Why Tuna Might Be Doing Better Than You Think

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Last year, 100% of the tuna catch in the

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reports by the International Seafood

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Sustainability Foundation are from stocks

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that were not experiencing overfishing.

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That sounds like a conservation success

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story that you rarely hear about.

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But here are the real questions.

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How did we actually get there?

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And is this progress

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as solid as it sounds?

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Because this didn't happen overnight.

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It took years of science, policy

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pressure, industry

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cooperation, and a system

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that finally started to work together.

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Today, we're breaking down with the

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people behind the data.

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This is the How to Protect the Ocean

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podcast, your weekday ocean news update.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

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And this week, we've been building up to

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this conversation by

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breaking down how tuna

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fisheries actually work, from stock

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assessments to harvest strategies to

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fisheries management systems.

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Today, we're bringing it all together.

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I am joined by the president of the

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International Seafood

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Sustainability Foundation,

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Susan Jackson, who is here to talk about

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the latest status of the stocks report

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and what it tells us about the state of

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global tuna fisheries.

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We're going to look at what this near

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100% milestone really means, how it was

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achieved and what still needs to happen

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to make sure the

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progress, this progress continues.

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So let's get into it.

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Here's the interview with Susan Jackson.

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I can't wait for you to hear

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it and I'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Susan, welcome back to the How to

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Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Are you ready to talk

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about tuna fisheries?

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Oh, I'm already always ready to talk

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about tuna and it's great to be back.

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Thanks, Andrew.

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Oh, it's so great to have you back.

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We have a big announcement to make today

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and I'm super excited to have you back.

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This is the first of a series of episodes

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that we're going to be having you and

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some of your colleagues on the podcast to

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be able to talk about some of the great

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things that happen at the

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ISSF and we're going to get into

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everything like that.

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But we've got a really big announcement.

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We're going to dive into not only the

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announcement of what went on

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to get to this point in time.

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So really happy news optimistic news,

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which is great to have when we talk about

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oceans, especially these days.

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So let's get into it before we make that

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announcement though.

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I says I want you to just remind the

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viewers and listeners of

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who you are and what you do.

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Thanks.

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Yes, I'm Susan Jackson.

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I'm the president of the International

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Seafood Sustainability Foundation or ISSF

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because that's otherwise a mouthful and

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ISSF is a partnership with the tuna

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processing, trading, marketing industry.

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So not the boats and not those who like

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feed you the tuna or you buy it from

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their shelves, but that middle plus tuna

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scientists and environmental NGOs who

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work on tuna issues.

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You know, it's kind of interesting before

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we get into everything, you know, having

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that representation for that supply chain

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part of like the middle part that often

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gets not necessarily ignored, but just is

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that unknown for a lot of fisheries.

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Just around the world, not just tuna, but

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seafood in general. And

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that is like the big thing.

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It's great to see that area of the supply

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chain being like, hey, you know what we

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want to have our voice to we want to make

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sure that we have sustainable seafood,

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you know, going forward.

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And we want to be a part of that.

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So that's I just wanted to give that a

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shout out to that because that was that's

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always nice to be able to see now ISSF

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recently released a status latest report

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called the status of the stocks report.

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And can you just talk about the major

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headline is the big announcement from

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this report because it is big.

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I'm pretty I'm pretty pumped about it.

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Yeah, well, we update our status of the

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tuna stocks report a couple times a year

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because things change quite frequently,

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not not necessarily because the tuna

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stock status changes all that frequently,

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but because there's 23 of them.

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So something is changing, right? And most

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recent status of the stocks report that

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came out late last month.

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It was reported that almost 100% of the

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world's major tuna catch comes from

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stocks not experiencing

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overfishing, which is fabulous.

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Unbelievable. Like it really is. I wish I

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could say 100 is like 2500 tons of

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Mediterranean Albacore have an uncertain

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stock and fishing effort.

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So, you know, because we're science based

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and precise that point.

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Oh, 4% of the of the world's tuna catch.

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We can't give a definitive

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green to. So we say almost 100.

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And also that that result, right? So

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you're fishing today. Are you fishing too

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much or just enough?

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That's where the hundred is.

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But that results in the status of a

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stock, right? Like it doesn't impact a

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stock immediately. But years of fishing

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pressure results in today's stock status.

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And that's it 97% of the volume of tuna

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that's caught in the world comes from

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stocks that are healthy. And the other

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thing that's really exciting is that none

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of it comes from

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stocks that are unhealthy.

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So there's like 3% that are on the way to

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getting healthy kind of in that right.

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They're not quite green yet. But 0% of

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the volume of tuna that's caught comes

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from unhealthy stocks and 0% of the tuna

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that's caught comes from stocks that

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currently are

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experiencing too much fishing.

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So, you know, when people listen to this,

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they'll be like, well, that's expected,

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like that we should be having that like,

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what's so significant about getting to

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this milestone for for for you for the

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ISF and for tuna in general?

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Yep. Well, your question use the word

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should and I don't quibble with that

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either. Yeah, that should be expected.

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And that should be where we are. But

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that's not how humans work. For starters.

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So I SSF has been around for about 17

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years. And so we've been keeping track

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globally for all that time. So for

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fishing pressure, the lowest point was in

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2016 were only 66% of the volume of tuna

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that was caught was not

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experiencing overfishing.

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So only two thirds at the time were

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experiencing the right amount of fishing,

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if you would. And also the status of the

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stock or that stock biomass, that low

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point was in 2011. And that was only 70%

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of the volume of the tuna that caught

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came from stocks that

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had a healthy biomass.

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So, yeah, they should be 100 and 100. But

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it's, it's a really big deal that they

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are now. And it took a lot of work by a

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lot of people to get there.

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Right. And you know, it's, it's, it's,

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and we're going to talk about what that

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work was, because it is significant. It

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is something that, you know, when we

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start to see success like this, we want

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to duplicate it, not only for tuna, but

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also for other fisheries.

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But I first want to kind of touch on

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something. There's, there's a lot of

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people in the audience who may not be

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familiar with some of the terms and, and,

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you know, just in terms of like, what's a

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healthy stock, what's not a healthy

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stock. So we know we're taking 0% from

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stocks that are not considered healthy,

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or we're taking, you know, maybe that 3%

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that are, or, or 0.4 that you're not sure

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about the 3% that are like on their way

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to healthy, which is like

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basically not overfished.

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What does it mean when a stock is not

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experiencing overfishing? Because, you

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know, a lot of we hear overfishing a lot,

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you know, when we just hear about

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fisheries in general, like, oh, there's a

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lot of whatever, everything is

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overfished, you know, we always blanket

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it all with, with everything

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when we talk about the overview.

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But when we get down to it, what does it

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mean that not experiencing overfishing?

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Yep. So a fish stock, right is is a

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cohort or a group and that group in tuna

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swim all across complete ocean basins. So

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it's not just like the California tuna

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stock or the Australia tuna stock, it's

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the eastern Pacific to the stock or the

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western and central Pacific to the big

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oceans, by the way, big,

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big parts of the ocean.

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They are. They are. So within that tuna

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stock, and you also have to remember,

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they're living creatures, right? And some

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species of tuna like skipjack don't live

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very long, three years. Some like like

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bluefin would have really long. So it is

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that balance because tuna is a very

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important food source is a very important

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economic and job creator

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for coastal countries, right?

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So there's that balance of how much tuna

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can you catch so that the stock is a

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healthy size, meaning it can stay that

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size forever. But also, you know, they're

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going to die naturally. So in a way,

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that's a waste of food.

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It's also important, right? It's

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important because they feed other fish

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and it is all important to the ecosystem.

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So when you say experiencing overfishing,

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it is fishing more catching more than the

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stock itself can sustain if it keeps

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getting caught at that rate. So that the

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size of the stock will get small to the

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point that it's not healthy anymore.

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Right. Gotcha. Okay, perfect. Now, what's

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interesting is like when people hear the

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number, you know, the almost 100%. And

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when we hear we've been throwing out a

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lot of numbers. They assume a lot of

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times that fisheries, especially tuna

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fisheries have been always well managed,

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right? It's always been like, Oh, no, we

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have it all the time. We see it in our

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stores all the time. I would assume that

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we're eating it, but we're eating it

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sustainably for the for the most part.

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That wasn't always the case, though, you

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know, and and you know, there's been a lot of work that's been done.

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What we're going to talk about. But what

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was the situation like 15 to 20 years

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ago? So which is also another way of

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phrasing the question, why did I assess

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up get started? Right around that

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timeline. Yeah. So at that point, right,

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00:10:30,291 --> 00:10:33,750
the bodies that manage tunas, five of

269
00:10:33,750 --> 00:10:36,166
them each in a, you know, large part of

270
00:10:36,166 --> 00:10:39,833
the ocean existed. So it wasn't like they weren't being built.

271
00:10:39,833 --> 00:10:42,000
They weren't being governed or managed.

272
00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:45,000
So that groundwork was done. Some of it

273
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,875
had been around for a long time. Some of

274
00:10:46,875 --> 00:10:49,333
them were pretty new. And they all had

275
00:10:49,333 --> 00:10:52,000
science bodies. And the scientists were

276
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,750
doing their sock assessments and, you

277
00:10:53,750 --> 00:10:55,833
know, giving them recommendations. Oh,

278
00:10:55,833 --> 00:10:57,333
you're fishing too much. You need to fish

279
00:10:57,333 --> 00:10:59,166
less or this was okay.

280
00:11:00,875 --> 00:11:04,208
And where it was falling apart is these

281
00:11:04,208 --> 00:11:07,250
large treaty bodies in the part of an

282
00:11:07,250 --> 00:11:11,250
ocean have dozens of countries sitting

283
00:11:11,250 --> 00:11:14,583
around the table. And then they have to

284
00:11:14,583 --> 00:11:18,291
decide what to do. And, you know, a few

285
00:11:18,291 --> 00:11:20,416
of them allow for voting, but that's kind

286
00:11:20,416 --> 00:11:23,916
of not done, at least not done

287
00:11:23,916 --> 00:11:26,041
frequently. So that puts you to a

288
00:11:26,041 --> 00:11:29,333
consensus position, which then puts you

289
00:11:29,333 --> 00:11:29,833
to a way to get the people to vote.

290
00:11:45,333 --> 00:11:51,500
And so, you know, the scientists just

291
00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:54,125
tell you what to do. And then the

292
00:11:54,125 --> 00:11:56,000
managers kind of treated that as the

293
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,833
floor, and then negotiated up from there. And then the managers kind of treated that as the floor.

294
00:11:58,833 --> 00:12:02,041
And then the managers kind of thought from there, if they could agree at all.

295
00:12:02,916 --> 00:12:05,541
So that's kind of why you saw that that

296
00:12:05,541 --> 00:12:08,041
dip. And right around the time I since

297
00:12:08,041 --> 00:12:12,791
I've got started, one of the RFMOs met

298
00:12:12,791 --> 00:12:17,250
seven times and failed to come up with an

299
00:12:17,250 --> 00:12:19,500
agreement on how to manage a stock that

300
00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:22,791
was unquestionably not in a good place.

301
00:12:24,458 --> 00:12:25,416
So, interesting.

302
00:12:26,875 --> 00:12:29,708
So the two scientists, the NGOs and some

303
00:12:29,708 --> 00:12:31,250
of the leading tuna companies, the

304
00:12:31,250 --> 00:12:33,833
founders, there were eight of them said,

305
00:12:33,833 --> 00:12:35,750
you know, there's got to be something we

306
00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:37,583
can do to help here, because what's

307
00:12:37,583 --> 00:12:38,291
happening is the

308
00:12:38,291 --> 00:12:39,666
governments are getting together.

309
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:45,333
And some number of their constituents go

310
00:12:45,333 --> 00:12:46,500
to the meetings with them.

311
00:12:48,291 --> 00:12:50,000
But they're all hearing different things.

312
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,416
And they're all being asked for different

313
00:12:51,416 --> 00:12:54,375
things. And taken together, we're global.

314
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,916
And we can help all the countries around

315
00:12:57,916 --> 00:13:01,833
the table hear one very loud voice that

316
00:13:01,833 --> 00:13:03,583
says, please just do what the

317
00:13:03,583 --> 00:13:05,250
scientists say you need to do.

318
00:13:05,875 --> 00:13:08,708
So over the years, that voice has gotten

319
00:13:08,708 --> 00:13:10,875
louder and more expansive.

320
00:13:14,083 --> 00:13:17,666
But also, I that's not the only thing,

321
00:13:17,666 --> 00:13:20,000
right? You have MSC stewardship council

322
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,458
certification taking off, which demands

323
00:13:22,458 --> 00:13:23,916
that the stocks be healthy

324
00:13:23,916 --> 00:13:26,083
if you want to get certified.

325
00:13:26,083 --> 00:13:28,416
And so that kind of brings the boats into

326
00:13:28,416 --> 00:13:31,666
a louder voice, urging proper management

327
00:13:31,666 --> 00:13:34,875
and more NGOs got involved. Retailers

328
00:13:34,875 --> 00:13:37,125
started getting involved. Indian Ocean

329
00:13:37,125 --> 00:13:39,291
Yellifin a couple of years ago, there

330
00:13:39,291 --> 00:13:40,875
were actually some retailers that said,

331
00:13:40,875 --> 00:13:42,458
if you don't get your act together, we're

332
00:13:42,458 --> 00:13:42,833
not going to buy any.

333
00:13:42,875 --> 00:13:45,416
Yellifin from the Indian Ocean. Yeah,

334
00:13:45,416 --> 00:13:48,833
period. So more and more voices farther

335
00:13:48,833 --> 00:13:50,833
and in different places along that supply

336
00:13:50,833 --> 00:13:53,208
chain started asking, we all started

337
00:13:53,208 --> 00:13:53,916
listening to the

338
00:13:53,916 --> 00:13:55,333
scientists. How about that?

339
00:13:55,916 --> 00:13:58,000
And I think that's great. You know, as a

340
00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:59,916
scientist, you know, who's always like

341
00:13:59,916 --> 00:14:01,375
saying that he's like, hey, let's let's

342
00:14:01,375 --> 00:14:02,958
be scientists and listen

343
00:14:02,958 --> 00:14:03,833
to what the science says.

344
00:14:03,833 --> 00:14:06,083
I think that's been, you know, especially

345
00:14:06,083 --> 00:14:08,083
in fisheries, you know, as someone who

346
00:14:08,083 --> 00:14:10,458
comes from Canada, knowing the history of

347
00:14:10,458 --> 00:14:13,125
the cod fishery and what happened there.

348
00:14:13,375 --> 00:14:15,291
And, you know, the fact is that people

349
00:14:15,291 --> 00:14:16,875
didn't listen to the government

350
00:14:16,875 --> 00:14:18,875
scientists even to say, hey, you know,

351
00:14:18,875 --> 00:14:20,333
this stock is not doing well.

352
00:14:20,625 --> 00:14:21,958
And it's going to it's completely it's

353
00:14:21,958 --> 00:14:23,541
completely depleting to a point where

354
00:14:23,541 --> 00:14:24,708
we're not going to be able to fish again.

355
00:14:25,208 --> 00:14:25,791
And then, you know,

356
00:14:25,791 --> 00:14:26,708
you know, the history.

357
00:14:26,916 --> 00:14:28,125
We've I've talked about a lot on this

358
00:14:28,125 --> 00:14:30,041
podcast, Susan, you know, the history.

359
00:14:30,041 --> 00:14:31,500
It's I don't have to go through it

360
00:14:31,500 --> 00:14:32,833
because that'll take up too much time.

361
00:14:32,833 --> 00:14:35,000
And we want to talk to you. It's a

362
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,666
different podcast completely. But, you

363
00:14:37,666 --> 00:14:40,166
know, you mentioned that when I came

364
00:14:40,166 --> 00:14:43,958
together and all the people involved came

365
00:14:43,958 --> 00:14:45,000
together, it became

366
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:46,750
this bigger voice, right?

367
00:14:46,750 --> 00:14:49,083
It's the voice of not only science, but

368
00:14:49,083 --> 00:14:51,541
also practitioners and also, you know,

369
00:14:51,666 --> 00:14:53,416
like we mentioned before, the supply

370
00:14:53,416 --> 00:14:54,583
chain. That voice became

371
00:14:54,583 --> 00:14:56,333
louder and louder and louder.

372
00:14:57,791 --> 00:14:59,958
And it kind of made me interested in it

373
00:14:59,958 --> 00:15:01,750
when you said it that way because there's

374
00:15:01,750 --> 00:15:04,166
so many ways that voices can be

375
00:15:04,166 --> 00:15:05,416
interpreted when they get

376
00:15:05,416 --> 00:15:07,000
louder and louder and louder.

377
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,375
Everything from the extreme to activism

378
00:15:09,375 --> 00:15:12,291
and, you know, going to extreme and, you

379
00:15:12,291 --> 00:15:14,000
know, ramming boats or getting in the way

380
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,166
of things and things like that, all the

381
00:15:16,166 --> 00:15:19,791
way to getting loud, but not into a point

382
00:15:19,791 --> 00:15:20,833
where it's aggressive.

383
00:15:20,875 --> 00:15:24,083
But it's more of let's let us help you

384
00:15:24,083 --> 00:15:26,500
like let us work with you to help you do

385
00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:28,916
stuff. Can you just talk a little bit

386
00:15:28,916 --> 00:15:32,500
about how that voice was implemented into

387
00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:34,791
the process? Because it's really I would

388
00:15:34,791 --> 00:15:37,958
imagine a new organization at the time,

389
00:15:37,958 --> 00:15:40,125
like ISSF, that it would be difficult to.

390
00:15:41,833 --> 00:15:44,208
Like almost like legitimately kind of put

391
00:15:44,208 --> 00:15:45,375
yourself into place with all these

392
00:15:45,375 --> 00:15:47,416
different governments that are, you know,

393
00:15:47,416 --> 00:15:49,625
want to have a say, they may not want to

394
00:15:49,625 --> 00:15:52,000
give up that kind of leverage. But here

395
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,208
is ISF coming through. It's like, well,

396
00:15:53,208 --> 00:15:55,000
look, we've got these experts on all the

397
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,125
different sides and we want to help you

398
00:15:57,125 --> 00:15:58,750
guys put this into place. So can you just

399
00:15:58,750 --> 00:16:00,416
talk about what that voice was like and

400
00:16:00,416 --> 00:16:00,833
how it was received?

401
00:16:01,833 --> 00:16:06,416
Certainly. And I use ISF generally as the

402
00:16:06,416 --> 00:16:10,291
ISF voice. Right. But ISF is not just the

403
00:16:10,291 --> 00:16:12,750
ISF voice, right? We knew from the very

404
00:16:12,750 --> 00:16:15,750
beginning, we started with eight

405
00:16:15,750 --> 00:16:18,750
companies, we now have 23. All of those

406
00:16:18,750 --> 00:16:22,208
companies are in countries. And it's not

407
00:16:22,208 --> 00:16:24,500
just one country, they could sell in a

408
00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:25,833
bunch of countries, they could have

409
00:16:25,833 --> 00:16:27,833
plants in a bunch of coastal countries.

410
00:16:27,833 --> 00:16:33,875
So it's relying on those businesses to go

411
00:16:33,875 --> 00:16:36,416
talk to their governments because they

412
00:16:36,416 --> 00:16:38,875
have a lot more weight. If you're

413
00:16:38,875 --> 00:16:41,958
employing a couple of thousand, 5000,

414
00:16:42,458 --> 00:16:45,041
whatever people in a country at your

415
00:16:45,041 --> 00:16:49,083
plant, then, you know, getting an email

416
00:16:49,083 --> 00:16:50,791
from me saying, hey, I'd

417
00:16:50,791 --> 00:16:51,833
like to have a chat. Right.

418
00:16:51,875 --> 00:16:56,291
So the companies did a lot. Also, we

419
00:16:56,291 --> 00:16:58,416
started at the very beginning with a

420
00:16:58,416 --> 00:17:01,666
scientific advisory committee, which was

421
00:17:01,666 --> 00:17:05,958
and still is constituted of the premier

422
00:17:05,958 --> 00:17:08,458
tuna scientists in

423
00:17:08,458 --> 00:17:09,833
each region of the world.

424
00:17:10,416 --> 00:17:13,125
Plus a bycatch expert and a fisheries

425
00:17:13,125 --> 00:17:15,291
economist and, you know, a couple of

426
00:17:15,291 --> 00:17:18,083
other general practitioners, if you will,

427
00:17:18,083 --> 00:17:21,625
but still really well known and respected

428
00:17:21,625 --> 00:17:24,583
fisheries scientists. So they were

429
00:17:24,583 --> 00:17:26,708
working through their science community.

430
00:17:27,041 --> 00:17:30,125
And ISF started really with the big

431
00:17:30,125 --> 00:17:31,750
helping hand from the very beginning

432
00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:33,833
where we funded some science.

433
00:17:33,875 --> 00:17:36,791
Like I talk about the stock says has

434
00:17:36,791 --> 00:17:40,083
gotten better. But at the same time, the

435
00:17:40,083 --> 00:17:42,750
stock assessment methodology has gotten

436
00:17:42,750 --> 00:17:45,083
better. It has gotten more consistently

437
00:17:45,083 --> 00:17:49,250
applied across all the species and in all

438
00:17:49,250 --> 00:17:50,458
the ocean regions where

439
00:17:50,458 --> 00:17:51,833
that didn't used to happen.

440
00:17:51,875 --> 00:17:54,333
So the playing field has been leveled.

441
00:17:54,666 --> 00:17:56,750
The participating companies started

442
00:17:56,750 --> 00:18:00,708
volunteering their purchase data down to

443
00:18:00,708 --> 00:18:03,791
species and sizes and vessel and trip.

444
00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:07,750
And many of the RMOs now use that as part

445
00:18:07,750 --> 00:18:09,375
of the data that goes into

446
00:18:09,375 --> 00:18:10,833
the stock assessment model.

447
00:18:11,333 --> 00:18:14,000
So we started with the beginning, not

448
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:15,750
just like, hey, we're over here yelling

449
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:17,291
and you should listen to us, which is

450
00:18:17,291 --> 00:18:18,958
what your question made us sound like.

451
00:18:19,208 --> 00:18:21,291
Yeah. Right. But it was like, we'd really

452
00:18:21,291 --> 00:18:23,541
like to help you do this. And here are

453
00:18:23,541 --> 00:18:25,625
some ways from day one,

454
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,833
we'd like to help. Yeah.

455
00:18:27,833 --> 00:18:30,083
Yeah. We also, as I said, partnered with

456
00:18:30,083 --> 00:18:32,833
the NGO community. And and I guess the

457
00:18:32,833 --> 00:18:35,208
the other shout out I neglected to give

458
00:18:35,208 --> 00:18:36,708
at the very beginning is to tune

459
00:18:36,708 --> 00:18:39,083
themselves. I mean, we are fortunately

460
00:18:39,083 --> 00:18:42,291
working with an incredibly resilient

461
00:18:42,291 --> 00:18:45,000
group of species. I mean, I talked about

462
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,416
the fact that skipjack is very short

463
00:18:47,416 --> 00:18:50,500
lived, which means a short amount of

464
00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:52,500
fishing pressure relief is going to make

465
00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:54,833
the stock get bigger quicker. But let's

466
00:18:54,833 --> 00:18:56,416
go to the other end of the spectrum where

467
00:18:56,416 --> 00:18:57,625
we talk about bluefin.

468
00:18:57,625 --> 00:18:57,833
That's a good question.

469
00:18:57,833 --> 00:18:59,291
And I think that's incredibly long lived.

470
00:18:59,541 --> 00:19:02,208
Well, Western and Eastern Atlantic

471
00:19:02,208 --> 00:19:05,000
bluefin are two huge success stories,

472
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,541
where they really cut down the amount

473
00:19:09,541 --> 00:19:12,666
that could be caught the vessels, you

474
00:19:12,666 --> 00:19:14,750
know, took it on the chin and did the

475
00:19:14,750 --> 00:19:17,708
right thing and reduce their catch. And

476
00:19:17,708 --> 00:19:23,083
those long lived species also rebounded

477
00:19:23,083 --> 00:19:25,291
pretty quickly. So if you

478
00:19:25,291 --> 00:19:26,291
just give them a little help.

479
00:19:27,041 --> 00:19:29,083
Yeah, two to two will do a lot of the

480
00:19:29,083 --> 00:19:31,708
heavy lifting themselves. Absolutely. I

481
00:19:31,708 --> 00:19:33,583
think, you know, that's a pretty big

482
00:19:33,583 --> 00:19:36,708
thing for the people who are purchasing

483
00:19:36,708 --> 00:19:39,291
the tuna to put their data over like

484
00:19:39,291 --> 00:19:41,291
that. You know, you don't see that often.

485
00:19:41,750 --> 00:19:44,666
That's a that's a big move to doing that.

486
00:19:45,041 --> 00:19:47,625
And it helps with that supply chain, that

487
00:19:47,625 --> 00:19:49,166
transparency all the way through, which

488
00:19:49,166 --> 00:19:50,833
we talked a lot about in your in the last

489
00:19:50,833 --> 00:19:52,416
pack, the podcast that you were that you

490
00:19:52,416 --> 00:19:54,750
were on, and how it's so important for

491
00:19:54,750 --> 00:19:56,791
fisheries to ensure that we manage fish

492
00:19:56,875 --> 00:20:00,000
trees so well. You know, when you when

493
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,833
you go back at it, I mean, that could

494
00:20:01,833 --> 00:20:03,583
have affected it could have it could have

495
00:20:03,583 --> 00:20:05,750
turned them or turned around and kind of

496
00:20:05,750 --> 00:20:07,333
bit them in the butt, so to speak, in

497
00:20:07,333 --> 00:20:09,041
terms of like, Oh, you're taking too much

498
00:20:09,041 --> 00:20:11,375
of this, are you taking? That's a big

499
00:20:11,375 --> 00:20:14,208
risk to take for for a purchaser to do

500
00:20:14,208 --> 00:20:17,000
that. What? And but the reason they did

501
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,625
it was to help with the fishery to make

502
00:20:18,625 --> 00:20:20,000
sure that things were going well and to

503
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,958
help with that processing. Right? Was

504
00:20:22,958 --> 00:20:24,333
that a difficult thing

505
00:20:24,333 --> 00:20:26,791
for, you know, those companies

506
00:20:26,875 --> 00:20:28,666
to do to hand that to hand that data?

507
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,291
Surprisingly not. I mean, they knew that

508
00:20:33,291 --> 00:20:35,625
politically, it had gotten to the point

509
00:20:35,625 --> 00:20:37,750
that something had to give and they knew

510
00:20:37,750 --> 00:20:40,916
that this would really help them get

511
00:20:40,916 --> 00:20:43,250
credibility and would help ISSF get

512
00:20:43,250 --> 00:20:45,333
credibility globally with the fishery

513
00:20:45,333 --> 00:20:47,916
managers. I should also make it clear

514
00:20:47,916 --> 00:20:51,083
that this data is between the companies

515
00:20:51,083 --> 00:20:53,875
and the scientists, like our compliance

516
00:20:53,875 --> 00:20:55,375
auditors get verification

517
00:20:55,375 --> 00:20:56,833
that the data has been submitted.

518
00:20:56,875 --> 00:20:59,583
But I don't see it. Nobody on the ISSF

519
00:20:59,583 --> 00:21:02,875
staff sees it. And there were all of the

520
00:21:02,875 --> 00:21:08,166
member countries had a pretty mature data

521
00:21:08,166 --> 00:21:11,541
confidentiality agreement in place with

522
00:21:11,541 --> 00:21:14,125
their RFMOs and the science providers.

523
00:21:14,500 --> 00:21:18,083
And this got treated in that same way. So

524
00:21:18,083 --> 00:21:21,000
because there was that base of trust,

525
00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:23,791
that helped it happen for sure.

526
00:21:24,541 --> 00:21:26,375
Absolutely. And one of the major tools

527
00:21:26,375 --> 00:21:28,416
that that helped the tuna management get

528
00:21:28,416 --> 00:21:29,708
to where it is right now, something

529
00:21:29,708 --> 00:21:31,750
called harvest strategy. Can you just

530
00:21:31,750 --> 00:21:33,833
talk about what that Harvard what what is

531
00:21:33,833 --> 00:21:35,333
a harvest strategy in this

532
00:21:35,333 --> 00:21:36,916
case since in particular?

533
00:21:37,541 --> 00:21:41,166
I can remembering. I mean, I think I've

534
00:21:41,166 --> 00:21:42,791
done a great job so far, considering I'm not a tuna scientist.

535
00:21:43,833 --> 00:21:47,583
And I know you're going to talk to some

536
00:21:47,583 --> 00:21:49,541
others, but I can talk in general about

537
00:21:49,541 --> 00:21:53,750
why harvest strategies are awesome. So

538
00:21:53,750 --> 00:21:56,250
and and this is another thing I talked

539
00:21:56,250 --> 00:21:57,958
briefly at the beginning about the

540
00:21:57,958 --> 00:22:00,500
increased demand and expectation for

541
00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:01,500
marine stewardship

542
00:22:01,500 --> 00:22:03,750
council certified tuna, right?

543
00:22:03,833 --> 00:22:06,250
So not only did the stocks have to be

544
00:22:06,250 --> 00:22:09,416
healthy, but they needed to be managed

545
00:22:09,416 --> 00:22:12,000
using harvest strategies. So what's the

546
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,333
harvest strategy? Well, I talked about at

547
00:22:14,333 --> 00:22:16,333
the beginning how this whole annual

548
00:22:16,333 --> 00:22:20,208
negotiation cycle was not great, right?

549
00:22:20,208 --> 00:22:21,250
And it wasn't working well.

550
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,916
And so the harvest strategy as much as

551
00:22:23,916 --> 00:22:27,125
possible takes the politics out of it. It

552
00:22:27,125 --> 00:22:31,250
sets up in advance. If the stock gets

553
00:22:31,250 --> 00:22:34,875
here, then we're going to do this. And if

554
00:22:34,875 --> 00:22:37,416
the stock gets there, we're going to do

555
00:22:37,416 --> 00:22:41,875
that. And so the scientists report on

556
00:22:41,875 --> 00:22:43,833
their stock assessment. And the

557
00:22:43,833 --> 00:22:47,125
predetermined harvest strategy kind of

558
00:22:47,125 --> 00:22:49,416
spits out the answer, if you will.

559
00:23:07,208 --> 00:23:21,375
They go back to it, and it takes them out

560
00:23:21,375 --> 00:23:21,791
of all cases to dourer, the

561
00:23:21,833 --> 00:23:23,000
this is the result. And

562
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,375
then there might be adaptive

563
00:23:24,458 --> 00:23:25,916
management that goes through on that

564
00:23:25,916 --> 00:23:26,916
depending on the time and

565
00:23:26,916 --> 00:23:28,500
situation in the result. But you know,

566
00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:29,583
that's that's the strategy

567
00:23:29,583 --> 00:23:31,500
and that's what it does. And I really

568
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:32,541
like that because it

569
00:23:32,708 --> 00:23:36,458
really puts that together. But before

570
00:23:36,458 --> 00:23:38,166
these strategies were

571
00:23:38,166 --> 00:23:40,541
implemented, you know, how

572
00:23:40,541 --> 00:23:42,291
are fishing limits typically

573
00:23:42,458 --> 00:23:43,083
decided?

574
00:23:43,916 --> 00:23:44,250
Yeah.

575
00:23:46,583 --> 00:23:49,541
Well, it depends how you limited them,

576
00:23:49,541 --> 00:23:51,208
right? Like, in the Eastern

577
00:23:51,375 --> 00:23:53,916
Pacific, they have a

578
00:23:53,916 --> 00:23:58,166
controlled capacity for the region,

579
00:23:59,208 --> 00:24:02,625
but it's been exceeded. And then the

580
00:24:02,625 --> 00:24:05,333
scientists say, well, then

581
00:24:05,333 --> 00:24:06,875
the fishery itself has to

582
00:24:06,875 --> 00:24:08,625
shut down for a certain number of

583
00:24:08,625 --> 00:24:10,000
days. And there they

584
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,625
negotiate the number of days that the

585
00:24:11,625 --> 00:24:14,458
closure is going to be. And you know, the

586
00:24:14,458 --> 00:24:15,375
goal is always to get

587
00:24:15,375 --> 00:24:16,041
it as close to the

588
00:24:16,041 --> 00:24:17,875
scientific advice. So that's one way.

589
00:24:18,416 --> 00:24:21,416
Another way is they'll say the

590
00:24:21,416 --> 00:24:22,916
scientists say you can't catch

591
00:24:22,916 --> 00:24:24,750
more than I'm going to make up a number.

592
00:24:25,625 --> 00:24:27,750
200,000 tons of this

593
00:24:27,916 --> 00:24:29,916
stock, right? And then

594
00:24:29,916 --> 00:24:32,000
they'll negotiate around that. And

595
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,875
they'll end up with a number. Never

596
00:24:35,875 --> 00:24:39,791
under, but close to 200,000.

597
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,083
Right. But then what do you do with it?

598
00:24:42,083 --> 00:24:43,416
Some of the RFMOs have

599
00:24:43,458 --> 00:24:45,458
gone through the really hard

600
00:24:45,458 --> 00:24:47,375
negotiation of allocating that

601
00:24:47,458 --> 00:24:51,666
out, because you can only enforce a

602
00:24:51,666 --> 00:24:53,000
country share at the

603
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,166
country level split among its vessels,

604
00:24:55,166 --> 00:24:56,500
however it chooses to do

605
00:24:56,500 --> 00:25:00,125
it at its most, you know, at its best

606
00:25:00,125 --> 00:25:03,541
implementation. But some

607
00:25:03,583 --> 00:25:05,875
RFMOs have still just set that number.

608
00:25:06,958 --> 00:25:09,791
And then are kind of

609
00:25:09,833 --> 00:25:12,041
looking at catch reports and

610
00:25:12,041 --> 00:25:14,000
data that's submitted and just

611
00:25:14,166 --> 00:25:16,583
like call a halt to the fishery at a

612
00:25:16,583 --> 00:25:18,833
whole if they go over it,

613
00:25:18,833 --> 00:25:22,166
that's the least precise, right? And

614
00:25:22,166 --> 00:25:23,708
right. And, and, you know,

615
00:25:23,708 --> 00:25:25,916
kind of everything in between and how

616
00:25:25,916 --> 00:25:27,500
robust and mature those

617
00:25:27,500 --> 00:25:31,833
allocations are. So allocation is very

618
00:25:31,833 --> 00:25:33,458
important. And it is

619
00:25:33,458 --> 00:25:38,416
still an area that needs work. And that

620
00:25:38,416 --> 00:25:40,000
is truly a political

621
00:25:40,250 --> 00:25:42,791
negotiation. You know, it is just the old

622
00:25:42,791 --> 00:25:45,208
fashioned horse trading, I'll give you

623
00:25:45,208 --> 00:25:46,791
some of this, if you give me some of

624
00:25:46,791 --> 00:25:49,875
that, and that is what has to happen.

625
00:25:50,875 --> 00:25:52,083
Yeah, and you know, we've seen this in

626
00:25:52,083 --> 00:25:54,250
many governments around the world, it

627
00:25:54,250 --> 00:25:56,041
doesn't matter whether you're in Europe,

628
00:25:56,041 --> 00:25:57,291
whether you're in the Western

629
00:25:57,333 --> 00:25:58,833
country, other Western countries, or

630
00:25:58,833 --> 00:26:01,000
you're in the Eastern countries, it all,

631
00:26:01,166 --> 00:26:02,833
you know, when it becomes political like

632
00:26:02,833 --> 00:26:05,500
that, you're the fisheries at

633
00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:08,500
the helm of the the political

634
00:26:08,625 --> 00:26:12,000
party at of the day or of the time, you

635
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,833
know, and that and that can significantly

636
00:26:13,833 --> 00:26:17,791
matter in how the fishery is managed, you

637
00:26:17,791 --> 00:26:19,666
know, some may care, some may not or some

638
00:26:19,666 --> 00:26:22,083
may go the opposite. And that could be a

639
00:26:22,083 --> 00:26:24,458
big that could be a big problem in the

640
00:26:24,458 --> 00:26:26,416
long run, which we've seen with marine

641
00:26:26,416 --> 00:26:28,375
protected areas where sometimes they're,

642
00:26:28,375 --> 00:26:29,625
they're protected, sometimes they're not

643
00:26:29,625 --> 00:26:31,500
protected, like it just depends on who's

644
00:26:31,500 --> 00:26:33,625
involved and who's around. This is all

645
00:26:33,625 --> 00:26:34,666
over the world, you know,

646
00:26:34,666 --> 00:26:35,958
this, you know, especially these

647
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,666
and not just fisheries and fisheries all

648
00:26:38,666 --> 00:26:42,208
sorts of things right and so so I liked

649
00:26:42,208 --> 00:26:45,000
how that we take the politics out we get

650
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,208
to the harvest management, we look at

651
00:26:47,208 --> 00:26:49,166
look these are the limits, no matter what

652
00:26:49,166 --> 00:26:51,000
we're going to assess based on the stock,

653
00:26:51,458 --> 00:26:52,666
and we're going to let the science speak

654
00:26:52,666 --> 00:26:54,083
for itself. I feel like that's a

655
00:26:54,083 --> 00:26:57,041
recurring sort of theme in all of our

656
00:26:57,041 --> 00:26:58,416
discussions in this way.

657
00:26:58,416 --> 00:27:00,125
But also, like, there's there's other

658
00:27:00,125 --> 00:27:01,250
programs of all that, like, there's a

659
00:27:01,250 --> 00:27:03,708
harvest strategy, but what supported or

660
00:27:03,708 --> 00:27:06,083
what helps support that process is when

661
00:27:06,083 --> 00:27:07,625
you mentioned it earlier, the MSC

662
00:27:07,625 --> 00:27:09,083
certification program, which is the right

663
00:27:09,083 --> 00:27:10,541
scholarship Council certification

664
00:27:10,541 --> 00:27:12,166
program, that is had a pretty big

665
00:27:12,166 --> 00:27:14,083
connection, you know, between the between

666
00:27:14,083 --> 00:27:15,375
the two the harvest strategies in there.

667
00:27:15,666 --> 00:27:18,166
Can you just talk about that connection

668
00:27:18,166 --> 00:27:21,083
and how the harvest strategy support the

669
00:27:21,083 --> 00:27:22,083
certification process?

670
00:27:22,916 --> 00:27:26,041
Absolutely. So in order to pass your

671
00:27:26,041 --> 00:27:29,875
certification, the tuna, the management

672
00:27:29,875 --> 00:27:32,708
of the seafood stock, whatever it is, in

673
00:27:32,708 --> 00:27:36,000
our cases, tuna must be done through a

674
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,625
harvest strategy and management procedure

675
00:27:38,625 --> 00:27:42,791
that has to be how they do it. So as when

676
00:27:42,791 --> 00:27:44,125
isis up was getting started

677
00:27:44,125 --> 00:27:46,458
and as MSC was ramping up.

678
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,416
There was only one stock of tuna Southern

679
00:27:50,416 --> 00:27:53,166
blue fin that had a harvest strategy in

680
00:27:53,166 --> 00:27:56,958
place. Wow. Okay. Yeah. And lots of tuna

681
00:27:56,958 --> 00:28:00,041
fisheries really wanted to get MSC

682
00:28:00,041 --> 00:28:02,166
certified. You have Walmart, you had some

683
00:28:02,166 --> 00:28:04,791
other retailers starting to demand MSC.

684
00:28:05,250 --> 00:28:07,041
It was really becoming a thing.

685
00:28:07,833 --> 00:28:12,041
So in 2012, there were about 100,000 tons

686
00:28:12,041 --> 00:28:14,666
of tuna certified, which, you know, seems

687
00:28:14,666 --> 00:28:17,333
like a lot, but your base is over 5

688
00:28:17,333 --> 00:28:20,958
million, right? So in 2012, it was

689
00:28:20,958 --> 00:28:26,125
100,000 tons. And that's probably more

690
00:28:26,125 --> 00:28:29,208
than one stock had started working on the

691
00:28:29,208 --> 00:28:32,333
harvest strategy. But now, again, other

692
00:28:32,333 --> 00:28:34,000
than our good friend Mediterranean

693
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,000
albacore, all stocks have started

694
00:28:37,458 --> 00:28:40,291
the process of working through the steps

695
00:28:40,291 --> 00:28:43,208
that need to be done to have a harder

696
00:28:43,208 --> 00:28:46,583
strategy in place and several of them

697
00:28:46,583 --> 00:28:55,208
1-2-3-4-5-7-8-10. 10 of the 23 have, as

698
00:28:55,208 --> 00:28:57,416
of now, adopted a full management

699
00:28:57,416 --> 00:29:01,541
procedure. That is done because of the

700
00:29:01,541 --> 00:29:03,375
popularity and the pool of

701
00:29:03,375 --> 00:29:05,416
MSC. That is directly related.

702
00:29:05,458 --> 00:29:09,041
And that was not easy. Let me give you a

703
00:29:09,041 --> 00:29:11,625
few other MSC facts and figures. It was

704
00:29:11,625 --> 00:29:14,541
in 2017, they got close to a million. So

705
00:29:14,541 --> 00:29:17,958
from 2012 to 2017, five years, they went

706
00:29:17,958 --> 00:29:21,083
from 100,000 to about 900,000. And then

707
00:29:21,083 --> 00:29:25,000
again, by 2022, they were up to 1.9

708
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,041
million or almost 2 million certified.

709
00:29:28,416 --> 00:29:31,625
And then last year, about 2.8 million

710
00:29:31,625 --> 00:29:35,000
tons certified or half the global catch.

711
00:29:35,708 --> 00:29:41,333
And a lot of that is because of the

712
00:29:41,333 --> 00:29:44,083
improvement in the harvest strategies,

713
00:29:44,083 --> 00:29:47,083
right? But now imagine for a second that

714
00:29:47,083 --> 00:29:49,250
you're a fisheries manager and you're

715
00:29:49,250 --> 00:29:52,291
used to having this real

716
00:29:52,291 --> 00:29:55,041
time control and negotiation.

717
00:29:55,458 --> 00:29:59,000
And suddenly somebody is telling you that

718
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,625
really what you need to do is this. And

719
00:30:02,625 --> 00:30:05,125
it's really scary. And you're thinking

720
00:30:05,125 --> 00:30:07,000
about your bosses back home. You're

721
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,458
thinking about your fishing fleets.

722
00:30:08,625 --> 00:30:10,916
You're thinking about, you know, oh my

723
00:30:10,916 --> 00:30:15,500
gosh, I'm giving up control. So from 2012

724
00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:21,791
until about 2018 or 19, there were lots

725
00:30:21,791 --> 00:30:25,416
of organizations, scientific, NGOs, countries, and people.

726
00:30:39,958 --> 00:30:48,250
And so that was a big lift for everybody.

727
00:30:48,791 --> 00:30:50,416
And again, another great success story.

728
00:30:50,416 --> 00:30:53,041
success story. Yeah and you know it's

729
00:30:53,041 --> 00:30:54,250
kind of funny we're talking of you know

730
00:30:54,250 --> 00:30:55,916
fisheries management, fishery scientists,

731
00:30:55,916 --> 00:30:57,875
we're talking about policy and how

732
00:30:57,875 --> 00:30:59,708
important that but we haven't really

733
00:30:59,708 --> 00:31:01,250
talked about the people who actually

734
00:31:01,250 --> 00:31:03,500
catch the fish, the fishing communities,

735
00:31:03,708 --> 00:31:05,583
the fishers right. How do they

736
00:31:05,583 --> 00:31:07,291
fit into the success story because

737
00:31:07,291 --> 00:31:10,625
obviously you know they can fish if they

738
00:31:10,625 --> 00:31:13,000
wanted to technically quote-unquote they

739
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,500
could fish whatever they wanted to and

740
00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:15,958
then yeah they would get caught and it

741
00:31:15,958 --> 00:31:17,916
would be bad but obviously they must

742
00:31:17,958 --> 00:31:20,125
have played a role in in this success

743
00:31:20,125 --> 00:31:21,541
right and so can you just talk a little

744
00:31:21,541 --> 00:31:23,500
bit about what role they played?

745
00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:26,500
Absolutely they play a big role right as

746
00:31:26,500 --> 00:31:29,875
I often say to our scientists if somebody

747
00:31:29,875 --> 00:31:31,500
tomorrow who's on the water

748
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:33,708
doesn't do something different than what

749
00:31:33,708 --> 00:31:37,500
they did today your life's work has been

750
00:31:37,500 --> 00:31:40,708
for naught because you know if you're

751
00:31:40,708 --> 00:31:42,583
working on fisheries and you're trying to

752
00:31:42,583 --> 00:31:44,875
improve fishing that is what you

753
00:31:44,875 --> 00:31:46,750
ultimately have to do is actually

754
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,333
improve fishing. Again a lot of the

755
00:31:51,333 --> 00:31:55,250
vessel work on harvest strategies has

756
00:31:55,250 --> 00:31:57,500
was because they wanted to get MSC

757
00:31:57,500 --> 00:32:00,625
certified right it's the fisheries that

758
00:32:00,625 --> 00:32:03,125
have to apply and in some cases that

759
00:32:03,125 --> 00:32:04,708
could be a government or that could be

760
00:32:04,708 --> 00:32:07,583
an organization but in most cases it is

761
00:32:07,583 --> 00:32:10,791
or it's closely related to a boat so the

762
00:32:10,833 --> 00:32:13,791
boat wants to get certified that means

763
00:32:13,791 --> 00:32:16,375
the boat is gonna have to start

764
00:32:16,416 --> 00:32:19,625
advocating to its country and beyond to

765
00:32:19,625 --> 00:32:21,666
get harvest strategies so that the

766
00:32:21,666 --> 00:32:24,875
tuna stocks that's catching will have

767
00:32:24,875 --> 00:32:27,291
harvest strategies managing them but

768
00:32:27,291 --> 00:32:29,333
that also means that the people the boat

769
00:32:29,333 --> 00:32:32,541
sells to have to be asking for it

770
00:32:32,916 --> 00:32:34,500
right which means that the people that

771
00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:37,291
the processor sell to the retailers also

772
00:32:37,375 --> 00:32:40,458
have to be asking for it and and it is

773
00:32:40,458 --> 00:32:43,291
you know it is that asking that pool by

774
00:32:43,333 --> 00:32:46,750
the market broadly that is also really

775
00:32:46,750 --> 00:32:49,958
really increased so yes the boats have

776
00:32:49,958 --> 00:32:53,500
been an important part not only of the

777
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:55,916
harvest strategy success story but the

778
00:32:56,333 --> 00:33:00,208
RFML advocacy in general you know MSC

779
00:33:00,208 --> 00:33:03,208
isn't just about stock status under

780
00:33:03,208 --> 00:33:05,291
principle to there's a whole lot of stuff

781
00:33:05,291 --> 00:33:07,250
that has to happen on ecosystem

782
00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:11,333
impacts and bycatch mitigation yeah which

783
00:33:11,333 --> 00:33:13,666
leads to RFML advocacy for

784
00:33:13,666 --> 00:33:16,541
requirements there but also leads to the

785
00:33:16,541 --> 00:33:18,708
vessels having to prove that they're

786
00:33:18,708 --> 00:33:20,958
doing these required things right so

787
00:33:20,958 --> 00:33:24,000
again it's so much on the vessels and

788
00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:27,291
it's it's up to them yeah out of the

789
00:33:27,291 --> 00:33:29,083
success for sure and it's a lot of

790
00:33:29,083 --> 00:33:31,916
voluntary you know programs and a lot of

791
00:33:31,916 --> 00:33:33,583
voluntary you know advocating for

792
00:33:33,666 --> 00:33:35,125
themselves and being like hey we want to

793
00:33:35,125 --> 00:33:36,666
be a part of this can you talk about

794
00:33:36,666 --> 00:33:39,166
the program I'm not sure if I'm gonna

795
00:33:39,166 --> 00:33:41,583
pronounce this properly is it VOCI is

796
00:33:41,583 --> 00:33:45,416
that okay VOCI it audits you know for

797
00:33:45,416 --> 00:33:47,208
voluntary best practices can you just

798
00:33:47,208 --> 00:33:50,250
talk about the goal of that program and

799
00:33:50,250 --> 00:33:53,041
and how it's implemented yep sure the

800
00:33:53,041 --> 00:33:56,250
the goal of that program technically VOCI

801
00:33:56,250 --> 00:33:58,791
stands for vessels in other

802
00:33:58,833 --> 00:34:02,333
sustainability initiatives but to me V is

803
00:34:02,333 --> 00:34:04,708
voluntary and yeah and that's it's

804
00:34:04,708 --> 00:34:07,041
voluntary but they're not just

805
00:34:07,041 --> 00:34:09,250
self-declared our compliance auditor

806
00:34:09,250 --> 00:34:11,541
audits to make sure that they're doing

807
00:34:11,541 --> 00:34:13,458
the voluntary things that they say they

808
00:34:13,458 --> 00:34:17,333
are doing so first of all a vessel

809
00:34:17,333 --> 00:34:19,208
vessels fishing within an MSC

810
00:34:19,250 --> 00:34:22,166
certified fishery when we started the

811
00:34:22,166 --> 00:34:26,458
BOCI five years ago that wasn't really

812
00:34:26,625 --> 00:34:29,916
transparent it was hard to find it wasn't

813
00:34:29,916 --> 00:34:32,125
up-to-date information so one of

814
00:34:32,125 --> 00:34:34,250
the first things we did on the BOCI was

815
00:34:34,250 --> 00:34:37,583
work with MSC and fishery progress who

816
00:34:37,583 --> 00:34:41,250
was running the fifth lists to say and

817
00:34:41,250 --> 00:34:43,583
our compliance auditor how but if vessels

818
00:34:43,666 --> 00:34:45,750
say they're fishing in an MSC certified

819
00:34:45,750 --> 00:34:48,416
fishery and it's this one or in a fifth

820
00:34:48,416 --> 00:34:51,166
and it's that one how can we define an

821
00:34:51,166 --> 00:34:52,791
audit protocol so that they can be

822
00:34:52,833 --> 00:34:56,666
audited and then we can provide credible

823
00:34:56,666 --> 00:34:58,291
evidence through the BOCI that

824
00:34:58,291 --> 00:35:00,333
they are in fact doing that right because

825
00:35:00,333 --> 00:35:01,625
we were getting to the point

826
00:35:01,625 --> 00:35:05,041
where retailers were demanding MSC or a

827
00:35:05,041 --> 00:35:08,000
FIP I as a processors were starting to

828
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,000
disclose how much MSC fish they were

829
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,166
buying but they still really needed that

830
00:35:14,166 --> 00:35:17,375
verified link to say okay here the three

831
00:35:17,375 --> 00:35:18,958
boats in this shipment and look

832
00:35:19,125 --> 00:35:21,625
that's that's where they are right so

833
00:35:21,625 --> 00:35:23,916
that's how the BOCI got its start by

834
00:35:23,916 --> 00:35:26,166
identifying vessels that were

835
00:35:26,166 --> 00:35:28,625
participating in MSC certified fisheries

836
00:35:28,708 --> 00:35:33,708
or FIPs and then we started adding to it

837
00:35:33,708 --> 00:35:37,583
a lot of bycatch mitigation measures

838
00:35:37,583 --> 00:35:41,416
and implementation that vessels were

839
00:35:41,416 --> 00:35:44,500
doing implementing on board plus

840
00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:47,083
electronic monitoring so now there are

841
00:35:47,083 --> 00:35:50,416
about eight other things that if you're

842
00:35:50,416 --> 00:35:55,708
a boat and you're only using finfish bait

843
00:35:55,708 --> 00:35:57,958
or using circle hooks or

844
00:35:57,958 --> 00:36:01,125
biodegradable fads or participating in a

845
00:36:01,125 --> 00:36:03,541
fad retrieval pilot you can get

846
00:36:03,541 --> 00:36:06,500
recognized for that on the BOCI once the

847
00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:08,291
compliance auditors have verified that

848
00:36:08,291 --> 00:36:10,625
you're doing so it is another

849
00:36:10,625 --> 00:36:13,666
transparency platform it hopefully helps

850
00:36:13,750 --> 00:36:16,958
inform buyers decisions but it also helps

851
00:36:16,958 --> 00:36:18,875
them keep their MSC certifications

852
00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:22,250
because MSC also requires evidence that

853
00:36:22,250 --> 00:36:24,250
you're doing these things and so they

854
00:36:24,250 --> 00:36:26,708
often look now to our audited vessel

855
00:36:26,708 --> 00:36:29,625
lists as part of the annual surveillance

856
00:36:29,625 --> 00:36:32,291
audit evidence that gets submitted to

857
00:36:32,291 --> 00:36:34,791
show that these things are happening and

858
00:36:34,791 --> 00:36:37,458
how many vessels participate in the BOCI

859
00:36:37,458 --> 00:36:41,041
program Oh total BOCI I feel like we're

860
00:36:41,041 --> 00:36:43,750
getting close to a thousand seven or

861
00:36:43,750 --> 00:36:45,833
eight hundred but that doesn't tell the

862
00:36:45,833 --> 00:36:47,333
whole story because some of them are only

863
00:36:47,333 --> 00:36:49,000
on there for one thing but some of

864
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,041
them are on there for three or four

865
00:36:50,041 --> 00:36:52,625
things right because they're doing lots

866
00:36:52,625 --> 00:36:55,500
of initiatives and we're approaching

867
00:36:55,500 --> 00:36:59,041
three thousand initiatives that there

868
00:36:59,041 --> 00:37:01,541
that are being recognized on out of the

869
00:37:01,541 --> 00:37:03,458
almost the one thousand boats that are

870
00:37:03,625 --> 00:37:08,291
participating Wow right on and then we

871
00:37:08,291 --> 00:37:10,041
have another list that's looks at the

872
00:37:10,041 --> 00:37:13,416
mandatory things right and you know we're

873
00:37:13,416 --> 00:37:15,625
we have well over a thousand

874
00:37:15,708 --> 00:37:18,208
votes on that on that one as well but the

875
00:37:18,208 --> 00:37:21,833
voluntary I um it's it's definitely

876
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,583
getting uptick and I think it's really

877
00:37:24,583 --> 00:37:26,333
important for people to remember if

878
00:37:26,333 --> 00:37:27,750
you're super curious and you go to our

879
00:37:27,750 --> 00:37:30,916
website to look at it even if a boat is

880
00:37:30,958 --> 00:37:33,791
doing one thing that is awesome if a boat

881
00:37:33,791 --> 00:37:36,000
is doing six things that is awesome

882
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,875
because V is voluntary yeah and if

883
00:37:38,875 --> 00:37:42,000
they're on the BOCI they're doing great

884
00:37:42,500 --> 00:37:44,500
well and I know it's kind of like what I

885
00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:47,416
tell people from an individual

886
00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:48,708
perspective they're like what can I do

887
00:37:48,708 --> 00:37:50,416
protect the ocean like stop buying

888
00:37:50,416 --> 00:37:53,458
single-use plastic it may not be a huge

889
00:37:53,458 --> 00:37:58,166
thing for you to do but it helps and if

890
00:37:58,208 --> 00:38:00,875
everybody starts to do one thing that

891
00:38:00,875 --> 00:38:02,875
would help that one thing get decreased

892
00:38:02,875 --> 00:38:05,583
if you started to do the one thing first

893
00:38:05,583 --> 00:38:06,708
and then be like you know what

894
00:38:06,708 --> 00:38:09,708
okay we've got this down pat let's try

895
00:38:09,708 --> 00:38:12,000
and let's not accept plastic bags at the

896
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,208
at the grocery store okay now you're

897
00:38:14,208 --> 00:38:16,291
trying to take out plastic bags so in

898
00:38:16,291 --> 00:38:19,500
this analogy if a vessel says hey we're

899
00:38:19,500 --> 00:38:21,250
doing one thing like we're using

900
00:38:21,291 --> 00:38:23,250
circle hooks now we're gonna use

901
00:38:23,250 --> 00:38:26,166
biodegradable fads so a fish

902
00:38:26,625 --> 00:38:28,500
aggregation devices and so now we're

903
00:38:28,500 --> 00:38:29,833
doing two things because we've gotten

904
00:38:29,916 --> 00:38:31,833
ready and it's working with this one

905
00:38:31,833 --> 00:38:34,333
we've gotten the process done let's be

906
00:38:34,333 --> 00:38:36,958
honest for anybody to do any change

907
00:38:36,958 --> 00:38:38,875
humans don't we don't like change to do

908
00:38:38,875 --> 00:38:40,875
one change after doing maybe decades of

909
00:38:40,875 --> 00:38:42,916
one type of fishing and then you're

910
00:38:42,916 --> 00:38:44,416
changing your way of doing thing that's a

911
00:38:44,416 --> 00:38:46,750
big process to take to do and getting

912
00:38:46,750 --> 00:38:48,208
people to buy on board so you do one

913
00:38:48,208 --> 00:38:50,000
thing then you start doing another and

914
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,000
I'm assuming the boats just start to add

915
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,333
on and add on in time and you get to

916
00:38:54,375 --> 00:38:55,833
certain boats who are doing six things

917
00:38:55,833 --> 00:38:57,875
and that's that's on the VOC and then it

918
00:38:57,875 --> 00:39:00,375
keeps increasing but during that time as

919
00:39:00,375 --> 00:39:03,166
we are demonstrating in this in this

920
00:39:03,166 --> 00:39:06,541
episode you start to see a change in the

921
00:39:06,541 --> 00:39:08,666
way we are fishing where we're almost at

922
00:39:08,666 --> 00:39:11,250
a hundred percent you know fully you know

923
00:39:11,250 --> 00:39:13,125
fully sustainably fished right all

924
00:39:13,125 --> 00:39:14,708
the all the fish that were fully

925
00:39:14,708 --> 00:39:17,125
sustainably fished that's incredible

926
00:39:17,208 --> 00:39:18,750
that's just the evidence like it's not

927
00:39:18,750 --> 00:39:20,125
just the evidence that the auditors are

928
00:39:20,166 --> 00:39:22,458
providing that's being done the overall

929
00:39:22,458 --> 00:39:24,458
goal is being achieved I think

930
00:39:24,458 --> 00:39:26,625
you know sometimes we get like I get lost

931
00:39:26,625 --> 00:39:27,666
in that's like okay we got these

932
00:39:27,666 --> 00:39:29,083
auditors they're out there they're doing

933
00:39:29,083 --> 00:39:30,875
their work okay cool where they

934
00:39:30,875 --> 00:39:32,833
verified this or they maybe found a

935
00:39:32,833 --> 00:39:34,208
little problem but then they fixed it

936
00:39:34,208 --> 00:39:36,541
okay cool we're on track right and then

937
00:39:36,541 --> 00:39:38,083
all of a sudden you know you start to

938
00:39:38,083 --> 00:39:40,791
see these results these huge results and

939
00:39:40,791 --> 00:39:42,416
you're like well it started with the

940
00:39:42,416 --> 00:39:44,125
program with somebody one vessel taking

941
00:39:44,125 --> 00:39:45,791
on one thing and then it's starting to

942
00:39:45,833 --> 00:39:48,250
grow from that so I I want my audience to

943
00:39:48,250 --> 00:39:50,500
like kind of be like hey like this is

944
00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:51,958
a big thing even if you're doing one

945
00:39:51,958 --> 00:39:54,083
thing like it's a big change and it's

946
00:39:54,083 --> 00:39:57,083
contributing to this overall you know

947
00:39:57,083 --> 00:39:59,375
result that we have of almost you know

948
00:39:59,375 --> 00:40:02,750
like virtually a hundred percent of the

949
00:40:02,750 --> 00:40:04,208
fish stock we're from sustainably fished

950
00:40:04,208 --> 00:40:07,541
so I think that is the overall goal in

951
00:40:07,541 --> 00:40:10,625
that and it goes towards it goes towards

952
00:40:10,708 --> 00:40:12,791
transparency that that we keep talking

953
00:40:12,791 --> 00:40:16,083
about right the fact that is is has a

954
00:40:16,083 --> 00:40:19,166
number of processors and like the supply

955
00:40:19,166 --> 00:40:20,375
chain people involved I mean

956
00:40:20,375 --> 00:40:22,750
that's a big thing of the importance of

957
00:40:22,750 --> 00:40:26,708
data sharing their data like and like

958
00:40:26,750 --> 00:40:29,666
the data has to be good data right and

959
00:40:29,666 --> 00:40:31,416
why is it so like we you know you can put

960
00:40:31,416 --> 00:40:33,208
any data in but we have these orders are

961
00:40:33,208 --> 00:40:34,916
taking specific things you have

962
00:40:34,958 --> 00:40:37,333
processors that are giving over data that

963
00:40:37,333 --> 00:40:40,625
they're meticulous in in in using and

964
00:40:40,625 --> 00:40:42,375
then the fishers are being meticulous

965
00:40:42,375 --> 00:40:43,416
because they have to go through the

966
00:40:43,416 --> 00:40:45,916
certification program why is good data so

967
00:40:45,916 --> 00:40:47,583
important when we're talking about

968
00:40:47,583 --> 00:40:49,041
fisheries management in general

969
00:40:50,416 --> 00:40:55,708
well because that's what it all relies on

970
00:40:55,708 --> 00:40:59,375
right you know otherwise it's just a

971
00:40:59,375 --> 00:41:02,500
guess yeah you know maybe slightly

972
00:41:02,500 --> 00:41:04,750
educated maybe a little more educated

973
00:41:05,416 --> 00:41:11,916
but um it it needs to be as solid as you

974
00:41:11,916 --> 00:41:15,333
can get it yeah it really does it 100

975
00:41:15,333 --> 00:41:16,958
percent i'm kind of i know that was a

976
00:41:16,958 --> 00:41:19,041
simple question to answer because you

977
00:41:19,041 --> 00:41:20,333
know we all know the importance of good

978
00:41:20,333 --> 00:41:22,541
data but sometimes we hear species can't

979
00:41:22,541 --> 00:41:24,916
be assessed because there's not enough

980
00:41:24,916 --> 00:41:28,041
data right so how does that does that

981
00:41:28,041 --> 00:41:30,875
challenge affect fisheries management

982
00:41:30,875 --> 00:41:32,666
because there are some and i'm not sure

983
00:41:32,666 --> 00:41:33,541
in terms of a of the two

984
00:41:33,583 --> 00:41:37,000
enough fishy fisheries in general with

985
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:38,958
all the different species if there's

986
00:41:38,958 --> 00:41:40,833
enough data for all of them to be

987
00:41:40,833 --> 00:41:42,458
assessed but i've seen this in other

988
00:41:42,458 --> 00:41:44,833
government stock reports where like here

989
00:41:44,833 --> 00:41:47,208
in canada we only have data for like 34

990
00:41:47,208 --> 00:41:49,291
percent of our fish stock so that needs

991
00:41:49,291 --> 00:41:51,666
to increase so you know how does that

992
00:41:51,666 --> 00:41:53,125
challenge like if there's if there's a

993
00:41:53,125 --> 00:41:54,416
lack of data in some of the tuna

994
00:41:54,416 --> 00:41:55,916
fisheries how's that challenge fisheries

995
00:41:55,916 --> 00:41:58,791
management for the future um that's a

996
00:41:58,791 --> 00:41:59,708
really good question for

997
00:41:59,708 --> 00:42:00,833
when you talk to victor

998
00:42:03,666 --> 00:42:06,333
i can't tell you yeah that in victor's

999
00:42:06,333 --> 00:42:08,375
you know tuna stock assessment 101

1000
00:42:08,375 --> 00:42:11,458
presentation he has a great slide that

1001
00:42:11,458 --> 00:42:14,625
has like a boy scout soapbox derby car

1002
00:42:14,625 --> 00:42:18,458
and then it has like the deck of this

1003
00:42:18,458 --> 00:42:22,416
star trek enterprise okay and he's like

1004
00:42:22,416 --> 00:42:25,083
somewhere in between here is how

1005
00:42:25,083 --> 00:42:27,000
sophisticated your stock assessment model

1006
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,250
can be and they're all better than

1007
00:42:29,250 --> 00:42:31,375
nothing right yeah so

1008
00:42:31,375 --> 00:42:32,666
that's what i can tell you

1009
00:42:33,583 --> 00:42:47,000
so one other thing before i come please

1010
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,166
on the transparency piece i want to talk

1011
00:42:49,166 --> 00:42:51,000
a little bit more about the other things

1012
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,750
on the bose and the ecosystem impacts and

1013
00:42:53,750 --> 00:42:56,750
the bycatch mitigation you know part of

1014
00:42:56,750 --> 00:43:00,458
all of our compliance audits be it

1015
00:43:00,458 --> 00:43:02,666
participating companies or the vessels

1016
00:43:03,833 --> 00:43:06,291
is the belief that that's

1017
00:43:06,291 --> 00:43:07,791
our most effective advocacy

1018
00:43:08,333 --> 00:43:10,458
because we're not just making this stuff

1019
00:43:10,458 --> 00:43:13,208
up this is things that the scientists

1020
00:43:13,208 --> 00:43:16,375
recommended should be happening yes so in

1021
00:43:16,375 --> 00:43:18,416
a diplomatic realm the

1022
00:43:18,416 --> 00:43:20,041
scientists should recommend it.

1023
00:43:20,875 --> 00:43:23,125
and then the fishery managers should talk

1024
00:43:23,125 --> 00:43:26,833
to their constituents and if it's a is is

1025
00:43:26,833 --> 00:43:28,583
participating company they would be like

1026
00:43:28,583 --> 00:43:30,458
oh yeah we only buy from boats that are

1027
00:43:30,458 --> 00:43:32,458
doing that or if they're talking to a

1028
00:43:32,458 --> 00:43:33,875
boat they say oh yeah

1029
00:43:33,875 --> 00:43:35,875
we're already doing that or.

1030
00:43:36,125 --> 00:43:38,791
You know is is that says did you know

1031
00:43:38,791 --> 00:43:42,125
around the world there are 1200 boats

1032
00:43:42,125 --> 00:43:44,125
that are already doing that and 40 of

1033
00:43:44,125 --> 00:43:46,791
them are flagged to your country so it

1034
00:43:46,791 --> 00:43:50,000
gives us again that you know credible

1035
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,583
voice not just a loud voice.

1036
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:55,791
Yeah i think that's

1037
00:43:55,791 --> 00:43:58,125
that's pretty cool it like.

1038
00:43:59,083 --> 00:44:01,291
It's it's so important especially when

1039
00:44:01,291 --> 00:44:03,875
you start to see that grow and and and

1040
00:44:03,875 --> 00:44:05,416
like it's like i said before you start to

1041
00:44:05,416 --> 00:44:07,666
see the the the overall result happen

1042
00:44:07,666 --> 00:44:10,833
with all these things slowly growing as

1043
00:44:10,833 --> 00:44:12,458
we go through and it just makes it so

1044
00:44:12,458 --> 00:44:14,125
much so much better.

1045
00:44:14,500 --> 00:44:16,500
I want to talk a little bit about the

1046
00:44:16,500 --> 00:44:19,208
bigger picture here because like when we

1047
00:44:19,208 --> 00:44:20,875
talk when people hear stories of

1048
00:44:20,875 --> 00:44:23,625
overfishing in the news they often assume

1049
00:44:23,625 --> 00:44:24,916
it's like fisheries management is just

1050
00:44:24,916 --> 00:44:28,333
failing right but what does like this

1051
00:44:28,333 --> 00:44:31,958
tuna milestone tell us about you know

1052
00:44:31,958 --> 00:44:34,291
what is actually possible when it comes

1053
00:44:34,291 --> 00:44:35,250
to fisheries management.

1054
00:44:36,833 --> 00:44:39,291
Well first of all it tells you that with

1055
00:44:39,291 --> 00:44:42,291
tuna and many other species of tuna

1056
00:44:42,291 --> 00:44:45,625
they're really resilient creatures and

1057
00:44:45,625 --> 00:44:51,166
you know if you set yourself up and set

1058
00:44:51,166 --> 00:44:54,041
them up for success they'll do their part

1059
00:44:54,041 --> 00:44:56,125
this is you know this is not.

1060
00:44:57,083 --> 00:45:00,291
A collapse right this is not the last

1061
00:45:00,291 --> 00:45:02,541
white rhino or you know what other

1062
00:45:02,541 --> 00:45:07,333
tragedy we have commercially got seafood

1063
00:45:07,333 --> 00:45:11,458
is a managed species not a conserved

1064
00:45:11,458 --> 00:45:13,041
species right right on.

1065
00:45:13,833 --> 00:45:16,375
And and so i think just in general it

1066
00:45:16,375 --> 00:45:19,208
shows you that it's possible i think it's

1067
00:45:19,208 --> 00:45:22,000
also important to remember that for

1068
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,250
things like tuna you know we talked about

1069
00:45:24,250 --> 00:45:25,125
how they're managed by

1070
00:45:25,125 --> 00:45:26,375
these collection of countries.

1071
00:45:27,125 --> 00:45:29,291
But still they can't do it all they can

1072
00:45:29,291 --> 00:45:32,791
pass what needs to happen but every

1073
00:45:32,791 --> 00:45:34,000
country sitting around that

1074
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:35,166
table has to go back home.

1075
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,333
Yeah make sure it does happen in their

1076
00:45:38,333 --> 00:45:42,000
waters and by vessels carrying their flag

1077
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,833
and then the rfmo's themselves need to

1078
00:45:45,833 --> 00:45:48,083
assess the compliance of those countries

1079
00:45:48,083 --> 00:45:50,333
to make sure they're doing their part so

1080
00:45:50,333 --> 00:45:53,291
it's not just one lever and then we can

1081
00:45:53,291 --> 00:45:57,166
be like okay we're good is you know you

1082
00:45:57,166 --> 00:45:58,500
have to keep your eye.

1083
00:45:58,708 --> 00:46:03,625
You globally not only on what the rfmo's

1084
00:46:03,625 --> 00:46:05,083
are doing but what the member countries

1085
00:46:05,083 --> 00:46:07,250
are doing and that's another reason why i

1086
00:46:07,250 --> 00:46:09,875
think things like the is of transparency

1087
00:46:09,875 --> 00:46:11,291
platforms the marine

1088
00:46:11,291 --> 00:46:14,291
stewardship council certifications is.

1089
00:46:15,250 --> 00:46:19,458
Another type of compliance i to help

1090
00:46:19,458 --> 00:46:22,166
those fishery managers out to make sure

1091
00:46:22,166 --> 00:46:23,375
that what's supposed to be

1092
00:46:23,375 --> 00:46:25,583
happening is actually happening.

1093
00:46:26,375 --> 00:46:28,250
Yeah i completely i completely agree i

1094
00:46:28,250 --> 00:46:29,916
think that's yeah that's such a cool

1095
00:46:29,916 --> 00:46:32,083
thing now of course you know we're not

1096
00:46:32,083 --> 00:46:35,208
always perfect in the way we manage

1097
00:46:35,208 --> 00:46:37,083
fisheries changes happen and.

1098
00:46:37,083 --> 00:46:39,500
We have to be on top of it and having

1099
00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:41,375
these systems in place helps us stay on

1100
00:46:41,375 --> 00:46:44,083
top of it what do you find like from your

1101
00:46:44,083 --> 00:46:46,541
experience and the work that you've done

1102
00:46:46,541 --> 00:46:49,250
with is like what are the biggest

1103
00:46:49,250 --> 00:46:50,000
challenges still

1104
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:51,791
remaining in tunis sustainability.

1105
00:46:53,083 --> 00:46:56,541
Yeah i talked a little bit about the

1106
00:46:56,541 --> 00:46:58,583
monitoring and the compliance you know

1107
00:46:58,583 --> 00:47:01,583
it's still it still makes me sad that

1108
00:47:01,583 --> 00:47:03,666
there are some oceans in the world when

1109
00:47:03,666 --> 00:47:06,041
even large scale personers don't need to

1110
00:47:06,041 --> 00:47:07,791
have a hundred percent observer coverage.

1111
00:47:08,750 --> 00:47:12,083
We have this fabulous technology now with

1112
00:47:12,083 --> 00:47:14,250
electronic monitoring and artificial

1113
00:47:14,250 --> 00:47:17,583
intelligence reviewing the films to just

1114
00:47:17,583 --> 00:47:20,041
start doing better spot checks to make

1115
00:47:20,041 --> 00:47:22,666
sure that the rules are being complied

1116
00:47:22,666 --> 00:47:24,583
with and i wish there were greater.

1117
00:47:25,250 --> 00:47:28,166
Up take an embracing of that technology

1118
00:47:28,166 --> 00:47:30,791
you still have that age old debate about

1119
00:47:30,791 --> 00:47:33,250
well this compliance information is good

1120
00:47:33,250 --> 00:47:35,500
but are we gonna use it for compliance or

1121
00:47:35,500 --> 00:47:37,500
we just gonna use it for science or in

1122
00:47:37,500 --> 00:47:39,541
some cases it's used for compliance but

1123
00:47:39,541 --> 00:47:40,875
can't be used for science

1124
00:47:40,875 --> 00:47:42,958
and right i find that to be.

1125
00:47:43,708 --> 00:47:46,875
Frustrating yeah you know we have these

1126
00:47:46,875 --> 00:47:49,791
fabulous tools now and we should be using

1127
00:47:49,791 --> 00:47:52,958
them to the greatest extent yet the

1128
00:47:52,958 --> 00:47:55,583
information can be used for so that's my

1129
00:47:55,583 --> 00:47:58,208
that's my downer on the progress is being

1130
00:47:58,208 --> 00:48:01,208
made lots of progress is being made and i

1131
00:48:01,208 --> 00:48:03,666
think that's really really important that

1132
00:48:03,666 --> 00:48:06,500
the more exciting one and this is sort of

1133
00:48:06,500 --> 00:48:08,833
on the on the cutting edge and i know

1134
00:48:08,833 --> 00:48:10,250
you'll talk about it on

1135
00:48:10,250 --> 00:48:12,250
several podcasts in the future yeah.

1136
00:48:12,291 --> 00:48:14,416
But starting to look at the ecosystem

1137
00:48:14,416 --> 00:48:16,833
approach to fisheries management which is

1138
00:48:16,833 --> 00:48:21,791
looking at the ocean ecosystem as a whole

1139
00:48:21,791 --> 00:48:24,291
making sure you know.

1140
00:48:24,708 --> 00:48:27,708
It's not just the target species and one

1141
00:48:27,708 --> 00:48:30,708
or two iconic bycatch species but really

1142
00:48:30,708 --> 00:48:32,625
looking at the whole thing which also

1143
00:48:32,625 --> 00:48:34,625
lets the scientists start to look at

1144
00:48:34,625 --> 00:48:37,833
impacts of climate change and you know.

1145
00:48:38,791 --> 00:48:41,875
Range moving or waters warming and

1146
00:48:41,875 --> 00:48:45,166
currents changing and again the tools are

1147
00:48:45,166 --> 00:48:48,458
getting better i would say as the times

1148
00:48:48,458 --> 00:48:52,166
are getting harder and it's which is

1149
00:48:52,166 --> 00:48:55,083
better than not having improved tools and

1150
00:48:55,083 --> 00:48:57,583
so you know the conversations that are

1151
00:48:57,583 --> 00:48:59,375
starting to happen around ecosystem

1152
00:48:59,375 --> 00:49:01,833
approach to fisheries management I are

1153
00:49:01,833 --> 00:49:03,333
are i think the next

1154
00:49:03,333 --> 00:49:05,458
frontier of what's exciting.

1155
00:49:06,375 --> 00:49:07,875
Amazing now i might be pushing the

1156
00:49:07,875 --> 00:49:10,166
envelope here at this next question so

1157
00:49:10,166 --> 00:49:12,750
please tell me if i if i am move you've

1158
00:49:12,750 --> 00:49:14,916
established such a huge milestone right

1159
00:49:14,916 --> 00:49:17,375
here like everybody together as a as a

1160
00:49:17,375 --> 00:49:19,500
collective has been able to hit this

1161
00:49:19,500 --> 00:49:21,166
milestone of almost a hundred percent

1162
00:49:21,166 --> 00:49:23,083
from stanley fish stocks.

1163
00:49:24,291 --> 00:49:26,041
What's the next major milestone that you

1164
00:49:26,041 --> 00:49:28,583
would like to see for tuna sustainability

1165
00:49:28,583 --> 00:49:30,208
now obviously you've mentioned a lot of

1166
00:49:30,208 --> 00:49:31,416
the technology and a lot of the tools

1167
00:49:31,416 --> 00:49:32,583
that could be coming out that could be

1168
00:49:32,583 --> 00:49:34,833
done better and could be installed and

1169
00:49:34,833 --> 00:49:36,666
implemented that could make things better

1170
00:49:36,666 --> 00:49:38,166
but what would you like to

1171
00:49:38,166 --> 00:49:40,291
see that that next milestone be?

1172
00:49:51,791 --> 00:49:52,500
What they've been

1173
00:49:52,500 --> 00:49:55,208
tested and proven you know.

1174
00:49:56,500 --> 00:49:58,583
The green part is to some extent the easy

1175
00:49:58,583 --> 00:50:00,291
part what happens when you get your

1176
00:50:00,291 --> 00:50:02,000
report card from the scientists that year

1177
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:07,458
yeah and it's not great right so so we

1178
00:50:07,458 --> 00:50:09,750
need to see they only have them

1179
00:50:09,750 --> 00:50:11,583
completely and then they

1180
00:50:11,583 --> 00:50:13,125
need to be tested and working.

1181
00:50:13,833 --> 00:50:15,791
Interesting okay i like that i like that

1182
00:50:15,791 --> 00:50:17,708
that's that's that's a big that's that's

1183
00:50:17,708 --> 00:50:18,625
a big milestone but i

1184
00:50:18,625 --> 00:50:19,458
think that's achievable.

1185
00:50:19,875 --> 00:50:23,125
I think it's always achievable right now

1186
00:50:23,125 --> 00:50:24,750
you know obviously listeners love this

1187
00:50:24,750 --> 00:50:26,333
type of this type of podcast i love to

1188
00:50:26,333 --> 00:50:28,208
hear hear the optimism like to see things

1189
00:50:28,208 --> 00:50:31,000
working you know if listeners remember

1190
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,041
just one thing in this conversation what

1191
00:50:33,041 --> 00:50:34,250
would you want it to be.

1192
00:50:34,250 --> 00:50:38,333
What would you like to see for the next

1193
00:50:38,333 --> 00:50:38,958
episode of tuna our awesome.

1194
00:50:39,541 --> 00:50:41,208
I love it yeah.

1195
00:50:43,791 --> 00:50:46,083
That is all yeah tuna are awesome I think

1196
00:50:46,083 --> 00:50:48,000
it's I think it's all yeah that's just I

1197
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:49,333
think it's awesome I think it's amazing.

1198
00:50:49,958 --> 00:50:52,041
And if people want to go and learn more

1199
00:50:52,041 --> 00:50:53,666
where would you like to like more about

1200
00:50:53,666 --> 00:50:56,791
the status of the stocks report and I've.

1201
00:50:56,833 --> 00:50:58,291
Got to analysis, work where would they go

1202
00:50:58,291 --> 00:51:00,291
to to get more information they would.

1203
00:51:00,500 --> 00:51:03,291
Go to our website which has a horrible

1204
00:51:03,291 --> 00:51:06,375
domain name and my son many years ago

1205
00:51:06,375 --> 00:51:08,458
told me it was a horrible 17,000 but it

1206
00:51:08,458 --> 00:51:12,333
is available so got um but if you google

1207
00:51:12,333 --> 00:51:16,208
this and tuna so, you don't get skeet

1208
00:51:16,208 --> 00:51:18,625
shooting or stainless steel you'll find

1209
00:51:18,625 --> 00:51:21,625
us and the website is

1210
00:51:21,625 --> 00:51:26,500
the specialty website.

1211
00:51:26,833 --> 00:51:28,250
We'll also put the link.

1212
00:51:28,250 --> 00:51:29,416
Yeah, you have to not make a typo

1213
00:51:29,583 --> 00:51:30,708
when you're trying to make a foundation.

1214
00:51:31,083 --> 00:51:31,666
Well, I'll make sure

1215
00:51:31,666 --> 00:51:32,333
I don't make the typo

1216
00:51:32,333 --> 00:51:33,583
when I put in the description

1217
00:51:34,416 --> 00:51:35,833
so people can access the

1218
00:51:35,833 --> 00:51:37,000
link from there as well.

1219
00:51:37,625 --> 00:51:38,625
Susan, this is awesome.

1220
00:51:38,625 --> 00:51:40,000
I'm looking forward to having you back on

1221
00:51:40,083 --> 00:51:42,583
to discuss more or someone from ISSF

1222
00:51:42,583 --> 00:51:44,208
to talk more about fisheries,

1223
00:51:44,208 --> 00:51:44,791
more about it in the

1224
00:51:44,791 --> 00:51:45,625
programs that are happening.

1225
00:51:46,208 --> 00:51:47,125
We really appreciate the

1226
00:51:47,125 --> 00:51:48,500
work that you guys have done

1227
00:51:48,500 --> 00:51:51,125
over the years and to get to this point.

1228
00:51:51,500 --> 00:51:52,125
And we're looking forward

1229
00:51:52,125 --> 00:51:53,458
to seeing that next milestone

1230
00:51:53,750 --> 00:51:55,666
and more technology being

1231
00:51:55,666 --> 00:51:58,291
applied to get better results.

1232
00:51:58,291 --> 00:51:59,166
So even better results

1233
00:51:59,166 --> 00:52:00,250
than what we have now,

1234
00:52:00,250 --> 00:52:00,791
which is amazing.

1235
00:52:01,083 --> 00:52:02,208
So thank you so much, Susan,

1236
00:52:02,208 --> 00:52:03,125
for joining us on the podcast.

1237
00:52:03,625 --> 00:52:04,250
Thank you.

1238
00:52:04,291 --> 00:52:05,000
Thank you, Susan, for

1239
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:06,291
joining us on today's episode

1240
00:52:06,458 --> 00:52:07,166
with the "How to

1241
00:52:07,166 --> 00:52:08,083
Protect the Ocean" podcast.

1242
00:52:08,791 --> 00:52:12,166
That was my conversation from...

1243
00:52:14,333 --> 00:52:14,916
There's a lot to take

1244
00:52:14,916 --> 00:52:16,458
away from this episode,

1245
00:52:16,458 --> 00:52:17,708
but here's the big one.

1246
00:52:18,166 --> 00:52:18,708
Ocean conservation

1247
00:52:18,708 --> 00:52:20,416
works when science, policy,

1248
00:52:20,416 --> 00:52:22,208
and industry actually align,

1249
00:52:22,750 --> 00:52:24,000
which is great to see.

1250
00:52:24,541 --> 00:52:28,166
And this isn't just a story about tuna.

1251
00:52:28,166 --> 00:52:29,916
It's a case study on how

1252
00:52:29,916 --> 00:52:33,000
long-term coordinated effort

1253
00:52:33,291 --> 00:52:36,500
can turn around global...

1254
00:52:38,208 --> 00:52:40,875
This isn't just a

1255
00:52:40,875 --> 00:52:42,166
story about tuna fishing.

1256
00:52:42,916 --> 00:52:44,375
It's a case study in how

1257
00:52:44,375 --> 00:52:46,375
long-term coordinated effort

1258
00:52:46,666 --> 00:52:48,583
can turn around global

1259
00:52:48,583 --> 00:52:49,666
environmental changes.

1260
00:52:51,083 --> 00:52:58,708
But it also shows that progress depends

1261
00:52:58,708 --> 00:53:00,541
on continued accountability,

1262
00:53:01,041 --> 00:53:02,291
data, and enforcement.

1263
00:53:02,791 --> 00:53:05,208
If we stop paying attention, things can

1264
00:53:05,208 --> 00:53:07,000
slide backwards very quickly.

1265
00:53:07,583 --> 00:53:08,291
And if you found this...

1266
00:53:09,750 --> 00:53:11,041
So that's the episode for today.

1267
00:53:11,041 --> 00:53:13,000
I really appreciate you joining us.

1268
00:53:13,208 --> 00:53:14,333
If you have any questions or

1269
00:53:14,333 --> 00:53:15,333
comments on all the episodes

1270
00:53:15,333 --> 00:53:16,000
that you've listened to

1271
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:17,875
this week on tuna fishing

1272
00:53:18,125 --> 00:53:20,416
and where the fisheries industry is at,

1273
00:53:20,416 --> 00:53:21,916
I would love to hear from you.

1274
00:53:22,250 --> 00:53:26,166
Just hit me up at speakupforblue.com

1275
00:53:26,166 --> 00:53:27,291
forward slash feedback.

1276
00:53:27,541 --> 00:53:29,875
You can either leave a voicemail or you

1277
00:53:29,875 --> 00:53:32,250
can leave a written comment, question,

1278
00:53:32,250 --> 00:53:33,166
whatever that might be.

1279
00:53:33,458 --> 00:53:34,500
I would love to hear from you because

1280
00:53:34,500 --> 00:53:35,708
this is the beginning of a conversation.

1281
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:37,416
We started this conversation this week,

1282
00:53:37,625 --> 00:53:38,916
but I would love to continue that over

1283
00:53:38,916 --> 00:53:40,333
the weekend and in the next few weeks.

1284
00:53:40,750 --> 00:53:41,416
Let's talk fishing.

1285
00:53:41,791 --> 00:53:42,583
Let's talk tuna fishing.

1286
00:53:43,166 --> 00:53:45,000
Questions or comments speakupforblue.com

1287
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:45,958
forward slash feedback.

1288
00:53:47,375 --> 00:53:51,583
If you found this episode valuable and

1289
00:53:51,583 --> 00:53:52,916
you haven't followed

1290
00:53:52,916 --> 00:53:54,208
the podcast yet, hit that

1291
00:53:54,208 --> 00:53:54,791
follow button.

1292
00:53:54,791 --> 00:53:56,166
And if you think that there is somebody

1293
00:53:56,166 --> 00:53:56,958
that might have

1294
00:53:56,958 --> 00:53:58,708
questions about tuna fishing or

1295
00:53:58,708 --> 00:54:00,333
is wondering where they should buy their

1296
00:54:00,333 --> 00:54:01,750
tuna from or want to

1297
00:54:01,750 --> 00:54:02,708
know more information about

1298
00:54:02,750 --> 00:54:05,166
tuna, send them this episode or the

1299
00:54:05,166 --> 00:54:06,166
episodes from the earlier

1300
00:54:06,166 --> 00:54:06,916
this week that you've been

1301
00:54:06,916 --> 00:54:09,125
listening to so they can take part and

1302
00:54:09,125 --> 00:54:09,875
they can start joining

1303
00:54:09,875 --> 00:54:10,875
the conversation as well.

1304
00:54:11,083 --> 00:54:12,375
I want to thank you so much for listening

1305
00:54:12,375 --> 00:54:14,000
to this episode of the How to Protect the

1306
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:14,458
Ocean podcast.

1307
00:54:14,958 --> 00:54:16,000
I'm your host, Andrew Loewen.

1308
00:54:16,083 --> 00:54:16,666
Have a great day.

1309
00:54:16,666 --> 00:54:17,208
We'll talk to you next

1310
00:54:17,208 --> 00:54:18,666
time and happy conservation.

1311
00:54:19,916 --> 00:54:21,500
I want to thank Susan Jackson for joining

1312
00:54:21,500 --> 00:54:23,000
us on today's episode, looking forward to

1313
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:24,291
having her back very shortly.

1314
00:54:24,791 --> 00:54:26,291
And I want to thank you for listening to

1315
00:54:26,291 --> 00:54:27,333
this episode of the How to

1316
00:54:27,333 --> 00:54:28,291
Protect the Ocean podcast.

1317
00:54:28,666 --> 00:54:29,666
I am your host, Andrew Loewen.

1318
00:54:29,666 --> 00:54:30,333
Have a great day.

1319
00:54:30,333 --> 00:54:30,875
We'll talk to you next

1320
00:54:30,875 --> 00:54:32,250
time and happy conservation.