Oceana Working to Protect Endangered Species: How Legal Action Safeguards Whales and Sea Turtles

0:00 A beach goer sees a humpback whale breach off the coast, unaware it's a species. Once on the brink beneath the surface, sea turtles struggled to survive fishing nets and warming oceans. Tara Brock, an environmental lawyer with Oceania, works behind the scenes to defend these species. The Endangered Species Act is a decades old, but still powerful law that gives threatened species a fighting chance. Legal decisions influence whether whales, dodge ship strikes or sea turtles escape by cash. ESA enforcement has led to real change like gear modifications that saved. Thousands of sea turtles. Some protections are under attack. Loopholes are widening and enforcement is uneven.

0:40 Oceania uses litigation science and public pressure to push for accountability. Listeners can support policy changes, urge better industry practices, and speak out for species without a voice. Every hatchling that makes it to the sea and every whale breaching free is a reminder that the law can work if we use it. We're gonna be talking about the Endangered Species Act and how important it is to preserving this specific species on this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Let's start the show. Hey everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you could speak up for the ocean, and what you could do to live for a better ocean by taking action.

1:24 And on today's episode, we're gonna be speaking to Tara Brock. She is an environmental lawyer for Oceania, and she is here to talk about the Endangered Species Act and how it can be used as a tool to protect species that are a little bit more vulnerable than we think. And the conservation story is a successful conservation story that have come. From enacting this law and following this law, it's going to be a great episode. I can't wait for you to listen, but before we do, I wanted to talk to you about something that's really important to me and I think really important to you. Do you want to learn how to conserve the ocean better? Do you want to protect it? This is something that's really been of interest for me for a long time. Something to go beyond just this podcast and to help guide you to, you know, live for a better ocean.

2:12 I want you to join The Undertow. It's a new company that I'm the co-founder of with two amazing women, Serena and Amanda. We are starting a digital app. We are creating it. We are in the process of creating it, and we're almost there to launch it. We want you to be a part of it. We want you to learn about wave makers who are really, you know, breaking ceilings and looking to protect the ocean a little bit more, may not have the support all the time there. And we provide an infrastructure in there for you to be able to not only listen to their mission, but help them in getting closer to protecting the ocean as well as yourself. So it's a lot of fun. We want you to join. All you have to do is go to speak up for blue.com/join the undertow. That's speak up for blue.com/join the undertow, all one word, and get on the waiting list to get in.

2:56 We're almost ready to launch that app. Let's get into the interview with Tara Brock, environmental lawyer for Oceana. I can't wait for you to listen. Here's the interview. Enjoy and I'll talk to you after. Hey Tara, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Are you ready to talk about the Endangered Species Act? Yes, I am excited to talk about the Endangered Species Act and its importance for conserving species. It's funny, you know, when when we talk about getting excited for something, it's not often that we get excited to talk about a piece of legislation that's really, you know, that's obviously really important. We're getting into why it's so important, but it's something, it's something that always makes me laugh. It's like we're gonna talk about like legislation. Everybody's like, yay, because it's. You know, this is something, endangered Species Act is something that is all, like every country seems to have one.

3:41 Like in Canada, we have one where I'm from, and then obviously the US has one federally, and then we also have them, you know, in states and in provinces. They play a very, you know, important role in conservation. But we don't really talk a lot about them, but we, we hear about. The, you know, this, this type of legislation, sometimes in a good way, but oftentimes in a bad way, uh, because of the types of animals that are there and the level of, of, I guess, where they are in terms of extinction or protection and, and what, and how much information they need or how much protection they actually need. So it's, it's a very important legislation, but I always just find it funny how. We get excited to talk about legislation, but you are a lawyer and so this is what you like to talk about and so do I, and so this is gonna be a lot of fun.

4:24 But before we get into talking about the Endangered Species Act, Tara, let's get to know you a little bit. Why don't you to let the audience know who you are and what you do. Well, yeah, thanks again for having me. Definitely get excited in talking about conservation laws. So this is, I'm excited to be here. Um, my name's Tara Brock. I am Pacific Legal Director and Senior counsel at Oceana. So my job entails working on all manner of ocean conservation issues off the West coast in Alaska. We work on responsible fisheries management, reducing plastic pollution in the ocean conserving species, um, and really just making sure that the oceans remain a really healthy place because of their importance to life on earth.

5:08 It is a tall order, you know, to, to protect the oceans, especially from the, from, from the courts or from a legislative perspective and a law and a law perspective. Uh, how did this all come about in terms of becoming a lawyer? When did you start to think, this is what I want to do, you know, when I, when I grow up and, and did you always think that this is where you're gonna end up in environmental law and protecting the ocean? Oh, that's a great question. I, I definitely do not have a linear path, I think, to this work. I was actually an art major in undergrad. And I worked with a lot of different materials. I liked collecting materials. I worked with a lot of trash, frankly, to make my pieces interesting, and that led me to working with our local recycling facility and collecting a lot of the plastics from there, and learning that plastic bottle caps weren't recycled at the time, and just seeing the mountains of waste that was coming into that facility.

6:09 Some that was getting recycled, some that wasn't, and researching all of that. And it was right at the time that Captain Charles Moore with the Alita Foundation was discovering the Great Pacific Gyre, which perhaps some of your listeners have heard about, but a floating mass of plastics out in the ocean, most of them tiny particles. And so that was just coming into the public's forefront. And so my art. Started to sort of reflect some of that and become more of education about what was going on in our oceans and environment and how our waste was contributing to that. And so I picked up an environmental minor while I was at school, and the rest is history. I got hooked in environmental advocacy working with Environment Michigan.

6:52 Mm-hmm. Um, and then found my way out to the West coast for law school at Lewis and Clark, one of the best environmental law schools in the country. And. Once I saw the Oregon coast, I was definitely hooked on, on helping, protect and do ocean law. It is absolutely, um, magnificent out here. The West coast really is beautiful. It well, absolutely it is. That's my, my non-linear path towards, uh, becoming a lawyer and, uh, diving into ocean conservation. I, I mean, I love that, you know, a lot of the, something that I've discovered, 'cause I ask all my guests, you know, how did they get to where they got? And one of the things that I've realized fairly quickly is that. It's never a linear path, you know, very rarely.

7:33 You know, sometimes it is, but very rarely is, is it a linear path of where they got, like where they started to where they wanted to go, and then they got there that way. And just a straight, straight line. It's always meandering and, and I feel like that is part of how they got to where they go is the experiences that they pick up. For you, Tara, it sounds like it was, you know, as you were, as you were, you know, making these pieces out of, out of trash. And you start to realize in the recycling industry, it's not what it is. It was advertised as a lot of things weren't getting recycled. And then you start to realize, well, hold on a second here. What, what can I do? Uh, when you mentioned that you took, you picked up, uh, an environmental minor. Was that like an environmental science minor or was it more, uh, like, like in the advocacy, uh, public affairs domain?

8:19 How, how did that work? Uh, that's a great question because it was actually called a Global change minor, which was really new program at the time, at the University of Michigan, and it was through the School of Natural Resources. But it focused both on how the earth changes naturally. Mm-hmm. And how humans are impacting that. So we studied population demographics, but also natural processes. But it wasn't strictly like an environmental science, um, uh, minor. It was definitely involved a lot bigger picture on how the earth was changing and how humans were impacting that. And so I feel very lucky that I was able to, to partake in that.

9:02 I think it was only the first or second year they were offering it at the time. Yeah. Um, and really cool, uh, program to be able to, I can imagine. I mean that, I feel like everybody should have to go through a program like that just to really fully understand what, you know, what, how, what influence we have on the planet and how we're, we're changing the planet. That obviously kickstarted an interesting career for you, you know, in, in environmental advocacy. When you get outta school, what makes, like, where did you head first? Like, what makes you go from school and doing like, you know, obviously fine arts, which you could have gone into the, the, the art direct, like the direction of art with, you know, ocean conservation or conservation in general, or you know, you went the environmental advocacy route.

9:45 What was like your first step and did you really fully understand where you wanted to go after that at that point? Well, that's, uh, you know, I don't know that I fully understood where I wanted to go. I graduated law school in 2011, which was not the best time to graduate from law school. Right. Jobs were scarce. Yep. And so I was applying everywhere. I did not have a job when I came. Outta law school, but during law school I had volunteered with a lot of organizations including Surf Rider Foundation. Mm-hmm. Um, which works to protect oceans, waves, and beaches. Focus a lot on recreational users. And it was such a great experience and it's really where I feel like I, I cut my teeth and organizing and advocacy and how people and people's voices can be used to change policy and change impact on the ground.

10:39 And so I kept volunteering. I kept, uh, putting myself out there and showing up. I worked for a strategic consulting firm for a while, helping other nonprofits be successful in their campaigns. And over time, I, um, ended up working at the Pew Charitable Trust and working on fisheries, uh, policy. And so that's sort of the, the not linear, again, path that I came out of law school. So it was, um. It was a great experience, honestly. Yeah. Having and volunteering, you know, I think that that's a great way to get involved and to learn things, um, that you're not an expert in. I don't have a marine biology degree.

11:19 I don't, um, you know, have that background. But learning by doing and learning by listening to others was just so valuable. Not only having the legal side of things from my education, but really learning that. Advocacy toolkit from, from Surf Rider and others, um, and how to run campaigns. Absolutely. I mean, you seem to have received a lot of experience, uh, over a wide variety of, of, of types of campaigns, not only from a notion perspective, but a recreational perspective. And then working with, you know, a, a plethora of nonprofit organizations, I'm sure you know, across the gambit of, of running campaigns. Let me ask you this because I find this is always interesting.

12:02 You come from a very creative background doing a degree in fine arts. How has that helped you in adapting to the, the different types of campaigns and the different types of what seems to be subject matters that come up and topics that come up that you are able to cover? Do you find that having that creative background allows you that. That wiggle room or that that space to, to be able to think out of the box and, and bring that to the table. Uh, when you run these types of campaigns. Absolutely. I always say that having a creative mindset, being open-minded and thinking really out of the box sometimes is the best way to approach something.

12:43 You know, we, we can be very linear in our goals and our policy objectives, and without thinking about maybe who else should be at the table. Or what other constituency might care about this? And really thinking about other tactics and frankly, using art in, in a way to educate people. Um, there's a great organization called Wash to Shore. Mm-hmm. Here in Oregon. Based here in Oregon that makes these amazing sculptures out of marine debris or trash that they find on the beach. And they're gorgeous. I mean, and you just don't even realize that that is all stuff collected from the ocean. Such a good adv adv advocacy tool to educate the public about this problem of plastics in the ocean and, and connecting for people, making that connection for people.

13:29 So absolutely being creative and having that creative mindset is so beneficial to this work. And thinking creatively about how we might frame a policy or even draft a policy to get the outcome we want, um, while still considering other, you know, other needs. And so I definitely think it's, uh, it's helpful. I can imagine. I you, when you mentioned the, the, the art of from trash, it, it reminded me at out Toronto Zoo here, uh, there was a display and I, I feel like was the soro may have built the, the displays, but it was this massive polar bear, like lifesize polar bear made of trash. And when you look at it, you, you were in awe. You're like, wow, this is really cool. Like this is huge and it looks like a polar bear.

14:11 Uh, you know, it's got the same kind of features, and then as you get closer and closer you realize these are everyday trash materials. That, and, and what we think is recycled materials that we expect. Gets recycled or gets disposed of appropriately, but are found in the ocean or are found in our landscapes. And you realize like, oh my gosh, like I use a lot of these materials and this is what this animal's made of. And you're like, this is a lot of material to make this massive, you know, animal like lifesize animal. And it, and it, it makes you think, you know, and in terms of that, and I find that. Art plays such an important role in that, in, uh, in conservation. I don't think we realize it when we, when we see it, but if you sit back and think about it, it's, it's really interesting. Um, and so when you, when you get to Oceania, um, you know, you get to it in, I think it was 2019 when you, when you, when you started there.

14:59 Um. What was your thinking like? What did you come in, like? You come in as a, as a council for the Pacific region, for Oceania. Um, you know, obviously Oceania is a, is a great organization covering a, a lot of different, as you mentioned, a lot of different topics, plastic pollution, fisheries, and so forth. What, uh, what was like your, your first projects that you were working on when you were working with Oceana? Well, my first, I think 30 days on the job, we ended up filing, uh, litigation, so, okay. Over anchovy, so, okay. It was, um, almost immediate. I believe I, I was, uh, having to, to change my brain into more of a real lawyer focus and file litigation over the management of anchovy off our coast.

15:46 And so. That was one of the first things I did on the job. It was, um, but it was great to be able to dig in and, uh, my previous work had not, uh, required me really to use my to do litigation. We did. That wasn't a tool that my previous jobs had utilized. But Oceania, it's one of the tools in the toolbox. We, of course, interesting use communications and other and other means to achieve our objectives, but when needed, Oceania also takes the step of going to court and enforcing our environmental laws like the Endangered Species Act when we need to, and when we feel that there has been a violation of the law. So yeah, really, really great to step right into that role and be able to use my, my law degree for, for those purposes on a campaign that Oceania had been working on for.

16:34 For many years before that. That's really interesting. I, I always find it interesting with like a, an organization like Oceano, the, the amazing work that it's able to do, uh, across like science policy, advocacy, uh, conservation and law. I find a lot of organizations, they don't talk a lot like enough about the law, uh, that the like, like the litigation matters that they discuss. I almost feel like it's a story within itself in terms of all the different tactics that you're able to use using. Litigation and we don't hear about it enough. We hear about the science and we hear sometimes about the policy that's, that's made or the wins or sometimes the shortcomings, but we never really hear about the the law.

17:16 And it's so funny 'cause I think when people think about lawyers, they think about suits and they think about corporate law and they think about money being made and, and businesses and so forth. I almost find there needs to be like a Suits environment type of of show. So we can start to see. Some of the things that you guys, that everybody goes through when it comes to law, how, what's the challenge as a lawyer, as an environmental lawyer that you face, like working with an organization like Ocean N that has a lot of power. It has a lot of lobby power, it has a, you know, it has a big constituency. Um, when you come to court, what's the, what are the, some of the challenges that you guys face as a team of, of lawyers? Well, we're, we come to court prepared.

17:57 We don't bring litigation unless we think we have a very good case. And, um, so I think the best thing Oceania does is that we don't just litigate, we also campaign, we do the science, we do the advocacy, we build up the record so that when we're in court, we know that it's based on science, um, and that we have a good case. There. So that's one of the things that Oceania just does so well. We use all the tools in the toolbox. We get, we get the public engagement, we use communications to make sure we're communicating to the public and decision makers about what's going on. And litigation is often sort of the last, the last resort, right? We're trying to work within, um, other realms with decision makers.

18:41 And sometimes at the end of the day. There has been a violation of law that we need to go enforce. And so that's one thing Oceania does really well is has the whole, the whole picture when it comes to advocacy, and I think that's like a, that's goes, it speaks to the team that you have. At Oceania and, and the different departments that you have and how well you all work together to provide that information if you need to go to court and, and, and stop something from happening, like you said, it's the last, sort of last move that you need to make. If a, if a law has been, uh, you know, disregarded or not, or not followed properly, uh, which I think is interesting. Speaking of laws, let's talk about a piece of legislation that's really important, the Endangered Species Act.

19:21 Can you discuss, discuss like what the Endangered Species Act is and, and how it protects? Specific animals that make the list? Sure. The, the Endangered Species Act, I mean, the primary goal is to protect and conserve, threatened and endangered species and also the areas and habitats that they need to, to survive and avoid extinction and recover. So those, that's really the main goal of the Endangered Species Act and to identify those species. Um, there's, there's definitions of what it means to be endangered or threatened. Mm-hmm. Endangered means that they are, you know, threatened with extinction within, uh, the near future. And if, and threatened is that they're likely to be.

20:05 Um, extinct within the foreseeable future. So once we've identified those species, once, uh, the relevant agency, it's either the Fish and Wildlife Service or the National Marine Fishery Service, depending on what species you're looking at. Um, but they will look at the science, the, the, the status of the threats to that species, the population status, um, the population growth or decline. And, and the habitat, the availability of the quality and quantity of the habitat for that species. Mm-hmm. Um, and determine if it's warranted for listing. And once they are listed, a whole host of amazing protections come into place.

20:46 You have the requirement to designate critical habitat. You have a prohibition on what is called take of species, which is a technical definition, but it pretty much means, you know, anything that might harm harass, you can't hunt any of those, and it's pretty broad definition of what it means to take a species and you can't even attempt to do those things. That is also prohibited. So you get this very broad, uh, protections right away when a species is listed. And it also requires the development of recovery plans. So putting together that roadmap Yes. Looking holistically at the species, what does it need to come back from the brink of extinction? And so that's sort of the, in the nutshell of, uh, yeah, what the Endangered Species Act does when looking at specific species.

21:32 Uh, recovery plans are such an important part of that act. You know, something that as a scientist, I always, I always acknowledge because, you know, with, you could put something, an animal on a list and say, Hey, we, we can't do anything, you know, further to, you know, decrease this population size or, or harm this animal or harass this animal in any kind of way. Whether we mean to or not. We have to really, you know, focus on this. Um, but. Yeah, that doesn't necessarily help them recover. It could stop the harm and it can stop, maybe a decrease or slow down, a decrease, but there's always something there that will harm the animal, especially with all the cumulative impacts that we see with animals. Not just one thing. One thing might be accelerating the decrease, but it's not only just just one thing, and to have a recovery plan in place to identify all these different effects, to identify all these different influences to identify.

22:22 If we stop this, what do we need to do? Is there a repopulation aspect to it? Is it just a protection? Is it like protecting specific habitat? What habitat to protect? And I always find it interesting because. Uh, when governments come in and they want to develop natural resources, or they want to develop a piece of land or a piece of water, and they, you know, the Endangered Species Act sort of, you know, quote unquote slows them down as they like to say, uh, which is way I always find ironic because that's the whole point, is to not jump into decisions and, and look at what's there. Uh, you know. The recovery plan is there to stop those efforts from happening and, and slow down those efforts from happening so that these animals can be protected and these habitats can be protected, not just the animals.

23:08 And I think we, we know that you mentioned that too, it's looking at habitat availability, food availability, and so forth. It's such an important aspect to that when it comes to the Endangered Speech Act. From a legal aspect, what have you found in your experience? Get like people try to cir circumvent the most when it comes to the act or just maybe not the most, but just some of the items they try and circumvent even though it's part of the legislation. Well, I think the, um. You know, looking at, uh, any sort of activity that might impact a species, um, there is going to be an assessment of what needs to be done to protect that species from that impact.

23:50 Yeah. And I don't know, you know, that we see a whole lot of, um, people necessarily trying to violate that, but maybe it's skirt, the requirements from. You know, uh, not wanting, making, making it go faster, making sure that we see, um, a faster result to get their permit, which might have mitigation measures in place, right? Mm-hmm. That might be, Hey, we, we, you need to do some mitigation work here to ensure you don't have impact this species. Maybe it's that you don't fish in a certain area because that is. That area is important for this species, um, for feeding or breeding or any other number of reasons. Um, so I don't know that there's a lot of intentional trying to skirt the act, but certainly as you said, we hear that people want to move faster and not, not stand in the way of development.

24:39 Um, I think it's important to note though that, you know, endangered species and, and species generally biodiversity has such a large economic impact. And so it's not just about the, the economic impact side of development and progress in that way, but also just the value that we have, um, for these species, both from an ecotourism perspective and the broader benefit. If you save one species, that can have cascading effects for a whole ecosystem. That might not even be, you know, apparent at the start. Absolutely. Can you talk a little bit about, maybe an example of something that Oceania has worked on in the past, uh, in regards to the Endangered Species Act?

25:21 Just to give us a little taste of, of what type of work that's been done, uh, to uphold, you know, the, the Endangered Species Act when it comes to a, a particular species. Absolutely. We do a lot of work with endangered species. Um, on the East coast. We work with North, north Atlantic, right whales, which are really critically endangered. They have very low population levels right now and we have been working to slow vessels down, um, and getting a vessel speed rule because that's one of the main threats to species, as well as working on getting rope list gear or pop-up gear in place in the lobster fishery. So making sure that whales don't get entangled in gear, which is also a major threat. Mm-hmm. So those are two regulatory things we've been trying to work on to help protect that species.

26:07 And out on the West coast out here, we have worked with, um, on Southern Resident. Uh, killer whales, right, both from petitioning to ensure that critical habitat was designated for that species because just because a species is listed, we don't always see the concurrent listing of critical habitat with that species. Yeah, sometimes it takes an additional step. To ensure that that gets designated. So Ocean has petitioned the agency to ensure that critical habitat gets designated for certain species. Mm-hmm. And also to make sure prey availability. So Southern residents are pretty specific feeders they like. Salmon, very specific salmon. So we have worked at the Regional Fishery Management Council to ensure there's a salmon threshold mm-hmm.

26:53 Where salmon, enough salmon gets left in the water for those orcas to eat and survive. So there's a, there's several different other examples I could provide as well where we have worked on, um, right. Protecting endangered species sort of on the ground in those ways and getting more protections in place and using those. Guideposts of the law to make sure that we're protecting those species and that they can have a chance to recover. Yeah, you mentioned something that was really interesting to me. Petitioning the, like the government to mm-hmm. Either put in this, this concurrent protections of, you know, adding critical habitat. 'cause sometimes, like, let's be honest, you know, I've worked in government before and, and there are sometimes where there are resources that are allocated based on, uh, prioritization of the, of the government that's in play at that time.

27:38 And so some, some species might get more, uh, love than, than others. And sometimes things get lost in the mix and. That when you look at the recovery plans and what needs to be designated and the, and what you need to follow from the law, it doesn't always get done. Not necessarily to say that it's, you know, that government that's trying not to put those in. Sometimes it's just the resources are spread too thin and, and they, and they have to do that. But, but other times it's, it's nefarious. Other times they want to keep something out because they wanna develop something and they just slow their role in terms of, of, of trying to get stuff done. So it, it goes both ways. Um, but when you petition a, a government to do this type of work, can you just talk a little bit of what that process looks like, um, from a legal framework?

28:21 Sure. Well, under the Endangered Species Act, anyone can petition the, a, an agency to list a species. So at a very. Basic level of getting a species onto a list, now you're gonna wanna provide a lot of scientific backing mm-hmm. For why you believe that's warranted. Um, but you can, anyone can petition the agencies to list a species. And so that is a very important tool when we do see that. You know, as we, as we know right now, agencies are under-resourced and underfunded, and they don't necessarily have the time and resources to go do a assessment for every species. But organizations and people working on the ground might have that information and be able to petition the agency.

29:05 And they will turn around and, and do a 90 day finding, saying, is there substantial information here that we, mm-hmm. That we think is warranted to move to the next step, which is a 12 month finding on whether or not that species should be added to the endangered species list. So that's one place you could petition the agency. Another is petitioning for designation of critical habitat. So a species might be listed, but again, not have that associated habitat, which we know is so important. And which in itself has protections against, you know, being impacted by actions of the federal government and private actors. So really important piece that doesn't always get designated right away. And so we have to go to the agency with proper information saying, here's the, the science we have on where this species uses, what habitat the species uses, where it's at.

29:55 And petition the agency to then designate that, which again triggers additional protections for those areas. Um, so a couple different places to petition. Yeah, I think it's really interesting, uh, a couple things that stood out to me in your answer there, because a, a lot of us, you know, who are not part who, who may not be in the industry, like, or, or in a group like Oceana, we might be following, you know, the emails and things like that. But it really goes to show how much the staff. At, at these nonprofit organizations, these environmental organizations watch and research what's being done at, at every different level and every different aspect. The amount of meticulous work that goes in to be like, okay, so this, this species isn't listed, but we've seen, you know, we've read the science, we're working with scientists, we've talked to scientists, we've built relationships within the community.

30:47 We know this species is decreasing. Let's examine whether it needs to to be listed and let's do the work and then present it to the government Almost. Not to say they do the work for them, but give the background information and provide a case to do that. That's like one thing, but also looking at the species that are, have been listed and making sure that the government has everything that they need, all the tools in the right place and published at the same time, and making sure that it's all done, that's required under that law, uh, takes a lot. Of, of effort and it, and it takes a lot of of time to engage with, with the government, uh, entities who are in charge of that.

31:27 Um, like how, like I know Oceania, you guys are, you guys are big in the us We have, we have, uh, uh, an affiliate I guess, or, uh, an Oceania Canada here in, in, in Canada. And I know they're not a large organization, but they get a, like in terms of staff members, but they get a lot done. Oceania in the us I know it's like the, the, the, the main like headquarters in the, like it's where it began and, and so, so forth. How big is your staff to be able to look at all these different aspects? You guys must be putting in a ton of work, and I know it's not like a huge staff, that's why I'm asking. Yeah. Well, I would hear on the West coast, our Pacific team, which I'm a part of, right, is just, uh, about 10 people.

32:09 So we are, we are quite small and mighty for a organization that works in. Four states at two regional fishery management councils at the federal level weighs in on federal legislation, state legislatures. So it is quite a lot a big body of work for just a, a small team out here. Yeah. Um, and similarly on the east coast, we have teams that work on various different issues, but you would be, you would be shocked that, uh, the amount of work that everyone's able to get done with the teams we have. Yeah. Um, and to your point, we, we are very lucky. I work with, with several scientists. Um, we have a science team as well, right. But on our Pacific team, we have several scientists who are just invaluable to building.

32:52 Any case that I might bring is gonna have to have that scientific backing. Anything we're petitioning the government for, we're gonna have to have that science backing. And that is mm-hmm. That is required by the Endangered Species Act and is one of the most important pieces is that these things must be based on the best. Science available. Yeah. And that's, that's a really important thing and, and that we can uphold in court as well. Yeah, uh, definitely. And I, I just wanted to shout that out because it, it is something that I, I don't think people realize. I think they see the name, you know, like the Oceania is the Conservation Internationals, and they see it's a big name. They do a lot of stuff. It's not always like the massive buildings where, you know, they have hundreds of people that are working, like you said, 10 people that are looking over four states, two, you know, uh, fishing, regional councils and so forth.

33:37 And you're just like. Wow. Like that's a, that's a lot of work. I, I give kudos to, to everybody there. But it's also the partnerships that you guys make as well, right? Like you have scientists on staff, but you also have partnerships with other scientists, with other nonprofit organizations where you make coalitions. And how important is that, those types of relationships to the work that you all do to get, you know, the same solu to the same solution? It's invaluable. Our working with other NGOs, with industry. With, um, decision makers, we, we, it's invaluable to have that Other scientists, scientists at the agencies, you know, we rely a lot on.

34:18 On external partners as well and right. The more of us there are, the stronger we are too. So, and the ability to work with industry on some issues and find a solution, be creative and find a solution that works for everybody, um, is, is really invaluable to be able to do that and try to bring together as many people as we can when we're forming coalitions. Bring together as many groups that have shared values and, and shared, um. And, and have a shared vision for how we might move forward on a specific issue. Absolutely. You mentioned industry, uh, obviously a very important part to conservation. A lot of industry has been blamed for, you know, some of the problems that we've seen, but they also play, uh, an integral role in the conservation because they're the ones who are out there.

35:05 You know, we talk about fishing, shipping, tourism, to just name three. Um, especially these days, you're on the west coast, you know, the West coast is being open even more now that the Northwest passage is is opening up. We're seeing a lot more shipping going forth. I know in Canada. There are specific laws enacted to manage a lot of the shipping that happens, even fishing and and so forth. Um, how does like the Endangered Species Act related, related decisions impact those industries? And then how do you work with, with those industries in order to mitigate those impacts and, and really fast track the, the recovery and the conservation of those species while balancing, you know, the sort of the, the.

35:48 The, the worries or the concerns of that, of that industry to make sure that they can still profit and they can still sustainably fish and, and, and do their work. Um, I think the fishing industry is a great example and partner, especially in the marine conservation world. Um, fishing entanglement and fishing gear is one of the primary threats to large whales, um, to like the Pacific Leatherback sea turtle. We know that that's a occurring and we have seen real efforts by the fishing industry in, in many fisheries. To modify their gear and to work with, uh, scientists and researchers to try to figure out how to reduce their take of endangered species.

36:28 Um, one great example off of the Oregon coast is the, um, pink shrimp fishery, which was catching a lot of endangered econ. And they worked with researchers and realized if they, um, put lights on their nets, they reduced their econ catch to almost nothing. I mean, it was like, it was phenomenal. Wow. The results. So a really simple change that led to a really great conservation outcome for the econ, worked for the fishery and made pink shrimp much more sustainable. Um, that's amazing. And similarly, um, in with the Green Sea turtle off the Atlantic Coast in Florida. You had actually both, uh, agencies, the Fish and Wildlife Service, and the National Marine Fishery Service working on conservation, um, of that species.

37:15 Fish and wildlife service on the beaches, helping, uh, prevent development on nesting beaches or mitigating for that and ensuring that we could bring back the, that important habitat for nesting. Mm-hmm. And in the ocean you had the fishery service working with the shrimp fishery to try to reduce their take of green sea turtles. And, you know, with pretty fabulous results, they were able to up list two of the populations in the Atlantic, including the one off the Florida coast. Um, and I believe the increase was something like almost no nests being seen in Florida to over 200,000 nests in recent counts. So really important by working with industry and identifying the problems for a species, we can, yeah, we can work on the solutions and try to be creative, um, in the fishing industry with modifying gear.

38:04 Another great example as I mentioned, is rope list that is being tested off both the east and west coast right now and in Canada to try to get less entanglement, um, for those large whales in pot fisheries. It, these conservation stories, these success stories are just phenomenal. Like to see, as you mentioned, the green sea turtle increase in nests going from like almost zero to over 200 nests. Like, you know, across the, the, the southeast, uh, coastline is absolutely phenomenal. Uh, we've seen other conservation stories. The humpback whale on the west coast has had a significant increase in population over the last, you know, 20 or 30 years. And I, and I feel like it's, it's because of this legislation when they're, when you're put on the Endangered Species Act, you, you have to put in these recovery plans.

38:50 It forces governments, it forces organizations, and it, and it triggers. Money and attention to those specific, you know, species in order to get them off the list wherever they are. I mean, I think, you know, one thing we haven't really dove into, but we, I can dive into in the intro is the, the level of, you know, like you're looking at near extinction, um, you know, you're looking at, uh, you're looking at, um, endangered, vulnerable, you know, least concern. These are all different. Types of, of settings on the list, let's just say, and, and it's like the scale, the closer you are to extinction, the worse it is. But if you're like least vulnerable, you know, something like, oh yeah, or least concerned.

39:30 We're not totally concerned, but we're watching, you know, we're watching the species because there's, there seems to be a trend here and, and, and we need to watch, and you mentioned the green sea sea turtle getting up listed twice, meaning that it's, you know, it's getting less and less, uh, towards extinction and more and more towards like, uh, getting off the list. Um, you know, it's, it's interesting when we talk about. This up, you know, up listing and then even getting off the list. It takes a lot to take an animal off the list, a species off the list because there's so much protection in there. We wanna make sure that it's good to go. Um, do you find, have you ever had to battle or go to litigation, I shouldn't say battle, go to litigation? Uh, when, for a species that were a, maybe a government entity or someone else wants to take a species off list 'cause they think it's doing well, just so that they can get.

40:19 Something, something done, you know, from a development aspect, have you ever had to do that with Oceania or hear of anybody having to do that? Yeah. I personally have not had to, uh, fight over delisting, but there have, have been moves to delist many species. I think wolves is a primary example. Mm-hmm. Um, there have also been efforts to overrule specific species listing through Congress. So to get an actual amendment for a species. Um, one of the most famous is one of the first, which was really the snail darter, which was holding up the Teleco Dam, um, that the Tennessee Valley Authority was building. And that case went out all the way up to the Supreme Court. Um, and then Congress like passed a, a bill to allow the dam to be built and they actually moved the snail darter out of the river 'cause it was gonna be flooded, um, and to other, other areas.

41:09 I ended up finding the species and more and more rivers after that. Um, but you know, there have been attempts to sort of skirt around the requirements of listing or to get species, uh, attempts to get species delisted. Yeah. And you can petition the agency to delist a species. So just as we were talking about petitioning the list and recently I think it was. I might get the date wrong, but, um mm-hmm. The snail darter was actually delisted. Okay. Um, several years ago now. And that was petitioned by, um, you know, some of the original people who had got the species listed. Okay. And so it took a long time, but that snail darter came back and they were able to actually petition a delist, the species.

41:49 So yeah, we, it can go both ways, but um, yeah, delisting is. Something that it is a big decision. And just as with listing, we're looking at the whole species. So sometimes it might feel like a species is increasing, shouldn't it be off the list? But there it might be that the threats are still so severe or their habitat is still too degraded that we are, we are concerned that that species not going to recover. And so that's again that holistic look at the species. So it might feel like sometimes we should be. You know, moving towards delisting and the agency's required to review those every five years. Yeah. Um, and even after delisting, they have to continue to monitor that species for, for five years after.

42:34 So we really do wanna make sure we're making the right decisions here and. With about a third of the biodiversity in the us uh, estimated to be at, you know, at threat right now at risk. I think we're, you know, if anything, we're going to be seeing more listings of species, you know, and we need more resources for our agencies to be doing that. More biologists, more scientists, to be gathering the data, to be writing the recovery plans for these species and to make sure that we're staying on top of that real biodiversity loss that we're seeing. Uh, so important. I mean, we've, we've talked about, you know, why the Endangered Species Act is in place and how important what, what role and what an important role it plays.

43:18 It just goes to show with that darter you mentioned of, of, you know, like somebody could have just said, we're not gonna move this species. We're just gonna build the dam. If it wasn't on the list, and that species would've, could've been gone, but they had, they were forced to move it. And all of a sudden it, it does well, uh, in other, in other river systems. And it, and it and it, uh, and it doesn't even so, so well that it can be delisted. Having these types of laws in this type of legislation plays such an important role in the recovery 'cause it forces us to pay attention. It forces to slow down any kind of development that might affect that population or that species, wherever it is, whether it's oceans, rivers, lakes, wherever, or even on the ground. And it's such an important aspect of it and it's why that.

43:59 You know, delisting is such a hard thing to do 'cause we're very cautious when we do it. Uh, and, and you know, we, we make sure that governments play their role and do what they need to do. And, you know, obviously we're, we're recording this in a time where government resources are, are very thin right now on purpose. Uh, and it's a, it's trying to allow fossil fuels and other types of natural resource development to happen faster. And this is why they do it. And we need to, um, do as much as we can to ensure that. Um, organizations like Oceania Pay can pay attention and to say, Hey, you know, hold the governments accountable, making sure they're working with government as an industry to say, we can still do this, and, and it still needs to be done because it's part of our laws.

44:43 One thing we haven't talked about. Is your constituency with, with Oceania. The people, the people who are listening to this episode, uh, listen to this podcast. They always want to get involved. They always want to be able to do something. And I know this is something that is, is difficult for people to completely relate to. You know, when we talk about issues like plastic pollution, we can probably play more of a. Of a short, shorter term role by reducing our own single use plastics in our household and our daily lives. But working with, you know, and trying to, uh, support work with Endangered Species Act is, is difficult for people to maybe wrap their head around because it's that such a, a different, it's kind of like disconnected from our daily lives. How would you suggest, Tara, that we could like, uh, the just people, whether they live in the US or they live outside the US in their own countries, how can they play a role in.

45:31 Uh, helping out organizations like yourselves or even just in individually being able to hold governments accountable to, to the ESA? Well, one great thing about the ESA is that it has a citizen provision. So if you ever feel that the law is being violated, you can actually bring, uh, litigation even against the government if you feel that the ESA is being violated. Now, that's an extreme step, but that is of course one of the great things that we love about the ESA as lawyers. Um, but also contact your elected officials. Let them know why you care about these species. You know, what they mean to you. The southern residents off our coast, the southern resident orcas off our coast here, have such deep cultural significance in the Pacific Northwest.

46:16 Legislators need to hear about that. You know, Congress works for us here in the United States. We, we elect them to work for us, and they need to hear that you care about this. Mm-hmm. There are. Continued threats to the Endangered Species Act. We have seen many different efforts to weaken the regulation, weaken the law, um, you know, business and industry wants to push these through so that they don't have to change or modify or halt their developments. We've seen those sort of pushes in Congress and we need our constituency, this constituency to be speaking up and make sure Congress hears from you from the other side to say no. Species have value and they add to our economy. Yeah. I think we have a, you know, we have a billion dollar whale watching tourism industry in this country.

47:00 That is nothing to, you know, that's, that's a really important stat and a very important driver of our economy. So, um, just making sure that they hear from you and they hear that other side of the economic argument on, you know, why this matters, um, and why it's really part of our cultural heritage here as Americans. I love that. Thank you so much, Tara. This has been a pleasure to have you on the podcast. It's such a, uh, you play such an important role in, in working with Oceania and helping us not only in, in terms of the courts when you need to, when you need to battle, but also, you know, making sure that you know, everybody is following the law, the right law, the Endangered Species Act, and other laws that. Are enacted in the US and we really appreciate the, the hard work that you and your fellow, uh, colleagues at, at Oceania do each and every day.

47:44 So thank you so much for coming on the podcast and, and letting us know. We'd love to invite you back and to talk more about what you do in, in different aspects. Maybe, uh, aside from the, the Endangered Species Act and talk about plastics next time, um, like I did with your colleague Christie Levitt. So it'd be a lot of fun to to have you back on, and thank you so much for, for being here. Thank you for having us and for anyone that wants to learn more, please go to oceania.org. We have tons of ways to get involved. Take action. Join our our Wavemaker list. We'd love to have you in this movement. That's awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you, Tara, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. It was great to be able to hear about all the success that Ocean has had and all of the work that is done to put into protecting specific species that are on the endangered species list, and even trying to get some that need to be on that list.

48:34 And I just think it's phenomenal. I think the conservation success stories that have come from endangered species, not only in the US but all over the world, is really, really. Important to acknowledge that this is a tool that works. These tools bring back species if they are done properly, and organizations like Oceana ensure that the government is held accountable for that recovery process to happen. Something in that I always value with the Endangered Species Act, whether it's in US, Canada, or elsewhere. Is that the recovery documents or the recovery process that have to be done for every species, these recovery documents are extremely important to make sure that these species have a plan and can come back from that plan. It's really, really important to have that, and it's really great to see Oceano hold in the government to account by that, by putting in petitions to ensure that they have these produced, and I think it's great.

49:24 Oceania does this all over the world, not just in the us, but we're focusing on the US today. But if you're in a country that has Oceania I, I highly recommend that you look up their site. If you go to the main site, oceania.org, you can probably get to their affiliates. It's just amazing. A lot of times if it's, it's in a specific country, you could put Oceania in the country like Oceania, Canada and Google, and it'll come up. Or if you're in Europe, you can do Oceania Europe and it'll come up as well. Oceania UK I think is a separate one now, but it's really great to see Oceania do such great work. Tara, I wanna thank you so much for joining us. You were great to have on, looking forward to having you back on to talk more about litigation, more about avoiding litigation to get these projects done and help the government, you know, be held accountable and ensure that these species are protected, whether it's the Endangered Species Act or other laws like, you know, looking after marine protection from marine pollution.

50:12 So. Always wonderful to have somebody from Ocean and especially Tara. It was great meeting and great introducing to my audience. I can't wait for you to come back. If you're listening to this or you're watching this on YouTube, you have any questions, I would love to hear from you or you have any comments or anything like that, please let me know. You can get access to me by DMing me on Instagram at How to Protect the Ocean, or you can just leave a comment in the YouTube comment. Or you can go to speak up for blue.com/contact. That's it. Speak up for blue.com/contact. Fill the form, goes right to my personal email and try and answer them as soon as possible. And again, I wanna thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from the true nor strong and free.

50:52 Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.