Coffee and the Environment: The Hidden Cost of Your Daily Brew

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Most people drink coffee every day
without a second thought yet you know

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that it's one of the top drivers of
global deforestation and ocean pollution.

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Tell Hiney a human rights lawyer turned
environmental activists discovered

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that coffee is tied not only to
deforestation, but also to slavery,

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toxic chemical use, and the degradation
of critical marine ecosystems.

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After years investigating abuses in cocoa,
rubber, and seafood industries, tell

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founded coffee, watch to expose how the
coffee supply chain harms both people.

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And the planet.

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Her research revealed that many
certified ethical coffee brands

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still fall short, failing to
ensure living wages, environmental

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protection, or even traceability
with some link to modern slavery.

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In today's episode of the How to Protect
the Ocean Podcast, it tell shares.

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How you can make simple, powerful
changes in your daily coffee habits

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to protect rainforest, defend human
rights, and safeguard our oceans.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody.

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Welcome back to another exciting episode
of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this
is the podcast where you find out what's

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happening in the ocean, how you can speak
up for the ocean, and what you can do to

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live for a better ocean by taking action.

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And today we're talking about coffee
and you're probably wondering, Andrew,

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why are we talking about coffee?

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You don't even drink
coffee, and that is true.

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I do not drink coffee.

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Not that I don't like coffee.

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I don't think I've ever actually
tried coffee to the point where I'm

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like giving it a really good shake.

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I am actually just not a coffee drinker.

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There's no worries of
me ever drinking coffee.

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I have no urge to drink coffee.

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And that's fine.

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There's nothing wrong with that.

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And I have nothing against
people who drink coffee.

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I actually enjoy the smell of coffee.

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My wife has coffee and it smells great
in the house when she does have that, but

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it's really difficult to know if you are
drinking coffee that's actually good for

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the planet, for people who are growing
it and so forth, just like seafood.

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So I wanted to have someone on the podcast
to talk about how to choose the proper

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coffee and how to go forward and make sure
that you can drink conscious free coffee

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to make sure you can get through your day.

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So I had to tell Higonnet on the podcast
today, she is the founder and executive

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director of Coffee Watch, where they look
at all things coffee related and looking

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at the entire supply chain and finding
out what is good and what is bad, and

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oftentimes terrible within this industry.

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And how we can make it better.

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So she's gonna talk about her journey from
human rights lawyer in conflict areas like

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war zones that have to deal with torture
and so forth, all the way to the coffee

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industry and how that's kind of related
and from a human rights perspective.

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We're gonna talk a lot about that.

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We're gonna talk about
the coffee industry.

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We're gonna talk about how some of
the major corporations can have a

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huge difference just like they did in
the seafood industry, and how we can

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find more ways to live sustainably
just by drinking a cup of coffee.

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It's gonna be a great show.

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Before we get into the interview though,
I would like to say if you want to find

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out more ways that you can be guided
towards living for a better planet

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and a better ocean, you can do so by
joining the undertow that's go to Speak

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up for blue.com/join the undertow.

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That's speak up for
blue.com/join the undertow.

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All one word.

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You can join our community of action
where we guide you to make better choices,

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not only from a knowledge standpoint
and learn about the ocean, but say,

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Hey, how do we buy the right coffee?

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How do we buy the right seafood?

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How do we make sure that we're drinking
outta the right containers and so

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forth, and making sure we're making
healthy choices not only for us, but

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for our planet and for our ocean?

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Go to speak up for
blue.com/join the undertow.

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Here's the interview with Itel
Hiney from Coffee Watch Learning

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all about coffee and how to make
better choices for better planet.

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Enjoy the interview and
I will talk to you after.

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Hey Itel, welcome to the How
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about all
things coffee and the environ?

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I am so excited to be here.

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Nice.

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I'm very excited too.

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This is something that's very new to me.

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I'm not a coffee drinker, full disclosure.

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Uh, but I know so many people who
drink coffee, including everybody else

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in my household except for my dogs.

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And even I feel like my dogs would
drink it if it was on the ground.

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So, you know, let's, let's
just put that out there.

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Um, but I know like coffee is such
a huge part of everybody's life.

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You know, you hear people say, I
can't function without my coffee.

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There's t-shirts, like, but coffee,
you know, they all have these types of

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signs and everybody loves their coffee.

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But when you think about where coffee
comes from, how it's made, how it's

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farmed, who farms it, you know what
the process is, how it affects the

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environment, there are a lot of things
that go into it that we are not really.

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Uh, uh, told about, or, or aware of in
terms of what happens within the coffee

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industry and are we drinking coffee?

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That is one sustainable,
actually free trade.

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You hear people talk
about free trade coffee.

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So we're gonna get into all these
different questions and really dispel

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some of the myths and really understand
how the coffee industry works in 2025 and

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what we can do as people who drink coffee
can do to make it better and, and, and

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just have a better conscious when they're
actually buying coffee and, and making

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sure they're making the right decision.

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So, uh, without hopefully interfering
with their lives too much or paying,

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uh, the wazoo for, for coffee, right?

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So we're gonna get into all that, but
before we do, Al, why don't you let

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us know who you are and what you do.

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Sure.

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Well, it's such a pleasure
to be here on your show.

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I am a human rights and
environmental activist and lawyer.

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You can probably tell from
my name I'm French American.

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Uh, but I, yeah, I, I went to the United
States for university and from law school

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at Yale and worked, um, a little bit
into war crimes, tribunals, and that

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sort of set me on this trajectory of.

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Trying to combat crimes against humanity.

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Mm-hmm.

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So after the war crimes courts in
Sierra Leone and in Cambodia, I

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worked with Human Rights Watch and
Amnesty International, mostly in

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war zones and post-conflict areas.

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Wow.

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And the International
Human Rights Law Institute.

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So the first like 12 years of my
life were dominated by a somewhat

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grim reality of documenting Yeah.

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Really awful things that people
do to one another like rape

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and torture and killings.

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But I'm, I'm actually a very positive
glass possible kind of person.

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I know that sounds crazy.

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And I, I do believe in fundamentally
in, in the goodness of humanity.

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And I had this moment where I
realized that one reason there's so

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many wars and conflicts is because.

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You know, we're entering an
era of climate chaos, and it's

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already turbocharging, huh.

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And deepening conflicts and
making conflicts appear where

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none were before and making them
worse when they interesting.

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And so I decided to go
work at, at Greenpeace.

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Um, okay.

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Combat climate change as best I could.

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And I ended up as research director
for Greenpeace in Southeast Asia,

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working a lot on oceans and actually
trying to, um, combat seafood

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slavery as well as overfishing, but
also just a lot on deforestation

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and other environmental issues.

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And that sort of, I don't know, it
just ignited this passion in me to both

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defend the environment and human rights.

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And when I was at Greenpeace and then
also this other organization I worked

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in, it's called Mighty Earth, I guess.

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Maybe describe it as a
spinoff of Green Peas.

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Yeah.

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Um, yeah.

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One thing that I had wanted to do
was to work on all the top seven

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drivers of global deforestation.

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Okay.

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And at green we did an amazing job on
the big four palm oil pulp and paper

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cattle, soy, but we never really were
able to tackle cocoa, coffee and rubber.

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So at Night Earth, I started these cocoa
and rubber campaigns that were awesome

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and we love so many of our campaign
really helped to transform a lot of

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things in those industries, which are
not great by any means, but Right.

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There's, um, this really amazing journey
towards rapid change in, in rubber and

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cocoa that I sort of figured out all
the best things that we had done at

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Greenpeace for palm oil and brought it
into cocoa and rubber, um, along with

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the best things that I remembered from
amnesty and human Rights Watch days.

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And it just taught me
that you can transform.

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Mm-hmm.

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Really destructive industries.

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So after taking two years off
with, um, my beautiful baby boy,

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I thought, ah, I got knighted.

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What should I do with this knighthood?

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I'm gonna try to now turn to the
last of the big seven drivers of

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deforestation that gets almost no
attention, which is coffee, right?

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Nobody works on it.

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Not Greenpeace, not mighty Earth,
not amnesty, not human rights Watch.

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Just decided this orphan subject,
and yet it's the number six driver.

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Of global deforestation and
it's powering ocean destruction,

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slavery, and child labor.

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And I thought, okay, that's what
I'm gonna use my neighborhood for.

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I'm gonna try right.

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Change the coffee industry if I can.

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So that's where we are now.

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I guess you could best
describe Coffee Watch.

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It's like if Amnesty and Green Peas
got together and had a baby and that

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baby just wanted to work on coffee.

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Well, I, you know, I think it's
really important too, and, and

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we'll, we'll get into this more
as, as the interview progresses.

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'cause I wanna really start to get your
mindset of when you started off and your

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first, even before you started your career
and, and get your schooling, your thought

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process of what you want to do when, like,
growing up and how it related to coffee

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or even just human rights and everything.

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But it's, it's interesting how,
you know, we look at the top 10 of

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what the, the top 10 drivers of, of
deforestation coffee is one of them,

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but there isn't much information.

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On how it's destructive
or even movement on that.

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And you know, even like, you know, you
know, organizations like Green Pieces

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and, and a C International and all the
WWF, all these other organizations that

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are so massive, they focus on specific
aspects of, you know, deforestation.

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Uh, but it's funny how coffee is kind of
slipped aside and, and you know, not many

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people are working on if it's more than
one, uh, as, as opposed to a coffee shop.

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A coffee watch.

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It'd be interesting to, to
hear that, but let's go.

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But I, I, I kind of wanna go back
a little bit in time and you've,

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you've mentioned that you've covered
some pretty emotionally and mentally

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draining and I'm sure physically
as well, but, uh, uh, and intense

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cases and, and exper work experience
when you were studying even before

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when you were, you know, a teenager.

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Did you always have
that drive to like that?

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I guess it's, it's a bit of a political,
but also human rights drive to stick

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up for the person who, or the people
who couldn't defend themselves or

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who went through a hardship Always.

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Yeah.

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And if anything is, you know,
Andrew, I think most of us start out

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that way, but somehow life crushes
a lot of people along the path.

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But yeah, ever since I was young, I,
I knew the world was not quite right.

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You know, all this injustice and
poverty and human rights abuses.

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I think many people know that
the world is not quite right.

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Yeah, for sure.

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But, um, somehow my family and
friends gave me this weird,

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wild, crazy idea that I could.

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Change that to make the
world a better place.

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So I think I'm very lucky
that I, um, got that memo,

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especially one of my professors.

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Mm-hmm.

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I was an undergrad named Greg Grandin.

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Greg Grandin, he just changed my world.

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And another Professor Ben Kernan.

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They're both just the most amazing mentors
and yeah, I, I will be internally grateful

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to them for teaching me that, you know,
every time you see something wrong mm-hmm.

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You can always, always
do something about it.

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And that's a very difficult thing to, I
mean, it's easy to tell a child or to tell

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a, a student, an undergraduate student,
to say, Hey, look, you know, we need to

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stand up for what's wrong in this world.

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There, there are a lot of
things wrong with this world,

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uh, and we need to stand up.

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But a lot of people, uh, don't want
to, it, it takes a lot of bravery.

227
00:12:15,735 --> 00:12:19,995
It takes a lot of courage to stand up for
something and speak out against something.

228
00:12:19,995 --> 00:12:22,515
You can speak out about anything
these days and get criticism.

229
00:12:22,515 --> 00:12:24,975
And a lot of people are worried
about the criticism that they get.

230
00:12:25,215 --> 00:12:29,265
They don't wanna, uh, you know, take too
much of a, a controversial stance or they

231
00:12:29,265 --> 00:12:33,975
don't want to go opposite of what the main
purpose of, you know, or, or the main sort

232
00:12:33,975 --> 00:12:36,435
of thought process of a specific issue.

233
00:12:36,765 --> 00:12:37,515
Uh, you know.

234
00:12:38,475 --> 00:12:41,235
Even as an example, obviously we're
not gonna discuss it, but like the,

235
00:12:41,235 --> 00:12:45,945
you know, the what's happening in Gaza,
in, in Israel, it's a very difficult

236
00:12:45,945 --> 00:12:50,175
issue even just to have a conversation
with, you know, within your household

237
00:12:50,175 --> 00:12:54,765
or, uh, within a, within a context of a
public setting because everybody's so,

238
00:12:55,005 --> 00:12:58,815
or a lot of people who are so divided
and, but want to see a solution in

239
00:12:58,815 --> 00:13:01,515
some sort of capacity as a, as a child.

240
00:13:01,515 --> 00:13:04,125
It's like, I've got two teenagers at
home, two teenage girls at home, and

241
00:13:04,125 --> 00:13:07,155
it's like, you know, sometimes you
want them to stand up for something and

242
00:13:07,155 --> 00:13:09,405
you want them to stand up for what's
right and then there are, but there are

243
00:13:09,465 --> 00:13:11,115
sometimes there are consequences to that.

244
00:13:11,115 --> 00:13:15,615
Was there, was there anything in your,
uh, whether you were in high school or

245
00:13:15,615 --> 00:13:19,995
undergraduate level, like a specific
moment that you kind of remember standing

246
00:13:19,995 --> 00:13:24,195
up for something that you may not have
had to, but you felt it was really

247
00:13:24,195 --> 00:13:28,035
important to say, Hey, you know what,
like this is wrong and we really need

248
00:13:28,035 --> 00:13:32,445
to be able to tackle this or be able
to discuss this, this particular issue.

249
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,050
You know, something that really, um,
motivated me when I was younger, when

250
00:13:37,050 --> 00:13:43,260
I was a teenager, I found out that
my grandfather Kapa had done small

251
00:13:43,260 --> 00:13:45,240
things with the franchise sauce.

252
00:13:45,355 --> 00:13:45,645
Okay.

253
00:13:45,985 --> 00:13:47,845
And he was not a big hero.

254
00:13:48,954 --> 00:13:49,365
Yeah, right.

255
00:13:49,585 --> 00:13:53,760
He just, uh, he was an engineer and
he apparently, according to one of

256
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:58,140
my uncles, um, who's also a very,
very talented math, science brain,

257
00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:02,069
um, he kapa made microfiche mm-hmm.

258
00:14:02,850 --> 00:14:05,250
Papers for the ALS and the microfiche.

259
00:14:05,250 --> 00:14:07,050
You can roll them up very small Yeah.

260
00:14:07,050 --> 00:14:09,750
Persons and put them in like
a cigarette case or a matchbox

261
00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:11,250
or a cylinder of a bicycle.

262
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:17,730
And, um, you know, the fact that
my grandfather did something

263
00:14:17,730 --> 00:14:20,069
that was so small and niche.

264
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,479
But so important and so courageous
and just that he was like

265
00:14:24,479 --> 00:14:26,790
this tiny little cog mm-hmm.

266
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:27,990
In a big machine.

267
00:14:27,990 --> 00:14:31,439
I mean, not that the French resistance was
big enough, it should have been bigger.

268
00:14:31,814 --> 00:14:34,155
His, well, it, during World
War ii, they're under attack.

269
00:14:34,305 --> 00:14:35,714
It's, it's, yeah.

270
00:14:35,895 --> 00:14:39,449
It, it was not easy to be in the
his, and yet we wished that the,

271
00:14:39,449 --> 00:14:40,469
his results had been bigger.

272
00:14:40,469 --> 00:14:44,189
But, you know, just knowing that you
don't have to be a super mega hero.

273
00:14:44,354 --> 00:14:44,515
Right.

274
00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,594
You know, K Peppa was not like Right.

275
00:14:47,724 --> 00:14:48,074
Right.

276
00:14:48,074 --> 00:14:53,160
He was always just a father of three
kids who was an engineer and made

277
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,359
his little microfiche what he could
for these, his, his cells guys, and,

278
00:14:57,959 --> 00:14:59,635
you know, it was an act of courage.

279
00:14:59,635 --> 00:14:59,954
Mm-hmm.

280
00:15:00,035 --> 00:15:01,290
It was probably really hard for him.

281
00:15:01,290 --> 00:15:01,469
Mm-hmm.

282
00:15:01,709 --> 00:15:05,130
And I'm not sure, it'll be scary for my
grandmother if she found that For sure.

283
00:15:05,734 --> 00:15:08,880
But it, you know, every
little thing matters.

284
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,189
And I think knowing that
you don't have to be a hero.

285
00:15:11,189 --> 00:15:12,270
You don't have to mm-hmm.

286
00:15:12,599 --> 00:15:13,439
You know, save the world.

287
00:15:13,439 --> 00:15:17,010
All you have to do is just do
the best you can in the moment.

288
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:17,099
Yeah.

289
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,370
With the time that you have and
the abilities that you have.

290
00:15:20,790 --> 00:15:23,130
Just this moment, just do the best.

291
00:15:23,219 --> 00:15:27,060
But I think that's kind of what
set me on my path in a way.

292
00:15:27,185 --> 00:15:30,780
I, I love that story because, I
mean, if you think about that age

293
00:15:31,050 --> 00:15:35,520
of Sistance and, and World War ii,
he could have been killed for that.

294
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,969
For, you know, creating those microfiche
for all we know, you know, you never know.

295
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,439
He may have helped even one or two
people to get to safety or, you

296
00:15:43,439 --> 00:15:46,650
know, get further ahead in, in,
in what they were trying to do.

297
00:15:46,949 --> 00:15:49,530
I think that's a, that's a
very important fact to realize.

298
00:15:49,530 --> 00:15:51,390
We don't all have to have our
names in the history books.

299
00:15:52,170 --> 00:15:54,360
To have, uh, to make a difference.

300
00:15:54,420 --> 00:16:00,270
And, and sometimes small changes or making
those little voices, you know, matter

301
00:16:00,510 --> 00:16:03,450
can matter to a couple people that could
change something else, that could change

302
00:16:03,450 --> 00:16:04,560
the world, that can change anything.

303
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,090
You never know what's what's gonna happen.

304
00:16:06,510 --> 00:16:06,630
Mm-hmm.

305
00:16:06,870 --> 00:16:06,990
Right.

306
00:16:06,990 --> 00:16:08,130
You, you, you just never know.

307
00:16:08,130 --> 00:16:12,720
Now, you know, with that type of
mindset, that having that history

308
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,470
and knowing of that history going
into law, a lot of people will go

309
00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:20,670
into, I, I don't think I've ever had,
uh, a friend of mine go into law.

310
00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:21,480
Friends of mine go into law.

311
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:22,890
That wasn't like corporate law.

312
00:16:22,890 --> 00:16:23,670
It was all business.

313
00:16:23,670 --> 00:16:24,840
It's usually business focused.

314
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,870
That's, I feel like that's a,
a popular thing to go into.

315
00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:29,190
'cause it's, it's stable.

316
00:16:29,190 --> 00:16:31,740
It's, you know, you can make
pretty good money out of it.

317
00:16:31,740 --> 00:16:34,650
And there are some that go into
environmental law and human

318
00:16:34,650 --> 00:16:35,820
rights law, but not often.

319
00:16:35,820 --> 00:16:40,890
So what was it for you when
you were choosing that?

320
00:16:40,890 --> 00:16:45,810
Like, tell me the process of like choosing
it and why you would choose to follow

321
00:16:45,810 --> 00:16:48,300
human rights law, if that's what it was.

322
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:49,590
Or, or if it was a different type of law.

323
00:16:50,010 --> 00:16:53,910
I think most people don't want to go
into human rights and environ law because

324
00:16:53,910 --> 00:16:56,615
it's sort of a life of pen for sure.

325
00:16:56,645 --> 00:16:56,935
Yeah.

326
00:16:57,115 --> 00:17:02,010
You can make so much money working
for a law firm, but um, you know,

327
00:17:02,010 --> 00:17:06,869
even people who do go into law firms
will often take on pro bono cases.

328
00:17:07,470 --> 00:17:07,589
Yeah.

329
00:17:07,589 --> 00:17:10,050
And amazingly good things
for the world that way.

330
00:17:10,530 --> 00:17:13,260
So I don't feel like it's
an either or situation.

331
00:17:13,260 --> 00:17:18,450
But yeah, for me, I, I, I did once work
at a corporate law firm for eight weeks.

332
00:17:18,690 --> 00:17:19,650
Um, and then that was it.

333
00:17:20,915 --> 00:17:23,639
It was just enough money so
that I could go work in the work

334
00:17:23,639 --> 00:17:24,930
crimes space that I wanted to.

335
00:17:25,915 --> 00:17:26,694
Almost nothing.

336
00:17:27,165 --> 00:17:27,454
Yeah.

337
00:17:28,139 --> 00:17:30,840
Um, yeah, I, I did that
very, very briefly.

338
00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,360
Um, Sullivan Cromwell.

339
00:17:33,420 --> 00:17:37,650
Um, yeah, it was a weird, weird
side moment in my life, but I just

340
00:17:37,650 --> 00:17:41,370
always knew that I wanted to do
human rights and environmental work.

341
00:17:41,430 --> 00:17:43,830
Um, especially human rights
work when I was younger.

342
00:17:44,250 --> 00:17:45,450
That was just, um.

343
00:17:47,355 --> 00:17:49,935
Like, not even a, a doubt
in my mind because Right.

344
00:17:50,175 --> 00:17:56,505
I just thought to myself, you know,
Andrew, why is it that there are

345
00:17:56,505 --> 00:17:58,305
these people who are just like me?

346
00:17:58,665 --> 00:18:00,645
Literally, there's like no difference.

347
00:18:00,735 --> 00:18:00,825
Mm-hmm.

348
00:18:01,275 --> 00:18:03,405
They have been born in my shoes.

349
00:18:03,435 --> 00:18:05,535
They would be the ones
going to Yale Law School.

350
00:18:05,865 --> 00:18:11,415
Why is it that these people
are earning under $2 a day?

351
00:18:11,775 --> 00:18:11,865
Mm-hmm.

352
00:18:12,105 --> 00:18:14,565
Are being, are being tortured.

353
00:18:15,524 --> 00:18:18,105
You know, this, it's so unfair.

354
00:18:18,254 --> 00:18:22,395
I just don't want to live in a world with
that level of unfairness without for sure.

355
00:18:22,754 --> 00:18:23,115
Something about it.

356
00:18:24,675 --> 00:18:25,035
Yeah.

357
00:18:25,035 --> 00:18:28,935
And, but it's a heavy toll to
take, to take on those cases.

358
00:18:28,935 --> 00:18:31,365
To work on those cases to
Definitely, definitely.

359
00:18:31,365 --> 00:18:31,785
Yeah.

360
00:18:31,785 --> 00:18:34,754
It's, I remember when I worked in
Iraq, I kind of stopped sleeping.

361
00:18:35,895 --> 00:18:35,896
Yeah.

362
00:18:35,896 --> 00:18:39,315
And also when I worked in this,
uh, civil war in, in West Africa,

363
00:18:39,315 --> 00:18:43,125
I, um, my hair started falling
out and I lost like five kilos.

364
00:18:43,575 --> 00:18:45,705
It was not a, I bet healthy time.

365
00:18:45,705 --> 00:18:46,274
Definitely.

366
00:18:46,274 --> 00:18:48,524
It's hard sometimes to
do this kind of work.

367
00:18:48,524 --> 00:18:48,915
It's true.

368
00:18:49,065 --> 00:18:55,605
What allows you to survive those
times, like mentally and emotionally?

369
00:18:56,055 --> 00:18:56,715
That's very easy.

370
00:18:56,770 --> 00:18:57,060
Love.

371
00:18:57,060 --> 00:18:58,420
Love to Right.

372
00:18:59,460 --> 00:19:01,620
I have such wonderful friends and family.

373
00:19:01,620 --> 00:19:04,740
My husband is the best
husband in the whole world.

374
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,600
He's like, my whole support
team rolled into one person.

375
00:19:10,170 --> 00:19:12,510
If you could have like queer
eye for the straight guy, he

376
00:19:12,510 --> 00:19:14,610
is like Brazilian eye for it.

377
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,170
And you said he works for the
United Nations as well, right?

378
00:19:19,175 --> 00:19:19,335
He does.

379
00:19:19,335 --> 00:19:19,615
He does?

380
00:19:19,615 --> 00:19:19,815
Yeah.

381
00:19:20,005 --> 00:19:20,295
Okay.

382
00:19:20,295 --> 00:19:21,750
So he works for the United Nations.

383
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:25,350
So he's, you know, obviously into,
is it the same line of work, like

384
00:19:25,410 --> 00:19:29,280
human rights or, you know, just
helping out different countries.

385
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,460
Like I know I have a friend who
works in this, in this type of work

386
00:19:32,460 --> 00:19:37,590
and he's been in, uh, in Syria and
in like some pretty heavy places,

387
00:19:37,590 --> 00:19:39,330
you know, like civil war places.

388
00:19:39,330 --> 00:19:40,920
That could be pretty, pretty dangerous.

389
00:19:41,324 --> 00:19:44,054
So it's connected, but my
husband works in public health.

390
00:19:44,054 --> 00:19:45,254
He's a public health hero.

391
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:45,570
Okay.

392
00:19:46,514 --> 00:19:46,845
Okay.

393
00:19:46,845 --> 00:19:46,846
Yeah.

394
00:19:46,846 --> 00:19:50,685
And so, um, you know, if you think
about how this is all interconnected,

395
00:19:50,685 --> 00:19:54,915
Andrew, you know, we're deforesting
the world at a rapid clip.

396
00:19:55,425 --> 00:19:55,514
Mm-hmm.

397
00:19:55,754 --> 00:19:58,004
That's something that I've worked
on at Greenpeace and Mighty

398
00:19:58,004 --> 00:19:59,504
Earth and now coffee watch.

399
00:19:59,895 --> 00:20:07,274
But when we deforest, not only does
it knock all our rainfall off kilter,

400
00:20:07,514 --> 00:20:10,485
turbocharges, climate change, most
people don't know this, but a third

401
00:20:10,485 --> 00:20:12,254
of climate change is from agriculture.

402
00:20:12,735 --> 00:20:13,064
Right.

403
00:20:13,425 --> 00:20:16,784
Um, it does crazy stuff to our oceans.

404
00:20:17,490 --> 00:20:20,250
Um, it just crazy stuff
to our whole planet.

405
00:20:20,669 --> 00:20:24,389
But it also means that we're going
further and further into the heart

406
00:20:24,419 --> 00:20:29,189
of where wildlife used to have safe
habitats without contact with humans.

407
00:20:29,460 --> 00:20:33,629
And so the closer we go into
these wild areas, the more we get

408
00:20:33,629 --> 00:20:36,780
exposed to new novel pathogens.

409
00:20:36,784 --> 00:20:37,195
Mm-hmm.

410
00:20:37,455 --> 00:20:41,460
And the more we have factory farms,
which is the other thing that I worked

411
00:20:41,460 --> 00:20:45,419
on a lot at Greenpeace and Mighty Earth,
you know, these terrible factory farms.

412
00:20:45,419 --> 00:20:47,639
You squeeze lots of animals
together and mm-hmm.

413
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,790
Dirty, filthy, unhygienic,
horrible conditions.

414
00:20:50,790 --> 00:20:52,139
It's basically torture.

415
00:20:52,409 --> 00:20:52,620
Yeah.

416
00:20:52,625 --> 00:20:53,195
Before we kill them.

417
00:20:53,490 --> 00:20:55,770
And which also by the way,
is terrible for oceans.

418
00:20:55,770 --> 00:20:59,610
'cause all their poop goes straight
into the ocean and creates these

419
00:20:59,610 --> 00:21:01,830
enormous dead zones that same.

420
00:21:02,415 --> 00:21:03,915
Um, Catho system.

421
00:21:03,915 --> 00:21:09,195
These, these, these concentrated farming
operations also is like a Petri dish for

422
00:21:09,435 --> 00:21:12,735
bird flu and swine flu and crazy diseases.

423
00:21:12,735 --> 00:21:18,375
And so in a way, the environmental stuff
that I work on is also rolling the dice.

424
00:21:18,375 --> 00:21:21,135
These, these horrible crimes of
deforestation, factory farming.

425
00:21:21,135 --> 00:21:27,190
The way we do it now, it rolls the dice
for these spectacular diseases like COVID.

426
00:21:27,915 --> 00:21:29,620
Like HIV.

427
00:21:29,879 --> 00:21:30,300
Mm-hmm.

428
00:21:30,409 --> 00:21:32,085
Like bird flu, like swine flu.

429
00:21:32,175 --> 00:21:35,745
And then you have these heroes, like my
husband, who are trying to pick up the

430
00:21:35,745 --> 00:21:39,885
pieces and save everyone and vaccinate
people and get the medicine and the

431
00:21:39,885 --> 00:21:44,774
tests out all over to stop us from all
dying in large numbers essentially.

432
00:21:45,345 --> 00:21:50,715
They're doing the mop-up operations
to compensate for corporations totally

433
00:21:50,715 --> 00:21:56,265
irresponsible behavior that activists like
myself have not been able to curb or stop.

434
00:21:56,805 --> 00:21:59,475
So in a way I or hold him
accountable for, right?

435
00:21:59,475 --> 00:22:00,320
Like that's a hold him accountable.

436
00:22:00,340 --> 00:22:03,465
So I think that is connected to my work.

437
00:22:03,495 --> 00:22:08,925
He's like the emergency mop up guys that
come and try to save humanity when we've

438
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,120
made ourselves sick by killing our planet.

439
00:22:11,190 --> 00:22:11,480
Yeah.

440
00:22:12,015 --> 00:22:15,285
That, uh, I mean it's, it is great
to be able to, to work with somebody

441
00:22:15,285 --> 00:22:18,525
like that or to live with somebody
who works in such a, a, an interesting

442
00:22:18,525 --> 00:22:21,015
field like that as you do as well.

443
00:22:21,345 --> 00:22:24,645
Um, now, you know, you work in this,
you, you mentioned you work in this,

444
00:22:24,645 --> 00:22:29,535
this, this heavy, heavy, uh, intense
sort of field of, of human rights,

445
00:22:29,535 --> 00:22:32,205
looking at war crimes and people
being tortured and, and so forth.

446
00:22:32,295 --> 00:22:35,955
And then you start moving a
little bit more environmental, um.

447
00:22:36,675 --> 00:22:38,145
You know, it's a, this, it's a switch.

448
00:22:38,325 --> 00:22:42,105
I can see the switch because a lot of
the en environmental and conservation

449
00:22:42,375 --> 00:22:45,945
needs and issues that we're facing,
a lot of them are human rights.

450
00:22:46,185 --> 00:22:49,425
Uh, they're human rights
violations, fishery slaves.

451
00:22:49,425 --> 00:22:53,595
As you mentioned, when you worked,
uh, in Asia, there was, um, there was,

452
00:22:53,595 --> 00:22:56,955
there's, you know, fishery slaves as
we talked about on this podcast before.

453
00:22:57,255 --> 00:23:01,725
Um, and, and so that's, was that the,
sort of the general move as you started

454
00:23:01,725 --> 00:23:05,295
to look at human rights, these files
would start to come up where you work

455
00:23:05,295 --> 00:23:08,625
at Greenpeace and you're like, okay,
let's start looking at these different

456
00:23:08,625 --> 00:23:12,645
aspects of conservation issues and
how they, they relate to human rights.

457
00:23:12,915 --> 00:23:13,425
Yeah.

458
00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:15,795
Andrews, this is such a
deep and good question.

459
00:23:16,395 --> 00:23:21,195
I think that human rights and
environmental problems often tend to be

460
00:23:21,195 --> 00:23:25,395
the two sides of the exact same coin.

461
00:23:26,385 --> 00:23:29,715
Mm. One of the most fascinating things
that we found out when I was at Greenpeace

462
00:23:29,715 --> 00:23:35,235
when I was um, our Southeast Asia research
director, was that all these vessels.

463
00:23:36,014 --> 00:23:41,205
That were the most
implicated in IUU fishing.

464
00:23:41,205 --> 00:23:41,655
Yep.

465
00:23:41,955 --> 00:23:45,794
In pirate fishing and overfishing and
fishing juveniles and fishing out of

466
00:23:45,794 --> 00:23:47,925
season fishing in marine protected areas.

467
00:23:48,314 --> 00:23:52,514
Basically the vessels that
are trashing the ocean

468
00:23:54,735 --> 00:23:59,175
disproportionately, they also had some
of the worst human rights violations.

469
00:23:59,175 --> 00:23:59,264
Mm-hmm.

470
00:24:00,645 --> 00:24:03,794
They were just floating prisons.

471
00:24:04,125 --> 00:24:04,395
Hmm.

472
00:24:05,355 --> 00:24:10,125
And not just with seafood slaves, but
in order to keep people in that level

473
00:24:10,125 --> 00:24:15,375
of servitude, they would deploy immense
amounts of violence, torture, killings,

474
00:24:15,375 --> 00:24:18,524
threats, confiscating people's papers.

475
00:24:18,855 --> 00:24:19,034
Right.

476
00:24:19,034 --> 00:24:20,655
And beating them.

477
00:24:20,685 --> 00:24:21,465
You know, this is.

478
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,930
But I remember I was working in Bangkok
with the Oceans team there, and my

479
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:34,020
flatmate was this fantastic reporter for
the Guardian who broke open this landmark

480
00:24:34,020 --> 00:24:36,960
first ever, um, expose of seafood slavery.

481
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,850
The Guardian is like at the heart of that.

482
00:24:38,850 --> 00:24:42,420
And then after Guardian Ian Orbin
at the New York Times did some work

483
00:24:42,420 --> 00:24:44,040
and AP did some fantastic work.

484
00:24:44,100 --> 00:24:45,810
Um, and then it sort of spread.

485
00:24:46,110 --> 00:24:50,160
But I remember what I would, I would
come back to work from home from

486
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,400
talking with my flat name Kate,
this wonderful journalist, Kate.

487
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,940
I wish she could have gotten like every
medal for best journalism in the world.

488
00:24:57,630 --> 00:25:00,420
Um, I would, I would go to the
office after talking to Kate.

489
00:25:00,420 --> 00:25:01,260
I'd be like, guys.

490
00:25:01,830 --> 00:25:06,300
We have got to do more about human
rights abuses at, in the high seas

491
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:11,159
and, and in all these ports because
the penalties for the environmental

492
00:25:11,159 --> 00:25:14,250
stuff are so low, but the penalties
for the human rights abuses are higher.

493
00:25:14,250 --> 00:25:16,245
And these, mm-hmm.

494
00:25:16,330 --> 00:25:18,780
Let's start working on
this in a holistic way.

495
00:25:19,169 --> 00:25:23,310
And I remember it was very similar,
the deforestation problems for palm

496
00:25:23,310 --> 00:25:27,000
oil and pulp and paper, they often
went, I mean, of course they're

497
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,409
terrible for the environment.

498
00:25:28,740 --> 00:25:29,159
It's it.

499
00:25:29,699 --> 00:25:31,050
Carbon catastrophe.

500
00:25:31,050 --> 00:25:32,969
It's a biodiversity catastrophe.

501
00:25:33,179 --> 00:25:38,370
I have a beautiful picture of an orangutan
mother and baby up on the wall behind me.

502
00:25:38,370 --> 00:25:41,729
You know, it's like the number one killer
of orangutans is palm oil republic.

503
00:25:42,239 --> 00:25:42,629
Yep.

504
00:25:43,685 --> 00:25:46,560
It's, you know, they set these
huge raging forest fires that

505
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,030
you can see from outer space.

506
00:25:48,149 --> 00:25:52,379
The smoke like travels to China to the
point where the Chinese complain to

507
00:25:52,379 --> 00:25:54,179
the Indonesian authorities about air.

508
00:25:54,179 --> 00:25:56,820
If China's calling you to complain
about air, yeah, about air quality,

509
00:25:57,330 --> 00:25:58,530
you're doing something very wrong.

510
00:25:58,530 --> 00:25:59,070
Seriously.

511
00:25:59,070 --> 00:26:02,580
But it's not just a carbon bomb
and an air pollution problem

512
00:26:02,580 --> 00:26:04,350
of like airpocalypse now.

513
00:26:04,649 --> 00:26:08,669
It's not just killing orangutans and
driving immense biodiversity loss.

514
00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:14,550
Also these fires and this deforestation
and pea training, it harmed so

515
00:26:14,550 --> 00:26:17,729
many indigenous communities and
forest dependent communities.

516
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:22,199
And then, you know, as they would resist,
people would be violently mistreated.

517
00:26:22,905 --> 00:26:23,895
Threatened.

518
00:26:24,135 --> 00:26:27,435
You know, we could see that the
human rights problems that go hand

519
00:26:27,435 --> 00:26:30,675
in hand with the deforestation
on, on land as they do at sea.

520
00:26:31,215 --> 00:26:34,695
So I believe that, you know, it's
the two sides of the same coin.

521
00:26:34,695 --> 00:26:38,505
And I see it again now in coffee
where you've got kids and slaves

522
00:26:38,505 --> 00:26:41,205
and forced labor and extreme
poverty on the social side.

523
00:26:41,925 --> 00:26:45,825
And then on the environmental
side, deforestation, horrible

524
00:26:45,825 --> 00:26:46,935
overuse of chemicals.

525
00:26:46,935 --> 00:26:49,065
Often hhp is highly hazardous chemicals.

526
00:26:49,065 --> 00:26:49,950
And where do you think they go?

527
00:26:50,055 --> 00:26:50,625
The ocean.

528
00:26:51,135 --> 00:26:51,945
And our bodies.

529
00:26:52,785 --> 00:26:53,565
And our rivers.

530
00:26:54,405 --> 00:26:54,465
Yeah.

531
00:26:54,465 --> 00:27:00,765
And not just that, but plastics from
cups and pods, and not just deforestation

532
00:27:00,765 --> 00:27:04,425
and plastics and misuse of water
and chemicals, but also we're doing

533
00:27:04,425 --> 00:27:08,685
things in monocultures that should be
beautiful Regenerative agroforestry.

534
00:27:08,955 --> 00:27:13,155
So with coffee, as with what I
saw when I was at Cream piece and

535
00:27:13,155 --> 00:27:17,595
Mighty Earth, environmental and
human right stuff go hand in hand.

536
00:27:17,595 --> 00:27:17,865
Yeah.

537
00:27:17,865 --> 00:27:20,025
If you wanna fix the planet.

538
00:27:20,070 --> 00:27:23,250
You gotta do it in this holistic way.

539
00:27:23,610 --> 00:27:23,909
Yeah.

540
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,629
Now you're, you know, you're trying
to help out a, an entire industry.

541
00:27:27,629 --> 00:27:31,020
Not just the farmers, not just the
people who are affected by this.

542
00:27:31,020 --> 00:27:33,870
Not just the environment, even
the industry, the people who

543
00:27:33,870 --> 00:27:34,950
are making profits off of this.

544
00:27:34,950 --> 00:27:37,020
Like, let's make profit,
but let's do it properly.

545
00:27:37,409 --> 00:27:42,330
You, you identify this happening,
you know, looking at deforestation

546
00:27:42,330 --> 00:27:44,850
through your work and you see coffee.

547
00:27:45,149 --> 00:27:45,659
Okay.

548
00:27:45,750 --> 00:27:48,450
The coffee industry, who
is doing what about it?

549
00:27:48,450 --> 00:27:51,179
You're probably looking around and
being like, what is being done?

550
00:27:51,540 --> 00:27:57,210
You find one paper, and that was written
in 2007 by WWF, as you mentioned before.

551
00:27:57,210 --> 00:27:59,189
We, we recorded, uh.

552
00:28:00,195 --> 00:28:03,554
You know, talking about how
deforestation in the, in the coffee

553
00:28:03,554 --> 00:28:05,145
industry is, is a huge problem.

554
00:28:05,534 --> 00:28:07,185
Not many people are covering this.

555
00:28:07,185 --> 00:28:09,885
When did, when did you start
to discover this problem?

556
00:28:10,215 --> 00:28:14,715
And then when did that turn
into the idea and, and sort of

557
00:28:14,715 --> 00:28:16,365
brainchild of, of coffee watch?

558
00:28:17,415 --> 00:28:18,554
So, this is a great question.

559
00:28:18,705 --> 00:28:23,115
When I was working at Greenpeace,
I already knew that coffee was the

560
00:28:23,115 --> 00:28:25,304
number six driver of deforestation.

561
00:28:25,399 --> 00:28:25,689
Okay.

562
00:28:27,645 --> 00:28:33,044
And a lot of NGOs, Greenpeace, WWF
Amnesty, so many NGOs got together and

563
00:28:33,044 --> 00:28:37,935
pushed with a lot of parliamentarians to
pass this law in the European Union called

564
00:28:37,935 --> 00:28:44,324
the EU Deforestation Regulation to bar all
of the top seven drivers of deforestation.

565
00:28:44,324 --> 00:28:44,594
Gotcha.

566
00:28:45,014 --> 00:28:45,524
Makes sense.

567
00:28:45,915 --> 00:28:48,554
You could think of it as like the
seven deadly sins for forests.

568
00:28:48,705 --> 00:28:48,794
Right.

569
00:28:49,574 --> 00:28:52,665
Um, and Greenpeace works
a lot on the big four.

570
00:28:53,385 --> 00:28:53,504
Mm-hmm.

571
00:28:53,774 --> 00:28:56,270
But the numbers five, six, and
seven got really short rif.

572
00:28:56,940 --> 00:29:01,260
So when I went to Mighty Earth after
Greenpeace, I worked a lot on cocoa

573
00:29:01,260 --> 00:29:05,040
and rubber, which are numbers five
and seven of coco deforestation.

574
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,670
But it was just niggling me and
niggling me and niggling me.

575
00:29:08,670 --> 00:29:10,290
I wanted to work on coffee.

576
00:29:10,740 --> 00:29:13,410
All these scientists kept saying
is the number six driver, but then

577
00:29:13,410 --> 00:29:15,030
there's no NGOs working on it really.

578
00:29:15,030 --> 00:29:17,100
And then I came across one paper.

579
00:29:17,250 --> 00:29:21,210
Yeah, which blew my mind.

580
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:30,300
The WWF had investigated how coffee was
threatening tiger habitat in Indonesian

581
00:29:30,330 --> 00:29:33,629
park, elephant, tiger, and rhino habitat.

582
00:29:33,629 --> 00:29:34,290
It's one of the worst.

583
00:29:34,980 --> 00:29:35,404
Wouldn't think about that important.

584
00:29:35,764 --> 00:29:40,050
National parks and coffee was
trying deforestation there.

585
00:29:40,805 --> 00:29:42,645
I was like, what is going on?

586
00:29:44,185 --> 00:29:47,400
And then I started digging deeper and.

587
00:29:48,210 --> 00:29:52,920
I realized, oh my God, this
is a problem of your portions.

588
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,560
I mean, it's not one of the big
four, but it's one of the seven

589
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,960
deadly worst commodities for horse.

590
00:29:58,530 --> 00:29:59,940
Nobody is working on it.

591
00:29:59,940 --> 00:30:00,420
Really?

592
00:30:01,380 --> 00:30:04,350
WWF did that one beautiful thing
and then they never did anything

593
00:30:04,350 --> 00:30:06,060
again on coffee and forest.

594
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,300
So I decided to start
Coffee watch at that time.

595
00:30:10,260 --> 00:30:16,200
And then I realized, wow, it's
driving deforestation in all the

596
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,070
forest frontiers in Cameroon and
the whole Great Lakes region.

597
00:30:20,340 --> 00:30:20,430
Mm-hmm.

598
00:30:20,670 --> 00:30:24,990
And Chicken Z Habitat, bonobo,
gorilla Habitat, Andro, these

599
00:30:24,990 --> 00:30:26,340
are our closest cousins.

600
00:30:27,270 --> 00:30:27,900
Yeah.

601
00:30:27,900 --> 00:30:27,960
Yeah.

602
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,130
And then one day I was at the beach,
uh, with my wonderful husband,

603
00:30:32,460 --> 00:30:38,070
um, and I just looked at all
these stupid effing coffee cups.

604
00:30:38,460 --> 00:30:38,670
Mm-hmm.

605
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,030
And it was a beautiful
beach and I just thought.

606
00:30:43,005 --> 00:30:43,665
I hate my life.

607
00:30:43,695 --> 00:30:45,315
I started picking up all the coffee cups.

608
00:30:45,315 --> 00:30:48,255
I, and it felt like such
an act of futility, right?

609
00:30:48,255 --> 00:30:49,245
'cause there's so many of them.

610
00:30:49,395 --> 00:30:53,985
As I was going through this garbage
picking up episode in Thailand, just

611
00:30:53,985 --> 00:30:56,085
sort of like rage cleaning the beach.

612
00:30:56,685 --> 00:31:00,165
I thought, wow, it's not just
deforestation, it's plastics.

613
00:31:01,185 --> 00:31:07,575
Mm. And it wasn't until much later,
Andrew, that I processed how many

614
00:31:07,605 --> 00:31:12,105
chemicals the coffee industry is using
and how much it relies on monoculture.

615
00:31:12,130 --> 00:31:12,550
Mm-hmm.

616
00:31:12,630 --> 00:31:16,515
So I think my resolve just kept deepening
and deepening with every discovery.

617
00:31:17,385 --> 00:31:17,625
Yeah.

618
00:31:17,625 --> 00:31:22,725
Well, and it seems like it's,
it was hitting all the bad parts

619
00:31:22,755 --> 00:31:26,745
of affecting the environment at
every point in the supply chain.

620
00:31:26,745 --> 00:31:30,465
So you, you, from the production,
like growing to the production

621
00:31:30,465 --> 00:31:33,735
aspect, uh, to the retail aspect.

622
00:31:34,095 --> 00:31:37,455
And then to the consumer aspect,
it was hitting everything, not only

623
00:31:37,455 --> 00:31:40,395
from deforestation, but looking
at lack of biodiversity with the

624
00:31:40,395 --> 00:31:45,225
monocultures, the use of pesticides
and, and chemicals to grow the coffee,

625
00:31:45,645 --> 00:31:48,465
the packaging to sell the coffee.

626
00:31:48,465 --> 00:31:52,785
Then you got, you know, the packaging
to sell and consume the coffee, and then

627
00:31:52,785 --> 00:31:57,465
it goes into the, to the environment,
whether it be on land or at sea or in a

628
00:31:57,465 --> 00:31:59,925
river, or all of the, all of the above.

629
00:32:00,345 --> 00:32:00,435
Yes.

630
00:32:00,435 --> 00:32:04,095
It's, it's, it must've been devastating
for you to, as you start to realize

631
00:32:04,155 --> 00:32:08,355
where this is at and, and you know,
you're, you're one person or a few people

632
00:32:08,355 --> 00:32:11,715
who are, who are starting to recognize
this and, and, and be aware of this.

633
00:32:11,715 --> 00:32:15,435
Even though this has been happening
for a while, not many people are, were

634
00:32:15,435 --> 00:32:16,575
working on these types of problems.

635
00:32:16,575 --> 00:32:18,675
Maybe as a, a larger aspect.

636
00:32:18,675 --> 00:32:20,205
'cause we've known coffee cups.

637
00:32:20,235 --> 00:32:23,325
I know here in Canada we've known coffee
cups have been a problem, you know, out.

638
00:32:24,030 --> 00:32:27,600
When people, you see them over,
like people throw them out, but they

639
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:28,709
don't always make it to the trash.

640
00:32:28,709 --> 00:32:30,840
They'll, they'll, you'll see
them on the streets sometimes.

641
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,179
You'll see them in the, in the lakes here.

642
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,449
And sometimes, and, and
obviously not good, uh, in, in

643
00:32:36,449 --> 00:32:37,949
a long, in a lot of that way.

644
00:32:38,189 --> 00:32:41,340
Um, but when it's, it's
kind of interesting when

645
00:32:41,340 --> 00:32:42,570
you think of coffee itself.

646
00:32:42,570 --> 00:32:47,520
Like I, I, I'm not a coffee drinker,
but I don't know anybody who's like, oh,

647
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,230
it's so bad that I'm drinking coffee.

648
00:32:49,919 --> 00:32:51,389
It's so bad for the environment though.

649
00:32:51,540 --> 00:32:55,919
Like, you know, like, you'll see
that with like pop or soda, right?

650
00:32:55,919 --> 00:32:55,980
Yeah.

651
00:32:55,980 --> 00:32:57,270
And you'll see that with alcohol.

652
00:32:57,300 --> 00:32:59,459
'cause you know, alcohol
has its known effects.

653
00:32:59,790 --> 00:33:03,990
Uh, but with coffee, it's like every time
someone's drinking, it's like a relief.

654
00:33:04,230 --> 00:33:04,590
You know?

655
00:33:04,665 --> 00:33:06,629
It's like you're getting
that caffeine hit.

656
00:33:06,990 --> 00:33:11,070
Uh, if you drink coffee, like
there are, there are, uh, studies

657
00:33:11,070 --> 00:33:14,040
that show that it's healthy for
you if you drink it in moderation.

658
00:33:14,595 --> 00:33:19,215
And when you think about the production
and the sale, I guess from, from my,

659
00:33:19,215 --> 00:33:21,015
I'm, I'm, this is very anecdotal.

660
00:33:21,285 --> 00:33:23,595
I always think of people
buying it fair trade.

661
00:33:23,595 --> 00:33:26,925
I always think about people buying
it where, you know, the, the, the,

662
00:33:27,225 --> 00:33:31,395
the agriculture aspect, the farmers
benefiting because it's part of this

663
00:33:31,455 --> 00:33:33,825
fair trade, fair use type of system.

664
00:33:34,125 --> 00:33:37,605
And most people want that because that
tends to be the better coffee anyway.

665
00:33:37,605 --> 00:33:40,365
It's, a lot of people are using their
coffee, like they drink their wine.

666
00:33:40,365 --> 00:33:41,295
It's gotta be unique.

667
00:33:41,295 --> 00:33:45,195
They want to taste everything about it,
you know, all the way from grinding it

668
00:33:45,195 --> 00:33:46,935
all down and, and, and then drinking it.

669
00:33:48,135 --> 00:33:54,465
Why is there such this disparity of
information of the, what, everything

670
00:33:54,465 --> 00:33:58,005
I talked about in terms of the, the
creation and the production of this

671
00:33:58,005 --> 00:34:00,135
to the selling to the consumer.

672
00:34:00,525 --> 00:34:06,465
Not really realizing the, the amount
of problems that are occurring.

673
00:34:06,465 --> 00:34:09,045
Not just because of one individual
doing it, but because of it.

674
00:34:09,045 --> 00:34:11,625
Whole industry supplying
these individuals with.

675
00:34:12,075 --> 00:34:15,255
You know, great coffee Andrew.

676
00:34:15,345 --> 00:34:20,295
I think that there has been
a giant consumer fraud.

677
00:34:20,355 --> 00:34:25,755
Mm. Perpetrated on coffee
drinkers, both by the industry

678
00:34:25,755 --> 00:34:27,645
and by certification schemes.

679
00:34:27,645 --> 00:34:28,335
Actually.

680
00:34:28,605 --> 00:34:29,055
Interesting.

681
00:34:29,055 --> 00:34:31,365
I was shocked.

682
00:34:31,365 --> 00:34:31,785
Yeah.

683
00:34:31,785 --> 00:34:34,905
When I started Coffee Watch and I
started digging into the certification

684
00:34:34,905 --> 00:34:40,065
schemes to discover that there is
not a single certification scheme,

685
00:34:40,305 --> 00:34:47,025
not one that guarantees a living
income price for coffee farmers or a

686
00:34:47,025 --> 00:34:49,845
living income wage for farm workers.

687
00:34:50,715 --> 00:34:54,165
There are 25 million coffee
farmers in the world and a hundred

688
00:34:54,165 --> 00:34:56,535
million farm workers, give or take.

689
00:34:57,014 --> 00:35:01,815
So if you add in their dependence,
there's like several kids, right?

690
00:35:01,815 --> 00:35:07,470
Per farmer and farm worker, we're talking
about, well north of 200 million people.

691
00:35:08,505 --> 00:35:12,495
Almost all of whom live in poverty,
most of whom live in extreme poverty.

692
00:35:12,825 --> 00:35:13,185
Right.

693
00:35:13,395 --> 00:35:14,055
With coffee.

694
00:35:14,445 --> 00:35:14,715
Right.

695
00:35:14,925 --> 00:35:17,985
And actually the certification
schemes are not fixing it.

696
00:35:18,645 --> 00:35:23,475
Most of the certification
schemes do not require that you

697
00:35:23,475 --> 00:35:25,395
be chemical free, like organic.

698
00:35:26,355 --> 00:35:31,845
And to my knowledge, the certification
schemes do not force the companies

699
00:35:31,845 --> 00:35:37,665
whose coffee they certify to deal with
packaging in an appropriate fashion.

700
00:35:38,055 --> 00:35:46,575
Even though we know that there are an
estimated 500 billion disposable cups used

701
00:35:46,580 --> 00:35:49,185
annually, many of which are for coffee.

702
00:35:49,605 --> 00:35:49,815
Yeah.

703
00:35:49,815 --> 00:35:50,295
That's million.

704
00:35:50,300 --> 00:35:50,930
With a bee.

705
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:52,010
With a bee.

706
00:35:52,695 --> 00:35:56,055
And even though we also know that

707
00:35:58,785 --> 00:36:06,165
we think there are hundreds
of millions of pods.

708
00:36:06,585 --> 00:36:06,795
Yeah.

709
00:36:07,545 --> 00:36:11,595
Oh yeah, none of which are
compostable and recyclable

710
00:36:12,825 --> 00:36:15,315
being appropriately disposed of.

711
00:36:15,465 --> 00:36:18,975
I mean, unless you think disposing
of it in our ocean is appropriate,

712
00:36:21,495 --> 00:36:28,215
and most certifications don't really
require the coffee to be grown

713
00:36:28,485 --> 00:36:30,975
in a serious agroforestry system.

714
00:36:31,875 --> 00:36:34,365
There's a difference between
monoculture and agroforestry, okay.

715
00:36:35,265 --> 00:36:35,565
Right.

716
00:36:35,565 --> 00:36:39,615
And if you're gonna have a chemical
free agroforestry system that's like

717
00:36:39,615 --> 00:36:43,154
a regenerative system with lots of
trees mixed in with the coffee, you

718
00:36:43,154 --> 00:36:45,045
want multiple different canopy heights.

719
00:36:45,045 --> 00:36:47,595
You wanna have native
species and not invasives.

720
00:36:48,015 --> 00:36:51,524
You want it to be bird friendly and
bat friendly and butterfly friendly.

721
00:36:51,524 --> 00:36:55,725
And you know, if you do agroforestry
coffee, it's got 19 times more

722
00:36:55,725 --> 00:36:57,615
biodiversity and double the carbon.

723
00:36:58,004 --> 00:36:59,444
It anchors rainfall.

724
00:36:59,654 --> 00:37:01,455
It's not a poison machine.

725
00:37:01,665 --> 00:37:04,904
It means you're just taking
pressure off the oceans.

726
00:37:05,174 --> 00:37:09,884
Why is it that the certification
schemes don't require coffee to treat?

727
00:37:09,884 --> 00:37:10,845
Its effluence.

728
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:14,595
The coffee industry just dumps
effluence straight into rivers.

729
00:37:15,015 --> 00:37:15,495
That's it.

730
00:37:15,674 --> 00:37:16,035
There's like.

731
00:37:16,305 --> 00:37:20,115
A handful of companies that treat their
effluence, not even a hundred percent.

732
00:37:20,384 --> 00:37:23,879
The ones that do are like, I
treat 80% of your effluence.

733
00:37:23,879 --> 00:37:25,839
And I'm like, yeah, that's
like a, that's a flex B.

734
00:37:28,339 --> 00:37:33,015
So when you think about how like
half of global coffee is certified,

735
00:37:33,225 --> 00:37:37,665
yeah, but the certification schemes
do not play a living income price.

736
00:37:37,665 --> 00:37:41,115
Do not deal with packaging to stop
everything from winding up in our

737
00:37:41,115 --> 00:37:47,745
oceans or horrible landfills do
not deal with chemical overuse

738
00:37:47,745 --> 00:37:50,055
and misuse and effluent treatment.

739
00:37:50,055 --> 00:37:54,915
Do not require really good, robust
agroforestry systems that work

740
00:37:54,975 --> 00:37:57,765
for carbon, for biodiversity,
for farmer food security, for

741
00:37:57,765 --> 00:37:59,055
farmer income diversification.

742
00:37:59,055 --> 00:38:03,015
You realize it's like
this giant consumer fraud.

743
00:38:03,225 --> 00:38:07,424
That's why huge, most perfectly
nice people think they're

744
00:38:07,424 --> 00:38:08,865
drinking something good.

745
00:38:09,420 --> 00:38:13,049
And they're doing their best,
and then they'd be shocked to

746
00:38:13,049 --> 00:38:15,330
learn what it really is doing.

747
00:38:16,589 --> 00:38:21,990
It's, it's unreal how they
can get away with putting

748
00:38:21,990 --> 00:38:23,279
these certifications together.

749
00:38:23,279 --> 00:38:27,629
Now, I get, you know, when you
initially put a certification together,

750
00:38:27,629 --> 00:38:30,750
it may not be the best, it may
not be the best version of itself.

751
00:38:30,750 --> 00:38:34,230
Like when I first started my
podcast, my first episode sucked.

752
00:38:34,259 --> 00:38:38,790
Like, compared to how I feel about it now,
you know, 1700 or almost 1800 episodes

753
00:38:38,790 --> 00:38:42,299
later, when you put a certification in
place of an industry that's probably

754
00:38:42,299 --> 00:38:45,990
not very well regulated because it's
working in so many different countries,

755
00:38:45,990 --> 00:38:50,670
especially in countries where regulation
is probably not the focus, um, in, in

756
00:38:50,670 --> 00:38:52,529
developing countries and and so forth.

757
00:38:52,740 --> 00:38:57,149
And you can get away with paying people
at a very, very, very low wage if

758
00:38:57,299 --> 00:38:59,100
you know, a, a livable wage at all.

759
00:38:59,100 --> 00:39:00,810
As you mentioned, many
of them are underneath.

760
00:39:01,140 --> 00:39:04,410
And so I, I can understand when you first
put a certification in and it doesn't

761
00:39:04,410 --> 00:39:07,379
really meet the, the best standards for.

762
00:39:07,725 --> 00:39:11,895
The industry for the people growing
it, you would expect that it would be

763
00:39:11,895 --> 00:39:16,785
improved over time and that, that people
would, you know, the people who call it

764
00:39:16,785 --> 00:39:20,505
out and say, Hey, you know what, I, I,
it's not that I want this to go away.

765
00:39:20,505 --> 00:39:23,835
It is, I want this to get better and
I wanna work with you to get better.

766
00:39:23,835 --> 00:39:28,725
So from a, from a coffee wash standpoint,
your organization, when you look at

767
00:39:28,725 --> 00:39:34,095
certifications like this, do you approach
the cer the certification companies

768
00:39:34,275 --> 00:39:38,115
or the, the, the third party bodies
who manage these certification, uh,

769
00:39:38,115 --> 00:39:42,765
organizations and then say, let's, you
know, this is, this is under serving.

770
00:39:42,765 --> 00:39:47,265
You're not serving the community
well, how can we make this better?

771
00:39:47,475 --> 00:39:50,805
Do you end up, you know, putting a
little bit of pressure on them from

772
00:39:50,805 --> 00:39:55,155
a, an activism standpoint, but also we
wanna work with you to increase these

773
00:39:55,155 --> 00:39:56,685
certifications and make them better?

774
00:39:59,115 --> 00:40:03,615
I absolutely believe that the
certifications could do better

775
00:40:04,095 --> 00:40:06,765
and should do better, and.

776
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:12,300
My dream world is one where I wake up
tomorrow or the day after your podcast

777
00:40:12,300 --> 00:40:16,140
comes out and all the main certifications
and coffee have said, oh wow, we're

778
00:40:16,140 --> 00:40:20,185
going to pay living income price and
stop dumping hazardous chemicals and

779
00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:23,670
coffee and treat all our affluent
and make sure that all the coffee is

780
00:40:23,670 --> 00:40:28,200
packaged and compostable and recyclable
materials and like, where's the no

781
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,150
deforestation pledge for me to sign?

782
00:40:31,110 --> 00:40:31,111
Yeah.

783
00:40:31,116 --> 00:40:31,260
Yeah.

784
00:40:31,260 --> 00:40:31,830
Exactly.

785
00:40:31,830 --> 00:40:32,430
That's my dream.

786
00:40:32,430 --> 00:40:33,060
That's my dream.

787
00:40:33,150 --> 00:40:35,070
Um, sadly, we're not there yet.

788
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:35,790
Um, right.

789
00:40:35,790 --> 00:40:39,960
I certainly have tried, um,
communicating with a number of the

790
00:40:40,020 --> 00:40:47,310
coffee certifications, schemes us have
other organizations, and just recently,

791
00:40:47,370 --> 00:40:51,065
um, coffee Watch worked with mm-hmm.

792
00:40:51,150 --> 00:40:55,170
Which is a Brazilian organization that's
won many, many awards and their director

793
00:40:55,170 --> 00:40:56,730
just won the Goldman award recently.

794
00:40:56,730 --> 00:40:56,910
Right.

795
00:40:56,910 --> 00:40:57,540
Just like the.

796
00:40:58,785 --> 00:41:01,485
Green Nobel Prize, I guess you could say.

797
00:41:02,085 --> 00:41:06,975
Um, and we worked with this other
NGO in Colombia as well to do an

798
00:41:06,975 --> 00:41:10,545
investigation of, um, coffee in Colombia.

799
00:41:11,835 --> 00:41:18,075
Literally we found abuses in the
certification schemes of fair trade,

800
00:41:18,555 --> 00:41:23,865
of reinforced alliance of four C, which
is like one of the biggest in coffee.

801
00:41:24,345 --> 00:41:24,675
Yeah.

802
00:41:24,884 --> 00:41:28,035
Mostly for Nestle and cafe
practices, which is like a

803
00:41:28,035 --> 00:41:29,445
hundred percent for Starbucks.

804
00:41:30,404 --> 00:41:31,154
Um,

805
00:41:33,435 --> 00:41:36,765
we just did that report, but
already Coffee watch's first

806
00:41:36,765 --> 00:41:42,435
report on, on abuses that we found
in Chinese coffee supply chains.

807
00:41:43,665 --> 00:41:44,865
A lot of that was certified.

808
00:41:46,125 --> 00:41:50,445
Did another report on abuses in
Mexican coffee supply chains.

809
00:41:50,955 --> 00:41:52,275
A lot of that was certified.

810
00:41:53,745 --> 00:41:57,645
Um, cafe practices like is
almost all of Starbucks coffees.

811
00:41:57,705 --> 00:42:02,069
Certified by this thing called Cafe
Practices, which was set up mm-hmm.

812
00:42:02,150 --> 00:42:03,555
By Conservation International.

813
00:42:03,795 --> 00:42:04,665
I'm sure you know of them.

814
00:42:04,665 --> 00:42:07,185
They do a lot of ocean work,
so you've probably across them.

815
00:42:07,185 --> 00:42:07,245
Yeah.

816
00:42:07,755 --> 00:42:13,455
Well they certify, um, Starbucks
coffee, and not only do they certify

817
00:42:13,725 --> 00:42:19,005
all the environmental abuses we were
talking about, um, we also filed some,

818
00:42:19,590 --> 00:42:25,575
a, a strategic litigation against, uh,
coffee companies in the United States.

819
00:42:25,694 --> 00:42:31,065
Um, we filed against Starbucks, Nestle,
Dunkin Donuts, McDonald's, and a couple

820
00:42:31,065 --> 00:42:34,785
others for slavery in their coffee.

821
00:42:34,790 --> 00:42:34,910
Wow.

822
00:42:35,384 --> 00:42:38,835
And some of that was certified coffee.

823
00:42:39,825 --> 00:42:47,384
So just to give you a sense of like
how bad it is, um, the Brazilian

824
00:42:47,384 --> 00:42:53,265
Labor Inspection Department found
3,700 slaves in coffee plantations.

825
00:42:54,194 --> 00:42:57,794
Between 1996 and 2003, and
that's each of them, they only

826
00:42:57,794 --> 00:43:02,355
inspected 0.1% of coffee farm.

827
00:43:02,384 --> 00:43:02,535
Yeah.

828
00:43:02,535 --> 00:43:04,754
So they're just scratch,
literally scratching the surface.

829
00:43:04,845 --> 00:43:06,464
They're just scratching the surface.

830
00:43:06,645 --> 00:43:11,504
So we are talking about certified slavery.

831
00:43:11,984 --> 00:43:12,345
Yeah.

832
00:43:12,345 --> 00:43:15,225
As well as certified
deforestation and forced labor

833
00:43:15,225 --> 00:43:18,555
and child labor and hazardous.

834
00:43:19,609 --> 00:43:22,484
Well, it's, it's really interesting
because you're talking about these

835
00:43:22,484 --> 00:43:26,024
major companies, like these major
corporations, you know, Starbucks,

836
00:43:26,024 --> 00:43:28,064
McDonald's, and so forth, and.

837
00:43:28,935 --> 00:43:33,135
I know with the seafood industry,
to use this as an analogy, the,

838
00:43:33,135 --> 00:43:35,595
one of the biggest problems with
the seafood industry is not knowing

839
00:43:35,595 --> 00:43:39,615
the supply chain from catching all
the way up to the final retail.

840
00:43:39,615 --> 00:43:43,035
And there was, Oceania made
some interesting discoveries,

841
00:43:43,335 --> 00:43:44,715
uh, scary discoveries really.

842
00:43:44,715 --> 00:43:48,675
Whereas, like a lot of the, the
seafood that was sold in seafood

843
00:43:48,675 --> 00:43:51,585
markets a number of years ago,
I think it was just around 2018.

844
00:43:51,585 --> 00:43:56,655
2019, 50% of them were not the
seafood that they were selling at.

845
00:43:56,655 --> 00:44:01,155
And then it wasn't necessarily the,
uh, the markets that knew about it.

846
00:44:01,275 --> 00:44:06,195
It was the fact that they, throughout
the, the, the supply chain things

847
00:44:06,195 --> 00:44:10,215
changed and they didn't know how it
changed, so it wasn't being certified.

848
00:44:10,215 --> 00:44:15,435
So you have, um, you know, MSC, the Marine
Stewardship Council who have come out

849
00:44:15,435 --> 00:44:19,335
and they said that we've actually been
able to inspect and we follow, I think

850
00:44:19,335 --> 00:44:21,795
it was over 400 different supply chains.

851
00:44:22,095 --> 00:44:26,205
I know they, they sometimes identify
problems even still within that, but at

852
00:44:26,205 --> 00:44:29,415
least they know where this fish is coming
from and where the seafood's coming from.

853
00:44:30,495 --> 00:44:34,365
Was that the problem when you, when you
started bringing lawsuits against these

854
00:44:34,365 --> 00:44:39,555
corporations is they just didn't know or
didn't have control over the entire supply

855
00:44:39,555 --> 00:44:46,875
chain going from the grow, the grow up
to the, um, uh, the final sale at, at a

856
00:44:46,875 --> 00:44:48,705
McDonald's or at a Starbucks or wherever.

857
00:44:49,004 --> 00:44:50,774
Was that the, that the actual problem?

858
00:44:51,375 --> 00:44:54,855
Do you know those little three
monkeys that everyone has on their

859
00:44:54,855 --> 00:44:56,595
desk that says like, see no evil?

860
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:56,669
Yes.

861
00:44:57,240 --> 00:44:57,990
Speak no evil.

862
00:44:57,995 --> 00:44:58,274
Yes.

863
00:44:58,814 --> 00:44:59,294
Yeah.

864
00:44:59,835 --> 00:45:02,745
If you don't know Yeah.

865
00:45:02,924 --> 00:45:08,265
What your supply chain is, is
that because you can't know or

866
00:45:08,265 --> 00:45:10,274
because you don't want to know?

867
00:45:10,814 --> 00:45:11,564
This is really important question.

868
00:45:11,714 --> 00:45:12,669
That's the question, right?

869
00:45:12,915 --> 00:45:13,395
Yeah.

870
00:45:13,634 --> 00:45:15,794
The answer matters hugely for sure.

871
00:45:16,890 --> 00:45:21,254
And I personally believe that
if you are buying coffee.

872
00:45:21,855 --> 00:45:24,345
You must know Yeah.

873
00:45:24,675 --> 00:45:26,055
Where your coffee's coming from.

874
00:45:26,445 --> 00:45:30,645
And if you cannot figure that
out, you should not be in the

875
00:45:30,645 --> 00:45:32,205
business of selling coffee.

876
00:45:32,625 --> 00:45:32,805
Right.

877
00:45:32,805 --> 00:45:37,005
You know, it's like if I was gonna sell
you a can of tuna fish, I should be able

878
00:45:37,005 --> 00:45:41,295
to guarantee A, that it's tuna fish B,
that it doesn't have a resty nail in it.

879
00:45:41,535 --> 00:45:43,155
See, it doesn't have salmonella.

880
00:45:43,485 --> 00:45:43,665
Yeah.

881
00:45:44,025 --> 00:45:45,465
It wasn't made by slaves.

882
00:45:45,645 --> 00:45:45,825
Right.

883
00:45:45,825 --> 00:45:47,355
And it's the same with coffee.

884
00:45:47,625 --> 00:45:47,835
Yeah.

885
00:45:48,255 --> 00:45:52,965
You know, I think that we have
created a system, which completely

886
00:45:52,965 --> 00:45:55,095
broken, Andrew, completely broken.

887
00:45:55,155 --> 00:46:02,025
Why is it that all these small holder
farmers who are so impoverished are not

888
00:46:02,025 --> 00:46:04,815
counted as employees of coffee companies?

889
00:46:05,265 --> 00:46:08,175
They dance to the tune of
those coffee companies.

890
00:46:08,175 --> 00:46:09,225
Coffee companies say jump.

891
00:46:09,225 --> 00:46:10,065
They say how high?

892
00:46:10,245 --> 00:46:10,305
Yeah.

893
00:46:10,305 --> 00:46:10,635
Why?

894
00:46:10,935 --> 00:46:12,765
Because they have no bargaining power.

895
00:46:12,975 --> 00:46:17,235
You know, they often live in countries
where literally you cannot be in a union.

896
00:46:17,265 --> 00:46:19,845
The number two coffee producing
country in the world is Vietnam.

897
00:46:19,935 --> 00:46:20,895
Like literally.

898
00:46:22,290 --> 00:46:23,820
Unions are not legal there.

899
00:46:24,030 --> 00:46:28,410
We did our investigation in in China into
abuses in Chinese coffee supply chains,

900
00:46:28,410 --> 00:46:30,780
but literally unions are not allowed.

901
00:46:30,780 --> 00:46:33,065
They're not legal, so
can't protect the workers.

902
00:46:33,165 --> 00:46:36,720
And that's not even counting the
countries where there's so much

903
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:39,570
violent union busting, like Guatemala.

904
00:46:39,575 --> 00:46:39,665
Yeah.

905
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:46,500
And Mexico and Brazil where
bus and Ed slashed the coffee

906
00:46:46,770 --> 00:46:48,690
unions and so many other unions.

907
00:46:48,690 --> 00:46:56,730
So you know, if the farmers
are basically the slaves or in

908
00:46:56,730 --> 00:46:58,495
some cases actually the slaves.

909
00:46:58,935 --> 00:46:59,895
Yeah, yeah.

910
00:47:00,595 --> 00:47:04,890
The coffee industry, I should
say farmers and farm workers.

911
00:47:05,130 --> 00:47:05,220
Mm-hmm.

912
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,370
Why is it that they aren't
counted as employees?

913
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,020
Why is it that they aren't tabulated?

914
00:47:10,020 --> 00:47:12,960
Why aren't you responsible for their
healthcare, their pension, their

915
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,200
social security, their protective gear?

916
00:47:16,530 --> 00:47:18,960
Why don't you have to take
responsibility for the eff flu?

917
00:47:20,714 --> 00:47:23,895
Why don't you have to take responsibility
for the HH ps, the highly hazardous

918
00:47:23,895 --> 00:47:27,734
pesticides, which all wind up in the
soil and in the water, and in our oceans.

919
00:47:28,065 --> 00:47:28,245
Mm-hmm.

920
00:47:28,634 --> 00:47:32,355
I just think there's this plausible
deniability where the industry has

921
00:47:32,355 --> 00:47:35,835
decided we don't want those people
to be our employees because then we

922
00:47:35,835 --> 00:47:38,774
would be completely responsible for
their poverty and their slavery.

923
00:47:39,015 --> 00:47:41,895
So we're outsourcing it and
we're just calling it the free

924
00:47:41,895 --> 00:47:44,234
market, you know, so Fair enough.

925
00:47:45,765 --> 00:47:47,205
That's the system that we have.

926
00:47:47,384 --> 00:47:47,565
Yeah.

927
00:47:47,565 --> 00:47:48,855
Now we just have to fix it.

928
00:47:48,855 --> 00:47:51,524
We have to ensure that those farmers
have rights, that the farm workers have

929
00:47:51,524 --> 00:47:53,294
rights, that they're paid a living income.

930
00:47:53,504 --> 00:47:53,595
Mm-hmm.

931
00:47:53,865 --> 00:47:55,305
That the companies treat their affluence.

932
00:47:55,365 --> 00:48:02,115
I think the key is let's make sure that
the industry can't say, I don't know.

933
00:48:02,299 --> 00:48:02,589
Yeah.

934
00:48:02,830 --> 00:48:03,310
I don't care.

935
00:48:03,740 --> 00:48:04,029
Yeah.

936
00:48:04,029 --> 00:48:05,415
That's not an okay answer.

937
00:48:05,714 --> 00:48:06,990
That's like not a viable answer.

938
00:48:07,529 --> 00:48:10,875
And, and so that's why, hence the lawsuits
being brought to some of the corporations

939
00:48:10,875 --> 00:48:12,495
and be like, look, you may not have known.

940
00:48:13,230 --> 00:48:15,870
But we don't know if you actually did
know and just ignored it, or you just

941
00:48:15,870 --> 00:48:17,220
didn't want to know and let it go.

942
00:48:17,220 --> 00:48:21,305
But we want you to know, we want
you to make it your, uh, your,

943
00:48:21,310 --> 00:48:25,230
your first priority to know what
is happening at the production site

944
00:48:25,230 --> 00:48:28,950
and all the way through, just like
McDonald's does with their fish now.

945
00:48:28,950 --> 00:48:34,440
Like they, they are very proud of it
and they, they advertise it a lot that

946
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,350
I, I think that's, that's, so, it's
an interesting way of doing things.

947
00:48:37,350 --> 00:48:38,940
It's like, okay, we're
gonna bring these lawsuits.

948
00:48:38,970 --> 00:48:41,220
'cause you need to know that this
is wrong and you need to, you

949
00:48:41,220 --> 00:48:43,980
need to find out if you're gonna
buy and make money off of this.

950
00:48:43,980 --> 00:48:48,029
Like a lot of money, especially some of
these, these companies who have really

951
00:48:48,029 --> 00:48:52,710
focused on creating coffees and cafes and
and stuff at other fast food restaurants.

952
00:48:53,460 --> 00:48:57,150
And then you're going back to, to be
like, okay, now let's start from the

953
00:48:57,150 --> 00:49:01,200
beginning and if we were gonna do it prob
properly, this is how we would do it.

954
00:49:02,370 --> 00:49:06,420
Now if Coffee Watch is coming into this
and you want them to do it properly.

955
00:49:07,095 --> 00:49:09,375
You know, what's, what's the
first step you start at the,

956
00:49:09,465 --> 00:49:11,115
the, the site of production?

957
00:49:11,175 --> 00:49:16,215
Like you start at the farm and, and
how do you change an industry that has

958
00:49:16,215 --> 00:49:19,785
already taken down a lot of forests
that has already made monoculture,

959
00:49:20,205 --> 00:49:24,015
um, that has already has, you know,
the, the, these, these slaves that

960
00:49:24,015 --> 00:49:25,425
are, that are working on these farms.

961
00:49:25,755 --> 00:49:28,005
How do you go in and change that culture?

962
00:49:28,035 --> 00:49:32,025
'cause I can't imagine that these
are corporations in charge of this.

963
00:49:32,025 --> 00:49:33,555
This is probably a lot of.

964
00:49:35,100 --> 00:49:38,100
Let's just say nasty individuals
and companies that are, that are

965
00:49:38,100 --> 00:49:41,100
in charge of this, that are not
willing to play by the rules.

966
00:49:41,370 --> 00:49:44,130
Well, so Andrew, you know, it's
really interesting to think about

967
00:49:44,130 --> 00:49:45,275
what has worked in the past.

968
00:49:45,415 --> 00:49:45,835
Mm-hmm.

969
00:49:45,915 --> 00:49:47,370
In other industries.

970
00:49:47,610 --> 00:49:52,230
So you talked about slavery in seafood,
which I used to work on more back

971
00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:53,400
in the day when I, a green piece.

972
00:49:54,210 --> 00:49:56,940
You know, you look at how
major supermarkets like

973
00:49:56,940 --> 00:49:58,920
Walmart got so super involved.

974
00:49:59,040 --> 00:49:59,250
Yeah.

975
00:49:59,250 --> 00:50:02,310
You talked about how McDonald's
got so super involved.

976
00:50:02,790 --> 00:50:03,840
Well, guess what?

977
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,710
Around 60% of global coffee
is bought in supermarkets.

978
00:50:07,799 --> 00:50:10,500
Yeah, true Supermarkets
figured it out for seafood.

979
00:50:10,500 --> 00:50:12,330
I'm sure they can figure
it out for coffee.

980
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:12,660
Yeah.

981
00:50:12,660 --> 00:50:17,190
McDonald's is one of the top
coffee servers in the world.

982
00:50:18,029 --> 00:50:18,150
Yeah.

983
00:50:18,150 --> 00:50:18,475
You know, I bet.

984
00:50:18,555 --> 00:50:19,995
I think that just as.

985
00:50:20,745 --> 00:50:24,825
The industry that uses palm oil, which
includes like, you know, people who do

986
00:50:24,825 --> 00:50:30,945
shampoo and cosmetics and cup of noodles
and cookies and, um, detergent and

987
00:50:30,945 --> 00:50:34,020
lipstick and all these companies that,
that, that use palm oil change everything.

988
00:50:34,020 --> 00:50:34,100
Yeah.

989
00:50:34,100 --> 00:50:37,335
50% of what you leave the
supermarket with is palm oil in it.

990
00:50:37,755 --> 00:50:41,595
A lot of companies like Unilever, et
cetera, they figured out how are we

991
00:50:41,595 --> 00:50:43,455
gonna get completely traceable palm oil?

992
00:50:43,455 --> 00:50:45,735
How are we gonna get
deforestation free palm oil?

993
00:50:46,485 --> 00:50:52,065
You know, we saw deforestation for palm
oil has gone down in a lot of places.

994
00:50:52,515 --> 00:50:57,075
We know that forced labor in
palm oil with really curbed.

995
00:50:57,675 --> 00:50:57,884
Right.

996
00:50:57,884 --> 00:51:02,355
We know that seafood, slavery, a lot
of companies have stepped up and done

997
00:51:02,415 --> 00:51:04,755
immense amounts of stuff to fix it.

998
00:51:05,085 --> 00:51:08,625
We know companies have done this kind
of work before and they can do it again.

999
00:51:08,925 --> 00:51:10,395
These are adjacent industries.

1000
00:51:10,395 --> 00:51:13,215
Maybe one of the closest
adjacent industries is cocoa.

1001
00:51:13,515 --> 00:51:13,725
Yeah.

1002
00:51:13,725 --> 00:51:17,565
But you know, there are good models
for going deforestation free.

1003
00:51:17,985 --> 00:51:20,205
There are great models
for going traceable.

1004
00:51:20,654 --> 00:51:24,285
We know exactly how to do deforestation
free and traceable coffee today.

1005
00:51:24,525 --> 00:51:28,605
Just like actually there
are compostable pods.

1006
00:51:28,605 --> 00:51:31,365
Yeah, there are
compostable pods, you know.

1007
00:51:31,425 --> 00:51:31,965
Um.

1008
00:51:33,075 --> 00:51:37,815
There are billions of single use aluminum
and plastic capsules that have gone to

1009
00:51:37,815 --> 00:51:40,995
landfills and oceans, um, over time.

1010
00:51:40,995 --> 00:51:43,185
But now there's compostable pods.

1011
00:51:43,245 --> 00:51:47,235
Let's you know, we and, and not
from some MoMA wearing hippie dippy

1012
00:51:47,235 --> 00:51:48,915
corner shop run by a mom and pop.

1013
00:51:48,915 --> 00:51:50,355
No, Nespresso ne especially.

1014
00:51:50,715 --> 00:51:52,035
That's a major company.

1015
00:51:52,220 --> 00:51:52,500
Yeah.

1016
00:51:52,500 --> 00:51:53,340
It's like owned by Nestle.

1017
00:51:53,340 --> 00:51:53,500
Right?

1018
00:51:53,530 --> 00:51:54,140
Nespresso.

1019
00:51:54,140 --> 00:51:55,300
Nestle owned Nesto.

1020
00:51:55,395 --> 00:51:56,805
It's the world's biggest coffee company.

1021
00:51:56,805 --> 00:51:59,325
20% of Global Coffee Nest Nestle.

1022
00:51:59,325 --> 00:52:00,105
So, okay.

1023
00:52:01,155 --> 00:52:06,135
We know that we can do compostable
pos, we know we can do cups for coffee

1024
00:52:06,135 --> 00:52:07,755
that are not lined with plastic.

1025
00:52:08,940 --> 00:52:11,700
They're made out of recycled
paper and not virgin paper, and

1026
00:52:11,700 --> 00:52:13,830
that don't go into the oceans.

1027
00:52:14,310 --> 00:52:16,049
We know how to fix the cups.

1028
00:52:16,049 --> 00:52:17,190
We know how to fix the pots.

1029
00:52:17,190 --> 00:52:18,900
We know how to do deforestation free.

1030
00:52:19,230 --> 00:52:20,640
We know how to do traceable.

1031
00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:26,759
We even know how to think about
rolling out a living income in coffee

1032
00:52:27,060 --> 00:52:32,759
because the cocoa industry has made so
many strides in thinking through how

1033
00:52:32,759 --> 00:52:36,750
to deliver a living income to cocoa
farmers who've been right to also very

1034
00:52:36,750 --> 00:52:39,509
impoverished, um, in horrible conditions.

1035
00:52:39,509 --> 00:52:40,799
Much like much like coffee.

1036
00:52:40,799 --> 00:52:44,700
So the good news, the bad
news is things are bad.

1037
00:52:44,759 --> 00:52:47,549
The good news is there's
so many solutions mm-hmm.

1038
00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:51,330
Where they're at the tip of our
fingers, and sometimes they're even

1039
00:52:51,330 --> 00:52:54,270
deployed by the same exact companies.

1040
00:52:54,805 --> 00:52:59,700
That are very present in coffee, that are
also super present in seafood or coffee

1041
00:52:59,700 --> 00:53:02,495
and cocoa or coffee and soy or coffee.

1042
00:53:02,500 --> 00:53:07,170
So there, there are multiple different
models of making things more sustainable

1043
00:53:07,170 --> 00:53:08,850
and making things more equitable.

1044
00:53:09,180 --> 00:53:09,330
Correct.

1045
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:10,350
Uh, and and yeah.

1046
00:53:10,350 --> 00:53:11,759
And, and more environmentally friendly.

1047
00:53:12,330 --> 00:53:12,480
Correct.

1048
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,190
That's really, that's really interesting.

1049
00:53:14,460 --> 00:53:18,540
Now for, for, uh, for people who drink
coffee, you know, they're probably

1050
00:53:18,540 --> 00:53:20,250
listening to this being like, oh my gosh.

1051
00:53:20,250 --> 00:53:26,370
Like, how do I know if my coffee falls
within one of these bad category areas?

1052
00:53:26,370 --> 00:53:29,460
Or if my coffee is, is good.

1053
00:53:29,700 --> 00:53:32,430
You know, how, how does
one figure that out?

1054
00:53:32,430 --> 00:53:35,279
Like if, you know, even if it has
a certification on there, you're

1055
00:53:35,279 --> 00:53:36,930
like, is this certification real?

1056
00:53:37,140 --> 00:53:39,509
It's a lot of work for someone who
just wants to have a cup of coffee.

1057
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:45,120
So how do, how do coffee
consumers figure this out?

1058
00:53:46,259 --> 00:53:48,061
Well, I have good news
and bad news for coffee.

1059
00:53:48,066 --> 00:53:48,295
Okay.

1060
00:53:48,295 --> 00:53:52,055
So let's get the bad news out of the
way first and then focus on the good.

1061
00:53:53,370 --> 00:53:56,430
If you drink coffee regularly,
you almost certainly are

1062
00:53:56,430 --> 00:53:59,790
drinking slavery, child labor,
deforestation, and ocean destruction.

1063
00:54:00,540 --> 00:54:02,910
I'm sorry, but I think it's mm-hmm.

1064
00:54:03,150 --> 00:54:03,156
That's a hard pill to swallow.

1065
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:05,010
That's just the truth.

1066
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:05,310
Yeah.

1067
00:54:06,930 --> 00:54:14,280
Your coffee is killing jaguars and
whales, however, instead of sitting there

1068
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,615
and like sobbing your eyes out mm-hmm.

1069
00:54:16,700 --> 00:54:21,450
Or going into some doom scrolling,
downward spiral of despair, you

1070
00:54:21,450 --> 00:54:28,350
should think about yourself as a
powerful, beautiful, change agent.

1071
00:54:28,410 --> 00:54:28,440
Mm.

1072
00:54:31,020 --> 00:54:38,040
Don't sit there and self flatly because
you've been unwittingly complicit in

1073
00:54:38,045 --> 00:54:40,140
horrible abuses of people in planet.

1074
00:54:40,170 --> 00:54:44,130
No focus on all the great
things that you can do now.

1075
00:54:44,130 --> 00:54:44,700
Mm-hmm.

1076
00:54:45,390 --> 00:54:46,125
That's what matters.

1077
00:54:48,750 --> 00:54:51,720
Because I think also just as I, sorry
to interrupt, but just also too,

1078
00:54:51,720 --> 00:54:55,799
I think I, I think there's people
who feel bad that this happens.

1079
00:54:55,799 --> 00:54:56,910
Like, oh, what do I do?

1080
00:54:56,910 --> 00:54:58,440
And people who wanna do it,
and then there's other people

1081
00:54:58,440 --> 00:54:59,790
who are gonna argue against it.

1082
00:54:59,790 --> 00:55:02,549
No, this certification's, you know,
like how you, you always hear that

1083
00:55:02,549 --> 00:55:05,700
with an argument when somebody
says, reveal something to you.

1084
00:55:05,700 --> 00:55:09,240
I see this in, in, in oceans all the
time when we say something, oh, this

1085
00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:12,660
is actually bad, or Climate change
is doing this, they'll argue against

1086
00:55:12,660 --> 00:55:17,160
it almost as a defense mechanism to
say, no, I'm not doing anything bad.

1087
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,490
It's not like, I think the, the big
thing to say, and I always tell my

1088
00:55:20,490 --> 00:55:24,870
eyes, it's not necessarily your fault
that you're drinking coffee and you're

1089
00:55:24,870 --> 00:55:26,490
contributing to this by drinking coffee.

1090
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,759
I don't want people to say, and,
and I'm sure you're the same

1091
00:55:29,759 --> 00:55:32,069
way, is that this is your fault.

1092
00:55:32,759 --> 00:55:36,450
The, the, the, the reality of it is
just the way the industry is built.

1093
00:55:37,020 --> 00:55:40,500
We are bringing you information to say,
Hey, there's a lot of flaws in this

1094
00:55:40,500 --> 00:55:42,870
industry, and it can, it can get better.

1095
00:55:43,500 --> 00:55:46,230
So here's how we work it to do better.

1096
00:55:46,545 --> 00:55:46,785
Right.

1097
00:55:46,995 --> 00:55:47,835
Is that That's correct.

1098
00:55:47,835 --> 00:55:49,035
I think that's absolutely correct.

1099
00:55:49,395 --> 00:55:53,055
So I would say, you know, if your first
stage and hearing all this is denial,

1100
00:55:53,055 --> 00:55:55,455
like, oh, this woman is crazy, right?

1101
00:55:55,545 --> 00:55:56,775
Please go visit coffee Watch.

1102
00:55:56,775 --> 00:55:58,245
You can read all her reports.

1103
00:55:58,245 --> 00:56:02,025
I am telling you the
absolute honest to God truth.

1104
00:56:02,025 --> 00:56:02,145
Mm-hmm.

1105
00:56:02,384 --> 00:56:05,234
This data-driven, this is not a joke.

1106
00:56:05,865 --> 00:56:08,924
I do not come from like
rando weirdo groups.

1107
00:56:08,924 --> 00:56:12,495
I've worked at some of the world's top
environmental human rights organizations.

1108
00:56:13,214 --> 00:56:13,337
Yeah, for sure.

1109
00:56:13,337 --> 00:56:14,535
I graduated from Yale Law School.

1110
00:56:14,714 --> 00:56:17,265
Everything we do gets a
liable and a defamation check.

1111
00:56:17,415 --> 00:56:18,134
I promise.

1112
00:56:18,134 --> 00:56:19,035
I'm telling you the truth.

1113
00:56:19,365 --> 00:56:19,545
Yeah.

1114
00:56:19,694 --> 00:56:20,865
It comes from denial to anger.

1115
00:56:20,865 --> 00:56:22,214
You feel angry about this.

1116
00:56:22,275 --> 00:56:23,685
Okay, that's fine.

1117
00:56:24,795 --> 00:56:26,325
Don't feel angry at yourself.

1118
00:56:26,565 --> 00:56:26,714
Right.

1119
00:56:26,714 --> 00:56:29,025
Don't feel angry at the past.

1120
00:56:29,444 --> 00:56:29,535
Right.

1121
00:56:29,535 --> 00:56:30,525
Let's move through that.

1122
00:56:30,525 --> 00:56:32,174
Maybe the next stage is bargaining.

1123
00:56:32,234 --> 00:56:33,944
Oh, well I drink certified coffee.

1124
00:56:33,944 --> 00:56:34,694
How bad can it be?

1125
00:56:34,755 --> 00:56:36,165
Mm. Actually bad.

1126
00:56:36,674 --> 00:56:36,915
Right?

1127
00:56:36,915 --> 00:56:37,575
Let's be ready.

1128
00:56:37,755 --> 00:56:38,055
Bad.

1129
00:56:39,045 --> 00:56:40,275
Let's move through.

1130
00:56:40,275 --> 00:56:44,355
Denial, anger, bargaining,
depression, acceptance to action.

1131
00:56:44,805 --> 00:56:45,435
You know.

1132
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,850
You drink coffee every day, that means
you can change the world every day

1133
00:56:50,850 --> 00:56:52,290
and make it a better place every day.

1134
00:56:52,740 --> 00:56:53,220
Ah, I like that.

1135
00:56:53,460 --> 00:56:53,790
Okay.

1136
00:56:54,450 --> 00:56:59,700
Coffee can absolutely be a
vehicle for saving the planet

1137
00:56:59,790 --> 00:57:01,350
and making people's lives better.

1138
00:57:01,350 --> 00:57:02,250
Mm-hmm.

1139
00:57:02,310 --> 00:57:04,410
And just think about it this way.

1140
00:57:04,500 --> 00:57:07,320
You can break it down into little
steps, and you can start working

1141
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,290
your way through these habits first.

1142
00:57:12,150 --> 00:57:13,920
Don't ever get a disposable cup.

1143
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,500
Just don't do it right either.

1144
00:57:16,500 --> 00:57:20,130
Don't drink that coffee or plunk
your little butt down on a chair

1145
00:57:20,130 --> 00:57:22,620
and sit down and drink it right
there for two or three minutes.

1146
00:57:22,620 --> 00:57:23,130
It'll be nice.

1147
00:57:23,130 --> 00:57:24,120
You can talk to someone.

1148
00:57:24,270 --> 00:57:28,380
You can like make a friend or bring
your uncle, bring a reusable mug,

1149
00:57:28,410 --> 00:57:29,820
or, or whatever other ones do.

1150
00:57:29,820 --> 00:57:30,030
Yeah.

1151
00:57:30,390 --> 00:57:30,720
Yeah.

1152
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:32,370
PO pods.

1153
00:57:32,924 --> 00:57:36,345
Never get a pod that is just
gonna wind up in our oceans.

1154
00:57:36,375 --> 00:57:36,855
Don't do that.

1155
00:57:36,855 --> 00:57:36,944
Mm-hmm.

1156
00:57:37,049 --> 00:57:37,609
Please don't do that.

1157
00:57:38,115 --> 00:57:39,765
If you love whales, don't do it.

1158
00:57:40,185 --> 00:57:40,424
Yeah.

1159
00:57:40,484 --> 00:57:40,935
Don't.

1160
00:57:40,935 --> 00:57:43,665
Don't get a compost of a
one or, again, skip it.

1161
00:57:43,665 --> 00:57:45,254
How important can it be to you?

1162
00:57:45,645 --> 00:57:49,634
Just know that if you do the wrong
thing, you're voting to put it in a

1163
00:57:49,634 --> 00:57:52,575
seal's tummy, and if you do the right
thing, you're saving the planet.

1164
00:57:52,935 --> 00:57:53,174
Hmm.

1165
00:57:53,325 --> 00:57:54,464
That's a powerful thing.

1166
00:57:54,645 --> 00:57:56,115
You just made the planet a better place.

1167
00:57:56,294 --> 00:57:58,455
You paid for something really good.

1168
00:57:58,785 --> 00:57:59,504
Right, right.

1169
00:58:00,165 --> 00:58:06,194
Another organic chemicals, they're all
connected, are what goes into our bodies.

1170
00:58:06,194 --> 00:58:09,105
What goes into the soil, what goes
into rivers, what goes into oceans.

1171
00:58:09,225 --> 00:58:14,504
Coffee is a very HHP thirsty crop, uses
a lot of highly hazardous pesticides.

1172
00:58:15,464 --> 00:58:16,125
Don't do that.

1173
00:58:16,665 --> 00:58:18,404
Please don't do that either.

1174
00:58:18,404 --> 00:58:21,435
You can buy organic coffee,
which is really chemical free.

1175
00:58:21,735 --> 00:58:25,095
Rainforest Alliance is like
maybe a B minus, and Fairtrade

1176
00:58:25,095 --> 00:58:26,745
is like a b plus on chemicals.

1177
00:58:26,924 --> 00:58:29,174
Okay, so those are not perfect,
but they're better than nothing.

1178
00:58:29,174 --> 00:58:29,384
They're better.

1179
00:58:29,805 --> 00:58:30,045
Yep.

1180
00:58:30,674 --> 00:58:34,605
Or you can just take a picture of
yourself with your coffee cup and tweet

1181
00:58:34,665 --> 00:58:39,884
or Facebook or Insta or whatever the
company and say, I am your loyal customer.

1182
00:58:40,335 --> 00:58:42,045
I wish you made organic.

1183
00:58:42,945 --> 00:58:44,685
Or just ask at the counter.

1184
00:58:44,745 --> 00:58:45,975
Ask at the restaurant.

1185
00:58:46,035 --> 00:58:47,085
Ask at the cafe.

1186
00:58:47,384 --> 00:58:51,045
Almost every chain has one organic option.

1187
00:58:51,255 --> 00:58:51,945
Just try that.

1188
00:58:52,275 --> 00:58:52,545
Yep.

1189
00:58:53,235 --> 00:58:54,195
That's something you can do.

1190
00:58:54,495 --> 00:59:00,225
If you can buy coffee that pays
a living income, please do that.

1191
00:59:00,585 --> 00:59:02,085
You don't have to do it every time.

1192
00:59:02,745 --> 00:59:05,055
You don't have to do it when
you're late or rushing or on

1193
00:59:05,055 --> 00:59:07,515
the go, but stock up on that.

1194
00:59:07,695 --> 00:59:08,985
Make a habit of it.

1195
00:59:09,404 --> 00:59:11,355
There is coffee that pays a living income.

1196
00:59:11,985 --> 00:59:12,615
How do you know?

1197
00:59:12,705 --> 00:59:13,725
How do you know which one?

1198
00:59:13,725 --> 00:59:14,715
Like which brands?

1199
00:59:15,075 --> 00:59:17,055
Check, check, check every time.

1200
00:59:17,235 --> 00:59:17,265
Okay.

1201
00:59:17,265 --> 00:59:20,085
When you're buying, check if, if
they do it, they will say they do it.

1202
00:59:20,085 --> 00:59:21,165
Google Living Income, call me.

1203
00:59:21,165 --> 00:59:22,904
So it's not just like on a certification.

1204
00:59:22,904 --> 00:59:26,025
It says we provide livable
wages for no certification.

1205
00:59:26,115 --> 00:59:26,835
No certification.

1206
00:59:26,835 --> 00:59:30,165
It just says on the package we
provide livable wages for our farmers.

1207
00:59:30,165 --> 00:59:30,465
That's correct.

1208
00:59:30,465 --> 00:59:31,125
And farm workers.

1209
00:59:31,215 --> 00:59:31,545
Okay.

1210
00:59:31,550 --> 00:59:34,485
And, and most of the companies that
do that tend to be smaller, mid-size,

1211
00:59:34,545 --> 00:59:36,495
so they don't serve every geography.

1212
00:59:36,495 --> 00:59:38,865
So depending on whether, whether
you Canada or the US or Europe or

1213
00:59:38,865 --> 00:59:40,275
Japan or Korea, it'll be different.

1214
00:59:40,575 --> 00:59:40,634
Yeah.

1215
00:59:40,634 --> 00:59:40,785
Might.

1216
00:59:40,785 --> 00:59:43,335
And it might be a little harder to
get than your regular grocery store.

1217
00:59:43,335 --> 00:59:45,165
You might have to order it
online or something like that.

1218
00:59:45,345 --> 00:59:47,475
So order it online and just
make a plan Every month I'm

1219
00:59:47,475 --> 00:59:49,275
gonna order one bag, two bags.

1220
00:59:49,305 --> 00:59:49,365
Yeah.

1221
00:59:49,365 --> 00:59:51,525
Every week, depending on
how much coffee you drink.

1222
00:59:51,855 --> 00:59:51,975
Gotcha.

1223
00:59:52,395 --> 00:59:53,865
That's a huge thing.

1224
00:59:53,955 --> 00:59:59,745
Or if you can't do that, you
can donate money to a charity

1225
00:59:59,745 --> 01:00:01,335
that works with coffee farmers.

1226
01:00:01,425 --> 01:00:06,555
So if you're gonna impoverish them
by buying low cost coffee, you can

1227
01:00:06,735 --> 01:00:08,475
give back to their communities.

1228
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:09,180
Right.

1229
01:00:09,570 --> 01:00:10,290
For Christmas.

1230
01:00:10,290 --> 01:00:10,350
Yeah.

1231
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:13,920
Or you can give this a Christmas present
to all the coffee lovers in your life.

1232
01:00:14,310 --> 01:00:14,580
Yeah.

1233
01:00:15,330 --> 01:00:20,880
And I would say if you are someone
who cares enough to just ask the

1234
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:27,120
barista, the manager, the waiter,
the Metre D Ask, please ask.

1235
01:00:27,300 --> 01:00:31,380
Because every time you ask
the, that filters up all the

1236
01:00:31,380 --> 01:00:33,420
way eventually to the C-suite.

1237
01:00:33,810 --> 01:00:35,790
And the same goes with social media.

1238
01:00:35,910 --> 01:00:37,290
Go on their social media.

1239
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:41,700
And just tag them and say,
please do better if you want.

1240
01:00:41,700 --> 01:00:43,470
You can go on our Coffee Watch website.

1241
01:00:43,740 --> 01:00:45,600
We have a place where you
can take lots of actions.

1242
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:49,260
You can sign every good petition that's
out there for sustainable coffee.

1243
01:00:49,260 --> 01:00:49,350
Mm-hmm.

1244
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:50,610
Petitions.

1245
01:00:50,910 --> 01:00:53,820
It takes you one minute to
click all those petitions, but

1246
01:00:53,820 --> 01:00:55,230
that's a really big difference.

1247
01:00:56,550 --> 01:00:59,040
We have a list of the
films that you can watch.

1248
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:02,370
You can screen them with your
friends who are coffee drinkers.

1249
01:01:02,460 --> 01:01:02,580
Mm-hmm.

1250
01:01:03,030 --> 01:01:06,210
Just spreading the word with
five or 10 other humans on

1251
01:01:06,210 --> 01:01:08,520
planet Earth is a powerful thing.

1252
01:01:08,910 --> 01:01:13,230
Hosting a screening, that's like
a more fun way of doing it than

1253
01:01:13,230 --> 01:01:17,400
sitting down and watching someone
like me telling you sad, bad news.

1254
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,490
Maybe your friends are more into films.

1255
01:01:20,850 --> 01:01:21,180
Yeah.

1256
01:01:21,420 --> 01:01:22,680
That's a great way to go.

1257
01:01:23,100 --> 01:01:24,120
The petitions.

1258
01:01:24,510 --> 01:01:27,990
Buying from the heart, sending
messages on social media.

1259
01:01:28,110 --> 01:01:28,200
Mm-hmm.

1260
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,945
Posting screenings, asking
in your coffee shop.

1261
01:01:32,655 --> 01:01:36,465
All those things are powerful, and if
you live in a democracy like Canada

1262
01:01:36,465 --> 01:01:41,925
or the US or Europe, then please
contact your lawmaker just once a

1263
01:01:41,925 --> 01:01:43,995
year and ask them to do something.

1264
01:01:44,175 --> 01:01:47,445
There are laws on the books that
have been proposed that would

1265
01:01:47,655 --> 01:01:49,365
totally clean up global coffee.

1266
01:01:50,175 --> 01:01:50,535
Yeah.

1267
01:01:50,565 --> 01:01:54,105
Sometimes it's a matter of like making
up a big stink about it to Yeah.

1268
01:01:54,780 --> 01:01:55,070
Yeah.

1269
01:01:55,070 --> 01:01:57,705
Make sure our government representatives
are like, oh, this is an important

1270
01:01:57,705 --> 01:01:59,085
aspect to, to our people.

1271
01:01:59,085 --> 01:01:59,865
Here's a great example.

1272
01:01:59,865 --> 01:02:03,225
Germany has this sustainable supply chain
law called the Lefa Cat and Gazettes.

1273
01:02:04,095 --> 01:02:08,085
There wasn't enough popular support
for it, and although many people in

1274
01:02:08,085 --> 01:02:12,555
Poles said that they loved it, a lot
of really vocal negative industry

1275
01:02:13,185 --> 01:02:15,105
captured the ear of the new chancellor.

1276
01:02:15,255 --> 01:02:17,115
He said he wants to cancel the law.

1277
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:19,530
You know, people power matters.

1278
01:02:19,530 --> 01:02:23,310
If you're in a democracy, you can
pass laws and you can protect laws.

1279
01:02:23,505 --> 01:02:24,420
Yeah, yeah.

1280
01:02:24,425 --> 01:02:25,800
And laws are a game changer.

1281
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:30,750
We have a law in the books in Europe
called the EUDR one in the UK called

1282
01:02:30,750 --> 01:02:34,380
the UK DR in German, in Germany,
they have that supply chain law.

1283
01:02:34,740 --> 01:02:38,130
And Canada, there's some good
laws in the US We have the Forest

1284
01:02:38,130 --> 01:02:41,670
Act that got bipartisan support
in the house and the Senate.

1285
01:02:42,330 --> 01:02:45,330
There are laws, you can,
you are not in North Korea.

1286
01:02:45,660 --> 01:02:45,840
Right.

1287
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:49,075
If you're listening to this podcast,
you're definitely not living in Exactly.

1288
01:02:49,415 --> 01:02:54,960
And probably you're not living in
Russia or China and that you are free.

1289
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:56,040
That's amazing.

1290
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:57,090
You're effing free.

1291
01:02:57,090 --> 01:02:57,091
Yeah.

1292
01:02:57,390 --> 01:02:57,660
Yeah.

1293
01:02:57,665 --> 01:02:58,075
It's a democracy.

1294
01:02:58,075 --> 01:03:01,230
If you drink coffee every day, I
just ask you that once in your life

1295
01:03:01,260 --> 01:03:04,830
or once a year, you do something for
good lives to change global coffee.

1296
01:03:05,010 --> 01:03:06,675
And if that's all you ever do, yeah.

1297
01:03:06,675 --> 01:03:08,635
That would still be amazing.

1298
01:03:08,945 --> 01:03:09,235
Yeah.

1299
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:12,120
That would make you a hero
for sustainable coffee.

1300
01:03:12,675 --> 01:03:13,185
Perfect.

1301
01:03:13,185 --> 01:03:16,275
I love the, I love the call to action
because I think this is important.

1302
01:03:16,275 --> 01:03:19,635
I think, I think coffee lovers, every
time I, I, you know, my wife's a coffee

1303
01:03:19,635 --> 01:03:21,645
lover, she always wants to do better.

1304
01:03:21,705 --> 01:03:25,275
You know, my kids love their
coffee, they wanna do better.

1305
01:03:25,275 --> 01:03:28,545
Everybody that I know, they love their
coffee, they love their specific coffee,

1306
01:03:28,545 --> 01:03:31,335
and they wanna do better for the people
who are growing the coffee for them.

1307
01:03:31,635 --> 01:03:35,655
And I think this is, this is important,
um, to, to be able to get out and, and,

1308
01:03:35,655 --> 01:03:38,685
you know, it's, it's really interesting
how, you know, at first if I told

1309
01:03:38,685 --> 01:03:41,685
people, yeah, I have someone from
coffee watch on, you know, I have a

1310
01:03:41,685 --> 01:03:42,580
telephone coffee watch, and they're like.

1311
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:45,030
What, how does that have
to affect the oceans?

1312
01:03:45,030 --> 01:03:47,730
Well, it does affect the oceans 'cause
the entire supply chain, when you think

1313
01:03:47,730 --> 01:03:49,740
about it, plastic ends up in the oceans.

1314
01:03:49,740 --> 01:03:54,300
You have the cups, you have, you know,
the, the, um, the little containers,

1315
01:03:54,450 --> 01:03:56,580
the pods, they end up in the ocean.

1316
01:03:56,580 --> 01:03:58,620
The chemicals end up
in the ocean from that.

1317
01:03:58,860 --> 01:03:59,370
And it hurts.

1318
01:03:59,910 --> 01:04:03,900
It harms wildlife and our wild systems,
whether it be on land, in fresh

1319
01:04:03,900 --> 01:04:07,500
water or in the marine realm, uh, it
always, it always makes a difference.

1320
01:04:07,500 --> 01:04:10,260
So, tell, I wanna thank you for,
for bringing this to our attention.

1321
01:04:10,290 --> 01:04:11,070
Really do appreciate it.

1322
01:04:11,070 --> 01:04:13,650
I'd love to have you back
on to get updates on, on

1323
01:04:13,650 --> 01:04:15,270
where we are in the industry.

1324
01:04:15,510 --> 01:04:20,010
Um, but also, you know, if people
want to get a hold of your, go to

1325
01:04:20,340 --> 01:04:23,460
your website, can you just let people
know what the, that website is?

1326
01:04:23,700 --> 01:04:24,930
Yeah, absolutely.

1327
01:04:24,930 --> 01:04:26,100
Please come to our website.

1328
01:04:26,100 --> 01:04:29,310
That's where you can find all those
wonderful petitions and things like that.

1329
01:04:29,670 --> 01:04:32,070
It's just coffee watch.org.

1330
01:04:32,580 --> 01:04:32,970
Awesome.

1331
01:04:32,970 --> 01:04:36,690
And there is a a, and I'll put
the other link to it as well.

1332
01:04:36,690 --> 01:04:37,981
There is a, a link on there.

1333
01:04:38,550 --> 01:04:41,550
Right at the top it says actions,
and that's where you can sign the

1334
01:04:41,550 --> 01:04:45,000
petitions, you can volunteer, you
can host screenings, and then you

1335
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,750
can understand how to buy more,
uh, why more responsible coffee?

1336
01:04:48,750 --> 01:04:50,805
So again, thank you so much, Atel.

1337
01:04:50,910 --> 01:04:51,870
We really appreciate it.

1338
01:04:51,875 --> 01:04:54,540
I'm, I'm so happy to have
shared this time with you.

1339
01:04:54,540 --> 01:04:59,340
I'm so thrilled to appear with you
here, and I just think that, you know,

1340
01:04:59,790 --> 01:05:05,130
I wanna leave people with a feeling
of immense hope and beauty and that

1341
01:05:05,130 --> 01:05:07,740
there's so much possibility for change.

1342
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:08,640
Yes.

1343
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:11,610
And I think we've seen it
before and we can do it again.

1344
01:05:12,090 --> 01:05:12,750
Absolutely.

1345
01:05:12,900 --> 01:05:13,410
Wonderful.

1346
01:05:13,410 --> 01:05:15,210
Stay on the line and
we'll, uh, we'll chat soon.

1347
01:05:15,210 --> 01:05:16,080
And thank you so much.

1348
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:16,860
We really appreciate.

1349
01:05:17,265 --> 01:05:19,665
Thank you Itel for joining me
on today's episode of the How

1350
01:05:19,665 --> 01:05:20,685
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

1351
01:05:20,685 --> 01:05:21,825
It was great to have you on.

1352
01:05:21,915 --> 01:05:24,825
It was great to be able to find out all
about this industry, a lot of stuff.

1353
01:05:24,855 --> 01:05:30,345
I had no idea what was going on from
modern slavery to monocultures and loss

1354
01:05:30,345 --> 01:05:34,875
of biodiversity to deforestation being one
of the top seven triggers of deforestation

1355
01:05:34,905 --> 01:05:36,375
or reasons for deforestation.

1356
01:05:36,435 --> 01:05:37,005
It's unreal.

1357
01:05:37,065 --> 01:05:39,915
I can't believe that's even a thing,
but if you think about how many people,

1358
01:05:39,975 --> 01:05:44,325
you know, drink coffee and how popular
it is and what the best way to go and

1359
01:05:44,325 --> 01:05:48,285
how to find out which is the best coffee
company or coffee brand or type of

1360
01:05:48,285 --> 01:05:52,125
coffee to go with is a really difficult
thing to do just like it is for seafood.

1361
01:05:52,155 --> 01:05:55,845
And it just kind of goes to show that it
can happen in any industry and then having

1362
01:05:55,845 --> 01:06:00,645
that site from grow to consumption for
companies to be able to see that whole

1363
01:06:00,645 --> 01:06:02,475
supply chain is really, really important.

1364
01:06:02,475 --> 01:06:07,395
So it's nice to see somebody like Atel
and her staff of Coffee watch be able

1365
01:06:07,395 --> 01:06:10,635
to work within this industry, even
though it's not an industry that has

1366
01:06:10,635 --> 01:06:11,925
a lot of attention to it, which is.

1367
01:06:12,330 --> 01:06:14,879
Boggles boggles my mind
when she first started.

1368
01:06:14,939 --> 01:06:16,500
People weren't really
paying attention to it.

1369
01:06:16,500 --> 01:06:19,379
So I'm glad somebody is, and
I'm glad there are more and more

1370
01:06:19,379 --> 01:06:20,759
people who are doing so now.

1371
01:06:20,879 --> 01:06:25,290
And so if you want to go to find out
more about how to, you know, drink coffee

1372
01:06:25,290 --> 01:06:31,080
better, Astel mentioned, go to coffee
watch.org, all one word, coffee watch.org.

1373
01:06:31,169 --> 01:06:34,529
And if you want to take action,
I'll put the link in the show notes.

1374
01:06:34,529 --> 01:06:35,895
You just have to go on the top menu bar.

1375
01:06:36,370 --> 01:06:39,010
Over to the far right by the donate
button, so you can donate as well.

1376
01:06:39,190 --> 01:06:41,890
But right by the donate button, there's
a list of actions that you can do.

1377
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:44,980
You can volunteer, you can assign
petitions, and you can find out

1378
01:06:44,980 --> 01:06:48,130
how to buy more responsible coffee,
and of course, host screenings

1379
01:06:48,130 --> 01:06:50,170
for coffee type documentaries.

1380
01:06:50,380 --> 01:06:53,260
So thank you so much for joining us, Atel.

1381
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:57,520
Thank you for joining us on this
episode of the podcast, because this is

1382
01:06:57,520 --> 01:06:58,690
something that we always wanna learn.

1383
01:06:58,690 --> 01:07:01,330
We'll learn new things, learn how
things affect the ocean, learn

1384
01:07:01,330 --> 01:07:02,560
how things affect the planet.

1385
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:06,610
The deforestation is a huge
trigger for planetary disaster.

1386
01:07:06,695 --> 01:07:09,425
As well as plastic pollution in the ocean.

1387
01:07:09,425 --> 01:07:12,215
So it's always great to be able
to find out more ways that we

1388
01:07:12,215 --> 01:07:15,875
can find solutions in a industry
that would make a big difference.

1389
01:07:15,905 --> 01:07:18,095
'cause there's so many people that
drink coffee and making better

1390
01:07:18,095 --> 01:07:20,075
choices can make huge differences.

1391
01:07:20,075 --> 01:07:22,205
So I want to thank Itel for joining us.

1392
01:07:22,265 --> 01:07:25,265
If you have any questions or comments,
please lay them in the comments below.

1393
01:07:25,265 --> 01:07:27,815
You're watching this on YouTube, and
of course, if you're watching this on

1394
01:07:27,815 --> 01:07:31,355
your favorite podcast app, which is the
audio version, you can get ahold of me.

1395
01:07:31,355 --> 01:07:34,145
Going to speak up for blue.com/contact.

1396
01:07:34,295 --> 01:07:36,335
Fill out the form, send me an email.

1397
01:07:36,605 --> 01:07:39,905
You can also go to at How to
Protect the Ocean on Instagram

1398
01:07:39,905 --> 01:07:41,585
that's at How to Protect the Ocean.

1399
01:07:41,705 --> 01:07:43,595
Send me a dm. Love to hear from you.

1400
01:07:43,775 --> 01:07:46,985
Other than that, thank you for
joining me on today's episode of the

1401
01:07:46,985 --> 01:07:48,305
How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

1402
01:07:48,455 --> 01:07:50,975
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from
the True nor Strong and free.

1403
01:07:51,215 --> 01:07:51,845
Have a great day.

1404
01:07:51,845 --> 01:07:54,065
We'll talk to you next time
and happy conservation.