Will the US move towards Deep-Sea Mining? What’s Really at Stake for the Ocean and Our Future

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Over the past number of years, I've
had Dr. Andrew Thaler on the podcast

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to talk about deep sea mining.

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It is a very interesting topic to discuss,
but it's also one of the scariest things

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because we just don't know at all anything
about the deep sea compared to what

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we're gonna do to the deep sea by mining
these polymetallic nodules and extracting

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them from the surface and bringing
them up to the surface of the Ocean.

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This is something that we need to
talk about, and I've had Andrew on

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a number of times, but this time we
had him on because he contacted me.

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He's like, Hey, Andrew.

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Do you wanna talk about how I testified
at a congress committee on deep sea mining

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last week, and I was like, absolutely.

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I watched some of it.

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I was very intrigued.

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It was very cool to see my buddy Andrew
on tv or on YouTube, I guess where it

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was shown, but also surrounded really in
between two of the biggest CEOs in deep

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sea mining history, I guess at this point.

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'cause there's not much
history, but there is history.

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And so we talked about what it was like
to testify, how he decided to testify and

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what it was all about and how he felt.

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So we're gonna talk about that.

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On today's episode of the How to Protect
the Ocean Podcast, let's start the show.

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Hey everybody.

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Welcome back to another exciting episode
of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, Marine
biologist and science communicator

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here to tell you what's happening with
the Ocean, how you can speak up for

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the Ocean, and what you can do to live
for a better Ocean by taking action.

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Now, over the last month or so, or
maybe two months, we've seen a lot

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of requests for information on deep
sea mining for the American Samoa.

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We've seen it for the Marion Islands.

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We've seen it now going to part like
a little different type of mining for

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Virginia, and now it was just about to
be released Alaska, that they're looking

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to do deep sea mining up in Alaska.

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And we saw, you know what the
expectation is for public comment,

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people can put in their public comments.

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We saw what those comments were for
American Samoa, for Marion Islands,

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it was very heavily in favor against.

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Doing any type of deep sea mining
without more information and how

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it will benefit those islands
because it's messing up their sea.

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It's very far from mainland US and it's
messing up the territories around them

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and what's gonna happen to their islands.

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Those are the ones that are gonna be
affected, And so we're seeing a lot

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of that build up the public comment.

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But the other parts.

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Process, our public hearings and
these hearings are very important

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to find out what we have on
record, no matter what happens.

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To have on record the advantages and
disadvantages of doing deep sea mining.

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And Dr. Andrew Thaler, a good friend of
mine, a colleague friend of the podcast,

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has been on this podcast a number of times
to talk about deep sea mining among other

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things, all the other stuff that he does.

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This is sort of like his true
core talking points and what he

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knows about, he did his PhD on it.

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He was the editor of the
Deep Sea Observer, which is a

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magazine, the industry magazine.

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He talked to the CEOs of the metals
company, talked to a bunch of other

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CEOs, got to know the industry, got
to be plugged into the industry.

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But being a scientist and a
deep sea ecologist, so really

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understanding and bringing to light.

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All the environmental factors that
play into how dangerous this could

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be for the future of our planet,
for the future of our Ocean.

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And so having him on the podcast
to talk about how he testified at a

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congressional committee on deep sea
mining was very enlightening for me.

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It was very cool to
have him on the podcast.

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He came in, he was jazzed up to do this.

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He emailed me over the week and he said,
Hey, you know what I wanna talk about?

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Do you wanna talk about it in the pockets?

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I said, absolutely, I do.

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We got a time together
and we put it together.

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And this is really informational
for me, I assume for you as well.

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One, I'm Canadian, I'm not American,
so I'm not used to the process as

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he mentions to be able to have.

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Information on record for any other
administration that comes through

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or any other flip of Congress.

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If Congress flips in 2026 during
the midterms or even the Senate

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flips, we'll have that information
on record that they can use either

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for or against deep sea mining.

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So I think it'll be interesting
to see what happens there.

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But let's get to the interview of
Dr. Andrew Thaer of his testimony on

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the Committee for Deep Sea Mining.

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Enjoy the interview and
I'll talk to you after.

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Andrew Thaler.

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Welcome back to the How to
Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about not
only deep sea mining, but talking

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about deep sea mining in front of
a committee, like a government,

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a federal government committee?

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You testified.

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We're gonna find out all about that.

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Are you ready to talk about it?

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I am ready.

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Right on.

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I can't tell you enough, Andrew, how one
proud I was as a friend of yours, um,

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to see you, you know, in a suit, first
of all, in a suit, you know, in front.

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Is it a Senate committee?

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Was that what it was?

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Or was it like a, a subcommittee?

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Is that is a house.

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So House of Representatives.

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Uh, right.

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Subcommittee of the House
Natural Resources Committee.

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Um, So it's the, uh, energy
and Minerals subcommittee.

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Okay.

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Okay, cool.

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Well, I'll tell you, I was so proud
to see you are one of three people.

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Thank you.

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Testifying.

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Uh, you know, about deep sea mining and,
and you know, you like, there were two

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sort of industry players that were in
there and we'll get into who they are.

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But then there was you who's, you know,
I, I think it's funny you were, you

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were a true scientist in there because
you were like playing the middle.

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You were like, look, I, like,
I have my own opinions of it.

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But also I see both sides, and here's
the technology and here's, you know,

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the, the, um, sort of here's the, the,
the ethical side and the environmental

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side that I'm concerned about.

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And this is why I'm here.

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And I'm glad that they
chose you to do that.

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Um, before we get into all of that
conversation of how it came to be and

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how you felt throughout the time and
how you feel now, um, can you just give

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people an idea of who you are and what
you do, just to remind them if they

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haven't, if they haven't met you before.

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Absolutely, I'd be happy to.

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So, I am Dr. Andrew Thaler.

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I am a deep sea ecologist, a conservation
technologist, and an Ocean educator.

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Uh, and my work primarily focuses on how
humans use technology to explore, exploit,

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protect, and plunder the deep oceans.

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Right on.

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I love it.

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Alright, let's, let's get right into
it because know people who have,

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who've, who've seen you before.

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They know all about you.

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They know your history with deep
sea mining, uh, and, and, and

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like deep sea ecology and, and
your, I guess, relationship with

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deep sea mining throughout your
career has been quite close.

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Um, you are a, an expert in, in looking
at the issues around it, looking at the

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policy, looking at the environmental,
uh, influence and, and what we

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might or might not expect from it.

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And you've been on the
podcast a number of times.

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I can't even count any more of like how
many times you've been on this podcast.

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It's been more than a
few, bit more than a few.

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Uh, and, and, uh, I'll tell you like,
it's, it's always interesting having you

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on to, to be able to talk about this.

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But let's just get to this,
uh, committee meeting.

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How did it all come about?

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How did you get involved
in this type of thing?

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How, and like, how does one get involved
in this type of test of testifying?

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So this was, um, the house put out an
announcement that there would be a,

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uh, subcommittee hearing, uh, on the
policy barriers to deep sea mining.

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Right.

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Uh, right now the US House
of Remi representatives is

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controlled by the Republicans.

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So the Republicans are the ones
who, who hosted the hearing.

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Uh, generally what happens is, um,
the majority party gets to pick,

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uh, two or three witnesses, and the
minority party gets to supply a single

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witness to, to testify on their side.

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So, okay.

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Uh, a similar hearing happened,
uh, earlier this year.

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Uh, and I, I think we talked about it
when that hearing happened as well.

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Yeah.

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It had many of the same, uh, people
involved the two, I think the two

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deep sea mining CEOs were the same.

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Uh, And then it was, uh, Duncan
Curry who was representing, or who

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was the witness for the Democrats.

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So I've been involved in deep sea
mining policy as well as deep sea mining

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environmental science for a long time.

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Um, you know, I'd like to say it's like,
oh, it's, you know, my vast reputation

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and all the relationships I've built
over time and all these other things.

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But the reality is, um, particularly for
this hearing, I think the overwhelming

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factor that got me into the hearing
was, uh, there was no travel budget.

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And I live very close to DC And then
probably the closest DC mining expert

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to the physical hearing room understood
underst hey, which is not, it's all about

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location, location, location, right?

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Which is, you know, not, not to minimize
any, like, it's an honor to be invited.

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It's, it was an incredible opportunity.

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An incredible experience.

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Um.

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But, you know, it was like the,
the tone of the meeting and

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the setting of the meeting.

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I could have, I, there were other
people I could have recommended as well.

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Um, but it was, it was a fast turnaround.

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They needed an expert who was local
to, to DC and I was absolutely happy to

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represent the Deep Sea, represent the
environment, and represent science in

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front of the US House of Representatives.

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Perfect.

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That's awesome.

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Um, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's
interesting when a committee

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meeting happens, uh, and, and
of course your friends involved,

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you know, somebody who obviously
you're, you're very well qualified.

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I know you said it's location,
location, but you know, you're

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obviously a, a, a person that is, is
perfect for that type of, of of work.

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Uh, when, when you were approached
to do this, were you, uh, nervous?

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Like, did you, did you be like,
I gotta brush up on some things?

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Like what, what was your reaction when
you were like, oh, I'm, I'm doing this.

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So it was, um, I mean, it
is, it's very nerve wracking.

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Um, right.

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You know, it is.

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You know, not necessarily a, um,
you know, when you're testifying in

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front of Congress, and especially
when you're representing the minority

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party, you don't expect it to be a
particularly, uh, welcoming group.

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Right.

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Um, it's, it's generally
an antagonistic hearing.

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Um, I had been, uh, tapped as an alternate
for an earlier hearing, so I had gone

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through some hearing prep before.

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Okay.

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So I sort of knew what the process
was there, and there's, you know, we

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had about a week of warning, And so
we did a week of prep for the hearing.

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Um, I, you know, I worked with
the House Dems on my testimony.

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Um, I, we did a couple rounds
of practice questions to really

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get into the field of things.

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And to be honest, the questions we did
in the practice rounds were much, uh,

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harsher and more, uh, more challenging
than the ones we actually had in

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the hearing, which I think helped.

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Helped immensely.

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Yeah, for sure.

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But no, absolutely.

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Going into, I mean, it's, it's the
US Congress and it was my first

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time really testifying in front of.

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You know, the actual US Congress.

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So it's, it's, it's absolutely
a nerve wracking experience.

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It's now, uh, five days in the
past and I'm still coming down off

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the adrenaline high a little bit.

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Um, it was the rare sighting of, of Dr.
Andrew Thaler in a suit, as you said.

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Yeah.

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Which happens about three times a year.

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Lucky.

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You're lucky.

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I feel, if you're lucky, feel
like every scientist has one suit.

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Right.

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And you use that suit.

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I'm all, I'm all about that.

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I have one suit that I use over and over.

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I, you know, I have worn chest
waiters in December more than

230
00:10:48,225 --> 00:10:51,194
I've worn a suit in 2025 and 2026.

231
00:10:52,064 --> 00:10:53,745
Well, you're starting 2026 off strong.

232
00:10:53,835 --> 00:10:54,944
'cause you've already worn won.

233
00:10:55,035 --> 00:10:55,454
Right.

234
00:10:55,454 --> 00:10:56,450
So you Absolutely.

235
00:10:57,585 --> 00:10:58,245
That's awesome.

236
00:10:58,605 --> 00:11:00,010
Um, okay, so, so.

237
00:11:00,710 --> 00:11:03,890
When you get there and you've gone
through the prep, you know what to expect.

238
00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:08,090
You've seen how some of these play on
like the, the deep sea mining ones.

239
00:11:08,090 --> 00:11:08,150
Yeah.

240
00:11:08,630 --> 00:11:10,580
Uh, who were you testifying with?

241
00:11:10,580 --> 00:11:12,830
Who were the, there, you said,
you mentioned there were CEOs

242
00:11:12,830 --> 00:11:15,500
from the, basically the top
mining, deep sea mining companies.

243
00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:18,200
There was the Metals company, I
forget what the other companies.

244
00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,660
Can you just kind of give us a
breakdown of each one of those?

245
00:11:20,750 --> 00:11:20,960
Yeah.

246
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,890
So it was, uh, Gerard Barron from
the Metals Company, who I've known

247
00:11:24,890 --> 00:11:27,830
for 15 years now, uh, at this point.

248
00:11:27,830 --> 00:11:27,860
Okay.

249
00:11:28,370 --> 00:11:32,150
Um, I even did early environmental
work on one of his older companies

250
00:11:32,210 --> 00:11:33,680
way, way back in the day.

251
00:11:34,070 --> 00:11:34,250
Right.

252
00:11:34,250 --> 00:11:36,500
Um, So, so we've, we go back a ways.

253
00:11:36,770 --> 00:11:39,645
Um, And then it was
Oliver, uh, gun Sakara.

254
00:11:39,905 --> 00:11:40,135
Uh, okay.

255
00:11:40,460 --> 00:11:44,000
Who is Impossible Medals, who I think
you've interacted with a few times.

256
00:11:44,030 --> 00:11:45,590
And I know he Yes, yes.

257
00:11:45,590 --> 00:11:46,490
On, on LinkedIn.

258
00:11:46,490 --> 00:11:47,960
He's always like, lemme come on the show.

259
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,380
And I'm, one day, one day I, you
know, he'd be a great interview.

260
00:11:51,710 --> 00:11:51,950
Yeah.

261
00:11:51,950 --> 00:11:53,660
He's, he, he, he, he is a nice guy.

262
00:11:53,660 --> 00:11:54,380
He is very earnest.

263
00:11:54,380 --> 00:11:55,490
He believes in what he is doing.

264
00:11:55,860 --> 00:11:56,220
Um, right.

265
00:11:56,220 --> 00:11:57,089
He'd be a great interview.

266
00:11:57,420 --> 00:11:59,975
Uh, you don't have to agree with
everything he is doing to, of course.

267
00:11:59,975 --> 00:12:00,055
Yeah.

268
00:12:00,055 --> 00:12:01,740
To appreciate the value of his work.

269
00:12:01,949 --> 00:12:06,060
Uh, And then there was also a third
witness, which was Eric, uh, Milito, who,

270
00:12:06,089 --> 00:12:12,089
uh, was new to me, who is a lobbyist with,
uh, one of the big, uh, offshore energy

271
00:12:12,089 --> 00:12:17,819
development NGOs, Um, So he's primarily,
uh, offshore oil and Nat gas, but also

272
00:12:17,819 --> 00:12:20,100
offshore wind and offshore minerals, so.

273
00:12:20,130 --> 00:12:20,520
Gotcha.

274
00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,040
He's kind of, he is a lobbyist
for, for that industry.

275
00:12:23,579 --> 00:12:23,910
Okay.

276
00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,530
Now, you, you said you had relationship
with, uh, Gerard Barron before.

277
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,240
So what's that relationship like now?

278
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,110
Is it like, you know, you guys,
he knows, you know, each other.

279
00:12:34,230 --> 00:12:35,490
It is cordial.

280
00:12:35,490 --> 00:12:38,490
You've, you've had con I assume
a number of conversations with

281
00:12:38,490 --> 00:12:40,319
him about deep sea mining.

282
00:12:40,350 --> 00:12:42,810
You, I, I assume there's some
things you agree on, there's some

283
00:12:42,810 --> 00:12:44,040
things you agree to disagree.

284
00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:45,720
Is that, how, is that how it works?

285
00:12:46,110 --> 00:12:47,520
I mean, we're professionally cordial.

286
00:12:47,550 --> 00:12:48,750
We, we know each other well.

287
00:12:48,750 --> 00:12:52,140
We worked with each other, other on
multiple things when I was the editor in

288
00:12:52,140 --> 00:12:53,730
Chief of the Deep Sea Mining Observer.

289
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,870
Um, yeah, he was always a very
forthcoming source when I needed to

290
00:12:57,870 --> 00:13:01,140
talk with a representative from a
mining company and get their opinions.

291
00:13:01,140 --> 00:13:04,410
So, um, yeah, you know, we
have a respectful, uh, cordial

292
00:13:04,410 --> 00:13:05,580
professional relationship.

293
00:13:05,580 --> 00:13:05,590
Yeah.

294
00:13:05,610 --> 00:13:07,980
You know, we're not best friends,
but No, no, of course not.

295
00:13:07,980 --> 00:13:08,130
Yeah.

296
00:13:08,130 --> 00:13:08,280
Yeah.

297
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:08,970
You don't have to be.

298
00:13:08,970 --> 00:13:11,700
Yeah, no, I think it's just, but it was,
you know, the surprising thing was like,

299
00:13:12,150 --> 00:13:15,780
um, you know, it's not like the witnesses
are not a particularly antagonistic group.

300
00:13:15,780 --> 00:13:16,860
Like we all know each other.

301
00:13:16,865 --> 00:13:16,915
Right.

302
00:13:16,915 --> 00:13:16,995
Yeah.

303
00:13:16,995 --> 00:13:20,130
And like, it's a small, it's a small
industry, it's a small community.

304
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:20,940
Um, yeah.

305
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,720
We've all had it out with our various
positions on things and that's been

306
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,570
going on for a long time, so it's
not like there were gonna be any

307
00:13:27,570 --> 00:13:29,010
surprises in the hearing either.

308
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:29,970
Yeah.

309
00:13:30,180 --> 00:13:31,290
Which I think is kind of nice too.

310
00:13:31,290 --> 00:13:37,350
I think a lot of times we've been,
uh, the viewers have been, uh, sort

311
00:13:37,350 --> 00:13:42,990
of exposed to other, probably maybe
larger like senate committees, I would

312
00:13:42,990 --> 00:13:44,910
imagine, and even house committees that.

313
00:13:45,285 --> 00:13:48,975
Are, are a little bit more
controversial, uh, topics, you know?

314
00:13:49,185 --> 00:13:49,305
Oh, yeah.

315
00:13:49,545 --> 00:13:50,865
Uh, especially these days.

316
00:13:50,865 --> 00:13:55,095
And you see, you know, congress
members and, and senate members going

317
00:13:55,215 --> 00:13:58,395
at it with the, with the, uh, with
the witnesses and, and, and being

318
00:13:58,425 --> 00:14:00,525
very harsh and, and things like that.

319
00:14:00,555 --> 00:14:05,295
This is more of, was this more of
a, so let's, let's, let's, let's

320
00:14:05,595 --> 00:14:07,455
kind of lay the situation down.

321
00:14:07,455 --> 00:14:15,225
So there's been, um, at least
two, uh, deep sea mining, um, I

322
00:14:15,225 --> 00:14:18,680
guess inquiries or, or, or, or
like a, a request for information.

323
00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:18,840
Yeah.

324
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:20,920
So RFIs, RFIs, request for information.

325
00:14:21,255 --> 00:14:21,555
Right.

326
00:14:21,555 --> 00:14:25,905
So for Samoa as well as,
uh, for the Mariana Islands,

327
00:14:25,905 --> 00:14:27,080
and they've Mariana Islands.

328
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:27,240
Yep.

329
00:14:27,495 --> 00:14:27,765
Yep.

330
00:14:27,765 --> 00:14:32,055
The, the public periods have, like,
the public common periods have actually

331
00:14:32,055 --> 00:14:34,095
ended for both of those at this point.

332
00:14:34,515 --> 00:14:40,125
Um, my understanding recently, like,
like the last couple of days, there's

333
00:14:40,125 --> 00:14:41,805
been another one that's been mm-hmm.

334
00:14:42,075 --> 00:14:44,355
Uh, put out for, uh, Alaska.

335
00:14:44,415 --> 00:14:44,474
Yeah.

336
00:14:45,165 --> 00:14:49,185
And, and is it, is it, is there one
put out for ver around Virginia too?

337
00:14:49,185 --> 00:14:50,714
Like off the shores of Virginia?

338
00:14:50,870 --> 00:14:56,535
So, so the current state is, um, we've
had RFIs go out for American Samoa

339
00:14:56,685 --> 00:14:58,185
and the Northern Mariana Islands.

340
00:14:58,245 --> 00:15:02,474
Those have opened and closed and received
a tremendous amount of comments right from

341
00:15:02,474 --> 00:15:07,214
the people of American Samoa, Guam and
Northern Mariana Islands in particular.

342
00:15:07,214 --> 00:15:07,275
Yeah.

343
00:15:07,844 --> 00:15:12,165
There will be one going out for Alaska
tomorrow is I tomorrow think when it will

344
00:15:12,165 --> 00:15:13,635
be published to the Federal Register.

345
00:15:13,935 --> 00:15:13,964
Okay.

346
00:15:14,175 --> 00:15:17,925
So by time this is published, this, this
will be, there'll be an RFI out for that.

347
00:15:18,314 --> 00:15:23,415
Um, there was a press release
about, uh, metal rich sands and

348
00:15:23,415 --> 00:15:25,305
phosphates off the coast of Virginia.

349
00:15:25,380 --> 00:15:25,500
Gotcha.

350
00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:27,360
We've seen the press release.

351
00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,800
There's no date for when there will
be, uh, an RFI fit filed to the

352
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,910
Federal Register Um, So we don't
know what is the status of that one

353
00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:39,210
yet, and we'll have more clarity
once, once they put out a formal RFI.

354
00:15:39,750 --> 00:15:45,960
In addition to that, Noah has put out the
new rules for expediting deep sea mining

355
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,850
permitting in the high Seas, which is
areas beyond national jurisdiction, which

356
00:15:51,180 --> 00:15:55,035
if you are a country who is a member state
of the UN Convention of the Law of the

357
00:15:55,035 --> 00:15:58,170
Sea, you can't mine without the consent
of the International Seabed Authority.

358
00:15:58,590 --> 00:16:03,330
The US is the one country that has a
major economy that has not signed on

359
00:16:03,330 --> 00:16:04,920
to the UN convention, the law, the sea.

360
00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:06,810
So we're kind of going
a little rogue there.

361
00:16:06,810 --> 00:16:06,870
Yeah.

362
00:16:07,170 --> 00:16:10,980
And that is, um, you know, I, I'm
very comfortable saying I think that

363
00:16:10,980 --> 00:16:14,280
is largely going to be an illegal
move that is gonna be challenged

364
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:15,720
in court quite substantially.

365
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,900
I also think it's wildly unethical
while the ISA is in the midst of

366
00:16:19,319 --> 00:16:23,370
deliberating and negotiating how we're
gonna parcel out these resources to say.

367
00:16:23,430 --> 00:16:26,849
You know, forget, you guys we're
just gonna do it ourselves.

368
00:16:27,300 --> 00:16:28,469
Um, yeah.

369
00:16:28,469 --> 00:16:33,180
And I have to admit, it boggles
my mind that that's how it works.

370
00:16:33,180 --> 00:16:37,800
So the members of unclothed, like
the UN Law of the SEA Convention of

371
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:43,829
Law of the Sea, cannot mine in the
high Seas because they are part,

372
00:16:43,829 --> 00:16:45,719
it's part of that binding agreement.

373
00:16:46,530 --> 00:16:47,670
They can't mind yet.

374
00:16:47,729 --> 00:16:49,515
They're in the process
of developing the rules.

375
00:16:49,805 --> 00:16:50,155
Right.

376
00:16:50,155 --> 00:16:52,500
So they're waiting for these
rules to be developed before they

377
00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:54,329
even think about doing anything.

378
00:16:54,870 --> 00:16:59,369
But the ones who don't, the
countries who don't sign can

379
00:16:59,369 --> 00:17:00,689
do whatever the hell they want.

380
00:17:00,990 --> 00:17:01,260
Yeah.

381
00:17:01,260 --> 00:17:05,339
If they so desire, I feel like
that's backwards in a way.

382
00:17:05,790 --> 00:17:06,359
You know what I mean?

383
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:11,849
Like, not only is it backwards, but
when this treaty was being negotiated,

384
00:17:11,849 --> 00:17:16,169
and especially when the implementation
agreement to create the International

385
00:17:16,169 --> 00:17:20,700
Sea B Authority was being negotiated,
it was negotiated in a way to be

386
00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:23,099
extremely favorable to the United States.

387
00:17:23,865 --> 00:17:29,145
Um, So the United States stands to
benefit tremendously from joining the

388
00:17:29,145 --> 00:17:30,555
UN Convention of the Law of the Sea.

389
00:17:30,975 --> 00:17:34,335
Um, they immediate, if the UN
ratifies the treaty I, not the un,

390
00:17:34,335 --> 00:17:37,695
if the US ratifies the treaty, they
immediately get a seat on the council.

391
00:17:37,965 --> 00:17:40,815
They immediately get access to
putting their experts on the

392
00:17:40,815 --> 00:17:42,195
legal and technical commission.

393
00:17:42,465 --> 00:17:47,475
They immediately get a tremendous amount
of influence over the deliberations and

394
00:17:47,475 --> 00:17:51,645
the US negotiated in good faith to get all
those carve outs put in when the treaty

395
00:17:51,645 --> 00:17:54,255
was live And then chose not to ratify.

396
00:17:55,125 --> 00:17:58,605
And when was that, like when,
when was the treaty like live?

397
00:17:58,605 --> 00:17:59,595
When did that come in place?

398
00:17:59,595 --> 00:17:59,925
Do you remember?

399
00:17:59,925 --> 00:18:02,415
So it went into effect in 94.

400
00:18:02,415 --> 00:18:04,575
That was the implementation
agreement for the ISA.

401
00:18:04,815 --> 00:18:07,065
The UN Convention of the Law
of the Sea was in the eighties.

402
00:18:07,065 --> 00:18:12,555
And it was Reagan who ultimately
decided not to, uh, ratify the treaty.

403
00:18:13,485 --> 00:18:14,415
And do we know why?

404
00:18:15,060 --> 00:18:16,000
Do we have any idea?

405
00:18:16,245 --> 00:18:18,075
I know it's a long time ago,
and I don't know if you.

406
00:18:18,750 --> 00:18:22,800
So there's, um, you know, there was,
there was opposition to, uh, the

407
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,040
US kind of giving away what they
perceived to be their resources.

408
00:18:26,340 --> 00:18:26,429
Mm-hmm.

409
00:18:26,436 --> 00:18:30,689
At the time the US was the major,
uh, driver of deep sea mining.

410
00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:31,375
Um mm-hmm.

411
00:18:31,379 --> 00:18:35,010
We had most of the technology
development, we had the at sea capacity.

412
00:18:35,310 --> 00:18:36,689
Um, we were really running the show.

413
00:18:36,990 --> 00:18:39,720
And so there was a perception that,
you know, if we sign this treaty, we're

414
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,220
giving away an advantage that we have.

415
00:18:41,550 --> 00:18:44,610
Turns out that advantage was largely
artificial, especially in the eighties.

416
00:18:44,939 --> 00:18:45,419
Mm-hmm.

417
00:18:45,455 --> 00:18:49,919
Um, and that's, I think we've done
a, a podcast on the Glomar Explorer

418
00:18:49,919 --> 00:18:54,570
and Project Zoan and how that kind of
borked the entire industry for 20 years.

419
00:18:54,929 --> 00:18:55,169
Right.

420
00:18:55,439 --> 00:18:55,679
Yeah.

421
00:18:56,074 --> 00:18:59,220
But basically the financial estimates
for the value of deep sea mining

422
00:18:59,220 --> 00:19:00,695
in the seventies and eighties was.

423
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,639
Fabricated, and it was fabricated
as part of a, a government front to

424
00:19:05,669 --> 00:19:07,710
recover some Soviet nuclear submarine.

425
00:19:08,340 --> 00:19:12,210
Uh, it's hard, it's hard to talk about
that without sounding like a crazy

426
00:19:12,210 --> 00:19:13,590
conspiracy theorist, but it Right.

427
00:19:13,950 --> 00:19:18,899
Largely the case that, yeah, the
early moves towards deep sea mining

428
00:19:18,930 --> 00:19:22,230
only happened because they had
so much support from the federal

429
00:19:22,230 --> 00:19:24,090
government for clandestine operations.

430
00:19:24,330 --> 00:19:24,659
Yeah.

431
00:19:24,780 --> 00:19:27,690
Well, and I mean, like, that
was the like, height of the

432
00:19:27,690 --> 00:19:28,800
cold war too, in the eighties.

433
00:19:28,919 --> 00:19:29,580
Oh, absolutely.

434
00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:31,980
You know, it was, it was, uh,
there were some things that

435
00:19:31,980 --> 00:19:34,110
were happening, so, um, yeah.

436
00:19:34,110 --> 00:19:35,190
Inter Interesting.

437
00:19:35,610 --> 00:19:35,850
Yeah.

438
00:19:35,909 --> 00:19:36,240
Okay.

439
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:37,740
So that's where we're at.

440
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,950
This, so this committee hearing happens.

441
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,460
Uh, is this part of
the, a regular process?

442
00:19:44,460 --> 00:19:48,780
Like, I'll be honest, I'm surprised
Republicans want to have a hearing in

443
00:19:48,780 --> 00:19:53,190
general just because I, you know, they
haven't come out, you know, they've

444
00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:55,649
come out publicly say they, they want
this obviously by putting out the RFIs.

445
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:56,520
Yeah.

446
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,455
But you know, you have seen,
well, in addition to the RFIs,

447
00:19:58,470 --> 00:20:00,149
there's also an executive order.

448
00:20:00,584 --> 00:20:01,365
An executive order.

449
00:20:01,365 --> 00:20:01,425
Yeah.

450
00:20:01,790 --> 00:20:06,584
Uh, uh, I, I think the motivation
for the hearing was that, um, you

451
00:20:06,584 --> 00:20:09,314
know, the timeline that was set by
the executive order was coming up.

452
00:20:09,945 --> 00:20:10,034
Mm-hmm.

453
00:20:10,034 --> 00:20:14,504
And they needed to get some statements
on the record about, you know, what

454
00:20:14,504 --> 00:20:18,584
are the permitting and policy hurdles
to getting this done in the us Gotcha.

455
00:20:18,615 --> 00:20:20,715
What are the potential implications?

456
00:20:21,105 --> 00:20:25,245
Um, and this was, you know, because
it was a Republican sponsored

457
00:20:25,245 --> 00:20:28,695
hearing, it almost certainly the
goal was to help promote the industry

458
00:20:28,905 --> 00:20:30,375
ahead of the new rules coming out.

459
00:20:30,405 --> 00:20:30,524
Gotcha.

460
00:20:31,065 --> 00:20:34,065
Um, and to get some of the industry
representatives on the record talking

461
00:20:34,065 --> 00:20:37,875
about the value that they're going to be
providing to the United States economy

462
00:20:38,175 --> 00:20:42,705
and to our, you know, alleged need for,
for these specific critical minerals.

463
00:20:43,125 --> 00:20:47,175
Um, And so having the opportunity to
be kind of the one voice that gets

464
00:20:47,175 --> 00:20:51,465
to push back on that was, you know,
a lonely opportunity, but a nice one.

465
00:20:53,715 --> 00:20:57,075
I'm not, you know, I'm not often the
only one in the room that's, that's

466
00:20:57,105 --> 00:21:00,345
arguing for the environment, but,
and of course the, the democrats

467
00:21:00,345 --> 00:21:02,535
in the committee were of course
arguing for the environment as well.

468
00:21:02,745 --> 00:21:08,235
And especially, um, one of the nice things
that happened is that the, um, the chair

469
00:21:08,235 --> 00:21:12,945
of the committee let the representatives
from Guam and American Samoa and, uh,

470
00:21:12,945 --> 00:21:16,155
the CNMI wave in which, Yeah, nice.

471
00:21:16,575 --> 00:21:19,125
US territories elect congresspeople.

472
00:21:19,125 --> 00:21:19,995
They each get won.

473
00:21:20,385 --> 00:21:22,125
Uh, they're allowed to go to Congress.

474
00:21:22,185 --> 00:21:24,825
They are, uh, allowed to
participate in the hearings.

475
00:21:24,885 --> 00:21:26,115
They're allowed to ask questions.

476
00:21:26,115 --> 00:21:27,315
They're allowed to address Congress.

477
00:21:27,465 --> 00:21:28,875
They don't have voting authority.

478
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:35,100
Gotcha Um, So really their one ability to
represent, uh, their constituents is in

479
00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:39,120
these kinds of hearings where they can ask
questions relevant to their constituencies

480
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:40,410
and bring that information back.

481
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,510
So having the ability to bring in,
uh, those representatives and let them

482
00:21:45,510 --> 00:21:49,245
speak for the people who will be most
directly affected by deep sea mining and

483
00:21:49,250 --> 00:21:52,770
US waters, I think was really important
and really a valuable thing to have.

484
00:21:52,770 --> 00:21:53,310
Absolutely.

485
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,800
I know it was a pretty powerful
message, what they said.

486
00:21:56,130 --> 00:21:57,810
We will talk about it in a second.

487
00:21:58,170 --> 00:22:02,940
So, so you're, you're, you're kind of
surrounded by these other, uh, three guys.

488
00:22:02,940 --> 00:22:05,940
Three guys who are, who are sitting up
there and they're, they're testifying,

489
00:22:05,940 --> 00:22:07,125
they're everybody's asking questions.

490
00:22:07,380 --> 00:22:10,080
So you had the committee
members asking questions.

491
00:22:10,470 --> 00:22:18,420
Um, overall, how do you feel it went
in terms of giving information, uh,

492
00:22:18,450 --> 00:22:21,870
for, for deep sea mining in, in the us?

493
00:22:22,770 --> 00:22:26,280
So, um, you know, how it went is kind of.

494
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,659
You know, I don't have any illusions
that this hearing is going to

495
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,620
reshape the current administration's
priorities on deep sea mining or,

496
00:22:34,830 --> 00:22:39,540
you know, uh, change the hearts of,
of the Republicans on the committee.

497
00:22:39,629 --> 00:22:44,639
Um, uh, I think what's important is that,
uh, it's on the congressional record,

498
00:22:44,699 --> 00:22:46,889
uh, what the environmental impacts are.

499
00:22:47,129 --> 00:22:50,490
It's on the congressional record that
these are some of the limitations.

500
00:22:50,909 --> 00:22:54,419
Um, and it's laying the groundwork
for, you know, if there is a, a

501
00:22:54,419 --> 00:22:59,010
change in power in US Congress,
which likely will happen in in 2028.

502
00:22:59,100 --> 00:23:03,480
Um, you know, if normal political
tides behave like normal political

503
00:23:03,510 --> 00:23:06,600
sides do, for those who are listening
on audio, I'm crossing my fingers.

504
00:23:06,629 --> 00:23:06,750
Yeah.

505
00:23:06,750 --> 00:23:08,879
And my toes like
everything's being crossed.

506
00:23:08,939 --> 00:23:09,389
Yes.

507
00:23:09,389 --> 00:23:09,449
Yeah.

508
00:23:09,449 --> 00:23:12,990
I mean, generally speaking, party,
party and power in Congress shifts

509
00:23:13,379 --> 00:23:15,090
halfway through a presidential term.

510
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,510
Who knows what will actually
happen during this presidential

511
00:23:18,510 --> 00:23:19,540
term, but you know, right.

512
00:23:20,445 --> 00:23:24,885
Assuming that the Democrats take control,
we've, we've laid some groundwork

513
00:23:24,885 --> 00:23:30,135
for, uh, where, uh, we feel that there
is, um, you know, weaknesses in the

514
00:23:30,135 --> 00:23:33,195
permitting process and weaknesses
in the development of the industry.

515
00:23:33,555 --> 00:23:36,524
Um, and, you know, the industry's
not ready to mine today anyway.

516
00:23:36,555 --> 00:23:36,735
No.

517
00:23:37,035 --> 00:23:41,145
Like, you know, the, the earliest timeline
I heard, uh, came from the metals company.

518
00:23:41,145 --> 00:23:42,975
They said they could be
ready to mine in two years.

519
00:23:43,185 --> 00:23:44,715
I think that's very optimistic.

520
00:23:45,045 --> 00:23:49,665
And I think even if they are ready to mine
in two years, them going after the Clarion

521
00:23:49,665 --> 00:23:53,715
Clipper and zone, the high Seas areas
beyond national jurisdiction means that,

522
00:23:54,105 --> 00:23:56,655
you know, even if they attempt to mine,
they're, they're gonna be faced with a

523
00:23:56,655 --> 00:23:58,485
lot of legal hurdles before that happens.

524
00:23:58,545 --> 00:23:59,055
Oh, I'm sure.

525
00:23:59,145 --> 00:24:02,925
Um, and, you know, these are, all
of these are international companies

526
00:24:02,925 --> 00:24:06,254
with, you know, international supply
chains, international logistics.

527
00:24:06,254 --> 00:24:10,065
Like the ship is is based
in the Netherlands, I think.

528
00:24:10,274 --> 00:24:10,335
Yeah.

529
00:24:10,335 --> 00:24:12,764
One of the, one of the Nordic, the
ship's based in the Netherlands.

530
00:24:12,764 --> 00:24:15,075
I think it's owned by a, a Swiss company.

531
00:24:15,465 --> 00:24:17,685
Like they'll flag it in the us but like.

532
00:24:18,300 --> 00:24:23,850
They have partners that are, uh, housed in
countries that are, uh, ISA member states.

533
00:24:23,970 --> 00:24:29,100
I mean, they, their, their main company
is Canada, which, you know, great.

534
00:24:29,130 --> 00:24:30,150
The, what, what do you say?

535
00:24:30,330 --> 00:24:33,425
The, the, the big north wild and
free Great North Wild and Free Yeah.

536
00:24:33,540 --> 00:24:33,780
Yeah.

537
00:24:33,780 --> 00:24:33,960
Yeah.

538
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:34,440
Yeah, that's true.

539
00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:34,680
North.

540
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:35,430
Strong and free.

541
00:24:35,430 --> 00:24:35,625
Yeah, true.

542
00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:36,540
North strong free.

543
00:24:36,540 --> 00:24:37,200
Sorry, Yeah.

544
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:37,210
Yeah.

545
00:24:37,285 --> 00:24:40,800
So, you know, Canada is a member
state, so there will be, you know, they

546
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,630
will face legal challenges for sure.

547
00:24:42,660 --> 00:24:42,810
Yeah.

548
00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:45,240
Whether or not they'll prevail,
you know, kind of defend Yeah.

549
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,260
Depends on the prevailing winds and,
and the, the legal arguments being made.

550
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,600
But like, I don't, don't,
it also takes time.

551
00:24:51,660 --> 00:24:52,380
It takes time.

552
00:24:52,380 --> 00:24:54,930
I don't think two years is a
realistic framework for No.

553
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,660
Anyone being able to, to
mine at a commercial scale.

554
00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:57,810
Right.

555
00:24:57,810 --> 00:25:02,250
I think that it's very likely we'll
see, uh, the first of the experimental,

556
00:25:02,340 --> 00:25:07,770
uh, deep sea mining test operations
that are done not at full commercial

557
00:25:07,770 --> 00:25:10,590
scale, but are done at a much larger
scale than what we've seen before.

558
00:25:10,980 --> 00:25:14,340
Um, And so I think it's very important
to have the environmental issues.

559
00:25:14,805 --> 00:25:19,095
In the records and to have dialogues
going with these companies about,

560
00:25:19,095 --> 00:25:22,185
you know, what, what we think would
be an appropriate way to truly

561
00:25:22,185 --> 00:25:23,685
assess the environmental impacts.

562
00:25:24,075 --> 00:25:27,045
Um, and we've done several, several
podcasts on the environmental impacts.

563
00:25:27,045 --> 00:25:30,855
I think, you know, for this one
we can talk more about, like, some

564
00:25:30,855 --> 00:25:34,275
of the other big issues, including
the stakeholders, the people who

565
00:25:34,275 --> 00:25:35,475
are directly impacted by this.

566
00:25:35,475 --> 00:25:39,015
Because, you know, the one thing I
think few people appreciate is that

567
00:25:39,015 --> 00:25:43,845
like these deep sea mining sites
don't happen in the middle of nowhere.

568
00:25:43,995 --> 00:25:49,215
Like they're happening in US territories
where there are islands that are

569
00:25:49,215 --> 00:25:55,065
populated, uh, with people who have
tremendous cultural and personal ties

570
00:25:55,065 --> 00:26:00,135
to the Ocean and who have historically
felt like they've been excluded from

571
00:26:00,135 --> 00:26:01,575
these decision making processes.

572
00:26:02,085 --> 00:26:06,555
So when the RFIs for American Samoa
and the CNMI went out, you know,

573
00:26:06,795 --> 00:26:10,965
they were met with overwhelming and
overwhelmingly bipartisan opposition

574
00:26:10,995 --> 00:26:12,825
to proposals to start deep sea mining.

575
00:26:13,215 --> 00:26:18,045
Um, you know, the, the, the, the Pacific
Territories are largely Republican.

576
00:26:18,045 --> 00:26:21,045
I think American Samoa has a
Republican governor, the CNMI

577
00:26:21,105 --> 00:26:22,425
has a Republican governor.

578
00:26:22,695 --> 00:26:27,645
Um, American Samoa sends more, um,
citizens into the US military than

579
00:26:27,645 --> 00:26:29,775
any other, uh, region per capita.

580
00:26:30,225 --> 00:26:32,925
Um, really, I was not to say state,
but you know, because we have, yeah.

581
00:26:33,015 --> 00:26:35,175
Than any state or territory per capita.

582
00:26:35,175 --> 00:26:38,325
American Samoa sends more people
to fight for the United States.

583
00:26:38,595 --> 00:26:43,425
Um, and, you know, there, there is a,
a deep and complex history, especially

584
00:26:43,425 --> 00:26:48,195
with the Pacific Islands, uh, with
uh, not just colonialism, but with a

585
00:26:48,195 --> 00:26:52,965
perception of the United States as in
some ways and in some places a liberator.

586
00:26:52,965 --> 00:26:53,385
So, yeah.

587
00:26:53,955 --> 00:26:57,300
Um, 'cause the US came in
during World War II and.

588
00:26:57,899 --> 00:27:00,570
You know, a lot of these places were,
you know, the Mariana Islands are

589
00:27:00,570 --> 00:27:03,540
called the Mariana Islands because
Spain said these are ours and we're

590
00:27:03,540 --> 00:27:05,220
gonna name 'em after Queen Mariana.

591
00:27:06,090 --> 00:27:06,179
Jeez.

592
00:27:07,290 --> 00:27:09,300
Um, yeah, I didn't know that.

593
00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:09,399
So people have, that's crazy.

594
00:27:09,399 --> 00:27:13,770
You know, it's, it's this, it's this
fascinating, you know, it's this complex

595
00:27:13,770 --> 00:27:18,000
interaction between Pacific identity
and also like complicated feelings

596
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,050
towards the United States that aren't
always what you might expect them to be.

597
00:27:25,020 --> 00:27:25,200
Yeah.

598
00:27:25,205 --> 00:27:26,820
It's, it's interesting.

599
00:27:26,970 --> 00:27:29,700
I've always, my, my argument's
always been, you know, the territory

600
00:27:29,700 --> 00:27:33,060
should have statehood, and if we
do all six of them at once, I think

601
00:27:33,060 --> 00:27:34,590
that's the best possible outcome.

602
00:27:34,649 --> 00:27:34,800
Oh yeah.

603
00:27:34,919 --> 00:27:39,300
Because it almost, it gives a
balance because if you do all six

604
00:27:39,300 --> 00:27:42,720
territories at once, my, uh, my
guess is very strongly, three of them

605
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,429
will lean pretty heavily Republican.

606
00:27:44,429 --> 00:27:45,240
Three of them will lean Yeah.

607
00:27:45,570 --> 00:27:46,679
Very heavily Democrat.

608
00:27:46,679 --> 00:27:49,139
And so it won't immediately
upset the balance in a way that

609
00:27:49,139 --> 00:27:53,760
say like, yeah, we'll give, you
know, statehood to DC and Puerto.

610
00:27:54,255 --> 00:27:55,460
Right, right.

611
00:27:55,545 --> 00:27:59,625
Because it's, you know, Washington,
DC, Puerto Rico, us Virgin Islands

612
00:27:59,655 --> 00:28:03,915
would, would probably, if they got
statehood, um, lean, fairly Democrat.

613
00:28:04,275 --> 00:28:04,365
Yeah.

614
00:28:04,395 --> 00:28:07,545
Um, and the, the Pacific ones
would, would likely lean fairly

615
00:28:07,545 --> 00:28:08,985
Republican at least re for the moment.

616
00:28:09,615 --> 00:28:09,675
Yeah.

617
00:28:09,915 --> 00:28:13,035
Although, we'll see what happens if,
if someone starts mining their waters.

618
00:28:13,995 --> 00:28:14,295
Yeah.

619
00:28:14,380 --> 00:28:20,295
'cause like, my understanding is from the,
the comments that were provided in, in

620
00:28:20,295 --> 00:28:25,485
the American Samoa and the Marion Islands,
they were largely against the mining.

621
00:28:25,490 --> 00:28:25,700
Oh yes.

622
00:28:25,845 --> 00:28:26,625
The deep sea mining.

623
00:28:26,655 --> 00:28:26,925
Right.

624
00:28:26,930 --> 00:28:30,465
Extremely against, extremely
against 95, 90 6% of the

625
00:28:30,465 --> 00:28:31,635
comments coming from the island.

626
00:28:31,875 --> 00:28:31,935
Yeah.

627
00:28:31,935 --> 00:28:34,485
And, and Guam isn't even like, I
think they've passed laws, like

628
00:28:34,485 --> 00:28:35,775
they're not even considering it.

629
00:28:36,075 --> 00:28:36,345
Right.

630
00:28:36,345 --> 00:28:38,205
Like, they're just like, it's, it's over.

631
00:28:38,205 --> 00:28:43,575
Like they're, they're so Guam and
American Samoa have, um, bans on deep

632
00:28:43,575 --> 00:28:47,835
sea mining in their waters, but as
territories, they only control their

633
00:28:47,835 --> 00:28:49,725
territorial waters out to 12 miles.

634
00:28:50,205 --> 00:28:54,315
Ah, the exclusive economic zone
that stretches out 200 miles Yeah.

635
00:28:54,510 --> 00:28:54,570
Yeah.

636
00:28:54,570 --> 00:28:58,590
So that 12 mile to 200 mile
zone is federal waters.

637
00:28:58,590 --> 00:28:58,680
Right.

638
00:28:58,980 --> 00:29:02,160
And so the federal government
can do what it it wants.

639
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:02,890
That's a lot.

640
00:29:02,890 --> 00:29:02,900
Water.

641
00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:02,910
Yes.

642
00:29:02,910 --> 00:29:03,720
It's a ton of water.

643
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:03,770
It's a lot of water.

644
00:29:03,875 --> 00:29:04,225
Yeah.

645
00:29:04,230 --> 00:29:04,320
Yeah.

646
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:04,800
Yeah.

647
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:06,000
Interesting.

648
00:29:06,030 --> 00:29:06,300
Okay.

649
00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:11,730
So, so the, like, talk to me about some of
the questions that were asked, like, what

650
00:29:11,730 --> 00:29:14,700
stood out for you during this session?

651
00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:16,440
Because it was, it was
a fairly long session.

652
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:17,185
It was about two hours.

653
00:29:17,195 --> 00:29:17,705
About two hours.

654
00:29:18,005 --> 00:29:18,825
Two hours, yeah.

655
00:29:18,830 --> 00:29:23,340
Um, talk to me about some of the questions
that stood out to you that, that maybe

656
00:29:23,340 --> 00:29:28,710
even surprised you at times, um, that were
asked that you were just like, oh, okay.

657
00:29:28,710 --> 00:29:30,000
Like, we're gonna have to answer this.

658
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,800
Or even some of the answers
that were given too.

659
00:29:31,860 --> 00:29:32,010
Yeah.

660
00:29:32,250 --> 00:29:35,610
So the question I got that, that
surprised me the most, because, you

661
00:29:35,610 --> 00:29:39,390
know, if you watched, I was not the
main person being, being grilled.

662
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,080
Um, a lot of the objectives of
the Democrats were to get mining

663
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,350
CEOs on the record about specific
initiatives that they had.

664
00:29:46,350 --> 00:29:47,910
So, um, I got.

665
00:29:48,585 --> 00:29:51,375
The, the questions you would expect
from the Democrats about what

666
00:29:51,375 --> 00:29:52,545
are the environmental impacts?

667
00:29:52,965 --> 00:29:54,225
Can you monitor this?

668
00:29:54,225 --> 00:29:55,275
Who can monitor this?

669
00:29:55,275 --> 00:29:55,395
Yes.

670
00:29:55,635 --> 00:29:59,235
Um, and I think that was a really
important one because the answer to who's

671
00:29:59,235 --> 00:30:02,565
gonna monitor this, who has the capacity
to monitor this right now, is the mining

672
00:30:02,565 --> 00:30:06,975
companies, the only people really, you
have the capacity to do environmental

673
00:30:06,975 --> 00:30:10,545
monitoring of deep sea mining site
is a company doing deep sea mining.

674
00:30:10,755 --> 00:30:12,915
And in fact, right now, even the
federal government doesn't have the

675
00:30:12,915 --> 00:30:18,285
capacity because we fired, you know,
25% of the workforce Um, So there is a

676
00:30:18,285 --> 00:30:21,795
tremendous deficit of capacity within
the federal government, within the

677
00:30:21,795 --> 00:30:25,755
regulatory agencies to do the kind of
monitoring that would be necessary.

678
00:30:25,755 --> 00:30:29,235
And so it requires really tight
partnerships with the mining companies,

679
00:30:29,235 --> 00:30:33,735
which, you know, depending on who the
mining companies are and how you feel

680
00:30:33,735 --> 00:30:37,365
their relationships are, and how you, you
feel, whether or not they're operating

681
00:30:37,365 --> 00:30:42,075
in, um, you know, they're, they're coming
from a, a good faith, uh, position.

682
00:30:42,645 --> 00:30:45,765
Um, you know, some people may be
very opposed to saying, we can't let.

683
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,870
The, the people doing the
exploitation also do the monitoring.

684
00:30:48,870 --> 00:30:52,470
Of course we have to have some way to,
to balance that against something else.

685
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:52,740
Yeah.

686
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,330
Um, you know, the, the, the one curve
ball question I got, 'cause you know,

687
00:30:57,330 --> 00:31:00,000
with the, with the Democrats on the,
on the hearing, I knew what questions

688
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,170
they were gonna ask me ahead of time.

689
00:31:01,740 --> 00:31:01,830
Yeah.

690
00:31:01,830 --> 00:31:01,850
'cause Yeah.

691
00:31:01,850 --> 00:31:02,024
Yeah.

692
00:31:02,129 --> 00:31:02,580
They told you.

693
00:31:02,940 --> 00:31:05,879
We rehearsed and we talked about it and
they discussed it and they said what they

694
00:31:05,879 --> 00:31:12,210
wanted to have on, on the record, Um, So
with, um, the, the curve ball questions

695
00:31:12,210 --> 00:31:14,760
came from the Republicans and the one
that I thought was really interesting

696
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:19,590
and, and a little bit surprising was from,
uh, Congressman Bagge, uh, from Alaska.

697
00:31:19,590 --> 00:31:23,160
So he is Alaska's Republican
Congressman, uh, congressman at large.

698
00:31:23,190 --> 00:31:24,480
'cause Alaska gets one.

699
00:31:24,810 --> 00:31:26,430
Um, 'cause they don't
have a lot of people.

700
00:31:26,430 --> 00:31:26,520
Right.

701
00:31:26,970 --> 00:31:33,450
Um, and he asked, you know, what, what
thresholds would you need to see in order

702
00:31:33,450 --> 00:31:35,610
to, to let deep sea mining progress?

703
00:31:36,210 --> 00:31:39,899
Um, and that's, that's, yeah, I, I
appreciate that kind of question because

704
00:31:39,899 --> 00:31:42,270
now we're thinking about this in terms of.

705
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,750
You know, what do we really believe
are acceptable environmental

706
00:31:45,750 --> 00:31:46,950
impacts with deep sea mining?

707
00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:49,770
What do we really, you know,
what kinds of studies would we

708
00:31:49,770 --> 00:31:51,690
actually need to see to get there?

709
00:31:51,930 --> 00:31:54,899
Because right now we get studies
from the mining companies and they

710
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,580
decide to measure their impacts.

711
00:31:56,580 --> 00:32:00,360
And you know, you'll see a lot of them
saying, oh look, we, we did a plume study.

712
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,980
And it showed that the, the impact of
the, the plume is only like immediately

713
00:32:04,980 --> 00:32:07,530
around the site that's directly
being mined and it doesn't spread.

714
00:32:07,740 --> 00:32:09,899
And then you dig into the details
And then you realize they're only

715
00:32:09,899 --> 00:32:11,129
talking about the benthic plume.

716
00:32:11,430 --> 00:32:14,010
They're not talking about the
midwater plume, they're not talking

717
00:32:14,010 --> 00:32:15,690
about accidental surface discharge.

718
00:32:15,990 --> 00:32:18,899
Um, and when they're looking at the
chemistry, they're not talking about

719
00:32:18,899 --> 00:32:22,020
the dewatering plume, they're talking
about the plume produced when you

720
00:32:22,020 --> 00:32:23,730
literally pick a rock off the sea floor.

721
00:32:24,105 --> 00:32:29,355
And so, like, you know, while they're
driving the show, you know, and I, I

722
00:32:29,355 --> 00:32:32,295
don't wanna say that their environmental
studies are suspect because they

723
00:32:32,295 --> 00:32:35,085
do good environmental work and
they work with good scientists too.

724
00:32:35,475 --> 00:32:39,855
But the environmental studies are
geared towards, uh, a positive outcome.

725
00:32:40,365 --> 00:32:43,425
And, you know, as a scientist,
my goal is always to disprove

726
00:32:43,425 --> 00:32:44,415
my own hypothesis, right?

727
00:32:44,745 --> 00:32:47,745
And so if you're going in with the
hypothesis, there's not gonna be any harm.

728
00:32:48,015 --> 00:32:52,245
You're like, you need to, you need
to be designing your studies to,

729
00:32:52,275 --> 00:32:55,455
to really reflect what maximal
harm would actually look like.

730
00:32:56,055 --> 00:32:56,535
Um, yeah.

731
00:32:56,535 --> 00:33:00,465
And I think that's where, you know,
that's where having the ability to do

732
00:33:00,465 --> 00:33:05,805
independent studies, um, to work with
Bo and with Bessie, which it is the,

733
00:33:05,805 --> 00:33:07,395
the federal agency is called Bessie.

734
00:33:07,755 --> 00:33:09,285
Um, it's, it's fantastic.

735
00:33:09,285 --> 00:33:13,665
It's a great name for the, the one of the
regulatory agencies that oversees mineral

736
00:33:13,665 --> 00:33:16,255
extraction in, in the Ocean, um, right.

737
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,875
But to have those be designed
not by the mining company.

738
00:33:20,340 --> 00:33:24,000
But by the regulators to say,
okay, this is, we've worked

739
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,100
with our scientific experts.

740
00:33:26,130 --> 00:33:29,310
'cause the US has a tremendous amount
of scientific expertise on the deep sea.

741
00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:32,550
You know, we've worked with
our US scientific experts, um,

742
00:33:32,580 --> 00:33:35,040
they've defined what they believe
to be critical thresholds.

743
00:33:35,070 --> 00:33:36,630
We've designed the experiment.

744
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,170
You go out and do it
and we will review it.

745
00:33:40,170 --> 00:33:42,360
And I think that's the kind of
thing we need to start seeing.

746
00:33:42,750 --> 00:33:49,530
Um, studies designed by independent,
uh, regulatory agencies that are then

747
00:33:49,530 --> 00:33:50,940
conducted by the mining companies.

748
00:33:50,940 --> 00:33:52,890
'cause they're the only ones who
can really afford to do them.

749
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,090
One of the questions I had when you,
when you were talking about, you

750
00:33:57,090 --> 00:34:01,890
know, the different types of, of like
scientists doing the work and doing the

751
00:34:01,890 --> 00:34:05,430
impact assessments and environmental
assessments as well as, you know,

752
00:34:05,490 --> 00:34:09,659
during the operations, uh, having
the mining companies look after it.

753
00:34:09,659 --> 00:34:12,630
Like, I've worked as an environmental
consultant before, you know, a

754
00:34:12,630 --> 00:34:13,680
lot of times I know how they work.

755
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,630
They usually hire an
outside consulting firm.

756
00:34:15,630 --> 00:34:19,080
The outside consulting firm will
have a, hopefully a good reputation.

757
00:34:19,260 --> 00:34:23,040
They will do the, the work And then,
you know, it gets scrutinized, but

758
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:24,745
it's based on science and Right.

759
00:34:24,764 --> 00:34:27,000
And, and a lot of information
and, And so forth.

760
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,130
And the government kind of looks
through it and makes sure that it's

761
00:34:29,130 --> 00:34:30,810
done properly And then they, they do it.

762
00:34:30,810 --> 00:34:33,659
And, and if, if people don't think
it's done properly, we've seen

763
00:34:33,659 --> 00:34:35,190
this in the oil and gas industry.

764
00:34:35,389 --> 00:34:39,770
Then environmental NGOs will actually sue
to make sure that they do a proper job.

765
00:34:39,770 --> 00:34:42,560
Yes, we saw that in the North
slope and, and that worked and,

766
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,620
and although it's a lot of work, it
doesn't happen often, but although

767
00:34:45,620 --> 00:34:47,060
it's a lot of work, it does happen.

768
00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:49,940
And in that case, they were, uh,
the environmental consultants or the

769
00:34:49,940 --> 00:34:53,750
environmental NGOs were very, uh,
successful in, in stopping that without

770
00:34:53,870 --> 00:34:56,029
a better environmental impact assessment.

771
00:34:56,089 --> 00:34:59,420
But when we talk about the actual
operation of the work, like I remember

772
00:35:00,109 --> 00:35:04,220
working as an, uh, an environmental
consultant with seismic survey.

773
00:35:04,220 --> 00:35:07,759
I was actually like a Marine mammal
observer on the ships in the Arctic.

774
00:35:07,850 --> 00:35:10,395
And so, you know, we were looking
at whales when they were coming in.

775
00:35:11,205 --> 00:35:13,605
You know, if they came in within
a certain distance, we had to shut

776
00:35:13,605 --> 00:35:14,745
down the instrumentation right.

777
00:35:14,750 --> 00:35:15,375
And, And so forth.

778
00:35:15,615 --> 00:35:18,375
So we had, we were representing
the government on that.

779
00:35:18,375 --> 00:35:22,065
We were being paid by the companies,
but we were representing the government

780
00:35:22,065 --> 00:35:25,065
and, you know, we were making sure
that everything was done properly.

781
00:35:26,025 --> 00:35:29,835
If fisheries that happens to where you
have fisheries observers on board, are

782
00:35:29,835 --> 00:35:33,405
there such thing as, and, and I know
this industry's fairly new and hasn't

783
00:35:33,405 --> 00:35:37,395
really been done, are there such thing
as, you know, deep sea mining observers

784
00:35:37,395 --> 00:35:40,455
to make sure that everything is done
properly, to make sure there's, if there's

785
00:35:40,455 --> 00:35:44,775
a, a spill or something going wrong,
like how and how does that even work?

786
00:35:44,835 --> 00:35:47,715
Because fisheries observers will come
on and when the fish are coming on the

787
00:35:47,715 --> 00:35:50,685
boat, they count them, they make sure
everything's fine and blah, blah, blah.

788
00:35:50,925 --> 00:35:52,515
When you're doing Marine
mammals reserving, you can

789
00:35:52,515 --> 00:35:53,325
actually see the whales.

790
00:35:53,325 --> 00:35:56,055
You look at binoculars, there's actually
a scientific process through that.

791
00:35:56,295 --> 00:36:00,375
Do you see mining you can't see
underneath, especially that, that deep.

792
00:36:01,185 --> 00:36:02,535
Is that possible?

793
00:36:02,535 --> 00:36:04,275
Has that been discussed at all?

794
00:36:04,305 --> 00:36:06,705
Uh, did it come up during
the, during the hearing?

795
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:08,399
So it did come up during the hearing.

796
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:13,049
Um, and I think, you know, the answer
to that is that, um, there are not

797
00:36:13,049 --> 00:36:17,520
deep sea mining observers yet, although
observer gets to be a very confusing

798
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,330
term because it's also the term used
for the organizations at the ISA that

799
00:36:21,330 --> 00:36:23,069
aren't, uh, representing countries.

800
00:36:23,459 --> 00:36:23,549
Mm-hmm.

801
00:36:23,819 --> 00:36:26,310
Uh, and it's also the name of the
trade journal that I used to run.

802
00:36:26,345 --> 00:36:29,220
So there's like DC Body Observer,
so there's like four different

803
00:36:29,220 --> 00:36:31,500
things that are called observers
in the deep sea mining world.

804
00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:33,845
Might have to change
the, that, the, the name.

805
00:36:34,424 --> 00:36:37,319
But, uh, regulatory observers, I
think, I think it'll be absolutely

806
00:36:37,319 --> 00:36:38,939
necessary to have people on the boats.

807
00:36:39,089 --> 00:36:39,149
Yeah.

808
00:36:39,149 --> 00:36:39,209
Okay.

809
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:42,810
Uh, monitoring and that, you know, that
can get hairy because, you know, you're,

810
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:44,490
you're alone in the middle of the Ocean.

811
00:36:44,490 --> 00:36:46,740
We've seen it with fisheries observers
where they can get in a lot of

812
00:36:46,740 --> 00:36:47,939
trouble if something goes wrong.

813
00:36:48,750 --> 00:36:48,810
Yeah.

814
00:36:48,930 --> 00:36:53,370
And when we're talking about, you know,
the potential to shut down, you know,

815
00:36:53,399 --> 00:36:58,319
millions or potentially billions of
dollars of, of ore coming on board, like.

816
00:36:58,905 --> 00:37:00,495
Things can get hairy for people.

817
00:37:00,495 --> 00:37:04,965
So having, having that program in place in
a way that's reliable and can build trust,

818
00:37:04,965 --> 00:37:07,185
I think is gonna be absolutely essential.

819
00:37:07,545 --> 00:37:09,975
Um, you know, thing, there are
things they can do, like they can

820
00:37:09,975 --> 00:37:13,605
live stream the RV feed from the
mining tool and from the machines

821
00:37:13,605 --> 00:37:14,895
that are observing the mining tool.

822
00:37:14,895 --> 00:37:15,675
So Right.

823
00:37:15,675 --> 00:37:18,165
Those are live stream to the
cloud will be able to, to

824
00:37:18,165 --> 00:37:19,755
watch in real time from mm-hmm.

825
00:37:19,995 --> 00:37:22,395
Uh, other locations, but
like, you know, if things get

826
00:37:22,395 --> 00:37:23,535
hairy, you can turn those off.

827
00:37:24,045 --> 00:37:24,465
Um, yep.

828
00:37:24,885 --> 00:37:26,980
That's certainly not, and
they do with GPS all the time.

829
00:37:27,180 --> 00:37:27,300
Absolutely.

830
00:37:27,300 --> 00:37:27,940
With fisheries, absolutely.

831
00:37:27,940 --> 00:37:29,745
Turn off their is s and
fisheries all the time.

832
00:37:29,745 --> 00:37:29,805
Yeah.

833
00:37:30,090 --> 00:37:30,380
Yeah.

834
00:37:30,385 --> 00:37:35,625
Um, but in terms of like that actual
observation capacity, oh, and also

835
00:37:35,625 --> 00:37:38,025
with the Marine mammals, like,
you know, I just finished that big

836
00:37:38,025 --> 00:37:39,705
report on highly migratory species.

837
00:37:39,705 --> 00:37:39,765
Yeah.

838
00:37:39,765 --> 00:37:40,040
We had John for that.

839
00:37:40,045 --> 00:37:42,585
I think they will have to
have, you know, Marine mammal

840
00:37:42,585 --> 00:37:43,905
observers on the boat as well.

841
00:37:44,085 --> 00:37:46,635
Um, and that, you know, that's
raised an interesting question and a

842
00:37:46,635 --> 00:37:49,905
conversation I've had with, with other
representatives from, from the deep

843
00:37:49,905 --> 00:37:54,675
sea mining world of like, you know
what, what's gonna happen when there's

844
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:56,775
a situation that mandates an all stop?

845
00:37:56,925 --> 00:37:56,985
Yeah.

846
00:37:57,645 --> 00:38:02,445
Um, because, you know, the reality
of the deep Ocean is that we

847
00:38:02,445 --> 00:38:03,825
have explored almost none of it.

848
00:38:04,305 --> 00:38:06,945
Um, less than 1% has been observed.

849
00:38:07,485 --> 00:38:12,915
At almost every time we go down as
scientists, we discover something new and,

850
00:38:13,035 --> 00:38:17,175
you know, to the tune of about once every
decade we discover something entirely new.

851
00:38:17,175 --> 00:38:18,555
That was completely unexpected.

852
00:38:18,555 --> 00:38:22,065
You know, we found hydrothermal vent,
then we found cold seeps, then we

853
00:38:22,065 --> 00:38:25,275
found whale falls and wood falls and
all these other kind of food falls.

854
00:38:25,515 --> 00:38:29,355
Um, very recently, a a Chinese
research team found the deepest

855
00:38:29,385 --> 00:38:30,795
chemosynthetic ecosystems.

856
00:38:30,795 --> 00:38:35,535
It's this, it's this deep, uh, worm
colony that's, that's existing off

857
00:38:35,535 --> 00:38:40,455
of hydrocarbons at like six or seven
or 8,000 meters Um, So we find new

858
00:38:40,455 --> 00:38:43,275
things all the time, and there is
absolutely gonna be a situation in

859
00:38:43,275 --> 00:38:47,235
deep sea mining if it progresses at
commercial scale and becomes the largest

860
00:38:47,235 --> 00:38:48,945
observer of the sea floor in history.

861
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,740
Um, you know, one year of a deep sea
mining operation will observe more of

862
00:38:52,740 --> 00:38:57,720
the sea floor than the entirety of the
last 150 years of scientific exploration.

863
00:38:58,290 --> 00:39:01,080
Um, they're gonna find something new
and they're gonna find something novel.

864
00:39:01,110 --> 00:39:04,290
Like, it's, it's guaranteed that you're
gonna, you're gonna stumble upon a new

865
00:39:04,290 --> 00:39:08,640
ecosystem that we probably haven't even
begun to imagine yet, because we keep

866
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:09,960
getting surprised from the deep sea.

867
00:39:10,380 --> 00:39:13,590
Um, how do you trigger an all
stop in that kit situation?

868
00:39:13,890 --> 00:39:16,470
Like, how do we get to a point
where you're like, Hey guys,

869
00:39:16,470 --> 00:39:20,790
this is like hydrothermal vent
level discovery right here.

870
00:39:21,210 --> 00:39:24,570
Uh, you have to stop and now
we have to spend the next 30

871
00:39:24,570 --> 00:39:25,620
years studying this thing.

872
00:39:26,190 --> 00:39:26,280
Mm-hmm.

873
00:39:26,580 --> 00:39:27,035
Um, mm-hmm.

874
00:39:27,155 --> 00:39:30,210
I, you know, I can guarantee that is
going to, like, if deep sea mining

875
00:39:30,210 --> 00:39:33,360
progresses at full commercial scale,
it's almost guaranteed that that's

876
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:38,160
at least gonna happen once, probably
twice, probably once a decade for

877
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:39,540
the entire operation of the industry.

878
00:39:39,540 --> 00:39:42,840
And we need to have like a plan
in place for what do we do when

879
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,600
they're, 'cause now we have the bb
and j treaty as well, the high Seas.

880
00:39:45,780 --> 00:39:45,840
Yeah.

881
00:39:46,230 --> 00:39:48,795
That defines Marine genetic
resources and, you know.

882
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,880
The Marine genetic resources that we've
discovered from deep sea hydrothermal

883
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:58,290
vents and the economic value that has
come directly from that one discovery

884
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:03,300
vastly dwarfs any prediction for the total
value of the deep sea mining industry.

885
00:40:03,570 --> 00:40:07,650
So there is a real economic conflict
between Marine genetic resources

886
00:40:07,650 --> 00:40:10,980
of the deep sea and the potential
value of war from deep sea mining.

887
00:40:10,980 --> 00:40:15,660
And like they're gonna stumble
on a new cool ecosystem because

888
00:40:15,660 --> 00:40:18,750
we do it all the time because the
deep sea is full of amazing stuff.

889
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:19,110
Uh, Yeah.

890
00:40:19,110 --> 00:40:21,090
And it surprises us very frequently.

891
00:40:21,090 --> 00:40:26,010
And so figuring out how we handle
that moment, I think is the next

892
00:40:26,010 --> 00:40:29,160
big conversation we need to have
as a deep sea mining community.

893
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:29,220
Yeah.

894
00:40:29,220 --> 00:40:33,840
As a community of practitioners working
for or against, or with or in the

895
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:35,940
development of best practices, uh mm-hmm.

896
00:40:36,180 --> 00:40:39,540
Or however you want to parse your role
within deep sea mining, I think that's

897
00:40:39,540 --> 00:40:40,860
a conversation that needs to be had.

898
00:40:40,905 --> 00:40:40,965
Yeah.

899
00:40:41,655 --> 00:40:41,865
Yeah.

900
00:40:41,865 --> 00:40:44,685
And, and even thinking like, not
even just unique habitats that are

901
00:40:44,685 --> 00:40:49,815
stationary that we come across, but
also the connectivity of the Deep sea.

902
00:40:50,115 --> 00:40:50,415
Absolutely.

903
00:40:50,415 --> 00:40:54,045
We did an episode with Ocean Networks
Canada recently, where they were

904
00:40:54,045 --> 00:40:57,405
talking about volcanic activity on
underneath the, in the deep sea,

905
00:40:57,405 --> 00:40:58,695
like basically underneath the water.

906
00:40:59,355 --> 00:41:03,105
And how that's the pillars of
smoke would go across the Pacific.

907
00:41:03,255 --> 00:41:03,465
Mm-hmm.

908
00:41:03,735 --> 00:41:04,005
Absolutely.

909
00:41:04,005 --> 00:41:08,445
We still don't know what value
or, or you know, desecration that

910
00:41:08,445 --> 00:41:11,955
brings, you know, across the deep
sea, but it's there for a reason.

911
00:41:11,955 --> 00:41:13,065
It's, it's happening.

912
00:41:13,455 --> 00:41:16,635
And what if you come across like a
plume of smoke that comes in every

913
00:41:16,635 --> 00:41:21,345
once in a while and it, it disrupts it
somehow, or it, it causes it problems.

914
00:41:21,345 --> 00:41:25,125
And that is a, is a, a key
ecological function or a key

915
00:41:25,395 --> 00:41:29,295
geophysical function that we do not
know anything about at this time.

916
00:41:29,565 --> 00:41:29,715
Right.

917
00:41:29,715 --> 00:41:31,185
You know, we just know
that it goes somewhere.

918
00:41:31,185 --> 00:41:32,175
We don't know where it ends up.

919
00:41:32,175 --> 00:41:33,135
We don't know how far it goes.

920
00:41:33,405 --> 00:41:35,985
And, And so I think there's
so much there, there's so many

921
00:41:36,975 --> 00:41:39,795
unknowns in, in the deep sea.

922
00:41:40,290 --> 00:41:44,590
I think we're starting to discover more
and more and, and I, you know, I, I

923
00:41:45,030 --> 00:41:49,410
talked to you before we, we, we did this,
uh, interview before we pressed record.

924
00:41:49,740 --> 00:41:52,830
Uh, you know, I, beyond Jaws, we just
did an interview, which would probably

925
00:41:52,830 --> 00:41:57,540
be published by the time we published
this episode, uh, where we looked at the,

926
00:41:57,630 --> 00:42:01,290
uh, you know, where, where they looked
at like deep sea rubs, stereo rubs.

927
00:42:01,290 --> 00:42:01,440
Oh, yeah.

928
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,470
Where they could, you know, look at
what species are down there, like

929
00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:08,790
down at 900 meters plus, and, you
know, measure how long they are.

930
00:42:08,790 --> 00:42:11,970
And we will be discovering
new species, or species that

931
00:42:11,970 --> 00:42:13,650
haven't been seen in a long time.

932
00:42:13,950 --> 00:42:15,960
Uh, it's, it's gonna be incredible.

933
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,150
You just said two months
ago there was a new mm-hmm.

934
00:42:18,180 --> 00:42:19,050
Uh, was it squid?

935
00:42:19,050 --> 00:42:21,025
That was just, uh, that
was deep sea squid.

936
00:42:21,025 --> 00:42:22,305
Oh, the, the stalker squid.

937
00:42:22,305 --> 00:42:22,505
Yes.

938
00:42:22,645 --> 00:42:23,305
The stalker squid.

939
00:42:23,305 --> 00:42:23,345
Yeah.

940
00:42:23,345 --> 00:42:26,340
So there, there's a deep sea squid
that, that hangs out in nodule fields.

941
00:42:26,610 --> 00:42:27,540
It varies itself.

942
00:42:27,540 --> 00:42:28,025
Nodule field itself.

943
00:42:28,030 --> 00:42:28,260
Yeah.

944
00:42:28,350 --> 00:42:31,740
It buried, well it was discovered in,
in, in a, in a nodule field survey.

945
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:32,100
Yeah.

946
00:42:32,100 --> 00:42:34,590
To look at the potential
value for these resources.

947
00:42:34,980 --> 00:42:36,810
And it varies itself in nodule fields.

948
00:42:37,380 --> 00:42:41,100
Hangs two of its tentacles out and it
just kind of waits to, to ambush its prey.

949
00:42:41,610 --> 00:42:41,970
Yeah.

950
00:42:42,029 --> 00:42:44,640
And we have no idea how that is going.

951
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,720
Like if we, if we start grabbing some
or that animal gets affected, we have

952
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:52,080
no idea what that's like, what that's
gonna happen, and all the other animals

953
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,950
that are doing things like this that
are in those fields, uh, that are there.

954
00:42:55,950 --> 00:42:57,930
So I, I think it's, it's
just really interesting.

955
00:42:57,930 --> 00:43:03,480
So bringing it back to the hearing,
with all this stuff coming up

956
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:07,710
and known, how did like the
two CEOs, like the two industry

957
00:43:07,710 --> 00:43:10,560
people, uh, react to any of those?

958
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:11,970
Or how did they discuss those?

959
00:43:11,970 --> 00:43:13,770
Or were they asked those in the questions?

960
00:43:13,770 --> 00:43:16,830
Like, what, you know, we're
talking about thresholds here.

961
00:43:17,279 --> 00:43:21,450
What was their threshold to be
like, what are we expecting or what

962
00:43:21,450 --> 00:43:24,930
are we, uh, looking to say, Hey,
you know what, we're okay with.

963
00:43:25,439 --> 00:43:26,700
Doing this much damage.

964
00:43:27,089 --> 00:43:30,660
So they weren't, um, I don't recall if
they were actually asked about thresholds.

965
00:43:30,689 --> 00:43:32,910
This was pretty close to the
end of the hearing was year.

966
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:33,359
Yeah.

967
00:43:33,479 --> 00:43:33,720
Right.

968
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:36,720
And everyone has, everyone, all
the congressmen have a limited

969
00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:38,250
amount of time to ask questions.

970
00:43:38,609 --> 00:43:38,790
Gotcha.

971
00:43:38,790 --> 00:43:41,399
And so people were really dialed
into their specific things.

972
00:43:41,399 --> 00:43:45,180
The mining company CEOs were primarily
talking about the permitting process,

973
00:43:45,209 --> 00:43:50,100
the value to the US economy, um, their
specific technologies and, you know,

974
00:43:50,100 --> 00:43:54,629
the, the, um, steps they're taking
to mitigate some environmental harm.

975
00:43:54,629 --> 00:43:57,629
Although they didn't spend a ton of time
talking about environmental work because

976
00:43:57,660 --> 00:44:00,959
No, the focus of the hearing itself was
not particularly on the environment.

977
00:44:00,959 --> 00:44:01,674
It was more on Right.

978
00:44:02,129 --> 00:44:05,160
The permitting and the,
um, the regulatory process.

979
00:44:05,580 --> 00:44:08,970
And you know a lot about, you
know, stakeholder opinions.

980
00:44:09,825 --> 00:44:12,345
And making sure that the Pacific
Islands are well represented.

981
00:44:12,345 --> 00:44:15,585
And they were, they were grilled a
bit about some comments they had made

982
00:44:15,585 --> 00:44:20,295
about, uh, the Pacific Islands, that
that revealed a little bit of naivety

983
00:44:20,325 --> 00:44:23,685
about Yeah, the politics of the Pacific
and how that's all gonna function.

984
00:44:23,715 --> 00:44:27,225
But, um, you know, I think on that
front, it's gonna be a learning

985
00:44:27,225 --> 00:44:30,225
experience for these mining companies
as they get more and more involved

986
00:44:30,225 --> 00:44:32,295
in, uh, Pacific Island politics.

987
00:44:32,925 --> 00:44:37,155
Um, yeah, it seems like they, they
don't really, I don't know if it's not

988
00:44:37,335 --> 00:44:41,655
taking it seriously or just kind of uh,
well, I think it's a lack of awareness.

989
00:44:41,655 --> 00:44:42,790
Think it's, I think that's what it is.

990
00:44:42,790 --> 00:44:42,910
Yeah.

991
00:44:42,910 --> 00:44:45,645
Well, you know, they're, you know,
it's a deep sea mining, a very

992
00:44:45,705 --> 00:44:47,390
technical operation, uh mm-hmm.

993
00:44:47,475 --> 00:44:52,095
And a lot of the people who are kind of
at the forefront are technology people.

994
00:44:52,545 --> 00:44:54,285
They're really excited about the robotics.

995
00:44:54,285 --> 00:44:56,655
They're really excited about
the potential of the, or they're

996
00:44:56,655 --> 00:44:59,445
really excited about the logistical
challenges, those kinds of things.

997
00:44:59,685 --> 00:45:03,615
And they're not necessarily the people who
are thinking about, you know, the politics

998
00:45:03,675 --> 00:45:05,715
and the getting the social licens.

999
00:45:06,420 --> 00:45:10,050
And, you know, making sure that you
are making the cultural connections

1000
00:45:10,050 --> 00:45:14,340
you need in order to get, uh, support
from the communities you're working in.

1001
00:45:14,430 --> 00:45:17,790
And not like, I don't expect any mining
company to get a hundred percent support

1002
00:45:17,790 --> 00:45:21,120
from any community they're working
in, but there has to at least be, you

1003
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:25,170
know, a level of mutual respect between
the communities they're working in and

1004
00:45:25,170 --> 00:45:28,860
the mining company that is reflected
in, you know, day-to-day operations.

1005
00:45:28,860 --> 00:45:32,190
You know, if, if you have a mining
operation off the coast of American Samoa,

1006
00:45:32,610 --> 00:45:34,350
you've gotta use American Samoan airports.

1007
00:45:34,410 --> 00:45:35,490
You are using their hotels.

1008
00:45:35,490 --> 00:45:35,610
Yeah.

1009
00:45:35,610 --> 00:45:38,550
You're getting their rental cars,
you are using their ports, you know?

1010
00:45:38,555 --> 00:45:38,905
Mm-hmm.

1011
00:45:39,060 --> 00:45:42,150
The people loading and unloading
the boats are from American Samoa.

1012
00:45:42,210 --> 00:45:46,290
Like your employees, when they have
downtime between, you know, duty

1013
00:45:46,290 --> 00:45:48,170
shifts are gonna be, you know mm-hmm.

1014
00:45:48,170 --> 00:45:51,810
Recreating an American Samoa, like,
if you don't have at least at some

1015
00:45:51,810 --> 00:45:55,050
level of mutual respect within
the community, that becomes really

1016
00:45:55,050 --> 00:45:57,330
expensive and really challenging and.

1017
00:45:57,705 --> 00:45:59,085
Also very demoralizing.

1018
00:45:59,235 --> 00:45:59,985
'cause you know, yeah.

1019
00:46:00,255 --> 00:46:04,305
You know, imagine you're on a two week
on, two week off stint on a mining ship,

1020
00:46:04,515 --> 00:46:07,635
and the two weeks you're spending in
American Samoa, everyone just hates you.

1021
00:46:07,905 --> 00:46:08,355
Oh yeah.

1022
00:46:08,355 --> 00:46:11,505
You're wondering if every time you go out
to eat someone's spitting in your food.

1023
00:46:11,835 --> 00:46:13,725
Like you, you can't operate like that.

1024
00:46:13,845 --> 00:46:16,665
And that, you know, crushes
your, your employee enthusiasm.

1025
00:46:16,665 --> 00:46:20,655
So when you see like 95% opposition to
the development of the industry, you

1026
00:46:20,655 --> 00:46:25,215
have to take a step back and be like,
we need to do community building before

1027
00:46:25,215 --> 00:46:27,345
we send our robots down, you know?

1028
00:46:28,185 --> 00:46:28,785
Absolutely.

1029
00:46:28,785 --> 00:46:29,385
Absolutely.

1030
00:46:29,385 --> 00:46:30,525
And I, I think that's necessary.

1031
00:46:30,525 --> 00:46:36,165
Now, do you think from that hearing, uh,
I know you said it's more informational

1032
00:46:36,165 --> 00:46:39,945
than anything else, and it's building
on it, do you think, uh, the, the,

1033
00:46:40,005 --> 00:46:44,055
the, uh, Republicans on the committee
are going to take that seriously?

1034
00:46:44,055 --> 00:46:46,875
Do you think that's a, a possibility
that they'll look at that and be

1035
00:46:46,875 --> 00:46:50,925
like, Hey, maybe we should pump the
brakes a little bit and, and let's

1036
00:46:50,925 --> 00:46:52,305
do some more community building.

1037
00:46:53,085 --> 00:46:56,175
Um, I don't think there's gonna
be a pump that breaks, um,

1038
00:46:56,205 --> 00:46:57,945
with this, with this Congress.

1039
00:46:58,485 --> 00:47:01,695
Um, you know, I do think that
there was recognition that the,

1040
00:47:01,695 --> 00:47:04,515
the representatives coming from the
Pacific Islands were also Republicans.

1041
00:47:04,515 --> 00:47:04,940
Yeah, I noticed that.

1042
00:47:04,940 --> 00:47:04,950
Yeah.

1043
00:47:05,235 --> 00:47:08,715
And so, you know, the opposition
is coming from within their own

1044
00:47:08,715 --> 00:47:13,395
party and I think, you know, to some
extent they have to respect that.

1045
00:47:13,545 --> 00:47:18,705
But, you know, the reality on the ground
is one, there's so many years before

1046
00:47:18,705 --> 00:47:20,385
the mining's actually gonna begin that.

1047
00:47:20,385 --> 00:47:23,745
I think it's like kind of a
secondary issue at the moment.

1048
00:47:23,895 --> 00:47:23,985
Mm-hmm.

1049
00:47:24,225 --> 00:47:29,235
And two, there's such a desire to
get this industry moving because

1050
00:47:29,235 --> 00:47:31,875
I think the industry itself
is in a race against time too.

1051
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,400
Um, So there's this desire to get the
industry moving as quickly as possible.

1052
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:41,760
Um, for one, because there, there's this
perception that we have to beat China at

1053
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:45,330
critical minerals, and especially with
deep sea mining, despite the fact that

1054
00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:48,720
polymetallic nodules, we're only talking
about cobalt, nickel, and manganese.

1055
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:49,830
Um, right.

1056
00:47:49,830 --> 00:47:52,890
Which are all minerals that
we get from our allies.

1057
00:47:53,250 --> 00:47:54,000
Um, right.

1058
00:47:54,390 --> 00:47:58,410
And also we don't have any refining
capacity for these nodules anywhere.

1059
00:47:58,740 --> 00:48:01,170
So even if we're somewhere else,
even if we're harvesting them, no.

1060
00:48:01,170 --> 00:48:05,850
Like we, the collective planetary,
we Oh, like humans at the moment,

1061
00:48:05,970 --> 00:48:09,540
there's no fin, like there are lots of
proposals to build refining capacity.

1062
00:48:09,540 --> 00:48:09,600
Yeah.

1063
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,320
Um, you know, there's no point
in, in developing this further

1064
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,600
if, if the refineries are
just gonna be in China again.

1065
00:48:16,020 --> 00:48:16,830
Um mm-hmm.

1066
00:48:16,836 --> 00:48:20,070
Because, but you know, there's no,
there's certainly no US capacity

1067
00:48:20,070 --> 00:48:21,240
to refine these metals yet.

1068
00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:24,690
Um, And then what do these refineries
look like compared to like, you know,

1069
00:48:24,690 --> 00:48:28,260
I, I'm thinking oil and gas refineries,
chemical alley and things like that.

1070
00:48:28,260 --> 00:48:28,950
Like, is that.

1071
00:48:29,580 --> 00:48:35,100
Is it gonna be similar to like the, like
the types of outputs in terms of, of, to

1072
00:48:35,339 --> 00:48:37,830
extract the metals from these nodules?

1073
00:48:38,009 --> 00:48:40,350
So my, my expertise ends
at the, at the shore.

1074
00:48:40,589 --> 00:48:40,620
Okay.

1075
00:48:41,069 --> 00:48:41,879
Um, gotcha.

1076
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,149
You know, I've seen some proposals
for, for what some of the refineries

1077
00:48:45,149 --> 00:48:47,850
look like, and, you know, they, they
are next generation refineries too.

1078
00:48:47,850 --> 00:48:50,790
Like, they're not like giant
oil derricks, you know?

1079
00:48:50,964 --> 00:48:51,390
Right, right.

1080
00:48:51,419 --> 00:48:55,109
But, um, uh, we just, we don't
have them in the US right now.

1081
00:48:55,109 --> 00:48:58,890
So even if you look at a lot of the, um,
the proposals coming out and the responses

1082
00:48:58,890 --> 00:49:01,710
to the RFIs from the mining companies,
they're talking about stockpiling.

1083
00:49:02,189 --> 00:49:04,319
And one of the points I made in
my testimony is, you know, the

1084
00:49:04,319 --> 00:49:06,810
cheapest place to stockpile these
is to leave them on the sea floor.

1085
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,200
Like if we don't, if we don't have the
capacity to, don't move, if we don't have

1086
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,794
the capacity to process 'em yet, they're
not, these metals aren't entering the,

1087
00:49:13,799 --> 00:49:16,140
the commodity supply chain anytime soon.

1088
00:49:16,140 --> 00:49:16,230
Right.

1089
00:49:16,649 --> 00:49:21,060
Um, why don't we get the refining
capacity up first, and why don't we

1090
00:49:21,060 --> 00:49:25,319
develop the refining capacity that
can also take advantage of existing

1091
00:49:25,319 --> 00:49:27,210
sources of these metals within the us.

1092
00:49:27,210 --> 00:49:27,299
Mm-hmm.

1093
00:49:27,540 --> 00:49:28,475
There's been some studies
that have come out.

1094
00:49:29,145 --> 00:49:32,655
That show that we can meet almost
a hundred percent of our critical

1095
00:49:32,655 --> 00:49:37,665
metals needs by, um, looking at
the byproducts from existing mines.

1096
00:49:38,055 --> 00:49:40,005
So metals that have already been mined.

1097
00:49:40,125 --> 00:49:43,515
Um, the mining tailings, the mining
waste, the environmental impact that

1098
00:49:43,515 --> 00:49:47,145
has already happened, that has, you
know, the damage has already been done.

1099
00:49:47,175 --> 00:49:47,265
Mm-hmm.

1100
00:49:47,505 --> 00:49:51,045
Going back into those tailings
and maximizing the amount of

1101
00:49:51,045 --> 00:49:52,815
metals we get out of Yeah.

1102
00:49:52,905 --> 00:49:56,835
The harm we've already caused before
we begin exploring a new frontier.

1103
00:49:57,165 --> 00:49:59,655
And what's the response to the
industry when they, when, when

1104
00:49:59,655 --> 00:50:00,795
you bring that kind of stuff up.

1105
00:50:01,845 --> 00:50:02,685
Oh, it's too complex.

1106
00:50:03,884 --> 00:50:06,735
But deep sea mining is, is
almost certainly one of the most

1107
00:50:06,735 --> 00:50:08,295
complicated industries Yeah.

1108
00:50:08,295 --> 00:50:09,585
Uh, that we've ever conceived of.

1109
00:50:09,585 --> 00:50:12,585
And it's taken us 70 years to get
to this point without producing a

1110
00:50:12,585 --> 00:50:14,355
single ounce of commercial or so.

1111
00:50:14,685 --> 00:50:15,855
It's all complex.

1112
00:50:15,860 --> 00:50:16,259
It's all complex.

1113
00:50:16,259 --> 00:50:18,735
If you're not willing to dive into
something complicated, then you're

1114
00:50:18,735 --> 00:50:19,935
in the wrong industry, you know?

1115
00:50:19,964 --> 00:50:20,895
Exactly.

1116
00:50:21,194 --> 00:50:25,095
Now, one thing that I, I, and you kind of
reminded me just by mentioning it, that

1117
00:50:25,095 --> 00:50:30,225
came up a lot, and I know with the way
geopolitics is kind of, uh, stemming out

1118
00:50:30,225 --> 00:50:35,475
for the US and the world, uh, the country,
China came up a lot in this hearing.

1119
00:50:35,475 --> 00:50:35,565
Yes.

1120
00:50:35,565 --> 00:50:37,605
I was surprised, uh, to hear it.

1121
00:50:37,665 --> 00:50:38,955
Surprised and not surprised.

1122
00:50:39,105 --> 00:50:43,575
I wasn't expecting it to be mentioned that
much, but it seems like a bit of a race,

1123
00:50:43,904 --> 00:50:48,045
uh, because like they're saying, China's
already doing this, China's already

1124
00:50:48,045 --> 00:50:51,825
ready to do this, and they're, they're,
it sounded like they've already been.

1125
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:53,160
Deep sea money.

1126
00:50:53,610 --> 00:50:54,780
Has that happened?

1127
00:50:55,170 --> 00:50:56,850
Uh, and was I just mistaken?

1128
00:50:56,850 --> 00:50:57,990
Was that said at the hearing?

1129
00:50:57,990 --> 00:51:01,260
But there seems to be a lot of
concern over China and, and the US

1130
00:51:01,260 --> 00:51:03,030
wanting to beat China to the punch.

1131
00:51:03,450 --> 00:51:10,710
So there is a lot of, uh, xenophobia
going on in, in US politics right now.

1132
00:51:10,890 --> 00:51:13,170
Fear of China surpassing us in.

1133
00:51:13,260 --> 00:51:13,500
Right.

1134
00:51:13,590 --> 00:51:14,520
A lot of different ways.

1135
00:51:14,610 --> 00:51:18,630
And part of that is that China does
currently control something like 95%

1136
00:51:18,630 --> 00:51:22,980
of the refining capacity for critical
minerals for the world supply.

1137
00:51:22,980 --> 00:51:23,730
So, gotcha.

1138
00:51:23,730 --> 00:51:26,520
You know, they're not all mined
in China, but almost all of them

1139
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:28,590
go to China for, uh, refining.

1140
00:51:28,590 --> 00:51:28,740
Yeah.

1141
00:51:28,745 --> 00:51:29,485
And then get That makes sense.

1142
00:51:29,485 --> 00:51:30,300
And then get distributed.

1143
00:51:30,570 --> 00:51:32,370
Those are, that's for terrestrial mining.

1144
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:32,730
Yes.

1145
00:51:32,730 --> 00:51:34,590
China has not mined the deep sea.

1146
00:51:34,830 --> 00:51:36,960
They have invested in
deep sea exploration.

1147
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,720
They have invested a tremendous
amount in deep sea exploration.

1148
00:51:40,020 --> 00:51:42,480
They have invested in deep
sea mining technology.

1149
00:51:42,855 --> 00:51:45,405
They have lease blocks with the
International Seabed Authority

1150
00:51:45,465 --> 00:51:49,185
for polymetallic nodule fields
as well as cobalt rich crusts

1151
00:51:49,245 --> 00:51:50,625
and sea floor massive sulfites.

1152
00:51:50,625 --> 00:51:51,915
So hydrothermal vent mining.

1153
00:51:52,485 --> 00:51:58,125
Um, they are pursuing, uh, a, a future
that involves deep sea mining within the

1154
00:51:58,125 --> 00:52:02,955
framework of the ISA China did ratify
the Con Convention on the Law of the Sea.

1155
00:52:03,135 --> 00:52:04,245
They are party of that treaty.

1156
00:52:04,245 --> 00:52:07,965
They are beholden to the international
sea, but authority, um, you know, I

1157
00:52:07,965 --> 00:52:14,775
think there was a lot of, you know,
using China as a boogeyman mm-hmm.

1158
00:52:15,015 --> 00:52:15,095
To address Yeah.

1159
00:52:15,095 --> 00:52:15,105
Yeah.

1160
00:52:15,105 --> 00:52:21,705
The US' own, uh, production inadequacies
within our country because we have focused

1161
00:52:21,705 --> 00:52:23,895
on building a service economy for so long.

1162
00:52:23,900 --> 00:52:24,210
Mm-hmm.

1163
00:52:24,290 --> 00:52:29,685
And have lost a lot of our manufacturing
and, uh, material production capacity.

1164
00:52:30,045 --> 00:52:30,615
Um.

1165
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:36,810
I am not particularly like I I I, I do
to some extent agree that like you sh one

1166
00:52:36,810 --> 00:52:39,509
actor controlling 95% of a supply chain.

1167
00:52:39,629 --> 00:52:39,690
Yeah.

1168
00:52:39,690 --> 00:52:39,870
Not good.

1169
00:52:39,870 --> 00:52:41,549
Next Generation minerals is not great.

1170
00:52:41,549 --> 00:52:41,609
Yeah.

1171
00:52:41,819 --> 00:52:46,379
We should be investing in, in refining
technology in the US and in Canada

1172
00:52:46,379 --> 00:52:50,670
and in our allies and everywhere else
because diversifying, diversifying

1173
00:52:50,670 --> 00:52:52,589
that supply benefits everyone.

1174
00:52:53,100 --> 00:52:57,870
Um, I very much disagree with the
idea that China is gonna like beat

1175
00:52:57,870 --> 00:53:01,560
us to the deep sea and take over
the high Seas and, you know, beat

1176
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:02,730
us to the punch on deep sea mining.

1177
00:53:02,730 --> 00:53:07,560
I think if anything, China is very, very
happy with the current state of affairs.

1178
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:11,580
We're deep sea mining is moving
incredibly slowly And so potential

1179
00:53:11,580 --> 00:53:15,390
competitors are not coming online
to challenge their supply stream.

1180
00:53:15,390 --> 00:53:15,450
Yeah.

1181
00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:20,339
I think looking at how they've
acted within the ISA and how they've

1182
00:53:20,399 --> 00:53:23,230
promoted the development of the
regulations, I think they are, um.

1183
00:53:24,150 --> 00:53:28,590
Not unhappy with the current pace
of DC mining negotiations, while

1184
00:53:28,590 --> 00:53:31,500
of course they're working on
developing technology and studying

1185
00:53:31,500 --> 00:53:33,240
resources and all these other things.

1186
00:53:33,750 --> 00:53:37,200
Um, you know, that being said,
China is a boogeyman for us.

1187
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,930
Politics is not something that ever
sits particularly well with me.

1188
00:53:40,380 --> 00:53:44,310
Um, you know, China is an economic
powerhouse and we do a lot of

1189
00:53:44,310 --> 00:53:45,510
trade with them and mm-hmm.

1190
00:53:45,750 --> 00:53:47,760
You know, we should treat
our trade partners like

1191
00:53:47,820 --> 00:53:49,530
partners and not adversaries.

1192
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:52,860
Um, you know, even if there are
tremendous political disagreements,

1193
00:53:52,860 --> 00:53:57,000
there are also like tremendous
positions of agreement as well.

1194
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,240
And in addition to that, China is
facing one of the biggest demographic

1195
00:54:00,240 --> 00:54:04,110
cliffs in, um, the, the world
right now and in world history.

1196
00:54:04,470 --> 00:54:08,220
Um, because the, you know, the
population explosion that fueled

1197
00:54:08,220 --> 00:54:11,490
a lot of their economic power
in the nineties is petering out.

1198
00:54:11,700 --> 00:54:15,390
The one child policy, one child policy put
tremendous pressure on their demographics.

1199
00:54:15,390 --> 00:54:15,450
Yeah.

1200
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:19,740
Um, you know, they're looking at,
you know, an aging population.

1201
00:54:20,069 --> 00:54:25,350
Um, they're looking at, uh, transitioning
into a service-based economy to

1202
00:54:25,350 --> 00:54:27,120
take care of their older citizens.

1203
00:54:27,540 --> 00:54:32,069
And, you know, I think, you know,
the, these, these projections of

1204
00:54:32,069 --> 00:54:35,879
China as this great enemy that we're
gonna be facing over the next 50

1205
00:54:35,879 --> 00:54:37,319
years is just completely unfounded.

1206
00:54:37,319 --> 00:54:37,410
Mm-hmm.

1207
00:54:38,190 --> 00:54:41,790
We're all gonna be, we're all gonna be in
it together, especially as climate change.

1208
00:54:42,060 --> 00:54:42,480
Uh Oh Yeah.

1209
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,839
Accelerates and like, you
know, either we're all in it

1210
00:54:45,839 --> 00:54:47,850
together or we all drown alone.

1211
00:54:48,165 --> 00:54:48,515
Yeah.

1212
00:54:49,109 --> 00:54:49,410
Yeah.

1213
00:54:49,415 --> 00:54:49,634
Yeah.

1214
00:54:49,980 --> 00:54:54,420
And, uh, unfortunately the ladder
seems to be going very strong over

1215
00:54:54,420 --> 00:54:57,120
the last couple of months and the
last couple in the last year or so.

1216
00:54:57,450 --> 00:54:59,370
Um, but yeah, I, I find that interesting.

1217
00:54:59,370 --> 00:55:03,509
Now, overall, getting back to the
hearing, overall your experience, like,

1218
00:55:03,509 --> 00:55:07,500
how do you rate it one outta 10, your
experience with this, with this hearing?

1219
00:55:09,569 --> 00:55:15,060
So this is not, um, you know, this
is not something I would, I would.

1220
00:55:15,405 --> 00:55:19,845
Uh, enjoy doing or, or suggest
that you, you, you pursue for fun.

1221
00:55:19,845 --> 00:55:21,135
Everybody's gonna do it at one point.

1222
00:55:21,530 --> 00:55:25,545
Um, you know, it wasn't, it
was a collegial experience.

1223
00:55:25,545 --> 00:55:25,555
Right.

1224
00:55:25,555 --> 00:55:28,965
And it was, you know, it was a,
it was a, it was entirely, you

1225
00:55:28,965 --> 00:55:31,035
know, it was not adversarial.

1226
00:55:31,185 --> 00:55:34,245
Uh, the Jack Smith hearings were
happening in, in the main halls

1227
00:55:34,245 --> 00:55:36,225
of Congress, um, that morning.

1228
00:55:36,225 --> 00:55:39,735
So there was a much more contentious
hearing that was conflicting with ours.

1229
00:55:39,735 --> 00:55:43,815
So if you actually looked at the,
um, at the congressional seats in the

1230
00:55:43,815 --> 00:55:46,455
subcommittee, you saw there was never
more than five or six congressmen

1231
00:55:46,515 --> 00:55:48,105
in the hearing at any one time.

1232
00:55:48,135 --> 00:55:49,485
'cause they were going back and forth.

1233
00:55:49,905 --> 00:55:52,245
Um, you know, I'm glad I did it.

1234
00:55:52,245 --> 00:55:56,295
It was an experience and, you
know, I hope I added something

1235
00:55:56,295 --> 00:55:58,125
of value to the conversation.

1236
00:55:58,305 --> 00:55:58,395
Mm-hmm.

1237
00:55:58,635 --> 00:56:01,905
And made sure that the environment,
environment was represented,

1238
00:56:02,295 --> 00:56:04,515
um, in the congressional record.

1239
00:56:04,905 --> 00:56:06,825
Um, you know.

1240
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:10,770
I'm going to a wedding this week, and
I'm way looking more forward to that.

1241
00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:14,280
Nobody's gonna be grilling
you about questions.

1242
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:16,830
Forget, oh, they'll grill me
about deep sea mining for sure.

1243
00:56:16,830 --> 00:56:18,300
Yeah, but forget Andrew in a suit.

1244
00:56:18,300 --> 00:56:20,760
You get the once in a
decade, Andrew, in a tuxedo.

1245
00:56:22,050 --> 00:56:23,250
Oh, there we go.

1246
00:56:23,250 --> 00:56:24,420
Yes, yes.

1247
00:56:24,420 --> 00:56:28,050
So I don't know if I'd, I'd rate
the experiences as anything.

1248
00:56:28,050 --> 00:56:28,110
Yeah.

1249
00:56:28,110 --> 00:56:28,980
But it was certainly.

1250
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,770
I'm, I'm glad I did it, and it was
certainly, um, I feel like a worthwhile

1251
00:56:32,770 --> 00:56:36,400
thing to, to help contribute and, you
know, well, I'm glad you did it too.

1252
00:56:36,490 --> 00:56:37,420
It's on the record.

1253
00:56:37,630 --> 00:56:40,990
It's, uh, you know, it's information
that needed to be on the record.

1254
00:56:40,990 --> 00:56:44,620
As you said, you never know what's gonna
happen in November at the midterms.

1255
00:56:44,950 --> 00:56:48,730
Uh, in 2026, uh, hopefully,
you know, we see some changes.

1256
00:56:49,060 --> 00:56:53,590
Uh, if we do, then this, this, uh,
hearing becomes all that much more

1257
00:56:53,590 --> 00:56:55,780
important, uh, in, in the way it go.

1258
00:56:55,780 --> 00:56:56,650
It moves forward.

1259
00:56:56,710 --> 00:57:01,870
And I, I thought, uh, as, as your friend,
as your colleague, you were amazing.

1260
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:05,500
Um, you know, it was, uh,
phenomenal to see you up there,

1261
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:06,970
you know, giving your expertise.

1262
00:57:06,970 --> 00:57:10,690
I know you've, you've lent your expertise
on this podcast so many times and

1263
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,090
educated myself as well as the audience.

1264
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:15,190
Uh, you know, about deep
sea mining so many times.

1265
00:57:15,190 --> 00:57:17,800
You do it such a great way,
in a very scientific way.

1266
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,870
You're not necessarily
biased, one or the other.

1267
00:57:19,870 --> 00:57:23,200
When you give the information, you're very
upfront, and I, and we appreciate that.

1268
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:23,375
I'm a little biased.

1269
00:57:23,705 --> 00:57:27,065
I'd be a little biased, but, but when
you give it, I mean, I did, I I did

1270
00:57:27,065 --> 00:57:30,694
make a point of, you know, kind of the
deep sea world, according to Andrew,

1271
00:57:30,694 --> 00:57:35,105
is that, you know, sea floor, massive
sulfite, hydrothermal vent mining.

1272
00:57:35,194 --> 00:57:35,944
Absolutely not.

1273
00:57:35,975 --> 00:57:36,305
Never.

1274
00:57:36,365 --> 00:57:36,424
Yeah.

1275
00:57:36,424 --> 00:57:38,555
Can never be done with
environmental responsibility.

1276
00:57:38,674 --> 00:57:40,444
Cobalt, rich crust mining on sea mounts.

1277
00:57:40,444 --> 00:57:41,435
No, not a chance.

1278
00:57:41,435 --> 00:57:42,515
Can't be done right.

1279
00:57:42,515 --> 00:57:43,715
Polymetallic, nodule mining.

1280
00:57:43,950 --> 00:57:47,279
Maybe, but I remain unconvinced.

1281
00:57:47,700 --> 00:57:48,419
Yeah, for sure.

1282
00:57:48,419 --> 00:57:51,330
There's too many, there's too many
unknowns and, and totally understandable.

1283
00:57:51,569 --> 00:57:54,930
As I said, you let the science speak for
yourself, uh, speak, speak for itself.

1284
00:57:55,230 --> 00:57:57,689
Um, but then you, you also, I have
found, you also talked a lot about

1285
00:57:57,689 --> 00:58:00,600
the advancement of the technologies
of DC mining over the last years and

1286
00:58:00,779 --> 00:58:04,859
how it's becoming better and better,
uh, which is improving sort of the,

1287
00:58:04,859 --> 00:58:06,839
the outlook if this ever happens.

1288
00:58:07,140 --> 00:58:08,460
Um, and I thought that was really good.

1289
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:10,620
I thought it was really good that you
mentioned that it shows that, that,

1290
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,109
you know, you're, you're looking
at it from a scientific lens, and I

1291
00:58:13,109 --> 00:58:14,460
think that's, that's really important.

1292
00:58:14,460 --> 00:58:16,080
So I'm proud of you, man.

1293
00:58:16,109 --> 00:58:18,810
Uh, I don't know how much that's
worth, but I'm proud of you and,

1294
00:58:18,810 --> 00:58:21,930
and, and we appreciate all the
work you do and, and, uh, you know,

1295
00:58:21,930 --> 00:58:23,850
this is a lot on your own time.

1296
00:58:24,090 --> 00:58:28,740
You know, and, and you know, it, it, I
think it'll continue to, um, you know, fit

1297
00:58:28,740 --> 00:58:33,810
the, the, the legacy of Dr. Andrew tha in,
in terms of what he's doing to, uh, you

1298
00:58:33,810 --> 00:58:39,030
know, from, from, from title gauges all
the way to Senate, uh, to, to committee,

1299
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:44,010
congress, congressional committee, uh,
test testifying, uh, absolutely amazing.

1300
00:58:44,070 --> 00:58:47,700
Uh, you continue to, to put me
in awe of what you're able to do.

1301
00:58:47,700 --> 00:58:50,010
So thank you so much for, for doing that.

1302
00:58:50,010 --> 00:58:51,510
And thank you so much
for coming on, Andrew.

1303
00:58:51,510 --> 00:58:52,980
Can't wait to to have you back.

1304
00:58:52,980 --> 00:58:54,240
We're working on some stuff Oh, Yeah.

1305
00:58:54,300 --> 00:58:55,380
Behind the scenes folks.

1306
00:58:55,380 --> 00:58:58,710
And, and, um, you'll be seeing a
lot more of Andrew soon Enough.

1307
00:58:58,740 --> 00:59:00,060
Uh, which will, which will be great.

1308
00:59:00,060 --> 00:59:00,570
I can't wait.

1309
00:59:00,570 --> 00:59:02,520
So, uh, thank you so much
for joining us, Andrew.

1310
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:02,850
Appreciate it.

1311
00:59:02,850 --> 00:59:03,900
And thank you so much.

1312
00:59:03,900 --> 00:59:04,980
I'm, I'm a amped.

1313
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:07,110
Right on.

1314
00:59:07,540 --> 00:59:08,150
Talk to you soon.

1315
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:08,590
Right.

1316
00:59:08,745 --> 00:59:12,105
Thank you, Andrew, for joining us again
on the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

1317
00:59:12,105 --> 00:59:13,065
Great to have you on.

1318
00:59:13,155 --> 00:59:16,995
Looking forward to having you on again,
like I said before, we got some stuff

1319
00:59:16,995 --> 00:59:20,535
that we're talking about of doing on a
little bit more semi-permanent basis,

1320
00:59:20,535 --> 00:59:22,575
I guess, where gonna be on a lot more.

1321
00:59:22,585 --> 00:59:24,175
Than he is now, which is great.

1322
00:59:24,295 --> 00:59:24,775
Love it.

1323
00:59:24,775 --> 00:59:27,145
Because Andrew always brings the
heat when he brings the content.

1324
00:59:27,235 --> 00:59:28,495
So we're gonna talk about that.

1325
00:59:28,495 --> 00:59:31,435
We'll let you know as this develops,
but it's gonna be a lot of fun.

1326
00:59:31,525 --> 00:59:32,575
I hope you enjoyed the interview.

1327
00:59:32,575 --> 00:59:37,225
I hope you enjoyed what goes on in looking
at a committee and people who testify.

1328
00:59:37,345 --> 00:59:40,615
It's great when a buddy of yours
testifies and you really get his feelings.

1329
00:59:40,675 --> 00:59:45,025
Another buddy of ours who is my co-host
on the Polar Bears and Flip Flops podcast,

1330
00:59:45,115 --> 00:59:48,865
it was in the background and I remember
him sending me pictures of him in the

1331
00:59:48,865 --> 00:59:50,695
background with Andrew in the foreground.

1332
00:59:50,785 --> 00:59:54,925
You know, two great buddies, two great
Ocean conservation people that are in the

1333
00:59:54,925 --> 00:59:59,035
industry, making sure that they know, and
they represent science and conservation

1334
00:59:59,035 --> 01:00:02,605
and the people that are being affected,
especially the territories that are being

1335
01:00:02,605 --> 01:00:05,005
affected by potential deep sea mining.

1336
01:00:05,170 --> 01:00:09,160
And I thought it was great to see for
the territories, to have the ability,

1337
01:00:09,190 --> 01:00:13,810
Guam, marina Islands, American Samoa,
to be able to speak out and be like,

1338
01:00:13,810 --> 01:00:17,380
Hey, you haven't included us during the
process and we're gonna be affected by it.

1339
01:00:17,410 --> 01:00:19,570
We need to be part of the conversation.

1340
01:00:19,570 --> 01:00:20,650
You need to include us in.

1341
01:00:20,770 --> 01:00:23,530
I thought that was great that they
got to say that and it's on record.

1342
01:00:23,590 --> 01:00:27,400
I also thought it was interesting Andrew's
point about who's gonna be observing,

1343
01:00:27,490 --> 01:00:28,780
not, you can't be the mining company.

1344
01:00:28,780 --> 01:00:31,540
Somebody's gotta be observing what
they're doing and if anything goes

1345
01:00:31,540 --> 01:00:34,090
wrong, what that shutdown would look
like, what the studies would look

1346
01:00:34,090 --> 01:00:37,180
like after that, how the effect would
happen and what that overall effect

1347
01:00:37,180 --> 01:00:40,840
is if the shutdowns don't happen, and
how long they go down for if they,

1348
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:42,370
or if they don't even go down at all.

1349
01:00:42,460 --> 01:00:43,750
A lot of things to consider.

1350
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:47,560
And Andrew kind of, he went on, it was
kind of cool, he went on a bit of a rant

1351
01:00:47,590 --> 01:00:54,400
of what is the realities of this type
of information, of this type of process.

1352
01:00:54,550 --> 01:00:59,590
And you know, at the end he says the
hydrogen sulfide mining no good, the sea

1353
01:00:59,620 --> 01:01:04,390
mount mining, no good polymetallic nodules
potentially, but he's not convinced.

1354
01:01:04,615 --> 01:01:08,035
There's still a lot of questions that
go around the effects that we have.

1355
01:01:08,065 --> 01:01:11,245
The connectivity within the
Deep Sea is still not known.

1356
01:01:11,275 --> 01:01:15,985
The amount of unique habitats
that could be supporting our Ocean

1357
01:01:15,985 --> 01:01:19,135
processes, we just don't know about
and we don't know where they are.

1358
01:01:19,225 --> 01:01:20,485
We're discovering 'em all the time.

1359
01:01:20,485 --> 01:01:24,085
There's new technology that can help,
but we still have a lot more work to do.

1360
01:01:24,085 --> 01:01:25,675
So even if this all happens.

1361
01:01:25,990 --> 01:01:29,410
We don't even have refineries to
actually refine them and to get them

1362
01:01:29,410 --> 01:01:31,750
to extract the metals from the nodules.

1363
01:01:31,900 --> 01:01:33,370
And so is this all for naught?

1364
01:01:33,370 --> 01:01:34,510
Are we rushing into this?

1365
01:01:34,540 --> 01:01:35,950
Just for rushing into it?

1366
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:38,980
As Andrew says, if you're gonna put
a stockpile 'em on land, why don't

1367
01:01:38,980 --> 01:01:41,890
you just leave 'em in the Ocean
for now and not disturb anything?

1368
01:01:42,010 --> 01:01:44,530
A lot of questions to be had, and
I would love to hear your questions

1369
01:01:44,530 --> 01:01:45,970
or comments on this episode.

1370
01:01:45,970 --> 01:01:48,550
If you're watching this on YouTube,
put it in the comedy section below.

1371
01:01:48,670 --> 01:01:50,770
If you're listening to this on
your favorite podcast app, I

1372
01:01:50,770 --> 01:01:52,330
would love to hear your feedback.

1373
01:01:52,330 --> 01:01:55,600
Go to speak up for blue.com/feedback.

1374
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:56,770
I'd love to hear what you have to say.

1375
01:01:56,950 --> 01:01:57,970
Questions, comments.

1376
01:01:58,030 --> 01:01:59,260
You can put in as a voicemail.

1377
01:01:59,260 --> 01:02:00,400
You can put it in as written.

1378
01:02:00,460 --> 01:02:03,970
I would love to hear what you have
to say about deep sea mining 'cause

1379
01:02:03,970 --> 01:02:05,260
this is the start of a conversation.

1380
01:02:05,260 --> 01:02:08,860
I'd love to continue that with you and
hear your thoughts and what you wanna

1381
01:02:08,860 --> 01:02:13,210
see happen with deep sea mining in the
US as well as beyond in the high Seas.

1382
01:02:13,420 --> 01:02:17,170
So I wanna thank you so much everybody,
and thank you obviously to Andrew Thaler

1383
01:02:17,230 --> 01:02:20,620
for joining us on today's episode of
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

1384
01:02:20,620 --> 01:02:23,830
I'm your host Angel and from the true
Nordstrom and free, have a great day.

1385
01:02:23,830 --> 01:02:26,050
We'll talk to you next time
and happy conservation.