Fisheries Subsidies Agreement Explained with Oceana's Dan Skeritt

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For the first time ever, the
World Trade Organization has

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a binding agreement to stop.

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Harmful subsidies that
drive over phishing, but not

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every country is on board.

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I sat down with Dan Scar from
Oceana, who's been following these

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negotiations for years to unpack
what this agreement actually means.

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We talked about how billions of
dollars in subsidies have propped up

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unsustainable fishing fleets, and why
some of the biggest fishing nations

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have yet to ratify the agreement.

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Dan gives a breakdown of subsidies,
the World Trade Organization.

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Why this is all important and what
we need to know about this agreement

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and how it's going to move forward.

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Now, as someone who's been covering
ocean issues for a long time, I can

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tell you this agreement feels like a
turning point, but it's also a test.

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Will countries follow through?

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And to be honest, that's up to
me and you we're gonna talk about

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all this on this episode of the
How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody.

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Welcome back to another exciting episode
of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and
this is the podcast where you find

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out what's happening with the ocean,
how you can speak up for the ocean,

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and what you can do to live for
a better ocean by taking action.

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Now on today's episode, we're
gonna be talking about subsidies.

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We're gonna be talking about the World
Trade Organizations new agreement.

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On fishery subsidies, how
to handle fishery subsidies.

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Now, subsidies is also a term that we're
gonna be discussing, why it's important

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that we need to know about this type of
term and why it's important and how it

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drives fisheries for a lot of countries,
we talk about harmful subsidies,

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we talk about beneficial subsidies.

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And we talk about how there's really
no legal framework of how to dole out

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these subsidies within each nation and
how there's not a lot of checks and

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balances when it comes out to being
like, are the fleets and companies

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who are receiving these subsidies?

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Are they actually following the law,
you know, and or are they making sure

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that these fleets are following the law?

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There's a lot of things that go on, and
as taxpayers, we don't like to fund stuff

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that doesn't follow the law or people
aren't, you know, in it for the best of

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the country that you're part of, right?

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As taxpayers, we don't want
to have to deal with that.

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We don't want to have to prop
up specific industries so that.

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You know, they can just
do whatever they want.

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That's not fair.

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That's not what these subsidies are for.

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These subsidies are to benefit not only
the industry, but also the citizens of

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that country, or part of the citizens
or part of that nation, of that country.

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And so I think it's really important
to have this type of agreement.

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But when you have this type of
agreement, as Dan mentions, there's

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a lot of context within that.

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There's a lot of legal frameworks
and legal words and phrases that

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are very difficult to understand.

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Spoiler, there are loopholes, and
Dan and I discuss that and we try

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to look at how to move forward with
this agreement and what it looks like

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in the impact we think it will have.

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So without further ado, here's Danker
talking about the World Trade Organization

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Agreement on fishery subsidies.

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Enjoy the interview and
I will talk to you after.

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Hey Dan, welcome back to the How
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about
the WTO subsidy agreement?

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Hi Andrew.

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Yeah, really happy to be back.

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Al always ready to talk about subsidy.

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Yep.

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Alright.

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This is great.

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This is something that, uh, it came
to be because you, you contacted

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me, like Andrew, I'm not sure if
you've heard, but there's a, a really

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great agreement that's coming out.

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This was last week when you contacted
me and I was like, okay, let's do this.

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We need to get this out.

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We're gonna be talking about fishery
subsidies and sort of the agreement

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that the WTO has come out and said.

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Hey, you know what?

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Like we need to establish some rules
here of who gets subsidies, who doesn't,

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and what countries can do when they
give out subsidies and what rules they

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have to abide by or they should abide
by based on a lot of expertise over

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the years and what we've learned over
the years about global fishing and

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even fishing within our own countries.

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I just wanna premise this.

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This is a great first step and
we're gonna celebrate that here.

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But this is a, the first step in a
long battle towards getting, you know,

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subsidies handled properly, especially
when it comes to illegal activities and

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the illegal fishing, uh, and everything
that goes around with overfishing.

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So Dan is super happy for you to be
here to, to help us break it all down

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and just really get to, to sort of the.

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All the information that's
given out in this agreement.

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So we really appreciate you being here.

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Before we get into all that though,
Dan, why don't you just remind

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the, uh, the, the audience here
of who you are and what you do?

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Yeah, sure.

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Uh, I'm Daniel Skerrett.

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I'm a senior manager in Oceania's
Science and Strategy, uh, group.

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We're kind of a bit like the
research and development team in,

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in Oceania, so we support all our
various country offices, but also do

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a bit of, you know, novel research.

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My particular area of research is on
international fisheries, so that's why I,

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I, I study things like fishery subsidies
as we're gonna talk, talk about today.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And it's gonna be, uh, it's gonna be
easy because like when, when we talk

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about what you, you know, you look are
on here to talk about and what your

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expertise is in it is a broad, uh, field,
you know, that you could go into a lot.

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We were just talking before we record
about technology and how to, to monitor

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better over phishing and to understand it
and to act on it and, and, and so forth.

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And then there's also like the policy
aspect of everything and how to.

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Get countries on board to an
agreement and to ratify these types

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of agreements that we're gonna talk
about today to put action into place.

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Because we can talk about it, we
can do a lot of research on it,

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and we can identify the problems.

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But until governments start to enact
these types of agreements and make sure

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that they put it in their own, uh, legal
context, nothing is gonna get done.

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And the more countries we get
to, to ratify this agreement

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and, and agree to this agreement,
then it's gonna be amazing.

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So.

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Let's get started here.

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Um, why don't we just break down,
you know, who the WTO is, why it's

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important that, that they come
up with this agreement and how

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this whole agreement came to be.

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Yeah.

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Uh, I'll try and give kind of
a, a brief history of that.

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So go into a lot of detail, Dan.

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Like we've got hours, we've got, yeah.

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And I, and just to caveat that I am,
I'm not a trade kind of expert, right.

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I, my background as we talked
about last time is in fisheries.

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Uh, I then studied fisheries economics
for quite a while, so I've been working

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on subsidies for almost 10 years, which in
the world of fishery subsidies is, is I'm,

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I'm, I'm very much a, a newcomer to it.

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Um, so, so I come from a kind of
economics background, but not, not a trade

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expert, but the world, the World Trade
Organization, um, was established, so it's

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based in Geneva and Switzerland, and it
was essentially established to try and.

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Organized trade, global trade, so to
try and usually to break down barriers

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to ensure like more free trade, so
any kind of barrier like tariffs and

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things like that, which obviously have
been in the news a lot at the moment.

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They're kind of the governing body
of that, that try and help facilitate

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easier trade around the world in
order to reduce poverty, I guess, or

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to improve, uh, you know, GDP in, in
various countries to connect the world.

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So, you know, if there's a trade
dispute that will go to wto.

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So, so that's their background.

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Fishery subs for the WTO is, is, is quite
an interesting topic because at the heart

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of it, although you know it's around
trade, it's around unequal competition

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or, or, or the kind of the distortion of
markets that fishery subsidies can have.

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This agreement at its heart has
sustainability, environmental

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sustainability, and so this is the
first time the WTO have really brought

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together an agreement that kind of
focuses on environmental sustainability.

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So.

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You know, it's quite, it's
quite a new thing for them.

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Uh, I say new.

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They started these negotiations in
2001 at their fourth ever ministerial

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conference in, in Doha, in Qatar.

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And so, and they agreed, they, the,
the, you know, the, the text of

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the agreement in 2022 in Geneva at
their 12th ministerial conference.

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So, uh, 21 years of, of talking and
negotiation to agree to the text of

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this first part, this fish one, and then
another three years after that for, for

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countries to kind of take that text away.

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Uh, to ratify into their own law
and for it to have come into a

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force, you know, just last week.

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So, uh, you know, please feel
free to ask any more questions.

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That's kind of a brief overview of
who the Wwo O are and what they do.

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Well, I just wanted one thing that I've
always, I'm always interested in as, as

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a science, a marine biologist myself.

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Uh, and, and, you know, you have the
best, you know, very similar background.

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Obviously, you've.

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PhD you've been studying fisheries
for, for quite some time.

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I was always of, you know, growing up
in this industry, I was in this field.

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I was always of the, the matter
of, it's interesting how, you know,

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certain organizations like the WTO,
like the Trade, the World Trade

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Organization, even ces, which is all
about trade, have such a huge impact on.

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What is traded and, and you
know, like fisheries traded

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and, and where the money goes.

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And as well, like with ces, like
what items cannot, cannot be brought

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past a specific border and so forth.

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And I find it interesting when we
discuss this type of work, uh, that

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fisheries itself, like when you look at
doing the fisheries models and looking

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at, okay, we have fisheries models.

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We are, we, we know what we can catch,
we know how much we can't catch.

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You know, we've setting the quota here.

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How come we need like world, the
world trade organization or society

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to regulate this trade when in my
opinion, science should be enough.

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So that's sort of where I'm at with this.

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Like I'd love to hear
your opinion on that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Uh, that's a, a great question and a
great point and a quite a frustrating

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right, you know, situation that
we see quite a lot for, for us.

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Um.

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I think, and there was a great,
um, article that just came out,

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uh, I saw yesterday about this.

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I think the issue part, part of the
issue is, you know, fisheries, although

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they are, you know, essentially this, so
you can see them in kind of two lights.

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And we, we were kind of talking about
this a little bit before we, before

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we start recording about depending
on the lens through which you see.

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You know, fisheries or this agreement.

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So, you know, a lot of us with a
fisheries background see it through a

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biological or an ecological lens, right?

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This extraction of these, of these
animals out of an out of the environment.

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And so, you know.

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Our models are often built around
that, around that idea of, of,

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you know, the population, how
much fishing can it, can it take?

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But obviously the other huge
part of it are the people and

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in, and in the case of industrial
fisheries, the businesses, right?

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That, that are, that are
extracting these resources.

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And if you see it from a kind of
economics or trade heavy lens or focus.

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You know, then your priorities
might be quite different or Yeah.

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Uh, you know, the goals that
you have for the fish, this

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fishery might be quite different.

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I mean, I think the frustration is that
many of us see that like, well, surely

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the first principle should be like,
you can't keep fishing if the bi, if

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the biological sustainability is, is
flawed, or you are, you're over fishing.

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Right.

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But, you know, I, I guess it becomes
very murky, especially with these

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international fisheries when there's all
this like competition and trade, you know?

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Um, I, I feel like that
can kind of add to it.

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So I think all these
elements are, are important.

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And I think, you know, fisheries as a
whole, so you need these kind of, mm-hmm.

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This economic understanding
and you need political will.

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I think that's the other important thing,
you know, when there's these resources

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out there that could be extracted,
especially when it's, you know, in

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other people's waters or the high seas.

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Right.

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Yeah, I think especially in the high seas,
you know, you can end up with this kind of

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race to fish and so, so I, I, I think it's
because probably there's, you know, it's

222
00:11:47,564 --> 00:11:51,705
a lot more complicated sadly, than simply
here's what the science and what the

223
00:11:51,705 --> 00:11:54,105
biology of this fishery says, you know?

224
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:54,980
And, and that's it.

225
00:11:54,980 --> 00:12:00,435
And you know, I guess this is the crux
of everything that was happening in

226
00:12:00,435 --> 00:12:05,625
the WCA for the last 20, 25 years,
was this political toing and throwing.

227
00:12:05,625 --> 00:12:08,415
I don't think there was
too much argument around.

228
00:12:09,135 --> 00:12:12,675
The scientific principles of
what was being discussed, right?

229
00:12:12,735 --> 00:12:16,125
It was the political, you
know, manifestation of that.

230
00:12:16,125 --> 00:12:18,525
Like how do we get an agreement
that we can all sign up to?

231
00:12:18,525 --> 00:12:19,645
And I think, you know.

232
00:12:20,145 --> 00:12:23,595
That's the frustration, but
I guess that's the reality of

233
00:12:23,595 --> 00:12:25,305
our, you know, current systems.

234
00:12:25,965 --> 00:12:27,255
Yeah, no, a hundred percent.

235
00:12:27,255 --> 00:12:31,725
I, I totally agree, and I, I, I wanted
to kind of put that out into the podcast

236
00:12:31,725 --> 00:12:35,475
sphere because I think it's something
that a lot of people look at as, as

237
00:12:35,475 --> 00:12:38,444
scientists, but also just from the
outside in, it'd be like, well, hold on.

238
00:12:38,444 --> 00:12:41,145
Why do we need all these different
measures and all these different tools?

239
00:12:41,324 --> 00:12:45,074
They are very important tools when
we look at fisheries management.

240
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:46,780
On a global scale.

241
00:12:46,810 --> 00:12:49,780
Uh, and so I'm glad we're, we're,
we're able to distinguish that.

242
00:12:49,780 --> 00:12:51,850
But that's something that's always
been kind of like, well, what,

243
00:12:51,939 --> 00:12:53,410
why is it the science just enough?

244
00:12:53,410 --> 00:12:54,160
So, yeah.

245
00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,520
I mean it's the same with, um, you
know, climate change science, right.

246
00:12:57,610 --> 00:13:00,850
You know, that's probably, that's probably
an even better example where there's even

247
00:13:00,939 --> 00:13:05,110
less uncertainty, you know, fish stock
assessments, you know, we we're pretty

248
00:13:05,110 --> 00:13:08,680
good at it, especially when we have a lot
of data, but there's always uncertainty.

249
00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:10,689
There's always like, you know,
you're trying to hit this.

250
00:13:11,100 --> 00:13:14,070
This, this, this single point
that we've kind of come up with

251
00:13:14,070 --> 00:13:15,300
of maximum sustainable yield.

252
00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:19,620
You know, there is a lot of uncertainty
in it and we try and as scientists we try

253
00:13:19,620 --> 00:13:21,540
and accommodate that and, and explain it.

254
00:13:21,990 --> 00:13:24,210
But in climate change there's
a lot less uncertainty.

255
00:13:24,210 --> 00:13:27,750
Yet still we see this, you
know, it seems so simple, right?

256
00:13:28,590 --> 00:13:29,550
Like what we have to do.

257
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:30,450
Yeah.

258
00:13:30,450 --> 00:13:33,840
Actually doing it apparently becomes
a lot less, a lot more complicated.

259
00:13:34,334 --> 00:13:35,265
Yeah, absolutely.

260
00:13:35,295 --> 00:13:39,704
Uh, before we get into more of this,
this agreement, can you just help

261
00:13:39,824 --> 00:13:44,594
explain how subsidies work and, and you
know, obviously it doesn't have to go

262
00:13:44,594 --> 00:13:48,045
into the great detail 'cause it's, it's
different for each country, but this is

263
00:13:48,045 --> 00:13:52,785
a big part of this agreement be, and,
and the big argument around overfishing

264
00:13:52,785 --> 00:13:54,735
is like, we need to stop subsidizing.

265
00:13:55,185 --> 00:13:59,265
Uh, certain fisheries or certain types of
fishing because it's, it's perpetuating

266
00:13:59,325 --> 00:14:02,025
the overfishing problem that we have.

267
00:14:02,055 --> 00:14:06,375
So can you just kind of go into a, a
description for my, for the audience

268
00:14:06,375 --> 00:14:09,645
to be like, Hey, like what is subsidies
and, and why is it important to

269
00:14:09,645 --> 00:14:11,295
have certain regulations around it?

270
00:14:11,835 --> 00:14:13,005
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

271
00:14:13,064 --> 00:14:18,915
And you know, there's, there's, there's
various, um, versions of the, of

272
00:14:18,915 --> 00:14:22,455
definitions of, of water, a subsidy,
and especially a fishery subsidy.

273
00:14:22,665 --> 00:14:23,985
I'm gonna take the wto.

274
00:14:24,375 --> 00:14:28,245
Definition and that's generally all my
work kind of is based on that because

275
00:14:28,785 --> 00:14:32,505
these, you know, because of this agreement
and the negotiations of this agreement,

276
00:14:32,925 --> 00:14:38,535
so from the WTOs point of view, a subsidy
kind of needs, needs three elements.

277
00:14:38,625 --> 00:14:41,985
So it's a direct or
indirect financial transfer.

278
00:14:42,045 --> 00:14:45,795
So direct essentially, you
know, here's some money.

279
00:14:45,825 --> 00:14:49,005
Indirect is like, maybe you don't
owe me that money you owed me before.

280
00:14:49,005 --> 00:14:50,895
So it's a transfer of of wealth.

281
00:14:51,525 --> 00:14:55,905
The second part is it, it has to
come from a government or a public

282
00:14:55,905 --> 00:14:58,335
body and go to the private industry.

283
00:14:58,725 --> 00:15:01,185
So it's, it, it is government,
it is public to private,

284
00:15:01,425 --> 00:15:02,895
indirect or direct transfer.

285
00:15:03,194 --> 00:15:06,885
And then that, that transfer has to, uh,
you know, confer some kind of benefit.

286
00:15:07,665 --> 00:15:11,865
Um, you know, historically there's a lot
of reasons why governments might do that.

287
00:15:12,165 --> 00:15:16,245
You might want to, um, incentivize the
development of a particular sector.

288
00:15:16,590 --> 00:15:19,800
So we hear a lot about, um, you
know, subsidies for offshore

289
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:21,030
renewable energy, for example.

290
00:15:21,030 --> 00:15:21,120
Mm-hmm.

291
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,600
I mean, we also provide subsidies
for offshore oil and gas, but

292
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:25,650
that's a different conversation.

293
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,010
So you might want to, you might want to
incentivize the development of sector that

294
00:15:29,010 --> 00:15:32,565
maybe is quite, you know, costly at the
beginning of that, of that development.

295
00:15:33,390 --> 00:15:37,740
Um, you might want to, um,
address social equity issues.

296
00:15:37,740 --> 00:15:41,610
So you may want to prop up the way,
support the wages of certain, you

297
00:15:41,610 --> 00:15:45,540
know, sectors of society, for example,
or particular jobs that, that maybe,

298
00:15:45,780 --> 00:15:47,069
you know, are really important.

299
00:15:47,730 --> 00:15:51,990
We need to kind of, uh, subsidize the
wages there to encourage people into it,

300
00:15:51,990 --> 00:15:53,939
for example, like health workers maybe.

301
00:15:54,510 --> 00:15:57,630
And then, uh, the other one that
we're talking about today is to

302
00:15:57,930 --> 00:16:01,140
address conservation, um, concerns.

303
00:16:01,140 --> 00:16:01,470
So.

304
00:16:01,890 --> 00:16:06,840
In the UK for example, a lot of farmers
might get paid to not farm up to the edge

305
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:12,750
of a river or to leave certain fields
to, to go, uh, you know, to go wild or

306
00:16:12,775 --> 00:16:14,790
to, to kind of have this crop rotation.

307
00:16:14,820 --> 00:16:14,910
Mm-hmm.

308
00:16:15,150 --> 00:16:18,330
And the government might give them
money, so, so they benefit and

309
00:16:18,330 --> 00:16:21,570
then we benefit from this like
additional conservation benefit.

310
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:21,720
Mm-hmm.

311
00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:22,775
So there's a lot of different.

312
00:16:23,380 --> 00:16:24,430
Reasons why.

313
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,230
Um, another key reason it's often actually
unspoken is this competition element.

314
00:16:29,710 --> 00:16:32,680
You know, particularly in fisheries,
if we're all targeting the same tuna

315
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,820
stocks, well, if, you know, if we, if we,
if we help out the cost of our fishing

316
00:16:36,820 --> 00:16:40,630
fleet, they might do a bit of a better
job or, or manage to get a bit more

317
00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:44,950
of that, of that fish or sell the fish
cheaper access certain markets, right?

318
00:16:45,070 --> 00:16:49,360
So, you know, so there's, there's stated
reasons or drivers of subsidies, and

319
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:50,440
then there might be hidden ones as well.

320
00:16:50,775 --> 00:16:50,834
Yeah.

321
00:16:52,125 --> 00:16:56,715
In, in the case of fisheries, um, you
know, the harm that they can cause

322
00:16:56,985 --> 00:17:00,074
as, as I said earlier, they can cause
what we call trade injuries, which

323
00:17:00,285 --> 00:17:02,265
the WT o have largely been focused on.

324
00:17:02,265 --> 00:17:03,255
That's, you know.

325
00:17:04,214 --> 00:17:07,710
Steel from One Nation is being
subsidized, so is really cheap and,

326
00:17:07,714 --> 00:17:09,405
and changes the market, you know?

327
00:17:09,615 --> 00:17:09,704
Mm-hmm.

328
00:17:09,944 --> 00:17:13,454
The wt a might step in and be like,
you shouldn't subsidize that so

329
00:17:13,454 --> 00:17:14,595
you can get these trade injuries.

330
00:17:14,595 --> 00:17:18,135
But in fisheries we get what we
call this capacity enhancing effect,

331
00:17:18,165 --> 00:17:20,925
and that's the ones that we kind of
call harmful fisheries subsidies.

332
00:17:21,525 --> 00:17:25,545
And what that is, is it's basically that
that subsidy the government give is,

333
00:17:25,545 --> 00:17:30,345
is, is lowering the cost of phishing and
by or, or increasing their profits, but

334
00:17:30,345 --> 00:17:31,815
let's say lowering the cost efficient.

335
00:17:32,175 --> 00:17:36,615
By doing that, what we end up with
is, is is it results in over capacity.

336
00:17:36,615 --> 00:17:40,485
So each fishing vessel or the
fleet as a whole essentially gets

337
00:17:40,995 --> 00:17:44,655
too big for this, for what the
fishing the fish stock can handle.

338
00:17:45,195 --> 00:17:45,285
Mm-hmm.

339
00:17:45,524 --> 00:17:49,875
So like really simply, you have too
many boats chasing too few fish.

340
00:17:49,875 --> 00:17:50,115
Right?

341
00:17:50,385 --> 00:17:50,504
Right.

342
00:17:51,254 --> 00:17:55,335
Instead of like in what you might call
the free market, you know, situation,

343
00:17:55,695 --> 00:17:59,475
some of those vessels might drop out or
go bust 'cause there's not enough fish.

344
00:17:59,535 --> 00:18:01,430
You know, I can't make
profit, I have to leave.

345
00:18:02,340 --> 00:18:07,080
But if you start reducing the cost of
fishing or, or, or, you know, reducing

346
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:11,639
the cost of fuel, for example, you kind
of maintain this fishing fleet at a scale

347
00:18:11,639 --> 00:18:15,689
at size, that, that wouldn't actually
exist based on either the size of the

348
00:18:15,689 --> 00:18:17,310
stock or the economics of the fishery.

349
00:18:17,790 --> 00:18:22,770
So we kind of are to fisher hold these
fleets, you know, uh, size that, that we

350
00:18:22,770 --> 00:18:24,330
wouldn't really see without the substance.

351
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:26,310
And that's over capacity.

352
00:18:26,790 --> 00:18:29,639
And when you have over capacity,
it tends to lead to overfishing.

353
00:18:30,210 --> 00:18:32,910
Yes, you can have really strict
rules in there that prevent that.

354
00:18:32,910 --> 00:18:37,710
But you know, the science kind of shows
that that doesn't always happen, as we

355
00:18:37,710 --> 00:18:39,030
talked about just a minute ago, right?

356
00:18:39,030 --> 00:18:42,180
You can have these stock
assessments say Only take X tons.

357
00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:42,960
Yeah.

358
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,130
But it's even harder when you've got boats
and you know, a lot of a huge inflated

359
00:18:47,130 --> 00:18:48,660
industry on this particular fishery.

360
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:49,945
Maybe saying like, you know.

361
00:18:50,895 --> 00:18:53,655
We need more tons because otherwise
we're not gonna be able to pay all

362
00:18:53,655 --> 00:18:57,105
these work, you know, hundreds of
thousands of workers potentially.

363
00:18:57,315 --> 00:19:01,065
Yeah, so, so that's kind of the issue
we have here is this economic tool.

364
00:19:01,590 --> 00:19:05,250
That actually then ends up having
the ecological impact by, by,

365
00:19:05,250 --> 00:19:11,159
by creating a, a, a bloated
fishing industry with subsidies.

366
00:19:11,219 --> 00:19:15,360
Have you seen models where there's
alternative to subsidies or alternative

367
00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:20,939
to subsidies proposed that might work
better or have worked better in the past?

368
00:19:21,689 --> 00:19:22,379
Yeah, I mean.

369
00:19:23,205 --> 00:19:27,915
So, you know, generally we have these kind
of three categories of fishery subsidies.

370
00:19:27,915 --> 00:19:31,335
So I thought there a lot about these
harmful capacity enhancing subsidies,

371
00:19:31,725 --> 00:19:33,285
but we also have beneficial subsidies.

372
00:19:33,675 --> 00:19:36,290
You know, that's a bit like the
example I gave you of the, the farmer.

373
00:19:37,064 --> 00:19:41,145
Who might be getting paid to, to leave
some, you know, not, not farm right

374
00:19:41,145 --> 00:19:44,205
up to the edge of a river, to, to,
to ensure the river stays healthier.

375
00:19:44,715 --> 00:19:46,304
You know, that's a beneficial subsidy.

376
00:19:46,574 --> 00:19:51,705
We have that in fisheries too, you know,
um, that might be to, to, to pay fishes,

377
00:19:51,705 --> 00:19:57,195
not to fish in a particular area or to
use to, to help fund the replacement

378
00:19:57,195 --> 00:20:00,764
of certain gear that they have to a
more environmentally friendly gear.

379
00:20:01,504 --> 00:20:04,445
And then we have these ones we
call ambiguous, which is like, we

380
00:20:04,445 --> 00:20:05,915
don't really know what affects it.

381
00:20:05,915 --> 00:20:08,885
It might depend who you give
it to or how you apply it.

382
00:20:08,885 --> 00:20:11,645
So they're kind of a
gray area, but, right.

383
00:20:11,645 --> 00:20:14,794
Let's think we have these harmful
and we have these beneficial, you

384
00:20:14,794 --> 00:20:18,875
know, a lot of the times when, when
I'm advocating for removing harmful

385
00:20:18,875 --> 00:20:23,375
subsidies, and this is a point I try
and really emphasize, especially to,

386
00:20:23,435 --> 00:20:25,145
to, you know, my industry colleagues.

387
00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:29,700
Is, I'm not saying stop funding fishing,
you know, don't invest in fisheries.

388
00:20:29,925 --> 00:20:32,310
I, I want to see money
being spent on fisheries.

389
00:20:32,315 --> 00:20:32,445
Yes.

390
00:20:32,490 --> 00:20:33,360
I think it's vital.

391
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:34,860
I'd like to see more money spent on it.

392
00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:39,000
I just don't want to see it spent
in a way that incentivizes over

393
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:40,860
capacity and leads to overfishing.

394
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:41,280
Right?

395
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,210
Like, let's find beneficial ways
that we can invest in our fishing

396
00:20:45,210 --> 00:20:48,780
fleets to try and, yeah, make
them more efficient without.

397
00:20:49,185 --> 00:20:53,415
Adding capacity or to help, like,
boost the amount of fish available

398
00:20:53,415 --> 00:20:57,705
or, you know, lower the impact it has
on the rest of the, um, ecosystem.

399
00:20:58,185 --> 00:21:02,085
So a lot of this, you know, we,
what we hope this agreement might

400
00:21:02,085 --> 00:21:05,565
achieve is a reduction in harmful
subsidies, but really want, we

401
00:21:05,565 --> 00:21:09,885
wanna see that then, you know, spent
elsewhere in, in a beneficial format.

402
00:21:10,575 --> 00:21:11,655
Yeah, a hundred percent.

403
00:21:11,655 --> 00:21:13,125
I think that's, I think
that's really great.

404
00:21:13,125 --> 00:21:16,845
And, and a lot of these subsidies
are coming from tax dollars, right?

405
00:21:16,845 --> 00:21:20,745
They're coming from the budget of the
government that's largely funded by tax.

406
00:21:20,865 --> 00:21:24,794
It could be funded by other, other sources
depending on where this money comes from,

407
00:21:24,794 --> 00:21:26,774
but it's largely funded by tax dollars.

408
00:21:26,774 --> 00:21:30,705
So some people, citizens, I know here
in Canada we're always like, why are we

409
00:21:30,705 --> 00:21:36,345
funding, you know, like big time for big,
uh, a problem for, for Canada or a big

410
00:21:36,465 --> 00:21:38,655
contentious issue is, you know, funding.

411
00:21:38,909 --> 00:21:40,530
Oil and gas subsidies here, right?

412
00:21:40,530 --> 00:21:42,270
So people are like, why are we doing this?

413
00:21:42,270 --> 00:21:43,649
I don't want to do this.

414
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,030
Um, even though it's like, it's, it's a
necessity when you look at, you know, oil

415
00:21:48,030 --> 00:21:52,260
and gas and the benefits usually outweigh
the, the subsidies that we have to pay.

416
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,560
Um, but a lot of people.

417
00:21:55,935 --> 00:21:59,565
We'll say that, you know, we'll be
like, why are we funding If, if they

418
00:21:59,565 --> 00:22:02,955
want to decrease over phishing, why
are we funding, you know, subsidies

419
00:22:02,955 --> 00:22:04,845
for, for phishing in general?

420
00:22:05,175 --> 00:22:09,195
But it's not necessarily, not all
subsidies are going to encourage.

421
00:22:09,630 --> 00:22:12,540
Uh, overfishing or illegal
fishing, that that's not what

422
00:22:12,540 --> 00:22:13,830
the subsidy iss for, correct.

423
00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:17,700
Like the, the subsidy is for, you
know, the agreement, I assume with the

424
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:21,150
people who who are receiving and the
companies who are receiving the subsidy

425
00:22:21,150 --> 00:22:26,370
is to do legal fishing under the law
of that country and not to do that.

426
00:22:26,370 --> 00:22:29,190
I know that sounds stupid to say
that as I say that, I'm like, Andrew,

427
00:22:29,190 --> 00:22:30,300
why are we talking about this?

428
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,750
But I want people to really understand
the purpose of a subsidy is to.

429
00:22:34,755 --> 00:22:39,555
Help that with the industry benefit not
only the citizens, but also that, that

430
00:22:39,555 --> 00:22:45,765
industry, um, but also to contribute to
the legal phishing of a, a specific stock.

431
00:22:45,765 --> 00:22:46,155
Correct?

432
00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:47,630
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

433
00:22:47,870 --> 00:22:51,190
I mean, I, I don't think
that many subs are, are.

434
00:22:52,290 --> 00:22:57,150
You know, dished out with that kind
of, with environmental destruction in

435
00:22:57,150 --> 00:23:02,430
mind and, and also, you know, a lot
of the, kind of the drivers of, of, of

436
00:23:02,430 --> 00:23:04,140
maybe providing this, these subsidies.

437
00:23:04,620 --> 00:23:07,890
You know, again, as you say, it's not to
encourage legal fishing or overfishing.

438
00:23:07,890 --> 00:23:10,770
You know, in many cases these
governments are probably trying to

439
00:23:11,070 --> 00:23:17,130
support a lot of jobs that may be, you
know, um, may be, um, in the balance.

440
00:23:17,130 --> 00:23:19,470
You know, the, the, the, a lot
of these jobs, they're not.

441
00:23:19,965 --> 00:23:23,534
You can't predict year on year,
you know, how, how secure they are.

442
00:23:23,564 --> 00:23:27,284
'cause they're based on, you know, weather
and, and, and the biology of the fishery.

443
00:23:27,284 --> 00:23:30,735
So, you know, I think, I think some of
the subsidies are provided with intentions

444
00:23:30,735 --> 00:23:35,294
like that also, you know, although we've
talked a lot about the, the business of

445
00:23:35,294 --> 00:23:39,195
fishing and that element of it ultimately
is also producing a food source.

446
00:23:39,195 --> 00:23:39,465
Right?

447
00:23:39,465 --> 00:23:45,135
And again, we see a lot of subsidies being
spent on, you know, uh, food production.

448
00:23:46,650 --> 00:23:50,700
A big argument around that is food
security, sadly, that again, that doesn't

449
00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:55,260
always actually kind of, um, add up when
you look at the end result in that we're

450
00:23:55,260 --> 00:23:59,905
subsidizing a lot of phishing vessels,
you know, in the EU or the uk where,

451
00:24:00,090 --> 00:24:01,500
where the fish actually goes elsewhere.

452
00:24:01,530 --> 00:24:04,230
Like, you know, it's not
supporting food security in the uk.

453
00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:08,430
So, you know, it is a really
complicated system and.

454
00:24:10,155 --> 00:24:13,605
A lot of kind of, what we do is, and
what this agreement should be doing is,

455
00:24:13,605 --> 00:24:17,655
is trying to reveal, you know, what is
the actual result of this subsidization?

456
00:24:17,955 --> 00:24:21,465
And when we do that, can we have a, you
know, better, more informed discussion

457
00:24:21,465 --> 00:24:25,905
about, okay, what are the intentions of
these subs and what is the actual outcome?

458
00:24:25,935 --> 00:24:29,115
You know, are, are we seeing,
are we achieving what we, what

459
00:24:29,115 --> 00:24:30,435
we say we're gonna do with this?

460
00:24:30,615 --> 00:24:34,155
Are we actually achieving, you know,
environmental degradation at home?

461
00:24:34,230 --> 00:24:37,500
Or taxpayers' money is being used
to, you know, it's resulting in

462
00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:41,370
environmental degradation and food
security for, you know, another nation.

463
00:24:42,450 --> 00:24:45,120
You know, if that's a result, like,
is this the best way to do this?

464
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:46,440
Is there a better way we can do this?

465
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,490
So yeah, the intention is very
rarely, I would say, if, if

466
00:24:50,490 --> 00:24:52,410
ever, to fund over phishing.

467
00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:53,370
Right?

468
00:24:54,335 --> 00:24:57,900
But as I say, when, when the, when
the, when the data and the science

469
00:24:58,470 --> 00:25:02,070
says that's what's happening, I think
there needs to be a reconsideration of.

470
00:25:02,145 --> 00:25:04,215
Of how we, how, how we're funding that.

471
00:25:04,845 --> 00:25:06,615
Of course, here and, sorry.

472
00:25:07,004 --> 00:25:07,510
No, no, go ahead.

473
00:25:07,510 --> 00:25:08,030
No, please do.

474
00:25:08,030 --> 00:25:08,350
Go ahead.

475
00:25:08,350 --> 00:25:11,205
Uh, just to emphasize, again,
not saying don't fund it.

476
00:25:11,205 --> 00:25:13,275
Not saying take the money
out, just of course, let's

477
00:25:13,275 --> 00:25:14,535
find a better way to spend it.

478
00:25:14,535 --> 00:25:14,835
Right?

479
00:25:15,315 --> 00:25:15,975
Well and income.

480
00:25:15,975 --> 00:25:18,645
This incomes this, this
WTO agreement, right?

481
00:25:18,645 --> 00:25:21,225
This World Trade
Organization agreement where.

482
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,470
This is like a, a, a, essentially
like a, a framework that countries

483
00:25:25,470 --> 00:25:28,949
can use to implement into their
own legal, uh, you know, legal

484
00:25:28,949 --> 00:25:31,050
structure to say, Hey, you know what?

485
00:25:31,050 --> 00:25:34,560
This is a great way to go forward
based on a lot of research that's

486
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,740
been done, a lot of expertise
that's been, uh, put together.

487
00:25:38,010 --> 00:25:39,600
This is what we recommend.

488
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,699
How you sort of, you know, put in
the rules to put in subsidies or

489
00:25:44,730 --> 00:25:48,750
not give subsidies to specific,
uh, fleets who are not abiding

490
00:25:48,750 --> 00:25:50,760
by the laws, not only of the sea.

491
00:25:51,290 --> 00:25:55,160
Also by their own country, which for a lot
of countries who have signed onto the, to

492
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,320
the UN Law of the Sea is the same thing.

493
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:57,590
Right?

494
00:25:57,590 --> 00:26:00,020
So, um, you know, I think
that's, that's really important

495
00:26:00,020 --> 00:26:01,040
coming into this agreement.

496
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,700
So I want to, to get that the, the
reasoning why we're putting in this for

497
00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:06,560
a lot of our, our audience members here.

498
00:26:06,830 --> 00:26:10,640
Um, and because this is all stuff we all
had to learn, you know, in terms of what's

499
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,760
been happening with these subsidies,
how does this continue to happen?

500
00:26:14,030 --> 00:26:17,840
Um, in many countries it does get a little
outta hand sometimes, uh, you know, in

501
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,460
terms of illegal phishing as we've seen.

502
00:26:19,730 --> 00:26:20,300
Um, and so.

503
00:26:20,865 --> 00:26:22,935
Let's talk about this, this agreement.

504
00:26:22,935 --> 00:26:23,025
Mm-hmm.

505
00:26:23,275 --> 00:26:28,335
How important is this as a first step
to the battle of really reducing and

506
00:26:28,335 --> 00:26:32,385
hopefully one day eliminating, uh, you
know, over phishing and illegal fishing?

507
00:26:33,225 --> 00:26:36,885
Yeah, I mean, as we said at the beginning,
it's really important, you know, we

508
00:26:36,885 --> 00:26:39,135
are celebrating this, this agreement.

509
00:26:39,255 --> 00:26:42,555
Um, you know, and we'll, we'll talk
about this and we'll probably talk

510
00:26:42,555 --> 00:26:45,495
about it right now actually, about
how this is just the first step.

511
00:26:45,495 --> 00:26:48,885
This was never intended to be the
kind of the end of this discussion.

512
00:26:49,095 --> 00:26:50,020
This is, um, you know, it's.

513
00:26:50,985 --> 00:26:53,295
A lot of us are calling it,
referring to it as Fish one.

514
00:26:53,715 --> 00:26:57,075
Fish Two is being negotiated right now,
and we can maybe come onto that later.

515
00:26:57,585 --> 00:26:59,175
But yeah, I mean it's
incredibly important.

516
00:26:59,175 --> 00:27:05,540
What it does at the moment is it, it
first tackles the worst kind of it,

517
00:27:05,545 --> 00:27:08,595
it tackles where these subsidies,
who these subsidies are going to.

518
00:27:08,595 --> 00:27:13,365
It doesn't yet tackle subsidies because of
the nature of certain subsidies being bad.

519
00:27:13,545 --> 00:27:15,585
It tackles who these subsidies
go to, like we said earlier.

520
00:27:15,585 --> 00:27:15,705
Mm-hmm.

521
00:27:16,365 --> 00:27:20,145
So what it does is these ratifying
members, I think there's 112 now.

522
00:27:20,910 --> 00:27:26,820
Are now bound by law to, to stop providing
subsidies to, um, any illegal fishing.

523
00:27:27,510 --> 00:27:31,085
Um, you know, the, who determines
whether it's legal fishing or not.

524
00:27:31,725 --> 00:27:34,274
We'll see how that actually
plays out in reality.

525
00:27:34,635 --> 00:27:38,895
Um, at the moment, from from the text,
it says it's either the, the, the vessel

526
00:27:38,895 --> 00:27:42,555
that, the, the flag state that, you
know, the, the vessel is fishing under.

527
00:27:42,610 --> 00:27:43,030
Mm-hmm.

528
00:27:43,274 --> 00:27:47,475
The coastal state where the vessel is
fishing, or if they're fishing in the

529
00:27:47,475 --> 00:27:50,805
jurisdiction of an RFMO, a regional
fisheries management organization, you

530
00:27:51,345 --> 00:27:54,675
know, they can determine, so they're the
three, the three groups, the entities

531
00:27:54,675 --> 00:27:56,865
who can determine it's illegal phishing.

532
00:27:57,405 --> 00:27:57,495
Right.

533
00:27:57,915 --> 00:28:00,105
At the moment, we have, you know, all the.

534
00:28:00,719 --> 00:28:05,699
Kind of official lists of IUU, um,
vessels in the world, I think at the

535
00:28:05,699 --> 00:28:07,740
moment adds up to about 230 vessels.

536
00:28:07,830 --> 00:28:07,860
Okay.

537
00:28:08,610 --> 00:28:12,300
So hopefully there'll be a, you know, a
more stringent way of, of actually doing.

538
00:28:12,330 --> 00:28:15,090
'cause if it's only 230 vessels that
are gonna have subsidies pulled,

539
00:28:15,449 --> 00:28:19,350
you know, it's not gonna make a huge
dent in the 22 billion of harmful

540
00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:20,610
subsidies currently provided.

541
00:28:21,855 --> 00:28:26,385
The sec, the second prohibit, prohibition,
prohibition that it, that it has is

542
00:28:26,385 --> 00:28:31,695
it stops, uh, subsidies to phishing
on overfish stocks, which again,

543
00:28:32,415 --> 00:28:36,165
sounds really strong on paper, has the
potential to be really strong on paper.

544
00:28:36,675 --> 00:28:40,455
The entity that determines whether
the stock is overfished is the

545
00:28:40,815 --> 00:28:43,035
country who, whose waters it's in.

546
00:28:43,095 --> 00:28:44,550
So it's kind of marking your own homework.

547
00:28:45,465 --> 00:28:48,705
There, there's also a bit of a
loophole that says, you know, if you

548
00:28:48,705 --> 00:28:51,915
have management measures in place
that you know, show that it's gonna,

549
00:28:52,305 --> 00:28:55,635
that that are aimed to rebuild the
stock, then you can keep subsidizing.

550
00:28:55,965 --> 00:29:00,225
And again, it's a subsidizing member
that can be like, yeah, it's over

551
00:29:00,225 --> 00:29:04,395
fished, but you know, we've got these
management measures in place that aim to

552
00:29:04,395 --> 00:29:06,555
rebuild it so we can keep subsidizing.

553
00:29:07,155 --> 00:29:08,955
So, you know, again.

554
00:29:09,929 --> 00:29:11,610
It's a really great first step.

555
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:12,120
Mm-hmm.

556
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,080
Hopefully over, you know, over the
course of implementation, we can

557
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,935
really tighten the kind of nut on
that and be like, you know, yeah,

558
00:29:18,995 --> 00:29:20,550
no, you haven't rebuilt the stock.

559
00:29:20,550 --> 00:29:21,510
Stop subsidizing it.

560
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:22,409
Right.

561
00:29:22,409 --> 00:29:25,679
And then the last one is, is, is,
is, um, subsidies to phishing on

562
00:29:25,679 --> 00:29:27,300
the unregulated high seas, which.

563
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,689
It is a small fraction of
kind of global fisheries.

564
00:29:30,689 --> 00:29:33,780
You know, most fisheries are in
coastal waters, but it's quite an

565
00:29:33,780 --> 00:29:38,250
important one because that's the
fishing, uh, activity that basically

566
00:29:38,250 --> 00:29:39,510
is, you know, the wild west.

567
00:29:39,510 --> 00:29:42,330
There's very little,
very few rules on that.

568
00:29:42,330 --> 00:29:45,419
So, you know, probably shouldn't
be, um, subsidizing that.

569
00:29:45,419 --> 00:29:48,324
So they're the kind of three main
prohibitions that, that it includes.

570
00:29:49,215 --> 00:29:52,665
As I said, there's, there's,
you know, loopholes and, and

571
00:29:52,875 --> 00:29:54,764
we'll see how it's implemented.

572
00:29:55,034 --> 00:29:57,735
There's a couple of really strong
articles in there that I like.

573
00:29:58,330 --> 00:29:58,750
Mm-hmm.

574
00:29:58,830 --> 00:30:01,245
Um, there's an article on,
you know, transparency.

575
00:30:01,245 --> 00:30:05,534
So WTA members are now gonna have
to be a lot more stringent in the

576
00:30:05,534 --> 00:30:09,135
information they give to the WTO every
year on the subsidies they provide,

577
00:30:09,465 --> 00:30:11,804
who they go to, what fish stocks are.

578
00:30:11,804 --> 00:30:14,145
They kind of, are these
subsidies impacting?

579
00:30:14,415 --> 00:30:15,975
You know, that's a really great step.

580
00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:20,310
In the nine years I've been doing
this research, there's often, you

581
00:30:20,310 --> 00:30:24,120
know, quite poor data and we're
often filling gaps in with, with

582
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,290
kind of models or, or, or, you know,
through, through poorer data sources.

583
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,630
Um, and then, and then another one is, is,
is this article that allows member states

584
00:30:33,630 --> 00:30:35,490
to basically hold each other accountable.

585
00:30:35,940 --> 00:30:38,795
And that's the one that I think could
be really key to the success of this is.

586
00:30:39,615 --> 00:30:43,665
How well will each of our, these members
be able to hold each other to account to

587
00:30:43,665 --> 00:30:45,885
say, you know, show us you're working.

588
00:30:45,885 --> 00:30:48,975
Prove to us that, you know,
these management measures are

589
00:30:49,155 --> 00:30:50,385
helping to rebuild the stock.

590
00:30:50,805 --> 00:30:55,365
And again, I, I think also that's prob
probably where civil society comes in.

591
00:30:55,455 --> 00:30:59,085
You know, trying to work with, with
different members to, you know, to

592
00:30:59,085 --> 00:31:02,805
ask for this information or to, to,
to, you know, to get them to kind of.

593
00:31:03,225 --> 00:31:03,795
Show us.

594
00:31:03,795 --> 00:31:05,985
Yeah, show us what
subsidies are you providing?

595
00:31:06,225 --> 00:31:08,955
Like what subsidies are going to
these distant water fishing fleets,

596
00:31:08,955 --> 00:31:12,375
or which fisheries are you, are
you subsidizing in your waters?

597
00:31:12,675 --> 00:31:14,385
And I think that could be
a really key part to it.

598
00:31:14,625 --> 00:31:16,665
Yeah, I think it's really, I
think it's really important.

599
00:31:16,665 --> 00:31:17,845
The question with that, so you have.

600
00:31:18,764 --> 00:31:20,205
WTO members.

601
00:31:20,324 --> 00:31:25,274
Uh, and there are 166 WT members
as of, uh, July 17th, 2024.

602
00:31:25,274 --> 00:31:25,995
I just looked it up.

603
00:31:25,995 --> 00:31:29,685
Kimura is, is the, the last country
to, to join, which is great.

604
00:31:29,685 --> 00:31:34,304
So you have these WTO members who have
to, uh, abide by this transparency

605
00:31:34,304 --> 00:31:39,254
rules when they, when they report to
the WTO, which is, which is great.

606
00:31:39,254 --> 00:31:42,074
So it's almost separate of
whether they ratified or not, if

607
00:31:42,074 --> 00:31:43,844
they want to be part of the WTO.

608
00:31:44,264 --> 00:31:47,774
They have to submit to this
transparency rule for phishing.

609
00:31:47,774 --> 00:31:50,805
Is, is that, am I getting that
right or do they still have to

610
00:31:50,805 --> 00:31:52,485
ratify this agreement to do that?

611
00:31:53,295 --> 00:31:56,325
Um, I guess that's the
question at hand, right?

612
00:31:56,325 --> 00:32:01,185
So me, I mean, I'm not, I'm not
entirely sure, but, um, members

613
00:32:01,185 --> 00:32:04,754
have always been able to and
should have been notifying the wto.

614
00:32:05,115 --> 00:32:09,795
You know, right before this agreement
came in, um, it has been improving over

615
00:32:09,795 --> 00:32:14,625
the years as these negotiations have been
getting a lot closer and since the, since

616
00:32:14,625 --> 00:32:19,965
the, they agreed the text, we've seen more
countries, uh, notifying with, with, with

617
00:32:19,965 --> 00:32:22,155
better, uh, more detailed information.

618
00:32:22,605 --> 00:32:25,275
So I think there is a requirement
to report to some extent.

619
00:32:25,485 --> 00:32:28,815
I think what this agreement does
is it really sets out like this

620
00:32:28,815 --> 00:32:32,865
is what you must include and the
periodicity, so it has to be annual now.

621
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:38,340
Unless you're a, um, kind of self, uh, if,
if you're a developed or least developing

622
00:32:38,340 --> 00:32:42,330
country, uh, developed country, they're
the terms that are used, then you have,

623
00:32:42,390 --> 00:32:43,950
then you can report every four years.

624
00:32:44,460 --> 00:32:44,490
Okay.

625
00:32:44,490 --> 00:32:47,910
So there are parts of this agreement
again, that try and what they call

626
00:32:47,910 --> 00:32:49,530
special and differential treatment.

627
00:32:49,530 --> 00:32:49,590
Yeah.

628
00:32:49,650 --> 00:32:53,910
And that account either allows like
a lower threshold or, uh, longer

629
00:32:53,910 --> 00:32:58,320
time periods for developed and least
developed countries, uh, to adhere to

630
00:32:58,320 --> 00:32:59,640
the rules, which is, that's usually.

631
00:33:00,375 --> 00:33:00,555
Yeah.

632
00:33:00,555 --> 00:33:03,075
And that's usually 'cause they don't
always have the resources to like

633
00:33:03,075 --> 00:33:06,405
the people and stuff to do that
reporting and even the, the means

634
00:33:06,405 --> 00:33:08,145
to get that data at this point.

635
00:33:08,145 --> 00:33:08,205
Yeah.

636
00:33:08,205 --> 00:33:12,855
Which obviously, you know, not great
in terms of a, of a, of a way of un

637
00:33:13,065 --> 00:33:16,485
understanding what's happening in their
fishery, but also understanding that these

638
00:33:16,485 --> 00:33:20,025
countries are trying, they have other
things to that, that they're focused and

639
00:33:20,025 --> 00:33:23,325
they just may not have the, the people,
the resources to be able to accomplish,

640
00:33:23,355 --> 00:33:24,975
uh, an annual type of reporting.

641
00:33:24,975 --> 00:33:25,065
Right.

642
00:33:25,805 --> 00:33:27,510
It, it, it is, it is true to that as well.

643
00:33:27,515 --> 00:33:32,010
The other, the other thing is it really
helps to, or this is part of the goal, is

644
00:33:32,010 --> 00:33:36,360
to, um, ensure that the biggest subsidizer
subsidizes those with the broadest

645
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,020
shoulders burden the most, you know, have
the biggest burden from this agreement.

646
00:33:40,020 --> 00:33:40,140
Yes.

647
00:33:40,379 --> 00:33:43,950
So, just to go a few stats that might
help the, uh, you know, the, the

648
00:33:43,950 --> 00:33:48,360
listener on this, we talked about
22 billion US dollars a year is

649
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,220
provided in harmful fishery subsidies.

650
00:33:50,820 --> 00:33:51,990
Across the whole world.

651
00:33:52,350 --> 00:33:55,350
But when we look at kind of how
that breaks down, who's providing

652
00:33:55,350 --> 00:33:59,970
it, you know, the top 10 are
providing about 70% of the top 10.

653
00:34:00,210 --> 00:34:03,300
You know, countries are
providing about 70% of all that.

654
00:34:03,780 --> 00:34:09,090
So that's, uh, China, the eu,
the us, Japan, Korea, Indonesia,

655
00:34:09,389 --> 00:34:10,290
um, I don't remember that.

656
00:34:10,364 --> 00:34:12,060
I, I think that's about
the right order, right?

657
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,045
So 70% is provided by
those, by those 10 entities.

658
00:34:15,715 --> 00:34:20,070
Some of those are actually developed
nations, although they won't be

659
00:34:20,070 --> 00:34:23,400
able to, uh, benefit from the
special and differential treatment.

660
00:34:23,850 --> 00:34:24,000
Right.

661
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,030
And then even within that, so you
have, so you have 10, let's call

662
00:34:27,030 --> 00:34:29,460
'em like the richest countries,
providing most of the subsidies.

663
00:34:29,820 --> 00:34:35,820
When you're looking even within that,
about, uh, 90% of that is then going to

664
00:34:35,820 --> 00:34:37,560
the, to the large scale fishing fleet.

665
00:34:37,830 --> 00:34:42,930
So the biggest boats often fishing,
you know, um, furthest away from shore,

666
00:34:42,930 --> 00:34:44,520
hardest to kind of monitor control.

667
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,389
Um, and then even when you, you
know, there's so many layers to this.

668
00:34:48,389 --> 00:34:52,529
And then below that, we found about,
um, you know, recent paper we did,

669
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:58,380
we found that about, um, 20 to 37%
of all those harmful subsidies are

670
00:34:58,380 --> 00:35:01,560
actually being given to vessels,
not even fishing their own waters.

671
00:35:01,950 --> 00:35:05,490
So it's often the EU or China,
for example, will be subsidizing

672
00:35:05,490 --> 00:35:10,440
vessels that are fishing elsewhere,
generally in, um, Africa or Oceania.

673
00:35:11,070 --> 00:35:15,300
Um, you know, so, so there's a real
inequality kind of baked into how

674
00:35:15,300 --> 00:35:19,500
ssis who provides them and who they
provide them to, if that makes sense.

675
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:23,610
So, you know, so part of this special
differential treatment is also

676
00:35:23,610 --> 00:35:27,900
because, you know, as, as we've just
said there, 10 countries account

677
00:35:27,900 --> 00:35:29,910
for, you know, 70% of all of it.

678
00:35:29,910 --> 00:35:33,780
So it's kind of to also to put
the emphasis on like who this

679
00:35:33,780 --> 00:35:35,820
agreement should really be targeting.

680
00:35:36,150 --> 00:35:37,830
And it's those the biggest subsidizes.

681
00:35:37,995 --> 00:35:38,055
Yeah.

682
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:38,960
Yeah.

683
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,565
That's not to say that that
harm can't be done, you know,

684
00:35:41,565 --> 00:35:43,875
by spending a l less money.

685
00:35:44,654 --> 00:35:47,565
Uh, it's just that, you know, when you
look at it on a global scale, which

686
00:35:47,895 --> 00:35:51,674
as a wt, you know, is interesting
kind of global trade and systems.

687
00:35:52,245 --> 00:35:52,424
Yeah.

688
00:35:52,430 --> 00:35:53,805
That, that's how, how it's done.

689
00:35:54,464 --> 00:35:57,645
And I think this is really important
when we, when we talk about this type

690
00:35:57,645 --> 00:36:04,105
of, of work and, and what it's, what it
seems to bring, uh, in terms of like.

691
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,290
Countries really want
to be part of this WTO.

692
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:11,190
Like they, this a, it's a very important
aspect to their pride, uh, to be

693
00:36:11,190 --> 00:36:16,170
part of a, of a, a global sort of
agreement, a, a global organization,

694
00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:19,800
uh, to say, Hey, you know, we're
participating in all these things.

695
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,630
That's something that I've
realized when it comes to

696
00:36:21,630 --> 00:36:24,060
policy and, and to these, these.

697
00:36:24,330 --> 00:36:27,540
Being part of these large organizations
or these large agreements is

698
00:36:27,540 --> 00:36:29,040
it's, it's a prideful thing.

699
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,169
We're a part of this, we're
part of the Paris Agreement.

700
00:36:31,169 --> 00:36:34,529
We're a part of the WTO, and, and
we're abiding by the rules of the, of,

701
00:36:34,589 --> 00:36:39,450
of this, these organizing bodies to
say, Hey, let's, let's do this thing.

702
00:36:39,629 --> 00:36:42,240
So when it, when an agreement
like this comes out.

703
00:36:42,915 --> 00:36:46,365
Uh, you know, it's important for
like, we can, it's, it's not like

704
00:36:46,365 --> 00:36:49,425
we, I mean, you can use it as like a
name and shame of like, these, these

705
00:36:49,425 --> 00:36:51,075
countries haven't ratified this yet.

706
00:36:51,075 --> 00:36:52,665
Like, why haven't they ratified it?

707
00:36:53,055 --> 00:36:55,365
But it's also, it's like you can
say, Hey, look, like if you want

708
00:36:55,365 --> 00:36:56,940
to really be a part of this WTO.

709
00:36:57,645 --> 00:37:01,875
Incorporating this agreement into your,
into your laws not only benefits your

710
00:37:01,875 --> 00:37:06,495
fishery, but also benefits like for the,
the long-term aspect of your fishery.

711
00:37:06,825 --> 00:37:10,754
Um, so I, I think that's a, a really
good point to, to hammer home that I want

712
00:37:10,754 --> 00:37:12,975
to, to get across is because of this.

713
00:37:13,190 --> 00:37:17,090
Countries are, are, have a little bit
more incentive to be a part of this

714
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,540
agreement, especially, you know, some
of the top 10 that you mentioned just

715
00:37:20,540 --> 00:37:23,690
earlier, that, that are providing
the most harmful, uh, subsidies, the

716
00:37:23,750 --> 00:37:25,430
most amount of harmful subsidies.

717
00:37:25,730 --> 00:37:28,280
But I think there's also like some
really cool things, although we've,

718
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,430
we've identified already some
loopholes, potential loopholes that

719
00:37:31,430 --> 00:37:33,440
countries can get a get through.

720
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:38,750
But I really like that, uh, the subsidies
that enable, uh, phishing on unregulated.

721
00:37:38,975 --> 00:37:39,665
High seas.

722
00:37:39,665 --> 00:37:40,984
Like you, you can't do that.

723
00:37:40,984 --> 00:37:44,165
So this is really interesting 'cause
I'm working on this story for, I, I

724
00:37:44,165 --> 00:37:47,765
mentioned it to you before we recorded
that, uh, for the, for the next episode.

725
00:37:48,305 --> 00:37:51,904
And, and one of the things that I
found is like, they're using sar,

726
00:37:52,625 --> 00:37:56,705
which is like a, a type of radar,
like satellite radar that identifies

727
00:37:57,154 --> 00:37:59,194
like the presence of fishing boats.

728
00:37:59,194 --> 00:38:01,745
You know, they, they know what
these fishing boats look like and

729
00:38:01,745 --> 00:38:03,424
the SAR can really identify these.

730
00:38:03,424 --> 00:38:06,754
They come and look up like black
dots or, or, or black objects.

731
00:38:07,265 --> 00:38:08,435
So you can identify.

732
00:38:09,105 --> 00:38:12,645
Which, and using that in the combination
of a number of other things, AI a

733
00:38:12,645 --> 00:38:17,745
IS and stuff, you can identify which
boats are in the high seas and like

734
00:38:17,745 --> 00:38:19,515
they shouldn't be in the high seas.

735
00:38:19,515 --> 00:38:21,795
And, and eventually you can get
where they're from if they're

736
00:38:21,795 --> 00:38:23,685
part of the a IS program.

737
00:38:23,865 --> 00:38:27,645
And you can get, so like, I feel like
this, there's a lot of potential in that

738
00:38:27,645 --> 00:38:31,245
last, or the, the third thing that you
said in terms of the pro prohibitions,

739
00:38:31,605 --> 00:38:34,125
um, especially as like, if you're
found on the un, like on the high

740
00:38:34,125 --> 00:38:37,605
seas and it's, you know, we know it's
unregulated, we know it's, it's difficult.

741
00:38:38,069 --> 00:38:41,460
Then you can remove those subsidies
from that, from that vessel or

742
00:38:41,460 --> 00:38:44,850
that company that that monitors
that vessel or, or works that

743
00:38:44,850 --> 00:38:46,740
fleet or vessel, just like that.

744
00:38:46,740 --> 00:38:50,220
Like you have the capability to
do that if you incorporate and

745
00:38:50,220 --> 00:38:51,840
ratify this, this agreement.

746
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,500
I feel like there's a benefit in that
if, you know, people start to use that

747
00:38:55,500 --> 00:38:59,790
now there are limitations with this,
this technology, because it only passes

748
00:38:59,790 --> 00:39:02,340
certain amount of times and you know,
it could be difficult to do that.

749
00:39:02,340 --> 00:39:06,750
But just having that access, there's
a potential there to really be able

750
00:39:06,750 --> 00:39:11,130
to enforce these types of subsidies
on the high seas, which traditionally

751
00:39:11,130 --> 00:39:15,330
has been impossible to, to navigate
and, and to really monitor.

752
00:39:15,330 --> 00:39:15,630
Right?

753
00:39:16,650 --> 00:39:17,070
Yeah.

754
00:39:17,075 --> 00:39:19,020
And, and just, you know.

755
00:39:19,815 --> 00:39:23,025
Important as well to say a lot
of these fish, this fishing

756
00:39:23,115 --> 00:39:24,615
on the unregulated high seas.

757
00:39:24,615 --> 00:39:30,375
So this is, you know, generally any
fishing that's outside of a regional RFMO

758
00:39:30,375 --> 00:39:35,805
or what we call regional fisheries bodies
RFPs, um, you know, it's not illegal.

759
00:39:36,495 --> 00:39:39,825
It just, it just, there there
are no laws that regulate it.

760
00:39:39,945 --> 00:39:40,035
Right.

761
00:39:40,035 --> 00:39:44,175
So, so, you know, so the, the, they're
not necessarily not supposed to be there.

762
00:39:44,355 --> 00:39:45,100
It is just that mm-hmm.

763
00:39:45,185 --> 00:39:47,175
There isn't any rules that regulate it.

764
00:39:47,955 --> 00:39:51,615
Um, you know, I'm not sure how,
what proportion of fisheries are

765
00:39:51,615 --> 00:39:52,875
unregulated on the high seas.

766
00:39:52,875 --> 00:39:53,540
It's kind of mm-hmm.

767
00:39:53,715 --> 00:39:56,085
I generally work on fisheries
that have regulation.

768
00:39:56,175 --> 00:39:56,740
Yeah, of course.

769
00:39:56,740 --> 00:40:00,165
Um, but I think, um, you know, and I, I
was thinking about this the day, like,

770
00:40:00,260 --> 00:40:04,875
I, I, I, I think there could be a real,
this could be a strong article in terms

771
00:40:04,875 --> 00:40:07,335
of, um, you know, maybe future fisheries.

772
00:40:07,335 --> 00:40:08,415
You know, I hear a lot about.

773
00:40:08,730 --> 00:40:11,460
The potential of like miso
fisheries, these are mm-hmm.

774
00:40:11,790 --> 00:40:15,660
I think as I understand it, these high
seas fisheries of, of fish stocks are,

775
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:17,700
are below the surface a bit, I think.

776
00:40:17,700 --> 00:40:17,790
Mm-hmm.

777
00:40:18,029 --> 00:40:22,109
And they're generally like this,
you know, uh, I hate to say untapped

778
00:40:22,109 --> 00:40:24,480
resource, but they're, they're
not really targeted at the moment.

779
00:40:24,839 --> 00:40:24,930
Yeah.

780
00:40:24,930 --> 00:40:28,560
From my understanding, you know,
initially when I looked at, you know,

781
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:33,660
these fisheries, the cost of them, you
know, for the return is so low that it

782
00:40:33,660 --> 00:40:37,169
looks like the only way they might be
able to establish these fisheries is.

783
00:40:38,010 --> 00:40:41,850
As kind of, um, you know,
experimental fisheries or I

784
00:40:41,850 --> 00:40:43,860
assume by heavily subsidizing it.

785
00:40:44,190 --> 00:40:47,760
So, so I wonder if this article that
stops that actually also might be quite

786
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,110
useful for preventing, you know, uh,
these, these experimental fisheries

787
00:40:52,110 --> 00:40:56,730
being, you know, trying to, trying to,
trying to target this, this, this, uh,

788
00:40:57,060 --> 00:41:01,800
this, um, you know, resource that's
currently not being targeted, but because

789
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,660
it's so inefficient, it needs subsidies.

790
00:41:03,660 --> 00:41:06,090
You know, maybe this might
prevent things like that.

791
00:41:06,090 --> 00:41:06,540
I don't know.

792
00:41:06,735 --> 00:41:06,795
Yeah.

793
00:41:07,575 --> 00:41:11,685
As I said, I think throughout all of this,
you know, it's really gonna be around, and

794
00:41:11,685 --> 00:41:16,215
this is what we want wt O members to focus
on now, is like, start implementing it.

795
00:41:16,215 --> 00:41:19,575
Show us like, you know, how are
we gonna make sure that this

796
00:41:19,575 --> 00:41:24,345
actually has some impact and, and
starts to, you know, remove or

797
00:41:24,345 --> 00:41:26,055
redirect these harmful subsidies.

798
00:41:26,055 --> 00:41:29,205
And I think, you know, seeing really,
because the texts, as you said at the

799
00:41:29,205 --> 00:41:33,045
beginning, when it might have been off,
off count, off mic, you know, some of it's

800
00:41:33,045 --> 00:41:34,460
a bit vague and it's, you know mm-hmm.

801
00:41:34,465 --> 00:41:35,985
Some of these especially legal texts.

802
00:41:36,555 --> 00:41:40,605
You know, you almost need a qualification
in, in how to read legal text

803
00:41:40,605 --> 00:41:43,964
to, to, you know, and there's all
these footnotes and, and, you know,

804
00:41:43,970 --> 00:41:48,225
and, and if this, then, so I think
that's gonna be key, is like mm-hmm.

805
00:41:48,615 --> 00:41:50,910
Start, start reporting what
subsidies you give now.

806
00:41:51,615 --> 00:41:53,504
Let's see what this does over time.

807
00:41:53,504 --> 00:41:56,355
And you know, maybe in two or three
years when we can see a change

808
00:41:56,355 --> 00:41:58,365
in how subsidies are provided.

809
00:41:58,725 --> 00:42:01,814
And then ultimately, hopefully
that will start leading into, you

810
00:42:01,814 --> 00:42:05,444
know, more sustainable fisheries
ideally, or more equitable fisheries,

811
00:42:05,444 --> 00:42:07,185
you know, as, as well, hopefully.

812
00:42:08,415 --> 00:42:08,654
Yeah.

813
00:42:08,654 --> 00:42:11,384
It's interesting 'cause you, what
you mentioned there is like being

814
00:42:11,384 --> 00:42:15,495
transparent and, and identifying
what subsidy is given out for, for

815
00:42:15,495 --> 00:42:17,084
what you know, in terms of fisheries.

816
00:42:17,444 --> 00:42:19,575
Um, I was just actually
gonna look it up being like.

817
00:42:20,100 --> 00:42:21,900
I don't even know, like I
live in Canada, I don't even

818
00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:23,790
know what subsidies are given.

819
00:42:23,790 --> 00:42:28,230
And to a lot of these, these, uh,
industries, we don't know how many,

820
00:42:28,380 --> 00:42:34,109
like what's given for how much money is
given, what companies or, or parts of the

821
00:42:34,109 --> 00:42:37,200
industry like get more than than others.

822
00:42:37,470 --> 00:42:39,029
What do we get back from it?

823
00:42:39,330 --> 00:42:41,220
Uh, that's, I feel like there, that.

824
00:42:41,580 --> 00:42:42,270
Information.

825
00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:45,360
I'm hoping that information is out
there, you know, as, as a government,

826
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:46,650
'cause it should be transparent.

827
00:42:46,650 --> 00:42:51,060
But sometimes I, I, you know, based on
your smile, you know, just being like

828
00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:56,160
that probably isn't, isn't readily
available to, to your average sort of

829
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,080
citizen who, who might want to know.

830
00:42:58,080 --> 00:42:59,230
And maybe there's like, I know like.

831
00:42:59,430 --> 00:43:03,299
With, with Canada, we get like freedom
of, of information act, so you can

832
00:43:03,299 --> 00:43:06,870
submit a freedom of Information Act
if you want to know specific data,

833
00:43:07,109 --> 00:43:08,609
uh, that they have to abide by.

834
00:43:08,609 --> 00:43:09,930
And usually it's a bit of a crap shoot.

835
00:43:09,930 --> 00:43:12,029
I know journalists do do that quite a bit.

836
00:43:12,299 --> 00:43:16,410
Um, this, that, that information
is usually not readily

837
00:43:16,410 --> 00:43:17,520
available, I assume, right?

838
00:43:18,299 --> 00:43:19,140
Yeah, it is.

839
00:43:19,799 --> 00:43:21,810
It's, you know, patch it best.

840
00:43:21,810 --> 00:43:26,250
Obviously cer certain countries or certain
kind of groups are much better at this.

841
00:43:26,295 --> 00:43:29,205
You know, I'm, I'm based in, or
was based in the European Union.

842
00:43:29,205 --> 00:43:32,175
I'm in the uk, but the European
Union are, are kind of, you know,

843
00:43:32,175 --> 00:43:36,285
they're, they have, they have
incredible kind of fiscal management.

844
00:43:36,315 --> 00:43:39,705
You know, you can find out a lot of
information about, about the provision

845
00:43:39,705 --> 00:43:43,395
of the finance of funding, uh,
particularly for the Fisher Sector,

846
00:43:43,665 --> 00:43:44,925
not, not everywhere's like that.

847
00:43:45,255 --> 00:43:48,075
I think part of the issue
as well is the format of how

848
00:43:48,075 --> 00:43:49,485
these subs might be provided.

849
00:43:49,485 --> 00:43:53,565
You know, it's generally quite
relatively straightforward to find

850
00:43:53,955 --> 00:43:55,460
direct transfers of, you know.

851
00:43:56,100 --> 00:43:59,279
This fishing fleet or this
individual vessel got money

852
00:43:59,279 --> 00:44:00,840
to put in a brand new engine.

853
00:44:00,900 --> 00:44:02,549
You know, stuff like that is relative.

854
00:44:02,549 --> 00:44:03,660
There's always a paper chain.

855
00:44:04,049 --> 00:44:09,690
It's more the indirect subs or, um,
you know, one of the, one of the subs

856
00:44:09,690 --> 00:44:14,069
I work quite a bit on is, uh, fuel
tax concessions, which sadly won't be

857
00:44:14,069 --> 00:44:15,810
kind of picked up by this agreement.

858
00:44:16,170 --> 00:44:19,500
But what that is, is basically we
all pay tax for fuel when we go

859
00:44:19,500 --> 00:44:22,740
to the, you know, to the pump to
fill up your, the gas in your car.

860
00:44:23,279 --> 00:44:23,640
Um.

861
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,629
You know, most are pretty, I would
say all phishing industries don't

862
00:44:27,629 --> 00:44:31,049
have to pay tax on fuel generally, or
they pay a very reduced rate of tax.

863
00:44:31,049 --> 00:44:31,140
Right.

864
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,759
And so that's the subsidy, right, because
you've reduced the cost of, of, of, of

865
00:44:35,759 --> 00:44:37,705
phishing by reducing the cost of mm-hmm.

866
00:44:37,845 --> 00:44:40,799
You know, the arguments around it
may be valid or may not, you know,

867
00:44:40,799 --> 00:44:44,549
around competition or like to, uh,
makes sense, shield them from fuel,

868
00:44:44,549 --> 00:44:45,930
price hikes, things like that.

869
00:44:46,169 --> 00:44:48,660
But regardless, like it's
a, it is a subsidy, but it's

870
00:44:48,660 --> 00:44:49,710
one that isn't generally.

871
00:44:50,940 --> 00:44:53,130
Uh, you know, there's
no paper trail for that.

872
00:44:53,580 --> 00:44:56,700
And actually we've worked with governments
for where we've modeled what is the cost

873
00:44:56,700 --> 00:45:00,540
of that, and they then used our modeled
estimate as like, cool, this is the

874
00:45:00,540 --> 00:45:02,550
fuel tax con concession that we provide.

875
00:45:03,150 --> 00:45:06,180
Because they just haven't, you know, they
haven't done the work now of how much

876
00:45:06,180 --> 00:45:08,100
fuel is used by the industry every year.

877
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,580
What's the reduction in cost per
liter, you know, and things like that.

878
00:45:11,580 --> 00:45:17,010
So, so hopefully, you know, we'll
see with this transparency article.

879
00:45:17,535 --> 00:45:20,745
What information the governments
do have, like and, and what

880
00:45:20,745 --> 00:45:22,065
they don't because right.

881
00:45:23,745 --> 00:45:26,835
Not all subs are, are, are,
are born equal, as it were.

882
00:45:27,285 --> 00:45:27,945
No, exactly.

883
00:45:28,125 --> 00:45:28,725
Exactly.

884
00:45:28,725 --> 00:45:31,905
And I, I think it's important
to, to identify that and,

885
00:45:31,905 --> 00:45:33,075
and, and to understand that.

886
00:45:33,075 --> 00:45:34,035
And I think it's great.

887
00:45:34,335 --> 00:45:38,355
Um, you know, you being a, you know,
coming from a science background and, and

888
00:45:38,355 --> 00:45:44,625
you know, working with policies, seeing
agreements like this, do you automatically

889
00:45:44,625 --> 00:45:51,195
identify, okay, this is where we need to
direct our research in the future to help.

890
00:45:52,410 --> 00:45:56,280
With this agreement, like from an
Oceana perspective, when you look

891
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:01,860
at this agreement, what are you
looking at for in the future of how

892
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:03,750
this, this will shape the future?

893
00:46:03,750 --> 00:46:06,060
Is this gonna have, like, do you
think this is gonna have a, I guess

894
00:46:06,060 --> 00:46:08,430
the first question is, do you think
this is gonna have a big impact

895
00:46:08,430 --> 00:46:10,710
on the fishing industry worldwide?

896
00:46:15,655 --> 00:46:18,420
Just this agreement, not
like, you know, steps later.

897
00:46:20,129 --> 00:46:25,375
I think it will, but, and, and we'll
get onto those, um, habits for sure.

898
00:46:25,404 --> 00:46:26,214
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

899
00:46:26,214 --> 00:46:26,535
For sure.

900
00:46:26,595 --> 00:46:31,919
And I, I think it will, because this is
the first legally binding agreement on

901
00:46:31,919 --> 00:46:34,470
fishery subsidies, like we now have Yes.

902
00:46:34,620 --> 00:46:36,540
Rules that say, you know.

903
00:46:36,944 --> 00:46:40,754
They, they even recognize like,
you know, certain subs are bad.

904
00:46:40,754 --> 00:46:40,845
Yeah.

905
00:46:40,995 --> 00:46:42,944
And we need to stop providing
them and redirect them.

906
00:46:43,245 --> 00:46:46,395
Like I think that is a, is a, is a
bit of a, you know, a sea change.

907
00:46:46,395 --> 00:46:50,084
And, and even because there was, that was
a debate, you know, quite a while ago.

908
00:46:50,205 --> 00:46:53,055
Hasn't been from, I don't think
for the last five, six years as

909
00:46:53,234 --> 00:46:55,964
they've really been sitting down
and trying to negotiate this text.

910
00:46:55,964 --> 00:46:58,125
So I think it is gonna have a big change.

911
00:46:58,455 --> 00:46:59,234
Will this.

912
00:46:59,655 --> 00:47:03,825
Fish one, you know, from my reading
of it, result in a, in a significant

913
00:47:03,825 --> 00:47:05,625
reduction in harmful fishery subsidies.

914
00:47:05,685 --> 00:47:08,235
You know, next year, maybe not.

915
00:47:08,535 --> 00:47:12,225
And I think because of some of these,
um, caveats, you know, some of these

916
00:47:12,225 --> 00:47:16,455
loopholes, the fact that it doesn't
quite, you know, a third of, uh,

917
00:47:16,455 --> 00:47:21,435
the world's fish catch is made by
countries that haven't yet ratified it.

918
00:47:21,795 --> 00:47:24,105
You know, so when you start looking
at that and taking out the little

919
00:47:24,105 --> 00:47:25,545
bits that aren't quite covered yet.

920
00:47:26,295 --> 00:47:27,465
You know, it starts to reduce.

921
00:47:27,675 --> 00:47:30,585
But having said that, as, as we
said at the beginning, like, we do

922
00:47:30,585 --> 00:47:32,445
celebrate this, I think it is important.

923
00:47:32,715 --> 00:47:36,915
I think it's a really important platform
to build off, you know, and, uh, as

924
00:47:36,915 --> 00:47:40,335
I've said two or three times now, I
think we're gonna learn a lot more

925
00:47:40,335 --> 00:47:41,805
as this starts getting implemented.

926
00:47:42,255 --> 00:47:48,285
Um, you know, I think I, I potentially
see a role for, as in and other

927
00:47:48,795 --> 00:47:51,465
entities is in trying to hold.

928
00:47:52,065 --> 00:47:55,275
You know, the governments where
we operate accountable, you know?

929
00:47:55,275 --> 00:47:55,365
Mm-hmm.

930
00:47:55,605 --> 00:47:59,595
Asking for that transparency, looking
for the receipts and the, the evidence

931
00:47:59,595 --> 00:48:03,345
of, you know, okay, you're sub, like,
are you subsidizing this Overfish stock?

932
00:48:03,345 --> 00:48:06,165
You know, if yes, are you gonna stop that?

933
00:48:06,165 --> 00:48:08,174
Or like, what's your evidence
that the stock is rebuild?

934
00:48:08,235 --> 00:48:12,255
You know, so trying to use this as a
tool to kind of say, you know, you are

935
00:48:12,255 --> 00:48:15,975
now legally bind, you ratified this, you
negotiated it first, then ratified it.

936
00:48:15,975 --> 00:48:18,590
Like let, let, let's, let's
end to this with, you know.

937
00:48:19,290 --> 00:48:22,440
Kind of honesty and, and really
trying to actually, you know,

938
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,319
adhere to the letter, the spirit of
the agreement rather than mm-hmm.

939
00:48:25,710 --> 00:48:27,629
You know, maybe trying
to find these loopholes.

940
00:48:28,230 --> 00:48:31,649
So yeah, I think it is gonna have a big
impact in that sense, in the sense that,

941
00:48:32,250 --> 00:48:38,520
you know, it's the first real tangible
step, you know, to 25 years of talking

942
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,169
and, you know, maybe this would happen.

943
00:48:40,379 --> 00:48:42,540
Like we now have something
that we can hold up.

944
00:48:42,870 --> 00:48:43,799
It's in force.

945
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:45,270
Uh, you know.

946
00:48:45,780 --> 00:48:45,840
Yeah.

947
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,710
And we now have, as I said, the next
thing four years to, to, to get the, the

948
00:48:49,710 --> 00:48:54,330
rest of the agreement, to make it in the
WTOs own words, to make it comprehensive.

949
00:48:54,975 --> 00:48:58,725
Right, right now from, uh, you know,
for, for ratification, so there's,

950
00:48:58,725 --> 00:49:01,605
people can sign on that they want,
they, they like the agreement,

951
00:49:01,904 --> 00:49:03,285
but then they have to ratify it.

952
00:49:03,464 --> 00:49:06,585
That means they have to actually, once
they ratify it, that means they're putting

953
00:49:06,585 --> 00:49:09,975
in laws in their own, like they're,
they're incorporating the, the components

954
00:49:09,975 --> 00:49:14,384
of this that they have to incorporate to
fully ratify it and put it in their laws.

955
00:49:15,075 --> 00:49:18,915
Uh, this is something from a,
from an individual perspective,

956
00:49:19,185 --> 00:49:22,634
uh, what can people do to help?

957
00:49:23,190 --> 00:49:27,120
That ratification like to help countries,
like their country, their own country,

958
00:49:27,300 --> 00:49:28,890
to sign on to that ratification.

959
00:49:28,890 --> 00:49:30,630
So for instance, I live in Canada.

960
00:49:30,930 --> 00:49:33,990
I want my country to ratify
this as an individual.

961
00:49:33,990 --> 00:49:39,660
What can I do to ensure that this country,
like my country, ratifies this deal?

962
00:49:41,010 --> 00:49:41,400
Yeah.

963
00:49:41,460 --> 00:49:44,580
I mean, thankfully Canada
and as a Canadian as well has

964
00:49:44,580 --> 00:49:45,870
ratified it, so that's good.

965
00:49:46,140 --> 00:49:48,750
But if we're in a country,
yeah, prior to that.

966
00:49:50,339 --> 00:49:53,819
You know, we are members and there's,
and there's dozens of members

967
00:49:53,819 --> 00:49:56,520
of this coercion called the Stop
Funding Over Fishing Coalition.

968
00:49:56,879 --> 00:50:00,240
And, you know, certain, certain
colleagues in that have been doing

969
00:50:00,569 --> 00:50:05,790
really tireless work on trying to push
nations and work with nations and, and

970
00:50:05,790 --> 00:50:10,170
their delegation at the, at the WTO
in Geneva to try and get this, even to

971
00:50:10,170 --> 00:50:14,549
just get the text agreed, you know, the,
the individual words on it, but part

972
00:50:14,549 --> 00:50:19,290
of what they do as well as work with,
uh, local CSOs, local NGOs to try and.

973
00:50:19,785 --> 00:50:23,295
You know, campaign or advocate
in those particular countries.

974
00:50:23,685 --> 00:50:26,865
So I, I, I, you know, it may not be
easy, but I think maybe first step would

975
00:50:26,865 --> 00:50:28,845
be check out, stop funding of fishing.

976
00:50:29,175 --> 00:50:33,705
See who their membership is, if there's
members from your country and trying to

977
00:50:33,765 --> 00:50:37,845
see, you know, do they have campaigns
on, on fishery subsidies or, or, you

978
00:50:37,845 --> 00:50:43,155
know, um, letters that you can sign
to, to get sent to your politicians.

979
00:50:43,395 --> 00:50:44,685
And if not, like, you know.

980
00:50:45,105 --> 00:50:48,915
Anybody can contact, I hope in most,
you know, country of the world can

981
00:50:48,915 --> 00:50:51,945
contact their politician and say
like, this is an important issue.

982
00:50:52,245 --> 00:50:53,085
What is happening?

983
00:50:53,565 --> 00:50:56,715
Or like, your environmental minister, your
fisheries minister, you know, what are we

984
00:50:56,715 --> 00:50:58,935
doing about the WTOs subsidies agreement?

985
00:51:00,135 --> 00:51:01,425
Um, yeah.

986
00:51:01,605 --> 00:51:05,235
And as you say, I forget, um, I can't
calculate off the top of my head, but

987
00:51:05,235 --> 00:51:07,395
it's, I think we've got 112 ratifications.

988
00:51:07,665 --> 00:51:09,885
Did you say 12 outta 1 66?

989
00:51:09,945 --> 00:51:10,185
Yep.

990
00:51:10,305 --> 00:51:12,045
Yeah, so there's a good, you know, 50.

991
00:51:12,045 --> 00:51:12,345
What's that?

992
00:51:12,380 --> 00:51:19,110
54. 55 never do mass live, but,
so there's 54 member states that

993
00:51:19,110 --> 00:51:22,320
haven't, that members that haven't
yet done it, some of those will be

994
00:51:22,590 --> 00:51:26,250
landlock countries, you know, whether
they ratify it or not, I don't know.

995
00:51:26,310 --> 00:51:30,360
And bearing in mind this only,
um, addresses marine fisheries.

996
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,720
It doesn't do inland fisheries, you
know, in lakes or rivers or agriculture.

997
00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:33,810
Right.

998
00:51:34,260 --> 00:51:37,890
So some of those landlocked countries
won't be ratifying it or probably won't.

999
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:38,790
Um, yeah.

1000
00:51:39,540 --> 00:51:41,520
Yeah, so there's still, there's
still, and there's some, you know, I

1001
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,660
think there's two out of the top 10
subsidizes still to ratify and some,

1002
00:51:45,660 --> 00:51:46,980
some important players in there.

1003
00:51:46,980 --> 00:51:48,270
So, yeah.

1004
00:51:48,270 --> 00:51:51,899
So there's a lot of kind of work still
to be done, even on ratification.

1005
00:51:51,899 --> 00:51:56,129
But, you know, I think the focus
especially, um, well, especially

1006
00:51:56,129 --> 00:51:59,790
in those 112 countries is on
implementation, you know, getting this,

1007
00:51:59,790 --> 00:52:00,870
getting this thing up and running.

1008
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:01,980
Yeah.

1009
00:52:02,010 --> 00:52:03,060
'cause that takes a while too.

1010
00:52:03,060 --> 00:52:06,000
Like it's not just, there's, there's
the one of ratifying it, but then

1011
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,730
you actually, the country actually
has to put it into place, into

1012
00:52:08,730 --> 00:52:11,880
their legal framework to say, Hey,
this is what we're gonna be doing.

1013
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:13,710
And then they have to actually act on it.

1014
00:52:14,100 --> 00:52:17,820
You know, they actually have to put
out those transparent, uh, reports.

1015
00:52:17,820 --> 00:52:21,750
They have to, uh, tell people, you
know, their citizens of like, this

1016
00:52:21,750 --> 00:52:23,130
is how we're gonna go forward.

1017
00:52:23,370 --> 00:52:24,120
That takes a long time.

1018
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:25,620
Government works slow, we know that.

1019
00:52:25,620 --> 00:52:27,180
And, and it, and it takes a while.

1020
00:52:27,180 --> 00:52:27,240
Yeah.

1021
00:52:27,510 --> 00:52:29,040
Um, you know, I like to.

1022
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:33,840
You know, the, the, the, the idea of
talking to your, your local member of

1023
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:37,230
Parliament for, for Canada and the u
and, and the UK was, we have members

1024
00:52:37,230 --> 00:52:40,770
of Parliament or your government
representative to, to sort of be

1025
00:52:40,770 --> 00:52:42,210
like, Hey, where are we on this?

1026
00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:45,330
Like, you know, they, they need to report
to us that being like, hey, like, you

1027
00:52:45,330 --> 00:52:46,920
know, we're like, this is what I know.

1028
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,940
I know we ratified as, as Canadians,
but where do we go from here?

1029
00:52:50,940 --> 00:52:53,760
Like, like, you know, how does this,
how does this proceed, you know, and

1030
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,090
make sure that they, it's on the top
of their priority list, you know?

1031
00:52:57,240 --> 00:52:57,390
Yeah.

1032
00:52:57,420 --> 00:52:58,900
Uh, because that's gonna
be, and remember this is.

1033
00:52:59,105 --> 00:53:00,605
This is taxpayer's money, right?

1034
00:53:00,695 --> 00:53:00,785
Yeah.

1035
00:53:00,785 --> 00:53:04,715
Like that, that, that, that definition we
had at the beginning of what is a subsidy,

1036
00:53:05,015 --> 00:53:10,055
it's public money being, being, being
transferred directly into private sectors.

1037
00:53:10,055 --> 00:53:14,645
So, you know, I, I, I think that we
have a right to know where it's going.

1038
00:53:14,645 --> 00:53:14,655
Mm-hmm.

1039
00:53:14,670 --> 00:53:16,595
Who it's going to and, and
what it's being used for.

1040
00:53:16,595 --> 00:53:17,165
What or what.

1041
00:53:17,165 --> 00:53:18,305
It's incentivizing.

1042
00:53:18,944 --> 00:53:19,544
Yes.

1043
00:53:19,605 --> 00:53:20,625
Yeah, absolutely.

1044
00:53:20,774 --> 00:53:21,404
Absolutely.

1045
00:53:21,765 --> 00:53:23,145
Um, I think that's really important.

1046
00:53:23,444 --> 00:53:25,725
Dan, this has been absolutely amazing.

1047
00:53:25,725 --> 00:53:27,435
I really appreciate you coming on.

1048
00:53:27,435 --> 00:53:31,845
I know it was a bit of a last minute thing
that we, we kind of put together here and,

1049
00:53:31,845 --> 00:53:35,654
and I do really appreciate you coming on
and, and breaking down this agreement.

1050
00:53:35,955 --> 00:53:38,685
Uh, you know, this is, I feel
like I, I think you agree

1051
00:53:38,685 --> 00:53:40,274
this is a great step forward.

1052
00:53:40,544 --> 00:53:43,634
Um, we still have a lot of work to
do in, in making sure that illegal

1053
00:53:43,634 --> 00:53:44,714
phishing is done and we're not.

1054
00:53:45,250 --> 00:53:48,340
Funding illegal phishing,
um, and, and overfishing.

1055
00:53:48,340 --> 00:53:52,210
And so, we'll, we'll put people onto
that, uh, stop funding, uh, overfishing

1056
00:53:52,210 --> 00:53:54,130
website so people can get access.

1057
00:53:54,130 --> 00:53:57,400
We'll, also, I'll put in the, in the
description all the material that

1058
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,970
Oceania has come up with, uh, you
know, based on, on this agreement,

1059
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,750
but also on your phishing campaigns as
well, overfishing campaigns as well.

1060
00:54:04,990 --> 00:54:08,320
Um, you guys have been so great to us,
uh, to provide all this information.

1061
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,150
We, we, we really
appreciate you coming on.

1062
00:54:10,330 --> 00:54:13,270
Look forward to having you
back on to explain more of, of.

1063
00:54:13,350 --> 00:54:16,740
Phishing and, and what the new
technologies and everything like

1064
00:54:16,740 --> 00:54:17,790
that that's coming into play.

1065
00:54:18,270 --> 00:54:18,779
Yeah.

1066
00:54:18,779 --> 00:54:21,305
And hey, hopefully it's not
25 years until the next.

1067
00:54:22,065 --> 00:54:22,425
Yes.

1068
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:25,080
You know, fish the next, the next
agreement on fishery subsidies.

1069
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:25,320
Right.

1070
00:54:25,420 --> 00:54:26,400
So, absolutely.

1071
00:54:26,590 --> 00:54:26,880
Yeah.

1072
00:54:27,700 --> 00:54:27,960
Be great.

1073
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:28,040
Yeah.

1074
00:54:28,185 --> 00:54:31,065
Well, I think it'll be nice to see
like a, maybe potential amendments to

1075
00:54:31,065 --> 00:54:35,835
these ones as we start to learn how
countries are reacting or even not

1076
00:54:35,835 --> 00:54:38,055
reacting, uh, to some of these things.

1077
00:54:38,055 --> 00:54:41,595
And, and I think like there's the
part of, you know, the ratification.

1078
00:54:41,879 --> 00:54:44,640
The putting into the legal
framework, acting on it, but

1079
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:46,049
making sure they're acting on it.

1080
00:54:46,049 --> 00:54:50,279
And that's where I feel like supporting
organizations such as Oceania, uh, in,

1081
00:54:50,279 --> 00:54:54,359
in, in wherever country you, you live in
and wherever they, wherever you guys work,

1082
00:54:54,540 --> 00:54:58,529
I know we have an Oceania Canada here
into supporting those organizations into,

1083
00:54:58,859 --> 00:55:00,450
you know, working with the government.

1084
00:55:00,450 --> 00:55:03,210
Not just pressuring them, but working
with the government to make sure that

1085
00:55:03,210 --> 00:55:07,740
they're, uh, implementing these, these,
this agreement and, and, uh, parts of the

1086
00:55:07,740 --> 00:55:08,850
agreement that are part of their league.

1087
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:09,570
Legal framework.

1088
00:55:09,570 --> 00:55:11,940
So I think that's, that's a
really important thing as well.

1089
00:55:11,940 --> 00:55:13,650
And we appreciate Oceania for doing that.

1090
00:55:13,650 --> 00:55:15,990
So, uh, Daniel, thank you
so much for, for coming on.

1091
00:55:15,990 --> 00:55:16,950
I'd love to have you back on.

1092
00:55:17,460 --> 00:55:17,760
Yeah.

1093
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:18,630
Cheers, Andre.

1094
00:55:18,630 --> 00:55:19,440
Thank you very much.

1095
00:55:19,710 --> 00:55:20,070
Thank you.

1096
00:55:22,140 --> 00:55:25,859
Thank you, Dan, for coming on once again
to break down this important agreement.

1097
00:55:25,859 --> 00:55:29,549
I feel like I said at the beginning,
this is a turning point in the way we are

1098
00:55:29,549 --> 00:55:34,890
looking at how to manage subsidies with
fisheries and to ensure that we are not

1099
00:55:34,890 --> 00:55:39,839
going to subsidize overfishing or illegal
unreported and unregulated fishing.

1100
00:55:40,055 --> 00:55:44,225
This is an important aspect to
every country and 112 OUTTA 166.

1101
00:55:44,225 --> 00:55:48,035
Members of the WTAO have ratified
it, including my own country, Canada,

1102
00:55:48,035 --> 00:55:51,245
which is great, but there are still
some big fishing nations who have not

1103
00:55:51,245 --> 00:55:53,734
ratified it, and we need them to ratify.

1104
00:55:53,765 --> 00:55:56,855
The more countries that are a part
of this, the better shape it'll be.

1105
00:55:56,975 --> 00:56:01,145
This is a work in progress, of course,
as this agreement has come out, and

1106
00:56:01,145 --> 00:56:04,865
this has taken a long time to put
together, but there still needs to be.

1107
00:56:05,154 --> 00:56:09,475
More stringent rules as we go forward,
but we're gonna see how this plays out.

1108
00:56:09,475 --> 00:56:11,755
Initially, conservation is done in steps.

1109
00:56:11,755 --> 00:56:12,985
It's not done all at once.

1110
00:56:12,985 --> 00:56:15,685
We have not solved over fishing
with this agreement, but we are

1111
00:56:15,685 --> 00:56:19,105
moving in the right direction, and
I think that's really important.

1112
00:56:19,165 --> 00:56:21,565
So I'm very happy that
Dan was able to come on.

1113
00:56:21,565 --> 00:56:23,065
He actually contacted me to say.

1114
00:56:23,365 --> 00:56:24,984
We need to talk about
this on your podcast.

1115
00:56:24,984 --> 00:56:25,375
You ready?

1116
00:56:25,375 --> 00:56:28,015
I'm like, yes, absolutely
a hundred percent.

1117
00:56:28,165 --> 00:56:28,915
Let's do it.

1118
00:56:29,004 --> 00:56:32,274
And so he came out and did that, and
I really appreciate him doing that.

1119
00:56:32,274 --> 00:56:35,634
So that's always great to have Dan
and Ocean in the work they do to

1120
00:56:35,634 --> 00:56:38,634
share this type of information,
to break it down for us.

1121
00:56:38,635 --> 00:56:40,795
We really appreciate Ocean
and Dan for doing this.

1122
00:56:40,795 --> 00:56:44,155
So thank you so much to them
for coming on the podcast and I

1123
00:56:44,155 --> 00:56:45,235
wanna thank you for listening.

1124
00:56:45,235 --> 00:56:48,385
If you have any questions or comments,
let me know in the comments below.

1125
00:56:48,385 --> 00:56:51,265
If you're watching this on YouTube, if
you're watching the audio or listening

1126
00:56:51,265 --> 00:56:53,095
to the audio version, I should say.

1127
00:56:53,215 --> 00:56:54,835
I really appreciate you
listening to the audio version,

1128
00:56:54,865 --> 00:56:56,035
'cause we started with audio.

1129
00:56:56,105 --> 00:56:58,205
We're gonna continue with audio always.

1130
00:56:58,265 --> 00:57:02,165
And so if you wanna get ahold of
me, you can do so Using Instagram.

1131
00:57:02,165 --> 00:57:06,665
Just DM me at how to protect the ocean
that's at how to protect the ocean.

1132
00:57:06,785 --> 00:57:10,955
Or you can go on the website, go
speak up for blue.com/contact.

1133
00:57:11,220 --> 00:57:12,029
Fill out the form.

1134
00:57:12,029 --> 00:57:13,470
It goes right to my personal email.

1135
00:57:13,529 --> 00:57:17,100
Love to have a chat with you about
that, and that's the episode for today.

1136
00:57:17,100 --> 00:57:20,640
I want to thank you so much for joining
me on another exciting episode of

1137
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:22,109
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

1138
00:57:22,109 --> 00:57:24,810
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from
the True Nord Strong and Free.

1139
00:57:24,810 --> 00:57:25,439
Have a great day.

1140
00:57:25,439 --> 00:57:27,600
We'll talk to you next time
and happy conservation.