California Votes on 15 MPA Changes in October. Who Got a Say?

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California has a network of
marine protected areas that

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includes 124 protected areas.

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That's a lot.

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And you would think, like back when it was
established in 2013, that they would have

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this process that would help manage the
changes that happen on a regular basis.

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So, you can have changes in fish
populations, changes in climate

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change, changes in economics of the
state and how things are going, how

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people are using the different MPAs.

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And also looking at the science
and the data that goes into be

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like, is this MPA effective?

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Like, not all 124 are gonna
be super, uh, effective.

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Like, these are added as way…
Like, all the locations were done

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on purpose, but maybe some aren't
as effective as they thought, and

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they may have to move or expand or
shrink or whatever that might be.

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And you would think a lot of
work would be put into it.

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And when they talk about revisiting
it as part of an adaptive management

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process 10 years later in 2023,
you would think that they would

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include all of that information.

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But California didn't do that.

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And we have Anupa Asoka on, who is
the executive director of FishON, and

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she's here to talk about that process
and how it's failing not only the MPAs,

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but also the people who depend on those
protected areas and who want and are not

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getting the equitable chance to speak.

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We're gonna talk all about that on today's
episode of the How to Protect the Ocean

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podcast, 'cause that's what we do here.

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If you love this kind of information
about how processes work in the

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ocean and how marine protected areas
get better or sometimes maybe get

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worse or need to get better through
recommendations, this is not only the

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episode for you, but the podcast for you.

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Hit that follow button on
your favorite podcast app.

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and also I wanted to kind of acknowledge
that Anupa has an organizational podcast.

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A Fish On Air is what it's called.

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Fish On Air.

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I'm gonna put the link in the show
notes, and I'm also gonna put a link to,

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petitions that you can do if you hear
what she says and you hit on it and you're

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like, "I wanna take part in this process."

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Go in the show notes, check that out, hit
the link for those petitions and ways you

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can get to the next meeting in October.

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I believe she said it was October 13th.

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So, those are very important dates to
remember as you listen to this episode.

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Um, but here is Anupa Asoka from
FishON talking about the California

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Marine Protected Area process
and how it's failing the people

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as well as the environment when
it should be protecting them.

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We're gonna talk about that today.

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Enjoy the interview, and
I'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Anupa.

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Welcome back to the How to
Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about
California's marine protected areas?

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I was born ready.

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Thanks for having me back.

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Ah, I love it.

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MPAs have been my life for the last
I don't know how many years now.

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Oh, I can imagine.

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I can imagine.

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Look, we were talking just before,
uh, recording, and there's so

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much going on in this process.

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Uh, we're gonna cut through all of it,
and we're gonna really find out 'cause,

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like, I want the people listening to this
to really understand how this process

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could have gone and how it's going and
to really look at the unnecessary stuff

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that has been happening that is kinda
getting in the way of, you know, the

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process, the management process and
getting more effective marine protected

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areas and listening to the people.

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And I think there's a lot of serious
things that are happening in this

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process that we're gonna address today.

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Um, but before we get into all of that,
Anupa, like, last time I had you on, uh,

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you were in a very different role, with
marine protected areas, and we also talked

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about the WAPWell conference, with Angelo.

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But now you have an
organization called Fish On.

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So before we get into Fish On, just
let us know who you are, what you do,

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and then we'll talk a lot about this
wonderful organization you started.

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Yeah.

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I'm really excited to be back on
the show, so thanks for having me.

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You bet.

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I am a marine scientist.

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I actually studied oceanography
in graduate school.

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Um, but I've been working in the
science policy world for a long

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time, mostly with environmental NGOs.

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Had a little stint at
NOAA, in the past too.

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And I recently started, I guess
it's been two years now, I started

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this organization called Fish On.

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My first connection to the ocean was
fishing and, you know, working on the

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environmental side, I always found
myself up against the fishermen and

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never really felt represented by those
typical fishing interest organizations.

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So Fish On was sort of born to be that
middle ground and represent the more

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conservation-minded angler, spearfisher,
and take this, like, solutions-oriented

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voice for protecting our ocean.

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So I like to say that, I think a lot
of the fishing interest groups fight

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for fishermen and their rights, and
we are fishers fighting for our fish.

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I like that, it's very interesting.

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I've had a lot of conversations,
in my, position now at Pisces.

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We have a lot of clientele that are very
much, Indigenous-focused, and a lot of the

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times… they've got fishing backgrounds.

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Like, their identity is fishing,
from centuries and centuries ago.

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That's what they care about.

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They care about the fish.

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You know?

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Mm-hmm.

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whether it comes out good or bad
for them, they care about the fish.

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And I think that's a, I think it gets
lost a little bit, you know, for some

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communities where, you know, it's
all about catching the fish and what

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comes with that, especially nowadays
with all the social stuff and the

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bragging and all this kind of stuff.

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But, like, it is really
about the fish, isn't it?

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So, like, what are… Like, when, when,
you know, you, you talk about, you

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know, a community of fishermen and,
and, and fishers who are looking to

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look out for the fish, how do you do
that but balance with that recreational

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aspect of going out and fishing?

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'Cause I assume you're still fishing.

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I've seen pictures of you still, fishing.

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how do you balance that out essentially?

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Yeah.

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I mean, we really take a
science-forward approach, right?

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Like, there are real threats to the ocean.

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There are things that we need to
do, and as a fishing community,

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we also need to recognize that
we have an impact on the ocean.

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and there's a responsibility there.

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Like, if you are willing to take
from the ocean, you also have to

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be willing to give back to it.

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And that's the lens and sort
of the values that we bring to

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every issue that we approach.

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So that might look like, on the fishery
management side, you know, common

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sense approaches for the long-term
health of our fisheries, not just our

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short-term access opportunity right now.

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So maybe that's a closed season
for spawning aggregations of a

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fish that we like to catch, right?

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So we close it down for maybe a
month out of the year so those fish

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can reproduce and we can fish on.

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I like that.

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Um- I love it.

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I love it.

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Yeah.

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No,

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that's- And yeah, we also work on issues
like clean water, um, supporting our

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partners at the Waterkeeper network,
um, and bringing the fishing community

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in to support some of the, that work.

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marine protected areas, which I see as
an opportunity to restore important-

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Mm-hmm … habitat and ecosystems.

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We work on environmental justice
and equitable access issues.

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yeah.

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So you're looking at the whole gamut.

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Like it's not- Mm-hmm … just about
fish, but it i- I mean, it is about

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fish, but there's a lot that goes into
ensuring that like the fish that you're

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fishing are going to be sustainable.

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We're looking at habitat, we're
looking at rights holders.

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Yeah.

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We're looking at people who have
a say, access to beaches and

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areas to fish, all this stuff.

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So it's really the entire ecosystem
underwater and above water, but

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it really is about the fish.

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Like, that's all that's connected.

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And I think it's interesting because
a while back, uh, when I was working

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for Fisheries and Oceans Canada, they
changed our fish habitat law, uh, or

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Fisheries Act, and what they did is
they took out the habitat protection

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when we look at fisheries, and they only
looked at the established fisheries, so

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recreational, Aboriginal, and commercial.

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And then that government
left, we put it back.

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Long story in there, but that was
what they were concerned about.

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But you know, the whole thing is
the entire ecosystem above water and

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below water, which is so important.

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So I'm so happy that,
you guys are doing that.

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now when you started this, you said
you started about two years ago.

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I'm sure that a lot has
happened in, in those two years.

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You and I have discussed
it, a couple of times.

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But, you know, like, how do
you, as someone who's, uh, you

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know, marine science background,
fishing background, You obviously,

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you've been working in policy.

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How do you start a brand new organization
and become part of this community of

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other NGOs as well as, uh, I guess
fishing organizations, and kind of

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bring it together with this approach?

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Like, is your approach from your
organization and your standpoint a unique

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approach within the area that you're
working with, like within, essentially

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it's, I guess it's California, right?

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Yeah.

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Um, we do a little bit of federal
level work, but as you know,

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progress is hard to come by- Right

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uh, at the moment.

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So we're doing our best to support
defense and protecting what we have

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protected- … to the best that we can.

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but yeah, I mean, you know, I've been
doing this work for almost 20 years now.

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Yeah.

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Uh, so I have a pretty solid network.

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People know me.

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They know what I stand for, both
from, fishing communities that I'm

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a part of or that I've interacted
with, as well as the science and

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kind of environmental NGO side.

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So I don't know.

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I feel like everything sort of built up
to me starting this organization, and

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I feel like I was the person to try to
make this happen, 'cause there really

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is no other fishing interest group like
us- particularly on the West Coast.

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I would say there's the American Saltwater
Guides Association, ASGA, yeah, on

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the East Coast that kind of similarly
takes a precautionary approach to- Yeah

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how we manage fisheries.

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but there's this real opportunity
here in California with our Marine

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Protected Area network, that a lot of
other states don't have, that I think

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is a really cool kind of complementary
approach to protecting the ocean-

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Mm-hmm

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…
alongside fishery management.

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that reaches everyone, not just
the fishing community, right?

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I'm also a surfer.

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I like to dive and experience
the ocean in other ways.

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And, most of our ocean laws and how
we manage the ocean are related to

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fisheries, and that's less than 1%
of things that live in the ocean.

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Yeah.

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Like, that's what we're tracking, that's
what we're managing, and we're expecting

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everything's gonna be fine otherwise.

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There's a lot that we're still
learning about the ocean.

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Oh, yeah.

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And, so many threats out there
that marine protected areas become

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that insurance policy, which I'm
sure you've talked about before.

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Oh,

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yeah.

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Just to make sure, even if we get
fishery management wrong, there's at

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least some habitat that is hopefully
protecting those things that people like

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to catch or rely on the ocean for, so.

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And I mean, like, with everything else
going on and climate change really

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starting to drastically affect communities
underwater, habitats underwater,

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above water as well, of course.

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But, these areas need to become
more resilient, and the protected

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areas system established in
California has that opportunity to

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do that, as well as other places.

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And it has, in a lot of other places.

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We know that if we take away certain
human extractive activities or

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human disturbance activities, With
everything else going on, we know that

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these systems can, recover, right?

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Uh, you've worked in marine protected
areas for years and, and you know this.

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And I love the fact that when you started
the organization, you mentioned that

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you've been building this network for
a long time, and maybe not with this

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purpose in mind at the beginning when
you started to build this network-

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Yeah … as you worked through it.

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But, like, I remember, too, you, were
on the board for Surfrider one point.

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00:11:50,575 --> 00:11:54,505
Uh, I'm not sure if that's still
the case, but, like, that connection

232
00:11:54,545 --> 00:11:56,515
is huge, especially in California.

233
00:11:56,875 --> 00:12:01,025
Having all the other connections, like
working with NRDC and even with contacts

234
00:12:01,045 --> 00:12:02,645
in Still a No and stuff like that.

235
00:12:02,645 --> 00:12:07,165
Like, you have that ability, you
have that name within there so that

236
00:12:07,175 --> 00:12:09,705
starting this organization, people
must have been like, "Okay, cool.

237
00:12:09,715 --> 00:12:12,675
Like, this, you know, like,
uh, like Anupa's got it down.

238
00:12:12,685 --> 00:12:14,305
Like, we know what she can do.

239
00:12:14,305 --> 00:12:16,885
We know what she's gonna look out
for." And I think that probably

240
00:12:16,885 --> 00:12:19,975
allows you to partner with a lot
of people and organizations that,

241
00:12:20,545 --> 00:12:22,835
you know, may not have thought
about partnering with anybody else.

242
00:12:22,835 --> 00:12:26,715
But now that you come in with this
unique but also needed, you know,

243
00:12:26,715 --> 00:12:30,805
approach- Mm-hmm it works out pretty
well, which I think is fantastic.

244
00:12:30,805 --> 00:12:33,315
I don't-- You know, a lot of people,
I think, come out of school and

245
00:12:33,315 --> 00:12:35,465
they just start an organization.

246
00:12:35,575 --> 00:12:38,015
Makes it a lot more difficult to start.

247
00:12:38,415 --> 00:12:41,845
But once you have that experience and
you have the lay of the land, or the

248
00:12:41,845 --> 00:12:45,015
water in this case, you can really
see where you can have an impact.

249
00:12:45,115 --> 00:12:51,335
Uh, that's still, like, a pretty big risk
in your career to start an organization.

250
00:12:51,505 --> 00:12:53,785
Not an easy thing to do,
especially these days.

251
00:12:54,215 --> 00:12:56,735
Can I ask, like, I know this is a
little personal, so if you don't feel

252
00:12:56,735 --> 00:12:57,775
comfortable doing it, it's all right.

253
00:12:57,775 --> 00:13:03,175
How has that been for you in terms
of making sure things get funded, you

254
00:13:03,175 --> 00:13:04,905
know, salary paid, things like that?

255
00:13:04,905 --> 00:13:07,785
Like, the organization continue
to run in these two years.

256
00:13:08,205 --> 00:13:12,385
This is a very important time for
you and your organization, and get

257
00:13:12,385 --> 00:13:14,255
the stuff done to have that impact.

258
00:13:14,265 --> 00:13:16,355
How have you found that transition?

259
00:13:16,365 --> 00:13:19,965
'Cause there are a lot of people who are
thinking about that transition as well.

260
00:13:19,975 --> 00:13:23,215
How have you found that transition for
yourself at this point in your career?

261
00:13:23,985 --> 00:13:24,395
Yeah.

262
00:13:24,445 --> 00:13:28,975
I'm really lucky in that I had a great
champion and sort of mentor in this,

263
00:13:29,005 --> 00:13:31,345
which is, Marce, who founded Azul.

264
00:13:31,945 --> 00:13:32,265
Yes.

265
00:13:32,285 --> 00:13:32,605
I guess-

266
00:13:32,655 --> 00:13:33,065
Yes

267
00:13:33,165 --> 00:13:36,455
they just celebrated their
quinceañera, so it's been 15 years.

268
00:13:36,635 --> 00:13:36,905
Nice.

269
00:13:36,945 --> 00:13:41,255
So I was able to, get some lessons
learned from her, and one of her

270
00:13:41,265 --> 00:13:45,045
biggest pieces of advice was to
start, as a project of a fiscal

271
00:13:45,045 --> 00:13:47,095
sponsor and to find a fiscal sponsor.

272
00:13:47,545 --> 00:13:51,119
So, a lot of people think that,
like, that's who funds me, but

273
00:13:51,129 --> 00:13:52,709
actually it's the other way around.

274
00:13:52,769 --> 00:13:56,149
I pay them, so all the grants that
I bring in, a certain percentage

275
00:13:56,179 --> 00:13:59,539
goes to Earth Island Institute as
our- Mm-hmm … fiscal sponsor.

276
00:13:59,539 --> 00:13:59,909
Yep.

277
00:13:59,909 --> 00:14:03,999
And they're, like, our backbone
501[c][3] that we operate under.

278
00:14:04,009 --> 00:14:08,189
So they take care of, like, filing
with the IRS and all of this

279
00:14:08,189 --> 00:14:11,699
accounting stuff that I don't
need to, I mean, I still- It's-

280
00:14:11,709 --> 00:14:14,439
track obviously, but- Of course
… like, it just takes that, some of

281
00:14:14,439 --> 00:14:16,749
that- Oh … administrative burden-
Huge burden … off my plate.

282
00:14:16,969 --> 00:14:17,849
Huge.

283
00:14:17,849 --> 00:14:18,239
Yeah.

284
00:14:18,239 --> 00:14:19,899
Earth Island Institute- Yeah … has
been around for years, too.

285
00:14:19,899 --> 00:14:22,939
They've been a very well-established,
working on a lot of different pl-

286
00:14:23,019 --> 00:14:25,269
I think Plastic Pollution Coalition
has been involved with them.

287
00:14:25,269 --> 00:14:25,369
Mm-hmm.

288
00:14:25,389 --> 00:14:28,569
They've they sponsor a lot of, I guess
fiscally sponsor a lot of organizations

289
00:14:28,569 --> 00:14:29,619
in the US- Yeah … and beyond.

290
00:14:29,619 --> 00:14:29,899
Yeah.

291
00:14:30,219 --> 00:14:30,549
Good job.

292
00:14:30,549 --> 00:14:34,969
So that has been super helpful in
allowing me to, focus on the work

293
00:14:34,989 --> 00:14:39,089
that I know how to do and I know how
to do well, um, and then have someone

294
00:14:39,089 --> 00:14:43,499
to lean on for the administrative
piece of running the organization.

295
00:14:43,819 --> 00:14:47,279
So that's been- Love it … yeah- Love
it … an easy way to get started.

296
00:14:47,809 --> 00:14:48,659
I love it.

297
00:14:48,669 --> 00:14:49,699
That's fantastic.

298
00:14:49,939 --> 00:14:50,279
okay.

299
00:14:50,339 --> 00:14:53,199
Let's talk about the work
that you do with FishOn.

300
00:14:53,419 --> 00:14:57,149
In particular, we're focusing on
protected areas, in California.

301
00:14:57,149 --> 00:14:59,799
You mentioned the network of
protected areas that have

302
00:14:59,799 --> 00:15:00,949
been going on for California.

303
00:15:01,299 --> 00:15:04,509
Can you just kinda give us the
context, like a bit of the background?

304
00:15:04,509 --> 00:15:07,499
I know it's a long story 'cause, like,
it's been going on for years, but can

305
00:15:07,509 --> 00:15:11,042
you guys give the, the background of
when it was established, and then what

306
00:15:11,052 --> 00:15:12,742
happened even after it was established?

307
00:15:12,752 --> 00:15:17,012
'Cause there's some, parties, rights
holders, that were not necessarily happy

308
00:15:17,332 --> 00:15:19,322
what they say, left out of the situation.

309
00:15:19,342 --> 00:15:22,562
I don't know the full story here, but
can you kinda enlighten us in terms of

310
00:15:23,082 --> 00:15:25,132
the context of, what we're at right now?

311
00:15:26,094 --> 00:15:26,474
Yeah.

312
00:15:26,494 --> 00:15:30,364
So California has a network
of marine protected areas.

313
00:15:30,364 --> 00:15:37,044
There are 124 of them, which were, I
think, officially established around 2012.

314
00:15:37,644 --> 00:15:39,694
And there was a big
process that went into it.

315
00:15:39,744 --> 00:15:42,547
there were some, like, longstanding,
like, they were called marine

316
00:15:42,547 --> 00:15:46,687
life refuges, I think, back in the
day, sporadically here and there.

317
00:15:47,107 --> 00:15:50,967
but they did this big stakeholder process.

318
00:15:51,147 --> 00:15:54,837
They brought in environmental
groups, fishing groups, and had these

319
00:15:54,867 --> 00:16:00,097
committees, and it was this long,
drawn-out negotiation process to

320
00:16:00,147 --> 00:16:04,247
design and establish a network of MPAs.

321
00:16:04,257 --> 00:16:09,887
So they're designed to be connected and
kind of work together to protect species

322
00:16:09,887 --> 00:16:12,077
and habitats along the California coast.

323
00:16:13,037 --> 00:16:17,357
What was written into the law to establish
that network is also this thing called

324
00:16:17,397 --> 00:16:23,147
adaptive management, which is really smart
because as threats change, as our needs

325
00:16:23,147 --> 00:16:28,607
change as a community, and as people's
values change and evolve over time, it

326
00:16:28,607 --> 00:16:33,137
gives us the opportunity to make changes
to that network so that it continues

327
00:16:33,137 --> 00:16:36,267
to serve people and planet, in theory.

328
00:16:37,227 --> 00:16:39,057
Um, ongoing.

329
00:16:39,377 --> 00:16:43,847
So we reached this 10-year mark, and
the state, they've been doing tons of

330
00:16:43,847 --> 00:16:48,487
science and monitoring, and it was this
opportunity for adaptive management.

331
00:16:48,487 --> 00:16:53,767
They called it a decadal management review
after 10 years of having these MPAs.

332
00:16:54,497 --> 00:16:59,657
So I think many of us saw it as an
opportunity like, "Gosh, we didn't

333
00:16:59,657 --> 00:17:03,587
think about climate change when
we designed this network." we also

334
00:17:03,587 --> 00:17:07,797
have learned a lot about, like,
social justice in the last 10 years.

335
00:17:07,847 --> 00:17:13,707
there are, like, best practices, and
we know more about the communities

336
00:17:13,707 --> 00:17:17,677
that were left out and how public
process can be exclusionary.

337
00:17:18,307 --> 00:17:21,307
So much, right, has been
learned on that front.

338
00:17:21,657 --> 00:17:25,807
So this was a real opportunity to look at
the network and say, like, "Okay, are we

339
00:17:26,047 --> 00:17:28,157
going to be okay through climate change?

340
00:17:28,457 --> 00:17:32,387
And who was left out, and what are
their needs, and how can we make sure

341
00:17:32,387 --> 00:17:37,187
that our network is serving them?"
So I would've liked for the state to

342
00:17:37,187 --> 00:17:42,007
have thought about that holistically,
taken all of the science and monitoring

343
00:17:42,007 --> 00:17:44,947
that they've done over the years
and said, "Okay, here are the gaps.

344
00:17:45,527 --> 00:17:48,407
Here's what we're gonna propose
for maybe some minor tweaks.

345
00:17:48,427 --> 00:17:52,337
Maybe it's like a border that's
easier to notice or lines up with

346
00:17:52,337 --> 00:17:57,827
some landmark, on the coast." but
also like, "Hey, we know more about,

347
00:17:57,967 --> 00:18:00,487
current modeling along the coast.

348
00:18:00,517 --> 00:18:07,677
This is a big gap in our network." Or the
entire urban area of Los Angeles, which

349
00:18:07,677 --> 00:18:13,687
is like a third of the state's population,
it's really hard to get to all the MPAs,

350
00:18:13,727 --> 00:18:15,847
and one of them is actually near me.

351
00:18:16,337 --> 00:18:20,547
Because of land subsidence issues, You
can't even get down to it from shore.

352
00:18:21,127 --> 00:18:21,457
Really?

353
00:18:21,457 --> 00:18:24,707
And they just closed the one to
the north, because of erosion.

354
00:18:24,767 --> 00:18:26,717
It was too dangerous to get down, right?

355
00:18:26,717 --> 00:18:28,367
So that was another opportunity.

356
00:18:28,367 --> 00:18:33,107
Like, how can we make sure that
this big urban center can experience

357
00:18:33,107 --> 00:18:34,917
one of our state parks underwater?

358
00:18:35,377 --> 00:18:35,507
Mm-hmm.

359
00:18:35,517 --> 00:18:37,507
Um, the state didn't do that.

360
00:18:37,647 --> 00:18:41,657
Instead, they put the onus on
the public and public interest

361
00:18:41,657 --> 00:18:45,497
organizations to submit petitions
for changes that they wanted.

362
00:18:46,267 --> 00:18:50,217
And what came out of that, we have, you
know, some environmental groups really,

363
00:18:50,837 --> 00:18:52,687
did their best to look at the science.

364
00:18:52,877 --> 00:18:54,907
we're losing kelp forests along the state.

365
00:18:54,907 --> 00:18:59,927
So there's a pretty holistic petition
that looks at persistent kelp forests

366
00:19:00,417 --> 00:19:05,437
and proposes some new MPAs, proposes
strengthening or expanding existing MPAs

367
00:19:05,707 --> 00:19:09,577
to make sure that those areas that have
been mapped as persistent and resilient

368
00:19:09,607 --> 00:19:12,897
kelp forests, are part of the MPA network.

369
00:19:13,267 --> 00:19:19,987
Um, then there are other petitions from,
fishing industry groups to open reserves

370
00:19:20,017 --> 00:19:25,317
and other MPAs to their commercial
activity, whether it's diving, or

371
00:19:25,537 --> 00:19:32,337
commercial harvest of sea urchins to,
pelagic fishing in some of our largest

372
00:19:32,367 --> 00:19:35,797
and longest, lived marine reserves.

373
00:19:35,917 --> 00:19:42,327
So it runs the gamut, and we've been
going through this process for… I think

374
00:19:42,327 --> 00:19:44,707
petitions were submitted back in 2023.

375
00:19:44,737 --> 00:19:46,747
This has been really drawn out.

376
00:19:47,027 --> 00:19:47,427
Yeah.

377
00:19:47,527 --> 00:19:52,407
our Department of Fish and Wildlife
came back with their recommendations.

378
00:19:52,817 --> 00:19:55,614
they didn't really look at climate change.

379
00:19:56,054 --> 00:20:01,864
They flat out didn't answer the questions
that they were supposed to or evaluate

380
00:20:01,884 --> 00:20:05,634
the petitions based on environmental
justice and equitable access.

381
00:20:06,114 --> 00:20:10,004
They just said, "We don't know how
to do it, so we're not going to." me,

382
00:20:10,024 --> 00:20:15,254
myself, along with a lot of other people
caused a stink, and they finally did it.

383
00:20:15,764 --> 00:20:17,404
yeah, it's been quite a slog.

384
00:20:17,484 --> 00:20:22,204
And then recently, another state agency
weighed in, trying to at least answer

385
00:20:22,224 --> 00:20:26,914
the climate question and support, uh,
some of the tribally led petitions.

386
00:20:27,414 --> 00:20:31,404
And we're finally gonna reach the
start of a decision point next month.

387
00:20:32,074 --> 00:20:32,824
That was a lot.

388
00:20:32,834 --> 00:20:32,884
Okay.

389
00:20:34,044 --> 00:20:39,357
It's, it's a lot, and obviously not good
news in the way that this was managed.

390
00:20:39,407 --> 00:20:44,685
And very what it seems to me As someone
who doesn't live in California, doesn't

391
00:20:44,685 --> 00:20:49,729
live in the US, California always
seems to be like the lead in especially

392
00:20:50,279 --> 00:20:55,659
environmental, projects, whether it
be renewable energy, whether it be

393
00:20:55,659 --> 00:21:02,349
making sure that the coastline is not
subjected to oil and gas platforms and,

394
00:21:02,349 --> 00:21:04,489
so forth, and it's renewable energy.

395
00:21:05,099 --> 00:21:07,309
We know Californians love their coastline.

396
00:21:07,309 --> 00:21:08,909
They love to use the water.

397
00:21:08,929 --> 00:21:10,189
They love to fish.

398
00:21:10,219 --> 00:21:12,389
Like, there's commercial
and recreational fishing.

399
00:21:12,399 --> 00:21:16,259
There's, all these different types
of outdoor sports: scuba diving,

400
00:21:16,259 --> 00:21:21,449
snorkeling, free diving, kayaking,
and just boating in general.

401
00:21:21,759 --> 00:21:25,225
I just did an interview with, a guy
who owns like, one of the largest,

402
00:21:25,425 --> 00:21:29,145
uh, boat dealers, and he's now
getting into electric motors and

403
00:21:29,275 --> 00:21:31,335
loving it, and people are loving it.

404
00:21:32,105 --> 00:21:35,875
And the government of California has
been the lead in a lot of this, like,

405
00:21:35,875 --> 00:21:38,545
encouraging this type of behavior.

406
00:21:38,545 --> 00:21:41,955
And, you know, it's gotten expensive
to live there with a lot of the,

407
00:21:41,955 --> 00:21:43,145
programs that have come out.

408
00:21:43,165 --> 00:21:49,735
But this is very surprising too, all the
work that they went through to establish

409
00:21:49,735 --> 00:21:51,245
these networks of marine protected area.

410
00:21:51,245 --> 00:21:53,175
You said over, what was it, 120 something?

411
00:21:53,215 --> 00:21:54,705
Did you say a hundred and how many?

412
00:21:55,555 --> 00:21:57,565
124. Hundred and twenty-four MPAs.

413
00:21:57,725 --> 00:22:00,155
and these are all like inter--
Well, most of them are like

414
00:22:00,165 --> 00:22:03,565
interconnected, like there's
biological connectivity within them.

415
00:22:03,565 --> 00:22:07,135
That means larval dispersal and everything
that has been accounted for, and there's

416
00:22:07,135 --> 00:22:08,975
so much work that's been put into it.

417
00:22:09,735 --> 00:22:12,195
And I remember when this was
established and covering it on the

418
00:22:12,205 --> 00:22:17,095
podcast, where it's like the adaptive
management point, part is such an

419
00:22:17,095 --> 00:22:21,535
important aspect into the longevity
of the effectiveness of these MPAs.

420
00:22:21,565 --> 00:22:25,305
'Cause, like when you first put
an MPA together, you don't know.

421
00:22:25,315 --> 00:22:27,025
Like, you think you've
done the right thing.

422
00:22:27,025 --> 00:22:29,775
You've put all the science, you've
got all as much feedback as you can.

423
00:22:30,495 --> 00:22:33,055
It's not a perfect process,
but, you know, you do your best.

424
00:22:33,055 --> 00:22:37,405
But in 10 years, you can kinda look it's
like, " are all the MPAs working out well?

425
00:22:37,805 --> 00:22:38,475
Are they not?

426
00:22:38,505 --> 00:22:39,545
And what's that problem?

427
00:22:39,585 --> 00:22:40,365
Is it on us?

428
00:22:40,385 --> 00:22:44,125
Is it maybe climate change?" Is like,
I've read the science that certain

429
00:22:44,125 --> 00:22:47,285
MPAs may not do well because it's
more affected by climate change, and

430
00:22:47,285 --> 00:22:52,395
that might be a way of looking at new
areas that might be better to protect,

431
00:22:52,395 --> 00:22:53,765
that more effective to protect.

432
00:22:53,765 --> 00:22:56,665
So there's a lot of stuff that
goes in on here, and it had such

433
00:22:56,665 --> 00:23:01,479
an opportunity to like incorporate
all, as you mentioned, holistically

434
00:23:01,489 --> 00:23:03,679
incorporate all this stuff into there.

435
00:23:04,269 --> 00:23:08,669
And they just like failed on it and
put it on the people to say, "What

436
00:23:08,679 --> 00:23:13,277
problem are you having?" Were people
just surprised at this approach?

437
00:23:13,277 --> 00:23:16,953
Cause, like, I'm sure it's written in
the original documents, like, this is

438
00:23:16,953 --> 00:23:18,433
how adaptive management is gonna go.

439
00:23:18,543 --> 00:23:21,000
Was this, like the original plan for it?

440
00:23:21,030 --> 00:23:22,810
Like, just getting the
feedback and that's it?

441
00:23:23,630 --> 00:23:29,890
I don't think that there was a really
good, I don't know, plan or framework for

442
00:23:29,890 --> 00:23:32,140
what adaptive management would look like.

443
00:23:32,150 --> 00:23:32,180
Mm-hmm.

444
00:23:32,190 --> 00:23:35,030
And that might be part
of the problem, right?

445
00:23:35,060 --> 00:23:35,460
Right.

446
00:23:35,490 --> 00:23:35,860
Right.

447
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,290
We've been figuring it out.

448
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,910
I mean, I've watched commissioners,
the body that will ultimately make

449
00:23:41,930 --> 00:23:47,210
the decision here, debate in real
time on how the process should go.

450
00:23:47,420 --> 00:23:47,730
Hmm.

451
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:52,740
And I think that's been part of why
it's been so, drug out for this long.

452
00:23:52,740 --> 00:23:53,100
Yeah.

453
00:23:53,110 --> 00:23:53,800
Dragged out.

454
00:23:54,370 --> 00:23:54,720
Um-

455
00:23:54,750 --> 00:23:55,140
Gotcha.

456
00:23:55,390 --> 00:23:55,830
Yeah.

457
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,770
so hopefully at the end of this, right,
there are some really good lessons

458
00:23:59,770 --> 00:24:04,900
learned and- Yeah … I don't know, a
working group, something pulled together

459
00:24:04,910 --> 00:24:08,820
for- Right … how we can do adaptive
management more effectively and really

460
00:24:08,830 --> 00:24:13,100
bring in the voices that continue to
be left out of these conversations.

461
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,720
Um- Absolutely … yeah, I think, I've
written about this on our blog, but the

462
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,710
Department of Fish and Wildlife is really
stuck in the past, and staff at the

463
00:24:22,710 --> 00:24:24,990
commission too, and it's been really hard.

464
00:24:25,330 --> 00:24:29,770
I feel like I spent a lot of my public
testimony just, like, fighting for my

465
00:24:29,770 --> 00:24:34,250
right to exist and have a voice in the
space, and for other communities of color

466
00:24:34,250 --> 00:24:36,430
to be able to participate in those spaces.

467
00:24:36,970 --> 00:24:43,200
and hopefully slowly breaking through and
making progress on that front because I

468
00:24:43,210 --> 00:24:49,260
think from a procedural equity kind of
lens on all of this, the state has not

469
00:24:49,270 --> 00:24:55,270
done a good job at c- creating safe spaces
and making sure, there was opportunity for

470
00:24:55,270 --> 00:24:57,350
people to feel welcome and to feel heard.

471
00:24:58,060 --> 00:24:59,680
Um- Right … voices were minimized.

472
00:24:59,690 --> 00:25:03,350
Students have been told that, I
don't wanna hear how much you love

473
00:25:03,370 --> 00:25:08,050
the ocean." And you know, certain
fishermen's voices elevated over

474
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:10,700
others because they profit off of it.

475
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,230
And I think that mentality
really needs to shift if we're

476
00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:16,340
gonna make meaningful progress.

477
00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:21,820
Let me ask you this, 'cause it seems
like a lot of this has come out

478
00:25:21,900 --> 00:25:26,930
of not only the Fish and Wildlife,
which still again is surprising that

479
00:25:26,930 --> 00:25:28,670
they're taking this type of approach.

480
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:30,820
You mentioned the commissioners
and the commission.

481
00:25:30,820 --> 00:25:32,060
So how is that established?

482
00:25:32,060 --> 00:25:36,200
Is that made up of people within
Fish and Wildlife to manage this,

483
00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:39,320
or is this, like, appointed people
or do they have to apply to it?

484
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,080
what are their backgrounds essentially
in how this commission works?

485
00:25:42,430 --> 00:25:42,870
Yeah.

486
00:25:43,150 --> 00:25:46,760
So there are five state fish and
game commissioners, and they're

487
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,470
appointed by a governor, and I
think confirmed by the Senate.

488
00:25:51,070 --> 00:25:53,690
it is essentially a volunteer role.

489
00:25:53,710 --> 00:25:56,050
They all have separate full-time jobs.

490
00:25:56,360 --> 00:26:00,150
so it's a lot to ask of someone-
It's a lot to ask … to be on

491
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,470
the Fish and Game Commission.

492
00:26:01,470 --> 00:26:07,390
And there's a certain level of, stability
that you have to have in your other

493
00:26:07,430 --> 00:26:11,890
work and personal life- Of course … to
be able to be on that commission.

494
00:26:12,550 --> 00:26:16,990
So, the makeup will change based
on whatever the administration

495
00:26:16,990 --> 00:26:20,860
is and whose term is up and who
gets to be appointed by who.

496
00:26:21,430 --> 00:26:21,910
Okay.

497
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,700
So it's like- But- … so it's
volunteer, but they're appointed.

498
00:26:25,190 --> 00:26:25,877
Mm-hmm.

499
00:26:25,877 --> 00:26:29,963
I don't wanna n- name and shame, but what
are their, like what are their other jobs?

500
00:26:29,963 --> 00:26:36,127
Like, do they have experience in- MPA
management or a background 'cause like,

501
00:26:36,127 --> 00:26:41,437
to be honest, like I would like to see
somebody on the commission that has

502
00:26:41,437 --> 00:26:44,227
somebody, and not to say that it's you,
but has somebody with your background.

503
00:26:44,237 --> 00:26:49,027
At least one to have that science
and policy background to understand

504
00:26:49,767 --> 00:26:54,756
the process and to stay as you
have for the last 20 years to stay

505
00:26:54,926 --> 00:26:59,176
into the process of how things
have changed with MPA management.

506
00:26:59,546 --> 00:27:02,179
Things that you've already, mentioned,
like how climate change is gonna

507
00:27:02,179 --> 00:27:06,429
affect social justice and equity, how
that's gonna affect and how we approach

508
00:27:06,429 --> 00:27:07,729
things in a lot of different ways.

509
00:27:07,939 --> 00:27:13,479
and inclusion in different communities
and looking at a very much, approach, and

510
00:27:13,479 --> 00:27:16,459
I feel like this is happen- I feel like
this is happening worldwide, but this is

511
00:27:16,459 --> 00:27:17,579
kind of disappointing that this is not.

512
00:27:17,579 --> 00:27:22,349
But looking at, uh, how indigenous
communities manage, have traditionally

513
00:27:22,349 --> 00:27:29,959
managed their land and using that,
um, philosophy in how we manage the

514
00:27:29,959 --> 00:27:35,583
rest of the land as well, because it's
very equitable in terms of balancing

515
00:27:35,583 --> 00:27:39,663
e-ec-economics and environment in
terms of how we manage everything.

516
00:27:40,473 --> 00:27:43,119
So I guess, like, going back to
my original question is, what

517
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,599
are their backgrounds, like
professionally of the commissioners?

518
00:27:46,669 --> 00:27:47,549
What do they tend to be?

519
00:27:47,549 --> 00:27:50,119
Are they business owners, things
like that, or are they scientists?

520
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:51,299
It's a, it's a mix.

521
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,029
Yeah it's important to remember
that, I go for the ocean day.

522
00:27:55,919 --> 00:27:59,349
Um, but they also manage,
like, land or have to deal with

523
00:27:59,349 --> 00:28:01,409
land wildlife issues as well.

524
00:28:01,469 --> 00:28:01,839
Gotcha.

525
00:28:01,869 --> 00:28:02,139
You know?

526
00:28:02,159 --> 00:28:02,449
So-

527
00:28:02,459 --> 00:28:02,489
Okay.

528
00:28:02,529 --> 00:28:04,849
'Cause fisheries and game, like
it's- Mm-hmm … it's both.

529
00:28:04,899 --> 00:28:05,549
I gotcha.

530
00:28:05,609 --> 00:28:06,069
Yeah.

531
00:28:06,569 --> 00:28:10,629
Uh, so one of the commissioners
actually participated in the original

532
00:28:10,659 --> 00:28:15,339
MPA designation process working for
an environmental NGO at the time.

533
00:28:15,469 --> 00:28:15,719
Okay.

534
00:28:15,749 --> 00:28:20,746
She now, um, runs one of the master's
programs at Scripps Institution

535
00:28:20,786 --> 00:28:24,996
of Oceanography, so she very much
understands the nuance- Gotcha

536
00:28:25,006 --> 00:28:28,266
and the dynamics of ocean management.

537
00:28:28,576 --> 00:28:31,706
I think she even wrote a chapter
in a book on ocean policy.

538
00:28:31,926 --> 00:28:33,956
I wish I knew what the book was, but yeah.

539
00:28:33,986 --> 00:28:34,286
Right.

540
00:28:34,296 --> 00:28:34,326
Okay.

541
00:28:34,336 --> 00:28:35,256
She knows her stuff.

542
00:28:35,266 --> 00:28:35,966
She knows her stuff.

543
00:28:35,986 --> 00:28:36,726
Um- Okay, good.

544
00:28:36,826 --> 00:28:37,116
Good

545
00:28:37,386 --> 00:28:38,546
…
and yeah.

546
00:28:39,286 --> 00:28:43,646
It has a hard job of, trying
to correct the record as

547
00:28:43,646 --> 00:28:46,006
appropriate sitting on the dais.

548
00:28:46,626 --> 00:28:54,806
one of the other commissioners works
for a tribe and represents tribes,

549
00:28:54,806 --> 00:29:00,736
represent the tribal community, actually
started a tribal committee leading or

550
00:29:00,766 --> 00:29:02,896
that supports the commission's work.

551
00:29:03,636 --> 00:29:05,146
there's a lobbyist.

552
00:29:05,936 --> 00:29:11,276
There's a business owner who is serving as
the president of the commission right now.

553
00:29:11,696 --> 00:29:11,796
Okay.

554
00:29:11,896 --> 00:29:17,106
I would say he's pretty pragmatic
and does his due diligence on things.

555
00:29:17,526 --> 00:29:21,406
And then there is, uh, another
professor out of Santa Cruz

556
00:29:21,516 --> 00:29:22,636
who is on the commission.

557
00:29:23,356 --> 00:29:23,736
Okay.

558
00:29:25,014 --> 00:29:28,904
And professor in marine-related items or-

559
00:29:29,194 --> 00:29:31,044
More on the wildlife side.

560
00:29:31,164 --> 00:29:31,944
On the wildlife side.

561
00:29:31,944 --> 00:29:33,224
Of course- Yeah … 'cause
it's not all ocean.

562
00:29:33,224 --> 00:29:33,574
That's right.

563
00:29:33,584 --> 00:29:33,604
Mm-hmm.

564
00:29:33,624 --> 00:29:34,344
Okay, that makes sense.

565
00:29:34,354 --> 00:29:34,374
Yeah.

566
00:29:34,574 --> 00:29:34,964
Okay.

567
00:29:35,614 --> 00:29:36,034
Okay.

568
00:29:37,194 --> 00:29:38,484
Okay, so that's interesting.

569
00:29:38,654 --> 00:29:40,104
So that's, kind of what we'd expect.

570
00:29:40,104 --> 00:29:43,544
And it's a bit of a, like a diversity
from a professional background.

571
00:29:43,924 --> 00:29:47,734
Um, and then you do have a
representative from the tribal

572
00:29:47,864 --> 00:29:52,224
committees there that works for a
specific tribe, which is- Mm-hmm

573
00:29:52,294 --> 00:29:52,954
which is good.

574
00:29:53,334 --> 00:29:56,304
not a tribal member, though, like
not a member of the tribe- Correct.

575
00:29:56,304 --> 00:29:57,014
Yeah … who works for that.

576
00:29:57,014 --> 00:29:57,394
Okay.

577
00:29:58,484 --> 00:30:04,194
So this process that's been happening,
it still feels like it's just

578
00:30:04,835 --> 00:30:06,365
Like biased against the people.

579
00:30:07,205 --> 00:30:07,535
Yeah.

580
00:30:07,675 --> 00:30:07,975
Right?

581
00:30:07,975 --> 00:30:09,045
from what you're saying.

582
00:30:09,495 --> 00:30:15,205
and even though it's asking for people's
petitions, you know, it's kinda weird.

583
00:30:15,205 --> 00:30:17,735
So like, I guess let's go with
the petitions that came in.

584
00:30:18,555 --> 00:30:22,305
Like, do you know how many offhand that
came in, in and around or an estimate?

585
00:30:22,325 --> 00:30:23,325
Like were there- I think
it was like- … many?

586
00:30:23,865 --> 00:30:25,335
…
there were 20-something.

587
00:30:25,355 --> 00:30:27,815
They divided them into
two what they called bins.

588
00:30:27,815 --> 00:30:28,505
Okay.

589
00:30:28,505 --> 00:30:32,935
And so if some of them were, you
know, minor changes like the color

590
00:30:32,935 --> 00:30:36,645
on the map is hard for people to
understand 'cause, you know- Sure

591
00:30:36,665 --> 00:30:37,205
whatever.

592
00:30:37,215 --> 00:30:41,725
Stuff like that, they've already
decided those, what they thought

593
00:30:41,725 --> 00:30:47,215
were like the low-hanging fruit and
quote-unquote non-controversial.

594
00:30:47,685 --> 00:30:50,265
and now we're left with,
gosh, I can't remember.

595
00:30:50,275 --> 00:30:54,945
Is it 15 petitions that have
what they classified as more

596
00:30:54,945 --> 00:30:57,205
substantive changes to the network.

597
00:30:57,215 --> 00:30:57,245
Okay.

598
00:30:57,545 --> 00:31:03,205
So some of those, I should say, include
petitions that were submitted by tribes

599
00:31:03,285 --> 00:31:06,345
or- Mm-hmm … co-sponsored by tribes.

600
00:31:07,135 --> 00:31:12,525
and I would have liked to have seen those
elevated and prioritized, by the state.

601
00:31:13,285 --> 00:31:14,485
Um- But they were not.

602
00:31:14,875 --> 00:31:17,289
Were they just ignored- No … or
were they respond, they just- They

603
00:31:17,289 --> 00:31:18,465
were- … they just said they rejected.

604
00:31:18,935 --> 00:31:22,295
Actually in the Department of Fish
and Wildlife, which has kind of the

605
00:31:22,295 --> 00:31:26,785
science and enforcement side of this,
um, that help inform the commission,

606
00:31:27,328 --> 00:31:32,591
they even delayed releasing their
evaluation of the tribal petitions,

607
00:31:33,171 --> 00:31:37,881
for, I don't know, some reasons that
probably made sense to them at the time.

608
00:31:37,881 --> 00:31:41,281
But to me it seemed like, oh, we're
going to separate this and put

609
00:31:41,281 --> 00:31:45,471
it through another process, which
didn't seem fair or equitable.

610
00:31:45,471 --> 00:31:45,721
Right.

611
00:31:46,151 --> 00:31:46,541
Right.

612
00:31:46,561 --> 00:31:47,431
But yeah.

613
00:31:47,771 --> 00:31:48,021
Yeah.

614
00:31:48,071 --> 00:31:51,271
And without telling the reasons why
too, or they had reasons, but you're

615
00:31:51,271 --> 00:31:54,001
just kinda like, "This doesn't make
sense. Why- Yeah … separate these

616
00:31:54,001 --> 00:31:57,421
out?" Unless they're prioritizing
them, then I can understand, but-

617
00:31:57,721 --> 00:31:58,024
Yeah … that

618
00:31:58,024 --> 00:31:58,109
wasn't the

619
00:31:58,109 --> 00:31:58,151
case.

620
00:31:58,151 --> 00:32:03,621
They wanted to put them through the
tribal committee to have a conversation

621
00:32:03,701 --> 00:32:09,438
in that forum, but, you know, a lot
of I guess some of the other fishing

622
00:32:09,438 --> 00:32:13,208
interest groups rallied folks to
that meeting, and they said really

623
00:32:13,208 --> 00:32:17,628
inappropriate things, and it was not
a safe space for tribal communities.

624
00:32:18,248 --> 00:32:21,758
and unfortunately no one from the
state condemned that behavior, and

625
00:32:22,018 --> 00:32:26,768
this was a public meeting
for the, tribal sort of the

626
00:32:26,768 --> 00:32:28,138
discussions of the tribal petition.

627
00:32:28,138 --> 00:32:31,258
So you would imagine- Mm-hmm … a
lot of tribal community members would

628
00:32:31,268 --> 00:32:33,318
be there who had interest in there.

629
00:32:33,698 --> 00:32:37,928
But then they also had, is it
non-tribal fishing, groups- Correct.

630
00:32:38,188 --> 00:32:38,961
Yeah … that were there?

631
00:32:38,961 --> 00:32:39,118
Yeah.

632
00:32:39,118 --> 00:32:39,378
Okay.

633
00:32:39,428 --> 00:32:43,329
And so they made it uh, very
uncomfortable About them.

634
00:32:43,879 --> 00:32:44,209
Right.

635
00:32:44,209 --> 00:32:45,349
They made it about them.

636
00:32:45,729 --> 00:32:45,749
Yeah.

637
00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:49,089
Knowing that this was a
tribal subject matter.

638
00:32:49,529 --> 00:32:53,299
were some of the petitions,
like, to reduce commercial

639
00:32:53,309 --> 00:32:55,139
fishing in the areas around them?

640
00:32:55,139 --> 00:32:58,139
Is that why the fishing
groups were so worried?

641
00:32:58,679 --> 00:32:59,219
Yeah.

642
00:32:59,289 --> 00:33:04,559
Uh, so there are some tribally sponsored
petitions that would create new

643
00:33:04,579 --> 00:33:10,149
marine protected areas, that would be,
tribal take only- Yes … essentially.

644
00:33:10,629 --> 00:33:15,769
or, some of them include, all
shore-based fishing would be allowed

645
00:33:15,959 --> 00:33:21,459
in order to support some of the, we'll
say, more marginalized of the fishing

646
00:33:21,489 --> 00:33:22,959
community- The kind of folks that go out

647
00:33:22,959 --> 00:33:23,389
as well as tribes-

648
00:33:23,759 --> 00:33:24,109
Yeah

649
00:33:24,299 --> 00:33:28,109
…
yeah, as well as tribes that are
not federally recognized, 'cause

650
00:33:28,119 --> 00:33:32,489
that is a weird distinction here
in California, where if there are

651
00:33:33,169 --> 00:33:38,369
tribal-specific rights, it is only
for the federally recognized tribe.

652
00:33:38,459 --> 00:33:42,979
There's no way to discern for the
non-federal- Gotcha … federally

653
00:33:42,979 --> 00:33:44,529
recognized tribal members.

654
00:33:44,539 --> 00:33:44,579
Gotcha.

655
00:33:44,929 --> 00:33:48,889
And so these areas that would
allow for limited shore-based

656
00:33:48,889 --> 00:33:53,209
fishing, right, would also support
those tribal communities as well.

657
00:33:53,649 --> 00:33:56,209
So anyway, there's a lot
of wonky nuance here.

658
00:33:56,359 --> 00:33:56,989
Well, yeah.

659
00:33:56,989 --> 00:34:00,579
I mean, it makes the process
really complex for volunteer

660
00:34:00,589 --> 00:34:01,769
commissioners to go through.

661
00:34:01,769 --> 00:34:01,789
Yeah.

662
00:34:02,689 --> 00:34:07,035
but again, like I guess the assumption is
that these commissioners would take the

663
00:34:07,045 --> 00:34:11,115
expertise from a variety of different,
like, you know, Fish and Wildlife, as well

664
00:34:11,115 --> 00:34:15,715
as other organizations, like within the
departments, plus nonprofit organizations

665
00:34:15,715 --> 00:34:18,445
and, fishing groups and stuff, and
make the decisions based on that.

666
00:34:18,695 --> 00:34:22,585
Where, let's be honest, nobody would be
happy, but everybody would be satisfied.

667
00:34:22,585 --> 00:34:25,495
that's the goal of, these
types of- Right … processes.

668
00:34:25,495 --> 00:34:29,085
But when you mentioned, and I kinda
wanna get into this a little bit in more

669
00:34:29,085 --> 00:34:37,123
detail this tribal, I guess committee
meeting where you had both like non-tribal

670
00:34:37,123 --> 00:34:38,763
and tribal members at this meeting.

671
00:34:39,336 --> 00:34:43,996
I don't wanna go into what was actually
said, but for some of the tribal

672
00:34:43,996 --> 00:34:47,766
members, like Did you speak to them
afterwards or have the idea, 'cause

673
00:34:47,766 --> 00:34:50,396
you were mentioning it, it wasn't
safe, like it wasn't a safe space.

674
00:34:50,446 --> 00:34:54,036
Was it as soon as they spoke, they
were shouted at, aggressively?

675
00:34:54,256 --> 00:34:59,743
'Cause I've seen it happen in Canada,
opening up fisheries to, indigenous,

676
00:34:59,803 --> 00:35:03,463
groups that have not necessarily had
it in the past, but they wanted to

677
00:35:03,473 --> 00:35:06,493
give it because they deserve it as part
of our reconciliation here in Canada.

678
00:35:07,253 --> 00:35:12,193
And, you know, you just see like,
like really like aggressive protests,

679
00:35:12,253 --> 00:35:16,983
and it gets out of hand a lot of the
times, turning violent in some cases.

680
00:35:17,313 --> 00:35:20,813
- was it similar to that, like shouting
matches going back and forth,

681
00:35:21,013 --> 00:35:24,823
potentially like could have been
conceived as, fairly aggressive?

682
00:35:25,773 --> 00:35:29,209
, there were some terrible comments
made that came- Yeah … from,

683
00:35:29,229 --> 00:35:31,289
I think, a place of entitlement,

684
00:35:31,569 --> 00:35:31,599
right?

685
00:35:31,769 --> 00:35:31,919
Mm.

686
00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:37,359
Mm. Um, it was stuff along the line
of, like, "You have your reservations.

687
00:35:37,369 --> 00:35:43,519
Why do you need to, you know-
Right … take over the ocean?" invoking

688
00:35:43,519 --> 00:35:48,089
genocidal policies from the 1800s and
saying that they should be used here

689
00:35:48,089 --> 00:35:50,315
in California in the ocean, right?

690
00:35:50,315 --> 00:35:51,979
It was- Right … it was bad.

691
00:35:52,439 --> 00:35:58,439
and it was me and another young
woman who works at NRDC who were the

692
00:35:58,439 --> 00:36:00,279
people that stood up and apologized.

693
00:36:00,879 --> 00:36:05,109
it was not anyone from the state,
which was- But- … really unfortunate.

694
00:36:05,189 --> 00:36:06,759
And they're sitting there watching this.

695
00:36:06,809 --> 00:36:09,679
they're- Mm-hmm … seeing this play
out, all these comments happening.

696
00:36:10,435 --> 00:36:14,255
Did they look disgust- did they look like
they were like, "Why are people saying

697
00:36:14,255 --> 00:36:16,025
this?" at least in that kind of way?

698
00:36:16,025 --> 00:36:17,315
Or, and like, I just…

699
00:36:17,395 --> 00:36:19,425
Like, I don't understand not
saying anything as a government

700
00:36:19,435 --> 00:36:23,135
representative, but also, like,
did they look uncomfortable

701
00:36:23,135 --> 00:36:24,955
too by what people were saying?

702
00:36:24,955 --> 00:36:25,565
Like, shock?

703
00:36:25,575 --> 00:36:28,245
'Cause I'm sure, like, when you hear
that in a public comment period, like,

704
00:36:28,245 --> 00:36:29,475
you're just like, " this is ridiculous.

705
00:36:29,475 --> 00:36:30,485
How can people do this?"

706
00:36:31,285 --> 00:36:31,725
Yeah.

707
00:36:31,765 --> 00:36:36,245
I don't know if, you know, it was
just, like, expected and sort of

708
00:36:36,245 --> 00:36:41,205
normalized that the folks that showed
up would take that sort of stance.

709
00:36:41,255 --> 00:36:45,255
I really, I wish I could say what or why.

710
00:36:45,315 --> 00:36:45,775
Right.

711
00:36:46,075 --> 00:36:47,075
but I will say- Yeah, obviously
you can't be in their brains, like,

712
00:36:47,075 --> 00:36:51,075
and yeah … the fact that, a few
people did, kind of condemn the

713
00:36:51,075 --> 00:36:52,895
behavior, I think put them on notice.

714
00:36:52,975 --> 00:36:57,765
So- Right … I would hope that that is
a good lesson learned for moving forward.

715
00:36:58,325 --> 00:36:58,765
Yeah.

716
00:36:59,175 --> 00:37:01,275
Yeah, 'cause I mean, like, look,
We obviously understand that

717
00:37:01,275 --> 00:37:02,635
this is not an easy process.

718
00:37:02,665 --> 00:37:06,925
We understand that people's livelihoods
are at hand for, on both sides.

719
00:37:06,935 --> 00:37:09,255
So there's- Mm-hmm … gonna
be some contentious issues.

720
00:37:09,755 --> 00:37:13,605
But the reason why the process is there
is so everybody can have their say, Right

721
00:37:13,605 --> 00:37:17,595
and be able to feel comfortable to
have their say without the backlash

722
00:37:17,645 --> 00:37:23,325
of somebody saying stuff, as you
mentioned, invoking genocidal,

723
00:37:23,325 --> 00:37:25,015
you know, policies from the 1800s.

724
00:37:25,075 --> 00:37:27,759
Like, that's disgusting
i-in its own right.

725
00:37:28,619 --> 00:37:34,262
And it makes this whole process almost
like, what's the point if people

726
00:37:34,272 --> 00:37:36,902
aren't gonna be able to speak up
'cause they're afraid to speak up?

727
00:37:37,272 --> 00:37:37,542
Right.

728
00:37:37,562 --> 00:37:43,546
and how to- get past this and make
it so that people can actually be

729
00:37:43,636 --> 00:37:45,806
okay with speaking up in a safe spot.

730
00:37:45,876 --> 00:37:48,606
I don't know if it's separate meetings,
I don't know if it's together.

731
00:37:49,166 --> 00:37:50,536
many of these people are adults.

732
00:37:50,566 --> 00:37:53,276
I don't understand why they're,
treating each other this way.

733
00:37:53,516 --> 00:37:55,286
but we know it happens obviously, right?

734
00:37:55,296 --> 00:37:58,926
Like, we can't be ignorant to the fact
that this doesn't happen and it's awful.

735
00:37:59,146 --> 00:38:03,906
but as you said, the commissioners and the
committees who are there need to set some

736
00:38:04,566 --> 00:38:06,676
ground rules in terms of how this happens.

737
00:38:07,066 --> 00:38:09,766
And if you say something or you think
of saying something, just leave, like

738
00:38:09,766 --> 00:38:11,216
you're gone, so that people- Yeah

739
00:38:11,216 --> 00:38:12,106
can feel comfortable.

740
00:38:12,536 --> 00:38:13,766
Um, right?

741
00:38:13,826 --> 00:38:15,686
And it's just, I don't understand it.

742
00:38:15,746 --> 00:38:20,736
So I guess, like, uh, you have
relationships with the people who

743
00:38:20,736 --> 00:38:22,646
were at present at that, meeting.

744
00:38:22,946 --> 00:38:24,496
Obviously, they're frustrated.

745
00:38:24,716 --> 00:38:26,926
can you talk about how they
felt after the meeting?

746
00:38:27,026 --> 00:38:29,376
Uh, like just from your
conversations with them.

747
00:38:29,716 --> 00:38:31,906
I don't want you- Yeah … to speak
for them or, or feel comf- like, I want

748
00:38:31,906 --> 00:38:32,896
you to feel comfortable just saying-

749
00:38:33,456 --> 00:38:34,026
Yeah … what you heard.

750
00:38:34,026 --> 00:38:39,116
I mean, I, I got some text messages from
members of various tribal communities

751
00:38:39,116 --> 00:38:41,166
just saying, "Thank you." Mm-hmm.

752
00:38:41,166 --> 00:38:41,196
Like

753
00:38:41,286 --> 00:38:45,066
how horrendous and how awful that was,
and they were grateful that someone,

754
00:38:45,386 --> 00:38:47,236
you know, spoke up and called it out.

755
00:38:47,756 --> 00:38:54,026
other people, I had, staff at the
state say, "Well, no one in the tribal

756
00:38:54,026 --> 00:38:58,386
community that was in the room seemed
bothered by it, and so you had no

757
00:38:58,386 --> 00:39:01,656
right to make it a big deal." yeah.

758
00:39:03,576 --> 00:39:10,506
which, like if you have lived your whole
life having to tolerate those kinds

759
00:39:10,506 --> 00:39:13,536
of comments and that behavior, yeah.

760
00:39:13,566 --> 00:39:19,886
And it not being a safe space, speaking up
in the moment isn't gonna feel worthwhile.

761
00:39:20,716 --> 00:39:21,766
Even reacting.

762
00:39:22,276 --> 00:39:25,439
Through a lot of conversations, I know
a lot of people who are just like, Man,

763
00:39:25,439 --> 00:39:28,349
that was really racist what this person
said," like through a video and things

764
00:39:28,349 --> 00:39:33,873
like that. and I, see people, that I know
of color just be like this is normal, and

765
00:39:33,873 --> 00:39:35,063
I'm like, "Well, how do you react to it?

766
00:39:35,083 --> 00:39:38,023
Are you not angry?" He's like,
"Yeah," but he's like, "I just don't

767
00:39:38,083 --> 00:39:42,693
do anything anymore 'cause every
time I try and do something, nothing

768
00:39:42,693 --> 00:39:44,233
happens or I get the backlash."

769
00:39:44,243 --> 00:39:44,273
Right.

770
00:39:44,353 --> 00:39:47,363
"I look like the aggressor. I look
like the quote-unquote complainer."

771
00:39:47,833 --> 00:39:49,693
And this is a clear case of that.

772
00:39:49,833 --> 00:39:53,823
If you react, it's… , you're
trying to be the better person.

773
00:39:53,823 --> 00:39:59,103
You're trying to be safe, too, in this
world, you do what you can to survive,

774
00:39:59,143 --> 00:40:04,413
and sometimes that silence is assumed
to be like it's complicit, but it's not.

775
00:40:04,463 --> 00:40:08,763
And to have people- Yeah … on the
commission say, "Well, it didn't look

776
00:40:08,763 --> 00:40:10,183
like they reacted," and you're like, "Why?

777
00:40:10,203 --> 00:40:14,073
I don't even know why you would mention
it," is just the dumbest thing I've

778
00:40:14,073 --> 00:40:18,493
ever heard, and just the most ignorant
thing that they can go through.

779
00:40:18,533 --> 00:40:22,323
I don't get… Like, it feels like
that entire commission should be going

780
00:40:22,323 --> 00:40:26,873
through some sort of course or- Yeah

781
00:40:26,903 --> 00:40:32,323
like strategy of how to be inclusive
and how to recognize when people

782
00:40:32,323 --> 00:40:37,243
are petrified and won't speak up
because of what people are saying.

783
00:40:37,903 --> 00:40:40,823
if they're not going through that or they
haven't had a background in that, they

784
00:40:40,833 --> 00:40:43,173
should not be on, in a position like this.

785
00:40:43,463 --> 00:40:43,803
Yeah.

786
00:40:43,833 --> 00:40:46,893
I mean, I will say, some of
the commissioners are very

787
00:40:46,913 --> 00:40:48,613
well aware of how- Right

788
00:40:48,633 --> 00:40:50,003
problematic a lot of that was.

789
00:40:50,353 --> 00:40:56,403
Some of this comes from staff and
a long history and culture of, you

790
00:40:56,403 --> 00:41:01,353
know, not understanding or having to
understand these different perspectives.

791
00:41:02,003 --> 00:41:07,493
and so yeah, I think there's a big
cultural shift that needs to happen

792
00:41:07,503 --> 00:41:12,083
to make sure that they're really
hearing from, the diversity of

793
00:41:12,143 --> 00:41:17,483
people in California, 'cause it is
a very diverse and, I don't know.

794
00:41:17,553 --> 00:41:21,173
there are polling numbers that show
just how much people love the ocean

795
00:41:21,173 --> 00:41:25,263
and wanna protect the ocean, and if you
sit through a Fish and Game Commission

796
00:41:25,393 --> 00:41:30,083
meeting, that is not the vibe of-
Right … the voices that they're hearing.

797
00:41:30,153 --> 00:41:31,053
So yeah.

798
00:41:31,833 --> 00:41:38,860
Do you think this is a consequence of
The department's lack of approaching

799
00:41:38,860 --> 00:41:45,320
it from a scientific as well as a
holistic point of view, as we mentioned

800
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,190
at the beginning of this conversation.

801
00:41:47,420 --> 00:41:50,640
As you mentioned, like, if they had
approached it, like looking at the

802
00:41:50,970 --> 00:41:57,440
science, looking at where people are
fishing, you know, where they're not, or

803
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,470
what's important to certain groups and
what's not important to certain groups.

804
00:42:01,947 --> 00:42:06,027
I ask this because I remember sitting
in on a lecture when I was in my

805
00:42:06,027 --> 00:42:11,387
graduate school, and, Brian Day, who
was the, commissioner at the Great

806
00:42:11,627 --> 00:42:13,907
Barrier Reef Marine Park, came over.

807
00:42:13,917 --> 00:42:16,657
He was a good friend of my
supervisor's, Dr. John Roth.

808
00:42:17,117 --> 00:42:22,417
And they had just finished increasing
the number of reserves, like no-take

809
00:42:22,417 --> 00:42:25,207
reserves by 30%, went from 3% to 33%.

810
00:42:25,237 --> 00:42:26,997
Huge thing, especially in
the Great Barrier Reef.

811
00:42:27,717 --> 00:42:30,887
And he mentioned one of the things
that was hugely important was that

812
00:42:30,937 --> 00:42:36,907
every fisher, commercial fisher had
a GPS on its boat, on their boat.

813
00:42:37,497 --> 00:42:41,717
And they didn't like it at first, but
then when they looked at the tracks of

814
00:42:41,717 --> 00:42:48,307
where they went, everywhere where they
recommended to increase the no-take was

815
00:42:48,377 --> 00:42:54,709
where the boats weren't going anyway
he says it avoided a lot of problems

816
00:42:54,709 --> 00:42:55,909
because we just showed the data.

817
00:42:55,919 --> 00:42:59,039
This is where you go, this
is where we wanna increase.

818
00:42:59,039 --> 00:43:01,689
Like, they saw opportunity in
increasing, and it ended up being

819
00:43:01,689 --> 00:43:04,349
important areas for these reserves.

820
00:43:04,569 --> 00:43:07,169
And it's like, not only are we gonna
protect these areas where you don't go,

821
00:43:07,499 --> 00:43:10,579
but it's gonna help with the fish that
you're fishing as a spillover effect.

822
00:43:11,059 --> 00:43:11,429
Right.

823
00:43:11,479 --> 00:43:14,679
Do you think, like, not presenting
that data, I don't even know if they

824
00:43:14,689 --> 00:43:18,469
have that data, or not looking at
that data or if they had presented

825
00:43:18,469 --> 00:43:22,889
that, that would've potentially
helped with some of this backlash?

826
00:43:23,849 --> 00:43:25,099
Yeah, I don't know.

827
00:43:25,139 --> 00:43:27,439
and that is the double
standard that exists.

828
00:43:27,499 --> 00:43:31,419
they did these regional meetings,
where you could comment on all of the

829
00:43:31,419 --> 00:43:33,855
petitions, and I think counted it up.

830
00:43:33,875 --> 00:43:36,075
It was almost, like,
40… Was it 40 hours?

831
00:43:36,085 --> 00:43:37,715
So 20 public comments at least.

832
00:43:37,965 --> 00:43:38,855
I forget the number now.

833
00:43:38,885 --> 00:43:39,525
It was a lot.

834
00:43:39,565 --> 00:43:39,845
I-

835
00:43:39,875 --> 00:43:40,235
Yeah

836
00:43:40,265 --> 00:43:41,605
…
gave way too many public comments.

837
00:43:42,025 --> 00:43:46,625
But my favorite one is I basically took
the fishing industry talking points

838
00:43:46,665 --> 00:43:50,355
and spun it back around because, you
know, as someone that commercially

839
00:43:50,355 --> 00:43:52,135
fishes, I can just say, "I fish there.

840
00:43:52,175 --> 00:43:56,135
You can't protect it with no data to
back it up." Or, like, "This is going

841
00:43:56,135 --> 00:43:57,945
to negatively impact my business."

842
00:43:58,185 --> 00:43:59,415
No data to back it up.

843
00:43:59,745 --> 00:44:04,855
But the amount of science and rigor that
has to go into creating that protected

844
00:44:04,855 --> 00:44:09,895
place, and the amount of compromise
that goes into it based on unjustified

845
00:44:09,905 --> 00:44:14,695
use information that people are
sharing, and still not even supporting

846
00:44:14,695 --> 00:44:16,225
the conservation measure, right?

847
00:44:16,765 --> 00:44:21,705
it's wild that we have anything protected
or good for the environment at all.

848
00:44:22,285 --> 00:44:22,515
Well, 100%.

849
00:44:23,435 --> 00:44:26,315
Like, it, it- Yeah … it, I
understand you want, you want feedback

850
00:44:26,325 --> 00:44:28,295
from the different communities.

851
00:44:29,085 --> 00:44:33,085
But then there's also, you provide
the science and the data, whether

852
00:44:33,125 --> 00:44:35,905
you call it science or not, you
provide the data to provide the

853
00:44:35,955 --> 00:44:40,215
evidence for justifying that area.

854
00:44:40,685 --> 00:44:42,752
and sometimes the data
could be in different forms.

855
00:44:42,752 --> 00:44:47,012
I say science, but not, the science that
I think I would be thinking about data

856
00:44:47,012 --> 00:44:47,952
points- Sure … and things like that.

857
00:44:47,952 --> 00:44:51,402
There's traditional knowledge from
not only, tribal communities, but

858
00:44:51,402 --> 00:44:53,152
also from, fishing communities.

859
00:44:53,152 --> 00:44:53,182
And

860
00:44:53,182 --> 00:44:56,422
local knowledge from, you know- Hundred
percent … commercial fishermen, right?

861
00:44:56,432 --> 00:44:56,762
That's all-

862
00:44:56,762 --> 00:44:57,152
Exactly

863
00:44:57,152 --> 00:44:58,752
…
valuable information.

864
00:44:59,212 --> 00:44:59,572
Yeah.

865
00:44:59,572 --> 00:45:03,752
Um, but- But it seems like with these
petitions, from somebody outside

866
00:45:03,752 --> 00:45:06,992
looking in, it seems like it causes
more conflict by just looking at

867
00:45:06,992 --> 00:45:11,762
the petitions and not presenting,
an assessment at the beginning.

868
00:45:11,842 --> 00:45:14,952
This is how well everything's going,
and this is where we're seeing

869
00:45:14,952 --> 00:45:18,882
parts where we're seeing it's not as
effective as we initially thought.

870
00:45:19,492 --> 00:45:23,539
And then now we have your petitions,
and we see maybe there's some

871
00:45:23,589 --> 00:45:26,669
agreement in here of, like, it
doing well, it not doing well.

872
00:45:26,939 --> 00:45:31,130
Presenting that data kinda takes
away some of that- I don't know, that

873
00:45:31,130 --> 00:45:33,070
aggressiveness Right … between groups.

874
00:45:33,150 --> 00:45:33,720
You know what I mean?

875
00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:33,880
Well, yeah.

876
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,380
Like, I don't know if it's gonna
happen, but I would imagine that's

877
00:45:36,390 --> 00:45:40,230
if you present the data per first
and then include the petitions.

878
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:40,270
Well,

879
00:45:40,270 --> 00:45:45,080
I think the fact that it was public
interest organizations that submitted

880
00:45:45,100 --> 00:45:48,140
petitions based on science, right?

881
00:45:48,150 --> 00:45:48,310
Yep.

882
00:45:48,590 --> 00:45:55,820
it politicized or made it seem like
that science had some, vendetta, right?

883
00:45:55,820 --> 00:45:56,140
Yeah.

884
00:45:56,180 --> 00:45:58,910
Rather than if it came from
the state, I think that there

885
00:45:58,930 --> 00:46:00,630
would've been a level of trust.

886
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,340
Whether people liked it or not, they
would probably still oppose it, but

887
00:46:04,340 --> 00:46:07,790
at least- Sure … there would've
been a level of trust in the science

888
00:46:07,790 --> 00:46:09,820
that was used and how it was used.

889
00:46:10,250 --> 00:46:14,320
And to be frank, I'm disappointed in
how the Department of Fish and Wildlife

890
00:46:14,340 --> 00:46:21,020
even interpreted the science that they
do have and what felt like a selective

891
00:46:21,020 --> 00:46:26,350
use of a lot of research, data, and
science that has been collected- Right

892
00:46:26,350 --> 00:46:29,700
over the last decade
or more, unfortunately.

893
00:46:30,010 --> 00:46:30,190
So.

894
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:30,750
Yeah.

895
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:31,420
I mean,

896
00:46:31,550 --> 00:46:33,430
like- 'Cause I think they
just don't wanna do the thing.

897
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,330
I think they just wanna have what
they have and call it a continued

898
00:46:37,330 --> 00:46:40,870
win, um, and not go through the effort

899
00:46:41,540 --> 00:46:41,560
of-

900
00:46:41,570 --> 00:46:42,440
Yeah.

901
00:46:43,500 --> 00:46:43,830
Yeah.

902
00:46:43,930 --> 00:46:48,720
I find it so interesting too, because
it's such a large MPA network, and it

903
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:54,150
is such a great opportunity to show off
what we can do as people, you know- Yeah

904
00:46:54,150 --> 00:46:55,280
with this data.

905
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,340
And to have people who just don't
seem like they wanna do it properly

906
00:47:00,340 --> 00:47:03,110
is just beyond disappointing.

907
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,990
I don't know, maybe you and I are
different, but like, imagine, you know,

908
00:47:08,410 --> 00:47:12,070
I've been in this game for 25-plus years,
and I like, I look back at my younger

909
00:47:12,070 --> 00:47:15,670
self, and if I graduate and I had an
opportunity to start collecting data in

910
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,860
these MPAs and, and looking at the data,
I would have so many papers that I would

911
00:47:19,860 --> 00:47:23,700
wanna write that, you know, where you're
just like, "Look at all this cool stuff.

912
00:47:23,700 --> 00:47:25,880
Like, this is working, but this
isn't working, and this is why.

913
00:47:25,900 --> 00:47:27,960
And then we can do this, and
then we talk to this group, and

914
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:32,500
they're giving feedback." It seems
like such a cool thing to do.

915
00:47:33,150 --> 00:47:36,540
And then you, hear this like, it just
doesn't seem like they wanna do anything.

916
00:47:36,703 --> 00:47:40,583
And to just to have that persona,
you know, that reputation of like,

917
00:47:40,583 --> 00:47:42,043
"
what do you mean you don't
wanna have this?" Like,

918
00:47:42,143 --> 00:47:43,960
there's so much time and money.

919
00:47:43,970 --> 00:47:49,370
Like, this was a product of the marine
spatial planning that was coming from the

920
00:47:49,370 --> 00:47:53,350
Obama years, you know, when you had these
council groups that was put all over the

921
00:47:53,350 --> 00:47:57,020
US, and this was a product of that, right?

922
00:47:57,030 --> 00:48:01,070
Like, this was what we came out with this,
and it could've been such a cool thing.

923
00:48:01,870 --> 00:48:04,740
And then to have this of just like,
"Yeah, we'll just get petitions and we'll

924
00:48:04,740 --> 00:48:07,900
just have you fight each other out for
it, and whoever wins- Yeah … whoever

925
00:48:07,900 --> 00:48:10,530
makes the most money out of it, well,
then that's what how we'll go forward."

926
00:48:11,774 --> 00:48:12,274
Yeah.

927
00:48:12,644 --> 00:48:18,314
Well, okay, so the other side of this,
right, is This came on the heels of the

928
00:48:18,364 --> 00:48:21,294
executive order in the state for 30 by 30.

929
00:48:21,304 --> 00:48:21,334
Right.

930
00:48:21,484 --> 00:48:23,934
So to protect 30% of lands and waters.

931
00:48:24,384 --> 00:48:29,254
And California had this really
important piece of that 30 by 30

932
00:48:29,534 --> 00:48:33,724
first executive order, and then it was
passed and codified by the legislature.

933
00:48:33,734 --> 00:48:37,544
So if that tells you the amount of public
support for protecting lands and waters.

934
00:48:37,644 --> 00:48:38,344
I don't know, right?

935
00:48:39,254 --> 00:48:39,304
We don't

936
00:48:39,304 --> 00:48:39,324
see.

937
00:48:39,334 --> 00:48:39,424
Yeah.

938
00:48:40,194 --> 00:48:43,734
but it had this, like, human
component for equitable access.

939
00:48:44,224 --> 00:48:48,164
And, if you really wanna look at
equitable access, it's not just

940
00:48:49,104 --> 00:48:51,024
being able to fish wherever you want.

941
00:48:51,114 --> 00:48:56,024
It's making sure that everyone has
access to a healthy, thriving coastal

942
00:48:56,054 --> 00:48:58,454
area to do whatever they wanna do there.

943
00:48:58,934 --> 00:49:03,104
Or even not to go to the coast, to sit 100
miles inland and just know that the ocean

944
00:49:03,104 --> 00:49:04,764
is protected, if that's what you value.

945
00:49:04,814 --> 00:49:07,494
Like, you have an equal
say in what happens.

946
00:49:07,494 --> 00:49:07,984
Yeah.

947
00:49:07,984 --> 00:49:08,304
Yeah.

948
00:49:08,394 --> 00:49:10,474
so we do have this 30 by 30 thing.

949
00:49:10,854 --> 00:49:15,134
The Department of Fish and Wildlife and
the commission tried to decouple whatever

950
00:49:15,134 --> 00:49:19,464
their decision-making was from 30 by
30, so that was a whole nother thing.

951
00:49:19,864 --> 00:49:20,024
Interesting.

952
00:49:20,034 --> 00:49:23,494
Um, but we have another state
agency called the Ocean Protection

953
00:49:23,494 --> 00:49:27,674
Council, and they're sort of the
policy lead, under the governor's

954
00:49:27,714 --> 00:49:30,224
office and then the, what is it?

955
00:49:30,224 --> 00:49:32,164
California Natural Resources Agency.

956
00:49:32,754 --> 00:49:36,574
And they did their own evaluation
and suite of recommendations

957
00:49:36,594 --> 00:49:37,964
on all of these petitions.

958
00:49:38,044 --> 00:49:41,814
They really looked at that environmental
justice piece and what the tribes wanted,

959
00:49:41,824 --> 00:49:47,754
had conversations with those tribal
leaders, and actually recommend, advancing

960
00:49:47,774 --> 00:49:52,514
some of those tribally led petitions
and some others with this climate lens.

961
00:49:52,564 --> 00:49:56,624
Understanding, like, we're in this crazy
marine heatwave with a pending El Niño.

962
00:49:56,974 --> 00:50:01,854
I don't think I remember the water
dipping below 60 degrees all winter.

963
00:50:01,894 --> 00:50:04,264
that is wild here in Southern California.

964
00:50:04,464 --> 00:50:04,924
Yeah.

965
00:50:04,984 --> 00:50:09,334
and I'm scared for what this fall is gonna
look like- Mm-hmm … in a lot of ways and

966
00:50:09,384 --> 00:50:10,894
how our health- With this El Niño and s-

967
00:50:10,894 --> 00:50:12,664
might, may or may not come back, you know?

968
00:50:12,944 --> 00:50:13,124
Mm-hmm.

969
00:50:13,164 --> 00:50:16,144
So, I will give it to the
Ocean Protection Council.

970
00:50:16,934 --> 00:50:18,434
They considered some of that.

971
00:50:18,444 --> 00:50:20,824
So, there is another suite
of recommendations that

972
00:50:20,824 --> 00:50:22,234
give us an opportunity.

973
00:50:22,624 --> 00:50:30,344
And so hopefully in a month, we'll
have some positive news to report,

974
00:50:30,474 --> 00:50:31,094
Absolutely.

975
00:50:31,294 --> 00:50:31,564
Now-

976
00:50:31,584 --> 00:50:32,014
…
based on that

977
00:50:32,304 --> 00:50:35,604
you know, I always like to, as we-- I was
coming t-to the end of this conversation.

978
00:50:35,614 --> 00:50:38,574
You and I could probably talk about
this for like three more hours easily.

979
00:50:38,814 --> 00:50:42,174
but, you know, as we get close to-- You,
you mentioned this meeting in October.

980
00:50:42,584 --> 00:50:44,524
Is there anything, like,
the audience can do?

981
00:50:44,834 --> 00:50:46,354
Uh, we have a lot of California listeners.

982
00:50:46,404 --> 00:50:48,604
We have a lot of listeners who are-
Yeah … who are very interested in MPAs.

983
00:50:48,604 --> 00:50:50,254
I talk about MPAs all the time here.

984
00:50:50,851 --> 00:50:54,581
Is there anything that they can do
to help with this process to either

985
00:50:54,731 --> 00:50:59,841
sign petitions or really help in terms
of making this process a lot easier,

986
00:50:59,841 --> 00:51:03,251
whether it's for this month or the next
month's meeting or even in the future?

987
00:51:04,111 --> 00:51:05,361
Yeah, absolutely.

988
00:51:05,371 --> 00:51:09,291
So Fish ON, our website
is actually fishon.us.

989
00:51:09,311 --> 00:51:09,791
Mm-hmm.

990
00:51:09,901 --> 00:51:15,011
and on our News and Resources page,
there is a form on our latest blog

991
00:51:15,021 --> 00:51:19,801
post that is, a kind of a pre-filled
letter based on our positions.

992
00:51:19,801 --> 00:51:19,851
Yeah.

993
00:51:19,851 --> 00:51:22,091
The positions that we took
on each of those petitions.

994
00:51:22,331 --> 00:51:23,301
But you can edit that.

995
00:51:23,311 --> 00:51:27,131
So if you wanna say, "I support everything
that strengthens our network," you can

996
00:51:27,141 --> 00:51:31,251
make that letter your own, and it goes
straight to the Fish and Game Commission

997
00:51:31,261 --> 00:51:33,241
for their decision-making next month.

998
00:51:33,871 --> 00:51:37,081
Um, if you wanna show up to that meeting,
if you're in California and can get up

999
00:51:37,081 --> 00:51:39,931
to Sacramento, that's also an option.

1000
00:51:39,971 --> 00:51:43,351
You can DM us on social
media and we can connect you.

1001
00:51:43,351 --> 00:51:46,881
I think there might be bus
opportunities- Okay … people

1002
00:51:46,881 --> 00:51:48,111
rallying together- Okay … to show up.

1003
00:51:48,421 --> 00:51:48,781
I like

1004
00:51:48,781 --> 00:51:48,831
that.

1005
00:51:48,841 --> 00:51:52,431
Um, and then there are some other
organizations, right, if they're

1006
00:51:52,431 --> 00:51:55,481
more aligned with your values
and what you want from the ocean.

1007
00:51:55,521 --> 00:51:57,921
NRDC has some resources.

1008
00:51:57,991 --> 00:52:01,861
Um, Environment California and Azul are
the ones- Mm-hmm … that sponsored a

1009
00:52:01,861 --> 00:52:06,884
lot of those resilient kelp forest set of
petitions or set of- Okay … potential

1010
00:52:06,884 --> 00:52:08,994
new expanded strengthened areas.

1011
00:52:09,004 --> 00:52:11,454
So those are- Yeah … some
other organizations you can check

1012
00:52:11,464 --> 00:52:13,114
out if that's more your vibe.

1013
00:52:13,864 --> 00:52:14,414
I love it.

1014
00:52:14,474 --> 00:52:14,814
I love it.

1015
00:52:14,834 --> 00:52:17,644
You know, one thing that I go back
to all the time when it comes to

1016
00:52:17,644 --> 00:52:21,698
these types of processes It matters
who shows up to these meetings.

1017
00:52:21,708 --> 00:52:21,798
Definitely.

1018
00:52:22,018 --> 00:52:22,818
It really does.

1019
00:52:22,828 --> 00:52:25,918
And we've talked about it, a fishing
group that comes in and wants to

1020
00:52:25,928 --> 00:52:28,418
hijack a meeting and make things
uncomfortable, they can do that.

1021
00:52:28,418 --> 00:52:32,448
But the opposite can happen as well, where
you can show up for your support for the

1022
00:52:32,448 --> 00:52:37,798
environment, for your support of making
sure people have their, right to speak and

1023
00:52:37,798 --> 00:52:39,188
they feel safe to have the right to speak.

1024
00:52:39,448 --> 00:52:41,138
I'm not talking about going
in and being aggressive.

1025
00:52:41,138 --> 00:52:43,368
I'm talking about going in and
supporting the process to make

1026
00:52:43,368 --> 00:52:46,998
sure that people have access to the
speech that they want, you know?

1027
00:52:46,998 --> 00:52:48,458
And I think that's important.

1028
00:52:48,458 --> 00:52:52,828
And I remember speaking to, Chad Nelson,
who's the CEO of Surfrider, and he was

1029
00:52:52,828 --> 00:52:56,568
talking about how one time, don't know
the full details of the… But they were

1030
00:52:56,568 --> 00:53:00,598
gonna build, I think it was like some
kind of plant in front of a surf spot.

1031
00:53:00,988 --> 00:53:01,358
And- Oh, was

1032
00:53:01,358 --> 00:53:02,738
it the toll road at Trestles?

1033
00:53:02,778 --> 00:53:03,398
Yes.

1034
00:53:03,468 --> 00:53:03,978
Toll roads.

1035
00:53:03,978 --> 00:53:04,988
In Southern Cal- That's,
that's what it was.

1036
00:53:05,038 --> 00:53:05,618
Yeah.

1037
00:53:05,728 --> 00:53:08,138
And he got so many people to come out.

1038
00:53:08,148 --> 00:53:10,428
Like the Surfrider as an-
Yeah … organization and their

1039
00:53:10,428 --> 00:53:14,878
partners got so many people that
they had to listen to the people.

1040
00:53:14,908 --> 00:53:18,408
And I think this is where, you
know, like MPAs are so important.

1041
00:53:18,618 --> 00:53:19,668
So, so important.

1042
00:53:20,148 --> 00:53:23,118
But they're not the sexy thing to do.

1043
00:53:23,408 --> 00:53:24,098
You know what I mean?

1044
00:53:24,118 --> 00:53:27,148
It's not like it's not gonna get
you know, millions of clicks on

1045
00:53:27,148 --> 00:53:28,578
social media and stuff like that.

1046
00:53:28,598 --> 00:53:30,528
It's the process that works.

1047
00:53:30,878 --> 00:53:34,058
It's the going to the public meetings,
supporting the people who want, to

1048
00:53:34,068 --> 00:53:38,608
have a say, having that say, feeling
safe to do so, and also just being

1049
00:53:38,608 --> 00:53:42,488
able to be there and showing your
support for the network of MPAs to work

1050
00:53:42,488 --> 00:53:44,748
effectively, I think is super important.

1051
00:53:44,748 --> 00:53:47,768
So, you know, as Anupa said, we'll
put the links so that you can get

1052
00:53:47,768 --> 00:53:52,188
access to, whether it's buses or
anything like that, or fishon.us.

1053
00:53:52,208 --> 00:53:55,578
We'll put the links in there for the
petition I say just show up if you can.

1054
00:53:55,878 --> 00:53:59,428
It's a far drive from Southern California
if you're in Southern California or even

1055
00:53:59,428 --> 00:54:03,048
in Northern California, but, get out there
as much as you can and the more people we

1056
00:54:03,048 --> 00:54:06,348
have, the better to be able to fight for
this network, the proper network, right?

1057
00:54:06,568 --> 00:54:06,978
Yeah.

1058
00:54:07,258 --> 00:54:07,878
Absolutely.

1059
00:54:07,898 --> 00:54:09,208
And if anything too, right?

1060
00:54:09,228 --> 00:54:13,668
It's the long game of making sure
that the staff and those decision

1061
00:54:13,668 --> 00:54:17,648
makers know that the ocean belongs
to everyone, and everyone deserves

1062
00:54:17,648 --> 00:54:21,668
a say, no matter what you like to do
in the ocean or not do in the ocean.

1063
00:54:22,254 --> 00:54:23,054
Absolutely.

1064
00:54:23,114 --> 00:54:24,274
That was said perfectly.

1065
00:54:24,334 --> 00:54:25,394
I absolutely love it.

1066
00:54:25,654 --> 00:54:30,134
Uh, speaking of said perfectly, don't
forget, that, uh, we wanna promote your

1067
00:54:30,164 --> 00:54:32,984
podcast- Oh, yes … uh, Fish On Air.

1068
00:54:33,304 --> 00:54:36,514
Uh, you know, speaking of things said
perfectly, you can subscribe to it.

1069
00:54:36,514 --> 00:54:38,774
I assume it's on every podcast, app.

1070
00:54:38,814 --> 00:54:41,984
I, I, well, I look at Apple, so, and
Spotify, and I've seen them on there.

1071
00:54:42,274 --> 00:54:43,894
Uh, so, so- Yeah … go
subscribe to there.

1072
00:54:43,904 --> 00:54:47,364
Listen to, the last episode was on
El Nino, uh, and talking about fish.

1073
00:54:47,784 --> 00:54:48,424
Check it out.

1074
00:54:48,454 --> 00:54:51,764
I think it's super important, that we
support these podcasts, because this is

1075
00:54:51,764 --> 00:54:53,474
where you get all the good information.

1076
00:54:53,774 --> 00:54:55,294
and so, uh, so yeah.

1077
00:54:55,324 --> 00:54:55,614
Yeah.

1078
00:54:55,624 --> 00:54:58,164
I have to give you a shout-out
there too, 'cause you were very

1079
00:54:58,164 --> 00:55:01,934
generous with your time and advice,
and helping us get that going, so.

1080
00:55:01,934 --> 00:55:02,221
We need more podcasts- Yeah, thank

1081
00:55:02,221 --> 00:55:02,364
you … out there.

1082
00:55:02,364 --> 00:55:02,774
We need

1083
00:55:02,774 --> 00:55:03,714
more podcasts out

1084
00:55:03,714 --> 00:55:03,944
there.

1085
00:55:03,944 --> 00:55:04,624
We need more

1086
00:55:05,254 --> 00:55:06,504
ocean podcasts.

1087
00:55:06,904 --> 00:55:07,394
Yes.

1088
00:55:07,414 --> 00:55:08,644
Yeah, more ocean podcasts.

1089
00:55:08,804 --> 00:55:12,404
And again, you know, to be honest,
like, as we talk about different

1090
00:55:12,414 --> 00:55:17,517
voices, uh, you know, you, you don't
get a better opportunity to have a

1091
00:55:17,517 --> 00:55:21,207
say, and have different voices say,
is through podcasting and through

1092
00:55:21,207 --> 00:55:25,657
content creation, where you can have
that say, uh, on whatever you want.

1093
00:55:25,687 --> 00:55:31,017
and, people, we all need to speak up
for our own communities and, everybody

1094
00:55:31,017 --> 00:55:35,147
there's people who listen to me who may
not vibe with me and, will vibe with

1095
00:55:35,147 --> 00:55:36,627
you or vibe with both of us, right?

1096
00:55:36,627 --> 00:55:41,187
it's the, that diversity of, of
people to speak from all over the

1097
00:55:41,187 --> 00:55:45,067
world, from wherever you are, whatever
you look like, you know, whatever

1098
00:55:45,097 --> 00:55:46,637
cultural significance you have.

1099
00:55:46,637 --> 00:55:49,477
Like, it's so important to
have that, that diversity.

1100
00:55:49,477 --> 00:55:51,877
So yes, we need more ocean podcasts.

1101
00:55:52,847 --> 00:55:55,007
They need to have one on
MPA, I think, I feel like.

1102
00:55:55,017 --> 00:55:55,477
Yeah.

1103
00:55:55,487 --> 00:55:56,877
You know, like a specific one-
It's its own topic … just on it.

1104
00:55:56,927 --> 00:55:58,707
It's own topic in itself.

1105
00:55:58,707 --> 00:55:59,547
I think it'd be awesome.

1106
00:55:59,567 --> 00:56:01,717
But Anupa, thank you so
much, uh, for coming on.

1107
00:56:01,717 --> 00:56:03,994
Thank you for all the work
that you've been doing, and you

1108
00:56:03,994 --> 00:56:06,134
continue to do, with Fish On Us.

1109
00:56:06,164 --> 00:56:08,814
Uh, I say Fish On Us, 'cause
that's the, it's fishon.us.

1110
00:56:09,044 --> 00:56:10,184
But, uh, with Fish On.

1111
00:56:10,284 --> 00:56:12,034
I really appreciate
everything you've done.

1112
00:56:12,044 --> 00:56:15,384
Bringing your experience, you know,
bringing that network together,

1113
00:56:15,444 --> 00:56:17,974
and this unique approach, and
it's standing up for others.

1114
00:56:18,184 --> 00:56:20,784
It's a brave thing to do, and
it's not- Thank you … uh, that,

1115
00:56:20,784 --> 00:56:22,534
that doesn't come with, with ease.

1116
00:56:22,744 --> 00:56:24,224
I appreciate that from you.

1117
00:56:24,224 --> 00:56:26,694
I have the full respect on
what you're able to do and what

1118
00:56:26,694 --> 00:56:27,804
your colleagues are able to do.

1119
00:56:27,804 --> 00:56:30,744
So, thank you so much for coming, and
thank you for the work that you do.

1120
00:56:31,264 --> 00:56:31,764
Thank you.

1121
00:56:31,804 --> 00:56:32,724
I really appreciate it.

1122
00:56:33,124 --> 00:56:33,414
You bet.

1123
00:56:33,930 --> 00:56:36,340
Thank you, Anupa, for joining
us again on the podcast.

1124
00:56:36,340 --> 00:56:39,920
This is our third time, a hat trick
here is what we call it in Canada.

1125
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,900
Uh, and she is on the podcast
talking about very important things.

1126
00:56:42,900 --> 00:56:47,310
Like, we talked a lot about how,
you know, not using the data and the

1127
00:56:47,310 --> 00:56:51,330
science could be a reason why there's
so much conflict in the first place.

1128
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:54,760
And having, petitions come in and
only looking at certain petitions

1129
00:56:54,770 --> 00:56:58,320
in certain ways and others in a
different way doesn't seem like

1130
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,070
everybody gets a fair shake, right?

1131
00:57:00,070 --> 00:57:03,357
And I think that's the, the problem
with these, processes is that this

1132
00:57:03,357 --> 00:57:09,377
historical need to prioritize certain
communities over others gets in the

1133
00:57:09,377 --> 00:57:12,127
way of actually protecting the area.

1134
00:57:12,187 --> 00:57:13,767
Because everybody should have a say.

1135
00:57:13,767 --> 00:57:16,277
If you live along the coast,
everybody should have a say, and

1136
00:57:16,277 --> 00:57:17,357
everybody needs to have a say.

1137
00:57:17,847 --> 00:57:20,817
Whether that's taken into account
or whether it's valuable to

1138
00:57:20,817 --> 00:57:22,197
the process, doesn't matter.

1139
00:57:22,197 --> 00:57:23,227
People should have a say.

1140
00:57:23,467 --> 00:57:26,757
They're part of a democracy in the U.S.,
they're part of a democracy in California,

1141
00:57:26,997 --> 00:57:28,437
and they need to have that say.

1142
00:57:28,717 --> 00:57:32,207
And when people are not allowing it
to happen for whatever reason, whether

1143
00:57:32,207 --> 00:57:34,987
they're trying to be aggressive with
others and intimidate others, or

1144
00:57:34,987 --> 00:57:39,447
you have a commissioner panel who
is not allowing for safe, reflection

1145
00:57:39,447 --> 00:57:43,517
and safe, uh, speaking abilities,
that gets to be a huge problem.

1146
00:57:43,597 --> 00:57:48,563
So, with that said, uh, you know, check
out these links in the show notes.

1147
00:57:48,563 --> 00:57:52,853
There's gonna be links to fishon.us,
which is gonna go to the petitions.

1148
00:57:53,033 --> 00:57:55,913
You're also gonna see a link
to the podcast that they

1149
00:57:55,913 --> 00:57:57,803
have, called Fish On Air.

1150
00:57:58,063 --> 00:58:00,803
Uh, and of course, you know,
there's links to my social media.

1151
00:58:00,803 --> 00:58:03,063
If you have any questions
or comments about this MPA

1152
00:58:03,063 --> 00:58:04,933
process, please let me know.

1153
00:58:05,073 --> 00:58:07,423
If you're on Spotify,
hit us up with a comment.

1154
00:58:07,423 --> 00:58:09,073
You can tag Anupa, you can tag me.

1155
00:58:09,323 --> 00:58:11,423
Love to have a chance to interact
with you 'cause this is the

1156
00:58:11,423 --> 00:58:12,683
beginning of a conversation.

1157
00:58:12,983 --> 00:58:15,313
There are a lot of things that
we can do better in this process.

1158
00:58:15,313 --> 00:58:16,743
It's not as if it's a failure.

1159
00:58:16,743 --> 00:58:21,303
It's a way of identifying how we can do
better in the future to ensure that people

1160
00:58:21,313 --> 00:58:26,413
have the right to speak, they feel safe
to speak, but also to protect these major

1161
00:58:26,413 --> 00:58:30,743
resources that belong to everybody along
the California coast and California state.

1162
00:58:30,743 --> 00:58:33,963
So, I wanna thank Anupa for
joining us on the podcast.

1163
00:58:34,263 --> 00:58:37,503
I wanna thank Fish On for the work that
they do and for standing up for people

1164
00:58:37,663 --> 00:58:41,793
to make sure they have that right of
freedom of speech, uh, in a safe way.

1165
00:58:41,973 --> 00:58:45,383
And I wanna thank you for listening to
this podcast, because without that, I

1166
00:58:45,383 --> 00:58:46,993
wouldn't be doing this each and every day.

1167
00:58:47,083 --> 00:58:50,533
I do appreciate you, and I do
appreciate the work that you do and

1168
00:58:50,533 --> 00:58:53,623
the work that we can do as a community
to help out with these processes.

1169
00:58:53,633 --> 00:58:57,113
So if you wanna jump on a bus to
Sacramento or you're in the Sacramento

1170
00:58:57,123 --> 00:59:01,163
area or in that area where you can go
to these meetings, join the meeting,

1171
00:59:01,553 --> 00:59:06,163
be respectful, make sure people can
speak, and you get your voice out there

1172
00:59:06,193 --> 00:59:07,873
as well as part of this community.

1173
00:59:07,883 --> 00:59:08,873
We would love to see that.

1174
00:59:08,873 --> 00:59:11,883
If you do go to that meeting and you
wanna talk to me after, I would love to

1175
00:59:11,883 --> 00:59:13,673
hear your experience at that meeting.

1176
00:59:13,673 --> 00:59:16,893
But thank you so much for joining
us on today's episode of the How

1177
00:59:16,893 --> 00:59:18,103
to Protect the Ocean podcast.

1178
00:59:18,113 --> 00:59:19,073
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

1179
00:59:19,083 --> 00:59:19,693
Have a great day.

1180
00:59:19,693 --> 00:59:21,913
We'll talk to you next time,
and happy conservation.