Conservation Is About Collaboration And Balean Is All About Collaboration

0:00 There is a collaboration problem within There is a collaboration problem within the ocean conservation field, and we're going to talk about it on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. We have Bart Orr, who is the new founder of Balian, which is a platform that helps individuals individuals that have ocean missions, that have ocean missions, have that support and get that funding to push their ocean missions push their ocean missions even further even further and get to that next level. We're going to talk about how this We're going to talk about how this founding came, how Balian came to be, how he went from he went from an engineer to a founder of an engineer to a founder of an ocean conservation organization. We're going to talk about how our We're going to talk about how our collaboration has been so helpful and what makes a good what makes a good collaboration for ocean collaboration for ocean conservation on this episode.

0:40 Let's start the show. Let's start the show. Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. This is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. better ocean by taking action. On today's episode, we're going to be On today's episode, we're going to be talking about collaboration and what the problems are in collaboration in today's ocean conservation field and how to solve that, especially in this creator economy that we talk about. We're seeing a lot more and I'm seeing a We're seeing a lot more, and I'm seeing a lot more individuals come up with ideas of how to protect the ocean, how to make the ocean more sustainable, how to get people involved in making the ocean protected and conserved and more sustainable and just helping out the planet in general.

1:24 But there's a lot of problems with that because you're individual. You don't have necessarily a huge platform like some of the larger organizations do. And a lot of the times you get left out And a lot of the times you get left out of the funding because you're not part of a large organization, which makes it really hard to collaborate. really hard to collaborate. So we're going to talk about So we're going to talk about collaborations in this episode. We're going to talk a lot of things and I'm going to introduce my guests in just a second. But before we do, if you are interested in protecting the ocean, I want you to consider consider joining the undertow. joining the undertow. The undertow is a platform, another The undertow is a platform, another platform where you can be part of a community where not only are you going to be able to support wave makers, but you can also be guided to taking ocean action, whether it be through buying specific products that we vet to make sure that they're good for you or that you're just talking about the ocean in general and learning more about the ocean.

2:08 And learning more about the ocean. No algorithms from a No algorithms from a social media platform. social media platform. This is all ocean all the time. This is all ocean all the time. Go to speak up for blue.com forward slash join the undertow that speak up for blue.com blue dot com forward slash join the forward slash join the undertow to get access to that. Now to introduce my guest today, we have Bart Orr, who is one of the founders of Balian Balian and Balian dot org is the website. and Balian.org is the website. So you can go there to get more information and contact them and I'll put it in the show notes, but Bart and I have been talking a number of times recently. of times recently, as soon as we met, we As soon as we met, we met through a friend of ours, Natalie Gilson, who is a communications Gilson, who is a communications person, person who works for Pisces management. management and she's amazing. And she's amazing. And I've been able to meet a number of different people through these collaborations. collaborations and we decided to And we decided to collaborate on through some podcasting and to be able to talk about Balian to be able to talk about what makes a good collaboration and how to elevate individuals individuals who want to work within the who want to work within the ocean conservation field may not have that traditional background that traditional background of ocean of ocean science or being a marine biologist, ocean conservationists, but want to help out out regardless and have various creative regardless and have various creative ways of doing so, whether it be through business, whether it be through art, whether it be through a number of different avenues, science, and we don't want to be able to get them to the next level.

3:16 And so Balian is one of those platforms that's working to do that. And it's a great platform and it's going And it's a great platform and it's going to become a bigger platform as it grows. So I want to have Bart on to talk about what makes a good collaboration. So I want to have Bart on to talk about what makes a good collaboration. So we talk about the current problems and So we talk about the current problems and some of the solutions that we suggest throughout this collaboration. So if you're an individual who's looking to up their game in terms of ocean conservation, conservation, this is this is the episode for you. the episode for you. And if you're an individual who's And if you're an individual who's struggling with collaborations in the past, this might be good for you to be able to listen to. you to be able to listen to. So here's the interview with Bart. Enjoy and I'll talk to you after. Hey, Bart, welcome to the how to protect the ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about collaboration in ocean conservation? Yes, sir. Yes, I am. Yeah.

3:57 Let's collaborate, right? Absolutely. This is a collaboration which we'll find out more about in a few minutes. And Bart and I, we've met through a good friend of ours, Natalie Gilson, and we've So here's the interview with Bart. Enjoy. been kind of talking on and off for a bit for the over the last couple of months, working together, discussing ocean conservation and what's needed. And we're going to talk about your platform, Baliin, and we're going to talk about you and everything that has to go with collaboration and ocean conservation, because that's something that one is an important thing to do to get projects moving forward to get action done. We see collaboration on all different levels from government level all the way to individual level.

4:39 And so we want to talk about some of the problems that we've seen and how to get those solutions going to solve those problems. So we're going to talk about a lot of things. And to be honest, Bart, I have a feeling this is going to be the beginning of a long conversation that's going to happen over a number of episodes. So I'm already inviting you back because I know this is going to be a lot of fun. But this is it's going to be like a conversation and less of an interview, but more of a conversation. And I can't wait to get into it. But before we do, Bart, why don't you just let us know who you are and what you do? Yeah, sure. Yeah. Wow. And then we still need to start, right? And already paving the road for the next steps. Yeah, look, Bart Orr, I am Bart training.

5:20 I'm a mechanical engineer. I have my business background. And but I'm absolutely intrigued by sustainability in general. And a couple of years back, I got into this thing called ocean and ocean conservation, ocean sustainability. And that's where things took off. And I found out I have a new career. Almost like a new purpose, right? Yeah, so what what is important to me is that if you consider how we look at the earth and how we how we deal and live our everyday life, I became absolutely fascinated by the fact how how this the largest ecosystem on the planet is has always been there for millions of years.

6:05 And it's keeping it's it's it's still there. It's taking care of us. And we are barely aware of that, right? As humanity. And that's that's thought about, okay, there's this big thing, keeping us alive. While we barely know. That's fascinating. So let's explore that, right? And that's where my journey started. There's also one of the reasons why I decided, okay, let's let's go for it. And this is going to be my new purpose, my new future. And hence, here's value. And suddenly, I'm an ocean entrepreneur. No, with my co founder. Yeah, well, I love I love that. I love that aspect. And, you know, coming from an engineering background, like why has sustainability always been such a play such a big role? You know, a lot of engineers, you can engineer is such a such a just like ocean conservation, ocean science, there's such a it's such a huge field, you can specialize in a lot of different aspects of it, from oil and gas all the way to creating, you know, the smallest of instruments that go into microchips that are microchips that go into computers that are power some of the largest facilities in the world. So this is such a broad subject matter. But sustainability, although it is a niche kind of area within within engineering and sort of within the scope. How did you like where did that interest come from? And how have you been using that throughout your career? Yeah, well, for me, it's actually pretty simple. It starts with awareness

7:37 for myself. I've been creating, I think, a lot of people are probably mostly consumer products or tools and equipment and mechanical stuff. And when you do that, you start to realize, okay, yeah, let's let's make it a bit better. Let's make it a better product or how to make it more sustainable and with a smaller footprint. But after a while, you start to realize, okay, it's still, well, still shit that I'm putting into this new world, right? And there's already so much so I became fascinated about how can I lower my footprint, but you cannot go below zero, right? Still a challenge, still a challenge. But if you get to zero, I started wondering, is there a possibility how you can make a positive impact, which, which, well, maybe not with stuff, but with things, the things that I want to do. And that's, that's idea that kept me alive. And also awake in the evenings, right?

8:33 But it was really there. And I started exploring things like, okay, seaweed, super interesting, right? There's a big, big potential in how seaweed is a sustainable source of food and livelihoods of people and while in the ocean, it also does a great job in biodiversity. So that's interesting. So let's, let's, let's go there. And, and just concepts like these, that's, that's, that's, that's the that triggered me. And what can I do, right? How can me and how can I contribute to that? How can my thoughts, my, well, if I have them, how can all my skills, how can all my skills contribute to this bigger picture? And how can I create something that is bigger than me alone? And that's where collaboration starts. There is one of the things that I noticed, when I explored this, this concept of seaweed, and ocean conservation and the combination of the two. What really, really intrigued me is, this is a new world. This is a new type of new sector where people treat each other in a different way. Everybody is in there with a purpose, they're not there for money, right? These people, they are truly motivated, they are really there to make an impact on their own way. And this, this leverages this different type of collaboration.

10:03 Different type of collaboration that you would normally see in normally in my world, from the industry, right? Where it's all about, this is mine, this is yours. And let's keep it like this. No, it's way different, different mindset. And that was something like, okay, here, we can do something here, we can build bridges. And this is, this is my type of people I want to work with. That's where it started. I love it. I love it. And so like, when you did engineering, what were you working in? What aspect of engineering were you working in? Mostly consumer goods and production. I did some things in bicycles, I did some things in machine industry, construction, medical tools, a whole bunch of things.

10:50 But when you're a mechanical engineer, after a while, it doesn't matter anymore, whether you build roller coasters or, or, Coca Cola bottles, right? It doesn't matter. It's just material. And I wanted to do something like imagine with a positive impact. And yeah, I believe my mindset still is an engineer. Yeah, I still think like that. And that's also what I did when, when you zoom out and you see the earth from space. I don't see just this bowl, this, this bowl or this floating swear, it's more like, this is an ecosystem. This is a total system that works. It's completely closed. What happens there? And is this ecosystem thoughts? How does it stay alive? How does it work? That's interesting.

11:40 Yeah, yeah, no doubt. I think I think it is interesting, especially, you know, working with consumer goods all the time, you see, like, you're like, Oh, I want this to be more like, I'd like this to be more sustainable. And, you know, but you're stuck in this sort of like a cog in the wheel of, you know, the business aspect and what, you know, marketing and what, what works for people, what people will use. And I mean, you know, changing human behavior is very difficult. But, but you can do that when you create products. And I can see where that sustainability really comes in, like that. Oh, yeah. Process, like how do we make this a lot more sustainable? And, and I love that aspect as well. So that's cool. And so where was that shift, like that predominant shift over the last little bit where you're just like, you know what, you know, I want to really have my mark on, on, on the oceans and on ocean conservation. So where, where did, can you pinpoint that one moment where you're like, okay, I'm making a, I'm making a big shift because that's a big change in your career.

12:36 Yeah, it was, it was. Yeah, and that's quite unfortunate. I don't have, let's say this single moment where it's okay from tomorrow onwards, I'm going to do everything different. It was like a gradual shift. You get some, you're interested in something, you learn more, I had some conversations with a marine biologist, I remember very clearly. And she told me about how, how just whales, how they contribute to CO2 uptake, and how they contribute to the world. And I was like, okay, and this is just whales. Tell me more, right? What, what's the more you talk, the more you speak with experts, the more you start reading, you start listening to podcasts, you learn, you watch documentaries, and whether they are on national geographic or Netflix, whatever.

13:28 And you start to search for information and you want to know more and yeah, this fascination that's unstoppable. And for me, it became like a new passion. I wasn't like this 10 years ago, but now there's so much we need to do. And this is the beauty. There's also so much we can do. And that was different. There's a lot of documentaries, like I mentioned, or talks that you have about people saying that this is not good. It's, we have a problem and things are not going in the right direction. And they are right. There are problems. But what triggers me and maybe this is the engineer taking over, I see opportunities, right? Consider this example of these wheels, right? There's now roughly 20% of the original wheel population still left. And they take the wheel activity that they only have like, they already have four ways of carbon sequestering four ways and and their wheel activity is like 1% of global carbon uptake with their activity alone. Imagine we just restored back to original populations. Yeah, then you go from one to 5%. That's big, right?

14:51 That's a big difference. And a lot of big animals around. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And it was like that. So it's just a matter of, okay, we bring it back to how it was. And we save what we had, we save ourselves, right? So for me, it's more about the potential and how we can leverage that rather than than how all about how much of a threat we have. And it is there, but I see the opportunities. Yeah, no, definitely. And so in comes, you know, Balian, which you you co founded. How did how did that all that come about? Like where, you know, where did that that vision come from? And then how did you take that vision, you know, from an engineering perspective, the engineering mind and then bring about being like, okay, like this is, yeah, this is what we're gonna do.

15:45 And when you decide, okay, I want to do something different. I want to do something with the oceans, you start thinking about, okay, where can I contribute? Who should I told to? Hey, I'm here, I want to help. And I started noticing, okay, there's a lot of people already doing amazing stuff. And I would love to help them. There is so much we can do. Oh, these guys are doing coral reef restoration. So here they are doing kelp forest, a reef foresting. There's another place where they work on well, you name it, there's so much. But I noticed that, okay, it's pretty challenging for a for a non scientist like me, or someone who doesn't come from conservation, or has been a banker for 30 years or whatever, and comes in with a lot of money. It's very challenging to make this change to this new sector. So I did some volunteering, I talked to people, I did my part in the best way I could. But there was one thing that I noticed. And this was this was also the reason why I could not change.

16:55 It was not just a job change where you go from one company to the other. I really needed to change my mindset in and how can I gradually make this change to a new career to new purpose. And for me, the trigger came into, okay, if there's one problem that all these organizations, all these people, and there are literally 10,000 of these organizations, millions of people working on ocean impact every day. If there's one thing that's blocking them, it is funding awareness, visibility. Maybe I should do that, right? If there is a big problem for all these organizations, all these impact organizations that I can remove, improve and help them with, then I can make an impact that is far beyond who am I on my own.

17:47 And that's where Valian started. Yeah, I love that. I think it's such a hard thing to, it's a hard thing to conceptualize right off the bat, right? And then I think also, it's a hard thing to try and say, like, who do you work with at the beginning? I mean, there's so many people that are working within ocean conservation. It's like, how do you support the people that, you know, Valian's going to support? And I think that's the challenge, which we'll get into in a number of different episodes here. Because I think, you know, that's, I think that'll be the always the question. And that's how we started to get to talk as well, to share our thoughts and share our ideas and where you're working with some great people like Natalie Gilson and stuff to get the stories out and get Valian's story out, including yours and Sanders.

18:40 And I think that's, I think it's, I think it's really great. But, you know, the big thing with with the mission of Valian is, is, is collaboration. And that's what we'll be talking about today. And so for you when talking when thinking about that mission, both of you, where did collaboration, how did collaboration become that much of a key aspect in your mission? Yeah, yeah. Well, it started actually already with with my co founder, right? We're neighbors, we're neighbors. So we speak to each other already quite some time. And, and then you I didn't, I forgot that I didn't realize that you guys were like neighbors. That's hilarious. Yeah, sometimes you search for for like minded people all around the world. And you speak to people that are literally on the other side of the ocean. Hey, do you want to work with me?

19:28 And right this idea. But there's always something in the way, right? I just got into a new job. Maybe not. I just, I just got married. Don't have the money, whatever. And then it turns out, he was living on the other side of the street, right? Here's my neighbor Sonder. So this was already where the collaboration started. I started to notice that if you just express your passion, what you want to do, explain why you want to do it. There are a lot of people around you who have something similar, maybe on a small burner in the back of their head. But a lot of people really want to make an impact. And that's, that's something that was also for us. We started from scratch. This was super important. If you speak with people and all openers and transparency, and we don't do secrets.

20:19 There's no need for secrets. If you speak about what you want to achieve, what you can achieve, but you cannot do it alone. We pretty quickly realize that this is way bigger than just two people, two founders. There is so much we can do. And collaboration in general, it should be mutually beneficial, right? It cannot be like, hey, thanks for helping me and goodbye. No, it should always be like, how can we help each other in such a way that it doesn't only help me as a person or as a business or organization? How can we do it in such a way that it also helps you and we found out that by just posing this question, okay, well, this is what we're doing. What are you doing? Where's the overlap? There are so many things possible suddenly and doors open, right?

21:06 So instead of, like I mentioned before, a simple job change, hey, here's my CV and here you go. Now it really became a transition into a different mindset, which is all about collaborating openness, mutual beneficial collaboration that is. And I think that's what I think collaboration is great. Now, how do you like when you stepping into the ocean conservation industry or the field, you're coming in with a brand new lens in your experience, how do you find collaborations working within the industry, not just with your own personal things, but from people you've talked to a lot of different people.

21:59 Yeah. How do you where do you get the sense where collaboration is within within the ocean conservation field? Yeah, well, the first thing that I noticed is that it's very interconnected, right? You rarely find a person who is only bound to one organization. They typically do things for this organization. They also help there. And while doing that, they have a hobby, which is also related to ocean conservation in a way. So it's very interconnected. And if you speak to one, you automatically speak to three, four or even five people at the same time. And so true. Yeah, it's a networking became a very different way compared to the traditional industry where I've been in. It's very much on one on one contact.

22:50 And then maybe you can ask this, this, this person to have me I do you also have a colleague, or can you let me speak to your manager? It goes step by step ocean sector ocean conservation and restoration. That's different. If you notice there is a shared passion. People will also say, Oh, wow, that's great. I know what you need. I know what you want to do. And you should definitely talk to this guy. And by the way, I just wrote him or her an email. And it goes goes in a very different way that this networking and collaboration is very different. And I think that networking and collaborative networking, that that's super powerful.

23:31 Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. And I think especially when you first start out and you're starting to make these connections and the networking becomes a big thing. I mean, it worked for me too. From from this podcast standpoint, when I started interviewing people, you know, back in 2014. for this podcast, which I launched in 2015, I started to interview people and then they'd be like, at first, I knew a good number of people within the field. And so I started off with them, of course, and then they enjoyed it. We had a good time talking and says, oh, you know who you should interview? You should interview this person. They're working on such and such topic. Oh, okay, cool, let's talk to that. I remember I did an interview on marine mammals and whales, and I contacted one person who I knew and I said, hey, we did this interview and at the end of the interview, I started to ask a little bit about it was one blackfish got released, the documentary about Tilakum, the orca, and the captive orca, and changed the captive orca industry.

24:35 And I said, yeah, do you know much about that movie and what science went in and stuff like that? It looks like it's having a big impact. He goes, oh no, you should talk to my wife. She's the orca biologist and she did a lot of the science and she checked the science for it. So then I got to talk to her and that was one of my biggest episodes to this date on the podcast. And it's interesting how once you show, once you start to talk to people and show what you're doing and they genuinely understand what you're doing and feel the love of what you're doing, how they will pass it on and get you to talk to other people to help you out. And I think that takes a lot from yourself to be able to go and talk to people.

25:17 And I tell this to people who are looking for jobs all the time in the industry. I'm like the biggest thing is start talking to people. If you can't afford to go to a conference, go on LinkedIn, start messaging people, start have one-on-one coffees virtually with them. There's so many ways you can connect with people these days. It makes it a lot easier than when I was first starting. But that networking is really interesting. I feel though when people start working together or start talking about working together, that's when collaboration really becomes important. And I find that's where we really find out where the problems are in collaboration.

26:00 Have you come across, you don't have to name any names or anything. Have you come across instances where or even heard of instances where collaboration wasn't really working the way you thought it would be working, even between two different organizations or whatever? Yeah, well, we all have our own stories, right? And we met also through networking and that was powerful, super nice. And now we're suddenly talking to each other in this podcast. But of course, to me, there's a few things that are important. The first is timing. You need to speak to someone who just happens to have the right time and have this comparable thought at the same time.

26:44 And sometimes you simply cannot convince a person to do the same, right? It doesn't always work like that. I mentioned about this small thought in the back of the mind of the people about ocean conservation or sustainability in general. Some people just have a very small burner. Others have a big fire. And that needs to be a little bit of coincidence. Sometimes you can feel it like, ah, whoa, hold on. I hear or you sense from a person in a conversation. And this goes very well with a glass of beer in a cafe. This person has this same sense of I can do better. I can do more.

27:24 And that's the sweet spot, right? If you know, oh, hey, hold on. What you're now telling me, I recognize what you're saying. And I've been through that. I am going through that at this very moment. And then you want to you want to explore this together. We have shared passion. That's a sweet spot. And of course, it also happens the other way around, right? If you have conversations with a friend, even if they're they're very close to you, it can sometimes mean that this person doesn't feel the connect or doesn't care about it as much as you do. Yeah, coincidence. Yeah, professional. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, please go ahead. No, go ahead. Go continue. Continue. Go ahead. Yeah.

28:09 On a more professional level, I it can also be sometimes like internal priorities and the industry in ocean conservation restoration, it's a lot of small initiatives, smaller individuals that that's sometimes do this besides their day to day job, right? Yes. So much energy and compassion and passion about what they want to achieve. And these are the people have a really big and open mind about Oh, yeah, sure. We should they are truly motivated to to make a change. Yeah, while bigger organizations. Yeah, there it's it's for for some people, it's just a job.

28:49 While others are there for making an impact and purpose. And yeah, you also need to be a bit lucky. But I found out that especially these smaller initiatives, the things that are not super, super big yet. There's so much potential, so much innovation and knowledge, passion, I feel like they deserve to be successful. And in a way, sometimes I feel like that myself, I'm just starting this together with some there is in since October 24, pretty recently. So we're, we're absolute beginners. So we need some, some leverage or runway to make this into a success week, we cannot be big at the very beginning. So in my view, all the organizations, people, or institutes that are already big.

29:42 In a way, it's also their responsibility to help the smaller ones or the not yet famous persons, right? And that's Yeah, they're there. That can be challenging, that can be challenging. I think it can be challenging. But I think it has the most potential, to be honest, like these individuals, because I think the times that we're in and the technology that we have, you know, in that creator economy or that influencer economy is is is becoming bigger and bigger and bigger. And I think that's a great experience. Like when I grew up into the industry, you know, I graduated my undergrad degree in 2001. So, you know, internet was still it was becoming bigger and bigger. But you know, social media was like, I think we had, what was it? My space, I think was the biggest social media platform that was out there.

30:27 And even then that was that was getting that wasn't even that big at that point. But there was no Facebook, there was no YouTube at that point. And the people in the organizations who kind of ruled the roost were the big organizations, the WWF, the Oceana, and they did some phenomenal work and they continue to do phenomenal work. But they had like they were the machines that kept things going and and you either worked with them or you didn't or maybe you worked as like a consultant. So they'd get like a professor or they get like somebody who was, you know, had a lot of experience in the industry and they were experts and they would work with them, you know, on a contract basis. And they would have little contracts or they would fund graduate work. And they did again, they did some amazing work like WWF funded my part of my graduate work on marine protected areas. And it was it was wonderful to work. They were really great to work with.

31:15 But then as people started to graduate and more and more people started to get into the field of marine science and ocean conservation, there was less and less funding available and more people around and the funding continues to kind of decrease it seems or not increase it the way it should be. And there are more people starting more organizations. Some of those are getting bigger. Other people are going in different routes and and but we're seeing this this increase of the individual of the creator and who are, you know, they might be undergraduates. They might be graduates or they might be newly graduates or they might be business people just like yourself and Sanders who are who decide to say, you know what, like we were interested in the ocean and we need to help solve these problems.

31:59 And we started seeing more and more individual people and smaller organizations who are coming on to the forefront competing for this same funding. And and a lot of them are being left behind or not being able to succeed in doing a full time career within this business doing the mission, which a lot of times are really great missions. So they are they are they are needed. They are necessary. They're trying to solve a problem, whether it be through business or whether it be through a charitable action. You know, those are separated, but they're all over the place. Right. And so there is a need to be able to have an organization like like Balian or like the undertow to to be able to support and help these individuals to be able to move forward by looking at different funding actions.

32:52 Oh, yeah. Different ways to fund them because oftentimes they get left behind. This is where I have the problem with. I feel like the major problem with the collaboration is and I get it like it's nobody's fault by any means. A lot of the times when you don't see collaboration working out, it's not necessarily because of somebody's trying to be mean or someone is just trying to like get all the I mean, you see that, but not often. Right. Rarely. Right. And I think it's just I think it's more of the fact that these organizations control the funding. They give out the funding and and they can only give up the funding to certain people. It's who they know and stuff. But there's so many people that are that are that are growing and that are coming into this industry as individuals that they need that extra support because you never know the impact that these individuals will have on the world. You know what I mean?

33:42 Like you never know who the next David Attenborough is or you know, you never know who the next Sylvia Earl will be or or Melissa Marquez or Diva Amman. You just never know. And so be but if they don't have that support, then it's then they'll never get there. And so that's where I think Balian becomes such an integral part of the system is because you can provide that support not only from a monetary standpoint, from a funding standpoint, but from like an actual support of like provide them with a community and provide them with that. Right. Like what are your thoughts on that? It's all about community visibility awareness and fundraise is a very big obstacle, but also just consider funding like you mentioned in order to get to the big funds. You need to have some kind of an idea, but not just an idea.

34:33 You need to have a proven idea or ideally an already working organization. But how do you get there if there's no funding, right? It all starts with a bit of awareness and visibility. And like your example with David Attenborough, I don't know, but I can totally imagine and when he was 20 or 30 years old, barely no one knew him. Right. You have to start somewhere, right? Yeah. And I feel like imagine you're an individual considering this idea about how can I make an impact? Just like myself.

35:16 There's not a lot of funds that we have. There's not a lot of time that we have. When we started, we were thinking about this besides our day to day job. We've given up on our day to day job now. But at that time, our time was very limited. So little time, almost no budget, but it was a big difference. And that is we are really, really passionate about where we want to go. So our North Star was there and it hasn't moved. We are this is what we want to do. This is where we are heading. And this intrinsic motivation, this sense of purpose. And I really, really need to end up here in this domain. And this is what I want to do. That's something.

36:03 You only sense this with these smaller individuals, this innovative spirit about, okay, no matter what, I will get there. And you start to make move everything to make that happen. This drive. That's something that's that's super powerful. And that's where also where we feel like, okay, these individuals, these smaller organizations that start. They do need the same attention. And there should be no limitation on on the smaller initiatives. They should deserve the same respect and the same visibility like like the bigger ones. We all make impact in our own way.

36:49 But it should not be limited by just or how to let me put it in different words, you cannot be successful all at once. You also need to write small 100%. Yeah, and that goes for everything. And it makes so much sense. But how to live upon that, we feel like we can just simply leverage the the the the the the the the the the opportunity there by removing the biggest obstacles. Yeah, and collaboration. Yeah, you will find situations where you cannot collaborate where someone said, Oh, sorry, I don't have priority. But I have my own project. It happens. Yeah, finds the people around you who do have a match. And that's where it starts. So there's already also this this matchmaking in collaboration, you need to find the right person. And if it's not now, yeah, who knows in five years time, we might be just one of these big ones. And I hope I will tell the same at that time, right? But we really, really believe that all these smaller initiatives, all innovation comes can come from anywhere, no matter whether you're a scientist, whether you're an individual like me, whether you live in Australia in Africa, or wherever, I don't care. It's just people, it's in innovation, it's spirits, it's purpose. Let's let's make use of it. It's there.

38:12 Yeah, and there are so many things that need to be done within the ocean. It makes sense for that these these up and comers, right? These individuals who have these ideas who want to bring it to the next level, get that support to bring it to that next level, whatever that level looks like, right? Some will go will jump levels, others will go one step at a time, most of the people will go one step at a time, because that's how how businesses grow and things like that. And, you know, have to have patience and so forth. And so, you know, I think that's a really important thing. And I think it's, I think it's really important. I think I think it's great. Now, you know, when when you work with a bunch of these individuals, you know, through the ballon platform, will they'll probably be people who will collaborate, you know, through the platform or meet through the platform, like, you know, we've been on a couple of meetings together and workshops together on on communication, and we've been on the platform for a long time.

39:10 We're on the platform for a long time, which is a good communication. And there are probably a good, you know, 10 to 12 people who are on the calls at any one one time. And, and it's easy to see the collaboration already. Yeah. Already happened. How do you encourage that on the platform for people to to collaborate? Yeah, of course, some of them already know each other. But what what is that I mentioned this this networking through networking effects. But what I really enjoy seeing is also the new people meeting. Yeah. We have a Dutch organization doing things in the North Sea and they make an impact in a very, very nice way with citizen science.

39:59 We have an organization in Mexico doing coral reef restorations and they are in the same space, but they never met. So this is super enjoyable for me to watch. They're also learning from each other and I am there. I can watch that. I can learn from them as well. And maybe I also have some insight that I can share with them. This networking of bringing people together, bringing organizations together. That's a community. And what I really like about it, there's always these talks about, yeah, we need to make sure that we have our noses pointing the same direction. We need to be fully aligned, but I rarely seen it really aligned like I'm seeing today. Yeah.

40:45 There's only people with a sense of purpose, ocean impact. And it comes from deep inside. So it's from there coming from their personal values most of the time. Then magic happens. There's so different energy in such a meeting and or workshop or conversation that you're having. Shaman articulated to give you information.

41:53 have a feeling in a lot of spaces, and this is not just in ocean conservation, but a lot of spaces, is we don't learn what a good collaboration entails, right? We don't learn how to collaborate with people. We just expect that people will be respectful of each of their own goals, and we try, like, you know, you and I, when we got together, it's like, how can we benefit each other? Like, this is a collaboration. How do we make sure that each of us get value out of this relationship? And I've done this over a number of times, and we always define it together to make sure that we can see value in each other. For new people coming on to the to the Balian platform, what would your suggestions be to ensure that you get healthy collaborations where both parties benefit in some sort of way?

42:42 Yeah, right. In typical business, you will start pitching your idea and how important it is. But at Balian, we did it actually a bit different. We asked for, hey, what are you doing? And where are you going? What do you like to achieve? And before you know it, you have an amazing conversation about this enormous potential or innovation or opportunity that someone sees, which other people have not seen. Oh, wow, I like what you're doing. Do you want me to help you? Right? Yeah, happy to do. And right, that's where that's where in my view is a lot of lost opportunity. If you you need to consider what does the other person want to achieve? And and if you forget about that, how could it become a collaboration if you're only looking to achieve your own goals?

43:36 It cannot work. It's only it might work once, but then it ends. But instead, if you turn it around, hey, what are you doing? What do you want to achieve? And then you can also decide for yourself whether it fits or not. Yeah, but this is where where it starts with and also in business development in general, you should never try coming back to consumer goods, right? Don't develop what you like yourself. No, develop what your customer or your target audience is looking for. I think the same goes for collaboration. If you want to become a successful collaborator. Yeah, I'm definitely not an expert, but I believe like ask for what your your your your opponent, not not the opponent, your your collaborate, your potential collaborator is looking for. Yeah. Yeah.

44:27 I'm going to find a word the right word. No, I know. You're right. You're completely right. You know, it's interesting, too, because we had a workshop this morning just before we did this recording, as I mentioned, we met. And we had Natalie on and she's been great at for communicating and she talks about this sort of strategy of flipping the script on on people when you communicate with people to get them interested instead of saying, you know, my mission or what we're trying to do or, you know, collectively, our mission is to do this is to include, you know, them in the, you know, partnerships or you with and this and that. And I feel like the same thing when you do any kind of collaboration.

45:07 Yeah, you know, is is like just as you mentioned, like, what's your mission? Like, what do you what are you trying to accomplish? And then I think the key is how your project or like say, so if we're collaborating, like we like we are now, you know, the key is like, hey, you have this platform, right? I'm a form of alien. I really believe in it. So now you're trying to accomplish certain goals. So my goal is like, how can I use what I have in terms of my project to benefit you? You know, and so I come up like as I hear what you're trying to do, I'm like, okay, now the the ideas are running. Here's some ideas. What do you think if we did this? You know, come on the podcast, talk about a number of different things within, you know, with working with people and the platform and stuff like that. And you're like, you know, I'm a person and you go back is like, well, why don't you come to some of these workshops and go through the storytelling workshops and everything.

45:58 And it and that's how I feel like that's how it works, right? Is the key is to not only not not only add value to that person to help them accomplish their goals, but also do it in a form where it's like, well, this is what I'm doing. And I think this is where I can help. What are your thoughts on it? Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, now that I'm thinking about it, you need to tell me how you did this. But now that I'm thinking about it, what one of the things that we drastically changed is we we really made a careful decision to put everything we're doing out in the open. So you can find our fully transparent, you can find our handbook and how we deal with each other, how we're organized, everything is out in the open. And yeah, why not, right? We have not we don't have anything to hide. If you're collaborating, there needs to be a certain base of trust. And we really started wondering for ourselves, why should we hide anything? Do we have secrets? Should there be something that other people should not know? Right. And we came to the conclusion. It's not like that there.

47:08 There is none. So we're communicating as openly as we can. We're we're started, we make mistakes, we make a lot of mistakes. And if you don't mind, just tell me. Well, correct it. And in return, I can help you as well. Yeah, very different, very different. And in a way, for me, it's very refreshing. And this is also what I sensed in our collaboration, right? There's a lot more openness in when we first met. And yeah, I'm also curious to see how you do that, then, right? You need to bring a lot of people together as well. Yeah, yeah.

47:51 And it brings a lot of curiosity. How do others people other people do that? And yeah, sometimes it's just a matter of asking. Yeah, it's true. And I like how you mentioned the transparency. That's a that's an important aspect. You know, one of the things that I've done through the podcast is I don't edit my interviews. You know, I tell people I don't unless they there's something that they said that they're like, Hey, you know what, Andrew, like, I shouldn't have said that that was a project that was coming out later. And, you know, before that and that kind of stuff. But for the most part, I don't want to be as. I want to, I think they're better, better. I want to be as upfront. And the reason why is is the trust, right? Is to be like look, this is the conversation that we had. I don't want to be to be known as manipulating the interview. And the reason why did that when I especially when I first started, I really focused on that telling people is because a lot of the scientists that I was talking to you had had bad experiences with, you know, bad press, like bad journal. Yeah, sure. And and, and so forth. Not to say that any manipulated in a different way and they didn't like it. So they didn't trust the media. And so I said, look, I'm a scientist. One of the reasons why I'm doing this is to get your information out there.

49:01 So I'm here to promote you. I'm here to promote the work that you do. I listened to or read your work and I'm a big fan of it. And I want people to know about the project that you're doing or the study that you just published on it and so forth. And that really garnered a lot. People are more relaxed when you do the interview. You know, they're not as uptight. They're not as nervous. It's more like this kind of like this is more of a conversation. And I think it's a very important aspect to the work that I do. And not a lot. I never, I don't usually advertise it because I don't need to because like the conversation is all out there. And it's kind of funny because I've had, you know, some people, not many, but some people who are just like, oh, well, you know, your interviews are like really long. And, you know, do you need to know every bit of detail about that person? And you're just like, no, you don't. But it also goes towards that personality of that scientist or that conservationist or that person, my guest.

49:54 And people get to know them a little bit more. Plus, you know, I published everything because I don't want it to be, I don't want to like just cut it and cut it and cut it and try and manipulate it into a different story. I want the conversation. I want people to like basically you're sitting in on a conversation I'm having. That's why I started the podcast and how that's the focus of the structure of the podcast. And I think that's important, but it goes back to my point of the, and your point of the transparency and trust to build. And then at the end of the episode, people are like, I love this. Like this was a lot of fun to do. Can we do another one? You know, I've had people ask right off the bat, like, hey, let's meet and let's do another one. Like this is a lot of fun. Yeah, that's how my podcast, you already promised me one.

50:38 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like right off the bat. But I mean, I know you more like we've had conversations and stuff. But you know, like, like it's it but it's an important aspect for people to enjoy the, you know, the enjoy the process. You know, I want them to have a good time on the on the show when they're recording because it can be intimidating. You know, the what you know, I remember when I first started when I turned that microphone on and press record, I was like, Oh, gosh, like this is not, you know, you get nervous, you worry about what you say, I want people to be relaxed, you know, that you're in good hands, and I'll, I'll bring you through it. And that's why I find we've had such great experiences with with interviews and conversations, we've been able to talk about some difficult topics that have been that have been talked about.

51:27 But trust is a huge aspect to that. And and I think you're right. I think it's a it's a big part of of collaborations, you know, is to have that transparency and have that trust. Yeah, well, thanks for sharing it. I liked it. I liked it did the overlap there. And I can confirm I wasn't nervous. Right, right. It does work. It does work. Yeah. The trust is a super important thing. And for me, it also starts with authenticity. You cannot be someone else because all the others are already taken. And in a way, if you're open about who you are, yeah, that helps a lot. And people sense it when you're not honest about what you're doing. Yeah. So why hide it?

52:21 Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. I think I think you're right. Look, this has been an amazing conversation. I love talking about this because I think it really brings out into the open. There's a lot of people who've had some good, great experiences and awful experiences on the other end of that spectrum with collaborations. And I think it's great to be able to discuss what to expect, you know, and and I think also, you know, being up front with people like, look, I want to have this conversation. I want both of us to benefit from this relationship if this is going to move forward. And if not, then that's fine. You know, if you don't see, I always tell people if we don't see a eye to eye on certain things, there's no hard feelings and we just go for it. As long as we both get value out of it, then it works well. And I think that's what a lot of people need to. I think we almost have to teach that a little bit in terms of what collaborations will look like and what it should look like and what it shouldn't look like. And I think that's an important aspect. So, Bart, this was amazing to do this. I want to have you back here.

53:22 I want to have you back on very, very shortly. We're going to have a lot of conversations because it'd be a lot of fun. But but yeah, so if people want to know where they can get more information on you, where shall we send them? Yeah, well, we have our website, of course. But some. Yeah, a website is just one thing. There's always a thought behind it. And in the end, it's just a screen that you're watching. If you feel like, oh, wow, I like what these guys are doing, or I like the story. Yeah, just reach out to us. We have a contact form. We are on LinkedIn. So yeah, feel free to reach out. And that's how we have been working with Ford now, officially six months.

54:08 We started a bit earlier. But also how we met, right? So yeah, exactly. I like what they're doing, or I have this thought. Yeah, happy to learn. It's not so much about teaching. It's more about learning for myself. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, perfect. I love that. We'll put the website in the show notes. It's baileyand.org. Yeah. And so put that in there so people can get a and we'll put right to the link right to the contact page too. So if people want to get in touch with you, they can. Bart, thank you so much for having coming on the podcast and we love having you on and looking forward to having you on again. Yeah. Yeah. Now we're still small. So also we need to build our.

54:49 Yeah, so happy to do that. Thanks, Andrew. I like your your openness in in sharing your experiences that I also learned a lot from you here. Absolutely. Well, there's you know, there's trust. We got to build with the audience too. And so showing where you came from all the time and then the value that they bring to me is amazing as well. Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah. All right. Awesome. We'll talk to you. Yeah, we'll be soon. Yeah. Thank you, Bart, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. It was great to be able to talk to you about collaborations about Balian and what it could do and what a good collaboration can do to help get people to the next level of their mission to help protect the ocean.

55:30 It's always important to be able to discuss this. And so if you want to follow up with Bart, if you have any questions, you can do so. Go to Balian dot org. So it's B A L E A N dot org. That's B A L E A N dot org. There will be a link in the show notes or in the description below if you're watching this on YouTube. Love to hear your comments. So if you want to put your comments down below or send me an email, go to speakupforblue.com forward slash contact and just fill out the form. But also you'll see me in the email. You'll see me in the undertow in that community can go to speakupforblue.com forward slash join the undertow to join that group and you'll see a lot more of lead in there. So I want to thank Bart, our guest. It's the first time, but not the last time he'll be on. And I want to thank him for being on. It was great to have him on being so transparent, so collaborative. And I want to thank you, the listener, for listening to this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

56:23 From the true north strong and free. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.