Prevent Overfishing: How Transparency Can Save the Ocean

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One of the biggest things that I feel

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like gets overlooked

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a lot is overfishing.

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The health of our ocean, you alluded to

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it when you're talking about overfishing,

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it's really under pressure and it's under

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pressure from intensive human activity.

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But despite all of that activity that's

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going on, the ocean's the

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least observed part of our planet.

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We really don't have a good clue or a

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good sense of what's happening.

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And that means that decision makers,

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they're not getting access to the timely

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information that they need

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to manage and protect the ocean.

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How do we combat

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overfishing on a global scale?

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This has been a question that's been on

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the books for a long time.

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And the big thing is transparency,

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knowing where fishing vessels go, where

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they're at and how is track

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throughout the supply chain.

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You know, that's a big, big problem.

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But just tracking fishing vessels is one

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of the biggest problems

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and challenges around it.

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24 study led by Global Fishing Watch, who

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we're going to be interviewing today,

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showed that 75 percent of industrial

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fishing fleets are not tracked.

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That is a dangerous number.

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So I have Courtney Farthing, who is the

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director of international policy at the

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Global Fishing Watch, who is here to talk

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about how we've tracked fisheries and how

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we track fishing vessels and how

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important transparency is

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to the Global Fishing Watch.

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And we're going to be talking about that

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on this episode of the How

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to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey, everybody, welcome back to another

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exciting episode of the How

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to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

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And this is the podcast where you find

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out what's happening with the ocean, how

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you can speak up for the ocean and what

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you can do to live for a

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better ocean by taking action.

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Now, in today's episode, we're going to

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be talking to Courtney Farthing from the

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Global Fishing Watch.

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She is the international policy director

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based in London, but Global Fishing Watch

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have their employees or

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staff all over the world.

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This is what makes them

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such an effective organization.

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They've only been around for about 10

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years and they have become a major player

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in helping countries deal with

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transparency, looking at data operations

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and how interoperable they are and making

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sure everybody's on the same standard as

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well as tracking where the money goes.

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Who profits from ocean fishing?

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Like, that's really

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what it comes down to.

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Now, that is more of a challenging thing

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that we talked about later on.

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But looking at, you know, tracking

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transparency and fishing vessels is a

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huge, huge important part of the Global

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Fishing Watch's mission.

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And they are working with countries to

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help that, especially using technology.

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Courtney talks about the 2025 our oceans

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conference that happened in South Korea

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recently and talks about what Global

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Fishing Watch wanted to accomplish,

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talking about digital oceans, talking

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about technology and transparency.

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And then how that international

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conference leads into the UN Ocean Decade

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Conference that happens in June this

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2025. So we're going to talk a lot of

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things. We're going to go fishing vessel

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tracking transparency.

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We're going to be talking about who

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profits. We're going to be talking about

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some of the challenges that are faced and

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some of the successes that we've had, as

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well as international conferences and how

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important they are

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all on today's episode.

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So here is Courtney Farthing talking

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about transparency in fishing. Enjoy the

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interview and we'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Courtney, welcome to the How to

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Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready

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to talk about global fishing?

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Hi, Andrew. Yes, definitely. Thank you so

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much for having me. I'm

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really excited to be here.

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I am very excited because look, we know

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Oceans Day is coming up. Ocean's week is

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coming up. There's a lot to talk about

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when we talk when we talk about oceans.

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But one of the biggest things that I feel

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like gets overlooked a lot, even though

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it's on the back of people's minds in the

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public, in the general public, is

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overfishing and overfishing.

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What are the causes? We've seen

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documentaries on there before that

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haven't been too great. And there's a lot

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of data out there to

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show what's happening.

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But in the general public, we just we

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blame fishermen in the fishing community

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overall. And there's obviously

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separation. There's a

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lot of nuances in that.

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But when it really comes to global

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fishing and looking at the problems over

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fishing and addressing it, we really want

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to look at transparency.

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And that's what we're going to be talking

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about today. So I'm super, super excited.

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Before we get into all that, though,

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Courtney, why don't you just let us know

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who you are and what you do.

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Yeah, thanks so much, Andrew. Yeah, and

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thanks again for having me. My name is

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Courtney Farthing. I'm the International

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Policy Director at Global Fishing Watch.

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I've been with the organization just over

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five years and working in this space for

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a little over a decade, always on

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international and regional fisheries

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policies, negotiations.

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I studied this at university and really

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have been interested in it since I was a

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young child. So yeah, really happy to be

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here talking about it today.

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That's awesome. What made like since a

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young child, like for fishing, like what

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made you interested? Did you grow up in a

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fishing community or like what made you

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interested in fishing in general?

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Yeah, it's a really good question. I

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think that probably a lot of people, my

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generation that are British would have

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the same answer. There was this TV series

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led by David Attenborough, a TV presenter

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here in the UK called Blue Planet.

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Yes. Probably I was five or six and it

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just, you know, shook my little five or

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six year old world. I got the coffee

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table book for the images. I was obsessed

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and that obsession

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never really went away.

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I mean, David Attenborough has that that

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effect on people too, right? And I think

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he still has that effect even though he's

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what and is well into his nineties. I

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think he's ninety nine. I think I saw.

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Yeah, I'm not sure

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late nineties for sure.

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Yeah, late nineties for sure. Unreal. But

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he's been definitely a pioneer in getting

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people interested in oceans and in

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fishing. And Blue Planet is such a great,

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great experience. Blue Planet two was

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even better. It just

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gets better and better.

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Yeah, for sure. Now you work for a global

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fishing watch and some of our members

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know, like some of our audience knows who

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global fishing watches. Some of them

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don't. Can you just kind of let us know,

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you know, what global

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fishing does and why?

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Yeah. Yeah. And I thank you so much for

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the opportunity to introduce the

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organization. So I guess the context

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really, I'll start by saying that, you

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know, the health of our ocean, you

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alluded to it when you're talking about

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overfishing. It's really under pressure

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and it's under pressure from intense.

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So if human activity, but despite all of

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that activity that's going on, the

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oceans, the least observed part of our

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planet, we really don't have a good clue

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or a good sense of what's happening.

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And that means that decision makers,

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they're not getting access to the timely

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information that they need to manage and

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protect the ocean. So global fishing

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watches, an international nonprofit that

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was born out of, I guess, frustration at

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trying to address those challenges.

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Our purpose is to transform the way that

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the ocean is managed. We want to kind of

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take the business as usual closed

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patchwork governance system and flip it

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on its head to deliver an open,

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transparent global system.

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And, you know, we're dedicated to doing

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that by increasing the level of

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transparency of human activity at sea.

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What that means in reality is that we

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create data and tools that we share

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publicly to support anybody in the

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decision making process, know more about,

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you know, what's going on and have as

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much publicly available information as

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possible at their fingertips for free.

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That's awesome. I mean, transparency is

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such an important term, right? It's it's

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it's something that we need to see more

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of it. We talk a lot about transparency.

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We talk a lot about what that actually

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means, where it actually gets implemented

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and how it gets implemented.

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Governments talk about transparency a

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lot. But if you think about it, a lot of

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times governments aren't transparent with

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a lot of things. And so what is

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transparency mean in specifically for

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global fishing watch?

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So we believe essentially that all of the

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activity that goes on on the high seas,

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that's those areas outside of a country's

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national waters. That's a common

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resource. And so therefore activity,

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those activities should be common

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knowledge because of

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this common resource.

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So Global Fishing Watch defines

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transparency as making information

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available and accessible to everyone that

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it affects. And that definition is pretty

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broad. It's based on one from the United

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Nations. And we really focus on ocean and

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vessel data transparency.

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As you say, there's a whole range of

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interpretations that it can be used for.

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But we're looking at ocean and vessel

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data, the policies and the decision

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making processes that govern those data.

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And we believe that all of this

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information should be available and

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accessible to everyone with a stake in

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what happens to that resource.

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That could be the fishing community, the

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local community experiencing secondhand

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impacts from high seas fishing, the

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researchers investigating trends or the

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general public who just want to see a

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sustainable future

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for future generations.

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That's amazing. It's so, like I said,

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it's so important to have transparency,

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but not everybody uses transparency. Like

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that's not a common thing in in fishing. There are some there are some tools that we can use, but it's not a common thing.

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We'll discuss, you know, how we figured

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01:09:21,416 --> 01:09:24,250
that out in the future in in in in this

274
01:09:24,250 --> 01:09:26,916
interview. But what what steps do you

275
01:09:26,916 --> 01:09:30,083
think people can take or that that just

276
01:09:30,083 --> 01:09:33,041
ocean governance in general can take so

277
01:09:33,041 --> 01:09:35,791
that we can get more towards, you know,

278
01:09:36,250 --> 01:09:38,250
putting in putting transparency to

279
01:09:38,250 --> 01:09:39,958
becoming more of the standard rather than the exception when you talk about ocean governance in general.

280
01:09:39,958 --> 01:09:45,666
Yeah, I think there are two main things.

281
01:09:45,666 --> 01:09:47,333
Firstly, we need to increase the amount

282
01:09:47,333 --> 01:09:49,375
of transparent data. People need to be

283
01:09:49,375 --> 01:09:51,291
publishing things like their vessel

284
01:09:51,291 --> 01:09:53,791
tracking information, the identity of the

285
01:09:53,791 --> 01:09:55,916
vessels, where they're authorized to

286
01:09:55,916 --> 01:09:59,083
operate, who the owners are. And this is

287
01:09:59,083 --> 01:10:01,958
becoming increasingly available. But the

288
01:10:01,958 --> 01:10:03,625
second thing that we need is policies to

289
01:10:03,625 --> 01:10:05,666
regulate that and to require that. And

290
01:10:05,666 --> 01:10:07,500
that really needs to be strengthened.

291
01:10:08,166 --> 01:10:08,958
We're seeing a pretty massive impact on the data.

292
01:10:08,958 --> 01:10:10,583
And we're seeing a pretty massive shift,

293
01:10:10,583 --> 01:10:12,666
I would say, in attitudes towards

294
01:10:12,666 --> 01:10:14,750
transparency of ocean and fisheries data.

295
01:10:15,458 --> 01:10:16,833
From our perspective at Global Fishing

296
01:10:16,833 --> 01:10:18,708
Watch, we're seeing our countries coming

297
01:10:18,708 --> 01:10:21,416
to us and asking how they can share more

298
01:10:21,416 --> 01:10:23,291
information as they start to see and

299
01:10:23,291 --> 01:10:26,000
experience the benefits that that public

300
01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:27,083
information brings them.

301
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:30,125
And in a really kind of pivotal moment

302
01:10:30,125 --> 01:10:32,541
for ocean transparency at the end of last

303
01:10:32,541 --> 01:10:35,625
year, United Nations adopted through

304
01:10:35,625 --> 01:10:37,916
consensus. So everybody agreed, which is

305
01:10:37,916 --> 01:10:40,916
pretty unusual and assembly resolution

306
01:10:40,916 --> 01:10:43,625
that features text specifically on

307
01:10:43,625 --> 01:10:44,583
transparency and fisheries,

308
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:47,375
recognizes the role that transparency has

309
01:10:47,375 --> 01:10:49,750
to play in sustainable fishing practices,

310
01:10:50,333 --> 01:10:52,416
and it urges countries and international

311
01:10:52,416 --> 01:10:55,000
bodies to consider ways that they can

312
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:56,833
better integrate transparent practices.

313
01:10:57,333 --> 01:10:59,916
So it's really brilliant progress, but

314
01:10:59,916 --> 01:11:01,666
we've still got quite a way to go.

315
01:11:02,041 --> 01:11:04,291
And so we really need to see fishing

316
01:11:04,291 --> 01:11:06,208
nations publishing their vessel

317
01:11:06,208 --> 01:11:08,083
registries. That's who they allow to

318
01:11:08,083 --> 01:11:12,000
fish, including the details on who's

319
01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:13,583
actually benefiting from those fishing

320
01:11:13,583 --> 01:11:15,291
operations, not just who's working on the

321
01:11:15,291 --> 01:11:17,583
vessels, but who's profiting from the

322
01:11:17,583 --> 01:11:18,416
operations, the

323
01:11:18,416 --> 01:11:19,750
ultimate beneficial owner.

324
01:11:45,958 --> 01:11:51,625
And that gives everyone information on what the vessels allowed to do, where and who's benefiting. So we're seeing a shift in attitudes and

325
01:11:51,625 --> 01:11:53,583
more and more vessels publish their

326
01:11:53,583 --> 01:11:56,333
tracking data. And if we have these

327
01:11:56,333 --> 01:11:59,166
policies in place, those changes can

328
01:11:59,166 --> 01:12:01,750
withstand changes in government, changes

329
01:12:01,750 --> 01:12:04,250
in personnel, the rules already written

330
01:12:04,250 --> 01:12:06,625
and countries can also

331
01:12:06,625 --> 01:12:09,416
improve them over time and

332
01:12:11,958 --> 01:12:27,125
over time. When we're talking about what

333
01:12:27,125 --> 01:12:29,333
we're talking about, the information is

334
01:12:29,333 --> 01:12:33,500
low level. So we're talking about ie, the

335
01:12:33,500 --> 01:12:34,291
cost of writing textbooks,oof, Isa at the diver, three or etc.isons. Maybe not what you're discussing now. So they look at policy lifefacking, if you're going to recover, partnered with a company you own a business with coupon secrets program is

336
01:12:34,291 --> 01:12:34,708
only getting real, appleamb

337
01:12:34,750 --> 01:12:37,041
to other nonprofit organizations

338
01:12:37,291 --> 01:12:38,791
or non-governmental organizations,

339
01:12:38,791 --> 01:12:39,833
just more within that

340
01:12:39,833 --> 01:12:41,416
country, it's within there.

341
01:12:41,833 --> 01:12:42,125
Yeah.

342
01:12:42,666 --> 01:12:43,791
And then there's probably other countries

343
01:12:43,791 --> 01:12:44,958
who aren't tracking a

344
01:12:44,958 --> 01:12:45,791
lot of their phishing,

345
01:12:45,791 --> 01:12:46,666
just in general, they may

346
01:12:46,666 --> 01:12:47,583
not have the technology,

347
01:12:47,583 --> 01:12:48,666
they may not have the ability,

348
01:12:48,666 --> 01:12:51,250
or it's just not in their practices

349
01:12:51,583 --> 01:12:53,458
or in their traditional practices, right?

350
01:12:53,708 --> 01:12:54,791
So there's a lot of different,

351
01:12:55,291 --> 01:12:56,291
I mean, there's so many countries

352
01:12:56,458 --> 01:12:57,791
you're probably dealing with.

353
01:12:58,208 --> 01:12:59,833
It's probably a lot

354
01:12:59,833 --> 01:13:01,000
of different cultures,

355
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:02,000
different people, different

356
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:02,791
countries around the world

357
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:03,958
who are just like, we

358
01:13:03,958 --> 01:13:05,333
just never thought of that.

359
01:13:05,791 --> 01:13:06,500
How important is this

360
01:13:06,500 --> 01:13:07,958
for Global Fishing Watch

361
01:13:08,125 --> 01:13:10,000
to be able to work

362
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:11,833
with countries like that

363
01:13:12,333 --> 01:13:13,250
to say, "Hey, look,

364
01:13:13,250 --> 01:13:14,166
this is what we've seen

365
01:13:14,166 --> 01:13:15,416
around the world that's been working.

366
01:13:16,791 --> 01:13:17,708
Are you interested too, especially

367
01:13:17,708 --> 01:13:19,041
countries coming to you

368
01:13:19,041 --> 01:13:20,125
saying, I mean, it must feel good

369
01:13:20,375 --> 01:13:20,875
that countries are

370
01:13:20,875 --> 01:13:21,916
coming to you and being like,

371
01:13:21,916 --> 01:13:23,541
"Hey, how do we implement this?"

372
01:13:23,750 --> 01:13:25,125
But how do you work with those countries

373
01:13:25,125 --> 01:13:26,000
when they come to you?

374
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:26,833
I assume you don't go to

375
01:13:26,833 --> 01:13:27,875
them, they come to you,

376
01:13:28,083 --> 01:13:29,500
and then you work with them.

377
01:13:29,500 --> 01:13:30,166
Is that how it works?

378
01:13:31,083 --> 01:13:32,833
Yeah, I guess it's a little bit of both.

379
01:13:33,083 --> 01:13:33,791
Global Fishing Watch,

380
01:13:34,916 --> 01:13:36,125
through all of our research

381
01:13:36,333 --> 01:13:37,625
and the great innovation

382
01:13:37,625 --> 01:13:39,500
teams work that we have,

383
01:13:39,500 --> 01:13:40,791
we were able to identify

384
01:13:40,791 --> 01:13:42,916
perhaps where the challenges are,

385
01:13:43,291 --> 01:13:44,416
where there is a lot of

386
01:13:44,416 --> 01:13:45,541
tracking information already

387
01:13:45,791 --> 01:13:47,416
and therefore where there maybe isn't.

388
01:13:47,666 --> 01:13:48,291
And we might make

389
01:13:48,291 --> 01:13:49,583
approaches to those countries

390
01:13:49,791 --> 01:13:51,916
and find out, are there challenges

391
01:13:51,916 --> 01:13:52,833
that are preventing them

392
01:13:52,833 --> 01:13:54,500
from using these systems?

393
01:13:54,916 --> 01:13:55,916
Is it a cost issue?

394
01:13:55,916 --> 01:13:56,958
Is it a resource issue?

395
01:13:57,500 --> 01:13:58,708
And similarly, we get

396
01:13:58,708 --> 01:13:59,958
approached by countries

397
01:14:01,041 --> 01:14:03,166
for specific issues and we might help

398
01:14:03,166 --> 01:14:04,375
them with that specific issue

399
01:14:04,375 --> 01:14:05,833
and then broaden our

400
01:14:05,833 --> 01:14:07,000
program of work together

401
01:14:07,166 --> 01:14:09,250
to look at the bigger picture over time.

402
01:14:10,583 --> 01:14:11,708
But yeah, there is these

403
01:14:11,708 --> 01:14:12,916
different systems in place

404
01:14:13,041 --> 01:14:15,416
in terms of vessel tracking and the more

405
01:14:15,416 --> 01:14:16,875
traditional one is closed.

406
01:14:17,458 --> 01:14:19,375
There is an open one that has

407
01:14:19,375 --> 01:14:21,666
historically been used for safety at sea

408
01:14:21,708 --> 01:14:23,458
that's becoming increasingly common to

409
01:14:23,458 --> 01:14:27,958
use as part of a tool of options

410
01:14:28,125 --> 01:14:28,958
for fisheries management.

411
01:14:29,250 --> 01:14:30,875
And we're really seeing people embrace

412
01:14:30,875 --> 01:14:31,916
that more than ever.

413
01:14:32,750 --> 01:14:35,583
Amazing. Now, the Our Oceans Conference,

414
01:14:35,583 --> 01:14:36,750
the 2025 Oceans Conference,

415
01:14:36,750 --> 01:14:39,333
just finished up earlier this month.

416
01:14:39,875 --> 01:14:41,916
And it was in Busan, I think I'm

417
01:14:41,916 --> 01:14:43,791
pronouncing that properly, South Korea.

418
01:14:44,083 --> 01:14:46,500
Good. Now, one of the themes of the

419
01:14:46,500 --> 01:14:47,958
conference was digital oceans.

420
01:14:48,250 --> 01:14:50,416
Now, this seems to play right into what

421
01:14:50,416 --> 01:14:51,250
we're talking about here

422
01:14:51,250 --> 01:14:52,500
in terms of transparency,

423
01:14:52,500 --> 01:14:54,375
in terms of making it available to people

424
01:14:54,375 --> 01:14:56,833
technology plays a huge role in that

425
01:14:56,875 --> 01:14:58,500
in terms of tracking vessels and making

426
01:14:58,500 --> 01:15:01,041
it public databases and so forth.

427
01:15:01,041 --> 01:15:04,416
And we're in a bit of a revolution in

428
01:15:04,416 --> 01:15:05,625
terms like a digital revolution

429
01:15:05,625 --> 01:15:06,250
where we're starting to

430
01:15:06,250 --> 01:15:08,166
see more of that available.

431
01:15:08,500 --> 01:15:10,166
But there's still that open question of,

432
01:15:10,166 --> 01:15:12,708
you know, the role of technology

433
01:15:13,791 --> 01:15:16,083
that has been delivering to deliver more

434
01:15:16,083 --> 01:15:16,666
sustainable and

435
01:15:16,666 --> 01:15:18,125
transparent ocean governance.

436
01:15:18,125 --> 01:15:20,416
So how do you see technology fitting in

437
01:15:20,416 --> 01:15:22,083
and delivering good ocean governance,

438
01:15:22,083 --> 01:15:23,041
especially when it's

439
01:15:23,041 --> 01:15:24,500
referring to transparency?

440
01:15:25,875 --> 01:15:27,833
Yeah, I mean, lots of people obviously

441
01:15:27,833 --> 01:15:29,125
think technology is going to solve all

442
01:15:29,125 --> 01:15:30,500
problems everywhere.

443
01:15:30,750 --> 01:15:31,666
And that's certainly not

444
01:15:31,666 --> 01:15:33,125
Global Fishing Watch's position.

445
01:15:33,958 --> 01:15:36,500
Technology is crucial, essentially, for

446
01:15:36,500 --> 01:15:38,000
helping people to be more effective.

447
01:15:38,625 --> 01:15:40,333
It's not something that's going to solve

448
01:15:40,333 --> 01:15:41,708
the issues on its own.

449
01:15:41,708 --> 01:15:43,125
It's always about giving more

450
01:15:43,125 --> 01:15:45,875
information, better information, more

451
01:15:45,875 --> 01:15:47,750
succinct information to people.

452
01:15:48,750 --> 01:15:53,500
So, for example, you might have a foreign

453
01:15:53,500 --> 01:15:56,208
vessel request entry into a port.

454
01:15:56,500 --> 01:15:58,958
So, say, Canadian vessels are in Canada

455
01:15:58,958 --> 01:16:00,333
requesting entry into UK

456
01:16:00,333 --> 01:16:01,666
waters as I'm here in London.

457
01:16:02,083 --> 01:16:02,291
Right.

458
01:16:03,208 --> 01:16:05,083
And the UK authorities might want more

459
01:16:05,083 --> 01:16:06,541
information about what

460
01:16:06,541 --> 01:16:07,541
that vessel has been doing.

461
01:16:08,166 --> 01:16:09,541
They have two options, really.

462
01:16:09,833 --> 01:16:11,333
They can ask the vessel

463
01:16:11,333 --> 01:16:13,208
operator and take their word.

464
01:16:13,875 --> 01:16:15,458
If they're not sure of some information

465
01:16:15,458 --> 01:16:17,625
missing, they can contact the Canadian

466
01:16:17,625 --> 01:16:19,041
authorities and ask them

467
01:16:19,041 --> 01:16:20,791
to fact check, basically.

468
01:16:21,833 --> 01:16:23,625
And traditionally, you know, you might

469
01:16:23,625 --> 01:16:26,125
have a notebook that has a list of people

470
01:16:26,125 --> 01:16:28,708
handwritten with a phone number of fax

471
01:16:28,708 --> 01:16:30,375
information, email address.

472
01:16:30,916 --> 01:16:32,833
Yeah. And that pretty quickly becomes

473
01:16:32,833 --> 01:16:34,416
outdated and unhelpful.

474
01:16:34,416 --> 01:16:36,750
People change jobs and, you know, is that

475
01:16:36,750 --> 01:16:37,583
a three or an eight?

476
01:16:37,583 --> 01:16:39,250
I don't know. And technology

477
01:16:39,250 --> 01:16:41,291
helps you to fix that problem.

478
01:16:42,583 --> 01:16:45,166
There is this really potentially

479
01:16:45,166 --> 01:16:48,083
transformative tool called the Global

480
01:16:48,083 --> 01:16:50,416
Record, which is a UN initiative.

481
01:16:50,666 --> 01:16:52,875
It's an international transparent

482
01:16:52,875 --> 01:16:55,000
database of vessel records.

483
01:16:55,625 --> 01:16:57,250
And that would provide a single source of

484
01:16:57,250 --> 01:16:59,625
information with all of that in it.

485
01:17:00,458 --> 01:17:01,916
And if countries keep that information up

486
01:17:01,916 --> 01:17:04,500
to date, then your notebooks, obviously,

487
01:17:04,833 --> 01:17:05,791
and who you need to

488
01:17:05,791 --> 01:17:07,208
contact is very clear.

489
01:17:07,833 --> 01:17:08,041
Yeah.

490
01:17:08,916 --> 01:17:11,333
Another example. It makes it faster for

491
01:17:11,333 --> 01:17:12,541
people to connect because you can just

492
01:17:12,541 --> 01:17:15,125
almost automate that process to like, if

493
01:17:15,125 --> 01:17:16,666
I don't know who this Canadian vessel is,

494
01:17:16,666 --> 01:17:17,833
I don't have as much information.

495
01:17:18,500 --> 01:17:20,208
An email could trigger to be sent right

496
01:17:20,208 --> 01:17:22,083
to the authorities in Canada to be like,

497
01:17:22,083 --> 01:17:23,916
oh, so Coast Guard is like, yes, no, we

498
01:17:23,916 --> 01:17:24,875
know this vessel and this

499
01:17:24,875 --> 01:17:25,791
is here's the information.

500
01:17:26,375 --> 01:17:27,916
Boom, updated. It works

501
01:17:27,916 --> 01:17:29,708
seamlessly, right? Exactly.

502
01:17:30,041 --> 01:17:31,958
And there's like less opportunity for

503
01:17:31,958 --> 01:17:33,500
misinterpretation because you're coming

504
01:17:33,500 --> 01:17:35,833
at it from the same underlying data.

505
01:17:35,875 --> 01:17:36,625
So in that way,

506
01:17:36,625 --> 01:17:37,833
technology is really helpful.

507
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:41,500
Another example that springs to mind is a

508
01:17:41,500 --> 01:17:44,000
vessel might show, you know, your

509
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:45,625
Canadian vessel, it would be unusual, but

510
01:17:45,625 --> 01:17:47,375
your Canadian vessel might tell me in the

511
01:17:47,375 --> 01:17:49,333
UK that they're authorized to fish for

512
01:17:49,333 --> 01:17:51,208
the tuna in the Pacific Ocean.

513
01:17:51,666 --> 01:17:54,125
Right. But I have access to transparent

514
01:17:54,125 --> 01:17:55,041
tracking information.

515
01:17:55,375 --> 01:17:57,000
And so I can see actually, OK, this

516
01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:58,458
vessel was recently

517
01:17:58,458 --> 01:17:59,500
fishing in the Indian Ocean.

518
01:17:59,875 --> 01:18:02,958
So I authorized to the Indian Ocean or is

519
01:18:02,958 --> 01:18:03,958
there an issue here?

520
01:18:03,958 --> 01:18:06,166
And technology allows you to very rapidly

521
01:18:06,166 --> 01:18:08,208
pull together all of the different

522
01:18:08,208 --> 01:18:10,333
sources related to that specific vessel

523
01:18:10,333 --> 01:18:12,875
and cross check as well as highlighting

524
01:18:12,875 --> 01:18:14,916
who the owner of the vessel is.

525
01:18:15,375 --> 01:18:17,416
So you have the transparency of the data,

526
01:18:17,750 --> 01:18:19,208
the technology, pulling together all

527
01:18:19,208 --> 01:18:21,500
these different sources and allowing you

528
01:18:21,500 --> 01:18:22,458
as the user to choose

529
01:18:22,458 --> 01:18:23,666
where to dig deeper.

530
01:18:24,500 --> 01:18:26,750
Good governance can only be delivered by

531
01:18:26,750 --> 01:18:27,708
the authorities, as we

532
01:18:27,708 --> 01:18:28,541
said, it's the people.

533
01:18:29,166 --> 01:18:31,083
Right. It's the people having access to

534
01:18:31,083 --> 01:18:33,875
that information and saying, ah, OK, this

535
01:18:33,875 --> 01:18:34,875
owner is problematic.

536
01:18:35,333 --> 01:18:36,375
We've had an issue with this owner

537
01:18:36,375 --> 01:18:38,666
before. Yes, we need to investigate

538
01:18:38,666 --> 01:18:40,833
further or this vessel.

539
01:18:41,416 --> 01:18:42,875
It actually is authorized to

540
01:18:42,875 --> 01:18:44,083
operate in the Indian Ocean.

541
01:18:44,083 --> 01:18:45,708
It's just that this database hasn't been

542
01:18:45,708 --> 01:18:47,625
updated yet, but these other four have

543
01:18:47,625 --> 01:18:48,708
and therefore don't

544
01:18:48,708 --> 01:18:49,875
need to do anything else.

545
01:18:50,375 --> 01:18:52,958
It's just it's not realistic that these

546
01:18:52,958 --> 01:18:55,666
deep dives will be made out on every

547
01:18:55,666 --> 01:18:56,750
single fisheries decision.

548
01:18:57,041 --> 01:18:58,875
Countries just don't have the resources

549
01:18:58,875 --> 01:19:01,541
that transparency and technology, they

550
01:19:01,541 --> 01:19:03,250
allow people to be more effective in

551
01:19:03,250 --> 01:19:04,250
choosing where those

552
01:19:04,250 --> 01:19:05,666
resources get allocated.

553
01:19:06,250 --> 01:19:08,333
One and also like the speed at which

554
01:19:08,333 --> 01:19:10,791
decisions can be made to obviously having

555
01:19:10,791 --> 01:19:12,750
multiple databases from each country and

556
01:19:12,750 --> 01:19:15,166
not integrating them as it's a problem

557
01:19:15,166 --> 01:19:16,916
which can be changed.

558
01:19:16,958 --> 01:19:19,208
We know that now, but also the speed at

559
01:19:19,208 --> 01:19:20,708
which, like, you know, we're talking, you

560
01:19:20,708 --> 01:19:22,875
know, our example before was, you know, a

561
01:19:22,875 --> 01:19:24,500
legal example where it's like just, you

562
01:19:24,500 --> 01:19:26,125
know, people coming into a different port

563
01:19:26,125 --> 01:19:27,625
but may not have the information that

564
01:19:27,625 --> 01:19:28,625
happens all the time.

565
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:30,833
And so it automatically gets updated.

566
01:19:30,833 --> 01:19:32,291
Boom, no problem. But when you have a

567
01:19:32,291 --> 01:19:34,416
legal fishing happen and then you have

568
01:19:34,416 --> 01:19:36,625
somebody go in like a ship that comes in

569
01:19:36,625 --> 01:19:39,375
through to a port, empties out and leaves

570
01:19:39,375 --> 01:19:41,083
probably within a couple of hours.

571
01:19:41,541 --> 01:19:43,166
It's very difficult for the authorities

572
01:19:43,166 --> 01:19:44,708
to even be dispatched or even to

573
01:19:44,708 --> 01:19:47,000
recognize that that is not a fishing

574
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:49,666
vessel that is in good standing or has

575
01:19:49,666 --> 01:19:51,250
had problems like you said before, but

576
01:19:51,250 --> 01:19:52,375
they can't act on it

577
01:19:52,375 --> 01:19:53,458
until they get there.

578
01:19:53,750 --> 01:19:56,500
Now, I have heard of cases where AIs is

579
01:19:56,500 --> 01:19:59,041
being used or being explored in being

580
01:19:59,041 --> 01:20:00,833
able to quicken that process. And I'm

581
01:20:00,833 --> 01:20:03,083
sure like, you know, data was a data

582
01:20:03,083 --> 01:20:04,958
mining and so forth, like these types of

583
01:20:04,958 --> 01:20:06,166
technologies can help.

584
01:20:06,791 --> 01:20:08,666
Is Global Fishing Watch involved in any

585
01:20:08,666 --> 01:20:10,291
of that type of work where we're looking

586
01:20:10,291 --> 01:20:13,583
at upgrading that technology to speed up

587
01:20:13,583 --> 01:20:15,416
the process where, you know, authorities

588
01:20:15,416 --> 01:20:17,500
at the port can be dispatched in time. So

589
01:20:17,500 --> 01:20:18,583
these vessels are caught

590
01:20:18,583 --> 01:20:19,583
before they come into port.

591
01:20:20,333 --> 01:20:22,041
Yeah, absolutely. That's a really cool

592
01:20:22,041 --> 01:20:24,458
program of work for us. We, you know,

593
01:20:24,458 --> 01:20:26,000
these systems that you're talking about,

594
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:27,833
they've been in place in many developed

595
01:20:27,833 --> 01:20:29,708
nations for a long time.

596
01:20:30,375 --> 01:20:31,708
And so what Global Fishing Watch is

597
01:20:31,708 --> 01:20:33,250
really trying to do is bring together

598
01:20:33,250 --> 01:20:35,041
those elements and give them to

599
01:20:35,041 --> 01:20:37,625
developing nations for free so that the

600
01:20:37,625 --> 01:20:39,458
developing nations have access to the

601
01:20:39,458 --> 01:20:41,916
same like cutting edge innovative tools

602
01:20:41,916 --> 01:20:42,916
that will save them

603
01:20:42,916 --> 01:20:43,958
resources in the long run.

604
01:20:44,333 --> 01:20:46,666
We have two programs of work that are

605
01:20:46,666 --> 01:20:48,541
directly related to what you're talking

606
01:20:48,541 --> 01:20:51,500
about. One is for port inspections and we

607
01:20:51,500 --> 01:20:53,416
have a tool. You can find it on our

608
01:20:53,416 --> 01:20:54,750
website. It's called Vessel Viewer.

609
01:20:55,416 --> 01:20:57,333
It really collates all of that

610
01:20:57,333 --> 01:21:00,000
information in an easy to understand way.

611
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:02,541
You can type in a vessel name, a vessel

612
01:21:02,541 --> 01:21:05,625
identifier, a fleet, a flag, whatever you

613
01:21:05,625 --> 01:21:07,958
like. And it will give you very, very

614
01:21:07,958 --> 01:21:09,833
quickly, very rapidly, much quicker than

615
01:21:09,833 --> 01:21:10,750
my Google searching.

616
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:13,791
You know, five, 10, 15 different data

617
01:21:13,791 --> 01:21:16,208
sources of information for that for that

618
01:21:16,208 --> 01:21:18,250
vessel. And you can quickly scan and see,

619
01:21:18,250 --> 01:21:19,875
okay, these don't match. Therefore, I

620
01:21:19,875 --> 01:21:20,791
want to take action.

621
01:21:21,416 --> 01:21:23,458
And then the second program of work is

622
01:21:23,458 --> 01:21:25,208
similar, but it's really focused on

623
01:21:25,208 --> 01:21:28,250
supporting boardings and inspections. So

624
01:21:28,250 --> 01:21:30,750
Coast Guards and using the same data

625
01:21:30,750 --> 01:21:32,583
sources by presenting it in a way that

626
01:21:32,583 --> 01:21:35,458
helps patrol planning. And yeah, we've

627
01:21:35,458 --> 01:21:36,750
been doing that for a long time and had

628
01:21:36,750 --> 01:21:37,500
some great successes.

629
01:21:38,416 --> 01:21:39,958
That's amazing. That's amazing. Now

630
01:21:39,958 --> 01:21:43,000
talking about technology and vessel

631
01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:45,250
tracking, you know, in Busan, Global

632
01:21:45,250 --> 01:21:46,833
Fishing Watch spoke quite prominently

633
01:21:46,833 --> 01:21:50,000
about the great need for binding vessel

634
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:52,208
agreement, tracking agreements. What is

635
01:21:52,208 --> 01:21:54,541
vessel tracking and like why should it

636
01:21:54,541 --> 01:21:56,125
matter for those concerned about

637
01:21:56,125 --> 01:21:57,708
effective global ocean governance?

638
01:21:58,916 --> 01:22:00,916
Yeah, so vessel tracking is the ability

639
01:22:00,916 --> 01:22:03,750
to detect, identify and monitor a ship's

640
01:22:03,750 --> 01:22:07,083
location and map the full details of the

641
01:22:07,083 --> 01:22:09,333
ship's journey. So from the port that

642
01:22:09,333 --> 01:22:11,291
they leave from through to their final

643
01:22:11,291 --> 01:22:14,083
destination. And we can track our cars

644
01:22:14,083 --> 01:22:16,208
like this, our aeroplanes, even our

645
01:22:16,208 --> 01:22:18,666
merchant vessels in the same ocean. But

646
01:22:18,666 --> 01:22:20,791
really surprisingly, there's no global

647
01:22:20,791 --> 01:22:23,000
requirement for all fishing vessels that

648
01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:24,000
leave their own

649
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:25,750
national waters to be tracked.

650
01:22:26,166 --> 01:22:29,000
And we just we can't fix what we can't

651
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:32,458
see. So without a full data informed

652
01:22:32,458 --> 01:22:35,000
picture, the true scale of the human

653
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:37,000
activity at sea and all of the impacts

654
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:39,208
that add up, you know, we can't manage

655
01:22:39,208 --> 01:22:41,250
them effectively. And we can't take

656
01:22:41,250 --> 01:22:43,041
informed or preemptive

657
01:22:43,041 --> 01:22:44,916
actions to address their issues.

658
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:48,000
So, you know, if you're concerned about

659
01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:50,166
the sustainability of your HADUC here in

660
01:22:50,166 --> 01:22:52,875
the UK or human rights conditions of the

661
01:22:52,875 --> 01:22:54,750
supply chain where your pet food comes

662
01:22:54,750 --> 01:22:57,166
from or degradation of the Great Barrier

663
01:22:57,166 --> 01:22:59,583
Reef, you should care really that there's

664
01:22:59,583 --> 01:23:01,666
no global binding tracking requirement

665
01:23:01,666 --> 01:23:03,541
because these things all add up and they

666
01:23:03,541 --> 01:23:05,083
all equal increasing

667
01:23:05,083 --> 01:23:06,458
pressure on our ocean.

668
01:23:07,291 --> 01:23:09,416
So knowing what fishing vessels are doing

669
01:23:09,416 --> 01:23:12,750
and where allows us to understand the

670
01:23:12,750 --> 01:23:14,791
pressures, how they accumulate and how we

671
01:23:14,791 --> 01:23:16,791
can manage them before they do

672
01:23:16,791 --> 01:23:18,291
irreparable damage to

673
01:23:18,291 --> 01:23:19,541
our our ocean's health.

674
01:23:20,166 --> 01:23:21,666
Yeah, it's really interesting too,

675
01:23:21,666 --> 01:23:23,291
because I think, you know, when you talk

676
01:23:23,291 --> 01:23:25,291
about vessel tracking for for fishing,

677
01:23:25,625 --> 01:23:27,375
you would think that all fishers don't

678
01:23:27,375 --> 01:23:28,875
want people to know where they go, you

679
01:23:28,875 --> 01:23:30,458
know, they have their own special spot.

680
01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:32,791
And how they increase their no take

681
01:23:32,791 --> 01:23:34,458
areas, or they're no like nobody goes in

682
01:23:34,458 --> 01:23:37,708
those areas from 3% to 33%. I think, at

683
01:23:37,708 --> 01:23:39,583
the time, they increased it by 30%. But

684
01:23:39,583 --> 01:23:40,000
they did it using vessel tracking. So when they put time to work with them, you know, you

685
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:41,708
the heading of the Great Barrier Reef

686
01:23:41,708 --> 01:23:43,375
Marine Park at the time in

687
01:23:43,375 --> 01:23:44,791
early 2000. He came over,

688
01:23:44,791 --> 01:23:46,083
he was a good friend of my supervisor,

689
01:23:46,083 --> 01:23:47,208
John Roff, and he came

690
01:23:47,208 --> 01:23:48,166
over and he did a presentation

691
01:23:48,166 --> 01:23:51,291
on how they increased their no take areas

692
01:23:51,291 --> 01:23:53,000
or nobody goes in

693
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:56,125
those areas from 3% to 33%,

694
01:23:56,625 --> 01:23:58,000
I think at the time. So they increased it

695
01:23:58,000 --> 01:23:59,583
by 30%, but they did it

696
01:23:59,583 --> 01:24:00,458
using vessel tracking.

697
01:24:00,666 --> 01:24:02,750
So when they put in the Great Barrier

698
01:24:02,750 --> 01:24:04,208
Reef Marine Park, they

699
01:24:04,208 --> 01:24:05,375
actually put trackers on

700
01:24:05,375 --> 01:24:07,333
fishing vessels. And so when they looked

701
01:24:07,333 --> 01:24:08,875
at where they were,

702
01:24:09,291 --> 01:24:10,125
and they looked at what

703
01:24:10,166 --> 01:24:12,458
areas like the reserves or the no take,

704
01:24:12,666 --> 01:24:13,375
no research, no

705
01:24:13,375 --> 01:24:15,041
nothing, reserves went in and

706
01:24:15,041 --> 01:24:16,208
they wanted to increase it, they actually

707
01:24:16,208 --> 01:24:17,291
noticed that the

708
01:24:17,291 --> 01:24:18,250
fishers weren't even going

709
01:24:18,250 --> 01:24:20,375
in and they weren't even going into that

710
01:24:20,375 --> 01:24:21,458
area because they had

711
01:24:21,458 --> 01:24:22,291
that tracking vessel. So

712
01:24:22,291 --> 01:24:23,583
when they presented to the fishing

713
01:24:23,583 --> 01:24:25,000
community, they're like at

714
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:26,125
first, before they laid the

715
01:24:26,125 --> 01:24:27,625
track down, I remember him telling the

716
01:24:27,625 --> 01:24:28,458
story, they're like, "Oh

717
01:24:28,458 --> 01:24:29,166
yeah, this is where we want

718
01:24:29,166 --> 01:24:30,333
to increase." They're like, "Whoa, whoa,

719
01:24:30,333 --> 01:24:31,000
whoa, why are we

720
01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:31,625
increasing there?" And they're

721
01:24:31,875 --> 01:24:33,375
like, "Oh yeah, by the way, here's the

722
01:24:33,375 --> 01:24:34,250
layer of where you guys

723
01:24:34,250 --> 01:24:35,500
have been. You're not even in

724
01:24:35,500 --> 01:24:37,416
that area." And they're all just like,

725
01:24:37,416 --> 01:24:38,625
"Oh, well, okay, no

726
01:24:38,625 --> 01:24:41,250
problem." It's perfect. So people,

727
01:24:42,583 --> 01:24:44,708
there are times and situations where it

728
01:24:44,708 --> 01:24:46,208
actually helps conservation.

729
01:24:46,208 --> 01:24:46,958
Now that's not always going

730
01:24:46,958 --> 01:24:48,500
to be the time. There's conflict

731
01:24:48,500 --> 01:24:49,541
management. That's why you

732
01:24:49,541 --> 01:24:51,125
bring in that fishing community

733
01:24:51,208 --> 01:24:54,041
early on in the process, but there are

734
01:24:54,041 --> 01:24:55,500
times when it can be really

735
01:24:55,500 --> 01:24:57,666
helpful. Now we're looking at

736
01:24:58,666 --> 01:25:01,125
technology and I know AIS is a very big

737
01:25:01,125 --> 01:25:02,208
part of vessel

738
01:25:02,208 --> 01:25:04,416
tracking. So it's a GPS system,

739
01:25:04,666 --> 01:25:06,958
a very simple system that tracks and I've

740
01:25:06,958 --> 01:25:08,083
worked on that data before

741
01:25:08,083 --> 01:25:09,833
when I worked as a consultant

742
01:25:09,833 --> 01:25:11,375
for the government. And it's a very

743
01:25:11,375 --> 01:25:12,250
important thing in looking

744
01:25:12,250 --> 01:25:13,541
at shipping lanes and where

745
01:25:13,541 --> 01:25:15,291
people are going. Are they a Biden by it?

746
01:25:15,291 --> 01:25:16,166
So forth. And then of

747
01:25:16,166 --> 01:25:17,250
course, are they in marine

748
01:25:17,250 --> 01:25:19,041
protected areas here in Canada when I

749
01:25:19,041 --> 01:25:21,333
worked on it? But there's also a

750
01:25:21,333 --> 01:25:22,250
difference. I think you can

751
01:25:22,333 --> 01:25:24,041
turn it on and off whenever you want to

752
01:25:24,041 --> 01:25:24,916
do, or there's ways to get

753
01:25:24,916 --> 01:25:26,791
around it. And this kind of

754
01:25:26,833 --> 01:25:29,000
goes into my next question because in a

755
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:31,250
2024 study that published

756
01:25:31,250 --> 01:25:33,166
in Nature, which was led by

757
01:25:33,166 --> 01:25:34,458
and led by Global Fishing Watch

758
01:25:34,458 --> 01:25:35,625
researchers, and I've always wanted to

759
01:25:35,625 --> 01:25:36,625
ask this question from you

760
01:25:36,625 --> 01:25:40,625
guys. About 75% of the industrial fishing

761
01:25:40,625 --> 01:25:42,958
fleet does not appear in

762
01:25:42,958 --> 01:25:44,125
public monitoring systems,

763
01:25:44,875 --> 01:25:47,000
which is insane to think about. You think

764
01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:49,958
you have this technology, not always AIS,

765
01:25:49,958 --> 01:25:51,291
but you have all this technology that you

766
01:25:51,291 --> 01:25:53,291
can put on, but then you

767
01:25:53,291 --> 01:25:54,875
find out that three quarters of

768
01:25:54,916 --> 01:25:56,750
the industrial fishing fleet does not

769
01:25:56,750 --> 01:25:58,166
actually use it. So how

770
01:25:58,166 --> 01:25:59,166
can, like you mentioned before,

771
01:25:59,500 --> 01:26:01,333
how can you track what you don't know?

772
01:26:01,333 --> 01:26:02,875
Like how can you monitor what you don't

773
01:26:02,875 --> 01:26:04,250
know? So I guess like

774
01:26:04,250 --> 01:26:05,250
my question is like,

775
01:26:05,666 --> 01:26:08,000
how can transpandemic technology shine a

776
01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:09,916
light on the sort of the hidden

777
01:26:09,916 --> 01:26:11,750
happenings around the ocean?

778
01:26:11,750 --> 01:26:15,250
Like how do we increase that to 75% or

779
01:26:15,250 --> 01:26:17,041
even more being tracked

780
01:26:17,041 --> 01:26:18,000
instead of the opposite?

781
01:26:18,541 --> 01:26:20,333
Yeah, flipping it. I guess, yeah, it

782
01:26:20,333 --> 01:26:22,291
comes back to that point that we were

783
01:26:22,291 --> 01:26:23,458
talking about at the start about,

784
01:26:23,625 --> 01:26:25,541
Global Fishing Watch's purpose being to

785
01:26:25,541 --> 01:26:27,000
flip from a closed

786
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:30,541
system to an open one. And

787
01:26:30,833 --> 01:26:32,916
much of that activity to be clear, we're

788
01:26:32,916 --> 01:26:34,708
not saying it's not tracked at all, it's

789
01:26:34,708 --> 01:26:35,416
just not publicly

790
01:26:35,416 --> 01:26:37,041
tracked. So much of that activity

791
01:26:37,791 --> 01:26:40,125
is probably being tracked by closed

792
01:26:40,125 --> 01:26:42,416
monitoring systems. Typically that's

793
01:26:42,416 --> 01:26:44,041
vessel monitoring systems or VMFs.

794
01:26:44,666 --> 01:26:46,458
And that data is shared between the

795
01:26:46,458 --> 01:26:48,916
vessel itself and the flag state. That's

796
01:26:48,916 --> 01:26:49,666
the country that has

797
01:26:49,791 --> 01:26:52,291
allowed the vessel to go out and leave

798
01:26:52,291 --> 01:26:53,625
and go into national waters.

799
01:26:54,500 --> 01:26:55,416
And this is how traditional

800
01:26:55,875 --> 01:26:57,875
kind of more old school vessel tracking

801
01:26:57,875 --> 01:26:58,958
monitoring control

802
01:26:58,958 --> 01:26:59,916
and surveillance works.

803
01:27:00,500 --> 01:27:02,000
The tracking information is confidential.

804
01:27:02,000 --> 01:27:03,583
It's only shared between

805
01:27:03,583 --> 01:27:04,916
the vessel and the flag state.

806
01:27:05,583 --> 01:27:07,458
And the theory is exactly as you said,

807
01:27:07,458 --> 01:27:08,875
Andrew, it protects these kind of

808
01:27:08,875 --> 01:27:10,000
commercial sensitivities,

809
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:12,375
such as good fishing spots, whilst

810
01:27:12,375 --> 01:27:13,458
allowing the authorities

811
01:27:13,458 --> 01:27:14,625
who are the ones ultimately

812
01:27:14,833 --> 01:27:16,708
responsible to see what the vessel is

813
01:27:16,708 --> 01:27:19,625
doing. But this means if somebody else

814
01:27:19,625 --> 01:27:20,916
like me as the UK

815
01:27:20,916 --> 01:27:22,375
port state, or you as the

816
01:27:22,375 --> 01:27:24,750
coastal state giving a license for the

817
01:27:24,750 --> 01:27:27,125
vessel to fish in a different spot, they

818
01:27:27,125 --> 01:27:28,250
don't know what's happening.

819
01:27:28,541 --> 01:27:29,875
They don't, they can't see it.

820
01:27:30,375 --> 01:27:33,000
So they can take the vessel's word for

821
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:35,041
it, or they can contact the flag with all

822
01:27:35,041 --> 01:27:36,208
those challenges that

823
01:27:36,208 --> 01:27:37,250
we spoke about before.

824
01:27:37,541 --> 01:27:42,166
And we have seen decades of industrial

825
01:27:42,166 --> 01:27:43,750
fishing now and decades of

826
01:27:43,750 --> 01:27:45,541
this happening on the high seas.

827
01:27:45,541 --> 01:27:47,500
And in reality, what we are seeing is

828
01:27:47,500 --> 01:27:50,125
that flag states are not able to

829
01:27:50,125 --> 01:27:52,291
consistently meet the demand of these

830
01:27:52,291 --> 01:27:53,375
inquiries that are coming.

831
01:27:53,666 --> 01:27:55,666
And we at Global Fishing Watch have

832
01:27:55,666 --> 01:27:57,125
worked with countries where we've seen

833
01:27:57,125 --> 01:27:59,208
these requests go unanswered completely,

834
01:27:59,833 --> 01:28:02,208
go unanswered for weeks, or people not

835
01:28:02,208 --> 01:28:03,041
being able to get in

836
01:28:03,041 --> 01:28:04,333
touch with the right contacts.

837
01:28:04,375 --> 01:28:06,666
And we've also heard from flag states

838
01:28:06,666 --> 01:28:08,416
that have said to us, it's so much better

839
01:28:08,416 --> 01:28:10,583
when everything's public, because then

840
01:28:10,583 --> 01:28:12,000
we're only contacted if there's a real

841
01:28:12,000 --> 01:28:13,666
issue and then we can dedicate our

842
01:28:13,666 --> 01:28:15,500
resources to figuring that out with

843
01:28:15,500 --> 01:28:17,166
whoever's contacted us.

844
01:28:17,958 --> 01:28:20,041
And we've also seen these kind of

845
01:28:20,041 --> 01:28:23,541
unscrupulous operators looking to take

846
01:28:23,541 --> 01:28:25,916
advantage of those issues and looking to

847
01:28:25,916 --> 01:28:27,708
benefit themselves by exactly as you say

848
01:28:27,708 --> 01:28:29,583
falsifying the information they provide,

849
01:28:30,125 --> 01:28:31,208
pretending they're over here

850
01:28:31,208 --> 01:28:32,708
when really they're only here.

851
01:28:33,208 --> 01:28:35,583
And having multiple data sources, having

852
01:28:35,583 --> 01:28:38,250
the VMS and the AIS allows you to cross

853
01:28:38,250 --> 01:28:40,166
check and to compare and to

854
01:28:40,166 --> 01:28:41,875
understand whether it issues.

855
01:28:42,791 --> 01:28:44,750
And yeah, that's so important because we

856
01:28:44,750 --> 01:28:46,041
know like the honor system doesn't work

857
01:28:46,041 --> 01:28:49,000
anymore. We've seen that happen over and

858
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:50,166
over and over again. And it would have

859
01:28:50,166 --> 01:28:51,666
been nice if it did work and then we

860
01:28:51,666 --> 01:28:52,791
could just trust everybody.

861
01:28:52,833 --> 01:28:54,583
And then maybe there'd be only a small

862
01:28:54,583 --> 01:28:57,291
percentage of players, but 75% seems a

863
01:28:57,291 --> 01:28:58,708
little sketchy. Like, why wouldn't you

864
01:28:58,708 --> 01:29:01,416
want to know where you've been? Like, if

865
01:29:01,416 --> 01:29:02,750
you're doing everything right, why

866
01:29:02,750 --> 01:29:03,583
wouldn't you want to know?

867
01:29:03,583 --> 01:29:05,458
And that's, I think that was what was

868
01:29:05,458 --> 01:29:08,250
scariest to me. It was like 75% of that's

869
01:29:08,250 --> 01:29:10,958
a lot. That's huge. And was it surprising

870
01:29:10,958 --> 01:29:13,750
to the organization? Like, to you, like

871
01:29:13,750 --> 01:29:15,541
just being like, holy cow, like I would

872
01:29:15,541 --> 01:29:18,125
expect it under 50%, but 75, like the

873
01:29:18,125 --> 01:29:19,916
majority, like by a lot.

874
01:29:19,958 --> 01:29:20,791
I mean, you don't even get that many

875
01:29:20,791 --> 01:29:22,625
people. I'm about, you know, I, we had a

876
01:29:22,625 --> 01:29:24,208
federal election here recently and I

877
01:29:24,208 --> 01:29:26,250
don't think we had 75% people come up to

878
01:29:26,250 --> 01:29:29,625
vote. So imagine 75% of the people like

879
01:29:29,625 --> 01:29:31,083
not even tracking their vessels.

880
01:29:32,250 --> 01:29:34,208
Yeah, it was surprising. And I think it

881
01:29:34,208 --> 01:29:36,208
really just reiterated the scale of the

882
01:29:36,208 --> 01:29:38,500
issue and the seriousness with which

883
01:29:38,500 --> 01:29:39,916
Global Fishing Watch needs to treat this

884
01:29:39,916 --> 01:29:42,500
issue. And we use that in our

885
01:29:42,500 --> 01:29:44,750
interventions at the UN, we use that in

886
01:29:44,750 --> 01:29:46,333
our bilateral discussions that we have

887
01:29:46,333 --> 01:29:47,791
with countries to really show like,

888
01:29:48,250 --> 01:29:49,750
you might not think this is a huge

889
01:29:49,750 --> 01:29:52,500
problem, but globally, this really is a

890
01:29:52,500 --> 01:29:54,791
huge problem. And that argument continues

891
01:29:54,791 --> 01:29:56,958
to surface, we need to protect our

892
01:29:56,958 --> 01:29:59,500
special fishing spot that maybe like your

893
01:29:59,500 --> 01:30:01,500
grandfather found or whatever that might

894
01:30:01,500 --> 01:30:03,250
be. But in reality,

895
01:30:03,250 --> 01:30:04,625
that is quite outdated now.

896
01:30:04,666 --> 01:30:07,291
Other technologies, not just tracking

897
01:30:07,291 --> 01:30:09,458
technologies, yeah, have changed so much,

898
01:30:09,458 --> 01:30:12,208
right? You can find huge scores of fish

899
01:30:12,208 --> 01:30:13,708
more quickly than you've ever been able

900
01:30:13,708 --> 01:30:16,541
to before. And so many locations are

901
01:30:16,541 --> 01:30:18,916
broadcast, as you say, via AIS for safety

902
01:30:18,916 --> 01:30:21,875
reasons, this concept of the secret

903
01:30:21,875 --> 01:30:23,916
fishing spot or the perfect fishing spot

904
01:30:23,916 --> 01:30:24,625
that others don't know about.

905
01:30:24,666 --> 01:30:26,541
You know, of course, there are

906
01:30:26,541 --> 01:30:27,916
exceptions, but generally, it's not

907
01:30:27,916 --> 01:30:30,750
really a reality anymore. Plus, you know,

908
01:30:30,750 --> 01:30:32,166
our Global Fishing Watch, as I said, from

909
01:30:32,166 --> 01:30:34,250
the outset, you know, if activities

910
01:30:34,250 --> 01:30:36,291
occurring, you know, in a common area on

911
01:30:36,291 --> 01:30:37,583
a common resource, we think

912
01:30:37,583 --> 01:30:38,666
it should be common knowledge.

913
01:30:39,458 --> 01:30:40,875
Yeah, and it's also it's like, it's with

914
01:30:40,875 --> 01:30:43,000
especially within, I mean, there's

915
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:44,250
there's also the difference between like

916
01:30:44,250 --> 01:30:46,208
within the exclusive economic zones and

917
01:30:46,208 --> 01:30:47,583
outside, I mean, especially within the

918
01:30:47,583 --> 01:30:50,000
exclusive economic zone, it's a natural

919
01:30:50,000 --> 01:30:51,708
resource for that country, the citizens

920
01:30:51,708 --> 01:30:52,625
of that country should have access.

921
01:30:52,666 --> 01:30:56,125
And then people and organizations such as

922
01:30:56,125 --> 01:30:57,375
Global Fishing Watch and yourself can

923
01:30:57,375 --> 01:30:59,250
come out and say, Hey, look, we

924
01:30:59,250 --> 01:31:01,833
specialize in this, right? We look at

925
01:31:01,833 --> 01:31:03,666
this, we'll take this data and we'll do

926
01:31:03,666 --> 01:31:05,625
analysis on this, we'll see where people

927
01:31:05,625 --> 01:31:07,333
go and we'll give you the information,

928
01:31:07,666 --> 01:31:09,625
probably as a benefit to those countries

929
01:31:09,625 --> 01:31:10,625
to have the specialists.

930
01:31:10,666 --> 01:31:12,666
I mean, Global Fishing Watch is literally

931
01:31:12,666 --> 01:31:14,375
global, you guys are all around the

932
01:31:14,375 --> 01:31:16,083
world, you know, and spaced all around

933
01:31:16,083 --> 01:31:18,166
the world. So you understand sort of the

934
01:31:18,166 --> 01:31:19,958
different contexts and nuances of each

935
01:31:19,958 --> 01:31:22,708
country and where you live and the

936
01:31:22,708 --> 01:31:24,000
regions in which where you live.

937
01:31:24,791 --> 01:31:27,791
So you have that specialist group to be

938
01:31:27,791 --> 01:31:29,375
able to take that data that's available

939
01:31:29,375 --> 01:31:31,541
publicly, provide that analysis to the

940
01:31:31,541 --> 01:31:33,291
country and just be like, Hey, look, you

941
01:31:33,291 --> 01:31:34,625
know, we want to help you.

942
01:31:34,666 --> 01:31:37,208
And I guess at least to my next question

943
01:31:37,208 --> 01:31:40,583
is like, how is Global Fishing Watch, you

944
01:31:40,583 --> 01:31:42,041
know, working with other countries and

945
01:31:42,041 --> 01:31:42,833
governments to

946
01:31:42,833 --> 01:31:44,458
mainstream vessel tracking?

947
01:31:44,458 --> 01:31:45,666
I know we talked a little bit about how

948
01:31:45,666 --> 01:31:47,583
you work with countries before, but yes,

949
01:31:47,916 --> 01:31:51,041
to mainstream vessel tracking, it's got

950
01:31:51,041 --> 01:31:52,750
to be a bit of a challenge because like I

951
01:31:52,750 --> 01:31:54,541
said before, there are some countries who

952
01:31:54,541 --> 01:31:55,416
may not even have it

953
01:31:55,416 --> 01:31:56,916
available or may not.

954
01:31:57,166 --> 01:31:58,750
And some just may not make it public,

955
01:31:58,750 --> 01:32:00,250
which might be a little easier. So how do

956
01:32:00,250 --> 01:32:01,958
you get through that into

957
01:32:01,958 --> 01:32:02,625
mainstream that vessel tracking?

958
01:32:02,666 --> 01:32:06,208
Yeah, you're right. We work with a number

959
01:32:06,208 --> 01:32:08,708
of countries and the most important thing

960
01:32:08,708 --> 01:32:11,625
really is country context. We're, you

961
01:32:11,625 --> 01:32:13,500
know, an international team, a global

962
01:32:13,500 --> 01:32:16,916
team of experts on vessel tracking, but

963
01:32:16,916 --> 01:32:19,125
we're not a global team of experts on

964
01:32:19,125 --> 01:32:21,375
vessel tracking in Senegal or in the UK

965
01:32:21,375 --> 01:32:23,416
or Canada or in Ghana or

966
01:32:23,416 --> 01:32:24,625
in the Marshall Islands.

967
01:32:24,666 --> 01:32:27,916
That country context is really important.

968
01:32:28,333 --> 01:32:30,000
So everything has got to be a partnership

969
01:32:30,000 --> 01:32:31,916
with the governments that we're working

970
01:32:31,916 --> 01:32:34,791
with. We really need to understand why

971
01:32:34,791 --> 01:32:36,166
their system was developed the way it

972
01:32:36,166 --> 01:32:38,166
was, if it's meeting their needs, what

973
01:32:38,166 --> 01:32:39,166
their challenges are.

974
01:32:39,666 --> 01:32:41,500
And we do that through a combination of

975
01:32:41,500 --> 01:32:43,041
learning from the government, working

976
01:32:43,041 --> 01:32:44,875
with them, really digging deep into

977
01:32:44,875 --> 01:32:47,208
understanding how they work with partners

978
01:32:47,208 --> 01:32:49,416
on the ground, with other nonprofits,

979
01:32:49,833 --> 01:32:51,833
with researchers, with local universities

980
01:32:51,833 --> 01:32:53,625
and with people that we hire into Global Fishing Watch.

981
01:32:53,666 --> 01:32:54,916
And we hire into Global Fishing Watch to

982
01:32:54,916 --> 01:32:56,833
work on projects that perhaps have worked

983
01:32:56,833 --> 01:32:58,500
in that country for a number of years.

984
01:32:59,375 --> 01:33:01,375
And a really significant portion of the

985
01:33:01,375 --> 01:33:03,041
work that we do as an organization with

986
01:33:03,041 --> 01:33:04,375
countries is specifically

987
01:33:04,375 --> 01:33:06,166
focused on vessel tracking.

988
01:33:06,666 --> 01:33:08,750
So we help countries to review their

989
01:33:08,750 --> 01:33:11,166
policies around vessel tracking. Does

990
01:33:11,166 --> 01:33:13,875
your legislation meet the needs that you

991
01:33:13,875 --> 01:33:16,166
have? Do your regulations have the

992
01:33:16,166 --> 01:33:18,250
requirements that you need? Are they out

993
01:33:18,250 --> 01:33:19,375
of date? Could they be updated?

994
01:33:19,666 --> 01:33:22,333
Is there a week or a week wording which

995
01:33:22,333 --> 01:33:25,333
bad actors could take advantage of? And

996
01:33:25,333 --> 01:33:27,166
we go to the country and we spend time

997
01:33:27,166 --> 01:33:28,958
there and we go through normally a week

998
01:33:28,958 --> 01:33:31,500
long process to co-develop a program of

999
01:33:31,500 --> 01:33:33,583
work that really looks at all the

1000
01:33:33,583 --> 01:33:35,750
different challenges and makes

1001
01:33:35,750 --> 01:33:38,500
recommendations on how public vessel

1002
01:33:38,500 --> 01:33:39,625
tracking could help them.

1003
01:33:39,666 --> 01:33:41,708
But you've got to meet them where they

1004
01:33:41,708 --> 01:33:43,791
are, right? You can't be going and making

1005
01:33:43,791 --> 01:33:45,875
recommendations for like a platinum

1006
01:33:45,875 --> 01:33:48,416
system when the fundamentals aren't in

1007
01:33:48,416 --> 01:33:49,333
place. So that does

1008
01:33:49,333 --> 01:33:50,875
vary country to country.

1009
01:33:51,583 --> 01:33:54,958
And one thing that we have really learned

1010
01:33:54,958 --> 01:33:57,041
throughout our kind of last number of

1011
01:33:57,041 --> 01:33:58,625
years working with countries on this is

1012
01:33:58,625 --> 01:34:01,291
that AIS, that automatic identification

1013
01:34:01,291 --> 01:34:05,250
system technology, is really valued by a

1014
01:34:05,250 --> 01:34:06,208
lot of countries for

1015
01:34:06,208 --> 01:34:06,625
its cost effectiveness.

1016
01:34:06,666 --> 01:34:10,250
So vessel monitoring systems, VMS, pretty

1017
01:34:10,250 --> 01:34:13,416
expensive and lots of countries, they

1018
01:34:13,416 --> 01:34:15,000
have it and they don't pay for it. So

1019
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:16,708
therefore it's not getting used or they

1020
01:34:16,708 --> 01:34:17,708
don't have it at all.

1021
01:34:18,333 --> 01:34:20,708
Whereas AIS, much more reasonably priced,

1022
01:34:20,916 --> 01:34:22,833
much more affordable, whilst it may not

1023
01:34:22,833 --> 01:34:25,000
be perfect, meeting a country where they

1024
01:34:25,000 --> 01:34:26,791
are, they have nothing, this is something

1025
01:34:26,791 --> 01:34:29,458
and we start with them there.

1026
01:34:30,416 --> 01:34:32,583
And then kind of taking that one step

1027
01:34:32,583 --> 01:34:35,458
further, we often support them to engage

1028
01:34:35,458 --> 01:34:38,083
in regional and international discussions

1029
01:34:38,083 --> 01:34:39,791
on vessel tracking that perhaps they

1030
01:34:39,791 --> 01:34:41,375
might not have been paying attention to

1031
01:34:41,375 --> 01:34:43,500
or been able to be engaged with before.

1032
01:34:44,166 --> 01:34:45,791
And that's a lot of kind of learning from

1033
01:34:45,791 --> 01:34:48,000
others, sharing experiences, discussing

1034
01:34:48,000 --> 01:34:50,291
challenges and requesting help from the

1035
01:34:50,291 --> 01:34:51,708
international community where they think

1036
01:34:51,708 --> 01:34:53,916
they could benefit. And so far, this has

1037
01:34:53,916 --> 01:34:54,625
been pretty successful.

1038
01:34:54,666 --> 01:34:58,666
Yeah, absolutely. And I love that to see

1039
01:34:58,666 --> 01:35:01,291
more countries being interested in and I

1040
01:35:01,291 --> 01:35:02,875
do get the fact that there are some

1041
01:35:02,875 --> 01:35:05,541
countries who just need to just a little

1042
01:35:05,541 --> 01:35:07,916
help to get up above and let's just start

1043
01:35:07,916 --> 01:35:10,208
with tracking in general, get the basic

1044
01:35:10,208 --> 01:35:11,625
information, which is location.

1045
01:35:11,666 --> 01:35:13,916
You know, there's an as it as it's

1046
01:35:13,916 --> 01:35:16,833
somebody who's involved in GIS loves maps

1047
01:35:16,833 --> 01:35:19,708
and visual learner as many of us are to

1048
01:35:19,708 --> 01:35:21,833
be able to see those stories develop and

1049
01:35:21,833 --> 01:35:23,500
to be able to see where people are going

1050
01:35:23,500 --> 01:35:25,583
and and to find out when people are going

1051
01:35:25,583 --> 01:35:27,750
at certain times and so forth and to be

1052
01:35:27,750 --> 01:35:29,583
like, look, this is a big fishing spot,

1053
01:35:29,583 --> 01:35:30,333
but it's around this area.

1054
01:35:30,541 --> 01:35:31,625
Why is it around this area? And you can

1055
01:35:31,625 --> 01:35:33,500
really collate a lot of science around

1056
01:35:33,500 --> 01:35:34,875
that and a lot of research

1057
01:35:34,875 --> 01:35:36,625
around that. So I do love that.

1058
01:35:36,666 --> 01:35:38,666
I love that. Now, obviously, vessel

1059
01:35:38,666 --> 01:35:40,541
tracking is is one part. It's a big

1060
01:35:40,541 --> 01:35:42,166
significant part, especially with that

1061
01:35:42,166 --> 01:35:44,083
2024 study that was led by

1062
01:35:44,083 --> 01:35:45,791
Google Watch looking at that.

1063
01:35:47,375 --> 01:35:48,500
But there's also other things that have

1064
01:35:48,500 --> 01:35:50,791
come up in the past where especially when

1065
01:35:50,791 --> 01:35:53,000
we're looking at illegal fishing and you

1066
01:35:53,000 --> 01:35:54,791
mentioned it earlier is tracking who

1067
01:35:54,791 --> 01:35:58,583
benefits from the profits of selling this

1068
01:35:58,583 --> 01:36:00,541
fish, these fish, whether they're legally

1069
01:36:00,541 --> 01:36:02,708
caught or illegally caught like just a

1070
01:36:02,708 --> 01:36:05,625
registry of owners of not only vessels,

1071
01:36:05,666 --> 01:36:08,583
but like the owners of the of who's

1072
01:36:08,583 --> 01:36:10,500
getting the final profit of it all

1073
01:36:10,500 --> 01:36:12,458
because there are there have been stories

1074
01:36:12,458 --> 01:36:13,916
have come out that we've covered on this

1075
01:36:13,916 --> 01:36:14,750
podcast where we're

1076
01:36:14,750 --> 01:36:16,208
looking at illegal fishing.

1077
01:36:16,208 --> 01:36:17,791
There was one vessel in particular who

1078
01:36:17,791 --> 01:36:20,250
who went through like decades long

1079
01:36:20,250 --> 01:36:23,333
reputation of going into ports under

1080
01:36:23,333 --> 01:36:25,083
different flags and then being going in

1081
01:36:25,083 --> 01:36:26,333
when they finally caught

1082
01:36:26,333 --> 01:36:27,625
it, they caught the vessel.

1083
01:36:27,666 --> 01:36:30,958
They couldn't track who was to like who

1084
01:36:30,958 --> 01:36:33,541
owned it and it was over a lot. It got

1085
01:36:33,541 --> 01:36:36,166
into a lot of not only politics, but

1086
01:36:36,166 --> 01:36:39,041
there was like organized crime involved

1087
01:36:39,041 --> 01:36:40,333
and things like that.

1088
01:36:40,541 --> 01:36:42,708
And it's it's it gets very complex. So

1089
01:36:42,708 --> 01:36:44,791
tracking the vessel is one thing. It's

1090
01:36:44,791 --> 01:36:46,375
obviously a very important thing

1091
01:36:46,375 --> 01:36:47,375
physically. It's like the

1092
01:36:47,375 --> 01:36:48,625
basic thing that we need.

1093
01:36:48,666 --> 01:36:51,416
But then when we track who profits off of

1094
01:36:51,416 --> 01:36:55,583
this, how is that how is that research or

1095
01:36:55,583 --> 01:36:57,833
that program going as is global fishing

1096
01:36:57,833 --> 01:36:59,916
watch involved in that as well? And how

1097
01:36:59,916 --> 01:37:01,500
is that where are we at

1098
01:37:01,500 --> 01:37:03,416
with that type of of tracking?

1099
01:37:04,833 --> 01:37:06,166
Yeah, global fishing, which is definitely

1100
01:37:06,166 --> 01:37:08,208
involved in that. I'd say those are our

1101
01:37:08,208 --> 01:37:11,041
kind of two. Those are two of our three

1102
01:37:11,041 --> 01:37:12,750
big policy areas that we focus on

1103
01:37:12,750 --> 01:37:15,208
internationally. And that is because

1104
01:37:15,208 --> 01:37:16,041
they're just big

1105
01:37:16,041 --> 01:37:17,625
international gaps on these topics.

1106
01:37:17,666 --> 01:37:20,166
And so we're talking about the

1107
01:37:20,166 --> 01:37:22,833
one that we look at is the

1108
01:37:22,833 --> 01:37:24,500
interoperability of data and the

1109
01:37:24,500 --> 01:37:26,500
standards of data, much more technical,

1110
01:37:26,500 --> 01:37:29,250
but those are our three big areas. And

1111
01:37:29,250 --> 01:37:33,875
ownership is probably the furthest behind

1112
01:37:33,875 --> 01:37:35,083
needs the most amount of

1113
01:37:35,083 --> 01:37:36,000
attention and leadership.

1114
01:37:36,666 --> 01:37:38,250
And so we're seeing lots of people

1115
01:37:38,250 --> 01:37:40,500
embrace tracking transparency and data

1116
01:37:40,500 --> 01:37:42,875
quality measures. We're not really

1117
01:37:42,875 --> 01:37:45,500
seeing, you know, country after country

1118
01:37:45,500 --> 01:37:46,333
coming forward and

1119
01:37:46,333 --> 01:37:48,000
publishing their ownership data.

1120
01:37:48,500 --> 01:37:50,000
And in some cases, we're seeing, you

1121
01:37:50,000 --> 01:37:51,666
know, restrictions of that data and

1122
01:37:51,666 --> 01:37:54,000
tightening of data privacy rules to cover

1123
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:56,000
commercially sensitive information that

1124
01:37:56,000 --> 01:37:56,958
the country considers

1125
01:37:56,958 --> 01:37:57,708
commercially sensitive.

1126
01:37:58,666 --> 01:38:00,833
And it is a real challenge because as you

1127
01:38:00,833 --> 01:38:02,250
mentioned, you know, there's so many

1128
01:38:02,250 --> 01:38:04,916
loopholes that you're smart unscrupulous

1129
01:38:04,916 --> 01:38:07,125
operators can use to their advantage.

1130
01:38:07,375 --> 01:38:08,958
They can change the name, they can change

1131
01:38:08,958 --> 01:38:11,375
the flag, they can call in one port and

1132
01:38:11,375 --> 01:38:12,708
then another and you

1133
01:38:12,708 --> 01:38:14,125
know, leave and what happens.

1134
01:38:14,125 --> 01:38:15,333
Nobody knows who they are. And then

1135
01:38:15,333 --> 01:38:17,791
finally, you say you get to who's been

1136
01:38:17,791 --> 01:38:19,916
doing the bad behavior. You wish you a

1137
01:38:19,916 --> 01:38:21,666
huge fine. It goes through your courts

1138
01:38:21,666 --> 01:38:25,041
loads of work on your behalf. And all you

1139
01:38:25,041 --> 01:38:26,250
have is the operator who of

1140
01:38:26,250 --> 01:38:27,625
course can't pay that fine.

1141
01:38:27,666 --> 01:38:30,166
You know, manning a fishing vessel that's

1142
01:38:30,166 --> 01:38:32,708
not, you don't get the fine. You don't

1143
01:38:32,708 --> 01:38:34,916
get the satisfaction or the sanction.

1144
01:38:35,583 --> 01:38:37,000
And, you know, the owner's not deterred.

1145
01:38:37,208 --> 01:38:37,791
They just do it again

1146
01:38:37,791 --> 01:38:38,666
with a different vessel.

1147
01:38:38,666 --> 01:38:41,625
So we really do need transparency of

1148
01:38:41,625 --> 01:38:43,666
beneficial ownership information. There

1149
01:38:43,666 --> 01:38:45,458
is a route for it with the United

1150
01:38:45,458 --> 01:38:47,416
Nations. As I mentioned before, this

1151
01:38:47,416 --> 01:38:51,125
global record has a space in this app.

1152
01:38:51,125 --> 01:38:52,541
It's essentially an app to

1153
01:38:52,541 --> 01:38:53,625
upload all of this information.

1154
01:38:53,666 --> 01:38:55,583
But we just need leadership from

1155
01:38:55,583 --> 01:38:58,666
countries to navigate the data privacy

1156
01:38:58,666 --> 01:39:01,500
rules interpret how that can be shared

1157
01:39:01,500 --> 01:39:03,208
and commit to sharing that information.

1158
01:39:03,875 --> 01:39:05,333
And I'm sure that's that's not an easy

1159
01:39:05,333 --> 01:39:07,375
thing. You know, we know the process, but

1160
01:39:07,375 --> 01:39:10,166
just the fact of just displaying, you

1161
01:39:10,166 --> 01:39:12,416
know, information like financial

1162
01:39:12,416 --> 01:39:15,416
information from private companies is is

1163
01:39:15,416 --> 01:39:16,625
a problem within itself.

1164
01:39:16,666 --> 01:39:18,541
Maybe from publicly traded companies, you

1165
01:39:18,541 --> 01:39:20,583
can you can start to install those types

1166
01:39:20,583 --> 01:39:22,958
of measures and policies, but from a

1167
01:39:22,958 --> 01:39:24,458
private company who they don't really

1168
01:39:24,458 --> 01:39:26,000
want you to see their books all the time

1169
01:39:26,000 --> 01:39:27,875
for a number of different reasons.

1170
01:39:28,791 --> 01:39:30,166
You know, it could be it could be very

1171
01:39:30,166 --> 01:39:31,833
challenging. So hopefully we can get

1172
01:39:31,833 --> 01:39:33,291
further and further on that. And

1173
01:39:33,291 --> 01:39:36,291
obviously, we're we're at the beginning

1174
01:39:36,291 --> 01:39:38,875
stages. But I love the fact that, you

1175
01:39:38,875 --> 01:39:40,625
know, the vessel tracking is getting up.

1176
01:39:40,666 --> 01:39:42,750
Countries are interested. Same with data

1177
01:39:42,750 --> 01:39:44,791
interoperability, like trying to be able

1178
01:39:44,791 --> 01:39:46,500
to make sure we have the same standards

1179
01:39:46,500 --> 01:39:48,041
and we're all comparing at the same rate.

1180
01:39:48,416 --> 01:39:49,583
I think it's great because, you know,

1181
01:39:49,583 --> 01:39:50,958
it's one ocean. So we should be talking

1182
01:39:50,958 --> 01:39:52,833
about one one type of fisheries.

1183
01:39:53,166 --> 01:39:55,041
Now, I know the the ocean conference just

1184
01:39:55,041 --> 01:39:57,000
the ocean conference just wrapped up in

1185
01:39:57,000 --> 01:40:00,291
Busan, South Korea. And, you know, we're

1186
01:40:00,291 --> 01:40:02,250
now looking forward to we're just about

1187
01:40:02,250 --> 01:40:04,541
to go into the UN Ocean Conference, the

1188
01:40:04,541 --> 01:40:06,666
ocean decade conference in these France,

1189
01:40:06,666 --> 01:40:07,708
which I hope to be there.

1190
01:40:07,708 --> 01:40:08,666
Hopefully, I'll be great.

1191
01:40:10,625 --> 01:40:12,833
So what are the main takeaways from from

1192
01:40:12,833 --> 01:40:17,916
Busan? And how can we push that into the

1193
01:40:17,916 --> 01:40:20,000
our ocean decade conference?

1194
01:40:21,166 --> 01:40:23,708
Yeah, so I think that all these kind of

1195
01:40:23,708 --> 01:40:25,541
international conferences events like the

1196
01:40:25,541 --> 01:40:27,208
Irish and conference, the United Nation

1197
01:40:27,208 --> 01:40:28,375
Ocean Conference, they're really

1198
01:40:28,375 --> 01:40:30,375
important to ocean conservation because

1199
01:40:30,375 --> 01:40:33,083
they serve as, I guess, a platform for

1200
01:40:33,083 --> 01:40:36,083
optimism, they are a place where people,

1201
01:40:36,083 --> 01:40:37,708
they're celebrated for the

1202
01:40:37,708 --> 01:40:38,583
good work that they're doing.

1203
01:40:38,666 --> 01:40:42,166
And they create this momentum around a

1204
01:40:42,166 --> 01:40:44,500
topic or an issue and stakeholders go and

1205
01:40:44,500 --> 01:40:46,916
they feel that and they want to be a part

1206
01:40:46,916 --> 01:40:48,208
of that and they want to have something

1207
01:40:48,208 --> 01:40:49,458
to contribute and to be

1208
01:40:49,458 --> 01:40:51,041
celebrated for themselves.

1209
01:40:51,666 --> 01:40:54,625
And this environment leads to a lot of

1210
01:40:54,625 --> 01:40:56,458
country commitments, you know, government

1211
01:40:56,458 --> 01:40:58,500
standing on stage and promising that x

1212
01:40:58,500 --> 01:41:00,500
square kilometers of ocean will be

1213
01:41:00,500 --> 01:41:03,208
protected or why fisheries data will be

1214
01:41:03,208 --> 01:41:06,166
published. And this might sound a little

1215
01:41:06,166 --> 01:41:07,833
bit empty, but it's really important

1216
01:41:07,833 --> 01:41:10,250
because without it, we can easily fall

1217
01:41:10,250 --> 01:41:12,458
into a space where countries are very

1218
01:41:12,458 --> 01:41:14,625
domestically focused, they don't feel any

1219
01:41:14,625 --> 01:41:16,458
external pressure to

1220
01:41:16,458 --> 01:41:17,625
keep following the curve.

1221
01:41:17,666 --> 01:41:19,583
And therefore, you know, they're

1222
01:41:19,583 --> 01:41:21,083
perfectly happy if lots of people are

1223
01:41:21,083 --> 01:41:22,333
doing that and they're just staying in

1224
01:41:22,333 --> 01:41:24,666
their lane. And so these conferences can

1225
01:41:24,666 --> 01:41:26,125
really bring people along on a

1226
01:41:26,125 --> 01:41:28,375
progressive journey that, you know, those

1227
01:41:28,375 --> 01:41:29,041
countries might not have

1228
01:41:29,041 --> 01:41:30,333
done anything at all otherwise.

1229
01:41:31,666 --> 01:41:33,458
And coming out of Busan, the most

1230
01:41:33,458 --> 01:41:35,291
exciting commitment from Global Fishing

1231
01:41:35,291 --> 01:41:37,000
Watches perspective was made by Panama.

1232
01:41:38,208 --> 01:41:40,000
Panama announced that they will improve

1233
01:41:40,000 --> 01:41:42,333
the transparency and accessibility of

1234
01:41:42,333 --> 01:41:44,333
their ultimate beneficial ownership data

1235
01:41:44,333 --> 01:41:46,291
for the international fishing fleet.

1236
01:41:46,666 --> 01:41:48,625
And that's really significant because

1237
01:41:48,625 --> 01:41:51,041
Panama has hundreds of vessels operate

1238
01:41:51,041 --> 01:41:53,375
all around the world and they're going to

1239
01:41:53,375 --> 01:41:56,333
be publishing a list of those owners. And

1240
01:41:56,333 --> 01:41:58,500
that means that decision makers will have

1241
01:41:58,500 --> 01:42:00,791
access to that when they need it, not,

1242
01:42:00,791 --> 01:42:01,833
you know, months later.

1243
01:42:02,666 --> 01:42:04,250
And so if there is an issue, it is the

1244
01:42:04,250 --> 01:42:06,250
actual beneficiary that will be

1245
01:42:06,250 --> 01:42:08,500
sanctioned, not the operators as we spoke

1246
01:42:08,500 --> 01:42:11,333
about owners aren't able to kind of hide

1247
01:42:11,333 --> 01:42:13,125
behind all these different structures.

1248
01:42:13,583 --> 01:42:15,125
It's clear this is the owner.

1249
01:42:16,666 --> 01:42:17,708
And decision makers can use that

1250
01:42:17,708 --> 01:42:19,041
information as part of their risk

1251
01:42:19,041 --> 01:42:20,666
assessment criteria. You know, we spoke

1252
01:42:20,666 --> 01:42:23,166
before about, hmm, I've had an issue with

1253
01:42:23,166 --> 01:42:25,041
this odor in the past, maybe I'm going to

1254
01:42:25,041 --> 01:42:26,500
prioritize looking at all the other

1255
01:42:26,500 --> 01:42:27,208
vessels that are

1256
01:42:27,208 --> 01:42:28,666
owned by the same person.

1257
01:42:29,291 --> 01:42:30,541
Yeah. And, you know, maybe I'm not going

1258
01:42:30,541 --> 01:42:32,041
to grant them a license or maybe I'm

1259
01:42:32,041 --> 01:42:33,750
going to board and inspect.

1260
01:42:35,666 --> 01:42:37,458
And Panama's leadership on this issue is

1261
01:42:37,458 --> 01:42:39,500
is so much more valuable than just for

1262
01:42:39,500 --> 01:42:42,000
the Panamanian fleet, because others will

1263
01:42:42,000 --> 01:42:43,541
follow suit, right? They're standing up

1264
01:42:43,541 --> 01:42:44,375
and they're leading and

1265
01:42:44,375 --> 01:42:45,541
it creates this momentum.

1266
01:42:45,791 --> 01:42:47,541
That's what I hope we can take from Busan

1267
01:42:47,541 --> 01:42:50,458
into Nise. I hope that we can get to

1268
01:42:50,458 --> 01:42:53,166
others talking about the topic and others

1269
01:42:53,166 --> 01:42:56,458
considering these kind of common areas of

1270
01:42:56,458 --> 01:42:57,916
pushback that this is like really

1271
01:42:57,916 --> 01:42:59,208
resource intensive to do.

1272
01:43:21,625 --> 01:43:23,166
And I think that's what we're going to do. And I think that's what we're going to do. Yeah, and you're right. These conferences, international conference, we

1273
01:43:23,166 --> 01:43:24,708
do see, you know, big press conferences

1274
01:43:24,708 --> 01:43:25,000
on commitments that people make. And I

1275
01:43:25,000 --> 01:43:27,750
do, I agree with you that we can, it

1276
01:43:27,750 --> 01:43:31,333
allows us to hold them accountable, you

1277
01:43:31,333 --> 01:43:31,666
know, it allows us and

1278
01:43:31,666 --> 01:43:34,625
it even gives, I'm sure,

1279
01:43:50,708 --> 01:43:53,291
an organization like Global Fishing Watch

1280
01:43:53,291 --> 01:43:54,875
to be like, Oh, hey, we'd like to work

1281
01:43:54,875 --> 01:43:55,625
with you to help you get there. You know, here's our experience and then we can help you. And then I think that's a great way to do it. But there's a lot of events that go on during these international conferences. How does Global Fishing Watch work?

1282
01:44:07,375 --> 01:44:09,708
And like, are you speaking with

1283
01:44:09,708 --> 01:44:11,583
representatives from different countries,

1284
01:44:12,125 --> 01:44:14,083
either through past contacts or meeting

1285
01:44:14,083 --> 01:44:16,416
new contacts? Like, what's the approach?

1286
01:44:16,416 --> 01:44:17,625
I always talk about going to a conference and everybody's got to have a strategy when you get there. I'm sure Global Fishing Watch does the same thing. What's the strategy when you approach these international conferences? And I think that's a great way to do it.

1287
01:44:30,041 --> 01:44:31,500
My colleague, my colleagues will be a

1288
01:44:31,500 --> 01:44:34,333
nice, yeah. Our CEO, our chief program

1289
01:44:34,333 --> 01:44:36,000
officer and representatives from the

1290
01:44:36,000 --> 01:44:37,375
International Policy Team will definitely

1291
01:44:37,375 --> 01:44:38,625
be a nice. Yeah, it's a good question. I think there's two approaches. One is kind of turn up and speak to as many people as possible. Yeah. And the second is, you know, I think the first thing I'd like to do is to talk about the international conference.

1292
01:44:38,666 --> 01:44:40,375
Yeah, it's a good question. I think

1293
01:44:40,375 --> 01:44:43,208
there's two approaches. One is kind of

1294
01:44:43,208 --> 01:44:45,375
turn up and speak to as many people as

1295
01:44:45,375 --> 01:44:49,333
possible. Yeah. And the second is 99% of

1296
01:44:49,333 --> 01:44:50,791
the work is done before you even get on

1297
01:44:50,791 --> 01:44:54,333
the flight and we kind of take that that

1298
01:44:54,333 --> 01:44:56,916
second approach. We start prepping

1299
01:44:56,916 --> 01:44:59,875
probably at least four or five months

1300
01:44:59,875 --> 01:45:01,875
before the conference. We're working

1301
01:45:01,875 --> 01:45:03,875
normally with the conference organizers

1302
01:45:03,875 --> 01:45:05,750
to see if there's anything we can do to

1303
01:45:05,750 --> 01:45:06,916
help with the agenda,

1304
01:45:07,416 --> 01:45:07,625
suggesting speakers,

1305
01:45:07,666 --> 01:45:11,500
suggesting that we've been working with

1306
01:45:11,500 --> 01:45:13,000
this country and they've got something

1307
01:45:13,000 --> 01:45:14,750
really exciting. They might want to talk

1308
01:45:14,750 --> 01:45:17,583
about in this plenary session or we've

1309
01:45:17,583 --> 01:45:19,125
seen this latest development. It might

1310
01:45:19,125 --> 01:45:21,000
make a really good case study for a side

1311
01:45:21,000 --> 01:45:25,000
event. We would also be supporting the

1312
01:45:25,000 --> 01:45:26,666
countries that we work with to navigate

1313
01:45:26,666 --> 01:45:28,916
this as well, putting together a briefing

1314
01:45:28,916 --> 01:45:31,125
pack, going through all the sessions,

1315
01:45:31,375 --> 01:45:34,041
making sure the country can really make

1316
01:45:34,041 --> 01:45:36,208
the most and talk about the stuff that

1317
01:45:36,208 --> 01:45:36,625
we've been doing together in the international conference.

1318
01:45:36,666 --> 01:45:38,000
And so we're working together in each of

1319
01:45:38,000 --> 01:45:41,750
the four that's relevant, perhaps helping

1320
01:45:41,750 --> 01:45:44,500
to prepare speeches, things like that and

1321
01:45:44,500 --> 01:45:46,791
reviewing those announcements, suggesting

1322
01:45:46,791 --> 01:45:49,000
where it could be strengthened or made

1323
01:45:49,000 --> 01:45:52,291
more exciting, more bulletproof.

1324
01:45:54,666 --> 01:45:55,916
And then we're also looking at working on

1325
01:45:55,916 --> 01:45:58,125
a plan for how that commitment is going

1326
01:45:58,125 --> 01:45:59,791
to be implemented so that the government

1327
01:45:59,791 --> 01:46:01,791
feels confident going in that they know

1328
01:46:01,791 --> 01:46:03,333
the commitment is solid.

1329
01:46:03,583 --> 01:46:05,333
They have a plan for doing it.

1330
01:46:06,416 --> 01:46:08,416
But yeah, it's really exciting. It can be

1331
01:46:08,416 --> 01:46:10,125
a lot of firefighting right at the very

1332
01:46:10,125 --> 01:46:13,000
last minute. You know, ministers change,

1333
01:46:13,666 --> 01:46:15,875
language requirements change, it's very

1334
01:46:15,875 --> 01:46:18,666
varied, but it's a really cool part of

1335
01:46:18,666 --> 01:46:19,750
international policy work.

1336
01:46:20,666 --> 01:46:21,833
I love it. I think it's I think it's

1337
01:46:21,833 --> 01:46:23,291
really important. And I think, you know,

1338
01:46:23,291 --> 01:46:24,833
I'm glad you were able to come on the

1339
01:46:24,833 --> 01:46:27,291
podcast today. Very happy to be able to

1340
01:46:27,291 --> 01:46:29,166
discuss policy. It's not something that

1341
01:46:29,166 --> 01:46:31,000
we have to talk about all the time. A lot

1342
01:46:31,000 --> 01:46:32,625
of time when Ocean hits the news, it's

1343
01:46:32,625 --> 01:46:33,791
with an animal and, you

1344
01:46:33,791 --> 01:46:34,875
know, fun things that happen.

1345
01:46:34,875 --> 01:46:36,875
Or like, you know, recently, I think it

1346
01:46:36,875 --> 01:46:38,791
was a couple months ago, a kayaker got

1347
01:46:38,791 --> 01:46:40,500
swallowed up by a humpback or something

1348
01:46:40,500 --> 01:46:42,416
like that. You know, you get news like

1349
01:46:42,416 --> 01:46:44,000
that. But you don't get news in terms of

1350
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:45,958
what happens at these conferences, how

1351
01:46:45,958 --> 01:46:48,083
organizations approach these conferences.

1352
01:46:48,666 --> 01:46:50,208
You know, my goal is to get as many

1353
01:46:50,208 --> 01:46:51,791
interviews as possible when I go to these

1354
01:46:51,791 --> 01:46:53,333
these places and to find out as much

1355
01:46:53,333 --> 01:46:54,916
information as possible, what's what's

1356
01:46:54,916 --> 01:46:57,083
happening there. But I mean, that's a

1357
01:46:57,083 --> 01:46:58,583
it's an important aspect. You know, these

1358
01:46:58,583 --> 01:47:00,291
international conferences are important.

1359
01:47:01,125 --> 01:47:03,333
They play a big role in international

1360
01:47:03,333 --> 01:47:05,416
work that's done after those conferences.

1361
01:47:05,666 --> 01:47:06,708
And like I said, holding countries

1362
01:47:06,708 --> 01:47:07,916
accountable and negotiating with

1363
01:47:07,916 --> 01:47:10,041
countries to help them out and building

1364
01:47:10,041 --> 01:47:12,458
your building your networks and building,

1365
01:47:12,458 --> 01:47:13,625
you know, your frameworks for the future.

1366
01:47:13,666 --> 01:47:16,291
So, Courtney, I want to thank you so much

1367
01:47:16,291 --> 01:47:18,166
for spending time with me today and

1368
01:47:18,166 --> 01:47:19,958
spending time with us at the audience to

1369
01:47:19,958 --> 01:47:21,708
let us know not only what you and Global

1370
01:47:21,708 --> 01:47:24,666
Fishing Watch do, but also what is on par

1371
01:47:24,666 --> 01:47:27,041
for these these conferences and what has

1372
01:47:27,041 --> 01:47:29,166
happened at the Our Ocean Conference.

1373
01:47:29,166 --> 01:47:31,083
So I think it's really, really important.

1374
01:47:31,750 --> 01:47:33,333
So thank you so much for joining us on

1375
01:47:33,333 --> 01:47:35,208
today's episode. No, thank you so much

1376
01:47:35,208 --> 01:47:36,291
for having me, Andrew. It's been a

1377
01:47:36,291 --> 01:47:37,416
pleasure. Thank you, Courtney, for

1378
01:47:37,416 --> 01:47:39,458
joining us on today's episode of the How

1379
01:47:39,458 --> 01:47:39,625
to Protect the Ocean podcast.

1380
01:47:39,666 --> 01:47:42,583
It was great to be able to discuss what

1381
01:47:42,583 --> 01:47:45,291
Global Fishing Watch does as well as the

1382
01:47:45,291 --> 01:47:47,083
policies that they work on, the

1383
01:47:47,083 --> 01:47:48,916
technology that they're working on, where

1384
01:47:48,916 --> 01:47:50,958
technology is and where it needs to be

1385
01:47:50,958 --> 01:47:53,000
and how it's being used is such an

1386
01:47:53,000 --> 01:47:54,375
important part to tackle

1387
01:47:54,375 --> 01:47:55,625
overfishing on a global scale.

1388
01:47:55,666 --> 01:47:57,916
And I think having an organization that's

1389
01:47:57,916 --> 01:48:00,208
only 10 years old and being able to be a

1390
01:48:00,208 --> 01:48:02,333
prominent figure in that world and having

1391
01:48:02,333 --> 01:48:04,791
countries come to you for help is such a

1392
01:48:04,791 --> 01:48:07,250
testament to how well they've done over

1393
01:48:07,250 --> 01:48:08,833
that time when a new organization comes

1394
01:48:08,833 --> 01:48:10,291
in, especially looking at fishing.

1395
01:48:10,625 --> 01:48:11,791
A lot of people may see, oh, they're the

1396
01:48:11,791 --> 01:48:13,750
overseers. They're gonna out people.

1397
01:48:13,958 --> 01:48:16,041
They're gonna be more of an advocacy and

1398
01:48:16,041 --> 01:48:17,875
activism organization. Then they come out

1399
01:48:17,875 --> 01:48:19,041
and they say, no, this is what we do. And

1400
01:48:19,041 --> 01:48:21,000
they show people, they execute what they

1401
01:48:21,000 --> 01:48:21,625
do and how well they perform.

1402
01:48:21,666 --> 01:48:24,125
And they just go show now where they're

1403
01:48:24,125 --> 01:48:25,708
at a point where countries are coming to

1404
01:48:25,708 --> 01:48:27,333
them like, hey, you know, we're here,

1405
01:48:27,333 --> 01:48:29,083
you're working on, you know, transparency

1406
01:48:29,083 --> 01:48:31,250
and fishing vessel tracking. Hey, can we

1407
01:48:31,250 --> 01:48:32,666
find out how you're doing that? Because,

1408
01:48:32,666 --> 01:48:34,583
you know, we have these policies and we

1409
01:48:34,583 --> 01:48:35,583
want to make sure that we're doing it

1410
01:48:35,583 --> 01:48:37,125
properly and you've been working on it.

1411
01:48:37,125 --> 01:48:37,625
They've specialized in it.

1412
01:48:37,666 --> 01:48:40,625
I can't tell you enough how little

1413
01:48:40,625 --> 01:48:42,125
resources some countries have, even

1414
01:48:42,125 --> 01:48:44,125
including Canada, my own. We don't have a

1415
01:48:44,125 --> 01:48:45,666
lot of staff when it comes to government

1416
01:48:45,666 --> 01:48:47,583
and, you know, governments like to cut so

1417
01:48:47,583 --> 01:48:49,333
they lower their resources. So we don't

1418
01:48:49,333 --> 01:48:51,083
have a lot of people with eyes on fishing

1419
01:48:51,083 --> 01:48:53,291
and trying to combat overfishing here in

1420
01:48:53,291 --> 01:48:54,750
Canada, as well as other places in the

1421
01:48:54,750 --> 01:48:55,625
world and other countries in the world.

1422
01:48:55,666 --> 01:48:59,000
And so it's difficult to be able to just

1423
01:48:59,000 --> 01:49:00,000
have people do it and have those

1424
01:49:00,000 --> 01:49:01,958
resources do it. You need technology to

1425
01:49:01,958 --> 01:49:02,958
help you out. And that's what we

1426
01:49:02,958 --> 01:49:04,416
discussed here. And I thought I was

1427
01:49:04,416 --> 01:49:06,250
addressing very, very well. I'm very

1428
01:49:06,250 --> 01:49:09,000
enthusiastic about what can become and

1429
01:49:09,000 --> 01:49:11,125
how AI and data learning and machine

1430
01:49:11,125 --> 01:49:13,458
learning is working to help address

1431
01:49:13,458 --> 01:49:14,625
things quickly and appropriately.

1432
01:49:15,166 --> 01:49:16,708
So that's going to be a lot of fun. So if

1433
01:49:16,708 --> 01:49:18,333
you have any questions or comments, you

1434
01:49:18,333 --> 01:49:19,666
can leave in the comments below. And if

1435
01:49:19,666 --> 01:49:20,750
you're watching this on YouTube or you

1436
01:49:20,750 --> 01:49:22,875
can DM me at how to protect the ocean on

1437
01:49:22,875 --> 01:49:23,666
Instagram. That's at

1438
01:49:23,666 --> 01:49:24,583
how to protect the ocean.

1439
01:49:24,666 --> 01:49:26,333
Or you can go to our speak up for blue

1440
01:49:26,333 --> 01:49:28,791
dot com site, hit the contact us, send me

1441
01:49:28,791 --> 01:49:30,125
an email. I'd love to hear from you. It

1442
01:49:30,125 --> 01:49:31,791
goes right to my personal email. I'll

1443
01:49:31,791 --> 01:49:33,583
answer back within a week because I do

1444
01:49:33,583 --> 01:49:35,041
get a lot of emails and I'm busy, but I

1445
01:49:35,041 --> 01:49:36,625
would love to chat with you. That's the

1446
01:49:36,625 --> 01:49:38,625
whole point there. So thank you so much.

1447
01:49:38,625 --> 01:49:40,375
I do appreciate you listening. I do

1448
01:49:40,375 --> 01:49:42,250
appreciate you joining us and I'll put

1449
01:49:42,250 --> 01:49:43,541
all the links to Google fishing watch

1450
01:49:43,541 --> 01:49:45,416
that you need to learn about. And I want

1451
01:49:45,416 --> 01:49:46,666
to thank you for joining me on today's

1452
01:49:46,666 --> 01:49:48,083
episode of the how to protect the ocean

1453
01:49:48,083 --> 01:49:50,000
podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from

1454
01:49:50,000 --> 01:49:51,375
the true North strong and free. Have a

1455
01:49:51,375 --> 01:49:52,791
great day. We'll talk to you next time

1456
01:49:52,791 --> 01:49:53,666
and have a conservation.