Hidden costs of seafood: Why “Sustainable” Tuna Is Being Paid for by Taxpayers

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What if the multi-billion dollar tuna
industry you thought was thriving is

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actually being kept alive by government
support, which means public taxpayer

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money, and with the health of the ocean
and the workers often paying the price.

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Today we're unpacking how Europe's
tuna fleets mask losses with

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subsidies and why that matters to
sustainability and what it means for

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the future of global tuna fishing.

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We're gonna talk about that
on today's episode of the How

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to Protect the ocean Podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody.

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Welcome back to another exciting episode
of the How to Protect the ocean Podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, marine
scientist and science communicator

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here to tell you what's happening with
the ocean, how you can speak up for

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the ocean, and what you can do to live
for a better ocean by taking action.

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On today's episode, we're gonna be talking
about how governments are propping up

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the tuna fishing industry by paying for
subsidies to its operators, to the actual

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fishers, not to the whole area of tuna
fishing, the processors, the plants,

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the seafood markets, and all that kind
of stuff that provides a lot of jobs.

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This is a complex issue, but we're gonna
be focusing on the actual fishers, the

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people that go out and fish for tuna
and what subsidies they're getting

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and why it's so important they get
those subsidies and what it's doing.

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If they didn't have those
subsidies, what it would do to the

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tuna fleet in Spain and France.

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That's what we're gonna
be focusing on today.

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There was a new paper that just came
out talking about this very same

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subject, And so I looked at the paper.

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I wanted to talk about it ' cause
I think it's really important.

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So we're gonna get into it.

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But before we do, I just want to
let you know I've reopened up and

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kind of redesigned my Patreon.

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The idea around it is to
support what I'm doing.

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I am trying to build a network of podcasts
on wildlife specifically the oceans.

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And I'm doing this because
not a lot of people do that.

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Organizations try to put out podcasts.

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And they come in.

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They often fizzle out, not their fault.

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It's a lot of work.

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I'm trying to build this out
independently so I'm not just part of

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one organization, but I can provide a
voice for many organizations and many

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people within the field of wildlife
biology, ocean biology, ocean science,

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marine biology, ocean conservation,
whatever you'd like to call it.

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And so it's really
important for me to do this.

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It's a passion in my life and I don't
always get support from organizations

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or grants and things like that.

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I'm a for-profit company.

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Your help as I was crowdfunding some
of these and just supporting the

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cost of putting out the websites and
the cost of my time and my equipment

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and everything like that, that I
put together really is helpful and

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also to make a living out of it.

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So if you enjoy what you've been
hearing over the last week, if this is

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your first week or the first episode,
or you've been with me for the last

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10 years, I would love your support.

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If you wanna support me, go to
speak up for blue.com/patreon.

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But let's get back into what you're here
to listen to and that is independent

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podcasts on ocean conservation,
talking about tuna fleets, which

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we're gonna be talking about, and
the subsidies that they get because

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subsidies don't get talked about often.

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Let's be honest here.

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It's boring to talk about.

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It's not the sexy part.

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You want to hear like, are the
tuna fish going down in stock?

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Is it a sustainable thing?

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Is it not?

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Look, there are many people working
within this industry to say, whether

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the stocks are doing well or not.

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A lot of tuna fish stocks
are not doing the best.

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There's a big fishery around it.

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There are a lot of people, a lot of
organizations who are working to make it

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better and those are working really well.

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But there's still a lot of
work that we have to do.

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But the thing is, is tuna as an industry
is a big billion dollar industry.

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And so to make sure that that billion
in dollar industry is put together,

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subsidies have to be used in certain
aspects to prop up that activity.

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And in this case, we're
talking about tuna fishing.

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The fishing needs to be propped
up in certain countries.

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So today we're gonna be talking
about French and Spanish companies

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that are looking at the focuses
on the EU purse seine fleets.

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And so that's what we're
gonna be focusing on today.

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'cause research has analyzed
more than a decade of data of

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company-level financial data.

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So this is not stock assessments
or anything like that.

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We're looking at levels of fish.

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We're looking at company-level
financial data with the focus

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of EU purse seine fleets mainly
French and Spanish companies.

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Okay?

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So this is not the entire fleet by any
means, but this is what we're getting a

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subsection of that, which is really great.

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So They separate the actual
operating performance from public

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financial support, which is the
subsidies that we're talking about.

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So this is not just ideology.

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This is not just what we should be
doing and what we shouldn't be doing.

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This is actually accounting.

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We're getting into the forensics
accounting of this fleet, okay?

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And I think it's really
important that we do it.

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So here, let's just go right into it.

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The core findings really is the profits
disappear once without the subsidies.

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So essentially the subsidies are
for fuel tax exemptions, which

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are among the largest subsidies.

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And then of course, the EU funds and
pay fishing access fees to coastal

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habitats to different countries.

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So whatever countries they
go around to, they get that.

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If we remove the support for those two
items, most fleets operate under a loss.

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So the fishing boats and the
fleets operate under a loss.

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In some years, subsidies
exceed reported profits.

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Fishing is a very difficult
industry to get into.

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It really works off of what's
happening in the ocean.

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We know that there's a lot of disturbances
in the ocean from a lot of different ways.

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Climate change, overfishing, plastic
pollution, bad water quality, but

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also we just have fluctuations in
population sizes, just in general.

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And all of those are
from a cumulative impact.

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All of those disturbance I just
mentioned will have an effect on that,

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but also just natural variability
will have an effect on that.

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Sometimes tuna fish are doing well
in population, sometimes they're

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not doing so well in population.

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That could be due to a
number of different issues.

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Right.

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And so it's not necessarily
that the people that are doing

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it are doing the wrong thing.

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It's just the fact that they continue
to fish and there's variability.

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And there's also a lot of disturbances
and there are some bad players in this

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industry as in any industry, That's
not the majority that are bad, but they

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have a living to do and they have to go
out and they have to fish these fish.

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So the question really becomes
obvious here, if these fleets lose

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money without the subsidies, why
do governments keep paying them?

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Why are they losing money
if they don't get subsidy?

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So here it's, so they wanna
prevent economic collapse.

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So without these subsidies,
fleets would shrink or disappear.

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Vessel decommissioning, port closures
and bankruptcies would also follow.

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So the subsidies act as a life support.

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Governments are not just rewarding
success, they are preventing

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the collapse of this fleet.

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And then of course there are
jobs in political stability

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when it really comes down to it.

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So tuna fleet support jobs beyond fishing.

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So processing, shipping, ports, logistics.

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It's a lot of different
jobs that are out there.

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So obviously, you know when you have
job losses and it's concentrated one

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specific fleet, that's not really
great especially politically sensitive

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areas or coastal regions, right?

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When you have like ports closed
down, logistics closed down,

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shipping, processing, the fleet
itself, a lot of people will get

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pretty angry when that went down.

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If you don't realize that or if you
didn't know about the cod industry

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in Canada, on the east coast, when
that cod fishery just basically

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bottomed out and it got closed,
people were rioting in the government

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buildings back in the early nineties.

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It was a crazy scene because
they lost their livelihoods and it

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could have been prevented by the
government, but they didn't prevent it.

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It could have been prevented by a
lot of people that didn't prevent,

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and those people paid with some
scary things that are happening.

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So paying subsidies is often
cheaper politically than

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dealing with the unemployment.

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That's really what it comes
down to in some cases.

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It's like political
parties that are in power.

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They would like to stay in power.

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They would like people to have jobs.

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So if they have to pay a little bit
of money to get more people to stay

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in jobs, that's great, but who pays

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for the consequences around these
subsidies that are paying for

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people to have these jobs, right?

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That's what we're really
kind of coming down to.

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Is it worth it?

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And that is for each country to answer,
I guess, is really what it comes down to.

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And it depends on where you fall
in protecting the environment

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or protecting people's jobs or
just, protecting political power.

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Like it really just depends.

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Because sometimes, the people in
power are looking out for a lot

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of different things, not just the
environment, a lot of times, not the

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environment, but looking out for a lot
of things like human rights and sort of

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international relations and so forth.

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So it could be a very complicated and
web-like system that you're like, Hey,

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I don't like what you're doing over here
with like, subsidizing the tuna fleet.

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But I really like you for standing
up for democracy or whatever you're

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doing and standing up for this.

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And so it becomes difficult when
you're looking at the overall picture.

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But when it comes to this, the
subsidy is really preventing just

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the collapse of the industry.

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So let's talk about not only just
the countries itself, but just the

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influence of the tuna industry and
the geopolitics and how this tuna

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fleet brings it all together.

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So the EU fleets fish in foreign
waters through access agreements.

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So, like I said before, you know,
the EU will pay those countries to

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get access, but then the EU fishing
fleets will go in there and fish.

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That's the benefit of
being part of the EU.

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The EU has all these relationships
with different countries and you

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can go in there and you can fish.

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These agreements are essentially
part of a broader diplomatic and

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economic relationships managed
by the EU, the European Union.

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That's what this really comes
down to, as I mentioned.

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So fishing is not just about fish anymore.

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It's about influence, presence, and
leverage within those countries.

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And I think that is, again, talking
to the complexities of how these

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things kind of get lost in the moment
or in the whole web-like structure of

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government relations, and I think it's
really difficult to kind of get out of.

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Subsidies lower costs
for the market, right?

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For the fleets, especially in fuel.

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This allows EU fleets to go
further and to compete with

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other lower cost global fleets.

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The distant fleet for China is probably
the biggest fishing fleet around.

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They go all over the world and it's
cheaper to let them go all over the

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world for China and like go and fish
and they come back with all these

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fish and Asian markets, European
markets, and every and other others.

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But it's a lower cost fishery.

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Right, because they don't have maybe
the same regulations or costs that

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are associated with their fleet.

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So subsidies protect position, not
necessarily the performance and

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the sustainability of the fishery.

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Now, of course, subsidies
have existed for decades.

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We know this in a lot of different
industries, oil and gas industry,

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and the fishing industry.

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Removing them creates immediate pain

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and also delayed benefits.

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So it's like when you put
in a marine protected area.

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Putting in the marine protected
area immediately takes away that

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area from being fished, if that's
what you're trying to protect.

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And so a lot of the fishing community is
like, well, I don't want to do that 'cause

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that gives me no access for at least three
or four years until this fishery rebuilds

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within this marine protected area.

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And we start to see a spillover
effect outside of the boundaries

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so that they can fish again.

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But they don't want to do
that because it's not as if

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they're making the big bucks.

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These are a lot of times
they're artisanal fishers.

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It's not industrial fishing.

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So they're just like,
why am I gonna do that?

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But then they see the benefits later on
and they're like, oh, I'm glad we had the

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short-term pain for the long-term gain.

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But it's very difficult to convince
fishers and anybody to go through

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that short term pain when you
in itself are not going through

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that pain, but the people are.

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And so the government has a
very difficult problem at hand

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to convince people to do that.

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So it's easier for governments
to just keep paying subsidies

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than to redesign the system.

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Know what government wants to be
the government to know, like they've

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taken away something from people
and caused people pain because

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that means they won't get back in.

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I would love for governments to start
just doing like, Hey, this is for the best

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of you guys, and even if we're gonna do
it, even if it costs us power later on.

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You'll never see a government do that.

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I would be very surprised if
we see a government do it.

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In fact, I would vote more for a
government who did that because

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they understand that politics is
not just about staying in power.

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Politics is about the people
and what's best for the people.

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And if that is part of like your
short term pain, if you're the

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short term pain part, well then
that's your, the short term pain.

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But you did a good thing to set
them up for better later on, right?

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So I think that is something
to keep an eye out for.

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But you won't see many
political parties do that.

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00:11:22,226 --> 00:11:24,476
So like why is all this, well, I'm
talking about all this, but why

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does it matter for sustainability?

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00:11:25,946 --> 00:11:27,686
That's really the question
when it comes down here.

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The subsidies enable longer
trips and higher fishing effort.

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So they can go out for longer.

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They can look around more for these
tuna to make sure that they catch them

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and they can catch as many as they can.

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This contributes to, of
course, the excess capacity.

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So the fact that they can go out further,
they can go out longer, they can fish

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more cause they don't have to pay as much
in fuel, that allows 'em to bring more

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back, but doesn't necessarily allow them
to get outta the grips or the tuna to

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get outta the grips from these fishers.

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They're able to fish longer.

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Economic pressure encourages cost cutting
elsewhere, including labor conditions.

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So not only are they going out
for longer, but people are away

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from their families for longer.

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People are away from land for longer.

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So they can go out for a couple
years or they can go for a year.

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Some boats will go out for years.

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And then the working conditions
become worse because think about it.

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When you're out on a fishing boat, you're
out on a boat for, like if you say you

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go out for two weeks or even a month
or even two months, or even six months,

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you're out for that boat for six months.

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You're not seeing your family.

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You're not on back on land.

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You're working probably seven days a week.

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12 hours a days, I'm sure in
some cases, maybe even more.

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00:12:25,531 --> 00:12:28,651
And so you don't get that
break, you don't get holidays.

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You don't get access to your
family after your nine to five,

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00:12:31,621 --> 00:12:33,451
like this is serious business.

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00:12:33,451 --> 00:12:36,361
And if you're out for longer
than a month or two, the working

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conditions get really worse.

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People make mistakes.

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00:12:38,311 --> 00:12:40,681
It can get dangerous, and some
people just don't even care.

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That's where you start to get
into a lot of labor laws being

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00:12:43,351 --> 00:12:46,831
broken in international waters
or even in national waters.

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00:12:46,917 --> 00:12:47,591
That could be a problem.

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A fleet that should scale
down, it never does.

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00:12:50,347 --> 00:12:53,827
But it should scale down, not only
for the fish, but also for the people.

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So artificial profitability delays
hard, but necessary changes.

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00:12:57,704 --> 00:12:59,889
That's a big thing with
this paper that's come out.

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00:13:00,101 --> 00:13:03,131
This creates tension when you're
looking at subsidies when

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00:13:03,131 --> 00:13:04,121
it comes to sustainability

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00:13:04,121 --> 00:13:04,601
messaging.

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00:13:04,754 --> 00:13:08,444
So many sustainability frameworks
focus on stock health and compliance.

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00:13:08,444 --> 00:13:10,394
So there are a number of different
organizations that are really

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00:13:10,394 --> 00:13:11,811
looking at science-based management.

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00:13:11,897 --> 00:13:13,217
They're looking at best practices.

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00:13:13,277 --> 00:13:17,997
How can we fish better, lower the bycatch,
catch, you know, tuna fish, but not

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00:13:17,997 --> 00:13:19,794
too much and still make it sustainable.

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00:13:19,884 --> 00:13:22,944
We're looking at very much the
science aspect, the life science

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00:13:22,944 --> 00:13:26,694
aspect of it, not necessarily the
economic science aspect of it.

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00:13:26,807 --> 00:13:30,632
So this paper shows that stock
health does not necessarily equal to

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00:13:30,632 --> 00:13:34,479
a healthy economic model because that
the economic model is propped up by

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00:13:34,479 --> 00:13:37,779
a subsidy that if it wasn't there,
it would like pretty much bottom

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00:13:37,779 --> 00:13:39,999
out the fishery in specific aspects.

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00:13:40,096 --> 00:13:44,026
So a fishery can follow the rules
and still be fundamentally broken.

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00:13:44,026 --> 00:13:47,672
So it can still look at sustainability
and compliance, but it could still

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00:13:47,672 --> 00:13:50,762
prop up something that probably
isn't that gonna be that sustainable

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00:13:50,762 --> 00:13:53,702
and is kind of contributing to
the unsustainable part of that.

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00:13:53,867 --> 00:13:57,137
So when we look at the risk
of the fishery, the public

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00:13:57,137 --> 00:13:58,697
money is absorbing the risk.

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00:13:58,697 --> 00:14:02,867
The subsidy is absorbing the risk to prop
up this fleet and saying, Hey, this is

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00:14:02,867 --> 00:14:04,884
actually profitable, but is it profitable?

314
00:14:04,884 --> 00:14:07,837
Maybe not for certain aspects of
it, but maybe the latter half of it.

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00:14:07,934 --> 00:14:10,434
The selling of tuna 'cause
selling tuna is pretty profitable.

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00:14:10,541 --> 00:14:14,201
So private companies still retain access
and market share, which is great for

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00:14:14,201 --> 00:14:15,941
them, but the public has to pay for that.

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00:14:16,054 --> 00:14:18,364
And environmental and social
costs remain externalized.

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00:14:18,364 --> 00:14:22,744
So the fact is, is like when we look at
public subsidies, so taxpayer money is

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00:14:22,744 --> 00:14:26,584
propping up an industry that would not
be there if there was no subsidy for it.

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00:14:26,691 --> 00:14:29,571
The political parties that are doing
this, the governments that are doing

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00:14:29,571 --> 00:14:31,941
this are doing this because they
don't wanna look bad and they don't

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00:14:31,941 --> 00:14:33,441
want the whole system to shut down.

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00:14:33,551 --> 00:14:36,611
And so if the system shuts down, they
probably won't get voted back in.

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00:14:36,611 --> 00:14:39,971
'cause a lot of people feel bad for people
losing their jobs and they, although a lot

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00:14:39,971 --> 00:14:43,751
of people don't want to pay for subsidies
to protect the environment, or that is

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00:14:43,751 --> 00:14:46,661
not protecting the environment, a lot of
people still want people to have jobs.

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00:14:46,737 --> 00:14:49,287
If that's a small payment for
that, which will be better.

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00:14:49,287 --> 00:14:53,277
But obviously the political parties that
are in power, they benefit from this.

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00:14:53,397 --> 00:14:57,537
The environmental social costs still
remain externalized obviously, and the

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00:14:57,537 --> 00:15:01,677
system looks stable only because taxpayers
and ecosystems pay the hidden cost.

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00:15:01,771 --> 00:15:02,671
That's the only reason.

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00:15:02,671 --> 00:15:05,881
That's what happens is these taxpayers
and ecosystems are paying the cost.

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00:15:06,054 --> 00:15:09,319
So the authors argue there's
need for change of this paper.

335
00:15:09,319 --> 00:15:11,839
So first they want to phase
out harmful subsidies.

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00:15:11,839 --> 00:15:15,139
So the subsidies that pay for fuel
exemptions, that's especially the

337
00:15:15,139 --> 00:15:16,189
ones that they wanna look after.

338
00:15:16,189 --> 00:15:18,859
Increase the transparency
around fleet economics.

339
00:15:18,859 --> 00:15:20,709
So make sure that people know about this.

340
00:15:20,809 --> 00:15:23,869
Align labor standards
with sustainability goals.

341
00:15:23,869 --> 00:15:26,599
So making sure that people are
being treated properly and the

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00:15:26,599 --> 00:15:29,089
fish are being treated properly,
like they're not being overfished.

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00:15:29,232 --> 00:15:29,982
That's really big.

344
00:15:30,089 --> 00:15:34,109
And of course, design policies that
reward resilience, not dependence.

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00:15:34,209 --> 00:15:37,176
So design the fishers that
actually change so that they

346
00:15:37,176 --> 00:15:38,526
don't have to rely on subsidies.

347
00:15:38,526 --> 00:15:41,136
They actually change, and they find
a way to pay for the fuel themselves.

348
00:15:41,136 --> 00:15:42,426
Pay for the access themselves.

349
00:15:42,522 --> 00:15:46,146
So sustainability must include
economics and ecosystems together.

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00:15:46,256 --> 00:15:47,927
That's a huge, huge thing.

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00:15:47,927 --> 00:15:50,987
And that's really the point of
this episode is to make sure that

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00:15:50,987 --> 00:15:55,517
sustainability includes economics,
people, and ecosystems altogether.

353
00:15:55,787 --> 00:15:57,784
That's gonna be a big part moving forward.

354
00:15:57,881 --> 00:16:02,241
I'd love to hear what you think about
what's gonna happen to this fishery.

355
00:16:02,326 --> 00:16:06,401
Do you think that these subsidies
should be removed or a change should

356
00:16:06,401 --> 00:16:08,231
happen or phased out at some point?

357
00:16:08,231 --> 00:16:10,481
'cause I think if you just remove
it, you're gonna get immediate

358
00:16:10,481 --> 00:16:13,151
pain and you're gonna see a lot
of people pissed off, essentially.

359
00:16:13,254 --> 00:16:16,104
Obviously we don't wanna see anybody
losing their jobs, but it's an interesting

360
00:16:16,104 --> 00:16:19,794
conundrum that they're in, phasing out
these harmful subsidies, especially the

361
00:16:19,794 --> 00:16:21,444
fuel exemptions is really important.

362
00:16:21,547 --> 00:16:24,517
Looking at the transparency, of
course around fleet economics

363
00:16:24,517 --> 00:16:27,067
and of course, aligning standards
and sustainability goals.

364
00:16:27,067 --> 00:16:28,447
I'd love to hear your
thoughts on all this.

365
00:16:28,447 --> 00:16:30,637
Let me know in the comments below
if you're watching this on YouTube.

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00:16:30,751 --> 00:16:32,761
If you're listening to this on your
favorite podcast app, you can go to

367
00:16:32,761 --> 00:16:38,641
speak up for blue.com/feedback to let
me know what you think of this episode.

368
00:16:38,641 --> 00:16:39,991
Love to have a dialogue with you.

369
00:16:40,091 --> 00:16:43,391
Of course, you can look at me up on
Instagram at How to Protect the ocean.

370
00:16:43,391 --> 00:16:45,017
Of course, anywhere else on TikTok.

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00:16:45,127 --> 00:16:46,087
I'm Speak up for Blue.

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00:16:46,201 --> 00:16:48,687
There's gonna be a bunch
of links in the show notes.

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00:16:48,787 --> 00:16:50,647
Love to hear from you
'cause that's what this is.

374
00:16:50,647 --> 00:16:53,647
This is opening up a conversation
so that we can continue it and

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00:16:53,647 --> 00:16:55,057
talk about more about fisheries.

376
00:16:55,207 --> 00:16:56,707
The next episode's gonna have fisheries.

377
00:16:56,707 --> 00:16:59,197
We're gonna be talking about
international fisheries, the High

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00:16:59,197 --> 00:17:01,837
Seas Treaty, and Squid Fisheries.

379
00:17:01,837 --> 00:17:04,147
We're gonna talk about that
on the next episode of the How

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00:17:04,147 --> 00:17:05,287
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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00:17:05,287 --> 00:17:06,817
But for now, thank you for joining me.

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00:17:06,817 --> 00:17:10,597
This has been another exciting episode
of the How to Protect the ocean Podcast.

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00:17:10,747 --> 00:17:13,057
I'm your host Andrew Lewin from
the true nor strong and free.

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00:17:13,057 --> 00:17:13,657
Have a great day.

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00:17:13,657 --> 00:17:15,967
We'll talk to you next time
and happy conservation.