Why Nearshore Ocean Conservation Is Critical for Climate, Biodiversity, and Communities

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Protection of the ocean for the last

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couple of decades has really focused on

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area based protection.

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So how much of an area can we protect?

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What is the percentage?

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And over the last decade or so, we've

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been really focusing on protecting 30% of

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ocean and land by 2030.

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So 30 by 30, commonly known as 30 by 30.

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This is something that's been a big

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focus, area based focus.

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But a lot of the times it's focused on

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the offshore area,

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not the near shore area.

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And there's a new paper that was

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published by the Center of American

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Progress called the

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near shore ocean progress.

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It's a document that really highlights

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people who have been in communities who

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have been doing more near

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shore local conservation.

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And that's going to be the subject of

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today's podcast, because we're going to

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be talking about why it's important to

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also focus on the near

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shore as well as the offshore.

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Some of the challenges, some of the

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successes have come through it.

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And we're going to talk about some of the

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projects that have been going on in there

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and some of the reasons why we should go

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more locally these days and not always

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depend on federal resources.

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And we're going to talk about some of the things that we should do in that regard.

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So we're going to talk about that on

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today's episode of the How to Protect the

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Ocean Podcast. Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome back to another

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exciting episode of the How

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to Protect the Ocean Podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

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And this is the podcast where you find

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out what's happening with the ocean, how

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you can speak up for the ocean, and what

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you can do to live for a better ocean by

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taking action on today's episode.

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We've got a special one for you today

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because we have guests from

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the Center of American Progress.

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We've had some of these people on before

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from this organization, like a think

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thing that talks a lot about ocean

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conservation, ocean protection.

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We're going to be going from 30 by 30 and

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into the near shore and why protecting

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the near shore is really important.

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We have Dr. Alia Hadiat, who's here to

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talk about the document as well as Angelo

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Villagomez, friend of the podcast.

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And Alia is going to be

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here a number of times as well.

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I've invited her back a couple of times

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to talk to us in the future about not

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only near shore, but stuff that's coming

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out of the Center of American Progress.

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You're going to love both of them and how

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they are talking about this stuff.

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We're going to talk a lot about why it's

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important to protect the near shore,

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who's involved in protecting the near

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shore, some of the challenges, some of

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the successes that we've seen before in

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protecting the near shore, and a lot of

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other stuff that talks about, you know,

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new federal policies that are coming out

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in the US and why it's important to

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really focus on a local.

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But not always.

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That's the reason is we've

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always had to focus on local.

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So we're going to be talking about a

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document that's been worked on for the

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last two years and where

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it's going to go in the future.

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So I want you to listen to

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this interview carefully.

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It's not going to be the

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last time we talk about this.

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Here is Dr. Alia Hadiat and Angelo

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Villagomez talking about

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near shore ocean progress.

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Enjoy the interview and

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I'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Alia.

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Hey, Angelo.

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Welcome to the How to

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Protect the Ocean podcast.

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I almost messed it up there.

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Are you ready to talk

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about near shore conservation?

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Yeah, let's do it.

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Why I'm here, man.

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All right. I'm excited for this because this is

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something that's been

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it's very close to my heart.

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It's very close to all of our hearts

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because when we look out at a lake or at

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the ocean, we look out a lot of times,

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not necessarily from a boat, but we look

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out from the coast and you always want to

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see a nice coastline.

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You always want to you

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don't want to see green water.

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You don't want it to smell.

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You don't want to see pollution.

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You want to see beautiful water, but that

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hasn't been the focus

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for the last little bit.

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We've we've heard the 30 by 30 rule, you

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know, protect 30 percent of

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the ocean and land by 2030.

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But we haven't really talked a lot about

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the coastal area, the near shore area.

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And it seems to always get more into the

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deep, which is fine.

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Obviously, it's needed, but we always

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need to protect the near shore where we

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are and where we have

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the most disturbance.

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So I'm looking forward

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to getting into this.

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Why such a shift?

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There's a there's a new paper out that

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that's on your website as well.

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People can download it and people go in.

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From my understanding, you've been

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talking about it at

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conferences and so forth.

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So we're here to talk about it today.

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But before we do, I want to get to know

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all the ideas the first

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time you're on the podcast.

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Angel's been on the podcast.

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We'll remind that we'll get Angela to

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remind people who he is and what he does.

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But I want you to let us know

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who you are and what you do.

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All right. Thanks, Andrew.

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This is really exciting.

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This is I think my

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first podcast recording.

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I love it.

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I love it.

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Yeah. Yeah. So I'm Ali.

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I'm a senior policy analyst at the Center

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for American Progress with Angelo working

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on conservation policy

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and ocean conservation.

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Before this, I actually got a PhD in

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ocean science in the impacts of climate

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on human health and then ended up coming

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to policy after realizing that, hey, a

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lot of ocean problems are not science

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problems or research problems.

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So a couple of years ago, made a pivot

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into ocean policy, started

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move to D.C. and started here.

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So I have to ask this question because my

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daughter is in grade 12.

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She is going to

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university for wildlife biology.

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She wants to be a biologist and I've

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talked to her about policy and the

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importance of policy, but

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she's on like one track mind.

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I want to work with animals.

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So for you going into science, what was

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your like, what was this type of science?

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What were you doing? Were you were like,

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were you doing science on specific

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animals or was it like

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habitats or like oceanography?

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What was it about?

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Yeah, no, I think that's sort of the I

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think bringing marine biologists is a

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very glamorous position.

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I think like what when you think of like

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kids, like what you want to do, like as a

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child, I feel like it's

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marine biologists or astronaut.

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They actually caught that bug early.

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And I imagine sort of the science and

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research career to be.

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And so during my PhD, I worked with

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zebrafish and looked at

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the effects of our flowers.

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So red tide by other types

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of purple algae on the brain.

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So it's still extremely fun.

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I love science, but it's

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also really difficult work.

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And it's a lot of being able to

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troubleshoot and run into all again and

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again and again and solve problems.

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I think I really enjoyed

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the research aspect of it.

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But again, as I mentioned, so much of the

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problems that we're facing right now are

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not research problems.

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Science can help us understand them.

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But we really need to bring people along

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and convince our policymakers and the

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community that they represent to get on

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board with these solutions.

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So made a clear pivot towards that.

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I think your daughter definitely like has

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like I love that interest.

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That's really exciting. Yeah.

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Just increasing that hate like the ocean

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and the animals that live in it and all

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that ecosystems are really exciting.

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Think about what are the most effective

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ways that we as people can help support

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them and keep them safe.

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And a lot of those

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solutions that are policy solutions.

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Yeah, especially when you're talking

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about harmful algal blooms to write it

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kind of hits you right in the face of

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what you need to do to get over that.

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And I find a lot of people who come up

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through the ranks of academia and they

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and they do marine biology or wildlife

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biology or more research on on specific

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biology research

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questions pivot to policy.

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But was that a

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difficult thing for you to do?

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Like, you know, you're always when you're

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a kid, were you imagining

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always working with animals?

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And then as you as you mature through the

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academic process and you start to see and

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you start to kind of get enlightened.

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I always called it when I got it when I

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started to get into conservation.

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Was it a hard to pivot to that or was it

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something like, no, I

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this is where I need it.

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Yeah, I think it was

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definitely a learning process.

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I think I definitely had that image of my

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head of working on a boat diving being

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out in nature a lot more and you don't

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realize that, hey, I'm a couple years

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into my PhD and I'm spending most of my

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time in a lab or working in Python.

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I think that's not

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necessarily a bad thing.

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I think all those

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skills are really important.

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And that's that's how real science works.

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But yeah, I think there is definitely a

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transition into what what

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does this actually look like?

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What is a science career in science

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actually look like in the day to day?

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And that's different than

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what you might imagine as a kid.

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And I think it's where from my position

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now it's I think it was definitely took a

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little bit to see how being I work in

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office nine to five and in

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in DC far away from the ocean.

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01:07:55,333 --> 01:07:56,916
But I still think that the work that we

277
01:07:56,916 --> 01:07:58,958
do is really important even if we're not

278
01:07:58,958 --> 01:08:01,000
interacting with that every day.

279
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:04,000
And so, yeah, I think there's definitely

280
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:06,708
like a little bit of a switch to see that

281
01:08:06,708 --> 01:08:08,166
type of job is still really important,

282
01:08:08,166 --> 01:08:10,916
even if it doesn't look like what you

283
01:08:10,916 --> 01:08:12,166
would imagine as a wildlife

284
01:08:12,166 --> 01:08:13,708
biologist or a marine biologist.

285
01:08:14,458 --> 01:08:15,958
It's important work.

286
01:08:15,958 --> 01:08:17,500
It's probably one of the most important

287
01:08:17,500 --> 01:08:19,750
works we do as conservationists and as

288
01:08:19,750 --> 01:08:21,750
scientists really is to make sure that we

289
01:08:21,750 --> 01:08:23,000
can enact the stuff that we identify as the problems in science to make sure we get through.

290
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:28,083
Angela, you've been doing this for quite

291
01:08:28,083 --> 01:08:29,875
some time now and working a lot of policy

292
01:08:29,875 --> 01:08:31,875
and and working with different groups and

293
01:08:31,875 --> 01:08:34,208
working in offices and also being out and

294
01:08:34,208 --> 01:08:35,291
traveling the world and stuff.

295
01:08:36,500 --> 01:08:37,250
What are your when you

296
01:08:37,250 --> 01:08:38,125
first started your career?

297
01:08:38,125 --> 01:08:38,791
Let's go way back.

298
01:08:38,833 --> 01:08:40,166
You and I were about the same.

299
01:08:40,166 --> 01:08:42,083
We're the same age going way back.

300
01:08:42,083 --> 01:08:43,458
I'm not sure if you remember when you

301
01:08:43,458 --> 01:08:45,125
first started and then coming into

302
01:08:45,125 --> 01:08:47,416
policy, like, how do you find your career

303
01:08:47,416 --> 01:08:49,000
shifting and going into more.

304
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:52,208
I mean, you were you were always into conservation. Right.

305
01:08:53,583 --> 01:08:53,875
Like you.

306
01:08:54,625 --> 01:08:57,583
And so where you're at now with some of

307
01:08:57,583 --> 01:08:59,375
the things that you're kind of leading

308
01:08:59,375 --> 01:09:03,083
and pushing in terms of policy, how do

309
01:09:03,083 --> 01:09:04,833
you find your work now, like at this

310
01:09:04,833 --> 01:09:05,541
stage of your career?

311
01:09:06,208 --> 01:09:08,166
Well, I'm a large marine mammal.

312
01:09:08,833 --> 01:09:09,583
I don't know if you knew that.

313
01:09:10,125 --> 01:09:13,000
So to a certain degree, Alia does work with animals every single day.

314
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:20,166
It's in an office and it's with a boat.

315
01:09:21,041 --> 01:09:23,125
But I also you know, when I was in high

316
01:09:23,125 --> 01:09:26,125
school, I wanted I like the only thing I

317
01:09:26,125 --> 01:09:27,541
thought I could be was a scientist like

318
01:09:27,541 --> 01:09:29,958
the other things just did not excite me.

319
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:33,291
And in the 1990s, the things that were

320
01:09:33,291 --> 01:09:34,291
offered to me were either

321
01:09:34,291 --> 01:09:35,916
chemistry, physics or biology.

322
01:09:36,500 --> 01:09:37,208
You kind of had to

323
01:09:37,208 --> 01:09:39,000
pick between those three.

324
01:09:39,666 --> 01:09:40,000
And I gravitated.

325
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:46,333
I started with physics, which I hated because it was all math. And then I I'm actually good at math.

326
01:09:46,333 --> 01:09:46,791
I just didn't want to

327
01:09:46,791 --> 01:09:47,708
do it for my entire life.

328
01:09:48,500 --> 01:09:50,333
But then I pivoted into biology.

329
01:09:50,583 --> 01:09:51,875
And that's kind of where I discovered

330
01:09:51,875 --> 01:09:55,291
conservation because I learned that you

331
01:09:55,291 --> 01:09:56,333
know, you could you could spend your

332
01:09:56,333 --> 01:09:59,583
entire life studying beetles, naming them

333
01:09:59,583 --> 01:10:00,666
and learning what they do.

334
01:10:00,916 --> 01:10:03,083
But then a multinational, a multinational

335
01:10:03,083 --> 01:10:05,041
corporation could come in and cut down

336
01:10:05,041 --> 01:10:06,291
your rank for the weekend.

337
01:10:06,625 --> 01:10:08,000
And your life's work would be over.

338
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:14,791
So that kind of made me think about what I was going to do. And I started knocking on doors for

339
01:10:14,791 --> 01:10:16,166
political campaigns in college.

340
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:58,083
And I was always stabbed by that mysterious

341
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:07,916
I love, which is you guys are on this

342
01:11:07,916 --> 01:11:09,166
podcast today to talk

343
01:11:09,166 --> 01:11:11,291
about, you know, how policies

344
01:11:11,500 --> 01:11:12,291
need to switch.

345
01:11:12,500 --> 01:11:15,833
Now for the last, I would say good, like

346
01:11:15,833 --> 01:11:17,875
five, six years even,

347
01:11:18,083 --> 01:11:19,166
we've been really focusing

348
01:11:19,208 --> 01:11:20,666
on 30 by 30.

349
01:11:20,666 --> 01:11:22,083
So protecting 30% of

350
01:11:22,083 --> 01:11:25,375
water and 30% of land by 2030.

351
01:11:26,666 --> 01:11:28,000
Regimes shift, you know,

352
01:11:28,000 --> 01:11:29,666
administration shift, they change.

353
01:11:29,916 --> 01:11:31,708
There's still a focus on

354
01:11:31,708 --> 01:11:33,291
that, still talking about that.

355
01:11:33,875 --> 01:11:35,125
Whether we're going to be able to get

356
01:11:35,125 --> 01:11:36,041
that from a, from an

357
01:11:36,041 --> 01:11:36,833
international perspective,

358
01:11:36,833 --> 01:11:38,333
like a worldwide perspective, that's

359
01:11:38,333 --> 01:11:39,583
still to be debated.

360
01:11:39,583 --> 01:11:41,500
And it seems like as we get closer and

361
01:11:41,500 --> 01:11:44,375
closer to the 2030 time,

362
01:11:44,375 --> 01:11:45,750
it doesn't look like we'll

363
01:11:45,750 --> 01:11:46,625
get there, but we'll get

364
01:11:46,625 --> 01:11:48,291
better than what we were before.

365
01:11:49,458 --> 01:11:52,000
But, you know, now with everything that's

366
01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:52,916
happening in the US,

367
01:11:53,375 --> 01:11:54,416
you know, there's, there's

368
01:11:54,416 --> 01:11:56,583
a shift away from conservation.

369
01:11:56,625 --> 01:12:00,916
You know, Angela, where is the 30 by 30

370
01:12:00,916 --> 01:12:04,166
sort of, I guess, not

371
01:12:04,166 --> 01:12:05,958
activism or advocacy, but

372
01:12:05,958 --> 01:12:07,666
the trying to push 30 by 30.

373
01:12:08,291 --> 01:12:11,000
Where is that at right now in the US with

374
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:12,791
these changes with the government?

375
01:12:13,625 --> 01:12:14,541
So first of all, I think

376
01:12:14,541 --> 01:12:15,500
you're absolutely right.

377
01:12:15,500 --> 01:12:17,833
This shift in conservation priorities has

378
01:12:17,833 --> 01:12:19,041
always happened, you

379
01:12:19,041 --> 01:12:19,875
know, for the last hundred

380
01:12:19,958 --> 01:12:22,041
years, you know, back in Teddy Roosevelt

381
01:12:22,041 --> 01:12:22,916
days, and he was the

382
01:12:22,916 --> 01:12:23,875
American president in

383
01:12:23,875 --> 01:12:25,291
the early 1900s.

384
01:12:25,541 --> 01:12:26,916
He created all these national parks

385
01:12:26,916 --> 01:12:28,791
because he wanted scenic landscapes.

386
01:12:29,833 --> 01:12:31,666
And we still love scenic landscapes, and

387
01:12:31,666 --> 01:12:32,708
we love to go there and

388
01:12:32,708 --> 01:12:33,958
take our Instagram photos.

389
01:12:34,291 --> 01:12:35,625
But it's not the driving

390
01:12:35,625 --> 01:12:37,666
reason why we do conservation today.

391
01:12:38,500 --> 01:12:40,000
And the conservation movement has always

392
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:41,583
changed every 10 or 15

393
01:12:41,583 --> 01:12:43,708
years with Rachel Carson's

394
01:12:43,708 --> 01:12:45,208
book in the 1960s.

395
01:12:45,625 --> 01:12:47,125
Aldo Leopold before that.

396
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:49,000
And then like when you and I were growing

397
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:50,083
up was all about save

398
01:12:50,083 --> 01:12:51,958
the whales, you know,

399
01:12:52,375 --> 01:12:53,791
fix the save the ozone layer.

400
01:12:55,125 --> 01:12:56,625
Save the rainforest.

401
01:12:57,833 --> 01:12:59,666
And then, you know, climate change kind

402
01:12:59,666 --> 01:13:00,375
of became much more

403
01:13:00,375 --> 01:13:01,916
important in the 2000s.

404
01:13:02,125 --> 01:13:03,958
And then after 2020, it was equity and

405
01:13:03,958 --> 01:13:05,083
justice because of the

406
01:13:05,083 --> 01:13:06,583
murder of George Floyd.

407
01:13:07,083 --> 01:13:08,708
So I, you know, before I even answer that

408
01:13:08,708 --> 01:13:10,708
question, this change is good.

409
01:13:11,291 --> 01:13:13,666
And we the conservation community has

410
01:13:13,666 --> 01:13:16,166
talked about these area

411
01:13:16,166 --> 01:13:17,666
targets for literally decades.

412
01:13:18,208 --> 01:13:20,416
If you look back at David Brower, who led

413
01:13:20,416 --> 01:13:22,875
the Sierra Club in the 1960s and 70s,

414
01:13:23,375 --> 01:13:24,791
the Sierra Club was talking about

415
01:13:24,791 --> 01:13:26,000
protecting 10% of the

416
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:27,916
land back in the 1960s.

417
01:13:28,291 --> 01:13:31,375
So it's not a new idea, but what changed

418
01:13:31,375 --> 01:13:33,958
is it became the primary, it became the

419
01:13:33,958 --> 01:13:36,333
bumper sticker slogan for about,

420
01:13:36,416 --> 01:13:38,166
I would say about 10 years, because when

421
01:13:38,166 --> 01:13:38,875
I worked for the Pew

422
01:13:38,875 --> 01:13:41,458
Charitable Trusts in 2016,

423
01:13:42,583 --> 01:13:44,416
we were actually the ones who sponsored

424
01:13:44,416 --> 01:13:45,750
that resolution at the

425
01:13:45,750 --> 01:13:46,875
International Union for the

426
01:13:46,875 --> 01:13:47,708
Conservation of Nature.

427
01:13:48,500 --> 01:13:50,875
So I helped draft that resolution and

428
01:13:50,875 --> 01:13:52,625
recruited the other 20 sponsors

429
01:13:52,625 --> 01:13:54,416
negotiated the language.

430
01:13:54,750 --> 01:13:55,291
So like for a good

431
01:13:55,291 --> 01:13:58,000
decade, 30 by 30 has been it.

432
01:13:58,791 --> 01:14:00,666
And if you if you if you browse people's

433
01:14:00,666 --> 01:14:02,500
websites today, they talk about we have

434
01:14:02,500 --> 01:14:03,750
to achieve 30 by 30,

435
01:14:04,250 --> 01:14:07,166
which is 30% of lands and oceans by 2030.

436
01:14:07,875 --> 01:14:09,166
But if you really start to pick apart

437
01:14:09,166 --> 01:14:11,125
some of these, like the arguments for 20,

438
01:14:11,708 --> 01:14:14,958
the arguments for 30 by 30, at its core,

439
01:14:14,958 --> 01:14:16,375
what it really means is

440
01:14:16,375 --> 01:14:18,083
we need more conservation

441
01:14:18,750 --> 01:14:20,750
we need better conservation and we need

442
01:14:20,750 --> 01:14:22,000
faster conservation.

443
01:14:22,541 --> 01:14:24,125
And then I would add in there in the last

444
01:14:24,125 --> 01:14:26,041
five years, it's we need more equitable

445
01:14:26,041 --> 01:14:27,458
and just conservation.

446
01:14:28,250 --> 01:14:30,541
So I don't think that 30 by 30 is coming

447
01:14:30,541 --> 01:14:31,833
to the coming to an end.

448
01:14:32,500 --> 01:14:34,375
I think we're going to continue to use

449
01:14:34,375 --> 01:14:35,750
area targets as a metric.

450
01:14:36,250 --> 01:14:37,083
You know, you're still going to want to

451
01:14:37,083 --> 01:14:38,083
know we're going to

452
01:14:38,083 --> 01:14:39,000
talk about kelp, right?

453
01:14:39,208 --> 01:14:40,208
You're going to want to know how much

454
01:14:40,208 --> 01:14:40,958
kelp is protected

455
01:14:40,958 --> 01:14:42,250
because that's going to help

456
01:14:42,500 --> 01:14:43,916
managers with their their

457
01:14:43,916 --> 01:14:45,416
decisions on how to manage it.

458
01:14:45,833 --> 01:14:46,625
But it's not going to be the goal.

459
01:14:47,375 --> 01:14:49,000
It's not going to be it's not going to be

460
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:50,750
the thing at the top of your paper.

461
01:14:51,375 --> 01:14:53,750
It's and you know, the funny thing about

462
01:14:53,750 --> 01:14:55,041
this paper that we just proposed

463
01:14:55,791 --> 01:14:57,208
is that we haven't come to agreement

464
01:14:57,208 --> 01:14:58,916
around what that thing is.

465
01:14:59,708 --> 01:15:02,083
Like there's these all of these targets

466
01:15:02,083 --> 01:15:05,125
and in 2030, and in 2031,

467
01:15:05,125 --> 01:15:06,500
we're going to need a new

468
01:15:06,500 --> 01:15:09,083
bumper sticker. And I don't think there's

469
01:15:09,083 --> 01:15:10,000
agreement yet as to what

470
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:11,041
that bumper sticker is.

471
01:15:11,041 --> 01:15:12,125
And I think different different

472
01:15:12,125 --> 01:15:13,708
organizations are kind of

473
01:15:13,708 --> 01:15:15,791
hovering around what it might be.

474
01:15:16,666 --> 01:15:17,916
The World Wildlife Foundation

475
01:15:17,916 --> 01:15:19,458
talks about nature positive.

476
01:15:21,041 --> 01:15:22,500
I just went to the Tiyaki Moana

477
01:15:22,500 --> 01:15:24,625
conference with Tiyaki in sort of like

478
01:15:24,625 --> 01:15:26,291
guardian and Moana means

479
01:15:26,291 --> 01:15:28,000
ocean. So I think there's this

480
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:30,000
combination of people and

481
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:31,833
nature and equity and justice,

482
01:15:32,583 --> 01:15:34,833
but also strong and good conservation

483
01:15:34,833 --> 01:15:36,000
that is that is well

484
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:37,375
designed and implemented.

485
01:15:38,333 --> 01:15:40,500
And I've literally just spent like

486
01:15:40,500 --> 01:15:41,833
several minutes talking

487
01:15:41,833 --> 01:15:43,208
about what could go down on

488
01:15:43,208 --> 01:15:45,666
a bumper sticker and you know, and some

489
01:15:45,666 --> 01:15:46,958
brilliant person is going to offer

490
01:15:46,958 --> 01:15:48,041
something at some moment.

491
01:15:48,416 --> 01:15:50,333
And that's what the 2030s will be about.

492
01:15:50,583 --> 01:15:51,583
And so that that's

493
01:15:51,583 --> 01:15:52,666
what I hope this report

494
01:15:53,708 --> 01:15:56,541
helps begin that discussion of, you know,

495
01:15:56,541 --> 01:15:57,625
30 by 30 has been

496
01:15:57,625 --> 01:15:59,833
great. It's raised ambitions.

497
01:16:00,791 --> 01:16:02,291
More money is pouring into the

498
01:16:02,291 --> 01:16:03,250
conservation movement than

499
01:16:03,250 --> 01:16:05,333
ever. It's inspired people.

500
01:16:05,875 --> 01:16:07,666
You've got presidents, you know, Joe

501
01:16:07,666 --> 01:16:09,375
Biden talked about 30 by 30

502
01:16:09,375 --> 01:16:10,541
in his state of the union.

503
01:16:10,583 --> 01:16:12,875
When has that ever happened in the United

504
01:16:12,875 --> 01:16:14,708
States? So like it's

505
01:16:14,708 --> 01:16:16,666
been incredibly great.

506
01:16:17,333 --> 01:16:20,583
You know, so but what have we learned?

507
01:16:21,708 --> 01:16:24,250
You know, post most of the science for 30

508
01:16:24,250 --> 01:16:27,166
by 30 is from the 2000s and the 2010s.

509
01:16:27,166 --> 01:16:28,708
And it doesn't really take into account

510
01:16:28,708 --> 01:16:29,541
everything that

511
01:16:29,541 --> 01:16:30,708
happened after George Floyd.

512
01:16:31,333 --> 01:16:33,500
So, you know, so much science and so much

513
01:16:33,500 --> 01:16:34,458
learning and experience

514
01:16:34,458 --> 01:16:36,208
has happened in the 2020s.

515
01:16:36,583 --> 01:16:39,250
How do we take that and come up with the

516
01:16:39,250 --> 01:16:40,916
next thing? And that's the

517
01:16:40,916 --> 01:16:41,708
question that we're asking.

518
01:16:42,500 --> 01:16:43,625
And I think it's great because I think,

519
01:16:43,625 --> 01:16:45,333
you know, one of the concerns I remember

520
01:16:45,333 --> 01:16:47,125
when all this was happening

521
01:16:47,125 --> 01:16:50,083
when the 2030 was being proposed.

522
01:16:50,583 --> 01:16:52,583
I remember here in Canada, the federal

523
01:16:52,583 --> 01:16:54,500
government under Trudeau was like, we're

524
01:16:54,500 --> 01:16:55,291
going to increase ours.

525
01:16:55,291 --> 01:16:57,208
And we were at like 1% at the time or

526
01:16:57,208 --> 01:16:59,333
1.5% and he increased it or his

527
01:16:59,333 --> 01:17:00,250
government increased it to

528
01:17:00,250 --> 01:17:01,958
like 15% within a few years.

529
01:17:02,250 --> 01:17:03,791
And so the big the big worry was like,

530
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:06,500
are these going to be like properly

531
01:17:06,500 --> 01:17:08,750
protected or are they just picking random

532
01:17:08,750 --> 01:17:09,958
areas like the low hanging fruit?

533
01:17:10,083 --> 01:17:12,000
Like, you know, we picked Arctic areas,

534
01:17:12,416 --> 01:17:14,083
which, you know, Angela, you've talked

535
01:17:14,083 --> 01:17:17,083
about this on huge stages before where we

536
01:17:17,083 --> 01:17:19,458
we tend to go to indigenous places to be

537
01:17:19,458 --> 01:17:21,541
able to protect those places because

538
01:17:21,541 --> 01:17:24,166
there there tend to be larger coverages

539
01:17:24,166 --> 01:17:26,000
and you tend to get more area.

540
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:28,750
But are they really, you know, talking

541
01:17:28,750 --> 01:17:30,500
about justice and equity and equitability

542
01:17:30,500 --> 01:17:32,833
in in their equity in these areas?

543
01:17:32,833 --> 01:17:34,500
Are they really where we need to focus or

544
01:17:34,500 --> 01:17:36,000
do we need to focus in areas where

545
01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:38,041
there's a little bit more controversy, a

546
01:17:38,041 --> 01:17:39,916
little bit more action in terms of

547
01:17:39,916 --> 01:17:41,708
disturbance in terms of really where we

548
01:17:41,708 --> 01:17:43,625
need to get that conservation.

549
01:17:43,875 --> 01:17:46,083
So I really like that sort of the

550
01:17:46,083 --> 01:17:46,708
evolution of

551
01:17:46,708 --> 01:17:47,833
conservation, how it's going.

552
01:17:48,125 --> 01:17:50,541
It's not to say that 30 by 30 sucked into

553
01:17:50,541 --> 01:17:51,375
it. It didn't do anything.

554
01:17:51,583 --> 01:17:52,416
It obviously did a lot

555
01:17:52,416 --> 01:17:53,541
and it made us learn a lot.

556
01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:55,833
And then with all these things that

557
01:17:55,833 --> 01:17:58,083
happened, such as, you know, the

558
01:17:58,083 --> 01:17:59,833
unfortunate events of what happened to

559
01:17:59,833 --> 01:18:01,583
George Floyd and then what happened after

560
01:18:01,583 --> 01:18:04,375
that, we started to really push on this.

561
01:18:04,375 --> 01:18:05,458
Now, I have to ask this.

562
01:18:06,208 --> 01:18:06,708
I'm in Canada.

563
01:18:07,416 --> 01:18:09,333
You know, I'm here sitting sitting above

564
01:18:09,333 --> 01:18:10,625
you, sitting above you guys

565
01:18:10,625 --> 01:18:13,583
geographically and looking down and and,

566
01:18:13,583 --> 01:18:16,291
you know, the the the definite focus has

567
01:18:16,291 --> 01:18:17,916
been, you know, when we look at

568
01:18:17,916 --> 01:18:19,333
conservation is is

569
01:18:19,333 --> 01:18:21,500
justice, equity, inclusion.

570
01:18:22,833 --> 01:18:24,333
But then, of course, you know, this

571
01:18:24,333 --> 01:18:26,375
administration comes in in the U.S.

572
01:18:26,375 --> 01:18:28,208
And it says, yeah, well, well, D.I.

573
01:18:28,208 --> 01:18:30,208
is gone. It's over like everybody.

574
01:18:30,625 --> 01:18:32,083
And here in Canada is kind of resonated

575
01:18:32,083 --> 01:18:32,833
with a lot of people.

576
01:18:32,833 --> 01:18:34,291
It's like we're not doing that anymore.

577
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:36,500
This is this is all B.S.

578
01:18:36,500 --> 01:18:37,750
And we're not doing this.

579
01:18:37,750 --> 01:18:39,333
But we've really found a

580
01:18:39,333 --> 01:18:40,500
good thing in conservation.

581
01:18:40,708 --> 01:18:42,416
Like, obviously, I'm not saying that D.I.

582
01:18:42,416 --> 01:18:43,416
was was worth nothing.

583
01:18:43,416 --> 01:18:44,833
It's obviously it's still there.

584
01:18:45,291 --> 01:18:46,708
It's not disappeared just because one

585
01:18:46,708 --> 01:18:47,583
person says so or a

586
01:18:47,583 --> 01:18:48,625
couple of people say so.

587
01:18:48,791 --> 01:18:49,625
And it's still needed.

588
01:18:49,625 --> 01:18:50,916
It's still it's still good for us.

589
01:18:51,250 --> 01:18:53,166
In conservation, especially, because now

590
01:18:53,166 --> 01:18:56,125
we're really starting to dive into

591
01:18:56,125 --> 01:18:58,583
community management and so forth.

592
01:19:00,083 --> 01:19:02,875
How is is that being met in the

593
01:19:02,875 --> 01:19:03,875
conservation community

594
01:19:03,875 --> 01:19:06,000
when you have an ally?

595
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:07,541
Maybe you can comment on this.

596
01:19:07,541 --> 01:19:10,375
And when you have such of like a

597
01:19:10,375 --> 01:19:13,208
controversy here or like a conflict

598
01:19:13,208 --> 01:19:14,833
between what the federal government is

599
01:19:14,833 --> 01:19:16,500
saying and then what the conservation

600
01:19:16,500 --> 01:19:17,416
community is saying, what

601
01:19:17,416 --> 01:19:18,666
we need to move forward with.

602
01:19:20,166 --> 01:19:21,291
Yeah, that's a really good question.

603
01:19:21,583 --> 01:19:22,541
A really hard question.

604
01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:26,916
I'd say that one of the cool things about

605
01:19:26,916 --> 01:19:28,666
the nearshore framework and the concept

606
01:19:28,666 --> 01:19:31,625
of moving nearshore in general with our

607
01:19:31,625 --> 01:19:34,375
conservation focus is that it's like you

608
01:19:34,375 --> 01:19:36,416
mentioned a really fundamental shift in

609
01:19:36,416 --> 01:19:37,625
what our goals are for

610
01:19:37,625 --> 01:19:38,666
conservation, what it's getting to do.

611
01:19:38,708 --> 01:19:41,333
I think to go back to what Angela was

612
01:19:41,333 --> 01:19:44,083
saying, there was a time period for Teddy

613
01:19:44,083 --> 01:19:46,500
Roosevelt where a lot of the focus was on

614
01:19:46,500 --> 01:19:48,000
putting nature and protecting it and

615
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:49,458
safeguarding it away from where people

616
01:19:49,458 --> 01:19:50,083
are and nature is

617
01:19:50,083 --> 01:19:51,041
something that you go and visit.

618
01:19:52,375 --> 01:19:54,625
And today with this report, we want to

619
01:19:54,625 --> 01:19:56,500
really encourage people to see nature as

620
01:19:56,500 --> 01:19:58,458
something that works for people, works

621
01:19:58,458 --> 01:19:59,583
for coastal communities

622
01:19:59,583 --> 01:20:00,666
in addition to ecosystems.

623
01:20:00,708 --> 01:20:04,500
So this means helping protect coastal

624
01:20:04,500 --> 01:20:06,333
communities from effects of storms and

625
01:20:06,333 --> 01:20:09,333
flooding, helping provide livelihoods,

626
01:20:10,083 --> 01:20:12,750
economic benefits, important part of

627
01:20:12,750 --> 01:20:15,083
culture or religious

628
01:20:15,083 --> 01:20:16,458
connection for some communities.

629
01:20:17,000 --> 01:20:19,541
All of these are aspects of nature and

630
01:20:19,541 --> 01:20:20,666
coastal communities that are really

631
01:20:20,666 --> 01:20:23,791
important and I think our focus as

632
01:20:23,791 --> 01:20:24,208
conservation

633
01:20:24,208 --> 01:20:25,666
professionals should focus there.

634
01:20:26,708 --> 01:20:29,791
So I think one nice thing about moving

635
01:20:29,791 --> 01:20:31,666
nearshore away from those really large,

636
01:20:31,708 --> 01:20:34,375
tragic protected areas is that you're

637
01:20:34,375 --> 01:20:36,583
putting nature within reach of people and

638
01:20:36,583 --> 01:20:38,000
make putting your protections where

639
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:39,750
people can see them and experience them

640
01:20:39,750 --> 01:20:40,708
and benefit from them.

641
01:20:41,041 --> 01:20:47,208
So even though for my frustration, a lot

642
01:20:47,208 --> 01:20:49,375
of people are walking away from DEI

643
01:20:49,375 --> 01:20:52,166
promises and interest in equity, I think

644
01:20:52,166 --> 01:20:53,583
that there's still a lot of benefits that

645
01:20:53,583 --> 01:20:55,750
can be provided to communities that have

646
01:20:55,750 --> 01:20:57,625
historically not been able to access

647
01:20:57,625 --> 01:20:58,458
nature who have not been

648
01:20:58,458 --> 01:20:59,666
able to benefit from nature.

649
01:20:59,708 --> 01:21:03,208
I just shifting our focus conservation.

650
01:21:04,208 --> 01:21:06,500
So while I would love to be a place where

651
01:21:06,500 --> 01:21:09,125
there's a strong federal commitment to

652
01:21:09,125 --> 01:21:10,500
the AI and saying this principle is out

653
01:21:10,500 --> 01:21:13,041
loud, I think one of the benefits of

654
01:21:13,041 --> 01:21:14,375
shifting focus is that

655
01:21:14,375 --> 01:21:15,583
there's going to be benefits for

656
01:21:16,083 --> 01:21:19,333
sort of underserved communities, even if

657
01:21:19,333 --> 01:21:21,833
you have to fly under the radar a little

658
01:21:21,833 --> 01:21:25,541
bit. Does it also help that when you

659
01:21:25,541 --> 01:21:26,958
start to talk about nearshore, you're

660
01:21:26,958 --> 01:21:28,625
starting to talk about state jurisdiction

661
01:21:28,625 --> 01:21:29,666
instead of federal jurisdiction.

662
01:21:29,708 --> 01:21:32,333
And so certain states, I'm not saying all

663
01:21:32,333 --> 01:21:34,250
states, but certain states might be more

664
01:21:34,250 --> 01:21:38,250
likable and more agreeable with this type

665
01:21:38,250 --> 01:21:42,083
of equity justice, sort of DEI type of

666
01:21:42,083 --> 01:21:43,583
work that will really focus

667
01:21:43,583 --> 01:21:45,000
conservation in the nearshore.

668
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:47,375
Angela, do you find that is a benefit in

669
01:21:47,375 --> 01:21:48,666
this situation when the federal

670
01:21:48,666 --> 01:21:50,500
government may not be willing to work as

671
01:21:50,500 --> 01:21:52,666
hard to do these conservation goals?

672
01:21:52,708 --> 01:21:55,541
I mean, the real answer is we were going

673
01:21:55,541 --> 01:21:57,125
to do this regardless who won the

674
01:21:57,125 --> 01:22:00,583
president election. Trump didn't win and

675
01:22:00,583 --> 01:22:01,791
we said, oh, we need to pivot to

676
01:22:01,791 --> 01:22:03,166
nearshore. We've been

677
01:22:03,166 --> 01:22:04,583
working on this for two years.

678
01:22:05,500 --> 01:22:06,541
Now, it would have looked slightly

679
01:22:06,541 --> 01:22:09,708
different under Biden and Trump has ended

680
01:22:09,708 --> 01:22:11,416
30 by 30. So let's not

681
01:22:11,416 --> 01:22:12,666
get ourselves. That's true.

682
01:22:12,708 --> 01:22:16,166
30 by 30 is over at the federal level and

683
01:22:16,166 --> 01:22:19,375
then many DEI initiatives while may not

684
01:22:19,375 --> 01:22:23,041
overturned or under attack by Trump. And

685
01:22:23,041 --> 01:22:25,791
Trump is a guy who loves to build walls.

686
01:22:26,708 --> 01:22:29,000
He loves to build walls between peoples.

687
01:22:30,125 --> 01:22:32,125
And right now what they're doing is

688
01:22:32,125 --> 01:22:35,750
they're building walls to keep women and

689
01:22:35,750 --> 01:22:38,166
people of color who are qualified to

690
01:22:38,166 --> 01:22:39,291
participate in these positions.

691
01:22:40,041 --> 01:22:41,791
And he's building those walls back up.

692
01:22:42,166 --> 01:22:44,416
And America has always had those walls.

693
01:22:44,416 --> 01:22:46,541
You know, we've only allowed white women

694
01:22:46,541 --> 01:22:48,958
to vote in this country for 100 years.

695
01:22:49,750 --> 01:22:53,125
And America turns 250 next year. So it's

696
01:22:53,125 --> 01:22:57,750
for 150 years. White women were not

697
01:22:57,750 --> 01:22:59,583
allowed to vote and then only for 100

698
01:22:59,583 --> 01:23:02,083
years. So less than half the time that

699
01:23:02,083 --> 01:23:03,208
this country has been a country.

700
01:23:03,833 --> 01:23:06,916
And so, you know, indigenous peoples have

701
01:23:06,916 --> 01:23:08,666
been able to vote for less than 100

702
01:23:08,666 --> 01:23:11,500
years. The territories are still

703
01:23:11,500 --> 01:23:15,000
considered savages like officially by the

704
01:23:15,000 --> 01:23:17,750
Supreme Court. So like there's the Biden

705
01:23:17,750 --> 01:23:20,208
administration had done a lot of work to

706
01:23:20,208 --> 01:23:22,791
break down the barriers that keep

707
01:23:22,791 --> 01:23:24,750
qualified people out of positions.

708
01:23:50,625 --> 01:23:50,833
And so, you know, I think that's what

709
01:23:50,833 --> 01:23:53,666
we're going to look at.

710
01:23:53,708 --> 01:24:15,166
I think what's going on there is an Nightmare's Day this year. I actually saw he was in a group of brown faces and I thought I knew what Miles']

711
01:24:15,166 --> 01:24:15,666
Everybody is going to be the king and I know you can say this what Miles' mom person said.

712
01:24:15,708 --> 01:24:17,416
going to work there. You know,

713
01:24:17,833 --> 01:24:18,875
with these doge cuts that are

714
01:24:18,875 --> 01:24:20,916
happening, I think NOAA has

715
01:24:20,916 --> 01:24:23,833
already lost 28% of its staff

716
01:24:24,208 --> 01:24:24,958
that worked there in

717
01:24:24,958 --> 01:24:27,375
December. And then the number for the

718
01:24:27,375 --> 01:24:28,250
Department of Interior was

719
01:24:28,250 --> 01:24:30,333
in my head. But in the last 60

720
01:24:30,333 --> 01:24:31,916
seconds, it departed my head.

721
01:24:32,625 --> 01:24:33,708
But it's in the double digits.

722
01:24:34,333 --> 01:24:34,916
Yeah, it's insane.

723
01:24:36,041 --> 01:24:37,750
And they're not done like

724
01:24:37,750 --> 01:24:40,375
they're more cuts are coming

725
01:24:40,375 --> 01:24:41,833
to our federal government. And you just

726
01:24:41,833 --> 01:24:42,541
think about the people

727
01:24:42,666 --> 01:24:44,750
who work there. And the literal the

728
01:24:44,750 --> 01:24:46,500
centuries of experience

729
01:24:46,708 --> 01:24:47,541
that these hundreds and

730
01:24:47,541 --> 01:24:48,750
thousands of people who had,

731
01:24:49,333 --> 01:24:50,083
and like, just imagine you

732
01:24:50,083 --> 01:24:51,833
worked at a restaurant, you

733
01:24:51,833 --> 01:24:52,458
know, if you work at a

734
01:24:52,458 --> 01:24:53,875
restaurant, and you know, so

735
01:24:53,875 --> 01:24:55,333
what they've already done is

736
01:24:55,333 --> 01:24:57,083
they fired all of the young

737
01:24:57,083 --> 01:24:59,500
waiters and all of the young cooks who

738
01:24:59,500 --> 01:25:00,500
are doing, you know,

739
01:25:00,500 --> 01:25:01,791
chopping the vegetables, right? Or

740
01:25:01,791 --> 01:25:02,708
they're doing the side work.

741
01:25:03,250 --> 01:25:05,000
And then they forced all of your senior

742
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:05,958
waiters, your senior

743
01:25:06,000 --> 01:25:08,666
managers and your senior cooks to retire.

744
01:25:09,666 --> 01:25:10,583
Like who's left? And

745
01:25:10,625 --> 01:25:12,166
what has that done to the

746
01:25:12,166 --> 01:25:14,041
culture of your business, right?

747
01:25:14,041 --> 01:25:16,416
You know, these people have people, if

748
01:25:16,416 --> 01:25:17,458
you want to get good

749
01:25:17,500 --> 01:25:18,791
stuff out of your employees,

750
01:25:19,083 --> 01:25:20,083
they have to they have to like

751
01:25:20,083 --> 01:25:22,166
to work there. And so just

752
01:25:22,166 --> 01:25:24,625
sort of like at, at all angles,

753
01:25:25,458 --> 01:25:27,083
conservation is being attacked, the

754
01:25:27,083 --> 01:25:28,125
federal government is cutting

755
01:25:28,125 --> 01:25:30,541
the funding, they're cutting the staff,

756
01:25:30,541 --> 01:25:31,250
they're destroying the

757
01:25:31,291 --> 01:25:33,083
culture of some of these places, they're

758
01:25:33,083 --> 01:25:34,625
deleting databases of

759
01:25:34,625 --> 01:25:37,750
information, you know, wiping it off so

760
01:25:37,750 --> 01:25:38,375
that people can't even

761
01:25:38,416 --> 01:25:44,041
access this kind of stuff. So we have to

762
01:25:44,041 --> 01:25:44,750
work with the states

763
01:25:45,208 --> 01:25:47,500
because of Trump. Yeah, but at the same

764
01:25:47,500 --> 01:25:50,291
time, I do think a lot

765
01:25:50,291 --> 01:25:51,708
of work had already gone into thinking

766
01:25:51,708 --> 01:25:55,000
about this. And, you

767
01:25:55,000 --> 01:25:56,583
know, hopefully Trump is just a temporary

768
01:25:56,583 --> 01:25:58,208
thing, you know, three

769
01:25:58,208 --> 01:26:01,625
to four years. But but I do think we

770
01:26:01,625 --> 01:26:03,458
will, this will be a

771
01:26:03,458 --> 01:26:05,375
big part of the conversation in the

772
01:26:05,375 --> 01:26:07,625
2030s. Like how, how do we

773
01:26:07,666 --> 01:26:09,208
capture the bio biodiversity

774
01:26:09,208 --> 01:26:11,666
that is near shore, the cultures

775
01:26:11,666 --> 01:26:13,666
that have emerged and live with this

776
01:26:13,666 --> 01:26:15,125
nature near shore. And

777
01:26:15,416 --> 01:26:17,916
Lenfest did a has this thing called the

778
01:26:17,916 --> 01:26:19,166
biodiversity dialogues

779
01:26:19,166 --> 01:26:21,125
that they did with Smithsonian. And they

780
01:26:21,125 --> 01:26:22,000
published a paper last

781
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:24,208
year and found that if you look at the

782
01:26:24,208 --> 01:26:25,500
United States network of

783
01:26:25,500 --> 01:26:27,291
marine protected areas, and

784
01:26:27,291 --> 01:26:28,625
compared it to where all the

785
01:26:28,625 --> 01:26:30,458
biodiversity is, there's almost a

786
01:26:30,458 --> 01:26:33,041
complete mismatch. And you know,

787
01:26:33,041 --> 01:26:34,000
that that paper was published

788
01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:35,750
a year ago. And again, several

789
01:26:35,875 --> 01:26:37,500
years of work went into getting it to

790
01:26:37,500 --> 01:26:39,625
publication. So this is

791
01:26:39,791 --> 01:26:41,250
there's a reality that Trump is

792
01:26:41,250 --> 01:26:42,916
president. And he's like just

793
01:26:42,916 --> 01:26:44,375
undermining everything that we care

794
01:26:44,375 --> 01:26:47,000
about. At the same time, this

795
01:26:47,000 --> 01:26:48,583
work has been ongoing for many, many

796
01:26:48,583 --> 01:26:51,958
years now. And, you know, I

797
01:26:51,958 --> 01:26:53,000
think the thing that take off your

798
01:26:53,000 --> 01:26:56,125
listeners is that America is

799
01:26:56,125 --> 01:26:57,625
being forced to deal with this

800
01:26:57,625 --> 01:26:59,208
five years ahead of everybody

801
01:26:59,208 --> 01:27:02,833
else. So what lessons are we going to

802
01:27:02,833 --> 01:27:03,458
learn? And what lessons

803
01:27:03,541 --> 01:27:05,083
can we share with the rest of the world?

804
01:27:05,583 --> 01:27:08,458
Because it was forced on us, whereas the

805
01:27:08,458 --> 01:27:09,708
rest of the world is going to hopefully

806
01:27:09,708 --> 01:27:12,208
be able to deal with it more on their own

807
01:27:12,208 --> 01:27:14,291
timelines. But this is a

808
01:27:14,291 --> 01:27:16,250
thing. This is something that the

809
01:27:16,250 --> 01:27:17,541
conservation movement has been discussing

810
01:27:17,541 --> 01:27:18,583
for many, many years.

811
01:27:19,833 --> 01:27:21,750
And what we've done, and we've been on

812
01:27:21,750 --> 01:27:23,041
the phone for like 25 minutes, and we

813
01:27:23,041 --> 01:27:24,500
haven't even talked about the report yet.

814
01:27:27,500 --> 01:27:28,500
So let's go ahead and start that

815
01:27:28,500 --> 01:27:30,000
recording right now.

816
01:27:30,041 --> 01:27:35,875
This is all pretext is there's all of

817
01:27:35,875 --> 01:27:37,500
this work happening all across the

818
01:27:37,500 --> 01:27:38,208
country in the United

819
01:27:38,250 --> 01:27:41,625
States. And what we've tried to do is

820
01:27:41,625 --> 01:27:42,458
just highlight some of

821
01:27:42,458 --> 01:27:44,291
that to give people some hope.

822
01:27:44,750 --> 01:27:47,625
Yeah, because it's not over. Ocean

823
01:27:47,625 --> 01:27:49,375
conservation has not ended.

824
01:27:49,583 --> 01:27:51,166
We're still thousands of people

825
01:27:51,166 --> 01:27:53,291
out there doing great work. And here are

826
01:27:53,291 --> 01:27:54,625
some examples. And what

827
01:27:54,625 --> 01:27:55,625
can we learn from each other?

828
01:27:55,958 --> 01:27:58,125
And what can we do on what's working well

829
01:27:58,125 --> 01:27:59,208
on the West Coast? How can

830
01:27:59,208 --> 01:28:00,291
we adopt it on the East Coast

831
01:28:00,333 --> 01:28:03,208
and vice versa? And that's basically what

832
01:28:03,208 --> 01:28:04,291
we hope the crux of

833
01:28:04,291 --> 01:28:05,958
this report will contribute

834
01:28:06,666 --> 01:28:09,166
to the national conversation. Yeah. Oh,

835
01:28:09,166 --> 01:28:10,541
yeah. Like how did this all

836
01:28:10,541 --> 01:28:12,166
begin with this near shore

837
01:28:12,166 --> 01:28:13,791
focus? Like, you know, Angela mentioned,

838
01:28:13,791 --> 01:28:14,541
you guys have been

839
01:28:14,541 --> 01:28:15,708
working on this for two years.

840
01:28:16,666 --> 01:28:18,083
Where did all this, where did it all

841
01:28:18,083 --> 01:28:21,125
start from and getting into that purpose?

842
01:28:21,875 --> 01:28:25,000
Yeah, I'd say to answer that and to build

843
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:25,958
off what Angela was.

844
01:28:27,166 --> 01:28:28,875
There's so much great work already being

845
01:28:28,875 --> 01:28:30,166
done at the state and local level that

846
01:28:30,166 --> 01:28:31,208
doesn't rise to the

847
01:28:31,208 --> 01:28:32,625
same level attention as

848
01:28:32,625 --> 01:28:35,375
some of the federal sort of large and

849
01:28:35,375 --> 01:28:37,833
more glamorous conservation actions. And

850
01:28:37,833 --> 01:28:39,000
we thought that that was

851
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:42,125
a challenge one because we don't want to

852
01:28:42,125 --> 01:28:43,625
reinvent the wheel. We want to learn from

853
01:28:43,625 --> 01:28:44,791
these successes that are being

854
01:28:44,791 --> 01:28:46,000
happening at a smaller level.

855
01:28:47,041 --> 01:28:48,625
And I think there's a lot of important

856
01:28:48,625 --> 01:28:49,791
lessons that can be learned

857
01:28:49,791 --> 01:28:51,541
from there. So I think that

858
01:28:52,083 --> 01:28:54,625
the desire to one, not reinvent the wheel

859
01:28:54,625 --> 01:28:56,291
and to take those lessons

860
01:28:56,291 --> 01:28:57,250
and try and replicate them

861
01:28:57,250 --> 01:28:58,250
on a larger scale and figure out how we

862
01:28:58,250 --> 01:29:00,750
can better support states and local

863
01:29:00,750 --> 01:29:03,333
organizations in this really great

864
01:29:03,333 --> 01:29:04,958
conservation work that they're doing

865
01:29:05,291 --> 01:29:07,791
was the motivating factor. And at the

866
01:29:07,791 --> 01:29:11,041
same time, recognizing that a lot of this

867
01:29:11,041 --> 01:29:13,125
work is paving the way for

868
01:29:13,791 --> 01:29:17,958
how we can build on top of 30 by 30. So

869
01:29:17,958 --> 01:29:20,375
like we discussed earlier, there are

870
01:29:20,375 --> 01:29:23,458
blind 30 by 30 does a lot of things well.

871
01:29:23,458 --> 01:29:25,208
It does have some blind spots and a lot

872
01:29:25,208 --> 01:29:27,083
of those blind spots are in the near

873
01:29:27,083 --> 01:29:28,375
short areas that are

874
01:29:28,375 --> 01:29:29,666
within state jurisdictions.

875
01:29:30,250 --> 01:29:32,166
So I think as Angelo said, even if Trump

876
01:29:32,166 --> 01:29:35,791
was not elected president, those waters

877
01:29:35,791 --> 01:29:37,666
are still within the control of states.

878
01:29:37,791 --> 01:29:39,000
And you have to work with them and have

879
01:29:39,000 --> 01:29:41,791
to understand how things are working at a

880
01:29:41,791 --> 01:29:44,500
much smaller level in order to be able to

881
01:29:44,500 --> 01:29:45,291
functionally do

882
01:29:45,291 --> 01:29:46,458
conservation at that scale.

883
01:29:47,250 --> 01:29:48,541
So I think we always knew that that was

884
01:29:48,541 --> 01:29:50,500
the direction that we had to head in. I

885
01:29:50,500 --> 01:29:52,791
think the presidency really

886
01:29:52,791 --> 01:29:55,083
just put some of that into focus.

887
01:29:55,666 --> 01:29:57,583
And I was trying to focus like prep for

888
01:29:57,583 --> 01:29:59,000
this answer. I was Angelo was talking,

889
01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:00,083
but also like getting mad.

890
01:30:00,125 --> 01:30:03,000
I started going into the judge cuts and

891
01:30:03,000 --> 01:30:05,041
all this because there's a real human

892
01:30:05,041 --> 01:30:08,000
impact of a lot of this. And as we were

893
01:30:08,000 --> 01:30:09,250
saying, hey, these states are doing great

894
01:30:09,250 --> 01:30:10,708
things and they can continue to do

895
01:30:10,708 --> 01:30:14,041
leadership in a time when there isn't a

896
01:30:14,041 --> 01:30:15,583
lot of federal leadership this level.

897
01:30:15,625 --> 01:30:22,125
And so many of these projects rely on

898
01:30:22,125 --> 01:30:24,666
federal funding. They rely on support

899
01:30:24,666 --> 01:30:27,291
from NOAA staff who are now getting cut.

900
01:30:28,291 --> 01:30:30,666
And as well as at the same time as we can

901
01:30:30,666 --> 01:30:32,375
point to this as a place for hope and a

902
01:30:32,375 --> 01:30:34,208
place where leadership can still happen.

903
01:30:34,958 --> 01:30:37,083
I think it's also important to step back

904
01:30:37,083 --> 01:30:38,625
and see that even when you're looking at

905
01:30:38,625 --> 01:30:41,916
the state level, it's hard to avoid some

906
01:30:41,916 --> 01:30:43,541
of these federal impacts.

907
01:30:45,166 --> 01:30:45,333
And so I think it's important for the state to be able to be able to get a sense of this. And
so I think it's important for the state to be able to be able to get a sense of this.

908
01:30:45,333 --> 01:30:46,083
And I think that that's something that we really ripple

909
01:30:46,083 --> 01:30:47,708
throughout this entire ecosystem.

910
01:30:47,708 --> 01:30:50,416
For sure. Absolutely. It's something

911
01:30:50,416 --> 01:30:53,166
that, you know, obviously has to get

912
01:30:53,166 --> 01:30:55,875
addressed. But to keep up with that hope

913
01:30:55,875 --> 01:30:58,958
of, you know, seeing areas conserved in

914
01:30:58,958 --> 01:31:02,000
the nearshore, how is it different from

915
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:05,666
the area based conservation targets that

916
01:31:05,666 --> 01:31:07,541
we looked at with the 30 by 30?

917
01:31:14,500 --> 01:31:17,291
Is there just no number? It's just, you

918
01:31:17,291 --> 01:31:19,208
know, whatever that local community wants

919
01:31:19,208 --> 01:31:20,833
to protect as what they define

920
01:31:20,833 --> 01:31:22,791
as what is important to them?

921
01:31:24,333 --> 01:31:25,916
Yeah, I think the interesting thing is

922
01:31:25,916 --> 01:31:29,625
that when you move near shore, you run

923
01:31:29,625 --> 01:31:31,541
into a whole different set of challenges,

924
01:31:31,541 --> 01:31:33,083
right? Instead of looking at certain

925
01:31:33,083 --> 01:31:36,750
these project remote areas, you're

926
01:31:36,750 --> 01:31:38,500
looking at, for example, we talked about

927
01:31:38,500 --> 01:31:39,875
the Chesapeake Bay in our report, which

928
01:31:39,875 --> 01:31:40,875
is 18 million people

929
01:31:40,875 --> 01:31:43,291
living in a much smaller area.

930
01:31:43,291 --> 01:31:45,166
And so you have to contend with the

931
01:31:45,166 --> 01:31:46,916
political context, the social context,

932
01:31:46,916 --> 01:31:48,375
and a lot of those impacts. So a lot of

933
01:31:48,375 --> 01:31:51,250
the strategy that works for larger, sort

934
01:31:51,250 --> 01:31:53,083
of more plastic areas won't

935
01:31:53,083 --> 01:31:54,791
work when you move in nearshore.

936
01:31:55,166 --> 01:31:57,166
So you have this sort of challenge, but

937
01:31:57,166 --> 01:31:59,333
also a new opportunity to think of new

938
01:31:59,333 --> 01:32:02,500
metrics outside of acreage alone. So

939
01:32:02,500 --> 01:32:04,000
that's we've highlighted a couple of

940
01:32:04,000 --> 01:32:05,125
different things are a lot of different

941
01:32:05,125 --> 01:32:05,875
things in this report.

942
01:32:05,916 --> 01:32:09,041
But that looks like water quality

943
01:32:09,041 --> 01:32:15,083
measures, looks like individual, let's

944
01:32:15,083 --> 01:32:18,166
say, looking at the amount of certain

945
01:32:18,166 --> 01:32:20,666
habitat forming species like oysters or

946
01:32:20,666 --> 01:32:23,500
seagrass, really trying to get more

947
01:32:23,500 --> 01:32:25,375
creative with the metrics that we use.

948
01:32:25,375 --> 01:32:27,166
And part of that will be community input.

949
01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:32,958
So for example, how much of the simple,

950
01:32:33,333 --> 01:32:36,125
if we restore this seagrass meadow or the

951
01:32:36,125 --> 01:32:38,541
seagrass bed, how does that impact the

952
01:32:38,541 --> 01:32:41,541
production of crabs or fish that can then

953
01:32:41,541 --> 01:32:43,625
go be caught by fishermen and sold off

954
01:32:43,625 --> 01:32:44,791
and support local economies?

955
01:32:45,333 --> 01:32:47,208
So there's definitely an interplay

956
01:32:47,208 --> 01:32:50,083
between coastal conservation and local

957
01:32:50,083 --> 01:32:52,166
communities. And I think the metrics will

958
01:32:52,166 --> 01:32:54,208
have to shift in order to sort of

959
01:32:54,208 --> 01:32:56,125
incorporate a larger set of benefits.

960
01:32:56,916 --> 01:32:58,000
I think what's great too, when you're

961
01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:01,000
looking at nearshore and a community

962
01:33:01,000 --> 01:33:02,375
that's been there for a long time

963
01:33:02,375 --> 01:33:04,041
compared to offshore is offshore, you may

964
01:33:04,041 --> 01:33:05,208
not have the history of what it looked

965
01:33:05,208 --> 01:33:06,708
like before you started to conserve it.

966
01:33:06,708 --> 01:33:08,416
You might have a little bit from say

967
01:33:08,416 --> 01:33:10,625
users that were using it, whether it be

968
01:33:10,625 --> 01:33:12,666
fishing or oil and gas or whatever.

969
01:33:13,208 --> 01:33:14,416
But near here, you have a coastal

970
01:33:14,416 --> 01:33:15,750
community that's probably been there for

971
01:33:15,750 --> 01:33:19,083
centuries, if more, knowing what was

972
01:33:19,083 --> 01:33:21,166
there before, why it disappeared.

973
01:33:21,875 --> 01:33:23,833
And so you know the benefits of having

974
01:33:23,833 --> 01:33:26,041
that seagrass meadow, that kelp forest or

975
01:33:26,041 --> 01:33:29,000
that oyster bed and knowing that, hey,

976
01:33:29,166 --> 01:33:31,625
there could be those stories are still

977
01:33:31,625 --> 01:33:33,541
around and people know that history.

978
01:33:34,041 --> 01:33:36,125
There's a reason to put this back, not

979
01:33:36,125 --> 01:33:38,500
only from an ecological perspective, but

980
01:33:38,500 --> 01:33:41,041
also from a cultural perspective. But

981
01:33:41,041 --> 01:33:42,750
when you have that, when you have people

982
01:33:42,750 --> 01:33:44,833
in there, there tends to be a little bit

983
01:33:44,833 --> 01:33:46,000
more conflict in terms of

984
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:47,583
how things should be done.

985
01:33:47,625 --> 01:33:51,541
So how with some of the examples that

986
01:33:51,541 --> 01:33:53,750
they've talked that that the report

987
01:33:53,750 --> 01:33:56,250
talked about, there's the Hawaii's and

988
01:33:56,250 --> 01:33:57,291
I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing this,

989
01:33:57,291 --> 01:33:59,708
Halamua Marine Initiative and there's

990
01:33:59,708 --> 01:34:01,458
Florida Track Rescue Project,

991
01:34:01,958 --> 01:34:03,291
Guam Green Growth Initiative.

992
01:34:03,291 --> 01:34:05,708
Is there a lot when it comes to near

993
01:34:05,708 --> 01:34:08,791
shore where more people are active and

994
01:34:08,791 --> 01:34:10,958
responding to it? Is there a lot more

995
01:34:10,958 --> 01:34:13,416
conflict at the beginning of this process

996
01:34:13,416 --> 01:34:14,833
when you bring all the stakeholders

997
01:34:14,833 --> 01:34:17,541
together or did that happen with some of

998
01:34:17,541 --> 01:34:18,833
these projects? Maybe just highlighting

999
01:34:18,833 --> 01:34:21,083
one or two, if you know more of that.

1000
01:34:21,791 --> 01:34:23,625
I mean, I guess like the big question is

1001
01:34:23,625 --> 01:34:25,708
like we're asking the conservation

1002
01:34:25,708 --> 01:34:26,875
community to ask

1003
01:34:26,875 --> 01:34:28,333
themselves two questions.

1004
01:34:29,458 --> 01:34:31,333
The first question is, what do you mean

1005
01:34:31,333 --> 01:34:34,000
by conservation success? And Ali, I

1006
01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:35,500
brought up this idea of like just

1007
01:34:35,500 --> 01:34:38,083
different metrics and for a long time,

1008
01:34:38,083 --> 01:34:39,666
success meant is it big?

1009
01:34:41,083 --> 01:34:42,708
And I was a funder for a couple of years.

1010
01:34:43,208 --> 01:34:45,083
And one of the most important metrics was

1011
01:34:45,083 --> 01:34:48,333
is it big? And given the opportunity

1012
01:34:48,333 --> 01:34:50,500
between funding something that was big

1013
01:34:50,500 --> 01:34:52,791
and meaningless, meaning like there were

1014
01:34:52,791 --> 01:34:56,875
no protections or tiny, but amazing.

1015
01:34:57,666 --> 01:35:00,416
Most of the funders would pick big and

1016
01:35:00,416 --> 01:35:04,791
meaningless. I have real world experience

1017
01:35:04,791 --> 01:35:06,916
with that. The second question that we're

1018
01:35:06,916 --> 01:35:08,041
asking them to reexamine

1019
01:35:08,041 --> 01:35:10,333
is, who is this success for?

1020
01:35:12,791 --> 01:35:15,208
Right. So I was on a I was on a paper

1021
01:35:15,208 --> 01:35:17,875
with Beth Pike last year. We looked at

1022
01:35:17,875 --> 01:35:19,208
the hundred largest marine protected

1023
01:35:19,208 --> 01:35:20,125
areas around the world.

1024
01:35:20,791 --> 01:35:22,500
And two thirds of the highly to fully

1025
01:35:22,500 --> 01:35:24,291
marine protected areas are in overseas

1026
01:35:24,291 --> 01:35:27,208
territories and un-polite company. We

1027
01:35:27,208 --> 01:35:28,125
call these colonies.

1028
01:35:29,333 --> 01:35:31,250
And so most of the progress towards 30 by

1029
01:35:31,250 --> 01:35:33,750
30 has been in these colonies where the

1030
01:35:33,750 --> 01:35:36,375
people are disenfranchised, but not

1031
01:35:36,375 --> 01:35:38,000
disenfranchised, meaning like you're left

1032
01:35:38,000 --> 01:35:39,583
out disenfranchised,

1033
01:35:39,583 --> 01:35:40,291
meaning you don't vote.

1034
01:35:41,291 --> 01:35:42,791
You don't have a vote on this. You don't

1035
01:35:42,791 --> 01:35:44,458
vote for your president. You don't vote

1036
01:35:44,458 --> 01:35:46,041
for the people who represent you in the

1037
01:35:46,041 --> 01:35:48,250
national government. And most of the

1038
01:35:48,250 --> 01:35:50,625
protected areas around the world, the big

1039
01:35:50,625 --> 01:35:54,250
ones that contribute to the coverage, for

1040
01:35:54,250 --> 01:35:56,416
the most part, have benefited the people

1041
01:35:56,416 --> 01:35:58,500
in the capitals who asked for these

1042
01:35:58,500 --> 01:36:00,458
things, the people who fly to

1043
01:36:00,458 --> 01:36:03,583
international conferences to gloat about

1044
01:36:03,583 --> 01:36:04,916
some of these big changes.

1045
01:36:16,291 --> 01:36:17,000
And so I think that's a really great

1046
01:36:17,000 --> 01:36:18,750
question. And I think that's a really

1047
01:36:18,750 --> 01:36:19,250
great question. And I think that's a

1048
01:36:19,250 --> 01:36:19,791
really great question.

1049
01:36:20,291 --> 01:36:23,375
And I think a number of people going back

1050
01:36:23,375 --> 01:36:25,583
more than 10 years have asked the

1051
01:36:25,583 --> 01:36:29,291
question, is that ethical? And then you

1052
01:36:29,291 --> 01:36:30,541
point out, do we even know what's

1053
01:36:30,541 --> 01:36:32,083
happening offshore? In a

1054
01:36:32,083 --> 01:36:33,166
certain degree, we kind of do.

1055
01:36:34,166 --> 01:36:36,208
The University of British Columbia has

1056
01:36:36,208 --> 01:36:38,666
the Sea Around Us project where they have

1057
01:36:38,666 --> 01:36:40,583
most of the fishing capture data from the

1058
01:36:40,583 --> 01:36:43,875
last 60 or 70 years. So we actually know

1059
01:36:46,500 --> 01:36:48,000
what type of fishing was taking place in

1060
01:36:48,000 --> 01:36:50,041
most places around the world. And oh my

1061
01:36:50,041 --> 01:36:51,000
gosh, I'm going to blank on this

1062
01:36:51,000 --> 01:36:55,000
scientist's name. Veronica something, but

1063
01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:57,875
she was at UBC under Daniel Polly. And

1064
01:36:57,875 --> 01:37:00,458
she compared some of the fisheries data

1065
01:37:01,291 --> 01:37:04,375
to when the EZs, the exclusive economic

1066
01:37:04,375 --> 01:37:06,666
zones were designated versus to when the

1067
01:37:06,666 --> 01:37:08,541
marine protected areas were designated.

1068
01:37:09,500 --> 01:37:11,458
And actually for a lot of these overseas

1069
01:37:11,458 --> 01:37:15,666
territories in the 1980s and 1990s,

1070
01:37:15,666 --> 01:37:17,833
international waters

1071
01:37:17,833 --> 01:37:18,833
started at three miles.

1072
01:37:20,291 --> 01:37:22,791
Right. So like around Guam, international

1073
01:37:22,791 --> 01:37:24,875
waters started at three miles. And then

1074
01:37:24,875 --> 01:37:27,666
when Ronald Reagan declared the EZ, it

1075
01:37:27,666 --> 01:37:29,000
went out to 200 miles, which you can't

1076
01:37:29,000 --> 01:37:30,708
even see the screen isn't that big.

1077
01:37:31,375 --> 01:37:33,666
But there used to be lots of Japanese

1078
01:37:33,666 --> 01:37:35,958
squid fishing happening in the Marianas.

1079
01:37:36,416 --> 01:37:39,083
But when the US claimed that waters, all

1080
01:37:39,083 --> 01:37:40,333
of the fishing was pushed out.

1081
01:37:41,333 --> 01:37:44,291
And so and then 10, 20, 30 years later,

1082
01:37:44,791 --> 01:37:46,916
when France had done the same thing in

1083
01:37:46,916 --> 01:37:48,875
England and New Zealand and Mexico had

1084
01:37:48,875 --> 01:37:50,833
done the same thing, these politicians

1085
01:37:50,833 --> 01:37:52,250
came along and said, oh,

1086
01:37:52,625 --> 01:37:54,041
here's an area with no fishing.

1087
01:37:54,500 --> 01:37:55,750
This is a place that's good for a

1088
01:37:55,750 --> 01:37:58,000
protected area. Now, in the United

1089
01:37:58,000 --> 01:37:59,708
States, this actually models the same

1090
01:37:59,708 --> 01:38:03,208
story on land. In the 1920s, President

1091
01:38:03,208 --> 01:38:06,500
Jackson forced all of the native people

1092
01:38:06,500 --> 01:38:07,708
living on the east coast of the United

1093
01:38:07,708 --> 01:38:08,958
States to move to Oklahoma.

1094
01:38:09,708 --> 01:38:13,833
And that's the lots of American lands

1095
01:38:13,833 --> 01:38:18,041
were deep people were forcibly removed in

1096
01:38:18,041 --> 01:38:21,125
the 1820s. But then by the time John Muir

1097
01:38:21,125 --> 01:38:25,583
came around in the 1870s and 1890s, these

1098
01:38:25,583 --> 01:38:26,333
places were wilderness.

1099
01:38:27,500 --> 01:38:30,000
Right. Nobody lives there. It's empty.

1100
01:38:31,041 --> 01:38:32,166
And that's how we got most of our

1101
01:38:32,166 --> 01:38:35,750
national parks is that these places where

1102
01:38:35,750 --> 01:38:37,833
nobody lived, something got protected.

1103
01:38:38,333 --> 01:38:40,958
But the reality is is that something

1104
01:38:40,958 --> 01:38:43,291
earlier had happened to

1105
01:38:43,291 --> 01:38:46,083
force out the human connection.

1106
01:38:46,541 --> 01:38:48,875
And, you know, there just aren't going to

1107
01:38:48,875 --> 01:38:50,750
be there aren't many places in the world

1108
01:38:50,750 --> 01:38:53,541
where you can create large land protected

1109
01:38:53,541 --> 01:38:55,875
areas because people live there now and

1110
01:38:55,875 --> 01:38:57,833
you would never think about for you.

1111
01:38:57,833 --> 01:38:59,458
I mean, some people do think about it.

1112
01:39:00,291 --> 01:39:02,666
But, you know, it's considered unethical

1113
01:39:02,666 --> 01:39:06,041
to do that. Yeah. And on the water, you

1114
01:39:06,041 --> 01:39:07,958
know, a lot of people don't know that the

1115
01:39:07,958 --> 01:39:09,416
UN Convention of the Law of

1116
01:39:09,416 --> 01:39:11,041
the Sea was ratified in 1994.

1117
01:39:13,125 --> 01:39:15,583
I was in high school in 1994. But a lot

1118
01:39:15,583 --> 01:39:17,041
of the people I work with were not alive

1119
01:39:17,041 --> 01:39:19,125
in 1994. So, you know, they just kind of

1120
01:39:19,125 --> 01:39:20,875
assume that it may be

1121
01:39:20,875 --> 01:39:22,000
somebody on this call.

1122
01:39:23,333 --> 01:39:27,166
Call me out, Angela. It's an assumption

1123
01:39:27,166 --> 01:39:29,250
that the ocean has always kind of been

1124
01:39:29,250 --> 01:39:30,791
managed like this. But the

1125
01:39:30,791 --> 01:39:32,625
point of it is that it wasn't.

1126
01:39:33,333 --> 01:39:36,000
And, you know, other older cultures and

1127
01:39:36,000 --> 01:39:38,500
again, you and I, American Canadian, we

1128
01:39:38,500 --> 01:39:40,541
have a very American Canadian worldview,

1129
01:39:41,666 --> 01:39:45,333
other cultures like France and Japan that

1130
01:39:45,333 --> 01:39:47,416
have lived in landscapes for a lot longer

1131
01:39:47,416 --> 01:39:49,833
have a very different relationship with

1132
01:39:49,833 --> 01:39:51,583
nature when it comes to

1133
01:39:51,583 --> 01:39:53,291
nature where people are.

1134
01:39:53,333 --> 01:39:55,000
Right. You have a French countryside,

1135
01:39:55,333 --> 01:39:59,041
which protects nature to a certain degree

1136
01:39:59,041 --> 01:40:01,958
in a certain way. You have the Japanese

1137
01:40:01,958 --> 01:40:04,041
park like Ken Rokowen is

1138
01:40:04,041 --> 01:40:05,375
the great Japanese park.

1139
01:40:05,750 --> 01:40:08,125
If you know anything about that.

1140
01:40:09,750 --> 01:40:10,916
And, you know, America is a young

1141
01:40:10,916 --> 01:40:12,291
country. We're still kind of figuring

1142
01:40:12,291 --> 01:40:13,375
some of these things out.

1143
01:40:14,375 --> 01:40:16,458
And, you know, just as we've learned the

1144
01:40:16,458 --> 01:40:19,041
importance of green spaces in cities,

1145
01:40:20,500 --> 01:40:22,375
this is a report we're saying blue spaces

1146
01:40:22,375 --> 01:40:25,250
on coastal areas are

1147
01:40:25,250 --> 01:40:26,708
also critically important.

1148
01:40:27,708 --> 01:40:30,666
And, you know, just as we had a period of

1149
01:40:30,666 --> 01:40:32,166
time where we created these large

1150
01:40:32,166 --> 01:40:35,250
protected areas on land, it just, you

1151
01:40:35,250 --> 01:40:36,833
know, logically, it makes sense that

1152
01:40:36,833 --> 01:40:38,500
there would be a period of time where we

1153
01:40:38,500 --> 01:40:40,458
created these large spaces on the water.

1154
01:40:41,291 --> 01:40:44,500
And for many years, I've postulated that

1155
01:40:44,500 --> 01:40:46,166
that moment is coming to an end.

1156
01:40:47,291 --> 01:40:48,958
We've run out of colonies to protect.

1157
01:40:50,041 --> 01:40:50,875
They're all protected.

1158
01:40:52,291 --> 01:40:54,916
So now we need to work on blue spaces,

1159
01:40:55,208 --> 01:40:56,750
blue spaces in coastal areas.

1160
01:40:58,208 --> 01:41:01,000
How much more talent? I would love to

1161
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:02,750
jump in on that. I think Angela did a

1162
01:41:02,750 --> 01:41:04,500
really good job of laying out what sort

1163
01:41:04,500 --> 01:41:07,000
of the status quo was or the history of

1164
01:41:07,000 --> 01:41:08,083
this very top down

1165
01:41:08,083 --> 01:41:09,083
approach to conservation.

1166
01:41:10,291 --> 01:41:11,708
So to flip it, one thing that we're

1167
01:41:11,708 --> 01:41:13,333
really excited is the fact that moving

1168
01:41:13,333 --> 01:41:15,041
your shore, it has to

1169
01:41:15,041 --> 01:41:16,833
necessarily be bottom up.

1170
01:41:17,333 --> 01:41:19,541
We talked to, I think, over 50, or we

1171
01:41:19,541 --> 01:41:23,416
conducted 50, sorry, we collected 50

1172
01:41:23,416 --> 01:41:25,875
survey responses or interviews in the

1173
01:41:25,875 --> 01:41:27,041
process of making this report.

1174
01:41:27,958 --> 01:41:29,916
And one thing that sort of a repeated

1175
01:41:29,916 --> 01:41:32,500
theme throughout is that these projects

1176
01:41:32,500 --> 01:41:33,541
are successful because they

1177
01:41:33,541 --> 01:41:34,791
have buy in from the community.

1178
01:41:35,625 --> 01:41:37,500
And there's no way to be successful if

1179
01:41:37,500 --> 01:41:38,291
you don't have that.

1180
01:41:39,333 --> 01:41:41,041
One, because that's what you're asking

1181
01:41:41,041 --> 01:41:42,375
people to participate in the community

1182
01:41:42,375 --> 01:41:44,000
and change their behavior, but also

1183
01:41:44,000 --> 01:41:45,625
because people in the community know

1184
01:41:45,625 --> 01:41:47,375
those ecosystems the best, as you said,

1185
01:41:48,291 --> 01:41:48,916
they're because they're

1186
01:41:48,916 --> 01:41:50,416
near it and experiencing it.

1187
01:41:50,416 --> 01:41:51,583
They have a better sense of what will

1188
01:41:51,583 --> 01:41:52,666
work and what won't.

1189
01:41:54,333 --> 01:41:56,833
So I think that's one of the cool things

1190
01:41:56,833 --> 01:41:59,416
that it's very democratic. And one of the

1191
01:41:59,416 --> 01:42:01,291
things that gave me hope in doing this

1192
01:42:01,291 --> 01:42:05,041
report is that even red states, blue

1193
01:42:05,041 --> 01:42:07,250
states, when you're working at a more

1194
01:42:07,250 --> 01:42:09,083
local level and people can experience,

1195
01:42:09,083 --> 01:42:10,833
hey, if we preserve this ecosystem,

1196
01:42:11,291 --> 01:42:14,708
this means a better catch for me or

1197
01:42:14,708 --> 01:42:17,458
better tourism or I can enjoy the speech

1198
01:42:17,458 --> 01:42:20,333
better. It's very personal to people and

1199
01:42:20,333 --> 01:42:21,291
they're more willing to

1200
01:42:21,291 --> 01:42:22,500
engage in those major changes.

1201
01:42:23,333 --> 01:42:25,541
So I think in addition to what you said

1202
01:42:25,541 --> 01:42:27,208
about people can see sort of the

1203
01:42:27,208 --> 01:42:28,500
historical record about what that habitat

1204
01:42:28,500 --> 01:42:31,000
used to be. They know why it's important

1205
01:42:31,000 --> 01:42:32,666
and that gives them like a personal stake

1206
01:42:32,666 --> 01:42:34,125
about why they should be invested.

1207
01:42:35,708 --> 01:42:36,208
So in.

1208
01:42:38,291 --> 01:42:40,208
So I think rather than this really top

1209
01:42:40,208 --> 01:42:42,208
down like coming from as Angela said the

1210
01:42:42,208 --> 01:42:43,916
capital is people say, hey, we're going

1211
01:42:43,916 --> 01:42:44,916
to draw this line and this is our new

1212
01:42:44,916 --> 01:42:46,708
protected area, stay out of it.

1213
01:42:47,291 --> 01:42:50,958
This is a strategy that says, hey, we

1214
01:42:50,958 --> 01:42:52,416
understand that you live here and have

1215
01:42:52,416 --> 01:42:53,875
lived here for a long time of experience

1216
01:42:53,875 --> 01:42:55,958
this ecosystem and its benefits to you.

1217
01:42:56,416 --> 01:42:59,000
How can we build on that knowledge in

1218
01:42:59,000 --> 01:43:01,458
order to create a conservation strategy

1219
01:43:01,458 --> 01:43:04,416
that works better. And that's definitely

1220
01:43:04,416 --> 01:43:06,875
hard because it's going to change a lot

1221
01:43:06,875 --> 01:43:08,291
between different ecosystems.

1222
01:43:08,291 --> 01:43:10,500
If you move between different towns or

1223
01:43:10,500 --> 01:43:12,375
cities or states, it's all going to look

1224
01:43:12,375 --> 01:43:13,000
a little bit different.

1225
01:43:13,500 --> 01:43:16,458
But I think one thing that we really try

1226
01:43:16,458 --> 01:43:18,166
to stress is that you really need to look

1227
01:43:18,166 --> 01:43:20,000
towards those local leaders in order to

1228
01:43:20,000 --> 01:43:21,625
have any chance of success there.

1229
01:43:21,958 --> 01:43:24,041
When do you find to as you get sort of

1230
01:43:24,041 --> 01:43:25,083
lower more to that

1231
01:43:25,083 --> 01:43:26,833
local level, you get less.

1232
01:43:27,791 --> 01:43:29,666
You get more into who really loves the

1233
01:43:29,666 --> 01:43:31,041
environment who really wants stands up

1234
01:43:31,041 --> 01:43:32,083
for their environment and

1235
01:43:32,083 --> 01:43:33,291
less of that political divide.

1236
01:43:33,291 --> 01:43:36,750
You start to strip the parties down a

1237
01:43:36,750 --> 01:43:39,375
little bit into just like I like I live

1238
01:43:39,375 --> 01:43:41,708
20 minutes a walk from from

1239
01:43:41,708 --> 01:43:43,333
my lakefront like Lake Ontario.

1240
01:43:43,916 --> 01:43:45,791
I love going down by the lake.

1241
01:43:45,791 --> 01:43:47,458
That's something that I would love to

1242
01:43:47,458 --> 01:43:49,083
make sure that that's protected and

1243
01:43:49,083 --> 01:43:49,916
that's that the water

1244
01:43:49,916 --> 01:43:51,083
quality stays nicely.

1245
01:43:51,625 --> 01:43:53,416
There's and it's less more of a political

1246
01:43:53,416 --> 01:43:55,250
situation that you would get at the

1247
01:43:55,250 --> 01:43:57,708
federal level and more of a I really want

1248
01:43:57,708 --> 01:43:58,500
to preserve this place

1249
01:43:58,500 --> 01:43:59,291
because it's near and dear to me.

1250
01:43:59,291 --> 01:44:02,333
I see it every day. Whereas I

1251
01:44:02,333 --> 01:44:03,500
may not see something offshore.

1252
01:44:03,750 --> 01:44:05,583
So it's just a little bit more you get

1253
01:44:05,583 --> 01:44:07,125
you get really down into people's

1254
01:44:07,125 --> 01:44:08,833
personal choices in terms of what they

1255
01:44:08,833 --> 01:44:10,500
want to protect and what they love to see

1256
01:44:10,500 --> 01:44:12,041
if they live along coastline.

1257
01:44:12,333 --> 01:44:12,708
They're going to want

1258
01:44:12,708 --> 01:44:13,708
to go by the coastline.

1259
01:44:13,916 --> 01:44:15,333
There's always a waterfront of some sort

1260
01:44:15,333 --> 01:44:16,875
and they want to protect that area so

1261
01:44:16,875 --> 01:44:18,125
that they get to enjoy it and their kids

1262
01:44:18,125 --> 01:44:19,166
get to enjoy it as well.

1263
01:44:19,541 --> 01:44:20,083
Right. Angel, it looks

1264
01:44:20,083 --> 01:44:21,000
like you have something to.

1265
01:44:21,541 --> 01:44:24,666
Yes. But you don't want to be too

1266
01:44:24,666 --> 01:44:25,291
idealistic about all of this.

1267
01:44:26,291 --> 01:44:28,375
There's always there's always that guy

1268
01:44:28,375 --> 01:44:30,000
who sees the beautiful state park.

1269
01:44:30,000 --> 01:44:31,458
It's like that'd be a great place to put

1270
01:44:31,458 --> 01:44:33,958
my house. Yeah. True. True.

1271
01:44:33,958 --> 01:44:37,166
So yeah, I think all politics are local

1272
01:44:37,166 --> 01:44:40,958
and talking about these things.

1273
01:44:41,625 --> 01:44:43,416
People are invested in some of these near

1274
01:44:43,416 --> 01:44:45,041
short places like it's as you said, it's

1275
01:44:45,041 --> 01:44:46,000
their backyard or home.

1276
01:44:47,500 --> 01:44:48,333
But yeah, I don't want to be too

1277
01:44:48,333 --> 01:44:49,875
idealistic about how

1278
01:44:49,875 --> 01:44:50,291
difficult or how easy this is.

1279
01:44:50,291 --> 01:44:54,166
You know, if if governments listen to

1280
01:44:54,166 --> 01:44:55,958
science, none of us would have jobs.

1281
01:44:56,750 --> 01:44:59,125
We have to we have to force governments

1282
01:44:59,125 --> 01:45:00,416
to listen to science.

1283
01:45:01,166 --> 01:45:02,750
That's never been truer than today.

1284
01:45:04,291 --> 01:45:07,500
Well, and with near short conservation to

1285
01:45:07,500 --> 01:45:08,958
get people to speak up

1286
01:45:08,958 --> 01:45:10,583
about a specific item.

1287
01:45:11,791 --> 01:45:13,666
Is it like is so I guess I'm sorry.

1288
01:45:13,666 --> 01:45:14,916
It's taking a step back just

1289
01:45:14,916 --> 01:45:15,291
for near short conservation.

1290
01:45:15,291 --> 01:45:21,875
Is it better to. Like is it better to other

1291
01:45:21,875 --> 01:45:23,666
frameworks involved in this?

1292
01:45:23,666 --> 01:45:26,125
Is there like a national framework that

1293
01:45:26,125 --> 01:45:28,791
that can be put in like on the west coast

1294
01:45:28,791 --> 01:45:30,875
of say the US or the east coast of the US

1295
01:45:30,875 --> 01:45:33,458
or Alaska or Hawaii?

1296
01:45:34,083 --> 01:45:36,083
Is there a general framework that's

1297
01:45:36,083 --> 01:45:38,291
followed or is it very much piecemeal to everybody's trying to figure out their own way of doing near short conservation?

1298
01:45:39,291 --> 01:45:46,208
Who wants to answer that?

1299
01:45:46,875 --> 01:45:47,833
Oh, yeah, maybe I can

1300
01:45:47,833 --> 01:45:49,583
I can give it a stab.

1301
01:45:49,583 --> 01:45:52,916
I think as Angela mentioned, we highlight

1302
01:45:52,916 --> 01:45:54,750
a ton of different examples of good

1303
01:45:54,750 --> 01:45:56,500
policy across six

1304
01:45:56,500 --> 01:45:58,083
different habitats across the US.

1305
01:45:59,000 --> 01:45:59,958
And I'd say it is

1306
01:45:59,958 --> 01:46:01,625
definitely more piecemeal.

1307
01:46:01,625 --> 01:46:03,083
It varies based on habitat.

1308
01:46:03,083 --> 01:46:04,291
Every say is doing this one thing.

1309
01:46:04,291 --> 01:46:13,833
There is some really cool regional efforts where we have a lot of different types of habitats. And I think that's one of the challenges

1310
01:46:13,833 --> 01:46:15,125
is when you're working on a local level

1311
01:46:15,125 --> 01:46:19,416
and focusing on these really hyper local

1312
01:46:19,416 --> 01:46:20,875
issues, how do you make sure that you

1313
01:46:20,875 --> 01:46:22,291
still have a sense of the larger picture that people are working together and coordinating at the same time?

1314
01:46:33,541 --> 01:46:36,125
And all of that.

1315
01:46:37,958 --> 01:46:40,791
As far as regulations go to every state

1316
01:46:40,791 --> 01:46:42,916
does something different when it comes to

1317
01:46:42,916 --> 01:46:44,250
each of these habitats and that can be

1318
01:46:44,250 --> 01:46:45,291
challenging to understand.

1319
01:46:45,291 --> 01:46:55,666
I think just for us, honestly, just to go through and understand the landscape of what exists out there because it can vary a lot between the state and the state. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of

1320
01:46:55,666 --> 01:46:57,083
opportunity to coordinate

1321
01:46:57,083 --> 01:46:58,541
between these different groups.

1322
01:46:59,083 --> 01:47:00,875
And honestly, this is where having some

1323
01:47:00,875 --> 01:47:02,708
sort of federal overarching structure

1324
01:47:02,708 --> 01:47:05,458
would be really helpful to help make sure

1325
01:47:05,458 --> 01:47:06,291
that everyone's on the same page and can learn from each other.

1326
01:47:06,333 --> 01:47:09,416
That's why some of these these federal

1327
01:47:09,416 --> 01:47:13,708
interventions can seem so exciting for

1328
01:47:13,708 --> 01:47:16,125
funders, though, because they love to say

1329
01:47:16,125 --> 01:47:18,000
the word scalable and

1330
01:47:18,000 --> 01:47:20,333
scalable and for coast.

1331
01:47:21,666 --> 01:47:23,083
None of this is scalable.

1332
01:47:23,375 --> 01:47:25,000
Like just because something works, you

1333
01:47:25,000 --> 01:47:26,458
know, you pass a law in Florida and it

1334
01:47:26,458 --> 01:47:27,833
works great does not mean

1335
01:47:27,833 --> 01:47:28,916
it's going to work in Washington.

1336
01:47:29,708 --> 01:47:31,041
And just because people in Washington

1337
01:47:31,041 --> 01:47:32,875
support something does not mean that

1338
01:47:32,875 --> 01:47:33,291
people in Oregon are going to support something.

1339
01:47:34,291 --> 01:47:37,958
And I love quoting one of my favorite

1340
01:47:37,958 --> 01:47:40,125
scientists is Dr. Ashita Voss from Sri

1341
01:47:40,125 --> 01:47:41,458
Lanka. She's a whale scientist.

1342
01:47:42,083 --> 01:47:44,875
And she says every coastline needs a hero

1343
01:47:44,875 --> 01:47:48,208
and the world's largest habitat is going

1344
01:47:48,208 --> 01:47:49,833
to need the world's largest team.

1345
01:47:50,500 --> 01:47:53,083
And so rather than thinking about scaling

1346
01:47:53,083 --> 01:47:55,625
the protections, we need to think about

1347
01:47:55,625 --> 01:47:58,458
scaling the workforce because we have to

1348
01:47:58,458 --> 01:48:02,291
find we have to find the person who's going to be the chief of the world.

1349
01:48:03,291 --> 01:48:04,000
And so we need to be the champion for

1350
01:48:04,000 --> 01:48:06,541
this. And we need a we need a violet sage

1351
01:48:06,541 --> 01:48:10,958
walker for every 50 kilometers of the

1352
01:48:10,958 --> 01:48:12,458
East Coast and every 50

1353
01:48:12,458 --> 01:48:13,791
kilometers of the West Coast.

1354
01:48:14,291 --> 01:48:15,708
We're not going to get and violet sage

1355
01:48:15,708 --> 01:48:17,791
walker just won an award last night. So

1356
01:48:17,791 --> 01:48:21,083
did, you know, Don and Chairman Chair

1357
01:48:21,083 --> 01:48:22,375
Mallory, you know, we

1358
01:48:22,375 --> 01:48:24,083
need more ocean heroes.

1359
01:48:49,291 --> 01:48:50,791
And I think that's where

1360
01:48:50,791 --> 01:48:52,291
the investment has to happen.

1361
01:48:53,291 --> 01:49:02,458
And so you know, the ocean community

1362
01:49:02,458 --> 01:49:05,208
doesn't have a pipeline to support people

1363
01:49:05,208 --> 01:49:06,833
through their entire career.

1364
01:49:07,416 --> 01:49:09,041
You know, we've got lots of things to

1365
01:49:09,041 --> 01:49:11,708
bring people in early, like an earth echo

1366
01:49:11,708 --> 01:49:12,291
or a Sustainable Ocean Alliance and Airstore Ocean.

1367
01:49:12,291 --> 01:49:14,500
or Sustainable Ocean

1368
01:49:14,500 --> 01:49:16,083
Alliance and Airstore Ocean.

1369
01:49:16,083 --> 01:49:16,541
There's a lot of

1370
01:49:16,541 --> 01:49:17,833
things for a junior person

1371
01:49:18,375 --> 01:49:19,791
to do for a year or two,

1372
01:49:20,041 --> 01:49:21,000
and you go in and you get

1373
01:49:21,000 --> 01:49:22,708
that when you're 22, 23, 24,

1374
01:49:23,166 --> 01:49:24,500
but what happens when you're 29?

1375
01:49:25,333 --> 01:49:26,958
What's that next step?

1376
01:49:27,500 --> 01:49:29,416
And how do I keep you in the movement?

1377
01:49:30,416 --> 01:49:31,625
Because when you're in your late 20s

1378
01:49:31,625 --> 01:49:33,458
and you're late early 30s,

1379
01:49:33,666 --> 01:49:35,000
you're gonna learn a lot of lessons then.

1380
01:49:35,875 --> 01:49:36,916
So how do we bridge

1381
01:49:36,916 --> 01:49:38,416
you from junior person

1382
01:49:39,333 --> 01:49:40,458
to senior person?

1383
01:50:02,666 --> 01:50:22,333
And just there's not a lot of money to go around. The reason why it happens

1384
01:50:22,333 --> 01:50:22,458
is they're more delusional.

1385
01:50:22,458 --> 01:50:25,250
You can't sell offitz that you've beenpopled off on TV because you're signed up and you

1386
01:50:25,250 --> 01:50:27,708
had to tell them to pay lead.

1387
01:50:27,708 --> 01:50:29,000
For example, if one of the

1388
01:50:29,000 --> 01:50:29,166
major things they receive

1389
01:50:29,166 --> 01:50:32,208
is the hungerronics.

1390
01:50:32,250 --> 01:50:34,000
But then after that, when they want to

1391
01:50:34,000 --> 01:50:34,583
grow and they want to have a

1392
01:50:34,583 --> 01:50:35,708
family and they want to have,

1393
01:50:35,916 --> 01:50:38,791
you know, you know, a house and live like

1394
01:50:38,791 --> 01:50:40,541
everybody else, oh, we

1395
01:50:40,541 --> 01:50:41,875
don't, we can't pay you

1396
01:50:41,875 --> 01:50:43,833
more because the funding won't allow it

1397
01:50:43,833 --> 01:50:44,833
to happen. I feel like there

1398
01:50:44,833 --> 01:50:46,791
needs to be a switch in this

1399
01:50:46,791 --> 01:50:48,708
paradigm to just be like, we need to

1400
01:50:48,708 --> 01:50:49,583
invest more in the people,

1401
01:50:49,583 --> 01:50:50,833
not only like individually,

1402
01:50:50,833 --> 01:50:52,500
but also within the organization so that

1403
01:50:52,500 --> 01:50:54,541
we can grow that experience and get

1404
01:50:54,541 --> 01:50:55,333
better and better and

1405
01:50:55,333 --> 01:50:58,041
better as we go through. I would love to

1406
01:50:58,041 --> 01:50:58,958
see that. I think that's a

1407
01:50:58,958 --> 01:51:00,541
really great point, Angela. And

1408
01:51:02,250 --> 01:51:04,000
I don't know how it's done. I really

1409
01:51:04,000 --> 01:51:05,541
don't know how it's done. If that's done

1410
01:51:05,541 --> 01:51:06,958
at a community level,

1411
01:51:06,958 --> 01:51:08,083
or it's like, if you see someone who's

1412
01:51:08,083 --> 01:51:08,958
willing to stand up,

1413
01:51:08,958 --> 01:51:10,083
does the community back it

1414
01:51:10,500 --> 01:51:12,833
financially or does like, was it the

1415
01:51:12,833 --> 01:51:14,541
region or county or

1416
01:51:14,541 --> 01:51:18,333
however, how would you propose,

1417
01:51:18,333 --> 01:51:20,000
either of you propose that to be done?

1418
01:51:20,708 --> 01:51:21,625
Yeah, I was a

1419
01:51:21,625 --> 01:51:22,916
beneficiary of that, to be honest.

1420
01:51:23,708 --> 01:51:25,500
So back when I was living on the island

1421
01:51:25,500 --> 01:51:26,166
of a nature

1422
01:51:26,166 --> 01:51:27,416
Conservancy, had this thing called

1423
01:51:27,458 --> 01:51:30,458
Micronesians and Island Conservation and

1424
01:51:30,458 --> 01:51:34,125
TNC was led by Bill

1425
01:51:34,125 --> 01:51:36,041
Rayner, who passed away

1426
01:51:36,041 --> 01:51:38,541
several years ago, but Bill was a mentor

1427
01:51:38,541 --> 01:51:42,500
to a dozen of us, of the Micronesian

1428
01:51:42,500 --> 01:51:43,416
Conservation leaders.

1429
01:51:44,583 --> 01:51:48,583
And TNC created learning spaces for us

1430
01:51:48,583 --> 01:51:50,125
where we could learn from one another and

1431
01:51:50,875 --> 01:51:52,958
you know, advance our career and gain

1432
01:51:52,958 --> 01:51:54,375
skills. So it's not that

1433
01:51:54,375 --> 01:51:56,458
nobody is doing this. Right.

1434
01:51:56,708 --> 01:51:59,250
I think there, you know, there are, I

1435
01:51:59,250 --> 01:52:00,458
love the SACNIS conference,

1436
01:52:00,708 --> 01:52:01,958
the Society for the Advancement

1437
01:52:01,958 --> 01:52:03,208
of Chicanos, Native Americans and

1438
01:52:03,208 --> 01:52:05,916
Science. If you are under 30

1439
01:52:05,916 --> 01:52:08,791
and you are a person of color,

1440
01:52:09,208 --> 01:52:12,291
get your butt to SACNIS. It will, it'll

1441
01:52:12,291 --> 01:52:13,833
be one of the most fulfilling conferences

1442
01:52:14,625 --> 01:52:16,750
that you'll ever see. Again, it can be a

1443
01:52:16,750 --> 01:52:17,416
little bit expensive,

1444
01:52:17,416 --> 01:52:20,000
right? So I admit that. I

1445
01:52:20,083 --> 01:52:22,166
find that IMCC is also one of the, one of

1446
01:52:22,166 --> 01:52:24,125
the better places for

1447
01:52:24,125 --> 01:52:26,125
helping early career folks

1448
01:52:26,416 --> 01:52:28,750
sort of learn skills to keep them in the

1449
01:52:28,750 --> 01:52:29,916
space and feel wanted and

1450
01:52:29,916 --> 01:52:32,208
needed. So it's not that none

1451
01:52:32,208 --> 01:52:35,500
of this is happening, but you know, when

1452
01:52:35,500 --> 01:52:36,625
the, when the millions and

1453
01:52:36,625 --> 01:52:37,583
the billions are discussed,

1454
01:52:38,375 --> 01:52:41,458
a lot of times the people themselves are

1455
01:52:41,458 --> 01:52:44,833
left out. Yeah. So, you know, we're

1456
01:52:44,833 --> 01:52:46,416
talking about near shore

1457
01:52:47,208 --> 01:52:49,375
and although that's been going on for a

1458
01:52:49,375 --> 01:52:50,125
while and these projects

1459
01:52:50,125 --> 01:52:51,416
have been going on for a while

1460
01:52:52,375 --> 01:52:54,250
with this paper that's coming out, where

1461
01:52:54,250 --> 01:52:56,625
do you want, where does this

1462
01:52:56,625 --> 01:52:58,000
paper want to see near shore

1463
01:52:58,500 --> 01:53:01,500
conservation go over the next five to 10

1464
01:53:01,500 --> 01:53:05,791
years in terms of the focus

1465
01:53:05,791 --> 01:53:08,541
of this? How is that going

1466
01:53:08,541 --> 01:53:11,333
to proceed or like the, like where do you

1467
01:53:11,333 --> 01:53:13,375
see it going in the future or hope to see

1468
01:53:13,375 --> 01:53:14,000
it go in the future?

1469
01:53:17,750 --> 01:53:19,541
I think there's a lot of different ways

1470
01:53:19,541 --> 01:53:21,000
and I think as Angela mentioned, we are

1471
01:53:21,000 --> 01:53:21,708
still looking for that

1472
01:53:21,750 --> 01:53:23,791
bumper sticker that will replace 30 by

1473
01:53:23,791 --> 01:53:25,041
30. It's hard to wrap up into

1474
01:53:25,041 --> 01:53:27,625
one concise measure and I think

1475
01:53:27,666 --> 01:53:29,500
you can tell we had a hard time summing

1476
01:53:29,500 --> 01:53:31,541
it up because our report has like 50

1477
01:53:31,541 --> 01:53:32,250
different recommendations

1478
01:53:32,250 --> 01:53:35,000
and places that this could go. I think to

1479
01:53:35,000 --> 01:53:37,583
like sum up into a couple of

1480
01:53:37,583 --> 01:53:39,166
big themes that looking for

1481
01:53:39,166 --> 01:53:41,958
metrics outside of acreage. So again,

1482
01:53:41,958 --> 01:53:44,333
looking towards how can

1483
01:53:44,333 --> 01:53:45,083
we make this ecosystem work

1484
01:53:45,125 --> 01:53:47,333
better for people as well as preserve

1485
01:53:47,333 --> 01:53:50,833
biodiversity and then in

1486
01:53:50,833 --> 01:53:52,583
order to support that, have that

1487
01:53:52,958 --> 01:53:55,666
long-term funding and monitoring and

1488
01:53:55,666 --> 01:53:57,291
really invest in a place rather than sort

1489
01:53:57,291 --> 01:53:58,958
of setting it and walking away,

1490
01:53:59,291 --> 01:54:01,500
how do we continue to invest in making

1491
01:54:01,500 --> 01:54:03,583
sure that this conservation succeeds

1492
01:54:03,583 --> 01:54:04,500
because conservation

1493
01:54:04,500 --> 01:54:08,000
restoration is happens across a decade or

1494
01:54:08,000 --> 01:54:09,458
more rather than just a

1495
01:54:09,458 --> 01:54:10,333
couple of years and what we

1496
01:54:10,333 --> 01:54:12,000
found is that we really have to keep

1497
01:54:12,000 --> 01:54:13,083
investing in a community to

1498
01:54:13,083 --> 01:54:14,083
make sure that that succeeds.

1499
01:54:15,125 --> 01:54:18,250
And then I guess if I had to pick a third

1500
01:54:18,250 --> 01:54:23,416
thing also, looking to things in order to

1501
01:54:23,416 --> 01:54:25,416
ensure success in ocean

1502
01:54:25,458 --> 01:54:27,375
conservation, making sure that we're

1503
01:54:27,375 --> 01:54:29,583
looking towards what's happening on land

1504
01:54:29,583 --> 01:54:31,375
first because we know that

1505
01:54:31,375 --> 01:54:33,666
there are a lot of things that even if

1506
01:54:33,666 --> 01:54:35,416
you draw from a marine protected area,

1507
01:54:35,875 --> 01:54:37,041
there are things outside

1508
01:54:37,041 --> 01:54:38,375
of those boundaries that can really

1509
01:54:38,375 --> 01:54:41,041
impact the success of it. So looking at

1510
01:54:41,041 --> 01:54:42,375
things like development,

1511
01:54:43,666 --> 01:54:45,875
pollution, climate change, all of those

1512
01:54:45,875 --> 01:54:47,166
really diffuse effects,

1513
01:54:48,250 --> 01:54:49,541
which really have an impact on

1514
01:54:49,541 --> 01:54:52,000
biodiversity and start outside of those

1515
01:54:52,000 --> 01:54:54,500
boundaries. So try and rethinking

1516
01:54:54,500 --> 01:54:56,041
conservation to look at those

1517
01:54:56,041 --> 01:54:57,541
stressors in addition to what's happening

1518
01:54:57,541 --> 01:54:59,208
at that sort of local area.

1519
01:55:00,166 --> 01:55:01,750
Well, it's also it's interesting when you

1520
01:55:01,750 --> 01:55:03,041
get to the near shore, because like how

1521
01:55:03,041 --> 01:55:04,416
far inland do you go?

1522
01:55:05,125 --> 01:55:07,458
You know, like we went through an

1523
01:55:07,458 --> 01:55:08,958
exercise here in the Great

1524
01:55:08,958 --> 01:55:10,083
Lakes when I was working for

1525
01:55:10,333 --> 01:55:12,333
Environment Canada, now Environment

1526
01:55:12,333 --> 01:55:14,583
Canada Climate Change, but we were asking

1527
01:55:14,583 --> 01:55:15,666
that question all the time.

1528
01:55:15,666 --> 01:55:18,000
It's like, where do we go? How far up the

1529
01:55:18,000 --> 01:55:20,291
watershed do you go where it's going to

1530
01:55:20,291 --> 01:55:21,208
impact the coastline?

1531
01:55:21,708 --> 01:55:23,958
You know, like where do you get into land

1532
01:55:23,958 --> 01:55:25,666
management as well as

1533
01:55:25,666 --> 01:55:26,666
near shore management?

1534
01:55:27,041 --> 01:55:28,791
Because there's that intersection, and

1535
01:55:28,791 --> 01:55:31,333
it's so highly influenced, it's so

1536
01:55:31,333 --> 01:55:33,958
connected, it's like how far up you go.

1537
01:55:33,958 --> 01:55:35,166
And then like, there's almost like you

1538
01:55:35,166 --> 01:55:37,458
needed to do as the top of the watershed,

1539
01:55:37,458 --> 01:55:38,375
and then you look down,

1540
01:55:38,416 --> 01:55:40,125
and that's what it is for. Because

1541
01:55:40,125 --> 01:55:41,833
they're all delineated, like there's a

1542
01:55:41,833 --> 01:55:43,125
lot of research within that.

1543
01:55:43,125 --> 01:55:44,416
It's just how, but there's not a lot of

1544
01:55:44,416 --> 01:55:46,791
research and how it interacts with the

1545
01:55:46,791 --> 01:55:48,125
bigger body of water,

1546
01:55:48,125 --> 01:55:49,208
whether it be a lake or in this

1547
01:55:49,208 --> 01:55:51,875
situation, an ocean, and how that that's

1548
01:55:51,875 --> 01:55:52,750
managed. Because now you're

1549
01:55:52,750 --> 01:55:55,000
looking at, you know, realms that we

1550
01:55:55,000 --> 01:55:56,708
never really, we always treated

1551
01:55:56,708 --> 01:55:58,208
separately. And I think that's

1552
01:55:58,416 --> 01:55:59,833
one of the challenges that can be

1553
01:55:59,833 --> 01:56:01,833
overcome, it could be addressed, it's

1554
01:56:01,833 --> 01:56:02,958
just that you need to

1555
01:56:02,958 --> 01:56:05,958
bring other people in that are not just

1556
01:56:05,958 --> 01:56:07,000
ocean people, but other

1557
01:56:07,000 --> 01:56:08,083
people in. Yeah, for sure.

1558
01:56:08,250 --> 01:56:09,458
That are land people, not only from a

1559
01:56:09,458 --> 01:56:10,458
science perspective, but

1560
01:56:10,458 --> 01:56:11,791
from a steward perspective,

1561
01:56:11,916 --> 01:56:16,250
right? So there's a lot of things that

1562
01:56:16,250 --> 01:56:18,083
complicate the process, but

1563
01:56:18,083 --> 01:56:19,958
make it better in the end,

1564
01:56:20,625 --> 01:56:22,250
and probably better for ocean, just in

1565
01:56:22,250 --> 01:56:23,791
general, right? Yeah,

1566
01:56:23,791 --> 01:56:25,125
there's a lot of siloing between

1567
01:56:25,125 --> 01:56:26,833
the sort of the land and ocean and world.

1568
01:56:26,833 --> 01:56:28,333
And I think it makes it

1569
01:56:28,333 --> 01:56:29,333
harder to do the things that

1570
01:56:29,375 --> 01:56:32,250
we need to do. One of our sort of like,

1571
01:56:32,250 --> 01:56:32,958
kill your darlings

1572
01:56:32,958 --> 01:56:34,583
moments for this report is we

1573
01:56:34,583 --> 01:56:37,083
originally had included, we would love to

1574
01:56:37,083 --> 01:56:38,791
include salmon and rivers

1575
01:56:38,791 --> 01:56:40,250
and freshwater impacts as well.

1576
01:56:40,875 --> 01:56:42,458
And so we ended up saving that for

1577
01:56:42,458 --> 01:56:44,500
something else, maybe down the line, but

1578
01:56:44,500 --> 01:56:46,791
it was difficult because

1579
01:56:46,958 --> 01:56:49,000
everything that happens in freshwater and

1580
01:56:49,000 --> 01:56:51,000
rivers and streams ends up

1581
01:56:51,000 --> 01:56:52,833
affecting the ocean. So it's

1582
01:56:53,000 --> 01:56:57,125
all very sort of a gray area in terms of

1583
01:56:57,125 --> 01:56:57,833
where does that

1584
01:56:57,833 --> 01:57:01,166
conservation focus stop. And so I think

1585
01:57:01,375 --> 01:57:03,625
we try and make a note of that in this

1586
01:57:03,625 --> 01:57:06,250
report. And again, say that

1587
01:57:06,250 --> 01:57:07,166
if you really care about what

1588
01:57:07,166 --> 01:57:08,583
happens to the ocean, you need to care

1589
01:57:08,583 --> 01:57:11,000
about what happens on land. But again,

1590
01:57:11,000 --> 01:57:13,833
it's a difficult space because

1591
01:57:13,833 --> 01:57:17,708
it really the focus is so large. Yeah,

1592
01:57:17,708 --> 01:57:19,375
but I think also too, you can get

1593
01:57:19,375 --> 01:57:20,458
probably more people involved

1594
01:57:20,750 --> 01:57:22,458
because they can actually see the

1595
01:57:22,458 --> 01:57:23,708
results. It's almost like a beach

1596
01:57:23,708 --> 01:57:24,833
cleanup, right? When you do a

1597
01:57:24,833 --> 01:57:26,500
beach kind of a community together, you

1598
01:57:26,500 --> 01:57:27,958
can clean up the beaches, you see that

1599
01:57:27,958 --> 01:57:28,833
the beaches are clean,

1600
01:57:29,250 --> 01:57:30,708
people want to go more on the beach and

1601
01:57:30,708 --> 01:57:32,333
as they get more connected. I

1602
01:57:32,333 --> 01:57:33,583
feel almost the same way with

1603
01:57:33,583 --> 01:57:35,500
with a near shore habitat, you can get

1604
01:57:35,500 --> 01:57:37,041
people from land going towards

1605
01:57:37,041 --> 01:57:38,166
the coast, maybe do a cleanup

1606
01:57:38,166 --> 01:57:39,958
in a wetland or something like that, and

1607
01:57:39,958 --> 01:57:41,000
really understand and get

1608
01:57:41,000 --> 01:57:42,416
to know that area that they

1609
01:57:42,416 --> 01:57:44,000
may not have gotten to know in the first

1610
01:57:44,000 --> 01:57:45,166
place. Like I live in a

1611
01:57:45,166 --> 01:57:46,458
temperate area, mud flats are

1612
01:57:47,375 --> 01:57:49,666
key ecosystems, but nobody wants to go

1613
01:57:49,666 --> 01:57:50,666
play in the mud anymore.

1614
01:57:50,666 --> 01:57:51,458
They don't want to get dirty

1615
01:57:51,666 --> 01:57:52,916
when that's probably one of the best

1616
01:57:52,916 --> 01:57:55,208
places to go or salt marsh and things

1617
01:57:55,208 --> 01:57:56,000
like that. It could be

1618
01:57:56,000 --> 01:57:57,958
hard to get into. But once you start

1619
01:57:57,958 --> 01:57:59,833
getting kids in and youth

1620
01:57:59,833 --> 01:58:01,125
programs and stuff like that,

1621
01:58:01,125 --> 01:58:03,000
and even adult programs to get into

1622
01:58:03,000 --> 01:58:04,500
there, then maybe it can

1623
01:58:04,500 --> 01:58:05,916
help. So there could be a way to

1624
01:58:05,916 --> 01:58:07,833
really get more people interested because

1625
01:58:07,833 --> 01:58:09,000
they can see the results

1626
01:58:09,000 --> 01:58:10,625
based on this. But like,

1627
01:58:10,916 --> 01:58:13,416
if someone is listening to this right now

1628
01:58:13,416 --> 01:58:14,500
and they're in a coastal community,

1629
01:58:15,208 --> 01:58:17,375
and they want to be that champion,

1630
01:58:18,041 --> 01:58:19,583
whether it be now or in the future, they

1631
01:58:19,583 --> 01:58:20,791
want to build up to that.

1632
01:58:22,250 --> 01:58:24,500
How can a document like this or what

1633
01:58:24,500 --> 01:58:26,500
comes out of the documents, like this

1634
01:58:26,500 --> 01:58:27,250
near shore conservation

1635
01:58:27,666 --> 01:58:30,791
document that can help those communities

1636
01:58:30,791 --> 01:58:32,166
and people who want to

1637
01:58:32,166 --> 01:58:35,083
become that near shore champion?

1638
01:58:35,500 --> 01:58:39,708
Every coastline needs a hero, man. I

1639
01:58:39,708 --> 01:58:43,166
mean, as individuals, we are more

1640
01:58:43,166 --> 01:58:45,416
effective in the place we live

1641
01:58:45,833 --> 01:58:48,500
than these other places that are far off.

1642
01:58:48,958 --> 01:58:52,333
And not only that, you have expertise

1643
01:58:53,208 --> 01:58:56,166
in relationships that an outsider will

1644
01:58:56,166 --> 01:58:59,541
never have. And so I think

1645
01:58:59,541 --> 01:59:01,125
for this report, it's meant

1646
01:59:01,541 --> 01:59:07,208
as a resource. We kind of the way it's

1647
01:59:07,208 --> 01:59:08,500
there's six habitats in the

1648
01:59:08,500 --> 01:59:10,875
paper. And we considered others,

1649
01:59:11,375 --> 01:59:14,333
but they didn't make the report. I didn't

1650
01:59:14,333 --> 01:59:15,166
see mudflats in that

1651
01:59:15,166 --> 01:59:16,500
report. Yeah, we found

1652
01:59:18,500 --> 01:59:20,416
we'll do a separate report on mangroves

1653
01:59:20,416 --> 01:59:25,750
mudflats and sand. But we, you know,

1654
01:59:26,250 --> 01:59:28,250
we made it on these six because there's

1655
01:59:28,250 --> 01:59:29,208
people all around the

1656
01:59:29,208 --> 01:59:30,958
country who care about kelp.

1657
01:59:32,208 --> 01:59:33,500
And like, kelp is just a great example.

1658
01:59:34,166 --> 01:59:36,750
The largest habitat for

1659
01:59:36,750 --> 01:59:38,166
kelp is in the United States

1660
01:59:38,166 --> 01:59:41,500
and Canada. So if we're going to, if we

1661
01:59:41,500 --> 01:59:43,083
protect the kelp in Canada

1662
01:59:43,083 --> 01:59:44,583
and the United States, it is

1663
01:59:44,583 --> 01:59:46,458
going to be a globally significant

1664
01:59:46,458 --> 01:59:49,791
action. But only 2% of US waters have

1665
01:59:49,791 --> 01:59:51,416
kelp. And it tends to

1666
01:59:51,458 --> 01:59:53,166
be near shore, like it tends to be a

1667
01:59:53,166 --> 01:59:54,833
water shallower than 130

1668
01:59:54,833 --> 01:59:56,458
feet, which is like 30 meters.

1669
01:59:57,833 --> 02:00:01,000
And so it's just you don't, if you care,

1670
02:00:01,000 --> 02:00:02,916
if your metric of success is 30 by 30,

1671
02:00:03,625 --> 02:00:05,833
you don't capture kelp, right? It's just,

1672
02:00:05,833 --> 02:00:06,916
it's not a part of it. So

1673
02:00:06,916 --> 02:00:08,083
we're trying to change a

1674
02:00:08,083 --> 02:00:10,333
narrative and just showing that there's

1675
02:00:10,333 --> 02:00:11,083
all this great work

1676
02:00:11,083 --> 02:00:12,416
happening all across the country.

1677
02:00:13,791 --> 02:00:15,125
So if you're just a person living

1678
02:00:15,125 --> 02:00:17,500
somewhere, you know what you care about.

1679
02:00:17,916 --> 02:00:18,625
You know, if there's

1680
02:00:18,708 --> 02:00:20,541
coral reefs off your water, you know, if

1681
02:00:20,541 --> 02:00:22,458
it's kelp, you know, if

1682
02:00:22,458 --> 02:00:23,875
you're surrounded by seagrasses,

1683
02:00:24,250 --> 02:00:26,208
because all of all across the country,

1684
02:00:26,833 --> 02:00:27,750
these habitats

1685
02:00:27,750 --> 02:00:29,625
dominate in different places.

1686
02:00:30,333 --> 02:00:32,125
And this is a resource for you to

1687
02:00:32,125 --> 02:00:33,791
understand some of the

1688
02:00:33,791 --> 02:00:35,166
more successful interventions

1689
02:00:35,958 --> 02:00:37,666
that are happening all across the United

1690
02:00:37,666 --> 02:00:39,875
States. And it can be a

1691
02:00:39,875 --> 02:00:41,250
starting place for you.

1692
02:00:41,916 --> 02:00:43,333
So, you know, maybe you're in the US

1693
02:00:43,333 --> 02:00:46,083
Virgin Islands, and they have a really

1694
02:00:46,083 --> 02:00:46,958
good watershed plan.

1695
02:00:47,583 --> 02:00:49,333
But other things that you can learn from

1696
02:00:49,333 --> 02:00:50,666
Guam, you know, like how,

1697
02:00:52,250 --> 02:00:53,875
what are the things that they can learn

1698
02:00:53,875 --> 02:00:56,583
from one another? But the big picture is,

1699
02:00:57,458 --> 02:00:59,041
we're trying to change this narrative of,

1700
02:01:00,000 --> 02:01:00,791
you know, nobody has ever

1701
02:01:00,791 --> 02:01:02,250
stood in front of the Grand Canyon

1702
02:01:02,625 --> 02:01:04,291
and said, I bet you didn't know how many

1703
02:01:04,291 --> 02:01:06,000
acres in here. You know,

1704
02:01:06,000 --> 02:01:07,625
it's the Grand freaking Canyon.

1705
02:01:08,000 --> 02:01:10,333
That's grand. That's the grand. It's

1706
02:01:10,333 --> 02:01:12,416
great. You know, I think Ron

1707
02:01:12,416 --> 02:01:13,791
Swanson said crying is allowed

1708
02:01:14,000 --> 02:01:15,666
when looking at the grain. I didn't get

1709
02:01:15,666 --> 02:01:17,000
this exactly right. This

1710
02:01:17,000 --> 02:01:18,166
is crying is allowed when

1711
02:01:18,166 --> 02:01:19,166
you're in front of the Grand Canyon

1712
02:01:19,166 --> 02:01:21,500
because it's a magnificent, beautiful

1713
02:01:21,500 --> 02:01:23,875
place. And I feel that

1714
02:01:23,875 --> 02:01:26,000
way about coral reefs. These are

1715
02:01:26,000 --> 02:01:27,708
magnificent, beautiful

1716
02:01:27,708 --> 02:01:31,166
places. And they do not get enough

1717
02:01:31,166 --> 02:01:33,166
attention in the national conservation

1718
02:01:33,166 --> 02:01:36,208
discussion. And we're hoping to help

1719
02:01:36,208 --> 02:01:37,000
change that narrative

1720
02:01:37,666 --> 02:01:40,083
and, you know, deliver a hero for every

1721
02:01:40,083 --> 02:01:41,791
coastline. Well, this I love

1722
02:01:41,791 --> 02:01:42,958
this. This is something that's

1723
02:01:43,125 --> 02:01:45,583
that I've been behind for a while now.

1724
02:01:45,583 --> 02:01:47,833
And I'm really glad both of you were able

1725
02:01:47,833 --> 02:01:49,541
to come on to the podcast and be able to

1726
02:01:49,541 --> 02:01:51,208
talk about this. I think this will be the

1727
02:01:51,208 --> 02:01:52,916
first of many conversations we have about

1728
02:01:52,916 --> 02:01:55,958
near shore conservation and, you know,

1729
02:01:56,166 --> 02:01:57,916
highlighting leaders, highlighting these

1730
02:01:57,916 --> 02:01:59,833
coastal champions, these community

1731
02:01:59,833 --> 02:02:02,750
champions, and help others and inspire

1732
02:02:02,750 --> 02:02:05,250
others to do the same. You know, like you

1733
02:02:05,250 --> 02:02:07,458
said, every community has one. It's just

1734
02:02:07,458 --> 02:02:09,500
a matter of prying with the resources to

1735
02:02:09,500 --> 02:02:11,125
get them to get to the level that they

1736
02:02:11,125 --> 02:02:12,500
need to get and to be able to get to the

1737
02:02:13,166 --> 02:02:15,458
the results that they want and their

1738
02:02:15,458 --> 02:02:17,000
community wants. So I want to thank both

1739
02:02:17,000 --> 02:02:19,458
the Aliyah and Angela for coming on the

1740
02:02:19,458 --> 02:02:20,875
podcast sharing this report. We'll link

1741
02:02:20,875 --> 02:02:23,333
to the report in the show notes and other

1742
02:02:23,333 --> 02:02:26,500
resources that you might have. And then,

1743
02:02:26,500 --> 02:02:28,000
yeah, we want to thank you so much for

1744
02:02:28,000 --> 02:02:30,708
coming on the podcast again. And Aliyah,

1745
02:02:30,708 --> 02:02:34,250
we'd love to have you back on to be able

1746
02:02:34,250 --> 02:02:36,041
to discuss more about this near shore

1747
02:02:36,041 --> 02:02:38,416
frameworks and conservation. And Angela,

1748
02:02:38,416 --> 02:02:40,041
of course, you're always welcome to come

1749
02:02:40,041 --> 02:02:42,041
back on. And I want to

1750
02:02:42,041 --> 02:02:43,000
thank you. Thank you very much.

1751
02:02:43,958 --> 02:02:45,625
Awesome. Thanks for having us.

1752
02:02:46,166 --> 02:02:47,708
Thank you, Alia and Angelo for joining me

1753
02:02:47,708 --> 02:02:48,833
on today's episode of the

1754
02:02:48,833 --> 02:02:49,458
How to Protect the Ocean

1755
02:02:49,458 --> 02:02:51,083
podcast. It was great to have you on to

1756
02:02:51,083 --> 02:02:51,916
be able to talk about

1757
02:02:51,916 --> 02:02:52,916
near shore conservation,

1758
02:02:53,291 --> 02:02:55,000
something that has been always near and

1759
02:02:55,000 --> 02:02:56,666
dear to me. I always found

1760
02:02:56,666 --> 02:02:57,958
that when you're living along

1761
02:02:57,958 --> 02:02:59,125
the coast, somebody told me this a while

1762
02:02:59,125 --> 02:03:00,250
ago, and I always go by

1763
02:03:00,250 --> 02:03:01,458
this. When you live along the

1764
02:03:01,458 --> 02:03:03,541
coastline, you want to look out onto a

1765
02:03:03,541 --> 02:03:05,625
lake, onto a river, onto an

1766
02:03:05,625 --> 02:03:07,000
ocean, and you want to say,

1767
02:03:07,166 --> 02:03:09,000
"This looks pretty cool." You don't want

1768
02:03:09,000 --> 02:03:09,875
to see green water.

1769
02:03:09,875 --> 02:03:10,625
You don't want to smell

1770
02:03:10,875 --> 02:03:12,583
nastiness in the water. You want to see

1771
02:03:12,583 --> 02:03:14,500
intact and natural areas,

1772
02:03:14,500 --> 02:03:16,375
not all just concrete barriers

1773
02:03:16,583 --> 02:03:18,458
and seawalls and things like that. You

1774
02:03:18,458 --> 02:03:20,000
want to see natural areas.

1775
02:03:20,000 --> 02:03:21,375
And I think we are getting to

1776
02:03:21,375 --> 02:03:23,041
that point now where the focus starts to

1777
02:03:23,041 --> 02:03:24,166
go onto near shore

1778
02:03:24,166 --> 02:03:25,833
conservation. I really thought it was

1779
02:03:25,833 --> 02:03:27,833
interesting how the conversation really

1780
02:03:27,833 --> 02:03:29,958
started from the evolution of the

1781
02:03:29,958 --> 02:03:31,500
different focuses of

1782
02:03:31,541 --> 02:03:33,791
conservation as from like 70s and 80s

1783
02:03:33,791 --> 02:03:35,000
when Angelo and I were young

1784
02:03:35,000 --> 02:03:36,500
kids in the 80s and then seeing

1785
02:03:36,541 --> 02:03:38,583
how that's evolved over time and even to

1786
02:03:38,583 --> 02:03:42,125
now from 30 by 32 near shore and justice

1787
02:03:42,125 --> 02:03:43,416
and equity within conservation

1788
02:03:43,541 --> 02:03:46,041
in that focus. And I think even doing

1789
02:03:46,041 --> 02:03:47,750
this type of conservation, no matter what

1790
02:03:47,750 --> 02:03:48,833
happens in different

1791
02:03:48,833 --> 02:03:50,583
countries and how different government

1792
02:03:50,583 --> 02:03:52,416
administrations change their ways and

1793
02:03:52,416 --> 02:03:53,666
change the way they see things,

1794
02:03:53,916 --> 02:03:56,500
but also being able to work with ocean

1795
02:03:56,500 --> 02:03:58,125
heroes, ocean communities,

1796
02:03:58,500 --> 02:03:59,875
and just any type of coastal

1797
02:03:59,958 --> 02:04:03,583
community to be able to champion the idea

1798
02:04:03,583 --> 02:04:05,916
and support and lead the idea of coastal

1799
02:04:05,916 --> 02:04:07,416
conservation. So I just thought it was a

1800
02:04:07,416 --> 02:04:08,500
really good interview and a really good

1801
02:04:08,500 --> 02:04:10,291
topic to discuss something that we'll be

1802
02:04:10,291 --> 02:04:12,583
discussing a lot more in the future. I'd

1803
02:04:12,583 --> 02:04:14,083
love to hear your thoughts though on it.

1804
02:04:14,333 --> 02:04:16,041
Let us know in the comments below if

1805
02:04:16,041 --> 02:04:17,333
you're watching this on YouTube or you

1806
02:04:17,333 --> 02:04:19,791
can DM me at how to protect the ocean on

1807
02:04:19,791 --> 02:04:21,458
Instagram. That's at how to protect the

1808
02:04:21,458 --> 02:04:23,875
ocean or you can go to speakupforblue.com

1809
02:04:23,875 --> 02:04:25,541
forward slash contact and just fill out

1810
02:04:25,541 --> 02:04:27,000
the form. Let me know how you feel. It

1811
02:04:27,000 --> 02:04:28,166
goes right to my inbox. I'll

1812
02:04:28,166 --> 02:04:29,875
answer you as soon as I can.

1813
02:04:30,000 --> 02:04:32,250
Again, thank you to Alia. Thank you to

1814
02:04:32,250 --> 02:04:33,583
Angela for coming on the podcast and

1815
02:04:33,583 --> 02:04:35,333
sharing this knowledge with us. Love to

1816
02:04:35,333 --> 02:04:36,875
have you back on in the future to talk

1817
02:04:36,875 --> 02:04:38,458
more about near shore conservation as

1818
02:04:38,458 --> 02:04:40,541
well as other types of conservation. And

1819
02:04:40,541 --> 02:04:41,791
I want to thank you, the audience for

1820
02:04:41,791 --> 02:04:43,333
listening to this episode of the how to

1821
02:04:43,333 --> 02:04:44,750
protect the ocean podcast. I'm your host,

1822
02:04:44,958 --> 02:04:46,666
Angela from the true north, strong and

1823
02:04:46,666 --> 02:04:48,250
free. Have a great day. We'll talk to you

1824
02:04:48,250 --> 02:04:49,916
next time and happy conservation.