Surfacing Secrets: Mavericks and Visionaries

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We shall not cease from exploration and

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the end of all our exploring will be to

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arrive where we started and know the

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place for the first time.

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Arrive through the unknown remembered

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gate where the last of earth left to

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discover as that which was the beginning.

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At the source of the longest river, the

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voice of a hidden waterfall, not known

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because not looked for, but heard, half

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heard, between two waves of the sea.

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Hey everybody, welcome back to another

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exciting episode of the How to Protect

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the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew

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Lewin. This is the podcast where you find

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out what's happening with the ocean, how

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you can speak up for the ocean and what

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you can do to live for a

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better ocean by taking action.

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Look, the ocean is a difficult thing to

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understand. It is so big, it is so vast.

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70% of our planet's surface is the ocean,

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yet 5% of it has been explored.

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We need to know the ocean because it

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affects nearly everything on this planet.

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The ocean regulates the global climate

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system, the weather and even the amount

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of oxygen we have to breathe. Half of the

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world's oxygen production comes from the

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ocean. Most earthquakes occur in the

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ocean. So monitoring for seismic activity

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and tsunamis helps us

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prepare for these natural hazards.

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Understanding how the ocean is changing

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also helps us prepare for climate change

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impacts to ocean biodiversity and our own

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food security. However, it's really

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difficult to gather all that data if you

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don't have the infrastructure in place.

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In comes Ocean Networks Canada or ONC for

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short. Canada's National Ocean

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Observatory. Today, ONC operates high

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tech cable observatories on the Pacific,

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Atlantic and Arctic coast of Canada and

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even in the Southern Ocean that provide live, continuous, and

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data about how the ocean is changing. But

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it wasn't always that way. In fact, up

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until 1990s, ocean science was done very

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differently. I'd like to share with you a

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clip from the World Ocean Council Ocean

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Titans film series called Beyond the

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Abyss Ocean Intelligence for a

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Sustainable Planet. In this film about

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the Ocean Networks Canada, it's president

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and CEO, Kate Moran explains how maverick

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scientists turn the idea of continuous

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real time ocean

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monitoring into a reality.

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Ocean Networks Canada was founded by

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three mavericks in oceanography who

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decided that we needed to put sensors in

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the ocean so we could understand it in

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real time. Prior to Ocean Networks

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Canada, data was collected on ships here

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and there, one point at one time, and

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then the next day the ocean changes. So

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we couldn't get an understanding of the

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full picture of the ocean.

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University of Victoria professors, Emory

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is Verena to Nickliff and Chris Barnes

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were two of those founding visionaries of

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ONC 19 years ago. They were the directors

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of ONC's two major cable observatories

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off the west coast of British Columbia,

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Venus and Neptune. They were soon joined

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by other mavericks all driven by a spirit

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of adventure and discovery.

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It's a bit of a dream of mine, not only

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to be joined by folks from Oceans

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Networks Canada on the podcast, but also

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to be able to kick off this new series,

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Surfacing Secrets, Explore the Ocean,

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Know the Planet. One episode a month for

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the next 12 months talking about the

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innovative work that's being done at

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Ocean Networks Canada and its partners.

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Today I am absolutely delighted to

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welcome three ocean science Mavericks to

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the podcast. Kate Moran, ONC's president

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CEO, Benoit Piran, ONC's corporate

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innovation and technology officer and a

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key architect behind the digital and

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physical infrastructure that makes ONC

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sensor, video and sound data accessible

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to anyone anywhere in the world.

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And John Delaney, a professor emeritus

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from the University of Washington in the

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United States, one of the original

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Mavericks, an oceanographer whose early

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ideas about a cable network of deep ocean

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sensors helped revolutionize science

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today. Here is the interview with Kate

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Moran, Benoit Piran and John Delaney.

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Enjoy the interview and

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I will talk to you after.

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Hey Kate, hey Benoit, hey John, welcome

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to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Are you ready to talk

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about Ocean Networks Canada?

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We are. Absolutely. Wonderful. I am very,

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very excited about this. This has been on

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a bucket list of mine for quite some time

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to have not all, not only all three of

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you on the podcast, but to have a series

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where we can really dive deep into Ocean

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Networks Canada and find out more about

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how it came to be, what it's all about

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and what you have planned in the future and all the projects that we've done.

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And I feel like one episode is not

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enough. So this is a kickoff of a series

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that we're going to do for this for this

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podcast, which I'm very, very excited to

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do and to meet all three of you to talk

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about the origins today of Ocean Networks

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Canada. I've seen a lot of videos. I've

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seen your careers as you've gone through

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and seeing it on on on not only the website, but on social media and so forth.

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And I've been very happy to be able to

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watch that. And now I get to talk to you.

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So this is a very huge. This is a huge

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pleasure for me. And we're going to get

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into all of how and see got together and

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became own see as it is today. But before

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we do, why don't we find out a little bit

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about yourself? So why don't you just let

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us know who you are and what you do. So Kate, we'll start off with you.

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Well, sure. My name is Kate Moran. I'm

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president and CEO of Ocean Networks

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Canada. And I'm an ocean engineer

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oceanographer and I've been working in

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the ocean for my entire career. Happy to

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be here. Thanks for inviting us. You bet. And Benoit.

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Yeah. So my name is been appearing a

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corporate innovation and technology

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officer at Ocean Network Canada. Now I've

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been with Ocean Networks Canada and

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helping build the Neptune Observatory

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System in its data management since 2004.

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since 2004. I was born in Belgium. I

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lived in Germany

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supporting data management

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for astronomers for almost as long as

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I've been here at Ocean Works Canada.

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And John. Yeah I'm a retired professor

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from the University of Washington

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School of Oceanography and I kind of

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started my career as a geologist

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mapping limestones in the Shenandoah

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Valley and then got a PhD at the

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University of Arizona and my first job

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and only job I ever had was working at

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the University of Washington and took the

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job in oceanography before I'd ever

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been to sea so it was a great eye-opener

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when I first went to sea in

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in 2020 or sorry 1980 had my first Alvin

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dive so since then I've been studying

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underwater volcanoes

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offshore here and around the world and I

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was involved in developing

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the fiber optic cable that

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goes out of Oregon across the Wanda Fuka

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tectonic plate as a

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complement to what ONZ has done in the

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Neptune program. You know you all have

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had such amazing careers even before you

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started with ONZ so I'd love to hear a

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little bit about how you just

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briefly how you all got started in your

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careers. Okay let's start with you you

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know you grew up in in Pittsburgh and you

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know being an ocean

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engineer was that always

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something on you on your mind is that

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always a dream of yours to do that or was

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that something that changed throughout

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your academic career.

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Yeah well I actually grew up in eastern

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Pennsylvania but went went and took an

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engineering degree at the University of

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Pittsburgh and I I did that because of

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the fact that it was the beginning of

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Earth Day and when I was in high school

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and I was applying for University and my

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physics teacher whose name was I will

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always remember was Mr.

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Missle. He he said I should go into

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engineering and I didn't know what that

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was so I it was in the days when you

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wrote that wrote and got your catalogs

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and the University of Pittsburgh actually

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had environmental engineering as part of

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their curriculum so I applied there and

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was accepted so I was really interested

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in and the Earth at that time in terms of

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you know a clean Earth

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and all that kind of thing.

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And then when I graduated I took a job

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working in environmental cleanup for a

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big company that made toilet

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paper and it made me crazy.

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I quit and I took advice from another

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professor of Pittsburgh to go to graduate

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school in ocean engineering in Rhode

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Island and I went to see for the first

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time in January of the first year I was

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there in the North Atlantic and got

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terribly seasick but

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fell in love with it.

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So that's how I guess. Do you do you

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still get seasick to this day?

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Well it's just you suggested the first

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day. Yeah. I you know I've developed a

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technique. You know, all teens don't lie

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down. Go out on deck a lot. Gotcha. Get

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the fresh air. Mm hmm. Yeah. Nice. Nice.

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Okay. Ben, well, how about yourself? What

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really got you started to learning more

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and working more within the ocean coming

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from Belgium and moving and

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living in Germany for a bit?

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Well, my degree was in computer science.

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Okay. And so but but I had always had a

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very strong interest in the sciences and

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decided that I wanted to continue to

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support science and I was lucky enough to

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find a job with a large international

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organization in Europe that was meant to

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deliver telescopes to the astromechal

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community in the world.

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And so after a co-op term there, they

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decided to hire me, which was great.

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And I started eventually long story short

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build the data management system for on

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the one hand the Hubble Space Telescope

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copy in Europe and then continuing on to

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building the local data archive for the

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European Southern

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Observatory, which was my employer.

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After a number of years, the family

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needed to change. I had essentially

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applied to positions here, a place that I

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already knew through my

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connections in astronomy.

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And I guess fate had it that I had two

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job offers here in Victoria in 2004, one

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of which was to either join the local

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observatory, which was good.

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And the other one was to join the

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University of Victoria to start building

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the data management for this new nascent

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observatory that was

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going to be called Neptune.

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And you know, you still like to join

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things you knew and start from scratch.

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So this is what I decided

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to do. The rest is history.

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Starting something from scratch after

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01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:59,791
having such a great career already was

270
01:10:59,791 --> 01:11:02,750
did you find it challenging in terms of

271
01:11:02,750 --> 01:11:04,583
coming one to a different country,

272
01:11:04,583 --> 01:11:06,083
different continent and then being able

273
01:11:06,083 --> 01:11:08,291
to start over not only from a family

274
01:11:08,291 --> 01:11:09,208
perspective, but also

275
01:11:09,208 --> 01:11:10,125
with this this new project?

276
01:11:10,166 --> 01:11:12,750
That was definitely a challenge. But I

277
01:11:12,750 --> 01:11:15,875
was I was ready for it, essentially. And

278
01:11:15,875 --> 01:11:20,083
yeah, it was it was not easy, perhaps

279
01:11:20,083 --> 01:11:21,791
more difficult than I anticipated

280
01:11:21,791 --> 01:11:26,083
initially due to a number of factors that

281
01:11:26,083 --> 01:11:28,083
I can go into a later

282
01:11:28,083 --> 01:11:29,125
stage if that's necessary.

283
01:11:30,166 --> 01:11:34,625
But in the end, you know, I'm still very

284
01:11:34,625 --> 01:11:36,583
happy and proud of all the

285
01:11:36,583 --> 01:11:39,416
accomplishments that I made both in my

286
01:11:39,416 --> 01:11:43,041
previous career. And now, of course, I

287
01:11:43,041 --> 01:11:44,500
still with ocean networks, Canada.

288
01:11:44,875 --> 01:11:47,125
Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a phenomenal

289
01:11:47,125 --> 01:11:49,083
career if you if you ask me, just in

290
01:11:49,083 --> 01:11:50,541
terms of what you've been able to

291
01:11:50,541 --> 01:11:52,125
accomplish in such a short time. So it's that's that's amazing.

292
01:11:52,166 --> 01:11:56,166
John, how about yourself? You know, how

293
01:11:56,166 --> 01:11:58,583
did you how did you get started in terms

294
01:11:58,583 --> 01:12:00,416
of you kind of mentioned it a little bit

295
01:12:00,416 --> 01:12:03,333
before, but what really got you to

296
01:12:03,333 --> 01:12:05,666
wanting to work in the ocean?

297
01:12:06,333 --> 01:12:08,125
Well, I took a job in oceanography.

298
01:12:08,125 --> 01:12:14,875
That'll do it. Then it dawned on me that, well, perhaps

299
01:12:14,875 --> 01:12:18,166
I should go to sea. I was very fortunate

300
01:12:18,166 --> 01:12:22,000
to be invited by a fellow from Woods Hole

301
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:25,208
named Bill Brian to go on a cruise that

302
01:12:25,208 --> 01:12:28,166
he and his colleagues had put together in

303
01:12:28,166 --> 01:12:30,125
the cane fracture zone somewhere between Bermuda and the Azores.

304
01:12:30,166 --> 01:12:37,583
And we went and dredged rocks from the

305
01:12:37,583 --> 01:12:43,000
sea floor. It's a it's a not exactly a

306
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:44,958
delicate instrument to

307
01:12:44,958 --> 01:12:46,666
dredge the sea floor. You right.

308
01:12:47,375 --> 01:12:51,791
It's a brutal act with a with a huge

309
01:12:51,791 --> 01:12:53,833
weight on the end of a long wire.

310
01:12:54,625 --> 01:12:57,000
But I loved it. I was just like Kate,

311
01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:59,416
it's been my first time and I had been

312
01:12:59,416 --> 01:13:02,208
working in a laboratory at Johnson Space

313
01:13:02,208 --> 01:13:05,208
Center before that. And before that, I

314
01:13:05,208 --> 01:13:06,666
had worked in the mining industry. I used

315
01:13:06,666 --> 01:13:08,791
to be an economic geologist, which should

316
01:13:08,791 --> 01:13:10,250
resonate with some of

317
01:13:10,250 --> 01:13:13,000
your Canadian colleagues.

318
01:13:13,375 --> 01:13:13,583
Yes.

319
01:13:14,166 --> 01:13:16,000
I was looking for copper, lead, zinc,

320
01:13:16,333 --> 01:13:18,125
gold, silver, that type of thing. Right.

321
01:13:18,625 --> 01:13:20,750
But once I had taken the job at the

322
01:13:20,750 --> 01:13:23,750
University of Washington, I just and had

323
01:13:23,750 --> 01:13:28,541
gone to see on this one cruise in 1978. I

324
01:13:28,541 --> 01:13:29,833
never looked back. I never

325
01:13:29,833 --> 01:13:31,500
went back into a laboratory.

326
01:13:32,500 --> 01:13:35,291
I was better on the fantail shoveling

327
01:13:35,291 --> 01:13:39,041
rocks than I was twirling the dials on a

328
01:13:39,041 --> 01:13:41,708
secondary ion mass spectrometer, which is

329
01:13:41,708 --> 01:13:47,666
what I was doing. And so it just became I

330
01:13:47,666 --> 01:13:48,500
don't know, I just it

331
01:13:48,500 --> 01:13:50,125
just blossomed for me.

332
01:13:50,166 --> 01:13:54,291
And, and we, of course, in Seattle, you

333
01:13:54,291 --> 01:13:57,916
know, just south of Vancouver Island, we

334
01:13:57,916 --> 01:13:59,541
were close to the one to Fuka tectonic

335
01:13:59,541 --> 01:14:01,041
plate, but not very many people had been

336
01:14:01,041 --> 01:14:04,416
out there. So proposals to go out and

337
01:14:04,416 --> 01:14:08,458
literally dredge with a basically a

338
01:14:08,458 --> 01:14:10,625
gigantic chain bag, we dragged along the

339
01:14:10,625 --> 01:14:11,750
seafloor and picked up rocks.

340
01:14:12,166 --> 01:14:15,833
And one of the rocks we picked up was in

341
01:14:15,833 --> 01:14:19,166
the endeavor segment of the one to Fuka

342
01:14:19,166 --> 01:14:22,541
Ridge, but it had two worms in it. It was

343
01:14:22,541 --> 01:14:25,291
not it was not lava. It was a chunk of

344
01:14:25,291 --> 01:14:28,291
sulfide. It was about something like 85

345
01:14:28,291 --> 01:14:30,041
pounds actually came out.

346
01:14:30,166 --> 01:14:32,916
And Margaret Tyvee from Woods Hole

347
01:14:32,916 --> 01:14:35,500
actually did her master's thesis on those

348
01:14:35,500 --> 01:14:39,208
rocks. So that's when I first it's that's

349
01:14:39,208 --> 01:14:40,958
as close as I came to where these folks

350
01:14:40,958 --> 01:14:44,666
have taken last 35 years

351
01:14:44,666 --> 01:14:47,541
or more and have worked.

352
01:14:48,166 --> 01:14:51,958
It was in Canadian waters that one of the

353
01:14:51,958 --> 01:14:55,208
extensions of their cable goes to exactly

354
01:14:55,208 --> 01:14:57,958
that that hydrothermal vent field, which

355
01:14:57,958 --> 01:14:59,416
I spent a large

356
01:14:59,416 --> 01:15:00,916
fraction of my life studying.

357
01:15:02,333 --> 01:15:05,000
I can I dream about it at night.

358
01:15:05,333 --> 01:15:07,333
It's true. It's really weird.

359
01:15:08,166 --> 01:15:09,916
If you've never had submarine

360
01:15:09,916 --> 01:15:10,791
hydrothermal system

361
01:15:10,791 --> 01:15:12,625
dreams, you've missed something.

362
01:15:13,166 --> 01:15:14,666
You haven't lived until you have those

363
01:15:14,666 --> 01:15:17,208
types of dreams. I get it.

364
01:15:17,958 --> 01:15:20,750
Now it's interesting to see all three of

365
01:15:20,750 --> 01:15:23,833
you come from such a diverse background

366
01:15:23,833 --> 01:15:25,666
to be able to work together. Obviously,

367
01:15:25,666 --> 01:15:27,625
you have a much larger team as well.

368
01:15:28,416 --> 01:15:30,791
But to be able to work and be able to

369
01:15:30,791 --> 01:15:33,250
come up with with a concept like this.

370
01:15:34,166 --> 01:15:38,166
John, you did a Ted talk in I believe it

371
01:15:38,166 --> 01:15:40,791
was in 2010. I think it was at Sylvia

372
01:15:40,791 --> 01:15:43,083
Earls Ted X talk if I remember correctly,

373
01:15:43,291 --> 01:15:45,625
you did a Ted talk talking about this

374
01:15:45,625 --> 01:15:49,041
system of basically a data observatory

375
01:15:49,041 --> 01:15:51,500
beneath the sea, but well beneath the sea

376
01:15:51,500 --> 01:15:54,375
that a lot of people weren't really

377
01:15:54,375 --> 01:15:55,958
thinking about at that time with the

378
01:15:55,958 --> 01:15:57,125
technology that was coming around.

379
01:15:57,166 --> 01:16:01,791
Where did that thought come from and and

380
01:16:01,791 --> 01:16:04,000
and how did it go from just sort of a

381
01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:05,541
thought to something

382
01:16:05,541 --> 01:16:07,666
of what we see today?

383
01:16:08,666 --> 01:16:13,458
Well, the 2010 talk was on a ship in the

384
01:16:13,458 --> 01:16:16,333
Galapagos. It was a party as a party that

385
01:16:16,333 --> 01:16:17,958
Sylvia decided to have.

386
01:16:18,166 --> 01:16:21,666
And she gave her Ted talk in 2009 and

387
01:16:21,666 --> 01:16:23,250
somebody walked out of the audience and

388
01:16:23,250 --> 01:16:24,791
handed her a million dollar check and

389
01:16:24,791 --> 01:16:25,125
said, what do you want to do with it?

390
01:16:25,166 --> 01:16:30,375
Wow. And so she's a party on somebody

391
01:16:30,375 --> 01:16:34,833
else canceled and I was I was inserted at

392
01:16:34,833 --> 01:16:38,250
the last minute. Anyway, I had also lived

393
01:16:38,250 --> 01:16:40,125
in the Galapagos for six months back in

394
01:16:40,125 --> 01:16:43,125
1972 70 and 72 inside the volcanoes.

395
01:16:44,166 --> 01:16:46,833
That's when I first got wet my appetite,

396
01:16:46,833 --> 01:16:54,041
so to speak for volcanoes. But in I had

397
01:16:54,041 --> 01:16:56,458
started a program within the United

398
01:16:56,458 --> 01:16:58,458
States that was called the Ridge program.

399
01:16:58,458 --> 01:17:01,625
R I D G E, which is Ridge

400
01:17:01,625 --> 01:17:04,000
interdisciplinary global experiments with

401
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:05,125
a call it much of colleagues.

402
01:17:05,166 --> 01:17:09,375
And we the goal was to study submarine

403
01:17:09,375 --> 01:17:11,708
hydrothermal systems and the active

404
01:17:11,708 --> 01:17:14,250
volcanic systems that supported them and

405
01:17:14,250 --> 01:17:18,791
and it was funded for a full 20 years by

406
01:17:18,791 --> 01:17:19,916
the National Science Foundation.

407
01:17:20,166 --> 01:17:24,791
So that was a lot of fun. But toward the

408
01:17:24,791 --> 01:17:26,333
I guess somewhere in the vicinity of

409
01:17:26,333 --> 01:17:32,708
1991, I was at the American Geophysical

410
01:17:32,708 --> 01:17:36,458
Union meeting in San San Francisco and

411
01:17:36,458 --> 01:17:38,541
sitting in a bar with a guy named Alan

412
01:17:38,541 --> 01:17:40,916
Chave, who was part of this program.

413
01:17:41,166 --> 01:17:44,041
And I was complaining about how hard it

414
01:17:44,041 --> 01:17:46,291
is to be in the submarine and look out

415
01:17:46,291 --> 01:17:48,250
the window, which is three or four inches

416
01:17:48,250 --> 01:17:51,750
thick and about as big around as that.

417
01:17:52,291 --> 01:17:54,125
Yeah. And not be able to touch the rocks

418
01:17:54,125 --> 01:17:56,333
because I've been field geologists. I was

419
01:17:56,333 --> 01:17:59,291
used to reaching and you can't you can

420
01:17:59,291 --> 01:18:00,416
see it, but you can't touch.

421
01:18:01,166 --> 01:18:02,583
And I guess, you know, the first time

422
01:18:02,583 --> 01:18:06,125
around your, you know, you and my first

423
01:18:06,125 --> 01:18:09,333
dives were in 4000 feet of 4000 meters.

424
01:18:09,708 --> 01:18:11,208
Wow. Water on on the

425
01:18:11,208 --> 01:18:12,333
Mid Atlantic Ridge and so.

426
01:18:12,916 --> 01:18:14,833
So I was complaining to him and he said,

427
01:18:14,833 --> 01:18:15,791
well, you know, there's something new

428
01:18:15,791 --> 01:18:18,750
going on at Bell Labs and it's called

429
01:18:18,750 --> 01:18:22,041
fiber optic cables and we have recently

430
01:18:22,041 --> 01:18:25,166
laid a cable across the Atlantic, which I

431
01:18:25,166 --> 01:18:26,250
think was called tat eight.

432
01:18:28,166 --> 01:18:32,625
And and he said, and now they're getting

433
01:18:32,625 --> 01:18:34,208
rid of some of the old cables. Maybe we

434
01:18:34,208 --> 01:18:36,250
could pick one up and do something with

435
01:18:36,250 --> 01:18:38,041
it. And that was the beginning of the

436
01:18:38,041 --> 01:18:41,291
idea from my point of view. And so long

437
01:18:41,291 --> 01:18:42,833
story short, it's too late

438
01:18:42,833 --> 01:18:44,125
for a long story to be short.

439
01:18:45,166 --> 01:18:48,666
We finally got funds from the National

440
01:18:48,666 --> 01:18:51,666
Science Foundation and we committed

441
01:18:51,666 --> 01:18:53,583
ourselves to working very closely with

442
01:18:53,583 --> 01:18:55,416
our Canadian colleagues because my target

443
01:18:55,416 --> 01:18:57,208
was the one that took a tectonic plate

444
01:18:57,208 --> 01:18:59,416
and I think let's just turn

445
01:18:59,416 --> 01:19:00,125
the old thing into a laboratory.

446
01:19:01,166 --> 01:19:03,875
And so we spent a lot of time with our

447
01:19:03,875 --> 01:19:07,791
Canadian colleagues and we were about to

448
01:19:07,791 --> 01:19:10,666
launch things together and then 9 11

449
01:19:10,666 --> 01:19:15,000
happened. Our budget collapsed and the

450
01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:16,833
Canadians got their money that same year

451
01:19:16,833 --> 01:19:19,083
with the proviso that they

452
01:19:19,083 --> 01:19:21,125
had to move ahead aggressively.

453
01:19:21,166 --> 01:19:26,375
And sadly, the two programs diverged. We

454
01:19:26,375 --> 01:19:30,083
never got our money until 2009. So it

455
01:19:30,083 --> 01:19:32,875
took a long time. And so that's I'm

456
01:19:32,875 --> 01:19:36,791
hoping that I can capture the interest of

457
01:19:36,791 --> 01:19:40,291
Canadians to play together in a bigger

458
01:19:40,291 --> 01:19:42,125
sandbox than we have been individually.

459
01:19:43,166 --> 01:19:44,708
Yeah, I'm gonna stop there. There's a

460
01:19:44,708 --> 01:19:49,083
lot. You know, you ask an Irishman to

461
01:19:49,083 --> 01:19:51,500
tell a story and you really

462
01:19:51,500 --> 01:19:52,625
have to give him a time limit.

463
01:19:53,166 --> 01:19:56,458
I love it. I think it's great. I love it.

464
01:19:56,458 --> 01:19:58,583
Kate, just kind of continue on with that

465
01:19:58,583 --> 01:20:01,166
as as John was mentioning, you know, he's

466
01:20:01,166 --> 01:20:02,458
trying to build his program. It got

467
01:20:02,458 --> 01:20:04,208
delayed. But then the Canadian program

468
01:20:04,208 --> 01:20:07,000
happened. Was that money that that really

469
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:08,125
birthed ONC at the time?

470
01:20:08,166 --> 01:20:12,000
Well, I wasn't here at that time. So that

471
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:14,333
was two I call I called John Delania

472
01:20:14,333 --> 01:20:15,750
Maverick and the two people that were

473
01:20:15,750 --> 01:20:18,083
here Mavericks, Marina, Toni Cliff, and

474
01:20:18,083 --> 01:20:20,750
Chris Barnes and both Chris and Verena

475
01:20:20,750 --> 01:20:22,958
were the recipients of funding, mostly

476
01:20:22,958 --> 01:20:25,125
Chris for the Neptune Canada at that time

477
01:20:25,125 --> 01:20:26,083
was called Neptune Canada.

478
01:20:26,166 --> 01:20:30,416
Right. And it was from a relatively new

479
01:20:30,416 --> 01:20:32,750
funding mechanism in Canada called the

480
01:20:32,750 --> 01:20:35,166
Canada Foundation for Innovation. And

481
01:20:35,166 --> 01:20:37,541
they developed a new program that was

482
01:20:37,541 --> 01:20:40,083
called the International Competition. And

483
01:20:40,083 --> 01:20:42,791
it was quite a rigorous competition. And

484
01:20:42,791 --> 01:20:45,083
Chris, through Chris's leadership, they

485
01:20:45,083 --> 01:20:46,458
won that award to

486
01:20:46,458 --> 01:20:47,625
basically build Neptune.

487
01:20:49,166 --> 01:20:52,541
So that was and they got on with it. They

488
01:20:52,541 --> 01:20:55,041
moved ahead, worked with Alcatel and then

489
01:20:55,041 --> 01:20:58,041
arrived several or three years after in

490
01:20:58,041 --> 01:21:01,500
2004. Is that right? Yeah, I guess it was

491
01:21:01,500 --> 01:21:03,583
part of the very first people to be hired

492
01:21:03,583 --> 01:21:05,958
for the Neptune Observatory

493
01:21:05,958 --> 01:21:07,125
establishment. Right.

494
01:21:08,166 --> 01:21:11,333
Yeah. And so that so that started the

495
01:21:11,333 --> 01:21:14,250
work of designing, engaging the science

496
01:21:14,250 --> 01:21:17,833
community to decide on sites where should

497
01:21:17,833 --> 01:21:21,500
the nodes go? Of course, John's dream

498
01:21:21,500 --> 01:21:23,875
came true when the Endeavor segment of

499
01:21:23,875 --> 01:21:26,375
the Wanda Fooker Ridge was part of the of

500
01:21:26,375 --> 01:21:28,083
this of the build for the

501
01:21:28,083 --> 01:21:29,666
Neptune Canada Observatory.

502
01:21:30,166 --> 01:21:34,125
And then Verena was also in her Maverick

503
01:21:34,125 --> 01:21:36,791
way. I'm testing the technology by

504
01:21:36,791 --> 01:21:39,958
building in 2006 through somewhat

505
01:21:39,958 --> 01:21:42,583
separate funding, a smaller version of

506
01:21:42,583 --> 01:21:45,000
Neptune called Venus in installing the

507
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:48,916
first cable in sandwich inlet in 2006 and

508
01:21:48,916 --> 01:21:51,458
basically demonstrating the concept that

509
01:21:51,458 --> 01:21:54,500
John thought of quite a

510
01:21:54,500 --> 01:21:55,125
number of years earlier.

511
01:21:55,166 --> 01:21:59,583
And then Venus expanded in 2008 into the

512
01:21:59,583 --> 01:22:01,500
Southern Sailor Sea. Some people call it

513
01:22:01,500 --> 01:22:03,708
the Strait of Georgia. And then at the

514
01:22:03,708 --> 01:22:07,375
end of 2009 when John's team finally got

515
01:22:07,375 --> 01:22:09,125
their money, Neptune was turned on.

516
01:22:09,166 --> 01:22:15,708
And so I arrived here in 2011 in

517
01:22:15,708 --> 01:22:19,291
September and I came here first and we

518
01:22:19,291 --> 01:22:21,458
took over Chris's position. Chris decided

519
01:22:21,458 --> 01:22:24,875
to retire as Neptune Canada director and

520
01:22:24,875 --> 01:22:27,208
I became first director of Neptune

521
01:22:27,208 --> 01:22:29,666
Canada. And then the following year I

522
01:22:29,666 --> 01:22:30,541
became president of

523
01:22:30,541 --> 01:22:31,125
Ocean Networks Canada.

524
01:22:31,166 --> 01:22:35,750
Now to have this type of technology, not

525
01:22:35,750 --> 01:22:38,583
only between the US and Canada, but just

526
01:22:38,583 --> 01:22:42,833
for Canada to get that that funding as a

527
01:22:42,833 --> 01:22:45,250
Canadian scientist, we don't have a lot

528
01:22:45,250 --> 01:22:47,291
of funding in Canada to do ocean work.

529
01:22:48,208 --> 01:22:51,833
How important was this for not only the

530
01:22:51,833 --> 01:22:53,125
University of Victoria, but just for

531
01:22:53,125 --> 01:22:55,000
Canada in general to get this funding and

532
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:57,208
to be able to lay these cables to be able

533
01:22:57,208 --> 01:22:58,500
to put this this

534
01:22:58,500 --> 01:23:00,125
technology in the water at a time.

535
01:23:00,333 --> 01:23:03,416
You know, where technology was really

536
01:23:03,416 --> 01:23:06,750
ramping up in terms of, you know, cell

537
01:23:06,750 --> 01:23:08,708
phones and computers and the

538
01:23:08,708 --> 01:23:10,458
miniaturization of computers and the

539
01:23:10,458 --> 01:23:13,250
power that we can hold. How important was

540
01:23:13,250 --> 01:23:14,125
that for for Canada?

541
01:23:14,166 --> 01:23:20,750
Well, it was incredibly significant and I

542
01:23:20,750 --> 01:23:23,750
think the leadership of the University of

543
01:23:23,750 --> 01:23:28,375
Victoria was also part of the alignment

544
01:23:28,375 --> 01:23:30,958
of making this work at the time. The

545
01:23:30,958 --> 01:23:33,000
president of the University, David

546
01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:36,333
Turpin, an oceanographer in his own right

547
01:23:36,333 --> 01:23:39,791
took the chance to actually receive this

548
01:23:39,791 --> 01:23:41,833
money and start this build a risky, risky

549
01:23:41,833 --> 01:23:42,125
thing for a relatively small, great university.

550
01:23:42,166 --> 01:23:46,000
A relatively small university to take on

551
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:49,125
and especially because in Canada, it's

552
01:23:49,125 --> 01:23:52,083
quite different than what what's in terms

553
01:23:52,083 --> 01:23:56,791
of how how funding supports these big

554
01:23:56,791 --> 01:23:59,291
infrastructure projects because in

555
01:23:59,291 --> 01:24:01,083
Canada, the University of Victoria

556
01:24:01,083 --> 01:24:02,750
essentially owns the infrastructure.

557
01:24:03,375 --> 01:24:04,875
So that means the president and the he

558
01:24:04,875 --> 01:24:06,666
had to convince the board of governors

559
01:24:06,666 --> 01:24:08,708
and university to take on this risk. So

560
01:24:08,708 --> 01:24:10,208
in comparison in the United States, when

561
01:24:10,208 --> 01:24:12,333
the National Science Foundation invest in

562
01:24:12,333 --> 01:24:14,750
infrastructure, they have the backstop of

563
01:24:14,750 --> 01:24:18,208
the federal government in terms of, you

564
01:24:18,208 --> 01:24:20,125
know, replacements and support.

565
01:24:20,166 --> 01:24:23,625
So that was a really important aspect. I

566
01:24:23,625 --> 01:24:25,833
don't think if David had not been here

567
01:24:25,833 --> 01:24:29,291
making that case, you could imagine that

568
01:24:29,291 --> 01:24:32,000
that risk may have been too much to

569
01:24:32,000 --> 01:24:34,500
handle. So kudos to the University of

570
01:24:34,500 --> 01:24:36,125
Victoria for stepping up to the plate.

571
01:24:36,166 --> 01:24:41,125
But of course, when I arrived, there was

572
01:24:41,125 --> 01:24:43,833
a competition to provide operating funds

573
01:24:43,833 --> 01:24:45,250
for this infrastructure that was now

574
01:24:45,250 --> 01:24:47,958
built. So it was tempting was turned on

575
01:24:47,958 --> 01:24:51,875
20 2009. And then Chris and the

576
01:24:51,875 --> 01:24:52,833
university scraped together

577
01:24:52,833 --> 01:24:54,125
to get money to operate it.

578
01:24:55,166 --> 01:24:57,250
But there was a competition that's that

579
01:24:57,250 --> 01:24:59,416
was the proposal was due in September of

580
01:24:59,416 --> 01:25:02,166
2011 when I arrived. And then that was

581
01:25:02,166 --> 01:25:05,833
really for four of Canada's major

582
01:25:05,833 --> 01:25:07,958
research infrastructures that have

583
01:25:07,958 --> 01:25:08,708
different name called

584
01:25:08,708 --> 01:25:09,666
major science initiatives.

585
01:25:10,500 --> 01:25:13,750
And to have an ocean program at the top

586
01:25:13,750 --> 01:25:15,958
of the scientific infrastructure game in

587
01:25:15,958 --> 01:25:18,833
Canada was huge. It meant that Canada was

588
01:25:18,833 --> 01:25:21,625
a player in oceanography in a major way.

589
01:25:22,375 --> 01:25:25,333
And so, you know, I arrived here. I was

590
01:25:25,333 --> 01:25:26,125
surprised I got the job.

591
01:25:26,166 --> 01:25:29,916
But I was happy to contribute at least I

592
01:25:29,916 --> 01:25:31,875
contributed one of the aspects of the

593
01:25:31,875 --> 01:25:35,208
proposal that I think has been very

594
01:25:35,208 --> 01:25:37,833
helpful. And I used to I used to be in

595
01:25:37,833 --> 01:25:39,041
the United States has to be the director

596
01:25:39,041 --> 01:25:40,125
of the ocean drilling program.

597
01:25:40,166 --> 01:25:42,291
So I had a good understanding of big

598
01:25:42,291 --> 01:25:45,000
programs and the contracts, the risks

599
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:47,250
associated with them. And so I asked to

600
01:25:47,250 --> 01:25:49,791
make sure that we included in that

601
01:25:49,791 --> 01:25:51,958
proposal, the fact that we could have a

602
01:25:51,958 --> 01:25:53,708
self insurance fund with the university.

603
01:25:54,541 --> 01:25:56,708
Because if we didn't have that when we

604
01:25:56,708 --> 01:25:58,958
have things that cause trials that take

605
01:25:58,958 --> 01:26:01,041
out our nodes, etc, we wouldn't have had

606
01:26:01,041 --> 01:26:03,666
money to to reinstall those things. So

607
01:26:03,666 --> 01:26:06,125
that was my big contribution to a

608
01:26:06,125 --> 01:26:07,541
proposal that had mostly been written.

609
01:26:08,750 --> 01:26:10,708
I would like to say that I was thrilled

610
01:26:10,708 --> 01:26:12,250
when they hired her.

611
01:26:12,583 --> 01:26:14,250
Oh, I can imagine she had a reputation of

612
01:26:14,250 --> 01:26:16,625
getting things done. Yeah, that's that's

613
01:26:16,625 --> 01:26:18,500
important. That's definitely important.

614
01:26:19,875 --> 01:26:22,000
But why like, you know, talking about the

615
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:25,083
technology at the time you coming on and

616
01:26:25,083 --> 01:26:27,416
and being one of the first hires for for

617
01:26:27,416 --> 01:26:30,875
ONC and the Neptune and being able to put

618
01:26:30,875 --> 01:26:33,000
it, you know, in the state that that was

619
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:34,541
in, you know, putting it online.

620
01:26:36,500 --> 01:26:38,333
What was that like for you coming in on

621
01:26:38,333 --> 01:26:40,791
that and and your team to be able to to

622
01:26:40,791 --> 01:26:42,666
do that work? What were the what were the

623
01:26:42,666 --> 01:26:43,708
challenges that you faced

624
01:26:43,708 --> 01:26:45,125
when you when you first started?

625
01:26:45,166 --> 01:26:47,500
So when I first started, of course, this

626
01:26:47,500 --> 01:26:49,541
kit has explained Venus

627
01:26:49,541 --> 01:26:51,458
was in construction mode.

628
01:26:53,250 --> 01:26:55,291
Neptune just got their funding. And so we

629
01:26:55,291 --> 01:26:57,291
were in design mode and trying to figure

630
01:26:57,291 --> 01:26:59,625
out where where bits and pieces of

631
01:26:59,625 --> 01:27:00,791
equipment would be installed.

632
01:27:02,416 --> 01:27:06,875
And at the time there was little interest

633
01:27:06,875 --> 01:27:09,750
or little focus on the data that would be

634
01:27:09,750 --> 01:27:11,875
coming out of that, despite the fact that

635
01:27:11,875 --> 01:27:13,166
obviously and something

636
01:27:13,166 --> 01:27:14,833
that's apparent to everyone.

637
01:27:15,041 --> 01:27:17,083
But the main product of Ocean Networks

638
01:27:17,083 --> 01:27:19,666
Canada in our observatory is the data.

639
01:27:21,166 --> 01:27:23,458
But to get good data, you need resources

640
01:27:23,458 --> 01:27:26,833
to to to not only talk to the instruments

641
01:27:26,833 --> 01:27:29,000
and through software and make these

642
01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:31,375
software packages, but also importantly

643
01:27:31,375 --> 01:27:35,291
to describe the data that would be coming

644
01:27:35,291 --> 01:27:38,250
from these instruments over many years.

645
01:27:38,875 --> 01:27:40,916
The description of these instruments, the

646
01:27:40,916 --> 01:27:42,541
description of their calibration and so

647
01:27:42,541 --> 01:27:44,500
on is essential to do good science

648
01:27:44,500 --> 01:27:47,875
without without that you are unable to

649
01:27:47,875 --> 01:27:49,125
understand those instruments.

650
01:27:49,166 --> 01:27:52,291
So there was a there was a culture shock

651
01:27:52,291 --> 01:27:55,708
whereby people who were interested in

652
01:27:55,708 --> 01:27:57,625
building these facilities like for an

653
01:27:57,625 --> 01:27:59,875
atomic life and her people and Chris

654
01:27:59,875 --> 01:28:02,333
Barnes and the people he hired at the

655
01:28:02,333 --> 01:28:04,500
time, they were so focused on the

656
01:28:04,500 --> 01:28:05,500
hardware aspects

657
01:28:05,500 --> 01:28:07,083
because that's what's visible.

658
01:28:07,166 --> 01:28:09,500
That's what people are excited about.

659
01:28:09,500 --> 01:28:11,208
That's what's not been done before.

660
01:28:12,000 --> 01:28:15,291
And so convincing people like Verena and

661
01:28:15,291 --> 01:28:18,208
Chris that they these proposals for

662
01:28:18,208 --> 01:28:23,000
funding needed a significant dedication

663
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:25,000
to the manpower that

664
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:26,333
would lead the data side.

665
01:28:26,333 --> 01:28:28,000
That was a bit of a challenge.

666
01:28:28,458 --> 01:28:30,916
Eventually, thanks to the good

667
01:28:30,916 --> 01:28:32,541
understanding of Kate of the importance

668
01:28:32,541 --> 01:28:35,583
of that. We got the resources and today.

669
01:28:36,750 --> 01:28:38,500
We'll talk about that later probably. But

670
01:28:38,500 --> 01:28:41,416
today, a third of the staff of Ocean

671
01:28:41,416 --> 01:28:43,958
Networks Canada is dedicated to data. And

672
01:28:43,958 --> 01:28:45,416
so I think this this

673
01:28:45,416 --> 01:28:47,458
shows the importance of it.

674
01:28:47,666 --> 01:28:51,000
But it's also the reward of having done

675
01:28:51,000 --> 01:28:56,041
that is such that we're we're considered

676
01:28:56,041 --> 01:28:59,208
as an example of best practices when it

677
01:28:59,208 --> 01:29:03,000
comes to managing data in science and

678
01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:04,125
particularly in the oceans.

679
01:29:04,166 --> 01:29:07,000
And I would like to add that we had the

680
01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:11,541
same battle at our side. We got plenty of

681
01:29:11,541 --> 01:29:14,708
money for hardware, but we had a struggle

682
01:29:14,708 --> 01:29:19,958
to manage and to strategize and the

683
01:29:19,958 --> 01:29:23,000
architecture for the data flow and the

684
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:24,125
data use by the community.

685
01:29:24,166 --> 01:29:28,291
So that for some reason at that time, you

686
01:29:28,291 --> 01:29:29,916
know, hardware nuts and bolts was seemed

687
01:29:29,916 --> 01:29:31,625
like it was more important. I just want

688
01:29:31,625 --> 01:29:34,041
to inject one thing. And I, Andrew,

689
01:29:34,041 --> 01:29:37,750
forgive me for anything on my own, but I

690
01:29:37,750 --> 01:29:39,416
remember sitting at my desk.

691
01:29:39,708 --> 01:29:41,958
There's there's an irony to this and it's

692
01:29:41,958 --> 01:29:44,166
for me a terrible irony.

693
01:29:46,833 --> 01:29:49,541
I was sitting at my desk in the mid 90s

694
01:29:49,541 --> 01:29:51,000
and I started thinking, if we're going to

695
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:53,500
start a program, we need a name.

696
01:29:54,958 --> 01:29:56,500
And I started thinking Northeast,

697
01:29:56,875 --> 01:30:00,791
Northeast Pacific, Northeast Pacific Time

698
01:30:00,791 --> 01:30:05,166
Series, undersea network experiments.

699
01:30:07,333 --> 01:30:11,125
Jesus, that says new Neptune. And and so

700
01:30:11,125 --> 01:30:14,125
we we we just used it, you know, it just

701
01:30:14,125 --> 01:30:15,708
became what we used in

702
01:30:15,708 --> 01:30:16,833
the late 90s and early.

703
01:30:18,041 --> 01:30:20,291
And then when we started getting our

704
01:30:20,291 --> 01:30:23,791
money, some of the people that Kate had

705
01:30:23,791 --> 01:30:27,166
actually dealt with in Washington, D.C.,

706
01:30:27,791 --> 01:30:30,750
but wisely moved to Canada to some extent

707
01:30:30,750 --> 01:30:32,750
to get away from decided

708
01:30:32,750 --> 01:30:34,125
that this Neptune business.

709
01:30:34,166 --> 01:30:36,625
That sounds too much like John Delaney.

710
01:30:36,625 --> 01:30:40,416
We can't have that. Let's call it the

711
01:30:40,416 --> 01:30:42,000
regional scale nodes.

712
01:30:42,958 --> 01:30:45,416
So the name in the United States is

713
01:30:45,416 --> 01:30:47,250
called the regional scale nodes, which

714
01:30:47,250 --> 01:30:50,208
sounds like something like the bubonic

715
01:30:50,208 --> 01:30:51,125
plague from my point of view.

716
01:30:51,166 --> 01:30:57,333
But I am absolutely thrilled that Neptune

717
01:30:57,333 --> 01:31:02,208
in the hands of Kate actually became as

718
01:31:02,208 --> 01:31:04,000
elegant and as widespread

719
01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:06,125
and heavily used as it has.

720
01:31:06,625 --> 01:31:08,500
Well, I also think, too, when you start

721
01:31:08,500 --> 01:31:10,541
to use the name of planets and we there's

722
01:31:10,541 --> 01:31:12,833
that sort of that idea that's that's

723
01:31:12,833 --> 01:31:14,375
floating around that we know more about

724
01:31:14,375 --> 01:31:16,291
outer space than we do about most of the

725
01:31:16,291 --> 01:31:18,000
ocean, especially the deep ocean that if

726
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:19,291
you name it after a planet, it's like

727
01:31:19,291 --> 01:31:20,125
you're just you're discovering

728
01:31:20,166 --> 01:31:22,791
a planet down underneath or discovering

729
01:31:22,791 --> 01:31:24,291
something new. That's how I take it

730
01:31:24,291 --> 01:31:26,000
anyway. When I when I hear, you know,

731
01:31:26,291 --> 01:31:28,333
like Neptune in Venus. So I like that.

732
01:31:28,791 --> 01:31:30,333
There's a pithier way

733
01:31:30,333 --> 01:31:31,875
of saying that, Andrew.

734
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:36,541
How's that? We know more about the moons

735
01:31:36,541 --> 01:31:37,750
behind than we know

736
01:31:37,750 --> 01:31:38,958
about the ocean's bottom.

737
01:31:42,166 --> 01:31:44,208
That's a new one for me.

738
01:31:44,208 --> 01:31:46,625
I like that. I like that a lot. I was

739
01:31:46,625 --> 01:31:47,541
getting clipped for sure.

740
01:31:49,375 --> 01:31:53,625
I'm on the data side. Absolutely.

741
01:31:54,791 --> 01:31:57,416
Because, you know, Ben was being humble.

742
01:31:58,041 --> 01:32:00,083
I mean, he actually I think there was

743
01:32:00,083 --> 01:32:02,458
pressure to actually hire a company to

744
01:32:02,458 --> 01:32:05,125
develop what now we call the digital

745
01:32:05,125 --> 01:32:06,125
infrastructure or oceans three.

746
01:32:06,166 --> 01:32:10,166
And Ben was pushed to make sure that it

747
01:32:10,166 --> 01:32:13,458
was built in house. And now we have moved

748
01:32:13,458 --> 01:32:16,041
to the stage in Canada that we're

749
01:32:16,041 --> 01:32:19,000
demonstrating to the other operators of

750
01:32:19,000 --> 01:32:21,708
major research infrastructure that it's

751
01:32:21,708 --> 01:32:23,125
not just the physical pieces.

752
01:32:23,166 --> 01:32:25,458
It's that's part of the build. But it's

753
01:32:25,458 --> 01:32:27,916
what we call digital infrastructure. And

754
01:32:27,916 --> 01:32:30,083
so we now at Ocean Network Canada have a

755
01:32:30,083 --> 01:32:32,958
director of physical infrastructure and a

756
01:32:32,958 --> 01:32:34,916
director of digital infrastructure. And

757
01:32:34,916 --> 01:32:37,958
they have importance in terms of how we

758
01:32:37,958 --> 01:32:40,416
deliver for a wide range of stakeholders.

759
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:41,875
Many of us appreciate

760
01:32:41,875 --> 01:32:43,833
what you did. Absolutely.

761
01:32:45,166 --> 01:32:48,750
Thank you. I saw the thread that

762
01:32:48,750 --> 01:32:50,958
represented a contract with a commercial

763
01:32:50,958 --> 01:32:52,333
company as being a

764
01:32:52,333 --> 01:32:55,166
potential open ended money pit.

765
01:32:56,166 --> 01:33:00,416
Oh, no. I had witnessed what had happened

766
01:33:00,416 --> 01:33:02,291
in the US with the

767
01:33:02,291 --> 01:33:03,083
Hubble Space Telescope.

768
01:33:04,375 --> 01:33:06,708
They had hired companies at the time back

769
01:33:06,708 --> 01:33:09,708
in the 80s or the 80s that came to cost

770
01:33:09,708 --> 01:33:13,166
30 million dollars US at the time. They

771
01:33:13,166 --> 01:33:15,291
had to scrap it off completely. Throw it

772
01:33:15,291 --> 01:33:17,875
away and start from scratch hiring their

773
01:33:17,875 --> 01:33:19,208
own people to get done

774
01:33:19,208 --> 01:33:20,541
what they needed done.

775
01:33:21,333 --> 01:33:23,000
And I had similar experience with the

776
01:33:23,000 --> 01:33:26,041
ocean drilling program and had to come in

777
01:33:26,041 --> 01:33:28,541
and basically save the day to get a data

778
01:33:28,541 --> 01:33:30,958
system up and running. So thank you, Ben.

779
01:33:31,416 --> 01:33:32,333
Yes, thank you, Ben.

780
01:33:32,750 --> 01:33:33,750
You're standing there.

781
01:33:35,166 --> 01:33:38,458
Now, you know, once everything is put

782
01:33:38,458 --> 01:33:40,333
together and we have the not only the

783
01:33:40,333 --> 01:33:42,416
hardware infrastructure, but the digital

784
01:33:42,416 --> 01:33:44,916
infrastructure as well and data started

785
01:33:44,916 --> 01:33:46,000
to flow in and we

786
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:47,666
started to see the data.

787
01:33:48,500 --> 01:33:49,708
I think you mentioned earlier, it was it

788
01:33:49,708 --> 01:33:52,625
was hard for people to take the data and

789
01:33:52,625 --> 01:33:54,333
do something with it. Was it was it

790
01:33:54,333 --> 01:33:56,208
difficult to get like disseminate the

791
01:33:56,208 --> 01:33:58,458
data? Was that the idea was this this,

792
01:33:58,666 --> 01:33:59,833
you know, this system

793
01:33:59,833 --> 01:34:01,083
was going to bring in data.

794
01:34:01,166 --> 01:34:03,833
I know a number of different scales and a

795
01:34:03,833 --> 01:34:05,416
number of different topics and

796
01:34:05,416 --> 01:34:08,083
disseminate it to, you know, the

797
01:34:08,083 --> 01:34:10,000
scientific community. Is it was that the

798
01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:12,083
idea or was it to hold it a little bit

799
01:34:12,083 --> 01:34:13,708
and just have people at University of

800
01:34:13,708 --> 01:34:15,583
Victoria and University of Washington and

801
01:34:15,583 --> 01:34:17,625
other universities that contributed money

802
01:34:17,625 --> 01:34:18,958
to it to be able to do it or was it

803
01:34:18,958 --> 01:34:19,125
available to everybody?

804
01:34:20,166 --> 01:34:23,916
So, I think there was a big decision from

805
01:34:23,916 --> 01:34:26,666
the get go that all the data would be

806
01:34:26,666 --> 01:34:29,416
available right away to anyone who wanted

807
01:34:29,416 --> 01:34:31,958
them. And because we have a cable that

808
01:34:31,958 --> 01:34:34,583
connects the instruments to shore, we

809
01:34:34,583 --> 01:34:36,125
could do that in real time.

810
01:34:36,166 --> 01:34:41,000
Right. So, that was that was a basic

811
01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:43,416
principle. Whereas in astronomy where it

812
01:34:43,416 --> 01:34:45,083
came from, there was always this one year

813
01:34:45,083 --> 01:34:46,416
priority period for

814
01:34:46,416 --> 01:34:47,125
all the data that we did.

815
01:34:47,166 --> 01:34:50,416
We decided it was not going to be the

816
01:34:50,416 --> 01:34:53,625
case, except in extremely unusual

817
01:34:53,625 --> 01:34:57,041
circumstances that we would basically

818
01:34:57,041 --> 01:35:00,000
make the data openly available and it it

819
01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:02,083
revealed to be a modern approach that has

820
01:35:02,083 --> 01:35:06,125
been appreciated by even the funding

821
01:35:06,125 --> 01:35:08,083
agencies for sure, because they could see

822
01:35:08,083 --> 01:35:10,125
the multiplication and

823
01:35:10,125 --> 01:35:11,125
leveraging of the funds.

824
01:35:11,166 --> 01:35:14,916
They've devoted to these programs and

825
01:35:14,916 --> 01:35:17,000
make sure that being used by as many

826
01:35:17,000 --> 01:35:18,750
people as possible to maximize the

827
01:35:18,750 --> 01:35:21,708
return. So that was one of the challenges

828
01:35:21,708 --> 01:35:26,000
that we overcame right away. Another one,

829
01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:27,000
if I made it, I could

830
01:35:27,000 --> 01:35:28,125
mention is the fact.

831
01:35:28,166 --> 01:35:33,833
Where it came from where again in

832
01:35:33,833 --> 01:35:35,625
astronomy, you build these large

833
01:35:35,625 --> 01:35:38,250
telescopes are way too big for any

834
01:35:38,250 --> 01:35:40,916
specific individual or even a university

835
01:35:40,916 --> 01:35:43,750
to own. They belong to the entire

836
01:35:43,750 --> 01:35:46,208
community. And so an individual

837
01:35:46,208 --> 01:35:49,125
astronomers is not allowed to operate it.

838
01:35:49,166 --> 01:35:52,500
You have to introduce what they called

839
01:35:52,500 --> 01:35:55,416
service observing. So you don't touch the

840
01:35:55,416 --> 01:35:59,291
dials, essentially. You define what you

841
01:35:59,291 --> 01:36:02,750
want to see observed. We give you you get

842
01:36:02,750 --> 01:36:07,333
a piece of time on the instrument and the

843
01:36:07,333 --> 01:36:09,125
data are collected and hopefully can go

844
01:36:09,125 --> 01:36:10,125
away and do your science.

845
01:36:10,166 --> 01:36:15,500
So whereas that was already done in the

846
01:36:15,500 --> 01:36:19,458
1980s for astronomy when it came to the

847
01:36:19,458 --> 01:36:21,916
ocean until basically

848
01:36:21,916 --> 01:36:23,541
10 20 years ago now.

849
01:36:25,208 --> 01:36:28,041
The modus operandi for researchers was

850
01:36:28,041 --> 01:36:31,166
that they were going to see that we're

851
01:36:31,166 --> 01:36:32,625
going to take their equipments and the

852
01:36:32,625 --> 01:36:34,666
grad students with them. They were going

853
01:36:34,666 --> 01:36:37,250
to be going only in the summer because

854
01:36:37,250 --> 01:36:39,000
that's the only time that you could do

855
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:40,708
anything in the northern hemisphere.

856
01:36:42,166 --> 01:36:44,500
And so we collected data, maybe

857
01:36:44,500 --> 01:36:47,833
transferred the data in the computer, put

858
01:36:47,833 --> 01:36:49,500
it in a drawer until you have time to

859
01:36:49,500 --> 01:36:55,375
look at it. And this culture was

860
01:36:55,375 --> 01:36:57,333
prevailing still at the time. And that's

861
01:36:57,333 --> 01:36:59,541
what another that was another challenge

862
01:36:59,541 --> 01:37:01,500
to convince people that no data

863
01:37:01,500 --> 01:37:03,208
management was important to

864
01:37:03,208 --> 01:37:04,416
maximize the science return.

865
01:37:05,166 --> 01:37:07,583
So again, we had to face the culture

866
01:37:07,583 --> 01:37:11,250
shock. So this or the users had to face

867
01:37:11,250 --> 01:37:12,791
the culture shock that we were trying to

868
01:37:12,791 --> 01:37:16,416
try to impose on them because suddenly we

869
01:37:16,416 --> 01:37:19,250
were making it their disposal tool.

870
01:37:20,166 --> 01:37:22,250
And so that was going to be providing

871
01:37:22,250 --> 01:37:25,041
them a lot of new capabilities, but was

872
01:37:25,041 --> 01:37:27,458
also very much different from what they

873
01:37:27,458 --> 01:37:30,458
were used to deal with in the past. So

874
01:37:30,458 --> 01:37:33,583
another one of the challenges to overcome

875
01:37:33,583 --> 01:37:36,458
in my position at the time.

876
01:37:37,458 --> 01:37:38,583
There are a couple of others that are

877
01:37:38,583 --> 01:37:42,583
really important. One is graduate

878
01:37:42,583 --> 01:37:45,250
students who have a master's thesis to

879
01:37:45,250 --> 01:37:48,125
finish in a year or two. If they're using

880
01:37:48,125 --> 01:37:50,375
data that is flowing out the end of a

881
01:37:50,375 --> 01:37:52,125
garden hose to everyone in the world.

882
01:37:52,833 --> 01:38:01,208
And so that was another cultural wrinkle

883
01:38:01,208 --> 01:38:03,291
within oceanography. And the third

884
01:38:03,291 --> 01:38:06,750
cultural wrinkle is that oceanography,

885
01:38:07,333 --> 01:38:11,333
unlike astronomy, most of the data in

886
01:38:11,333 --> 01:38:12,791
astronomy is one form

887
01:38:12,791 --> 01:38:13,708
or another wavelength.

888
01:38:16,166 --> 01:38:18,416
And so in oceanography, there's the

889
01:38:18,416 --> 01:38:21,833
physics of what you're studying, which

890
01:38:21,833 --> 01:38:24,458
comes in many forms. There's the

891
01:38:24,458 --> 01:38:26,000
chemistry of what you're studying, which

892
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:27,583
comes in other forms and

893
01:38:27,583 --> 01:38:29,291
sloppy water type things.

894
01:38:30,166 --> 01:38:40,250
And so the complexity of oceanography

895
01:38:40,250 --> 01:38:44,541
compared to astronomy is I won't say it's

896
01:38:44,541 --> 01:38:46,583
greater or less, but it's very different.

897
01:38:47,333 --> 01:38:48,791
And so you have all those tangible

898
01:38:48,791 --> 01:38:53,750
elements that in fact what Benoit

899
01:38:53,750 --> 01:38:56,916
referred to is many times chief

900
01:38:56,916 --> 01:38:58,708
scientists and their

901
01:38:58,708 --> 01:38:59,125
immediate acolytes would bring in the

902
01:38:59,166 --> 01:39:03,208
data home and not everybody got to look

903
01:39:03,208 --> 01:39:05,583
at it for as much as a decade, half a

904
01:39:05,583 --> 01:39:09,208
decade sometimes. And so the idea of

905
01:39:09,208 --> 01:39:13,250
having a constant somewhat endless flow

906
01:39:13,250 --> 01:39:14,708
of semi-infinite amount of

907
01:39:14,708 --> 01:39:18,125
information was a great shock.

908
01:39:18,166 --> 01:39:21,500
Shock. And I think Benoit was the

909
01:39:21,500 --> 01:39:24,166
pioneer. Yeah. And Kate's absolutely

910
01:39:24,166 --> 01:39:28,500
right. He is. You're way too modest.

911
01:39:30,166 --> 01:39:30,250
Thanks.

912
01:39:31,166 --> 01:39:33,583
What I want to highlight as well, and I

913
01:39:33,583 --> 01:39:36,500
think you touched on another challenge

914
01:39:36,500 --> 01:39:38,375
that I wanted to raise at some point

915
01:39:38,375 --> 01:39:40,333
during this conversation as well, which

916
01:39:40,333 --> 01:39:43,833
is the diversity of types of data that

917
01:39:43,833 --> 01:39:45,583
would be coming from the observatory and

918
01:39:45,583 --> 01:39:49,583
that from a, I mean, leave the cultural

919
01:39:49,583 --> 01:39:51,375
alone now from a

920
01:39:51,375 --> 01:39:53,458
technological aspects from a

921
01:39:54,166 --> 01:39:58,708
techniques and level of effort

922
01:39:58,708 --> 01:40:01,750
perspective. The fact that we had to deal

923
01:40:01,750 --> 01:40:03,625
with so many different types of data, but

924
01:40:03,625 --> 01:40:06,416
also different types of instruments was

925
01:40:06,416 --> 01:40:09,875
in fact one of the big technical

926
01:40:09,875 --> 01:40:11,500
challenges, essentially something that

927
01:40:11,500 --> 01:40:12,666
would cost us because it

928
01:40:12,666 --> 01:40:14,541
takes a lot of labor to address.

929
01:40:15,166 --> 01:40:18,791
Right. And we needed also to design the

930
01:40:18,791 --> 01:40:20,625
observatories and the data management

931
01:40:20,625 --> 01:40:23,541
system, the digital part of the of the

932
01:40:23,541 --> 01:40:27,500
initiative in a way that would allow for

933
01:40:27,500 --> 01:40:29,583
the existence of many, many different

934
01:40:29,583 --> 01:40:30,583
types of instruments

935
01:40:30,583 --> 01:40:31,125
that would change over time.

936
01:40:31,166 --> 01:40:34,708
That would evolve, that we would not make

937
01:40:34,708 --> 01:40:37,541
ourselves. Also we were the mercy of

938
01:40:37,541 --> 01:40:42,041
commercial companies that would build

939
01:40:42,041 --> 01:40:43,500
those and would decide to

940
01:40:43,500 --> 01:40:47,000
change the nature of on you.

941
01:40:48,083 --> 01:40:49,916
So we had to build a system that was

942
01:40:49,916 --> 01:40:52,500
really flexible and was able to evolve

943
01:40:52,500 --> 01:40:54,791
with instruments, change and

944
01:40:54,791 --> 01:40:56,458
support new types of systems.

945
01:40:57,583 --> 01:41:00,458
And that's why today we have from simple

946
01:41:00,458 --> 01:41:03,416
temperature sensors all the way to 4K

947
01:41:03,416 --> 01:41:07,041
cameras streaming video to hydrophone

948
01:41:07,041 --> 01:41:09,750
streaming sounds from the oceans all the

949
01:41:09,750 --> 01:41:12,875
time. And on top of that, those fancy

950
01:41:12,875 --> 01:41:15,250
current measurement devices that produce

951
01:41:15,250 --> 01:41:18,875
matrices of tons of numbers all the time.

952
01:41:19,416 --> 01:41:21,750
So the structure of the data, their

953
01:41:21,750 --> 01:41:26,000
diversity and the constant change of

954
01:41:26,000 --> 01:41:27,916
techniques and technologies in these

955
01:41:27,916 --> 01:41:31,416
instruments is a challenge. And today

956
01:41:31,416 --> 01:41:34,416
we're, you know, we continue to witness

957
01:41:34,416 --> 01:41:38,000
changes in those techniques. So that's

958
01:41:38,000 --> 01:41:40,583
exciting. It keeps us alive.

959
01:41:42,250 --> 01:41:42,541
Sure.

960
01:41:44,166 --> 01:41:46,541
Our job is not boring. That's, that's for

961
01:41:46,541 --> 01:41:48,250
sure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Always

962
01:41:48,250 --> 01:41:52,083
always adapting right as one does. Let's

963
01:41:52,083 --> 01:41:54,625
talk. I love the talk about the

964
01:41:54,625 --> 01:41:56,375
infrastructure and the data that's coming

965
01:41:56,375 --> 01:41:58,250
in. Let's talk about some of the major

966
01:41:58,250 --> 01:42:00,208
projects that have come out that and

967
01:42:00,208 --> 01:42:02,625
discoveries that have come out from the

968
01:42:02,625 --> 01:42:05,375
data from from ONC. So, okay, you know,

969
01:42:05,375 --> 01:42:07,500
as someone who's obviously the CEO and

970
01:42:07,500 --> 01:42:10,750
president, what what highlights that you

971
01:42:10,750 --> 01:42:12,625
would like the people here on on the

972
01:42:12,625 --> 01:42:13,125
podcast to know about?

973
01:42:13,166 --> 01:42:17,416
In terms of what has come out of of the

974
01:42:17,416 --> 01:42:19,333
data and what projects have been really a

975
01:42:19,333 --> 01:42:22,375
highlight for you personally and for ONC.

976
01:42:23,708 --> 01:42:24,916
Well, I think one of the most important

977
01:42:24,916 --> 01:42:27,125
aspects is now that we have we're a

978
01:42:27,125 --> 01:42:28,666
little bit long in the tooth in terms of

979
01:42:28,666 --> 01:42:30,666
the observatory, we're starting to get

980
01:42:30,666 --> 01:42:34,500
the time that the amount of time to

981
01:42:34,500 --> 01:42:37,583
enable us to understand the climate

982
01:42:37,583 --> 01:42:38,125
impacts on the ocean.

983
01:42:38,166 --> 01:42:42,166
Not that that's something that we want to

984
01:42:42,166 --> 01:42:45,291
herald, but it's really we we have to

985
01:42:45,291 --> 01:42:48,375
understand it to act. And so now we're

986
01:42:48,375 --> 01:42:50,625
actually seeing oxygen changes,

987
01:42:50,625 --> 01:42:53,833
temperature changes. And what's what I'm

988
01:42:53,833 --> 01:42:56,500
happy to say is that because of the fact

989
01:42:56,500 --> 01:42:59,666
that we have real time data, when there

990
01:42:59,666 --> 01:43:00,750
were almost like an

991
01:43:00,750 --> 01:43:03,125
earlier alert system change.

992
01:43:03,416 --> 01:43:06,916
So a couple of summers ago, we saw oxygen

993
01:43:06,916 --> 01:43:09,500
changing at one of our coastal sites that

994
01:43:09,500 --> 01:43:12,000
hadn't happened before that we knew of.

995
01:43:12,583 --> 01:43:14,750
And so that then triggered a whole group

996
01:43:14,750 --> 01:43:17,041
of people to go out and capture more data

997
01:43:17,041 --> 01:43:18,750
to understand that. In fact, the low

998
01:43:18,750 --> 01:43:21,416
auction events that were common at that

999
01:43:21,416 --> 01:43:24,291
time in the offshore, the Pacific

1000
01:43:24,291 --> 01:43:25,041
Northwest of the United

1001
01:43:25,041 --> 01:43:27,125
States was now reaching Canada.

1002
01:43:27,166 --> 01:43:29,208
So understanding these is really

1003
01:43:29,208 --> 01:43:33,166
important to talk about climate change in

1004
01:43:33,166 --> 01:43:36,000
a way that has impact. We also were able

1005
01:43:36,000 --> 01:43:38,375
to monitor the impacts on the coastal

1006
01:43:38,375 --> 01:43:40,583
zone during what was called

1007
01:43:40,583 --> 01:43:42,875
the big heat or the warm blob.

1008
01:43:43,416 --> 01:43:48,708
Yeah. And and that had economic impact in

1009
01:43:48,708 --> 01:43:50,375
both the Canada and the United States. So

1010
01:43:50,375 --> 01:43:53,166
these changes are not only the fact that

1011
01:43:53,166 --> 01:43:56,458
we're seeing life forms moving into new

1012
01:43:56,458 --> 01:43:58,541
environments, but in fact, it is an

1013
01:43:58,541 --> 01:44:00,791
economic impact on the country.

1014
01:44:01,166 --> 01:44:05,833
So I'll just that has now led us to in

1015
01:44:05,833 --> 01:44:10,416
our in our new strategic plan to we have

1016
01:44:10,416 --> 01:44:11,333
three goals. And the third

1017
01:44:11,333 --> 01:44:13,208
one is on on climate action.

1018
01:44:14,166 --> 01:44:15,875
And so what we've now been moving towards

1019
01:44:15,875 --> 01:44:19,125
I'm really proud of are coming up with

1020
01:44:19,125 --> 01:44:23,583
with research areas to work on how we can

1021
01:44:23,583 --> 01:44:25,458
remove CO2 from the atmosphere using

1022
01:44:25,458 --> 01:44:27,708
ocean solutions. Not that we're

1023
01:44:27,708 --> 01:44:29,375
advocating anything as an organization,

1024
01:44:29,375 --> 01:44:32,875
but we're developing observations so that

1025
01:44:32,875 --> 01:44:34,958
we can test these ideas,

1026
01:44:35,833 --> 01:44:36,791
determine their efficacy,

1027
01:44:37,166 --> 01:44:40,083
and then provide information that could

1028
01:44:40,083 --> 01:44:43,083
value them based on the amount of carbon

1029
01:44:43,083 --> 01:44:44,916
that's removed from the atmosphere. So

1030
01:44:44,916 --> 01:44:47,458
that will be an important aspect of how

1031
01:44:47,458 --> 01:44:49,583
we as a scientific community contribute

1032
01:44:49,583 --> 01:44:51,666
to advancing these new technologies.

1033
01:44:52,500 --> 01:44:54,125
But I'm going to stop and just say one

1034
01:44:54,125 --> 01:44:55,666
thing that everyone here at the

1035
01:44:55,666 --> 01:44:57,791
organization is extremely proud of and

1036
01:44:57,791 --> 01:45:00,541
that is the fact that we have starting in

1037
01:45:00,541 --> 01:45:04,500
2012 and it was I arrived as Neptune

1038
01:45:04,500 --> 01:45:06,625
director early September 2011.

1039
01:45:08,166 --> 01:45:11,541
I went to Ben when I said, there's this

1040
01:45:11,541 --> 01:45:13,375
Canadian high Arctic research station

1041
01:45:13,375 --> 01:45:15,583
that was announced by then Prime

1042
01:45:15,583 --> 01:45:18,208
Minister, and two years before and

1043
01:45:18,208 --> 01:45:19,708
there's nothing up there, we should put

1044
01:45:19,708 --> 01:45:21,208
an observatory up there. Okay.

1045
01:45:22,208 --> 01:45:25,958
And he said, Okay, so in 2012 we

1046
01:45:25,958 --> 01:45:28,083
installed the first cable small cable

1047
01:45:28,083 --> 01:45:31,416
observatory in Cambridge by Nunavut. And

1048
01:45:31,416 --> 01:45:35,166
we were, we were not very we were being,

1049
01:45:35,166 --> 01:45:37,208
you know, colonial in

1050
01:45:37,208 --> 01:45:39,083
our ways. Yeah, that way.

1051
01:45:39,166 --> 01:45:41,333
And we put a sea ice sickness monitor on

1052
01:45:41,333 --> 01:45:42,958
it. There's a company in Vancouver Island

1053
01:45:42,958 --> 01:45:44,541
that measures sea ice thickness, because

1054
01:45:44,541 --> 01:45:47,041
what they see I said there. And we

1055
01:45:47,041 --> 01:45:49,375
learned that the community wanted to have

1056
01:45:49,375 --> 01:45:51,791
that sea ice data showcased in the co op

1057
01:45:51,791 --> 01:45:53,666
store, because they needed to know how

1058
01:45:53,666 --> 01:45:55,041
thick the ice was to take the shortcut

1059
01:45:55,166 --> 01:45:57,333
to the airport or go out and hunt on the

1060
01:45:57,333 --> 01:45:59,416
ice. And it was like this big aha moment

1061
01:45:59,416 --> 01:46:02,916
of we need to do this for other coastal

1062
01:46:02,916 --> 01:46:05,416
indigenous communities and that set us on

1063
01:46:05,416 --> 01:46:09,000
this path of much more humbly engaging

1064
01:46:09,000 --> 01:46:11,708
with now almost 40 different coastal

1065
01:46:11,708 --> 01:46:13,041
communities in Canada

1066
01:46:13,041 --> 01:46:14,875
and delivering data that's

1067
01:46:15,166 --> 01:46:35,333
here best introducably to

1068
01:46:45,166 --> 01:46:48,125
Youth Science Ambassador, Mia Ottokiak

1069
01:46:48,125 --> 01:46:49,458
from Cambridge Bay,

1070
01:46:49,458 --> 01:46:53,041
Nunavut. She was there as a

1071
01:46:53,041 --> 01:46:54,375
high school student when it was first

1072
01:46:54,375 --> 01:46:56,250
installed. Graduated from high school,

1073
01:46:56,250 --> 01:46:57,333
became one of the first

1074
01:46:59,083 --> 01:47:01,583
students in her class that actually went

1075
01:47:01,583 --> 01:47:03,208
into a science career in

1076
01:47:03,208 --> 01:47:04,041
the government of Nunavut.

1077
01:47:04,833 --> 01:47:08,291
And then she was invited to the UN Decade

1078
01:47:08,291 --> 01:47:10,458
Conference two years

1079
01:47:10,458 --> 01:47:11,791
ago and actually made a

1080
01:47:11,833 --> 01:47:13,958
speech about the importance of observing

1081
01:47:13,958 --> 01:47:15,333
the ocean from her

1082
01:47:15,333 --> 01:47:17,208
perspective in Cambridge Bay,

1083
01:47:17,208 --> 01:47:19,833
Nunavut. So all of that, we're very proud

1084
01:47:19,833 --> 01:47:21,708
of that and really happy that we can

1085
01:47:21,708 --> 01:47:22,625
continue to do that.

1086
01:47:22,625 --> 01:47:24,750
And I think that's a very, very important

1087
01:47:24,750 --> 01:47:26,250
point that we perhaps

1088
01:47:26,250 --> 01:47:27,708
can all make and that is

1089
01:47:28,666 --> 01:47:32,875
a path forward would be to creatively

1090
01:47:32,875 --> 01:47:36,833
merge the philosophies and

1091
01:47:36,833 --> 01:47:39,041
attitudes of Indigenous people

1092
01:47:39,666 --> 01:47:42,250
with cutting edge technology. Their

1093
01:47:42,250 --> 01:47:44,666
philosophy and attitude was reverence for

1094
01:47:44,666 --> 01:47:45,916
the environment that

1095
01:47:46,666 --> 01:47:50,041
they lived in and supported them instead

1096
01:47:50,041 --> 01:47:52,000
of what early on for sure

1097
01:47:52,000 --> 01:47:53,541
was when the Europeans came

1098
01:47:54,125 --> 01:47:56,666
to the new world. The goal was to get in,

1099
01:47:56,666 --> 01:47:58,083
get rich and get out and

1100
01:47:58,083 --> 01:47:59,583
care what they left behind.

1101
01:48:00,416 --> 01:48:04,041
So I think what Kate has pointed out is

1102
01:48:04,041 --> 01:48:05,458
goes back to this cultural

1103
01:48:06,666 --> 01:48:10,000
groundbreaking effort. There are many

1104
01:48:10,000 --> 01:48:13,208
levels of this cultural point, but I

1105
01:48:13,208 --> 01:48:13,625
think it's extremely

1106
01:48:13,791 --> 01:48:15,625
important and I think Neptune Canada has

1107
01:48:15,625 --> 01:48:17,541
certainly led the way in

1108
01:48:17,541 --> 01:48:20,208
that effort and they deserve

1109
01:48:20,208 --> 01:48:21,791
tremendous credit there. I don't know

1110
01:48:21,791 --> 01:48:22,708
where that kind of credit

1111
01:48:22,708 --> 01:48:25,583
comes from. I guess they continue

1112
01:48:25,583 --> 01:48:29,416
to get funding. So that's kind of thin

1113
01:48:29,416 --> 01:48:31,583
gruel compared to, you

1114
01:48:31,583 --> 01:48:32,416
know, there should be a Nobel

1115
01:48:32,541 --> 01:48:35,666
Prize for fiber optic cables. I'm

1116
01:48:35,666 --> 01:48:37,416
kidding. Well, but I mean,

1117
01:48:37,416 --> 01:48:38,875
there's a lot of challenges to

1118
01:48:39,041 --> 01:48:40,833
to also put up cables in the Arctic,

1119
01:48:40,833 --> 01:48:42,000
right? Like this is not,

1120
01:48:42,000 --> 01:48:42,916
we're not talking about

1121
01:48:43,333 --> 01:48:45,875
the friendliest environments to work in

1122
01:48:45,875 --> 01:48:48,375
these. These have been often very

1123
01:48:48,375 --> 01:48:49,375
difficult and challenging

1124
01:48:49,416 --> 01:48:51,708
places to work in, obviously with climate

1125
01:48:51,708 --> 01:48:54,750
change, helping that out in terms of

1126
01:48:54,750 --> 01:48:55,625
making things a little

1127
01:48:56,291 --> 01:48:59,208
easier to work there and be able to lay

1128
01:48:59,208 --> 01:49:01,750
this type of cable. Was it a difficult

1129
01:49:01,750 --> 01:49:03,791
thing to do to lay this

1130
01:49:03,791 --> 01:49:05,625
fiber optic cable in the Arctic? Well,

1131
01:49:05,625 --> 01:49:06,541
it's in a coastal

1132
01:49:06,541 --> 01:49:08,000
environment. So it's a relatively

1133
01:49:08,916 --> 01:49:11,041
simple, but certainly that we had to

1134
01:49:11,041 --> 01:49:13,500
design it so that the challenge in these

1135
01:49:13,500 --> 01:49:15,000
sea ice covered areas is that

1136
01:49:15,041 --> 01:49:17,791
the land fast ice can take out the cable.

1137
01:49:17,791 --> 01:49:18,791
So we developed a

1138
01:49:18,791 --> 01:49:19,958
technique to protect those cables.

1139
01:49:20,208 --> 01:49:22,500
And in fact, last January, we we decided

1140
01:49:22,500 --> 01:49:23,666
to go even further and

1141
01:49:23,666 --> 01:49:24,875
we installed a coastal

1142
01:49:24,875 --> 01:49:29,000
observatory in Antarctica. And we have

1143
01:49:29,000 --> 01:49:30,708
developed our talk about our physical

1144
01:49:30,708 --> 01:49:31,541
infrastructure team.

1145
01:49:31,916 --> 01:49:33,916
They are amazing at developing these

1146
01:49:33,916 --> 01:49:36,083
coastal observatories that

1147
01:49:36,083 --> 01:49:38,375
are relatively easy to install,

1148
01:49:38,375 --> 01:49:40,833
protected from sea ice, for example. And

1149
01:49:40,833 --> 01:49:42,833
incredibly, they have incredibly

1150
01:49:42,833 --> 01:49:44,250
developed innovative ways to

1151
01:49:45,250 --> 01:49:48,416
maintain them. And that continues to

1152
01:49:48,416 --> 01:49:51,500
improve over time, so much so that we are

1153
01:49:51,500 --> 01:49:52,875
planning to install many more

1154
01:49:52,875 --> 01:49:55,250
coastal observatories in Canada because

1155
01:49:55,250 --> 01:49:56,541
Canada has the longest

1156
01:49:56,541 --> 01:49:57,375
coastline in the world.

1157
01:49:58,541 --> 01:50:00,125
And most of it's in the Arctic and most

1158
01:50:00,125 --> 01:50:03,000
of it's not very well understood. And so

1159
01:50:03,000 --> 01:50:04,541
in addition to developing

1160
01:50:04,541 --> 01:50:07,166
these coastal observatories, we have

1161
01:50:07,166 --> 01:50:09,041
decided to move forward with developing

1162
01:50:09,041 --> 01:50:11,708
systems to measure things

1163
01:50:11,791 --> 01:50:14,541
like coastal radar, which is measuring

1164
01:50:14,541 --> 01:50:16,250
surface currents that are

1165
01:50:16,250 --> 01:50:18,958
renewable energy powered,

1166
01:50:19,583 --> 01:50:21,250
compact, you can deploy them by

1167
01:50:21,250 --> 01:50:22,875
helicopter so that we can begin to

1168
01:50:22,875 --> 01:50:24,666
populate these areas of the Arctic

1169
01:50:25,083 --> 01:50:27,333
with power systems and coastal radar, but

1170
01:50:27,333 --> 01:50:28,541
possibly other other

1171
01:50:28,541 --> 01:50:31,166
sensor systems to build up that

1172
01:50:31,791 --> 01:50:34,666
presence in the Arctic to understand our

1173
01:50:34,666 --> 01:50:36,083
own coastline. So those

1174
01:50:36,083 --> 01:50:36,916
are the new things that are

1175
01:50:36,916 --> 01:50:38,958
coming. I'll just come back to one other

1176
01:50:38,958 --> 01:50:41,208
thing I'm proud of, and it stems back to

1177
01:50:41,208 --> 01:50:43,708
somewhat of Benoit's background,

1178
01:50:44,958 --> 01:50:50,375
and John's decision to name Neptune, you

1179
01:50:50,375 --> 01:50:52,041
know, thinking about planets and space.

1180
01:50:54,208 --> 01:50:57,125
We also have a terrific physical

1181
01:50:57,125 --> 01:51:00,333
operations team. In 2018, the

1182
01:51:00,333 --> 01:51:01,416
high energy particle physics

1183
01:51:01,666 --> 01:51:03,333
community knocked on our door out of the

1184
01:51:03,333 --> 01:51:05,750
blue and said, we want to install a

1185
01:51:05,750 --> 01:51:07,291
neutrino observatory, and we heard that

1186
01:51:07,291 --> 01:51:08,916
you know how to put things in the water

1187
01:51:08,916 --> 01:51:11,958
and make it work. And I was telling John

1188
01:51:11,958 --> 01:51:13,291
about this this morning, and within

1189
01:51:13,500 --> 01:51:16,583
eight months, we designed, built and

1190
01:51:16,583 --> 01:51:19,083
installed a test neutrino observatory at

1191
01:51:19,083 --> 01:51:20,041
our deepest location.

1192
01:51:20,791 --> 01:51:22,791
And that has led that community now to

1193
01:51:22,791 --> 01:51:24,166
secure funding to build

1194
01:51:24,166 --> 01:51:25,458
probably the world's biggest

1195
01:51:25,583 --> 01:51:29,083
neutrino observatory going forward. It

1196
01:51:29,083 --> 01:51:31,583
will be similar to the neutrino

1197
01:51:31,583 --> 01:51:33,625
observatory in Antarctica that that's

1198
01:51:33,625 --> 01:51:34,666
owned by the US National

1199
01:51:34,666 --> 01:51:36,791
Science Foundation called ice cube. And

1200
01:51:36,791 --> 01:51:38,875
that's moving ahead a pace. And we're

1201
01:51:38,875 --> 01:51:40,041
really proud of that.

1202
01:51:40,416 --> 01:51:44,083
Yeah. Because as we mentioned

1203
01:51:44,083 --> 01:51:46,791
the diversity of data, there's every

1204
01:51:46,791 --> 01:51:50,541
science in the ocean. So it's like crazy

1205
01:51:50,541 --> 01:51:51,500
to call oceanography.

1206
01:51:51,500 --> 01:51:52,833
It's every science in the

1207
01:51:52,833 --> 01:51:54,750
ocean. Yeah. So that's what we're

1208
01:51:54,750 --> 01:51:57,583
measuring for every, every one of those

1209
01:51:57,583 --> 01:51:59,875
sciences we deliver data. But this is

1210
01:51:59,875 --> 01:52:01,583
like, I mean, this is the technology that

1211
01:52:01,583 --> 01:52:03,833
that we we know what we can do is just a

1212
01:52:03,833 --> 01:52:05,291
matter of putting it into place and

1213
01:52:05,291 --> 01:52:07,916
almost almost being there. And I think,

1214
01:52:07,916 --> 01:52:11,208
yeah, a lot of a lot of funding. And I

1215
01:52:11,208 --> 01:52:13,208
think that obviously that that's a big a

1216
01:52:13,208 --> 01:52:14,583
big part of it. But if we're going to

1217
01:52:14,583 --> 01:52:16,541
continue to explore the oceans as crucial

1218
01:52:16,541 --> 01:52:19,000
as they are, we're going to need this

1219
01:52:19,000 --> 01:52:20,833
type of funding. We're going to need places like ONC to continue to explore the ocean.

1220
01:52:20,833 --> 01:52:22,291
We're going to need places like ONC to

1221
01:52:22,291 --> 01:52:25,666
continue to bring that data to people on

1222
01:52:25,666 --> 01:52:28,250
a regular on a regular basis. But what

1223
01:52:28,250 --> 01:52:30,625
just from a from a data infrastructure

1224
01:52:30,625 --> 01:52:33,375
standpoint and a digital infrastructure

1225
01:52:33,375 --> 01:52:35,750
standpoint, what are some of the things

1226
01:52:35,750 --> 01:52:36,833
that you're working on?

1227
01:52:38,833 --> 01:52:39,833
And I think that's what we could expect

1228
01:52:39,833 --> 01:52:41,708
to come up on the next on the next on the

1229
01:52:41,708 --> 01:52:43,666
horizon. What does that said before,

1230
01:52:43,666 --> 01:52:45,208
there's always something new coming up.

1231
01:52:45,500 --> 01:52:47,458
And it's not coming from us. It's coming

1232
01:52:47,458 --> 01:52:49,208
from the community of researchers who

1233
01:52:49,208 --> 01:52:50,833
build new types of instruments. It's

1234
01:52:50,833 --> 01:52:53,791
coming from industry who invents new

1235
01:52:53,791 --> 01:52:59,041
methods to to collect data. And this is

1236
01:52:59,041 --> 01:53:02,208
all very exciting. And so to me, what's

1237
01:53:02,208 --> 01:53:04,291
going to be coming out for us

1238
01:53:04,291 --> 01:53:07,833
in the next year to five years.

1239
01:53:07,833 --> 01:53:12,625
Is those new instruments that have a

1240
01:53:12,625 --> 01:53:15,333
relationship with what is commonly called

1241
01:53:15,333 --> 01:53:21,208
fiber sensing. You take a fiber optic and

1242
01:53:21,208 --> 01:53:24,166
you shine a laser light very frequently,

1243
01:53:24,166 --> 01:53:28,416
like hundreds of times per second. And in

1244
01:53:28,416 --> 01:53:32,625
between the shots of light, you look at

1245
01:53:32,625 --> 01:53:35,416
the look at the backscatter, you look at

1246
01:53:35,416 --> 01:53:36,833
the reflections of this particular

1247
01:53:36,916 --> 01:53:40,625
flash of light at every point along the

1248
01:53:40,625 --> 01:53:44,625
fiber because of the impurities on the

1249
01:53:44,625 --> 01:53:47,166
glass of the fiber, you are going to have

1250
01:53:47,166 --> 01:53:49,791
these reflections. And if if you observe

1251
01:53:49,791 --> 01:53:53,791
this, like a lot, a lot of times 100 sums

1252
01:53:53,791 --> 01:53:57,166
per second, you can start building a

1253
01:53:57,166 --> 01:54:00,458
concept of changes that occur in the

1254
01:54:00,458 --> 01:54:03,583
fiber at a very fine resolution, meaning

1255
01:54:03,583 --> 01:54:05,833
not only spatial resolution along the fiber length, but also the

1256
01:54:05,833 --> 01:54:06,333
changes that occur along the fiber

1257
01:54:06,333 --> 01:54:09,333
length, which could be up to 100

1258
01:54:09,333 --> 01:54:14,083
kilometers, but also sense very precisely

1259
01:54:14,083 --> 01:54:16,458
the changes that occur to the fiber from

1260
01:54:16,458 --> 01:54:19,958
when it's subjected to strain stresses,

1261
01:54:20,833 --> 01:54:23,166
temperature changes and all that. So

1262
01:54:23,166 --> 01:54:25,500
essentially you by continuous observing

1263
01:54:25,500 --> 01:54:27,791
that in collecting this humongous amount

1264
01:54:27,791 --> 01:54:30,958
of data, you can start mapping out along

1265
01:54:30,958 --> 01:54:32,666
the fiber the changes

1266
01:54:32,666 --> 01:54:34,833
that occur due to vibration,

1267
01:54:35,000 --> 01:54:43,416
be they seismic or acoustic, or you can

1268
01:54:43,416 --> 01:54:44,583
get a sense of the temperature

1269
01:54:44,583 --> 01:54:47,500
fluctuations over time. And you get this

1270
01:54:47,500 --> 01:54:53,666
information multiple times per second, at

1271
01:54:53,666 --> 01:54:57,208
every meter along that fiber. So you can

1272
01:54:57,208 --> 01:54:59,375
imagine the data volume that will come

1273
01:54:59,375 --> 01:55:02,208
out of it. Yeah, it's going to be orders

1274
01:55:02,208 --> 01:55:03,416
of magnitude more than

1275
01:55:03,416 --> 01:55:03,833
whatever we're dealing with today.

1276
01:55:03,833 --> 01:55:09,000
And, and again, back to the culture clash

1277
01:55:09,000 --> 01:55:11,625
with the community, they have to learn

1278
01:55:11,625 --> 01:55:14,666
quickly now not only to deal with data

1279
01:55:14,666 --> 01:55:17,583
365 days a year, which is what

1280
01:55:17,583 --> 01:55:20,166
observatories like Neptune and Venus and

1281
01:55:20,166 --> 01:55:24,833
others put them in front of, they're going to have to deal with a lot more data now.

1282
01:55:27,250 --> 01:55:32,208
We're going to have to, to provide the

1283
01:55:32,208 --> 01:55:33,708
community with we're going to have to

1284
01:55:33,708 --> 01:55:36,041
help them dealing with the data volume by

1285
01:55:36,041 --> 01:55:39,250
providing new tools. And so this is this

1286
01:55:39,250 --> 01:55:44,416
continuous struggle as it were that not

1287
01:55:44,416 --> 01:55:47,708
only we have to make people understand

1288
01:55:47,708 --> 01:55:48,833
that there's data can come in continuously.

1289
01:55:48,916 --> 01:55:53,791
It's going to be too much for anyone to

1290
01:55:53,791 --> 01:55:57,250
work on. So we need to help them with new

1291
01:55:57,250 --> 01:56:00,500
techniques such as data visualization

1292
01:56:00,500 --> 01:56:03,916
systems. And more recently, again, these

1293
01:56:03,916 --> 01:56:06,875
artificial intelligence machine learning

1294
01:56:06,875 --> 01:56:09,541
systems that in principle should be able

1295
01:56:09,541 --> 01:56:13,208
to help people detect what's in there and

1296
01:56:13,208 --> 01:56:14,833
tell them what it is.

1297
01:56:15,875 --> 01:56:18,458
And because of our, our emphasis on

1298
01:56:18,458 --> 01:56:19,958
digital infrastructure, we're trying to

1299
01:56:19,958 --> 01:56:22,250
position ocean always Canada as a data

1300
01:56:22,250 --> 01:56:24,375
provider for these systems, because we

1301
01:56:24,375 --> 01:56:27,208
know they're coming. And we know that

1302
01:56:27,208 --> 01:56:28,208
they're important, they'll

1303
01:56:28,208 --> 01:56:28,833
be important for research.

1304
01:56:28,833 --> 01:56:32,166
But of course, as you probably

1305
01:56:32,166 --> 01:56:34,250
understand, they're also important for

1306
01:56:34,250 --> 01:56:39,458
national security. So we want to be at

1307
01:56:39,458 --> 01:56:40,791
the for a Canada wants to be at the

1308
01:56:40,791 --> 01:56:42,500
forefront of delivering these kind of

1309
01:56:42,500 --> 01:56:44,083
data for the research community. But at

1310
01:56:44,083 --> 01:56:47,541
the same time, having those agreement

1311
01:56:47,541 --> 01:56:49,541
agreements in place to protect the

1312
01:56:49,541 --> 01:56:52,375
information that's needed for other types

1313
01:56:52,375 --> 01:56:54,208
of information that the government needs.

1314
01:56:54,708 --> 01:56:57,583
Yeah, this is an extremely important

1315
01:56:57,583 --> 01:56:57,833
point. It's it's a very important point.

1316
01:56:57,875 --> 01:57:00,625
It's it's the absolute cutting edge right

1317
01:57:00,625 --> 01:57:03,500
now for both the science and the

1318
01:57:03,500 --> 01:57:07,041
technology and it's the idea that machine

1319
01:57:07,041 --> 01:57:09,625
learning and artificial intelligence are

1320
01:57:09,625 --> 01:57:12,416
actually being trained as part of our

1321
01:57:12,416 --> 01:57:18,583
process now to digest this massive meal

1322
01:57:18,583 --> 01:57:20,833
of data is very, very important.

1323
01:57:20,958 --> 01:57:26,208
My, my small scale view, it would be nice

1324
01:57:26,208 --> 01:57:28,708
if we could turn on the Canadian system

1325
01:57:28,708 --> 01:57:32,083
and the US system. And then the ocean in

1326
01:57:32,083 --> 01:57:34,666
between the two would have we would have

1327
01:57:34,666 --> 01:57:37,333
resolution of whatever is going on in

1328
01:57:37,333 --> 01:57:38,958
there, at least with regard to whales,

1329
01:57:39,500 --> 01:57:39,833
maybe with regard to earthquakes.

1330
01:57:39,875 --> 01:57:43,875
Not sure how the two would work together.

1331
01:57:44,166 --> 01:57:46,500
But if we could get to that point, that

1332
01:57:46,500 --> 01:57:48,541
would be just very, very exciting closure

1333
01:57:48,541 --> 01:57:54,458
to what sadly started with 911 when we

1334
01:57:54,458 --> 01:57:58,375
parted company and and haven't worked as

1335
01:57:58,375 --> 01:58:01,958
smoothly and well together as the

1336
01:58:01,958 --> 01:58:04,041
original vision was in both groups

1337
01:58:04,041 --> 01:58:06,333
necessarily and understand we had to go

1338
01:58:06,333 --> 01:58:06,833
their separate ways.

1339
01:58:06,875 --> 01:58:10,708
Right. But with the unity of this, this

1340
01:58:10,708 --> 01:58:16,750
idea and the idea that the kids might cut

1341
01:58:16,750 --> 01:58:20,166
new ground in terms of managing the data

1342
01:58:20,166 --> 01:58:21,916
as well as making it available, making

1343
01:58:21,916 --> 01:58:22,875
the products available.

1344
01:58:23,375 --> 01:58:24,250
That's really exciting.

1345
01:58:24,833 --> 01:58:29,833
Yeah, it is kind of kick this back to the

1346
01:58:29,833 --> 01:58:35,250
global network of fiber optic cables is

1347
01:58:35,250 --> 01:58:37,291
something like 100 1.5

1348
01:58:37,291 --> 01:58:39,833
million kilometers on the sea floor.

1349
01:58:41,250 --> 01:58:43,500
If all of that could be used with this

1350
01:58:43,500 --> 01:58:45,208
kind of resolution and frequency and

1351
01:58:45,208 --> 01:58:48,250
presence, the awareness of what goes on

1352
01:58:48,250 --> 01:58:50,791
on the planet at the global scale would

1353
01:58:50,791 --> 01:58:53,333
be phenomenal. And I don't know, you have

1354
01:58:53,333 --> 01:58:55,541
to address whether or not that's even

1355
01:58:55,541 --> 01:58:57,541
feasible because a lot of people who own

1356
01:58:57,541 --> 01:58:58,500
these cables don't want

1357
01:58:58,500 --> 01:58:59,750
anybody else messing with them.

1358
01:59:00,166 --> 01:59:02,250
They want to own it entirely. Right.

1359
01:59:03,333 --> 01:59:06,750
Yes. And it's a good segue. One of my

1360
01:59:06,750 --> 01:59:10,208
projects right now is to be part of this

1361
01:59:10,208 --> 01:59:13,583
so called smart cable initiative that try

1362
01:59:13,583 --> 01:59:17,500
to promote the use of of new but also

1363
01:59:17,500 --> 01:59:20,833
existing cables for ocean sensing taking

1364
01:59:20,833 --> 01:59:23,375
advantage and leveraging these 1.4

1365
01:59:23,375 --> 01:59:26,083
million kilometers, as you say, of cable

1366
01:59:26,083 --> 01:59:26,833
that that already exists.

1367
01:59:26,875 --> 01:59:31,250
And those doubling of that that will

1368
01:59:31,250 --> 01:59:32,875
probably exist in the next 10 years.

1369
01:59:34,958 --> 01:59:38,708
And so, yes, it's a challenge. But but I

1370
01:59:38,708 --> 01:59:41,458
think because these techniques that I was

1371
01:59:41,458 --> 01:59:46,208
describing the use of the use of fiber

1372
01:59:46,208 --> 01:59:50,208
sensing can be also seen as a cable

1373
01:59:50,208 --> 01:59:52,541
protection system because you then

1374
01:59:52,541 --> 01:59:54,583
understand what's happening in your cable

1375
01:59:54,583 --> 01:59:55,833
like, like, for example, there's a new cable.

1376
01:59:56,208 --> 01:59:58,041
For example, there's there's an anchor

1377
01:59:58,041 --> 02:00:01,916
drag that's approaching the cable and

1378
02:00:01,916 --> 02:00:04,375
could be cut like any minute now.

1379
02:00:04,375 --> 02:00:07,125
Then you kind of pre-warned. It doesn't

1380
02:00:07,125 --> 02:00:08,500
mean you can stop anything from

1381
02:00:08,500 --> 02:00:10,583
happening, but at least you can trace

1382
02:00:10,583 --> 02:00:12,875
back not only where it happens when it

1383
02:00:12,875 --> 02:00:15,541
happened and who might be to culprit is

1384
02:00:15,541 --> 02:00:16,500
something you can derive

1385
02:00:16,500 --> 02:00:18,833
from the data you're collecting.

1386
02:00:18,875 --> 02:00:21,541
But but more importantly, as John was

1387
02:00:21,541 --> 02:00:24,500
saying, even observatories that go off

1388
02:00:24,500 --> 02:00:26,583
three, four, 500 kilometers offshore,

1389
02:00:26,791 --> 02:00:29,708
like the regional scale nodes in the US

1390
02:00:29,708 --> 02:00:32,583
and Neptune Neptune Neptune Observatory

1391
02:00:32,583 --> 02:00:34,625
at ocean works, Canada, you can now you

1392
02:00:34,625 --> 02:00:36,500
can call that Neptune US now.

1393
02:00:37,833 --> 02:00:39,250
I'm okay with you would be

1394
02:00:39,250 --> 02:00:43,166
dead soon. They can't get me.

1395
02:00:43,875 --> 02:00:46,833
Yeah, that's right. Yes. So so they only

1396
02:00:46,833 --> 02:00:48,958
covering the coastal zone, as you could

1397
02:00:48,958 --> 02:00:51,083
call it, right? They're going on the so

1398
02:00:51,083 --> 02:00:53,708
far offshore and the Pacific Ocean is so

1399
02:00:53,708 --> 02:00:55,916
large, I always think of that picture

1400
02:00:55,916 --> 02:00:58,875
that Kate uses in her presentations about

1401
02:00:58,875 --> 02:00:59,916
ocean works, Canada and

1402
02:00:59,916 --> 02:01:01,125
why we're doing what we do.

1403
02:01:01,833 --> 02:01:05,375
It's because you can actually project the

1404
02:01:05,375 --> 02:01:08,333
earth and have a view of the earth that

1405
02:01:08,333 --> 02:01:11,041
is almost entirely blue with just some

1406
02:01:11,041 --> 02:01:14,416
edges of it covered in that's the Pacific

1407
02:01:14,416 --> 02:01:15,666
Ocean view. Right, right.

1408
02:01:15,958 --> 02:01:18,041
And, and you look at it and you see where

1409
02:01:18,041 --> 02:01:20,750
we are. And even the Neptune observatory

1410
02:01:20,750 --> 02:01:24,208
observatories cover very tiny fractions,

1411
02:01:24,208 --> 02:01:28,000
just a few pixel screen. And so, because

1412
02:01:28,000 --> 02:01:30,416
those telecommunication cables, the

1413
02:01:30,416 --> 02:01:32,333
submarine communication cables go from

1414
02:01:32,333 --> 02:01:36,166
continent to continent, they represent a

1415
02:01:36,166 --> 02:01:37,458
huge opportunity to

1416
02:01:37,458 --> 02:01:39,083
understand a lot more about the ocean.

1417
02:01:54,375 --> 02:01:57,666
And of course, of interest in the seismic

1418
02:01:57,666 --> 02:02:00,291
aspects to, you know, I

1419
02:02:00,291 --> 02:02:02,708
was just seeing recently the

1420
02:02:05,833 --> 02:02:08,708
the now and the future view of an

1421
02:02:08,708 --> 02:02:11,750
understanding of the Earth crust with

1422
02:02:11,750 --> 02:02:15,958
smart cables and today. And that's huge.

1423
02:02:16,458 --> 02:02:18,083
We would we would learn so much more

1424
02:02:18,083 --> 02:02:20,000
about how the Earth tectonic system

1425
02:02:20,000 --> 02:02:23,458
works. If we had these smart cables with

1426
02:02:23,458 --> 02:02:25,333
a number of sensors on them.

1427
02:02:25,333 --> 02:02:25,916
You mean when?

1428
02:02:26,875 --> 02:02:29,916
I mean, again, that's just a reminder. We

1429
02:02:29,916 --> 02:02:31,708
want to position ourselves as a data

1430
02:02:31,708 --> 02:02:33,916
delivery in that. Yeah, particularly

1431
02:02:33,916 --> 02:02:36,750
because Ben was also part of a group

1432
02:02:36,750 --> 02:02:39,791
that's advising on a telecommunication

1433
02:02:39,791 --> 02:02:41,750
cable across the Arctic Ocean because of

1434
02:02:41,750 --> 02:02:46,125
the concerns of our European friends of

1435
02:02:46,125 --> 02:02:49,625
from a security perspective of relying on

1436
02:02:49,625 --> 02:02:51,083
on telecom cables that are

1437
02:02:51,083 --> 02:02:55,583
in areas of, you know, of war.

1438
02:02:55,875 --> 02:02:59,416
Let's put it that way. And it's important

1439
02:02:59,416 --> 02:03:02,000
for the audience to be reminded again

1440
02:03:02,000 --> 02:03:04,958
that most almost all of our internet

1441
02:03:04,958 --> 02:03:06,958
traffic is on telecommunication cables.

1442
02:03:07,500 --> 02:03:09,708
Elon Musk is not saving us saving the

1443
02:03:09,708 --> 02:03:12,125
world with the Starlink. It's the telecom

1444
02:03:12,125 --> 02:03:16,916
communications. And so by piggybacking on

1445
02:03:16,916 --> 02:03:19,875
these with sensors, we then begin to

1446
02:03:19,875 --> 02:03:20,833
actually sense the whole planet.

1447
02:03:21,541 --> 02:03:24,125
And Kate, can you also develop the idea

1448
02:03:24,125 --> 02:03:26,125
that we're a little worried about a

1449
02:03:26,125 --> 02:03:28,250
magnitude nine earthquake? Oh, yes, of

1450
02:03:28,250 --> 02:03:35,750
course. I forgot it. Yeah. So so we've I

1451
02:03:35,750 --> 02:03:38,250
wish in Canada and with with provincial

1452
02:03:38,250 --> 02:03:40,500
funding installed an earthquake early

1453
02:03:40,500 --> 02:03:42,958
warning system for the southwestern part

1454
02:03:42,958 --> 02:03:44,291
of British Columbia, which is

1455
02:03:44,291 --> 02:03:44,833
at risk of a magnitude nine.

1456
02:03:44,875 --> 02:03:48,250
The last one was the anniversary was just

1457
02:03:48,250 --> 02:03:52,041
a few days ago on January 26, 1700, where

1458
02:03:52,041 --> 02:03:53,791
there was a magnitude nine that's

1459
02:03:53,791 --> 02:03:56,458
estimated earthquake caused a giant

1460
02:03:56,458 --> 02:03:58,791
tsunami that crossed the Pacific Ocean.

1461
02:03:59,458 --> 02:04:03,750
And the reason we know about this, this

1462
02:04:03,750 --> 02:04:06,708
this earthquake was because of the fact

1463
02:04:06,708 --> 02:04:07,833
of tax records in Japan.

1464
02:04:07,833 --> 02:04:10,666
All of a sudden, on one specific day,

1465
02:04:11,125 --> 02:04:12,625
there were no more taxes collected in

1466
02:04:12,625 --> 02:04:15,833
most of the coastal villages in Japan.

1467
02:04:16,041 --> 02:04:17,500
But then because scientists knew that

1468
02:04:17,500 --> 02:04:19,458
that happened, then they went back and

1469
02:04:19,458 --> 02:04:21,041
started talking with indigenous

1470
02:04:21,041 --> 02:04:23,125
communities here on this coast who had

1471
02:04:23,125 --> 02:04:25,375
the stories in their in

1472
02:04:25,375 --> 02:04:26,833
their their their storytelling.

1473
02:04:26,833 --> 02:04:28,916
And so it was clear that the communities

1474
02:04:28,916 --> 02:04:33,458
knew it well. And I need to just talk a

1475
02:04:33,458 --> 02:04:34,875
little bit about what we were talking

1476
02:04:34,875 --> 02:04:36,125
about earlier with our indigenous

1477
02:04:36,125 --> 02:04:37,708
communities. So one of the things that

1478
02:04:37,708 --> 02:04:39,791
we're doing at Ocean Networks Canada is

1479
02:04:39,791 --> 02:04:44,166
developing data products that are unique

1480
02:04:44,166 --> 02:04:47,250
for indigenous communities and Western

1481
02:04:47,250 --> 02:04:48,833
Science, if you want to call it that.

1482
02:04:48,875 --> 02:04:51,375
So when we we actually do inundation

1483
02:04:51,375 --> 02:04:54,833
modeling of a magnitude nine, we've done

1484
02:04:54,833 --> 02:04:56,041
most of the coastline of Vancouver

1485
02:04:56,041 --> 02:04:58,041
Island, a lot a large part of the

1486
02:04:58,041 --> 02:04:59,208
populated area of the

1487
02:04:59,208 --> 02:05:00,250
mainland of British Columbia.

1488
02:05:00,875 --> 02:05:03,833
We're now working on Douglas Channel. And

1489
02:05:03,833 --> 02:05:08,250
when we finished our last inundation work

1490
02:05:08,250 --> 02:05:10,458
in the northwestern part of Vancouver

1491
02:05:10,458 --> 02:05:14,125
Island, our indigenous team went and

1492
02:05:14,125 --> 02:05:17,083
interviewed the leaders and the chiefs of

1493
02:05:17,083 --> 02:05:19,875
the First Nations along that coast and

1494
02:05:19,875 --> 02:05:22,541
recorded their stories of tsunamis.

1495
02:05:22,875 --> 02:05:26,166
And then that team, which is that which

1496
02:05:26,166 --> 02:05:29,875
has a wonderful documentarian actually

1497
02:05:29,875 --> 02:05:33,791
melded together. There are results of an

1498
02:05:33,791 --> 02:05:34,666
inundation study, which

1499
02:05:34,666 --> 02:05:36,000
are models of inundation.

1500
02:05:36,000 --> 02:05:37,083
You know, how high is the water going to

1501
02:05:37,083 --> 02:05:39,500
get in your community, explaining the

1502
02:05:39,500 --> 02:05:41,500
science behind that and then melded that

1503
02:05:41,500 --> 02:05:43,458
beautifully with the stories

1504
02:05:43,458 --> 02:05:44,833
from these indigenous leaders.

1505
02:05:44,875 --> 02:05:47,333
And then we went back to each of these

1506
02:05:47,333 --> 02:05:49,416
communities and we showcased this

1507
02:05:49,416 --> 02:05:52,458
documentary in libraries and schools in

1508
02:05:52,458 --> 02:05:55,041
the villages. And the feedback we got was

1509
02:05:55,041 --> 02:05:56,791
tremendous. It was that this is the kind

1510
02:05:56,791 --> 02:05:58,958
of product we want. We

1511
02:05:58,958 --> 02:06:00,791
don't want a five-stage report.

1512
02:06:01,125 --> 02:06:03,083
And so that was our first step into

1513
02:06:03,083 --> 02:06:07,458
really having truly meaningful two-eyed

1514
02:06:07,458 --> 02:06:11,833
ways of seeing things like tsunamis.

1515
02:06:11,833 --> 02:06:13,333
It's a very rich storytelling

1516
02:06:13,333 --> 02:06:18,291
environment. This event was a battle, a

1517
02:06:18,291 --> 02:06:21,708
well-known battle between Thunderbird and

1518
02:06:21,708 --> 02:06:24,083
whale. And they fought and fought and

1519
02:06:24,083 --> 02:06:25,875
fought. And that's the

1520
02:06:25,875 --> 02:06:26,833
way it's accounted for.

1521
02:06:26,833 --> 02:06:31,250
But villages that were 100 feet high were

1522
02:06:31,250 --> 02:06:35,875
actually wiped out. And some of them talk

1523
02:06:35,875 --> 02:06:38,791
about waves that actually crossed much of

1524
02:06:38,791 --> 02:06:44,916
the Olympic Peninsula. It's just an

1525
02:06:44,916 --> 02:06:46,833
astonishing set of stories.

1526
02:06:46,833 --> 02:06:52,708
And sadly, not very much of this goes on

1527
02:06:52,708 --> 02:06:54,708
in the United States, but I'm thrilled

1528
02:06:54,708 --> 02:06:58,833
that it's happening in Canada. I think I

1529
02:06:58,833 --> 02:07:00,416
was thinking maybe there are nine

1530
02:07:00,416 --> 02:07:04,041
provinces in Canada. Why not make the

1531
02:07:04,041 --> 02:07:06,541
United States the 10th?

1532
02:07:07,833 --> 02:07:10,166
You're welcome, Washington. Yeah, but let

1533
02:07:10,166 --> 02:07:11,041
me just put a plug in for the

1534
02:07:11,041 --> 02:07:12,875
documentary. It's on YouTube. It's called

1535
02:07:12,875 --> 02:07:15,500
"Sunami the 11th Relative", which is the

1536
02:07:15,500 --> 02:07:17,166
First Nations called the

1537
02:07:17,166 --> 02:07:18,500
"Sunami the 11th Relative".

1538
02:07:18,875 --> 02:07:21,000
Yeah, we'll definitely link to that in

1539
02:07:21,000 --> 02:07:24,125
the show notes for sure. Yeah, listen,

1540
02:07:24,125 --> 02:07:25,958
this has been a phenomenal episode

1541
02:07:25,958 --> 02:07:29,458
already. And I know we could probably go

1542
02:07:29,458 --> 02:07:31,291
on for hours to be able to talk about all

1543
02:07:31,291 --> 02:07:33,333
the different things that the ONC has

1544
02:07:33,333 --> 02:07:35,958
done and will continue to do and continue

1545
02:07:35,958 --> 02:07:38,458
to adapt to new different ways of

1546
02:07:38,458 --> 02:07:40,000
understanding the ocean with new

1547
02:07:40,000 --> 02:07:42,208
different ways of learning about data and

1548
02:07:42,208 --> 02:07:42,833
managing data and so forth.

1549
02:07:42,833 --> 02:07:45,750
I want to thank all three of you for

1550
02:07:45,750 --> 02:07:47,625
joining me today on this on this episode

1551
02:07:47,625 --> 02:07:50,208
because I know my audience is very

1552
02:07:50,208 --> 02:07:51,916
hopeful in the types of understanding

1553
02:07:51,916 --> 02:07:54,375
that we can have in the future and that

1554
02:07:54,375 --> 02:07:56,166
we've already had from the data and to

1555
02:07:56,166 --> 02:07:58,375
see how all these these networks of

1556
02:07:58,375 --> 02:08:00,458
cables have been able to expand to

1557
02:08:00,458 --> 02:08:02,166
different communities, not only in

1558
02:08:02,166 --> 02:08:02,791
Canada, but

1559
02:08:02,791 --> 02:08:03,833
Antarctica and other countries.

1560
02:08:03,875 --> 02:08:06,166
I think it's it's phenomenal to to be

1561
02:08:06,166 --> 02:08:07,916
able to see that gives me a lot of hope

1562
02:08:07,916 --> 02:08:09,500
for our future and being able to

1563
02:08:09,500 --> 02:08:11,541
understand what's happening and have

1564
02:08:11,541 --> 02:08:14,166
early detection systems and and so forth.

1565
02:08:14,166 --> 02:08:16,125
So I want to thank all of you for not

1566
02:08:16,125 --> 02:08:17,500
only your contributions, but for coming

1567
02:08:17,500 --> 02:08:19,375
on the episode today and telling our

1568
02:08:19,375 --> 02:08:20,708
audience. Thank you so much.

1569
02:08:20,875 --> 02:08:21,416
Thank you.

1570
02:08:22,083 --> 02:08:24,375
Andrew, if I can give you a gift back.

1571
02:08:24,833 --> 02:08:25,166
Yes, please.

1572
02:08:25,500 --> 02:08:28,083
You're doing this. It's from it's a note

1573
02:08:28,083 --> 02:08:29,958
to you from TS Eliot.

1574
02:08:30,291 --> 02:08:30,833
Okay.

1575
02:08:31,416 --> 02:08:32,666
It's from four quartets.

1576
02:08:33,875 --> 02:08:36,166
We shall not cease from exploration and

1577
02:08:36,166 --> 02:08:38,666
the end of all our exploring will be to

1578
02:08:38,666 --> 02:08:40,458
arrive where we started and know the

1579
02:08:40,458 --> 02:08:41,791
place for the first time.

1580
02:08:42,875 --> 02:08:44,458
Arrived through the unknown remembered

1581
02:08:44,458 --> 02:08:46,916
gate where the last of Earth left to

1582
02:08:46,916 --> 02:08:48,791
discover is that which was the beginning

1583
02:08:48,791 --> 02:08:53,000
at the source of the longest river, the

1584
02:08:53,000 --> 02:08:56,000
voice of a hidden waterfall, not known

1585
02:08:56,000 --> 02:08:59,833
because not look for but heard half heard

1586
02:08:59,833 --> 02:09:02,250
between two waves of the sea.

1587
02:09:03,416 --> 02:09:06,083
That's a nice. Thank you

1588
02:09:06,083 --> 02:09:07,458
so much. That's awesome.

1589
02:09:09,333 --> 02:09:11,166
There's there's a lot more to that, but

1590
02:09:11,166 --> 02:09:15,625
it's I recently went to a ceremony at

1591
02:09:15,625 --> 02:09:19,291
Annapolis where they devoted an entire

1592
02:09:19,291 --> 02:09:22,416
ceremony to naming a new ship for one of

1593
02:09:22,416 --> 02:09:25,583
our colleagues, Don Walsh, who dove into

1594
02:09:25,583 --> 02:09:27,500
the Marianas trough in 1960.

1595
02:09:28,541 --> 02:09:29,666
Wow. That was one of

1596
02:09:29,666 --> 02:09:31,416
Don's favorite poems.

1597
02:09:32,375 --> 02:09:34,000
Well, we appreciate that. Thank you so

1598
02:09:34,000 --> 02:09:37,000
much for sharing that with us and sharing

1599
02:09:37,000 --> 02:09:37,833
his contribution as well. We appreciate.

1600
02:09:38,875 --> 02:09:40,750
Again, thank you to all three of you for

1601
02:09:40,750 --> 02:09:42,833
joining us on the episode looking forward

1602
02:09:42,833 --> 02:09:45,625
to diving deeper into to the ocean,

1603
02:09:45,625 --> 02:09:48,375
Canada networks, ocean, Canada and being

1604
02:09:48,375 --> 02:09:51,291
able to find out more about the wonderful

1605
02:09:51,291 --> 02:09:51,875
projects that are

1606
02:09:51,875 --> 02:09:52,833
happening there and the people.

1607
02:09:53,000 --> 02:09:53,583
Thank you so much.

1608
02:09:53,916 --> 02:09:54,833
Thanks for your work, Andrew.

1609
02:09:54,875 --> 02:09:57,875
Bye. Thank you, Kate Benoit and John for

1610
02:09:57,875 --> 02:09:59,333
joining me on today's episode of the how

1611
02:09:59,333 --> 02:10:01,041
to protect the ocean podcast and to kick

1612
02:10:01,041 --> 02:10:03,041
off the first episode of ocean numbers,

1613
02:10:03,291 --> 02:10:05,833
Canada series, surfacing secrets explore

1614
02:10:05,833 --> 02:10:07,833
the ocean, know the planet. Wow.

1615
02:10:07,875 --> 02:10:10,625
It has been an eye opener to hear how out

1616
02:10:10,625 --> 02:10:12,291
of the box idea of deep ocean cable

1617
02:10:12,291 --> 02:10:14,708
observatories in the late 1990s have

1618
02:10:14,708 --> 02:10:16,333
evolved into the state of the art

1619
02:10:16,333 --> 02:10:18,791
observatories we have today. The spirit

1620
02:10:18,791 --> 02:10:20,000
of adventure discovery

1621
02:10:20,000 --> 02:10:22,291
innovation still persist at O and C.

1622
02:10:22,500 --> 02:10:24,041
And I got to tell you, I'm super excited.

1623
02:10:24,041 --> 02:10:25,125
This is something that I've been waiting

1624
02:10:25,125 --> 02:10:27,416
for for a long time. I'm so excited to

1625
02:10:27,416 --> 02:10:29,666
dive in deeper, not just to one episode,

1626
02:10:30,000 --> 02:10:32,208
but to do multiple episodes and the next

1627
02:10:32,208 --> 02:10:34,291
episode of surfacing secrets, explore the

1628
02:10:34,291 --> 02:10:34,833
ocean, know the planet.

1629
02:10:34,875 --> 02:10:37,541
We get to meet engineers and a deep sea

1630
02:10:37,541 --> 02:10:39,708
robot operator involved in ocean network,

1631
02:10:39,708 --> 02:10:41,458
Canada's expeditions to maintain their

1632
02:10:41,458 --> 02:10:43,583
deep sea observatories off the coast of

1633
02:10:43,583 --> 02:10:44,958
British Columbia. And according to Kate

1634
02:10:44,958 --> 02:10:46,500
Moran, it's pretty complicated work.

1635
02:10:46,916 --> 02:10:48,333
Here's another clip for the World Ocean

1636
02:10:48,333 --> 02:10:50,000
Council's ocean titans film.

1637
02:10:50,000 --> 02:10:53,125
Ocean Networks Canada really is an ocean

1638
02:10:53,125 --> 02:10:55,875
data and technology powerhouse. We

1639
02:10:55,875 --> 02:10:58,500
install high tech sensors. We're now

1640
02:10:58,500 --> 02:11:00,666
operating over 12,000 of those sensors

1641
02:11:00,666 --> 02:11:03,166
that deliver data in real time and it's

1642
02:11:03,166 --> 02:11:03,833
available over the Internet to anyone in the world.

1643
02:11:04,875 --> 02:11:07,416
And so we deliver this incredible

1644
02:11:07,416 --> 02:11:10,916
technology with this team of engineers,

1645
02:11:11,208 --> 02:11:13,958
scientists, technicians, data people, GIS

1646
02:11:13,958 --> 02:11:16,333
people who work together to make that

1647
02:11:16,333 --> 02:11:18,291
happen. And for those who don't know,

1648
02:11:18,291 --> 02:11:19,166
it's harder to put sensors

1649
02:11:19,166 --> 02:11:19,833
in the ocean than in space.

1650
02:11:34,875 --> 02:11:35,333
So if you want to protect me directly,

1651
02:11:35,541 --> 02:11:37,291
you can do so. You can DM me on

1652
02:11:37,291 --> 02:11:39,000
Instagram. I'd be more than happy to

1653
02:11:39,000 --> 02:11:41,125
answer you at how to protect the ocean.

1654
02:11:41,125 --> 02:11:43,416
That's at how to protect the ocean. I

1655
02:11:43,416 --> 02:11:44,750
want to thank you so much for joining me

1656
02:11:44,750 --> 02:11:46,333
on today's episode of the how to protect

1657
02:11:46,333 --> 02:11:47,750
the ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew

1658
02:11:47,750 --> 02:11:48,916
Lewin. Have a great day. We'll talk to

1659
02:11:48,916 --> 02:11:50,500
you next time and happy conservation.