What is ethical seafood, and why the way fish are treated could change how you eat forever

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Are fish treated well, that's gonna
be the topic of today's episode.

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Have you ever thought about the
welfare of fish either in wild caught

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fisheries or aquacultured fisheries?

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Not a topic that we think about often.

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We also think about the welfare of like
us as seafood eaters and sustainable

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seafood eaters, and making sure that
we're eating the right seafood and

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making sure that some of those fish
are not being exploited and being sold

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fraudulently, having, Hey, I want to
eat sea bass, but it's actually tilapia.

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Or I want to eat tuna, but it's actually a
shark that has a lot of carcinogens in it.

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There's a lot of stuff that goes
around the seafood industry, and

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we gotta make sure that we are
treating these animals properly.

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So we're gonna talk to Wasim Imam,
who is the founder of the Ethical

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Seafood Research Organization.

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You can find more
information@ethicalseafoodresearch.com.

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We're gonna be talking to him
about the welfare of fish.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody.

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Welcome back to another exciting episode
of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, Marine
biologist and science communicator

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here to tell you what's happening with
the Ocean, how you can speak up for

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the Ocean, and what you can do to live
for a better Ocean by taking action.

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And on today's episode, we're gonna
be talking about the welfare of.

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Fish, because that's something
that we don't talk about on this

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episode a lot because I think when
people think of fish, they just

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think about food, like fish is food.

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That's how we think about it.

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We catch fish whenever we really
see fish, unless it's at an

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aquarium or in your own aquarium.

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You look at it and you're
just like, it's on a plate.

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You know?

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If I look up salmon and I look up
on the internet, I Google search it.

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You're gonna see salmon on a plate.

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You're gonna see how delicious salmon
is and how you can, you know, different

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ways of cooking and all the different
recipes, but you're not really gonna

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see a lot of salmon just underwater.

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But we don't think of how they
feel that they feel pain, what they

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have to go through in their lives.

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Mother nature can be quite cruel to
fish, especially schooling fish, or

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they're getting eaten by a lot of
different predators And so forth.

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When we talk about how humans
interact with fish, a lot of times

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welfare is not really brought up
in the regular conversation because

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we just think of them as food.

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We don't think that they
feel pain, but they do.

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Welfare needs to be addressed.

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And I have on the podcast today,
Wasim Imam, who is the founder

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of Ethical Seafood Research.

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He talks about his life growing up,
wanting to be involved in Marine

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conservation, then finding just
a different path, going all over

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the world for schooling and stuff,
including Canada, here in Toronto,

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not far from where I grew up.

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And being able to start an organization
because you know, you want to

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make sure that there are some set
standards and people are following

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the set standards on fish welfare.

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And so I think it's really
important to have that conversation.

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So was is here to talk about that.

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So here is the interview with
Wassam, talking about ethical

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seafood research and fish welfare.

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Enjoy the interview and
I'll talk to you after.

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Hey em.

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Welcome to the How to
Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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Are you ready to talk
about the welfare of fish?

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Yes.

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I'm really excited about this.

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Yeah, I've been waiting for this for
a while now since we touched base.

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Absolutely.

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I'm super excited about this.

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This is, uh.

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Is it a subject matter that we
don't go into often on this podcast?

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And I think it's, it's kind of a bit
of a shame that we don't, because it's

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something that we need to talk about more.

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We're gonna be talking about fish welfare
and looking at the fish and ethical

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seafood and all that wonderful stuff.

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Uh, And so there's gonna be a
lot of questions, but before we

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get into all of that, well see.

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Why don't we, uh, talk about
a little bit about you.

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Why don't you let us know about
who you are and what you do?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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So, and I actually, that's exactly
why I'm excited about this because

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I appreciate that this is not the
typical topic from what I've heard

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of your previous, uh, episodes.

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Right?

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So thank you for having me.

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So I'm an aquatic ecologist.

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Uh, everything I've ever done has
involved fish in one way or another.

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I, uh.

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Uh, then got into fish
welfare, uh, a bit by chance.

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I'll talk about that a bit later on.

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But, so I now describe myself as
an aquatic ecologist by trade,

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but a fish welfare researcher.

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And I'm also the founder and executive
director of a small non-profit called

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Ethical Seafood Research, where we
advocate for improving the welfare

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of, uh, aquatic animals in the food
system and the aquatic food system,

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obviously, uh, particularly in Africa.

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But we do have operations and projects
outside of that as well that I can

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touch upon, uh, during the call,
uh, during the, uh, recording.

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Very nice, very nice.

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This is, uh, this is really cool
because, you know, you don't meet

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a lot of people who are involved in
welfare of fish, especially, you know,

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there's welfare of like, zoological
animals, you know, animals that

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are, that are in zoos and things.

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I know there's a, a huge, huge area
of interest in, in that respect.

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Um, but when you, we looking at fish,
we look at, you know, obviously we look

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at especially from farm fish and, and,
and, uh, wild seafood, wild caught fish.

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Uh, you know, there's, there's
also worries about pain and, and,

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and worries about how they're
raised and, uh, how they're caught.

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And of course, uh, so
it's, it makes sense.

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Uh, right.

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But let, I want to go
back a little bit further.

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Before you got into this, as you
said, you kind of came by happenstance

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in, in terms in, into this field.

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What originally drew you to being
interested in, in fisheries or

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even just in the Ocean in general?

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Yeah, so my origin story as they
call it, um, I was working with the,

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so I did my undergrad in Canada.

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Uh, one of my many nationalities
is Canadian, so I, uh Oh, nice.

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Where from?

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Uh, Toronto.

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Oh, I, that's like, I'm right by you.

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Like I was, I live in Burlington,
so I grew up in Toronto.

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That's awesome.

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Oh, so actually Burlington is
one of the places I did work

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on Fish with the Great Lakes.

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Uh, yeah.

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Inland, yeah.

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The Leland Waters.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah.

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Nice, nice.

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So that was another place
where I cut my teeth a bit.

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Yeah.

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I was working with the Ontario
Ministry of the Environment

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in Otoko, if you know Right.

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I know exactly where that office is.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So during, during my undergrad, I
did like the co-op program, uh, okay.

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The metal science and my
third co-op placement.

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I was with the ministry there and I
was, uh, my title was Biomonitoring

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Technician, so I would be going
out with the senior biomonitoring

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technician and well, by monitoring
scientists, I guess it was called.

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And, um, I was helping him collect samples
of fish from D. Areas of Ontario to sample

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to, to sample levels of contaminants
and Right, that informs the, what used

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to be called the sport fish guide.

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Uh, like contaminant, guider.

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It tells you like the safe levels to
eat of, um, you know, fish caught from

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this area, uh, for pregnant women, for
children, for older folk And so on.

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And it was my first time ever really
being out in aquatic environment,

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like on boats, maybe for like true
Canadians, like where they grow up,

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like hunting and fishing and stuff.

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It's not that like exciting, but for
me it is like a new comer to Canada.

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It was a completely new
thing to me, you know?

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Uh, so being out like in the
field, uh, like working with fish,

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really, I just loved all of that.

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Right.

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But on top of that, I started realizing
just how vulnerable fish were, you know?

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Mm. Uh, so we, you know, my, we
would wanted just a sample of 20 or

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30 juvenile fish, but, you know, by
staining we were catching like hons.

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And as my boss was trying to like, get
the sample perfect, I was just trying

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to save all these fish that I was
like, they're gonna die unnecessarily.

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And then I started realizing just how, you
know, fish in inland water especially are

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so at the mercy of like human activities
and how we have the ability to like, over

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exploit the o Well, I mean, obviously
I took it to the next level of oceans,

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but just in general, um, freshwater
fish to me seemed very vulnerable.

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You know, that Yeah.

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Water levels, uh, they, they're at the
mercy of the water levels being mm-hmm.

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Enough, they can't, they don't always
have huge distances that they can escape,

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you know, natural fluctuations And so on.

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Whereas, you know,
birds can fly or mm-hmm.

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You know, land animals might have.

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Obviously I'm simplifying things, of
course, but course that's kind what got

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me thinking like, oh God, you know, these
animals are actually quite vulnerable.

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Yeah.

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And for my, for my masters, And
then did another project where I

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looked at the movement behavior of
tilapia through McGill University.

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They had a research station in Uganda.

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Yeah, I, I tracked the
telemetry, I using telemetry.

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I tracked the movement behavior of tilapia
there, which is something that no one's

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done or no one had done at the time.

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And I just loved this idea of radio
tags and discovering like, you know,

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the innate movement patterns and stuff
about species you don't know about.

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And from there I continued to that.

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I worked for the FAO for a bit,
um, uh, fisheries in aquaculture,

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like sustainability and like
at a policy level, global.

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But I didn't, I didn't
enjoy that work too much.

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I got funding from in Canada to.

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Do a PhD. So you're working for the FAO
but still went while living in Canada.

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'cause I know FAOI always assume
it's in Europe or like in in

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Rome or something like that.

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It's, it is.

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Exactly, exactly.

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I see.

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But you did it from, from Canada?

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No, I actually had to move to Rome.

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Oh, you had to move to Rome.

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Okay, cool.

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So, and even the funding that I
got, the NC uh, like PhD funding.

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Yeah.

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They, I, they allowed
me to take it anywhere.

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So I took a to Scotland And so Cool.

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And I did a PhD there with uh, uh,
with a group that had, was looking

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at aquaculture and my supervisor
there told me, Hey, have you thought

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of animal welfare or fish welfare?

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And I was like, no, I don't
really know what that is.

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And that's kind of what got me into this.

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So we can talk about that.

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But I was just giving you a high
level sort of like I love it.

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Overview of my journey.

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Yeah.

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Well I mean it's very interesting
'cause like you did a lot of traveling.

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What made you first come to Canada
to do the, do the undergrad at

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u at University of Toronto, UFT.

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Yeah, so my dad, uh, wanted to come
to Canada from like, when I was

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young, and he said to me like, you
know, that's where the future is.

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You know, I was in high school in
England, I was in the uk and um, okay.

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It just, you know, Europe was always
seen as like kind of still a bit,

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you know, struggling in the past,
whereas the future is North America

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and there's like opportunities ing.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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And I think that there is a lot
of truth in that, to be fair.

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Uh, you know, especially at the time, so
when I moved to the UK for high school,

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it was the same year, same month, same,
same week as nine 11, and you can Oh, wow.

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Yeah.

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And I'm from the Middle East
originally, so like Right.

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I got used to some really, like,
I don't, I don't think this is

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a different than your audience.

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No, but I mean, you're not used to Yeah.

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00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:50,235
It, it, it, it forms who you are because
these are like the, the, the, you know,

231
00:09:50,265 --> 00:09:55,425
I think that's what, that's what gets
left out of a lot of, um, you know,

232
00:09:55,425 --> 00:09:58,875
people discuss when we discuss Marine,
Marine biology or anything Marine

233
00:09:58,875 --> 00:10:03,555
conservation related, is we, we leave
out what's happened to people throughout.

234
00:10:04,125 --> 00:10:06,465
You know, throughout their lives,
you know, we are impacted by

235
00:10:06,465 --> 00:10:07,755
what's happening in our lives.

236
00:10:07,755 --> 00:10:10,965
Like the people right now, in many
places around, especially here in

237
00:10:10,965 --> 00:10:14,685
North America, we are impacted by
decisions made by the US government.

238
00:10:14,685 --> 00:10:17,655
Right now, whether we agree with
them or not, we are impacted.

239
00:10:17,655 --> 00:10:22,095
Like there are people whose jobs in
the states are impacted by what all

240
00:10:22,125 --> 00:10:23,895
the cuts that are happening at Noah.

241
00:10:23,895 --> 00:10:27,075
And so it, it definitely shapes
where we're gonna go, where we're

242
00:10:27,075 --> 00:10:30,345
gonna live, how we're gonna be
treated when we go to certain places.

243
00:10:30,585 --> 00:10:34,755
Um, you know, you going to the UK from
the, from the Middle East, um, and what

244
00:10:34,755 --> 00:10:35,955
country you, are you originally from?

245
00:10:36,315 --> 00:10:36,645
Egypt.

246
00:10:37,125 --> 00:10:38,175
So Egypt, right?

247
00:10:38,205 --> 00:10:41,565
Yeah, like very well educated,
you know, like a great, like

248
00:10:41,595 --> 00:10:45,075
in Egypt, like they, they have
like, you know, stable structure,

249
00:10:45,075 --> 00:10:47,265
like, you know, history, culture.

250
00:10:47,475 --> 00:10:50,235
You go to the, you go to,
uh, a place like the UK.

251
00:10:50,325 --> 00:10:53,505
During nine 11, you probably could have
come to any place like even the US or

252
00:10:53,505 --> 00:10:56,685
Canada, And then you're looked differently
and you get treated differently.

253
00:10:56,690 --> 00:10:56,850
Absolutely.

254
00:10:56,970 --> 00:10:57,090
Absolutely.

255
00:10:57,090 --> 00:10:59,145
You know, and not by, I mean,
you were in high school, like,

256
00:10:59,385 --> 00:11:00,765
you know, you didn't do anything.

257
00:11:01,125 --> 00:11:04,275
Parents came over for, for what
you say is like a better life,

258
00:11:04,275 --> 00:11:06,165
And so you get impacted by that.

259
00:11:06,165 --> 00:11:08,805
So yeah, never leave that out of
your story because that's who you

260
00:11:08,805 --> 00:11:10,485
are, are and what you've become.

261
00:11:10,575 --> 00:11:11,325
You know what I mean?

262
00:11:11,745 --> 00:11:11,925
Totally.

263
00:11:12,765 --> 00:11:15,495
Now did like, but actually
Andrew, sorry to interrupt you.

264
00:11:15,495 --> 00:11:16,095
Yeah, go ahead.

265
00:11:16,095 --> 00:11:19,064
Just on that note, I do remember, and
I always tell this anecdote because

266
00:11:19,064 --> 00:11:20,505
it, it stayed with me for so long.

267
00:11:20,505 --> 00:11:24,824
Like, I came back to the UK for
Christmas and I went back to, uh,

268
00:11:24,855 --> 00:11:26,834
Canada after my first semester or term.

269
00:11:26,834 --> 00:11:26,925
Mm-hmm.

270
00:11:27,194 --> 00:11:28,095
Uh, university.

271
00:11:28,425 --> 00:11:29,925
And I had a PR card.

272
00:11:29,925 --> 00:11:30,135
Right.

273
00:11:30,135 --> 00:11:30,795
So I was Yeah.

274
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:31,064
Yeah, of course.

275
00:11:31,185 --> 00:11:34,814
A resident and the border guard in Canada,
I don't even, what do we call them?

276
00:11:34,814 --> 00:11:36,209
Like the customs officer Yeah.

277
00:11:36,214 --> 00:11:36,765
Yeah, exactly.

278
00:11:36,765 --> 00:11:40,064
Like the guy said to me, welcome
home, sir. And I was like, what?

279
00:11:40,155 --> 00:11:40,665
Oh my God.

280
00:11:40,665 --> 00:11:43,845
Like that just felt like
already a huge difference, Yeah.

281
00:11:43,850 --> 00:11:43,860
Yeah.

282
00:11:43,860 --> 00:11:47,324
You know, and that always build part
of this kind of like, feeling like

283
00:11:47,324 --> 00:11:49,515
you're part of something and you
don't have to prove who you are.

284
00:11:49,515 --> 00:11:50,535
You can look like anything.

285
00:11:50,535 --> 00:11:51,975
And especially Toronto, right?

286
00:11:51,975 --> 00:11:52,545
Like, uh, yeah.

287
00:11:52,574 --> 00:11:54,165
Well, Toronto's so multicultural Yeah.

288
00:11:54,165 --> 00:11:54,765
Yeah, absolutely.

289
00:11:54,765 --> 00:11:54,824
Yeah.

290
00:11:54,855 --> 00:11:56,530
Sorry I cut you off, but you
were gonna say something.

291
00:11:56,895 --> 00:11:59,625
Well, what I was gonna say is like, you
know, as you grew up in that like, you

292
00:11:59,625 --> 00:12:04,275
know, in the UK in high school and, and
you're like, did you, did you still have

293
00:12:04,275 --> 00:12:08,865
that interest, you know, for, for oceans,
like you must have had like for freshwater

294
00:12:08,865 --> 00:12:11,895
or oceans to come to UFT to do a degree.

295
00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:14,280
Did you, was that the purpose?

296
00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,700
Like you were coming like, you know,
like you go to from the UK to Canada

297
00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:21,330
to be like, okay, this is what I want
to do with, you know, better place.

298
00:12:21,330 --> 00:12:24,360
As you mentioned, like this is like going
to North America for a better place.

299
00:12:24,930 --> 00:12:30,000
Were you always interested in oceans
or, or aquatic life even in high school?

300
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,620
So I actually think that came a bit
later and sometimes I, I do regret just

301
00:12:34,620 --> 00:12:37,650
that it took me that long for the, you
know, penny to drop, let's say, right?

302
00:12:37,950 --> 00:12:42,180
Because biology was always my favorite
subject, but you know, I didn't follow.

303
00:12:42,540 --> 00:12:46,590
What I liked as much as what I was good
at and what I was really good at was

304
00:12:46,590 --> 00:12:50,580
business studies somehow, like I excelled
anything to do with business, like

305
00:12:50,580 --> 00:12:53,010
that was my top, top subject in the uk.

306
00:12:53,190 --> 00:12:55,410
So I thought, oh, well, you
know, making money is good.

307
00:12:55,410 --> 00:12:56,520
And I was just thinking about that.

308
00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,030
I didn't, I wasn't really in
tune with my interest per se.

309
00:13:00,060 --> 00:13:00,480
Mm-hmm.

310
00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:02,850
And then, And then when I actually
moved to Canada and I realized that

311
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,150
management, business management was
like an actual very mathematical,

312
00:13:06,150 --> 00:13:10,980
very like financey, like I just didn't
like it at all when I started and I

313
00:13:10,980 --> 00:13:13,950
picked up the prospectus and I started
thinking, well, what do I actually like?

314
00:13:13,950 --> 00:13:14,880
And I'm like, mm-hmm.

315
00:13:14,886 --> 00:13:19,080
I've always liked sciencey subjects
and sort of animals and, uh, biology.

316
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,370
And so, and it seemed like a no-brainer
to change to environmental science with

317
00:13:23,370 --> 00:13:28,650
a focus on, um, environment, uh, like the
aquatic, uh, aquatic domain especially.

318
00:13:28,650 --> 00:13:31,860
And then co-op shifted me
very much in that direction.

319
00:13:31,860 --> 00:13:32,130
Yeah.

320
00:13:32,130 --> 00:13:32,430
Interesting.

321
00:13:32,700 --> 00:13:34,830
So that's kind of where I
was a bit late in that sense.

322
00:13:34,830 --> 00:13:35,880
You know, like, was it Yeah.

323
00:13:35,885 --> 00:13:35,925
Yeah.

324
00:13:36,555 --> 00:13:37,694
What I truly liked.

325
00:13:37,875 --> 00:13:38,115
Yeah.

326
00:13:38,145 --> 00:13:40,665
And, and I think that's, I think
it's a great part of your story

327
00:13:40,665 --> 00:13:43,545
too, because like, you know, you,
you change, you, you realize, you

328
00:13:43,545 --> 00:13:45,194
try something out in university.

329
00:13:45,495 --> 00:13:49,245
You, you, you literally go across Ocean,
Ocean to go try something in university

330
00:13:49,245 --> 00:13:50,655
and you realize, well, hold on a second.

331
00:13:51,165 --> 00:13:52,125
I don't like this.

332
00:13:52,334 --> 00:13:55,155
You know, I'm not, I'm not, this is, this
is not what I really wanted to learn.

333
00:13:55,545 --> 00:13:55,844
Absolutely.

334
00:13:55,875 --> 00:13:57,135
And, And then you switch.

335
00:13:57,464 --> 00:14:02,025
That's a big decision to do as a
young man, like going into a, a new

336
00:14:02,025 --> 00:14:05,625
country, new university and you're
like, what the hell am I going to do?

337
00:14:05,625 --> 00:14:07,785
And then you find out, hey,
I've always loved science.

338
00:14:07,785 --> 00:14:08,324
Like let's do it.

339
00:14:08,385 --> 00:14:11,265
And you, and you graduated
and, uh, was this the program?

340
00:14:11,265 --> 00:14:13,665
You go, you went, you went into this,
uh, you got a bachelor of science,

341
00:14:13,665 --> 00:14:17,564
but um, you went into environmental
science and international development.

342
00:14:17,594 --> 00:14:21,795
That's a, a different, that's not
your traditional like science.

343
00:14:21,915 --> 00:14:23,535
You know what you would think
when people say, oh, you'd

344
00:14:23,535 --> 00:14:24,824
graduated with a science degree.

345
00:14:25,035 --> 00:14:28,275
International development's a big
part of, of science, but not a

346
00:14:28,275 --> 00:14:29,535
lot of people put that together.

347
00:14:29,714 --> 00:14:32,625
What did you transfer into
that program right away?

348
00:14:32,625 --> 00:14:33,645
Like that's what was interesting.

349
00:14:33,645 --> 00:14:34,035
And then, and why?

350
00:14:35,175 --> 00:14:35,505
Yeah.

351
00:14:35,805 --> 00:14:37,349
So I, I think I was okay.

352
00:14:37,370 --> 00:14:39,105
Do you know what I did more credits.

353
00:14:39,105 --> 00:14:42,255
I think you only have to do 20
credits to actually get a degree.

354
00:14:42,285 --> 00:14:42,344
Yeah.

355
00:14:42,344 --> 00:14:44,295
I did like 23 or 24 credits.

356
00:14:44,300 --> 00:14:44,469
Gotcha.

357
00:14:44,474 --> 00:14:49,064
I just loved studying so much when
I was at UFD that I kept, I kept

358
00:14:49,064 --> 00:14:52,485
taking like six courses every semester
just 'cause I was That's modules.

359
00:14:53,115 --> 00:14:53,355
Yeah.

360
00:14:53,355 --> 00:14:54,135
Not easy to do.

361
00:14:54,194 --> 00:14:55,635
Six is not easy to do.

362
00:14:55,635 --> 00:14:56,324
It's a lot of work.

363
00:14:56,895 --> 00:14:57,464
Exactly.

364
00:14:57,464 --> 00:15:01,245
But also like, just, um, the idea that
they have, like in the summer you can

365
00:15:01,245 --> 00:15:05,385
take stuff and like, you know, and
there was no limit, uh, per se, as long

366
00:15:05,385 --> 00:15:09,645
as you're keeping on top of things and
electives is something that I really

367
00:15:09,645 --> 00:15:13,395
loved about, uh, north America, that we
don't have any uk uh, we didn't have,

368
00:15:13,454 --> 00:15:15,525
you know, some of my friends there
couldn't take all these electives.

369
00:15:15,525 --> 00:15:17,055
I just like taking random stuff.

370
00:15:17,055 --> 00:15:18,464
Anthropology, linguistics.

371
00:15:18,464 --> 00:15:18,555
Mm-hmm.

372
00:15:18,855 --> 00:15:20,775
Stuff that really shaped,
shaped me, I think actually.

373
00:15:20,775 --> 00:15:21,344
Absolutely.

374
00:15:21,625 --> 00:15:25,405
How I looked at things, but
Um, so I actually took like

375
00:15:25,464 --> 00:15:28,615
enough courses for three majors,
but I could only declare two.

376
00:15:28,615 --> 00:15:33,415
So I declared international development
and environmental science, but I

377
00:15:33,415 --> 00:15:36,204
did also do a whole major in French
just 'cause I was like kind of

378
00:15:36,204 --> 00:15:37,765
obsessed with French and Awesome.

379
00:15:37,885 --> 00:15:40,495
Uh, that, that didn't, and you're
in Canada, you might as well, right?

380
00:15:40,555 --> 00:15:41,665
Exactly, exactly.

381
00:15:41,665 --> 00:15:45,025
So that, that was a really, really,
really nice, uh, part of the experience.

382
00:15:45,324 --> 00:15:47,785
Um, So environment
international development is.

383
00:15:49,155 --> 00:15:52,785
It was, when I looked at prospectus,
I just thought, this is really, I, I

384
00:15:52,785 --> 00:15:55,574
always wanted to work for the UN and
like, kind of do international type

385
00:15:55,574 --> 00:15:57,344
stuff because I traveled a lot as a kid.

386
00:15:57,344 --> 00:15:59,535
You know, I was an expat in most places.

387
00:15:59,745 --> 00:16:02,324
I was born in Saudi Arabia
to Egyptian parents.

388
00:16:02,324 --> 00:16:04,484
So like we had an expat
community there already.

389
00:16:04,724 --> 00:16:07,005
And I just imagined that's,
that would be my future.

390
00:16:07,005 --> 00:16:09,839
And you know, like international
development spoke to me, I think.

391
00:16:10,260 --> 00:16:10,680
Gotcha.

392
00:16:10,780 --> 00:16:14,145
But when I kind of started taking
the courses, I realized it's gonna

393
00:16:14,145 --> 00:16:18,165
be hard to find a job or like easily,
you know, there's a lot of, um,

394
00:16:18,614 --> 00:16:21,040
also it's like the kind of thing
where you're learning about like.

395
00:16:21,630 --> 00:16:25,440
Poverty in places and you're learning
about problems, but it's not always

396
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,150
solutions and it's a lot of sort of Right.

397
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:27,690
It could be heavy.

398
00:16:27,690 --> 00:16:28,170
We've try.

399
00:16:28,230 --> 00:16:29,370
Exactly, exactly.

400
00:16:29,370 --> 00:16:29,550
Be heavy.

401
00:16:29,550 --> 00:16:32,340
Whereas environmental, I loved
environmental science because you

402
00:16:32,340 --> 00:16:36,030
know, if the soil is like, has issues,
you remediated it, you move on.

403
00:16:36,030 --> 00:16:36,090
Yeah.

404
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,850
Like that's, there are solutions
that are concrete and I could

405
00:16:38,850 --> 00:16:41,070
get my head round those and I
felt like I could make an impact.

406
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,230
And of course climate
change was all the rage.

407
00:16:43,230 --> 00:16:44,580
It still is, but like still is.

408
00:16:44,580 --> 00:16:44,670
Yeah.

409
00:16:44,670 --> 00:16:44,970
You know?

410
00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:45,480
Yeah.

411
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,390
And I felt like that's something huge
that we really need to do something about.

412
00:16:48,390 --> 00:16:52,920
And so anything within the
environmental domain was, um,

413
00:16:53,580 --> 00:16:54,750
uh, really interesting to me.

414
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:56,280
That's awesome.

415
00:16:56,310 --> 00:17:00,990
So, you know, you do this, this, uh,
bachelor's, you start off with a master's.

416
00:17:00,990 --> 00:17:01,710
Is that what happened?

417
00:17:02,834 --> 00:17:08,685
Yeah, so I, uh, went, I got scholarship
to do something called Erasmus Mond,

418
00:17:09,105 --> 00:17:14,774
which is for non-Europeans to come to
Europe, uh, to do a two year degree.

419
00:17:14,774 --> 00:17:18,915
And it's always like a, something
joined between multiple countries.

420
00:17:18,915 --> 00:17:24,405
So mine was France, which, which obviously
leveraged my French, uh, English, uh, so

421
00:17:24,494 --> 00:17:27,375
uk, France, uh, Germany, and Portugal.

422
00:17:27,375 --> 00:17:31,335
That was the four countries that were part
of the consortium where I did my masters.

423
00:17:31,605 --> 00:17:36,225
But I, for my dissertation or thesis,
I did my project through McGill, uh,

424
00:17:36,254 --> 00:17:40,605
because I had a contact there in a
Stewart Biology department, and, And

425
00:17:40,605 --> 00:17:44,685
then she had the field research station
in Uganda was just, I was always like,

426
00:17:44,685 --> 00:17:48,915
um, I've always, I'm always someone who
had like lots of interests in different

427
00:17:48,915 --> 00:17:50,385
things and different places and stuff.

428
00:17:50,385 --> 00:17:50,745
Yeah.

429
00:17:50,745 --> 00:17:50,754
Yeah.

430
00:17:51,105 --> 00:17:52,155
Well, I mean, it, it makes sense.

431
00:17:52,155 --> 00:17:52,790
You move around a lot.

432
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,910
And then you're like, okay, you
know, where am I gonna go to next?

433
00:17:56,910 --> 00:17:59,730
It almost feels like that's, you know,
that's, that's what it feels like in

434
00:17:59,730 --> 00:18:02,460
terms of research, which is great for
someone who wants to be interested.

435
00:18:02,955 --> 00:18:06,390
I, I think that it, you know,
for me, I never traveled a lot.

436
00:18:06,420 --> 00:18:09,930
I always stayed in Canada, you know,
when I did, when I did my masters,

437
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,220
I, I, I traveled a little bit.

438
00:18:11,220 --> 00:18:14,100
Like I lived in the States a little
bit, but I never really traveled to

439
00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:19,170
Europe or Africa or, or Australia or
anything like that to do science work.

440
00:18:19,290 --> 00:18:23,280
Um, which, you know, and that's like,
it's, it's tough 'cause like your

441
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,430
comfort level may not be there, but if
you're used to traveling, you're this

442
00:18:26,490 --> 00:18:29,520
used to living in different places,
then you're a little bit more open.

443
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,070
And, and what I like about that is
the freedom to be like, all right,

444
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,820
I have this question for science
that I want to be able to solve.

445
00:18:35,820 --> 00:18:37,560
Where is the best place to do it?

446
00:18:37,875 --> 00:18:42,555
You know, so it, it, your field station
might be, like you said, in Uganda or your

447
00:18:42,555 --> 00:18:47,655
field station might be back in, in Canada
somewhere or, or in the UK or in Egypt.

448
00:18:47,685 --> 00:18:48,705
It just depends Right, totally.

449
00:18:48,975 --> 00:18:51,765
To have that open mind of like,
I've lived in a bunch of different

450
00:18:51,765 --> 00:18:53,955
places, I know what to expect there.

451
00:18:54,285 --> 00:18:57,255
I can go in and have my own, you
know, sort of cut my own teeth on this

452
00:18:57,255 --> 00:19:00,915
science, but also enjoy the adventure
of going into a different place.

453
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:01,845
Is, is great.

454
00:19:02,175 --> 00:19:07,065
Uh, now going to Uganda is a very
interesting country because it's had,

455
00:19:07,185 --> 00:19:11,685
uh, you know, it's, it's social problems
itself in terms of, I mean, I remember

456
00:19:11,685 --> 00:19:15,885
in their late nineties, early 2000 had,
there was a civil war that broke out.

457
00:19:16,305 --> 00:19:19,785
How did, when you went there,
was there, was there violence

458
00:19:19,785 --> 00:19:21,585
in certain parts of, of Uganda?

459
00:19:22,830 --> 00:19:26,040
So, you know, it's funny because as
an Egyptian or someone originally

460
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,920
from Egypt, you kind of grew up
thinking that you're African and

461
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:30,090
you're like, oh yeah, I'm African.

462
00:19:30,090 --> 00:19:33,360
But then when you go to real
Africa, you realize that even

463
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:34,740
they don't consider you African.

464
00:19:34,740 --> 00:19:38,100
Like everyone was treated you the
same as like any other, like none.

465
00:19:38,190 --> 00:19:38,520
Right?

466
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:40,500
None like Ugandan person.

467
00:19:40,530 --> 00:19:42,510
And, um, that was eye-opening.

468
00:19:42,510 --> 00:19:45,510
'cause obviously I just mentioned that
it was like on the receiving end of

469
00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:47,340
racism in previous parts of my life.

470
00:19:47,340 --> 00:19:50,040
So suddenly it's like, hey, like
can you guys make up your mind

471
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,420
like, am I this or am I that?

472
00:19:51,420 --> 00:19:51,690
You know?

473
00:19:51,690 --> 00:19:53,340
But, um, but no.

474
00:19:53,340 --> 00:19:56,370
So Uganda, no, actually it felt
extremely safe where I was.

475
00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:01,500
Um, I was in a small village by one
of the satellite lakes, uh, near,

476
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:06,180
um, it's called Lake Nabo Gabo, uh,
it's just outside Lake Victoria.

477
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:06,715
Uh, okay.

478
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,310
So it, it was nothing at all.

479
00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:14,730
Like, um, what, what I had maybe imagined,
uh, well, it was really uninformed.

480
00:20:14,730 --> 00:20:15,750
All of my, uh.

481
00:20:15,825 --> 00:20:18,915
Just like images I had in my
head were uninformed, but Yeah.

482
00:20:18,915 --> 00:20:19,005
Right.

483
00:20:19,005 --> 00:20:20,445
The research station was very quiet.

484
00:20:20,445 --> 00:20:22,275
It was so tranquil by the lake.

485
00:20:22,545 --> 00:20:23,925
People were so nice.

486
00:20:24,285 --> 00:20:28,815
Uh, I just had a really good experience
there and that's why I kind of wanted to

487
00:20:28,875 --> 00:20:30,705
do more stuff in Africa in the future.

488
00:20:31,995 --> 00:20:32,625
Oh, okay.

489
00:20:32,625 --> 00:20:33,435
Okay, cool.

490
00:20:33,705 --> 00:20:35,310
Uh, I was just looking it up
as you were mentioning that.

491
00:20:35,310 --> 00:20:37,935
I was just looking, making sure that I,
'cause I know, I think I may have, I was

492
00:20:37,935 --> 00:20:42,045
thinking of Sudan when I was thinking
of, of wars that happened, And so I think

493
00:20:42,045 --> 00:20:45,915
they were involved in some kind of way,
but I don't know exactly how they were.

494
00:20:45,915 --> 00:20:48,195
So I don't want to misstep
and say the wrong country.

495
00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:52,670
I thought, I thought you were refer, I
thought you were referring to like, ID

496
00:20:52,845 --> 00:20:54,945
mean remember the last King of Scotland.

497
00:20:55,215 --> 00:20:55,785
Yes.

498
00:20:55,785 --> 00:20:55,855
You know?

499
00:20:55,905 --> 00:20:56,445
Yes.

500
00:20:56,595 --> 00:20:58,695
I think I was, I don't know
a lot about the histories.

501
00:20:58,695 --> 00:21:02,265
I know like, uh, there
was a war in 86 to 94.

502
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,540
But I didn't know, like I I said the
late nineties, so, um, I think there

503
00:21:06,540 --> 00:21:09,629
was, but I think that had to do with
the, the Sudanese, uh, civil War.

504
00:21:09,629 --> 00:21:10,315
So Yeah.

505
00:21:10,679 --> 00:21:10,740
Yeah.

506
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,649
But yeah, but it, regardless, I
mean, you know, you never know.

507
00:21:13,710 --> 00:21:15,990
You never know what you're gonna
expect in, in these countries.

508
00:21:16,020 --> 00:21:18,720
How did you enjoy staying
there for your field season?

509
00:21:19,020 --> 00:21:20,040
Like what was that like?

510
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,480
So, I was an eyeopener for sure.

511
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,370
I'd never done tropical field work.

512
00:21:26,460 --> 00:21:27,240
Uh, yeah.

513
00:21:27,810 --> 00:21:32,610
Uh, and I, I suppose one thing I liked
about it, you know, because in Canada

514
00:21:32,610 --> 00:21:35,399
and, and like Europe and stuff where
I've done other stuff, like everything's

515
00:21:35,399 --> 00:21:38,075
so structured, you know, like health
and safety, this like, kind of mm-hmm.

516
00:21:38,190 --> 00:21:40,980
You have a protocol, but like
there, like you're kind of reacting

517
00:21:40,980 --> 00:21:43,290
to things on the ground that
you haven't prepared for at all.

518
00:21:43,290 --> 00:21:45,960
And also no one really cares
that much about certain things.

519
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:46,620
They're like, you know what?

520
00:21:46,620 --> 00:21:47,010
You want this?

521
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:47,490
Yeah.

522
00:21:47,490 --> 00:21:49,050
You want a sample,
we'll get you this face.

523
00:21:49,050 --> 00:21:49,110
Yeah.

524
00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:51,450
Like, whereas like I would've
had to, you know, go through,

525
00:21:51,510 --> 00:21:52,620
jump through all these hoops.

526
00:21:52,620 --> 00:21:52,860
Yeah.

527
00:21:52,950 --> 00:21:56,010
I think, I think it's also a lot
more real in that sense, you know?

528
00:21:56,010 --> 00:21:56,020
Mm-hmm.

529
00:21:56,175 --> 00:22:01,475
Um, uh, I know course it taught
me a lot about, um, how, you know.

530
00:22:02,475 --> 00:22:06,975
Well, we, I learned about all this
fishery stuff, uh, but really seeing

531
00:22:07,125 --> 00:22:12,105
how the communities depend on that as a
livelihood was, uh, really eyeopening.

532
00:22:12,105 --> 00:22:12,375
Yeah.

533
00:22:12,435 --> 00:22:15,165
And I can imagine how, just
how big a problem it is.

534
00:22:15,165 --> 00:22:16,875
You know, what they call
a tragedy of the commons.

535
00:22:17,025 --> 00:22:20,055
Like if it's not regulated, like
everyone's just going to, I could

536
00:22:20,055 --> 00:22:24,105
see it in happening in, in real
life that uh, if someone doesn't

537
00:22:24,105 --> 00:22:25,395
cash it, someone else will cash it.

538
00:22:25,395 --> 00:22:29,295
And, you know, everyone is sort
of trying to provide for their

539
00:22:29,295 --> 00:22:31,815
families, um, in a subsistence way.

540
00:22:31,875 --> 00:22:32,475
Uh, yeah.

541
00:22:32,475 --> 00:22:32,535
So.

542
00:22:33,285 --> 00:22:34,485
It was a bit depressing.

543
00:22:34,485 --> 00:22:35,205
That part I would say.

544
00:22:35,205 --> 00:22:35,265
Yeah.

545
00:22:35,265 --> 00:22:37,995
Especially like the Nile
Perch, you know how it was

546
00:22:37,995 --> 00:22:39,975
introduced to the Lake Victoria?

547
00:22:39,980 --> 00:22:40,250
Mm-hmm.

548
00:22:40,330 --> 00:22:41,295
I could see the effects.

549
00:22:41,295 --> 00:22:45,290
The, like, just the decimation of
endemic populations in the Yeah.

550
00:22:45,290 --> 00:22:46,245
In the lake there.

551
00:22:46,275 --> 00:22:49,125
It's, it's one thing to hear
about it, like through literature

552
00:22:49,125 --> 00:22:50,205
and through other people.

553
00:22:50,205 --> 00:22:53,805
It's another thing to see when you see
like an invasive species or an introduced

554
00:22:53,805 --> 00:22:58,245
species come in and, and wreak havoc
into a, a lake that, where you've heard

555
00:22:58,245 --> 00:23:01,845
so many things, like great things about,
it's, it's, uh, you know, we see it in the

556
00:23:01,845 --> 00:23:06,315
Great Lakes here, uh, with the Asian carp
coming in and you're just like, exactly.

557
00:23:06,525 --> 00:23:08,505
You know, they just destroy
everything if they're in here.

558
00:23:08,835 --> 00:23:10,605
Um, And so you worry about that.

559
00:23:10,605 --> 00:23:12,765
But there's some, there's one thing
in seeing it and there's one thing

560
00:23:12,765 --> 00:23:14,055
in just in hearing about it too.

561
00:23:14,055 --> 00:23:15,555
They're very, very different things.

562
00:23:15,710 --> 00:23:15,930
Um.

563
00:23:16,574 --> 00:23:20,205
Actually under, since we mentioned
Burlington and the Great Lakes Lab,

564
00:23:20,534 --> 00:23:24,344
that is the one that is a project
that I was helping them with in 2012.

565
00:23:24,945 --> 00:23:29,475
Halfway through my master's, I did an
internship with someone called Sue Doka.

566
00:23:29,475 --> 00:23:31,274
I don't know if you know
anyone from the group there.

567
00:23:31,334 --> 00:23:32,354
She used to be my boss.

568
00:23:33,135 --> 00:23:33,524
Really?

569
00:23:33,524 --> 00:23:33,764
No.

570
00:23:33,764 --> 00:23:37,455
We must have missed each other by
like, we were in the same building.

571
00:23:37,814 --> 00:23:38,084
Oh, no way.

572
00:23:38,534 --> 00:23:46,169
I was, uh, in 20 12, 20 13, I
was working for Nick Manta Ray.

573
00:23:46,815 --> 00:23:47,115
Yeah.

574
00:23:47,115 --> 00:23:47,685
Oh, no way.

575
00:23:47,955 --> 00:23:51,495
He was at ut he, he joined UTSC just
as I was leaving Scarborough, right?

576
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:52,635
Yes, yes.

577
00:23:52,725 --> 00:23:52,995
Yeah.

578
00:23:53,055 --> 00:23:53,745
Okay.

579
00:23:53,745 --> 00:23:54,555
That's hilarious.

580
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:54,680
Yeah.

581
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:55,400
H so hilarious.

582
00:23:55,405 --> 00:23:56,595
About 2012.

583
00:23:56,595 --> 00:23:56,745
Yeah.

584
00:23:56,745 --> 00:23:57,165
Yeah.

585
00:23:57,165 --> 00:23:57,175
Yeah.

586
00:23:57,175 --> 00:23:57,825
That's so funny.

587
00:23:57,825 --> 00:23:58,095
Yeah.

588
00:23:58,110 --> 00:23:58,400
Yeah.

589
00:23:58,455 --> 00:23:58,905
Small world.

590
00:23:58,935 --> 00:23:59,025
Yeah.

591
00:23:59,030 --> 00:24:02,295
So her and I, her and I, I helped her
with a few reports, her and her like group

592
00:24:02,295 --> 00:24:06,360
at the time, like Erin and other people,
but they had this project, uh, with Nick

593
00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:07,725
la I don't know if you know who that is.

594
00:24:07,755 --> 00:24:07,965
Yeah.

595
00:24:08,265 --> 00:24:09,075
Yeah, I know Nick.

596
00:24:09,075 --> 00:24:09,375
Yeah.

597
00:24:09,465 --> 00:24:12,195
And, and Aaron was like my office bait.

598
00:24:13,060 --> 00:24:15,000
Oh Yeah.

599
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:16,440
I didn't realize you were there.

600
00:24:16,850 --> 00:24:17,200
Yeah.

601
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:17,600
Yeah, Yeah.

602
00:24:17,605 --> 00:24:17,655
Yeah.

603
00:24:17,835 --> 00:24:20,025
I live like, like a stones throw away.

604
00:24:20,025 --> 00:24:22,005
Like I could I drive
there like five minutes?

605
00:24:22,065 --> 00:24:22,335
Yeah.

606
00:24:22,335 --> 00:24:22,755
Yeah.

607
00:24:22,755 --> 00:24:22,765
Yeah.

608
00:24:22,765 --> 00:24:23,415
That's so funny.

609
00:24:23,420 --> 00:24:23,680
Amazing.

610
00:24:24,075 --> 00:24:24,315
Yeah.

611
00:24:24,340 --> 00:24:28,935
So I, I did a, a few months with
them looking at like, uh, the carp.

612
00:24:29,205 --> 00:24:30,285
They had like a RA radio.

613
00:24:30,315 --> 00:24:31,125
Radio telemetry.

614
00:24:31,125 --> 00:24:31,515
No radio.

615
00:24:31,575 --> 00:24:34,155
No, it's acoustic telemetry
project in Harbor.

616
00:24:34,155 --> 00:24:34,245
Right.

617
00:24:34,395 --> 00:24:38,505
And we're looking how to
keep carp out of the, um.

618
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:40,890
Main part of the lake, I guess.

619
00:24:40,890 --> 00:24:40,980
Yep.

620
00:24:40,980 --> 00:24:43,080
Using these gate, they had
these gates that they could

621
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:44,490
like open and close, I think.

622
00:24:44,495 --> 00:24:44,805
Mm-hmm.

623
00:24:45,180 --> 00:24:45,360
Mm-hmm.

624
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:46,525
Oh God, it's taking it back.

625
00:24:46,525 --> 00:24:46,645
Yeah.

626
00:24:46,875 --> 00:24:47,165
Yeah.

627
00:24:48,305 --> 00:24:49,590
But it was carpet.

628
00:24:49,590 --> 00:24:50,310
That was a problem.

629
00:24:50,370 --> 00:24:50,845
And it still is.

630
00:24:50,925 --> 00:24:51,285
I right.

631
00:24:51,290 --> 00:24:51,900
Still is.

632
00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:54,870
I mean, it's still, there's still,
um, you know, I think they found a

633
00:24:54,870 --> 00:24:59,040
few, but nothing, uh, like a major
population or anything like that.

634
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,240
I don't, I haven't kept up in the last few
years, but I know they still do monitoring

635
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,540
every year and there's boats out every
year to make sure they, they catch 'em

636
00:25:06,540 --> 00:25:08,520
and, and grab 'em if they see them.

637
00:25:08,670 --> 00:25:10,620
But I, they haven't seen
too, too many things.

638
00:25:10,620 --> 00:25:14,370
They've, they've, they've sampled
with like EDNA and stuff and have

639
00:25:14,370 --> 00:25:17,880
found, you know, some samples of,
of some that are, that are there.

640
00:25:17,910 --> 00:25:20,610
The good, not the good ones, so, okay.

641
00:25:20,615 --> 00:25:22,650
'cause there's like
Asian carp that are okay.

642
00:25:22,650 --> 00:25:25,590
There's, And then there's invasive
Asian carp And so there's two,

643
00:25:25,620 --> 00:25:27,450
there's a bunch of different
species as you know, in there.

644
00:25:27,450 --> 00:25:29,670
And so, um, they, they
continue to monitor them.

645
00:25:30,225 --> 00:25:34,815
But even common carp is like Rick
has re wreaked haik and Oh Yeah.

646
00:25:34,815 --> 00:25:36,044
'cause they're so destructive, right?

647
00:25:36,044 --> 00:25:37,335
When they eat, they eat everything.

648
00:25:37,695 --> 00:25:42,345
And so they're so destructive that they
can, they can really take away habitat

649
00:25:42,345 --> 00:25:43,815
pretty quickly if they go through.

650
00:25:44,205 --> 00:25:47,024
Um, Asian carb just seemed to be
a little bit more efficient at it.

651
00:25:47,085 --> 00:25:51,705
And so, um, you know, common carp is
still, still bad, but they can, I,

652
00:25:51,705 --> 00:25:55,875
I don't think they're as bad as what
we're expecting Asian carp to be.

653
00:25:55,879 --> 00:25:55,970
Yeah.

654
00:25:55,975 --> 00:26:00,375
And there's so many rivers and streams
that they can reproduce in Um, so it

655
00:26:00,375 --> 00:26:04,215
could be, it could be quite, you know,
quite concerning, you know, in terms

656
00:26:04,215 --> 00:26:06,165
of that, in invasive, uh, species.

657
00:26:06,524 --> 00:26:07,004
But Yeah.

658
00:26:07,004 --> 00:26:07,754
Yeah, of course.

659
00:26:07,995 --> 00:26:09,044
Now you're taking me back.

660
00:26:09,044 --> 00:26:09,225
Now.

661
00:26:11,085 --> 00:26:11,835
I know that word for a while.

662
00:26:11,925 --> 00:26:14,129
Uh, no, but that's awesome.

663
00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:18,405
So, so like, And then you go, you
know, you, you do the work in, in

664
00:26:18,405 --> 00:26:22,034
Uganda, um, and was that at, when
you were at University of Sterling?

665
00:26:22,034 --> 00:26:22,929
No, that was when you were at McGill.

666
00:26:23,610 --> 00:26:27,149
That was, yeah, that project was
through the McGill Research Center.

667
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:27,480
Gotcha.

668
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,610
Called Lauren Chapman from there.

669
00:26:29,610 --> 00:26:30,690
I dunno if you know anyone Yeah.

670
00:26:30,695 --> 00:26:30,995
From there.

671
00:26:30,995 --> 00:26:31,195
Yeah.

672
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,210
Oh, you know, no, I don't know anybody
from there, but I've heard of it.

673
00:26:33,210 --> 00:26:33,540
Yeah.

674
00:26:33,544 --> 00:26:33,675
Yeah.

675
00:26:33,784 --> 00:26:34,075
Okay.

676
00:26:34,139 --> 00:26:36,899
Yeah, so she's an inland
freshwater person too.

677
00:26:36,929 --> 00:26:39,720
And she had someone called
Beth who was working with Okay.

678
00:26:40,290 --> 00:26:41,100
Also Canadian.

679
00:26:41,250 --> 00:26:43,020
She's now a Virginia Tech, I believe.

680
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:43,679
Okay.

681
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,600
And Um, So from there, I, well,
after that I got the FAO work, so

682
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,100
I came back to Canada for a bit.

683
00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:52,980
I was applying for jobs and it was mostly
consulting work that I was getting.

684
00:26:52,980 --> 00:26:53,310
Yes, yes.

685
00:26:53,310 --> 00:26:54,155
A lot of consulting.

686
00:26:54,155 --> 00:26:54,315
Yeah.

687
00:26:54,385 --> 00:26:54,675
Yeah.

688
00:26:55,020 --> 00:26:58,679
I didn't wanna get to consulting, you
know, like, uh, like the big Yeah.

689
00:26:58,679 --> 00:26:58,689
Yeah.

690
00:26:59,580 --> 00:27:01,260
Sort of environmental services And so on.

691
00:27:01,260 --> 00:27:05,220
So when the FAO thing came up, I was like,
yeah, definitely it was a consultancy.

692
00:27:05,220 --> 00:27:06,090
But, um, right.

693
00:27:06,629 --> 00:27:09,090
It took me to headquarters
for a year and a bit.

694
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,919
Uh, I did different roles there,
uh, with fisheries, uh, mostly.

695
00:27:14,070 --> 00:27:18,210
And then I joined the, uh, so do you
know, like RF os, how they work, right?

696
00:27:18,270 --> 00:27:18,780
Yes.

697
00:27:18,780 --> 00:27:18,875
I guess Yeah.

698
00:27:18,875 --> 00:27:19,075
Yeah.

699
00:27:19,169 --> 00:27:21,360
So I'm used to people who actually
don't know anything about my field.

700
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:21,510
Yeah.

701
00:27:21,510 --> 00:27:22,590
So like, I have to like.

702
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,920
Recalibrate be like, no, Andrew
actually knows a lot about this.

703
00:27:26,910 --> 00:27:30,450
Well, why don't, but why don't you just
tell the audience like what it stands for.

704
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,690
'cause 'cause we've talked about it on
the podcast before, but just to make

705
00:27:33,690 --> 00:27:37,140
sure that they completely understand It's
like regional or MF fishing management.

706
00:27:37,830 --> 00:27:37,980
Yeah.

707
00:27:37,980 --> 00:27:38,625
Organization, Yeah.

708
00:27:38,910 --> 00:27:39,090
Yeah.

709
00:27:39,090 --> 00:27:43,080
So the, the whole, all of the Seas,
oceans of the world are divided into

710
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,900
areas by the UN and or by other bodies.

711
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,340
And they're all managed by these
organizations that are responsible

712
00:27:50,340 --> 00:27:53,880
for kind of making, like bringing
countries members, states of

713
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,265
that region together to mm-hmm.

714
00:27:55,590 --> 00:27:57,630
Make decisions about,
mostly about fisheries.

715
00:27:57,630 --> 00:28:02,220
Like how, like safe levels to
catch of different, um, stocks.

716
00:28:02,220 --> 00:28:05,490
And they kind of help mediate
between countries a bit.

717
00:28:05,550 --> 00:28:09,630
Um, yeah, the majority of them have
a lot of issues because countries

718
00:28:09,630 --> 00:28:12,520
just don't agree on so many
things and there's no real stuff.

719
00:28:13,125 --> 00:28:13,784
Yeah, exactly.

720
00:28:13,784 --> 00:28:16,095
Holding them like accountable
is also very hard.

721
00:28:16,095 --> 00:28:19,995
Like you can't force 'em to No,
um, stick to their promises.

722
00:28:20,054 --> 00:28:25,274
Um, So I worked in the RFMO, I actually
worked in two RMOs, one in, in Thailand,

723
00:28:25,274 --> 00:28:27,735
well, the one for Southeast Asia.

724
00:28:27,824 --> 00:28:31,034
Uh, the coordinating body for
the Southeast Asia was called.

725
00:28:31,034 --> 00:28:33,915
That was, uh, actually
that was before my masters.

726
00:28:34,485 --> 00:28:38,085
Uh, but I worked after my master's
in the Mediterranean one called

727
00:28:38,085 --> 00:28:41,865
the General Fisheries Commission
for the Mediterranean, GFCM, uh,

728
00:28:41,865 --> 00:28:44,865
which is by the way, the worst
managed body of water in the world.

729
00:28:44,985 --> 00:28:47,534
Uh, ironically or un
ironically, I don't know.

730
00:28:47,534 --> 00:28:47,985
Yeah.

731
00:28:48,105 --> 00:28:48,554
Yeah.

732
00:28:48,764 --> 00:28:49,165
Terrible, terrible.

733
00:28:49,165 --> 00:28:49,230
Yeah.

734
00:28:49,485 --> 00:28:51,044
So much missed much management.

735
00:28:51,044 --> 00:28:53,955
Actually, Spain and Italy used to
be, I still, I believe they still

736
00:28:53,955 --> 00:28:55,845
are the worst culprits, right.

737
00:28:55,845 --> 00:28:59,865
For like over fishing and just, um,
even Marine pollution and a bunch of

738
00:28:59,865 --> 00:29:02,294
stuff and discarding fishing gear.

739
00:29:02,445 --> 00:29:02,895
Yeah.

740
00:29:02,895 --> 00:29:05,534
Um, they're like kind of, it's a
bit of wild west in some areas.

741
00:29:05,564 --> 00:29:08,534
Well, and it's also, it's like there's
no, I just discovered this recently.

742
00:29:08,534 --> 00:29:10,425
I, I didn't know a lot about
the Mediterranean in terms of

743
00:29:10,425 --> 00:29:12,495
management, but there's no like.

744
00:29:13,350 --> 00:29:13,710
Yeah.

745
00:29:13,710 --> 00:29:16,379
You know how every other country
has like an exclusive economic zone?

746
00:29:16,485 --> 00:29:16,774
Yeah.

747
00:29:16,860 --> 00:29:18,419
There's really no exclusive economic zone.

748
00:29:18,450 --> 00:29:19,710
'cause there's so many
countries that are there.

749
00:29:19,710 --> 00:29:20,399
Exactly.

750
00:29:20,399 --> 00:29:21,149
All of them overlap.

751
00:29:21,389 --> 00:29:24,929
So it's pretty much just like
treated as international waters.

752
00:29:25,290 --> 00:29:28,379
So you can do whatever you want and
there's nobody there to help you.

753
00:29:28,379 --> 00:29:31,830
And hopefully the High Seas Treaty
that just came in recently, as

754
00:29:31,830 --> 00:29:35,310
of this recording, like this past
weekend, hopefully there's gonna be

755
00:29:35,310 --> 00:29:36,840
some management coming from there.

756
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,814
And those countries can
agree, but Absolutely.

757
00:29:38,820 --> 00:29:40,530
It's, it's a, it's a mess in there.

758
00:29:40,919 --> 00:29:41,550
Yeah, absolutely.

759
00:29:41,820 --> 00:29:45,510
So one of the things that I was sort of
marginally involved in, but like that

760
00:29:45,510 --> 00:29:50,429
was the, all, all like the talk of the
town when I was at the FAO was the port

761
00:29:50,429 --> 00:29:54,360
state measures agreement, which was
gonna basically 'cause, you know, IUU

762
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,669
fishing, I, I guess I have to define that.

763
00:29:56,669 --> 00:29:58,919
Illegal unreported, unregulated phishing.

764
00:29:59,250 --> 00:30:04,080
Um, like so much of global fishing
goes undocumented and unregulated.

765
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,320
And that's a problem obviously
for the UN and for just trying

766
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:08,909
to manage fisheries globally.

767
00:30:09,330 --> 00:30:09,750
Um.

768
00:30:10,650 --> 00:30:15,420
They were, they were very excited about
this idea that if all the ports around

769
00:30:15,420 --> 00:30:20,580
the world signed up to the agreement that
they'd have to, you know, make sure that

770
00:30:20,580 --> 00:30:22,230
everything that comes in is documented.

771
00:30:22,230 --> 00:30:25,170
That would be a way, you
know, to combat IUU fishing.

772
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,640
So, 'cause nothing can be landed as long,
if you can't land it, then it can't,

773
00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:32,880
you know, that's kind of solving it at,
not at source, but at like, you know.

774
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:33,000
Yeah.

775
00:30:33,630 --> 00:30:35,355
So a source because Yeah.

776
00:30:35,465 --> 00:30:36,555
Yeah, to come in Yeah.

777
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:37,050
Yeah.

778
00:30:37,410 --> 00:30:41,070
So that was, and I think that
got ratified, but then somehow I

779
00:30:41,070 --> 00:30:42,810
haven't heard about it since really?

780
00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:46,650
Uh, which is an indication that
probably it didn't end up having

781
00:30:46,650 --> 00:30:50,070
impact should have had, or maybe
not enough countries ratified it.

782
00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:54,240
Um, just, I mean the High Sea Treaty was
another one, but, um, that's a different

783
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,040
ministry, uh, a different organization.

784
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:56,940
Is that Uner?

785
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,880
Uh, or is it the, uh, I'm
not sure who age is that.

786
00:31:00,629 --> 00:31:01,080
Okay.

787
00:31:01,290 --> 00:31:03,355
Yeah, I'm not sure it might be, no.

788
00:31:03,570 --> 00:31:04,020
Okay.

789
00:31:04,290 --> 00:31:06,720
Yeah, I, no, just remembered that
poor state measures 'cause it was

790
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,280
like everyone was so excited about it.

791
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,190
But, you know, a lot of the UN stuff
is like that I think on paper And then

792
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,649
in theories it's all very nice, but
like, like SDGs is so nice, beautiful

793
00:31:16,649 --> 00:31:22,170
poetically kind of meaningful, but you
know, we just kind of crap all over that.

794
00:31:22,170 --> 00:31:23,370
Don not we, but like, you know.

795
00:31:23,730 --> 00:31:24,810
Yeah, no, I get it.

796
00:31:24,810 --> 00:31:28,770
Like, look, you're preaching to the choir
here because, you know, I, I've said

797
00:31:28,770 --> 00:31:31,500
this for years where it's like when you
have international agreements like this,

798
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:35,520
it's, it's, uh, they're nice to have
and there are certain countries who will

799
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,910
follow it and they take pride in following
it and they, they, they take pride in

800
00:31:38,910 --> 00:31:40,950
getting it and or being a part of it.

801
00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:41,879
And then if they don't.

802
00:31:42,375 --> 00:31:44,385
You know, they get, they get
embarrassed because of it.

803
00:31:44,385 --> 00:31:46,725
And so some countries work on, I
don't wanna get embarrassed, so

804
00:31:46,725 --> 00:31:48,105
I want to be able to keep this.

805
00:31:48,105 --> 00:31:51,705
And other countries now these days
seem like, well, you know, I don't

806
00:31:51,705 --> 00:31:55,065
want to, I don't even care about
it, you know, or I'll pull out of it

807
00:31:55,125 --> 00:31:57,375
because we don't wanna be when we want.

808
00:31:57,645 --> 00:32:00,135
But others were like, I'll be a
part of this if you let me do this.

809
00:32:00,135 --> 00:32:03,945
It's a little bit of a negotiation tactic,
you know, for cer for certain times.

810
00:32:03,945 --> 00:32:06,705
So they become important, but
there's definitely a game to

811
00:32:06,705 --> 00:32:08,325
be played, uh, with those.

812
00:32:08,325 --> 00:32:13,215
And, and enforcement is never easy,
especially in international waters.

813
00:32:13,514 --> 00:32:15,675
So that could be a difficult,
that could be a difficult thing.

814
00:32:16,815 --> 00:32:17,445
A hundred percent.

815
00:32:17,445 --> 00:32:17,504
Yeah.

816
00:32:17,745 --> 00:32:17,955
Yeah.

817
00:32:18,014 --> 00:32:20,565
Yeah, I think we could
have a whole Oh, a hundred.

818
00:32:20,570 --> 00:32:20,700
Yeah.

819
00:32:20,865 --> 00:32:20,895
Yeah.

820
00:32:21,690 --> 00:32:21,980
Yeah.

821
00:32:22,185 --> 00:32:22,965
Absolutely.

822
00:32:23,325 --> 00:32:24,135
Absolutely.

823
00:32:24,375 --> 00:32:27,555
Uh, but like, like, so what
after FAO, you know, you, you

824
00:32:27,555 --> 00:32:29,685
start, you kind of come across.

825
00:32:30,104 --> 00:32:31,995
Like welfare fish, right?

826
00:32:31,995 --> 00:32:32,114
Yeah.

827
00:32:32,475 --> 00:32:34,574
Um, And so how did that all come about?

828
00:32:34,574 --> 00:32:38,084
How did that cross your, like cross
your, your, your life I guess?

829
00:32:38,084 --> 00:32:41,685
So there was these, a group, uh, at
the University of Sterling in Scotland.

830
00:32:41,685 --> 00:32:46,274
They had a project from the British
Council and the department, what

831
00:32:46,274 --> 00:32:48,794
used to be called the Department for
International Development in the uk.

832
00:32:48,794 --> 00:32:53,985
Now it's been like, uh, combined with, uh,
foreign, foreign and commonwealth office.

833
00:32:53,985 --> 00:32:56,685
So it's called the Foreign
Commonwealth Development Office now.

834
00:32:56,715 --> 00:32:57,014
Okay.

835
00:32:57,254 --> 00:33:00,165
But used to be separate department
or ministry, as you might call it.

836
00:33:00,225 --> 00:33:07,155
And um, they had funding for two years
to try out this project in Egypt.

837
00:33:07,485 --> 00:33:10,364
Um, it was an Institute of
aquaculture at Sterling.

838
00:33:10,364 --> 00:33:10,725
Yeah.

839
00:33:10,725 --> 00:33:14,475
And, um, they hadn't done anything
in Egypt before, but the idea

840
00:33:14,475 --> 00:33:15,629
was very, very like kind of.

841
00:33:16,274 --> 00:33:18,314
You know, kind of
experimental, but exciting.

842
00:33:18,314 --> 00:33:22,514
So there's something called behavioral
fever, which is like the, the

843
00:33:22,514 --> 00:33:24,524
phenomenon that fish that are sick.

844
00:33:24,585 --> 00:33:27,915
Of course fish are exothermic, so they,
they can't control the temperatures,

845
00:33:27,975 --> 00:33:32,385
but just like reptiles and amphibians
And so on, they've been known to seek

846
00:33:32,385 --> 00:33:34,695
out warmer waters when they're unwell.

847
00:33:34,754 --> 00:33:39,794
So it's like a, a thermo regulation
or kind of a fever, um, right.

848
00:33:39,794 --> 00:33:40,155
Behavior.

849
00:33:40,159 --> 00:33:40,389
Yeah.

850
00:33:40,389 --> 00:33:41,080
So they kind of Yeah.

851
00:33:41,534 --> 00:33:41,774
Yeah.

852
00:33:41,774 --> 00:33:42,615
Be more comfortable.

853
00:33:42,794 --> 00:33:43,665
Exactly.

854
00:33:43,665 --> 00:33:48,524
And actually if in experimental setups,
if you give fish that, um, thermal

855
00:33:48,524 --> 00:33:52,725
gradient to choose from, and, uh, they're
sick and you, well, you infect them.

856
00:33:53,025 --> 00:33:56,475
They do recover faster in the
presence of the thermal gradient.

857
00:33:56,595 --> 00:33:59,595
And so we know that that is a
concept that works in, at least

858
00:33:59,595 --> 00:34:01,095
in theory and in experiments.

859
00:34:01,095 --> 00:34:06,825
But we were thinking can we apply that to
a Latino sort of low intensity aquaculture

860
00:34:06,825 --> 00:34:11,565
system as a way to help fish recover, you
know, without using medicines And so on.

861
00:34:11,775 --> 00:34:15,195
Obviously it was very ambitious,
so we tried to recreate these

862
00:34:15,195 --> 00:34:17,325
thermal gradients in ponds in Egypt.

863
00:34:17,415 --> 00:34:17,505
Mm-hmm.

864
00:34:17,865 --> 00:34:20,715
That was a project that I was
part of, so it was called, um.

865
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,449
Uh, well, it was called Bolty
Egypt, the official name.

866
00:34:24,690 --> 00:34:24,839
Okay.

867
00:34:24,839 --> 00:34:28,290
Very long name, but like, kind of
behavioral prophylaxis as a way of

868
00:34:28,290 --> 00:34:31,319
like improving health and welfare,
sustainability, blah, blah, blah.

869
00:34:31,529 --> 00:34:34,799
But the part that I was focused on, my
supervisor said to me, why don't you

870
00:34:34,799 --> 00:34:38,670
go assess the welfare of fish in this,
in these ponds and like, come up with

871
00:34:38,670 --> 00:34:41,909
recommendations and like a protocol
for how to assess welfare better.

872
00:34:41,909 --> 00:34:43,889
And I was like, welfare, animal welfare.

873
00:34:44,129 --> 00:34:45,270
I didn't know anything about it.

874
00:34:45,270 --> 00:34:45,600
So.

875
00:34:45,659 --> 00:34:45,899
Right.

876
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,879
I started reading about
it and I was like, ah.

877
00:34:47,940 --> 00:34:49,949
'cause you know, it used to be
something like very veterinary.

878
00:34:50,580 --> 00:34:50,670
Mm-hmm.

879
00:34:50,730 --> 00:34:55,409
From the veterinary world or from, uh,
you know, uh, terrestrial livestock.

880
00:34:55,440 --> 00:35:00,540
Uh, uh, and like you said
before, pets, um, wild animals.

881
00:35:00,540 --> 00:35:03,629
It was like, like I just, I knew the term,
but I didn't really know what it meant.

882
00:35:03,690 --> 00:35:09,480
But, you know, I, I realized it was
whole fields of research showing like

883
00:35:09,540 --> 00:35:13,350
the five domains and the five pillars
and all the famous for assessing it.

884
00:35:13,350 --> 00:35:16,020
And how do you know if
animals are doing well?

885
00:35:16,109 --> 00:35:19,740
And I realized that fish welfare
was like growing in, in, in, in, um.

886
00:35:20,549 --> 00:35:24,090
People are more and more interested
in it, and I could see more funders

887
00:35:24,090 --> 00:35:25,799
also being interested in this area.

888
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,200
So I was like, huh, maybe it's
actually a good opportunity.

889
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,270
So, uh, yeah, through through the
research, I, you know, started thinking

890
00:35:33,270 --> 00:35:35,819
about tilapia, which are very neglected.

891
00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:40,560
Uh, well that's a word that is now bandied
about, like the, there was no protocol

892
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,480
for how to assess the welfare of tilapia.

893
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,460
No one really knew what
the behavioral needs were.

894
00:35:44,819 --> 00:35:47,790
We're still slowly starting to know
more and more, but they are one of the

895
00:35:47,790 --> 00:35:51,210
species that are farmed in the greatest
numbers in the world and consumed as

896
00:35:51,210 --> 00:35:59,115
well, Um, So through that actually, And
then after that, I. I was encouraged

897
00:35:59,115 --> 00:36:03,105
by a funder to basically start my own
organization in Egypt because they were

898
00:36:03,105 --> 00:36:06,525
like, Hey, actually this is right after
COVID where there was a lot of funding.

899
00:36:06,705 --> 00:36:08,295
The stock markets were doing amazing.

900
00:36:08,295 --> 00:36:11,475
A lot of these foundations had like, they
were flush with cash, and someone was

901
00:36:11,475 --> 00:36:15,735
like, Hey, how do you feel about like, you
know, trying to start up your own thing?

902
00:36:15,825 --> 00:36:19,635
And I, it wasn't my dream of
mine, but I could see a gap and

903
00:36:19,635 --> 00:36:21,165
I thought, well, I'll try it.

904
00:36:21,165 --> 00:36:21,710
And mm-hmm.

905
00:36:22,005 --> 00:36:26,025
I guess we tried to, we'll start with
a small project, a scoping study, and

906
00:36:26,025 --> 00:36:27,735
from there on it just kind of grew.

907
00:36:28,215 --> 00:36:32,265
Um, I can talk a bit more about that, but
I was just sort of giving it high level.

908
00:36:32,265 --> 00:36:35,895
Well, yeah, I mean, it, it's, it's
interesting because obviously, you

909
00:36:35,895 --> 00:36:39,585
know, you look at the, what you
mentioned as the, the basic project,

910
00:36:39,585 --> 00:36:43,845
looking at how, you know, fish will
take care of themselves throughout,

911
00:36:44,205 --> 00:36:47,505
you know, a water column or whether,
whether they're in an aquaculture

912
00:36:47,505 --> 00:36:49,365
facility or whether they're in the wild.

913
00:36:49,845 --> 00:36:51,525
They have to, they have to survive.

914
00:36:51,705 --> 00:36:52,035
Right.

915
00:36:52,035 --> 00:36:53,745
And a lot of times when we look at fish.

916
00:36:54,165 --> 00:36:55,095
We just see fish.

917
00:36:55,095 --> 00:36:58,605
We see them either as seafood or we see
them as like a cool looking fish, but

918
00:36:58,605 --> 00:37:02,475
we don't often, uh, see their character.

919
00:37:02,475 --> 00:37:05,115
Like even in an aquarium, you
can look at a fish, but you'll

920
00:37:05,115 --> 00:37:06,345
see probably a school of fish.

921
00:37:06,345 --> 00:37:09,794
You may not see one unless they're
really big, like a grouper or something.

922
00:37:09,794 --> 00:37:13,154
You won't really see their personality
or their characteristics, even though

923
00:37:13,484 --> 00:37:17,055
each fish has their own personality
or characteristics, whether it's

924
00:37:17,115 --> 00:37:20,294
the how they, how they demonstrate
it in a school of fish, how they

925
00:37:20,294 --> 00:37:21,825
demonstrate it as an individual.

926
00:37:22,065 --> 00:37:24,944
They all have their own unique kind
of characteristics, just as, as

927
00:37:24,944 --> 00:37:26,774
I discovered as any animal does.

928
00:37:26,805 --> 00:37:27,134
Right?

929
00:37:27,435 --> 00:37:30,345
Uh, you look at a zoo, they all have
their own, their own characteristics

930
00:37:30,345 --> 00:37:33,615
and they have their kind of funny quirks
and, and things like that as they're

931
00:37:33,615 --> 00:37:34,725
influenced throughout their life.

932
00:37:34,725 --> 00:37:37,815
Like for instance, I was doing
the podcast for the Toronto Zoo

933
00:37:37,815 --> 00:37:39,609
here at, at, uh, during COVID.

934
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,799
And one of the things that I learned
is that their, their head gorilla, like

935
00:37:43,799 --> 00:37:48,450
their troop leader, gorilla Charles, who
was like a, a 25-year-old silverback,

936
00:37:48,660 --> 00:37:52,380
or even older, sorry, older, he was
maybe in his like forties or fifties,

937
00:37:52,589 --> 00:37:56,400
silverback, like big gorilla, you know,
like can pretty much rip somebody's

938
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,440
arms off if the, if he really wanted to.

939
00:37:58,950 --> 00:38:03,359
And he was afraid of frogs, like
fully afraid of frogs, you know, like

940
00:38:03,359 --> 00:38:07,080
wouldn't let the troop go near a frog
because like, he was afraid of it.

941
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,049
And so, like, you know, they all have
this characteristics, but when we look

942
00:38:10,049 --> 00:38:13,049
at fish, like we could look at a whale
and we can see the characteristics.

943
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,299
Like we look at an orca and we're
like, oh wow, these are really intense.

944
00:38:15,509 --> 00:38:19,049
We look at fish, we don't see that,
you know, we, we don't like, and

945
00:38:19,049 --> 00:38:21,240
this is anybody, not just scientists,
but we look at them and they're just

946
00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:23,370
like, you know, they kinda look not
dead in the eyes, but they don't

947
00:38:23,370 --> 00:38:24,569
look like they're looking at you.

948
00:38:24,569 --> 00:38:26,730
They don't look like they're
really engaging with you.

949
00:38:27,315 --> 00:38:29,295
And, and especially like a
fish like tilapia, which we

950
00:38:29,295 --> 00:38:30,674
normally just see as seafood.

951
00:38:30,674 --> 00:38:33,404
Like you see, like they have
to take care of themselves.

952
00:38:33,404 --> 00:38:35,955
They have to survive
from a very basic level.

953
00:38:36,315 --> 00:38:40,335
And so their welfare is, as a
survivor is gonna be important.

954
00:38:40,545 --> 00:38:43,035
If they're sick or hurt, they're
gonna want to go to a place

955
00:38:43,035 --> 00:38:43,935
where they feel comfortable.

956
00:38:43,935 --> 00:38:46,065
Like we go to, we go to
bed if we have a flu.

957
00:38:46,395 --> 00:38:49,455
If they're sick, they need to go
get warm, like you mentioned, so

958
00:38:49,455 --> 00:38:50,535
that they can get better again.

959
00:38:50,535 --> 00:38:54,825
Now, whether the warm allows
them to heal or whether the warm

960
00:38:54,825 --> 00:38:58,424
allows their body not to worry
about one more factor as the cold.

961
00:38:58,455 --> 00:38:58,755
Yeah.

962
00:38:58,755 --> 00:39:01,785
And then they can actually allow it
to heal, like allow the rest of the

963
00:39:01,785 --> 00:39:03,795
body to, to do what it needs to do.

964
00:39:03,944 --> 00:39:07,215
Is, is another thing, which I'm
sure is, is probably published on

965
00:39:07,215 --> 00:39:11,444
and And so forth, but going into
welfare is a really interesting idea.

966
00:39:11,444 --> 00:39:14,835
As you mentioned, you were like, I'm not
a vet, you know, why would I go, you know,

967
00:39:14,835 --> 00:39:18,105
first, when you first think about why
would you go, as you started to do this

968
00:39:18,105 --> 00:39:23,865
project more and more, did you, like, did
your mind open up a little bit more to.

969
00:39:24,300 --> 00:39:29,550
Uh, to like the world of welfare of
fish and like, and where was it going?

970
00:39:29,550 --> 00:39:34,170
Like what questions were you developing
as you started to continue to do your,

971
00:39:34,170 --> 00:39:38,025
your PhD and even after, when you looking
at welfare of fish or just in general?

972
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:40,140
Yeah.

973
00:39:40,230 --> 00:39:42,900
I just wanted to mention though,
about this behavioral fever thing.

974
00:39:42,900 --> 00:39:45,960
Unfortunately, the project was
actually like a huge failure.

975
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,400
No, just because like, oh, no.

976
00:39:47,610 --> 00:39:47,910
Yeah.

977
00:39:47,970 --> 00:39:51,630
'cause we tried to like design these
greenhouses, like above parts of the pond.

978
00:39:51,660 --> 00:39:51,720
Yeah.

979
00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:54,690
And we thought, well definitely
like, you know, like a tarpon

980
00:39:54,690 --> 00:39:55,860
in kind of like a cover, right?

981
00:39:55,860 --> 00:39:57,120
It or polyethylene?

982
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:57,930
Sly, sorry.

983
00:39:58,230 --> 00:40:00,390
Like it was gonna
definitely warm up the pond.

984
00:40:00,390 --> 00:40:01,440
Like that's how of course, you know.

985
00:40:01,650 --> 00:40:04,590
But then actually for some reason
the data loggers that we use.

986
00:40:04,935 --> 00:40:06,945
Like consistently showed cooler.

987
00:40:07,005 --> 00:40:10,875
Maybe it was just like where the water
level was in comparison to the height

988
00:40:10,875 --> 00:40:13,995
of like, there was a whole kind of
physics and dynamics, like thermodynamic

989
00:40:14,205 --> 00:40:15,615
stuff that we did not study before.

990
00:40:15,615 --> 00:40:18,915
We kind of assumed we, we did pilot
it, but for some reason we were

991
00:40:18,915 --> 00:40:22,305
just running behind schedule and we
kind of just, you know, these things

992
00:40:22,305 --> 00:40:23,955
always go like as research things.

993
00:40:23,955 --> 00:40:24,645
It happens Yeah.

994
00:40:24,790 --> 00:40:25,080
Yeah.

995
00:40:25,085 --> 00:40:28,095
So until now I don't actually
know what that would look like

996
00:40:28,095 --> 00:40:29,775
in a true agriculture setting.

997
00:40:29,775 --> 00:40:29,960
Of course.

998
00:40:29,965 --> 00:40:31,245
Just to be, to be fair.

999
00:40:31,575 --> 00:40:33,075
And you said something else about welfare.

1000
00:40:33,075 --> 00:40:33,645
I was gonna say.

1001
00:40:33,645 --> 00:40:33,825
Yeah.

1002
00:40:33,825 --> 00:40:38,055
So, uh, a big part of my work
now these days is on slaughter.

1003
00:40:38,055 --> 00:40:42,105
How to slaughter fish better, how to
reduce the suffering of fish at slaughter

1004
00:40:42,555 --> 00:40:44,475
in, in the context of aquaculture.

1005
00:40:44,535 --> 00:40:48,675
Um, you know, where large numbers are
being caught or harvested as they say.

1006
00:40:49,545 --> 00:40:54,105
And, um, you know, it still shocks me
because obviously I know because I've read

1007
00:40:54,105 --> 00:40:58,455
literature that the fish are suffering,
uh, well take, get taken out of water.

1008
00:40:58,455 --> 00:41:01,635
And I think most farmers are, people
who work with fish know, but the fact

1009
00:41:01,635 --> 00:41:03,315
that the fish don't make any sound.

1010
00:41:03,870 --> 00:41:07,740
Makes it hard, like if you're slaughtering
what I've seen a cow be slaughtered,

1011
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,750
uh, in like Islamic ritual style.

1012
00:41:10,020 --> 00:41:10,260
Mm-hmm.

1013
00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:11,400
Like this is horrible.

1014
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,580
Like anyone can see iss horrible, like
the cow is trying everything to escape.

1015
00:41:14,940 --> 00:41:15,210
Right.

1016
00:41:15,210 --> 00:41:19,500
Um, and most other land animals,
but fish just kind of flap about.

1017
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:19,800
I know.

1018
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,070
Still like if you're informed
it's not nice to see, but Right.

1019
00:41:23,340 --> 00:41:27,240
Um, the, the lack of sound sort
of just doesn't resonate with

1020
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:28,485
us as humans where we mm-hmm.

1021
00:41:28,565 --> 00:41:32,940
We think sound, sound must mean suffer
or sound suffering has to be Yeah.

1022
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:34,440
Vocalized, right?

1023
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:34,530
Yes.

1024
00:41:34,530 --> 00:41:36,660
So that's just something I
thought of as we were saying that.

1025
00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:40,920
Um, but then I kind of, you, you
actually asked me other questions, so

1026
00:41:40,925 --> 00:41:42,245
maybe we can go back to those Yeah.

1027
00:41:42,250 --> 00:41:42,810
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

1028
00:41:42,810 --> 00:41:47,490
Well, I guess like, as you start, just
as you make these observations, um, when

1029
00:41:47,490 --> 00:41:51,780
you're, you know, you, you, you finish off
your PhD, you start to get more into this,

1030
00:41:51,780 --> 00:41:55,080
this sort of welfare field of, of fish.

1031
00:41:56,085 --> 00:41:58,425
Like, what was the,
what was the next step?

1032
00:41:58,425 --> 00:42:04,995
Like what, what kind of questions arose
after your PhD on the welfare and, and

1033
00:42:04,995 --> 00:42:09,375
I guess did that, was, is, are those
the questions that led you towards.

1034
00:42:09,975 --> 00:42:12,105
You know, ethical seafood research.

1035
00:42:12,134 --> 00:42:12,404
Yeah.

1036
00:42:12,495 --> 00:42:16,845
So, uh, I work with A NGO
called Aquatic Life Institute.

1037
00:42:16,845 --> 00:42:17,805
I'm not sure if you've heard of that.

1038
00:42:17,805 --> 00:42:18,225
I've heard of that.

1039
00:42:18,765 --> 00:42:18,975
Yeah.

1040
00:42:19,035 --> 00:42:19,305
Yeah.

1041
00:42:19,305 --> 00:42:23,625
So they are US based, but actually
their md their managing director is,

1042
00:42:23,835 --> 00:42:29,475
uh, Canadian from, she lives in bc. Uh,
she, I think she also went to UFT and

1043
00:42:29,475 --> 00:42:31,035
did an environmental science background.

1044
00:42:31,275 --> 00:42:31,840
Probably Yeah.

1045
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:31,850
Yeah.

1046
00:42:33,015 --> 00:42:37,335
Uh, and Um, So I worked with them for a
couple of years, and that was my first

1047
00:42:37,335 --> 00:42:39,015
time in an NGO I'd worked in the un.

1048
00:42:39,015 --> 00:42:40,545
I worked in a government in Canada.

1049
00:42:40,545 --> 00:42:41,924
I worked in a government in uk.

1050
00:42:41,924 --> 00:42:46,275
I worked at like, um, research
settings, but never in NGO.

1051
00:42:46,335 --> 00:42:48,134
Um, maybe just like small contracts.

1052
00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:50,475
I, I even worked for the
European Parliament at some

1053
00:42:50,475 --> 00:42:51,435
point, but not like, oh, wow.

1054
00:42:51,645 --> 00:42:53,985
Yeah, that was a really fun, uh, role.

1055
00:42:54,255 --> 00:42:59,250
Um, but I. You know, I guess I just
learned about how NGOs work, and

1056
00:42:59,609 --> 00:43:04,259
especially these like smaller NGOs or,
or charities where it was like, you

1057
00:43:04,259 --> 00:43:08,220
know, they all had fancy titles and a
fancy website and like fancy, like even,

1058
00:43:08,430 --> 00:43:10,200
you know, fancy branding and stuff.

1059
00:43:10,259 --> 00:43:12,420
But then like, when I actually started
working for them, I was like, oh, you

1060
00:43:12,420 --> 00:43:16,109
guys are just a bunch of people, like
normal people, like, like, like me.

1061
00:43:16,109 --> 00:43:20,819
You know, like, and I realized just how
accessible it was to do something similar.

1062
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:22,470
And that was always in
the back of my mind.

1063
00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:24,930
I'm like, well, I could do something
like this and I think it'd be fulfilling

1064
00:43:25,319 --> 00:43:27,779
'cause I was passionate and driven.

1065
00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:33,480
Uh, but there's nothing as like
fulfilling as you, you, you are

1066
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,359
working for yourself and like trying,
you're having mission, you're mission

1067
00:43:36,359 --> 00:43:37,740
driven, I guess is the word, right?

1068
00:43:37,740 --> 00:43:37,799
Yeah.

1069
00:43:37,830 --> 00:43:40,890
Like the, so that's was
back in the back of my mind.

1070
00:43:40,890 --> 00:43:44,009
I was like, I think I could, I think
this is my calling ready to do.

1071
00:43:44,595 --> 00:43:49,725
To pursue my own passion, uh, in
a, in a format of an organization.

1072
00:43:49,905 --> 00:43:55,185
But I also started realizing just yeah,
like how neglected the field was, how much

1073
00:43:55,185 --> 00:43:59,625
suffering happens, and, uh, that there
were technological solutions available.

1074
00:43:59,715 --> 00:44:00,795
We could do something about it.

1075
00:44:00,795 --> 00:44:02,775
So like what they say track,
they call it trackability.

1076
00:44:02,775 --> 00:44:05,745
So I think we can actually
address that issue.

1077
00:44:06,135 --> 00:44:11,715
Uh, so the scale was large, the
collectedness was big, and, uh, there

1078
00:44:11,715 --> 00:44:12,885
was something we could do about it.

1079
00:44:12,885 --> 00:44:14,025
And then that appealed to me.

1080
00:44:14,385 --> 00:44:17,775
So I don't know if you're aware, I
guess I'm referring to a framework

1081
00:44:18,375 --> 00:44:21,525
that belongs to the effective altruism
movement, and that's the people who

1082
00:44:21,525 --> 00:44:23,595
fund most of our work and Oh, okay.

1083
00:44:24,315 --> 00:44:28,695
Most of the work of organizations like
ourselves, such as Aquatic Life Institute.

1084
00:44:28,695 --> 00:44:32,085
So the, the, that's a movement
that came out of Oxford

1085
00:44:32,085 --> 00:44:34,155
University's philosophy driven.

1086
00:44:34,890 --> 00:44:38,250
How do you do the most good
in the most efficient way?

1087
00:44:38,549 --> 00:44:43,259
And um, they managed to convince a
lot of tech bros to part ways with a

1088
00:44:43,259 --> 00:44:48,359
lot of money, uh, because they kind
of like this idea, uh, this framework.

1089
00:44:48,359 --> 00:44:52,470
And, and, and because of that, well
our farm animal welfare is one of

1090
00:44:52,470 --> 00:44:53,790
the areas that they care about.

1091
00:44:54,029 --> 00:44:56,399
Normally it's just very
neglected, like underfunded.

1092
00:44:56,399 --> 00:44:59,399
But because right, they do the, they
do the math and look at how many, like

1093
00:44:59,399 --> 00:45:04,859
shrimp, for example, shrimp welfare
is now receiving millions if not more.

1094
00:45:04,919 --> 00:45:07,200
It's crazy 'cause you never
would've thought of shrimp and

1095
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:08,939
welfare goes in the same sentence.

1096
00:45:09,149 --> 00:45:10,080
Right, exactly.

1097
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,710
So that's kind of just serendipitous at
the time that I was doing that research.

1098
00:45:14,069 --> 00:45:17,279
Yeah, it was, people
wanted defund that work.

1099
00:45:17,279 --> 00:45:20,339
So yeah, it was opportunistic,
but also I think it just made

1100
00:45:20,339 --> 00:45:22,169
sense on many levels to me.

1101
00:45:22,169 --> 00:45:22,685
To answer your question.

1102
00:45:23,715 --> 00:45:26,295
I was trying to be brief, but then
like, since I started talking about

1103
00:45:26,295 --> 00:45:28,695
collectedness, I'm like, well, I
might as well mention the movement

1104
00:45:28,695 --> 00:45:30,015
and like the framework and stuff.

1105
00:45:30,045 --> 00:45:30,285
Yeah.

1106
00:45:30,405 --> 00:45:31,785
Hey, this is a podcast.

1107
00:45:31,785 --> 00:45:33,615
Nothing is a brief on, on this podcast.

1108
00:45:33,705 --> 00:45:37,245
I am guilty of that myself because
I talk a lot once, one of the

1109
00:45:37,245 --> 00:45:38,865
reasons why I started this podcast.

1110
00:45:38,865 --> 00:45:41,385
So no need and worried about
being descriptive 'cause

1111
00:45:41,385 --> 00:45:42,195
that's what we're here for.

1112
00:45:42,195 --> 00:45:43,815
We want to, we wanna learn about that.

1113
00:45:44,145 --> 00:45:47,565
Uh, so, so tell me how ESR came
about, like ethical seafood,

1114
00:45:47,625 --> 00:45:48,615
uh, research came about.

1115
00:45:48,795 --> 00:45:49,095
Yeah.

1116
00:45:49,095 --> 00:45:53,835
So my supervisor, uh, was always
used using this word, responsible

1117
00:45:54,015 --> 00:45:55,635
aquaculture or like, Yeah.

1118
00:45:55,725 --> 00:45:56,865
Uh, ethical.

1119
00:45:57,225 --> 00:46:01,575
Like he obviously he wasn't a big,
uh, fan of sustainable because he just

1120
00:46:01,575 --> 00:46:03,285
lost meaning over the years, right?

1121
00:46:03,285 --> 00:46:08,595
So the word ethical comes from him very
much him saying like, you know, yeah,

1122
00:46:08,595 --> 00:46:10,035
we can do things sustainably, but.

1123
00:46:10,470 --> 00:46:12,420
Is it ethical to farm in this way?

1124
00:46:12,420 --> 00:46:15,840
Or, you know, when you think about the
ethical dimension, I was like, huh.

1125
00:46:15,900 --> 00:46:16,560
Interesting.

1126
00:46:16,830 --> 00:46:20,130
Um, not, I don't mean it in the
same way as like, you know, uh,

1127
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:21,690
pita, like, or Peta, like the Yeah.

1128
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:21,870
Yeah.

1129
00:46:21,870 --> 00:46:22,230
Yeah.

1130
00:46:22,685 --> 00:46:25,770
I, I just mean it in like a more,
it's not like an activism kind

1131
00:46:25,770 --> 00:46:27,210
of thing where you're protesting.

1132
00:46:27,210 --> 00:46:27,900
Right, right.

1133
00:46:27,900 --> 00:46:28,470
Exactly.

1134
00:46:28,620 --> 00:46:31,620
Like, we just ask people, even
farmers, like your average farmer,

1135
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,049
like, do you think it's right
to treat animals in this way?

1136
00:46:34,049 --> 00:46:35,790
Not in an aggressive,
sort of accusative way.

1137
00:46:35,790 --> 00:46:35,880
Right.

1138
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,700
But once you actually talk to them
about, like, the suffering, they're like,

1139
00:46:38,700 --> 00:46:39,750
yeah, you're, you know, you're right.

1140
00:46:39,750 --> 00:46:42,779
I don't need to kind of
throw them around if I can.

1141
00:46:43,230 --> 00:46:45,720
Well, and or they tell you, well,
I wish I could do it differently,

1142
00:46:45,720 --> 00:46:48,480
but, you know, this is like, we're
faced with these constraints.

1143
00:46:48,810 --> 00:46:49,470
We don't ever go in there.

1144
00:46:49,470 --> 00:46:53,100
Well, I think too, like what seems like
one thing that gets, that gets me too

1145
00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:59,370
is a lot of times when, uh, you speak to
farmers or like, say a union of farmers

1146
00:46:59,370 --> 00:47:03,540
or even fishers and things like that,
a lot of the time there has been, I

1147
00:47:03,540 --> 00:47:05,580
wouldn't say like scientific research.

1148
00:47:05,955 --> 00:47:09,405
But there's been sort of like
generational research, like among

1149
00:47:09,405 --> 00:47:15,645
farmers and fishers that look at
what's the best way to, you know, kill

1150
00:47:15,645 --> 00:47:17,745
the, the, the animal for the food.

1151
00:47:18,045 --> 00:47:18,315
Right?

1152
00:47:18,315 --> 00:47:20,745
And a lot of them don't
want the animals to suffer.

1153
00:47:20,955 --> 00:47:25,005
You know, they have, uh, if not a
spiritual, but more of an ethical

1154
00:47:25,065 --> 00:47:27,825
approach to it where they're doing
what they can, even though they're

1155
00:47:27,825 --> 00:47:31,395
killing an animal, they're doing what
they can to, to make it the fast thing.

1156
00:47:31,635 --> 00:47:36,315
Now, I am not in this, this genre or
this field, so I don't know if that holds

1157
00:47:36,315 --> 00:47:40,875
true for everywhere, but there's a lot
of people who do, who do care about that.

1158
00:47:41,205 --> 00:47:43,785
Um, and I think it's, it's interesting
'cause I'm, I'm sure a lot of the

1159
00:47:43,785 --> 00:47:47,865
conversations have come with like, we
tried this way, you know, decades ago And

1160
00:47:47,865 --> 00:47:51,465
then we, now we try it this way 'cause
it seems to be better and maybe they

1161
00:47:51,465 --> 00:47:54,195
don't know the scientific part of it.

1162
00:47:54,765 --> 00:47:55,065
Right?

1163
00:47:55,065 --> 00:47:55,575
Absolutely.

1164
00:47:55,605 --> 00:47:57,045
So that's where, that's where you come.

1165
00:47:57,045 --> 00:47:58,670
I agree completely
under like your average.

1166
00:47:59,310 --> 00:48:03,150
Farmer, your average fisherman or
fisher folk or fisher person, whatever

1167
00:48:03,390 --> 00:48:05,580
wants to do right and do better.

1168
00:48:05,580 --> 00:48:10,110
And um, you know, when you don't
shame them into it is you can have

1169
00:48:10,110 --> 00:48:13,920
a very nice conversation about how
things can be done differently and

1170
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,940
in a way that also doesn't hurt them
Um, So I agree completely on that.

1171
00:48:18,270 --> 00:48:22,020
I was just going to say about,
uh, yeah, so then the word for.

1172
00:48:22,314 --> 00:48:24,265
The word seafood obviously
is self-explanatory.

1173
00:48:24,265 --> 00:48:28,345
And research is, I just thought of
like, I set it up as a consultancy,

1174
00:48:28,375 --> 00:48:30,805
you know, carrying out research
to answer those questions because

1175
00:48:30,805 --> 00:48:32,365
I saw it as a niche or a gap.

1176
00:48:32,395 --> 00:48:35,544
Um, yeah, ba based on
my skillset at the time.

1177
00:48:35,995 --> 00:48:39,774
Uh, I didn't imagine to go down
that, down the non-profit route, but

1178
00:48:39,774 --> 00:48:42,564
the problem was that there wasn't
that many people who wanted to like

1179
00:48:42,625 --> 00:48:45,174
hire a consultant to work on that.

1180
00:48:45,205 --> 00:48:47,875
You know, there was so few
contracts coming our way or

1181
00:48:47,875 --> 00:48:49,015
like it was a bit limiting.

1182
00:48:49,015 --> 00:48:52,975
So I thought, well maybe if we
move towards donations, can we get

1183
00:48:52,975 --> 00:48:56,634
people to sympathize with fish in
a way, or like fish and farmers?

1184
00:48:56,665 --> 00:49:00,234
'cause using what they call the one
welfare approach, like, yeah, we're

1185
00:49:00,234 --> 00:49:03,895
helping farmers, we're helping fish,
we're helping the environment all in one.

1186
00:49:04,225 --> 00:49:09,055
Like it's a win win win, a triple
win Um, so can we get people to

1187
00:49:09,234 --> 00:49:10,560
support that cause and it's something.

1188
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:10,799
Mm-hmm.

1189
00:49:10,879 --> 00:49:13,855
I have to say that I'm still and
haven't gotten answered to yet

1190
00:49:13,855 --> 00:49:15,685
because we've only really pivoted to.

1191
00:49:16,755 --> 00:49:22,065
Being a full-blown, um, charitable
entity, uh, less than a year ago.

1192
00:49:22,065 --> 00:49:23,445
And for now it's working out.

1193
00:49:23,445 --> 00:49:26,775
But, you know, just have to, I had
to shift gears 'cause I'd never, I,

1194
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,385
I, you know, I didn't know anything
about running a charity really.

1195
00:49:29,445 --> 00:49:34,005
Um, but, but the consulting idea came from
when I was in the European Parliament.

1196
00:49:34,005 --> 00:49:38,205
So I was with the fisheries committee
there and I was with a team that

1197
00:49:38,205 --> 00:49:40,905
commissions, they have a budget
that they have to spend every year

1198
00:49:40,905 --> 00:49:44,625
to commission, like, studies to
be carried out by consultants.

1199
00:49:44,775 --> 00:49:48,855
And I was reviewing these, uh, contracts
or like the reports that would come

1200
00:49:48,855 --> 00:49:53,385
in and I would, you know, sort of
review it and, um, summarize it for the

1201
00:49:53,865 --> 00:49:59,565
parliamentary committee to like, um, not
vote on, but kind of, uh, give feedback

1202
00:49:59,565 --> 00:50:01,365
and if they want changes to be made.

1203
00:50:01,540 --> 00:50:05,475
And I, and I started seeing that, like
I could be on the other side preparing

1204
00:50:05,475 --> 00:50:08,175
those reports, and I thought that's
what would be more interesting for me.

1205
00:50:09,450 --> 00:50:15,359
Uh, and I con I started contacting people
who, um, the consultants that I was seeing

1206
00:50:15,359 --> 00:50:18,390
their names and like, Hey, you know,
my contract here is running out soon.

1207
00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:21,990
You know, I'm really keen to do, to get
into the kind of work that you're doing.

1208
00:50:22,319 --> 00:50:24,029
What would be an entry path into that?

1209
00:50:24,029 --> 00:50:26,879
And yeah, one of them told me
like, you have to set up your own

1210
00:50:26,879 --> 00:50:31,200
entity because much easier to apply
for grants or contracts register.

1211
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:31,740
So that's, Yeah.

1212
00:50:31,740 --> 00:50:34,680
Not as registered, like independent
consultant, but you have like

1213
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:36,665
this nonprofit Absolutely.

1214
00:50:36,714 --> 00:50:37,064
Yeah.

1215
00:50:37,214 --> 00:50:38,250
Yeah, absolutely.

1216
00:50:38,250 --> 00:50:41,819
So that's where the, the, the idea
of registering came And then the name

1217
00:50:41,819 --> 00:50:45,839
came from like kind of being inspired
and also thinking it was a niche, but

1218
00:50:45,839 --> 00:50:49,709
then actually transitioning to not
applying for those kind of contracts.

1219
00:50:49,709 --> 00:50:54,569
But actually going after like donations
is something that came only a year ago.

1220
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,490
'cause we set up in 2021 originally.

1221
00:50:56,895 --> 00:50:57,855
Right, right.

1222
00:50:58,125 --> 00:51:02,865
So now, uh, you know, now that you've been
running for, what, five years now, say,

1223
00:51:02,955 --> 00:51:08,865
um, as we, as we just moved into 2026, uh,
you, you seem to have done, like you have

1224
00:51:08,865 --> 00:51:14,475
a lot of, you have had a lot of projects,
um, you know, and, and from all over the,

1225
00:51:14,685 --> 00:51:19,935
seems like all over the world, uh, which
is, which is great, Um, So can you talk

1226
00:51:19,935 --> 00:51:24,795
a little bit about some of the projects
that you have worked on, even just from

1227
00:51:24,795 --> 00:51:30,435
a, an overview standpoint, just so people
can get a perspective of what, you know,

1228
00:51:30,435 --> 00:51:34,754
what kind of animal welfare are you
looking at and, and, and what other people

1229
00:51:34,754 --> 00:51:36,765
are looking at to get your services.

1230
00:51:37,515 --> 00:51:37,935
Cool.

1231
00:51:37,965 --> 00:51:38,715
Yeah, of course.

1232
00:51:38,715 --> 00:51:43,125
So I always say when I give presentations
in conferences, I always say like, you

1233
00:51:43,125 --> 00:51:46,995
know, we are, you know, a nonprofit
advocates for improving fish.

1234
00:51:46,995 --> 00:51:49,125
Well, uh, animal aquatic, animal
welfare, blah, blah, blah.

1235
00:51:49,215 --> 00:51:52,935
And then I always say like,
three through three key pillars.

1236
00:51:52,935 --> 00:51:57,285
Obviously research is in our name, but
we also do like training and education.

1237
00:51:57,315 --> 00:51:59,625
That's always like the
backbone of anything we do.

1238
00:51:59,625 --> 00:52:01,905
We're trying to improve practices.

1239
00:52:01,905 --> 00:52:05,385
So there's always a lot of,
you know, training workshops

1240
00:52:05,655 --> 00:52:06,885
being held in the background.

1241
00:52:06,945 --> 00:52:11,475
And then, um, more and more now
we're doing policy work, but, or

1242
00:52:11,475 --> 00:52:15,435
like, sort of governmental, um, like
high level work with the government.

1243
00:52:15,435 --> 00:52:18,825
So, um, uh.

1244
00:52:19,650 --> 00:52:20,549
We helped.

1245
00:52:20,819 --> 00:52:25,080
One example is we're a bit opportunistic,
I should say this, uh, just to be clear.

1246
00:52:25,230 --> 00:52:27,779
So, you know, if there's an
opportunity there, we'll seize it.

1247
00:52:27,779 --> 00:52:30,569
And we were invited by the
government in Zanzibar.

1248
00:52:30,630 --> 00:52:31,740
I was living there at the time.

1249
00:52:31,740 --> 00:52:35,069
So Zanzibar is a semi-autonomous island.

1250
00:52:35,130 --> 00:52:38,490
Uh, a group of islands Archipelago
off the coast of Tanzania.

1251
00:52:39,270 --> 00:52:47,310
And uh, I was there in 2023 in January
to March on uh, some kind of residency.

1252
00:52:47,910 --> 00:52:51,270
And I formed a relationship with
the government there, the Ministry

1253
00:52:51,270 --> 00:52:54,509
of the Ministry of Blue Economy
and Fisheries, they call it.

1254
00:52:54,990 --> 00:52:55,950
And they invited me.

1255
00:52:56,009 --> 00:52:58,380
They were like, Hey, we need
a new aquaculture strategy.

1256
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:00,390
Do you think this something
you can help me with?

1257
00:53:00,420 --> 00:53:02,160
And I'm like, help us with.

1258
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,130
And obviously it wasn't something
that I'd done, but I was like,

1259
00:53:05,130 --> 00:53:07,170
right, well, well, I'm sure I can.

1260
00:53:07,350 --> 00:53:09,120
So I went away, applied for funding.

1261
00:53:09,359 --> 00:53:12,120
I, you know, talked to some consultant
friends of mine, uh, you know,

1262
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:16,065
together with a. The best way of
doing it, and sure, sure, sure enough,

1263
00:53:16,065 --> 00:53:19,755
we went away and, uh, delivered it
in, in, in collaboration with them.

1264
00:53:20,025 --> 00:53:25,035
And that now that's been adopted as
official strategy for the islands for the

1265
00:53:25,035 --> 00:53:28,695
next, well, it was 2025, adopted, so 2038.

1266
00:53:28,695 --> 00:53:32,895
So this is 13 year strategy,
and that will determine the

1267
00:53:32,895 --> 00:53:34,155
direction that the islands go.

1268
00:53:34,155 --> 00:53:37,905
Now this is because they're really
keen to exploit the blue economy.

1269
00:53:38,265 --> 00:53:43,485
All of Africa and many developing, uh,
regions, you know, are, are keen like,

1270
00:53:43,485 --> 00:53:45,345
you know, blue economy, blue economy.

1271
00:53:45,345 --> 00:53:47,715
The World Bank pushes
hard on like blue economy.

1272
00:53:48,255 --> 00:53:53,535
Um, but uh, actually when we
were carrying out the stakeholder

1273
00:53:53,535 --> 00:53:57,105
consultation and developing the
strategy, we realized that Zanzibar is

1274
00:53:57,105 --> 00:53:59,385
very well suited to seaweed farming.

1275
00:53:59,415 --> 00:54:02,535
They already do a lot of
seaweed and moving it to fish.

1276
00:54:02,535 --> 00:54:05,565
Farming doesn't make sense because
all the species that they would farm

1277
00:54:05,775 --> 00:54:09,765
would be for export, not for food
security or for sub sub subsistence.

1278
00:54:09,765 --> 00:54:11,145
So actually.

1279
00:54:11,805 --> 00:54:17,265
If it wasn't through fisheries, it
was gonna be, um, like they could

1280
00:54:17,265 --> 00:54:21,495
already meet their needs for protein
through wild caught fisheries.

1281
00:54:21,495 --> 00:54:25,845
So it didn't make sense for them
to be doing too much, uh, fin fish

1282
00:54:25,845 --> 00:54:28,935
farming of, you know, low cost species.

1283
00:54:28,935 --> 00:54:30,825
So seaweed makes more sense.

1284
00:54:30,825 --> 00:54:32,355
It's a lower entry point.

1285
00:54:32,355 --> 00:54:33,315
They're already doing it.

1286
00:54:33,315 --> 00:54:37,335
Their environment is well suited and it's
much better for the environment as we know

1287
00:54:37,335 --> 00:54:40,305
it employs women and, um, younger people.

1288
00:54:40,305 --> 00:54:44,715
And, um, it can be beneficial,
uh, on a number of levels.

1289
00:54:45,045 --> 00:54:49,635
So that, And then that kind of opened
up a whole new work stream for us on

1290
00:54:49,695 --> 00:54:51,345
seaweed, which I never anticipated.

1291
00:54:51,345 --> 00:54:55,155
Like, when should a government invest
more in seaweed and when should

1292
00:54:55,155 --> 00:54:57,075
invest more in finfish farming?

1293
00:54:57,075 --> 00:55:00,765
And that's one of my main projects for
this year to look to work with economists

1294
00:55:00,765 --> 00:55:05,355
to answer those questions, um, using a
whole bunch of different models And so on.

1295
00:55:05,715 --> 00:55:08,235
Uh, because I think
often governments push.

1296
00:55:08,595 --> 00:55:10,425
Because that's just like
the fashionable thing to do.

1297
00:55:10,425 --> 00:55:11,565
Like yeah, let's hunt fish Yes.

1298
00:55:12,075 --> 00:55:14,715
But without actually studying
whether environmentally it's

1299
00:55:14,715 --> 00:55:16,485
the best use of their resources.

1300
00:55:16,665 --> 00:55:16,755
Mm-hmm.

1301
00:55:17,145 --> 00:55:18,825
Uh, are they, do they have
the right infrastructure?

1302
00:55:18,825 --> 00:55:23,115
And if they do seaweed well, it can be
profitable and it could be successful.

1303
00:55:23,205 --> 00:55:23,505
Yeah.

1304
00:55:23,985 --> 00:55:26,355
Uh, well and good for, and
better for the environment too,

1305
00:55:26,355 --> 00:55:27,555
depending on what you have.

1306
00:55:27,555 --> 00:55:31,395
'cause like, you know, I have heard
of, of, of studies looking at.

1307
00:55:31,695 --> 00:55:36,195
Seaweed being, uh, cultured over
seagrasses and that affecting the

1308
00:55:36,195 --> 00:55:39,945
seagrass beds, uh, even though it does
well for the seaweed, but the seagrass

1309
00:55:39,945 --> 00:55:42,615
beds aren't getting the light that
they need and they end up suffering.

1310
00:55:42,915 --> 00:55:46,365
Um, but also when you have, uh,
aquaculture fish, aquaculture,

1311
00:55:46,545 --> 00:55:48,975
you know, sometimes it's not as
profitable for the whole time.

1312
00:55:48,975 --> 00:55:51,975
And, uh, there's like, grease is going
through some problems right now with

1313
00:55:51,975 --> 00:55:54,045
abandoned, uh, fish farms And so forth.

1314
00:55:54,045 --> 00:55:54,915
So there's always problems.

1315
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:55,400
I didn't know that.

1316
00:55:55,405 --> 00:56:00,315
There's always, yeah, there's always,
uh, issues when when you look at, um,

1317
00:56:00,345 --> 00:56:03,975
how things are managed within a country,
how, how the regulations are set up,

1318
00:56:03,975 --> 00:56:07,275
and you don't want to just exploit
something for the sake of exploiting

1319
00:56:07,275 --> 00:56:09,075
when it may not be best for, for that.

1320
00:56:09,075 --> 00:56:12,525
And it's good to have, you know, uh,
people like yourself and, and, and

1321
00:56:12,525 --> 00:56:16,155
the people that work with you at, at
ethical seafood, uh, research because,

1322
00:56:16,935 --> 00:56:19,395
you know, it's, it's, you wanna
make sure you're doing it properly.

1323
00:56:19,395 --> 00:56:21,615
You know, obviously the, the,
the money has to be there.

1324
00:56:21,615 --> 00:56:24,134
The revenue has to be there, has
to support jobs, but it also has

1325
00:56:24,134 --> 00:56:27,285
to treat the con, the, the, the
country and the, and their coastal

1326
00:56:27,285 --> 00:56:29,295
areas or their lakes like properly.

1327
00:56:29,295 --> 00:56:29,595
Right.

1328
00:56:29,595 --> 00:56:30,585
And I think that's, uh.

1329
00:56:31,110 --> 00:56:34,560
That's what's best about having, you know,
someone like yourself and, and uh, e Sr

1330
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:36,900
there to be like, oh, this is what we do.

1331
00:56:36,900 --> 00:56:40,680
Like, this is what we're looking out for
you as well, you know, as, as, uh, as

1332
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:42,510
your people and, and the environment.

1333
00:56:42,510 --> 00:56:44,995
And so, yeah, that's definitely
what we're trying to do.

1334
00:56:45,095 --> 00:56:48,630
So, Andrew, I realized that I went off a,
on a bit of a tangent on seaweed 'cause

1335
00:56:48,630 --> 00:56:49,555
I'm like getting more options Yeah.

1336
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:50,010
Yeah, of course.

1337
00:56:50,015 --> 00:56:50,355
No worries.

1338
00:56:50,665 --> 00:56:50,975
Yeah, no worries.

1339
00:56:51,510 --> 00:56:54,870
I guess the part that I really wanted
to mention is that what differentiates

1340
00:56:54,870 --> 00:56:58,200
us, I think, from others in the space is
that we're very much like on the ground,

1341
00:56:58,410 --> 00:57:02,700
we have our teams on every country that
we operate in, we're far, we're focused.

1342
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,880
We're actually trying to work with the
people who are closest to the fish.

1343
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,970
We're not like the policy stuff
is like secondary, but really our

1344
00:57:08,970 --> 00:57:12,180
bread and butter is that we're like,
I work with aquaculture experts,

1345
00:57:12,180 --> 00:57:13,380
they've all studied aquaculture.

1346
00:57:13,380 --> 00:57:16,710
They understand exactly how
to farm fish in the best way.

1347
00:57:16,710 --> 00:57:21,030
And um, you know, so I think we go
in there from a technical perspective

1348
00:57:21,060 --> 00:57:22,710
or we're vet veterinarians as well.

1349
00:57:22,710 --> 00:57:22,980
Right.

1350
00:57:22,980 --> 00:57:23,835
So, um, Yeah.

1351
00:57:24,570 --> 00:57:28,230
Yeah, that's, I think really our
bread and butter is producer facing.

1352
00:57:28,500 --> 00:57:28,950
Yes.

1353
00:57:29,010 --> 00:57:29,070
Yeah.

1354
00:57:29,730 --> 00:57:32,550
Small scales of systems,
farming, uh, right.

1355
00:57:32,700 --> 00:57:33,150
Oriented.

1356
00:57:33,150 --> 00:57:33,480
Yeah.

1357
00:57:33,780 --> 00:57:34,135
That's all I want.

1358
00:57:34,140 --> 00:57:34,290
Yeah.

1359
00:57:34,290 --> 00:57:37,590
Very much like, very much
community focus, you know, like

1360
00:57:37,590 --> 00:57:39,150
in helping the community as well.

1361
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:42,840
Um, And so sometimes, like you said, it
might be fish that might help, or it might

1362
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:44,310
be seaweed or it might be something else.

1363
00:57:44,310 --> 00:57:44,910
You never know.

1364
00:57:45,270 --> 00:57:47,190
Um, and I think that's,
that's really great.

1365
00:57:47,190 --> 00:57:51,360
What's, uh, so for, for the organization,
obviously a, a, a fairly new organization,

1366
00:57:51,660 --> 00:57:56,790
um, what are you, what are your hopes
in the, in the future, like to direct

1367
00:57:56,790 --> 00:58:02,100
this organization and where do you hope
that, that you can be, um, uh, like best

1368
00:58:02,100 --> 00:58:06,360
helpful, you know, for, for communities
and, and countries And so forth?

1369
00:58:07,350 --> 00:58:09,300
Like, what do you have on the
horizon or what are you hoping

1370
00:58:09,300 --> 00:58:10,590
to accomplish on the horizon?

1371
00:58:11,295 --> 00:58:14,115
So seaweed was a big
one definitely for us.

1372
00:58:14,175 --> 00:58:15,825
Uh, that that came, kind
of came outta nowhere.

1373
00:58:15,825 --> 00:58:17,295
That I'm really not sure.

1374
00:58:17,655 --> 00:58:20,715
Well, I think the sky's, the sky's
the limit in terms where we can

1375
00:58:20,715 --> 00:58:24,525
go, just because there's so much
excitement and funding thrown at that.

1376
00:58:24,585 --> 00:58:27,765
Um, but I, it's a bit of a learning
curve for me because I actually don't

1377
00:58:27,765 --> 00:58:30,675
know too, too much just about how,
like, it is quite, it's actually

1378
00:58:30,675 --> 00:58:33,135
quite a, a whole field in itself.

1379
00:58:33,135 --> 00:58:36,405
You know, I know a lot about animals, but
I don't actually know too much about the

1380
00:58:37,065 --> 00:58:38,835
botanical aspect of that, unfortunately.

1381
00:58:39,455 --> 00:58:39,885
Yeah.

1382
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:40,210
Yeah.

1383
00:58:40,815 --> 00:58:44,595
So that's, that's becoming
bigger, uh, aspect of our work.

1384
00:58:44,655 --> 00:58:49,035
Um, we haven't talked about it at
all the, in our, uh, chat today,

1385
00:58:49,035 --> 00:58:53,565
but, uh, caviar farming is something
that I've also seen received.

1386
00:58:53,895 --> 00:58:57,135
Actually, when you're talking earlier
about like the zoo, for some reason

1387
00:58:57,135 --> 00:59:00,705
I started thinking of like sturgeon
and like, yeah, I was watching.

1388
00:59:00,705 --> 00:59:01,515
That's big out here.

1389
00:59:02,175 --> 00:59:02,955
Yeah, huge.

1390
00:59:02,955 --> 00:59:06,045
I was watching some videos of like
these, like stirs, like the baby

1391
00:59:06,045 --> 00:59:09,555
sturgeon being released and I was
like, mm-hmm man, if enough people saw

1392
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:11,535
just like how amazing these fish were.

1393
00:59:11,865 --> 00:59:15,015
Like the caviar industry is
actually responsible for a

1394
00:59:15,015 --> 00:59:16,545
fair bit of cruelty really.

1395
00:59:16,545 --> 00:59:17,400
And it's something that mm-hmm.

1396
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,985
I published about in the last
couple of years and I have a

1397
00:59:21,255 --> 00:59:24,855
ongoing project with someone from
UBC, animal Welfare Department.

1398
00:59:24,885 --> 00:59:26,625
Um, well, she's a graduate from there.

1399
00:59:27,105 --> 00:59:31,305
Um, we like interviewed producers
to see how we can do things better.

1400
00:59:31,365 --> 00:59:31,845
Interesting.

1401
00:59:31,845 --> 00:59:34,605
It is not a huge area of workforce us
it's just something I came to mind Yeah.

1402
00:59:34,605 --> 00:59:34,615
Yeah.

1403
00:59:34,615 --> 00:59:41,085
When you were talking, um, other, I guess
we have a, um, we're trying to work with

1404
00:59:41,085 --> 00:59:46,815
governments to develop codes of practices
on farm fish welfare, uh, in Africa.

1405
00:59:46,815 --> 00:59:50,115
So we have the Kenyan government
invited us to develop one for them,

1406
00:59:50,445 --> 00:59:54,315
which would be something that will
voluntary, but we believe that

1407
00:59:54,315 --> 00:59:57,165
the industry will, uh, sign on.

1408
00:59:57,405 --> 00:59:58,395
Uh, but that's kind.

1409
00:59:59,279 --> 01:00:01,980
You know, so Africa, the thing
about African aquaculture is it's

1410
01:00:01,980 --> 01:00:03,330
the fastest growing in the world.

1411
01:00:03,330 --> 01:00:06,900
So part of our focus to work there
was that we get in there mm-hmm.

1412
01:00:06,900 --> 01:00:10,319
For like all these like, bad practices
that we see in salmon farming

1413
01:00:10,319 --> 01:00:13,109
and all that gets like embedded.

1414
01:00:13,109 --> 01:00:17,430
So through things like the code of
practice, through early training, through

1415
01:00:17,580 --> 01:00:22,319
steering the industry, you know, towards
good technologies from the get go, I

1416
01:00:22,319 --> 01:00:25,890
think we can do, have, have impact.

1417
01:00:25,890 --> 01:00:28,890
So I'm excited about this approach
of like, you know, working, uh,

1418
01:00:28,890 --> 01:00:32,220
trying to incorporate high level,
uh, approaches, not just, you

1419
01:00:32,220 --> 01:00:34,259
know, farmer work as I mentioned.

1420
01:00:34,259 --> 01:00:37,319
Um, what else am I excited
about for this year?

1421
01:00:37,350 --> 01:00:40,080
I'm writing a book on, uh,
like, like academic book.

1422
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:40,319
Yeah.

1423
01:00:40,319 --> 01:00:41,549
I was to write that.

1424
01:00:41,549 --> 01:00:41,759
Yeah.

1425
01:00:41,759 --> 01:00:44,520
So I guess on a personal level that
could, it's always interesting because

1426
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:46,680
you end up absolutely loads Yeah.

1427
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:46,690
Yeah.

1428
01:00:47,025 --> 01:00:47,505
Yeah.

1429
01:00:47,955 --> 01:00:48,255
Cool.

1430
01:00:48,255 --> 01:00:51,945
It, it kind of adds to, to
your credibility, right.

1431
01:00:51,945 --> 01:00:55,935
As well as, as someone who's in this
space and helping out countries and not

1432
01:00:55,935 --> 01:00:59,595
only part of an organization, but you
know, putting your words to paper and,

1433
01:00:59,595 --> 01:01:01,395
and teaching other people as, as well.

1434
01:01:01,395 --> 01:01:02,775
So I think, think that's, yeah.

1435
01:01:02,775 --> 01:01:03,885
That's fantastic.

1436
01:01:04,395 --> 01:01:07,605
And Andrew actually, sorry, the Humane
Slaughter project I mentioned earlier,

1437
01:01:07,605 --> 01:01:12,735
like yeah, if we can, if we can find
or like refine a protocol, just even

1438
01:01:12,735 --> 01:01:17,535
just for like using ice as a ice
slurry to like immers fish quickly

1439
01:01:17,535 --> 01:01:19,605
emerge fish after taking out water.

1440
01:01:19,935 --> 01:01:19,995
Yeah.

1441
01:01:19,995 --> 01:01:21,615
In like the most humane way possible.

1442
01:01:21,615 --> 01:01:25,365
If we can perfect that and, you know,
adapt it so that people can use it

1443
01:01:25,365 --> 01:01:29,895
easily, I think that could reduce a lot of
suffering in a low cost, high impact way.

1444
01:01:29,895 --> 01:01:32,505
So I'm very excited about the
trials that are, are ongoing.

1445
01:01:32,505 --> 01:01:32,565
Yeah.

1446
01:01:32,865 --> 01:01:34,395
And that we'll continue
to go on this year.

1447
01:01:34,395 --> 01:01:37,095
So that's another thing
that I see on the horizon.

1448
01:01:37,095 --> 01:01:38,480
Sorry, I cut you off Yeah.

1449
01:01:38,485 --> 01:01:41,385
Yeah, no, no, I, I mean that's great
'cause I was just about to just say thank

1450
01:01:41,385 --> 01:01:42,735
you and everything, but that was awesome.

1451
01:01:42,735 --> 01:01:43,845
I'm glad you told me about that.

1452
01:01:44,190 --> 01:01:46,680
Um, 'cause it's just the different
ways that people are thinking about

1453
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:50,010
making sure that we're treating the
animals more humanely, you know?

1454
01:01:50,010 --> 01:01:54,030
And, And so, you know, aquaculture
as we know is, is one of the fastest

1455
01:01:54,030 --> 01:01:56,220
growing, uh, fisheries in the world.

1456
01:01:56,520 --> 01:02:01,320
Um, you know, it's, it's slated to,
uh, if not already, uh, you know, serve

1457
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:05,670
about 50% of the population, like world
population, uh, probably more than that.

1458
01:02:05,670 --> 01:02:06,540
In, in, in coming.

1459
01:02:06,540 --> 01:02:09,240
As you mentioned, African,
African countries are probably the

1460
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:13,290
biggest, the biggest growth of, of
aquaculture in the continent overall.

1461
01:02:13,590 --> 01:02:16,440
Um, And so it's, it's very interesting
to be able to, to talk to you,

1462
01:02:16,500 --> 01:02:19,500
uh, today about this with semen
and, and be able to, you know,

1463
01:02:19,500 --> 01:02:21,870
enlighten us on this type of work.

1464
01:02:21,990 --> 01:02:25,080
You know, I'd love, I know we are, we
kind of covered a lot today and, and,

1465
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:28,410
and a lot of different things, but I'd
love to invite you back on to talk about

1466
01:02:28,410 --> 01:02:32,700
specific projects and, and dive deeper
into it, um, into the science and just

1467
01:02:32,700 --> 01:02:35,970
to kinda give people a perspective of,
of the type of research that's that's

1468
01:02:35,970 --> 01:02:38,640
going on and, and how it, it it ties to.

1469
01:02:38,970 --> 01:02:42,270
Helping community because I find
with, with, with conservation, it's

1470
01:02:42,270 --> 01:02:43,950
really managing communities, right?

1471
01:02:43,955 --> 01:02:44,024
Absolutely.

1472
01:02:44,024 --> 01:02:45,600
And, and it's a big part of that.

1473
01:02:45,899 --> 01:02:46,200
Absolutely.

1474
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:48,629
And, um, because we do a lot of the
disturbance, so if we're gonna do a

1475
01:02:48,629 --> 01:02:51,180
lot of the disturbance, we need to
be managed, we need to do it right.

1476
01:02:51,450 --> 01:02:55,350
Um, it's great to have yourself and, and
your team, uh, to be out there and, and

1477
01:02:55,350 --> 01:02:59,220
helping, um, you know, countries who are
potentially new to this, uh, different

1478
01:02:59,220 --> 01:03:04,200
types of, of, of, uh, farming or just, you
know, welfare of, of animals in general.

1479
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:07,230
Be interested and, and work with
your, your organization to help out.

1480
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:09,750
I wanna thank you for your work, but
I also wanna thank you for coming

1481
01:03:09,750 --> 01:03:10,770
and sharing your story with us.

1482
01:03:11,460 --> 01:03:13,890
I really appreciate that and
I'm always happy to come back

1483
01:03:13,890 --> 01:03:14,910
and talk to your audience.

1484
01:03:14,910 --> 01:03:18,270
It's been really, really, uh,
a joy, uh, as always to talk

1485
01:03:18,270 --> 01:03:19,530
about our work and to share.

1486
01:03:19,770 --> 01:03:22,770
I just wanted to say, uh, Andrew
that personally, you know, like when

1487
01:03:22,770 --> 01:03:25,740
I saw this like title of speaking
up for the blue, I was like, ah,

1488
01:03:26,310 --> 01:03:27,570
yeah, is, is our work a good fit?

1489
01:03:27,570 --> 01:03:29,160
But I still want to
like, kind of go for it.

1490
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:30,660
I'm like, well, you know, absolutely.

1491
01:03:31,230 --> 01:03:31,885
You know, it's not Ocean.

1492
01:03:32,005 --> 01:03:32,125
Absolutely.

1493
01:03:32,435 --> 01:03:35,790
It's not necessarily like, you know,
the sexy Marine biology stuff, but it's

1494
01:03:35,790 --> 01:03:38,730
important and it's an important part
of the debate and we're trying to get

1495
01:03:38,730 --> 01:03:40,440
ourselves out there in different circles.

1496
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:40,740
Go ahead.

1497
01:03:40,740 --> 01:03:42,000
Yeah, absolutely.

1498
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:45,690
It's, it's one of those things where,
um, you know, people are always asking.

1499
01:03:46,245 --> 01:03:47,745
You know, people are
always asking about it.

1500
01:03:47,775 --> 01:03:53,145
And, and although it's not like the major
topics of, of today in terms of like,

1501
01:03:53,174 --> 01:03:56,205
you know, like you said, being sexy,
like climate change and things like that.

1502
01:03:56,205 --> 01:03:57,674
But it's something that
we have to identify.

1503
01:03:57,674 --> 01:04:00,985
It's not just all about, you know,
the major impacts that are, that

1504
01:04:00,985 --> 01:04:03,585
are, uh, hindering us, but it's also
making sure that we're treating the

1505
01:04:03,585 --> 01:04:05,595
animals properly in whatever we do.

1506
01:04:05,805 --> 01:04:08,415
You know, whether it's through
experimentation, whether it's through

1507
01:04:08,415 --> 01:04:12,674
aquaculture, whether it's through wildlife
caught fisheries, um, you know, the,

1508
01:04:12,674 --> 01:04:16,995
the, the less impact we have, the be,
you know, more humane impact we have,

1509
01:04:17,055 --> 01:04:21,465
the better, you know, and I think that's
a, that's a huge, uh, aspect to, uh, to

1510
01:04:21,465 --> 01:04:23,115
discussing and talking about the Ocean.

1511
01:04:23,205 --> 01:04:25,785
So I wanna thank you so much
for the work you do and of

1512
01:04:25,785 --> 01:04:26,895
course, coming on the podcast.

1513
01:04:27,105 --> 01:04:28,095
Em, it's been great to have you on.

1514
01:04:28,650 --> 01:04:29,370
Thank you so much.

1515
01:04:29,370 --> 01:04:30,300
It's really been a pleasure.

1516
01:04:30,300 --> 01:04:30,540
Yeah.

1517
01:04:30,540 --> 01:04:31,110
Thanks again.

1518
01:04:31,380 --> 01:04:31,680
Thank you.

1519
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:35,160
Was for joining us on today's episode
of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

1520
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:36,000
It was great to have you on.

1521
01:04:36,030 --> 01:04:39,690
It was great to have a great
conversation on ethical seafood, ethical

1522
01:04:39,690 --> 01:04:41,400
treatment of seafood in particular.

1523
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:44,610
So fish welfare, it's not a
conversation that we talk a lot about.

1524
01:04:44,700 --> 01:04:46,890
It's a conversation that we
should talk more about and I think

1525
01:04:46,895 --> 01:04:49,340
when that conversation arises,
a lot of people think of like.

1526
01:04:49,625 --> 01:04:53,345
Activism and advocacy, but
there's a lot of science that can

1527
01:04:53,345 --> 01:04:54,575
go into this type of research.

1528
01:04:54,605 --> 01:04:57,245
Even like within the aquaculture
industry, there's fish feed

1529
01:04:57,245 --> 01:04:57,905
that you have to look at.

1530
01:04:57,905 --> 01:04:59,525
How is the feed created?

1531
01:04:59,525 --> 01:05:00,425
Like how is it made?

1532
01:05:00,425 --> 01:05:02,585
Where are the fish that are
caught to make that fish feed?

1533
01:05:02,675 --> 01:05:03,935
Are they being fished sustainably?

1534
01:05:03,935 --> 01:05:05,285
Are they being treated properly?

1535
01:05:05,435 --> 01:05:08,345
And the same with the fish in
aquaculture pens, the same with the fish.

1536
01:05:08,375 --> 01:05:09,035
Wild caught.

1537
01:05:09,125 --> 01:05:13,055
Are we doing what we can to reduce
the amount of pain, reduce the

1538
01:05:13,055 --> 01:05:16,325
amount of problems that we are
having on the Ocean and on that

1539
01:05:16,325 --> 01:05:17,675
particular fish that's being eaten.

1540
01:05:17,705 --> 01:05:20,885
So it's a very interesting field
of study, one that doesn't get

1541
01:05:20,885 --> 01:05:24,035
talked about a lot, and I'm so happy
to have Wassim on the podcast to

1542
01:05:24,035 --> 01:05:25,685
be able to talk to him about it.

1543
01:05:25,685 --> 01:05:27,245
So super happy that he's here.

1544
01:05:27,245 --> 01:05:29,345
I'd love to hear what
you have to think about.

1545
01:05:29,425 --> 01:05:30,565
Fish welfare, do you care?

1546
01:05:30,565 --> 01:05:31,345
Do you not care?

1547
01:05:31,405 --> 01:05:33,475
What do you care about
in terms of fish welfare?

1548
01:05:33,655 --> 01:05:34,405
Love to hear your thoughts.

1549
01:05:34,405 --> 01:05:36,505
Let me know in the comments below
if you're watching this on YouTube

1550
01:05:36,625 --> 01:05:38,785
and if you're listening to this
on your favorite podcast app.

1551
01:05:38,785 --> 01:05:41,575
On the audio part, love our
audio listeners because that's

1552
01:05:41,575 --> 01:05:44,335
the first thing I did when I
came in to the podcast industry.

1553
01:05:44,335 --> 01:05:47,245
I was dealing with audio and I
still love my audio listeners.

1554
01:05:47,335 --> 01:05:51,325
You can go to speak up
for blue.com/feedback.

1555
01:05:51,325 --> 01:05:56,605
That's speak up for blue.com/feedback,
and you can either put in a voice note

1556
01:05:56,665 --> 01:05:59,935
or you can write your thoughts down
and I will get to read them and maybe

1557
01:05:59,935 --> 01:06:01,885
share them later on if you so desire.

1558
01:06:01,885 --> 01:06:05,785
But I wanna thank you so much until
then for listening to this episode of

1559
01:06:05,785 --> 01:06:07,165
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

1560
01:06:07,165 --> 01:06:09,925
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from
the True Nor Strong and free.

1561
01:06:09,925 --> 01:06:10,525
Have a great day.

1562
01:06:10,525 --> 01:06:12,775
We'll talk to you next time
and happy conservation.