Oceana Working to Protect Endangered Species: How Legal Action Safeguards Whales and Sea Turtles

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A beach goer sees a humpback whale breach
off the coast, unaware it's a species.

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Once on the brink beneath the surface,
sea turtles struggled to survive

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fishing nets and warming oceans.

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Tara Brock, an environmental lawyer
with Oceania, works behind the

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scenes to defend these species.

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The Endangered Species Act is a decades
old, but still powerful law that gives

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threatened species a fighting chance.

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Legal decisions influence whether
whales, dodge ship strikes or

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sea turtles escape by cash.

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ESA enforcement has led to real change
like gear modifications that saved.

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Thousands of sea turtles.

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Some protections are under attack.

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Loopholes are widening
and enforcement is uneven.

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Oceania uses litigation science and public
pressure to push for accountability.

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Listeners can support policy changes,
urge better industry practices, and

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speak out for species without a voice.

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Every hatchling that makes
it to the sea and every whale

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breaching free is a reminder that
the law can work if we use it.

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We're gonna be talking about the
Endangered Species Act and how

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important it is to preserving this
specific species on this episode of

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the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody.

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Welcome back to another exciting episode
of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this
is the podcast where you find out

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what's happening with the ocean, how
you could speak up for the ocean,

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and what you could do to live for
a better ocean by taking action.

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And on today's episode, we're
gonna be speaking to Tara Brock.

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She is an environmental lawyer for
Oceania, and she is here to talk

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about the Endangered Species Act
and how it can be used as a tool to

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protect species that are a little
bit more vulnerable than we think.

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And the conservation story is a successful
conservation story that have come.

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From enacting this law and following this
law, it's going to be a great episode.

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I can't wait for you to listen, but before
we do, I wanted to talk to you about

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something that's really important to
me and I think really important to you.

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Do you want to learn how to
conserve the ocean better?

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Do you want to protect it?

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This is something that's really been
of interest for me for a long time.

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Something to go beyond just this
podcast and to help guide you to,

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you know, live for a better ocean.

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I want you to join The Undertow.

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It's a new company that I'm the
co-founder of with two amazing

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women, Serena and Amanda.

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We are starting a digital app.

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We are creating it.

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We are in the process of creating it,
and we're almost there to launch it.

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We want you to be a part of it.

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We want you to learn about wave makers
who are really, you know, breaking

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ceilings and looking to protect the
ocean a little bit more, may not

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have the support all the time there.

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And we provide an infrastructure in
there for you to be able to not only

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listen to their mission, but help
them in getting closer to protecting

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the ocean as well as yourself.

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So it's a lot of fun.

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We want you to join.

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All you have to do is go to speak
up for blue.com/join the undertow.

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That's speak up for blue.com/join
the undertow, all one word, and

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get on the waiting list to get in.

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We're almost ready to launch that app.

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Let's get into the interview with Tara
Brock, environmental lawyer for Oceana.

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I can't wait for you to listen.

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Here's the interview.

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Enjoy and I'll talk to you after.

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Hey Tara, welcome to the How
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about
the Endangered Species Act?

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Yes, I am excited to talk about
the Endangered Species Act and its

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importance for conserving species.

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It's funny, you know, when when
we talk about getting excited for

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something, it's not often that we
get excited to talk about a piece of

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legislation that's really, you know,
that's obviously really important.

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We're getting into why it's so
important, but it's something, it's

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something that always makes me laugh.

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It's like we're gonna talk
about like legislation.

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Everybody's like, yay, because it's.

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You know, this is something, endangered
Species Act is something that is all,

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like every country seems to have one.

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Like in Canada, we have one where I'm
from, and then obviously the US has one

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federally, and then we also have them,
you know, in states and in provinces.

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They play a very, you know,
important role in conservation.

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But we don't really talk a lot
about them, but we, we hear about.

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The, you know, this, this type of
legislation, sometimes in a good

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way, but oftentimes in a bad way, uh,
because of the types of animals that

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are there and the level of, of, I guess,
where they are in terms of extinction

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or protection and, and what, and how
much information they need or how

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much protection they actually need.

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So it's, it's a very important
legislation, but I always

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just find it funny how.

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We get excited to talk about legislation,
but you are a lawyer and so this is

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what you like to talk about and so do
I, and so this is gonna be a lot of fun.

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But before we get into talking about
the Endangered Species Act, Tara,

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let's get to know you a little bit.

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Why don't you to let the audience
know who you are and what you do.

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Well, yeah, thanks again for having me.

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Definitely get excited in
talking about conservation laws.

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So this is, I'm excited to be here.

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Um, my name's Tara Brock.

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I am Pacific Legal Director
and Senior counsel at Oceana.

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So my job entails working on all
manner of ocean conservation issues

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off the West coast in Alaska.

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We work on responsible fisheries
management, reducing plastic pollution

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in the ocean conserving species, um, and
really just making sure that the oceans

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remain a really healthy place because
of their importance to life on earth.

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It is a tall order, you know, to,
to protect the oceans, especially

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from the, from, from the courts
or from a legislative perspective

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and a law and a law perspective.

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Uh, how did this all come about
in terms of becoming a lawyer?

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When did you start to think, this
is what I want to do, you know,

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when I, when I grow up and, and did
you always think that this is where

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you're gonna end up in environmental
law and protecting the ocean?

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Oh, that's a great question.

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I, I definitely do not have a
linear path, I think, to this work.

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I was actually an art major in undergrad.

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And I worked with a lot
of different materials.

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I liked collecting materials.

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I worked with a lot of trash, frankly, to
make my pieces interesting, and that led

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me to working with our local recycling
facility and collecting a lot of the

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plastics from there, and learning that
plastic bottle caps weren't recycled at

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the time, and just seeing the mountains of
waste that was coming into that facility.

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Some that was getting recycled, some
that wasn't, and researching all of that.

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And it was right at the time that
Captain Charles Moore with the Alita

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Foundation was discovering the Great
Pacific Gyre, which perhaps some of

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your listeners have heard about, but
a floating mass of plastics out in the

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ocean, most of them tiny particles.

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And so that was just coming
into the public's forefront.

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And so my art.

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Started to sort of reflect some of
that and become more of education

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about what was going on in our
oceans and environment and how our

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waste was contributing to that.

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And so I picked up an environmental
minor while I was at school,

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and the rest is history.

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I got hooked in environmental advocacy
working with Environment Michigan.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, and then found my way out to
the West coast for law school at

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Lewis and Clark, one of the best
environmental law schools in the country.

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And.

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Once I saw the Oregon coast,
I was definitely hooked on, on

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helping, protect and do ocean law.

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It is absolutely, um,
magnificent out here.

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The West coast really is beautiful.

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It well, absolutely it is.

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That's my, my non-linear path
towards, uh, becoming a lawyer and,

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uh, diving into ocean conservation.

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I, I mean, I love that, you know, a lot
of the, something that I've discovered,

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'cause I ask all my guests, you know,
how did they get to where they got?

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And one of the things that I've
realized fairly quickly is that.

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It's never a linear path,
you know, very rarely.

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You know, sometimes it is, but very
rarely is, is it a linear path of

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where they got, like where they
started to where they wanted to go,

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and then they got there that way.

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And just a straight, straight line.

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It's always meandering and, and
I feel like that is part of how

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they got to where they go is the
experiences that they pick up.

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For you, Tara, it sounds like it was, you
know, as you were, as you were, you know,

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making these pieces out of, out of trash.

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And you start to realize in the
recycling industry, it's not what it is.

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It was advertised as a lot of
things weren't getting recycled.

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And then you start to realize,
well, hold on a second here.

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What, what can I do?

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Uh, when you mentioned that you took, you
picked up, uh, an environmental minor.

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Was that like an environmental science
minor or was it more, uh, like, like in

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the advocacy, uh, public affairs domain?

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How, how did that work?

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Uh, that's a great question because it
was actually called a Global change minor,

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which was really new program at the time,
at the University of Michigan, and it was

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through the School of Natural Resources.

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But it focused both on how
the earth changes naturally.

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Mm-hmm.

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And how humans are impacting that.

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So we studied population demographics,
but also natural processes.

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But it wasn't strictly like an
environmental science, um, uh, minor.

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It was definitely involved a lot bigger
picture on how the earth was changing

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and how humans were impacting that.

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And so I feel very lucky that I
was able to, to partake in that.

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I think it was only the first or second
year they were offering it at the time.

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Yeah.

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Um, and really cool, uh, program
to be able to, I can imagine.

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I mean that, I feel like everybody
should have to go through a program like

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that just to really fully understand
what, you know, what, how, what

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influence we have on the planet and
how we're, we're changing the planet.

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That obviously kickstarted an
interesting career for you, you

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know, in, in environmental advocacy.

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When you get outta school, what
makes, like, where did you head first?

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Like, what makes you go from school and
doing like, you know, obviously fine arts,

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which you could have gone into the, the,
the art direct, like the direction of

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art with, you know, ocean conservation or
conservation in general, or you know, you

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went the environmental advocacy route.

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What was like your first step and did
you really fully understand where you

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wanted to go after that at that point?

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Well, that's, uh, you know,
I don't know that I fully

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understood where I wanted to go.

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I graduated law school in 2011,
which was not the best time

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to graduate from law school.

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Right.

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Jobs were scarce.

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Yep.

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And so I was applying everywhere.

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I did not have a job when I came.

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Outta law school, but during
law school I had volunteered

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with a lot of organizations
including Surf Rider Foundation.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, which works to protect
oceans, waves, and beaches.

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Focus a lot on recreational users.

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And it was such a great experience
and it's really where I feel like

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I, I cut my teeth and organizing and
advocacy and how people and people's

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voices can be used to change policy
and change impact on the ground.

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And so I kept volunteering.

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I kept, uh, putting myself
out there and showing up.

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I worked for a strategic consulting firm
for a while, helping other nonprofits

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be successful in their campaigns.

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And over time, I, um, ended up
working at the Pew Charitable Trust

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and working on fisheries, uh, policy.

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And so that's sort of the, the not linear,
again, path that I came out of law school.

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So it was, um.

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It was a great experience, honestly.

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Yeah.

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Having and volunteering, you know,
I think that that's a great way to

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get involved and to learn things,
um, that you're not an expert in.

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I don't have a marine biology degree.

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I don't, um, you know,
have that background.

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But learning by doing and learning by
listening to others was just so valuable.

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Not only having the legal side
of things from my education,

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but really learning that.

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Advocacy toolkit from, from Surf Rider
and others, um, and how to run campaigns.

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Absolutely.

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I mean, you seem to have received a
lot of experience, uh, over a wide

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variety of, of, of types of campaigns,
not only from a notion perspective,

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but a recreational perspective.

228
00:11:49,670 --> 00:11:53,990
And then working with, you know, a, a
plethora of nonprofit organizations,

229
00:11:53,990 --> 00:11:58,610
I'm sure you know, across the
gambit of, of running campaigns.

230
00:11:59,085 --> 00:12:02,025
Let me ask you this because I
find this is always interesting.

231
00:12:02,025 --> 00:12:06,225
You come from a very creative
background doing a degree in fine arts.

232
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How has that helped you in adapting to
the, the different types of campaigns and

233
00:12:13,215 --> 00:12:16,575
the different types of what seems to be
subject matters that come up and topics

234
00:12:16,575 --> 00:12:18,405
that come up that you are able to cover?

235
00:12:18,675 --> 00:12:21,735
Do you find that having that
creative background allows you that.

236
00:12:22,050 --> 00:12:25,860
That wiggle room or that that space
to, to be able to think out of the

237
00:12:25,860 --> 00:12:28,380
box and, and bring that to the table.

238
00:12:28,590 --> 00:12:30,315
Uh, when you run these types of campaigns.

239
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:32,670
Absolutely.

240
00:12:32,730 --> 00:12:38,580
I always say that having a creative
mindset, being open-minded and thinking

241
00:12:38,580 --> 00:12:43,080
really out of the box sometimes is
the best way to approach something.

242
00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,700
You know, we, we can be very linear in
our goals and our policy objectives,

243
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,420
and without thinking about maybe
who else should be at the table.

244
00:12:51,780 --> 00:12:54,930
Or what other constituency
might care about this?

245
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,400
And really thinking about other
tactics and frankly, using art

246
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,350
in, in a way to educate people.

247
00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:04,110
Um, there's a great organization
called Wash to Shore.

248
00:13:04,290 --> 00:13:04,380
Mm-hmm.

249
00:13:04,380 --> 00:13:05,550
Here in Oregon.

250
00:13:05,550 --> 00:13:09,750
Based here in Oregon that makes these
amazing sculptures out of marine debris

251
00:13:09,810 --> 00:13:11,880
or trash that they find on the beach.

252
00:13:12,210 --> 00:13:13,440
And they're gorgeous.

253
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,900
I mean, and you just don't
even realize that that is all

254
00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:18,090
stuff collected from the ocean.

255
00:13:18,170 --> 00:13:23,689
Such a good adv adv advocacy tool
to educate the public about this

256
00:13:23,689 --> 00:13:27,740
problem of plastics in the ocean
and, and connecting for people,

257
00:13:27,770 --> 00:13:29,180
making that connection for people.

258
00:13:29,180 --> 00:13:32,750
So absolutely being creative
and having that creative mindset

259
00:13:32,750 --> 00:13:34,819
is so beneficial to this work.

260
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:40,310
And thinking creatively about how we might
frame a policy or even draft a policy to

261
00:13:40,310 --> 00:13:45,079
get the outcome we want, um, while still
considering other, you know, other needs.

262
00:13:45,079 --> 00:13:48,585
And so I definitely think
it's, uh, it's helpful.

263
00:13:49,065 --> 00:13:49,905
I can imagine.

264
00:13:50,145 --> 00:13:54,405
I you, when you mentioned the, the, the
art of from trash, it, it reminded me

265
00:13:54,405 --> 00:13:58,335
at out Toronto Zoo here, uh, there was
a display and I, I feel like was the

266
00:13:58,335 --> 00:14:02,985
soro may have built the, the displays,
but it was this massive polar bear,

267
00:14:03,165 --> 00:14:05,805
like lifesize polar bear made of trash.

268
00:14:05,895 --> 00:14:07,485
And when you look at it,
you, you were in awe.

269
00:14:07,515 --> 00:14:08,685
You're like, wow, this is really cool.

270
00:14:08,685 --> 00:14:11,025
Like this is huge and it
looks like a polar bear.

271
00:14:11,445 --> 00:14:13,725
Uh, you know, it's got the same
kind of features, and then as you

272
00:14:13,725 --> 00:14:17,925
get closer and closer you realize
these are everyday trash materials.

273
00:14:17,925 --> 00:14:20,730
That, and, and what we think is
recycled materials that we expect.

274
00:14:21,495 --> 00:14:25,185
Gets recycled or gets disposed of
appropriately, but are found in the

275
00:14:25,185 --> 00:14:27,525
ocean or are found in our landscapes.

276
00:14:27,615 --> 00:14:31,305
And you realize like, oh my gosh, like
I use a lot of these materials and

277
00:14:31,574 --> 00:14:33,314
this is what this animal's made of.

278
00:14:33,314 --> 00:14:36,645
And you're like, this is a lot of
material to make this massive, you

279
00:14:36,645 --> 00:14:38,204
know, animal like lifesize animal.

280
00:14:38,204 --> 00:14:40,574
And it, and it, it makes you
think, you know, and in terms

281
00:14:40,574 --> 00:14:41,010
of that, and I find that.

282
00:14:41,540 --> 00:14:45,439
Art plays such an important role
in that, in, uh, in conservation.

283
00:14:45,439 --> 00:14:49,370
I don't think we realize it when we, when
we see it, but if you sit back and think

284
00:14:49,370 --> 00:14:51,020
about it, it's, it's really interesting.

285
00:14:51,319 --> 00:14:56,030
Um, and so when you, when you get
to Oceania, um, you know, you get to

286
00:14:56,030 --> 00:14:59,480
it in, I think it was 2019 when you,
when you, when you started there.

287
00:14:59,750 --> 00:15:00,079
Um.

288
00:15:01,125 --> 00:15:02,085
What was your thinking like?

289
00:15:02,085 --> 00:15:03,225
What did you come in, like?

290
00:15:03,225 --> 00:15:06,795
You come in as a, as a council for
the Pacific region, for Oceania.

291
00:15:07,125 --> 00:15:10,995
Um, you know, obviously Oceania is a,
is a great organization covering a,

292
00:15:10,995 --> 00:15:14,805
a lot of different, as you mentioned,
a lot of different topics, plastic

293
00:15:14,805 --> 00:15:16,425
pollution, fisheries, and so forth.

294
00:15:16,905 --> 00:15:20,745
What, uh, what was like your, your
first projects that you were working

295
00:15:20,745 --> 00:15:22,260
on when you were working with Oceana?

296
00:15:24,210 --> 00:15:28,890
Well, my first, I think 30 days
on the job, we ended up filing,

297
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,185
uh, litigation, so, okay.

298
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,330
Over anchovy, so, okay.

299
00:15:33,570 --> 00:15:35,760
It was, um, almost immediate.

300
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:41,400
I believe I, I was, uh, having to, to
change my brain into more of a real

301
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:46,680
lawyer focus and file litigation over
the management of anchovy off our coast.

302
00:15:46,980 --> 00:15:47,490
And so.

303
00:15:47,930 --> 00:15:50,390
That was one of the first
things I did on the job.

304
00:15:50,390 --> 00:15:56,089
It was, um, but it was great to be
able to dig in and, uh, my previous

305
00:15:56,300 --> 00:16:01,790
work had not, uh, required me
really to use my to do litigation.

306
00:16:01,790 --> 00:16:02,089
We did.

307
00:16:02,089 --> 00:16:05,060
That wasn't a tool that my
previous jobs had utilized.

308
00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:08,250
But Oceania, it's one of
the tools in the toolbox.

309
00:16:08,250 --> 00:16:12,180
We, of course, interesting use
communications and other and other

310
00:16:12,180 --> 00:16:15,900
means to achieve our objectives, but
when needed, Oceania also takes the

311
00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:19,890
step of going to court and enforcing
our environmental laws like the

312
00:16:19,890 --> 00:16:23,370
Endangered Species Act when we need
to, and when we feel that there

313
00:16:23,370 --> 00:16:24,960
has been a violation of the law.

314
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,380
So yeah, really, really great to
step right into that role and be able

315
00:16:28,380 --> 00:16:32,880
to use my, my law degree for, for
those purposes on a campaign that

316
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:34,350
Oceania had been working on for.

317
00:16:34,630 --> 00:16:36,160
For many years before that.

318
00:16:36,490 --> 00:16:37,480
That's really interesting.

319
00:16:37,630 --> 00:16:41,260
I, I always find it interesting with
like a, an organization like Oceano,

320
00:16:41,290 --> 00:16:46,000
the, the amazing work that it's able
to do, uh, across like science policy,

321
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,370
advocacy, uh, conservation and law.

322
00:16:49,455 --> 00:16:53,775
I find a lot of organizations, they
don't talk a lot like enough about

323
00:16:53,985 --> 00:16:58,245
the law, uh, that the like, like the
litigation matters that they discuss.

324
00:16:58,245 --> 00:17:02,115
I almost feel like it's a story within
itself in terms of all the different

325
00:17:02,115 --> 00:17:04,695
tactics that you're able to use using.

326
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,370
Litigation and we don't
hear about it enough.

327
00:17:07,370 --> 00:17:10,250
We hear about the science and we
hear sometimes about the policy

328
00:17:10,250 --> 00:17:14,150
that's, that's made or the wins or
sometimes the shortcomings, but we

329
00:17:14,150 --> 00:17:16,130
never really hear about the the law.

330
00:17:16,130 --> 00:17:18,560
And it's so funny 'cause I think when
people think about lawyers, they think

331
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,830
about suits and they think about corporate
law and they think about money being

332
00:17:21,830 --> 00:17:23,720
made and, and businesses and so forth.

333
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,290
I almost find there needs to be like
a Suits environment type of of show.

334
00:17:27,290 --> 00:17:28,280
So we can start to see.

335
00:17:28,725 --> 00:17:31,905
Some of the things that you guys,
that everybody goes through when

336
00:17:31,905 --> 00:17:36,015
it comes to law, how, what's
the challenge as a lawyer, as an

337
00:17:36,015 --> 00:17:40,005
environmental lawyer that you face,
like working with an organization

338
00:17:40,005 --> 00:17:41,475
like Ocean N that has a lot of power.

339
00:17:41,475 --> 00:17:45,585
It has a lot of lobby power, it has a,
you know, it has a big constituency.

340
00:17:45,885 --> 00:17:50,715
Um, when you come to court, what's the,
what are the, some of the challenges that

341
00:17:50,715 --> 00:17:53,625
you guys face as a team of, of lawyers?

342
00:17:55,740 --> 00:17:57,690
Well, we're, we come to court prepared.

343
00:17:57,690 --> 00:18:01,740
We don't bring litigation unless
we think we have a very good case.

344
00:18:01,740 --> 00:18:07,020
And, um, so I think the best thing
Oceania does is that we don't just

345
00:18:07,020 --> 00:18:12,930
litigate, we also campaign, we do the
science, we do the advocacy, we build up

346
00:18:12,930 --> 00:18:17,700
the record so that when we're in court,
we know that it's based on science,

347
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:19,045
um, and that we have a good case.

348
00:18:19,615 --> 00:18:19,975
There.

349
00:18:19,975 --> 00:18:22,945
So that's one of the things
that Oceania just does so well.

350
00:18:22,945 --> 00:18:24,655
We use all the tools in the toolbox.

351
00:18:24,655 --> 00:18:29,275
We get, we get the public engagement,
we use communications to make sure

352
00:18:29,275 --> 00:18:32,935
we're communicating to the public and
decision makers about what's going on.

353
00:18:33,055 --> 00:18:37,015
And litigation is often sort of
the last, the last resort, right?

354
00:18:37,015 --> 00:18:41,035
We're trying to work within, um,
other realms with decision makers.

355
00:18:41,275 --> 00:18:43,075
And sometimes at the end of the day.

356
00:18:43,165 --> 00:18:46,465
There has been a violation of
law that we need to go enforce.

357
00:18:46,465 --> 00:18:51,264
And so that's one thing Oceania does
really well is has the whole, the whole

358
00:18:51,264 --> 00:18:55,495
picture when it comes to advocacy, and
I think that's like a, that's goes,

359
00:18:55,495 --> 00:18:56,825
it speaks to the team that you have.

360
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,480
At Oceania and, and the different
departments that you have and how well

361
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,560
you all work together to provide that
information if you need to go to court

362
00:19:04,565 --> 00:19:07,950
and, and, and stop something from
happening, like you said, it's the last,

363
00:19:07,950 --> 00:19:10,110
sort of last move that you need to make.

364
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,680
If a, if a law has been, uh,
you know, disregarded or not,

365
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,440
or not followed properly, uh,
which I think is interesting.

366
00:19:16,650 --> 00:19:19,650
Speaking of laws, let's talk about
a piece of legislation that's really

367
00:19:19,650 --> 00:19:21,630
important, the Endangered Species Act.

368
00:19:21,870 --> 00:19:24,810
Can you discuss, discuss like
what the Endangered Species Act

369
00:19:24,810 --> 00:19:26,970
is and, and how it protects?

370
00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:29,220
Specific animals that make the list?

371
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:30,810
Sure.

372
00:19:30,810 --> 00:19:34,830
The, the Endangered Species Act, I
mean, the primary goal is to protect

373
00:19:34,830 --> 00:19:39,600
and conserve, threatened and endangered
species and also the areas and

374
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,580
habitats that they need to, to survive
and avoid extinction and recover.

375
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,880
So those, that's really the main
goal of the Endangered Species

376
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,730
Act and to identify those species.

377
00:19:50,790 --> 00:19:54,720
Um, there's, there's definitions of what
it means to be endangered or threatened.

378
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:54,810
Mm-hmm.

379
00:19:54,885 --> 00:19:59,370
Endangered means that they are, you
know, threatened with extinction

380
00:19:59,550 --> 00:20:01,740
within, uh, the near future.

381
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,490
And if, and threatened is
that they're likely to be.

382
00:20:05,865 --> 00:20:08,625
Um, extinct within the foreseeable future.

383
00:20:08,625 --> 00:20:15,195
So once we've identified those species,
once, uh, the relevant agency, it's either

384
00:20:15,195 --> 00:20:18,765
the Fish and Wildlife Service or the
National Marine Fishery Service, depending

385
00:20:18,765 --> 00:20:21,045
on what species you're looking at.

386
00:20:21,315 --> 00:20:26,565
Um, but they will look at the science,
the, the, the status of the threats to

387
00:20:26,565 --> 00:20:31,635
that species, the population status,
um, the population growth or decline.

388
00:20:32,325 --> 00:20:35,985
And, and the habitat, the availability
of the quality and quantity of

389
00:20:35,985 --> 00:20:37,845
the habitat for that species.

390
00:20:38,175 --> 00:20:38,265
Mm-hmm.

391
00:20:38,505 --> 00:20:40,965
Um, and determine if it's
warranted for listing.

392
00:20:41,265 --> 00:20:46,515
And once they are listed, a whole host
of amazing protections come into place.

393
00:20:46,515 --> 00:20:49,815
You have the requirement to
designate critical habitat.

394
00:20:50,460 --> 00:20:55,200
You have a prohibition on what is called
take of species, which is a technical

395
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,160
definition, but it pretty much means,
you know, anything that might harm

396
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:03,810
harass, you can't hunt any of those,
and it's pretty broad definition of

397
00:21:03,810 --> 00:21:08,430
what it means to take a species and you
can't even attempt to do those things.

398
00:21:08,610 --> 00:21:10,080
That is also prohibited.

399
00:21:10,290 --> 00:21:13,590
So you get this very broad,
uh, protections right away

400
00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:15,330
when a species is listed.

401
00:21:15,870 --> 00:21:18,690
And it also requires the
development of recovery plans.

402
00:21:18,690 --> 00:21:20,790
So putting together that roadmap Yes.

403
00:21:20,790 --> 00:21:24,570
Looking holistically at the species,
what does it need to come back

404
00:21:24,570 --> 00:21:26,070
from the brink of extinction?

405
00:21:26,370 --> 00:21:30,090
And so that's sort of the, in the nutshell
of, uh, yeah, what the Endangered Species

406
00:21:30,090 --> 00:21:32,100
Act does when looking at specific species.

407
00:21:32,625 --> 00:21:35,625
Uh, recovery plans are such
an important part of that act.

408
00:21:35,685 --> 00:21:39,555
You know, something that as a scientist,
I always, I always acknowledge because,

409
00:21:39,975 --> 00:21:43,215
you know, with, you could put something,
an animal on a list and say, Hey, we,

410
00:21:43,245 --> 00:21:47,745
we can't do anything, you know, further
to, you know, decrease this population

411
00:21:47,745 --> 00:21:51,825
size or, or harm this animal or
harass this animal in any kind of way.

412
00:21:51,975 --> 00:21:53,235
Whether we mean to or not.

413
00:21:53,235 --> 00:21:55,245
We have to really, you
know, focus on this.

414
00:21:55,545 --> 00:21:56,445
Um, but.

415
00:21:56,460 --> 00:21:59,430
Yeah, that doesn't
necessarily help them recover.

416
00:21:59,430 --> 00:22:03,660
It could stop the harm and it can
stop, maybe a decrease or slow down, a

417
00:22:03,660 --> 00:22:07,410
decrease, but there's always something
there that will harm the animal,

418
00:22:07,410 --> 00:22:10,470
especially with all the cumulative
impacts that we see with animals.

419
00:22:10,470 --> 00:22:11,310
Not just one thing.

420
00:22:11,310 --> 00:22:14,580
One thing might be accelerating the
decrease, but it's not only just just

421
00:22:14,580 --> 00:22:18,240
one thing, and to have a recovery
plan in place to identify all these

422
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,780
different effects, to identify all
these different influences to identify.

423
00:22:22,315 --> 00:22:24,415
If we stop this, what do we need to do?

424
00:22:24,415 --> 00:22:26,665
Is there a repopulation aspect to it?

425
00:22:26,845 --> 00:22:28,045
Is it just a protection?

426
00:22:28,045 --> 00:22:30,655
Is it like protecting specific habitat?

427
00:22:30,685 --> 00:22:32,155
What habitat to protect?

428
00:22:32,425 --> 00:22:34,015
And I always find it interesting because.

429
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,450
Uh, when governments come in and they
want to develop natural resources, or

430
00:22:39,450 --> 00:22:44,400
they want to develop a piece of land
or a piece of water, and they, you

431
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,090
know, the Endangered Species Act sort
of, you know, quote unquote slows them

432
00:22:48,090 --> 00:22:52,710
down as they like to say, uh, which is
way I always find ironic because that's

433
00:22:52,710 --> 00:22:56,580
the whole point, is to not jump into
decisions and, and look at what's there.

434
00:22:56,940 --> 00:22:57,305
Uh, you know.

435
00:22:57,950 --> 00:23:01,280
The recovery plan is there to stop
those efforts from happening and,

436
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,040
and slow down those efforts from
happening so that these animals can

437
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,330
be protected and these habitats can
be protected, not just the animals.

438
00:23:08,330 --> 00:23:10,700
And I think we, we know that
you mentioned that too, it's

439
00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:14,210
looking at habitat availability,
food availability, and so forth.

440
00:23:14,450 --> 00:23:19,460
It's such an important aspect to that when
it comes to the Endangered Speech Act.

441
00:23:19,460 --> 00:23:22,970
From a legal aspect, what have
you found in your experience?

442
00:23:23,895 --> 00:23:29,685
Get like people try to cir circumvent
the most when it comes to the act or

443
00:23:29,865 --> 00:23:33,165
just maybe not the most, but just some
of the items they try and circumvent

444
00:23:33,375 --> 00:23:35,085
even though it's part of the legislation.

445
00:23:37,125 --> 00:23:38,625
Well, I think the, um.

446
00:23:39,074 --> 00:23:43,304
You know, looking at, uh, any sort
of activity that might impact a

447
00:23:43,304 --> 00:23:48,165
species, um, there is going to be an
assessment of what needs to be done to

448
00:23:48,165 --> 00:23:50,685
protect that species from that impact.

449
00:23:50,955 --> 00:23:51,135
Yeah.

450
00:23:51,135 --> 00:23:54,824
And I don't know, you know, that we see
a whole lot of, um, people necessarily

451
00:23:54,824 --> 00:23:59,235
trying to violate that, but maybe
it's skirt, the requirements from.

452
00:23:59,580 --> 00:24:03,570
You know, uh, not wanting, making,
making it go faster, making sure

453
00:24:03,570 --> 00:24:08,280
that we see, um, a faster result to
get their permit, which might have

454
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,110
mitigation measures in place, right?

455
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:10,770
Mm-hmm.

456
00:24:11,016 --> 00:24:13,920
That might be, Hey, we, we, you need to
do some mitigation work here to ensure

457
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,080
you don't have impact this species.

458
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,610
Maybe it's that you don't fish in
a certain area because that is.

459
00:24:20,985 --> 00:24:25,395
That area is important for this
species, um, for feeding or breeding

460
00:24:25,395 --> 00:24:27,375
or any other number of reasons.

461
00:24:27,765 --> 00:24:31,785
Um, so I don't know that there's a lot
of intentional trying to skirt the act,

462
00:24:31,785 --> 00:24:36,465
but certainly as you said, we hear that
people want to move faster and not,

463
00:24:36,495 --> 00:24:38,475
not stand in the way of development.

464
00:24:39,284 --> 00:24:42,855
Um, I think it's important to note
though that, you know, endangered species

465
00:24:42,855 --> 00:24:48,075
and, and species generally biodiversity
has such a large economic impact.

466
00:24:48,405 --> 00:24:52,575
And so it's not just about the, the
economic impact side of development

467
00:24:52,575 --> 00:24:57,675
and progress in that way, but also
just the value that we have, um, for

468
00:24:57,675 --> 00:25:03,254
these species, both from an ecotourism
perspective and the broader benefit.

469
00:25:03,254 --> 00:25:07,935
If you save one species, that can have
cascading effects for a whole ecosystem.

470
00:25:08,264 --> 00:25:11,084
That might not even be, you
know, apparent at the start.

471
00:25:11,594 --> 00:25:12,405
Absolutely.

472
00:25:12,824 --> 00:25:16,814
Can you talk a little bit about, maybe
an example of something that Oceania

473
00:25:16,814 --> 00:25:21,885
has worked on in the past, uh, in
regards to the Endangered Species Act?

474
00:25:21,885 --> 00:25:25,245
Just to give us a little taste of,
of what type of work that's been

475
00:25:25,245 --> 00:25:29,205
done, uh, to uphold, you know, the,
the Endangered Species Act when it

476
00:25:29,205 --> 00:25:30,705
comes to a, a particular species.

477
00:25:31,905 --> 00:25:32,655
Absolutely.

478
00:25:32,655 --> 00:25:35,175
We do a lot of work
with endangered species.

479
00:25:35,235 --> 00:25:36,405
Um, on the East coast.

480
00:25:36,405 --> 00:25:39,344
We work with North, north
Atlantic, right whales, which

481
00:25:39,344 --> 00:25:41,205
are really critically endangered.

482
00:25:41,205 --> 00:25:45,885
They have very low population levels
right now and we have been working to slow

483
00:25:45,885 --> 00:25:50,564
vessels down, um, and getting a vessel
speed rule because that's one of the main

484
00:25:50,564 --> 00:25:55,064
threats to species, as well as working
on getting rope list gear or pop-up

485
00:25:55,064 --> 00:25:56,745
gear in place in the lobster fishery.

486
00:25:57,445 --> 00:25:59,635
So making sure that whales
don't get entangled in gear,

487
00:25:59,635 --> 00:26:01,375
which is also a major threat.

488
00:26:01,375 --> 00:26:01,465
Mm-hmm.

489
00:26:01,705 --> 00:26:05,125
So those are two regulatory
things we've been trying to work

490
00:26:05,125 --> 00:26:07,495
on to help protect that species.

491
00:26:07,825 --> 00:26:11,125
And out on the West coast out
here, we have worked with,

492
00:26:11,125 --> 00:26:12,835
um, on Southern Resident.

493
00:26:13,085 --> 00:26:17,135
Uh, killer whales, right, both from
petitioning to ensure that critical

494
00:26:17,135 --> 00:26:21,845
habitat was designated for that species
because just because a species is listed,

495
00:26:21,845 --> 00:26:26,705
we don't always see the concurrent listing
of critical habitat with that species.

496
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:28,680
Yeah, sometimes it takes
an additional step.

497
00:26:29,415 --> 00:26:31,785
To ensure that that gets designated.

498
00:26:31,785 --> 00:26:36,045
So Ocean has petitioned the agency
to ensure that critical habitat

499
00:26:36,045 --> 00:26:37,995
gets designated for certain species.

500
00:26:38,025 --> 00:26:38,115
Mm-hmm.

501
00:26:38,355 --> 00:26:40,545
And also to make sure prey availability.

502
00:26:40,545 --> 00:26:44,235
So Southern residents are pretty
specific feeders they like.

503
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:46,919
Salmon, very specific salmon.

504
00:26:47,070 --> 00:26:51,090
So we have worked at the Regional
Fishery Management Council to ensure

505
00:26:51,090 --> 00:26:52,919
there's a salmon threshold mm-hmm.

506
00:26:53,159 --> 00:26:56,340
Where salmon, enough salmon
gets left in the water for

507
00:26:56,399 --> 00:26:58,500
those orcas to eat and survive.

508
00:26:58,770 --> 00:27:02,190
So there's a, there's several different
other examples I could provide as well

509
00:27:02,190 --> 00:27:03,990
where we have worked on, um, right.

510
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,040
Protecting endangered species sort of on
the ground in those ways and getting more

511
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,379
protections in place and using those.

512
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,190
Guideposts of the law to make sure
that we're protecting those species and

513
00:27:14,190 --> 00:27:16,004
that they can have a chance to recover.

514
00:27:16,860 --> 00:27:19,560
Yeah, you mentioned something
that was really interesting to me.

515
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,959
Petitioning the, like
the government to mm-hmm.

516
00:27:22,590 --> 00:27:26,580
Either put in this, this
concurrent protections of, you

517
00:27:26,580 --> 00:27:27,959
know, adding critical habitat.

518
00:27:27,990 --> 00:27:31,350
'cause sometimes, like, let's be honest,
you know, I've worked in government before

519
00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:34,949
and, and there are sometimes where there
are resources that are allocated based

520
00:27:34,949 --> 00:27:38,340
on, uh, prioritization of the, of the
government that's in play at that time.

521
00:27:38,340 --> 00:27:42,929
And so some, some species might get
more, uh, love than, than others.

522
00:27:42,929 --> 00:27:45,060
And sometimes things
get lost in the mix and.

523
00:27:45,615 --> 00:27:48,885
That when you look at the recovery plans
and what needs to be designated and

524
00:27:48,885 --> 00:27:52,095
the, and what you need to follow from
the law, it doesn't always get done.

525
00:27:52,095 --> 00:27:55,305
Not necessarily to say that it's,
you know, that government that's

526
00:27:55,335 --> 00:27:56,835
trying not to put those in.

527
00:27:56,985 --> 00:27:59,835
Sometimes it's just the resources
are spread too thin and, and

528
00:27:59,835 --> 00:28:00,945
they, and they have to do that.

529
00:28:01,545 --> 00:28:03,390
But, but other times it's, it's nefarious.

530
00:28:03,390 --> 00:28:06,330
Other times they want to keep something
out because they wanna develop something

531
00:28:06,330 --> 00:28:10,350
and they just slow their role in terms
of, of, of trying to get stuff done.

532
00:28:10,350 --> 00:28:11,670
So it, it goes both ways.

533
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,590
Um, but when you petition a, a government
to do this type of work, can you just

534
00:28:16,590 --> 00:28:20,385
talk a little bit of what that process
looks like, um, from a legal framework?

535
00:28:21,515 --> 00:28:21,805
Sure.

536
00:28:21,835 --> 00:28:26,040
Well, under the Endangered Species
Act, anyone can petition the,

537
00:28:26,250 --> 00:28:28,620
a, an agency to list a species.

538
00:28:28,620 --> 00:28:29,310
So at a very.

539
00:28:29,805 --> 00:28:33,945
Basic level of getting a species onto
a list, now you're gonna wanna provide

540
00:28:33,945 --> 00:28:35,595
a lot of scientific backing mm-hmm.

541
00:28:35,835 --> 00:28:37,995
For why you believe that's warranted.

542
00:28:38,295 --> 00:28:42,585
Um, but you can, anyone can petition
the agencies to list a species.

543
00:28:42,585 --> 00:28:46,755
And so that is a very important
tool when we do see that.

544
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,540
You know, as we, as we know right
now, agencies are under-resourced and

545
00:28:51,540 --> 00:28:56,399
underfunded, and they don't necessarily
have the time and resources to go

546
00:28:56,399 --> 00:28:58,590
do a assessment for every species.

547
00:28:58,980 --> 00:29:03,300
But organizations and people working on
the ground might have that information

548
00:29:03,300 --> 00:29:05,040
and be able to petition the agency.

549
00:29:05,445 --> 00:29:10,665
And they will turn around and, and do a 90
day finding, saying, is there substantial

550
00:29:10,665 --> 00:29:12,410
information here that we, mm-hmm.

551
00:29:12,490 --> 00:29:16,575
That we think is warranted to move to the
next step, which is a 12 month finding

552
00:29:16,845 --> 00:29:20,715
on whether or not that species should
be added to the endangered species list.

553
00:29:20,955 --> 00:29:23,265
So that's one place you
could petition the agency.

554
00:29:23,265 --> 00:29:26,415
Another is petitioning for
designation of critical habitat.

555
00:29:26,655 --> 00:29:30,165
So a species might be listed, but
again, not have that associated

556
00:29:30,165 --> 00:29:32,565
habitat, which we know is so important.

557
00:29:33,150 --> 00:29:37,530
And which in itself has protections
against, you know, being impacted

558
00:29:37,530 --> 00:29:40,470
by actions of the federal
government and private actors.

559
00:29:40,470 --> 00:29:45,090
So really important piece that doesn't
always get designated right away.

560
00:29:45,090 --> 00:29:48,780
And so we have to go to the agency
with proper information saying,

561
00:29:48,780 --> 00:29:53,670
here's the, the science we have on
where this species uses, what habitat

562
00:29:53,670 --> 00:29:55,380
the species uses, where it's at.

563
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,430
And petition the agency to then
designate that, which again triggers

564
00:29:59,730 --> 00:30:01,980
additional protections for those areas.

565
00:30:01,995 --> 00:30:04,695
Um, so a couple different
places to petition.

566
00:30:04,695 --> 00:30:09,975
Yeah, I think it's really interesting, uh,
a couple things that stood out to me in

567
00:30:09,975 --> 00:30:15,614
your answer there, because a, a lot of us,
you know, who are not part who, who may

568
00:30:15,614 --> 00:30:20,564
not be in the industry, like, or, or in a
group like Oceana, we might be following,

569
00:30:20,594 --> 00:30:22,215
you know, the emails and things like that.

570
00:30:22,215 --> 00:30:25,695
But it really goes to
show how much the staff.

571
00:30:26,100 --> 00:30:29,400
At, at these nonprofit organizations,
these environmental organizations

572
00:30:29,610 --> 00:30:33,990
watch and research what's being
done at, at every different

573
00:30:33,990 --> 00:30:35,610
level and every different aspect.

574
00:30:35,610 --> 00:30:39,240
The amount of meticulous work that
goes in to be like, okay, so this,

575
00:30:39,510 --> 00:30:43,020
this species isn't listed, but we've
seen, you know, we've read the science,

576
00:30:43,020 --> 00:30:45,630
we're working with scientists, we've
talked to scientists, we've built

577
00:30:45,630 --> 00:30:47,160
relationships within the community.

578
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,170
We know this species is decreasing.

579
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:54,240
Let's examine whether it needs to to be
listed and let's do the work and then

580
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:55,500
present it to the government Almost.

581
00:30:55,889 --> 00:30:58,949
Not to say they do the work for them,
but give the background information

582
00:30:58,949 --> 00:31:00,750
and provide a case to do that.

583
00:31:01,050 --> 00:31:05,340
That's like one thing, but also
looking at the species that are, have

584
00:31:05,340 --> 00:31:08,669
been listed and making sure that the
government has everything that they

585
00:31:08,669 --> 00:31:13,649
need, all the tools in the right place
and published at the same time, and

586
00:31:13,649 --> 00:31:18,425
making sure that it's all done, that's
required under that law, uh, takes a lot.

587
00:31:19,169 --> 00:31:23,520
Of, of effort and it, and it
takes a lot of of time to engage

588
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,540
with, with the government, uh,
entities who are in charge of that.

589
00:31:27,810 --> 00:31:32,879
Um, like how, like I know Oceania,
you guys are, you guys are big in

590
00:31:32,879 --> 00:31:37,050
the us We have, we have, uh, uh,
an affiliate I guess, or, uh, an

591
00:31:37,169 --> 00:31:39,870
Oceania Canada here in, in, in Canada.

592
00:31:40,230 --> 00:31:42,570
And I know they're not a large
organization, but they get a,

593
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,330
like in terms of staff members,
but they get a lot done.

594
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,040
Oceania in the us I know it's
like the, the, the, the main like

595
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,160
headquarters in the, like it's where
it began and, and so, so forth.

596
00:31:53,370 --> 00:31:58,170
How big is your staff to be able to
look at all these different aspects?

597
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,140
You guys must be putting in a ton
of work, and I know it's not like a

598
00:32:01,140 --> 00:32:02,730
huge staff, that's why I'm asking.

599
00:32:03,450 --> 00:32:03,870
Yeah.

600
00:32:03,870 --> 00:32:07,410
Well, I would hear on the West coast,
our Pacific team, which I'm a part of,

601
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,810
right, is just, uh, about 10 people.

602
00:32:09,870 --> 00:32:15,540
So we are, we are quite small and
mighty for a organization that works in.

603
00:32:15,870 --> 00:32:19,740
Four states at two regional
fishery management councils at the

604
00:32:19,740 --> 00:32:23,909
federal level weighs in on federal
legislation, state legislatures.

605
00:32:23,909 --> 00:32:29,219
So it is quite a lot a big body of
work for just a, a small team out here.

606
00:32:29,250 --> 00:32:29,340
Yeah.

607
00:32:29,550 --> 00:32:33,149
Um, and similarly on the east coast,
we have teams that work on various

608
00:32:33,149 --> 00:32:36,899
different issues, but you would be,
you would be shocked that, uh, the

609
00:32:36,899 --> 00:32:39,810
amount of work that everyone's able
to get done with the teams we have.

610
00:32:39,845 --> 00:32:39,905
Yeah.

611
00:32:40,325 --> 00:32:42,755
Um, and to your point,
we, we are very lucky.

612
00:32:42,755 --> 00:32:44,735
I work with, with several scientists.

613
00:32:44,765 --> 00:32:47,075
Um, we have a science team as well, right.

614
00:32:47,075 --> 00:32:50,765
But on our Pacific team, we
have several scientists who are

615
00:32:50,765 --> 00:32:52,565
just invaluable to building.

616
00:32:52,775 --> 00:32:56,705
Any case that I might bring is gonna
have to have that scientific backing.

617
00:32:56,705 --> 00:32:59,675
Anything we're petitioning the
government for, we're gonna have

618
00:32:59,675 --> 00:33:01,055
to have that science backing.

619
00:33:01,055 --> 00:33:01,770
And that is mm-hmm.

620
00:33:01,855 --> 00:33:04,955
That is required by the Endangered
Species Act and is one of the most

621
00:33:04,955 --> 00:33:08,345
important pieces is that these
things must be based on the best.

622
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:09,720
Science available.

623
00:33:09,810 --> 00:33:09,870
Yeah.

624
00:33:09,870 --> 00:33:12,870
And that's, that's a really
important thing and, and that

625
00:33:12,870 --> 00:33:14,730
we can uphold in court as well.

626
00:33:15,420 --> 00:33:16,560
Yeah, uh, definitely.

627
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,590
And I, I just wanted to shout that
out because it, it is something that

628
00:33:19,860 --> 00:33:21,240
I, I don't think people realize.

629
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,030
I think they see the name, you
know, like the Oceania is the

630
00:33:24,030 --> 00:33:26,280
Conservation Internationals,
and they see it's a big name.

631
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:27,330
They do a lot of stuff.

632
00:33:27,390 --> 00:33:30,810
It's not always like the massive
buildings where, you know, they have

633
00:33:30,810 --> 00:33:33,960
hundreds of people that are working,
like you said, 10 people that are looking

634
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,860
over four states, two, you know, uh,
fishing, regional councils and so forth.

635
00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:38,310
And you're just like.

636
00:33:38,715 --> 00:33:39,105
Wow.

637
00:33:39,135 --> 00:33:40,455
Like that's a, that's a lot of work.

638
00:33:40,455 --> 00:33:42,405
I, I give kudos to, to everybody there.

639
00:33:42,405 --> 00:33:44,925
But it's also the partnerships
that you guys make as well, right?

640
00:33:44,925 --> 00:33:47,685
Like you have scientists on staff,
but you also have partnerships with

641
00:33:47,685 --> 00:33:51,915
other scientists, with other nonprofit
organizations where you make coalitions.

642
00:33:51,915 --> 00:33:56,805
And how important is that, those
types of relationships to the work

643
00:33:57,135 --> 00:34:01,455
that you all do to get, you know,
the same solu to the same solution?

644
00:34:02,595 --> 00:34:03,795
It's invaluable.

645
00:34:03,795 --> 00:34:07,785
Our working with other
NGOs, with industry.

646
00:34:08,145 --> 00:34:13,365
With, um, decision makers, we,
we, it's invaluable to have that

647
00:34:13,365 --> 00:34:18,405
Other scientists, scientists at the
agencies, you know, we rely a lot on.

648
00:34:18,929 --> 00:34:22,005
On external partners as well and right.

649
00:34:22,139 --> 00:34:24,870
The more of us there are,
the stronger we are too.

650
00:34:24,870 --> 00:34:30,719
So, and the ability to work with industry
on some issues and find a solution,

651
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:36,239
be creative and find a solution that
works for everybody, um, is, is really

652
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,409
invaluable to be able to do that and
try to bring together as many people as

653
00:34:40,409 --> 00:34:42,449
we can when we're forming coalitions.

654
00:34:42,690 --> 00:34:46,889
Bring together as many groups that
have shared values and, and shared, um.

655
00:34:47,325 --> 00:34:51,135
And, and have a shared vision for how we
might move forward on a specific issue.

656
00:34:51,675 --> 00:34:52,695
Absolutely.

657
00:34:52,785 --> 00:34:56,250
You mentioned industry, uh, obviously
a very important part to conservation.

658
00:34:56,909 --> 00:35:00,180
A lot of industry has been blamed for,
you know, some of the problems that

659
00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:04,470
we've seen, but they also play, uh, an
integral role in the conservation because

660
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:05,580
they're the ones who are out there.

661
00:35:05,580 --> 00:35:09,360
You know, we talk about fishing,
shipping, tourism, to just name three.

662
00:35:09,630 --> 00:35:13,140
Um, especially these days, you're on
the west coast, you know, the West

663
00:35:13,140 --> 00:35:17,460
coast is being open even more now that
the Northwest passage is is opening up.

664
00:35:17,460 --> 00:35:19,140
We're seeing a lot more
shipping going forth.

665
00:35:19,140 --> 00:35:20,040
I know in Canada.

666
00:35:20,295 --> 00:35:23,835
There are specific laws enacted to
manage a lot of the shipping that

667
00:35:23,835 --> 00:35:25,935
happens, even fishing and and so forth.

668
00:35:26,355 --> 00:35:31,305
Um, how does like the Endangered
Species Act related, related

669
00:35:31,305 --> 00:35:34,035
decisions impact those industries?

670
00:35:34,634 --> 00:35:39,435
And then how do you work with, with
those industries in order to mitigate

671
00:35:39,435 --> 00:35:44,655
those impacts and, and really fast track
the, the recovery and the conservation

672
00:35:44,655 --> 00:35:47,955
of those species while balancing,
you know, the sort of the, the.

673
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,900
The, the worries or the concerns
of that, of that industry to make

674
00:35:51,900 --> 00:35:54,870
sure that they can still profit
and they can still sustainably

675
00:35:54,870 --> 00:35:56,520
fish and, and, and do their work.

676
00:35:57,735 --> 00:36:01,965
Um, I think the fishing industry is a
great example and partner, especially

677
00:36:01,965 --> 00:36:03,825
in the marine conservation world.

678
00:36:03,885 --> 00:36:07,785
Um, fishing entanglement and fishing
gear is one of the primary threats

679
00:36:07,785 --> 00:36:11,895
to large whales, um, to like the
Pacific Leatherback sea turtle.

680
00:36:12,045 --> 00:36:16,095
We know that that's a occurring and
we have seen real efforts by the

681
00:36:16,125 --> 00:36:18,375
fishing industry in, in many fisheries.

682
00:36:18,885 --> 00:36:24,765
To modify their gear and to work
with, uh, scientists and researchers

683
00:36:24,765 --> 00:36:28,545
to try to figure out how to reduce
their take of endangered species.

684
00:36:28,905 --> 00:36:33,135
Um, one great example off of
the Oregon coast is the, um,

685
00:36:33,165 --> 00:36:36,045
pink shrimp fishery, which was
catching a lot of endangered econ.

686
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,620
And they worked with researchers
and realized if they, um, put

687
00:36:40,620 --> 00:36:45,060
lights on their nets, they reduced
their econ catch to almost nothing.

688
00:36:45,060 --> 00:36:46,920
I mean, it was like, it was phenomenal.

689
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:46,980
Wow.

690
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:47,819
The results.

691
00:36:47,970 --> 00:36:53,009
So a really simple change that led to
a really great conservation outcome for

692
00:36:53,009 --> 00:36:58,230
the econ, worked for the fishery and
made pink shrimp much more sustainable.

693
00:36:58,529 --> 00:36:59,549
Um, that's amazing.

694
00:36:59,549 --> 00:37:06,180
And similarly, um, in with the Green Sea
turtle off the Atlantic Coast in Florida.

695
00:37:06,509 --> 00:37:10,379
You had actually both, uh, agencies,
the Fish and Wildlife Service, and the

696
00:37:10,379 --> 00:37:15,180
National Marine Fishery Service working
on conservation, um, of that species.

697
00:37:15,855 --> 00:37:20,174
Fish and wildlife service on the beaches,
helping, uh, prevent development on

698
00:37:20,174 --> 00:37:24,194
nesting beaches or mitigating for that
and ensuring that we could bring back

699
00:37:24,194 --> 00:37:26,595
the, that important habitat for nesting.

700
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:26,990
Mm-hmm.

701
00:37:27,075 --> 00:37:29,955
And in the ocean you had the
fishery service working with the

702
00:37:29,955 --> 00:37:34,305
shrimp fishery to try to reduce
their take of green sea turtles.

703
00:37:34,335 --> 00:37:38,775
And, you know, with pretty fabulous
results, they were able to up list two

704
00:37:38,775 --> 00:37:43,275
of the populations in the Atlantic,
including the one off the Florida coast.

705
00:37:43,705 --> 00:37:48,265
Um, and I believe the increase
was something like almost no nests

706
00:37:48,265 --> 00:37:52,134
being seen in Florida to over
200,000 nests in recent counts.

707
00:37:52,134 --> 00:37:56,154
So really important by working
with industry and identifying the

708
00:37:56,154 --> 00:38:00,174
problems for a species, we can,
yeah, we can work on the solutions

709
00:38:00,174 --> 00:38:04,375
and try to be creative, um, in the
fishing industry with modifying gear.

710
00:38:04,710 --> 00:38:08,100
Another great example as I mentioned,
is rope list that is being tested

711
00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:11,700
off both the east and west coast
right now and in Canada to try

712
00:38:11,700 --> 00:38:16,859
to get less entanglement, um, for
those large whales in pot fisheries.

713
00:38:17,565 --> 00:38:21,375
It, these conservation stories, these
success stories are just phenomenal.

714
00:38:21,375 --> 00:38:25,095
Like to see, as you mentioned, the green
sea turtle increase in nests going from

715
00:38:25,095 --> 00:38:27,765
like almost zero to over 200 nests.

716
00:38:27,765 --> 00:38:31,365
Like, you know, across the, the,
the southeast, uh, coastline

717
00:38:31,605 --> 00:38:33,135
is absolutely phenomenal.

718
00:38:33,225 --> 00:38:35,145
Uh, we've seen other conservation stories.

719
00:38:35,145 --> 00:38:39,465
The humpback whale on the west coast has
had a significant increase in population

720
00:38:39,465 --> 00:38:41,835
over the last, you know, 20 or 30 years.

721
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,259
And I, and I feel like it's, it's
because of this legislation when

722
00:38:45,259 --> 00:38:48,470
they're, when you're put on the
Endangered Species Act, you, you

723
00:38:48,620 --> 00:38:50,509
have to put in these recovery plans.

724
00:38:50,509 --> 00:38:55,220
It forces governments, it forces
organizations, and it, and it triggers.

725
00:38:55,770 --> 00:39:00,839
Money and attention to those specific,
you know, species in order to get

726
00:39:00,839 --> 00:39:02,879
them off the list wherever they are.

727
00:39:02,879 --> 00:39:06,600
I mean, I think, you know, one thing we
haven't really dove into, but we, I can

728
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,290
dive into in the intro is the, the level
of, you know, like you're looking at near

729
00:39:10,290 --> 00:39:15,810
extinction, um, you know, you're looking
at, uh, you're looking at, um, endangered,

730
00:39:15,810 --> 00:39:18,299
vulnerable, you know, least concern.

731
00:39:18,509 --> 00:39:19,710
These are all different.

732
00:39:19,730 --> 00:39:23,420
Types of, of settings on the list,
let's just say, and, and it's

733
00:39:23,420 --> 00:39:26,270
like the scale, the closer you are
to extinction, the worse it is.

734
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,730
But if you're like least
vulnerable, you know, something

735
00:39:28,730 --> 00:39:30,050
like, oh yeah, or least concerned.

736
00:39:30,870 --> 00:39:33,690
We're not totally concerned, but we're
watching, you know, we're watching

737
00:39:33,690 --> 00:39:37,020
the species because there's, there
seems to be a trend here and, and, and

738
00:39:37,020 --> 00:39:40,050
we need to watch, and you mentioned
the green sea sea turtle getting up

739
00:39:40,050 --> 00:39:44,130
listed twice, meaning that it's, you
know, it's getting less and less, uh,

740
00:39:44,130 --> 00:39:47,850
towards extinction and more and more
towards like, uh, getting off the list.

741
00:39:48,150 --> 00:39:49,950
Um, you know, it's, it's
interesting when we talk about.

742
00:39:50,475 --> 00:39:53,985
This up, you know, up listing and
then even getting off the list.

743
00:39:54,285 --> 00:39:58,065
It takes a lot to take an animal off
the list, a species off the list because

744
00:39:58,395 --> 00:39:59,745
there's so much protection in there.

745
00:39:59,745 --> 00:40:01,904
We wanna make sure that it's good to go.

746
00:40:02,205 --> 00:40:07,575
Um, do you find, have you ever had
to battle or go to litigation, I

747
00:40:07,575 --> 00:40:09,194
shouldn't say battle, go to litigation?

748
00:40:09,435 --> 00:40:14,295
Uh, when, for a species that were a,
maybe a government entity or someone

749
00:40:14,295 --> 00:40:17,654
else wants to take a species off
list 'cause they think it's doing

750
00:40:17,654 --> 00:40:19,095
well, just so that they can get.

751
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,130
Something, something done, you know,
from a development aspect, have you

752
00:40:23,130 --> 00:40:26,880
ever had to do that with Oceania or
hear of anybody having to do that?

753
00:40:28,005 --> 00:40:28,275
Yeah.

754
00:40:28,275 --> 00:40:32,985
I personally have not had to, uh, fight
over delisting, but there have, have

755
00:40:32,985 --> 00:40:34,965
been moves to delist many species.

756
00:40:34,965 --> 00:40:37,125
I think wolves is a primary example.

757
00:40:37,155 --> 00:40:37,305
Mm-hmm.

758
00:40:37,725 --> 00:40:41,025
Um, there have also been efforts
to overrule specific species

759
00:40:41,025 --> 00:40:42,285
listing through Congress.

760
00:40:42,285 --> 00:40:44,775
So to get an actual
amendment for a species.

761
00:40:45,155 --> 00:40:48,515
Um, one of the most famous is one
of the first, which was really the

762
00:40:48,515 --> 00:40:53,495
snail darter, which was holding up
the Teleco Dam, um, that the Tennessee

763
00:40:53,495 --> 00:40:55,145
Valley Authority was building.

764
00:40:55,325 --> 00:40:57,755
And that case went out all the
way up to the Supreme Court.

765
00:40:58,025 --> 00:41:03,065
Um, and then Congress like passed a, a
bill to allow the dam to be built and

766
00:41:03,065 --> 00:41:06,545
they actually moved the snail darter
out of the river 'cause it was gonna be

767
00:41:06,545 --> 00:41:09,515
flooded, um, and to other, other areas.

768
00:41:09,515 --> 00:41:12,575
I ended up finding the species and
more and more rivers after that.

769
00:41:13,010 --> 00:41:17,390
Um, but you know, there have been
attempts to sort of skirt around the

770
00:41:17,390 --> 00:41:21,890
requirements of listing or to get species,
uh, attempts to get species delisted.

771
00:41:21,890 --> 00:41:21,950
Yeah.

772
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,160
And you can petition the
agency to delist a species.

773
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,560
So just as we were talking
about petitioning the list

774
00:41:27,890 --> 00:41:30,320
and recently I think it was.

775
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,525
I might get the date
wrong, but, um mm-hmm.

776
00:41:32,605 --> 00:41:34,850
The snail darter was actually delisted.

777
00:41:35,030 --> 00:41:35,060
Okay.

778
00:41:35,150 --> 00:41:36,800
Um, several years ago now.

779
00:41:36,830 --> 00:41:40,640
And that was petitioned by, um, you
know, some of the original people

780
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:42,470
who had got the species listed.

781
00:41:42,470 --> 00:41:42,590
Okay.

782
00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:47,150
And so it took a long time, but that snail
darter came back and they were able to

783
00:41:47,150 --> 00:41:49,730
actually petition a delist, the species.

784
00:41:49,730 --> 00:41:54,650
So yeah, we, it can go both
ways, but um, yeah, delisting is.

785
00:41:54,945 --> 00:41:57,405
Something that it is a big decision.

786
00:41:57,585 --> 00:42:01,245
And just as with listing, we're
looking at the whole species.

787
00:42:01,245 --> 00:42:04,095
So sometimes it might feel
like a species is increasing,

788
00:42:04,095 --> 00:42:05,505
shouldn't it be off the list?

789
00:42:05,835 --> 00:42:10,185
But there it might be that the threats are
still so severe or their habitat is still

790
00:42:10,185 --> 00:42:16,065
too degraded that we are, we are concerned
that that species not going to recover.

791
00:42:16,335 --> 00:42:19,365
And so that's again that
holistic look at the species.

792
00:42:19,365 --> 00:42:21,465
So it might feel like
sometimes we should be.

793
00:42:22,035 --> 00:42:25,845
You know, moving towards delisting
and the agency's required to

794
00:42:25,845 --> 00:42:27,675
review those every five years.

795
00:42:27,915 --> 00:42:27,975
Yeah.

796
00:42:28,005 --> 00:42:31,785
Um, and even after delisting, they
have to continue to monitor that

797
00:42:31,785 --> 00:42:34,155
species for, for five years after.

798
00:42:34,155 --> 00:42:38,595
So we really do wanna make sure we're
making the right decisions here and.

799
00:42:39,135 --> 00:42:43,815
With about a third of the biodiversity
in the us uh, estimated to be at, you

800
00:42:43,815 --> 00:42:46,245
know, at threat right now at risk.

801
00:42:46,515 --> 00:42:48,975
I think we're, you know, if
anything, we're going to be seeing

802
00:42:48,975 --> 00:42:53,715
more listings of species, you
know, and we need more resources

803
00:42:53,715 --> 00:42:56,385
for our agencies to be doing that.

804
00:42:56,415 --> 00:43:00,885
More biologists, more scientists,
to be gathering the data, to be

805
00:43:00,885 --> 00:43:04,905
writing the recovery plans for
these species and to make sure that

806
00:43:04,905 --> 00:43:08,445
we're staying on top of that real
biodiversity loss that we're seeing.

807
00:43:09,359 --> 00:43:10,740
Uh, so important.

808
00:43:10,740 --> 00:43:14,459
I mean, we've, we've talked about, you
know, why the Endangered Species Act is

809
00:43:14,459 --> 00:43:18,390
in place and how important what, what
role and what an important role it plays.

810
00:43:18,390 --> 00:43:21,390
It just goes to show with that darter
you mentioned of, of, you know,

811
00:43:21,390 --> 00:43:24,660
like somebody could have just said,
we're not gonna move this species.

812
00:43:24,660 --> 00:43:25,709
We're just gonna build the dam.

813
00:43:25,709 --> 00:43:29,129
If it wasn't on the list, and that
species would've, could've been gone, but

814
00:43:29,129 --> 00:43:30,520
they had, they were forced to move it.

815
00:43:30,725 --> 00:43:34,384
And all of a sudden it, it does well,
uh, in other, in other river systems.

816
00:43:34,384 --> 00:43:38,705
And it, and it and it, uh, and it doesn't
even so, so well that it can be delisted.

817
00:43:38,975 --> 00:43:42,995
Having these types of laws in this
type of legislation plays such

818
00:43:42,995 --> 00:43:47,105
an important role in the recovery
'cause it forces us to pay attention.

819
00:43:47,345 --> 00:43:51,185
It forces to slow down any kind of
development that might affect that

820
00:43:51,185 --> 00:43:54,634
population or that species, wherever
it is, whether it's oceans, rivers,

821
00:43:54,634 --> 00:43:56,315
lakes, wherever, or even on the ground.

822
00:43:56,615 --> 00:43:59,285
And it's such an important
aspect of it and it's why that.

823
00:43:59,475 --> 00:44:02,025
You know, delisting is such a
hard thing to do 'cause we're

824
00:44:02,025 --> 00:44:03,735
very cautious when we do it.

825
00:44:04,035 --> 00:44:07,485
Uh, and, and you know, we, we make
sure that governments play their

826
00:44:07,485 --> 00:44:09,255
role and do what they need to do.

827
00:44:09,255 --> 00:44:13,005
And, you know, obviously we're,
we're recording this in a time

828
00:44:13,005 --> 00:44:17,685
where government resources are,
are very thin right now on purpose.

829
00:44:17,805 --> 00:44:22,395
Uh, and it's a, it's trying to allow
fossil fuels and other types of natural

830
00:44:22,395 --> 00:44:24,285
resource development to happen faster.

831
00:44:24,490 --> 00:44:25,870
And this is why they do it.

832
00:44:25,870 --> 00:44:28,959
And we need to, um, do as
much as we can to ensure that.

833
00:44:30,135 --> 00:44:34,575
Um, organizations like Oceania Pay can
pay attention and to say, Hey, you know,

834
00:44:34,605 --> 00:44:37,365
hold the governments accountable, making
sure they're working with government

835
00:44:37,365 --> 00:44:40,695
as an industry to say, we can still
do this, and, and it still needs to

836
00:44:40,695 --> 00:44:43,155
be done because it's part of our laws.

837
00:44:43,335 --> 00:44:44,745
One thing we haven't talked about.

838
00:44:44,850 --> 00:44:47,160
Is your constituency with, with Oceania.

839
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,529
The people, the people who
are listening to this episode,

840
00:44:49,830 --> 00:44:51,180
uh, listen to this podcast.

841
00:44:51,180 --> 00:44:52,470
They always want to get involved.

842
00:44:52,470 --> 00:44:54,390
They always want to be
able to do something.

843
00:44:54,660 --> 00:44:57,150
And I know this is something
that is, is difficult for

844
00:44:57,150 --> 00:44:59,040
people to completely relate to.

845
00:44:59,310 --> 00:45:02,610
You know, when we talk about issues like
plastic pollution, we can probably play

846
00:45:02,610 --> 00:45:07,010
more of a. Of a short, shorter term role
by reducing our own single use plastics

847
00:45:07,010 --> 00:45:08,780
in our household and our daily lives.

848
00:45:09,020 --> 00:45:13,220
But working with, you know, and trying
to, uh, support work with Endangered

849
00:45:13,220 --> 00:45:17,840
Species Act is, is difficult for people
to maybe wrap their head around because

850
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,470
it's that such a, a different, it's kind
of like disconnected from our daily lives.

851
00:45:21,860 --> 00:45:25,850
How would you suggest, Tara, that
we could like, uh, the just people,

852
00:45:25,850 --> 00:45:28,790
whether they live in the US or they
live outside the US in their own

853
00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:31,580
countries, how can they play a role in.

854
00:45:31,950 --> 00:45:35,520
Uh, helping out organizations
like yourselves or even just in

855
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:40,290
individually being able to hold
governments accountable to, to the ESA?

856
00:45:42,030 --> 00:45:46,530
Well, one great thing about the ESA
is that it has a citizen provision.

857
00:45:46,530 --> 00:45:51,090
So if you ever feel that the law is being
violated, you can actually bring, uh,

858
00:45:51,150 --> 00:45:55,650
litigation even against the government if
you feel that the ESA is being violated.

859
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,980
Now, that's an extreme step, but that
is of course one of the great things

860
00:45:58,980 --> 00:46:00,365
that we love about the ESA as lawyers.

861
00:46:01,095 --> 00:46:04,245
Um, but also contact
your elected officials.

862
00:46:04,335 --> 00:46:06,765
Let them know why you
care about these species.

863
00:46:06,765 --> 00:46:08,355
You know, what they mean to you.

864
00:46:08,625 --> 00:46:11,835
The southern residents off our coast,
the southern resident orcas off our

865
00:46:11,835 --> 00:46:15,915
coast here, have such deep cultural
significance in the Pacific Northwest.

866
00:46:16,185 --> 00:46:17,955
Legislators need to hear about that.

867
00:46:17,955 --> 00:46:20,595
You know, Congress works for
us here in the United States.

868
00:46:20,595 --> 00:46:24,855
We, we elect them to work for us, and they
need to hear that you care about this.

869
00:46:24,860 --> 00:46:24,980
Mm-hmm.

870
00:46:25,060 --> 00:46:25,340
There are.

871
00:46:25,855 --> 00:46:28,465
Continued threats to the
Endangered Species Act.

872
00:46:28,465 --> 00:46:32,185
We have seen many different efforts
to weaken the regulation, weaken

873
00:46:32,185 --> 00:46:36,595
the law, um, you know, business and
industry wants to push these through

874
00:46:36,595 --> 00:46:40,915
so that they don't have to change or
modify or halt their developments.

875
00:46:41,125 --> 00:46:45,295
We've seen those sort of pushes in
Congress and we need our constituency,

876
00:46:45,475 --> 00:46:48,805
this constituency to be speaking up
and make sure Congress hears from

877
00:46:48,805 --> 00:46:50,450
you from the other side to say no.

878
00:46:50,970 --> 00:46:54,330
Species have value and
they add to our economy.

879
00:46:54,330 --> 00:46:54,390
Yeah.

880
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,380
I think we have a, you know, we
have a billion dollar whale watching

881
00:46:58,380 --> 00:47:00,360
tourism industry in this country.

882
00:47:00,570 --> 00:47:04,890
That is nothing to, you know, that's,
that's a really important stat and a

883
00:47:04,890 --> 00:47:06,630
very important driver of our economy.

884
00:47:06,630 --> 00:47:09,930
So, um, just making sure that they
hear from you and they hear that

885
00:47:09,930 --> 00:47:13,980
other side of the economic argument
on, you know, why this matters,

886
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,610
um, and why it's really part of our
cultural heritage here as Americans.

887
00:47:17,610 --> 00:47:18,780
I love that.

888
00:47:18,780 --> 00:47:19,740
Thank you so much, Tara.

889
00:47:19,740 --> 00:47:21,810
This has been a pleasure
to have you on the podcast.

890
00:47:21,810 --> 00:47:26,100
It's such a, uh, you play such an
important role in, in working with Oceania

891
00:47:26,100 --> 00:47:29,940
and helping us not only in, in terms of
the courts when you need to, when you

892
00:47:29,940 --> 00:47:33,840
need to battle, but also, you know, making
sure that you know, everybody is following

893
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,720
the law, the right law, the Endangered
Species Act, and other laws that.

894
00:47:36,955 --> 00:47:39,835
Are enacted in the US and we really
appreciate the, the hard work that

895
00:47:39,835 --> 00:47:44,154
you and your fellow, uh, colleagues
at, at Oceania do each and every day.

896
00:47:44,154 --> 00:47:47,035
So thank you so much for coming on
the podcast and, and letting us know.

897
00:47:47,035 --> 00:47:49,435
We'd love to invite you back
and to talk more about what you

898
00:47:49,435 --> 00:47:50,815
do in, in different aspects.

899
00:47:50,965 --> 00:47:54,265
Maybe, uh, aside from the, the
Endangered Species Act and talk about

900
00:47:54,265 --> 00:47:57,235
plastics next time, um, like I did
with your colleague Christie Levitt.

901
00:47:57,235 --> 00:47:59,605
So it'd be a lot of fun to to
have you back on, and thank you

902
00:47:59,605 --> 00:48:00,595
so much for, for being here.

903
00:48:01,410 --> 00:48:04,020
Thank you for having us and
for anyone that wants to learn

904
00:48:04,020 --> 00:48:06,060
more, please go to oceania.org.

905
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,010
We have tons of ways to get involved.

906
00:48:08,010 --> 00:48:08,910
Take action.

907
00:48:09,180 --> 00:48:11,070
Join our our Wavemaker list.

908
00:48:11,070 --> 00:48:13,170
We'd love to have you in this movement.

909
00:48:13,770 --> 00:48:14,310
That's awesome.

910
00:48:14,310 --> 00:48:14,695
Thank you so much.

911
00:48:18,330 --> 00:48:20,940
Thank you, Tara, for joining us
on today's episode of the How

912
00:48:20,940 --> 00:48:21,930
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

913
00:48:21,930 --> 00:48:24,990
It was great to be able to hear
about all the success that Ocean

914
00:48:24,990 --> 00:48:29,730
has had and all of the work that is
done to put into protecting specific

915
00:48:29,730 --> 00:48:33,000
species that are on the endangered
species list, and even trying to get

916
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:34,920
some that need to be on that list.

917
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:36,120
And I just think it's phenomenal.

918
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,670
I think the conservation success
stories that have come from endangered

919
00:48:38,670 --> 00:48:41,820
species, not only in the US but all
over the world, is really, really.

920
00:48:42,035 --> 00:48:45,545
Important to acknowledge that
this is a tool that works.

921
00:48:45,545 --> 00:48:49,415
These tools bring back species
if they are done properly, and

922
00:48:49,415 --> 00:48:53,855
organizations like Oceana ensure that
the government is held accountable

923
00:48:53,944 --> 00:48:56,254
for that recovery process to happen.

924
00:48:56,254 --> 00:48:59,855
Something in that I always value with
the Endangered Species Act, whether

925
00:48:59,855 --> 00:49:01,654
it's in US, Canada, or elsewhere.

926
00:49:01,795 --> 00:49:06,595
Is that the recovery documents or the
recovery process that have to be done

927
00:49:06,895 --> 00:49:10,375
for every species, these recovery
documents are extremely important to

928
00:49:10,375 --> 00:49:14,635
make sure that these species have a
plan and can come back from that plan.

929
00:49:14,635 --> 00:49:17,605
It's really, really important to
have that, and it's really great to

930
00:49:17,605 --> 00:49:20,785
see Oceano hold in the government
to account by that, by putting in

931
00:49:20,785 --> 00:49:24,385
petitions to ensure that they have
these produced, and I think it's great.

932
00:49:24,405 --> 00:49:26,985
Oceania does this all over the
world, not just in the us, but

933
00:49:26,985 --> 00:49:28,545
we're focusing on the US today.

934
00:49:28,665 --> 00:49:32,295
But if you're in a country that
has Oceania I, I highly recommend

935
00:49:32,295 --> 00:49:33,525
that you look up their site.

936
00:49:33,795 --> 00:49:37,485
If you go to the main site, oceania.org,
you can probably get to their affiliates.

937
00:49:37,695 --> 00:49:38,565
It's just amazing.

938
00:49:38,685 --> 00:49:41,085
A lot of times if it's, it's in
a specific country, you could put

939
00:49:41,085 --> 00:49:44,325
Oceania in the country like Oceania,
Canada and Google, and it'll come up.

940
00:49:44,325 --> 00:49:47,715
Or if you're in Europe, you can do
Oceania Europe and it'll come up as well.

941
00:49:47,910 --> 00:49:51,390
Oceania UK I think is a separate
one now, but it's really great to

942
00:49:51,420 --> 00:49:52,860
see Oceania do such great work.

943
00:49:52,860 --> 00:49:54,960
Tara, I wanna thank you
so much for joining us.

944
00:49:55,170 --> 00:49:57,840
You were great to have on, looking
forward to having you back on to talk

945
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:02,250
more about litigation, more about avoiding
litigation to get these projects done

946
00:50:02,460 --> 00:50:05,550
and help the government, you know, be
held accountable and ensure that these

947
00:50:05,670 --> 00:50:09,285
species are protected, whether it's the
Endangered Species Act or other laws

948
00:50:09,285 --> 00:50:12,150
like, you know, looking after marine
protection from marine pollution.

949
00:50:12,210 --> 00:50:12,270
So.

950
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,600
Always wonderful to have somebody
from Ocean and especially Tara.

951
00:50:15,810 --> 00:50:17,610
It was great meeting and great
introducing to my audience.

952
00:50:17,610 --> 00:50:18,990
I can't wait for you to come back.

953
00:50:19,020 --> 00:50:21,690
If you're listening to this or you're
watching this on YouTube, you have

954
00:50:21,690 --> 00:50:25,080
any questions, I would love to hear
from you or you have any comments or

955
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,090
anything like that, please let me know.

956
00:50:27,300 --> 00:50:31,770
You can get access to me by DMing
me on Instagram at How to Protect

957
00:50:31,770 --> 00:50:35,190
the Ocean, or you can just leave
a comment in the YouTube comment.

958
00:50:35,470 --> 00:50:39,400
Or you can go to speak
up for blue.com/contact.

959
00:50:39,460 --> 00:50:39,760
That's it.

960
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:41,650
Speak up for blue.com/contact.

961
00:50:41,650 --> 00:50:44,020
Fill the form, goes right to
my personal email and try and

962
00:50:44,020 --> 00:50:45,430
answer them as soon as possible.

963
00:50:45,730 --> 00:50:48,490
And again, I wanna thank you so much
for joining me on today's episode of

964
00:50:48,490 --> 00:50:49,780
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

965
00:50:49,780 --> 00:50:52,480
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from
the true nor strong and free.

966
00:50:52,750 --> 00:50:53,320
Have a great day.

967
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,210
We'll talk to you next time
and happy conservation.