Ocean Book You Need to Read: Amanda Leland’s Vision for a Sea Change

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On today's episode, we're gonna be
discussing this book, it's called

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Sea Change, unlikely Allies, and a
Success Story of Oceanic Proportions.

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It's all about catch fisheries.

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If you wanna know more of what Catch
fishery is and what it actually

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will do to help preserve fisheries,
help protect the ocean, you're

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gonna wanna watch this episode.

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So that's what we're gonna be talking
about in today's episode of the

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How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody.

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Welcome back to another exciting episode
of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this
is the podcast where you find out what's

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happening with the ocean, how you can
speak up for the ocean, and what you

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can do to live for a better ocean.

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By taking action today, we're gonna be
talking about this book, sea Change.

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It's great.

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I'm gonna show it one more time here.

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It was sent to me.

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I get sent a lot of books, you know,
and I get emails from a lot of people.

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I'm very privileged to have that
and to be able to get free books

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and to be able to read them.

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When I started to read this book,
this is not what I expected.

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I expected something on conservation,
so it'd be more like, you know, this is

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what we need to do to protect the ocean.

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This is the frameworks and
everything that we have to do.

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This is not this book.

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This book is a story.

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This book is a story about a fisher
named Buddy where we meet him at a

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very young age where he's fishing with
his father, and I don't wanna give

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any kind of spoilers, but he grows up.

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And he becomes a fisher.

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But he, there's a lot of stuff that goes
on between that, which I highly recommend

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that you read this book to find out.

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But you see his journey as not only
becoming a man and an adult, but

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becoming a fisher, and the evolution
of becoming a fisher to eventually

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becoming an advocate to protect the
ocean and protect fisheries, and

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becoming like a conservation hero.

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This is something that is important to
know, not only for me as a scientist and

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as a conservationist, but also somebody.

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If you're listening in this audience, and
you may not be involved in this field.

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I know I have a lot of people who
are, but I have a lot of people

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in this audience who aren't.

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We always hear bad things about Fishers.

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We always like, why are we hearing that?

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This is a book that gives you
the perspective of Fisher.

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Sometimes you may not like what the
person has to say, but other times you

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might just be like, yeah, you know what?

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This is actually pretty cool.

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This is something I want to know about
and I wanna know more fishers like this.

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And there are a lot of fishers
that are just like that.

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And so it's really important that we get
to meet them, we get to hear their story.

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And this is one of those stories.

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This is a true story and it's something
that I feel is very important and

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Amanda is on the podcast to discuss it.

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She was one of the co-authors, James
Workman was her other author, who's

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the journalist and who wrote most of
the book, but Amanda provided a lot of

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the information and worked it with him.

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She's the executive director of the
Environmental Defense Fund, a huge

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organization that does a lot of work.

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And it was a pleasure to be able to speak
to her and get her perspective on this.

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Not only did we talk about the book,
but for the most part we talked about

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how she became an executive director.

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'cause I was curious, but also talking
about what Environmental defense does

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and what type of programs they have.

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But very much focusing on
the Ocean Fisheries program

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and how they partner with.

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Unlikely heroes, you know,
unlikely people that you don't see

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being partnered with and having
those discussions early on with.

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And I think that's really important
and we're starting to see that.

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And then if you've been listening to
the podcast anytime recently, there's

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been a focus on building trust, building
relationships with local communities,

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with fishers, with stakeholders, and
bringing in conservation right at

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the beginning so that everybody's
perspective is being heard.

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That's really important when we have that
type of participation, when we talk about

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conservation in a local area, or even in
a larger region, or even a national, like

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in a country or even internationally.

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So it's very important to
have these conversations and

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to know their perspective.

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So without further ado, here is the
executive director of the Environmental

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Defense Fund, Amanda Leland, discussing
with us this book See Change.

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Unlikely heroes and a success
story of oceanic proportions.

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This is something that
everybody needs to read.

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In my opinion.

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It's on sale as of this recording,
and you can pick it up very quickly.

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I think you can even pre-order
it if it's not on sale, if you're

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catching this at a different time,
but something to really listen to.

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So here's Amanda, enjoy the
interview and I'll talk to you after.

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Hey Amanda, welcome to the How
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about the
book, sea Change and Catch Shares?

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I am more than ready.

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I'm excited to be here.

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Thank you for having me, Andrew.

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Oh, I am so excited.

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Now I get emails quite a bit to,
for people to come on the show and

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it was so great to see someone from
EDF, from Environmental Defense

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Fund to say, Hey, you know what?

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We have somebody for you.

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Uh, she just co-wrote a book.

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It's about sea change.

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We'd love to send it to
you so you could read it.

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And I'm like, I'm in.

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I do get a lot, you know, I do get
some books to be, you know, to that

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come to me and I, and I, I peruse
them and stuff, but I have to admit,

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Amanda, when I started reading
this, I didn't know what to expect.

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I started reading this and
I'm like, this is really fun.

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I'm into this, this is a bit like
a novel in a way, but it's true.

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Like this is like, this
is like a, a true story.

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And it was, it was, it was very cool.

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I haven't finished the book, just
full disclosure, I haven't finished

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the book yet, but I am excited
to talk not only about the book,

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but the contents of the book.

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I don't want to give away anything, but
I, I want, and I don't want spl 'cause

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I want people to read the book, but what
I want to do is dive into catch shares

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and why they're such an important tool
and why you want to write about them.

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You and James want to write about them.

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James, James Workman.

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And so, um, we're gonna get into all
that, but before we do, I want the

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audience to get to know who you are.

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Um, so, uh, Amanda, why don't you just
let us know who you are and what you do.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, I'm, well again,
it's exciting to be here.

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Um, so my name is Amanda Leland
and I'm executive director of

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Environmental Defense Fund, which
means that I run the organization.

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Um, and EDF is a longstanding,
um, international.

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Environmental organization.

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We have offices around the world,
um, and we really think about and

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work towards finding the ways that
work for people in the planet.

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So mm-hmm.

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We, we, we have a lot of
unlikely partnerships.

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One of the things we're gonna talk about
that comes through in the Sea Change

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book, it's finding common ground and
working towards solutions together,

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even with people who you think you
might have less, um, in common with.

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And, and really, because fundamentally
we actually generally share the

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same needs and the same goals.

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And we might not start there, but
we can find those paths and see

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changes about finding one of those
paths for ensuring that we have

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a healthy and productive ocean.

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Awesome.

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Now, being an executive director of
an organization like Environmental

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Defense Fund, that's a big deal.

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Like that is like when I got, when
somebody said like, Hey, you know, the

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executive director of Environmental
Defense Fund wants to come on the podcast?

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I was like, whoa.

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I told my wife, I was like,
this is, this is big news.

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Like this is, this is awesome.

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Like it's always great to talk to people
from your staff 'cause they're always,

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they're always great and they're always
so passionate and everything like that.

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But an executive director,
I'm like, this is a big deal.

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When you started out in this line
of work, like when you started your

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education path and, and things like that,
did you expect this is where you were

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gonna end up as an executive director?

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Is that, was that the plan you wanted
to be in charge of, of an organization?

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I've never really, this
is the bad truth about me.

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I've never really been a
person who's tried for a

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certain title or a certain job.

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I'm driven a hundred percent by getting
things done and making the world a better

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place, uh, to the extent that I can.

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Mm-hmm.

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I, I have been a lifelong fan.

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I actually became an EDF member
when I was 13 and the seventh grade.

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Wow.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So I have a long, I have a long story with
EDF that predates any jobs whatsoever.

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Yeah.

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Um, and I never really thought, you
know, in high school, college that this

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would be the kind of work I would do.

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I was right.

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Tracked into science.

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I was, I was a marine scientist.

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That's sort of the, the beginnings mm-hmm.

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Of a career as working in, in, um,
marine advocacy and conservation.

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Um, but yeah, it's been a long journey and
again, not really motivated by the title.

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I'm happy to have it.

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It's a real honor.

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Of course.

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Yeah.

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Um, I, I'm, what I love about
EDF, they're, you know, is we have

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this incredible platform to get to
solve the biggest problems facing

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people in the planet, and mm-hmm.

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We have an incredibly
smart and talented staff.

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We have really strong and, um,
generous supporters who've been with

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us on some really tough journeys.

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And they, they stay with us and we
have these incredible partnerships.

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And again, working with fishermen, you
know, when we started that work 15, 20

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years ago, it was nobody, like, it was,
it was not the way conservation was done.

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Mm-hmm.

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Uh, and there's stories like that in
EDFS work over and over again of how

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we find these unlikely partnerships.

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Becoming allies and changing the world.

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Yeah.

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I, you know, I'm going back to you being
13, being part of, you know, joining EDF.

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What does that look like as a 13-year-old
joining an organization like that?

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Like, what was, what was your role?

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Was it like a volunteer role?

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Was it just you got newsletters?

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What, what does that look like?

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Because, you know, there's a lot of
people, my, my kids are teenagers.

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They're 16 and turning 18, you know,
and I tell them like, you know, how

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do you feel like connected to the
planet, connected to, um, you know, the

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ocean or just connected to wildlife?

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And, and you know, I've always
thought like, there, there are

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programs out there that were,
you know, uh, kids can, can join.

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But as a 13-year-old,
what does that look like?

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And, and, and why EDF when you joined?

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So, um, I am, I'm really big into
evidence and progress and experience.

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Um, and in the seventh grade we
do, I did a science fair project.

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Mm-hmm.

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I became very, um, excited about
the potential to, for recycling.

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Now, this was a long time ago.

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I might be older than you think.

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This was a long time ago.

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This is when, like in the US the
nightly news was like the garbage,

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uh, ships that nobody could
figure out where they would go.

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And, and there was this plucky EDF
scientist, um, who was always on

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the news talking about the fact that
we needed to do more recycling to

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deal with all this trash and, um.

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And I just thought he was the best.

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Like he was so inspiring to me.

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It was a great idea at the time.

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Right?

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He was.

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So, I, I mean, that tells
you what kind of person I am.

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I got really excited about one of
our, our, our nerdy scientists who

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was standing on a big pile of trash.

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Um, and that's what got me,
that's what got me going.

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So I actually did my research
of all the organizations who

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were focused on recycling.

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'cause I got so into it.

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EDF was doing the most by far at the time.

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00:10:51,074 --> 00:10:54,734
And I sent my $30 in to become a member.

232
00:10:54,734 --> 00:10:54,795
Yeah.

233
00:10:55,155 --> 00:10:59,175
And I got, um, all the cool
swag or the, now it's the merch.

234
00:10:59,234 --> 00:10:59,775
Um, yes.

235
00:11:00,260 --> 00:11:06,224
And, and I just, I wore it around with
pride and I showed off to everybody

236
00:11:06,224 --> 00:11:10,454
that I was like a member of this
incredibly impactful organization.

237
00:11:11,010 --> 00:11:13,530
And, and that stuck with me for years.

238
00:11:13,530 --> 00:11:17,190
You know, it, I, um, it sort of
waxed and waned a little depending

239
00:11:17,190 --> 00:11:18,360
on what my interests were.

240
00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,580
But yeah, it was with me the whole time.

241
00:11:20,610 --> 00:11:26,550
And it turns out that that really
plucky scientist had an office

242
00:11:26,550 --> 00:11:32,460
two doors down from mine when
I started at EDF 21 years ago.

243
00:11:32,670 --> 00:11:34,515
And he retired a couple years ago.

244
00:11:35,370 --> 00:11:37,860
And I was able to be at
his retirement party.

245
00:11:37,980 --> 00:11:38,280
Yeah.

246
00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,000
Did did you tell him like he,
he's the reason why you Oh yes.

247
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:42,180
He knows.

248
00:11:42,270 --> 00:11:45,060
Yeah, he definitely knows.

249
00:11:45,150 --> 00:11:46,260
Um, that's awesome.

250
00:11:46,260 --> 00:11:51,210
Now, like, as a 13-year-old, you know,
um, there are a lot of 13 year olds who

251
00:11:51,210 --> 00:11:53,040
are not necessarily focused on this.

252
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,980
Like, were your friends involved as well?

253
00:11:55,980 --> 00:11:57,840
Like, were you able to rope in
your friends or they're just kind

254
00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,690
of looking at you like, oh, there
goes Amanda in her recycling?

255
00:12:00,780 --> 00:12:03,570
Uh, yeah, definitely no friends.

256
00:12:03,570 --> 00:12:05,700
I think, um, I don't know.

257
00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:07,530
I was maybe a little out of step with

258
00:12:09,570 --> 00:12:11,040
what was going on around me.

259
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:12,000
I, I don't know.

260
00:12:12,060 --> 00:12:18,630
Um, but it was, it was, um, it over time,
you know, I definitely attracted people

261
00:12:18,630 --> 00:12:23,940
into thinking about and, um, becoming
part of the environmental movement.

262
00:12:23,940 --> 00:12:27,540
So while I wasn't so good at that in
the seventh grade, right, it de it

263
00:12:27,540 --> 00:12:32,340
definitely became part of who I am
and, and how people think about me.

264
00:12:33,270 --> 00:12:36,390
And who I asso associate myself with.

265
00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:36,570
Mm-hmm.

266
00:12:36,810 --> 00:12:39,780
Not just other environmentalists,
but people who fundamentally care

267
00:12:39,780 --> 00:12:45,210
about, um, ensuring that their
kids have more opportunities and a

268
00:12:45,210 --> 00:12:47,220
cleaner, healthier planet to live on.

269
00:12:47,580 --> 00:12:47,610
Okay.

270
00:12:47,610 --> 00:12:49,140
Than, than we do today.

271
00:12:49,140 --> 00:12:53,400
That kind of like legacy and generational
aspect is really important to me.

272
00:12:53,820 --> 00:12:57,330
And it was the generational
aspect, um, that got me really

273
00:12:57,330 --> 00:12:58,410
excited about the oceans.

274
00:12:58,410 --> 00:13:01,020
It was my grandfather who
taught me how to fish and to

275
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:02,730
captain a boat when I was seven.

276
00:13:02,730 --> 00:13:02,790
Wow.

277
00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,960
Um, like my passion for the
oceans started really early.

278
00:13:07,350 --> 00:13:11,310
I was out there fishing
blue fish with him Yeah.

279
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,910
When nobody else was fishing
blue fish, um, right at the time.

280
00:13:14,910 --> 00:13:19,530
So anyway, I guess those early beginnings
are important and that has shaped my

281
00:13:19,530 --> 00:13:21,060
life and my career and I think it.

282
00:13:21,060 --> 00:13:23,400
I think it matters to other people too.

283
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:24,930
Gotcha, gotcha.

284
00:13:24,959 --> 00:13:28,469
Now, working at EDF, I assume
it's one of the, like the places

285
00:13:28,469 --> 00:13:30,449
you've worked the longest, um Yes.

286
00:13:30,449 --> 00:13:35,849
Outta your career, um, as you started
to work there and, and you, did you

287
00:13:35,849 --> 00:13:40,680
just start to sort of climb the, the,
the nonprofit ladder and, and, and what

288
00:13:40,709 --> 00:13:43,170
interested you in, in growing in that way?

289
00:13:43,170 --> 00:13:45,704
Because, you know, you, you were
a marine scientist and Yeah.

290
00:13:45,869 --> 00:13:48,599
You said that there's a lot of great
marine, like a lot of great scientists

291
00:13:48,599 --> 00:13:52,500
in general that work at EDF and, um, you
can do a lot of great things in different

292
00:13:52,500 --> 00:13:56,640
positions there, but as you get, you know,
a lot of scientists don't, like, as they

293
00:13:57,060 --> 00:14:00,810
grow into an organization or a government
department, you get more administrative,

294
00:14:00,810 --> 00:14:05,099
administrative roles and you get a
away from doing the actual science.

295
00:14:05,310 --> 00:14:09,780
Um, and each role is important to when you
do it, but some people don't like that.

296
00:14:10,079 --> 00:14:15,750
What, what attracted you to
continue to grow within, within the

297
00:14:15,750 --> 00:14:18,060
organization into a position like this?

298
00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:23,490
So that story for me starts actually
before I joined EDF 'cause I didn't come

299
00:14:23,490 --> 00:14:25,525
in as a marine scientist, so my ah, okay.

300
00:14:25,625 --> 00:14:32,010
My shift from science into conservation
happened before that I was actually in

301
00:14:32,010 --> 00:14:37,950
grad school, um, and I was working as a
scientist in the Gulf of Maine mm-hmm.

302
00:14:38,220 --> 00:14:40,260
Uh, with sea urchin fishermen.

303
00:14:40,350 --> 00:14:46,200
And I was confronted in a fishery that was
largely collapsed or collapsing mm-hmm.

304
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:47,370
In the coast of Maine.

305
00:14:47,370 --> 00:14:51,540
And the fishermen would say to
me, if I don't take the last

306
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,420
urchin, someone else will.

307
00:14:55,380 --> 00:14:56,655
And it's a common thing we hear.

308
00:14:56,655 --> 00:14:57,695
Right, right.

309
00:14:57,875 --> 00:15:04,320
And I, you know, I was in my early
twenties and I was like, just the.

310
00:15:05,235 --> 00:15:09,765
The ridiculousness and the pain
in that kind of a statement.

311
00:15:09,824 --> 00:15:09,915
Mm-hmm.

312
00:15:10,155 --> 00:15:14,775
Like, nobody should have to eat their seed
corn in order to feed their family today.

313
00:15:14,805 --> 00:15:15,194
Right.

314
00:15:15,675 --> 00:15:19,095
That is a, there's just, there's
no way that that's gonna work.

315
00:15:19,095 --> 00:15:23,835
And so in the, at the time and,
and that period fisheries were

316
00:15:23,835 --> 00:15:25,845
collapsing all around the country.

317
00:15:26,265 --> 00:15:31,335
And I was sort of in this mind frame
of, I don't wanna be the scientist that

318
00:15:31,335 --> 00:15:36,314
writes the epitaph for these productive
fisheries and the health of the oceans.

319
00:15:36,314 --> 00:15:38,355
I wanna be on the side of solutions.

320
00:15:38,745 --> 00:15:42,675
So that brought me to take a
fellowship in Washington, DC where

321
00:15:42,675 --> 00:15:46,305
I worked for a member of Congress
and I learned more about policy.

322
00:15:46,515 --> 00:15:46,605
Mm-hmm.

323
00:15:46,845 --> 00:15:53,025
And from there I came to EDF as sort of
a marine advocate, ocean advocate with an

324
00:15:53,025 --> 00:15:55,305
understanding of both science and policy.

325
00:15:55,694 --> 00:15:55,814
Gotcha.

326
00:15:55,814 --> 00:15:58,035
So that's how I came into EDF.

327
00:15:58,035 --> 00:16:01,125
And then over time, I've had
nine different jobs here.

328
00:16:01,215 --> 00:16:02,145
That's unreal.

329
00:16:02,625 --> 00:16:08,115
So, yeah, so I've, I like, I
guess the, the ocean analogy

330
00:16:08,115 --> 00:16:09,375
here is hook, line, and sinker.

331
00:16:09,375 --> 00:16:12,675
I don't know, like, I kind of
feel like I've done, I've done

332
00:16:12,675 --> 00:16:18,225
all the things, um, one can do at
EDF, um, and in different ways.

333
00:16:18,225 --> 00:16:20,685
And still every day my job is different.

334
00:16:21,045 --> 00:16:25,155
Even 21 years on as executive
director ev every day it's different.

335
00:16:26,445 --> 00:16:29,415
It, it, it provides a, a
cool challenge, you know?

336
00:16:29,415 --> 00:16:32,265
'cause you never know what to
expect, just like the ocean.

337
00:16:32,265 --> 00:16:35,175
You never know what to, what it's gonna
spit at you or what it's gonna, what's

338
00:16:35,175 --> 00:16:37,155
gonna reveal for you at that time.

339
00:16:37,455 --> 00:16:40,065
Um, that's a, that's a really interesting,
you, you mentioned at the beginning,

340
00:16:40,245 --> 00:16:43,065
uh, you mentioned at the beginning
of this, of this episode that, you

341
00:16:43,065 --> 00:16:47,205
know, you've, you've been motivated
by like trying to accomplish things.

342
00:16:47,325 --> 00:16:48,405
How has that.

343
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,090
Evolved over your career?

344
00:16:51,090 --> 00:16:55,140
Like you mentioned, you went from
science to advocacy and like policy.

345
00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:00,630
Now, you know, you're, you're more into
a, a leadership role, you know, driving

346
00:17:00,660 --> 00:17:03,180
a lot of great scientists and advocates.

347
00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:06,780
How has that evolved over,
over your, your career so far?

348
00:17:09,450 --> 00:17:14,730
I am, well, I guess I'm, you know, in
the, in the category of not trying, I've

349
00:17:14,730 --> 00:17:18,690
never really set out to have a certain
job title or to do a certain thing.

350
00:17:19,050 --> 00:17:22,829
I am, um, I care a lot
about getting things done.

351
00:17:22,860 --> 00:17:25,680
I care a lot about making
the most of what we have.

352
00:17:26,310 --> 00:17:30,090
Um, and, and I'm also a
person who learns by doing.

353
00:17:31,110 --> 00:17:37,170
And so I think that that has enabled
me to take on more and do different

354
00:17:37,590 --> 00:17:42,990
parts of this kind of a job in
different ways over time without, um.

355
00:17:43,740 --> 00:17:48,030
Without having the, always the formal
training, you know, like, um, I didn't go,

356
00:17:48,030 --> 00:17:50,159
I went to school to be a marine scientist.

357
00:17:50,159 --> 00:17:54,120
I did not go to school to
be a nonprofit executive.

358
00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:58,710
Um, and somehow I seem to be doing that.

359
00:17:58,860 --> 00:18:03,780
So I people, I just actually
talked to a young person yesterday

360
00:18:03,780 --> 00:18:08,250
who's in her final year of college
looking for advice, you know, career

361
00:18:08,250 --> 00:18:12,419
advice, and I said, try everything.

362
00:18:12,690 --> 00:18:16,379
Like you never know what's gonna
stick and feel right to you.

363
00:18:16,470 --> 00:18:19,290
So when you're presented with
an opportunity, even if it

364
00:18:19,290 --> 00:18:22,950
feels like it's not the logical
progression, go ahead and try it.

365
00:18:23,129 --> 00:18:26,100
'cause it may end up being
really helpful to you in the end.

366
00:18:26,310 --> 00:18:30,659
And I think that that's largely
how I've progressed and how

367
00:18:30,659 --> 00:18:31,710
I've gotten to where I am.

368
00:18:31,710 --> 00:18:33,210
And again, I never thought.

369
00:18:34,290 --> 00:18:39,930
As a 13-year-old, $30 a year member of
EDF that I'd become executive director.

370
00:18:40,409 --> 00:18:41,100
Never thought that.

371
00:18:41,460 --> 00:18:41,940
Yeah.

372
00:18:41,940 --> 00:18:45,060
I often wonder too, like going from
those types of positions to an executive

373
00:18:45,060 --> 00:18:49,500
director, like how did you gain the
skills and, and what skills do you think

374
00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:52,680
really prepared you for a role like this?

375
00:18:57,030 --> 00:19:04,919
Um, I think, uh, what you need
in a role like this is an ability

376
00:19:04,919 --> 00:19:10,169
to communicate, uh, in a way
that people can understand you.

377
00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:14,100
So I think communication is often
overlooked and potentially one of

378
00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:16,169
the most important keys to success.

379
00:19:17,730 --> 00:19:23,520
I think being able to distill complexity
down into simplicity is part of that.

380
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,909
Um, and I think.

381
00:19:27,630 --> 00:19:32,460
Reali recognizing that humans
are humans and we're all in

382
00:19:32,460 --> 00:19:34,500
the sha shared same place.

383
00:19:35,130 --> 00:19:41,520
And we are often motivated by similar
things and working to find common

384
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:46,410
cause, um, and not try to create
more distinctions and more polarity.

385
00:19:46,410 --> 00:19:52,920
I think actually finding ways to work
together is incredibly important, um, and

386
00:19:56,220 --> 00:20:04,710
being true to yourself and to the facts
and making, in my view, sort of like the,

387
00:20:04,950 --> 00:20:07,020
a lot of people ask about risk taking.

388
00:20:07,050 --> 00:20:10,200
You know, what is my risk
tolerance in this kind of a job?

389
00:20:10,620 --> 00:20:14,010
And I have a pretty
high tolerance for risk.

390
00:20:14,430 --> 00:20:19,620
If I also am focused on what the
information that's available is telling me

391
00:20:19,620 --> 00:20:25,290
about the situation or the need for where
EDF can be the most effective and where

392
00:20:25,290 --> 00:20:27,630
there's a need for our kind of engagement.

393
00:20:27,630 --> 00:20:31,980
So, so being able to think sort of in
the, at the, at the broad scale and

394
00:20:31,980 --> 00:20:36,570
then bringing it down to how can we
add value and what is our, what is

395
00:20:36,570 --> 00:20:38,280
our special offering to the world?

396
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,730
Because there's a lot of really
great impressive conservation and

397
00:20:41,730 --> 00:20:43,110
environmental groups out there.

398
00:20:43,325 --> 00:20:43,615
Yeah.

399
00:20:43,735 --> 00:20:44,815
EDF, yeah.

400
00:20:44,975 --> 00:20:46,680
EDF is one of many.

401
00:20:46,740 --> 00:20:47,280
Right.

402
00:20:47,730 --> 00:20:52,920
And so recognizing what we're good at
and where we can make a difference is

403
00:20:53,070 --> 00:20:59,940
important and, um, and really our legacy
and our offering to the, to the world.

404
00:21:00,584 --> 00:21:01,185
Wonderful.

405
00:21:01,485 --> 00:21:05,504
Speaking of EDF, now we've, you know,
we've, I've probably gone in a little too

406
00:21:05,504 --> 00:21:10,034
much into your, your, uh, career, but I
was curious though, and it's my show, so

407
00:21:10,034 --> 00:21:11,475
I like to talk about this kind of stuff.

408
00:21:11,530 --> 00:21:12,850
You get to call the shots.

409
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:14,250
Yeah, I get to call the shots.

410
00:21:14,564 --> 00:21:18,344
Um, but I, I, I think what, what's
interesting is EDF is, is such a great

411
00:21:18,344 --> 00:21:21,885
organization, but for those who are
not familiar with the type of work that

412
00:21:21,885 --> 00:21:25,935
you do, can you kind of like, summarize
and even, you know, maybe ex like, uh,

413
00:21:26,115 --> 00:21:29,415
name off a couple of examples of some
of the programs that you have working

414
00:21:29,415 --> 00:21:30,975
and some of the work that you've done?

415
00:21:32,415 --> 00:21:37,004
Yeah, so EDF is an organization that
sort of takes the big swings at the

416
00:21:37,004 --> 00:21:38,774
toughest environmental problems.

417
00:21:39,225 --> 00:21:45,195
We bring a pretty, um, broad
toolkit to solving those problems.

418
00:21:45,615 --> 00:21:52,004
So we have, um, legal capacity, we have
scientific capacity, economic capacity.

419
00:21:52,620 --> 00:21:56,040
We work really closely with
business and communities.

420
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,680
So kind of like up and
down the, the whole chain.

421
00:21:58,890 --> 00:22:03,390
All the way to the top, the top, you
know, businesses in the world to,

422
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,980
um, very discreet communities where
there's solutions to be advanced

423
00:22:07,980 --> 00:22:12,180
and you, and, and demonstrated
that serve as a beacon for others.

424
00:22:12,690 --> 00:22:15,750
We do focus on models that are replicable.

425
00:22:16,020 --> 00:22:20,190
Um, we like to engage where we
think we can drive impact at scale.

426
00:22:20,190 --> 00:22:23,220
So that means like demonstrating
a solution can work.

427
00:22:23,595 --> 00:22:25,755
And then trying to bring
it to the whole sector.

428
00:22:25,845 --> 00:22:26,895
And that's important.

429
00:22:27,225 --> 00:22:30,765
So some of those, and that goes
back to that sort of that premise

430
00:22:30,765 --> 00:22:33,315
that I said at the front of
like, finding the ways that work.

431
00:22:33,315 --> 00:22:36,645
We are not, we are not
dogmatic in the solution.

432
00:22:36,645 --> 00:22:39,645
We are looking for what's gonna
work and make the biggest difference

433
00:22:39,675 --> 00:22:43,095
in a way, and a way that's gonna
work for people in their wallets.

434
00:22:43,095 --> 00:22:48,015
Like the, the fundamental affordability
proposition of environmental solutions

435
00:22:48,495 --> 00:22:50,925
is in, is important in this context.

436
00:22:51,375 --> 00:22:56,445
Um, so some of the big areas where
we focus, where you might see us, you

437
00:22:56,445 --> 00:23:01,125
know, a little bit more prominently in
the public space, um, in particular,

438
00:23:01,125 --> 00:23:04,065
is around reducing methane emissions.

439
00:23:04,425 --> 00:23:04,515
Mm-hmm.

440
00:23:04,755 --> 00:23:07,275
So methane, a lot of
people might not know.

441
00:23:07,545 --> 00:23:14,385
Methane is a, uh, is a really, um, it's a,
it's a greenhouse gas, so it's a climate

442
00:23:14,385 --> 00:23:19,875
pollutant that is driving much of the
warming we're experiencing right now.

443
00:23:20,610 --> 00:23:27,390
It has a relatively short life in the
atmosphere, but it's very, very powerful.

444
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:27,690
Mm-hmm.

445
00:23:27,930 --> 00:23:31,500
And so reducing those emissions
is really the best way to pull

446
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:35,520
the emergency brake on the climate
change that we're experiencing today.

447
00:23:36,150 --> 00:23:40,650
And a much of those emissions
come from the oil and gas sector.

448
00:23:40,770 --> 00:23:44,280
And so we work to reduce
point source emissions.

449
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,240
So like leaking infrastructure
could be a pipeline, it could be,

450
00:23:48,690 --> 00:23:53,970
um, a gas line, it could be an, uh,
an oil and gas development field.

451
00:23:54,540 --> 00:24:00,540
Um, the reducing those emissions
right now is what can help us right

452
00:24:00,540 --> 00:24:02,670
now in addressing climate change.

453
00:24:02,670 --> 00:24:07,290
So we have for many years, been
working to solve that problem,

454
00:24:07,470 --> 00:24:10,080
um, with making some progress.

455
00:24:10,350 --> 00:24:10,840
Um, yeah.

456
00:24:11,459 --> 00:24:13,379
For sure, for some, uh, some progress.

457
00:24:13,919 --> 00:24:20,520
Another area where we're very focused,
um, is protecting, um, tropical forests.

458
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,260
So the second area we, the world can
make immediate gains on climate change

459
00:24:25,260 --> 00:24:32,100
right now is, um, ensuring the protection
of tropical forests in reducing forest

460
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:38,730
burning, either through trying to
clear land to do something else or for

461
00:24:38,730 --> 00:24:44,669
gold mining, which is an increasingly
big part of the equation or wildfire.

462
00:24:44,909 --> 00:24:50,355
So if you're, I, we are in, we are
up in Canada and we are in trouble.

463
00:24:50,375 --> 00:24:50,594
Yes.

464
00:24:50,665 --> 00:24:52,800
Yeah, you are like Canada.

465
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,340
The, the, the fire seasons in
Canada are just off the charts.

466
00:24:56,340 --> 00:24:59,429
I was just the charts in Maine
for the last two weeks and.

467
00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:01,710
There was no clear air there.

468
00:25:01,710 --> 00:25:01,770
Yeah.

469
00:25:01,950 --> 00:25:07,710
Um, and that is unheard of for Maine,
which typically has, is outside of

470
00:25:07,710 --> 00:25:10,050
those, you know, that windy pattern.

471
00:25:10,140 --> 00:25:10,200
Yeah.

472
00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:12,715
Um, and people over all over.

473
00:25:12,715 --> 00:25:15,270
Well, just, just to add to
like the, the severity of it.

474
00:25:15,270 --> 00:25:19,620
I live, uh, just outside of Toronto,
where typically we get the smoke,

475
00:25:19,620 --> 00:25:21,630
but we don't get the, the, the fire.

476
00:25:22,020 --> 00:25:25,920
Um, but we're under fire bans,
you know, even in our backyards.

477
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:26,220
Yeah.

478
00:25:26,220 --> 00:25:28,410
They've just announced it
this week because it's so, we

479
00:25:28,410 --> 00:25:29,640
haven't, we've barely had rain.

480
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,950
I think the first rainfall
we had was last night.

481
00:25:32,310 --> 00:25:33,480
I don't even know how long it was.

482
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,160
I was asleep, but it wasn't long enough.

483
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:35,730
I'll tell you.

484
00:25:35,730 --> 00:25:37,470
You know, like we just
haven't had any rain.

485
00:25:37,470 --> 00:25:39,810
So it's a very, it's a
very scary situation.

486
00:25:39,810 --> 00:25:42,390
So definitely understand where
that, that problem is coming from

487
00:25:42,390 --> 00:25:49,035
and how hard it is to tackle it
is, it is, um, emerging as mm-hmm.

488
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:53,550
Like the biggest, um, one of the
biggest challenges to solve at

489
00:25:53,550 --> 00:25:56,940
this point because it, it affects.

490
00:25:57,450 --> 00:25:58,140
All of us.

491
00:25:58,200 --> 00:25:59,430
It affects nature.

492
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:08,100
Um, it upends lives in a minute, and
it is also driving vast emissions that

493
00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:11,040
nobody really has been thinking about yet.

494
00:26:11,070 --> 00:26:11,370
Right.

495
00:26:11,370 --> 00:26:16,710
Like the potential for wildfire to
swamp some of the gains we're making

496
00:26:16,710 --> 00:26:19,950
on addressing climate change is high.

497
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,600
So anyway, so forest protection
and, and forest management mm-hmm.

498
00:26:24,990 --> 00:26:29,310
Are critically important and an
area where EDF is also focused.

499
00:26:29,310 --> 00:26:33,390
And then of course there's our
work on fisheries and oceans,

500
00:26:33,390 --> 00:26:35,190
which I led for many years.

501
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:41,460
And now, um, work with others who
are handle, who are ably leading

502
00:26:41,460 --> 00:26:43,560
that work at EDF with our partners.

503
00:26:44,129 --> 00:26:44,729
That's amazing.

504
00:26:44,790 --> 00:26:49,500
I mean, it's, it's, it, those are
big programs, big issues to tackle.

505
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,610
Um, you know, and, and you need some
very intelligent, some very motivated and

506
00:26:53,610 --> 00:26:55,439
passionate people to be able to do that.

507
00:26:55,739 --> 00:26:57,479
And definitely there's
no shortage of that.

508
00:26:57,540 --> 00:27:01,530
Uh, at, at EDF, um, let's focus
in, obviously there's a lot we

509
00:27:01,530 --> 00:27:03,959
can focus in on, but let's focus
in obviously on the, on the

510
00:27:03,959 --> 00:27:06,540
fisheries and oceans side of, of it.

511
00:27:06,870 --> 00:27:10,169
Um, you know, fisheries is a
huge problem around the world.

512
00:27:10,199 --> 00:27:11,550
Overfishing is a huge problem.

513
00:27:11,550 --> 00:27:14,760
There's a lot of, of different
areas even within that.

514
00:27:15,180 --> 00:27:17,370
That we can, that we can go into.

515
00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:21,629
Um, but you know, a lot, a lot of the
times we really focus in on the amount

516
00:27:21,629 --> 00:27:25,110
that's being taken outta the ocean,
which is obviously is, is overfishing.

517
00:27:25,470 --> 00:27:27,450
Uh, but we look at it from
a conservation perspective.

518
00:27:27,450 --> 00:27:28,860
How do we protect the stock?

519
00:27:28,860 --> 00:27:30,330
How do we protect the species?

520
00:27:30,510 --> 00:27:33,150
How do we make sure that it's gonna
be around so that people can fish

521
00:27:33,180 --> 00:27:34,320
for years and years and years?

522
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,010
But really when we talk about fisheries
and, and I talk to a lot of people

523
00:27:38,010 --> 00:27:42,990
who are not necessarily, um, familiar
with, you know, the ocean issues and,

524
00:27:42,990 --> 00:27:44,670
and, and fisheries in particular.

525
00:27:44,850 --> 00:27:47,129
They just want to conserve,
they want to protect.

526
00:27:47,430 --> 00:27:53,100
And so when, in, in this type
of scenario, often vilified are

527
00:27:53,100 --> 00:27:54,750
the fishing communities, right?

528
00:27:54,750 --> 00:27:57,450
And, and the, and the fishermen and
fisher women who are out there, and

529
00:27:57,450 --> 00:27:59,250
the fishing people who are out there.

530
00:27:59,730 --> 00:28:04,920
You know, day in and day out in dangerous
areas, uh, in dangerous conditions,

531
00:28:05,220 --> 00:28:07,560
um, you know, trying to catch stuff.

532
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,790
And many of them are, are trying to
just catch, to feed their families to

533
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,560
make sure their communities are fine.

534
00:28:13,650 --> 00:28:18,660
And when a, a stock collapse, you know,
and I use on my podcast a lot with the

535
00:28:18,660 --> 00:28:22,050
cod fishery collapse here in Canada
and in the northeast, in the northwest

536
00:28:22,050 --> 00:28:25,890
Atlantic, uh, back in the 1990s, which
still hasn't technically recovered.

537
00:28:26,490 --> 00:28:30,630
It was devastating for those communities
that were dependent on those cod stocks.

538
00:28:30,930 --> 00:28:36,630
Um, trying to prevent the overfishing,
trying to ensure that fisheries are

539
00:28:36,630 --> 00:28:41,880
conserved, but also trying to protect
the, um, the, the, the wellbeing

540
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,450
and, and the sustainability of
fishing communities to be able to

541
00:28:45,450 --> 00:28:48,960
fish forever, um, is a complex issue.

542
00:28:49,020 --> 00:28:51,450
And, and you know, you mentioned
earlier that you know, you,

543
00:28:51,510 --> 00:28:53,520
you often partner with.

544
00:28:54,105 --> 00:28:57,105
Fishers and fishing communities
and so forth, like the quote

545
00:28:57,105 --> 00:29:01,275
unquote unlikely allies, you
know, in, in this type of game.

546
00:29:01,635 --> 00:29:06,495
Um, let's just talk about like, why do
you, why do you think they're vilified

547
00:29:06,495 --> 00:29:12,015
and why does Environmental Defense Fund,
you know, use this approach to get,

548
00:29:12,015 --> 00:29:13,575
be, to get the results that they do?

549
00:29:18,435 --> 00:29:21,885
Well, I mean, I think it's hard
to say why they're vilified.

550
00:29:21,885 --> 00:29:29,775
I think, I think fundamentally
that happens when regulations are

551
00:29:30,045 --> 00:29:38,715
established that, um, that basically
put fishermen into a box and they

552
00:29:38,715 --> 00:29:41,565
have very few choices for themselves.

553
00:29:41,625 --> 00:29:44,955
And, and by that I mean
a regulation that says.

554
00:29:45,735 --> 00:29:50,955
Um, the fishery can only catch so much
this year, which means that, that every

555
00:29:50,955 --> 00:29:55,725
fisherman is racing and to go out to
catch as much as they can, as fast as

556
00:29:55,725 --> 00:29:59,804
they can, because when that limit is
reached, they shut the fishery down.

557
00:29:59,804 --> 00:30:03,735
And that's how fisheries in the US
and Canada were managed for decades,

558
00:30:04,544 --> 00:30:06,615
um, and other parts of the world too.

559
00:30:06,855 --> 00:30:07,155
Right.

560
00:30:07,155 --> 00:30:12,975
It's this like, it's, it creates this
race and then the fishermen are in order

561
00:30:12,975 --> 00:30:18,705
to be able to do their job and bring home
money for their family and feed their

562
00:30:18,705 --> 00:30:24,705
families, they're basically pushed to
this ultra competitive mindset mm-hmm.

563
00:30:24,975 --> 00:30:28,605
Where it's like, I just have to get
as much as I can, as fast as I can.

564
00:30:29,175 --> 00:30:35,115
And, and then you have organizations in
my sphere, the environmental organizations

565
00:30:35,115 --> 00:30:39,375
saying like, but the, but it's sticking to
the science is the most important thing.

566
00:30:39,855 --> 00:30:40,725
I don't think.

567
00:30:40,965 --> 00:30:44,415
And so I think it just creates this
false dynamic that you have to be

568
00:30:44,415 --> 00:30:48,495
fighting between these two things when
fundamentally the fishermen and the

569
00:30:48,495 --> 00:30:52,965
fishing communities don't wanna be in
the situation that I talked about with

570
00:30:52,965 --> 00:30:56,835
those urchin fishermen of if I don't
take the last one somebody else will.

571
00:30:56,985 --> 00:30:59,445
Like, nobody actually wants to be there.

572
00:30:59,655 --> 00:31:00,105
Right.

573
00:31:00,315 --> 00:31:04,485
And there are other ways to do this so
you don't, so that they're not there.

574
00:31:04,545 --> 00:31:09,255
And so our, my focus and our focus
has been on trying to find those

575
00:31:09,255 --> 00:31:12,675
other ways rather than trying to
put the blame on the fishermen.

576
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:12,970
Mm-hmm.

577
00:31:13,185 --> 00:31:19,305
And I think the other thing about this
is, um, you know, around the world

578
00:31:19,305 --> 00:31:24,945
there are, there are 3 billion people,
and I, we, I think we forget this.

579
00:31:24,945 --> 00:31:25,005
Yeah.

580
00:31:25,335 --> 00:31:28,935
In the, in the, in North America,
we forget this point a lot.

581
00:31:29,415 --> 00:31:29,475
Yeah.

582
00:31:29,475 --> 00:31:33,465
There are 3 billion people who rely
on seafood as their primary source

583
00:31:33,465 --> 00:31:37,725
of protein, and they're typically the
most vulnerable people on the planet.

584
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,649
They don't have a lot of other options.

585
00:31:41,070 --> 00:31:44,399
There's not like an easy pasture
for them to put a cow out

586
00:31:44,399 --> 00:31:46,350
into to have an alternative.

587
00:31:46,889 --> 00:31:50,820
Um, and, and this is where
they get their nutrition.

588
00:31:51,449 --> 00:31:56,909
And so the idea that people are just
gonna not fish also undermines the,

589
00:31:56,970 --> 00:32:01,710
in my view, the reality of like,
people need to eat then kids need

590
00:32:01,710 --> 00:32:03,750
nutrition for their brains to grow.

591
00:32:04,260 --> 00:32:08,820
And, and that's gonna happen
whether you tell them it's

592
00:32:08,820 --> 00:32:10,649
protected or it's not protected.

593
00:32:11,159 --> 00:32:16,949
And so the path forward for I think
is about management that rewards

594
00:32:16,985 --> 00:32:20,790
conservation for fishermen where
they financially and community

595
00:32:20,790 --> 00:32:24,090
wise benefit by, uh, conservation.

596
00:32:24,149 --> 00:32:28,230
And then you get a better marriage
between areas that are fished and

597
00:32:28,230 --> 00:32:32,100
areas that aren't fished because the
fishermen are, fishermen are more likely

598
00:32:32,100 --> 00:32:35,504
to defend those areas that aren't fish.

599
00:32:36,210 --> 00:32:40,230
If they know that they're gonna be able to
catch a certain amount or whatever mm-hmm.

600
00:32:40,470 --> 00:32:43,379
Have that direct access and
that feedback loop over time.

601
00:32:43,590 --> 00:32:45,960
That may have been a long-winded
answer to your question.

602
00:32:46,260 --> 00:32:50,010
It was a complex question, so I
I it needed a long-winded answer.

603
00:32:50,010 --> 00:32:50,550
I loved it.

604
00:32:50,610 --> 00:32:52,440
Uh, I, I completely agree with you.

605
00:32:52,770 --> 00:32:57,000
Uh, and it's, it's something that,
uh, I hear, you know, all the time,

606
00:32:57,030 --> 00:33:00,600
you know, I've, I've been on Buzz and
marine scientists myself, I've been on

607
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,320
boats with, you know, local fishermen
who are just, you know, they know

608
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,450
the lay of the water and the land.

609
00:33:06,450 --> 00:33:10,110
They, they've been there for, you
know, they have generational knowledge

610
00:33:10,110 --> 00:33:14,670
on how this fishery has behaved
and, and the trends of the, more

611
00:33:14,670 --> 00:33:16,290
than scientists a lot of the times.

612
00:33:16,530 --> 00:33:20,040
And so it's imperative that we continue
to work together, not only as scientists,

613
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,600
but as advocates, as conservationists,
and as a team, you know, to be able to,

614
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,340
like, how do we get through this together?

615
00:33:26,340 --> 00:33:28,320
And I, I completely
agree that I feel like.

616
00:33:28,774 --> 00:33:30,455
People in North America often forget.

617
00:33:30,455 --> 00:33:33,395
You hear a lot of people like, well, we
just have to stop eating, eating seafood.

618
00:33:33,395 --> 00:33:37,655
And it's just that, just can't, that
won't, like in reality, that won't

619
00:33:37,655 --> 00:33:41,315
happen in, in a lot of places because
they, like you mentioned, there's 3

620
00:33:41,315 --> 00:33:44,824
billion people that depend on seafood
as their main protein source, and

621
00:33:44,824 --> 00:33:48,304
there it's a nutritious source and,
um, and it goes to a lot for child

622
00:33:48,304 --> 00:33:49,834
development and, and everything like that.

623
00:33:49,834 --> 00:33:54,094
And, um, that's an important aspect
to, to how we, how we move forward.

624
00:33:54,125 --> 00:33:59,284
And so working with them and not vilifying
them, I think is a, is a much better way.

625
00:33:59,435 --> 00:34:02,794
It's not always easy because some of
these issues are complex and, and they

626
00:34:02,794 --> 00:34:06,875
do want to be able to feed themselves
as well as feed their community and,

627
00:34:06,875 --> 00:34:13,745
and, and be able to, um, be able to,
to, uh, uh, uh, just live right and be

628
00:34:13,745 --> 00:34:16,264
able to be happy as, as a, as a family.

629
00:34:16,594 --> 00:34:17,165
Um, now.

630
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,740
There are parts of, as we get more
into this, this catch share and the

631
00:34:22,740 --> 00:34:29,040
book, um, you know, there are parts to
phishing that are, are very different.

632
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,790
I, I think a lot of times it all,
everything gets lumped up into phishing.

633
00:34:33,090 --> 00:34:39,420
And so, uh, you know, in a lot of, uh,
documentaries such as like Ocean by

634
00:34:39,420 --> 00:34:43,110
David Attenborough that just came out,
they talk a lot about the industrial

635
00:34:43,110 --> 00:34:47,790
fishing, you know, where it's like
fishing for the maximum processing at

636
00:34:47,790 --> 00:34:50,580
sea, you know, for, for a length of time.

637
00:34:50,790 --> 00:34:55,260
Uh, just trying to get as much as
possible, but often forgotten are the

638
00:34:55,260 --> 00:35:00,120
artisanal and local fishers, you know,
the indigenous fishers, the, the local

639
00:35:00,330 --> 00:35:04,980
Canadian and American and European
fishers who are just trying to catch a

640
00:35:04,980 --> 00:35:08,580
certain amount of fish so that they can
sell it and feed their families, maybe

641
00:35:08,580 --> 00:35:10,680
keep some for themselves and move on.

642
00:35:11,580 --> 00:35:19,755
There's that divide how, like for from a.
Perspective for EDF, how do you approach

643
00:35:19,905 --> 00:35:25,605
those two types of phishing and, and I'm,
am I missing something in between, uh, of

644
00:35:25,605 --> 00:35:28,245
those two sort of categories of phishing?

645
00:35:28,605 --> 00:35:32,985
Um, like is there, is there certain thing,
like is is EDF focused on the, the local

646
00:35:32,985 --> 00:35:38,955
fisher or are they focused also on some
of the larger, more industrial type of

647
00:35:38,955 --> 00:35:40,965
fishing, or is a little bit of both?

648
00:35:42,945 --> 00:35:44,265
I'd say it's an all of the above.

649
00:35:44,385 --> 00:35:53,925
Um, yeah, I think for sure the, um, what
the character, there are some, I think, I

650
00:35:53,925 --> 00:36:00,255
think there's some misunderstandings about
some aspects of industrialized fishing.

651
00:36:01,425 --> 00:36:07,365
So if you, if you look into the Alaska
slash British Columbia Fisheries, um.

652
00:36:08,220 --> 00:36:12,419
In the US and Canada, you'll see
pretty industrialized, actually

653
00:36:12,419 --> 00:36:14,189
quite industrialized fisheries.

654
00:36:14,279 --> 00:36:14,520
Yeah.

655
00:36:14,819 --> 00:36:19,770
Um, some of them have very deep
connections into native communities.

656
00:36:19,859 --> 00:36:19,950
Mm-hmm.

657
00:36:20,580 --> 00:36:23,285
Um, so this, I like it.

658
00:36:23,290 --> 00:36:27,600
It is very much tied to, to local
community and local culture.

659
00:36:28,259 --> 00:36:33,000
Um, and they fish cleaner and Hmm.

660
00:36:33,060 --> 00:36:37,799
With maximum, uh, fish recovery.

661
00:36:37,979 --> 00:36:40,620
So they use every part of the fish.

662
00:36:41,069 --> 00:36:41,189
Gotcha.

663
00:36:41,220 --> 00:36:43,620
And they don't throw anything over.

664
00:36:43,649 --> 00:36:45,720
So they're basically utilizing everything.

665
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:49,229
And so if you look at the, the
Pollock fishery, which is the, the

666
00:36:49,229 --> 00:36:51,059
biggest fishery in the United States.

667
00:36:51,180 --> 00:36:51,359
Yep.

668
00:36:51,569 --> 00:36:57,270
Um, it's, it's one of the best
managed fisheries in the world.

669
00:36:58,649 --> 00:36:58,709
Wow.

670
00:36:58,740 --> 00:37:02,640
And that isn't what people think about
when they think of industrialized fishing.

671
00:37:03,660 --> 00:37:05,939
And it is what provides.

672
00:37:06,915 --> 00:37:11,055
A lot of the fast food
restaurants with fresh fish.

673
00:37:11,384 --> 00:37:11,475
Mm-hmm.

674
00:37:11,745 --> 00:37:15,200
And I will happily go to McDonald's
and get a filet of fish sandwich.

675
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:15,680
Yeah.

676
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:16,480
Because it's, it's well managed.

677
00:37:16,799 --> 00:37:19,634
'cause I know, I know where
that, those fish are coming from.

678
00:37:19,634 --> 00:37:22,964
And I know that that's a,
a well-managed fishery.

679
00:37:22,964 --> 00:37:26,444
So that doesn't mean every
industrialized fishery in the world

680
00:37:26,444 --> 00:37:30,404
or every boat in the world, you
know, is operating at the same level.

681
00:37:30,404 --> 00:37:32,294
And in fact, probably that's not the case.

682
00:37:32,294 --> 00:37:34,064
'cause it sets a very high standard.

683
00:37:34,785 --> 00:37:39,944
Um, but it, it isn't quite the distinction
of industrialized versus artisanal.

684
00:37:40,334 --> 00:37:43,845
And then this, then on the other
side, you've got, or, or in the

685
00:37:43,845 --> 00:37:48,464
middle is probably the boats in
the Gulf of Mexico, which are

686
00:37:48,464 --> 00:37:51,404
commercial fishermen working on boats.

687
00:37:51,404 --> 00:37:54,194
But they go out overnight,
a week at a time.

688
00:37:54,674 --> 00:38:00,705
Um, they're not big, you know,
uh, big, big and boats like you

689
00:38:00,705 --> 00:38:05,294
would see in Pollock where they're,
um, they're processing on board.

690
00:38:05,730 --> 00:38:09,450
They're commercial fishermen,
um, doing their job.

691
00:38:09,630 --> 00:38:15,750
And then there, then there's, if you
could go even smaller to in, uh, Belize,

692
00:38:15,750 --> 00:38:21,359
coastal Belize where they're out in a,
you know, a, a small little, even some

693
00:38:21,359 --> 00:38:25,950
would say skiff, some of them have only
in the last couple decades moved from

694
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,350
a sale to a little outboard engine.

695
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:33,089
Um, often these fishermen
have more in common with each

696
00:38:33,089 --> 00:38:34,529
other than you would expect.

697
00:38:34,740 --> 00:38:39,900
'cause they are, they view them, I, I
don't wanna characterize them for them,

698
00:38:39,900 --> 00:38:44,580
but what I've taken away from getting
to know fishermen in different types or

699
00:38:44,850 --> 00:38:50,940
segments of the sector is that, um, they
care a lot about ensuring the long-term

700
00:38:50,970 --> 00:38:54,660
longevity of their, um, industry.

701
00:38:55,109 --> 00:38:57,930
And they, and, and they.

702
00:38:59,205 --> 00:39:03,464
They have this, um, really important,
you said sort of generational

703
00:39:03,464 --> 00:39:04,875
knowledge, which I think is right.

704
00:39:04,875 --> 00:39:10,214
Like their, their ability to see
into an ocean that is otherwise

705
00:39:10,245 --> 00:39:13,995
invisible to everybody else is amazing.

706
00:39:14,205 --> 00:39:14,565
Uh, yeah.

707
00:39:14,565 --> 00:39:19,095
They see things and they feel things and
they can interpret things in ways that

708
00:39:19,395 --> 00:39:21,884
even a scientists struggle with sometimes.

709
00:39:21,884 --> 00:39:25,755
So, um, it is true that there
are different types of fisheries

710
00:39:25,755 --> 00:39:29,265
and they certainly have different
needs and, and qualities, but I

711
00:39:29,265 --> 00:39:35,384
think there's more in common than
a lot of people often talk about.

712
00:39:36,195 --> 00:39:37,065
Well, that's good to know.

713
00:39:37,125 --> 00:39:39,045
You get something, you know,
you learn something every day.

714
00:39:39,075 --> 00:39:42,015
'cause I don't get to, to interact
with a lot of these different

715
00:39:42,015 --> 00:39:44,445
styles of, of fishermen and,
and the way they use things.

716
00:39:44,445 --> 00:39:48,795
So obviously as technology increases,
you know, it's supposed to be

717
00:39:48,795 --> 00:39:52,755
more efficient and sometimes even
better, uh, for, for the fishery.

718
00:39:52,755 --> 00:39:55,365
So it's good, it's good to know that
and it's, it's good to have that

719
00:39:55,365 --> 00:39:58,335
differentiation or even understand
some of the similarities and

720
00:39:58,335 --> 00:40:00,225
differences, uh, throughout that.

721
00:40:00,495 --> 00:40:05,655
Now working with, with Fishers, uh, and
understanding a lot of the different ways

722
00:40:05,655 --> 00:40:10,095
that, you know, once they catch fish,
what happens to that fish afterwards?

723
00:40:10,095 --> 00:40:13,035
You know, oftentimes I remember
reading, I forget where I read this,

724
00:40:13,035 --> 00:40:16,665
but I remember reading where, you know,
fishermen in North Carolina would, would.

725
00:40:17,100 --> 00:40:18,959
Catch their seafood, whether
it be shrimp or whether it

726
00:40:18,959 --> 00:40:20,700
be fish of, of certain types.

727
00:40:21,060 --> 00:40:24,509
And they would, you know, once they
unloaded off the dock, it would go into

728
00:40:24,509 --> 00:40:29,430
a truck and it would go off to somewhere
in Northeastern, uh, US and it would go

729
00:40:29,430 --> 00:40:33,660
maybe to New York, fishmonger or Sea, uh,
uh, a restaurant or something like that.

730
00:40:33,870 --> 00:40:34,470
But they wouldn't know.

731
00:40:34,620 --> 00:40:36,479
They, if you asked the fishers
where it would go, they didn't

732
00:40:36,479 --> 00:40:38,009
necessarily know where it went.

733
00:40:38,459 --> 00:40:42,600
Uh, and, and in that area in North
Carolina, they actually started to add,

734
00:40:42,990 --> 00:40:47,640
um, you know, like a, basically like a,
a catch share kind of thing where people

735
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:52,169
can put money in and they would have
an idea of like what they could get.

736
00:40:52,169 --> 00:40:55,439
And they would, they would get some,
some, some of the fish, so they would

737
00:40:55,439 --> 00:40:57,540
know that the seafood would stay
local and the fishers would know

738
00:40:57,540 --> 00:41:00,149
who's eating the seafood and you
would know who caught your seafood.

739
00:41:00,149 --> 00:41:02,580
And it was really a nice,
uh, community thing.

740
00:41:02,584 --> 00:41:05,069
And, and it, it was
profitable for both sides.

741
00:41:05,339 --> 00:41:08,939
Um, you know, you get the, the
community got affordable fish and

742
00:41:08,939 --> 00:41:12,839
seafood and then the fishers were able
to, uh, get money for that seafood

743
00:41:12,839 --> 00:41:14,279
and see where their seafood goes.

744
00:41:15,195 --> 00:41:18,585
It's, it's a really interesting
idea, bringing it back to the local

745
00:41:18,585 --> 00:41:21,165
and, and less like, let's ship
it off, not know where everything

746
00:41:21,165 --> 00:41:22,425
goes, but still make our money.

747
00:41:22,695 --> 00:41:27,045
But a lot of people in the middle make
the money, the middle people, as they

748
00:41:27,045 --> 00:41:30,285
say, make, uh, the money and then it
kinda grows and grows and gets more

749
00:41:30,285 --> 00:41:31,635
expensive and gets more expensive.

750
00:41:32,685 --> 00:41:39,975
Why are Cat shares such, uh, an
interesting solution and a, and a growing

751
00:41:39,975 --> 00:41:43,785
solution in a lot of communities, not
only in the US but all over the world?

752
00:41:44,265 --> 00:41:47,325
Uh, why is that becoming more,
it's almost like going back to

753
00:41:47,325 --> 00:41:48,795
the local, you know what I mean?

754
00:41:48,795 --> 00:41:51,855
It's like when, in our, in to, to
make it an analogy, it's like, in our

755
00:41:51,855 --> 00:41:55,665
lives we rush everywhere and a lot
of times when people say, if you want

756
00:41:55,665 --> 00:42:00,435
to be more conservation focused, it's
better to kind of slow your life down.

757
00:42:00,495 --> 00:42:03,495
You know, Dr. Wallace, j Nichols used
to talk about the slow coast and,

758
00:42:03,705 --> 00:42:06,945
you know, slowing your life down and
enjoying nature a little bit more.

759
00:42:07,305 --> 00:42:09,375
I feel like this is kind
of like the same thing.

760
00:42:09,375 --> 00:42:12,390
Is it bringing it back local
and hope that, you know.

761
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:14,490
And, and you get the benefits of that.

762
00:42:14,490 --> 00:42:19,230
So why is this such a, um,
uh, an important tool in, in

763
00:42:19,230 --> 00:42:20,520
conservation for fisheries?

764
00:42:22,254 --> 00:42:24,450
I think I, I, I like your point.

765
00:42:24,450 --> 00:42:29,190
I think often we talk, we talk
about how, um, the people closest

766
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:32,730
to, to the problem are often the
best to come up with the solution.

767
00:42:33,299 --> 00:42:36,750
Um, like we, what am I I, I'm
sitting here in this room.

768
00:42:36,750 --> 00:42:37,740
What do I know, right?

769
00:42:37,740 --> 00:42:42,270
Like, yeah, it's actually the people who
are, who are living and experiencing the

770
00:42:42,270 --> 00:42:47,580
problem that are gonna be the most likely
to have a durable strategy for fix this.

771
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:52,109
Um, and I think what, so what shares?

772
00:42:52,415 --> 00:42:56,370
I, I think catch shares is part,
like one way for that to happen.

773
00:42:56,370 --> 00:43:03,569
So if you think about, um, it
enabling fishermen to have some, um,

774
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,810
agency basically over their, their.

775
00:43:07,140 --> 00:43:07,920
Future.

776
00:43:08,130 --> 00:43:12,540
This is fundamentally what it is
because you're, by providing them

777
00:43:12,540 --> 00:43:15,870
certainty that they can catch so
much in a year, which is mm-hmm.

778
00:43:16,110 --> 00:43:19,650
What the share is, it's like this
certainty of how much they can catch,

779
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:26,490
they can figure out how to catch it and
maximize their profits on the other end

780
00:43:26,695 --> 00:43:31,200
so they could time their catch to when
the market conditions are gonna be better.

781
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,200
They may get more price per
pound at a certain time right.

782
00:43:34,530 --> 00:43:37,740
Then, then they, if they were all out
at the same time and coming back to

783
00:43:37,740 --> 00:43:41,100
the dock with the same at the same
time, which creates a market glut

784
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,110
and then they get low, low prices.

785
00:43:43,530 --> 00:43:48,660
And so to your point, like slowing
it down actually gives the fishermen

786
00:43:48,660 --> 00:43:54,450
more agency decision making agency
about their own job and their own

787
00:43:54,510 --> 00:43:56,610
economic, you know, potential.

788
00:43:57,030 --> 00:44:00,540
They can also do value
added, um, enhancements.

789
00:44:00,900 --> 00:44:05,070
So you can think about, do you wanna, um.

790
00:44:05,415 --> 00:44:08,984
Do you wanna change the type of fishing
gear you're using to be able to market

791
00:44:08,984 --> 00:44:12,015
to a more higher end crowd, right?

792
00:44:12,015 --> 00:44:18,615
Like you can actually, you can do that by,
by having certainty, you can fundamentally

793
00:44:18,615 --> 00:44:24,134
shift your practice of fishing, which
typically is gonna mean less waste, better

794
00:44:24,134 --> 00:44:31,245
quality product, higher price per pound,
and more ability then to negotiate with

795
00:44:31,245 --> 00:44:33,165
whomever is buying your fish from you.

796
00:44:33,254 --> 00:44:33,615
And you.

797
00:44:33,674 --> 00:44:38,955
You see then forward contracting starting,
you can, you can plan out not just this

798
00:44:38,955 --> 00:44:42,944
fishing year, but future fishing years
because you know that, that as long as

799
00:44:42,944 --> 00:44:47,595
you don't violate the rules or go over
your limit, you know that next year

800
00:44:47,595 --> 00:44:51,825
you're still gonna have that percentage
share and you can fish more next year.

801
00:44:52,395 --> 00:44:56,174
And that driver actually at, at a
fleet level, when you think about

802
00:44:56,174 --> 00:45:00,975
all the boats in one fishery that
have, have some version of shares.

803
00:45:01,740 --> 00:45:05,910
Everybody then is incentivized to
actually under fish the limit that year.

804
00:45:05,915 --> 00:45:06,125
Mm-hmm.

805
00:45:06,210 --> 00:45:08,760
Because they can fish more next year.

806
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:08,850
Right.

807
00:45:09,090 --> 00:45:10,800
Because it's a percentage share.

808
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:15,330
So that's how you see the
fishery rebuild so quickly.

809
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:16,140
Yeah.

810
00:45:16,140 --> 00:45:20,400
And the fishermen earning a
higher profit almost immediately.

811
00:45:20,430 --> 00:45:25,260
So it really is this like
win-win solution now.

812
00:45:25,260 --> 00:45:26,400
It's not perfect.

813
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:26,520
Right.

814
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:26,700
Of course.

815
00:45:26,700 --> 00:45:28,830
It doesn't solve every
problem in the world.

816
00:45:29,070 --> 00:45:29,220
Yeah.

817
00:45:29,310 --> 00:45:31,020
Um, or even in the, in the fishery.

818
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,760
But it, it definitely, it, it definitely
creates that path by which fishermen do

819
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,770
better and the fish populations rebound.

820
00:45:37,770 --> 00:45:41,550
And that's why I think it's spreading
around the world because people are

821
00:45:41,550 --> 00:45:48,720
seeing that it, it creates, um, a
virtuous, virtuous cycle rather than a

822
00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:51,120
perverse one that draws everything down.

823
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:52,470
Wonderful.

824
00:45:52,470 --> 00:45:54,000
I love that ex that explanation.

825
00:45:54,060 --> 00:45:56,310
Um, here's a question for you.

826
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,720
When, you know, when we talk, you
know, there's a lot of different

827
00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:03,300
tools in the conservation tool
belt, especially around fisheries.

828
00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:04,800
Marine protected areas is one of them.

829
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,550
And a lot of times when marine protected
areas are suggested, there's a lull

830
00:46:08,550 --> 00:46:10,710
in the ability to catch, right?

831
00:46:10,710 --> 00:46:13,890
Like they, you know, there may, there
might be in that area you can't catch

832
00:46:13,890 --> 00:46:17,580
for a certain amount of time or you may
not be, be able to catch for a while

833
00:46:17,580 --> 00:46:19,170
until the fishery starts to recuperate.

834
00:46:19,170 --> 00:46:21,990
'cause it could be in that state,
you know, where it needs to be.

835
00:46:22,620 --> 00:46:26,850
When you implement a catch share, you
know, you're taking a percentage of,

836
00:46:26,910 --> 00:46:28,080
you know, everybody gets a percentage.

837
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,630
But like you said, a lot of times
under the percentage or maybe even

838
00:46:30,630 --> 00:46:34,920
under what the quota it was initially,
because you know you can fish more.

839
00:46:34,980 --> 00:46:38,160
Is there, um, a delay in fishing?

840
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:43,020
So when a catch share is put in, do
fishers have to wait a bit and then

841
00:46:43,020 --> 00:46:48,000
they're able to fish, like, wait a season
or, or what have you until, um, that

842
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,130
fish population recoup a little bit more?

843
00:46:50,130 --> 00:46:51,780
Or can they still fish?

844
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,830
Just they can, they may not be able
to fish as much that year compared

845
00:46:55,830 --> 00:46:56,970
to the next and the next beyond.

846
00:47:00,225 --> 00:47:01,785
I don't know of a case.

847
00:47:01,785 --> 00:47:03,435
There may be some that exist.

848
00:47:03,435 --> 00:47:09,195
I don't know of a case in which a fishery
was entirely closed from day one of a new

849
00:47:09,225 --> 00:47:11,205
cat share program being put into place.

850
00:47:11,325 --> 00:47:11,355
Okay.

851
00:47:11,355 --> 00:47:14,775
And that's a fundamentally a science
question of like, well, how much phishing

852
00:47:14,775 --> 00:47:20,565
is, is per, should be permittable based
on, you know, how much fish are out there.

853
00:47:20,565 --> 00:47:22,305
So that's really a science question.

854
00:47:22,785 --> 00:47:25,425
Um, what we do, what we have seen.

855
00:47:25,425 --> 00:47:29,205
So in an extreme case that
EDF was very much part of.

856
00:47:29,205 --> 00:47:30,705
So I can speak to this.

857
00:47:31,305 --> 00:47:31,755
Um.

858
00:47:32,610 --> 00:47:36,270
The West Coast of the United States,
the Groundfish fishery, which is the

859
00:47:36,270 --> 00:47:40,590
same complex of species that are in the
British Columbia Groundfish fishery,

860
00:47:41,010 --> 00:47:42,780
um, was in a state of collapse.

861
00:47:42,780 --> 00:47:44,820
It was declared a federal disaster.

862
00:47:45,300 --> 00:47:49,650
And these are, it's like a, it's
a complex of dozens of different

863
00:47:49,650 --> 00:47:54,570
species, often very difficult to even
determine what their differences.

864
00:47:54,570 --> 00:47:57,150
Like it's very hard to speciate them.

865
00:47:57,150 --> 00:48:01,440
Even when you get them on board, they all
look the same and they're super long live.

866
00:48:02,190 --> 00:48:07,140
So you've got a long, very long live
species, which, which should mean it

867
00:48:07,140 --> 00:48:09,360
takes a long time to recover, right?

868
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:13,590
Like the recovery trajectory would be
very long 'cause it, 'cause it takes a

869
00:48:13,590 --> 00:48:16,800
long time for them to get to maturity
where they're gonna produce more fish.

870
00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:22,800
Um, and when the, the West Coast
Groundfish fishery cat share was

871
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:28,530
implemented, there were some of these
stocks, some species that were so

872
00:48:28,530 --> 00:48:31,350
overfished that they basically had.

873
00:48:31,485 --> 00:48:33,825
A a a zero catch limit.

874
00:48:33,975 --> 00:48:38,775
Some version, it wasn't quite zero, but
it was just, it was just shy of zero.

875
00:48:39,315 --> 00:48:39,435
Right.

876
00:48:39,495 --> 00:48:43,965
And these are fish that if they all school
together, so if you catch one, you're

877
00:48:43,965 --> 00:48:45,585
gonna catch a whole boatload of them.

878
00:48:46,815 --> 00:48:50,175
And if you catch a boatload of them,
the entire fleet gets shut down

879
00:48:50,535 --> 00:48:54,645
because you've, you've exceeded the
limit and the person who caught it is

880
00:48:54,645 --> 00:48:56,325
probably gonna be out of their quota.

881
00:48:56,685 --> 00:48:56,895
Right.

882
00:48:57,075 --> 00:49:00,225
So what the fishermen did was
they worked together to create

883
00:49:00,225 --> 00:49:01,755
what was called a risk pool.

884
00:49:01,995 --> 00:49:06,765
So they pooled their quota of these
super overfished species with the

885
00:49:06,765 --> 00:49:10,425
recognition that if one person
gets hit, everybody's gonna suffer.

886
00:49:10,455 --> 00:49:13,455
So we want, we wanna be
able to spread that around.

887
00:49:13,725 --> 00:49:18,585
And at the same time, then, well, around
the same time, they worked collectively

888
00:49:18,585 --> 00:49:23,415
to figure out where those super
depleted species were most likely to be.

889
00:49:23,775 --> 00:49:28,485
And they created these marine protected
areas that they all stayed out of.

890
00:49:28,490 --> 00:49:28,690
Mm-hmm.

891
00:49:29,685 --> 00:49:33,345
So in doing so, they never
actually hit one of those,

892
00:49:33,345 --> 00:49:34,904
what was called a disaster tow.

893
00:49:35,384 --> 00:49:41,024
And these super long live super
rare fish rebounded very quickly.

894
00:49:41,595 --> 00:49:41,654
Hmm.

895
00:49:41,774 --> 00:49:44,984
Because it was in their, it was
the incentives were set up so

896
00:49:44,984 --> 00:49:46,214
that they would protect them.

897
00:49:47,580 --> 00:49:48,060
Unreal.

898
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:49,815
This is such a cool thing
and it's such a cool, yeah.

899
00:49:50,490 --> 00:49:54,509
You know, like it's such a cool
tool to use and it brings it

900
00:49:54,509 --> 00:49:55,950
back, like I said, locally.

901
00:49:55,950 --> 00:49:57,270
And, and I just love that.

902
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:02,550
But it's also a tool that not a lot of
people who are not necessarily involved

903
00:50:02,550 --> 00:50:06,120
in fisheries or like, just like sort
of the, the average person, you know,

904
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:10,110
who's running around and eating seafood
like they want, and, um, you know,

905
00:50:10,110 --> 00:50:14,009
trying to just survive life as, as, as
we live and, and, and stuff, uh, but

906
00:50:14,009 --> 00:50:15,750
are not super involved in fisheries.

907
00:50:15,750 --> 00:50:18,000
They don't really know about cat shares.

908
00:50:18,270 --> 00:50:20,670
Uh, and so there's ways to communicate it.

909
00:50:20,670 --> 00:50:24,210
And, and, and one way that I love,
uh, to make it really entertaining

910
00:50:24,210 --> 00:50:28,410
is the way you did it with, uh, your,
your, uh, co-writer James Workman.

911
00:50:28,710 --> 00:50:30,570
Uh, was this book here, uh, sea Change.

912
00:50:30,570 --> 00:50:33,540
I'm gonna put it up here on the video
so if, if people are watching, uh,

913
00:50:33,540 --> 00:50:35,370
on, on YouTube to take a look at it.

914
00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:38,070
And I really love the approach.

915
00:50:38,350 --> 00:50:42,310
That you took, that you both took
on this, uh, it's called Sea Change,

916
00:50:42,310 --> 00:50:46,120
unlikely Allies, and a success story
of oceanic proportions, which I love.

917
00:50:46,510 --> 00:50:50,230
Um, but it was all about catch shares,
but it was, there was a story behind

918
00:50:50,230 --> 00:50:55,000
it, and it followed this fisher
buddy and he, his entire life from

919
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,940
childhood all the way to, you know, Mr.

920
00:50:57,940 --> 00:50:59,410
Fish who's trying to fish.

921
00:50:59,415 --> 00:51:03,040
And, and even in the book, I don't want to
give too much away, but even in the book,

922
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:07,720
he says, you know, the, the, the, the
words say like, you know, if, if, if, if

923
00:51:07,780 --> 00:51:10,870
somebody's gonna catch the last one, if I
don't, you know, someone's gonna be there.

924
00:51:10,870 --> 00:51:11,890
I see that in the book.

925
00:51:11,890 --> 00:51:16,420
And, uh, he's just sort of like what
we would typify as a fisher without

926
00:51:16,420 --> 00:51:23,260
stereotyping, but following a real story
and understanding how the evolution, uh,

927
00:51:23,290 --> 00:51:28,330
came to be and, and, and joining in on
this, on this catch share, why the book.

928
00:51:28,740 --> 00:51:34,170
And, and, and, and is this like a project
for from Environmental Defense Fund?

929
00:51:34,170 --> 00:51:36,630
Is this something that's
personal and like, why did you

930
00:51:36,630 --> 00:51:38,640
decide to go the book route?

931
00:51:40,170 --> 00:51:42,000
It's a lot of questions all
at once, so I apologize.

932
00:51:43,050 --> 00:51:50,400
Um, well, the book, so I, I think that,
um, in a world of one minute increments

933
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:55,470
of news, we sometimes forget about what
has actually happened in the world.

934
00:51:57,205 --> 00:51:57,615
It's true.

935
00:51:58,195 --> 00:51:58,535
So true.

936
00:51:58,535 --> 00:52:02,490
So like, a little bit, this is like, um,
this is like taking a, it's like taking a

937
00:52:02,490 --> 00:52:09,270
minute and, and thinking, you know what,
and recalling something really incredibly

938
00:52:09,390 --> 00:52:14,700
powerful that happened that made almost no
news right at the, like, which was the re

939
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:20,340
and the book is about the recovery of US
fisheries, but then it spreads out to how

940
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,160
this fisherman buddy doesn't become just.

941
00:52:23,700 --> 00:52:27,780
Chief a, a chief advocate of
sustainable fisheries in the us He

942
00:52:27,780 --> 00:52:32,340
then travels around the world and, and
brings his story to others as well.

943
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:37,770
And so I think it's really, um, I
think the intentionality around the

944
00:52:37,770 --> 00:52:43,620
book was capturing the breadth of the
story, the humanness of the story of

945
00:52:43,620 --> 00:52:51,210
Buddy, um, as the protagonist and the
cast of like, of many other fishermen

946
00:52:51,210 --> 00:52:54,960
who are involved in that story
along the way in some, in some way.

947
00:52:55,500 --> 00:52:58,680
And, um, and celebrating it.

948
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:03,120
A little bit of my, like, my purpose
here is like, let's celebrate something

949
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:04,920
really great that has happened.

950
00:53:05,340 --> 00:53:05,430
Yeah.

951
00:53:05,430 --> 00:53:10,530
And we spend too much time talking
about collapse and degradation

952
00:53:10,530 --> 00:53:12,660
and the future's gonna be worse.

953
00:53:13,140 --> 00:53:16,875
And I. It isn't always the case.

954
00:53:16,875 --> 00:53:16,935
Yeah.

955
00:53:16,965 --> 00:53:21,075
And I think we don't do enough to talk
about progress and environmentalists

956
00:53:21,075 --> 00:53:24,884
are like typified to be the,
like the shooting for perfection.

957
00:53:25,154 --> 00:53:25,424
Mm-hmm.

958
00:53:25,665 --> 00:53:28,965
We're always shooting for perfection
and that drives people nuts.

959
00:53:29,265 --> 00:53:29,625
Mm-hmm.

960
00:53:29,895 --> 00:53:29,935
And I get it.

961
00:53:30,645 --> 00:53:37,065
And actually this is about something
that's really good and really durable.

962
00:53:37,545 --> 00:53:37,695
Yeah.

963
00:53:37,695 --> 00:53:41,835
And that's, to me, like that's
what we should be aiming for.

964
00:53:41,835 --> 00:53:47,384
So a little bit trying to set up that
environmental progress can happen.

965
00:53:47,625 --> 00:53:47,985
Yeah.

966
00:53:48,165 --> 00:53:51,615
Um, and, and there's something
to celebrate around that.

967
00:53:52,335 --> 00:54:00,435
And what I love a, about this story is it
spans almost like before, you know Yeah.

968
00:54:00,465 --> 00:54:03,015
Fisheries policies came into play.

969
00:54:04,065 --> 00:54:08,325
Two, you know, we're at where we're at,
you know, over the last like 20 years

970
00:54:08,325 --> 00:54:12,495
in terms of, you know, advocacy and,
and, and understanding fisheries better.

971
00:54:13,035 --> 00:54:16,845
But the story of how the Magnus
and Stevenson Act came in.

972
00:54:17,819 --> 00:54:19,859
I did not know that story before.

973
00:54:19,859 --> 00:54:22,379
I knew of the policy and I
knew how effective it was.

974
00:54:22,620 --> 00:54:26,040
I didn't, I'm not gonna say how it came
in 'cause I want people to read it, but

975
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,140
I actually like, stood up from my seat.

976
00:54:28,140 --> 00:54:30,629
I was at a cottage in front of
water, of course, that's where

977
00:54:30,629 --> 00:54:32,069
you wanna read your book on water.

978
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,200
And I was like, you gotta be kidding.

979
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:36,990
Me and my friends who were around
me were like, what are you doing?

980
00:54:36,990 --> 00:54:38,220
I'm like, I did not know this.

981
00:54:38,220 --> 00:54:41,100
And I told them the story
and it was phenomenal.

982
00:54:41,100 --> 00:54:47,310
I did not realize that that's how this,
you know, fishing policy that has pretty

983
00:54:47,310 --> 00:54:51,810
much brought back a lot of fishy, a lot of
fisheries around the US was implemented.

984
00:54:51,810 --> 00:54:55,620
So I'm not gonna say why and,
and how, but read the book.

985
00:54:55,650 --> 00:54:57,629
Uh, and it because it's important.

986
00:54:57,629 --> 00:55:01,589
It, I think it's, it really gives you a
history of how things have come through.

987
00:55:01,589 --> 00:55:02,790
It's not always perfect.

988
00:55:02,790 --> 00:55:07,470
It's not always necessarily for one reason
or another, but there's always a reason

989
00:55:07,470 --> 00:55:12,810
why things come in, especially when you
look at how it was done, who did it.

990
00:55:13,379 --> 00:55:13,920
Um.

991
00:55:14,490 --> 00:55:18,660
And in a situation where we're in
now, where it seems like a lot of

992
00:55:18,660 --> 00:55:22,680
people are against the environment,
uh, from a policy perspective, how

993
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,520
things can maybe come into play
that would benefit the environment

994
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,640
and real world situations as well.

995
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,640
It, it, that's what it made me think
about, but again, I don't want to go into

996
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:36,450
too much detail because I don't want to
give it away, but all this stuff, like,

997
00:55:36,450 --> 00:55:41,760
it's a rich history followed through the
lens of, of someone who's gone through

998
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:46,170
problems, you know, with the family and
then life and then, you know, it, it's

999
00:55:46,170 --> 00:55:50,130
just he kind of goes all over the place
and then, but he, he has like a goal

1000
00:55:50,130 --> 00:55:54,270
and you're, you're invested in Buddy
throughout this whole time and, and I

1001
00:55:54,270 --> 00:55:56,790
just thought it was, is really great.

1002
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:00,810
Um, now were, have you always
wanted, is this your first book

1003
00:56:00,810 --> 00:56:01,765
or have you written books before?

1004
00:56:03,825 --> 00:56:04,995
I have not written books.

1005
00:56:04,995 --> 00:56:07,155
I have to give Jamie a
lot of the credit here.

1006
00:56:07,155 --> 00:56:11,085
So my co-author, who is an
award-winning author, right?

1007
00:56:11,205 --> 00:56:16,935
Um, I am, I am your typical nonprofit
executive where if you can't say

1008
00:56:16,935 --> 00:56:20,805
it to me in one page, like I'm not
gonna, like, I can't, there's only

1009
00:56:20,805 --> 00:56:22,635
so much I can absorb at once, right?

1010
00:56:22,635 --> 00:56:27,105
So I am, I am not, I I will
say, admit that I'm the not the

1011
00:56:27,105 --> 00:56:29,805
long form narrative driver here.

1012
00:56:29,805 --> 00:56:29,895
Right.

1013
00:56:29,895 --> 00:56:34,095
Jamie Very much is, and I'm
very unreal, grateful for him.

1014
00:56:34,515 --> 00:56:38,295
Um, the story was very much a
partnership, so I don't want people

1015
00:56:38,295 --> 00:56:41,535
to think that, like he, you know,
he wrote it and my name's on it.

1016
00:56:41,535 --> 00:56:42,885
It's very much a partnership.

1017
00:56:43,305 --> 00:56:43,515
Yeah.

1018
00:56:43,575 --> 00:56:47,925
Um, but he did really, I mean, he
brought in a lot of those sort of

1019
00:56:47,925 --> 00:56:52,155
pre-history elements, which I think
really make the story much more robust.

1020
00:56:52,155 --> 00:56:56,445
And there's a depth there that, you know,
going all the way back to the first,

1021
00:56:56,535 --> 00:56:58,635
you know, the, the, the finding of the.

1022
00:56:59,505 --> 00:57:03,915
First fishing hook and the, in the
colonial history of the United States.

1023
00:57:03,915 --> 00:57:07,125
Like, he was able to pull, I don't
know if you've read those bits yet,

1024
00:57:07,125 --> 00:57:14,355
but he was able to pull things into the
story that, um, remarkably like create

1025
00:57:14,355 --> 00:57:16,575
this, this movement in this story.

1026
00:57:16,575 --> 00:57:16,585
Yeah.

1027
00:57:16,585 --> 00:57:22,365
That, um, that give buddy in his,
in his life much more richness.

1028
00:57:22,695 --> 00:57:26,295
I often, I don't know if you've ever read
Mark Kurlansky, but I've, you know, I

1029
00:57:26,295 --> 00:57:31,515
read cod, so he had cod salt, I think he
had a baseball book where he tells this

1030
00:57:31,545 --> 00:57:36,345
history of the world around one item and
one of of 'em was about catfish in the

1031
00:57:36,345 --> 00:57:41,085
United States and the, like, the Colonial
America and all, and the Basks coming

1032
00:57:41,085 --> 00:57:43,155
over, you know, even long before that.

1033
00:57:43,545 --> 00:57:47,655
Anyway, I, he tells the story based
on this one thing, and I feel like

1034
00:57:47,655 --> 00:57:53,085
what we've done in this book is
we've sort of cur Lansky esque it.

1035
00:57:53,430 --> 00:57:57,000
Such that it's really about buddy's
life, but it's about how the world

1036
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:00,930
is changing based on somebody
who's demonstrated real leadership.

1037
00:58:01,500 --> 00:58:01,740
Yeah.

1038
00:58:01,740 --> 00:58:05,070
And is an unlikely, um, hero.

1039
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:07,410
Like you don't expect him to be a hero.

1040
00:58:07,530 --> 00:58:08,250
Not at all.

1041
00:58:08,340 --> 00:58:09,090
Not at all.

1042
00:58:09,270 --> 00:58:10,200
You don't expect it.

1043
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:13,590
But you're also not surprised because
just the way his life has gone.

1044
00:58:13,710 --> 00:58:14,340
You know what I mean?

1045
00:58:14,340 --> 00:58:14,400
Yeah.

1046
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:15,660
You're like, yeah, that makes sense.

1047
00:58:15,930 --> 00:58:20,100
Um, but it kind of goes to the evolution
of, of Fishers, you know, throughout

1048
00:58:20,100 --> 00:58:21,510
their lifetime and what they learn.

1049
00:58:21,510 --> 00:58:26,190
And just like we have as scientists
and, and advocates and, and executives

1050
00:58:26,190 --> 00:58:29,190
and nonprofits go through the same
kind of thing, there's definitely

1051
00:58:29,190 --> 00:58:33,090
an education through life and life
histories and, and um, you know,

1052
00:58:33,090 --> 00:58:36,690
things that happened, whether it's on
a international level or whether it's

1053
00:58:36,690 --> 00:58:40,950
on a level where, um, you know, we
just don't, we just don't understand.

1054
00:58:40,950 --> 00:58:42,570
So I think it's, I think it's wonderful.

1055
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:44,190
I, I really think it's great.

1056
00:58:44,250 --> 00:58:46,530
I, I would love to get, um.

1057
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:48,930
Your perspective on catch shares?

1058
00:58:48,930 --> 00:58:51,750
Like what is the future of CATCH shares?

1059
00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:53,850
Yeah, it's a, it's a really good question.

1060
00:58:53,850 --> 00:58:56,790
I think it's a story that
will cont in some ways, sort

1061
00:58:56,790 --> 00:58:58,290
of continue to write itself.

1062
00:58:58,290 --> 00:59:02,250
Meaning that there's a lot of
evidence to suggest that this kind of

1063
00:59:02,250 --> 00:59:04,770
management strategy works really well.

1064
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:07,799
Um, and it works in a diversity
of types of fisheries.

1065
00:59:07,799 --> 00:59:10,890
You can do the kinds that we
talked about that are operating

1066
00:59:10,890 --> 00:59:12,420
here in the United States Okay.

1067
00:59:12,420 --> 00:59:16,680
That are percentage based, but there
are others in Belize, for example,

1068
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:21,600
or in tropical coral reef ecosystems
where they do it based on an area.

1069
00:59:21,990 --> 00:59:24,930
Um, so it's much more area
based, but still there's.

1070
00:59:25,259 --> 00:59:29,399
Certain fishermen who have access
to certain areas and they defend

1071
00:59:29,399 --> 00:59:30,839
them, they're called turfs.

1072
00:59:30,959 --> 00:59:34,200
It's an adaptation of a,
of a catch share program.

1073
00:59:34,620 --> 00:59:39,629
And fundamentally, it's a, it's a, it's a
market-based and a rights-based strategy.

1074
00:59:39,629 --> 00:59:44,459
So it, it invests people and it provides
for that economic opportunity for them.

1075
00:59:44,459 --> 00:59:49,740
Um, and I think that around the
world, we'll continue to see, uh,

1076
00:59:49,740 --> 00:59:51,810
fisheries make the conversion.

1077
00:59:52,290 --> 00:59:55,680
It takes time because you really need
the fishermen and the communities to

1078
00:59:55,680 --> 01:00:00,029
be part of the design process in order
to get it right for it to solve for the

1079
01:00:00,029 --> 01:00:02,009
things that they need it to solve for.

1080
01:00:02,100 --> 01:00:03,990
Different fisheries have different needs.

1081
01:00:04,799 --> 01:00:06,299
Um, what is.

1082
01:00:06,645 --> 01:00:12,375
New in the equation since the US
federal fisheries went through its big

1083
01:00:12,375 --> 01:00:18,015
conversion, which is the story of what
sea change lays out is, is climate change.

1084
01:00:18,044 --> 01:00:24,765
So with climate change and warming
waters we're, we are now seeing a

1085
01:00:24,884 --> 01:00:29,084
change in the distribution of fish
away from the tropics because they're

1086
01:00:29,084 --> 01:00:32,459
warming That's fine towards the
poles, that's worries and Gotcha.

1087
01:00:32,959 --> 01:00:37,694
And so fish are now crossing
political boundaries mm-hmm.

1088
01:00:37,935 --> 01:00:42,734
That we have put on a map that they
don't understand, um, in search of

1089
01:00:42,734 --> 01:00:45,524
colder waters because there are not fish.

1090
01:00:45,529 --> 01:00:45,580
Mm-hmm.

1091
01:00:45,759 --> 01:00:49,424
You know, fish have, they have
a pretty, oh, sorry if you

1092
01:00:49,424 --> 01:00:50,475
heard that computer noise.

1093
01:00:50,535 --> 01:00:55,665
Um, they, they have a pretty,
um, tight thermal tolerance.

1094
01:00:55,785 --> 01:00:58,424
All sp marine species do the water.

1095
01:00:58,725 --> 01:01:01,185
Oceans have been pretty
stable for a long time.

1096
01:01:01,814 --> 01:01:05,174
And so they're looking
for cooler things now.

1097
01:01:06,180 --> 01:01:10,379
Um, and that's why we're gonna
see, even in some areas where you

1098
01:01:10,379 --> 01:01:14,220
change the fisheries management,
certain species may never come back.

1099
01:01:14,339 --> 01:01:17,459
And that's the reality that we
have to start thinking about.

1100
01:01:17,490 --> 01:01:19,379
Like, I don't think we'll ever see.

1101
01:01:20,279 --> 01:01:24,870
The Gulf of Maine be a place where
there's a lot of codfish in the future.

1102
01:01:25,314 --> 01:01:27,535
Not because, oh, I lost
the management system.

1103
01:01:27,535 --> 01:01:27,975
Lost you again.

1104
01:01:27,975 --> 01:01:29,055
Is not working for cod.

1105
01:01:29,055 --> 01:01:29,214
Lost.

1106
01:01:29,214 --> 01:01:29,455
Lost.

1107
01:01:29,455 --> 01:01:30,535
It's because Lost again, but that's okay.

1108
01:01:30,535 --> 01:01:31,214
Their cod pool.

1109
01:01:31,245 --> 01:01:31,535
What?

1110
01:01:31,535 --> 01:01:34,294
I'm gonna lemme finish it off here
so they're moving north because

1111
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:35,460
I think we got a good answer.

1112
01:01:35,460 --> 01:01:38,580
Know towards, uh, Amanda,
this has been wonderful.

1113
01:01:38,609 --> 01:01:42,899
I I really do appreciate that, uh,
you coming on and spending your time.

1114
01:01:42,899 --> 01:01:45,600
I know you're busy and I, I do appreciate
all the work that you do and all the

1115
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:47,279
work that you've put into this book.

1116
01:01:47,279 --> 01:01:48,240
And Jamie as well.

1117
01:01:48,450 --> 01:01:51,960
Um, this book will be on sale when
we post this recording, so I'll put

1118
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:56,370
the links into the, uh, into the
show notes so people can get access.

1119
01:01:56,430 --> 01:02:00,480
So it's, she cha, see change,
unlikely Allies, and a success

1120
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:02,460
story of oceanographic Proportions.

1121
01:02:02,549 --> 01:02:04,140
I highly recommend that
you read this book.

1122
01:02:04,169 --> 01:02:06,839
I am loving it so far and
I can't wait to finish it.

1123
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:10,470
Uh, and this is a, a story that
I'm sure we'll hear a lot more of.

1124
01:02:10,740 --> 01:02:11,580
As we progress.

1125
01:02:11,580 --> 01:02:12,600
So thank you so much, Amanda.

1126
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:13,259
I really appreciate it.

1127
01:02:13,290 --> 01:02:15,540
Thank you, Amanda, for joining
us on today's episode of the How

1128
01:02:15,540 --> 01:02:16,589
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

1129
01:02:16,589 --> 01:02:19,049
It was so fun to be able to talk with you.

1130
01:02:19,109 --> 01:02:21,540
It's very rare where I speak to
executive directors and especially

1131
01:02:21,540 --> 01:02:23,160
one who was a marine scientist before.

1132
01:02:23,310 --> 01:02:24,419
There's a couple that I've done.

1133
01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:25,290
It's been wonderful.

1134
01:02:25,290 --> 01:02:29,399
It's just great to be able to hear their
perspective and hear this story and

1135
01:02:29,430 --> 01:02:33,870
why it's so important, why Catch shares
are becoming a bigger and bigger tool

1136
01:02:33,899 --> 01:02:38,370
for conservation, for fisheries, and
also benefit both the Fisher as well

1137
01:02:38,370 --> 01:02:41,640
as their local communities and maybe
even a larger portion of that as well.

1138
01:02:41,700 --> 01:02:45,000
If you wanna buy the book, I'm gonna
put the link down below, but if

1139
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:47,819
you have any questions or comments,
please let me know 'cause I'd be

1140
01:02:47,819 --> 01:02:50,730
more than happy to answer those for
you, or I'll pass 'em off to Amanda.

1141
01:02:50,730 --> 01:02:53,580
She can help direct you to the
answers that you have to know, so

1142
01:02:53,580 --> 01:02:54,930
just put 'em in the comments below.

1143
01:02:54,930 --> 01:02:58,020
If you're listening to this on
YouTube, or of course you can DM me.

1144
01:02:58,254 --> 01:03:02,665
At How to Protect the Ocean on Instagram,
just at how to protect the ocean.

1145
01:03:02,904 --> 01:03:05,305
And if you really want to get to
know more about the podcast, you

1146
01:03:05,305 --> 01:03:06,955
can go speak up for blue.com.

1147
01:03:07,225 --> 01:03:08,904
There's a contact page if
you wanna contact me, it goes

1148
01:03:08,904 --> 01:03:09,714
through my personal email.

1149
01:03:09,714 --> 01:03:10,765
Feel free to do that.

1150
01:03:10,825 --> 01:03:12,444
And that's it for today's episode.

1151
01:03:12,444 --> 01:03:15,504
I really pleased to be able
to bring you this episode.

1152
01:03:15,595 --> 01:03:20,004
I really am happy that you continue
to support the podcast on YouTube, on

1153
01:03:20,004 --> 01:03:24,535
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music,
wherever you listen to your podcast.

1154
01:03:24,535 --> 01:03:26,095
It is been a continued pleasure.

1155
01:03:26,275 --> 01:03:27,145
I'm not going anywhere.

1156
01:03:27,205 --> 01:03:29,545
I just like to acknowledge
that and be grateful.

1157
01:03:29,665 --> 01:03:32,904
I am grateful for the fact that you
continue to listen to this podcast.

1158
01:03:32,904 --> 01:03:35,754
It makes me feel really good that you
want to know more about the ocean.

1159
01:03:35,754 --> 01:03:38,484
So thank you so much for joining
us on today's episode of the How

1160
01:03:38,484 --> 01:03:39,595
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

1161
01:03:39,595 --> 01:03:42,325
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from
the True nor strong and free.

1162
01:03:42,325 --> 01:03:42,895
Have a great day.

1163
01:03:43,134 --> 01:03:45,265
We'll talk to you next
time in Happy Conservation.