Octopus Ocean Book: Exploring the Genius Minds Beneath the Waves with Mark Leiren-Young

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There are so many ocean animals out there

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that have cool characteristics.

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They have personalities.

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They have these evolutionary attributes

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that make them really

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cool to look at and really

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cool to understand.

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And they have this ability to connect

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with us, with humans, and

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make us feel in a different

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sort of way.

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Like just emotionally happy, sometimes

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sad, and sometimes you

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just connect with you when

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you don't realize it.

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And that's who we're

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going to talk to today.

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We're actually going to talk to Mark

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Lanyon, who is an author, a

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screenwriter, a playwright,

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a filmmaker, who's made a name for

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himself, writing and doing

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videos and movies upon orcas,

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on sharks, and now on octopuses.

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And we are going to talk to his new book,

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Octopus Ocean, on

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today's episode of the How

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to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome back to another

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exciting episode of the How

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to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

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And this is the podcast where you find

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out what's happening

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with the ocean, how you can

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speak up for the ocean and what you can

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do to live for a better

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ocean by taking action.

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On today's episode, we're going to be

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talking about a new book

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that Mark Lanyon has written.

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It's called Octopus Ocean.

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It is the geniuses of the deep.

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He talks about his

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connection to octopuses.

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He talks about not only his connection,

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but just to the ocean

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environment, into the animals

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that live in the ocean environment.

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He lives out in BC.

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He's got a very interesting connection to

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the orcas out in BC.

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He talks about that connection and just

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like it's an emotional

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connection that not only

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he's had, but he said

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many people that he's met.

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And I've met too, who you see when people

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watch these orcas and see these orcas and

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see how phenomenal they are just by

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spotting them, it

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overtakes them with emotion.

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Happiness, sadness, just this

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bewilderment of watching

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these orcas do their thing.

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And the stories that he has, you are

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going to want to watch.

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He teaches storytelling.

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He tells stories in such a magical way

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that I wanted you to

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be able to hear this.

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So here is the interview with Mark Lanyon

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talking about octopus ocean and orcas and

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all these different animals and wonderful

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connection to these animals.

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Here's the interview.

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Enjoy and I'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Mark, welcome to the how

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to protect the ocean podcast.

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Are you ready to talk

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about octopus ocean?

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Absolutely.

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All right.

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On.

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I am looking forward to this.

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This has been a long time coming.

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You and I have been

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planning this for a while.

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I, you are a fellow podcaster.

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Skana is the podcast that I was actually

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a guest on, which was a lot of fun back.

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I think it was in the summer.

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Was it released?

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Is that yeah, it was in the summer.

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So that was a lot of fun.

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And so it's always nice to, to be able to

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interview another podcaster.

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So that was one of the reasons we had you

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on, but also you are a, an author and you

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have a new book out that we're going to

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talk about called octopus ocean.

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And we love talking about octopus and we

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love talking about the ocean in general.

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So we're going to talk about podcasting.

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We're talking about the ocean.

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We're talking about writing, talking

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about works for the ocean.

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And I think it's going to be a lot of

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fun, but before we get

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into all that fun stuff,

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Mark, why don't you just let the audience

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know who you are and what you do?

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Wow.

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I am a writer.

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I read all sorts of different things.

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I've never sure that it's so funny

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because for the how to

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protect the ocean podcast,

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I feel like it's just like, yeah, I read

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lots of stuff about

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oceans because I really

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do. I, my life was, my life was taken

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over by orca's back in

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2015 and they have not

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let up. And like basically it's like,

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yeah, I, I belong to J-pod at this point.

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And, uh, but that turned into books about

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sharks that turned into this new book,

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but octopuses, I've got another book

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coming out next year that was the main

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reason I wanted to interview you because

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it's all about how to protect the oceans.

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But for kids, I'm like,

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I have to talk to you.

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You are the how to protect the ocean guy.

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And you are the only person who's not a,

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who's not like a youth activist who I've

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currently quoted in the

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book, assuming you make it.

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Wow.

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Thank you.

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Thank you very much.

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I was like, I have to quote the guy who

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runs the how to

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protect the ocean podcast.

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He had the how to protect

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the oceans for kids book.

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It's in the name. It's in

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the name. It kind of goes.

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Yeah.

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Right. I love that. Um, you know, it's a

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lot of fun when we, we, uh, we talk to

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authors because a lot of the authors that

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we've actually talked to

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come up with like textbooks.

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You know, I had a Dr. David Ebert on here

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a number of times. He's written, I think

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it was over 35 tech textbooks. Uh, we've

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had David Schiffman, which is a bit of a

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textbook and kind of every day.

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Also wonderful intro to sharks.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly. A perfect one to

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sharks. Um, so we had a lot of people on

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that, that have different books on being

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activists and, and, uh, you know, about

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climate change and growing up with

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climate change and

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all that kind of stuff.

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And it's a lot of fun, but it's a lot of

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fun when you have someone who's just

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dedicated and you've written multiple

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books on the ocean. So let's just start

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off right from the beginning. I want to

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get to know you a little bit.

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I want the audience to get to know you a

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little bit. Where did this passion for

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the ocean come from?

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Wow. This is where my life gets totally

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confusing for most people. And because

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you're you, I'll give you more context

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that I don't like it.

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Please.

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Yes. Well, I've always people now assume

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that I've got a background like you or

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David Schiffman or something that I've

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got a background in at the very least a

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background in science.

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Yes.

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You know, I've got much more of a

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background in comedy. I've got much more

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of a background in theater. I've got a

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degree in theater and creative writing. I

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went to an event where I was speaking to

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the Marine Mammal Symposium at the

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University of British Columbia.

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And I went, I think I'm the old, not only

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do I think I was the only speaker who

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wasn't an ologist in a Marine related

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profession. I was definitely the only

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person there with a master of fine arts.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Like, you know, yeah, like one.

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Three hundred people there. I'm pretty

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sure I'm the only one who's positive.

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Yeah. I guess a safe bet. So weirdly,

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where my life took a very interesting

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left turn was I was writing for Maclean's

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magazine a jillion years ago.

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Wow.

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And I was writing a story from Maclean's

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on the never ending battle at the time

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over cetaceans in captivity, vinca record

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and for any of the listeners who do not

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know this Maclean's used to be a very,

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very, very big deal.

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Oh, this is huge.

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It was like Time

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magazine for Canada, really.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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And I was used to writing for regional

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publications. I'd written for a lot of

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stuff in B.C. I've written for like most

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the alternate weeklies, but writing for

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Maclean's was pretty posh.

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And I realized very quickly that I could

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talk to anybody I wanted to because I

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could just say, hi, I'm Mark. I'm voting

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for Maclean's and suddenly I took

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politicians. I could talk to celebrities

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like when I was doing the clean story.

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So that who's the guy

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to talk to about orcas?

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Yeah, Paul Watson.

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Yes, I. So I called Paul Watson, you

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know, who at that time, man, thinking he

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see shepherd at the time.

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So it was just left green.

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Was he did he leave

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green piece at that point?

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I'm not sure what the math was, but I'm

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pretty sure he was running the sea

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shepherd at that time because he left

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green piece when I was pretty young.

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But I asked him about orcas, captivity,

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then cream and the time captivity was so

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not his issue, right? Like he's he's

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become more passionate about it now.

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But at the time, he's like really wild

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whales from a thing. I'm really not your

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guy. But did you know the bank for query

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was the first place ever to

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capture and display an orca?

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And no, how do I not know that? And they

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said, did you know

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that harpoon that orca?

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I was like, God is amazing. How do I not

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know that? And I did two things that

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broke. I mean, I was a professional

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freelancer. I made my living writing for

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newspapers and magazines

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doing freelance stories.

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And I did two things freelancers do not

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do one. I have no idea why for the life

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of me. I still don't know why decades

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later. But I decided that the story of

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this or can captivity was for me. It

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wasn't for my clients.

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Okay.

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For I don't know why I did that. I was

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just like, No, I'm not wasting this in

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01:08:41,500 --> 01:08:43,500
this right up on cetaceans and captivity.

275
01:08:43,500 --> 01:08:46,625
I went, I need to know more about this.

276
01:08:46,625 --> 01:08:48,416
And that was the other thing they did

277
01:08:48,416 --> 01:08:52,000
that freelancers do not do. I decided I

278
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:52,833
was gonna look into this

279
01:08:52,833 --> 01:08:54,750
with nobody paying me for it.

280
01:08:55,208 --> 01:08:57,708
Yeah, passion project at this point.

281
01:08:57,708 --> 01:08:59,083
I was just like, I need to know more

282
01:08:59,083 --> 01:09:01,916
about this. And so I tracked down Dr.

283
01:09:02,166 --> 01:09:04,166
Marie Newman, who at that time had been

284
01:09:04,166 --> 01:09:06,125
retired from the Vancouver crane for some

285
01:09:06,125 --> 01:09:09,333
time. And I said, would you talk to me

286
01:09:09,333 --> 01:09:13,583
about this orca you captured? And he's

287
01:09:13,583 --> 01:09:15,208
like, yeah, it was an accident. The orca

288
01:09:15,208 --> 01:09:16,875
was named Moby doll. But the first thing

289
01:09:16,875 --> 01:09:20,666
he does is he breaks open this book from

290
01:09:20,666 --> 01:09:22,541
1964, the same year that they

291
01:09:22,541 --> 01:09:23,083
accidentally caught Moby.

292
01:09:23,125 --> 01:09:26,500
And he reads me this passage. And I'm

293
01:09:26,500 --> 01:09:28,375
gonna badly paraphrase this. There was a

294
01:09:28,375 --> 01:09:30,000
period I could have done this dead on.

295
01:09:30,333 --> 01:09:33,125
But basically, it was lions, tigers and

296
01:09:33,125 --> 01:09:35,583
bears or fierce creatures, but far more

297
01:09:35,583 --> 01:09:38,166
dangerous, far more ferocious than any of

298
01:09:38,166 --> 01:09:42,000
these is the dreaded killer whale. Wow.

299
01:09:42,458 --> 01:09:47,000
This this was written by the top whale

300
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:51,083
expert in the US. And Marie Newman, as I found it later, still is the most important thing.

301
01:09:51,083 --> 01:09:55,000
And I found out later, studied trout. His

302
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:58,083
PhD thesis was trout. So he talked about

303
01:09:58,083 --> 01:10:00,291
learning more about orcas and he's like,

304
01:10:01,750 --> 01:10:04,250
not anybody can talk to you and said, you

305
01:10:04,250 --> 01:10:05,791
don't go near them. They will kill you.

306
01:10:06,166 --> 01:10:08,375
You get anywhere near an orca. Sorry.

307
01:10:08,750 --> 01:10:10,375
Anyone here killer whale. Nobody's using

308
01:10:10,375 --> 01:10:12,125
the term orca. No, it was all killer

309
01:10:12,125 --> 01:10:14,291
whale. All killer whale. So and you get

310
01:10:14,291 --> 01:10:15,458
anywhere near one of these killer whales,

311
01:10:15,833 --> 01:10:18,000
it will kill you. There were people who

312
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:18,791
are afraid that they

313
01:10:18,791 --> 01:10:20,083
would approach them on land.

314
01:10:20,083 --> 01:10:23,083
That if they got too close to shore, that

315
01:10:23,083 --> 01:10:25,208
killer whale is going to jump up like as

316
01:10:25,208 --> 01:10:28,000
scary as we think as scary as people

317
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:31,291
thought sharks were after jaws. That's

318
01:10:31,291 --> 01:10:33,833
how scary everybody seemed to think these

319
01:10:33,833 --> 01:10:37,125
orcas were back in the in the mid sixties

320
01:10:37,125 --> 01:10:40,500
blew my freaking mind. And then the more

321
01:10:40,500 --> 01:10:41,708
I learned about it, the more I went, oh

322
01:10:41,708 --> 01:10:45,000
my god, I've stumbled onto a real life

323
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:46,916
science fiction story. Now, science

324
01:10:46,916 --> 01:10:48,625
fiction is my thing. I went, yeah, I

325
01:10:48,625 --> 01:10:49,083
found the story of first consciousness.

326
01:10:49,125 --> 01:10:51,041
Story of first contact with an alien

327
01:10:51,041 --> 01:10:53,541
creature. And the other thing that I

328
01:10:53,541 --> 01:10:56,291
thought was this was the free willy era.

329
01:10:56,500 --> 01:10:59,041
So nobody wanted to hear a story about an

330
01:10:59,041 --> 01:11:03,166
orchid captivity. The where it wasn't

331
01:11:03,166 --> 01:11:05,791
this is monsters like, no, this was

332
01:11:05,791 --> 01:11:08,291
science happening in real time. This was

333
01:11:08,291 --> 01:11:11,750
discovery in real time. And I was

334
01:11:11,750 --> 01:11:15,416
obsessed with the story. I can't stress

335
01:11:15,416 --> 01:11:17,500
enough. I was having almost none of my

336
01:11:17,500 --> 01:11:18,083
pitches rejected this time. I was, I was like, no, I'm not.

337
01:11:18,083 --> 01:11:18,416
You know, I was going to do this. I was like, no, I was going to do this.
I was just, I was just like, no, I was like, I was getting the

338
01:11:18,416 --> 01:11:19,416
news back to this time. I was like,

339
01:11:19,416 --> 01:11:21,500
winning magazine awards on regular basis

340
01:11:21,500 --> 01:11:23,708
newspaper boards. I could not get anyone

341
01:11:23,708 --> 01:11:25,875
to let me write about this story. Really?

342
01:11:25,875 --> 01:11:27,166
Nobody was like nobody was interested?

343
01:11:27,750 --> 01:11:30,291
No, it was a history piece. I was dealing

344
01:11:30,291 --> 01:11:32,000
with a guy who I think was already in his

345
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:35,166
seventies. He was my nobody was into it

346
01:11:35,166 --> 01:11:37,500
at all. I could not solve anyone. Were

347
01:11:37,500 --> 01:11:40,375
you surprised by that? Yeah. So you were

348
01:11:40,375 --> 01:11:43,291
so interested. I well, I started going to

349
01:11:43,291 --> 01:11:45,000
people that I knew who made documentary

350
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:46,375
films and I went, you

351
01:11:46,375 --> 01:11:47,083
should do this. Yeah.

352
01:11:47,125 --> 01:11:50,125
like, not, I should do this because I'm

353
01:11:50,125 --> 01:11:51,250
not capable of this. I

354
01:11:51,250 --> 01:11:51,666
don't know how to make

355
01:11:51,666 --> 01:11:53,958
a documentary. And they were like, well,

356
01:11:53,958 --> 01:11:54,333
you're the one who's

357
01:11:54,333 --> 01:11:56,416
passionate about it. Let's pitch

358
01:11:56,416 --> 01:11:59,083
it. I had an Academy award winning

359
01:11:59,083 --> 01:12:00,750
documentary maker try and

360
01:12:00,750 --> 01:12:02,708
pitch this documentary. I had

361
01:12:02,708 --> 01:12:04,833
an Emmy award winning documentary maker

362
01:12:04,833 --> 01:12:06,000
and they just kept

363
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:06,958
running into you. It's not

364
01:12:06,958 --> 01:12:08,875
free willing. The story of what he wanted

365
01:12:08,875 --> 01:12:10,041
was people wise free

366
01:12:10,041 --> 01:12:11,625
willing free. They wanted

367
01:12:11,708 --> 01:12:13,083
free willy. They didn't want this history

368
01:12:13,083 --> 01:12:16,416
piece. And this is

369
01:12:16,416 --> 01:12:17,291
the third thing I did as

370
01:12:17,291 --> 01:12:19,791
a freelancer that there's no other story

371
01:12:19,791 --> 01:12:20,541
that I've ever stuck with

372
01:12:20,541 --> 01:12:22,166
like this. I kept trying

373
01:12:22,166 --> 01:12:24,166
to give it away because I kept saying

374
01:12:24,166 --> 01:12:25,500
somebody has to interview

375
01:12:25,500 --> 01:12:27,291
these key people because

376
01:12:27,291 --> 01:12:30,208
they're all really old and they just have

377
01:12:30,208 --> 01:12:31,000
to get the story.

378
01:12:31,500 --> 01:12:33,208
Yeah. Yeah. Because what

379
01:12:33,208 --> 01:12:34,750
I found out was that all of the

380
01:12:34,750 --> 01:12:35,500
interviews that were done

381
01:12:35,500 --> 01:12:37,875
with him all started from except

382
01:12:39,333 --> 01:12:40,583
for the stuff in the sixties, everything

383
01:12:40,583 --> 01:12:42,750
started from the premise of how could you

384
01:12:42,750 --> 01:12:44,791
do this horrible thing? Yeah. And they

385
01:12:44,791 --> 01:12:50,708
left out the context of in 1964 fishermen

386
01:12:50,708 --> 01:12:54,500
were shooting these orcas on site. We had

387
01:12:54,500 --> 01:12:57,833
a machine gun turret set up off the coast

388
01:12:57,833 --> 01:13:00,583
of Campbell River to slaughter killer

389
01:13:00,583 --> 01:13:04,708
whales. So this was the world in 1964.

390
01:13:04,708 --> 01:13:07,791
Yeah. And the idea that essentially

391
01:13:08,041 --> 01:13:13,000
really in days of the time Moby doll was

392
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:17,250
accidentally captured this shifted blew

393
01:13:17,250 --> 01:13:19,875
my mind. So I chased after this story.

394
01:13:20,416 --> 01:13:24,458
Like I looked this up. I actually reached

395
01:13:24,458 --> 01:13:27,208
out to Moby Dick scholars who went they

396
01:13:27,208 --> 01:13:30,583
figure a have chased Moby doll. Sorry, a

397
01:13:30,583 --> 01:13:32,958
have chased Moby Dick. Yeah. For three

398
01:13:32,958 --> 01:13:36,208
for three years max. Right. I chased I

399
01:13:36,208 --> 01:13:37,625
chased Moby doll for freaking decades.

400
01:13:38,041 --> 01:13:39,791
Before anybody would talk to me because I

401
01:13:39,791 --> 01:13:41,708
finally got Marie Newman to say I will

402
01:13:41,708 --> 01:13:44,583
I'll let you tell the story or sorry. I

403
01:13:44,583 --> 01:13:47,500
finally other way around. I finally

404
01:13:47,500 --> 01:13:49,083
figured out how I could do the

405
01:13:49,083 --> 01:13:50,458
interviews. I didn't know who was going

406
01:13:50,458 --> 01:13:52,666
to do them for but I made my own. I made

407
01:13:52,666 --> 01:13:54,250
a different movie. I made a feature film

408
01:13:54,250 --> 01:13:56,250
called the green chain. Oh, cameras

409
01:13:56,250 --> 01:13:59,416
aren't that scary. And I asked the camera

410
01:13:59,416 --> 01:14:01,208
man. I said, what would it cost? That

411
01:14:01,208 --> 01:14:03,041
could just book you for one day. I want

412
01:14:03,041 --> 01:14:04,958
to interview these old guys. I have no

413
01:14:04,958 --> 01:14:06,583
idea what I want to do with it, but I

414
01:14:06,583 --> 01:14:07,875
just need to interview with them. Just

415
01:14:08,041 --> 01:14:11,000
I can sleep at night. I know I need to

416
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:12,833
know somebody has protected the story.

417
01:14:13,083 --> 01:14:14,750
Right. And somebody's asked them stories

418
01:14:14,750 --> 01:14:18,083
in context and I get the camera man. He's

419
01:14:18,083 --> 01:14:20,791
a documentary guy has won awards and I'm

420
01:14:20,791 --> 01:14:22,333
so psyched and Marie Newman said, you

421
01:14:22,333 --> 01:14:23,708
know what? Every time I've opened my

422
01:14:23,708 --> 01:14:25,333
mouth, but Moby doll somebody calls me a

423
01:14:25,333 --> 01:14:27,041
monster. I've never talked about it

424
01:14:27,041 --> 01:14:31,291
again. No. Yeah. So I finally figured out

425
01:14:31,291 --> 01:14:34,541
how to do this. Yeah. And this is where I

426
01:14:34,541 --> 01:14:36,000
cross into a have

427
01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:37,750
territory because at this point,

428
01:14:38,000 --> 01:14:40,625
I am sending Marie Newman Christmas

429
01:14:40,625 --> 01:14:43,458
cards. Right. He is sending me

430
01:14:43,458 --> 01:14:46,000
relationship. He is sending me articles

431
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:48,583
about diving. He's like Mark, I will talk

432
01:14:48,583 --> 01:14:50,375
to you about anything in my entire

433
01:14:50,375 --> 01:14:53,625
career. Not just not Moby doll. And

434
01:14:53,625 --> 01:14:55,958
finally, there's a symposium on Saturna

435
01:14:55,958 --> 01:14:59,708
Island celebrating the legacy of Moby

436
01:14:59,708 --> 01:15:01,458
doll. It's like closing in the 50th

437
01:15:01,458 --> 01:15:03,666
anniversary and news. You know what?

438
01:15:03,666 --> 01:15:04,958
We'll do this. Let's do

439
01:15:04,958 --> 01:15:07,500
this. And so he invites me over.

440
01:15:08,750 --> 01:15:11,875
To his house and you can tell and this is

441
01:15:11,875 --> 01:15:14,750
a decade on easily since my first man. So

442
01:15:14,750 --> 01:15:17,916
he's long retired and he invites me over

443
01:15:17,916 --> 01:15:22,958
to his house and thank God. I had a

444
01:15:22,958 --> 01:15:24,458
producer who was a friend who went, you

445
01:15:24,458 --> 01:15:26,041
know what? I'm going to send a couple

446
01:15:26,041 --> 01:15:27,416
cameras with you. Let's see what happens.

447
01:15:27,958 --> 01:15:29,333
My wife came with a GoPro.

448
01:15:30,166 --> 01:15:32,500
Like we had cameras everywhere because

449
01:15:32,500 --> 01:15:34,500
what he did was he said, you know what? I

450
01:15:34,500 --> 01:15:35,750
think you should talk to everybody.

451
01:15:36,083 --> 01:15:39,000
So I show up and I arrive. He went from

452
01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:40,666
nine to 10 o'clock. You will talk. You

453
01:15:40,666 --> 01:15:43,000
will speak with me from 10 o'clock to 11.

454
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:45,458
You will speak to Dr. Pat McGeer, who was

455
01:15:45,458 --> 01:15:47,916
the neuroscientist who was the scientist

456
01:15:47,916 --> 01:15:50,166
in the expedition from 11. You will talk

457
01:15:50,166 --> 01:15:51,583
to the chief veterinarian from Vancouver.

458
01:15:51,958 --> 01:15:54,625
He'd lined up every from noon to one. We

459
01:15:54,625 --> 01:15:56,083
will have lunch. We were having tuna fish

460
01:15:56,083 --> 01:15:56,833
sandwiches and cookies.

461
01:15:59,875 --> 01:16:29,541
It was like a full day conference kind of thing for you. Here's my science background and my

462
01:16:29,541 --> 01:16:30,916
science background is really weird

463
01:16:30,916 --> 01:16:35,333
because my lab partner in chem 11. Dr.

464
01:16:35,708 --> 01:16:38,666
Bob, Dr. Robert is with the top AIDS

465
01:16:38,666 --> 01:16:42,833
researchers out there teaches at SFU now.

466
01:16:42,833 --> 01:16:46,375
Todd is you know like and I almost ruined

467
01:16:46,375 --> 01:16:48,791
his science career because I would make

468
01:16:48,791 --> 01:16:51,166
jokes. We would get projects. I would

469
01:16:51,166 --> 01:16:55,125
make jokes on them and the chem the chem

470
01:16:55,125 --> 01:16:55,875
teacher actually gave me a great year.

471
01:16:56,875 --> 01:16:58,208
And I was like, you cannot get anymore

472
01:16:58,208 --> 01:17:00,833
called a conditional pass and the

473
01:17:00,833 --> 01:17:02,750
condition was I never set foot in another

474
01:17:02,750 --> 01:17:08,916
science classroom. Right? So so that was

475
01:17:08,916 --> 01:17:14,333
my science background up until suddenly

476
01:17:14,333 --> 01:17:16,583
I'm in the middle of this. So I'm

477
01:17:16,583 --> 01:17:19,375
somewhere that science teachers like no,

478
01:17:19,375 --> 01:17:20,291
no, you're you're not for

479
01:17:20,291 --> 01:17:21,958
science article in Canada.

480
01:17:23,875 --> 01:17:26,208
And I did a story called the killer whale

481
01:17:26,208 --> 01:17:31,750
that changed the world for CBC radio for

482
01:17:31,750 --> 01:17:34,875
ideas and that won a Webster award and

483
01:17:34,875 --> 01:17:36,750
the night of the Webster awards and I'd

484
01:17:36,750 --> 01:17:38,708
pitch this to publishers for 20 something

485
01:17:38,708 --> 01:17:40,250
years night of the Webster

486
01:17:40,250 --> 01:17:41,333
awards publisher came up.

487
01:17:41,875 --> 01:17:43,666
I thought of doing a book and like, yeah,

488
01:17:44,166 --> 01:17:47,250
huh. She'd be like, no. And wrote the

489
01:17:47,250 --> 01:17:49,833
book and somebody that you will have

490
01:17:49,833 --> 01:17:51,500
heard of and I'm hoping your listeners

491
01:17:51,500 --> 01:17:54,416
are aware of Eric Hoyt was kind enough to

492
01:17:54,416 --> 01:17:56,000
read the book and blurt.

493
01:17:56,875 --> 01:17:59,166
Yeah, the biggest, you know, marine

494
01:17:59,166 --> 01:18:02,791
mammal scientist and the guy he's the

495
01:18:02,791 --> 01:18:05,875
guy. Yeah. Yeah. So he offers to read the

496
01:18:05,875 --> 01:18:08,583
book and he gets back to me and he said,

497
01:18:08,583 --> 01:18:10,416
I love it. I've only got one suggestion.

498
01:18:10,625 --> 01:18:12,291
What's that? He said, not the killer

499
01:18:12,291 --> 01:18:15,041
whale that changed the world. The killer

500
01:18:15,041 --> 01:18:17,166
whale who changed the

501
01:18:17,166 --> 01:18:19,833
world. So not and my.

502
01:18:20,875 --> 01:18:23,750
Yeah, my publishers went for it. I mean,

503
01:18:23,750 --> 01:18:25,916
even though we'd started publicizing even

504
01:18:25,916 --> 01:18:29,125
though CBC thing and one major award,

505
01:18:29,541 --> 01:18:32,291
they're like, we'll go with that. I'm I

506
01:18:32,291 --> 01:18:33,958
will be forever grateful to Eric, quite

507
01:18:33,958 --> 01:18:37,458
for that suggestion because that set me

508
01:18:37,458 --> 01:18:40,416
down an entire path of referring to

509
01:18:40,416 --> 01:18:43,708
animals as who not what he, she and they

510
01:18:43,708 --> 01:18:46,833
not it and realizing that's what Dr.

511
01:18:47,208 --> 01:18:51,000
Jane Goodall is into and you know, France

512
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:53,375
to wallow down throw put an aisle became

513
01:18:53,375 --> 01:18:57,125
an obsessed of mine. So that's where all

514
01:18:57,125 --> 01:18:59,291
that went and then what happened going

515
01:18:59,291 --> 01:19:01,958
back to the books orca publishing, which

516
01:19:01,958 --> 01:19:03,375
ironically does not publish a lot of

517
01:19:03,375 --> 01:19:05,791
books about orcas reached out to me and

518
01:19:05,791 --> 01:19:07,333
they're one of the top kids publishers in

519
01:19:07,333 --> 01:19:10,208
Canada and I'd known the publisher from

520
01:19:10,208 --> 01:19:12,458
my other life where I

521
01:19:12,458 --> 01:19:13,833
published funny stuff.

522
01:19:13,875 --> 01:19:16,666
Yeah, she said, would you be interested

523
01:19:16,666 --> 01:19:19,500
in doing a kid's book of the killer will

524
01:19:19,500 --> 01:19:21,708
have changed the world and I went to

525
01:19:21,708 --> 01:19:24,541
depressing a story. I mean, the whale,

526
01:19:24,791 --> 01:19:27,625
you know, Moby dies. Yeah, being

527
01:19:27,625 --> 01:19:30,083
harpooned. It is a sad freaking story.

528
01:19:30,625 --> 01:19:32,333
Like, sure. I do believe that will change

529
01:19:32,333 --> 01:19:35,291
the world, but it's a sad story. And I

530
01:19:35,291 --> 01:19:37,458
said, could I just do a story about all

531
01:19:37,458 --> 01:19:38,958
the amazing things I've learned about

532
01:19:38,958 --> 01:19:41,666
orcas since being thrown into this world?

533
01:19:41,666 --> 01:19:42,875
And she went absolutely.

534
01:19:43,875 --> 01:19:45,333
And that became workers everywhere and

535
01:19:45,333 --> 01:19:52,750
then I had I used to do a lot of

536
01:19:52,750 --> 01:19:55,708
interviews around movies. I covered the

537
01:19:55,708 --> 01:19:57,583
Toronto Film Festival for 20 years of the

538
01:19:57,583 --> 01:19:59,541
Georgia Strait of Vancouver, sometimes to

539
01:19:59,541 --> 01:20:01,666
think for some and one of the people I

540
01:20:01,666 --> 01:20:05,541
met actually I'd met him when my movie

541
01:20:05,541 --> 01:20:07,250
about forests, which

542
01:20:07,250 --> 01:20:10,458
was fictional was touring.

543
01:20:11,875 --> 01:20:12,000
And I was a little bit
of a fan of Rob

544
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:14,041
Stewart who made the movie Sharkwater.

545
01:20:14,041 --> 01:20:17,750
Yeah, and we kind of became friends and

546
01:20:17,750 --> 01:20:21,125
so I introduced his movies film festivals

547
01:20:21,125 --> 01:20:25,041
and we hung out a bit and he was actually

548
01:20:25,041 --> 01:20:27,291
set to write a blurb for the killer whale

549
01:20:27,291 --> 01:20:30,750
who changed the world and be one of my

550
01:20:30,750 --> 01:20:31,708
first guests on Skana.

551
01:20:35,875 --> 01:20:38,625
And I decided that the way to honor him

552
01:20:38,625 --> 01:20:42,916
on Skana and part of my podcast was to

553
01:20:42,916 --> 01:20:44,500
run some of the interviews I'd done with

554
01:20:44,500 --> 01:20:46,125
him over the years, even though they were

555
01:20:46,125 --> 01:20:47,125
never intended as audio.

556
01:20:47,875 --> 01:20:50,875
And I had I did that and somebody working

557
01:20:50,875 --> 01:20:53,833
on his posthumous movie reached out and I

558
01:20:53,833 --> 01:20:56,083
had no idea that you were so into him.

559
01:20:56,708 --> 01:21:00,208
Would you be willing to work on promoting

560
01:21:00,208 --> 01:21:06,375
his movie to NGOs and basically talking

561
01:21:06,375 --> 01:21:08,041
about the work politically?

562
01:21:08,875 --> 01:21:09,833
And I was like, Oh, you began to reach

563
01:21:09,833 --> 01:21:12,291
out and go, you know, these are the

564
01:21:12,291 --> 01:21:13,833
things that we would like

565
01:21:13,833 --> 01:21:15,416
to see happen to help sharks.

566
01:21:15,833 --> 01:21:19,333
It's like, oh, this is like, so yeah, the

567
01:21:19,333 --> 01:21:20,791
to be one of the best things that ever

568
01:21:20,791 --> 01:21:23,291
happened in the podcast was being invited

569
01:21:23,291 --> 01:21:25,458
to do that. Yeah, and

570
01:21:25,458 --> 01:21:27,666
the orcas everywhere.

571
01:21:28,875 --> 01:21:29,708
And you know, the first book for orcas

572
01:21:29,708 --> 01:21:32,541
also turned into a book, a baby book, a

573
01:21:32,541 --> 01:21:34,416
big whale, small world and a picture

574
01:21:34,416 --> 01:21:37,625
book, or because it's the other C, and

575
01:21:37,625 --> 01:21:39,875
orcas really happy and said, would you

576
01:21:39,875 --> 01:21:40,708
like do something else?

577
01:21:44,583 --> 01:21:45,916
I would like to write the book about

578
01:21:45,916 --> 01:21:47,791
sharks that Rob should have written.

579
01:21:48,458 --> 01:21:51,166
So that, and I reached out before saying

580
01:21:51,166 --> 01:21:52,041
yes, I reached out the

581
01:21:52,041 --> 01:21:53,000
shark water foundation.

582
01:21:53,666 --> 01:21:55,000
I went, do you think Rob's

583
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:56,166
parents will be cool with us?

584
01:21:56,916 --> 01:21:58,125
Would you guys be cool with this?

585
01:21:58,541 --> 01:22:00,250
And so that Rob's

586
01:22:00,250 --> 01:22:02,375
parents gave me their blessing.

587
01:22:03,250 --> 01:22:04,666
Shark water foundation gave me their

588
01:22:04,666 --> 01:22:07,041
blessing as access to their photos.

589
01:22:07,583 --> 01:22:08,125
Oh wow.

590
01:22:08,791 --> 01:22:10,000
All of these amazing photos.

591
01:22:11,875 --> 01:22:13,916
I also did a shark baby book, which was

592
01:22:13,916 --> 01:22:16,416
specifically because I

593
01:22:16,416 --> 01:22:17,708
wanted to get across that sharks

594
01:22:17,708 --> 01:22:18,916
are awesome, not scary.

595
01:22:19,583 --> 01:22:19,791
Yeah.

596
01:22:20,583 --> 01:22:20,791
Right.

597
01:22:21,875 --> 01:22:24,291
And then, one sec.

598
01:22:25,500 --> 01:22:28,166
And then, or I can say, so

599
01:22:28,166 --> 01:22:29,125
what else are you going to do?

600
01:22:29,125 --> 01:22:30,666
I'm like, I got nothing.

601
01:22:31,166 --> 01:22:33,458
This I keep, this isn't my world.

602
01:22:33,458 --> 01:22:34,708
I'm like a comedy writer.

603
01:22:35,166 --> 01:22:35,916
Please man.

604
01:22:36,958 --> 01:22:39,583
But my wife rain, who basically is

605
01:22:39,583 --> 01:22:40,416
responsible for me having

606
01:22:40,416 --> 01:22:43,208
the podcast to she did the tack

607
01:22:43,208 --> 01:22:44,375
and said, yeah, if you did

608
01:22:44,375 --> 01:22:45,791
the podcast, I'll do the tack.

609
01:22:45,791 --> 01:22:46,458
Okay.

610
01:22:47,458 --> 01:22:50,208
I said, you should do octopuses because

611
01:22:50,208 --> 01:22:51,708
octopuses are awesome.

612
01:22:52,708 --> 01:22:55,375
And so I came through so amazing.

613
01:22:56,208 --> 01:22:58,750
And so I came in octopuses completely

614
01:22:58,750 --> 01:23:01,833
cold beyond always, you

615
01:23:01,833 --> 01:23:02,500
know, whatever I'd gone

616
01:23:02,500 --> 01:23:04,083
to an aquarium as a kid, I would just

617
01:23:04,083 --> 01:23:05,333
obsess over watching them.

618
01:23:05,583 --> 01:23:06,083
Of course.

619
01:23:06,791 --> 01:23:07,958
Cause how do you not?

620
01:23:08,458 --> 01:23:08,625
Yeah.

621
01:23:08,875 --> 01:23:09,083
Right.

622
01:23:10,166 --> 01:23:11,458
And, but I came at

623
01:23:11,458 --> 01:23:15,041
their world completely cold.

624
01:23:15,500 --> 01:23:16,458
And again, that's where

625
01:23:16,458 --> 01:23:17,708
the podcast was a gift.

626
01:23:17,958 --> 01:23:20,541
So it, Oh, I will just interview octopus

627
01:23:20,541 --> 01:23:21,583
experts and I'll get

628
01:23:21,583 --> 01:23:22,500
them to tell me things.

629
01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:25,416
So I interviewed Simon, Montgomery, and

630
01:23:25,416 --> 01:23:26,958
they interviewed down a

631
01:23:26,958 --> 01:23:28,833
staff and just went, okay,

632
01:23:29,083 --> 01:23:30,041
tell me cool octopus things

633
01:23:30,041 --> 01:23:31,208
that kids would want to know.

634
01:23:31,208 --> 01:23:33,375
And I went to, I went to a local

635
01:23:33,375 --> 01:23:35,666
elementary school and what do you know?

636
01:23:36,375 --> 01:23:37,291
What do you want to know?

637
01:23:37,833 --> 01:23:39,666
And so that was just kind

638
01:23:39,666 --> 01:23:41,875
of fueled it all for you.

639
01:23:41,875 --> 01:23:42,083
Right?

640
01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:45,000
Yeah. But that was just pure research and fun.

641
01:23:45,916 --> 01:23:46,125
Right.

642
01:23:46,958 --> 01:23:51,666
But again, it's very odd sort of led like

643
01:23:51,666 --> 01:23:55,375
if, if like my career,

644
01:23:55,375 --> 01:23:56,625
my life has taken a lot

645
01:23:56,625 --> 01:23:57,416
of odd turns.

646
01:23:58,500 --> 01:23:59,791
I'm pretty sure no one could have

647
01:23:59,791 --> 01:24:02,125
predicted that 2015, I was

648
01:24:02,125 --> 01:24:02,958
going to write a book about

649
01:24:03,041 --> 01:24:07,000
orcas and 2025 that this is

650
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:08,041
still where I'd be playing.

651
01:24:08,500 --> 01:24:08,666
Yeah.

652
01:24:08,958 --> 01:24:11,041
I would still be talking about orcas.

653
01:24:11,041 --> 01:24:12,250
Still talking about the science.

654
01:24:12,875 --> 01:24:13,541
Oh yeah.

655
01:24:13,750 --> 01:24:15,916
My, my students, I teach courses in

656
01:24:15,916 --> 01:24:17,708
writing and pop culture

657
01:24:17,708 --> 01:24:18,958
and intro to fight hearts.

658
01:24:19,208 --> 01:24:20,083
And my students were like,

659
01:24:20,083 --> 01:24:21,291
you're the whale guy, right?

660
01:24:23,166 --> 01:24:25,041
Like my classes are on the marvel.

661
01:24:25,291 --> 01:24:26,750
I teach a storytelling course built

662
01:24:26,750 --> 01:24:27,250
around the marvel

663
01:24:27,250 --> 01:24:28,541
universe, a storytelling course

664
01:24:28,708 --> 01:24:29,875
built around the DC universe.

665
01:24:29,875 --> 01:24:31,708
Like you're the whale guy, right?

666
01:24:31,708 --> 01:24:32,458
You're the whale guy.

667
01:24:32,791 --> 01:24:33,125
Yeah.

668
01:24:33,125 --> 01:24:33,583
Now you got to switch

669
01:24:33,583 --> 01:24:35,083
your storytelling courses.

670
01:24:35,083 --> 01:24:37,458
You got to switch it to more of, uh, you

671
01:24:37,458 --> 01:24:39,000
know, of, of like, like

672
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:40,875
ocean stuff, you know, I

673
01:24:40,875 --> 01:24:41,208
try.

674
01:24:41,875 --> 01:24:44,666
I, I try.

675
01:24:44,666 --> 01:24:45,500
Am I intro to fine arts?

676
01:24:45,500 --> 01:24:48,541
I'm just like, yeah, I'm just like, yeah,

677
01:24:48,541 --> 01:24:49,875
we're going to talk about whales now.

678
01:24:50,166 --> 01:24:51,958
And like, if I let my students ask me

679
01:24:51,958 --> 01:24:53,708
questions, they now go,

680
01:24:53,708 --> 01:24:55,083
tell us more about sharks.

681
01:24:55,583 --> 01:24:57,250
But like, and I'll talk about like the

682
01:24:57,250 --> 01:24:58,625
studies on lemon sharks and friendship.

683
01:24:59,500 --> 01:24:59,625
Yeah.

684
01:25:00,083 --> 01:25:02,833
Like, what are the most like, what are

685
01:25:02,833 --> 01:25:03,416
the things that are

686
01:25:03,416 --> 01:25:04,625
most shocking to people?

687
01:25:04,625 --> 01:25:05,375
And that's what I go to.

688
01:25:05,375 --> 01:25:06,791
Like it's the stuff you cover, man.

689
01:25:07,125 --> 01:25:07,333
Yeah.

690
01:25:07,625 --> 01:25:09,750
Like it's why I love your podcast because

691
01:25:09,750 --> 01:25:12,125
you cover all of the, this stuff that's

692
01:25:12,125 --> 01:25:15,000
just unexpected, right?

693
01:25:15,125 --> 01:25:16,625
That sort of rakes the

694
01:25:16,625 --> 01:25:17,916
way we think things are.

695
01:25:18,291 --> 01:25:19,625
Well, I think, I think that's the thing

696
01:25:19,625 --> 01:25:21,500
is, is when you take all this

697
01:25:21,500 --> 01:25:22,500
information, there's one of the reasons

698
01:25:22,500 --> 01:25:24,541
why I do the podcast and you bring on

699
01:25:24,541 --> 01:25:26,625
people who you may or may not have heard

700
01:25:26,625 --> 01:25:27,916
of at some point in time.

701
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:29,000
And you talk about the

702
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:29,958
cool projects that they like.

703
01:25:29,958 --> 01:25:31,666
There are so many cool things and

704
01:25:31,666 --> 01:25:34,000
research and conservation projects and

705
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:36,625
impacts and channels like I just did.

706
01:25:36,625 --> 01:25:38,166
I just did an interview just before this

707
01:25:38,166 --> 01:25:40,916
on, you know, there's a guy who's in in

708
01:25:40,916 --> 01:25:44,083
in Australia who started an organization

709
01:25:44,083 --> 01:25:46,041
because he saw the Great Barrier Reef

710
01:25:46,041 --> 01:25:47,541
bleach 10 years ago.

711
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:49,333
And he wasn't happy about that.

712
01:25:49,333 --> 01:25:50,250
They needed more data.

713
01:25:50,250 --> 01:25:52,416
So he came up with a way to create an

714
01:25:52,416 --> 01:25:55,000
A.I. and use citizen scientists to

715
01:25:55,000 --> 01:25:57,791
basically, you know, determine and get

716
01:25:57,791 --> 01:25:59,666
more data just in terms of like three

717
01:25:59,666 --> 01:26:00,583
categories of reefs.

718
01:26:01,125 --> 01:26:02,708
And so now it's an app where you can

719
01:26:02,708 --> 01:26:04,458
actually just go and use the A.I. and you

720
01:26:04,458 --> 01:26:06,583
just need science to say, yes, this is

721
01:26:06,583 --> 01:26:08,708
rubble or yes, this is a branching coral.

722
01:26:08,708 --> 01:26:11,666
Yes, this is a a a

723
01:26:11,666 --> 01:26:13,000
boulder coral or whatever.

724
01:26:13,541 --> 01:26:15,208
And that information goes to university

725
01:26:15,208 --> 01:26:16,500
and they put that into a model.

726
01:26:16,500 --> 01:26:18,625
Like, how do you come up

727
01:26:18,625 --> 01:26:19,500
with this kind of stuff?

728
01:26:19,750 --> 01:26:21,166
And you don't do it until you start

729
01:26:21,166 --> 01:26:22,583
reaching out to people or they reach out

730
01:26:22,583 --> 01:26:25,083
to you and then you start talking to them

731
01:26:25,083 --> 01:26:26,291
about this kind of work.

732
01:26:26,291 --> 01:26:27,333
Right. And you never know

733
01:26:27,333 --> 01:26:28,458
who it's going to inspire.

734
01:26:28,458 --> 01:26:30,208
Like, just like he was in the Netherlands

735
01:26:30,208 --> 01:26:32,291
at the time where hearing about the Great

736
01:26:32,291 --> 01:26:33,333
Barrier Reef, he was originally from

737
01:26:33,333 --> 01:26:35,583
Australia, moves back and is like, yes,

738
01:26:35,916 --> 01:26:37,416
like I'm going to do something about this

739
01:26:37,416 --> 01:26:39,500
because I have to, you know, like that's

740
01:26:39,500 --> 01:26:40,958
an incredible story

741
01:26:40,958 --> 01:26:42,291
that needs to be told.

742
01:26:43,125 --> 01:26:45,000
I've met students who've gone into marine

743
01:26:45,000 --> 01:26:46,583
science because they read The Killer

744
01:26:46,583 --> 01:26:47,875
Wheel could change the world.

745
01:26:48,083 --> 01:26:49,875
That blows my mind.

746
01:26:50,250 --> 01:26:52,916
Isn't it crazy? Yeah, it's crazy.

747
01:26:53,416 --> 01:26:54,791
And you never know who they might become.

748
01:26:54,791 --> 01:26:55,583
You never know what they might

749
01:26:55,583 --> 01:26:58,291
accomplish, you know, and and like you've

750
01:26:58,291 --> 01:27:00,041
done like, like for when you

751
01:27:00,041 --> 01:27:02,375
write, what do you write for?

752
01:27:03,250 --> 01:27:04,625
Like, like when you write a book, any of

753
01:27:04,625 --> 01:27:05,458
the books that you that

754
01:27:05,458 --> 01:27:06,833
you've written in your past, right?

755
01:27:06,833 --> 01:27:07,541
How many books have you read?

756
01:27:07,791 --> 01:27:09,458
Yeah, I don't know.

757
01:27:09,791 --> 01:27:12,333
I like I really don't know.

758
01:27:12,333 --> 01:27:13,208
No, no. And and about

759
01:27:13,208 --> 01:27:14,416
countless articles, right?

760
01:27:14,416 --> 01:27:15,500
Like countless articles.

761
01:27:15,500 --> 01:27:16,791
Yeah. Oh, thousands.

762
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:17,208
Right.

763
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:18,166
Right.

764
01:27:18,250 --> 01:27:18,708
Thousands of articles.

765
01:27:18,708 --> 01:27:20,333
So when you write a piece, whether it's

766
01:27:20,333 --> 01:27:22,500
an article or a book or whatever, like

767
01:27:22,500 --> 01:27:25,458
overall, like what are you trying to

768
01:27:25,458 --> 01:27:26,708
accomplish at that point?

769
01:27:27,375 --> 01:27:28,791
I'm trying to share whatever I

770
01:27:28,791 --> 01:27:29,958
found that I think is amazing.

771
01:27:30,666 --> 01:27:30,875
Right.

772
01:27:31,083 --> 01:27:32,916
Whatever I'm like that, whatever I think

773
01:27:32,916 --> 01:27:36,291
people should know this like the shark

774
01:27:36,291 --> 01:27:37,666
book just kind of kicks off

775
01:27:37,666 --> 01:27:39,416
going sharks do not want to.

776
01:27:39,500 --> 01:27:41,666
You eat you if you read no further, this

777
01:27:41,666 --> 01:27:42,791
is all you need to know.

778
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:43,541
You need to know.

779
01:27:44,083 --> 01:27:44,250
Right.

780
01:27:44,250 --> 01:27:46,000
Like you can just stop the book now.

781
01:27:46,500 --> 01:27:47,708
Sharks don't want to eat you.

782
01:27:48,166 --> 01:27:48,375
Right.

783
01:27:49,250 --> 01:27:51,083
With the Octopus book, I so wanted to get

784
01:27:51,083 --> 01:27:52,291
across how amazing they are, how

785
01:27:52,291 --> 01:27:53,916
intelligent they are.

786
01:27:54,500 --> 01:27:59,083
And with orcas, for lack of a better

787
01:27:59,083 --> 01:28:00,666
word, how human they are.

788
01:28:01,125 --> 01:28:01,541
Right.

789
01:28:01,708 --> 01:28:04,416
Like the gift to me of not being a

790
01:28:04,416 --> 01:28:08,083
scientist is that I came at this world

791
01:28:08,083 --> 01:28:09,875
having no clue that

792
01:28:09,875 --> 01:28:11,500
anthropomorphism was a thing.

793
01:28:12,041 --> 01:28:14,500
I did not, I did not even know that term.

794
01:28:15,500 --> 01:28:20,333
So, um, so, and I lucked out because the

795
01:28:20,333 --> 01:28:22,125
first, when the first scientist, he

796
01:28:22,125 --> 01:28:23,708
really made time for me was Lance Barrett

797
01:28:23,708 --> 01:28:24,833
Leonard for the bank for credit.

798
01:28:25,500 --> 01:28:28,375
And he is his life has been

799
01:28:28,375 --> 01:28:30,041
dealing with orca behavior.

800
01:28:30,458 --> 01:28:32,250
And I think I caught him on just the

801
01:28:32,250 --> 01:28:35,125
right day because when I was asking him a

802
01:28:35,125 --> 01:28:35,916
question, he said, you know what?

803
01:28:35,916 --> 01:28:37,041
I'm really tired of

804
01:28:37,041 --> 01:28:38,708
apologizing for more of housing.

805
01:28:39,500 --> 01:28:41,625
He said, I don't know what else to say

806
01:28:41,625 --> 01:28:43,416
beyond these animals have the

807
01:28:43,416 --> 01:28:45,041
same type of emotions we do.

808
01:28:45,458 --> 01:28:45,833
Yeah.

809
01:28:45,833 --> 01:28:46,000
Right.

810
01:28:46,375 --> 01:28:47,416
And I caught him on.

811
01:28:48,041 --> 01:28:49,000
I really do think it was

812
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:50,166
like just the right day.

813
01:28:50,666 --> 01:28:51,666
And rain.

814
01:28:51,708 --> 01:28:55,833
I asked him a question that became kind

815
01:28:55,833 --> 01:28:58,416
of a go to for me in all of my work

816
01:28:58,416 --> 01:29:00,791
since, which was, she said, do

817
01:29:00,791 --> 01:29:02,208
you think whales are psychic?

818
01:29:03,041 --> 01:29:05,250
Because he was talking about where these

819
01:29:05,250 --> 01:29:07,166
orcas show up and he,

820
01:29:07,166 --> 01:29:09,916
he didn't love the word.

821
01:29:10,166 --> 01:29:10,541
Of course.

822
01:29:10,916 --> 01:29:13,708
But he went first day I show up in

823
01:29:13,708 --> 01:29:15,708
Vancouver and I'm about to dedicate my

824
01:29:15,708 --> 01:29:19,166
life to these orcas and I'm on a kayak

825
01:29:19,166 --> 01:29:20,541
and I'm suddenly surrounded by orcas.

826
01:29:21,416 --> 01:29:23,916
And I started asking the question a

827
01:29:23,916 --> 01:29:26,625
little bit differently and I started

828
01:29:26,625 --> 01:29:29,833
basically asking people who've devoted

829
01:29:29,833 --> 01:29:31,041
their lives to orcas.

830
01:29:31,541 --> 01:29:32,916
Tell me your impossible story.

831
01:29:33,625 --> 01:29:36,333
Tell me the story that you are

832
01:29:36,333 --> 01:29:41,166
uncomfortable sharing because it just

833
01:29:41,166 --> 01:29:43,208
sounds fictionally implausible.

834
01:29:43,208 --> 01:29:43,500
Tell me your

835
01:29:43,500 --> 01:29:44,375
fictionally implausible work.

836
01:29:44,375 --> 01:29:47,583
I started and they all have one and they

837
01:29:47,583 --> 01:29:49,416
actually they all multiples and the one

838
01:29:49,416 --> 01:29:50,916
that really blew my mind.

839
01:29:51,250 --> 01:29:53,791
I know have multiples and the one that

840
01:29:53,791 --> 01:29:56,958
just completely blew my mind was

841
01:29:56,958 --> 01:30:00,666
Alexandra Morton talking about these

842
01:30:00,666 --> 01:30:03,416
orcas surrounding her when her boat was

843
01:30:03,416 --> 01:30:05,583
lost the fog and the orcas leading her

844
01:30:05,583 --> 01:30:08,375
back to safety and

845
01:30:08,375 --> 01:30:09,708
this pod she was studying.

846
01:30:09,750 --> 01:30:13,541
And the reason that it blew my mind was I

847
01:30:13,541 --> 01:30:16,125
went, I think Ken Baucom told me that

848
01:30:16,125 --> 01:30:19,166
story a few months ago and Ken Baucom

849
01:30:19,166 --> 01:30:20,500
said it for whale researcher.

850
01:30:21,250 --> 01:30:24,041
Same thing where his boat was lost and a

851
01:30:24,041 --> 01:30:26,208
group of orcas, a pod of orcas surrounded

852
01:30:26,208 --> 01:30:28,041
him and took him to safety.

853
01:30:28,708 --> 01:30:30,291
This isn't possible.

854
01:30:31,000 --> 01:30:32,833
I like I actually heard the story and I

855
01:30:32,833 --> 01:30:34,791
couldn't even connect it to that.

856
01:30:34,791 --> 01:30:35,541
I must be mixing up.

857
01:30:35,583 --> 01:30:36,666
Ken must not have told me

858
01:30:36,666 --> 01:30:38,250
this like, yeah, he did.

859
01:30:38,583 --> 01:30:39,583
And in both cases,

860
01:30:39,583 --> 01:30:40,333
they said the same thing.

861
01:30:40,500 --> 01:30:41,541
This happened once.

862
01:30:42,791 --> 01:30:44,666
This happened exactly once.

863
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:45,833
They were in trouble.

864
01:30:46,166 --> 01:30:47,375
The orcas stuck with them.

865
01:30:47,958 --> 01:30:51,000
And I look and I put a chapter about all

866
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:52,000
of these weird things.

867
01:30:52,333 --> 01:30:54,208
Yeah, in orcas everywhere.

868
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:57,791
And the first time I read this chapter,

869
01:30:57,791 --> 01:30:58,791
I'm on Saturna Island.

870
01:30:58,791 --> 01:31:00,416
I'd spent an entire summer on Saturna

871
01:31:00,416 --> 01:31:03,375
Island because somebody Saturna Island

872
01:31:03,375 --> 01:31:04,750
was where Moby doll was captured.

873
01:31:05,250 --> 01:31:05,333
Right.

874
01:31:05,666 --> 01:31:07,458
Somebody basically gifted me their place

875
01:31:07,458 --> 01:31:11,000
on Saturna Island for a very small fee so

876
01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:12,708
I could write the book on Saturna Island.

877
01:31:13,541 --> 01:31:15,000
Never managed to see an orca the whole

878
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:16,875
time I'm on Saturna Island there.

879
01:31:18,083 --> 01:31:19,916
And so Rain and I are

880
01:31:19,916 --> 01:31:21,708
there the whole summer.

881
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:22,750
So I'm back.

882
01:31:23,208 --> 01:31:24,875
They want me to do a reading in the park

883
01:31:24,875 --> 01:31:27,083
where Moby was harpooned.

884
01:31:28,291 --> 01:31:31,500
And this is just after Taliqua had

885
01:31:31,500 --> 01:31:35,166
carried her dead daughter for 17 days.

886
01:31:36,208 --> 01:31:38,750
And I had decided I had not told anybody

887
01:31:38,750 --> 01:31:40,666
this, but I decided I

888
01:31:40,666 --> 01:31:41,791
could no longer do this.

889
01:31:42,083 --> 01:31:43,000
It was just too sad.

890
01:31:43,583 --> 01:31:47,291
I was like, I, because it's hard for

891
01:31:47,291 --> 01:31:48,458
people to get to now you hear the

892
01:31:48,458 --> 01:31:49,708
Southern residents and they're no longer

893
01:31:49,708 --> 01:31:50,625
called the Southern residents.

894
01:31:50,875 --> 01:31:51,500
They're called the critically

895
01:31:51,500 --> 01:31:52,750
endangered Southern residents.

896
01:31:53,000 --> 01:31:53,250
Yeah.

897
01:31:53,416 --> 01:31:55,458
And when, when I jumped onto this story,

898
01:31:55,458 --> 01:31:57,041
when I first told the story of the killer

899
01:31:57,041 --> 01:31:59,250
whale who changed the world, it was a

900
01:31:59,250 --> 01:32:02,291
phenomenal story of a recovery of the

901
01:32:02,291 --> 01:32:04,500
population of recovered and everybody I

902
01:32:04,500 --> 01:32:06,458
talked to was excited and enthusiastic

903
01:32:06,458 --> 01:32:07,583
and talking about the

904
01:32:07,583 --> 01:32:08,583
resilience of nature.

905
01:32:09,458 --> 01:32:11,041
I didn't talk to a single sad person.

906
01:32:11,041 --> 01:32:11,541
They were all like, Oh

907
01:32:11,541 --> 01:32:12,916
my God, is this amazing?

908
01:32:14,583 --> 01:32:16,458
And then they started to freaking die.

909
01:32:16,458 --> 01:32:19,291
And I was making a movie called the

910
01:32:19,291 --> 01:32:20,333
hundred year old whale.

911
01:32:20,333 --> 01:32:21,666
I can show you a link to this one because

912
01:32:21,666 --> 01:32:23,750
it it's up everywhere now.

913
01:32:24,958 --> 01:32:26,291
Made a movie with rain called the hundred

914
01:32:26,291 --> 01:32:30,208
year old whale and about granny.

915
01:32:31,250 --> 01:32:33,833
But I thought we're going to put out that

916
01:32:33,833 --> 01:32:35,958
movie and I'm going to put out this book

917
01:32:35,958 --> 01:32:37,125
and then I'm done

918
01:32:37,125 --> 01:32:39,625
because this is just too sad.

919
01:32:40,083 --> 01:32:40,583
Yeah, it's hard.

920
01:32:40,625 --> 01:32:42,208
I'm standing there and I'm about to read

921
01:32:42,208 --> 01:32:43,791
from this chapter for this book that is

922
01:32:43,791 --> 01:32:48,083
unpublished and somebody shouts whale and

923
01:32:48,083 --> 01:32:49,375
suddenly all the people

924
01:32:49,375 --> 01:32:50,000
are there for the reading.

925
01:32:50,375 --> 01:32:52,291
We race to the side of the cliff and

926
01:32:52,291 --> 01:32:53,541
there is J pod, including

927
01:32:53,541 --> 01:32:56,041
telequa freaking dancing.

928
01:32:56,875 --> 01:32:58,166
Like, I don't know how else you want to

929
01:32:58,166 --> 01:32:59,333
put it, but they are

930
01:32:59,333 --> 01:33:01,166
just splashing everywhere.

931
01:33:03,041 --> 01:33:03,625
Have a good time.

932
01:33:03,625 --> 01:33:04,000
I got it.

933
01:33:04,666 --> 01:33:04,916
Okay.

934
01:33:04,916 --> 01:33:05,166
Yeah.

935
01:33:05,166 --> 01:33:05,583
I'm yours.

936
01:33:06,375 --> 01:33:06,625
Yeah.

937
01:33:07,333 --> 01:33:08,041
I don't get to quit.

938
01:33:08,416 --> 01:33:08,791
I'm yours.

939
01:33:09,333 --> 01:33:09,666
Right.

940
01:33:11,041 --> 01:33:11,666
That's insane.

941
01:33:12,500 --> 01:33:15,583
Like the timing, you know, like, oh, like

942
01:33:15,583 --> 01:33:17,666
I absolutely decided I was done.

943
01:33:18,166 --> 01:33:19,458
I was absolutely sure I

944
01:33:19,458 --> 01:33:21,041
was done and J pod shows up.

945
01:33:21,666 --> 01:33:23,583
And when I posted some Facebook, the

946
01:33:23,583 --> 01:33:24,916
number of people said they showed up for

947
01:33:24,916 --> 01:33:28,083
you, which sounds utterly crazy.

948
01:33:28,333 --> 01:33:30,666
I'm so you go back to you go back to Eric

949
01:33:30,666 --> 01:33:34,000
Hoyt's work where he goes or because show

950
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:35,750
up for the people who need them.

951
01:33:36,333 --> 01:33:37,500
Yeah, and this is in

952
01:33:37,500 --> 01:33:39,791
Orca and Marie Newman back.

953
01:33:40,375 --> 01:33:41,958
The first time I saw the word psychic

954
01:33:41,958 --> 01:33:43,041
Mitch was Marie Newman saying

955
01:33:43,041 --> 01:33:44,583
these orcas must be psychic.

956
01:33:44,791 --> 01:33:45,916
They've never avoided

957
01:33:45,916 --> 01:33:47,000
to turn Island before.

958
01:33:47,750 --> 01:33:48,208
And here we are.

959
01:33:48,208 --> 01:33:50,500
We've been here all summer and it's like

960
01:33:50,500 --> 01:33:51,583
they know we've got a harpoon.

961
01:33:52,208 --> 01:33:54,333
When the, when the machine go, we'll set

962
01:33:54,333 --> 01:33:55,083
up at Campbell river.

963
01:33:55,166 --> 01:33:56,916
The orcas went nowhere near Campbell

964
01:33:56,916 --> 01:33:58,458
river that entire summer.

965
01:33:58,458 --> 01:33:59,000
And you already.

966
01:34:00,208 --> 01:34:02,791
So how does that happen?

967
01:34:03,666 --> 01:34:04,083
Right.

968
01:34:04,083 --> 01:34:05,875
Like that's that's where I've

969
01:34:05,875 --> 01:34:07,416
just become totally obsessed.

970
01:34:07,958 --> 01:34:08,208
Yes.

971
01:34:08,208 --> 01:34:09,166
Like, how does that happen?

972
01:34:10,500 --> 01:34:12,875
It's unreal to like, you know, you hear

973
01:34:12,875 --> 01:34:14,666
these these, as you say, impossible

974
01:34:14,666 --> 01:34:16,458
stories and you just say,

975
01:34:17,500 --> 01:34:19,583
you know, how can they show up like this

976
01:34:19,583 --> 01:34:21,708
each and every time, you know, how can

977
01:34:21,708 --> 01:34:23,416
they help guide people to safety?

978
01:34:23,416 --> 01:34:25,166
How can they show up in emotional moments

979
01:34:25,166 --> 01:34:27,416
where you just, you know, you know,

980
01:34:27,416 --> 01:34:28,875
they've been going through a hard time.

981
01:34:28,875 --> 01:34:30,500
You follow them for you for decades.

982
01:34:31,583 --> 01:34:32,250
And then all of a sudden

983
01:34:32,250 --> 01:34:34,125
they show up when you need them.

984
01:34:34,416 --> 01:34:35,208
Like when you're like, I'm

985
01:34:35,208 --> 01:34:36,541
not sure I can do this anymore.

986
01:34:36,541 --> 01:34:38,125
Like, this is it after this.

987
01:34:38,125 --> 01:34:38,958
And they're like, no,

988
01:34:38,958 --> 01:34:40,458
you still have a job to do.

989
01:34:40,458 --> 01:34:42,333
You need to you need to speak for us.

990
01:34:42,333 --> 01:34:43,250
And we're going to be here

991
01:34:43,250 --> 01:34:45,000
for you when, when you need it.

992
01:34:45,000 --> 01:34:46,583
It's it's weird because, you know, as a

993
01:34:46,583 --> 01:34:47,375
scientist, you're just

994
01:34:47,375 --> 01:34:48,708
like, this, this doesn't happen.

995
01:34:48,708 --> 01:34:50,791
It's like, this is not a thing, you know,

996
01:34:50,791 --> 01:34:52,166
but when you when you look at the

997
01:34:52,166 --> 01:34:54,708
complexity and emotion, emotionality, I

998
01:34:54,708 --> 01:34:57,666
guess, of these whales, you know, these

999
01:34:57,666 --> 01:35:00,833
these orcas, you are, I feel like you're

1000
01:35:00,833 --> 01:35:04,000
constantly surprised, you know, as as,

1001
01:35:04,000 --> 01:35:05,375
you know, general, we like we're

1002
01:35:05,375 --> 01:35:06,416
constantly surprised by

1003
01:35:06,416 --> 01:35:07,458
what they can accomplish.

1004
01:35:08,083 --> 01:35:10,333
Right. And, and, and you just think about

1005
01:35:10,333 --> 01:35:13,708
the last 40 years that they, what we've

1006
01:35:13,708 --> 01:35:15,666
put them through as humans and you just

1007
01:35:15,666 --> 01:35:18,541
like, they keep showing up for us yet,

1008
01:35:18,833 --> 01:35:20,750
you know, humans keep doing this to them.

1009
01:35:20,750 --> 01:35:22,583
And it's like, at what point are we going

1010
01:35:22,583 --> 01:35:25,208
to learn, you know, that we need to do

1011
01:35:25,208 --> 01:35:26,666
better for these, for these animals?

1012
01:35:27,708 --> 01:35:30,833
I, I mean, I go with Ken Balcom on,

1013
01:35:30,833 --> 01:35:32,916
Telico was trying to tell us something.

1014
01:35:33,458 --> 01:35:36,208
Right. But I mean, like, to me, the story

1015
01:35:36,208 --> 01:35:37,875
just told me, that's not even our

1016
01:35:37,875 --> 01:35:41,958
craziest orchestra. Right. Like, I had

1017
01:35:41,958 --> 01:35:43,708
sold what we call the hundred year old

1018
01:35:43,708 --> 01:35:46,416
whale, I had assumed there was a ton of

1019
01:35:46,416 --> 01:35:47,250
footage of granny out

1020
01:35:47,250 --> 01:35:48,875
there, because she's really old.

1021
01:35:49,208 --> 01:35:50,083
Whether she's around everywhere.

1022
01:35:50,958 --> 01:35:56,000
So what happens is, Rain and I are like,

1023
01:35:56,666 --> 01:35:58,625
oh, you know, we're out hanging around

1024
01:35:58,625 --> 01:36:03,125
downtown Victoria. And there's a, there's

1025
01:36:03,125 --> 01:36:05,166
a particular whale watching company that

1026
01:36:05,166 --> 01:36:06,458
works with a lot of the department

1027
01:36:06,458 --> 01:36:07,375
fisheries notions were

1028
01:36:07,375 --> 01:36:08,916
scientists, a lot of unique people.

1029
01:36:08,958 --> 01:36:12,791
Um, and the guy who runs it said, you

1030
01:36:12,791 --> 01:36:15,875
know what? If we see granny, if we see

1031
01:36:15,875 --> 01:36:17,916
her, we will take you out and we have

1032
01:36:17,916 --> 01:36:19,125
this great conversation. She said, you

1033
01:36:19,125 --> 01:36:21,000
just need to know she's mostly hanging

1034
01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:21,916
out with this other

1035
01:36:21,916 --> 01:36:23,500
orchid and onyx from L pod.

1036
01:36:23,500 --> 01:36:25,791
They are not being spotted very often.

1037
01:36:25,791 --> 01:36:28,000
They're not being spotted with J pod. So

1038
01:36:28,000 --> 01:36:29,583
no idea if we'll be able to help you up

1039
01:36:29,583 --> 01:36:31,708
with summer. Yeah. If it happens, we'll

1040
01:36:31,708 --> 01:36:34,250
call an hour later, he calls and says,

1041
01:36:34,250 --> 01:36:36,375
um, hi, you know, I

1042
01:36:36,375 --> 01:36:36,916
said, we haven't seen granny.

1043
01:36:36,958 --> 01:36:40,000
Granny just showed up and she's hanging

1044
01:36:40,000 --> 01:36:41,750
out by one of our whale watching boats.

1045
01:36:42,333 --> 01:36:44,000
How fast can you get down to fishermen's

1046
01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:48,750
work? And next thing I know, rain and I

1047
01:36:48,750 --> 01:36:51,333
rain has a new camera. She's never used.

1048
01:36:52,291 --> 01:36:55,250
Because this is not supposed to be for

1049
01:36:55,250 --> 01:36:57,250
the film. This is just a camera. She was

1050
01:36:57,250 --> 01:37:01,541
out playing with that day. And, oh, he

1051
01:37:01,541 --> 01:37:02,750
said, you know what, I'm going to take

1052
01:37:02,750 --> 01:37:04,208
you out because we, you may never get

1053
01:37:04,208 --> 01:37:04,916
that another chance.

1054
01:37:04,958 --> 01:37:08,166
So Brett who runs this company, Eagle

1055
01:37:08,166 --> 01:37:10,583
Wing, uh, Clint, who's this amazing

1056
01:37:10,583 --> 01:37:13,541
photographer, rain and I get on a boat. I

1057
01:37:13,541 --> 01:37:14,833
don't, I just assumed he was getting us

1058
01:37:14,833 --> 01:37:15,833
on a whale watching, but he's just

1059
01:37:15,833 --> 01:37:16,958
getting us on his boat.

1060
01:37:16,958 --> 01:37:17,625
So we could see granny.

1061
01:37:17,625 --> 01:37:19,791
Cause he said, granny story is important.

1062
01:37:20,166 --> 01:37:22,125
I will help you tell this story to race

1063
01:37:22,125 --> 01:37:26,666
out there. And the best way to get it

1064
01:37:26,666 --> 01:37:28,208
across with the people on the whale

1065
01:37:28,208 --> 01:37:30,250
watching boat who they had left there so

1066
01:37:30,250 --> 01:37:31,666
that we could catch them. So they would

1067
01:37:31,666 --> 01:37:31,916
not lose sight of granny.

1068
01:37:31,958 --> 01:37:35,083
When they got back to shore, they said

1069
01:37:35,083 --> 01:37:37,791
they were asked other choices. Oh, you

1070
01:37:37,791 --> 01:37:41,875
know, it was great. But then the other

1071
01:37:41,875 --> 01:37:45,625
boat showed up and it was amazing. And

1072
01:37:45,625 --> 01:37:48,416
what happens is we show up rain points

1073
01:37:48,416 --> 01:37:49,875
your camera. And if you've ever been out

1074
01:37:49,875 --> 01:37:52,333
looking for orcas with the camera, you

1075
01:37:52,333 --> 01:37:53,916
know that they're like, oh, camera. Yeah.

1076
01:37:53,958 --> 01:37:57,250
We're side to side wherever you want,

1077
01:37:57,250 --> 01:37:57,666
wherever you point

1078
01:37:57,666 --> 01:37:59,583
that camera. Good luck.

1079
01:37:59,833 --> 01:38:01,500
I might be right behind you, but you

1080
01:38:01,500 --> 01:38:03,750
won't know. Good luck getting my freaking

1081
01:38:03,750 --> 01:38:08,291
tail. No, no. The granny goes, Oh, hey,

1082
01:38:08,291 --> 01:38:10,416
rain. I'm going to tell a slap for you.

1083
01:38:11,333 --> 01:38:12,791
And then a moment later, it's like, Hey,

1084
01:38:12,791 --> 01:38:14,458
rain, I think I'm going to jump out. I'm

1085
01:38:14,458 --> 01:38:16,791
going to spy hop for you. And then

1086
01:38:16,791 --> 01:38:20,500
there's, we're out at, if you know, no,

1087
01:38:20,500 --> 01:38:22,916
what films magic hours when the sun just goes orange and purple.

1088
01:38:22,958 --> 01:38:26,083
Right? Yeah. We are out at magic hour.

1089
01:38:26,375 --> 01:38:29,541
Pretty much the entirety of J pod, except

1090
01:38:29,541 --> 01:38:32,125
for granny is behind the boat for all

1091
01:38:32,125 --> 01:38:34,083
looking almost right behind us. Like

1092
01:38:34,083 --> 01:38:36,375
we're parked. We're not moving. They're

1093
01:38:36,375 --> 01:38:38,666
coming towards towards you guys. They're

1094
01:38:38,666 --> 01:38:40,833
like, Hey, we're ready for a close up.

1095
01:38:40,833 --> 01:38:44,083
Just get that camera ready. And I

1096
01:38:44,083 --> 01:38:46,041
actually said, look, I don't care if the

1097
01:38:46,041 --> 01:38:48,458
orcas behind us start to hula. I said

1098
01:38:48,458 --> 01:38:50,750
granny was over there. Just point your

1099
01:38:50,750 --> 01:38:51,916
camera over there. Yeah.

1100
01:38:52,166 --> 01:38:55,541
Yeah. As much as possible. And the next

1101
01:38:55,541 --> 01:38:59,041
thing we know, granny does this

1102
01:38:59,041 --> 01:39:02,708
phenomenal perfect freaking breach. Does

1103
01:39:02,708 --> 01:39:05,916
this arc out of the water rain catches it

1104
01:39:05,916 --> 01:39:07,875
just to make sure she didn't miss it. She

1105
01:39:07,875 --> 01:39:10,125
does it a second time. She's and if you

1106
01:39:10,125 --> 01:39:12,875
listen to the entire tape, like if you

1107
01:39:12,875 --> 01:39:15,166
can hear the whole audio, you can hear

1108
01:39:15,166 --> 01:39:18,583
the guy who has been running these whale

1109
01:39:18,583 --> 01:39:19,833
watching tours and the

1110
01:39:19,833 --> 01:39:20,916
photographers but out with them for

1111
01:39:20,958 --> 01:39:23,875
decades. Yeah. Oh my, oh my, oh my, oh

1112
01:39:23,875 --> 01:39:25,000
my, this granny's getting like, they

1113
01:39:25,000 --> 01:39:26,583
sound like four year old girls and then

1114
01:39:26,583 --> 01:39:29,625
you hear me, the mother and going, please

1115
01:39:29,625 --> 01:39:31,208
tell me about the shot. Please tell me

1116
01:39:31,208 --> 01:39:32,500
about the shot. Please tell me about the

1117
01:39:32,500 --> 01:39:35,333
shot. Uh, like the camera did not reset

1118
01:39:35,333 --> 01:39:36,750
in time to get the second breach because

1119
01:39:36,750 --> 01:39:39,250
they were so fast. Wow. And I said to,

1120
01:39:39,500 --> 01:39:41,500
and I turned to guys. I said, she must

1121
01:39:41,500 --> 01:39:44,625
have seen this dozens of times. Yeah. And

1122
01:39:44,625 --> 01:39:47,375
they looked at it. No, five times ever.

1123
01:39:47,375 --> 01:39:49,291
We've seen granny breach five times ever.

1124
01:39:49,291 --> 01:39:49,916
Those were two of them.

1125
01:39:51,541 --> 01:39:53,416
Jesus. Then I reached out

1126
01:39:53,416 --> 01:39:54,458
to center for whale research.

1127
01:39:56,041 --> 01:39:57,708
Decades. They've been out there for

1128
01:39:57,708 --> 01:39:59,958
decades. I reached out to center for

1129
01:39:59,958 --> 01:40:02,125
whale research and went, can we please

1130
01:40:02,125 --> 01:40:04,666
get all of your footage of granny? And I,

1131
01:40:04,833 --> 01:40:07,000
oh, we've got no footage of granny. And

1132
01:40:07,000 --> 01:40:07,916
what do you mean with this? We've got

1133
01:40:07,916 --> 01:40:09,916
some stills. But it's. But no.

1134
01:40:10,541 --> 01:40:13,625
And I started putting out calls for

1135
01:40:13,625 --> 01:40:16,416
footage of granny. If we had known there

1136
01:40:16,416 --> 01:40:17,791
was no footage of granny, we couldn't

1137
01:40:17,791 --> 01:40:19,000
have made the movie. Our producer

1138
01:40:19,000 --> 01:40:21,333
wouldn't have approved it. So this one

1139
01:40:21,333 --> 01:40:24,125
fluky day, we get the footage that ends

1140
01:40:24,125 --> 01:40:26,541
our movie that if we want a whole bunch

1141
01:40:26,541 --> 01:40:28,333
of awards for that movie, we want awards

1142
01:40:28,333 --> 01:40:29,875
because granny showed up for her close

1143
01:40:29,875 --> 01:40:32,625
up. A few days later, rain goes out

1144
01:40:32,625 --> 01:40:36,708
without me. Just one of the great regrets

1145
01:40:36,708 --> 01:40:37,916
of my life was I was like,

1146
01:40:37,916 --> 01:40:38,958
no, I've got some deadlines.

1147
01:40:40,291 --> 01:40:43,166
And a super pod shows up again. The boat

1148
01:40:43,166 --> 01:40:45,875
is freaking parked and the super pod just

1149
01:40:45,875 --> 01:40:47,916
goes, excuse me. She needs some photos

1150
01:40:47,916 --> 01:40:51,583
for her movie. So we've got seven New

1151
01:40:51,583 --> 01:40:54,583
Yorkers here. We better. We heard you're

1152
01:40:54,583 --> 01:40:56,333
making a movie. We want to be

1153
01:40:56,333 --> 01:40:57,916
in granny. We would all like.

1154
01:40:58,958 --> 01:41:01,000
We'd all like to be

1155
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:02,416
in the movie. Yeah. So.

1156
01:41:03,333 --> 01:41:05,291
Rain was supposed to give a bit of extra

1157
01:41:05,291 --> 01:41:06,375
footage for a movie and

1158
01:41:06,375 --> 01:41:08,500
instead she shot half the film.

1159
01:41:09,375 --> 01:41:11,250
In these right now, one in these two days

1160
01:41:11,250 --> 01:41:13,791
because she's got the super

1161
01:41:13,791 --> 01:41:16,166
pod and she came back just.

1162
01:41:17,416 --> 01:41:18,916
In tears. And this is the most amazing

1163
01:41:18,916 --> 01:41:21,125
thing I've ever seen in my life. Right.

1164
01:41:23,291 --> 01:41:26,958
And again, super pods are wild and scientifically important.

1165
01:41:27,958 --> 01:41:28,375
And I think that's a very plausible

1166
01:41:28,375 --> 01:41:32,125
because they almost always seem to

1167
01:41:32,125 --> 01:41:34,708
coincide with bursts and deaths. Yeah.

1168
01:41:35,375 --> 01:41:37,833
Again, sciencey scientists are very

1169
01:41:37,833 --> 01:41:40,500
uncomfortable and just even it's a

1170
01:41:40,500 --> 01:41:42,500
coincidence. I'm like, no, no, I read my

1171
01:41:42,500 --> 01:41:44,333
Sherlock Holmes once as a coincidence.

1172
01:41:44,791 --> 01:41:47,333
Three times as evidence. Right? Exactly.

1173
01:41:47,958 --> 01:41:52,291
Fifty times I don't get how you don't go

1174
01:41:52,291 --> 01:41:55,250
some in some way, shape or form. We do

1175
01:41:55,250 --> 01:41:58,000
not understand. They are sharing

1176
01:41:58,000 --> 01:42:01,125
information that is saying it's super pod

1177
01:42:01,125 --> 01:42:03,666
time, guys. We've got a we got a

1178
01:42:03,666 --> 01:42:05,500
celebration or we've got a grief ritual.

1179
01:42:06,875 --> 01:42:07,916
And unreal. Yeah.

1180
01:42:08,958 --> 01:42:12,041
These like it's really interesting to see

1181
01:42:12,041 --> 01:42:15,208
like you telling these stories and then

1182
01:42:15,208 --> 01:42:17,166
you know, you see on like I watch tiktok

1183
01:42:17,166 --> 01:42:19,583
incessantly I'm addicted and I see a

1184
01:42:19,583 --> 01:42:23,166
number of creators on there that you

1185
01:42:23,166 --> 01:42:26,500
know, are scientists and they talk about

1186
01:42:26,500 --> 01:42:28,333
orcas and they work for organizations

1187
01:42:28,333 --> 01:42:29,916
around orcas or they live in B.C.

1188
01:42:30,958 --> 01:42:34,250
And I'll tell you when they show their

1189
01:42:34,250 --> 01:42:37,625
footage of them going out just to see

1190
01:42:37,625 --> 01:42:40,125
them like they hear the orcas are in or

1191
01:42:40,125 --> 01:42:41,583
they're close or they I don't know if

1192
01:42:41,583 --> 01:42:43,125
there's like a network of people citing

1193
01:42:43,125 --> 01:42:45,000
them and then people just you see all

1194
01:42:45,000 --> 01:42:47,333
these careers just go and a lot of times

1195
01:42:47,333 --> 01:42:47,916
they're just showing the camera.

1196
01:42:47,958 --> 01:42:50,291
You know, they may have music in the

1197
01:42:50,291 --> 01:42:51,708
background. Sometimes they don't but they

1198
01:42:51,708 --> 01:42:53,583
show themselves watching them and it's

1199
01:42:53,583 --> 01:42:56,541
like it's emotional. It's it's super

1200
01:42:56,541 --> 01:42:59,500
emotional for these like these

1201
01:42:59,500 --> 01:43:02,916
professionals who see them often. Right?

1202
01:43:03,208 --> 01:43:05,833
Like they go out whenever they can and

1203
01:43:05,833 --> 01:43:08,500
have studied them or have researched them

1204
01:43:08,500 --> 01:43:10,666
and when they see them in person, it's

1205
01:43:10,666 --> 01:43:14,208
like this this uncontrollable human

1206
01:43:14,208 --> 01:43:16,541
emotion to get emotional. Whether it's

1207
01:43:16,541 --> 01:43:19,291
happiness, whether it's happy tears or

1208
01:43:19,291 --> 01:43:21,291
sad tears or whatever that might be.

1209
01:43:21,291 --> 01:43:22,958
No matter how many times you like people

1210
01:43:22,958 --> 01:43:25,250
live out there and how many times you see

1211
01:43:25,250 --> 01:43:27,625
them every time seems to be like it hits

1212
01:43:27,625 --> 01:43:28,500
that emotional strings.

1213
01:43:28,958 --> 01:43:32,000
It was amazing to me because we really

1214
01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:33,416
didn't know how our documentary was going

1215
01:43:33,416 --> 01:43:36,208
to spin. So one of the questions that I

1216
01:43:36,208 --> 01:43:38,916
asked non scientists asked scientists as

1217
01:43:38,916 --> 01:43:40,541
well. Can you tell me about the first

1218
01:43:40,541 --> 01:43:43,416
time you saw well and the number of times

1219
01:43:43,416 --> 01:43:44,500
I heard the word magic.

1220
01:43:45,333 --> 01:43:49,125
Like if you know if I was just

1221
01:43:49,125 --> 01:43:51,166
categorized in the words that came up

1222
01:43:51,166 --> 01:43:56,625
magic and magical just were the go tos.

1223
01:43:56,625 --> 01:43:59,625
Yeah, right. Just there's something just

1224
01:43:59,625 --> 01:44:01,625
overwhelming about being out there with I

1225
01:44:01,625 --> 01:44:02,458
just realized that we're

1226
01:44:02,458 --> 01:44:02,916
talking entirely about the wrong.

1227
01:44:02,958 --> 01:44:05,458
Yeah, but doesn't matter. This is good

1228
01:44:05,458 --> 01:44:08,375
because I think people don't realize that

1229
01:44:08,375 --> 01:44:10,208
we see them again. We get to see them a

1230
01:44:10,208 --> 01:44:11,916
lot on online and on

1231
01:44:11,916 --> 01:44:13,458
TV and in documentaries.

1232
01:44:15,458 --> 01:44:16,791
I feel like it should be on every

1233
01:44:16,791 --> 01:44:19,541
everybody's bucket list to go whale. I

1234
01:44:19,541 --> 01:44:21,166
should go orca watching. You know, it's

1235
01:44:21,166 --> 01:44:22,291
definitely on mine. I've never seen an

1236
01:44:22,291 --> 01:44:25,000
orca in the wild. Oh, I know. It's

1237
01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:26,875
something that I want to do. You know,

1238
01:44:26,875 --> 01:44:28,083
it's definitely on my bucket list.

1239
01:44:28,958 --> 01:44:32,166
And it's just I feel like it's just

1240
01:44:32,166 --> 01:44:34,291
something just you've seen professionals

1241
01:44:34,291 --> 01:44:37,500
who see them often react every time the

1242
01:44:37,500 --> 01:44:40,000
same way. It's just it's a very different

1243
01:44:40,000 --> 01:44:41,625
thing. And I don't know what it is about

1244
01:44:41,625 --> 01:44:43,666
these orca's that do it. But they're just

1245
01:44:43,666 --> 01:44:45,250
and you've described it just like their

1246
01:44:45,250 --> 01:44:48,708
timing their ability to provide like good

1247
01:44:48,708 --> 01:44:49,708
moments at the right

1248
01:44:49,708 --> 01:44:51,916
time when you just need it.

1249
01:44:52,125 --> 01:44:53,583
I mean, other times the frustration of

1250
01:44:53,583 --> 01:44:55,250
them not showing up when you go out and

1251
01:44:55,250 --> 01:44:56,500
you're looking for them. You got the big

1252
01:44:56,500 --> 01:44:59,125
camera out and everything. I just I just

1253
01:44:59,125 --> 01:45:01,041
love that. But it just goes to show that

1254
01:45:01,041 --> 01:45:02,958
it can get someone like yourself who's

1255
01:45:02,958 --> 01:45:04,708
not a scientist who doesn't study them,

1256
01:45:04,708 --> 01:45:06,125
but as somebody who loves

1257
01:45:06,125 --> 01:45:08,375
to write and tell stories.

1258
01:45:09,291 --> 01:45:10,375
And there's a number of people. You know,

1259
01:45:10,375 --> 01:45:12,375
you mentioned Alexandra Morton who loves

1260
01:45:12,375 --> 01:45:14,083
to tell stories about these orca's. Yeah,

1261
01:45:14,208 --> 01:45:16,125
very good storyteller in her own right.

1262
01:45:16,625 --> 01:45:17,416
And you just sit there

1263
01:45:17,416 --> 01:45:17,958
and you're just like.

1264
01:45:19,375 --> 01:45:21,250
I'm glad that it's not just a scientist

1265
01:45:21,250 --> 01:45:22,875
that's writing about these. And of

1266
01:45:22,875 --> 01:45:24,916
course, they've affected every people

1267
01:45:24,916 --> 01:45:26,500
other than scientists as well. But it's

1268
01:45:26,500 --> 01:45:29,833
just so nice to see someone who you and

1269
01:45:29,833 --> 01:45:31,416
your and rain your wife like to be like

1270
01:45:31,416 --> 01:45:34,041
we want to share their stories like the

1271
01:45:34,041 --> 01:45:35,041
way they affected us.

1272
01:45:35,541 --> 01:45:37,000
We need their stories to go because

1273
01:45:37,000 --> 01:45:38,041
obviously, you know, critically

1274
01:45:38,041 --> 01:45:39,791
endangered southern resident orca

1275
01:45:39,791 --> 01:45:41,875
population. You have the northern orca

1276
01:45:41,875 --> 01:45:43,791
population, which they're doing okay, but

1277
01:45:43,791 --> 01:45:44,708
they're not the best. You have a

1278
01:45:44,708 --> 01:45:46,041
transient population, which we still

1279
01:45:46,041 --> 01:45:46,916
don't know too much about.

1280
01:45:46,958 --> 01:45:48,666
And then you have another population out

1281
01:45:48,666 --> 01:45:50,625
even further, which we still don't like

1282
01:45:50,625 --> 01:45:51,875
we're just seems like we're so the

1283
01:45:51,875 --> 01:45:54,208
officers are just weird. They're right.

1284
01:45:54,875 --> 01:45:56,041
Oh, they're just out there. They're

1285
01:45:56,041 --> 01:45:58,500
they're eating sharks. Right. And the

1286
01:45:58,500 --> 01:46:01,416
fact that they were identified by their

1287
01:46:01,416 --> 01:46:03,583
lousy teeth. That's just awesome.

1288
01:46:04,458 --> 01:46:06,833
Exactly. Exactly. So it's just such a

1289
01:46:06,833 --> 01:46:09,708
like it's such a moment where I did want

1290
01:46:09,708 --> 01:46:10,750
to cover because obviously you've

1291
01:46:10,750 --> 01:46:12,250
dedicated a big part of your life to

1292
01:46:12,250 --> 01:46:14,208
orcas. And it's part of your story in

1293
01:46:14,208 --> 01:46:15,291
writing about science.

1294
01:46:16,041 --> 01:46:18,291
I think that's it's amazing. But like

1295
01:46:18,291 --> 01:46:20,166
when we as you pivot towards different,

1296
01:46:20,625 --> 01:46:23,416
you know, going to sharks and other big

1297
01:46:23,416 --> 01:46:25,541
whales, small world like that type of

1298
01:46:25,541 --> 01:46:29,166
work and now octopus ocean when you when

1299
01:46:29,166 --> 01:46:30,416
you move in, obviously, you know, sharks

1300
01:46:30,416 --> 01:46:31,916
forever. It had a bit different story.

1301
01:46:31,916 --> 01:46:33,583
Definitely had that emotional connection

1302
01:46:33,583 --> 01:46:35,791
for you and, you know, for Robin, his

1303
01:46:35,791 --> 01:46:36,833
family and his legacy.

1304
01:46:38,166 --> 01:46:40,625
The other books like what makes it like

1305
01:46:40,625 --> 01:46:42,708
obviously people suggested but what makes

1306
01:46:42,708 --> 01:46:44,583
like is there an emotional tie that you

1307
01:46:44,583 --> 01:46:48,416
have to octopus like whales you do but

1308
01:46:48,416 --> 01:46:50,666
like what is that tie to octopus that you

1309
01:46:50,666 --> 01:46:53,166
have? Well, with octopuses, I was like,

1310
01:46:53,500 --> 01:46:55,916
we just come out of the pandemic. And I

1311
01:46:55,916 --> 01:46:58,958
had read Simon gumrys amazing book where

1312
01:46:58,958 --> 01:47:00,916
she went and hung up with octopuses.

1313
01:47:00,958 --> 01:47:04,708
Yeah. And the Shaw Center for the Salish

1314
01:47:04,708 --> 01:47:07,833
Sea in Sydney, which is like 30 minutes

1315
01:47:07,833 --> 01:47:09,833
from my house. And I said, Are you guys

1316
01:47:09,833 --> 01:47:12,833
cool with me just coming out and watching

1317
01:47:12,833 --> 01:47:17,291
people watch your octopuses? Right? So I

1318
01:47:17,291 --> 01:47:21,708
just watched kids and adults watching

1319
01:47:21,708 --> 01:47:25,666
mostly this octopus named storm. And

1320
01:47:25,666 --> 01:47:28,416
after I'd been great, like

1321
01:47:28,416 --> 01:47:29,583
one of those great octopus.

1322
01:47:29,958 --> 01:47:35,000
Yeah. And finally, it's really

1323
01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:36,833
interesting. They're very careful with

1324
01:47:36,833 --> 01:47:40,125
who they let meet their octopuses there

1325
01:47:40,125 --> 01:47:42,416
because they return them. They've got a

1326
01:47:42,416 --> 01:47:44,000
really interesting policy where they're

1327
01:47:44,000 --> 01:47:47,041
like, you know what? We are in the center

1328
01:47:47,041 --> 01:47:49,875
of where these guys live. So we're only

1329
01:47:49,875 --> 01:47:51,916
going to keep them six months. Right.

1330
01:47:52,166 --> 01:47:55,875
And storm had a really interesting story

1331
01:47:55,875 --> 01:48:01,291
because she was basically captured and

1332
01:48:01,291 --> 01:48:04,791
was on route to Iceland where she would

1333
01:48:04,791 --> 01:48:06,625
have spent her entire life in captivity

1334
01:48:06,625 --> 01:48:10,000
and a storm kept her

1335
01:48:10,000 --> 01:48:11,583
from flying out to Iceland.

1336
01:48:12,291 --> 01:48:15,791
And instead of short term at the state of

1337
01:48:15,791 --> 01:48:17,041
season, they went, you know, we can just

1338
01:48:17,041 --> 01:48:19,416
find another octopus. So why doesn't she

1339
01:48:19,416 --> 01:48:23,375
just stay with you? And then she was

1340
01:48:23,375 --> 01:48:24,625
supposed to be returned. I think she

1341
01:48:24,625 --> 01:48:25,791
stayed with them longer than any other

1342
01:48:25,791 --> 01:48:29,208
octopus because we had fires and they

1343
01:48:29,208 --> 01:48:32,333
could not get her home. And so her story

1344
01:48:32,333 --> 01:48:36,458
became a wild story in terms of terrible

1345
01:48:36,458 --> 01:48:37,583
weather effects we have here now.

1346
01:48:38,166 --> 01:48:46,041
And they were kind enough to let me put a

1347
01:48:46,041 --> 01:48:48,166
hand into storms tank right before she

1348
01:48:48,166 --> 01:48:50,875
left. Right. And storm we shut and shook

1349
01:48:50,875 --> 01:48:52,458
my hand. I'm like, yeah, that's my

1350
01:48:52,458 --> 01:48:56,333
opening. Like I knew I actually as soon

1351
01:48:56,333 --> 01:48:58,666
as I left, I'm like, I went to a cafe

1352
01:48:58,666 --> 01:49:00,500
right around the corner from and I wrote

1353
01:49:00,500 --> 01:49:01,916
the introductory chapter. And I went, yeah, I've just just right then and there.

1354
01:49:01,958 --> 01:49:06,625
Yeah, I was just like, I should cancel

1355
01:49:06,625 --> 01:49:08,166
the octopus. Everything else in the

1356
01:49:08,166 --> 01:49:09,833
entire book may change. This is my

1357
01:49:09,833 --> 01:49:13,041
opening. Because it was shows it you had

1358
01:49:13,041 --> 01:49:16,166
that connection. Yeah, that was the

1359
01:49:16,166 --> 01:49:17,583
inspiration right at that connection.

1360
01:49:18,125 --> 01:49:19,916
Yeah, she reached out. She said, Hey,

1361
01:49:20,666 --> 01:49:22,583
decided I was nowhere near as interesting

1362
01:49:22,583 --> 01:49:26,000
as the crab she was eating. But, you

1363
01:49:26,000 --> 01:49:27,916
know, and did she recognize me as the guy I've been watching her off and on for six months?

1364
01:49:28,958 --> 01:49:35,708
Probably because they know stuff. Right?

1365
01:49:35,708 --> 01:49:37,583
Like story after story that I read about

1366
01:49:37,583 --> 01:49:39,125
optimuses and interview after interview,

1367
01:49:39,125 --> 01:49:41,041
it was like, yeah, yeah, they recognize

1368
01:49:41,041 --> 01:49:42,833
keepers they recognize certain people.

1369
01:49:43,375 --> 01:49:46,125
And I mean, running into stories with

1370
01:49:46,125 --> 01:49:48,875
animals with sense of humor. That's just

1371
01:49:48,875 --> 01:49:51,916
weird. Right? Like just going, yeah, they

1372
01:49:51,916 --> 01:49:54,458
spray somebody because they want to or,

1373
01:49:54,458 --> 01:49:56,916
you know, one of the wildest things that I've ever seen in my life is just how it is.

1374
01:49:56,958 --> 01:49:58,500
And I think one of the wildest stories

1375
01:49:58,500 --> 01:50:01,541
really stuck with me was Chester the

1376
01:50:01,541 --> 01:50:02,625
false killer whale, the anchor for

1377
01:50:02,625 --> 01:50:07,291
Korean. And I asked this is an animal.

1378
01:50:07,583 --> 01:50:10,166
This is false killer whale who washed up.

1379
01:50:10,166 --> 01:50:12,041
I remember correctly on the beach. Not

1380
01:50:12,041 --> 01:50:13,416
some I've never written about Chester,

1381
01:50:14,000 --> 01:50:16,416
but washed up on the beach was taken in

1382
01:50:16,416 --> 01:50:18,625
and they don't know didn't know which

1383
01:50:18,625 --> 01:50:21,291
family Chester belong to and was

1384
01:50:21,291 --> 01:50:24,041
basically doing medical rehab for all

1385
01:50:24,041 --> 01:50:25,916
that time. Chester would have learned.

1386
01:50:25,958 --> 01:50:28,375
How to be a false killer whale. Right?

1387
01:50:28,375 --> 01:50:29,583
It's very hard to explain to people like

1388
01:50:29,583 --> 01:50:33,208
no, no, these animals learn their own

1389
01:50:33,208 --> 01:50:34,750
language. They learn their culture. This

1390
01:50:34,750 --> 01:50:37,166
is even in their dialect for each pod.

1391
01:50:37,166 --> 01:50:39,750
Like there's differences, right? Yeah. So

1392
01:50:39,750 --> 01:50:43,000
I said, you know, I asked what seemed

1393
01:50:43,000 --> 01:50:44,333
like a really normal question. I said,

1394
01:50:44,333 --> 01:50:46,750
you know, what's Chester like? And the

1395
01:50:46,750 --> 01:50:47,875
person who was showing

1396
01:50:47,875 --> 01:50:48,666
us around the crime what?

1397
01:50:50,708 --> 01:50:53,333
Wasn't sure what same kind of an asshole

1398
01:50:53,333 --> 01:50:57,500
like what? Yeah, that was my I was like,

1399
01:50:57,500 --> 01:51:02,291
what? And they said, Chester has this

1400
01:51:02,291 --> 01:51:05,375
game and just discovered that when

1401
01:51:05,375 --> 01:51:07,000
there's when there's a lot of people

1402
01:51:07,000 --> 01:51:10,583
around, especially kids, Chester will

1403
01:51:10,583 --> 01:51:14,500
sink like a stone to the bottom of his

1404
01:51:14,500 --> 01:51:17,916
tank and wait till people scream and cry.

1405
01:51:18,083 --> 01:51:21,833
And then pop back up and go, I'm fine.

1406
01:51:21,833 --> 01:51:25,333
They said they dubbed it the resurrection

1407
01:51:25,333 --> 01:51:29,791
game because Chester was clearly messing.

1408
01:51:29,791 --> 01:51:32,458
Yeah, Chester was clearly messing with

1409
01:51:32,458 --> 01:51:35,875
the people. They are like and what stuck

1410
01:51:35,875 --> 01:51:37,875
with me about that was the idea that

1411
01:51:37,875 --> 01:51:42,083
people who were there were very like they

1412
01:51:42,083 --> 01:51:43,666
weren't comfortable saying Chester to

1413
01:51:43,666 --> 01:51:45,708
personality, but they admitted

1414
01:51:45,708 --> 01:51:46,916
Chester to personality. Right?

1415
01:51:47,250 --> 01:51:49,958
And the idea of the personalities of

1416
01:51:49,958 --> 01:51:51,833
these animals, the fact that every single

1417
01:51:51,833 --> 01:51:53,833
person I've spoken to who's an octopus

1418
01:51:53,833 --> 01:51:55,666
expert is like, oh, yeah, they are so

1419
01:51:55,666 --> 01:51:58,791
different. And again, shark people are

1420
01:51:58,791 --> 01:52:00,500
like, oh, you have met shy sharks. I've

1421
01:52:00,500 --> 01:52:04,791
met friendly sharks. Yeah, that's like

1422
01:52:04,791 --> 01:52:06,916
trying to get across their individuals.

1423
01:52:06,958 --> 01:52:11,625
Well, I like, Mark, I have like I did the

1424
01:52:11,625 --> 01:52:12,958
Toronto Zoo podcast for a long time. I

1425
01:52:12,958 --> 01:52:14,208
hosted it and I got to talk to

1426
01:52:14,208 --> 01:52:15,625
zookeepers. And one of the things that we

1427
01:52:15,625 --> 01:52:17,625
had with a special was like stories from

1428
01:52:17,625 --> 01:52:19,041
the zookeepers. And they would talk about

1429
01:52:19,041 --> 01:52:20,958
their silverback gorillas and they would

1430
01:52:20,958 --> 01:52:22,750
talk about the personalities. There was

1431
01:52:22,750 --> 01:52:24,625
one. I think it was like Josephine's

1432
01:52:24,625 --> 01:52:26,333
daughter. I forget her name. She used to

1433
01:52:26,333 --> 01:52:27,833
love hats. She used to see people wear

1434
01:52:27,833 --> 01:52:29,958
hats. So they gave her hats and she would

1435
01:52:29,958 --> 01:52:31,666
try them on in a mirror and see how she

1436
01:52:31,666 --> 01:52:33,958
looked like a massive

1437
01:52:33,958 --> 01:52:35,958
silverback gorilla would try on a.

1438
01:52:36,958 --> 01:52:39,958
A hat like like and I mean sun hats, ball

1439
01:52:39,958 --> 01:52:41,791
caps, like everything she would see. And

1440
01:52:41,791 --> 01:52:42,708
then she'd like, oh, that looks

1441
01:52:42,708 --> 01:52:43,750
interesting. And they would give her old

1442
01:52:43,750 --> 01:52:46,375
hats and they should try them on. And

1443
01:52:46,375 --> 01:52:48,500
they're the troop leader. You know, big,

1444
01:52:48,500 --> 01:52:51,166
big silverback, scary, like typical. Like

1445
01:52:51,166 --> 01:52:52,708
you do not want to mess. This guy will

1446
01:52:52,708 --> 01:52:53,666
rip off your arms in a

1447
01:52:53,666 --> 01:52:55,000
second if he really wanted to.

1448
01:52:55,291 --> 01:52:56,750
Never did. Of course, he was very gentle.

1449
01:52:57,458 --> 01:53:00,708
He was afraid of frogs. Afraid of frogs.

1450
01:53:01,250 --> 01:53:02,958
Okay, think about it. Like imagine,

1451
01:53:02,958 --> 01:53:04,791
imagine you see. And this is the keeper

1452
01:53:04,791 --> 01:53:05,750
said this. They saw one

1453
01:53:05,750 --> 01:53:05,916
time there was a frog.

1454
01:53:05,958 --> 01:53:10,583
In the in their enclosure and all these

1455
01:53:10,583 --> 01:53:12,791
gorillas were were like were like

1456
01:53:12,791 --> 01:53:14,916
surrounding this frog and you see Charles

1457
01:53:14,916 --> 01:53:17,208
just kind of like flick it and like what

1458
01:53:17,208 --> 01:53:18,750
and it would jump and they'd all like

1459
01:53:18,750 --> 01:53:20,208
back up like these massive

1460
01:53:20,208 --> 01:53:22,125
troops of like massive gorillas.

1461
01:53:22,125 --> 01:53:23,666
A troop of massive gorillas just would

1462
01:53:23,666 --> 01:53:25,833
like be afraid and there was one time and

1463
01:53:25,833 --> 01:53:26,708
I'll tell this story quick because I know

1464
01:53:26,708 --> 01:53:27,875
this interviews about you. There's one

1465
01:53:27,875 --> 01:53:30,041
time where they all where they were

1466
01:53:30,041 --> 01:53:31,458
coming out of their nightly enclosure

1467
01:53:31,458 --> 01:53:31,916
like their bed area. Yeah.

1468
01:53:31,958 --> 01:53:35,041
And they came out and Charles stopped all

1469
01:53:35,041 --> 01:53:36,958
them and they put them all back into

1470
01:53:36,958 --> 01:53:38,583
their bed area and you wouldn't come out

1471
01:53:38,583 --> 01:53:41,375
and like what is going on and they looked

1472
01:53:41,375 --> 01:53:42,333
around. They looked around. They look

1473
01:53:42,333 --> 01:53:44,541
around. There was a tree frog in the back

1474
01:53:44,541 --> 01:53:46,416
corner and he saw it. He

1475
01:53:46,416 --> 01:53:46,916
wouldn't let any of them out.

1476
01:53:46,958 --> 01:53:50,625
So you so afraid of this to the point

1477
01:53:50,625 --> 01:53:52,958
where we I was out there with my daughter

1478
01:53:52,958 --> 01:53:54,500
and we went to watch. She wants to be a

1479
01:53:54,500 --> 01:53:55,833
wildlife biologist or watching all these

1480
01:53:55,833 --> 01:53:57,125
animals and I'm telling her about all

1481
01:53:57,125 --> 01:53:59,041
these these different animals and the

1482
01:53:59,041 --> 01:54:00,958
different characteristics of each one and

1483
01:54:00,958 --> 01:54:02,958
you see like this outdoor enclosure and

1484
01:54:02,958 --> 01:54:04,083
there's like you know it's a cage

1485
01:54:04,083 --> 01:54:06,166
obviously reinforced cage and you get to

1486
01:54:06,166 --> 01:54:08,000
see these girls like you're not that far

1487
01:54:08,000 --> 01:54:09,000
but you can see them

1488
01:54:09,000 --> 01:54:09,916
and they're just amazing.

1489
01:54:11,250 --> 01:54:12,916
There's one area case that had like a

1490
01:54:12,916 --> 01:54:14,208
little cutout. It was like it was

1491
01:54:14,208 --> 01:54:15,708
reinforced with something else because

1492
01:54:15,708 --> 01:54:17,833
like maybe the enclosure broke or

1493
01:54:17,833 --> 01:54:19,916
something like that. But it looked like

1494
01:54:19,916 --> 01:54:23,208
it was fixed and on there was a picture

1495
01:54:23,208 --> 01:54:25,916
of a frog like right dead smack in the

1496
01:54:25,916 --> 01:54:28,166
middle of that area that was fixed. It

1497
01:54:28,166 --> 01:54:29,916
was a picture of a frog and do you think

1498
01:54:29,916 --> 01:54:31,750
the girls went close to

1499
01:54:31,750 --> 01:54:32,916
it when they went near it.

1500
01:54:32,958 --> 01:54:36,625
They would run to skirt by it so they

1501
01:54:36,625 --> 01:54:37,625
could get rid of it. They wouldn't run

1502
01:54:37,625 --> 01:54:38,916
anywhere else but they would walk walk

1503
01:54:38,916 --> 01:54:40,583
walk nice and slow and then it would like

1504
01:54:40,583 --> 01:54:42,375
like run like they were afraid because

1505
01:54:42,375 --> 01:54:44,125
there was a frog on there.

1506
01:54:44,333 --> 01:54:47,041
You're telling me all the I love that so

1507
01:54:47,041 --> 01:54:48,666
they all have their different

1508
01:54:48,666 --> 01:54:50,000
personalities. They all have their

1509
01:54:50,000 --> 01:54:51,958
things. Some of them are devious. Some of

1510
01:54:51,958 --> 01:54:53,666
them are tricksters. Some of them are fun

1511
01:54:53,666 --> 01:54:56,458
and cuddly and and they're just amazing

1512
01:54:56,458 --> 01:54:59,916
to watch and and it's phenomenal to see

1513
01:54:59,916 --> 01:55:01,750
these these characteristics and I'm sure

1514
01:55:01,750 --> 01:55:01,916
if you see orcas in the wild.

1515
01:55:01,958 --> 01:55:04,291
They're octopus in the wild. I mean my

1516
01:55:04,291 --> 01:55:06,625
octopus teacher wanted Grammy for not

1517
01:55:06,625 --> 01:55:08,958
Grammy but an Academy Award for for that

1518
01:55:08,958 --> 01:55:12,000
movie because you saw the personality of

1519
01:55:12,000 --> 01:55:14,250
an octopus. Well that was one of the

1520
01:55:14,250 --> 01:55:15,291
things that came up when I was hanging

1521
01:55:15,291 --> 01:55:19,625
out at the center facility was oh my god

1522
01:55:19,625 --> 01:55:21,750
everybody had seen that movie. So it was

1523
01:55:21,750 --> 01:55:24,333
pretty cool when Craig Foster read

1524
01:55:24,333 --> 01:55:25,916
Octopus Ocean went yes you're all right

1525
01:55:25,916 --> 01:55:28,666
you're nice blurb and gave and did a bit

1526
01:55:28,666 --> 01:55:29,458
of a fact check and I'm

1527
01:55:29,458 --> 01:55:30,916
like yeah awesome nice nice.

1528
01:55:30,958 --> 01:55:34,750
Nice. Nice. You know like okay I feel

1529
01:55:34,750 --> 01:55:40,041
very official now. I love it. I love it.

1530
01:55:40,041 --> 01:55:42,125
So like so like for what do you what do

1531
01:55:42,125 --> 01:55:45,625
you want people to get out of octopus

1532
01:55:45,625 --> 01:55:50,000
ocean with octopus ocean. I want to get

1533
01:55:50,000 --> 01:55:52,625
across the word not the only with so many

1534
01:55:52,625 --> 01:55:54,458
of these now that were not the only

1535
01:55:54,458 --> 01:55:57,625
intelligent animals on this planet. Yeah

1536
01:55:57,625 --> 01:55:59,541
right. Just the more I

1537
01:55:59,541 --> 01:55:59,916
learned the more it's like.

1538
01:55:59,958 --> 01:56:03,541
Oh wow the whole human exceptionalism

1539
01:56:03,541 --> 01:56:06,625
thing makes no sense at all because again

1540
01:56:06,625 --> 01:56:08,916
coming at this without a science

1541
01:56:08,916 --> 01:56:12,500
background. I started by saying okay so

1542
01:56:12,500 --> 01:56:14,541
walk me through the whole food chain

1543
01:56:14,541 --> 01:56:16,166
concept like walk me through why we're

1544
01:56:16,166 --> 01:56:17,875
considered the best the

1545
01:56:17,875 --> 01:56:18,916
coolest animal on earth.

1546
01:56:20,333 --> 01:56:22,916
And I just like for real I just assumed

1547
01:56:22,916 --> 01:56:26,125
there was a scientific basis to this I

1548
01:56:26,125 --> 01:56:28,083
just assumed somebody's gonna say well

1549
01:56:28,083 --> 01:56:30,166
humans can do this and this and this and

1550
01:56:30,166 --> 01:56:32,541
I would hear all the stuff is like man

1551
01:56:32,541 --> 01:56:34,541
the tool maker. Yeah crows do that you

1552
01:56:34,541 --> 01:56:37,041
know like you could just break down like

1553
01:56:37,041 --> 01:56:39,625
or no how to make nets with bubbles.

1554
01:56:40,375 --> 01:56:44,833
Yeah, like that's cool right and crows

1555
01:56:44,833 --> 01:56:47,166
know how to make keys and you just start

1556
01:56:47,166 --> 01:56:49,291
to go through the animals like okay that

1557
01:56:49,291 --> 01:56:52,125
doesn't hold up and I mean one of the

1558
01:56:52,125 --> 01:56:55,916
gifts of of of being a social instructor

1559
01:56:55,916 --> 01:56:58,333
at the University of Victoria was I've

1560
01:56:58,333 --> 01:57:00,791
had access to like amazing students who

1561
01:57:00,791 --> 01:57:02,916
have studied science and for orcas

1562
01:57:02,916 --> 01:57:04,500
everywhere I got I was basically

1563
01:57:06,416 --> 01:57:08,041
a history prof is a friend of mine who

1564
01:57:08,041 --> 01:57:09,916
was also doing a book on orcas basement.

1565
01:57:10,416 --> 01:57:12,375
I have like a bunch extra hours with my

1566
01:57:12,375 --> 01:57:14,291
master student. Do you want her to help

1567
01:57:14,291 --> 01:57:16,833
you do research and she does she knows

1568
01:57:16,833 --> 01:57:19,291
marine biology and I would just go okay

1569
01:57:19,291 --> 01:57:21,041
Lily walk me through this I said so I'm

1570
01:57:21,041 --> 01:57:22,708
not asking a really dumb question to a

1571
01:57:22,708 --> 01:57:23,625
scientist I'm going to ask

1572
01:57:23,625 --> 01:57:24,916
the dumb questions to you.

1573
01:57:25,166 --> 01:57:27,666
Yeah, I haven't because I have not taken

1574
01:57:27,666 --> 01:57:30,916
first year marine biology right so I

1575
01:57:30,916 --> 01:57:33,000
would ask questions especially around

1576
01:57:33,000 --> 01:57:36,916
human exceptionalism basically which I

1577
01:57:36,916 --> 01:57:39,541
not a term that I knew when I started

1578
01:57:39,541 --> 01:57:44,041
this you know all these years ago and I

1579
01:57:44,041 --> 01:57:46,583
kept thinking I would find a science

1580
01:57:46,583 --> 01:57:49,750
behind it and what I found was this was

1581
01:57:49,750 --> 01:57:52,208
the one place science really was

1582
01:57:52,208 --> 01:57:52,916
deferring to religion.

1583
01:57:52,958 --> 01:57:55,416
And pretending there was science behind

1584
01:57:55,416 --> 01:57:57,916
it but really going yeah we're the only

1585
01:57:57,916 --> 01:58:00,875
ones who have language and let's define

1586
01:58:00,875 --> 01:58:03,000
language to make sure make sure of that

1587
01:58:03,000 --> 01:58:05,416
right right let's make sure our

1588
01:58:05,416 --> 01:58:08,166
definition of language excludes anything

1589
01:58:08,166 --> 01:58:10,000
else that could conceivably be language

1590
01:58:10,000 --> 01:58:13,166
and interesting that we that we just kept

1591
01:58:13,166 --> 01:58:14,916
moving the goalposts and again.

1592
01:58:15,958 --> 01:58:19,000
I came at this expecting there to be

1593
01:58:19,000 --> 01:58:21,666
goalposts I really did I didn't come out

1594
01:58:21,666 --> 01:58:24,500
this contrary I came out this knowing

1595
01:58:24,500 --> 01:58:27,500
nothing so I came out this going what is

1596
01:58:27,500 --> 01:58:29,333
this anthropomorphism thing you speak of

1597
01:58:29,333 --> 01:58:32,916
why am I supposed to why is it a thing in

1598
01:58:32,916 --> 01:58:35,458
science walk me through this and going oh

1599
01:58:35,458 --> 01:58:37,208
there's no scientific basis for this at

1600
01:58:37,208 --> 01:58:40,166
all right there's no like walk me through

1601
01:58:40,166 --> 01:58:41,916
the science of why this is a bad thing.

1602
01:58:42,458 --> 01:58:45,500
You know like my favorite was friends to

1603
01:58:45,500 --> 01:58:46,500
all talk me through.

1604
01:58:48,083 --> 01:58:52,916
I'm sorry if a three year old sees a

1605
01:58:52,916 --> 01:58:54,875
tickle induced vocalizations there oh the

1606
01:58:54,875 --> 01:58:56,375
monkey's laughing yes the monkey's

1607
01:58:56,375 --> 01:58:58,583
laughing yeah yeah yeah yeah different

1608
01:58:58,583 --> 01:59:01,958
term different yeah and with the orca

1609
01:59:01,958 --> 01:59:05,250
book I saw oh man I saw one scientist

1610
01:59:05,250 --> 01:59:08,416
like wrap themselves in knots to come up

1611
01:59:08,416 --> 01:59:12,166
with a term that basically made sure you

1612
01:59:12,166 --> 01:59:14,500
did not it may have been the sharks in

1613
01:59:14,500 --> 01:59:15,916
France and just made sure they they made sure that they were not.

1614
01:59:15,958 --> 01:59:19,041
made sure they they have affiliates like

1615
01:59:19,041 --> 01:59:23,000
really yeah the the big one for me was

1616
01:59:23,000 --> 01:59:26,500
taliqua because taliqua just rocked my

1617
01:59:26,500 --> 01:59:28,833
world and I so wanted to do another

1618
01:59:28,833 --> 01:59:30,166
killer whale who changed the world

1619
01:59:30,166 --> 01:59:32,583
because she's the other one who did and

1620
01:59:32,583 --> 01:59:36,291
when I saw I think it was the New York

1621
01:59:36,291 --> 01:59:39,333
Times go the orca appears to be grieving

1622
01:59:39,333 --> 01:59:42,291
and I thought no humans may appear to be

1623
01:59:42,291 --> 01:59:44,541
grieving I have seen humans at funerals

1624
01:59:44,541 --> 01:59:45,500
where they were going oh

1625
01:59:45,500 --> 01:59:45,916
I'm glad that they were

1626
01:59:45,958 --> 01:59:48,166
that person's in the box right I'm so

1627
01:59:48,166 --> 01:59:49,791
glad that I do not believe.

1628
01:59:50,500 --> 01:59:52,791
Tala was faking us out here I don't

1629
01:59:52,791 --> 01:59:54,125
believe she appears to be good.

1630
01:59:55,666 --> 01:59:59,333
So how can we go humans great we know

1631
01:59:59,333 --> 02:00:00,416
exactly that all of

1632
02:00:00,416 --> 02:00:01,916
all human grief is legit.

1633
02:00:02,958 --> 02:00:06,083
I cannot know what is going on. Yeah, no,

1634
02:00:06,083 --> 02:00:09,750
no, you're trying way too hard to sound

1635
02:00:09,750 --> 02:00:11,500
like we have signs and you're just like

1636
02:00:11,500 --> 02:00:13,500
hold on a second here like well and then

1637
02:00:13,500 --> 02:00:15,375
you can just like it's sentimental

1638
02:00:15,375 --> 02:00:18,708
version of this, you know and oh and you

1639
02:00:18,708 --> 02:00:20,458
can call it whatever you want but it's

1640
02:00:20,458 --> 02:00:23,041
it's very similar to what we do right and

1641
02:00:23,041 --> 02:00:24,833
then you get into science which again was

1642
02:00:24,833 --> 02:00:27,250
all new to me right and you get into

1643
02:00:27,250 --> 02:00:29,750
science of mirror neurons and going okay

1644
02:00:29,750 --> 02:00:31,666
so these orcas have the

1645
02:00:31,958 --> 02:00:34,291
and the apes have the exact same neurons

1646
02:00:34,291 --> 02:00:37,000
that are referred to as the neurons that

1647
02:00:37,000 --> 02:00:40,125
make us human. So the neurons that deal

1648
02:00:40,125 --> 02:00:42,458
with complex emotions like grief, they've

1649
02:00:42,458 --> 02:00:44,958
got them. So they've got the exact same

1650
02:00:44,958 --> 02:00:46,666
neurons we do, but they

1651
02:00:46,666 --> 02:00:47,583
don't have the same emotions.

1652
02:00:50,166 --> 02:00:53,500
So yeah, crazy. Yeah, crazy. I love it. I

1653
02:00:53,500 --> 02:00:55,500
love this conversation. You and I could

1654
02:00:55,500 --> 02:00:58,583
probably talk for hours on this and I'm

1655
02:00:58,583 --> 02:01:00,458
sure we will have you back on to be able

1656
02:01:00,458 --> 02:01:02,083
to talk more about your next

1657
02:01:02,083 --> 02:01:03,375
book that you'll be writing.

1658
02:01:04,500 --> 02:01:06,041
And then and but this is awesome if

1659
02:01:06,041 --> 02:01:08,375
people want to get a hold of this and

1660
02:01:08,375 --> 02:01:09,833
this copy, how would they do so?

1661
02:01:10,958 --> 02:01:13,833
Oh, learn young calm the books available

1662
02:01:13,833 --> 02:01:16,083
everywhere you buy books. So all the

1663
02:01:16,083 --> 02:01:19,875
books are and learn young calm or scan or

1664
02:01:19,875 --> 02:01:22,708
for the podcast look up scan and ask a

1665
02:01:22,708 --> 02:01:24,958
and a and you get my podcast and you get

1666
02:01:24,958 --> 02:01:28,291
my interview with Andrew and learn young

1667
02:01:28,291 --> 02:01:29,541
calm and you can check the

1668
02:01:29,541 --> 02:01:31,666
spelling out but spell it out.

1669
02:01:31,958 --> 02:01:33,666
I'll post it in the show notes so they so

1670
02:01:33,666 --> 02:01:35,583
they get access to it. Mark, this has

1671
02:01:35,583 --> 02:01:38,375
been such a treat to have you on really

1672
02:01:38,375 --> 02:01:40,333
appreciate it's always great to to

1673
02:01:40,333 --> 02:01:42,291
interview, not only a fellow podcaster

1674
02:01:42,291 --> 02:01:44,791
but someone who writes, you know, from a

1675
02:01:44,791 --> 02:01:45,916
non scientist point of view,

1676
02:01:45,958 --> 02:01:48,041
where it's science books and just gets it

1677
02:01:48,041 --> 02:01:50,541
gets it like we we get it and it's it's

1678
02:01:50,541 --> 02:01:52,458
so great. And I love the connection you

1679
02:01:52,458 --> 02:01:54,083
have with the ocean and with the orcas

1680
02:01:54,083 --> 02:01:56,041
and I can't wait to go or go watching

1681
02:01:56,041 --> 02:01:57,791
with you someday. It'd be a lot. Yes, we

1682
02:01:57,791 --> 02:01:59,375
said thank you so much for all of you do.

1683
02:01:59,375 --> 02:02:00,083
I love your podcast.

1684
02:02:00,833 --> 02:02:02,375
Thank you. I appreciate it. Talk to you

1685
02:02:02,375 --> 02:02:04,000
soon. Thank you, Mark, for joining us on

1686
02:02:04,000 --> 02:02:05,875
today's episode of the How to Protect the

1687
02:02:05,875 --> 02:02:08,750
Ocean podcast and bringing the magic of

1688
02:02:08,750 --> 02:02:11,625
storytelling, bringing the importance of

1689
02:02:11,625 --> 02:02:13,875
connection to these animals to orcas to

1690
02:02:13,875 --> 02:02:14,916
octopuses to sharks and to the people that are in the ocean.

1691
02:02:14,958 --> 02:02:21,000
I just, you know, scientists have this

1692
02:02:21,000 --> 02:02:23,125
bond. We we we have colleagues. We have

1693
02:02:23,125 --> 02:02:25,000
they turn into friends. Some of them are

1694
02:02:25,000 --> 02:02:26,500
colleagues. Some of them, you know, you

1695
02:02:26,500 --> 02:02:28,208
get a criticism from them. They might be

1696
02:02:28,208 --> 02:02:30,000
enemies, whatever that might be. But

1697
02:02:30,000 --> 02:02:31,750
there's this ultimate connection that we

1698
02:02:31,750 --> 02:02:34,500
all have. And it's not just scientists.

1699
02:02:34,500 --> 02:02:35,916
It goes to ocean conservationists. It goes to storytellers. It goes to writers. It goes to filmmakers. We we all have something in common in that we've connected with the ocean. We've connected with each other.

1700
02:02:44,833 --> 02:02:47,541
And when we have this connection, we want

1701
02:02:47,541 --> 02:02:48,875
to tell people stories. It's the

1702
02:02:48,875 --> 02:02:50,541
connection that I have with a lot of the

1703
02:02:50,541 --> 02:02:52,083
guests that I've had on, you know, it's

1704
02:02:52,083 --> 02:02:53,750
meeting them at conferences, meeting them

1705
02:02:53,750 --> 02:02:55,958
online and having them on the podcast and

1706
02:02:55,958 --> 02:02:56,916
hearing them tell their stories gives me that connection gives me that inspiration where after I leave this after I've done this intro, I'm doing this right after the interview. I leave this my office and I'm just like, that's the way I'm going to do it.

1707
02:03:08,250 --> 02:03:10,416
And I think it's, you know, you want to

1708
02:03:10,416 --> 02:03:12,000
do that. You want to pay tribute to the

1709
02:03:12,000 --> 02:03:13,750
people that you interviewed to the people

1710
02:03:13,750 --> 02:03:14,958
that your colleagues with the people

1711
02:03:14,958 --> 02:03:16,333
who've had these extraordinary

1712
02:03:16,333 --> 02:03:17,916
experiences, whether it be science, whether it be conservation, whether it be writing about them or creating a film about them. There is this incessant like connection that we all share and we all want to pay tribute to that. And to watch more of that, I think it's really important to us to be able to do that.

1713
02:03:24,750 --> 02:03:28,500
And to watch Mark pay tribute to his

1714
02:03:28,500 --> 02:03:31,666
heroes, you know, to Paul Watson, to Rob

1715
02:03:31,666 --> 02:03:34,333
Stewart, you know, to other podcasters

1716
02:03:34,333 --> 02:03:36,791
and so forth. It's amazing to see that

1717
02:03:36,791 --> 02:03:37,833
it's just amazing to see that

1718
02:03:37,833 --> 02:03:39,666
collaboration that ability to tell those

1719
02:03:39,666 --> 02:03:39,916
stories and feel that connection and then pay tribute to the people by telling
other stories, their stories through books, through the eyes and vision.

1720
02:03:45,583 --> 02:03:50,958
Of orcas through other whales through

1721
02:03:50,958 --> 02:03:53,291
octopuses is just phenomenal. And I

1722
02:03:53,291 --> 02:03:54,916
absolutely love it. There's a point

1723
02:03:54,916 --> 02:03:56,333
where, you know, markets a little

1724
02:03:56,333 --> 02:03:58,125
emotional telling with the story. And you

1725
02:03:58,125 --> 02:03:59,666
can just see that he's so into it that

1726
02:03:59,666 --> 02:04:00,916
the connections that he's had with these orcas, the octopuses, you know, the whales, the sharks and the people who have helped them understand the material and tell those stories.

1727
02:04:00,958 --> 02:04:12,625
It's just phenomenal. It's absolutely

1728
02:04:12,625 --> 02:04:14,375
phenomenal. It makes a great interview.

1729
02:04:14,375 --> 02:04:16,250
It makes a great episode. Love to hear

1730
02:04:16,250 --> 02:04:19,583
what you think of this episode. Go and go

1731
02:04:19,583 --> 02:04:22,833
to my DMS on Instagram. DM me at how to

1732
02:04:22,833 --> 02:04:24,083
protect the ocean. Let me know how you

1733
02:04:24,083 --> 02:04:25,541
feel. If you're watching this on YouTube,

1734
02:04:25,541 --> 02:04:25,916
just let me know how you feel about this episode and that connection and share a connection that you might
have with the specific animals, specific animals, specific animals, and that's what I'm going to do.

1735
02:04:31,583 --> 02:04:35,666
I'm going to put the links in to Mark

1736
02:04:35,666 --> 02:04:38,291
Lane Young's website. I'm going to put it

1737
02:04:38,291 --> 02:04:41,000
into how you can buy his book in the show

1738
02:04:41,000 --> 02:04:42,750
notes. So check that out and check in the

1739
02:04:42,750 --> 02:04:43,875
description if you're watching this on

1740
02:04:43,875 --> 02:04:45,666
YouTube. But I want to thank you. I want

1741
02:04:45,666 --> 02:04:47,166
to thank Mark. I want to thank you for

1742
02:04:47,166 --> 02:04:49,000
joining us on today's episode of the how

1743
02:04:49,000 --> 02:04:50,291
to protect the ocean podcast. I'm your

1744
02:04:50,291 --> 02:04:52,291
host, Andrew from the true North strong

1745
02:04:52,291 --> 02:04:53,416
and free. Have a great day.

1746
02:04:53,416 --> 02:04:53,958
We'll talk to you next time.