Deep Sea Mining in U.S. Waters: A New Era of Ocean Extraction

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A couple of weeks ago, as a way in

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Jamaica, I get news that

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Donald Trump has signed an

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executive order to allow the US to deep

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sea mine, not only in

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the US exclusive economics

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zone, but also in the high seas, which

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goes against the UN law of the sea.

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I'm close.

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And so where do we go from here?

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I was like, where do I do when I need

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information on deep sea mining?

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I get an email right away from a good

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friend of mine, Dr. Andrew Thaler.

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He says, "Hey, Andrew, do you want to

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talk about this

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executive order about deep sea

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mining in the US?"

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I'm like, absolutely I do.

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Hey everybody, welcome back to another

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exciting episode of the How

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to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

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This is the podcast where you find out

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what's happening with the

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ocean, how you can speak

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up for the ocean and what you can do to

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live for a better ocean by taking action.

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And action is what you might need to do

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today because we are

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going to be talking about the

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executive order that was signed by Donald

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Trump a couple of weeks ago that looks at

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deep sea mining in US waters as well as

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the high seas, which is

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kind of interesting because

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the US has not ratified the

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UN law of the sea on close.

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And so why are they

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considering going into the high seas?

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There's a lot of repercussions that can

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come from that that can

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not only be repercussions

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for the US, but also for other countries

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and just in general, the ocean and

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listening to UN policies.

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But also deep sea mining

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is a threat to the ocean.

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And we just don't know how much of a

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threat it is because there

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hasn't been a huge amount of

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understanding of deep sea processes as

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well as what would happen

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to those deep sea processes

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should we start to

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fiddle around in the deep sea.

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But it's okay because Dr. Andrew Thaler

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is here today to talk about

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what this new executive order

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means. How is it going to play a role in

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the future? Do we need to

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be worried about something?

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Is the US able to start production and

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how long it'll take? And

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is this going to happen just

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during this administration or is it going

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to happen over a

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number of administrations?

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We're going to talk about that today. So

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here's the interview with

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Dr. Andrew Taylor talking

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about the executive order for the US deep

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sea mine in the US as

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well as in the high seas.

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Enjoy the interview and I will talk to

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you after. Hey, Andrew,

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welcome back on this wonderful

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episode of the how to protect the ocean

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podcast. Are you ready to

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talk about the Americans deep

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sea mining? Is it going to happen or is

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it not going to happen?

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We're going to talk about it.

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Are you ready? Absolutely. I am.

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Wonderful. This is going to

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be a lot of fun. You know,

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obviously people know I've talked about

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on the podcast before

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that, you know, the US, the US

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administration, Donald Trump has sent an

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executive order to explore deep sea

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mining within the US as

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well as outside of the US, which is

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against UNCLOS, right? The UN Convention

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of the Law of the Sea.

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I think it's, I never able to remember

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that that acronym. UNCLOS it

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is. We can just call it the

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Law of the Sea. Yeah, there you go. Law

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of the Sea. So it's a lot of

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interesting things. We know

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Donald Trump doesn't like to play by the

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rules. He's not playing by

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the rules. So you are the one

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of the experts, foremost experts on deep

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sea mining. You've come

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on the podcast a number of

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times to talk about deep sea mining. So

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I'm very happy that you hit me up

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yesterday and was like,

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hey, you want to talk about deep sea by

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the US? I'm like, absolutely

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I do. We did it the next day

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and I'm happy we're doing it today. So

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let's just talk about

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it. You know, first, first,

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but actually before we talk about it,

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Andrew, why don't you just remind people

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who you are and what

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you do? All right. Well, hello, everyone.

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I am a Dr. Andrew Thaler.

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I am a deep sea ecologist,

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a conservation technologist and an ocean

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educator. And I run a small environmental

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consulting firm that focuses on high seas

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policy, technology and education.

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And we're going to talk about everything

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that you are, that you

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run in your company, because

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DC Mining, like this is, this is

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interesting. We've talked about it

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before. We talked about every,

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you know, I think it's every six months,

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the everybody gets together

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in Kingston, Jamaica, and we

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taught, they talk about DC Mining.

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Usually we have you on to kind of debrief

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and figure out what went

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on and where we're at. Seems like a lot

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of changes were happening. The last out

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of the last meeting,

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the mining company, a Canadian company

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basically said, hey, you

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know, we're done with all these

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regulations that are happening at the

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ISA, the International Sea Bed

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Association. We are done.

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We are going to go to the US. We're going

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to propose the US to do deep sea mining.

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You know, seemed like we didn't really, I

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don't know if we actually

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heard from the US to say,

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yes, we're going to, but they seem to be

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happy about it. But then

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you put out an article talking

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about, you know, is it really feasible?

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So let's start there was

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originally, was it actually

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feasible for this to happen? All right.

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So before we can get into

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that, we got to talk about what

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did happen? Yes, please do. So there's

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two things happening kind of

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simultaneously. There's the Metals

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Company, which is the Canadian Deep Sea

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Mining Company. They

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have announced that they are

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frustrated with the ISA process. They do

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not believe that the ISA

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is acting in good faith and

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acting as a good regulator of the

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industry. They think it is being

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stonewalled by stakeholders who

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are opposed to deep sea mining and that

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the regulations are never

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going to come. And so they

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have said they're going to go it alone.

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They're going to go to the

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United States. They're going to

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apply for a mining permit under NOAA,

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which NOAA has purview through the deep

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sea bed hard minerals

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act over mineral resources in the high

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seas purview, not necessarily authority,

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the deep sea bed hard

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minerals act was passed before on class

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was ratified. And it was

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designed to be phased out

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if and when on class was ratified. So

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there's questions about whether or not

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the deep sea bed hard

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minerals act is really applicable. The US

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currently says it is the current

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President of the United States has

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issued an executive order saying no one

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has this authority. Legal scholars say

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wait a minute, probably not.

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The mining company wants to go the Metals

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Company wants to go gung ho and get to

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mining because they

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are a private company.

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They have limited financial resources.

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You know, they're not China.

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They're not Russia. They're not

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France. They don't have basically

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unlimited resources to commit to this

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industry. They have a burn rate.

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Unfortunately for them, the health of the

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ocean is not beholden to the

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burn rate of private companies,

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but they are attempting to begin mining

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in the high seas through the United

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States. And they are

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applying weirdly enough

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for the area that was permitted to them

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through Nauru. So there's a lot of

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questions now about what

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does that mean for their

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international relationships? What does

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that mean for the partnerships they've

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built through the ISA? If they mine

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through the US in

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defiance of ISA regulations,

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how do they then get the permits to mine

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in the areas that were

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supposed to be reserved for Nauru?

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Where do they land their metals? They

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have to land them in the US, both through

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the deep sea bed hard

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minerals act and because of

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the Jones Act, they have to bring those

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minerals back to the US. The US doesn't

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have processing capacity for those

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minerals right now. So are we just

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stockpiling them? And who's paying for

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that stockpile?

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Spoilers, I am. The US taxpayer.

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Yeah, if they are landed. And so it's

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really throwing things into a lot of

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chaos because this is

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completely unknown territory.

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The US has followed the law of the sea as

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customary law since UNCLOS was ratified.

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The US signed UNCLOS. They did not ratify

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it, but they signed it.

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And they signed it after negotiating

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specifically for carve outs within the

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creation of the ISA. So, you know, we

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have we exist right now under an

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administration that is

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very gung ho and very anti UN.

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Deep sea mining is a much longer play

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than the lifespan of a single

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presidential administration, especially a

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lame duck president who

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doesn't get another term.

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So, you know, whether or not they

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convince Trump to allow them to mine,

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there may be new questions raised when

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the next president who almost certainly

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will be elected based on opposition to

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Trump Trump policies, I think is going to

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be it's very hard to see a different kind

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of future where you have

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another Trumpian president.

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So there will be I mean, the US president

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flip flops. That's generally how we go

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with elections. Yeah.

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So, you know, they how that is going to

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rack up against the next presidential

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administration or the next Congress

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because Congress generally flip flops in

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the second term of a presidency to.

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And so it's really it's a strange moment

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01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:43,083
for international policy. All the

276
01:08:43,083 --> 01:08:44,416
international partners are furious

277
01:08:44,416 --> 01:08:46,833
because they have been working on getting

278
01:08:46,833 --> 01:08:48,916
these mining regulations done for years.

279
01:08:48,916 --> 01:08:50,458
And it is a difficult

280
01:08:50,458 --> 01:08:52,416
negotiation. It is a process.

281
01:08:53,416 --> 01:08:55,125
I think the argument that it's being

282
01:08:55,125 --> 01:08:56,791
stonewalled does not hold very much

283
01:08:56,791 --> 01:08:59,833
water. Right. You know, this is a long

284
01:08:59,833 --> 01:09:01,708
process. This is a big international

285
01:09:01,708 --> 01:09:03,458
negotiation. Uncloshed

286
01:09:03,458 --> 01:09:05,250
itself took 30 years to negotiate.

287
01:09:05,750 --> 01:09:07,625
And we're only on, you know, we've only

288
01:09:07,625 --> 01:09:09,458
really been negotiating the mining code

289
01:09:09,458 --> 01:09:12,375
seriously for the last 10 years. And

290
01:09:12,375 --> 01:09:14,333
technology has only been online even to

291
01:09:14,333 --> 01:09:16,208
reasonably get us close to mining within

292
01:09:16,208 --> 01:09:18,166
the last two. So I think it's a bit

293
01:09:18,166 --> 01:09:19,291
farcical to say that

294
01:09:19,291 --> 01:09:20,083
it's being stonewalled.

295
01:09:20,708 --> 01:09:22,250
Well, do you think it's just more they're

296
01:09:22,250 --> 01:09:24,416
using as an excuse because they know that

297
01:09:24,416 --> 01:09:27,416
the president will be will be on board

298
01:09:27,416 --> 01:09:29,541
for this type of work? You know, they're

299
01:09:29,541 --> 01:09:30,625
just using as an excuse.

300
01:09:31,041 --> 01:09:33,541
That's an assumption, but it's a Canadian

301
01:09:33,541 --> 01:09:36,000
company. It's a multinational company.

302
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:38,125
They've got employees in London. They've

303
01:09:38,125 --> 01:09:39,750
got employees in Canada. They've got

304
01:09:39,750 --> 01:09:41,541
employees in Australia. They don't have

305
01:09:41,541 --> 01:09:42,750
that many employees in the US.

306
01:09:42,958 --> 01:09:46,125
And, you know, there's a cynical

307
01:09:46,125 --> 01:09:47,833
interpretation that they're like, oh,

308
01:09:47,833 --> 01:09:49,500
yeah, Trump's in power. We should go for

309
01:09:49,500 --> 01:09:50,500
it. But I think the more reasonable

310
01:09:50,500 --> 01:09:52,208
interpretation is they're running out of

311
01:09:52,208 --> 01:09:54,208
money and they need to get they need to

312
01:09:54,208 --> 01:09:56,916
get to profitability quick or they're

313
01:09:56,916 --> 01:09:58,375
never going to be able to continue.

314
01:09:58,375 --> 01:10:01,500
And they're just probably playing the

315
01:10:01,500 --> 01:10:04,000
cards. They've been dealt the best they

316
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:06,291
can. And it just so happens to be up,

317
01:10:06,291 --> 01:10:09,333
upending, you know, a multilateral regime

318
01:10:09,333 --> 01:10:10,333
at the moment. Right.

319
01:10:10,375 --> 01:10:12,208
But I think, you know, I think the

320
01:10:12,208 --> 01:10:13,625
reality of the situation is they're just

321
01:10:13,625 --> 01:10:15,500
they're running out of money. Private

322
01:10:15,500 --> 01:10:17,166
company. They got it. They got to get to

323
01:10:17,166 --> 01:10:21,291
profitability. Yeah. On that token, a

324
01:10:21,291 --> 01:10:24,375
second company has entered the fray. And

325
01:10:24,375 --> 01:10:27,750
this is impossible metals. And you've

326
01:10:27,750 --> 01:10:29,750
talked to Oliver Gonserka

327
01:10:29,750 --> 01:10:31,333
from impossible metals before.

328
01:10:31,375 --> 01:10:33,583
Yes. Over. Yeah. Over LinkedIn. Yeah.

329
01:10:33,750 --> 01:10:35,833
Yeah. And he you know, they have a much

330
01:10:35,833 --> 01:10:40,083
more cautious approach and they have a

331
01:10:40,083 --> 01:10:42,750
different set of mining technologies. And

332
01:10:42,750 --> 01:10:45,125
on the same token, they have applied for

333
01:10:45,125 --> 01:10:49,583
a permit to do pilot studies within the

334
01:10:49,583 --> 01:10:53,083
US easy off the coast of American Samoa.

335
01:10:53,833 --> 01:10:57,125
And, you know, whatever you want to think

336
01:10:57,125 --> 01:10:59,833
about the validity of deep sea mining on

337
01:10:59,833 --> 01:11:03,041
its own, that is at least a legally

338
01:11:03,041 --> 01:11:06,000
defensible position. The US does have

339
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:07,958
authority to issue permits in its own

340
01:11:07,958 --> 01:11:09,791
exclusive economic zone. Right.

341
01:11:11,208 --> 01:11:13,125
Companies have a right to apply for those

342
01:11:13,125 --> 01:11:15,375
permits. They applied last year under the

343
01:11:15,375 --> 01:11:17,458
last administration and were rejected. So

344
01:11:17,458 --> 01:11:19,000
this is a fresh application.

345
01:11:19,750 --> 01:11:21,666
They're also they're not at nearly as

346
01:11:21,666 --> 01:11:23,625
close to commercialization, I think, as

347
01:11:23,625 --> 01:11:26,041
the metals company is. And so they're in

348
01:11:26,041 --> 01:11:27,541
the process of doing their environmental

349
01:11:27,541 --> 01:11:29,666
impact assessments of doing their pilot

350
01:11:29,666 --> 01:11:33,958
studies of seeing how commercialization

351
01:11:33,958 --> 01:11:34,708
might move forward

352
01:11:34,708 --> 01:11:35,583
using their technology.

353
01:11:36,416 --> 01:11:38,916
So we've got kind of deep sea mining

354
01:11:38,916 --> 01:11:41,291
coming on two fronts in the US right now.

355
01:11:41,291 --> 01:11:43,458
We've got the national regime, which has

356
01:11:43,458 --> 01:11:46,333
a much more stable legal framework to

357
01:11:46,333 --> 01:11:48,083
rely on. And then we've got the

358
01:11:48,083 --> 01:11:49,333
international regime, which is just

359
01:11:49,333 --> 01:11:50,833
throwing everything into complete chaos.

360
01:11:51,500 --> 01:11:53,250
And on top of all that, because there's

361
01:11:53,250 --> 01:11:54,875
always an end on top of all that.

362
01:11:55,375 --> 01:11:57,791
No, I has lost 28% of its workforce.

363
01:11:58,791 --> 01:12:00,958
Department of the Interior, Boa has lost.

364
01:12:00,958 --> 01:12:02,291
I don't have the numbers on it, but a

365
01:12:02,291 --> 01:12:04,291
significant percentage of its workforce.

366
01:12:05,458 --> 01:12:07,000
The people who would be reviewing and

367
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:10,000
revising these permits to as far as I am

368
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:14,625
currently aware have all been retired or

369
01:12:14,625 --> 01:12:16,333
forcibly retired basically.

370
01:12:16,375 --> 01:12:18,416
Well, they took the ones I know I know I

371
01:12:18,416 --> 01:12:20,416
took the Vera that the voluntary

372
01:12:20,416 --> 01:12:23,250
retirement program, the buyout. So it's

373
01:12:23,250 --> 01:12:26,083
not forcibly forcible. Like it's not one

374
01:12:26,083 --> 01:12:27,958
of these cases that's being tied up in

375
01:12:27,958 --> 01:12:29,666
legal struggles because it was legal

376
01:12:29,666 --> 01:12:32,083
firing, but they were close to retiring.

377
01:12:32,291 --> 01:12:33,666
They decided I'm going to I'm going to

378
01:12:33,666 --> 01:12:35,208
retire, which kind of helps the younger

379
01:12:35,208 --> 01:12:37,458
generation that's coming into right or

380
01:12:37,458 --> 01:12:39,166
were eligible for retirement and didn't

381
01:12:39,166 --> 01:12:40,500
want to deal with it. There are people,

382
01:12:40,500 --> 01:12:42,666
you know, if you've put in your time, you

383
01:12:42,666 --> 01:12:43,333
may not be close to 65.

384
01:12:43,333 --> 01:12:45,125
But if you put in your time, you're

385
01:12:45,125 --> 01:12:46,708
eligible to take their time and buyout

386
01:12:46,708 --> 01:12:50,583
and you can go do something else. But you

387
01:12:50,583 --> 01:12:52,750
know, the executive order calls for an

388
01:12:52,750 --> 01:12:54,375
expediting of the permitting process, but

389
01:12:54,375 --> 01:12:56,000
they don't have the personnel to do that.

390
01:12:56,416 --> 01:12:58,041
So it's going to be from a logistics

391
01:12:58,041 --> 01:12:59,416
standpoint. It's going to be a very

392
01:12:59,416 --> 01:13:00,750
interesting few months

393
01:13:00,750 --> 01:13:02,333
watching how any of this plays out.

394
01:13:03,208 --> 01:13:06,125
But is the idea of taking away the people

395
01:13:06,125 --> 01:13:08,291
to review because there's a review

396
01:13:08,291 --> 01:13:10,958
process for every permit is the idea to

397
01:13:10,958 --> 01:13:12,791
take away that review and just to rubber

398
01:13:12,791 --> 01:13:13,791
stamp anybody who

399
01:13:13,791 --> 01:13:15,208
wants to put a proposal in.

400
01:13:15,875 --> 01:13:18,458
You know, if I do mining companies and if

401
01:13:18,458 --> 01:13:20,791
I were Noah and if I were any reasonable

402
01:13:20,791 --> 01:13:22,791
person, I absolutely would not want that

403
01:13:22,791 --> 01:13:24,333
to be the case because right.

404
01:13:24,375 --> 01:13:27,416
Like I said, this is a long process if if

405
01:13:27,416 --> 01:13:29,083
they get their first permit to do their

406
01:13:29,083 --> 01:13:31,041
experimental test mining for impossible

407
01:13:31,041 --> 01:13:33,583
or if they get their first permits to do

408
01:13:33,583 --> 01:13:35,916
commercialization for the metals company.

409
01:13:36,583 --> 01:13:38,000
And there are questions about that

410
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:40,208
permit. They're going to be vulnerable to

411
01:13:40,208 --> 01:13:43,625
lawsuits for the next 10 years. They'll

412
01:13:43,625 --> 01:13:45,291
get bled out long before they get a

413
01:13:45,291 --> 01:13:46,083
chance to reach profitability.

414
01:13:46,333 --> 01:13:47,500
So, you know, if I were one of these

415
01:13:47,500 --> 01:13:49,000
companies, I absolutely would not want a

416
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:51,458
rubber stamped permit expedited is one

417
01:13:51,458 --> 01:13:54,291
thing rubber stamped is perhaps true, not

418
01:13:54,291 --> 01:13:56,250
what anyone wants to see because that

419
01:13:56,250 --> 01:13:57,291
makes everyone vulnerable.

420
01:13:57,333 --> 01:14:00,000
And of course, they overturned the

421
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:03,666
Chevron doctrine, which means that NGOs

422
01:14:03,666 --> 01:14:06,750
can just constantly sue for regulations.

423
01:14:06,750 --> 01:14:08,250
They don't agree with because now we

424
01:14:08,250 --> 01:14:10,708
don't have this doctrine within the US

425
01:14:10,708 --> 01:14:12,458
that defaults regulatory

426
01:14:12,458 --> 01:14:13,750
judgments to the regulator.

427
01:14:14,791 --> 01:14:18,916
Right. Gotcha. Okay. So it's what I'm

428
01:14:18,916 --> 01:14:20,791
going to say is that everything in the US

429
01:14:20,791 --> 01:14:24,000
is chaos right now and you know, take

430
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:25,375
everything I say with a grain of salt

431
01:14:25,375 --> 01:14:27,416
because it is very hard to predict what

432
01:14:27,416 --> 01:14:29,458
the next six months or two years or four

433
01:14:29,458 --> 01:14:30,958
years or even the next week

434
01:14:30,958 --> 01:14:32,583
at some time or the next week.

435
01:14:32,583 --> 01:14:33,708
What's gonna happen? I don't know what

436
01:14:33,708 --> 01:14:34,625
it's gonna look like when

437
01:14:34,625 --> 01:14:35,916
it's time for happy hour tonight.

438
01:14:36,541 --> 01:14:39,250
Yeah, it's true. Well, it's like it was a

439
01:14:39,250 --> 01:14:41,458
surprise, right? I were you surprised

440
01:14:41,458 --> 01:14:44,541
when this all came out, you know, the

441
01:14:44,541 --> 01:14:46,500
metals company making this announcement,

442
01:14:46,750 --> 01:14:49,291
but also that was like maybe less than a

443
01:14:49,291 --> 01:14:52,583
month before the executive order came out

444
01:14:52,583 --> 01:14:55,375
and and it didn't seem to be and I and it

445
01:14:55,375 --> 01:14:58,166
didn't seem to be at the forefront of a

446
01:14:58,166 --> 01:15:01,333
lot of a lot of talk on social media.

447
01:15:01,375 --> 01:15:02,916
Definitely not mainstream media because

448
01:15:02,916 --> 01:15:05,625
there's more going on than this, but it

449
01:15:05,625 --> 01:15:08,416
never really there's a bit of like the

450
01:15:08,416 --> 01:15:09,875
announcement cause a little bit of buzz.

451
01:15:09,875 --> 01:15:11,333
But before that, it never really was

452
01:15:11,333 --> 01:15:14,250
talked about as much as like this is

453
01:15:14,250 --> 01:15:15,250
coming down the pipe.

454
01:15:15,250 --> 01:15:16,625
Like we're expecting this to come down.

455
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:18,250
Was you were you surprised by the

456
01:15:18,250 --> 01:15:19,958
executive order? So we had heard rumors

457
01:15:19,958 --> 01:15:22,083
about the executive order for about two

458
01:15:22,083 --> 01:15:23,083
months leading up to

459
01:15:23,083 --> 01:15:24,333
one actually came out.

460
01:15:24,333 --> 01:15:26,583
And it was one of those things where like

461
01:15:26,583 --> 01:15:28,208
every two or three days I'd be getting a

462
01:15:28,208 --> 01:15:29,875
text message from one of my colleagues

463
01:15:29,875 --> 01:15:31,166
being like, I heard it's coming out

464
01:15:31,166 --> 01:15:32,708
today. It's gonna come out tonight. It's

465
01:15:32,708 --> 01:15:33,291
gonna come out tonight.

466
01:15:33,625 --> 01:15:35,500
You know, by the time it actually came

467
01:15:35,500 --> 01:15:38,375
out, I was so inert to hearing this.

468
01:15:38,708 --> 01:15:40,583
Yeah, I was skeptical that we'd ever see

469
01:15:40,583 --> 01:15:42,500
it. Gotcha. But we had heard rumblings of

470
01:15:42,500 --> 01:15:45,375
the EO would come out. The thing that

471
01:15:45,375 --> 01:15:48,666
really surprised people, I think was the

472
01:15:48,666 --> 01:15:50,666
metals company saying they were going for

473
01:15:50,666 --> 01:15:51,333
mining in the high seas.

474
01:15:51,333 --> 01:15:54,666
I was expecting an EO that was going to

475
01:15:54,666 --> 01:15:57,916
focus on building refining capacity,

476
01:15:57,916 --> 01:15:59,291
which the administration has been talking

477
01:15:59,291 --> 01:16:01,416
about for critical minerals and

478
01:16:01,416 --> 01:16:05,333
developing resources within the US easy.

479
01:16:05,333 --> 01:16:08,208
I was not expecting them to go straight

480
01:16:08,208 --> 01:16:09,583
up to the line of challenging the

481
01:16:09,583 --> 01:16:11,583
international seabed authority because

482
01:16:11,583 --> 01:16:14,375
this is a multinational industry. And,

483
01:16:14,375 --> 01:16:16,166
you know, the US is the only major

484
01:16:16,166 --> 01:16:17,750
economy that hasn't ratified the law of

485
01:16:17,750 --> 01:16:20,500
the sea blowing up the law of the sea for

486
01:16:20,500 --> 01:16:23,708
one small, relatively small company in

487
01:16:23,708 --> 01:16:26,041
the grand scheme of things seems like a

488
01:16:26,041 --> 01:16:27,541
terrible development

489
01:16:27,541 --> 01:16:28,333
for the entire industry.

490
01:16:28,375 --> 01:16:32,291
Is it legal? Like, can they are they

491
01:16:32,291 --> 01:16:35,458
allowed to actually go into the high seas

492
01:16:35,458 --> 01:16:37,958
and do deep sea mining? They haven't

493
01:16:37,958 --> 01:16:41,125
ratified on close or law of the sea. So

494
01:16:41,125 --> 01:16:44,250
how are they allowed to go in? Or is it

495
01:16:44,250 --> 01:16:45,333
just more of who's going to stop them?

496
01:16:45,375 --> 01:16:49,083
So I think there's a fundamental

497
01:16:49,083 --> 01:16:52,041
misunderstanding about how the UN

498
01:16:52,041 --> 01:16:55,333
functions as an authority, because the UN

499
01:16:55,333 --> 01:16:58,583
itself is not like an authority. It's not

500
01:16:58,583 --> 01:16:59,916
a police. There's no enforcement or

501
01:16:59,916 --> 01:17:02,875
anything. It is a collective of nations

502
01:17:02,875 --> 01:17:08,250
that agree to different treaties, to

503
01:17:08,250 --> 01:17:09,333
different agreements.

504
01:17:09,458 --> 01:17:14,041
And it's functionally I don't know if you

505
01:17:14,041 --> 01:17:15,541
were ever in like an outdoor education

506
01:17:15,541 --> 01:17:18,416
program in college or if you've ever been

507
01:17:18,416 --> 01:17:21,416
involved in some of these fun little like

508
01:17:21,416 --> 01:17:24,541
communal living group experiments that

509
01:17:24,541 --> 01:17:28,375
do. Okay, so the UN is an anarchic

510
01:17:28,375 --> 01:17:29,333
organization in the

511
01:17:29,333 --> 01:17:30,333
political definition of anarchy.

512
01:17:30,333 --> 01:17:34,541
It is structurally composed of entities

513
01:17:34,541 --> 01:17:37,750
who all have co equal voices and

514
01:17:37,750 --> 01:17:40,125
representation within the institution

515
01:17:40,125 --> 01:17:42,791
with huge caveats. Obviously, you know,

516
01:17:42,791 --> 01:17:44,125
the bigger the country, the more you can

517
01:17:44,125 --> 01:17:45,750
bully people around, which is also how

518
01:17:45,750 --> 01:17:49,250
communes work. But functionally speaking,

519
01:17:49,250 --> 01:17:51,625
the UN is built on consensus. So when the

520
01:17:51,625 --> 01:17:53,291
ISA is having these negotiations, they're

521
01:17:53,291 --> 01:17:55,750
not necessarily voting on the mining

522
01:17:55,750 --> 01:17:57,458
code. They're trying to consent to the

523
01:17:57,458 --> 01:17:58,375
mining. It's getting

524
01:17:58,375 --> 01:17:59,333
everyone into agreement.

525
01:18:00,125 --> 01:18:02,125
And that causes a lot of trouble. It

526
01:18:02,125 --> 01:18:04,375
causes a lot of heartache. It's very

527
01:18:04,375 --> 01:18:07,666
difficult to get 169 nations to consent

528
01:18:07,666 --> 01:18:11,250
on one thing on anything. So there's a

529
01:18:11,250 --> 01:18:13,083
lot of political back and forth. There's

530
01:18:13,083 --> 01:18:14,083
a lot of these maneuvers.

531
01:18:14,375 --> 01:18:16,875
And there are kind of these these

532
01:18:16,875 --> 01:18:19,416
consensual agreements about like how

533
01:18:19,416 --> 01:18:21,166
decisions are made and when there are

534
01:18:21,166 --> 01:18:22,875
disagreements, how those get decided. So

535
01:18:22,875 --> 01:18:24,750
there is it loss, the international

536
01:18:24,750 --> 01:18:26,750
tribunal on the Law of the Sea, which

537
01:18:26,750 --> 01:18:29,125
will hear cases between member states who

538
01:18:29,125 --> 01:18:29,916
believe that they're

539
01:18:29,916 --> 01:18:30,916
in violation of UNCLOS.

540
01:18:31,458 --> 01:18:34,083
But critically, the US is not a member

541
01:18:34,083 --> 01:18:36,750
state. We are not party to UNCLOS. We

542
01:18:36,750 --> 01:18:38,583
have treated it as customary law and we

543
01:18:38,583 --> 01:18:40,041
have accepted it as custom money law,

544
01:18:40,416 --> 01:18:41,833
customary law, which means for most of

545
01:18:41,833 --> 01:18:44,416
the existence of the Law of the Sea, we

546
01:18:44,416 --> 01:18:46,291
have been beholden to it, but not in a

547
01:18:46,291 --> 01:18:47,916
position to negotiate it.

548
01:18:50,166 --> 01:18:53,000
If we say we're just going to ignore it,

549
01:18:54,375 --> 01:18:59,041
who like the repercussions are trade

550
01:18:59,041 --> 01:19:00,666
disputes, which I don't know if you're

551
01:19:00,666 --> 01:19:02,041
aware, but the US does not appear to be

552
01:19:02,041 --> 01:19:04,291
particularly concerned about angering all

553
01:19:04,291 --> 01:19:05,666
of its trade partners at the moment.

554
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:06,458
Apparently not.

555
01:19:08,041 --> 01:19:09,833
There can be punitive actions about

556
01:19:09,833 --> 01:19:11,666
access to resources and access supply.

557
01:19:11,875 --> 01:19:13,083
China can say, well, we're just going to

558
01:19:13,083 --> 01:19:14,083
shut down your access to

559
01:19:14,083 --> 01:19:14,875
all our other resources.

560
01:19:15,500 --> 01:19:15,708
Yeah.

561
01:19:17,208 --> 01:19:19,250
You know, there can be like diplomatic

562
01:19:19,250 --> 01:19:21,500
consequences. Embassies can get kicked

563
01:19:21,500 --> 01:19:24,875
out. Visas can get revoked. It can become

564
01:19:24,875 --> 01:19:26,666
much more difficult for an American to

565
01:19:26,666 --> 01:19:27,916
travel to different countries.

566
01:19:29,041 --> 01:19:31,333
But in terms of actual like hardline

567
01:19:31,333 --> 01:19:33,458
punitive actions, there really isn't

568
01:19:33,458 --> 01:19:35,166
anything. It's not going to spark a war.

569
01:19:35,791 --> 01:19:37,625
No one's going to be sailing off to like

570
01:19:37,625 --> 01:19:40,583
arrest the United States vessels that are

571
01:19:40,583 --> 01:19:41,625
mining in the high seas.

572
01:19:42,333 --> 01:19:44,208
What could happen is that other countries

573
01:19:44,208 --> 01:19:46,125
can decide, okay, well, if UNCLOS is no

574
01:19:46,125 --> 01:19:48,458
longer the law of the sea, if that is not

575
01:19:48,458 --> 01:19:50,041
holding the US back, then

576
01:19:50,041 --> 01:19:51,208
why should it hold us back?

577
01:19:51,458 --> 01:19:52,750
And countries like Russia and China can

578
01:19:52,750 --> 01:19:54,291
say, okay, well, we don't care about

579
01:19:54,291 --> 01:19:55,708
UNCLOS now either. We're pulling out of

580
01:19:55,708 --> 01:19:57,041
the treaty. And then it

581
01:19:57,041 --> 01:19:58,875
becomes a real free for all.

582
01:19:59,541 --> 01:20:00,750
Yeah. And then it comes in. It doesn't

583
01:20:00,750 --> 01:20:02,166
matter what protection or what agreements

584
01:20:02,166 --> 01:20:03,708
we do. It's people are just

585
01:20:03,708 --> 01:20:04,791
going to do whatever they want.

586
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:07,750
So it's not a good leadership position to

587
01:20:07,750 --> 01:20:08,875
take from a world perspective.

588
01:20:09,333 --> 01:20:10,750
Yeah. And that's why it's so dangerous to

589
01:20:10,750 --> 01:20:13,958
disrupt this very state and very well

590
01:20:13,958 --> 01:20:15,458
respected multilateral agreement.

591
01:20:16,541 --> 01:20:18,833
Yeah. Now, it's interesting. There's a

592
01:20:18,833 --> 01:20:21,833
lot of headache around deep sea mining

593
01:20:21,833 --> 01:20:23,375
anyway for any country to do.

594
01:20:23,375 --> 01:20:26,208
We've seen it before. Anybody who's done

595
01:20:26,208 --> 01:20:29,208
it has been shamed multiple times.

596
01:20:29,208 --> 01:20:30,875
Protests have happened and so forth.

597
01:20:31,416 --> 01:20:34,041
You have the US who's not signed on or

598
01:20:34,041 --> 01:20:36,125
not ratified the Law of the Seas. So

599
01:20:36,125 --> 01:20:36,916
there's a lot of

600
01:20:36,916 --> 01:20:38,125
probably headaches around that.

601
01:20:38,375 --> 01:20:38,958
We've seen a lot of people discuss what

602
01:20:38,958 --> 01:20:41,625
the problems could be internally. There's

603
01:20:41,625 --> 01:20:42,458
probably going to be a lot of

604
01:20:42,458 --> 01:20:44,125
environmental regulations that are going

605
01:20:44,125 --> 01:20:45,833
to be ignored or rolled back just to

606
01:20:45,833 --> 01:20:46,750
allow this to happen.

607
01:20:47,291 --> 01:20:49,166
But you also mentioned that it's

608
01:20:49,166 --> 01:20:52,291
something that can't happen in the next

609
01:20:52,291 --> 01:20:54,041
two years where they become profitable.

610
01:20:54,291 --> 01:20:56,250
They still don't have a way to refine it.

611
01:20:57,333 --> 01:21:00,291
They're just going to stockpile it. It's

612
01:21:00,291 --> 01:21:05,375
expensive. So should we be worried? Is

613
01:21:05,375 --> 01:21:08,500
this something to worry about from an

614
01:21:08,500 --> 01:21:09,666
ocean conservation perspective?

615
01:21:10,833 --> 01:21:12,541
From an ocean conservation perspective,

616
01:21:12,833 --> 01:21:15,083
absolutely. It is an industry we need to

617
01:21:15,083 --> 01:21:17,083
be following very closely. It is an

618
01:21:17,083 --> 01:21:18,875
industry we need to be fighting to make

619
01:21:18,875 --> 01:21:21,166
sure has the most stringent possible

620
01:21:21,166 --> 01:21:23,083
environmental rules that we can.

621
01:21:24,333 --> 01:21:27,500
The reality is one of the reasons we

622
01:21:27,500 --> 01:21:29,791
don't see a lot of deep sea mining in

623
01:21:29,791 --> 01:21:31,250
national waters is because it is a

624
01:21:31,250 --> 01:21:32,041
politically difficult

625
01:21:32,041 --> 01:21:33,583
position for a lot of countries.

626
01:21:33,833 --> 01:21:37,125
And so there is a difference in the way

627
01:21:37,125 --> 01:21:39,333
your citizens and your constituents think

628
01:21:39,333 --> 01:21:41,875
about what's happening in your waters

629
01:21:41,875 --> 01:21:43,958
versus what's happening in the high seas.

630
01:21:44,583 --> 01:21:45,958
And I think that's why there's been so

631
01:21:45,958 --> 01:21:48,333
much focus on the high seas as of late.

632
01:21:49,333 --> 01:21:52,833
The financial reality of deep sea mining,

633
01:21:53,208 --> 01:21:54,916
I'm, you know, we've talked about this

634
01:21:54,916 --> 01:21:57,416
before. I'm one of those who thinks that

635
01:21:57,416 --> 01:22:00,250
the financial viability is a bit

636
01:22:00,250 --> 01:22:02,291
optimistic coming from

637
01:22:02,291 --> 01:22:03,125
the mining companies.

638
01:22:03,791 --> 01:22:05,583
I'm not entirely convinced that it will

639
01:22:05,583 --> 01:22:06,875
ever be a particularly profitable

640
01:22:06,875 --> 01:22:10,666
industry. And I'm because of that, I'm a

641
01:22:10,666 --> 01:22:12,375
little bit more willing to say, okay,

642
01:22:12,375 --> 01:22:14,291
well, let's see what your first, you

643
01:22:14,291 --> 01:22:15,333
know, pilot studies look like.

644
01:22:15,375 --> 01:22:18,625
You know, let's, you know, I may be the

645
01:22:18,625 --> 01:22:20,333
fastest way to bring about the end of

646
01:22:20,333 --> 01:22:21,666
deep sea mining is to let them do those

647
01:22:21,666 --> 01:22:23,833
first pilot studies and really show that

648
01:22:23,833 --> 01:22:25,708
like the profitability and the viability

649
01:22:25,708 --> 01:22:27,416
of extracting resources from the deep

650
01:22:27,416 --> 01:22:31,250
ocean is not viable or not a financially

651
01:22:31,250 --> 01:22:32,875
productive endeavor.

652
01:22:33,458 --> 01:22:35,083
You know, I could be entirely wrong about

653
01:22:35,083 --> 01:22:37,708
that. I'm not an economist. You know, I

654
01:22:37,708 --> 01:22:39,541
look at my stock market portfolio and I'm

655
01:22:39,541 --> 01:22:40,833
like, oh, I don't I don't really know how

656
01:22:40,833 --> 01:22:41,541
to pick a company.

657
01:22:41,875 --> 01:22:43,333
That's definitely for sure.

658
01:22:44,333 --> 01:22:47,041
Well, the way I hear it is if you just if

659
01:22:47,041 --> 01:22:49,750
you if you tank the stock market and then

660
01:22:49,750 --> 01:22:51,416
you buy everything at that point and it

661
01:22:51,416 --> 01:22:53,125
goes up, you make billions of dollars.

662
01:22:53,125 --> 01:22:54,458
That's what I've heard. That's how you

663
01:22:54,458 --> 01:22:55,708
make money in the stock market these

664
01:22:55,708 --> 01:22:57,208
days. It sounds like anyway.

665
01:22:57,750 --> 01:22:59,291
I mean, I heard a bunch of people said I

666
01:22:59,291 --> 01:23:01,541
should go buy doggy. And so I went to the

667
01:23:01,541 --> 01:23:03,166
I went to the pound and now I've got like

668
01:23:03,166 --> 01:23:04,333
six puppies, but they

669
01:23:04,333 --> 01:23:05,291
just they cost money.

670
01:23:07,750 --> 01:23:08,458
You're always sinking

671
01:23:08,458 --> 01:23:10,125
money into those doggies. Yeah.

672
01:23:10,333 --> 01:23:14,583
But no, so I think, you know, the metals

673
01:23:14,583 --> 01:23:16,291
company is an interesting case because I

674
01:23:16,291 --> 01:23:20,500
don't think they've at this point, it

675
01:23:20,500 --> 01:23:21,791
really doesn't seem like they've done the

676
01:23:21,791 --> 01:23:23,875
work to develop the goodwill to get that

677
01:23:23,875 --> 01:23:25,833
social license to go on to the next.

678
01:23:25,833 --> 01:23:26,041
Right.

679
01:23:27,333 --> 01:23:29,791
And I think five months ago, I might have

680
01:23:29,791 --> 01:23:32,000
said something different. But blowing up

681
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:33,625
the international regime like this, I

682
01:23:33,625 --> 01:23:35,208
think has has sapped them up. They're

683
01:23:35,208 --> 01:23:37,541
goodwill and possible metals like their

684
01:23:37,541 --> 01:23:38,333
technology is interesting.

685
01:23:38,333 --> 01:23:40,083
I want to see how it works. I want to see

686
01:23:40,083 --> 01:23:44,125
it go. I want to see a pilot study. I

687
01:23:44,125 --> 01:23:45,458
want to actually like we're not going to

688
01:23:45,458 --> 01:23:46,791
understand really what the impacts of

689
01:23:46,791 --> 01:23:48,125
this technology are going to be until we

690
01:23:48,125 --> 01:23:50,166
see those first go small scale pilots.

691
01:23:50,666 --> 01:23:52,583
And, you know, I think impossible metals

692
01:23:52,583 --> 01:23:55,125
has has has done a little bit more on the

693
01:23:55,125 --> 01:23:56,833
social licensing side of thing. And like,

694
01:23:57,666 --> 01:24:00,166
I'd be you know, I'd be willing to see,

695
01:24:00,166 --> 01:24:02,375
you know, what that first small

696
01:24:02,375 --> 01:24:04,375
experimental pilot study looks like

697
01:24:04,375 --> 01:24:06,375
before I make any judgment calls about

698
01:24:06,375 --> 01:24:07,041
whether or not they

699
01:24:07,041 --> 01:24:07,333
should be permitted to mine.

700
01:24:07,333 --> 01:24:09,875
I'm not 100% convinced, but I'm not 100%

701
01:24:10,291 --> 01:24:13,916
weighted either. You know, if deep sea

702
01:24:13,916 --> 01:24:15,875
mining is an inevitability, I want the

703
01:24:15,875 --> 01:24:18,916
people that are doing the best with

704
01:24:18,916 --> 01:24:20,458
regard to environment, not necessarily

705
01:24:20,458 --> 01:24:22,250
perfect, but at least, you know, doing

706
01:24:22,250 --> 01:24:23,416
the best they can to be

707
01:24:23,416 --> 01:24:25,583
the ones that get to advance.

708
01:24:26,458 --> 01:24:28,666
So yeah, it's a tricky.

709
01:24:28,666 --> 01:24:30,291
But they got rejected last time, though,

710
01:24:30,291 --> 01:24:31,708
right? Like they got rejected from during

711
01:24:31,708 --> 01:24:33,291
the last administration. Do you know why

712
01:24:33,291 --> 01:24:34,083
they got rejected? Was

713
01:24:34,083 --> 01:24:34,333
that anything particular?

714
01:24:34,333 --> 01:24:38,166
My understanding is American Samoa, their

715
01:24:38,166 --> 01:24:41,000
local government was opposed. They have

716
01:24:41,000 --> 01:24:43,208
had they've also flipped parties. I think

717
01:24:43,208 --> 01:24:46,000
they have a new governor now. So that

718
01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:46,791
that could change

719
01:24:46,791 --> 01:24:47,750
things that could change.

720
01:24:49,041 --> 01:24:50,250
And, you know, perhaps their technology

721
01:24:50,250 --> 01:24:52,291
wasn't as far as along during their first

722
01:24:52,291 --> 01:24:54,583
application as it is now. And, you know,

723
01:24:54,750 --> 01:24:56,333
they there just was a big congressional

724
01:24:56,333 --> 01:24:58,458
hearing. And now there's more excitement

725
01:24:58,458 --> 01:24:59,333
about deep sea mining.

726
01:24:59,375 --> 01:25:03,875
So I think they're probably feeling

727
01:25:03,875 --> 01:25:05,250
pretty optimistic right now that they're

728
01:25:05,250 --> 01:25:07,041
going to get that permit approved. And,

729
01:25:07,041 --> 01:25:10,541
you know, in the hearing, the CEO of

730
01:25:10,541 --> 01:25:12,541
impossible was very much like we're just

731
01:25:12,541 --> 01:25:13,500
at the beginning here.

732
01:25:13,500 --> 01:25:14,958
We're still doing the environmental work.

733
01:25:15,583 --> 01:25:17,333
We're not going to go full bore

734
01:25:17,333 --> 01:25:18,875
commercial mining until we've done those

735
01:25:18,875 --> 01:25:22,708
studies. And so, you know, I feel at this

736
01:25:22,708 --> 01:25:24,333
juncture, I want to see those studies.

737
01:25:24,333 --> 01:25:26,916
Yeah, yeah, of course. Now it's just the

738
01:25:26,916 --> 01:25:28,958
science the hell out of it. Right. It's

739
01:25:28,958 --> 01:25:31,500
like, how do we how do we figure out and

740
01:25:31,500 --> 01:25:33,291
especially if it's in a pilot project in

741
01:25:33,291 --> 01:25:36,333
a smaller place, you know, and hopefully

742
01:25:36,333 --> 01:25:37,541
that guy hate to say it

743
01:25:37,541 --> 01:25:39,208
for the impossible company.

744
01:25:39,208 --> 01:25:40,708
But it's like, hopefully it's not viable

745
01:25:40,708 --> 01:25:42,208
and we don't have to worry about this.

746
01:25:42,208 --> 01:25:43,875
And it's all been for nothing. However, I

747
01:25:43,875 --> 01:25:44,875
mean, the other the other side of the

748
01:25:44,875 --> 01:25:45,916
coin is, you know, if it is

749
01:25:45,916 --> 01:25:47,333
viable, maybe they're technology.

750
01:25:47,333 --> 01:25:49,041
I mean, maybe all their technology lives

751
01:25:49,041 --> 01:25:51,500
up to the hype. Yeah, I'd love to be

752
01:25:51,500 --> 01:25:53,416
proven wrong in such a way that like

753
01:25:53,416 --> 01:25:56,291
their technology does live up to their

754
01:25:56,291 --> 01:25:58,916
claims and like we have that like shiny

755
01:25:58,916 --> 01:26:01,166
golden optimistic future of giant robots

756
01:26:01,166 --> 01:26:03,666
because who doesn't love a giant robot.

757
01:26:03,666 --> 01:26:04,458
I love a giant robot.

758
01:26:06,250 --> 01:26:07,291
Well, I hear they're making a Voltron

759
01:26:07,291 --> 01:26:08,666
movie. So maybe that's that'll be the

760
01:26:08,666 --> 01:26:10,833
closest we get to a giant robot soon. But

761
01:26:10,833 --> 01:26:13,000
you never know. You never know what might

762
01:26:13,000 --> 01:26:15,166
happen. So like for people listening to

763
01:26:15,166 --> 01:26:17,250
this, they've they've heard us talk about

764
01:26:17,250 --> 01:26:18,958
deep sea mining a lot. Right.

765
01:26:19,500 --> 01:26:21,333
Now we have this executive order. Some

766
01:26:21,333 --> 01:26:23,458
people are not going to be too happy

767
01:26:23,458 --> 01:26:25,791
about about this. You know, people are

768
01:26:25,791 --> 01:26:27,000
going to be concerned, as you

769
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:28,083
mentioned, as they should be.

770
01:26:28,583 --> 01:26:31,291
We know this administration is not big on

771
01:26:31,291 --> 01:26:34,583
environmental policy. We know that

772
01:26:34,583 --> 01:26:36,833
certain mining companies seems a little

773
01:26:36,833 --> 01:26:38,875
desperate or the metals company.

774
01:26:38,875 --> 01:26:40,291
Sorry, they seem a little desperate. As

775
01:26:40,291 --> 01:26:41,333
you mentioned, they might be running out

776
01:26:41,333 --> 01:26:43,458
of money. And so they have this either

777
01:26:43,458 --> 01:26:46,666
now or never. The impossible company like

778
01:26:46,666 --> 01:26:49,000
metal company like they they seem to have

779
01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:51,333
the environment in mind.

780
01:26:51,375 --> 01:26:53,750
And so we're that's that's a good thing

781
01:26:53,750 --> 01:26:56,083
in terms of having a company that wants

782
01:26:56,083 --> 01:26:57,583
to do this, but also wants to do it the

783
01:26:57,583 --> 01:26:59,041
right way and think of

784
01:26:59,041 --> 01:27:00,458
like any kind of implications.

785
01:27:01,250 --> 01:27:02,375
But when it comes down to it, money money

786
01:27:02,375 --> 01:27:06,625
rules in a capitalistic society. And what

787
01:27:06,625 --> 01:27:11,958
can what can what can people do? You

788
01:27:11,958 --> 01:27:13,250
know, they're listening to this and like

789
01:27:13,250 --> 01:27:16,291
how like how should they feel and and and

790
01:27:16,291 --> 01:27:18,833
and and what what can they do to to help

791
01:27:18,833 --> 01:27:19,666
if they don't want to see

792
01:27:19,666 --> 01:27:20,333
to see mining happen in US.

793
01:27:20,333 --> 01:27:22,833
What is happening in US waters or in in

794
01:27:22,833 --> 01:27:24,958
the high seas? If you if you don't want

795
01:27:24,958 --> 01:27:28,166
to see deep sea mining happen, this is

796
01:27:28,166 --> 01:27:29,291
not the moment to panic.

797
01:27:30,375 --> 01:27:32,500
You know, the metals company is making a

798
01:27:32,500 --> 01:27:33,583
move that I think is based out of

799
01:27:33,583 --> 01:27:34,791
desperation. That's a good

800
01:27:34,791 --> 01:27:36,083
sign if you're opposed to deep.

801
01:27:36,250 --> 01:27:41,791
You know, I don't I don't I'm not

802
01:27:41,791 --> 01:27:43,500
particularly optimistic about any company

803
01:27:43,500 --> 01:27:45,000
that's that's that's hinging its

804
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:46,000
financial future on

805
01:27:46,000 --> 01:27:46,833
the Trump administration.

806
01:27:47,375 --> 01:27:49,708
Generally speaking, Trump comes out of

807
01:27:49,708 --> 01:27:51,791
everything perfectly fine. And all of the

808
01:27:51,791 --> 01:27:53,541
people that partner with them either end

809
01:27:53,541 --> 01:27:55,000
up bankrupt or in jail. So

810
01:27:55,000 --> 01:27:56,500
I think that's a risky move.

811
01:27:56,875 --> 01:27:59,625
It's a very risky move. And, you know, if

812
01:27:59,625 --> 01:28:00,750
you're if you're a private company, it's

813
01:28:00,750 --> 01:28:01,791
probably the only move you have. You got

814
01:28:01,791 --> 01:28:03,166
to work with the administration that

815
01:28:03,166 --> 01:28:04,958
you've you've got. You can't you can't

816
01:28:04,958 --> 01:28:05,958
wait it out for four years.

817
01:28:06,625 --> 01:28:09,583
But, you know, calling your

818
01:28:09,583 --> 01:28:11,333
representatives, Congress just had a

819
01:28:11,333 --> 01:28:12,458
hearing on it. There will almost

820
01:28:12,458 --> 01:28:14,791
certainly be some form of a vote. It

821
01:28:14,791 --> 01:28:16,625
might be a pro form of vote. It might not

822
01:28:16,625 --> 01:28:17,958
be. There may not ever be a

823
01:28:17,958 --> 01:28:19,333
bill about deep sea mining.

824
01:28:19,333 --> 01:28:20,541
But you should let your Congressperson

825
01:28:20,541 --> 01:28:23,458
know that that's what matters to you. If

826
01:28:23,458 --> 01:28:25,500
you're not in the US, reach out to your

827
01:28:25,500 --> 01:28:28,125
representatives. However, you are

828
01:28:28,125 --> 01:28:30,750
represented with your own government. Let

829
01:28:30,750 --> 01:28:33,291
them know where you stand on the US

830
01:28:33,291 --> 01:28:34,333
flaunting the international order.

831
01:28:35,791 --> 01:28:39,583
And, you know, really at this moment, you

832
01:28:39,583 --> 01:28:41,916
know, supporting the NGOs that are

833
01:28:41,916 --> 01:28:44,791
bringing up the legal cases against them,

834
01:28:45,125 --> 01:28:46,500
supporting the NGOs that are that are

835
01:28:46,500 --> 01:28:48,208
doing protest work, if that's what you

836
01:28:48,208 --> 01:28:50,291
want, is really

837
01:28:50,291 --> 01:28:51,375
probably the best way to go.

838
01:28:51,375 --> 01:28:52,791
You know, it's a tricky industry because

839
01:28:52,791 --> 01:28:55,458
until now it's all been purely

840
01:28:55,458 --> 01:28:57,000
international, which means it's much

841
01:28:57,000 --> 01:28:58,625
harder for stakeholders to be directly

842
01:28:58,625 --> 01:29:02,416
involved. But on the other hand, letting

843
01:29:02,416 --> 01:29:03,125
your elected

844
01:29:03,125 --> 01:29:03,333
representatives know how you feel.

845
01:29:03,375 --> 01:29:06,666
It's always, you know, the most important

846
01:29:06,666 --> 01:29:08,541
thing you can do. Write letters to the

847
01:29:08,541 --> 01:29:10,916
editor. Get some letters in your local

848
01:29:10,916 --> 01:29:12,333
papers. I'm going to I'm writing a letter

849
01:29:12,333 --> 01:29:14,416
from my local paper because I'm because

850
01:29:14,416 --> 01:29:17,833
I'm me and like, you know, my county has

851
01:29:17,833 --> 01:29:20,125
one of the, you know, not to toot my own

852
01:29:20,125 --> 01:29:21,583
horn, but there's not that many experts

853
01:29:21,583 --> 01:29:22,333
on deep sea mining and I'm one of them.

854
01:29:23,333 --> 01:29:25,791
So I could at least lean on the local

855
01:29:25,791 --> 01:29:28,458
angle for that and get our local paper.

856
01:29:29,833 --> 01:29:31,708
You know, small things like that matter.

857
01:29:32,291 --> 01:29:33,833
Keep making sure you know, you're not

858
01:29:33,833 --> 01:29:36,250
getting surprised by things keeping track

859
01:29:36,250 --> 01:29:37,416
of the industry as it develops.

860
01:29:37,875 --> 01:29:39,541
If you're on blue sky, we have a deep sea

861
01:29:39,541 --> 01:29:42,000
mining feed you can subscribe to that

862
01:29:42,000 --> 01:29:44,208
tracks all the deep sea mining news so

863
01:29:44,208 --> 01:29:45,750
you can you can stay abreast of

864
01:29:45,750 --> 01:29:46,291
everything happening.

865
01:29:47,333 --> 01:29:50,291
And you know, at this moment at this

866
01:29:50,291 --> 01:29:52,916
juncture, there's not much you can do

867
01:29:52,916 --> 01:29:56,083
once the permits are being reviewed,

868
01:29:56,333 --> 01:29:59,333
there will be a public comment period. So

869
01:29:59,333 --> 01:30:01,875
US citizens especially should participate

870
01:30:01,875 --> 01:30:03,750
in that public comment period, period,

871
01:30:03,750 --> 01:30:05,416
whether you're opposed or in favor.

872
01:30:05,416 --> 01:30:05,625
Right.

873
01:30:06,375 --> 01:30:07,416
You should participate in the public

874
01:30:07,416 --> 01:30:12,041
comment period. And yeah, it's, it's,

875
01:30:12,041 --> 01:30:13,833
it's a wild moment in time. I don't

876
01:30:13,833 --> 01:30:16,333
really have a great handle on where

877
01:30:16,333 --> 01:30:18,541
things are going next. You know, it's

878
01:30:18,541 --> 01:30:19,583
possible six months from now,

879
01:30:19,583 --> 01:30:20,583
everything's going to blow up in

880
01:30:20,583 --> 01:30:21,916
everyone's face and we're not gonna,

881
01:30:22,291 --> 01:30:24,333
there will be, you know, another deep sea

882
01:30:24,333 --> 01:30:25,958
mining company will declare bankruptcy,

883
01:30:25,958 --> 01:30:27,916
which, by the way, look Marine, which

884
01:30:27,916 --> 01:30:29,708
bought out the Lockheed mining leases

885
01:30:29,708 --> 01:30:31,333
declared bankruptcy last month.

886
01:30:31,375 --> 01:30:33,541
So, okay, that's another deep sea mining

887
01:30:33,541 --> 01:30:35,958
company that has proven non viable. So

888
01:30:35,958 --> 01:30:38,916
right, right. It's a very dynamic moment

889
01:30:38,916 --> 01:30:40,833
in the history of the industry. And it'll

890
01:30:40,833 --> 01:30:42,333
be fascinating to follow.

891
01:30:42,333 --> 01:30:45,041
And it will be and we'll follow it and

892
01:30:45,041 --> 01:30:47,625
with with your help and and we'll we'll

893
01:30:47,625 --> 01:30:49,875
put that link to that blue sky feed to in

894
01:30:49,875 --> 01:30:51,208
the show notes that people can get access

895
01:30:51,208 --> 01:30:53,083
to it, as well as Southern fried science

896
01:30:53,083 --> 01:30:55,458
because you keep putting you and your

897
01:30:55,458 --> 01:30:57,375
fellow writers David Schiffman and Angela

898
01:30:57,375 --> 01:30:59,291
Gomez and others who keep putting out

899
01:30:59,291 --> 01:31:02,291
these great articles on not only science

900
01:31:02,291 --> 01:31:04,375
communication, Brett Favaro as well, but

901
01:31:04,375 --> 01:31:06,958
also all in the what's happening with

902
01:31:06,958 --> 01:31:08,791
policy and what we should be looking at

903
01:31:08,791 --> 01:31:10,333
and keeping everybody informed on these specifics that don't always

904
01:31:10,750 --> 01:31:14,916
get into the mainstream media and not and

905
01:31:14,916 --> 01:31:16,916
definitely not in that detail. So I'll

906
01:31:16,916 --> 01:31:18,458
link to Southern Fried Science as well.

907
01:31:19,708 --> 01:31:22,208
Yeah, I think it's interesting. I was

908
01:31:22,208 --> 01:31:25,208
surprised that the U.S. was entertaining

909
01:31:25,208 --> 01:31:28,083
a Canadian company to doing some of the

910
01:31:28,083 --> 01:31:28,333
work because I put up my last post because it is.

911
01:31:28,375 --> 01:31:34,458
They created a U.S. subsidy just for

912
01:31:34,458 --> 01:31:36,416
this. But like, yeah, everyone sees

913
01:31:36,416 --> 01:31:37,916
through that. It's a Canadian company.

914
01:31:37,916 --> 01:31:39,416
It's a Canadian company. I put up the

915
01:31:39,416 --> 01:31:41,333
post last time and one of the comments

916
01:31:41,333 --> 01:31:43,500
like get out of there. So I thought it

917
01:31:43,500 --> 01:31:44,833
was I thought it was interesting.

918
01:31:44,916 --> 01:31:46,708
It might make him even more unpopular if

919
01:31:46,708 --> 01:31:49,458
he loves a Canadian company to to mine in

920
01:31:49,458 --> 01:31:51,916
U.S. water. So yeah, it'll definitely be

921
01:31:51,916 --> 01:31:53,791
interesting to follow. So, Andrew, we

922
01:31:53,791 --> 01:31:55,166
always appreciate you coming on and

923
01:31:55,166 --> 01:31:55,333
informing us and keeping us abreast of what we're doing.

924
01:31:55,333 --> 01:32:02,250
And it's always it's always helpful. And

925
01:32:02,250 --> 01:32:03,416
then like the biggest thing is just

926
01:32:03,416 --> 01:32:05,041
educate, you know, you get your education

927
01:32:05,041 --> 01:32:07,541
up, get your information in a row, making

928
01:32:07,541 --> 01:32:09,583
sure we get the right information, tuning

929
01:32:09,583 --> 01:32:11,250
into this podcast or going to Southern

930
01:32:11,250 --> 01:32:12,333
Fried Science or both.

931
01:32:12,375 --> 01:32:14,916
Definitely both and and saying, hey,

932
01:32:14,916 --> 01:32:17,083
look, I'm going to keep aware of what to

933
01:32:17,083 --> 01:32:19,791
do. So you have some great talking points

934
01:32:19,791 --> 01:32:21,000
in those articles. So I think people

935
01:32:21,000 --> 01:32:23,375
should should definitely check them out.

936
01:32:23,375 --> 01:32:25,416
So thanks a lot. I do appreciate you

937
01:32:25,416 --> 01:32:29,041
doing this such last minute. And and I

938
01:32:29,041 --> 01:32:30,708
just I can't wait to have you back on to

939
01:32:30,708 --> 01:32:32,500
talk more, more deep sea mining and other

940
01:32:32,500 --> 01:32:33,666
projects that you have on.

941
01:32:33,916 --> 01:32:34,333
I have a feeling I'll be back.

942
01:32:34,333 --> 01:32:39,083
It's awesome. I'm sure you will. It'll

943
01:32:39,083 --> 01:32:40,291
probably be the next couple of weeks. Who

944
01:32:40,291 --> 01:32:42,875
knows? But it'll be fun. Thanks a lot. I

945
01:32:42,875 --> 01:32:44,000
really appreciate it. You're very

946
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:45,625
welcome. Thanks for having me on. Thank

947
01:32:45,625 --> 01:32:47,041
you, Andrew, for joining us on today's

948
01:32:47,041 --> 01:32:48,291
episode of the how to protect the ocean

949
01:32:48,291 --> 01:32:49,750
podcast. It was great to talk to you

950
01:32:49,750 --> 01:32:51,125
again. Obviously, it's always great to

951
01:32:51,125 --> 01:32:52,750
have Andrew on the podcast. He's one of

952
01:32:52,750 --> 01:32:54,791
our regulars, maybe even one of the

953
01:32:54,791 --> 01:32:56,333
people who've been on the podcast the

954
01:32:56,333 --> 01:32:58,250
most. I don't know. I think it's true,

955
01:32:58,250 --> 01:33:00,166
but we'll have to go and look at that.

956
01:33:00,166 --> 01:33:01,791
But it's something that we always

957
01:33:01,791 --> 01:33:03,333
appreciate, Andrew. You appreciate your time. We appreciate your insights.

958
01:33:04,375 --> 01:33:06,791
I enjoyed like a policy guru when it

959
01:33:06,791 --> 01:33:07,541
comes to this kind of stuff, especially

960
01:33:07,541 --> 01:33:09,291
when it comes to the deep sea. And so it

961
01:33:09,291 --> 01:33:10,791
was really nice to be able to have him to

962
01:33:10,791 --> 01:33:13,041
explain all the different intricacies of

963
01:33:13,041 --> 01:33:15,583
the policies that would come into play

964
01:33:15,583 --> 01:33:17,333
and how they would be able to either get

965
01:33:17,333 --> 01:33:19,708
around it or even just the fact of

966
01:33:19,708 --> 01:33:21,291
putting things into production, like how

967
01:33:21,291 --> 01:33:22,750
realistic is it to put things into

968
01:33:22,750 --> 01:33:24,875
production within the span of this next

969
01:33:24,875 --> 01:33:26,583
term that Donald Trump is in right where

970
01:33:26,583 --> 01:33:27,833
he's signing. He wants to see this

971
01:33:27,833 --> 01:33:29,750
happen. It's going to be interesting to

972
01:33:29,750 --> 01:33:32,291
see what happens. But it's also a little

973
01:33:32,291 --> 01:33:33,333
scary seeing how things can do.

974
01:33:34,375 --> 01:33:35,958
And I'm sure it's sort of just not work

975
01:33:35,958 --> 01:33:38,125
out or just slide down that slippery

976
01:33:38,125 --> 01:33:40,125
slope as easy as it does. And that's

977
01:33:40,125 --> 01:33:41,791
what's scary to me. I'm sure it's what's

978
01:33:41,791 --> 01:33:43,541
scary to Andrew and a lot of other people

979
01:33:43,541 --> 01:33:45,291
around the world when it comes to deep

980
01:33:45,291 --> 01:33:46,958
sea mining. So we are going to see what

981
01:33:46,958 --> 01:33:48,500
happens. But I would love to hear your

982
01:33:48,500 --> 01:33:50,125
comments on this. I'm going to put links

983
01:33:50,125 --> 01:33:51,875
to what Andrew mentioned, the blue sky

984
01:33:51,875 --> 01:33:54,041
feed as well as Southern fried science.

985
01:33:54,416 --> 01:33:55,583
But also, I want to hear what you think

986
01:33:55,583 --> 01:33:57,291
about this whole deep sea mining. Do you

987
01:33:57,291 --> 01:33:58,666
think this is good for the U.S.? Do you

988
01:33:58,666 --> 01:34:00,333
think it's not? No judgment here. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Put a comment down below if you're watching this on YouTube or if you're listening to this. I'm going to be talking to you soon.

989
01:34:18,416 --> 01:34:24,333
I'm Andrew and I'm your host, Andrew. I'm

990
01:34:24,333 --> 01:34:25,791
your host, Andrew. And have a great day.

991
01:34:26,041 --> 01:34:26,583
I'll talk to you next

992
01:34:26,583 --> 01:34:27,708
time. And have a conservation.