Should bull sharks be culled? The truth behind shark bites and how people can actually stay safe

1
00:00:00,150 --> 00:00:02,430
Should bull sharks be eradicated?

2
00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:06,300
That is the big question that people
are asking after four serious bull

3
00:00:06,300 --> 00:00:11,489
shark bite incidences happened in
48 hours in Australia near Sydney.

4
00:00:11,579 --> 00:00:14,549
This is a question that everybody's
having and people have some pretty

5
00:00:14,549 --> 00:00:19,199
extreme views on what we should be
doing with bull sharks in the future.

6
00:00:19,468 --> 00:00:21,838
How do you feel about a
shark cu Well, I don't know.

7
00:00:21,838 --> 00:00:24,598
Look, I, I always feel like when something
tragic happens, obviously we, we need

8
00:00:24,598 --> 00:00:26,128
to be seen to be doing something.

9
00:00:26,368 --> 00:00:29,248
Mm. But whether this is the answer, I'm
not sure there are about 20,000 bull

10
00:00:29,248 --> 00:00:31,528
sharks in the Harbour at any one time.

11
00:00:31,528 --> 00:00:35,458
That's what my friend told me
anyway, Um, So I feel like it would

12
00:00:35,458 --> 00:00:37,468
just be kind of something to do.

13
00:00:37,498 --> 00:00:37,588
Yeah.

14
00:00:37,588 --> 00:00:40,588
To show that we're trying, I mean, it's
saying that though, if this happened

15
00:00:40,588 --> 00:00:42,298
to my family or someone in my family.

16
00:00:42,673 --> 00:00:43,873
I probably wanna drain the ocean.

17
00:00:44,153 --> 00:00:44,443
Yeah.

18
00:00:44,443 --> 00:00:45,343
You know, get rid of everything.

19
00:00:45,343 --> 00:00:46,273
I think that's a really good point.

20
00:00:46,273 --> 00:00:46,663
I would too.

21
00:00:46,723 --> 00:00:48,643
Um, but I mean, we've been
talking all morning and I've been

22
00:00:48,643 --> 00:00:51,973
covering this story for 20 years
and, and it happens every time.

23
00:00:52,123 --> 00:00:56,203
Mm. But I would say this, um, as I
said on Monday, all the way along

24
00:00:56,203 --> 00:00:58,483
the coast, my friends have been
telling me there's more sharks.

25
00:00:58,783 --> 00:01:02,173
The bull sharks, as far as I'm concerned,
are the bin chickens of the ocean.

26
00:01:02,203 --> 00:01:02,353
Yeah.

27
00:01:02,353 --> 00:01:03,313
There's no one out there.

28
00:01:03,318 --> 00:01:03,868
There's so many of them.

29
00:01:03,873 --> 00:01:07,483
There's no one out there who's
empathetic to a bull shark.

30
00:01:07,483 --> 00:01:08,743
So I've got no problem.

31
00:01:09,118 --> 00:01:11,128
Eradicating them, absolutely none.

32
00:01:11,188 --> 00:01:14,158
But I'm, I'm gonna have Peter on my
shoulder and saying whatever, but I

33
00:01:14,158 --> 00:01:15,598
just don't, they're good for nothing.

34
00:01:15,658 --> 00:01:18,298
Today in this episode of the How to
Protect the ocean Podcast, we are

35
00:01:18,298 --> 00:01:21,598
gonna be talking about why these
events happen, what the data has

36
00:01:21,598 --> 00:01:25,678
shown that's happened in the past,
and how we can reduce shark human risk

37
00:01:25,794 --> 00:01:26,574
in the future.

38
00:01:26,604 --> 00:01:28,975
That's on this episode of the
How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

39
00:01:29,304 --> 00:01:30,175
Let's start the show.

40
00:01:30,414 --> 00:01:30,895
Hey everybody.

41
00:01:30,895 --> 00:01:34,164
Welcome back to another exciting episode
of the How to Protect the ocean Podcast.

42
00:01:34,164 --> 00:01:37,464
I am your host, Andrew Lewin, Marine
biologist and science communicator here

43
00:01:37,464 --> 00:01:40,374
to tell you what's happening with the
ocean, how you can speak up for the

44
00:01:40,374 --> 00:01:41,339
ocean, and what you can do to live for

45
00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,210
for better ocean by taking action.

46
00:01:44,270 --> 00:01:47,270
And on today's episode, we're gonna
be talking about the four bull

47
00:01:47,270 --> 00:01:51,050
shark incidences, shark bites
that happen in less than 48

48
00:01:51,050 --> 00:01:52,826
hours in Australia, near Sydney.

49
00:01:52,936 --> 00:01:56,960
One happened in Sydney Harbour and
others happened nearby beaches.

50
00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:58,520
Manley Beaches, one of them.

51
00:01:58,633 --> 00:02:02,611
And we're gonna talk a little bit
about like why this stuff is happening.

52
00:02:02,711 --> 00:02:05,861
Every time when there's some kind
of shark incident, there's a lot of

53
00:02:05,861 --> 00:02:07,901
out of pocket kind of takes on it.

54
00:02:07,931 --> 00:02:12,584
Just like we showed in this intro, there
was a daytime talk show in Australia where

55
00:02:12,584 --> 00:02:16,724
the person was like, Hey, look like these
are just garbage can type bull sharks.

56
00:02:16,834 --> 00:02:18,694
These sharks are not really iconic.

57
00:02:18,694 --> 00:02:20,071
They're not really what people love.

58
00:02:20,171 --> 00:02:22,391
I'm just fine if we eradicate all of them.

59
00:02:22,391 --> 00:02:25,698
Like he just wanted to go eradicate all
and thinking that's going to decrease any

60
00:02:25,698 --> 00:02:30,048
kind of shark human interactions instead
of just adapting and living with these

61
00:02:30,048 --> 00:02:33,858
interactions and finding out what we can
do more about it rather than just taking

62
00:02:33,858 --> 00:02:35,838
these out of pocket takes, in my opinion.

63
00:02:35,951 --> 00:02:39,731
But before we get into the science
and, sort of the ideas that people

64
00:02:39,731 --> 00:02:41,201
have and what we should be doing.

65
00:02:41,201 --> 00:02:45,858
I wanted to just be respectful
of the people who were bitten.

66
00:02:45,968 --> 00:02:46,793
A person lost his life.

67
00:02:47,073 --> 00:02:50,493
It looks like a little boy, a
12-year-old boy may lose his life.

68
00:02:50,493 --> 00:02:51,873
He's in critical condition.

69
00:02:51,993 --> 00:02:55,609
Last reports that I saw, it didn't
look like he was gonna make it through.

70
00:02:55,713 --> 00:02:57,813
This is the utmost tragedy.

71
00:02:57,843 --> 00:03:01,623
Anytime somebody loses a life or
anytime someone's bitten and is in

72
00:03:01,623 --> 00:03:05,113
critical condition, doesn't matter,
child or adult, it hits hard.

73
00:03:05,313 --> 00:03:07,266
And it's something that
we have to respect.

74
00:03:07,366 --> 00:03:10,636
I'm not going to talk about what
they were thinking of or try to

75
00:03:10,636 --> 00:03:13,283
assume what they were thinking of
when they were going into the water.

76
00:03:13,396 --> 00:03:17,733
I'm not going to discuss if this is
something that was appropriate or not.

77
00:03:17,843 --> 00:03:20,423
What I'm going to do is
focus on the science.

78
00:03:20,423 --> 00:03:24,593
I'm going to focus on what we know of
bull sharks in this area at this time

79
00:03:24,593 --> 00:03:28,148
of year, what we know about some of the
environmental conditions in this area.

80
00:03:28,549 --> 00:03:31,759
And things that we can do to
reduce the risk of things like

81
00:03:31,759 --> 00:03:33,589
this happening in the future again.

82
00:03:33,699 --> 00:03:35,416
This is not something we want to see.

83
00:03:35,526 --> 00:03:39,216
Whether you're a shark advocate or
you care more about the humans or

84
00:03:39,216 --> 00:03:41,139
both obviously 'cause we both care.

85
00:03:41,243 --> 00:03:44,663
If you're watching this show or listening
to this show, you care about whether

86
00:03:44,663 --> 00:03:48,293
people are hurt by sharks, and also you
care about how people look at sharks

87
00:03:48,293 --> 00:03:50,093
after some of these incidents happen.

88
00:03:50,196 --> 00:03:52,206
So that's what we're gonna
be focusing on today.

89
00:03:52,236 --> 00:03:55,026
We're not gonna be focusing on the
assumption of what people were thinking.

90
00:03:55,136 --> 00:03:58,376
We're not gonna be taking away
anything from what happened to them.

91
00:03:58,376 --> 00:04:00,356
You just never know when
these things happen.

92
00:04:00,463 --> 00:04:02,539
But we are gonna focus in on the science.

93
00:04:02,539 --> 00:04:06,319
So let's start with something
that we should be looking at.

94
00:04:06,319 --> 00:04:10,069
And let's not get lost in the panic
of something like this happening.

95
00:04:10,069 --> 00:04:13,469
Although it's very rare that this
happens obviously has happened

96
00:04:13,469 --> 00:04:14,939
and we have to acknowledge it.

97
00:04:15,043 --> 00:04:18,213
But the thing is, bull sharks have
been present around Sydney Harbour

98
00:04:18,283 --> 00:04:20,233
and nearby New South Wales coasts.

99
00:04:20,339 --> 00:04:21,390
That's not new thing.

100
00:04:21,390 --> 00:04:23,159
They've been doing this for a long time.

101
00:04:23,159 --> 00:04:26,609
Sciences have been tracking sharks in
Sydney Harbour and documenting patterns

102
00:04:26,609 --> 00:04:28,679
of occurrence in seasonality for years.

103
00:04:28,679 --> 00:04:33,269
One study that I found in PLOS One
mapped out how different shark species

104
00:04:33,269 --> 00:04:36,516
use different parts of Sydney Harbour
and at different times of the year.

105
00:04:36,626 --> 00:04:40,706
Specifically noting that this kind of
information has implications for managing

106
00:04:40,706 --> 00:04:44,906
human shark interactions, including
education programs and modifying human

107
00:04:44,906 --> 00:04:46,856
behavior during high risk periods.

108
00:04:46,953 --> 00:04:50,343
Even more directly, a long-term
acoustic telemetry study followed

109
00:04:50,343 --> 00:04:53,133
dozens of bull sharks in Sydney
Harbour over multiple years and

110
00:04:53,133 --> 00:04:57,543
described their residency and movement
pattern in a large temperate estuary

111
00:04:57,624 --> 00:04:59,724
where human activity is high.

112
00:04:59,824 --> 00:05:01,894
So we know that these
bull sharks are there.

113
00:05:01,894 --> 00:05:04,164
We know that they've been
there for multiple years.

114
00:05:04,268 --> 00:05:06,068
This is something that isn't new.

115
00:05:06,168 --> 00:05:09,108
There are some conflicting reports
that people are saying, oh, we're

116
00:05:09,108 --> 00:05:11,088
seeing more bull sharks around.

117
00:05:11,185 --> 00:05:12,145
Fishers have said that.

118
00:05:12,145 --> 00:05:14,035
I've seen a lot of
comments being like, Hey.

119
00:05:14,035 --> 00:05:17,075
The bull shark population has
increased unprecedentedly.

120
00:05:17,185 --> 00:05:21,385
And this is something that can't be
confirmed or denied at this point.

121
00:05:21,385 --> 00:05:24,745
All I know is that people know
that there are bull sharks in

122
00:05:24,745 --> 00:05:26,441
the area at this time of year.

123
00:05:26,551 --> 00:05:29,888
We know that their
population has a range, but

124
00:05:29,888 --> 00:05:33,581
scientists haven't noticed any
massive increase, so we can't

125
00:05:33,581 --> 00:05:34,961
speak to any of that increase.

126
00:05:34,961 --> 00:05:38,351
In other words, there's no physical
evidence or there's no population

127
00:05:38,351 --> 00:05:41,621
evidence that I found before I
joined this show that had that.

128
00:05:41,681 --> 00:05:43,361
And it's not just the
Harbour that they're found.

129
00:05:43,361 --> 00:05:44,981
A multi-year tagging and monitoring

130
00:05:44,981 --> 00:05:49,031
study also found in New South Wales
beaches that tracked hundreds of bull

131
00:05:49,031 --> 00:05:52,241
sharks and examined when and where
larger bull sharks are more actively to

132
00:05:52,241 --> 00:05:56,878
be present, finding seasonal patterns
that matter for beach risk management.

133
00:05:56,878 --> 00:05:59,848
So in other words, when it's
really hot outside like 20 to

134
00:05:59,848 --> 00:06:03,418
26 degrees Celsius, maybe even
higher, these bull sharks are there.

135
00:06:03,515 --> 00:06:06,335
And so they will come close to
shore during these times because

136
00:06:06,335 --> 00:06:07,745
they like the warmer periods.

137
00:06:07,858 --> 00:06:11,355
Anything below 21 or 20 degrees
Celsius, they're not there.

138
00:06:11,355 --> 00:06:14,415
In Sydney Harbour, other shark
species are found in areas where

139
00:06:14,415 --> 00:06:16,395
it's cooler than 20 degrees.

140
00:06:16,395 --> 00:06:19,655
So, there is definitely a pattern
here, a spatial pattern and

141
00:06:19,655 --> 00:06:21,335
seasonality pattern that we see.

142
00:06:21,335 --> 00:06:25,235
So when we talk about why is this
happening now, part of the answer is

143
00:06:25,235 --> 00:06:30,185
because bull sharks predictably use these
waters and particularly in warmer months.

144
00:06:30,185 --> 00:06:31,111
So in the summer months.

145
00:06:31,215 --> 00:06:34,605
I know right now, like I'm
recording this on a Sunday evening.

146
00:06:34,715 --> 00:06:38,268
There's a massive snowstorm, like we're
getting 30, maybe even more centimeters

147
00:06:38,268 --> 00:06:42,243
out here in Ontario, so it's winter here,
but in Australia it's summer, it's hot.

148
00:06:42,733 --> 00:06:45,943
And so you're gonna find bull sharks
predictably in the warmer months

149
00:06:45,943 --> 00:06:48,673
and scientists have been
documented for a long time.

150
00:06:48,733 --> 00:06:51,013
Now, why these incidents
are likely happen?

151
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,750
Let's talk about conditions, because
conditions actually matter here.

152
00:06:54,750 --> 00:06:55,830
We have warmer months.

153
00:06:55,830 --> 00:06:58,620
We know that these sharks are in there,
the bull sharks are in there, and the

154
00:06:58,620 --> 00:07:00,720
warmer ones, especially in Sydney Harbour.

155
00:07:00,830 --> 00:07:04,490
But bull sharks are strongly associated,
not only with warm water and coastal

156
00:07:04,490 --> 00:07:09,350
systems including estuaries and areas
of highly influenced by freshwater flow.

157
00:07:09,350 --> 00:07:12,980
So they have this ability to go up
into freshwater rivers, estuaries,

158
00:07:12,980 --> 00:07:16,483
and go into the freshwater area and
in areas where you can't see them.

159
00:07:16,483 --> 00:07:17,293
It's not very clear.

160
00:07:17,293 --> 00:07:20,443
When you look at a river system,
they're not always perfectly clear.

161
00:07:20,533 --> 00:07:22,300
A lot of the times you
get a lot of sediment.

162
00:07:22,413 --> 00:07:25,721
You might get some pollution in there
but it's pretty turbid in those areas

163
00:07:25,721 --> 00:07:28,271
'cause usually it's shallow, there's
a lot of sediment that's around it.

164
00:07:28,385 --> 00:07:30,985
And if it's in a area where there's
a lot of sediment that's going in,

165
00:07:30,985 --> 00:07:35,335
or it's faster, you might start to
see it be essentially brown or darker

166
00:07:35,335 --> 00:07:36,925
or, just you can't see through it.

167
00:07:37,031 --> 00:07:41,028
And so you'll see a lot of that turbidity
in there and those sharks can come in

168
00:07:41,028 --> 00:07:42,768
and you don't even realize they're there.

169
00:07:42,881 --> 00:07:47,211
And that's been a lot of the times where
the bull sharks are notorious for having

170
00:07:47,241 --> 00:07:51,665
shark human incidences when they come
into these areas where you can't see them.

171
00:07:51,768 --> 00:07:52,658
They're just there.

172
00:07:52,765 --> 00:07:54,058
They can't see very well.

173
00:07:54,161 --> 00:07:57,221
They end up taking a bite or
an exploratory bite, whether

174
00:07:57,221 --> 00:07:58,828
they find it intriguing or not.

175
00:07:58,928 --> 00:08:02,028
And they go for it because they're looking
for food and they're in hunting mode.

176
00:08:02,141 --> 00:08:06,911
And so when you have all that in those
estuaries, in those river systems, you

177
00:08:06,911 --> 00:08:10,841
get more shark human interactions if
there are people in those river systems.

178
00:08:10,841 --> 00:08:12,551
We've seen that not only in Australia.

179
00:08:12,551 --> 00:08:15,971
We've seen in Africa, we've seen it
everywhere where bull sharks are.

180
00:08:16,131 --> 00:08:18,021
You have to be careful in those areas.

181
00:08:18,021 --> 00:08:22,749
So they use any area that it could be
turbid, it could be more fresh water.

182
00:08:22,749 --> 00:08:24,303
They could be up in the estuaries.

183
00:08:24,413 --> 00:08:28,103
Long-term tracking has worked, links
their presence and then their movement to

184
00:08:28,103 --> 00:08:31,823
predictable seasonal patterns and habitat
use within a Harbour system where there's

185
00:08:31,823 --> 00:08:34,133
a lot of entries of different estuaries.

186
00:08:34,223 --> 00:08:36,796
And so that's been a thing
that they've had to look at.

187
00:08:36,896 --> 00:08:39,441
Now you add summer rainfall in this area.

188
00:08:39,441 --> 00:08:43,251
There's some season for Australia, as
far as I'm told, some pretty heavy rain.

189
00:08:43,251 --> 00:08:47,271
So in summer storms you often get
increased runoff into coastal waters

190
00:08:47,271 --> 00:08:51,831
and Harbour systems that runoff can turn
the water murky and reduce visibility.

191
00:08:51,928 --> 00:08:54,508
Bull sharks are adapted to low
visibility environments, like I

192
00:08:54,508 --> 00:08:56,248
said, so they'll be in murky waters.

193
00:08:56,423 --> 00:09:00,983
Risk can increase because the visibility
cues that humans rely on drop fast

194
00:09:00,983 --> 00:09:05,003
and bull sharks do not rely on their
vision the way people assume sharks do.

195
00:09:05,153 --> 00:09:08,993
They use multiple senses, including
electroreception and vibration cues.

196
00:09:08,993 --> 00:09:12,019
So they have the ampullae of
lorenzi across their snout.

197
00:09:12,119 --> 00:09:15,411
And so they detect like
electromagnetic fields or even

198
00:09:15,411 --> 00:09:18,051
electromagnetic movements in muscles.

199
00:09:18,111 --> 00:09:20,661
So that's how they tell if there's
something there which could be part

200
00:09:20,661 --> 00:09:24,231
of the why that they thrive in turbine
systems 'cause they don't use sight.

201
00:09:24,341 --> 00:09:28,721
So essentially in murky waters, the
odds of a mistaken bite can increase.

202
00:09:28,834 --> 00:09:31,474
That's not a moral statement,
it's just a risk assessment.

203
00:09:31,474 --> 00:09:31,654
Right?

204
00:09:31,654 --> 00:09:32,554
It's a risk statement.

205
00:09:32,658 --> 00:09:33,828
Clusters can happen.

206
00:09:33,828 --> 00:09:37,578
So a small number of high profile
incidences close together can be

207
00:09:37,578 --> 00:09:39,468
driven by a temporary overlap.

208
00:09:39,468 --> 00:09:43,698
So you got warm waters, seasonal
presence, high beach use with people

209
00:09:43,698 --> 00:09:46,428
'cause it's summer and short-term
environmental shifts, you know,

210
00:09:46,428 --> 00:09:47,778
summer rains and things like that.

211
00:09:47,878 --> 00:09:51,748
Long-term science base is what
helps us talk about this overlap

212
00:09:51,748 --> 00:09:53,518
with clarity instead of fear.

213
00:09:53,614 --> 00:09:56,104
Scientists have known that
these incidences can be at

214
00:09:56,104 --> 00:09:57,814
higher risk during this time.

215
00:09:57,911 --> 00:10:01,421
And so the question is, is how
come people don't know about it?

216
00:10:01,531 --> 00:10:04,381
I looked through and I saw a lot of
scientific journals talking about

217
00:10:04,381 --> 00:10:07,411
this, but let's be honest, we know
from a scientific journal standpoint,

218
00:10:07,411 --> 00:10:09,481
from a scientist myself, we know that

219
00:10:09,481 --> 00:10:11,531
these scientific journals
can be exclusive.

220
00:10:11,638 --> 00:10:13,048
They don't get to everybody.

221
00:10:13,048 --> 00:10:15,808
They don't get to lifeguards, they
don't get to beach managers, they

222
00:10:15,808 --> 00:10:20,248
don't get to police, they don't get to
firefighters and paramedics to educate

223
00:10:20,248 --> 00:10:24,598
them on the risk unless there are
programs in place for that to happen.

224
00:10:24,704 --> 00:10:27,384
We look at this and we're like, why
isn't this happening every year?

225
00:10:27,508 --> 00:10:30,824
In this case is obviously it's a
larger case in a shorter time.

226
00:10:30,934 --> 00:10:32,914
But the risk isn't just sharks.

227
00:10:33,031 --> 00:10:35,401
It's sharks plus the
conditions plus people.

228
00:10:35,611 --> 00:10:37,921
Everything has to happen at the same time.

229
00:10:38,024 --> 00:10:39,824
So some years have
different rainfall patterns.

230
00:10:39,824 --> 00:10:43,124
So you know, sometimes it's not as
hard or it's not happening all at once.

231
00:10:43,221 --> 00:10:46,341
You have different water clarity,
different ocean graphic conditions.

232
00:10:46,341 --> 00:10:49,521
You have different surf conditions
and different levels of exposure

233
00:10:49,581 --> 00:10:50,991
from swivels and surfers.

234
00:10:51,098 --> 00:10:53,658
So this is why year to year,
the bite numbers fluctuate.

235
00:10:53,828 --> 00:10:57,034
So sometimes you'll see like an increase
like this year because the conditions

236
00:10:57,034 --> 00:10:58,054
just kind of matched everything.

237
00:10:58,054 --> 00:11:01,351
So not only was it the summer months,
not only was there high rainfall,

238
00:11:01,351 --> 00:11:04,711
and not only were there people coming
in more towards beaches or trying to

239
00:11:04,711 --> 00:11:06,464
jump off a rock or things like that.

240
00:11:06,574 --> 00:11:09,964
It was just a lot of things happen
together that risk increases.

241
00:11:10,074 --> 00:11:13,104
So the level of exposure to
swimmers and surfers will increase.

242
00:11:13,208 --> 00:11:17,288
And there is another layer that is
becoming more important is warming oceans.

243
00:11:17,385 --> 00:11:20,865
A recent paper reports that migrating
bull sharks have increased residency

244
00:11:20,865 --> 00:11:25,363
at summering rounds off Sydney over
a long time series with a trend of

245
00:11:25,363 --> 00:11:28,603
longer seasonal presence, so they're
staying there longer, which has

246
00:11:28,603 --> 00:11:32,683
implications for how New South Wales
communities may need to adapt to risk

247
00:11:32,683 --> 00:11:34,903
for messaging and monitoring over time.

248
00:11:35,016 --> 00:11:38,706
We wanna make sure that people aren't
going in the water when there times where

249
00:11:38,706 --> 00:11:40,236
these bull sharks are close to shore.

250
00:11:40,410 --> 00:11:43,200
When they're in the warmer waters, when
they're in turbid waters and they can't

251
00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,470
see you just as much as you can't see
them, that becomes a dangerous time.

252
00:11:46,566 --> 00:11:48,396
And so people need to be educated

253
00:11:48,396 --> 00:11:49,043
better.

254
00:11:49,203 --> 00:11:52,263
Not to say that they're not educated
now, but obviously there are some

255
00:11:52,263 --> 00:11:55,893
people who haven't gotten the message
as much as they could have and went

256
00:11:55,893 --> 00:11:59,103
in the water instead of staying
outta the water during these times.

257
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,213
So it doesn't mean that more bites
are inevitable but it does mean

258
00:12:02,213 --> 00:12:06,320
that the window of overlap between
people and bull sharks could expand.

259
00:12:06,433 --> 00:12:10,663
And that is a management and education
challenge, not a reason for a panic

260
00:12:10,663 --> 00:12:13,453
response like eradicating these animals.

261
00:12:13,543 --> 00:12:17,113
When you get incidences like this,
people want something immediate.

262
00:12:17,273 --> 00:12:20,873
And even in the clip that I showed
you at the beginning of this episode,

263
00:12:20,873 --> 00:12:24,473
someone was saying, Hey, look, if this
happened to me, like, you know, if my

264
00:12:24,473 --> 00:12:30,413
child or my relative or a friend got
bitten by a shark and their life was

265
00:12:30,473 --> 00:12:34,410
altered, whether it was fatally or
otherwise, they even admitted they like,

266
00:12:34,410 --> 00:12:36,420
they would want to see the oceans drain.

267
00:12:36,420 --> 00:12:37,680
Like could go to extremes, right?

268
00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:40,770
You know, I want, I get all rid of all
the bull sharks in a minute, but this

269
00:12:40,770 --> 00:12:43,260
is not like a call feels immediate.

270
00:12:43,420 --> 00:12:45,880
But there are three problems
that almost never get said out

271
00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:47,320
loud in these public debates.

272
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:48,160
So the problem one.

273
00:12:48,270 --> 00:12:49,350
Bull sharks move.

274
00:12:49,410 --> 00:12:54,030
Removing some animals in one place
does not erase the risk in that place.

275
00:12:54,030 --> 00:12:57,090
So other animals may come in
because there's less competition.

276
00:12:57,251 --> 00:12:57,911
Problem two.

277
00:12:57,941 --> 00:13:01,931
Lethal control often kills
non-target species and can create

278
00:13:01,931 --> 00:13:06,431
ecological harm without proving
long-term reduction in bite risk.

279
00:13:06,701 --> 00:13:09,671
So by eradicating all them, obviously
it's not gonna change anything.

280
00:13:09,781 --> 00:13:11,161
Other animals get may get cut.

281
00:13:11,161 --> 00:13:14,251
Other species, they're just probably gonna
look for species that are big enough.

282
00:13:14,281 --> 00:13:17,778
We've seen these called programs
happen in Australia in the past.

283
00:13:17,878 --> 00:13:19,318
It's very interesting to see this.

284
00:13:19,418 --> 00:13:20,148
Problem three.

285
00:13:20,608 --> 00:13:24,803
It shifts focus away from
what actually reduces risk.

286
00:13:24,803 --> 00:13:28,463
So information, surveillance,
warnings and behavior change.

287
00:13:28,583 --> 00:13:29,783
Those are the biggest things.

288
00:13:29,903 --> 00:13:31,570
So those three problems need to be solved.

289
00:13:31,666 --> 00:13:35,746
And that leads us into the most important
part of this episode, which is basically

290
00:13:35,926 --> 00:13:38,746
what actually helps people stay safe.

291
00:13:38,776 --> 00:13:42,376
So in New South Wales, there are
documented programs where scientists,

292
00:13:42,376 --> 00:13:46,615
government agencies, and surf
life saving personnel are actively

293
00:13:46,615 --> 00:13:49,945
involved in surveillance, public
warnings, and risk reduction.

294
00:13:50,055 --> 00:13:54,855
New South Wales Shark Smart Program
describes a multi-layered shark management

295
00:13:54,855 --> 00:13:58,545
approach that includes surveillance
technology such as drone patrols,

296
00:13:58,635 --> 00:14:02,085
operate through surf Life Saving and
New South Wales as part of the New

297
00:14:02,085 --> 00:14:04,765
South Wales Shark Management program.

298
00:14:04,855 --> 00:14:06,145
These drones are not just for show.

299
00:14:06,145 --> 00:14:09,345
If you go on Shark Smart's own
website, they describe that the

300
00:14:09,345 --> 00:14:13,905
drones allow lifesavers to spot sharks
respond quickly, including actions

301
00:14:13,905 --> 00:14:15,495
to clear the water when needed.

302
00:14:15,495 --> 00:14:17,055
So if they see bull sharks close by.

303
00:14:17,155 --> 00:14:18,895
You can fly a drone over quickly.

304
00:14:19,005 --> 00:14:20,175
You can do a patrol.

305
00:14:20,275 --> 00:14:23,035
You can see if there's sharks in
the water, and then you can say,

306
00:14:23,035 --> 00:14:24,385
Hey, you know what, let's come out.

307
00:14:24,498 --> 00:14:27,048
These sharks look big, or these sharks
look like they can do some damage.

308
00:14:27,161 --> 00:14:29,411
Let's make sure our beachgoers are
safe and our swimmers are safe.

309
00:14:29,411 --> 00:14:30,945
Let's take them outta the water.

310
00:14:31,185 --> 00:14:34,755
So recent reporting also documents New
South Wales expanding these efforts

311
00:14:34,755 --> 00:14:37,935
after this cluster of incidences,
including additional investment

312
00:14:37,935 --> 00:14:41,985
tied to surveillance, bull shark
tagging and shark safety education

313
00:14:42,135 --> 00:14:45,885
and expanding drone coverage to
more beaches through peak season.

314
00:14:45,885 --> 00:14:49,485
So there's gonna be more investment into
that safety, which is what we want to see.

315
00:14:49,485 --> 00:14:51,901
We don't wanna see people go
out and culling these animals.

316
00:14:51,901 --> 00:14:55,348
We wanna make sure that we can
properly fit ourselves with the

317
00:14:55,348 --> 00:14:58,918
technology that they can go out
and they can see what can be done

318
00:14:58,918 --> 00:15:00,471
and make sure that people are safe.

319
00:15:00,581 --> 00:15:04,511
So when someone asks, are scientists
actually working with lifeguards?

320
00:15:04,511 --> 00:15:08,201
The answer in New South Wales is
actually, yes, and through an ongoing

321
00:15:08,201 --> 00:15:13,061
program that includes surf lifesaving
patrols, surveillance technology,

322
00:15:13,151 --> 00:15:18,161
shark listening stations for tagged
animals and public education components.

323
00:15:18,281 --> 00:15:20,141
This is what prevention looks like.

324
00:15:20,191 --> 00:15:22,921
What you really need to
hear is actionable clarity.

325
00:15:23,025 --> 00:15:27,105
So if you're swimming in waters where
bull sharks are known to occur, or where

326
00:15:27,105 --> 00:15:32,295
estuaries and river mouths influence water
conditions, avoid swimming after heavy

327
00:15:32,295 --> 00:15:34,935
rains especially, when the water is murky.

328
00:15:35,035 --> 00:15:39,635
Be cautious in your river mouths and
Harbour entrances after runoff events.

329
00:15:40,145 --> 00:15:44,165
Pay attention to beach warnings, drone
alerts, and lifeguard instructions.

330
00:15:44,271 --> 00:15:47,961
Just to add on to that, if you're in a
new area, if you're a tourist or you're

331
00:15:47,961 --> 00:15:51,771
somewhere in a new beach, make sure you
know the color symbols of the flags of

332
00:15:51,771 --> 00:15:53,811
what's danger and what's safe to go into.

333
00:15:53,961 --> 00:15:56,721
A lot of these flags systems
could be quite sophisticated.

334
00:15:56,835 --> 00:15:57,975
They'll have purple flags.

335
00:15:57,975 --> 00:15:59,535
They'll have green flags,
they'll have red flags.

336
00:15:59,535 --> 00:16:00,405
They'll have yellow flags.

337
00:16:00,515 --> 00:16:01,385
They'll have blue flags.

338
00:16:01,385 --> 00:16:02,915
They'll have flags with lines in them.

339
00:16:03,018 --> 00:16:04,008
Learn what they are.

340
00:16:04,008 --> 00:16:07,865
There should be signage posting to see
like if there's a dangerous animal in

341
00:16:07,865 --> 00:16:10,205
the area or if it's like a rip current.

342
00:16:10,301 --> 00:16:14,471
There's all these different signs and
flags to make sure that you are safe.

343
00:16:14,621 --> 00:16:18,161
Ensure that you look at those flags
before you even step onto the beach

344
00:16:18,161 --> 00:16:21,521
or before you even go into the water
because that could save your life.

345
00:16:21,521 --> 00:16:23,411
' cause you just never know
what's happening to the beach.

346
00:16:23,411 --> 00:16:24,791
A beach could look perfectly fine.

347
00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:27,803
Maybe have a few ways, but you have
no idea if there's a rip current.

348
00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:30,000
You have no idea if there's an
animal out there, if you're not

349
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,320
paying attention to the signage.

350
00:16:31,436 --> 00:16:35,546
You could also even go up to lifeguard
stations and ask them, Hey, like, is there

351
00:16:35,546 --> 00:16:38,576
anything dangerous in the water or is
there anything I should know about this?

352
00:16:38,576 --> 00:16:40,386
And they'll have a frank
conversation with you.

353
00:16:40,386 --> 00:16:42,606
They might be a little bit more
conservative and be like, there're always

354
00:16:42,606 --> 00:16:45,426
animals that might be able to hurt you
in there, so you are taking a risk.

355
00:16:45,523 --> 00:16:49,513
But we haven't seen any so far, like
that's been outward, like a concern.

356
00:16:49,513 --> 00:16:52,666
So that's something that you can go
through, especially in Australia.

357
00:16:52,773 --> 00:16:56,373
If you're on a remote beach or
you pass by certain areas, I

358
00:16:56,373 --> 00:16:57,903
would just be very cautious.

359
00:16:57,903 --> 00:17:00,723
There are a lot of animals in
there in the river systems and

360
00:17:00,723 --> 00:17:02,493
so forth that could harm you.

361
00:17:02,493 --> 00:17:04,173
And so make sure that you
know where you're going.

362
00:17:04,173 --> 00:17:06,303
We've done episodes on
this podcast before.

363
00:17:06,453 --> 00:17:07,443
We've talked about how

364
00:17:07,443 --> 00:17:11,673
talking to locals before you go out into a
river or a lake, especially in Australia,

365
00:17:11,673 --> 00:17:13,563
could really help you in saving your life.

366
00:17:13,563 --> 00:17:15,813
'cause there's a lot of crocs in
these areas and you gotta be careful,

367
00:17:15,813 --> 00:17:18,603
not necessarily in Sydney, but
definitely in the northern edges.

368
00:17:18,713 --> 00:17:20,873
But also talk to any locals
before you go out there.

369
00:17:21,083 --> 00:17:21,923
And of course the last point.

370
00:17:22,016 --> 00:17:25,166
If beaches are temporarily closed,
treated at that as prevention.

371
00:17:25,531 --> 00:17:26,581
Not an inconvenience.

372
00:17:26,581 --> 00:17:29,191
Don't just say, oh, I came all the
way out here to go to the beach.

373
00:17:29,191 --> 00:17:30,211
I'm gonna the beach no matter what.

374
00:17:30,211 --> 00:17:32,941
If they close the beach, there's
a reason why they close the beach.

375
00:17:33,048 --> 00:17:36,288
So just be cautious and maybe like,
you know what, today's just not the

376
00:17:36,288 --> 00:17:37,548
day that I'm going into the ocean.

377
00:17:37,548 --> 00:17:40,278
So these are the kind of behavior
changes that a science and form

378
00:17:40,278 --> 00:17:42,498
lifeguard system is designed to support.

379
00:17:42,738 --> 00:17:46,608
And in New South Wales is actively
expanding surveillance and education

380
00:17:46,608 --> 00:17:48,648
efforts around exactly this problem.

381
00:17:48,878 --> 00:17:52,871
So should there be an eradication
of bull sharks after, you know,

382
00:17:52,871 --> 00:17:55,001
four incidences in 48 hours?

383
00:17:55,141 --> 00:17:56,941
Eradication is not the strategy.

384
00:17:56,971 --> 00:17:58,561
It's an emotional reaction.

385
00:17:58,668 --> 00:18:02,418
The strategy is what New South Wales
and other regions increasingly focus on.

386
00:18:02,883 --> 00:18:08,103
Surveillance, tagging and detection,
education and real-time risk communication

387
00:18:08,103 --> 00:18:12,093
paired with clear public guidelines
during these high risk conditions.

388
00:18:12,273 --> 00:18:15,243
And if we wanna honor the people who
have been affected by these tragedies,

389
00:18:15,243 --> 00:18:19,143
we do it by reducing the chance that
another family can get that phone call

390
00:18:19,143 --> 00:18:22,023
using evidence and prevention, not fear.

391
00:18:22,143 --> 00:18:25,303
I would love to hear your comments and
what you think about these incidences

392
00:18:25,323 --> 00:18:29,403
and what I've talked about here in terms
of the prevention and further investment

393
00:18:29,403 --> 00:18:32,973
into prevention and surveillance
and science and research.

394
00:18:33,063 --> 00:18:33,873
Love to hear your thoughts.

395
00:18:33,873 --> 00:18:35,193
Let me know in the comments below.

396
00:18:35,193 --> 00:18:37,863
If you're listening to this on audio,
you're listening to this through your

397
00:18:37,863 --> 00:18:41,793
favorite podcast app, whether it be Apple
Podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music, whatever

398
00:18:41,793 --> 00:18:45,573
that might be, let me know what you
think by going to speak up for blue.com.

399
00:18:45,813 --> 00:18:49,323
Speak up for blue.com/feedback.

400
00:18:49,323 --> 00:18:52,023
Speak up for blue.com/feedback.

401
00:18:52,023 --> 00:18:53,550
I'd love to hear what you have to say.

402
00:18:53,650 --> 00:18:55,690
You can either leave a voicemail
or you can write it out.

403
00:18:55,690 --> 00:18:57,910
And of course, if you're watching this
on YouTube, you can do the same thing.

404
00:18:58,003 --> 00:18:59,023
I always love to hear from you.

405
00:18:59,023 --> 00:19:01,393
This is the start of a
conversation, not the end.

406
00:19:01,496 --> 00:19:04,606
We wanna continue these conversations
around safety, around prevention.

407
00:19:04,681 --> 00:19:06,295
Love to hear your experiences.

408
00:19:06,395 --> 00:19:09,141
Love to hear what's going on in a
beach near you, wherever you live.

409
00:19:09,235 --> 00:19:11,784
So I wanna thank you so much for
joining me on today's episode of the

410
00:19:11,784 --> 00:19:13,074
How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

411
00:19:13,074 --> 00:19:15,745
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from
the True Nord Strong and Free.

412
00:19:15,745 --> 00:19:16,375
Have a great day.

413
00:19:16,375 --> 00:19:18,471
We'll talk to you next
time and Happy Conservation.