A New PBS Documentary Wants You to Care About Coral. Meet the Man Behind It.

0:00 Imagine you're a dive shop owner, and you live in the Keys, in the Florida Keys, right? Beautiful place. It's known for the coral reef diversity, wall-to-wall corals back in the 80s, 70s, 80s, 90s, even 2000s. And then you start to notice some degradation. You start to notice some patches. There's disease outbreaks that hit the reefs hard. Climate change is affecting it, increased sea surface temperatures, heat waves. You know, you're getting the highest temperatures at 100 degrees Fahrenheit we've ever recorded. And you start to see the reef go down and down to it, to the point where you couldn't see patches before, and then all of a sudden now it's just a huge patch.

0:41 It's like patches of coral reef everywhere. You have a choice to make as a dive shop owner. You can continue on, and you can try and do something, or you can just say, "Hey, you know what? Put my arms up like I tried. I did what I did, but I have a business. I have a life too. I have a family I have to worry about, and I need to support. And so I'm gonna just sell the business and get out while I can." Not for my guest today, Michael Goldberg, who is the co-founder of ICARE. It's ICARE for Corals, is a marketer, a businessman, who teamed up with a coral reef scientist to help rebuild the coral reefs through reef restorations, through creating frags, and replanting them in the wild. He's been doing this for the last five and a half years.

1:21 So much so that it's caught on so much so that there is a movie called, Descent Into The Blue that's coming out on PBS on September 1st, 2026, where you can watch where all this came from. How Mike and how Kylie, which is his co-founder, Kylie Smith, Dr. Kylie Smith, met, and how they started to ask each other questions. Like, Mike was asking her questions about coral reef restoration and how we're gonna fix the corals and everything, and how that company formed, but also what it was like beforehand and the problem that they were facing, and then their solution, which was about reef restoration. And the whole point of this, what they want you to get out of it, is that to care for the reefs, that there are people out there who want to do something, not just for business, but for the fact that the sake that they care about the reef, they care about the community, they care about the culture of Key West.

2:05 And I think this is a great story to tell, and I wanted Mike to come on the podcast to tell this. The director, Rory Fielding, of the film, was supposed to make it. He unfortunately wasn't able to make it, but the movie that they're gonna see on PBS is absolutely phenomenal. I'm gonna put the link to the trailer, if I'm allowed, in the show notes so you can check that out, but also don't forget to check out the PBS show when it comes out on September 1st, 2026. But until then, enjoy this interview with Mike Goldberg talking about reef restoration. We talk not only about his story and how this all happened, but also, what needs to happen in the reef restoration field now, not just the science, but also the business implementation part and sort of newfound ways to fund. Because we know governments these days, you just never know if they're gonna fund things or not, and funding has been cut over the last little bit.

2:48 So we're gonna talk about that all on this episode. Here's the interview with Mike. Enjoy, and I'll talk to you after. Hey, Mike. Welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about Descent Into the Blue, the new movie that's coming out on PBS? I am so excited about this. I just found out a few minutes ago that it was actually airing next week- on PBS, so I cannot wait. Oh, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a lot of fun. I've seen the trailer. I've seen the screening. It looks impeccable in terms of imagery, the videography. There's so many different voices that are speaking about how important coral reefs are. And I, I'm looking forward to discussing all of that.

3:29 We're gonna have really interesting conversation today, not only about Descent Into the Blue, this movie that's gonna be airing on PBS that you were a part of, but also we're gonna have a frank conversation about coral restoration. Where it's at. Cause we see it all the time on Instagram. We see a lot of different organizations from all over the world trying to restore their reefs to what it was at some point. And there's a lot to learn from that, and there's a lot of things that we can progress on, and I think we're gonna talk all these things, especially from you, who you've had, you know, a number of years, you know, the dive industry and coral restoration and all that kind of stuff. So, we're gonna have a great conversation. I'm looking forward to it. But before we get into all that, Mike, why don't you just let us know who you are and what you do? Yep, no problem. Yeah, I'm excited as well.

4:09 My name is Mike Goldberg. I am the co-founder of ICARE, and we're restoration group based in Islamorada, Florida. But before I even started that, I became a dive professional decades ago. I'm embarrassed to say how many years ago now. Uh, 30-some odd years ago. Yeah. And, I own a scuba dive business in the Florida Keys. I've been diving regularly for decades, over, well over 10,000 dives. I had the actual privilege to see the reefs at their- pristine, almost impeccable finest. And seeing what we've seen in the last, oh, roughly 10 years is, not only heartbreaking, but it also forced me to do something, and that's how I.CARE was born.

4:53 My co-founder and I just said, "Okay, that's enough. We gotta do something. We can't just sit here and hope someone else does that. We need to be the ones to take up the reins to make a difference for our community, specifically here in the Florida Keys." Yeah. I mean, that's, it's an interesting background too, right? you know, a lot of the times when we talk about coral restoration, we have scientists on and they're looking at frags and how frags will react to certain different conditions. You come from a business background, marketing background, finance background, own your own business, and this is, like, a key. Like, you're in the community, in the Keys. And the Keys from my-- I never had the opportunity. From my understanding, it is a very tight-knit community. You care about what's around.

5:35 It's very ecotourism or very even tourism-based. and the water is everything, to that community. The reefs are everything, and there's a history there. There's a culture there that has really invested into these reefs. You said something that's, that I find really interesting. The last 10 years is where you've really seen the degradation of the reefs. when you first started to notice it, 10 or so years ago, were you thinking, like, this is the beginning of this, or were you just thinking, like, this is just a one-year thing or a two-year thing? Oh, no. I knew it was the real deal. The first bleaching event that I saw widespread was in the Eastern Caribbean back in… And I could be mistaken on the year.

6:15 We'll call it 2008, roughly. and that was a shock. We didn't know what coral bleaching was. I didn't. I heard about it. There were some rumblings of things happening in the Barrier Reef out in Australia, but everything we had experienced up to that point was just perfection in the Eastern Caribbean where I was living. And then, know, about 10 years ago when we faced SCTLD, you know, stony coral tissue loss disease, and had already a bleaching event before that, yeah, I mean, I, I knew we were in for a shift that was significant and that we weren't gonna be able to escape it. And we were watching, as you know, and your audience knows, we were just watching corals die all around us.

6:59 As a non-scientist at that point, I almost threw up my hands. I mean, I didn't know what to do, and it was depressing. And actually, as a business owner, my wife would tell me, "What are you doing? The product isn't what it used to be. You better get out of this business before it's too late. You're not gonna have anything to sell, and we've invested all, you know, our life into this. You, you invested your life into this business and your industry." And she had a good point, to be fair. Uh, so, w-you know, what's one guy that knows nothing about how to change things, what's one guy gonna do? 10 years ago was really when it hit home, for sure. Yeah. But I'm not the type of person to give up. That's just not my nature. So, I had to do something. But it was quite traumatic at that time, for sure.

7:40 I can imagine. Well, I mean, especially from a business owner standpoint, I get it. Like, you know, just what you said- Mm-hmm … like what your wife was saying is like, "What do we do?" Did you see other dive shops close down or other businesses that depended on the reef close down 'cause they saw, like what was gonna happen? Not necessarily that direct correlation, but when tourists come and they put their face in the water in, let's say, 2017, and they say, "What the hell happened?" You know that there's forces competing for their dollars to go skiing or go do something else, whatever it is that's on their bucket list. And when there's other things that are competing and the diving doesn't give them the same high that it once did, well, you're naturally gonna see a loss.

8:28 I would say that's more what happened. And over the years, you know, in the last 10 to 15 years, we've seen a consolidation for sure in the dive industry, no question about it. There's a variety of forces involved, but that certainly is a major factor, so. Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. Now, you did mention that at some point, you started to say, "Look, we've gotta do something," Take me back to that time where you started to think that, and you started-- Like you said, you're not gonna give up. You're gonna help out. Obviously it's a big problem. This is not just a local to the Keys. This is a larger global problem, which again, you said, you know, you come from a very different background where conservation wasn't necessarily, like, at the forefront of your career, and you're learning about bleaching and all this kind of stuff.

9:13 What was your first idea in terms-- Before ICARE was even thought about, like, what was the first thing you were thinking about when it was time to be like, "Hey, we either have to put up or shut up," kind of thing? Sure. Sure. So, about 2017-ish, '28-- early 2018, a young lady walked into my shop, and I Turned out to eventually be my co-founder, Dr. Kylie Smith. And she was there just to fill some tanks. She was working on her PhD. She was doing a project down in Marathon and, studying the relationship between the parrotfish populations and coral outplants.

9:54 And, you know, we were still going through the tremendous coral loss with stony coral tissue loss disease. I said, "Okay. All right, Kylie. I don't know you too well, but sit down. I got a lot of questions for you." And that's literally how it started. And she would come in every week, two, three times a week, and she couldn't get out without me asking a dozen questions. I'm a very inquisitive person, and I wanted to figure out what it is that was happening, why, if anyone knew what was happening. Because at the time, they really didn't know. It was too early on in the evolution of that disease, so it was a mystery to most.

10:38 And I said during this period of discovery for me, I said, "Well, I've got an idea." I started doing some work with another restoration group, and it gave me that idea of how we can incorporate the public in a much more meaningful way, and using the best science possible. You know, It was an interesting time for her because she's finishing her PhD, trying to figure out her career path and what she wants to do. And I looked at it as a fantastic business opportunity. I had already gone heavily into conservation in other aspects that were much less scientific. you know, doing re- hosting reef cleanups, distributing grocery bags to the community for free, so they would have reusable grocery bags.

11:24 Recovering all used wetsuits from the Keys and having them made into yoga mats. So I was already on the forefront of doing something unique as a business, and then this was a natural direction for me to go because my-- If anyone gets to know me, I'm a complete coral geek, always have been. And I could stare at a piece of coral and a hammerhead shark could swim in front of me, and I really-- It's like, "Okay, cool, but let me look at this piece of coral, 'cause this is really beautiful." And through those discussions with Dr. Smith, we were able to formulate the basis of what ICARE is today. And that took about a year figuring out what direction, convincing her not to take a government job and, being a, the, top person in her own nonprofit.

12:08 'Cause there's a lot of risk involved. I didn't see it that way. Her family members saw it that way. It's kind of a funny story when you think about it. But I convinced her that, "No, there's no risk. This is great. This is gonna be the best thing for you. Trust me, we're gonna make this work." And, with her connections within the scientific community and my connections within the dive industry, we were able to actually pull it off. That's amazing. So it is a nonprofit organization, ICARE, right? Yes. Yes, it is. Okay. And so when you first started to put this thing together, you went right to, "We're gonna restore the reefs. We're gonna frag reefs, corals, and we're going to start planting them." Was that the original idea?

12:50 Was like, this is-- It was this where Dr. Smith was like, this is the idea. This is what people are doing. This is what the science is telling us. This is how we're gonna rebuild these reefs." There was a lot of discovery on our part and a lot of learning. And I was learning the industry as much as anything else. How other practitioners were, moving forward, what they were doing, how they were doing it, what was working, what was not working, in all aspects, from the actual work underwater, above the waterline, and also how it works within the community. So we were working on all fronts, and it wasn't just propagating coral. We started actually with a partnership with working directly with Mote Marine Laboratories.

13:35 And that's how it all started. What is it now? Almost five and a half years ago. January of '21, I think, is when we put our first coral down But it has evolved since then where we are now propagating all of our own coral and we have our own onshore nursery. And then in October, just over a month, we are installing nine offshore coral and sponge nurseries. So it's becoming a full standalone restoration effort for sure. Not just a partnership with anyone. But although we do partner now closely with Reef Renewal USA, with Ken Nedimyer. We have a wonderful partnership there. And we partner with everyone.

14:16 We partner with Mote Marine Laboratories, with our sponge work as well. So there's several partnerships, and we also partner with Florida Aquarium and Reef Institute. And it's not just us as a standalone. We do avail ourselves to everyone, in a reciprocating way, for sure. And these partnerships, obviously there's a lot of new things that you guys could be trying and can take what they've been working on, 'cause all of them work on coral restoration at some point, in some- Yes … part of their programs. Undoubtedly, yes. What do you find, like, you, like, ICARE really gets from these partnerships? What's the real benefit here? Wow, knowledge. I mean, really, truthfully, it's knowledge first and foremost. We do share coral, of course.

14:58 But the knowledge that we gain from someone like Ken Nedimyer or with the works that Florida Aquarium are doing, which is thoroughly cutting edge, that knowledge helps us advance what work we are doing, for sure. We're installing nine pop-up nurseries in October. And for your audience, if they're not aware, a pop-up nursery is this idea was started by Ken Nedimyer. He did it in a couple locations, and we're taking it to what we believe is another level because we believe that's an ideal way for our setup so that each site that we're restoring has its own nursery. And that comes from a conversation that I had with Ken, and I said, "Okay, let's take it up a step," because we're taking divers out every day on our boats that are paid spots.

15:52 One of the difficulties with an offshore nursery is the maintenance. Everyone knows it. It's intense. it never stops. And we're gonna be the only group to have people paying every day of the week to go do it. 'Cause my boat and the other partners that we work with in the Keys will have the option to offer to their customers, if, as long as we're on the boat, they can either go dive the reef for fun or make a left turn and go into the nursery and do work. It's their choice. That we don't have to pay for as a group. Right. Like, that, that's free to us. Customers are paying to do that.

16:34 That's vital considering the constraints we have financially. And we also biologically keep the corals and the sponges next to the areas that they're actually gonna be transplanted to just feet away. So we don't have to remove the corals from the water, put them on a boat, transport them someplace else, put them back in the water. I know that that is acceptable and it works, but that is a stressor that those corals don't have to endure, and those sponges, they don't, do not have to endure. Sponges even more so because they are so susceptible to that transport stress. I would imagine, I mean, to reduce risk is probably the best thing that you can do is reduce that risk of lengthy travel so that it's right there.

17:20 A question for you. Y-y-you mentioned pop-up nurseries. So are these temporary nurseries until you get what's going on, or are they, like, more semi-temporary where they can be there for years? Semi-temporary. Yeah, okay. They'll definitely be there for years. Absolutely. Gotcha. I mean, in the eyes of the governing bodies, the way it's set up, it's for five years to start and can be extended. The goal, of course, is to be able to accomplish the job and not have the nursery there. We're all gonna learn how long that truly does take but, temporary in that sense. And that's my next question is like, what does success look like for each reef to you? You know, I think we're all learning that as we go.

18:01 That's an open-ended question that most people are trying to figure out. I used to dive these reefs when the corals competed for space. And there's no such thing anymore. And so what truly does determine the time to move on, I think is, is a question that I'm not gonna be able to answer for many years to come. I would say that current, right now, we're having better and better success because we have a living laboratory that we're able to capitalize on that, every year that we go through these stressor events, whether a bleaching event, a disease, or whatever, gives us a coral that's even more resilient. And we're seeing that, and, the scientific community would probably gonna get upset with what I'm about to say, but the bleaching events that we've had in the past, now granted from a smaller, we have a smaller stock of corals that are alive out there, but the temperatures that we have this summer, if you were to lay those temperatures on 1995, we'd have a mass bleaching event already, and that's not happening.

19:06 And I know that because these temperatures didn't exist in '95, and the first bleaching event that I experienced had exactly these temperatures at this exact same time, and it was widespread, and that isn't happening today. And that tells me the corals that we're propagating today are from that resilient base, giving us corals that are more heat resistant. There's no question in my mind. Now, honestly, that's an- anecdotal. That is not a study. I'm not a scientist, but I know what I see, and everyone on my team gets to see this. so I'm confident that 10 years from now, with the rate at which we are putting these corals down, we'll be able to move on from the sites that we're currently restoring to a newer site.

19:56 Those corals that are now finally spawning, producing more coral, the sponges that we're putting down, keeping the water cleaner and clearer, all those things are important. The more you put down, the more places there are for corals to settle. We're hoping we're gonna find success in the grazer community or in the herbivore communities, which is imperative for us long-term success. So there's a lot of things that have to happen, but if you don't do something and you're not prepared, then it'll all fall apart. and we're finding those successes, there's no question. That's great. It's great to hear 'cause I think, as someone who's not in the water all the time, like yourself, like for me, you know, I live up in Canada, in Ontario.

20:37 Love reefs, love the ocean, talk about it all the time, but I'm not in the ocean to see the success. So when you hear people like, "Oh yeah, I'm in coral restoration," it's not a skepticism, but there's just like you're up against a lot. Obviously there's local disturbances, nutrient pollution, any kind of coastal development, those kind of things that can be controlled from a local level, which is great. Fishing, all that kind of stuff. But when you look at the temperatures and the bleaching events and the swings back and forth, I just covered a story on Great Barrier Reef where they've said that in the last sort of like 10 years, since 2017, they've seen a lot of swings back and forth. So years where the temperatures really reached maximums and they saw really low coverage, like record low coverages of coral cover.

21:22 And then on the next year, they get a storm or a bunch of storms, or the we haven't seen as much heat, and then they recover 36% and increase that much. And there's coral cover by like 36% instead of down in the teens. But they say they're seeing a lot more of these swings since 2017. So you almost wonder, like as a scientist, I look at it and I'm like, obviously restoration has to happen at this point. there's no doubt. But you worry about the heat and how that's going to affect these narrow ranged animals that are so critical to shoreline security and fisheries and diversity and tourism, and there's the social side and economic side.

22:03 So it's good to hear and like see these pictures. I'm looking at a picture on your About page of a coral fragments that are on like this bare rock. And you can see there's probably maybe 25, 30 of these frags that are put on. I don't know what the type of coral, and then you just see it. I don't know what it-- it doesn't say the timescale here, but you just see probably like maybe a couple years later, they've actually attached to themselves. They've actually connected and you know, it's one big colony now. And it's pretty much covering most of the rock. Looking at the first picture, seeing how separated they are and seeing how this growth, like, and knowing that we know these corals can be resilient if you just give them a break or you give them that extra chance to survive.

22:44 I do think there is something, I've covered it on the podcast before, where there's specific corals or even Zoanthidea that are more heat tolerant than others. And if we can start selecting for those a little bit more, that would be great. It's not great for necessarily the entire diversity of the species, but for the survival in the way that they're going right now, we need anything we can get. And I do think you're right, Mike. I don't think it's anecdotal. I don't know the studies offhand. I'm sure there have been studies that looking at how these corals that are still around today, still persisting since '95, how they've been able to adapt, or the fact that it's just natural selections. Those with Zoanthidea that can have that tolerance will actually persist.

23:24 And who knows? In 10, 20 years we might see a very different type of species that will persist through if we continue to grow. We have no idea what's gonna happen. But to see the recovery rates of this. There's another picture right underneath that where on the one hand it looks like a lot of gorgonians and maybe some algae, and it's very sparse. Not much coral, or not very big coral. They've just been planted. And two years later, these are Acropora, I believe. These coral clusters two years later, like they're huge. And these are slow-growing corals. Like they're not considered, like they're stony corals. They're not as wide-ranging as these soft corals, and they're huge. And you can see how much space they take up, and you can see how persistent they are and what they can do in terms of create these little habitats that are around it as they grow.

24:09 This is really big stuff. And I love the idea of having these restoration sites. And we'll get into the business side later of having like the divers paid to come out and do the work, which as a diver, for me, that would be so much fun. It's an experience that you don't normally get other than just watching, which is what we're designed to do for divers, right? We go around- Mmm … and we watch the beauty. Here, it's like I can leave and be like, "I helped restore or helped, you know, put corals back into the water." For me, that would be a kind of a cool thing. I think for a lot of divers who are very eco-conscious, especially over the last 10 years who've seen this kind of stuff, I think is really cool. Now, we're here also to talk about The Descent Into the Blue. How did this movie come up with the work that you're doing?

24:53 You've been doing this for about five and a half years. How did all the, the movie idea come up, and how did you get hooked up with Rory Feely on this, who's a director? And how did all this come play out? One of the people in the movie who does the filming was contacted by Rory, and then is a good friend, Fraser Nivens. And Fraser said, this is ideal for my friend Mike and ICARE." And he hooked us up directly with Rory, and based on what his vision was, and we had a… I remember having a lunch one day as I was learning about what Rory's goals were for the movie.

25:34 I said, "Well, our thoughts are aligned." To change the mindsets of people that know nothing about coralists, and they live in St. Louis. And their daily work has nothing to do with conservation, the ocean. They don't even think about it. They know almost nothing about it. But to bring home to them the importance of what is the most biodiverse ecosystem on our planet, bring it home to them. Open their eyes to what happens when we lose this, if we lose this. Where are we headed, and how it affects their lives. And that's what I've been saying all along, trying to correlate back many years ago. They said loss of the rainforest, and everyone understood, okay, the loss of the rainforest, what that means, and there was all sorts of push, and there still is, and well, there should be, and how that affects the health of our planet.

26:26 The coral reef does the same thing. It is incredibly vital to the health of our planet. And without that, we're stepping into the unknown, and we wanted to, and I want to bring that home to people. It doesn't matter where they are. They don't need to be just in Florida. Floridians, we tend to think about it more. The rest of the country, it's not something they're conscious of. That was the goal of the movie. Someone who watches that says, "Ah, holy crap. I get it. I understand it." And maybe the next time they're down in Florida and they're diving, they say, "I'm gonna look those guys up.

27:06 I wanna get involved." Or, "I'm a parent. I've got two kids that are entering into high school. They have no idea. Their heads are a mush. They're not sure what they're gonna do in their lives, but let me introduce them to a possible career path." Go, enjoy, learn, and maybe, STEM is gonna be your future. So there's all sorts of reasons. But bringing it to the unknown population through the country and the world, if we can, is what the goal was for the movie. And when we sat down for lunch, we both realized that we had the same objective. That's amazing. I think it's great for you to be so excited about what you've been able to accomplish, and Dr. Smith and the crew for the five and a half years that you've been doing this.

27:54 I think it's a wonderful aspect to say, "Hey, we've been able to do this, but we need to tell more people about it." I think that's where the message really comes because a lot of the stuff that's been done on restoration from a science perspective, a lot of the times that's kind of put up into the science journal, behind a paywall where nobody really gets access. And who wants, like, other than scientists, which, you know, it brings the credibility, but other than scientists, who really wants to read a science journal article with all this, the math and everything? And it doesn't really bring what you want home. To be able to show the effect is wonderful. I want to kind of just have you take people through sort of the ups and downs of the movie in terms of the content.

28:39 Can you just talk us through, like, the bit of the storyline, in terms of how everything is introduced, where the problem is, and then the solution that you're presenting at the end through iCare? I love the beginning of the movie it's animated, where the little girl is throwing the sea stars into the ocean, and she's confronted by the individual on the beach. You know, "What are you doing? You can't really change them." And she says, her response to the person and of course those that are gonna watch the movie, you'll get this immediately. But after she throws one sea star that's washed ashore and she's confronted by that individual saying, "You're wasting your time." She says, "Well, not for that one sea star it's not." And, that's kind of the beginnings of what we do.

29:23 That's why we do it. Because if you focus on the grand effort of restoring the world's reefs, you'll get overwhelmed really fast because it's an enormous task way beyond the scope of me and the entire restoration community. Mm-hmm. What you, what you have to narrow down is that focus on that one sea star or that one small little patch reef, or that one coral cluster that you just planted. And seeing that coral, those corals grow, that's what you need to stay focused on because that one cluster that you put down. I put down some brain corals and I come back and the brain corals we're working with these days are doing fabulous.

30:06 Eight months, 10 months later, they've all fused. A year later, they're likely gonna be spawning. And that's just one coral cluster. Well, that's how it starts. It doesn't start by restoring the entirety of the reef system. You can't do that. You gotta one coral at a time, one little area at a time. And that narrow focus allows you to then broaden your perspective on how we actually accomplish and create success. So that beginning of the movie really tells the story of what everyone is trying to accomplish. And if you keep that in mind as you're watching this, you won't get frustrated thinking, "God, this is an impossible task." But that every individual can make a difference if you want to.

30:58 And that's how we can turn a single sea star, if everyone is participating or every diver gets involved, now you can turn that one sea star into millions of sea stars being thrown back into the ocean. And that's kind of the way I look at the movie, and hoping that others will help take up that charge. It's a great way of approaching, what we're looking at in terms of coral restoration. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said planting small pieces of fragments may seem like it's impossible to repopulate a reef.

31:39 But the fact is, is as it grows, you mentioned the brain coral, as it grows, these brain corals grow, like, really large too. And as they grow and they reproduce, those gametes, larvae, whatever they are at the time, spread and get caught up somewhere downstream, or wherever the current brings it. And it settles either within that reef or away from that reef, and it can help build other reefs just by creating one brain coral. And the- Like replanting one gra- brain coral. And I think a lot of people would see the opposite of just planting these little frags. You know, we have this entire ocean where these reefs are dying.

32:20 How are these little frags really going to help repopulate, like a coral reef? Just that I think gives optimism or pessimism depending on how they look at it, to go out and build these reefs and really see how even if you're not building it to the full of what it was, like, in the trailer it talked about, I think it was your voice of how when 30, 40 years ago, it would be wall-to-wall corals. There wouldn't be many spaces between the corals. You couldn't see the rock that much. and that was like the reference point that we go to. But now people have a different reference point. If they dive now, this is what the reef looks like to them. Very bare, lot of spots, and So they think this is a healthy reef.

33:00 But if you talk to yourself or you talk to anybody who's been diving those reefs, you're like, "Well, hold on a second. No, no, no, no, no. Let me tell you. Sit down. Like, let me tell you and even show you , what it used to be." but I think that, that hope, that optimism that planting those little frags can really build into a bigger reef is such a good part of the story in there. I also like the community aspect of the movie, where there's a lot of different voices in this film. You hear from kids, you hear from adults, you hear from people who are from the Keys, you hear people who are coming in from the Keys, the divers, you see it in the movie. Did you want that to be a part of it, to see how diverse the community is that we're working to help out, and it's not just a few individuals?

33:42 Oh, yeah. Honestly, when we originally set this up, we wanted as many voices as possible. It's not just a movie for scientists to be looking at. Honestly, this is a movie for the general public to inspire, not necessarily for the scientific community. The scientific community might look at this through a different lens, which is fine, but it's really truly made for the general public to understand that there is hope, that we can turn this, and that success is up to us, and with our efforts, we will accomplish this goal. I think that's kind of the reason why there's so many different voices. But from the filmmakers that are in the movie, from Frasier or Steven Frink, from Ken Nedimyer or my co-founder, and then our interns, and then the Curious Minds kids who are very fresh looking at it from , a completely different perspective.

34:36 All of those aspects and all of those perspectives, I think give the viewer an insight into what we're doing, but also that there is truly hope and the outcome isn't inevitable. The death of the reef is not inevitable, and we can adjust what we do to have it survive and hopefully persist. What will be the coral of the future? I don't know. I don't know what's gonna be happening here 100 years from now or 1,000 years from now. But if we give up today and don't do anything, then we have the future baked in. Mm-hmm. That's not acceptable to me. What action do you hope the viewer will take after watching this movie?

35:22 It's kind of a hard question to answer. It depends on the, you know, where they are in their lives. Just for them to understand. We haven't got into the money side of it, but, you know, I come from that background. And I tell Dr. Smith all the time, "Listen, I don't know who I'm speaking to. I never know." And I don't take anyone for granted. I don't know who's gonna walk in the door or who I'm gonna talk to on a pod- who's listening on a podcast or in an interview. But everyone I look at in a, from that lens. As crass as that may sound, it's the way it is. We are dealing with a different environment for funding that most have never faced before on a federal level. At a state level in Florida, we're having a change of administration from the DeSantis administration, which has been supportive and incredibly supportive of the work that we do, to now we're stepping into an unknown where they have cut the, the-- They're not funding, for 2028.

36:21 And with that, the new administration, whoever that is, has to shape it the way they see it working. And that unknown is very uncomfortable for us and for everyone in Florida that's involved with reef restoration. So you see someone, you're talking to someone, I don't take it for granted. That may just spark an idea and say, " I wanna be a financial backer of what you're doing because not only are you rebuilding the reef, but you're at the forefront of rebuilding an economy and supporting economy at all levels, and involving the community of divers, not only in Florida, but the community of divers around the country and around the world who come and need that, and want that outlet to be a participant."

37:04 So, I always look at it from that perspective. As I said, it's below the way that most scientists think. That's not the way they wanna approach things. Mm-hmm. But that's just the reality. And for me, not being a scientist, I'm never afraid to ask people for stuff. I've never been afraid. So I always make it known. "Listen, if you like what we're doing, you think it's that important, here's what it takes to get behind what we're doing and we need support." So, that's the other side of the not so pretty side of what we have to do. Well, like I'll be honest, I think it's different. I think it is the pretty side of what you have to do. I think it's the future of what you have to do. I think this movie shows not only the level of effort, but like that it requires everybody, not just you, not just Dr. Smith, not just your team.

37:53 It requires a community of divers to come out and participate and help with the restoration. It requires funding whether it's through dive dues, like when they pay to dive with your outfit, or whether it be in some other form, whether it's like an adopt a coral kind of thing. There's the science side where scientists care about obviously doing good in the world, helping with the restoration by looking at how to make the process more efficient, looking at it from a physiological side, publishing, getting that credibility, getting people other eyes. So we have people all over the world working on it. Sharing that information from a scientific perspective, I think is a great idea.

38:33 But I always say that the business people are the solution makers. They're the ones who's like, they see a problem, whatever that is, they see a problem, and they deliver on it. Amazon saw a problem, like the guy from Amazon, he was like, at one point, he's like, "If I can get things to your door, that would be easier." It's changed the game. You're looking at reefs are declining. That's the problem. If I can get reefs back up, not only is that good for my business, but it's also good for the environment. I mean, we can talk about biodiversities, shoreline security, so many benefits to that. But it's also you care about the environment. It's you care about the world around you. You care about what it's gonna look like for the next generation of divers and so forth.

39:14 I think the money aspect has to come in because as you said, we can't always rely on funding depending on who's in power. Because there's some people that are in power that really wanna fund this, and it's expensive. It can be expensive. Restoration's always more expensive than preservation. But there's gonna be others who wanna cut everything, and they don't want have to do anything. Whether they care about the environment or not, they're just like, "This is too much money." It's a quote-unquote, "luxury," which obviously we can debate of whether that's legitimate or not, but we're not gonna get into that. That's not the purpose of this podcast. But, I think having the business solutions to come up with a way to get the money, but also give something of value to the people who are providing that money, I think is a really important part.

40:02 And without revealing kind of any secrets of like what you're doing in the future, 'cause I know it's a business and everything, but like- There are different ways. There's the DOP, the coral and things like that. You mentioned earlier they kinda all work. Can you just talk about some of the ways that people have been funding or getting people to fund it through either payment of some sort and not just a donation? Oh, yeah, absolutely. So, when we set up ICARE, the objective was to have every diver that walks through the door, whether they're participating or not If your dive costs you $100, there's gonna be $2 added on, and that's gonna go to the work.

40:43 I started raising money long before we put our first coral down, of course. And, I started it with two shops. We now have three different shops that are actively involved. And in all those years, no one has ever objected to that $2. And I also pacify those divers by letting them know that I personally take 2% of all my dive revenue, and I also donate that. When I think about the amount of money that I've personally put in, my wife's like, "Are you kidding me?" " That's a good chunk of our retirement." I said, "Yeah, but there's some things, you know, where this is just more important, than living a little bit more comfortably. It's more important that I put that money…" And it's a lot of money that we put in.

41:26 So those are a couple of things that we do. People obviously that participate in our coral outplants, they pay as well, an additional dollar to be an active participant. Our local community of divers will also pay that. It's not free to them. And so those are the, I don't like using this word generally speaking, but like a user fee of sorts. And I think one of the things that sets us apart is the perspective that I try to impart to my team and to those that are involved. And that is, we have a fiduciary responsibility to everyone that's a participant at any level and every level.

42:09 Whether it's just the $2 or it's $25, or whatever it is, or if it's a larger donation, we have a responsibility to do it the right way. And I think we convey that with how we conduct our work. And that allows us to get, I believe, the public more invested in what we do. So when we first started, we decided that we were gonna monitor 100% of all of our corals that we put down at, uh, intervals of one week, one month, 90 days, one, two, and three years. And that wasn't being done in the industry, at least in the Keys. And what was being done, without going into great detail, wasn't something that made sense to me, and I don't think it invited long-term success.

42:53 And we now, because of that approach, is now the standard that most of the practitioners are now adhering to. And we're the new guys. What do we know? And we're saying, "Well, listen, that didn't make sense to me to monitor 20% of what it is that you're putting down and not randomize that 20% to select what you want to report. Okay, you're not gonna give accurate information, and I can't do that and say that I have a fi- if I have a fiduciary responsibility to those folks that are giving me money, I'm doing wrong by those dollars. I can't look at them, and a lot of these people, a large number of them, I know personally because I've been in this business for so long.

43:35 These are people that believe in me, trust me. And I'm not doing right by them, that's not gonna sit well with me at all. So we start from that base and because of that, we have a very high success level. One year after outplant, our survival is 47% across all 17 species that we work with, and that's pretty high. That's pretty darn high. And you'd be surprised how few can actually report what their survival is. And we've been able to report that year after year after year. Despite the coral bleaching event of 2023, we're still reporting what our survival is. We're not hiding anything. And I think that invites those people to want to be involved and support the work that we do.

44:19 Again, being responsible financially to those investors is critical to them in trusting future dollars to us, coming back to do more work with us when they get to see the corals that they put down actually had survived So that's kind of way I see it financially. It's huge. It's such a huge part when you put it together. It's the service you're providing. It's not just the fact that you're saying, "Hey, I want money to do this work." You wanna show that you're doing it, but you're also doing it, that you're looking to increase the success rate as much as possible by monitoring that and being transparent about that. Obviously, not every transplant is gonna be successful.

45:00 Of course. There are natural things in the world and unnatural things in the world that could harm them, and that's part of living out in the ocean, for corals. But the fact is, is you're showing, again, it goes in the name, ICARE. You care about what's being put in there. And I think that's an important value. I think it goes probably to a lot of the divers and people who are listening to this who may not be divers, who will say, "I'm willing to put my money behind this guy because he's willing to give me reports. He's willing to give me the information to say, 'Hey, this actually worked,' or, 'We tried this method. It didn't work too well and this is why. And then we're gonna try another one.'" I think that's the science of it all, to be honest. Like, that's- Mm-hmm … you're doing science just by being transparent and monitoring.

45:42 Obviously, Dr. Smith is able to provide a lot of that, the methodology and the science and looking it up, and you're able to handle the business side. And I think it's a great partnership, and with the rest of your team and what you've been able to accomplish is absolutely amazing. And then having this movie that's coming out, Into The Descent Into the Blue, is such an important part of that, is to show the work that goes into it, to show people that there is a lot of work. So when you do put your money into it, you're putting the money into this hardworking thing that we have going on, and it's important to us that you see that. I think that's great. It's not an advertisement. It's just like this is the reality of the world we live in. We're here to find solutions. And you know, we're here to implement those solutions, which I think is very admirable.

46:22 So Mike, I wanna thank you for the work that you're doing. You know, not giving up, 'cause as have many people who would have. You and Dr. Smith and the team, and the team at your diving operation. Can you just name out your diving operation? Just so that people know if they wanna go down to the Keys in Islamorada. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's Key Dives. We're located in Islamorada. And the shop was voted number one in North America across all seven categories at Scuba Diving Magazine readers poll for 2025, and then it'll be announced the first week of September that we also were number one again across all seven categories. We swept every category for two years in a row. It's never happened before.

47:03 And the reason I believe we are number one is because of the work that we do. People understand, and I tell this to my divers. I said, "Listen, the more people that come here, the more I get to donate, so keep coming." I love that. I love that aspect. You come, and it's not that you're just coming to take part. Like you said, some people can take part. If you just wanna go diving, you can go diving. And you're enjoying yourself, and you're donating to a great cause. That's the beauty of it. That's what's nice, is you get to enjoy yourself while donating to a great cause. And then so you can come back over, and over, and over again, and you'll see a nice reef in the future. Mike, I wanna thank you so much for the work that you've put in, the work that your team put in, and Rory as well for the work that he's put into the film.

47:46 It is coming out September 1st, 2026 on PBS. Check it out your local listings. Go watch it. Let us know what you think of it. My socials are in the show notes, but also I'm gonna put, Mike, I'm gonna put your social media tags for not only the dive shop, but ICARE as well, and for the film. And yeah, thank you so much for coming on. This has been absolutely wonderful. Love to have you back on just to kinda see how things are progressing over the next year. We're heading into what they're calling an El Niño, but even maybe even a super El Niño, so I think it'll be interesting to see how these reefs and how these fragments are gonna handle themselves, good or bad, I think it would be good to talk about just to see what the work is. But I'd love to have you back on maybe sometime in the next year or so. It'd be a pleasure, Andrew.

48:26 Thank you so much for the time. I really appreciate it. You bet. You bet. No problem. Thank you, Mike, for not only coming on the podcast and joining us on the How to Protect the Ocean podcast today, but also for the work that you do. You and Kylie and your team are phenomenal. The divers that show up with part of your dive shop that go out and do the work, thank you so much. Thank you to everybody who's donated. Thank you to everybody who's participated in these types of projects, whether it's through ICARE or through another coral restoration thing. The one thing that really got me was the fact that if you plant some small fragments on a rock, they can connect, they can join up, they can become bigger, and then they start reproducing, and those reproduction things start moving around, and they start to grow in other places, which helps rebuild the reef.

49:10 This is the key, folks, is the optimism, the hope that once you put these reefs back in, in a place where they can grow and in a place where they can do well, then they will recover. They are resilient enough to recover. We're seeing it in the Great Barrier Reef when there are times when the temperature gets lower, the water's a little better, the pH is a little better, they will recover, really fast. It's just a matter of can we give them time and sustain that time so that they recover and become even more resilient? Coral restoration is a great example of that happening. It's a tough business. It's an expensive business. So if you're gonna donate, please do so. You can go to ICARE, icareaboutcoral.org. That's icareaboutcoral.org. I'll put the link in the show notes, and you can check that out.

49:52 And if you feel like you wanna donate, you can do so. But watch their stuff. Follow them on Instagram. Their handle is, let me just get it, ICARE About Coral. Surprise, surprise. Or it's @I.CARE is where they go. But if you search up ICARE About Coral, that's what you look for. You can watch videos. You can watch things that they do, cleanups and all that kinda stuff. It's all about the community, and it's really important to have a part of the community. Even if you live in Canada, if you live all across the world, it doesn't matter. You can take part, or you can take part into your own local coastal reef restoration. I think that's really important. Anyway, thank you again for Mike. I'm gonna put the link to the trailer as well as the links to ICARE About Coral. I wanna thank him for the work that he does, the team, the work that they do, and Kylie, of course.

50:35 And also just thank you for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I am your host, Andrew Lewin. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time, and happy conservation.