Managing Fishing Vessels: Uncovering the Hidden Ownership of Industrial Fleets

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You see a seafood label with a country of

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origin, but you don't really know where

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that fish came from.

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Behind every fishing vessel is a story

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and sometimes a shell company.

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Oceana uncovered a hidden world where

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thousands of industrial

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fishing ships fly one flag,

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but answer to another. Flags of

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convenience, foreign

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ownership, and zero transparency have

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become business as usual on the high

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seas. This isn't just

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paperwork, it's a system that enables

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illegal fishing and drains wealth from

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coastal communities. When 62% of vessels

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lack ownership info,

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who is responsible for what happens at

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sea? Some nations like

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Panama and Belize host fleets,

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they don't even control, but there's a

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movement growing to demand transparency,

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accountability, and fairness in global

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fisheries. In today's

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episode, we uncover the truth behind

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the flag and what needs to change because

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protecting the ocean starts with knowing

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who's really behind the wheel. We're

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going to discuss this and more on this

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episode of the How to

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Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome back to another

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exciting episode of the How

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to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lew, and this is

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the podcast where you find out what's

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happening with the ocean,

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how you can speak up for the ocean and

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what you can do to live for a better

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ocean by taking action.

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On today's episode, I am very delighted

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to welcome Oceana's Dr. Daniel Scarritt.

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He's part of their research team for

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their global fisheries unit. This is

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going to be one you're going to want to

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watch. This is going to be one you're

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going to want to listen to if you watch

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this on YouTube or listening to this on

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your favorite podcast app. We're going to

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be talking about this report that came

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out in May of 2025 of this year called

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Beyond the Flag State Paradigm. It's

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Beyond the Flag State Paradigm,

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reconstructing the world's large scale

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fishing fleet through

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corporate ownership analysis. What we're

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going to be talking about is all the

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things that corporations and that the

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fishing fleet get away with. It's going

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to be really interesting. Daniel breaks

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it down for us. He talks about what comes

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out of this report, talks about the

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recommendations. You know, we get into it

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a little bit in terms of the weeds of

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like what information is missing.

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Sometimes just fishing vessel length is

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missing and the surprising things of what

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people can get away with when they're at

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sea. I think this is an interesting

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episode for people need to listen to.

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Listen and watch very carefully and

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really understand how complex fisheries

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is. It's about how we can detangle the

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complexity of global ocean fisheries.

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This is what we're going to be talking

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about today's episode. I can't wait for

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you to listen. But before you do, if you

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want to learn more about how to protect

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the ocean and be guided to do so, I want

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that, come back and listening to this

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episode. It's going to be really

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interesting. Here's the interview with

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Dr. Dana scare it talking about the new

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report from Oceana beyond

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the flag state paradigm.

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Reconstructing the world's largest scale

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fishing fleet through corporate ownership

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analysis. We're going to get into it.

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It's going to be a lot of fun. Enjoy the

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interview and I'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Dan. Welcome to the how to protect

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the ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk

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about who owns the fishing vessels?

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Absolutely. Yeah, it's there. Wonderful.

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I'm excited because this is a topic that

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is near and dear to my heart. When I

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first started like when I was like a

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student, I first started to learn about

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fisheries just when I was a student. I started to learn about fisheries.

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Just worldwide. I realize how complex it

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is and it's not just something like you

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have a boat. It's registered to such and

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such country under such and such

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company's name and it's run by a certain

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captain and blah, blah, blah. And they go

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out and they get this type of fish. They

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come back and it's all locked. That's

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what I think logically should happen.

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Unfortunately, it doesn't work out

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completely that way and it can get quite

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complex, which makes monitoring fisheries

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even more difficult and you work for

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Oceana. Oceana came out with a report back in the day.

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It's a long title. We're going to break it all down for you. And then we might go

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a little beyond not only beyond the flag,

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but get into the research because Dan,

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you are a researcher. So before we get

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into all of the report, everything, let's

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find out more about you, Dan. Why don't you let us know who you are and what you do. Yeah, cool. I'm Daniel Scarrett. I'm a

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senior manager of international fisheries

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Oceana and as you implied, I'm not a

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campaigner. I'm a researcher and I work

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in Oceana's global science and strategy

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team. So we we support campaign and we

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support campaign. And I think we're going

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to be able to do that.

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I'm a research manager of international

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fisheries Oceana and as you implied, I'm

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not a campaigner. I'm a researcher and I

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work in Oceana's global science and

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strategy team. So we we support

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campaigners throughout all our Oceana

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offices and also do kind of some novel

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research like this

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report you talked about.

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And most of the work I do is on

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international fisheries, particularly

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distant water fishing fleets. These are

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the vessels that fish either in the high

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seas or away from their home port and in

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in the waters of other countries.

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And, you know, by nature, they're quite

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difficult, as you said, to to manage and

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our work is, you know, we try to reveal

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some of the behaviors and the issues that

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are related to that

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that kind of fishing fleet.

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And when you know you're at this point in

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your career now doing this type of work,

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how did this all begin? Did you expect

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when you first started out, you know,

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learning about marine science and marine

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biology? Did you expect

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to be where you are today?

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No.

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My background was in was in fisheries

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ecology, you know, and as you said about

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complexity, right? Like, you know, the

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ecosystem that all these fishing fleets

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rely on and are

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extracting an insanely complex.

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And now a lot of the time, you know, it's

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more about kind of politics and corporate

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power as we'll get onto. But no, I didn't

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I didn't expect this.

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But I'm happy that I've kind of followed

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that thread to the place I am now. Yeah.

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Well, when you first like when I first

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started out, you know, I was always like

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I'm going to it's all about the animals.

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It's all about, you know, food webs and

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animal biology and conservation. So I

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want to protect, you know, fish and

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corals and seagrasses and mangroves and

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all these different types of wonderful

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habitats that, you know, I learned as I

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grew up and I saw in these documentaries

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and and I quickly realized probably about

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after like during my master's degree, I

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quickly realized that

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if we want to manage.

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And of course, I've confirmed this with a

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number of other researchers and

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colleagues that if we want to manage, you

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know, fisheries, if we want to manage the

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ocean properly, we

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have to manage the people.

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And and Dr. Ed Heinz was on is the one

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who really kept that. He told me that one

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time and I was like, that is probably

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into the mantra of conservation. At what

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point did you realize

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first, do you agree with that?

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And also like in what if you do, at what

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point did you realize that that was

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really what we we needed to focus on?

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Yeah, no, I mean, I do agree with that. I

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think, you know, having said that, I

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think without my kind of fisheries

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background, that fisheries science

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background, I wouldn't be able to do what

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I do as well. I don't think I think

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understanding that kind of

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the biological aspect of it.

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Right. That that that impacts the

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societal, you know, the way these fishing

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fleets behave, right? They follow

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currents and they follow the fish.

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So I think that there's a fundamental

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necessity, as you said, to kind of

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understand the ecology

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and the biology beneath it.

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But I think I first realized about, as

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you say, that fisheries management is

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probably as much about

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managing people as it is about fish.

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When I first started working with fishes

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and directly going on fishing boats and,

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you know, kind of realizing, you know,

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every day they're out there making these

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kind of decisions exactly where to fish,

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you know, how to fish and different parts

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of the fishing fleet and fishing vessels

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within that are

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behaving differently, right?

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Like they don't all have, they're not

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going out on this kind of nine to five

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logging in fishing in a particular area

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coming home. Like, you know, there's this

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kind of behavioral strategies between the

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different individuals and kind of

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realizing that that human aspect of

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fisheries and the individuality of those

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people, just as you have in fish, I

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guess, you know, really kind of triggered

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that for me of realizing like the people

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are as important as the fish.

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But ultimately, you know, it starts by

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trying to conserve the fish without the

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fish. There isn't the jobs.

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So, you know, you have to conserve the

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fish to have the jobs that rely on them.

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Yeah, it's such a dependable

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relationship, you know, when you really

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think about having that understanding.

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Because like when I first got into it, I

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was all about stock assessments and I'm

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like, this is where the

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bulk of the data lies.

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And it's a very

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important part of the data.

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And you have worked over before we press

268
01:09:25,083 --> 01:09:26,000
record, you're telling me

269
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:27,416
you've worked in Canada.

270
01:09:27,416 --> 01:09:28,333
So, you know, a little bit of the history

271
01:09:28,333 --> 01:09:30,500
of stock assessments, you know, and in

272
01:09:30,500 --> 01:09:32,208
the role that plays in really

273
01:09:32,208 --> 01:09:35,250
understanding the dynamics of how

274
01:09:35,250 --> 01:09:38,166
fisheries are doing and assessing how

275
01:09:38,166 --> 01:09:40,875
fisheries are doing and how sometimes

276
01:09:40,875 --> 01:09:42,958
politicians don't listen to the stock

277
01:09:42,958 --> 01:09:45,125
assessment biologists and to and you

278
01:09:45,125 --> 01:09:47,666
know, and it and it has, you know,

279
01:09:47,666 --> 01:09:49,000
consequences to that.

280
01:09:49,041 --> 01:09:50,541
You know, we're looking at the cod

281
01:09:50,541 --> 01:09:53,041
fishery in the early 90s and so forth in

282
01:09:53,041 --> 01:09:54,750
the recovery from that. And even to this

283
01:09:54,750 --> 01:09:56,375
day, it seems like there, you know,

284
01:09:56,625 --> 01:09:57,375
politicians are still not

285
01:09:57,375 --> 01:09:58,583
listening to the science.

286
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:02,666
And I would say this works all in between

287
01:10:02,666 --> 01:10:04,458
all three of those from the scientists,

288
01:10:04,833 --> 01:10:06,250
the government and the fishers.

289
01:10:06,250 --> 01:10:08,166
You know, one of my favorite books I

290
01:10:08,166 --> 01:10:09,833
would recommend for anyone who's in

291
01:10:09,833 --> 01:10:11,833
fishery sciences, Fishing for Truth,

292
01:10:11,833 --> 01:10:13,875
right, which is all about the cod

293
01:10:13,875 --> 01:10:16,375
collapse on the on the in eastern Canada.

294
01:10:17,041 --> 01:10:19,208
That talks about how, you know,

295
01:10:19,500 --> 01:10:20,791
scientists as well weren't listening to

296
01:10:20,791 --> 01:10:21,875
fishers who weren't listening.

297
01:10:22,083 --> 01:10:23,166
You know, there was there was a

298
01:10:23,166 --> 01:10:25,666
miscommunication and the end result was

299
01:10:25,666 --> 01:10:26,666
this collapse of one of

300
01:10:26,666 --> 01:10:27,708
the biggest fisheries ever.

301
01:10:28,041 --> 01:10:30,125
I think. Yeah. Yeah. And still is, you

302
01:10:30,125 --> 01:10:32,208
know, many parts isn't recovered.

303
01:10:32,208 --> 01:10:34,583
So, you know, I would recommend that book

304
01:10:34,583 --> 01:10:37,375
to understand the importance of people in

305
01:10:37,375 --> 01:10:39,583
the fisheries and sadly, you know, the

306
01:10:39,583 --> 01:10:41,875
not only did the people lose out, but,

307
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:42,583
you know, in this case,

308
01:10:42,875 --> 01:10:43,833
the fish stock as well.

309
01:10:44,375 --> 01:10:44,708
Absolutely.

310
01:11:13,041 --> 01:11:13,250
So, you know, I think that's a really interesting question.

311
01:11:13,250 --> 01:11:13,541
I mean, I think the scientists, the

312
01:11:13,541 --> 01:11:15,500
scientists, just the people in general

313
01:11:15,500 --> 01:11:17,416
have has improved in terms of

314
01:11:17,416 --> 01:11:19,875
communication or do you think it's still

315
01:11:19,875 --> 01:11:21,750
similar as it was in

316
01:11:21,750 --> 01:11:23,666
the early 90s or even 80s?

317
01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:26,333
I don't I don't think it's quite the

318
01:11:26,333 --> 01:11:28,166
same. You know, I'd love

319
01:11:28,166 --> 01:11:30,083
to be really positive here.

320
01:11:30,291 --> 01:11:31,625
But it's not.

321
01:11:31,625 --> 01:11:32,000
It's what it's all about.

322
01:11:32,041 --> 01:11:34,458
But, you know, sadly, there's many fish

323
01:11:34,458 --> 01:11:36,291
stocks, as you know, in Canada, as there

324
01:11:36,291 --> 01:11:38,916
are here in the UK and in our waters that

325
01:11:38,916 --> 01:11:40,083
are still overfished, right?

326
01:11:40,083 --> 01:11:41,625
They're still actively being overfished

327
01:11:41,625 --> 01:11:42,750
as well and not just

328
01:11:42,750 --> 01:11:43,708
in an overfished state.

329
01:11:43,958 --> 01:11:45,333
So I wouldn't say that

330
01:11:45,333 --> 01:11:47,083
we've kind of we've made it.

331
01:11:47,458 --> 01:11:48,750
But I do think there's a lot more

332
01:11:48,750 --> 01:11:49,958
understanding of that

333
01:11:49,958 --> 01:11:50,958
need for communication.

334
01:11:51,416 --> 01:11:55,000
Like there is a lot more importance put

335
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:57,291
on the need for kind of consultation for

336
01:11:57,291 --> 01:11:58,750
for having those voices.

337
01:11:59,041 --> 01:12:01,041
I think the issue might be how do you

338
01:12:01,041 --> 01:12:03,208
then you know, those conversations may be

339
01:12:03,208 --> 01:12:04,416
happening, maybe not

340
01:12:04,416 --> 01:12:05,625
to a sufficient extent.

341
01:12:06,125 --> 01:12:08,291
I think the issue is still how do we how

342
01:12:08,291 --> 01:12:10,458
do we really implement that into our

343
01:12:10,458 --> 01:12:11,916
stock assessments, how we set

344
01:12:11,916 --> 01:12:14,125
catches and things like that.

345
01:12:14,583 --> 01:12:15,916
I know I know in Canada at the moment,

346
01:12:15,916 --> 01:12:18,125
you know, there's a big kind of

347
01:12:18,125 --> 01:12:20,000
discussion as well about how to bring an

348
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:22,000
industry and First Nation, you know,

349
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:23,791
these these different ways of thinking

350
01:12:23,791 --> 01:12:26,000
about how we should manage fish stocks.

351
01:12:26,041 --> 01:12:28,500
And I think a really good start is having

352
01:12:28,500 --> 01:12:29,458
those conversations,

353
01:12:29,458 --> 01:12:30,666
knowing it needs to be done.

354
01:12:31,375 --> 01:12:34,208
You know, I'm I'm sure there are great

355
01:12:34,208 --> 01:12:36,000
examples where it's happening and we

356
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:37,541
could see and there are obviously

357
01:12:37,541 --> 01:12:38,541
examples where it

358
01:12:38,541 --> 01:12:39,500
absolutely isn't happening.

359
01:12:39,708 --> 01:12:42,000
So I think we I think we are progressing.

360
01:12:42,666 --> 01:12:44,500
But obviously, you know, that kind of

361
01:12:44,500 --> 01:12:47,041
golden, you know, standard of fishery

362
01:12:47,041 --> 01:12:50,208
science is still not not is, you know, is

363
01:12:50,208 --> 01:12:51,500
still elusive across every

364
01:12:51,500 --> 01:12:53,000
fishery that that we look at.

365
01:12:53,041 --> 01:12:55,416
Yeah, definitely something that needs to

366
01:12:55,416 --> 01:12:56,583
be improved upon. And I think we'll

367
01:12:56,583 --> 01:12:58,333
always need to be improved upon. There's

368
01:12:58,333 --> 01:13:00,791
there's a lot of stuff going on in the

369
01:13:00,791 --> 01:13:03,333
dynamics between almost the different

370
01:13:03,333 --> 01:13:06,083
silos of those aspects that we discussed,

371
01:13:06,375 --> 01:13:07,875
you know, the science, the politicians

372
01:13:07,875 --> 01:13:10,125
and and, you know,

373
01:13:10,125 --> 01:13:11,000
fishers, indigenous fishers.

374
01:13:11,041 --> 01:13:13,583
You know, there are definitely some

375
01:13:13,583 --> 01:13:16,333
conflicts in Canada and worldwide, you

376
01:13:16,333 --> 01:13:18,125
know, that we could highlight here for

377
01:13:18,125 --> 01:13:19,666
days, you know, it's that's probably an

378
01:13:19,666 --> 01:13:21,750
entire separate podcast, not even

379
01:13:21,750 --> 01:13:24,541
episode, but just podcast itself on on

380
01:13:24,541 --> 01:13:28,041
the the evolution of of that, that type

381
01:13:28,041 --> 01:13:30,250
of of conflict as well as hopefully

382
01:13:30,250 --> 01:13:31,291
resolution in the

383
01:13:31,291 --> 01:13:33,000
future and more resolutions.

384
01:13:33,041 --> 01:13:34,208
There are examples, there are some great

385
01:13:34,208 --> 01:13:35,541
examples, there are some awful examples

386
01:13:35,541 --> 01:13:38,875
as well. But we're here to talk about the

387
01:13:38,875 --> 01:13:41,083
I don't want to get I go on tangents and

388
01:13:41,083 --> 01:13:43,000
I apologize, but, you know, it's really

389
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:45,208
interesting when you talk about people

390
01:13:45,208 --> 01:13:48,375
managing fisheries is what we really, you

391
01:13:48,375 --> 01:13:50,000
know, focus on a lot of the times.

392
01:13:50,041 --> 01:13:53,250
And that seems to be your focus. How did

393
01:13:53,250 --> 01:13:55,916
that transition like happen in your

394
01:13:55,916 --> 01:13:59,416
career where you started to see that

395
01:13:59,416 --> 01:14:01,208
light words like, okay, no, we need to

396
01:14:01,208 --> 01:14:04,041
start looking at how how fishing vessels

397
01:14:04,041 --> 01:14:06,208
and fisheries are are managed in general

398
01:14:06,208 --> 01:14:08,166
from the the vessel

399
01:14:08,166 --> 01:14:10,041
aspect, like who's fishing where?

400
01:14:10,708 --> 01:14:12,666
What are the policies around that? What

401
01:14:12,666 --> 01:14:14,458
are the interesting international and

402
01:14:14,458 --> 01:14:16,375
national laws around that? How did that

403
01:14:16,375 --> 01:14:17,000
transition happen for you?

404
01:14:17,041 --> 01:14:20,750
Yeah, I guess it was quite quite

405
01:14:20,750 --> 01:14:23,541
abruptly, actually. So after I finished

406
01:14:23,541 --> 01:14:27,166
my my PhD and first postdoc, which I said

407
01:14:27,166 --> 01:14:30,291
was all about ecology and behaviors of

408
01:14:30,291 --> 01:14:31,250
shellfish actually

409
01:14:31,250 --> 01:14:32,000
lobsters in particular.

410
01:14:32,041 --> 01:14:35,083
And I went and worked for a consultancy

411
01:14:35,083 --> 01:14:37,750
firm in London, Emrag, and we were doing

412
01:14:37,750 --> 01:14:40,833
a lot of evaluation for the European

413
01:14:40,833 --> 01:14:43,625
Commission as well as UK government. And,

414
01:14:43,625 --> 01:14:46,166
you know, we to start with a lot of that

415
01:14:46,166 --> 01:14:48,000
work was around catch

416
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:49,000
setting tax and quotas.

417
01:14:49,041 --> 01:14:52,583
But obviously, a lot of that was also not

418
01:14:52,583 --> 01:14:54,500
just how do we set that tack and the

419
01:14:54,500 --> 01:14:56,458
total allowable catch and the quotas to

420
01:14:56,458 --> 01:14:58,708
catch that. But then how how is it being

421
01:14:58,708 --> 01:15:01,208
kept? Who is catching it? And yeah, you

422
01:15:01,208 --> 01:15:04,458
know, actually measuring kind of the

423
01:15:04,458 --> 01:15:06,458
catch against what we've said is allowed

424
01:15:06,458 --> 01:15:10,208
to be called is completely rely on who's

425
01:15:10,208 --> 01:15:11,958
being allocated it, where they're getting

426
01:15:11,958 --> 01:15:13,291
that fish, you know, where they're going

427
01:15:13,291 --> 01:15:14,000
and catching that tack.

428
01:15:14,833 --> 01:15:17,291
And, you know, and the trade of that. So

429
01:15:17,291 --> 01:15:19,208
when we start when I started doing a lot

430
01:15:19,208 --> 01:15:20,791
more policy evaluation for the

431
01:15:20,791 --> 01:15:22,000
commission, you know, a lot more of it

432
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:24,583
was focused on on that side of it, the

433
01:15:24,583 --> 01:15:25,916
policy of, you know, of how do we

434
01:15:25,916 --> 01:15:27,541
implement this with the people rather

435
01:15:27,541 --> 01:15:29,958
than the fishery science, which was so

436
01:15:29,958 --> 01:15:32,375
often fed in kind of, you know,

437
01:15:32,916 --> 01:15:34,750
externally by ISIS, actually, in that in

438
01:15:34,750 --> 01:15:36,000
that in that case, right?

439
01:15:36,041 --> 01:15:38,958
It's an interesting matter, because like,

440
01:15:38,958 --> 01:15:41,708
I remember growing up here and listening

441
01:15:41,708 --> 01:15:43,750
to the news, I forget when it actually

442
01:15:43,750 --> 01:15:44,958
happened, but it must have been in the

443
01:15:44,958 --> 01:15:47,583
90s. And it was, you know, going back to

444
01:15:47,583 --> 01:15:50,958
cod, there was a news piece that was on

445
01:15:50,958 --> 01:15:53,625
how there are foreign fishing vessels

446
01:15:53,625 --> 01:15:56,583
fishing at our the border of our

447
01:15:56,583 --> 01:15:59,000
exclusive economic zone in Canada, and

448
01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:00,750
they're fishing for cod and it got to the

449
01:16:00,750 --> 01:16:02,583
point where we sent out, you know,

450
01:16:02,583 --> 01:16:05,041
Canada, the government of Canada sent out coast guard vessels.

451
01:16:06,041 --> 01:16:08,875
To intercept them and to basically chase

452
01:16:08,875 --> 01:16:10,583
them off and to arrest them if they were

453
01:16:10,583 --> 01:16:13,291
in our waters. And I think that was the

454
01:16:13,291 --> 01:16:16,166
first time where I was like, wow, so

455
01:16:16,166 --> 01:16:18,250
people are coming across like cross the

456
01:16:18,250 --> 01:16:20,416
Atlantic. These were European vessels

457
01:16:20,416 --> 01:16:25,375
across the Atlantic fishing for for for

458
01:16:25,375 --> 01:16:27,791
like for cod, and they're not allowed to

459
01:16:27,791 --> 01:16:28,000
and they're still doing it.

460
01:16:28,041 --> 01:16:30,375
And then you start to think about as I

461
01:16:30,375 --> 01:16:31,583
started to go through university, you

462
01:16:31,583 --> 01:16:32,958
hear more and more about illegal

463
01:16:32,958 --> 01:16:35,041
fisheries and how difficult it is to

464
01:16:35,041 --> 01:16:38,208
monitor how difficult it is to stop the

465
01:16:38,208 --> 01:16:39,666
illegal fisheries from happening. You

466
01:16:39,666 --> 01:16:41,083
can't be out on a vessel.

467
01:16:41,500 --> 01:16:43,416
Enforcement's difficult and I learned how

468
01:16:43,416 --> 01:16:47,916
more and more how complex it became. Can

469
01:16:47,916 --> 01:16:50,666
you talk about, we'll get into, let's get

470
01:16:50,666 --> 01:16:52,125
into the report a bit, but just the

471
01:16:52,125 --> 01:16:56,166
overall like the where the fishing vessel

472
01:16:56,166 --> 01:16:57,041
sort of research is at.

473
01:16:58,041 --> 01:17:00,958
To this point, can you give the audience

474
01:17:00,958 --> 01:17:05,208
a bit of an overview of the report and

475
01:17:05,208 --> 01:17:06,875
especially like just in the context of

476
01:17:06,875 --> 01:17:10,208
where we're at and understanding how

477
01:17:10,208 --> 01:17:13,125
fishing vessels are managed worldwide.

478
01:17:14,958 --> 01:17:17,041
Yeah. Yes. And as you said at the

479
01:17:17,041 --> 01:17:20,125
beginning, again, complexity of this is,

480
01:17:20,125 --> 01:17:21,500
is, is, is, is complexity

481
01:17:21,500 --> 01:17:22,000
runs through fisheries, right?

482
01:17:22,041 --> 01:17:25,083
Completely. And the same in when I talk

483
01:17:25,083 --> 01:17:27,083
about these fishing vessels, there's a

484
01:17:27,083 --> 01:17:28,708
divert whole diversity of fishing

485
01:17:28,708 --> 01:17:30,666
vessels, the gear they use, the size of

486
01:17:30,666 --> 01:17:32,000
them, how they operate.

487
01:17:32,500 --> 01:17:34,750
I say I tend to work on the largest of

488
01:17:34,750 --> 01:17:36,375
these fishing vessels, these distant

489
01:17:36,375 --> 01:17:39,833
water fishing vessels and and managing

490
01:17:39,833 --> 01:17:41,333
and understanding them is really

491
01:17:41,333 --> 01:17:42,791
difficult because by their nature,

492
01:17:42,791 --> 01:17:43,958
they're hard to govern.

493
01:17:44,041 --> 01:17:46,666
They operate really far distances from

494
01:17:46,666 --> 01:17:48,708
their home port. They may not even go

495
01:17:48,708 --> 01:17:50,958
back to their home port for many years at

496
01:17:50,958 --> 01:17:52,833
a time because they can they can

497
01:17:52,833 --> 01:17:54,958
transship they can offload their catch at

498
01:17:54,958 --> 01:17:56,000
sea to another vessel

499
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:57,583
and continue fishing.

500
01:17:57,583 --> 01:18:00,000
They can be resupplied refueled. So

501
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:01,583
they're away for long periods of time,

502
01:18:02,375 --> 01:18:04,333
often fishing in the high seas or in the

503
01:18:04,333 --> 01:18:07,250
waters of other of other of other

504
01:18:07,250 --> 01:18:09,500
countries and by their very nature,

505
01:18:09,500 --> 01:18:10,000
they're very transient.

506
01:18:10,041 --> 01:18:12,125
They can be following in the case of tuna

507
01:18:12,125 --> 01:18:13,500
stocks. They could be following these

508
01:18:13,500 --> 01:18:16,333
fish all around whole oceanic basins.

509
01:18:16,791 --> 01:18:18,000
And so that makes them really hard to

510
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:20,833
observe, even harder to kind of control

511
01:18:20,833 --> 01:18:23,750
and understand. And technology, I know

512
01:18:23,750 --> 01:18:25,500
you've had colleagues from

513
01:18:25,500 --> 01:18:26,666
Global Fishing Watch recently.

514
01:18:27,125 --> 01:18:28,875
Technology is making a lot easier to

515
01:18:28,875 --> 01:18:30,708
understand that, to be able to observe

516
01:18:30,708 --> 01:18:33,375
those at sea activities. But, you know,

517
01:18:33,625 --> 01:18:35,791
still identifying wrongdoing is one

518
01:18:35,791 --> 01:18:38,000
thing, actually holding those people to

519
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:40,041
account and actually making sure, you

520
01:18:40,041 --> 01:18:43,500
know, the punishments are kind of handed

521
01:18:43,500 --> 01:18:46,208
down and are appropriate and are large

522
01:18:46,208 --> 01:18:48,541
enough to prevent that activity happening

523
01:18:48,541 --> 01:18:49,000
again in the future.

524
01:18:49,041 --> 01:18:51,333
That's the difficult bit. That's the bit

525
01:18:51,333 --> 01:18:53,708
where technology is helping. But we

526
01:18:53,708 --> 01:18:56,041
really need better policy and better

527
01:18:56,041 --> 01:18:58,166
enforcement of these regulations.

528
01:18:59,416 --> 01:19:01,000
And to bring it to the report, the

529
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:03,291
reason, you know, beneficial ownership

530
01:19:03,291 --> 01:19:05,625
comes into that is that often when these

531
01:19:05,625 --> 01:19:07,583
vessels are caught doing legal fishing,

532
01:19:07,583 --> 01:19:09,916
you know, if there is any punishment,

533
01:19:09,916 --> 01:19:12,166
it's usually the crew or the skipper, you

534
01:19:12,166 --> 01:19:13,500
know, those who actually have the least

535
01:19:13,500 --> 01:19:16,375
kind of power or maybe benefit from these

536
01:19:16,375 --> 01:19:17,750
situations, you know,

537
01:19:17,916 --> 01:19:18,000
from the fishing enterprise.

538
01:19:18,041 --> 01:19:21,083
They're some they're often ones that are

539
01:19:21,083 --> 01:19:23,750
punished while, you know, the owners or

540
01:19:23,750 --> 01:19:27,458
the managers kind of get away with it and

541
01:19:27,458 --> 01:19:28,791
that those crew can be

542
01:19:28,791 --> 01:19:29,791
quite easily replaced.

543
01:19:30,125 --> 01:19:34,250
You know, the wing is now a global sector

544
01:19:34,250 --> 01:19:36,166
where crew can be flown around from all

545
01:19:36,166 --> 01:19:37,000
shipped around from

546
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:38,500
anywhere to replace these crew.

547
01:19:38,875 --> 01:19:40,500
Skippers can be easily replaced. The

548
01:19:40,500 --> 01:19:42,583
vessel can be renamed, re-flagged to

549
01:19:42,583 --> 01:19:44,833
another country. And it goes out the next

550
01:19:44,833 --> 01:19:46,000
week and continues fishing, you know.

551
01:19:46,041 --> 01:19:48,583
And I think that's the big issue here is

552
01:19:48,583 --> 01:19:51,666
these operations, especially these

553
01:19:51,666 --> 01:19:53,750
multi-jurisdictional international

554
01:19:53,750 --> 01:19:56,250
fishing vessels, they seem to be able to

555
01:19:56,250 --> 01:19:58,625
kind of get away with some of these

556
01:19:58,625 --> 01:20:02,000
these, you know, fishing, regular

557
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:03,833
breaking fishing rules and regulations.

558
01:20:04,208 --> 01:20:06,833
Yeah. Yeah. So it's complicated. I hope

559
01:20:06,833 --> 01:20:07,000
that answered your question.

560
01:20:07,041 --> 01:20:10,333
You know, one thing I was thinking, as

561
01:20:10,333 --> 01:20:11,291
you were mentioning, I was thinking of

562
01:20:11,291 --> 01:20:13,291
like an analogy to that is, you know,

563
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:15,875
when you it's almost like organized crime

564
01:20:15,875 --> 01:20:16,958
and sometimes in some

565
01:20:16,958 --> 01:20:18,916
cases, sometimes it is.

566
01:20:18,916 --> 01:20:20,625
Yeah. But it's almost like organized

567
01:20:20,625 --> 01:20:22,958
crime where they they quote unquote,

568
01:20:22,958 --> 01:20:26,541
employ, you know, children under the age

569
01:20:26,541 --> 01:20:28,500
of a certain age so that when they get

570
01:20:28,500 --> 01:20:31,750
caught doing the petty crimes that help,

571
01:20:31,750 --> 01:20:33,958
you know, fund these this organized

572
01:20:33,958 --> 01:20:36,000
crime, they get less punishment.

573
01:20:36,041 --> 01:20:38,208
They go to jail, but they get out, you

574
01:20:38,208 --> 01:20:39,583
know, a lot sooner because the punishment

575
01:20:39,583 --> 01:20:42,041
is less. And I think the same thing you

576
01:20:42,041 --> 01:20:43,416
can say, depending on where they get

577
01:20:43,416 --> 01:20:45,666
caught in terms of the fishing vessels,

578
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:48,500
you know, the crew, the skipper, and

579
01:20:48,500 --> 01:20:50,125
sometimes the crew is not

580
01:20:50,125 --> 01:20:51,333
even supposed to be on that ship.

581
01:20:51,541 --> 01:20:52,708
They're, they're, they're what we call

582
01:20:52,708 --> 01:20:54,916
fishery slaves, but they get less of a

583
01:20:54,916 --> 01:20:57,666
punishment than what the owners should

584
01:20:57,666 --> 01:20:59,541
get. But because you can never really

585
01:20:59,541 --> 01:21:01,250
find the owners. It's difficult when you

586
01:21:01,250 --> 01:21:03,000
look at the paper trail of who owns what

587
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:05,041
I covered a story a number of years ago on this project.

588
01:21:06,041 --> 01:21:07,708
And I remember this podcast, this has

589
01:21:07,708 --> 01:21:08,916
been running for about 10 years, this

590
01:21:08,916 --> 01:21:10,916
podcast, but I remember this story where

591
01:21:10,916 --> 01:21:12,958
we talked about a fishing vessel that was

592
01:21:12,958 --> 01:21:16,458
notorious for being reflagged, renamed

593
01:21:16,458 --> 01:21:18,583
and caught again and then reflagged,

594
01:21:18,583 --> 01:21:20,333
renamed and then, you know, just went

595
01:21:20,333 --> 01:21:21,458
around the world and

596
01:21:21,458 --> 01:21:23,000
people were trying to catch it.

597
01:21:23,041 --> 01:21:25,375
And when they did, they could not figure

598
01:21:25,375 --> 01:21:27,583
out who owned it. It was like, you know,

599
01:21:27,583 --> 01:21:28,541
it would be like bouncing. It was like

600
01:21:28,541 --> 01:21:30,791
one of those mission and possible style

601
01:21:30,791 --> 01:21:33,500
shows, but, but fishing related because

602
01:21:33,500 --> 01:21:35,000
it became that complex.

603
01:21:35,041 --> 01:21:36,750
And there was a lot, there were a lot of

604
01:21:36,750 --> 01:21:40,000
players that some were okay and some

605
01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:42,541
were, you know, illegal and part of

606
01:21:42,541 --> 01:21:44,750
organized crime. And it, and it just, it

607
01:21:44,750 --> 01:21:47,208
was like an untangled web and you just,

608
01:21:47,208 --> 01:21:48,500
you just sit there and you're like, how

609
01:21:48,500 --> 01:21:52,208
is this like where we've come to, you

610
01:21:52,208 --> 01:21:54,458
know, where it becomes even more complex

611
01:21:54,458 --> 01:21:57,833
to break down these, these webs and these

612
01:21:57,833 --> 01:22:00,208
chains of, you know, of who

613
01:22:00,208 --> 01:22:01,541
owns these fishing vessels.

614
01:22:02,041 --> 01:22:03,458
And then you look at sort of the

615
01:22:03,458 --> 01:22:05,416
infrastructure of how this is done and

616
01:22:05,416 --> 01:22:07,916
including this report, like just some of

617
01:22:07,916 --> 01:22:09,250
the highlights of this report, I'll just,

618
01:22:09,250 --> 01:22:11,291
I'll just kind of name like we, we, like

619
01:22:11,291 --> 01:22:14,083
the legal in ownership of fit of like

620
01:22:14,083 --> 01:22:15,750
information for our 62%

621
01:22:16,041 --> 01:22:17,458
of the vessels is missing.

622
01:22:18,500 --> 01:22:20,000
That's, that's over the majority. That's

623
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:22,041
in. So one in six vessels are legally

624
01:22:22,041 --> 01:22:24,250
owned in a country different from their

625
01:22:24,250 --> 01:22:26,916
state flag. So we'll talk about that. And

626
01:22:26,916 --> 01:22:28,541
actually, let's talk about that now. What

627
01:22:28,541 --> 01:22:30,125
does that mean? So that, you know, you

628
01:22:30,125 --> 01:22:31,833
have a, you have a flag like the, that

629
01:22:31,833 --> 01:22:34,250
you fly on the ship, but then the owner

630
01:22:34,250 --> 01:22:36,000
could be in another country.

631
01:22:36,041 --> 01:22:39,041
How can they, how can they get away with

632
01:22:39,041 --> 01:22:41,291
putting a flag out from a different

633
01:22:41,291 --> 01:22:43,375
country if they're, if the owner and say

634
01:22:43,375 --> 01:22:45,125
the US or Canada or the

635
01:22:45,125 --> 01:22:46,625
UK or other countries?

636
01:22:47,958 --> 01:22:51,208
Yeah. I mean, yeah. Re-flagging a vessel

637
01:22:51,208 --> 01:22:55,333
is, is, is all legal and above board. You

638
01:22:55,333 --> 01:22:57,666
know, this has happened for, for decades.

639
01:22:58,125 --> 01:22:59,708
I think, I think initially from in the

640
01:22:59,708 --> 01:23:01,208
merchant Navy, you know, merchant

641
01:23:01,208 --> 01:23:03,375
shipping would, would, would use these

642
01:23:03,375 --> 01:23:05,000
flag reflagged maybe to be able to enter the ship.

643
01:23:05,041 --> 01:23:07,250
Yeah. And to port more easily, things

644
01:23:07,250 --> 01:23:09,916
like that. And so they get away with it

645
01:23:09,916 --> 01:23:11,625
because it's, it's, it's legal. The issue

646
01:23:11,625 --> 01:23:13,875
we have often is particularly with flags,

647
01:23:14,291 --> 01:23:16,791
flag States is that there's not always

648
01:23:16,791 --> 01:23:19,583
the same regulation or, or, or threshold

649
01:23:19,583 --> 01:23:22,250
for entry to be flagged to a nation. So

650
01:23:22,250 --> 01:23:25,083
if I had a boat and we had, we had a boat

651
01:23:25,083 --> 01:23:26,416
together and we wanted to get flagged in

652
01:23:26,416 --> 01:23:28,333
the US, that would be, that would be,

653
01:23:28,333 --> 01:23:30,416
there'd be a lot of, you know, legal

654
01:23:30,416 --> 01:23:32,958
thresholds for us to meet in order for us

655
01:23:32,958 --> 01:23:34,041
to be able to fly that flag.

656
01:23:35,583 --> 01:23:37,208
We also have at the, at the other end of

657
01:23:37,208 --> 01:23:38,416
the scale, what we call these open

658
01:23:38,416 --> 01:23:40,708
registries or flags of convenience. And

659
01:23:40,708 --> 01:23:42,208
this is where it can become a bit of an

660
01:23:42,208 --> 01:23:44,666
issue because the threshold for entry can

661
01:23:44,666 --> 01:23:46,916
be a lot lower. So you may not need any

662
01:23:46,916 --> 01:23:49,666
economic kind of tie to that country. You

663
01:23:49,666 --> 01:23:50,625
may not even have ever had

664
01:23:50,625 --> 01:23:52,000
to set foot in that country.

665
01:23:52,416 --> 01:23:54,750
No, but the register that you can

666
01:23:54,750 --> 01:23:57,583
register your vessel on is open. So

667
01:23:57,583 --> 01:23:59,625
you'll pay some kind of fee and then you

668
01:23:59,625 --> 01:24:01,333
can go in there and I can get the flag

669
01:24:01,333 --> 01:24:05,000
off Panama or Belize, for example. And

670
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:07,291
that allows me then to fish under that

671
01:24:07,291 --> 01:24:09,666
States jurisdiction. That state is then

672
01:24:09,666 --> 01:24:15,000
legally in charge of all the regulatory

673
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:18,000
and social conditions on,

674
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:19,000
on, on my fishing vessel.

675
01:24:19,041 --> 01:24:21,875
And if they have much, much lower rules

676
01:24:21,875 --> 01:24:24,000
than say the US do, you might want to

677
01:24:24,000 --> 01:24:25,791
inspect my fishing vessel, ensure that

678
01:24:25,791 --> 01:24:27,750
working conditions are good for my crew.

679
01:24:28,291 --> 01:24:29,541
If the other flag where I've gone this

680
01:24:29,541 --> 01:24:31,708
flag of convenience don't have that, you

681
01:24:31,708 --> 01:24:33,083
know, it means that there's the

682
01:24:33,083 --> 01:24:35,791
opportunity for me to get away with not

683
01:24:35,791 --> 01:24:37,541
meeting those, those, you know, those,

684
01:24:37,541 --> 01:24:39,000
those regulatory kind of threshold.

685
01:24:39,083 --> 01:24:40,791
Threshold doesn't mean that everyone

686
01:24:40,791 --> 01:24:42,583
who's using the flag conveniences, you

687
01:24:42,583 --> 01:24:45,166
know, is is is is lowering their

688
01:24:45,166 --> 01:24:47,333
standards. It means that they're innate,

689
01:24:47,333 --> 01:24:49,125
they're allowed to it. It's an

690
01:24:49,125 --> 01:24:51,125
opportunity for them to to reduce

691
01:24:51,125 --> 01:24:54,000
standards for safety, for how they're

692
01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:55,291
fishing, for the control

693
01:24:55,291 --> 01:24:56,583
and monitoring of that vessel.

694
01:24:57,500 --> 01:25:00,750
Now, and with that, it says just 10

695
01:25:00,750 --> 01:25:03,916
countries legally own more than half of

696
01:25:03,916 --> 01:25:07,541
the fleet, which for which data is

697
01:25:07,541 --> 01:25:10,083
available. So what does that mean? Like

698
01:25:10,083 --> 01:25:11,833
looking at ownership concentration?

699
01:25:13,041 --> 01:25:17,333
Yeah, yeah, this is a, this is a really,

700
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:21,166
I feel like this is increasing in the in

701
01:25:21,166 --> 01:25:23,000
the in the literature, this this issue

702
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:26,500
because mainly because of the, you know,

703
01:25:26,500 --> 01:25:28,500
the the the state of fisheries at the

704
01:25:28,500 --> 01:25:29,000
moment, I think as well.

705
01:25:29,041 --> 01:25:33,541
And also just ocean economy broadly is

706
01:25:33,541 --> 01:25:36,125
massively expanding. So there's corporate

707
01:25:36,125 --> 01:25:38,625
interests in expanding into the ocean and

708
01:25:38,625 --> 01:25:41,000
investing into the ocean and get to get a

709
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:41,708
return on investment.

710
01:25:42,500 --> 01:25:45,041
And so we kind of chatted before we

711
01:25:45,041 --> 01:25:47,583
filmed about this idea or people might

712
01:25:47,583 --> 01:25:49,750
have a vision of the fishing industry is

713
01:25:49,750 --> 01:25:52,375
these localized fishing vessels going out

714
01:25:52,375 --> 01:25:54,541
maybe for the day, really early in the

715
01:25:54,541 --> 01:25:56,208
morning, catching some fresh fish and

716
01:25:56,208 --> 01:25:57,000
bringing it back to market.

717
01:25:57,041 --> 01:25:59,541
And that certainly is the case for the

718
01:25:59,541 --> 01:26:01,291
majority actually of fishing boats around

719
01:26:01,291 --> 01:26:03,583
the world. But there's also this kind of

720
01:26:03,583 --> 01:26:06,125
part of the industry that is, that is in

721
01:26:06,125 --> 01:26:08,958
heavily financialized, heavily invested

722
01:26:08,958 --> 01:26:11,541
in, you know, in order to make profit.

723
01:26:11,541 --> 01:26:14,041
That's the main goal. It's not a pastime

724
01:26:14,041 --> 01:26:17,333
or, you know, a livelihood as such, you

725
01:26:17,333 --> 01:26:19,583
know, and this is these corporate actors

726
01:26:19,583 --> 01:26:21,875
that are coming in. And we see

727
01:26:21,875 --> 01:26:23,250
concentration of

728
01:26:23,250 --> 01:26:24,000
ownership for a few reasons.

729
01:26:24,041 --> 01:26:27,208
It might be due to the fact that, for

730
01:26:27,208 --> 01:26:29,041
example, when a fishery is overfished and

731
01:26:29,041 --> 01:26:31,083
there's less fish to catch, you know, and

732
01:26:31,083 --> 01:26:32,583
you've got 100 boats that may be a

733
01:26:32,583 --> 01:26:34,583
catching that stock if if their captures,

734
01:26:34,791 --> 01:26:35,833
you know, what they're allowed to capture

735
01:26:35,833 --> 01:26:36,791
is reducing because a

736
01:26:36,791 --> 01:26:37,875
fish stock is overfished.

737
01:26:38,458 --> 01:26:40,375
It becomes much more difficult for them

738
01:26:40,375 --> 01:26:42,291
to turn a profit. And so we often see,

739
01:26:42,291 --> 01:26:44,583
you know, people leaving the industry for

740
01:26:44,583 --> 01:26:45,875
that reason. And that's

741
01:26:45,875 --> 01:26:46,750
when you can get consolidation.

742
01:26:47,041 --> 01:26:49,208
You know, you can also get consolidation

743
01:26:49,208 --> 01:26:51,958
just when there's so much power starts

744
01:26:51,958 --> 01:26:53,833
being concentrated, they essentially have

745
01:26:53,833 --> 01:26:56,125
the money and the means to be able to buy

746
01:26:56,125 --> 01:26:56,958
out with the people

747
01:26:56,958 --> 01:26:57,958
from the fishing industry.

748
01:26:58,791 --> 01:27:01,541
And so, you know, consolidation isn't all

749
01:27:01,541 --> 01:27:04,250
this, as you get this concentration of

750
01:27:04,250 --> 01:27:07,750
ownership isn't inherently bad, but we

751
01:27:07,750 --> 01:27:09,458
need to be able to understand, you know,

752
01:27:09,458 --> 01:27:11,583
how bad it is in order for essentially

753
01:27:11,583 --> 01:27:13,958
the public to make a call like, do we

754
01:27:13,958 --> 01:27:15,666
want our fishing, our fish

755
01:27:15,666 --> 01:27:16,000
in the UK to be exploited?

756
01:27:16,041 --> 01:27:17,500
Do we want the UK to be exploited by a

757
01:27:17,500 --> 01:27:19,250
handful of corporations or do we want it

758
01:27:19,250 --> 01:27:20,708
to be spread out between more people?

759
01:27:21,791 --> 01:27:23,250
Yeah, I mean, that's really stopping

760
01:27:23,250 --> 01:27:25,166
them. And I mean, we've seen other

761
01:27:25,166 --> 01:27:27,208
corporations, you know, here in Canada,

762
01:27:27,208 --> 01:27:29,416
we see the telecommunications, you know,

763
01:27:30,083 --> 01:27:32,000
monopoly of like, you know, two or three

764
01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:33,625
companies who pretty much set the

765
01:27:33,625 --> 01:27:35,583
standard and don't allow other companies

766
01:27:35,583 --> 01:27:36,458
to come in because

767
01:27:36,458 --> 01:27:37,000
it's competition for them.

768
01:27:37,041 --> 01:27:39,833
They get involved in government, they get

769
01:27:39,833 --> 01:27:42,416
more power and stuff. And that happens

770
01:27:42,416 --> 01:27:44,000
across industries, including the fishing

771
01:27:44,000 --> 01:27:46,041
industry. They want to keep that that

772
01:27:46,041 --> 01:27:47,833
power. They want to keep that money to

773
01:27:47,833 --> 01:27:48,416
themselves. They don't

774
01:27:48,416 --> 01:27:49,625
want other players to come in.

775
01:27:49,625 --> 01:27:52,583
But then if if they make a decision that

776
01:27:52,583 --> 01:27:56,125
is not right for for, you know, the the

777
01:27:56,125 --> 01:27:58,750
ecosystem, you know, for that fishery,

778
01:27:58,750 --> 01:28:00,916
for whatever reason, whether it be more

779
01:28:00,916 --> 01:28:03,875
money, more power, that could really turn

780
01:28:03,875 --> 01:28:06,000
quickly, you know, as we've seen in other in other industries.

781
01:28:06,041 --> 01:28:10,041
So is that is that essentially the worry,

782
01:28:10,041 --> 01:28:11,291
the concern on or at

783
01:28:11,291 --> 01:28:12,166
least one of the concerns?

784
01:28:12,750 --> 01:28:14,958
Yeah, for sure. You know, that when you

785
01:28:14,958 --> 01:28:17,250
get these really dominant firms, this,

786
01:28:17,583 --> 01:28:19,333
you know, there is the ability for them

787
01:28:19,333 --> 01:28:21,000
to first exercise that market power.

788
01:28:21,041 --> 01:28:24,833
So they because they're earning such

789
01:28:24,833 --> 01:28:26,833
excess profits or can be an excess

790
01:28:26,833 --> 01:28:29,958
profits, it allows them to almost be able

791
01:28:29,958 --> 01:28:33,416
to set the price, potentially suppress

792
01:28:33,416 --> 01:28:36,208
wages or weaken livelihood opportunities

793
01:28:36,208 --> 01:28:37,833
for the fisher. Again, I'm not saying

794
01:28:37,833 --> 01:28:38,791
this is what happens.

795
01:28:38,791 --> 01:28:40,333
I'm just saying that is a theoretical.

796
01:28:40,666 --> 01:28:42,666
This is, you know, what we see in

797
01:28:42,666 --> 01:28:45,333
economic theory. The second thing is

798
01:28:45,333 --> 01:28:47,041
they're able to like shape the actual

799
01:28:47,041 --> 01:28:49,375
conditions of, you know, the food system

800
01:28:49,375 --> 01:28:50,041
itself. So they can be determined.

801
01:28:51,041 --> 01:28:53,916
You know, what types of, you know, how is

802
01:28:53,916 --> 01:28:55,500
this fish process? What is it because

803
01:28:55,500 --> 01:28:56,958
they because they have such control over

804
01:28:56,958 --> 01:28:58,583
the market, they can determine what are

805
01:28:58,583 --> 01:29:00,250
the products? What's the quality of that

806
01:29:00,250 --> 01:29:02,000
product that's being fed into the market?

807
01:29:02,000 --> 01:29:04,291
Because essentially, you know, end up can

808
01:29:04,291 --> 01:29:06,625
monopolize this, this market. And then

809
01:29:06,625 --> 01:29:08,583
the third one, as you alluded to that,

810
01:29:08,583 --> 01:29:11,958
that these dominant firms can kind of a

811
01:29:11,958 --> 01:29:14,333
concern on that is that excess political

812
01:29:14,333 --> 01:29:18,375
power, that ability to not only shape the

813
01:29:18,375 --> 01:29:20,041
economics or the or the or the physical power.

814
01:29:21,041 --> 01:29:21,958
And that's the physical reality of these

815
01:29:21,958 --> 01:29:24,791
food system, food systems, but also the

816
01:29:24,791 --> 01:29:26,750
policies. Now, if you have that much

817
01:29:26,750 --> 01:29:29,166
power, and as you said, in other systems,

818
01:29:30,583 --> 01:29:32,458
you know, we see this a lot, probably a

819
01:29:32,458 --> 01:29:33,666
little less in fisheries, but it

820
01:29:33,666 --> 01:29:34,833
definitely happens, right?

821
01:29:34,833 --> 01:29:36,166
Like, we definitely know that there are

822
01:29:36,166 --> 01:29:38,500
there are lobbying. I mean, you know, and

823
01:29:38,500 --> 01:29:40,541
so so that's the part of the issue is

824
01:29:40,541 --> 01:29:43,750
that is the distribution of power, you

825
01:29:43,750 --> 01:29:45,500
know, and that can result as a

826
01:29:45,500 --> 01:29:46,666
concentration of that

827
01:29:46,666 --> 01:29:48,541
access or or ownership.

828
01:29:49,416 --> 01:29:51,583
Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. Really

829
01:29:51,583 --> 01:29:55,166
interesting. Let's talk about registries

830
01:29:55,166 --> 01:29:58,166
here. The one of the highlights that

831
01:29:58,166 --> 01:30:00,791
really stood out to me, Panama believes

832
01:30:00,791 --> 01:30:02,833
Honduras top the list of flagging vessels

833
01:30:02,833 --> 01:30:04,458
legally owned by foreign corporations.

834
01:30:05,541 --> 01:30:07,916
Why these countries? Is it just because

835
01:30:07,916 --> 01:30:09,416
of the standards that they have? Maybe

836
01:30:09,416 --> 01:30:11,166
it's easier to own vessels in that

837
01:30:11,166 --> 01:30:12,708
country with that flag, as you mentioned

838
01:30:12,708 --> 01:30:15,208
earlier, in terms of like, maybe they can

839
01:30:15,208 --> 01:30:17,125
get away with a little bit more, they

840
01:30:17,125 --> 01:30:18,625
have a little bit more flexibility than

841
01:30:18,625 --> 01:30:19,333
than other countries.

842
01:30:20,625 --> 01:30:23,041
Yeah, I mean, these particularly Panama,

843
01:30:23,291 --> 01:30:25,208
this is, you know, I guess a political

844
01:30:25,208 --> 01:30:32,125
decision to be a flag that allows other,

845
01:30:32,125 --> 01:30:34,416
you know, organizations, companies from

846
01:30:34,416 --> 01:30:36,458
different countries to flag to them, you

847
01:30:36,458 --> 01:30:38,500
know, it brings in it can bring in quite

848
01:30:38,500 --> 01:30:41,000
a lot of foreign currency, which can be a

849
01:30:41,000 --> 01:30:42,916
really good thing to help, you know,

850
01:30:42,916 --> 01:30:43,000
develop the country.

851
01:30:43,041 --> 01:30:46,375
Obviously, Panama is intrinsically linked

852
01:30:46,375 --> 01:30:48,708
to fishing, right? Right. The Panama

853
01:30:48,708 --> 01:30:51,208
Canal. So of course, a lot of this is

854
01:30:51,208 --> 01:30:53,500
kind of historical as well and and stuff.

855
01:30:53,750 --> 01:30:56,250
But but yeah, that the openness of the

856
01:30:56,250 --> 01:30:59,333
ability to have an open or the presence

857
01:30:59,333 --> 01:31:02,500
of that open registry leads them to be to

858
01:31:02,500 --> 01:31:04,000
be, you know, the key flag state.

859
01:31:04,041 --> 01:31:08,583
So Panama, Belize, 100 Liberia as well,

860
01:31:08,583 --> 01:31:11,125
for example, they're big flag states in

861
01:31:11,125 --> 01:31:14,250
merchant shipping as well. Fishing

862
01:31:14,250 --> 01:31:16,000
obviously is kind of just followed suit.

863
01:31:16,291 --> 01:31:17,375
So of course, I don't think it's

864
01:31:17,375 --> 01:31:19,666
necessarily and cruise ships as well,

865
01:31:19,666 --> 01:31:20,500
actually, in the case of

866
01:31:20,500 --> 01:31:21,625
I think Panama and Belize.

867
01:31:22,041 --> 01:31:25,166
And so it's that it's that the threshold

868
01:31:25,166 --> 01:31:27,875
to entry is much lower. And so, you know,

869
01:31:27,875 --> 01:31:30,333
and also it can be some of these flag

870
01:31:30,333 --> 01:31:33,208
states can offer kind of more different

871
01:31:33,208 --> 01:31:35,458
incentives. So some of them may be lower

872
01:31:35,458 --> 01:31:36,666
registration fees, some

873
01:31:36,666 --> 01:31:38,458
of them may be anonymity.

874
01:31:38,791 --> 01:31:40,375
Right. So in Panama, we all probably

875
01:31:40,375 --> 01:31:42,125
heard about the Panama papers that

876
01:31:42,125 --> 01:31:45,541
released in certainly hit the UK very in

877
01:31:45,541 --> 01:31:46,791
the news very heavily.

878
01:31:47,666 --> 01:31:50,291
So that level of anonymity, anonymity can

879
01:31:50,291 --> 01:31:52,458
also be quite attractive to to

880
01:31:52,458 --> 01:31:55,000
corporations. And then, as you said, that

881
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:57,666
potentially lower regulations in terms

882
01:31:57,666 --> 01:32:01,166
of, you know, crewing regulations or

883
01:32:01,166 --> 01:32:03,833
working conditions or maybe even the

884
01:32:03,833 --> 01:32:06,000
monitoring of what they're doing at sea.

885
01:32:06,833 --> 01:32:08,125
Yeah. So can you just go into a little

886
01:32:08,125 --> 01:32:10,166
bit more detail of that, that news that

887
01:32:10,166 --> 01:32:11,833
came out that hit that had written a

888
01:32:11,833 --> 01:32:12,666
little bit with the

889
01:32:12,666 --> 01:32:14,000
anonymity and anonymity?

890
01:32:14,041 --> 01:32:17,875
Yes, so I don't I don't I'm not across

891
01:32:17,875 --> 01:32:19,750
the story completely, but the Panama

892
01:32:19,750 --> 01:32:23,875
Papers was essentially a leak of I think

893
01:32:23,875 --> 01:32:26,416
thousands of kind of registered

894
01:32:26,416 --> 01:32:28,833
corporations and people that had

895
01:32:28,833 --> 01:32:30,625
registered accounts in

896
01:32:30,625 --> 01:32:32,000
the Panama in Panama.

897
01:32:32,041 --> 01:32:34,583
And it kind of showed like who they were,

898
01:32:34,833 --> 01:32:36,833
what what income they were getting. And,

899
01:32:36,833 --> 01:32:39,958
you know, there was quite a few, if I

900
01:32:39,958 --> 01:32:42,500
remember at the time, politically, you

901
01:32:42,500 --> 01:32:43,625
know, involved people were

902
01:32:43,625 --> 01:32:45,708
on this list. Right. Right.

903
01:32:45,875 --> 01:32:47,583
It was it was basically a big a big leak

904
01:32:47,583 --> 01:32:49,666
on and that led to a lot of these

905
01:32:49,666 --> 01:32:51,166
discussions, particularly on beneficial

906
01:32:51,166 --> 01:32:54,333
ownership in fact, in Europe of, you

907
01:32:54,333 --> 01:32:56,250
know, especially if you're a politician,

908
01:32:56,541 --> 01:32:59,208
but but for, you know, these people is is

909
01:32:59,208 --> 01:33:00,625
what do you own where in

910
01:33:00,625 --> 01:33:01,000
the world, you know, because

911
01:33:01,041 --> 01:33:05,000
part of this of knowing these owners is

912
01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:07,166
is also from a government perspective,

913
01:33:07,166 --> 01:33:09,583
being able to levy them and tax them

914
01:33:09,583 --> 01:33:11,833
appropriately because, you know, that's

915
01:33:11,833 --> 01:33:14,166
an issue, particularly in the EU is if

916
01:33:14,166 --> 01:33:17,041
you don't know what what investments and

917
01:33:17,041 --> 01:33:19,000
interests they own, it becomes very

918
01:33:19,000 --> 01:33:21,000
difficult to know, you know, what's a

919
01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:23,875
fair taxation for these for these people.

920
01:33:24,500 --> 01:33:25,916
Yeah. And where are those? Where's

921
01:33:25,916 --> 01:33:27,416
where's where's where is their money

922
01:33:27,416 --> 01:33:29,000
being invested elsewhere in the world?

923
01:33:29,041 --> 01:33:32,750
Yeah. And then is it, you know, on the up

924
01:33:32,750 --> 01:33:34,458
and up to, you know, if that money is

925
01:33:34,458 --> 01:33:36,333
being invested is where it's going. Yeah.

926
01:33:36,416 --> 01:33:38,625
Transparency is such a big key that gets

927
01:33:38,625 --> 01:33:41,208
lost in a lot of these things. We talk

928
01:33:41,208 --> 01:33:44,250
about, you know, concentrations and what

929
01:33:44,250 --> 01:33:46,250
countries hold a lot of the flag

930
01:33:46,250 --> 01:33:47,000
ownership and so forth.

931
01:33:47,041 --> 01:33:50,666
We look at impacts on those states, on

932
01:33:50,666 --> 01:33:54,041
those coastal states and how, you know,

933
01:33:54,041 --> 01:33:57,791
this type of work impacts those. So like,

934
01:33:58,041 --> 01:33:59,500
for instance, like, how does a opaque

935
01:33:59,500 --> 01:34:03,416
ownership, like reduce revenue and

936
01:34:03,416 --> 01:34:04,500
enforcement capacity for

937
01:34:04,500 --> 01:34:05,541
some of these coastal nations?

938
01:34:07,416 --> 01:34:09,791
Yeah, so for the coastal nations, as we

939
01:34:09,791 --> 01:34:12,208
talked about before, you know, a big part

940
01:34:12,208 --> 01:34:14,291
of it for enforcement is knowing who is

941
01:34:14,291 --> 01:34:15,958
accountable for that for that vessel.

942
01:34:16,416 --> 01:34:18,333
As I said, you know, you might you might

943
01:34:18,333 --> 01:34:19,875
you might find a vessel doing some

944
01:34:19,875 --> 01:34:21,916
illegal fishing and you can stop it. And,

945
01:34:22,291 --> 01:34:23,958
you know, at that point, all you have is

946
01:34:23,958 --> 01:34:26,708
the crew and the people on the boat. And

947
01:34:26,708 --> 01:34:28,708
that's not always sufficient to prevent

948
01:34:28,708 --> 01:34:29,791
that boat from being able

949
01:34:29,791 --> 01:34:30,916
to continue in the future.

950
01:34:31,041 --> 01:34:34,875
Yeah. And then I mean, one of the other

951
01:34:34,875 --> 01:34:36,541
issues is, you know, if I'm a coastal

952
01:34:36,541 --> 01:34:39,416
state and vessels are coming to fish in

953
01:34:39,416 --> 01:34:42,333
my water or wanting to flag to that, not

954
01:34:42,333 --> 01:34:44,208
knowing who they are means I don't really

955
01:34:44,208 --> 01:34:45,375
know the background of them.

956
01:34:45,375 --> 01:34:48,500
I don't know what other fisheries they're

957
01:34:48,500 --> 01:34:50,791
involved with, they've had, you know,

958
01:34:50,791 --> 01:34:52,875
broken the rules elsewhere, whether this

959
01:34:52,875 --> 01:34:54,750
vessel that's coming to fish here now has

960
01:34:54,750 --> 01:34:56,416
fished in, you know, all these other

961
01:34:56,416 --> 01:34:57,625
coastal states and maybe

962
01:34:57,625 --> 01:34:58,000
has been kicked out of them.

963
01:34:58,041 --> 01:35:00,666
You know, I don't know that if I don't

964
01:35:00,666 --> 01:35:02,958
know who the owner is and what are the

965
01:35:02,958 --> 01:35:06,000
interests that they're connected to. And

966
01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:07,666
I think that's the big, a big part of it

967
01:35:07,666 --> 01:35:10,208
as well is knowing who they are because,

968
01:35:10,208 --> 01:35:13,958
you know, and the risks involved, you

969
01:35:13,958 --> 01:35:15,250
know, it's hard to do a full risk

970
01:35:15,250 --> 01:35:17,541
assessment if I don't know who the

971
01:35:17,541 --> 01:35:19,166
companies and the people are

972
01:35:19,166 --> 01:35:21,000
behind this fishing vessel.

973
01:35:21,041 --> 01:35:23,625
Do you have like a specific, like real

974
01:35:23,625 --> 01:35:26,166
world example of something that's

975
01:35:26,166 --> 01:35:29,500
happened, you know, where like the, you

976
01:35:29,500 --> 01:35:30,875
know, these coastal nations kind of paid

977
01:35:30,875 --> 01:35:32,875
the price or, you know, or we're starting

978
01:35:32,875 --> 01:35:34,708
to see this type of action

979
01:35:34,708 --> 01:35:36,000
happening in a coastal nation?

980
01:35:36,041 --> 01:35:40,375
And not off the top of my head, but I

981
01:35:40,375 --> 01:35:44,708
will give a good example of I think the

982
01:35:44,708 --> 01:35:46,625
difficulties that not just coastal

983
01:35:46,625 --> 01:35:49,083
states, but anyone involved in fisheries

984
01:35:49,083 --> 01:35:51,666
enforcement have is this example of a

985
01:35:51,666 --> 01:35:54,291
policy brief that I collaborated with my

986
01:35:54,291 --> 01:35:56,083
colleagues in Oceania, Europe with, I

987
01:35:56,083 --> 01:35:58,208
think it was about six months ago, about

988
01:35:58,208 --> 01:36:00,416
this, this series of vessels all owned by

989
01:36:00,416 --> 01:36:01,333
one company, they're all

990
01:36:01,333 --> 01:36:02,000
named after different whales.

991
01:36:02,041 --> 01:36:04,541
It was like, you know, the fin whale, the

992
01:36:04,541 --> 01:36:07,583
second right whale. I can't remember,

993
01:36:07,583 --> 01:36:09,166
there's about six of these vessels and we

994
01:36:09,166 --> 01:36:11,458
kind of did all this analysis looking at

995
01:36:11,458 --> 01:36:12,500
where they'd been fishing.

996
01:36:12,958 --> 01:36:14,958
Many of them have been caught illegally

997
01:36:14,958 --> 01:36:17,375
fishing in the past. And we looked at

998
01:36:17,375 --> 01:36:20,041
their history of ownership and flagging

999
01:36:20,041 --> 01:36:21,000
and where they'd been fishing.

1000
01:36:21,041 --> 01:36:23,916
You know, ownership had changed between

1001
01:36:23,916 --> 01:36:26,750
different EU member states to Russia back

1002
01:36:26,750 --> 01:36:28,916
to EU member states and where they were

1003
01:36:28,916 --> 01:36:31,250
flagged to, you know, have no connection

1004
01:36:31,250 --> 01:36:32,500
to who owned them or

1005
01:36:32,500 --> 01:36:33,125
where they were fishing.

1006
01:36:33,625 --> 01:36:35,750
And we wrote this report kind of saying,

1007
01:36:36,041 --> 01:36:37,791
you know, there's some kind of link to

1008
01:36:37,791 --> 01:36:39,833
eat an EU member state here. This is

1009
01:36:39,833 --> 01:36:41,958
worrying. And by the time we gave, I

1010
01:36:41,958 --> 01:36:43,625
think we gave the company notice, you

1011
01:36:43,625 --> 01:36:45,000
know, just to make sure we're writing

1012
01:36:45,000 --> 01:36:45,583
about this company,

1013
01:36:45,583 --> 01:36:46,000
they should have notice.

1014
01:36:46,041 --> 01:36:48,375
About a week later, when we actually

1015
01:36:48,375 --> 01:36:50,833
launched the report the day before all

1016
01:36:50,833 --> 01:36:53,333
these vessels were reflagged. And so the

1017
01:36:53,333 --> 01:36:55,291
report was instantly out of date. And

1018
01:36:55,291 --> 01:36:56,500
that just shows you how how

1019
01:36:56,500 --> 01:36:58,291
quickly these vessels can move.

1020
01:36:58,875 --> 01:37:00,500
You know, you think you've got them

1021
01:37:00,500 --> 01:37:02,041
pinned and then suddenly they're

1022
01:37:02,041 --> 01:37:03,708
reflagged somewhere else. And so if

1023
01:37:03,708 --> 01:37:05,500
you're working with the flag state where

1024
01:37:05,500 --> 01:37:08,750
they are now trying to, you know, get

1025
01:37:08,750 --> 01:37:11,000
them hold them to account for some of

1026
01:37:11,000 --> 01:37:11,750
their previous actions.

1027
01:37:12,708 --> 01:37:13,916
You know, suddenly they're based on the

1028
01:37:13,916 --> 01:37:15,000
other side of the world. By the time

1029
01:37:15,000 --> 01:37:16,208
you're actually trying to get some

1030
01:37:16,208 --> 01:37:18,958
movement. So, you know, the speed at

1031
01:37:18,958 --> 01:37:20,125
which this happens is

1032
01:37:20,125 --> 01:37:21,375
is quite surprising.

1033
01:37:22,083 --> 01:37:25,083
These vessels can almost disappear like a

1034
01:37:25,083 --> 01:37:26,125
magic trick reappear.

1035
01:37:27,750 --> 01:37:31,958
That's fascinating in a way, you got to

1036
01:37:31,958 --> 01:37:34,458
give them their respect in terms of how

1037
01:37:34,458 --> 01:37:36,291
quickly they can maneuver. They've

1038
01:37:36,291 --> 01:37:38,000
obviously seen this happen before and

1039
01:37:38,000 --> 01:37:39,875
they've been able to overcome it.

1040
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:42,625
How do we like, you know, as people who

1041
01:37:42,625 --> 01:37:45,375
want to manage fisheries better, how do

1042
01:37:45,375 --> 01:37:46,750
we prevent this from happening?

1043
01:37:47,583 --> 01:37:49,333
Like what's what's the mechanism that we

1044
01:37:49,333 --> 01:37:51,833
as people who, you know, scientists and

1045
01:37:51,833 --> 01:37:53,750
conservationists and people all around

1046
01:37:53,750 --> 01:37:54,791
the world, like it doesn't matter what

1047
01:37:54,791 --> 01:37:55,625
country you live in.

1048
01:37:55,625 --> 01:37:57,166
Like you can't we can't let this happen.

1049
01:37:57,166 --> 01:37:59,458
How does this how do we stop

1050
01:37:59,458 --> 01:38:01,208
this this type of behavior?

1051
01:38:02,416 --> 01:38:05,500
Yeah, yeah, I mean, right.

1052
01:38:06,125 --> 01:38:09,750
Yeah, I know. If I knew, I mean, I'd be

1053
01:38:09,750 --> 01:38:11,791
out of work tomorrow if we answered it.

1054
01:38:11,791 --> 01:38:14,916
But I think it's again,

1055
01:38:15,125 --> 01:38:16,041
it's incredibly complex, right?

1056
01:38:17,041 --> 01:38:19,458
I think there's multiple parts at which

1057
01:38:19,458 --> 01:38:22,250
we need better policies, better

1058
01:38:22,250 --> 01:38:24,125
regulations and better implementation of

1059
01:38:24,125 --> 01:38:26,125
them. So, you know, at the flag state

1060
01:38:26,125 --> 01:38:30,000
level, when a vessel is being flagged to

1061
01:38:30,000 --> 01:38:31,625
your country, you know, to your flag to

1062
01:38:31,625 --> 01:38:33,416
fly your flag is to ensure that you're

1063
01:38:33,416 --> 01:38:34,333
collecting that information.

1064
01:38:35,041 --> 01:38:37,000
Yeah, okay, I want to know the beneficial

1065
01:38:37,000 --> 01:38:39,125
owners. That's the the individual human

1066
01:38:39,125 --> 01:38:40,791
at the top of that ownership change,

1067
01:38:40,791 --> 01:38:42,041
because we haven't even talked about

1068
01:38:42,041 --> 01:38:43,458
that, actually, the fact that you're not

1069
01:38:43,458 --> 01:38:45,000
just one company and a person, there can

1070
01:38:45,000 --> 01:38:47,625
be a network of shell companies.

1071
01:38:48,041 --> 01:38:50,166
So, so, so, so, so at the flag state

1072
01:38:50,166 --> 01:38:52,000
level, it's that it's okay, you want to

1073
01:38:52,000 --> 01:38:53,791
flag to my I need to know who are the

1074
01:38:53,791 --> 01:38:56,500
people behind this show me, you know, I

1075
01:38:56,500 --> 01:38:58,500
need to know all that kind of ownership

1076
01:38:58,500 --> 01:39:00,791
chain behind you before you can even be

1077
01:39:00,791 --> 01:39:02,000
registered, you know,

1078
01:39:02,041 --> 01:39:05,291
then ideally that these flag states

1079
01:39:05,291 --> 01:39:07,416
automate that information public or to

1080
01:39:07,416 --> 01:39:10,916
the extent that they're able to. And then

1081
01:39:10,916 --> 01:39:12,541
there's the coastal states, that's where

1082
01:39:12,541 --> 01:39:14,625
these vessels then go fishing. And again,

1083
01:39:14,625 --> 01:39:16,500
that's another opportunity to say, you

1084
01:39:16,500 --> 01:39:18,208
know, you have license to now come and

1085
01:39:18,208 --> 01:39:20,458
fish our waters and take our some of our

1086
01:39:20,458 --> 01:39:23,291
fish to do that, you know, here's some

1087
01:39:23,291 --> 01:39:24,583
thresholds you have to meet some

1088
01:39:24,583 --> 01:39:25,000
standards you have to meet.

1089
01:39:25,041 --> 01:39:27,583
Yeah, and again, one of those could be,

1090
01:39:27,833 --> 01:39:29,208
you know, we want to know the history of

1091
01:39:29,208 --> 01:39:31,250
your fishing, where you fished for the

1092
01:39:31,250 --> 01:39:32,916
last six months, for say,

1093
01:39:33,291 --> 01:39:35,666
like some some VMS tracking data.

1094
01:39:35,666 --> 01:39:38,083
Yeah, and as well, yeah, who, who are

1095
01:39:38,083 --> 01:39:40,000
your owners and what other vessels today

1096
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:42,291
own what, what the risks involved of us

1097
01:39:42,291 --> 01:39:44,083
allowing your vessel to come in, enter

1098
01:39:44,083 --> 01:39:45,708
our waters and take our

1099
01:39:45,708 --> 01:39:46,875
publicly owned resource.

1100
01:39:47,041 --> 01:39:49,625
Yeah, so so there's there as well. And

1101
01:39:49,625 --> 01:39:51,583
then there's also the market state. So

1102
01:39:51,583 --> 01:39:53,291
once that fish is kind of is, you know,

1103
01:39:53,291 --> 01:39:55,583
ultimately that fish is worthless until

1104
01:39:55,583 --> 01:39:57,125
it comes to land until

1105
01:39:57,125 --> 01:39:58,458
it's landed and actually sold.

1106
01:39:59,041 --> 01:40:01,208
And so through the port state, that's

1107
01:40:01,208 --> 01:40:02,458
where they had landed the fish and then

1108
01:40:02,458 --> 01:40:03,916
the market state where that fish is

1109
01:40:03,916 --> 01:40:06,666
eventually sold for consumption. You

1110
01:40:06,666 --> 01:40:07,625
know, you can you can bring in

1111
01:40:07,625 --> 01:40:09,541
regulations there like trying to trace

1112
01:40:09,541 --> 01:40:11,583
that fish like, can you show me who

1113
01:40:11,583 --> 01:40:13,083
caught it and, you know,

1114
01:40:13,250 --> 01:40:14,000
and that ownership chain.

1115
01:40:14,041 --> 01:40:17,875
Yeah. So there's many places and again,

1116
01:40:17,875 --> 01:40:19,791
this is why makes it hard because of

1117
01:40:19,791 --> 01:40:21,500
course, if any of those places, there's a

1118
01:40:21,500 --> 01:40:23,041
weak link, you know,

1119
01:40:23,333 --> 01:40:24,333
it's all your forefather.

1120
01:40:24,791 --> 01:40:26,541
Yeah. And of course, everybody's gonna go

1121
01:40:26,541 --> 01:40:28,666
and get their ship flagged in that in

1122
01:40:28,666 --> 01:40:31,000
that state because that's where it's

1123
01:40:31,000 --> 01:40:33,041
easier. It's you know, it's very similar

1124
01:40:33,041 --> 01:40:34,666
to, you know, when we look at fisheries,

1125
01:40:35,125 --> 01:40:36,541
the actual fisheries and the

1126
01:40:36,541 --> 01:40:37,000
supply chain of those fisheries.

1127
01:40:37,041 --> 01:40:39,416
I think the Marine Stewardship Council

1128
01:40:39,416 --> 01:40:41,708
has been pretty adamant about tracking

1129
01:40:41,708 --> 01:40:44,916
where from the point of catch all the way

1130
01:40:44,916 --> 01:40:48,041
to the point of sale of how like let's

1131
01:40:48,041 --> 01:40:49,125
let's track who's involved

1132
01:40:49,125 --> 01:40:51,125
in that that supply chain.

1133
01:40:51,625 --> 01:40:53,166
So it makes it more transparent. You can

1134
01:40:53,166 --> 01:40:54,750
tell, you know, which fish is there. You

1135
01:40:54,750 --> 01:40:59,416
can decrease, you know, the the I guess

1136
01:40:59,416 --> 01:41:01,166
the number of times there's

1137
01:41:01,166 --> 01:41:02,000
fraud like fisheries fraud.

1138
01:41:02,041 --> 01:41:04,750
I saw this Oceana reports a number of

1139
01:41:04,750 --> 01:41:06,583
years ago highlighted where I think in

1140
01:41:06,583 --> 01:41:10,708
some cases in Toronto is like like 48% of

1141
01:41:10,708 --> 01:41:12,875
the fish were like fraud fraudulent

1142
01:41:12,875 --> 01:41:14,875
depending on the fish and which is scary.

1143
01:41:14,875 --> 01:41:17,333
Like you if you try to buy something

1144
01:41:17,333 --> 01:41:19,083
that's sustainable, but it's not the fish

1145
01:41:19,083 --> 01:41:21,000
that you think you're buying, which is an

1146
01:41:21,000 --> 01:41:22,000
unsustainable caught fish.

1147
01:41:22,041 --> 01:41:24,208
You know, you're you're you just

1148
01:41:24,208 --> 01:41:26,625
unknowingly, you know, participate in

1149
01:41:26,625 --> 01:41:28,666
this kind of action. It's almost like we

1150
01:41:28,666 --> 01:41:31,666
need the same thing for the ownership of

1151
01:41:31,666 --> 01:41:33,875
the vessels, you know, like just making

1152
01:41:33,875 --> 01:41:36,875
sure that we can track and like take away

1153
01:41:36,875 --> 01:41:37,916
these shell companies

1154
01:41:37,916 --> 01:41:39,000
and it's like owner.

1155
01:41:39,041 --> 01:41:41,333
All right, here's the owner. This is the

1156
01:41:41,333 --> 01:41:43,375
vessel that they own. Here's where they

1157
01:41:43,375 --> 01:41:45,791
have all their flag vessels and do they

1158
01:41:45,791 --> 01:41:47,916
have a good report in one country

1159
01:41:47,916 --> 01:41:50,000
compared to another country? And if they

1160
01:41:50,000 --> 01:41:51,750
don't, maybe they should pay for that by

1161
01:41:51,750 --> 01:41:55,625
not being able to flag a vessel in

1162
01:41:55,625 --> 01:41:57,416
another country and they're just able to

1163
01:41:57,416 --> 01:42:00,458
flag, you know, in one or two, one or two

1164
01:42:00,458 --> 01:42:02,041
countries and be monitored specifically

1165
01:42:02,041 --> 01:42:03,000
for for that action.

1166
01:42:03,041 --> 01:42:06,500
I think that's you know, is that like, I

1167
01:42:06,500 --> 01:42:08,000
mean, I feel like that's a fair and

1168
01:42:08,000 --> 01:42:10,833
transparent way of of tracking these

1169
01:42:10,833 --> 01:42:12,208
vessels doesn't have to be available to

1170
01:42:12,208 --> 01:42:13,541
the public, but to some of these

1171
01:42:13,541 --> 01:42:15,791
organizations, like maybe Oceana or

1172
01:42:15,791 --> 01:42:17,083
somebody like that, where they can

1173
01:42:17,083 --> 01:42:20,958
actually track these this type of of I

1174
01:42:20,958 --> 01:42:22,333
guess business chain, you

1175
01:42:22,333 --> 01:42:23,583
know, who owns these vessels.

1176
01:42:24,625 --> 01:42:27,000
Yeah, I mean, that's the goal. Yeah.

1177
01:42:28,041 --> 01:42:31,916
We campaign Oceana and many of our NGO

1178
01:42:31,916 --> 01:42:34,291
colleagues for publicly disclosed

1179
01:42:34,291 --> 01:42:37,291
ownership databases that that is that is

1180
01:42:37,291 --> 01:42:38,625
that that is what we want. That is our

1181
01:42:38,625 --> 01:42:40,333
gold standard to have beneficial

1182
01:42:40,333 --> 01:42:42,958
ownership of EU flag vessels at minimum

1183
01:42:42,958 --> 01:42:45,000
in the EU to be publicly available.

1184
01:42:46,041 --> 01:42:47,666
Then for these member states to make

1185
01:42:47,666 --> 01:42:49,208
their citizens and the companies

1186
01:42:49,208 --> 01:42:52,375
registered there to also disclose what

1187
01:42:52,375 --> 01:42:55,250
what financial interests or other

1188
01:42:55,250 --> 01:42:57,708
interests they have in in other countries

1189
01:42:57,708 --> 01:42:59,791
and for that to be publicly disclosed.

1190
01:43:00,458 --> 01:43:02,041
But we know that some countries do

1191
01:43:02,041 --> 01:43:03,916
collect this information, but maybe don't

1192
01:43:03,916 --> 01:43:05,541
share it. We also know that in some

1193
01:43:05,541 --> 01:43:08,291
countries, you know, different government

1194
01:43:08,291 --> 01:43:09,500
departments might collect this

1195
01:43:09,500 --> 01:43:12,250
information and don't then share it with

1196
01:43:12,250 --> 01:43:13,541
the fisheries ministry or

1197
01:43:13,541 --> 01:43:14,791
the fisheries authorities.

1198
01:43:15,625 --> 01:43:18,875
So there's an issue of the data either

1199
01:43:18,875 --> 01:43:21,166
not existing when it does exist as an

1200
01:43:21,166 --> 01:43:22,791
issue of it not being shared properly.

1201
01:43:23,166 --> 01:43:24,833
And then we have this issue of the data

1202
01:43:24,833 --> 01:43:27,208
not aligning. So, you know, the the

1203
01:43:27,208 --> 01:43:28,500
definition of a beneficial

1204
01:43:28,500 --> 01:43:29,041
owner or how we identify it.

1205
01:43:30,041 --> 01:43:32,958
Identify that ownership doesn't match up.

1206
01:43:32,958 --> 01:43:35,208
So, you know, this makes it really

1207
01:43:35,208 --> 01:43:38,500
difficult for for outsiders, as it were,

1208
01:43:38,666 --> 01:43:40,750
like myself who want access this to

1209
01:43:40,750 --> 01:43:42,541
understand that better to try and

1210
01:43:42,541 --> 01:43:44,000
communicate that to the public.

1211
01:43:44,041 --> 01:43:47,500
You know, often we we pay all the

1212
01:43:47,500 --> 01:43:48,916
organizations who collect this

1213
01:43:48,916 --> 01:43:51,291
information. So even the information used

1214
01:43:51,291 --> 01:43:53,708
in this report isn't technically public

1215
01:43:53,708 --> 01:43:55,583
information because it's behind the

1216
01:43:55,583 --> 01:43:57,541
paywall. Right. So and

1217
01:43:57,541 --> 01:43:59,041
it's not a small pay.

1218
01:43:59,041 --> 01:44:01,250
You know, it's not significant. So it's

1219
01:44:01,250 --> 01:44:02,875
not available to the majority of people.

1220
01:44:03,291 --> 01:44:05,500
Majority of people in a country can't

1221
01:44:05,500 --> 01:44:06,958
find out who the owners of these fishing

1222
01:44:06,958 --> 01:44:08,666
vessels are that are fishing this

1223
01:44:08,666 --> 01:44:10,000
publicly owned resource.

1224
01:44:11,041 --> 01:44:12,958
And again, this doesn't say there aren't

1225
01:44:12,958 --> 01:44:15,208
great examples of where we're seeing

1226
01:44:15,208 --> 01:44:18,708
improvement. You know, obviously I tend

1227
01:44:18,708 --> 01:44:20,500
to focus on the worst examples because

1228
01:44:20,500 --> 01:44:21,958
that's why we're trying to

1229
01:44:21,958 --> 01:44:23,125
get the most improvement, right?

1230
01:44:23,500 --> 01:44:24,541
Right. Of course. Yeah. If you can get

1231
01:44:24,541 --> 01:44:25,666
the improvement for that, then you're

1232
01:44:25,666 --> 01:44:27,541
already increasing the level of

1233
01:44:27,541 --> 01:44:29,958
efficiency and protection. You know, this

1234
01:44:29,958 --> 01:44:31,541
is a big report. It's an

1235
01:44:31,541 --> 01:44:34,000
important report for my audience.

1236
01:44:34,041 --> 01:44:36,666
Like what were the big like policy

1237
01:44:36,666 --> 01:44:40,083
recommendations in this report and policy

1238
01:44:40,083 --> 01:44:44,333
brief? Yeah. So the main one is as I was

1239
01:44:44,333 --> 01:44:45,916
alluding to earlier about how do we try

1240
01:44:45,916 --> 01:44:49,958
and fix this is for flag states to a

1241
01:44:49,958 --> 01:44:52,291
collect beneficial ownership information.

1242
01:44:53,166 --> 01:44:55,250
Or at least, you know, this report we

1243
01:44:55,250 --> 01:44:57,000
focused on what we call the legal owners,

1244
01:44:57,000 --> 01:44:59,250
which is the corporations, the beneficial

1245
01:44:59,250 --> 01:45:01,750
owners are the usually the shareholders

1246
01:45:01,750 --> 01:45:03,875
that the humans at the top of that chain.

1247
01:45:04,500 --> 01:45:06,833
So it's for flag states to collect that

1248
01:45:06,833 --> 01:45:09,500
information, you know, when they license

1249
01:45:09,500 --> 01:45:11,833
a vessel or when they renew a license and

1250
01:45:11,833 --> 01:45:12,625
to ensure that

1251
01:45:12,625 --> 01:45:13,916
information is kept up to date.

1252
01:45:13,916 --> 01:45:15,791
As we said earlier, this this can change

1253
01:45:15,791 --> 01:45:18,958
so quickly. Right. So for flag states to

1254
01:45:18,958 --> 01:45:19,875
collect that and ideally

1255
01:45:19,875 --> 01:45:21,166
make that publicly available.

1256
01:45:22,041 --> 01:45:26,000
And for the companies themselves to

1257
01:45:26,000 --> 01:45:30,208
disclose to their their their their

1258
01:45:30,208 --> 01:45:32,500
states of incorporation. So that's where

1259
01:45:32,500 --> 01:45:33,541
those companies are based.

1260
01:45:34,500 --> 01:45:36,083
Those countries should be asking their

1261
01:45:36,083 --> 01:45:38,291
companies to tell them, like, what do you

1262
01:45:38,291 --> 01:45:40,500
own? You know, what what investments do

1263
01:45:40,500 --> 01:45:42,041
you have around the world? Because it'd

1264
01:45:42,041 --> 01:45:42,750
be good to know that.

1265
01:45:43,041 --> 01:45:46,083
We have to know if you know if we have a

1266
01:45:46,083 --> 01:45:48,750
citizen that's invested in fishing off of

1267
01:45:48,750 --> 01:45:51,166
Namibia or in the Pacific, you know,

1268
01:45:51,166 --> 01:45:52,416
Pacific Islands. Right.

1269
01:45:52,833 --> 01:45:55,333
And I think as well, one of the big

1270
01:45:55,333 --> 01:45:58,500
recommendations is just for there to be a

1271
01:45:58,500 --> 01:46:02,458
lot more effort in kind of sharing

1272
01:46:02,458 --> 01:46:04,000
information, understanding these systems.

1273
01:46:04,041 --> 01:46:06,333
You know, what do we know? What are you

1274
01:46:06,333 --> 01:46:07,750
doing in your authorities and your

1275
01:46:07,750 --> 01:46:10,000
enforcement agencies? Can you share that

1276
01:46:10,000 --> 01:46:11,750
with other enforcement agencies so that

1277
01:46:11,750 --> 01:46:13,625
we sort of everybody's

1278
01:46:13,625 --> 01:46:14,708
brought up to that standard?

1279
01:46:14,708 --> 01:46:17,083
Because we know the EU have one of the

1280
01:46:17,083 --> 01:46:21,000
most sophisticated systems for trying to

1281
01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:24,416
stop you in the world and still, you

1282
01:46:24,416 --> 01:46:25,583
know, they have to get it right 100

1283
01:46:25,583 --> 01:46:26,000
percent of the time.

1284
01:46:26,041 --> 01:46:27,875
The EU fishes only have to get it right

1285
01:46:27,875 --> 01:46:30,541
once. Right. Right. Right. Can they kind

1286
01:46:30,541 --> 01:46:32,708
of share this knowledge and training with

1287
01:46:32,708 --> 01:46:34,916
with other coastal states to try and

1288
01:46:34,916 --> 01:46:37,833
improve the overall system?

1289
01:46:38,958 --> 01:46:41,708
And then the final thing we kind of in

1290
01:46:41,708 --> 01:46:43,833
the report we suggested was around

1291
01:46:43,833 --> 01:46:47,375
ensuring that all large scale fishing

1292
01:46:47,375 --> 01:46:50,000
vessels have a unique identifying number.

1293
01:46:50,041 --> 01:46:53,041
So ideally, an IMO number. This is the

1294
01:46:53,041 --> 01:46:55,583
International Maritime Organization. And

1295
01:46:55,583 --> 01:46:58,500
and this is a number that's unique to a

1296
01:46:58,500 --> 01:47:00,333
fishing vessel, regardless of they

1297
01:47:00,333 --> 01:47:02,625
repaint it, rename it, reflag

1298
01:47:02,625 --> 01:47:03,875
it or the ownership changes.

1299
01:47:04,375 --> 01:47:08,000
It stays with that that fishing vessel in

1300
01:47:08,000 --> 01:47:10,500
the in the US and Canada and the UK are

1301
01:47:10,500 --> 01:47:13,166
the only place I've had cars. You know,

1302
01:47:13,166 --> 01:47:14,333
we have a VIN, right,

1303
01:47:14,791 --> 01:47:15,625
vehicle identification.

1304
01:47:16,041 --> 01:47:18,291
And it's like hammered into the chassis

1305
01:47:18,291 --> 01:47:20,375
of your car. So it'd be similar to that.

1306
01:47:20,375 --> 01:47:22,125
So regardless of what modifications and

1307
01:47:22,125 --> 01:47:24,000
what happens that boat, that boat is

1308
01:47:24,000 --> 01:47:25,750
identifiable throughout its lifetime.

1309
01:47:26,541 --> 01:47:28,750
And then connected to that in the IMO in

1310
01:47:28,750 --> 01:47:31,583
the IMO registry, you know, I think we

1311
01:47:31,583 --> 01:47:33,000
believe they should be then asking for

1312
01:47:33,000 --> 01:47:33,750
ownership information.

1313
01:47:34,666 --> 01:47:37,166
And of course, just with a car when you

1314
01:47:37,166 --> 01:47:40,708
know that VIN exchanges the pink slips,

1315
01:47:40,708 --> 01:47:42,958
you know, the ownership, you have to

1316
01:47:42,958 --> 01:47:44,666
report that, right? You just can't buy a

1317
01:47:44,666 --> 01:47:46,500
car and go driving it the next day. No.

1318
01:47:46,500 --> 01:47:47,958
But you can buy a fishing vessel and

1319
01:47:47,958 --> 01:47:50,083
start going, you know, fishing the next

1320
01:47:50,083 --> 01:47:51,625
day. Unreal. It's a little bit more

1321
01:47:51,625 --> 01:47:53,666
complicated than that. But simply that's

1322
01:47:53,666 --> 01:47:55,500
the way is like identify these fishing

1323
01:47:55,500 --> 01:47:56,791
vessels and have that

1324
01:47:56,791 --> 01:47:58,000
linked to ownership.

1325
01:47:58,041 --> 01:48:00,583
Absolutely. Absolutely. That's that's

1326
01:48:00,583 --> 01:48:03,125
yeah, that's that makes sense to me. All

1327
01:48:03,125 --> 01:48:04,666
of these. This makes sense to me,

1328
01:48:04,666 --> 01:48:07,000
obviously, not as easy to

1329
01:48:07,000 --> 01:48:08,833
implement as we we hope.

1330
01:48:09,041 --> 01:48:11,291
But hopefully we can get there with the

1331
01:48:11,291 --> 01:48:13,791
added pressure of, you know, reports like

1332
01:48:13,791 --> 01:48:15,916
these to say, hey, you know, this is

1333
01:48:15,916 --> 01:48:17,541
what's happening. You guys, we all need

1334
01:48:17,541 --> 01:48:19,416
to know about this. And we need to start

1335
01:48:19,416 --> 01:48:21,000
putting pressure on on people.

1336
01:48:21,041 --> 01:48:24,000
As a researcher, I'm curious, what was

1337
01:48:24,000 --> 01:48:27,833
the most surprising reveal that you have

1338
01:48:27,833 --> 01:48:31,000
come across when, you know, creating a

1339
01:48:31,000 --> 01:48:31,958
report like this or

1340
01:48:31,958 --> 01:48:33,750
contributing to a report like this?

1341
01:48:33,750 --> 01:48:36,916
Like for you, out of all of these items

1342
01:48:36,916 --> 01:48:38,208
that we discussed, what was the most

1343
01:48:38,208 --> 01:48:40,875
surprising for that for you,

1344
01:48:40,875 --> 01:48:42,291
like the that you uncovered?

1345
01:48:43,083 --> 01:48:44,583
Yeah, that's a really

1346
01:48:44,583 --> 01:48:45,000
good question, actually.

1347
01:48:45,041 --> 01:48:52,500
I think some of the surprises I thought

1348
01:48:52,500 --> 01:48:54,500
might happen, the surprise was maybe the

1349
01:48:54,500 --> 01:48:57,833
scale. So in terms of data gaps, you

1350
01:48:57,833 --> 01:48:58,666
know, we knew that

1351
01:48:58,666 --> 01:48:59,708
we're going to be data gaps.

1352
01:48:59,708 --> 01:49:01,083
Yeah, data was going to be patchy and

1353
01:49:01,083 --> 01:49:03,166
imperfect. I didn't know that would be

1354
01:49:03,166 --> 01:49:04,875
this level, you know, some of these

1355
01:49:04,875 --> 01:49:06,541
vessels that we were trying to identify

1356
01:49:06,541 --> 01:49:09,625
in the in the IMO registry didn't even

1357
01:49:09,625 --> 01:49:10,458
have like information

1358
01:49:10,458 --> 01:49:11,000
like the length of it.

1359
01:49:12,041 --> 01:49:14,500
You know, which like surely is quite a

1360
01:49:14,500 --> 01:49:16,291
standard piece of information. How big is

1361
01:49:16,291 --> 01:49:18,416
this boat was not available for all these

1362
01:49:18,416 --> 01:49:21,291
vessels and obviously the ownership

1363
01:49:21,291 --> 01:49:23,791
information being being missing for two

1364
01:49:23,791 --> 01:49:25,541
thirds of the fishing

1365
01:49:25,541 --> 01:49:26,000
fleet was quite surprising.

1366
01:49:27,041 --> 01:49:30,291
And there was a few, I think, surprises

1367
01:49:30,291 --> 01:49:34,250
that, you know, and of course, I work on

1368
01:49:34,250 --> 01:49:36,208
in session on global fisheries, but I,

1369
01:49:36,208 --> 01:49:37,666
you know, I can't have a knowledge of all

1370
01:49:37,666 --> 01:49:40,000
these different coastal states.

1371
01:49:40,291 --> 01:49:41,666
And there was a few surprises like

1372
01:49:41,666 --> 01:49:44,250
Argentina popping up as like having quite

1373
01:49:44,250 --> 01:49:45,666
high proportions of foreign

1374
01:49:45,666 --> 01:49:47,208
ownership of its fishing fleet.

1375
01:49:47,291 --> 01:49:49,041
And I assume I think that that would be

1376
01:49:49,041 --> 01:49:52,166
kind of a historical, you know, there was

1377
01:49:52,166 --> 01:49:52,750
a lot of Spanish

1378
01:49:52,750 --> 01:49:54,000
ownership, for example, there.

1379
01:49:54,625 --> 01:49:57,458
And I'm probably also access to some of

1380
01:49:57,458 --> 01:49:58,958
the fish stocks that are in that part of

1381
01:49:58,958 --> 01:50:00,416
the world for particular

1382
01:50:00,416 --> 01:50:01,750
companies and fishing fleets.

1383
01:50:02,500 --> 01:50:04,166
So there was a few surprises like that

1384
01:50:04,166 --> 01:50:06,083
that popped up and there was a few

1385
01:50:06,083 --> 01:50:08,291
individual cases. I quite liked looking

1386
01:50:08,291 --> 01:50:10,291
at individual vessels.

1387
01:50:10,541 --> 01:50:11,583
You know, of course, I love

1388
01:50:11,583 --> 01:50:13,416
this high level information.

1389
01:50:14,541 --> 01:50:16,750
But it says individual little stories of

1390
01:50:16,750 --> 01:50:18,708
like a vessel that's like registered

1391
01:50:18,708 --> 01:50:20,666
here, flagged their fishing here.

1392
01:50:21,041 --> 01:50:24,291
And we did an EU specific policy brief

1393
01:50:24,291 --> 01:50:26,333
that that went into a bit more detail on

1394
01:50:26,333 --> 01:50:27,375
these individual vessels.

1395
01:50:27,583 --> 01:50:29,708
We kind of made passports for them and

1396
01:50:29,708 --> 01:50:31,791
had all these stamps of where they'd

1397
01:50:31,791 --> 01:50:33,041
where they'd gone and fish

1398
01:50:33,041 --> 01:50:34,875
and how the ownership changed.

1399
01:50:34,875 --> 01:50:37,958
So I think they're the ones I find maybe

1400
01:50:37,958 --> 01:50:40,583
the most surprising is, you know, you're

1401
01:50:40,583 --> 01:50:43,500
finding links between, as I said, Europe,

1402
01:50:43,500 --> 01:50:45,000
Russia and the US and West Africa.

1403
01:50:45,041 --> 01:50:48,500
And it's just how does that happen? Like

1404
01:50:48,500 --> 01:50:51,083
how how these humans involved that have

1405
01:50:51,083 --> 01:50:52,458
these investments and

1406
01:50:52,458 --> 01:50:54,458
connections in all these places?

1407
01:50:54,916 --> 01:50:57,041
And, you know, we're just looking this

1408
01:50:57,041 --> 01:50:59,708
data, this kind of paper trail.

1409
01:51:00,750 --> 01:51:02,375
But obviously, these are all, you know,

1410
01:51:02,916 --> 01:51:05,125
deals or purchases and

1411
01:51:05,125 --> 01:51:06,375
exchanges that happened.

1412
01:51:06,666 --> 01:51:08,333
And yeah, I think I think they're the

1413
01:51:08,333 --> 01:51:09,625
ones that kind of surprised me the most

1414
01:51:09,625 --> 01:51:11,416
with those individual little stories that

1415
01:51:11,416 --> 01:51:12,000
I'd love to know more about.

1416
01:51:12,041 --> 01:51:14,166
Yeah, absolutely. Here's an interesting

1417
01:51:14,166 --> 01:51:16,833
idea. You know, they how they have like,

1418
01:51:17,000 --> 01:51:19,041
you know, you can you can track animals

1419
01:51:19,041 --> 01:51:20,666
that are tagged, you know, like fish or

1420
01:51:20,666 --> 01:51:22,208
sharks or whale sharks

1421
01:51:22,208 --> 01:51:23,958
and so forth on an app.

1422
01:51:24,500 --> 01:51:25,500
Imagine if you could track fishing

1423
01:51:25,500 --> 01:51:27,083
vessels, like individual fishing vessels

1424
01:51:27,083 --> 01:51:29,000
and it'd be like, oh, how are they all

1425
01:51:29,000 --> 01:51:30,291
the way in the Indian Ocean when they

1426
01:51:30,291 --> 01:51:32,250
started off in the Pacific or, you know,

1427
01:51:32,250 --> 01:51:34,333
be able to see and almost like it's it's

1428
01:51:34,333 --> 01:51:35,750
almost like highlighting them in a

1429
01:51:35,750 --> 01:51:37,375
surprising way, but a more transparent

1430
01:51:37,375 --> 01:51:38,958
way where people can actually see where

1431
01:51:38,958 --> 01:51:41,041
these fishing vessels go and where they unload and think they're going to be able to see where they're going.

1432
01:51:42,041 --> 01:51:42,250
So, yeah, I think, you know, if you
could just take a look at the

1433
01:51:42,250 --> 01:51:42,708
show and see what you can do, you know, if you can just talk about what you have, you know, a lot of things like that. That

1434
01:51:42,708 --> 01:51:44,875
would be, I feel like an interesting app

1435
01:51:44,875 --> 01:51:46,416
that might highlight some of the

1436
01:51:46,416 --> 01:51:48,333
nefarious ongoings of some of these

1437
01:51:48,333 --> 01:51:50,125
vessels and what they're up to.

1438
01:51:50,416 --> 01:51:52,416
And they probably wouldn't like that app

1439
01:51:52,416 --> 01:51:54,083
very much, but I think that would be

1440
01:51:54,083 --> 01:51:56,833
interesting for organizations such as

1441
01:51:56,833 --> 01:51:58,583
Oceana and even individuals like me just

1442
01:51:58,583 --> 01:52:00,333
to be able to like, oh, this is weird,

1443
01:52:00,333 --> 01:52:01,916
like I'm trying individual vessel.

1444
01:52:10,041 --> 01:52:12,708
of fish and watch. Increasingly, we can

1445
01:52:12,708 --> 01:52:13,916
we can map more vessels

1446
01:52:13,916 --> 01:52:15,416
still, still by no means

1447
01:52:15,416 --> 01:52:17,833
all of these vessels. And as there's

1448
01:52:17,833 --> 01:52:18,958
really cool research time

1449
01:52:18,958 --> 01:52:19,958
to look at that now, like

1450
01:52:20,000 --> 01:52:22,833
the behaviors of them. And, you know, one

1451
01:52:22,833 --> 01:52:23,500
of my colleagues,

1452
01:52:24,000 --> 01:52:25,250
Keiko Nomura looked at how

1453
01:52:26,250 --> 01:52:28,708
different fleets interact or potentially

1454
01:52:28,708 --> 01:52:30,333
avoid each other. You

1455
01:52:30,333 --> 01:52:31,333
know, there can be kind of

1456
01:52:31,333 --> 01:52:34,250
this, especially for tuna stocks, you

1457
01:52:34,250 --> 01:52:34,833
know, there can be a

1458
01:52:34,833 --> 01:52:36,291
collaboration once you find

1459
01:52:36,375 --> 01:52:38,291
the schools between different fleets.

1460
01:52:38,916 --> 01:52:39,500
Maybe they have the

1461
01:52:39,500 --> 01:52:40,750
same owners, we don't know.

1462
01:52:41,000 --> 01:52:42,833
And then others would fish in completely

1463
01:52:42,833 --> 01:52:43,791
different areas, like

1464
01:52:43,791 --> 01:52:46,000
almost like this avoidance. And

1465
01:52:46,000 --> 01:52:47,791
similarly, with with fishing in the high

1466
01:52:47,791 --> 01:52:48,875
seas and these different

1467
01:52:48,875 --> 01:52:50,625
systems that are out there,

1468
01:52:51,000 --> 01:52:52,375
you know, we're learning more and more

1469
01:52:52,375 --> 01:52:53,416
that the high seas isn't

1470
01:52:53,416 --> 01:52:55,083
just this, you know, blank

1471
01:52:55,125 --> 01:52:57,541
homogenous desert, but has these kind of

1472
01:52:57,541 --> 01:53:01,416
networks of systems and underwater

1473
01:53:01,416 --> 01:53:02,958
mountains and seeing

1474
01:53:03,000 --> 01:53:04,958
how these different vessels, you know,

1475
01:53:04,958 --> 01:53:06,541
time it so they all arrive at the same

1476
01:53:06,541 --> 01:53:08,458
time. Yeah, I think

1477
01:53:08,458 --> 01:53:10,291
this is a really exciting,

1478
01:53:11,041 --> 01:53:13,500
you know, area of research at the moment.

1479
01:53:14,083 --> 01:53:17,458
Yeah, absolutely. This is this has been

1480
01:53:17,458 --> 01:53:21,083
wonderful. My last question that I give

1481
01:53:21,375 --> 01:53:23,666
people when I interview, especially on

1482
01:53:23,666 --> 01:53:26,166
things like reports like these, my

1483
01:53:26,166 --> 01:53:27,125
audience is very

1484
01:53:27,125 --> 01:53:30,000
motivated to help, you know, they

1485
01:53:30,041 --> 01:53:32,166
want to help, sometimes they feel a

1486
01:53:32,166 --> 01:53:34,833
little bit out of touch in terms of how

1487
01:53:34,833 --> 01:53:35,791
they can help. This is

1488
01:53:35,791 --> 01:53:37,125
a big deal. This is a

1489
01:53:37,125 --> 01:53:40,750
huge, huge undertaking that that you and

1490
01:53:40,750 --> 01:53:44,166
your colleagues have have done. How can

1491
01:53:44,166 --> 01:53:46,000
individuals help when they listen to this

1492
01:53:46,000 --> 01:53:47,250
podcast, or probably like, man, this

1493
01:53:47,250 --> 01:53:49,041
sucks, like all this stuff is happening.

1494
01:53:49,625 --> 01:53:50,208
There's a lot of

1495
01:53:50,208 --> 01:53:50,833
problems, you know, there

1496
01:53:50,833 --> 01:53:52,375
are people who are working on it, but

1497
01:53:52,375 --> 01:53:55,041
it's like they feel a little helpless,

1498
01:53:55,041 --> 01:53:56,333
you know, and they

1499
01:53:56,333 --> 01:53:57,166
want it, they want to do

1500
01:53:57,208 --> 01:54:00,083
more. So from an individual standpoint,

1501
01:54:00,291 --> 01:54:02,750
how would you recommend people what what

1502
01:54:02,750 --> 01:54:04,000
actions people can take

1503
01:54:04,000 --> 01:54:05,916
to to help in this area?

1504
01:54:07,250 --> 01:54:09,500
Yeah, it's a great question. And, you

1505
01:54:09,500 --> 01:54:12,083
know, I asked myself a lot as well, even

1506
01:54:12,083 --> 01:54:13,041
just about, you know, what

1507
01:54:13,041 --> 01:54:14,583
can I do more than, you know,

1508
01:54:14,916 --> 01:54:16,583
sometimes publishing a report can feel

1509
01:54:16,583 --> 01:54:19,666
great, but what more can I do? And I

1510
01:54:19,666 --> 01:54:21,833
think if there's a campaign, you know,

1511
01:54:21,833 --> 01:54:22,541
especially if you're in a

1512
01:54:22,583 --> 01:54:24,625
country that, you know, is a flag of

1513
01:54:24,625 --> 01:54:26,291
convenience or has a huge fishing

1514
01:54:26,291 --> 01:54:28,208
industry, you know, trying to support

1515
01:54:28,208 --> 01:54:31,000
campaigns that are pushing for, for more

1516
01:54:31,000 --> 01:54:32,875
transparency or, you know, or better

1517
01:54:32,875 --> 01:54:34,958
regulation of these fisheries, whether

1518
01:54:34,958 --> 01:54:36,541
that's, you know, industry

1519
01:54:36,541 --> 01:54:39,041
led, you know, by these kind of

1520
01:54:39,333 --> 01:54:40,958
fishing corporations or small scale

1521
01:54:40,958 --> 01:54:43,625
fishers or different industry bodies, or

1522
01:54:43,625 --> 01:54:46,916
whether it's led by NGOs or, or, you

1523
01:54:46,916 --> 01:54:48,291
know, groups, I would say

1524
01:54:48,375 --> 01:54:50,208
try and support that they're often trying

1525
01:54:50,208 --> 01:54:52,625
to get people to add their names to

1526
01:54:52,625 --> 01:54:54,833
petitions and send emails and stuff like

1527
01:54:54,833 --> 01:54:56,625
that. And I think for me,

1528
01:54:56,750 --> 01:54:58,208
fundamentally, that's the biggest part

1529
01:54:58,208 --> 01:55:00,000
is, you know, these emails and petitions,

1530
01:55:00,291 --> 01:55:02,416
ultimately, as they're being sent to the

1531
01:55:02,416 --> 01:55:03,291
politicians, right,

1532
01:55:03,291 --> 01:55:06,416
is, you know, is in your

1533
01:55:06,458 --> 01:55:08,041
political power, it feels often,

1534
01:55:08,500 --> 01:55:10,375
increasingly, in fact, that we have very

1535
01:55:10,375 --> 01:55:13,458
little of it. But what little we do, you

1536
01:55:13,458 --> 01:55:16,625
know, we can put to, you know, to

1537
01:55:16,625 --> 01:55:17,458
candidates that maybe

1538
01:55:18,000 --> 01:55:19,541
think about these issues and particularly

1539
01:55:19,541 --> 01:55:22,958
environmental issues. And I think that's,

1540
01:55:22,958 --> 01:55:24,750
that's a really strong way to, to be able

1541
01:55:24,750 --> 01:55:26,625
to support these causes,

1542
01:55:26,625 --> 01:55:29,166
which hopefully that's, that's

1543
01:55:29,166 --> 01:55:30,875
encouraging. And it's just all right.

1544
01:55:31,500 --> 01:55:33,791
Well, vote and vote and write emails. But

1545
01:55:33,833 --> 01:55:35,625
well, I'll tell you, I mean, it makes a

1546
01:55:35,625 --> 01:55:39,083
difference. I mean, we have listenership

1547
01:55:39,083 --> 01:55:41,875
in over 150 different countries, you

1548
01:55:41,875 --> 01:55:43,833
know, it's not just the UK, it's not just

1549
01:55:43,833 --> 01:55:45,625
Canada, it's not the US, it's not just

1550
01:55:45,625 --> 01:55:47,333
Australia or India, Brazil or

1551
01:55:47,333 --> 01:55:49,166
Argentina, as we mentioned, it's all

1552
01:55:49,166 --> 01:55:51,666
these different countries. And if we have

1553
01:55:51,666 --> 01:55:53,750
people that are listening to this in a

1554
01:55:53,750 --> 01:55:56,250
variety of different countries, then

1555
01:55:56,250 --> 01:55:58,791
maybe if we all start talking to our

1556
01:55:58,791 --> 01:56:00,958
representatives on a regular basis and

1557
01:56:00,958 --> 01:56:02,333
get to know them and build relationships,

1558
01:56:02,583 --> 01:56:03,875
like it's not just a matter of just

1559
01:56:03,875 --> 01:56:05,750
writing to I feel like it's a matter of

1560
01:56:05,750 --> 01:56:08,375
like, really getting to know and having

1561
01:56:08,375 --> 01:56:11,666
those those representatives get to know

1562
01:56:11,666 --> 01:56:15,166
you. And what's important to you, it

1563
01:56:15,166 --> 01:56:17,000
could just be it may be environmental

1564
01:56:17,000 --> 01:56:19,791
might be for different aspects of what's

1565
01:56:19,791 --> 01:56:21,041
important to you, but really

1566
01:56:21,041 --> 01:56:22,791
understanding that relationship between

1567
01:56:22,791 --> 01:56:25,125
us and our government representatives and

1568
01:56:25,125 --> 01:56:27,208
getting to know them, whoever they are,

1569
01:56:27,208 --> 01:56:29,000
whatever side of the aisle they they're

1570
01:56:29,000 --> 01:56:31,916
on is to is a big is a big thing.

1571
01:56:31,958 --> 01:56:33,875
And probably a podcast episode in and of

1572
01:56:33,875 --> 01:56:35,833
itself, or series of them in and of

1573
01:56:35,833 --> 01:56:37,875
itself to get to know but you know, the

1574
01:56:37,875 --> 01:56:39,250
work that you and your colleagues are

1575
01:56:39,250 --> 01:56:42,291
doing, then I think is imperative, we

1576
01:56:42,291 --> 01:56:44,375
need this information. This information

1577
01:56:44,375 --> 01:56:46,625
is not found regularly, as you mentioned,

1578
01:56:46,625 --> 01:56:49,000
it's difficult to track down, even

1579
01:56:49,000 --> 01:56:51,208
finding out the length of certain boats

1580
01:56:51,208 --> 01:56:52,750
is difficult, which is like you would

1581
01:56:52,750 --> 01:56:55,000
think would be common information, the

1582
01:56:55,000 --> 01:56:56,500
first information that they would put in

1583
01:56:56,500 --> 01:56:58,750
and and sometimes it's just not. And so

1584
01:56:58,750 --> 01:57:00,208
we appreciate all the

1585
01:57:00,208 --> 01:57:01,125
work that you've done.

1586
01:57:01,333 --> 01:57:02,375
And I think that's important, not only

1587
01:57:02,375 --> 01:57:04,666
for this report, but in the past and

1588
01:57:04,666 --> 01:57:07,958
research into this type of of aspect of

1589
01:57:07,958 --> 01:57:09,750
fisheries. It's very important. And we

1590
01:57:09,750 --> 01:57:11,166
really appreciate you coming on and

1591
01:57:11,166 --> 01:57:13,333
sharing all this information with us so

1592
01:57:13,333 --> 01:57:15,708
that we can have more knowledge to live

1593
01:57:15,708 --> 01:57:17,250
for better ocean. So we appreciate your

1594
01:57:17,250 --> 01:57:18,541
work. And we'd love to have you back on

1595
01:57:18,541 --> 01:57:20,208
some time and talk about updates and

1596
01:57:20,208 --> 01:57:22,666
hopefully seeing some progress in some

1597
01:57:22,666 --> 01:57:25,208
changes that countries have made in the

1598
01:57:25,208 --> 01:57:26,500
way they they track

1599
01:57:26,500 --> 01:57:27,583
their fishing vessels.

1600
01:57:28,708 --> 01:57:29,916
Thank you very much for having me on

1601
01:57:29,916 --> 01:57:31,458
this. You know, I love talking about this

1602
01:57:31,458 --> 01:57:34,625
stuff. And so happy to find a fellow

1603
01:57:34,625 --> 01:57:36,416
person to talk and an audience who are

1604
01:57:36,416 --> 01:57:39,500
keen to listen. Absolutely. Wonderful.

1605
01:57:40,083 --> 01:57:41,416
Thank you so much. We appreciate it.

1606
01:57:41,666 --> 01:57:43,083
Cheers, Andre. Thank you, Dan, for

1607
01:57:43,083 --> 01:57:44,791
joining us on today's episode of the How

1608
01:57:44,791 --> 01:57:46,208
to Protect the Ocean podcast was great to

1609
01:57:46,208 --> 01:57:47,791
have you on. It was great to be able to

1610
01:57:47,791 --> 01:57:49,833
try and detangle some of the complexities

1611
01:57:49,833 --> 01:57:52,541
of global fishing vessels and just what

1612
01:57:52,541 --> 01:57:54,041
they can get away with. It's surprising

1613
01:57:54,041 --> 01:57:55,875
about what they can get away with.

1614
01:57:55,875 --> 01:57:57,375
And surprising that a lot of this has

1615
01:57:57,375 --> 01:57:59,583
gone on for a long time. What always

1616
01:57:59,583 --> 01:58:01,583
surprises me is when you try and track

1617
01:58:01,583 --> 01:58:04,250
down who owns a fishing vessel is just

1618
01:58:04,250 --> 01:58:06,041
like a web. It just goes all over. You

1619
01:58:06,041 --> 01:58:07,666
can be pinged all over around the world

1620
01:58:07,666 --> 01:58:09,583
looking at shell companies and then, you

1621
01:58:09,583 --> 01:58:11,208
know, depending on where they're from or

1622
01:58:11,208 --> 01:58:12,916
how it goes at one shell company to

1623
01:58:12,916 --> 01:58:13,708
another to another to

1624
01:58:13,708 --> 01:58:14,666
another all over the world.

1625
01:58:14,666 --> 01:58:16,500
And it's really interesting to me and

1626
01:58:16,500 --> 01:58:18,500
surprising how people can get away with

1627
01:58:18,500 --> 01:58:20,750
this for so long. Hopefully this report

1628
01:58:20,750 --> 01:58:23,125
helps detangle this and a system is in

1629
01:58:23,125 --> 01:58:26,083
place to track how vessels are owned and

1630
01:58:26,083 --> 01:58:28,041
who owns these vessels right to the

1631
01:58:28,041 --> 01:58:28,916
actual company that

1632
01:58:28,916 --> 01:58:30,125
makes the revenue from this.

1633
01:58:30,458 --> 01:58:31,958
And let's be honest, the fishing fleets

1634
01:58:31,958 --> 01:58:33,541
that are doing illegal things. It's the

1635
01:58:33,541 --> 01:58:35,500
crew that pays the price, but the

1636
01:58:35,500 --> 01:58:38,250
companies rarely do. And that's a shame.

1637
01:58:38,250 --> 01:58:40,041
And that should not happen again. So we

1638
01:58:40,041 --> 01:58:42,541
are going to continue to talk about this

1639
01:58:42,541 --> 01:58:44,291
in the future. But this episode really

1640
01:58:44,291 --> 01:58:46,208
highlights a lot of the issues that are

1641
01:58:46,208 --> 01:58:48,083
around and what can be done as

1642
01:58:48,083 --> 01:58:50,583
recommendations to help get

1643
01:58:50,583 --> 01:58:52,125
rid of this whole problem.

1644
01:58:52,583 --> 01:58:54,291
And so I want to thank Dan again for

1645
01:58:54,291 --> 01:58:55,750
joining us. We're going to put links to

1646
01:58:55,750 --> 01:58:57,833
Oceana's report in the show notes so you

1647
01:58:57,833 --> 01:58:59,916
can get access to that. If this is your

1648
01:58:59,916 --> 01:59:01,083
first time listening to the episode, I'd

1649
01:59:01,083 --> 01:59:03,125
love for you to subscribe. Follow however

1650
01:59:03,125 --> 01:59:04,416
you do, whether you're watching this on

1651
01:59:04,416 --> 01:59:05,583
YouTube or listening to this on your

1652
01:59:05,583 --> 01:59:07,416
favorite podcast app. But I want to thank

1653
01:59:07,416 --> 01:59:08,750
Dan for joining us and I want to thank

1654
01:59:08,750 --> 01:59:10,875
you for listening. I really do appreciate

1655
01:59:10,875 --> 01:59:12,541
all the support that you've given this

1656
01:59:12,541 --> 01:59:14,125
podcast. We're getting a lot of views.

1657
01:59:14,125 --> 01:59:15,416
We're getting a lot of downloads. We're

1658
01:59:15,416 --> 01:59:16,583
getting a lot of listens. We're getting a

1659
01:59:16,583 --> 01:59:18,333
lot of comments and engagement. It's

1660
01:59:18,333 --> 01:59:19,791
always great. And if you want to connect

1661
01:59:19,791 --> 01:59:20,833
with me, you can do so on

1662
01:59:20,833 --> 01:59:21,166
Instagram at howdepro.com.

1663
01:59:28,833 --> 01:59:32,291
And I'll try to answer as soon as I can.

1664
01:59:32,541 --> 01:59:33,833
I want to thank you so much for joining

1665
01:59:33,833 --> 01:59:35,333
me on today's episode of the how to

1666
01:59:35,333 --> 01:59:36,833
protect the ocean podcast. I'm your host

1667
01:59:36,833 --> 01:59:38,708
Andrew Lewin from the true North strong

1668
01:59:38,708 --> 01:59:40,250
and free. Have a great day. We'll talk to

1669
01:59:40,250 --> 01:59:41,875
you next time and happy conservation.