,202
That's not to say it's it true not
everybody.

630
00:34:24,202 --> 00:34:27,234
I mean, some people do have that ability,

631
00:34:27,234 --> 00:34:29,259
but a a lot of scientists, like you said,

632
00:34:29,259 --> 00:34:35,051
w we're learned right from our bachelors
how to structure our communication

633
00:34:35,051 --> 00:34:39,405
in such a way that it can be published for
other academics,

634
00:34:39,405 --> 00:34:41,586
or we're going to conferences and told

635
00:34:42,429 --> 00:34:44,420
you know, just present on your data.

636
00:34:44,420 --> 00:34:50,282
Right. You know, I did X, Y, and Z to get
this data.

637
00:34:50,282 --> 00:34:55,984
And ~ this is our next steps for the next
phase of the project.

638
00:34:55,984 --> 00:34:57,884
Right. There there's no story there.

639
00:34:57,884 --> 00:35:02,246
It's kind of blah, but us as scientists
are used to that going to conferences.

640
00:35:02,246 --> 00:35:04,847
And so that's been totally fine for us.

641
00:35:04,986 --> 00:35:05,986
Yeah.

642
00:35:06,199 --> 00:35:07,461
And we're still learning

643
00:35:07,461 --> 00:35:09,523
and ~ I mean that's the right crowd for
it.

644
00:35:09,523 --> 00:35:11,816
But imagine if you if you went in and
you're like,

645
00:35:11,816 --> 00:35:14,148
Why did I start this research?

646
00:35:14,148 --> 00:35:18,974
Yeah. You know? And and already set the
stage of why the research

647
00:35:18,974 --> 00:35:22,859
is important and the next phase of the
project

648
00:35:23,539 --> 00:35:25,500
Why is that phase going to be important?

649
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:30,402
Is that going to, you know, target a
specific policymaker who could then help

650
00:35:30,402 --> 00:35:36,424
establish ~ your protected area or ~ start
looking

651
00:35:36,424 --> 00:35:40,979
at different ways to protect your species
that you're most interested in?

652
00:35:40,979 --> 00:35:45,758
The story will help there. And in
particular now there's more policymakers

653
00:35:45,758 --> 00:35:48,159
and stakeholders joining these academic
conferences.

654
00:35:48,159 --> 00:35:51,231
So I think, you know, being able to speak
to them

655
00:35:51,833 --> 00:35:58,117
as well. ~ and then just you know I think
it's more human connecting human

656
00:35:58,117 --> 00:36:02,730
to human ~ to just talk about your
research as if you're having

657
00:36:02,730 --> 00:36:06,693
a conversation almost and not so
formulated.

658
00:36:06,693 --> 00:36:11,426
Right. ~ and the jargon. I mean we

659
00:36:10,379 --> 00:36:11,379
We love our act.

660
00:36:11,426 --> 00:36:16,750
love our jargon but ~ remember that not
everybody is an expert in ~ what

661
00:36:16,750 --> 00:36:20,622
you know so try and avoid using jargon

662
00:36:17,757 --> 00:36:21,289
Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

663
00:36:21,289 --> 00:36:22,289
absolutely.

664
00:36:22,070 --> 00:36:25,532
Absolutely. ~ and then and kind of adding
to that,

665
00:36:25,532 --> 00:36:27,574
not just from a communications point of
view,

666
00:36:27,574 --> 00:36:31,196
but Melissa, you mentioned something at
the beginning of of this episode where

667
00:36:31,957 --> 00:36:33,977
talked about how sometimes during a
project,

668
00:36:33,977 --> 00:36:38,721
even though you know, funding came in on
on achieving specific goals,

669
00:36:38,721 --> 00:36:40,443
sometimes those goals change.

670
00:36:41,286 --> 00:36:43,019
And that happens, right? Throughout a
project,

671
00:36:43,019 --> 00:36:44,952
you you start to realize certain things.

672
00:36:44,952 --> 00:36:49,999
How does a like how do ocean leaders who
are putting these projects together,

673
00:36:49,999 --> 00:36:51,201
how do they

674
00:36:52,973 --> 00:36:58,467
like allow for that evolution of those
goals by still meeting their initial goals

675
00:36:58,567 --> 00:37:01,956
and then either developing or trying to
make a case,

676
00:37:01,956 --> 00:37:04,161
a use case for the next goals.

677
00:37:04,161 --> 00:37:08,564
Like how do they s but how do they not get
distracted from those we could

678
00:37:08,564 --> 00:37:10,935
do this as well, but we don't have funding
for that.

679
00:37:10,935 --> 00:37:14,538
So we don't want to move that funding from
this this the original goals

680
00:37:14,538 --> 00:37:15,538
to these new ones.

681
00:37:16,701 --> 00:37:18,675
Yeah, that's a tough one. Yeah,

682
00:37:18,675 --> 00:37:22,212
yeah. The shiny things.

683
00:37:22,212 --> 00:37:23,364
It's it's hard.

684
00:37:25,841 --> 00:37:31,315
Yeah, I think what's most important I I
would say is that transparency is key.

685
00:37:31,315 --> 00:37:37,529
So like if your goals have changed so
dramatically that they need to be re
reframed,

686
00:37:37,529 --> 00:37:40,151
then I think, you know, going to the
funder and saying,

687
00:37:40,151 --> 00:37:43,223
look, this is, you know, this is what the
situation is.

688
00:37:43,223 --> 00:37:45,504
What should we do? How can we,

689
00:37:45,504 --> 00:37:51,569
you know, rescope this and ~ to make sure
that we're having the best impact.

690
00:37:51,569 --> 00:37:54,090
but I think

691
00:37:55,255 --> 00:37:59,979
researchers also love concluding with we
need more research.

692
00:37:59,979 --> 00:38:03,602
So, you know, that's also an exciting
element to this.

693
00:38:03,602 --> 00:38:06,155
But I mean, I think like anything,

694
00:38:06,155 --> 00:38:09,548
if you if you think of a research project
like a contract,

695
00:38:09,548 --> 00:38:15,133
as a consultant, you know, you can have a
scope of work and then you

696
00:38:15,133 --> 00:38:19,476
can also get distracted by shiny new ideas
and new things.

697
00:38:19,476 --> 00:38:20,768
But you know, as a consultant,

698
00:38:20,768 --> 00:38:21,955
you have to say, okay

699
00:38:23,059 --> 00:38:26,541
Those are all really great, but we're over
here in in this lane.

700
00:38:26,541 --> 00:38:30,785
And so I think the same logic applies to
research projects where it's like

701
00:38:30,785 --> 00:38:33,326
you have to be very diligent on,

702
00:38:33,326 --> 00:38:36,869
you know, what ~ you're trying to achieve.

703
00:38:36,869 --> 00:38:43,484
~ which is hard because you're almost
trying

704
00:38:43,484 --> 00:38:44,674
it it's kind of like

705
00:38:47,177 --> 00:38:51,329
Chess, I guess. Chess or s some sort of
logical game where you're trying to,

706
00:38:51,329 --> 00:38:56,451
you know, align things. Like you you have
to be five steps ahead,

707
00:38:56,451 --> 00:39:02,603
even though you're, you know, back here ~
on project phase one of project one,

708
00:39:02,603 --> 00:39:04,644
you you know, the day that starts,

709
00:39:04,644 --> 00:39:06,395
you do need to think about phase two,

710
00:39:06,395 --> 00:39:09,346
but ~ it has to be done in

711
00:39:09,346 --> 00:39:15,719
a very logical way where things are still
happening.

712
00:39:15,721 --> 00:39:19,896
Yeah. Yeah, you still have to meet the
needs and then hopefully later on,

713
00:39:19,896 --> 00:39:23,060
you know, d you know, be able to develop
on that.

714
00:39:23,060 --> 00:39:25,102
Yeah. Hopefully you get funded again for
that.

715
00:39:25,375 --> 00:39:30,141
Yeah, exactly. Which I think is where
communications is a huge huge piece.

716
00:39:30,141 --> 00:39:33,965
And you know, w what to to add to what
Kirsty was saying,

717
00:39:33,965 --> 00:39:37,770
~ I do think in this as the landscape
changes,

718
00:39:37,770 --> 00:39:39,572
it's becoming more and more competitive.

719
00:39:39,572 --> 00:39:43,737
So having your narrative,

720
00:39:43,737 --> 00:39:44,737
your story

721
00:39:45,991 --> 00:39:51,377
a clear, clear objective or what this
project is about is more important than
ever

722
00:39:51,377 --> 00:39:55,200
because if you're talking about your
project and people don't understand

723
00:39:55,601 --> 00:40:00,606
mm what it means, that's it's gonna be
hard to get yeah funding

724
00:40:00,746 --> 00:40:04,930
and ~ and partners and all that sort of
stuff.

725
00:40:05,087 --> 00:40:08,369
Absolutely, absolutely. Nelly have one
more question for you.

726
00:40:08,369 --> 00:40:12,470
We've we've focused a lot on like
scientists and doing projects.

727
00:40:12,470 --> 00:40:16,562
Well one thing I've seen over the since
since I started there's a lot

728
00:40:16,562 --> 00:40:19,414
of people who are in business or who have
been in business,

729
00:40:19,414 --> 00:40:21,554
say a tech business or something like that
in the past,

730
00:40:21,554 --> 00:40:26,257
and they have come across a s a problem
that they want to solve within

731
00:40:26,777 --> 00:40:31,539
the ocean space. You know, whether that is
getting nets out like ghost nets

732
00:40:31,539 --> 00:40:35,041
out of the ocean or whether that's like
looking at new blue

733
00:40:35,121 --> 00:40:37,802
Carbon and blue economy type of of
systems.

734
00:40:37,802 --> 00:40:42,063
When you speak to people who come to you
and be like,

735
00:40:42,063 --> 00:40:43,524
this is what I'm trying to do,

736
00:40:43,524 --> 00:40:48,476
what is your approach when like the like
the first steps that you like

737
00:40:48,476 --> 00:40:50,026
the advice that you give them?

738
00:40:50,026 --> 00:40:53,508
Like these are you know ocean leaders who
are trying to run projects.

739
00:40:53,508 --> 00:40:57,059
They may not know the space in terms of
conservation or necessarily

740
00:40:57,059 --> 00:41:00,000
the blue economy. They come from a
different sort of basis,

741
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,131
but from a communication standpoint,

742
00:41:02,131 --> 00:41:03,131
like

743
00:41:03,325 --> 00:41:05,208
I know it's just a a very general
question.

744
00:41:05,208 --> 00:41:06,741
Everybody's unique in its own way,

745
00:41:06,741 --> 00:41:11,428
but what are some of the things that you
see that c that kind of move across that

746
00:41:11,428 --> 00:41:15,405
that you may be like, okay, we're gonna
steer you in this direction because you'll

747
00:41:15,405 --> 00:41:16,837
have more success in this way.

748
00:41:18,813 --> 00:41:19,813
Well

749
00:41:20,201 --> 00:41:24,323
I think a couple a couple of the things
that I see fairly often,

750
00:41:24,323 --> 00:41:28,815
whether you're within the ocean sector
already or or coming into it,

751
00:41:28,815 --> 00:41:35,148
it there's a natural sort of inclination
for talking about yourself

752
00:41:35,148 --> 00:41:38,920
and and your own work and kind of
communicating about,

753
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,501
you know, you and your your plan,

754
00:41:41,501 --> 00:41:43,282
your technology, your product,

755
00:41:43,282 --> 00:41:45,303
your data, you, you, you, you,

756
00:41:45,303 --> 00:41:50,145
you. Yeah. Right. And and ~ one of the
like easiest changes that

757
00:41:50,225 --> 00:41:55,409
That people can make across the board ~ is
to flip that

758
00:41:55,870 --> 00:41:58,572
and talk to people, not at them.

759
00:41:58,572 --> 00:42:01,464
Yeah. Right? So it's often a very simple
thing,

760
00:42:01,464 --> 00:42:03,956
like especially if you're coming into a
new industry,

761
00:42:03,956 --> 00:42:06,745
like you're coming, you're an engineer and
you're coming into oceans because

762
00:42:06,745 --> 00:42:10,112
you have some great idea for you know
collecting ghost gear or whatever.

763
00:42:10,112 --> 00:42:16,046
it's starting with, well, how is what
you're trying to do going to help?

764
00:42:16,945 --> 00:42:20,957
the people you're talking to or the blue
economy or the ocean,

765
00:42:20,957 --> 00:42:26,659
right? So instead of it being you're here
doing this because you love this it's

766
00:42:26,799 --> 00:42:30,191
I'm we're here to do this for you for this
reason,

767
00:42:30,191 --> 00:42:32,532
for the ocean. and I call that flipping
the narrative.

768
00:42:32,532 --> 00:42:36,564
So it's just taking our like sort of we're
all comfortable talking about ourselves

769
00:42:36,564 --> 00:42:40,435
and our own work, right? That's why we get
lost in jargon and stuff like that 'cause

770
00:42:40,435 --> 00:42:42,366
we're what do you mean you don't know what
that means?

771
00:42:42,366 --> 00:42:43,795
~

772
00:42:44,307 --> 00:42:47,231
So it's it's a very simple thing to do
that's actually kinda hard

773
00:42:47,231 --> 00:42:49,184
in practice because you do have to stop
and go,

774
00:42:49,184 --> 00:42:51,338
Wait a minute, like I'm you know,

775
00:42:51,338 --> 00:42:53,912
it's like it's like when you have a friend
and all they do is talk about themselves

776
00:42:53,912 --> 00:42:54,912
and you're

777
00:42:54,727 --> 00:42:55,770
Yeah. Right.

778
00:42:56,071 --> 00:42:57,202
I don't care. Like after a

779
00:42:57,202 --> 00:43:00,343
certain point you don't care. And it's the
same in in communications.

780
00:43:00,343 --> 00:43:03,885
It's if you come in and you're just
talking about you and your business,

781
00:43:03,885 --> 00:43:07,136
it's very hard for people to stay engaged
and if you're in a new sector,

782
00:43:07,136 --> 00:43:09,687
new business, you know, startups
especially.

783
00:43:09,687 --> 00:43:14,500
This is a it's a big one. It's it's hard
to hard to stand out and hard

784
00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:16,911
to get a footing going in a in a new kind
of space.

785
00:43:16,911 --> 00:43:18,822
But if you can show up and say,

786
00:43:18,822 --> 00:43:22,563
Here's how what we're doing helps you ~ it
makes a big,

787
00:43:22,563 --> 00:43:25,985
big, big difference. So that's probably
nine times out of ten.

788
00:43:26,055 --> 00:43:29,300
like the first piece of advice you give to
people and and it's like a

789
00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:30,618
big eye opener usually, right?

790
00:43:30,618 --> 00:43:31,673
'Cause it's simple but

791
00:43:32,169 --> 00:43:33,169
just listen a lot

792
00:43:33,070 --> 00:43:36,785
of the times. And sometimes and you can
get that you know,

793
00:43:36,785 --> 00:43:39,668
what you're trying to do, you might be
able to really cater it towards

794
00:43:39,969 --> 00:43:43,753
the needs of who you're talking to and and
the the people that you're talking to.

795
00:43:43,753 --> 00:43:45,055
It's great.

796
00:43:45,629 --> 00:43:47,280
Great first episode, everybody.

797
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,531
This is our first episode. ~ you know,

798
00:43:49,531 --> 00:43:53,963
I think this is what we're gonna be
putting out ~ a lot in in the future.

799
00:43:53,963 --> 00:43:57,885
~ and we're gonna be looking at ocean
projects.

800
00:43:57,885 --> 00:44:02,107
We're gonna be speaking to some of our
past clients or even current clients

801
00:44:02,107 --> 00:44:05,508
in terms of like their challenges that
they've met and they've been able

802
00:44:05,508 --> 00:44:09,374
to overcome, but also just talking about
just ocean projects in

803
00:44:09,374 --> 00:44:12,251
in general and talking about some of the
struggles that ocean leaders get.

804
00:44:12,251 --> 00:44:15,543
Hopefully we can provide value in people
who if you have

805
00:44:15,573 --> 00:44:19,665
your own ocean project or you're trying to
by being a leader in the space,

806
00:44:19,665 --> 00:44:23,597
we'd be more than happy to ~ be able to
have that conversation or even

807
00:44:23,597 --> 00:44:26,590
at least you'd be able to listen to us and
and be able to hear that.

808
00:44:26,590 --> 00:44:30,183
And if you want more information from us,

809
00:44:30,183 --> 00:44:32,634
we'll put in the show notes you can
contact us or you can go

810
00:44:32,634 --> 00:44:36,867
to PiscesOceans.ca and be able to ~ to
connect with us there.

811
00:44:36,867 --> 00:44:38,768
But every thank you everybody.

812
00:44:38,768 --> 00:44:42,271
Appreciate it. First episode in the in the
in the bag and we're ready

813
00:44:42,271 --> 00:44:45,393
to go to episode two. We got a couple of
episodes coming out ~

814
00:44:45,495 --> 00:44:47,637
~ we're probably gonna put these out
bi-weekly.

815
00:44:47,637 --> 00:44:52,310
~ and so we're gonna be talking about a
project lifecycle and what that looks
like.

816
00:44:52,310 --> 00:44:56,493
~ and then we're gonna be hopefully having
one of our clients on and

817
00:44:56,573 --> 00:45:00,056
and and talk more about communications and
everything like that.

818
00:45:00,056 --> 00:45:03,398
So subscribe, follow whatever app you're
on,

819
00:45:03,398 --> 00:45:05,600
and we'd love to hear from you in the
future.

820
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:06,600
So thank you.

821
00:45:08,361 --> 00:45:09,361
Well.

822
00:45:08,828 --> 00:45:11,080
Alright, everybody, to the entire Pisces
team,

823
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,092
Melissa, Natalie, and Kirsty and myself,

824
00:45:14,092 --> 00:45:17,455
congratulations. We've got our first
podcast together out,

825
00:45:17,455 --> 00:45:19,717
wrapped up, and we did a great job,

826
00:45:19,717 --> 00:45:21,699
I think. Let us know how we did.

827
00:45:21,699 --> 00:45:25,562
Did you enjoy the podcast? Do you do you
identify with some of the things that
we've

828
00:45:25,562 --> 00:45:28,665
talked about in that? If you're not a
client of ours and you want

829
00:45:28,665 --> 00:45:32,258
to and you're thinking about working with
us or figuring out how to work with us,

830
00:45:32,258 --> 00:45:36,211
what I would recommend is we you go over
to PiscesOceans.ca and

831
00:45:37,116 --> 00:45:39,498
and you sign up to strengthen your
project.

832
00:45:39,498 --> 00:45:43,381
It'll take you through a Wayfinder and
it'll be like a way to help how

833
00:45:43,381 --> 00:45:45,763
we can help and just direct us how we can
help you.

834
00:45:45,763 --> 00:45:49,826
And then we'll have an in-person or
virtual call and we'll discuss your
project

835
00:45:49,826 --> 00:45:53,429
and where we can help out. And then
hopefully we can work together

836
00:45:53,429 --> 00:45:55,941
at some point soon. So I think it's it's
really great.

837
00:45:55,941 --> 00:45:59,003
You know, some of the some of the things
that are coming up next episode,

838
00:45:59,003 --> 00:46:02,216
we're doing a bi weekly. So the next in
two weeks

839
00:46:02,510 --> 00:46:05,762
Natalie and I are going to be talking
about communications and why it's

840
00:46:05,762 --> 00:46:09,924
so important to have communications start
at the beginning of your ocean project

841
00:46:09,924 --> 00:46:13,386
for two major reasons. So I can't wait to
talk about that.

842
00:46:13,386 --> 00:46:16,748
And of course, if you don't want to miss
that episode with Natalie and I,

843
00:46:16,748 --> 00:46:20,491
you can subscribe or follow on your
favorite podcast app.

844
00:46:20,491 --> 00:46:24,153
And of course, you can reach out to us and
let's let us know how you feel.

845
00:46:24,153 --> 00:46:25,564
And we'd love to hear your feedback.

846
00:46:25,564 --> 00:46:29,466
So just you know, you can hit us up on
LinkedIn if you go to the Pisces page.

847
00:46:29,814 --> 00:46:33,616
~ or we'll put our links in the show notes
down below and then you can

848
00:46:33,616 --> 00:46:36,857
~ you can contact us. But I want to thank
you so much for joining

849
00:46:36,857 --> 00:46:40,188
us on today's episode of the Ocean Leader
Podcast,

850
00:46:40,188 --> 00:46:45,230
a Pisces podcast. Very excited to start
this journey ~ with Pisces ~ as well

851
00:46:45,230 --> 00:46:47,631
as the podcast and to get to know you
more.

852
00:46:47,631 --> 00:46:49,572
So give us send us your feedback,

853
00:46:49,572 --> 00:46:53,454
what you want us to tackle, what you're
what the challenges you're facing.

854
00:46:53,454 --> 00:46:56,825
We'd love to hear you from you and from
the Pisces team and I myself,

855
00:46:56,825 --> 00:46:58,586
Andrew Lewin. Thank you so much for
joining us.

856
00:46:58,832 --> 00:47:00,780
Have a great day and happy conservation.