COP30 Belém: The Hidden Decisions That Could Change the Ocean Forever

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World leaders celebrated the results
of COP30, but a closer look reveals

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that there are gaps that could
shape the future of the ocean.

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In this episode I explained what
was left out and how those decisions

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ripple through marine ecosystems.

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That's what we're gonna talk
about on today's episode of the

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How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody.

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Welcome back to another exciting episode
of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, marine
biologist and science communicator

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here to tell you what's happening with
the ocean, how you can speak up for

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the ocean, and what you can do to live
for a better ocean by taking action.

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Today I am breaking down the major
criticisms of COP30 and explaining

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what they really mean for the ocean.

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We talk a lot about climate.

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We talk a lot about the people.

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We're gonna be putting in
people 'cause you can't have

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people without a planet really.

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But we're gonna be talking about that.

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We're gonna talk from like, from
weak language on fossil fuels

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to confusing finance rules.

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And that new two-track system
that may bury ocean science, but

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also may get a lot more done.

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This summit leaves behind so,
so many unanswered questions.

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We're gonna be talking about that
and we're gonna be talking a lot

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about how specific coastal habitats
like seagrasses can really benefit

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our fight against climate change.

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'cause seagrasses are a carbon sink.

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It takes in CO2 much, much more at a
higher rate than like trees and forests.

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And so having sea grasses, mangroves,
like kelp forests, all these different

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types of coastal plant meadows and coastal
habitats are gonna be really important.

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And that's why I wanna launch a
seagrass podcast with your help.

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You can crowdfund that.

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If you go to speak up for
blue.com/seagrass, you can help launch

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by crowdfunding the Seagrass Effect.

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It's a podcast that looks at
research, science, conservation

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as well as restoration projects.

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While you're doing that and sharing
that information, not only among just

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you and everybody else that listens
to all these different podcasts, but

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you also share it among researchers
who are kind of disconnected in this

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whole seagrass around the world.

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So we want to connect those seagrass
researchers and the research, the

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conservation, the restoration, all
sorts of things in the science.

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And you can do that by funding
the launch of the podcast by

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going to speak up for blue.com.

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Forward slash seagrass.

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Not only do you help share information
among researchers and amongst yourselves,

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but you also contribute to restoring
Seagrass Meadows, which are wonderful.

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When you restore seagrass meadows,

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it just makes not only helps
fight climate change, but

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it brings biodiversity up.

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It stabilizes the local area that
you're doing the restoration in.

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And it brings back water
quality, brings back just that

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stability and it's really great.

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So speak up for blue.com/seagrass is the
place to go to be a part of that launch.

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But today we're talking COP30
and I'm telling you, every time I

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do this, I get a little worried.

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I hear COP30, everybody's
making a big deal about it.

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And you know, in the past they've had it
in countries where fossil fuel dominated

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and there's a good and bad to that.

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The bad is that it's in
a fossil fuel country.

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Some of the governments they
actually control the fossil fuels

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like the oil and gas industry.

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Others don't control it, but they,
a lot of their economy is based

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on oil and gas, the fossil fuels.

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And so it kind of becomes a little
bad because they're gonna obviously

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want to continue to use fossil
fuels and oil and gas that's all in

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the Middle East, that's been there
in the past and in parts of Asia.

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It becomes a very difficult aspect
to really think about how can

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these COPs, you know, 28, 29.

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How could they do really well
when it's in country that is based

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where the focus is on oil and gas.

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Now, a lot of countries are very
energy based and fossil fuels is

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still one of the most dominant energy
suppliers or sources that we have.

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But we need to move away from that.

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So that's what these COPs are for,
these Conventions of Parties to

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discuss climate change, to use the
Paris Agreement as a focus on this and

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to divest our energy needs away from
fossil fuels, which are harmful to the

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planet and more towards renewable energy.

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Those were what we hope every time
we get into a COP it would do that.

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This time it's in Belem.

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I think I'm pronouncing it
probably Belem, Brazil.

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It's a very important area.

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You have the Amazon Forest, you have
a lot of indigenous populations there.

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A lot of different indigenous populations
that have a direct consequence of

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deforestation, not having a say in their
future, getting impacted by mining, by

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farming practices throughout the Amazon.

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So that's a big problem.

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And Brazil still has an oil and gas
sector, so it's a very interesting

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place to put the COP30 for this year.

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And so we're gonna see what
happened in this, and I'm gonna

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tell you it's not the best news.

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There's some silver linings in
there but not the best news.

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So we're gonna go over those weaknesses.

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And the big thing was the weakness
in fossil fuel commitments.

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So COP30 did not adopt any kind
of clear fossil fuel phase out.

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They just didn't even include
any text around it, which

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is what we were hoping for.

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Many of the countries, there's about 80
countries, including Columbia and others

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who pushed for stronger language and
said, Hey, why don't we have this?

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But the resistance from the producers
softened the final decision.

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Just to let you know, United
States didn't even show up,

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didn't even bring a delegation.

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But there were over 200
fossil fuel lobbyists that

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showed up to the conference.

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Two COP30.

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Imagine that.

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They did the same thing.

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The chemical and oil and gas and the
fossil fuel lobbyists did the same thing

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when we talked about the Plastic Treaty.

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They sent an abundant amount of lobbyists
to put in the interest of the oil and

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gas industry for plastics, oil, and
gas, or the fossil fuel industry is

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very interested in producing plastics.

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It's 30% of their revenue.

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Chemical companies and so forth are also
very interested in plastic production.

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And so here, obviously with COP30,
we're talking about climate change.

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Fossil fuels is a huge cause of
climate change, and there's a

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lot of money to be made in oil
and gas and other fossil fuels.

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They don't wanna lose that.

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So they wanna do everything they can
to disrupt these sort of meetings

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and take over the meetings and make
sure that their interests are heard.

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Now, of course, when you have 200
lobbyists, you're not gonna have a

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lot of people talking about other
things like renewables and stuff,

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and we don't have big lobbyists.

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I don't know the numbers, but 200 for
the fossil fuel industry seems like

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quite a bit and disruptive quite a bit.

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So not having the fossil fuel
language and divesting away from

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fossil fuels and no actual commitments.

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Very disappointing.

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Really takes away everything that was done
at COP30, in my opinion, just having that.

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Then there's the vague climate
finance structure and text.

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So essentially adaptation finance
is supposed to be tripled by

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2035, but it's a little far.

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That's.

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That's far away.

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Not a little far away, that's far away.

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The problem is that there's just
no clear plan on how the money

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will be raised or delivered.

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Who's going to give the money?

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It used to be where the developing
countries that are using fossil fuels

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will be primarily responsible for
providing money to those countries that

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are affected by climate change, by sea
level rise, by increased storm surges and

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increased storm intensity and so forth.

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Countries like the US, Middle
Eastern countries that have a

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lot of fossil fuel industry.

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Canada, a number of other countries we're
going to be, have to, you know, put in

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money to help out these other countries
that are affected by the consequence

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of using a lot of fossil fuels or being
producers of a lot of fossil fuels.

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And so that obviously is a huge problem.

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And it really shows how coastal
communities cannot wait for any kind of

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slow funding because of storms, 'cause
of floods, salt water intrusion and

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fisheries decline that are happening now.

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They can't wait for 2035
to get this type of money.

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We have to come up with a better plan.

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And that's just lack of the United
States not being there, lack of other

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countries not really ready to put in
formal language or stronger language

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to really commit the finance.

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And maybe it's because of the state of
the economy and the world, I don't know.

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But obviously this is not helping and
not having clear commitments to climate

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change reduction and having vague climate
finance language really puts and dates

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and commitments really puts a dent, a huge
dent that takes away everything for COP30.

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Like, why do we even bother
having these meetings?

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So that's a problem there.

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59 indicators were adopted, but
critics say that the process was rushed

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to come up with these indicators.

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And some indicators are difficult
for many nations to measure.

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I'm gonna just read out some
of these indicators that I

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was able to drum up here.

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It's really interesting.

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We just have like the top 10, but I won't
read all 10 'cause they're kind of long.

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So there's proportion of population living
in areas of high water stress due to

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climate change or facing increased water
scarcity under projected climate impacts.

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Then there's the share of food
and agriculture production

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that is climate resistant.

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That's an indicator in national
production and the number of countries

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with operational early warning
systems of extreme climate events

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or related events like flood storms,
coastal inundation in place and

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accessible to vulnerable populations.

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Then there's others, like number
of persons or percentage over the

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population whose livelihoods are
supported by adaptation actions.

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For example, payments for ecosystem
based adaptation or employment

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in climate resilience sectors.

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A proportion of national and
sub-national budget that is allocated

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to adaption action or is part of the
means of implementation and adaption.

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So there's a bunch of
those types of things.

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59 indicators.

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But like I've been part of workshops,
like science workshops where we come

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up with indicators, science indicators
to measure conservation, to measure

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indication of protection plans and
making sure something's going well.

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It's extremely difficult
to get everybody to agree.

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It takes years.

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It doesn't take one meeting to do this.

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So obviously they're rushed.

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Now, with that said, there's an
argument to be made that these 59

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that were proposed could change at
the next meeting or in between, and

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others could be proposed instead.

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There's lots of research that goes
into these types of indicators.

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I'm sure there are a lot of people who
are working on those, which would be a

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good episode to discuss, but I'm sure
that if you put up a plan, just like a

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marine protected area when you put them
up, might be a paper park at first.

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You want to build on that, but at
least you get it designated and

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you can build on it over time.

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So that could be one of the reasons
why they just decided to rush it.

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Obviously, something that's not great
'cause good indicators actually matter.

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So they determine how countries, poor
coastal erosion, marine ecosystem

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health, storm impacts, fisheries
vulnerability, and sea level risk.

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In fact, I saw a news piece recently,
a video where, I think it was in

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Alaska where one of the indigenous
population new or in populations,

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their houses were sinking because the
frost, like the ground that used to be

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frozen, the permafrost is now melting.

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And so their houses are just sinking.

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You can't have a house that's sinking.

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They pump out hundreds of gallons
a day of water that's coming in and

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this is where they've been living.

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This is gonna be an area where
they eventually might have to move.

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And that's very disappointing.

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And, you know, obviously, very intrusive.

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It's scary, downright scary for
people to live in, that kind of stuff.

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So that's something
that's really dangerous.

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And then at the end of the
ceremonies, they announced a two

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track system, a new two track system.

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So this is gonna separate.

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So there's gonna be political meetings
that handle high level commitments, and

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then there's gonna be technical meetings
handling implementation, like data

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and reporting, and these indicators.

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Now some critics say that the
split weakens the accountability

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and can hide scientific issues,
especially ocean issues.

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Now, let's be honest here.

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The ocean always takes a
backseat in climate talks.

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You see a lot of forestry talk,
but you don't see a lot of

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seagrass talk, of kelp talk, of
mangrove talk, of salt marsh talk.

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Those are areas in the ocean where we can
maximize and scale up the amount of carbon

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dioxide that is absorbed in these areas.

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That is a huge, huge thing.

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We need to fix that.

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I don't know how that's gonna get
fixed, but we need to bring more

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ocean issues to the table and
not just focus on land issues.

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This is a huge problem we see in Climate
Week New York, Climate Week Toronto.

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Ocean takes a back seat.

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Not enough ocean
representative at these places.

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That can't happen anymore.

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But when you have this two track system
of one, politics, politics, politics talk

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about nothing, which is what they do.

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You get scientific indicators and
all the technical aspects, which

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without the politics might actually
get worked in without people knowing.

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So, you know, certain indicators that
are used or certain research that's done

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may not get a high level or overview
or may not get a lot of exposure.

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That doesn't mean it's not happening or
it doesn't mean it's not going through.

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And it might take away from
any kind of political will.

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So for instance, we know Donald Trump.

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When he hears something he doesn't
like, he tries to kibosh it right away.

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What he doesn't know might
not hurt him, you know?

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And same with other countries.

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What they might not know is pushing
forward might not hurt them.

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So there's that, but that's really bad
when we have to think about that though.

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This process should be done together,
should be done with politics, with

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policy, and as well as the technical
teams, as well as the science

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teams should be working together.

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But this is not what's
happening at this point.

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So like marine topics often sync
to the background when it comes to

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policy discussions and especially when
it becomes separated from science.

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So let's start getting our politicians
and our delegates that are going to these

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meetings to bring up the oceans more.

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And that's what we can do, is we can
actually just bring this together, and

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make sure our government representatives
are talking about the ocean.

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That's a big, big thing.

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It's why do this podcast
increase ocean literacy?

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So if you're a government representative,
you're listening to this, let's talk

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more about the ocean, the good parts,
the bad parts, what we need to fix it.

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Every second breath comes from the ocean,
and that's because it takes carbon dioxide

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outta the atmosphere and it returns
oxygen, but it can only handle certain

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amount of carbon dioxide and methane
gas and so forth, and greenhouse gases.

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Alright, one thing that we never
talk about at the beginning, and

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unfortunately, I keep this to the
end, unfortunately, I don't know why.

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However, there are gaps
in justice inequity.

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In fact, at one point during the
talks, Gavin Newsom was talking

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at COP30 at the beginning.

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And there was a protest,
an indigenous protest.

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A number of representatives from the
indigenous communities that in the

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Amazon came in, they wanted to be heard
and they were taken out by security.

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And it just goes to show that
people are not being heard.

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The government delegates that go there
are not talking about the right things.

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And maybe Gavin Newsom didn't know
about this protest when it was

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happening, but I find it interesting.

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Gavin Newsom, the Governor of California
is a big proponent of going to more

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renewables and divesting from fossil fuels
and, doing something about climate change.

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But at what point does this not
become just like life right now?

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You have someone who's trying to do
something about climate adaptation

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and climate change and reduce climate
change, and then you have this indigenous

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population that's like, we're losing our
homes, our food is changing, our home is

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like lost because of a lot of different
aspects, including deforestation, weather

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changing, rivers changing, and so forth.

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And here we are.

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We're not being heard.

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We don't have a voice.

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And I think that's a real problem.

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Also, small island states demanded
they wanted more secure protections.

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We didn't really see
much coming outta that.

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And of course, you know, coastal
communities like that depend on

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reefs, mangroves and fisheries.

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They don't get their voice
heard at these COP30s.

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That is a disgrace.

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That should not happen.

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The people who are affected the most
should be the people at the forefront

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00:14:56,260 --> 00:14:59,770
talking about what we need to do
and why it has to be so important.

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Developing countries could adapt
better than other countries that may

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not have the means or the infrastructure
to adapt to climate change.

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But developing countries that
can adapt a little bit more,

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we don't take it seriously.

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We don't take climate
change serious enough.

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I'm gonna say that right off the bat.

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We do not take climate
change serious enough.

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We need as developing countries to
understand, to stop debating whether

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00:15:19,932 --> 00:15:23,112
climate change is happening or not,
and to understand, take accountability

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that some of us are causing it more
than others, and we need to fix this.

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00:15:27,522 --> 00:15:31,842
We need to help other countries out as
a planet, not just helping ourselves.

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That's something that has to happen and
having these gaps in justice and equity

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at COP30 and any of the COPs is just an
absolute disgrace and needs to be changed.

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Now, there is opportunity here.

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To really bring oceans to the main front.

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The big thing is, is storytelling.

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We need to tell the stories of
the people, amplify the stories,

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00:15:50,945 --> 00:15:51,845
not just tell the stories.

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00:15:51,875 --> 00:15:54,515
Amplify the stories of the
people who are affected most by

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00:15:54,515 --> 00:15:56,555
climate, change from the ocean.

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00:15:56,642 --> 00:15:57,782
And that needs to happen.

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00:15:57,859 --> 00:15:59,569
The oceans continue to warm.

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00:15:59,599 --> 00:16:03,739
The fact that we don't have any
commitment on reducing fossil fuel usage.

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00:16:04,014 --> 00:16:05,334
It's absolutely awful.

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00:16:05,334 --> 00:16:07,494
It's going to affect the
ocean in a negative way.

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00:16:07,494 --> 00:16:09,324
We're gonna see more bleaching.

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00:16:09,414 --> 00:16:12,204
We're gonna see a higher
increase in ocean temperatures,

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00:16:12,294 --> 00:16:15,804
which means devastating storms
are gonna continue to rise.

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00:16:15,984 --> 00:16:18,834
We're gonna see sea level
is gonna continue to rise.

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00:16:19,144 --> 00:16:21,964
Ocean acidification is going to continue
to rise, which is not only gonna

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00:16:21,964 --> 00:16:25,954
affect corals, but it's also gonna
affect malice like oysters, mussels.

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00:16:25,984 --> 00:16:27,724
This is food that we eat, folks.

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00:16:27,867 --> 00:16:31,767
A lot of people depend on this food,
not just for luxury, but also just

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00:16:31,917 --> 00:16:33,837
they actually need it for sustenance.

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00:16:33,924 --> 00:16:37,734
Marine ecosystems that lack funding,
they need restoration like seagrass

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restoration and adaptation, but
there's not enough funding for ocean.

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00:16:41,190 --> 00:16:43,560
We need to ensure that there's
enough funding for oceans.

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00:16:43,647 --> 00:16:46,477
And then of course, the implementation
of all of this will depend on

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the bodies that often do not
communicate their work publicly.

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00:16:49,387 --> 00:16:51,397
So we need to amplify that communication.

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00:16:51,484 --> 00:16:53,374
And this is where science
communication comes in.

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00:16:53,374 --> 00:16:55,174
Like we can be the bridge.

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00:16:55,484 --> 00:16:57,374
Talk about science, talk about the ocean.

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00:16:57,374 --> 00:16:58,814
You have platforms.

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00:16:58,844 --> 00:16:59,864
It doesn't matter how big.

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00:16:59,957 --> 00:17:01,007
We all have platforms.

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00:17:01,007 --> 00:17:02,957
For a lot of us that are listening
to this, a lot of you that are

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00:17:02,957 --> 00:17:05,837
listening to this podcast want
to do science communication or

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00:17:05,837 --> 00:17:07,397
already doing science communication,

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00:17:07,397 --> 00:17:10,377
get part of an advocacy group, amplify
others who are telling these stories.

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00:17:10,927 --> 00:17:14,857
And make sure we understand that
divesting away from fossil fuels

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00:17:14,857 --> 00:17:18,457
is the best way to reduce climate
change impacts and climate change.

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00:17:18,547 --> 00:17:21,157
So I think, you know, this is
something that, when I look at

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00:17:21,157 --> 00:17:23,010
COP30, I rarely see progress.

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00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:24,350
I see a lot of uncertainty.

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00:17:24,350 --> 00:17:28,037
I see a lot of frustration, but we
know the science is actually clear.

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00:17:28,130 --> 00:17:31,070
The ocean is absorbing all this
carbon dioxide and all this heat

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00:17:31,070 --> 00:17:33,740
that our climate system just, it
cannot, it can't handle it anymore.

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00:17:34,610 --> 00:17:38,870
And if global leaders do not strengthen
the commitment soon, the ocean will

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00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:40,940
continue to carry out the heaviest burden.

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00:17:41,060 --> 00:17:44,360
And we are going to see that
firsthand as ocean people, people

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00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:46,700
who value the ocean for what it is.

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00:17:46,787 --> 00:17:51,407
So the biggest thing that we need
to do is support ocean-based climate

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00:17:51,407 --> 00:17:53,362
solutions in your own communities.

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00:17:53,747 --> 00:17:54,797
That is something that's good.

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00:17:54,917 --> 00:17:56,327
Seagrass restoration.

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00:17:56,582 --> 00:17:59,582
Mangrove restoration, salt
Marsh, coastal wetlands.

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00:17:59,882 --> 00:18:03,662
These are gonna be extremely important
to protect coral reefs, to protect

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00:18:03,662 --> 00:18:07,442
dugongs, to protect all these animals,
but also to protect the systems that allow

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00:18:07,442 --> 00:18:09,027
us to get oxygen every second breath.

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00:18:09,842 --> 00:18:11,132
The ocean, just in general.

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00:18:11,132 --> 00:18:12,122
It's gonna be huge.

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00:18:12,362 --> 00:18:16,112
So I think this is gonna be interesting
to see how this progresses forward.

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00:18:16,232 --> 00:18:19,682
Obviously there's a lot of work to do
and we have to do it from the ground up.

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00:18:19,712 --> 00:18:24,022
'cause obviously the top down is doing
absolutely nothing and I think it's

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00:18:24,022 --> 00:18:25,882
very, very difficult to deal with.

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00:18:25,982 --> 00:18:29,957
I encourage you to continue to follow
this episode, this podcast I continue

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00:18:30,002 --> 00:18:33,842
to follow others who are speaking on the
policy actions in your own countries.

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00:18:33,992 --> 00:18:35,132
Support those leaders.

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00:18:35,512 --> 00:18:39,862
Become those leaders and let's get
the ocean back into the climate talks.

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00:18:40,012 --> 00:18:43,462
Let's get climate talks to actually
discuss reducing climate change

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00:18:43,582 --> 00:18:47,122
and committing to climate change by
putting the right people in place.

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00:18:47,122 --> 00:18:50,602
And there are a lot of people that are
in governments right now that do not

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00:18:50,602 --> 00:18:54,712
take this seriously, that are out for
greed, out for their billionaire friends.

390
00:18:54,712 --> 00:18:55,702
And it's just disgusting.

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00:18:55,702 --> 00:18:59,032
It's not just the us, it's all around
the world and we need to change that.

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00:18:59,182 --> 00:19:00,352
But that's what I'm gonna say.

393
00:19:00,412 --> 00:19:03,292
All I'm gonna say on COP30, I'd
love to hear what you think.

394
00:19:03,502 --> 00:19:04,732
Let me know in the comments below.

395
00:19:04,732 --> 00:19:07,522
If you're watching this on YouTube, if
you're listening to this on your favorite

396
00:19:07,522 --> 00:19:12,592
podcast app, Apple, Amazon Music, Spotify,
whatever that might be, hit me up on

397
00:19:12,592 --> 00:19:14,572
Instagram at how to protect the Ocean.

398
00:19:14,572 --> 00:19:16,042
It's at How to Protect the Ocean.

399
00:19:16,042 --> 00:19:16,492
DM Me.

400
00:19:16,672 --> 00:19:20,987
I would love to hear your thoughts and of
course, you can go speak up for blue.com/.

401
00:19:21,060 --> 00:19:22,830
contact to contact me through my email.

402
00:19:22,830 --> 00:19:23,730
Just fill out the form.

403
00:19:23,910 --> 00:19:26,610
I wanna thank you so much for
joining me on today's episode of the

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00:19:26,610 --> 00:19:27,900
How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:30,660
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from
the True Nords Strong and Free.

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00:19:30,660 --> 00:19:31,500
Have a great day.

407
00:19:31,710 --> 00:19:33,810
We'll talk to you next time
and happy conservation.