Come for the Impact, Stay for the People: Inside Surfrider Canada

0:00 Do you ever feel disconnected from ocean action? Like, you see all these organizations, the big organizations who are doing amazing work, don't get me wrong, but sometimes you just don't feel like you're a part of it. You can contribute to a petition or to a campaign, or maybe provide a donation, but you're not really necessarily doing the work, which would, might be fun and might be able to join a community. there are ways you can do that, and one way is with Surfrider Foundation Canada, or Surfrider in general. But today I have Lilly Woodbury, who is the campaigns and storytelling director of Surfrider Foundation Canada, and she's here to talk about what it's like to work at Surfrider, what it's like to be a part of the community, how you can start a chapter with Surfrider Foundation Canada, because they're looking for people to start chapters all across Canada and the territories.

0:45 And we're also gonna be talking about plastic pollution and how Surfrider is working with, with businesses, not against businesses, working with businesses to get them to change the way they look at plastic and the way they divvy out plastic, and to try and use more reuse and alternatives. and it's just a great, story of positive action that's happened, not only for the ocean, but for everybody, for land, for freshwater, for the marine area. And this is with people who are, on a volunteer basis, working with chapters, joining communities, and they're being a part of this wonderful community of environmental community members, and I think that's just amazing. So we're gonna talk all about that on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast with Lilly Woodbury.

1:28 She's gonna be on the podcast again, I'm gonna tell you that right now. But she is here to talk all about plastic pollution, how Canada's attacking it, how Surfrider is attacking it, and working with businesses to attack it, and it's a great interview, so here's that interview with Lilly. Enjoy, and I'll talk to you after. Hey, Lilly. Welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about Surfrider Foundation Canada? Hey, Andrew. Thank you so much for having me, and I've been with Surfrider for 10 years, so I think I'm ready. I think today, with you, I'm, for the first time, I am ready. So we chose a good day. I love it. I love the enthusiasm. I mean, it is typical of people working in and around Surfrider, I found.

2:08 The enthusiasm that people have that I've met from Surfrider, whether they're volunteers, whether they're working for them, there's just this enthusiasm that people are just like, "I wanna get stuff done. I'm excited to work on this." And I think it's great. So I'm looking forward to this. This is gonna be a lot of fun. Today, we're gonna be talking about a whole gambit of things. We're gonna talk about yourself. We're gonna get to know a little bit about you. We're gonna get to know, like, how you came to work with Surfrider 10 years ago, and also, like, what Surfrider's been up to, especially in Canada. Like it's been around for a while, but it feels like it's still new, and it's kinda rolling out throughout Canada, so I'm very curious to ask some questions about that. And then we're getting into some of the campaigns that you've run, especially around plastic pollution, and changing the culture around plastic pollution, which I think is super important, especially, here in Canada, because plastic is just everywhere.

2:53 And so I think a lot of us just don't think about it in a lot of ways. So I'm looking forward to the strategy. And then we're both communications people, so we love talking about storytelling and communications, so we'll just pepper that in throughout the whole thing. So it's gonna be a lot of fun. but first, before we get into all of that, Lilly, why don't you just let us know who you are and what you do? Great question. I'm still figuring that out. And I'm a Gemini. I'm a triple Gemini, so I'm different day to day. Got- How I will be tomorrow will be different than the next day, so. I love that Yeah. I'm Lilly. I use she/her pronouns. I'm the campaigns and storytelling director with Surfrider Foundation Canada. And as you mentioned, I mentioned, I've been with Surfrider for the last decade.

3:33 And what I love most about our work is that we are campaign-focused. And for anyone unfamiliar with what that looks like, we are always trying to win campaigns, and that is results in a governing body making a decision that favors the ocean, beaches, waves, aquatic ecosystems, and the communities that depend on them. And then of course, all of the communications that surround that. and it's a lot. Like, I think, I don't think people realize how many projects that Surfrider has been a part of, or is a part of, or is going to be a part of. You have your hands in seems like everything in a very positive way to push things forward and to push policy forward. I mean, we've had Chad Nelsen on and a, bunch of other people from Surfrider in the US on.

4:16 Obviously, Chad is, the CEO and the head of Surfrider. and just everything that they've been able to do, everybody's been able to accomplish, with a network of volunteers. Smaller staff amount, and although, that's been growing, which is great. But also just, like, a network almost worldwide, but especially in the US and now in Canada, of volunteers and chapters and clubs to be able to help push everything forward for a better environment and for a better protection, which especially in Canada, is needed. We seem to go a little, a couple feet forward and then a lot of feet back, and then a couple of feet forward and a lot of feet back, and we need people to stand up and fight for our citizens. So I think it's great that you get to be a part of Surfrider to do that.

4:56 How did all that happen? Like, talk to me a little bit about how you started working with Surfrider and what you were doing before that. For sure. And so, and to back up, I should mention that Surfrider began in the US in 1984, and they are really the model that we wanna work towards. And as an organization for people who maybe haven't listened to Chad, we work on clean water, plastic reduction, beach access, ocean protection, and, yeah, plastic reduction. Oh, and coast and climate. Yes. That's the fifth one. And so the US, they're working on all those focus areas, and they're winning campaigns locally, statewide, and nationally, and that is the model that we wanna work towards here in Canada, and we are gonna continue to move closer to. But we haven't been operating as long.

5:38 We've been here since 2007 in Canada, so we've got some catching up to do, but the US is an incredible model. And with Surfrider, I stumbled upon it. I had just finished my undergraduate degree in environmental studies and cinema studies at the University of Toronto, so not too far from you. There we go. yeah. And that was 2011 to 2015. And what's wild is that in that degree there wasn't one course on plastic pollution. I knew it was bad. I knew that waste was a problem. I knew that, you know, you see litter, you're, we're socialized, okay, litter's not a good thing, right? But there wasn't really any education on what are plastics, why are they a pollutant, why is this a problem, let's look at the life cycle of it, And so then after university, I started volunteering with a lot of different organizations because I wanted to get my foot in the door, and it's not easy to break into the environmental sector.

6:26 There's not a lot of organizations. A lot of it is volunteer. And so I started getting involved with different groups, but I found that they weren't really utilizing, as you would say, the enthusiasm that Surfrider has, and that I had. And so it was kinda like, show up and run the door, not we're gonna help you step through the door and help you build capacity and help you realize some of these greater skills. And so then I just found that there was a Surfrider meeting happening in Tofino after my undergrad, and I was like, "Okay, I'll just go." Like, what is Surfrider? I'd never heard of it. I was like, I'm a surfer. Like, I'll go check it out. Yeah. And I remember meeting my friend Michelle Hall, who was the chair at the time of the chapter here, the Pacific Rim chapter, and they had just gotten restarted.

7:10 Like, the chapter had been dormant here for years. And they got started because the beaches here were covered in plastic pollution. Mmm. And we've got a huge tourism economy with loads of single use items being produced. At that point, we were generating the highest waste per capita in the province at our landfill, so, like, it was a real problem. Wow. And so I showed up to that meeting, and I think I just went off 'cause I was like, "Here's, who I am, here's what I wanna do. I wanna make a big difference in this world. Like, sign me up." I remember getting an email from her that night that was, like, paragraphs. I think she saw something in me. She's like, "Okay, this kid has got something." Like, she's driven. Yeah. So I was basically like, let's do this." And so I came on board as a volunteer, and that was back in February of 2016.

7:53 And we just started running different campaigns, so the campaign to ban plastic straws, then plastic bags, and then it followed with cutlery, polystyrene containers, and as most recently, plastic water bottles here in Tofino in April of this year. And besides bags, we were the first town, and Ucluelet, which we also work in, the town next to us, to ban all those items. So yeah, that's kinda how I- Wow … got started. And people always say, "Follow your passion." Don't do it, 'cause not everyone knows what their passion is. And there's so much pressure Follow your curiosity Absolutely. I completely agree. I find there are some places, like when people come in enthusiastic, like you do, and I've met a lot of people, I was the same way, and I was like, "Look, I just wanna help.

8:35 I wanna have an impact on the ocean. I need to do something." I feel like a lot of places don't like that enthusiasm. Whether it's environmental science, ocean science. I haven't had a lot of experience in the advocacy and campaign-driven type of organizations, but I found, like, when you come in like, with that amount of enthusiasm, you kinda get rejected a little bit, because like, no, this person's not real, like, they're not gonna be that enthusiastic. I don't know what the worry is. But I love it. I think to have people who are that driven to be able to accomplish something is what we need, in Canada, and we need to come at it from a more enthusiastic way and motivated way to get stuff done, and to be able to speak to different people, and to have that personality to go out there and say, "Hey, like, this needs to change."

9:19 I love that. We're gonna touch a lot on plastic today, but, like, that's a big fight. Even back then, this is before the national ban on plastics, this is what you're talking about is when you went into the town. when you approach people before this ban, and even before a lot of people in Canada knew that plastics was a problem, how did you approach them? And what was their reaction when you and your colleagues approached them about, having that discussion around plastics? Were they just like, "Get outta here," like, "What are you talking about?" Like, "I just bought it because it was available." what was that like? That's such a good question, and I feel like in the beginning, people looked at me like I had multiple heads. You gotta remember, this was back in 2016. Yeah. And at that point, it was right before plastic pollution was gonna blow up on the global stage.

10:02 Mm-hmm. Like, it was really around 2017, 2018, following the straw in the turtle's nose video, and then, like, it just blew up all of a sudden, and then everybody knew about it. But right before that- going to businesses and trying to explain it, they're kinda like, "What?" Like, "What are you talking about? Why does this matter?" Mm-hmm. And so it was a good lesson in meeting people where they are at, and never blaming and shaming, understanding, okay, there's not a lot of education on this. Even I went to university for environmental studies, which most people don't, and it still wasn't talked about. Yeah. So someone who's got a business degree, they're especially, how would they know about it unless they're going about in their own time researching? Mm-hmm. So it was really about, yeah, meeting people where they are at, and always connecting to people on their values of understanding, okay, what matters to them as a business, and how can I speak that language to make them care about this?

10:52 And luckily for us, the businesses here are so environmentally minded- Yeah … Tofino and Ucluelet, this whole west coast of Vancouver Island really is a leader in environmentalism in so many ways that I can get into later. And so it's a real source of pride for businesses. So it's really tapping into that, and once we got going, it was like one of those things, you get a few businesses on board, make them the leaders- Yeah promote them, make it flashy, and then other businesses are like, "Oh, that's cool. I wanna do that." And it becomes like this positive conformist thing. Yeah. like that. The whole, like, social tipping point. Once you get a small committed group- Yeah … you can get it rolling to the rest. so was it the fact that they were more concerned about the environment because they live in a place that, we know BC in general is a little bit more environmentally aware of some of the things that have happened, or that could happen, and so they tend to be a little bit more environmentally focused?

11:42 I can imagine a lot of business people would just be like, "Well, all of our supplies come from plastic. Like, where do I go differently?" like, does Surf Ride have to take them through, like, the business process of, like, sourcing out new items? Or, like, what was their alternative to the plastic? 'Cause they must have had to buy something else. and then did that cause a lot more cost? Yeah. So what we do is we work with the suppliers, there's a few different suppliers in the places that we operate, and find out, okay, what do they have that is the alternative? Yeah. As much as possible, we're always recommending to businesses, use reusables. Right. Use reusables for dine-in, accept reusables for takeout, and unless people absolutely need it, because, people might have certain disabilities and they might- Sure … need a straw.

12:22 It's like, keep those things on hand, when people request them. Yeah. And course, though, not every business has the infrastructure to be able to do reusables at this point. Right. Like, there's just some, like, key barriers in Tofino and in Tofino- Sure … like, there's a housing crisis, so they can't get more staff to wash all the dishes. Mm-hmm. And so some businesses have wanted to s- go towards locally compostable containers. And at that point, there was, like, another wave of education for us to learn and us to do on, like, okay, what is the best locally compostable? Yeah. Because the hard, rigid bioplastics are also problematic and made using all kinds of GMO crops like corn- Mm-hmm … sugarcane. Super industrial, gnarly, don't really compost that well, aren't really regulated, so they can contain conventional fossil fuel plastics.

13:08 And so what we've done is try to get businesses onto reusables as much as possible, and if that's 100% not possible, getting them on to locally compostable fiber-based. Okay. And so that fiber-based, if it goes into a ditch, it's gonna break down. If it goes into the ocean, it's gonna break down. It can go to the composting facility we have here and break down, because it's essentially a paper product. Yeah. Yeah. Which makes it a lot easier. Now, first of all, I love how you're speaking and engaging with the businesses and the suppliers. So you're, kind of- Mm-hmm … like taking away a lot of the questions right off the bat and giving them information. It's not attacking them, saying, "What you're doing is bad." It's more of like, "Hey, by the way, here are some of the alternatives we'd love for you to go through and do," paper fiber or, Yeah … reusable and that kind of stuff.

13:52 Not going after individuals, 'cause I feel like that's difficult. Has that been tried by Surf Ride? Like, have you guys tried that? Of like going after individuals? Well, or just like talking to individuals, like, off the street and just being like, what are your thoughts on, like, plastic?" they probably have like a Gatorade bottle or some kind of bottle in their hand that , they're just drinking out of 'cause of the sake of drinking out of. We've always approached it, at least with my time in Surfrider, but I think pretty much all of Surfrider does the same approach, because we're always trying to change the systems and seeing this as a system design problem rather than like, this is an individual's problem. Right. So we're trying to educate the public. So we'll do film nights. We're doing beach cleanups, and then people can come and do the cleanups instead of us preaching at people, which doesn't really work that well.

14:33 Mm-hmm. They can see it for themselves. You get people out there on a cleanup and you're collecting tens of thousands of bottles, you're probably not gonna wanna buy that Gatorade bottle or water bottle. For sure. And so it's like you're showing people, showing films, doing other educational things that are fun and engaging, and not blaming and shaming. Like, we know that blaming and shaming as messaging does not work. It turns people off. And so there's that whole, like, study of work on moral reframing, and that when messaging leads with guilt, it doesn't really work. Yeah. What it does work is when it's positive, it's solutions, it's looking at like, "Hey, this isn't your fault, but here's something that we can all do to change it." 'Cause ultimately, like, It's not everyday people who came up with plastic and made- True … everyth- product and packaging that way.

15:17 We wanna be going after the plastics industry and the government, our governments who are sanctioning them to exist in that way. Yeah. That it's become so, what's the word, omnipresent. Yeah. No, for sure. And I think, that's what happens, too, is a lot of people will kinda like blame individuals, for a lot of the uses that we're in the… But it is a systematic thing. It's like, how do we stop buying plastic when a lot of the stuff is in plastic, or how do we, stop, using, like now the big thing is like don't use AI, which, I get there's like a footprint to that. And they're going after individuals. But once you put in one command or prompt, then hey, like you're damaging the environment. Meanwhile, there are companies there that are putting in like billions and billions of billions of data points in that are using all of the AI that would actually have an effect on a data center.

16:03 So there's a lot of different things that a lot of individuals get blamed for. And I feel like a lot of plastic advocates in the companies, they'll come down, it's like, "Well, you have this phone, and it's made of plastic, and you can't get away from it. And you're still using it, so you're a hypocrite," and this and that. And I think it just goes against everything and people feel guilty for it, and it stops them from moving forward in this type of atmosphere. And so I like the fact that you're going in and you're having these… Like, I mean, Surfrider's great 'cause it, it is… I feel like I know you talked about bringing people together, doing some fun things, education and beach cleanups and things like that. But I remember talking to Chad about this on a recent talk that he had, and I said How do you get people into these communities? He says, he's like, "I like to say they come for the impact, but they stay for the people." Like, they stay for the community 'cause it's people who want to be outdoors, who want to, talk about the environment, who want to do better for the environment and have all these different ideas, and that's the community that a lot of people these days need.

16:56 Like, we are in a system of, like, isolation, coming out of a pandemic, phones in our faces all the time. It's difficult to find social circles and things, and people like… I know it's been difficult for, like, just trying to get out with people. It's just starting to feel like normal again, if we can ever get back to that kind of normal, where we're starting to get around people. I think having groups like Surfrider, it's almost like a social thing where you can come out and you can do an activity, that's environmentally focused, or a movie or whatever that might be, and then you get to know different people that like to be outdoors and like to talk about the environment. And I think that's such a plus of Surfrider to have that. Do you find that's what people do, they stay for the community?

17:37 Absolutely people stay for the community, and I think that's such a powerful part of it that at this time, with the amount of technology we have, that there is a lot of isolation happening, and there is this, like, loneliness epidemic. And so if we can bridge that and bring people together, that's going to make them wanna stay in it longer. It's also again, a part of that cultural shift because when you have people in groups doing film nights or art workshops or all the different gamut of activities that we do, we're working to shift the attitudes and the behaviors. And people doing it together, it helps entrench it even further of like, "Okay, this is our identity as a group." And then you bring those identities moving forward.

18:19 And so, yeah, I think people definitely stay for that, and that's an important part of it. That's one of the things that I love about Surfrider is those tight-knit communities that you can have. And there's no, like, commitment to it, but people will tend to go out because they enjoy what they enjoy, and they enjoy being out in the ocean. To be honest, if I were out in Tofino, I'd probably wanna be outside as much as possible as well. Exactly. And Canada has all these different landscapes across the country that are unique and gorgeous in their own rights. And, Surfrider Foundation Canada, can you talk about how that was formed? 'Cause I know at one point, you guys were attached to the American arm of Surfrider, and now it's kind of like your own entity in a way with the connection to Surfrider in some sort of way.

18:59 Can you just talk about a little bit how that works? Yeah, so as I mentioned, Surfrider, it's a charity. Was started in the US 42 years ago now. And the chapters in Canada, first starting with the Pacific Rim chapter here on the west coast of Vancouver Island, the Vancouver chapter, and the South Vancouver Island chapter in Victoria, and near Victoria, they were all kinda grandfathered in. Like, they just kinda popped up organically- Right … were being run under the umbrella of the US, and I feel like the US was kinda like, "This is fine." Like, I think There was so much change management that it was like, "Okay, we're just gonna- Yeah … let this slide. And sure, these guys are close to the border, we'll just run with it." But I think it was kinda just started organically and kinda unofficially.

19:40 Yeah. But then we just continued to grow and get more donations to run bigger campaigns, to then more chapters wanting to get started and more student clubs wanting to get started, and they were kind of like, "Okay, they're not going away." Yeah. If anything, they are getting stronger, and we started taking more resources. And I'm really grateful for the US because they had to basically, like, cater to our very different legal system, our policies, insurance. Like, they had to do everything twice for us because it's a different country with different rules and regulations. Yeah. And it kind of got to the point where they were like, "If you want to grow more, you're gonna need to follow Europe, Australia, all of the international affiliates that already exist." So those two places.

20:23 We're also in Morocco, Senegal, Japan. And so it's like you can become an international affiliate just like them. Okay. And you'll run autonomously. You'll have your own head office, and you'll be responsible for all of these operational and administrative systems. And that way, you can grow across the country. You can support the creation of new chapters and clubs from coast to coast, which is what we want to do. We want to be in every province and territory- Yeah with community-led chapters and student-based clubs. And so in 2022, in March, we affiliated, and we became the newest affiliate in the world, and we've been growing since then. That's amazing. So it's, that was 2022 you said? Yeah. Yeah. And s- 2022, so fairly young, like in terms of being your own entity- Exactly and, and, and working.

21:07 That's amazing. Exactly. I think one of the things that people don't realize is the fact that you guys work on campaigns. I think that people think, oh, it's a community thing, a lot of beach cleanups, like, a lot of stuff like that. But you guys work with, like, try to change policy. You work to effect change. when that first started for those three chapters, what were the things that you guys were working on? I know you weren't part of it when it first happened, but do you know like, what was the major campaigns at that point? It was plastics as well. Like, before- Okay … I came on board in 2016, they were already running a Ban the Bag campaign in Victoria. So Victoria was doing it first before Tofino and Ucluelet. And work on clean water with wastewater treatment plants, so that was a big victory in Victoria.

21:48 Okay. Was getting that wastewater treatment plant in place so the sewage is not just being flushed into the ocean, which is obviously- Right no bueno, not good. No, not good at all. And Vancouver, they were actually responsible for campaigning the federal ban on microbeads, so all the plastic microbeads in our consumer products, which was a bit unusual 'cause you don't usually have a chapter working on national policy. But they were at that point because, again, we didn't have a head office. Right. And so those were some of the things being worked on at that point. And yeah, when I came on board, I started working again on the single-use plastic bans. And the campaigning is so important because the goal is to make all forms of cleanups obsolete. Like, here in Tofino- Mm-hmm … we were doing cleanups, and we were collecting hundreds of pounds on each beach in 2016, hundreds to thousands of single-use items at a time.

22:36 But from, again, this cultural change, more businesses and people doing their own cleanups, people littering less, better public waste management, more education, we actually don't have to lead local cleanups anymore. We don't do them on the beaches here. Even when I- Wow … if I go walk the beach right now- Yeah I will be hard-pressed to find anything. Wow. And in just 10 years, that is an amazing shift. Huge. It's a huge shift. And so now we focus in this area, and also, like, in Victoria and Vancouver, same thing, the beaches are so much cleaner than they used to be. Yeah. And again, from, like, we know that these local bans work, and then now that have, like, trickled into the provincial and national bans. And from around the world, all the studies that have been done to measure the efficacy of these mechanisms, we know that they- Yeah … work.

23:20 And so we have to keep going 'cause there's so many other plastic regulations which we can get into after because- For sure … the single-use plastics are the literal tip of the iceberg. Yeah. And so, yeah, now we're focusing more on remote and underwater cleanups because they're still inundated with the solidified oil spill that is plastic. Mm-hmm. But that's the goal the world over is to make all the cleanups obsolete. Same with water quality monitoring. Let's get the data from our water quality monitoring to address the upstream sources. Let's use our coast and climate campaigns to address the sources of fossil fuel pollution and shift to clean energy. Mm-hmm. So that, again, like my whole job is to get myself out of a job. And then I can just podcast with you, Andrew.

24:01 There you go. let's do that. That'd be awesome. I wanna do that. Yeah, for sure. Like, I'm always amazed by what people can do when they, put their minds to it. And I wanna go back to, like, the beginning before Surfrider Foundation Canada got put out on its own. Were the, chapters all volunteer at that point, even working on campaigns? And so these are people who are working, like, kinda part-time, like, as a passion project with the chapters to get things changed and to move, legislation forward and policy forward, and talking to governments and talking to businesses and everything. That was all done by volunteers. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah. There was one staff in Victoria- Okay … when I came on board, who's now our acting executive director, Jillian Montgomery.

24:46 She's awesome. Awesome. Shout out to Jill. And, but at that point, yeah, everyone else was volunteer. Pacific Rim, when we were first getting these victories, we were all volunteer. It's all volunteers. But then I became the first staff for Pacific Rim one year in. Okay. And so I was one of the first staff in Canada. Okay. You were mentioning like, you were getting campaign contributions and things like that. Like, people were giving you money to get this stuff done. Can you talk a little bit about, like, what type of businesses , or grants or things like that that first started to really legitimatize the Surfrider actions at the beginning? Yeah. At the very beginning, we had some really big contributions from local businesses, and that's great. We wanna work with local businesses as much as possible because- Yeah it helps them advance their corporate social environmental responsibility, and obviously helps us achieve our goals.

25:31 Mm-hmm. And as much as possible, we wanna be doing this work in collaboration. Like, we need to- Mm-hmm … eradicate the silos as much as possible, move away from 100% purity because you know what? Things are never gonna be 100% pure- No … and perfect, and if we die on that hill, we get- Yeah … purity, but we will be ineffective. Yeah. And so in the beginning, one of the biggest sponsors was the Wickaninnish Inn. They're a really big resort in Tofino. They're fantastic and so ahead of the curve on everything environment. And so they sponsored us. Jamie's Whaling Station, same thing, a super environmentally, socially progressive business. They also sponsored us. We received a few government grants, and that's was enough to get us started. Yeah. And so then they hired me, which was sweet. At that point I was, like, 23 and so scared.

26:12 I was like, "What have I done? I'm an imposter." They're like, "No, it's gonna be good. It's you." Yeah. It's you. That's awesome. And I'm grateful. And I'm grateful that they took a chance on me, and it's also, like, speaks to the power of believing in each other and lifting people up. Mm-hmm. And I think that's what's powerful about Surfrider that other organizations didn't do with me, is our whole theory of change is like, let's invest in people on the ground as coastal activists. Let's help them realize their skills within this movement, which is different for each person. Hundred percent. We've all got different skills and different ways that we can plug in, and you didn't have to go to school to be able to do that. So we wanna support people, train them, and by doing that, we build these strong communities of coastal activists, which can then, again, creates that cultural shift and can also generate the political will necessary to pass stronger environmental laws, policies, regulations.

26:59 And so that's what it's all about, is like, let's invest in people. As more we can come together as people to change the systems, the more we are going to win. And we know through, again, the social tipping point research, that you don't need a majority of people. You need, like, 5 to 10% of people who are committed- Yeah and they can shift the norms and the culture of the entire population. It's incredible. this reinvigorates my enthusiasm for, for- Good … for action in Canada. Like, I just, I love this, aspect. Now, one thing you mentioned, before we get more to the plastics, the issues there, Surfrider wants to expand and have more chapters across Canada. That's right. If somebody's listening to this and they're in Canada, how can they inquire about either being part of a chapter or starting a chapter on their own?

27:46 They can call me. Yeah. Yeah. Add my number. We'll talk. There's a few steps. So to have, and again, for folks who might be unfamiliar, you can have a student-based club in your high school, university, or college, or you can have a community-led chapter in your city or the town that you live in. And usually, like, with a chapter, we'll have a city or there'll be a cluster of towns. Like where I am, it's Tofino and Ucluelet, so it's the whole peninsula together. And so to get started, they want to find a small group, like five to nine people, to run the executive committee. Mm-hmm. The executive committee's volunteer, and they're making the decisions for the chapter. So they're figuring out what campaign they wanna do, what program, what events, and so they're really leading the chapter.

28:30 So you wanna find that group of people who's gonna be able to run it. You wanna find a little bit of cash, because chapters are responsible for funding their own programs and campaign activities. Mm-hmm. As the head office, we cover things like IT, bookkeeping, all of our- Mm-hmm … compliance. There's, like, a long list of services that we provide to chapters and clubs that we cover, but them funding their own initiatives, they have to do that. But we are a registered charity, so we can provide charitable receipts. Yeah. So we want them to find a few thousand dollars to get started. We also want them to connect with the indigenous nation on whose land they'll be operating on and get a letter of support, because we don't wanna just be coming in and being- Right … like, "Okay, we are operating here now." Like, we wanna move away from a colonial way of- Mm-hmm operating- Of course … and build those relationships right out of the gate.

29:18 Yeah. So it's like build those relationships, have that conversation, and figure out, like, what's that indigenous nation's priorities when it comes to coastal marine and aquatic. Mm. 'Cause often from my experience, they know best. They're like, "Work on this. We're super busy. You tackle this." Yeah. And it's like, okay, awesome, now we know what problem to work on that's a priority. Yep. Yep. And that's a way that we can be showing up in consensual allyship, and working together as well. Like, a lot of our campaigns and programs have been in collaboration with First Nations in British Columbia. So that's also the really big thing- Yeah … is that relationship building right out of the gate. So those are the main components. And then figuring out, yeah, what campaign do you wanna work on, what program, 'cause it's like, is there a need?

29:58 What's the problem that you wanna solve that relates to clean water, plastic reduction, ocean or lake protection, beach access? So, yeah Okay. And it doesn't have to be marine. It could be lakes, rivers- That's right … you know, whatever that might be, Surfrider wants to cover it all. Like, they wanna cover all- Yeah … like the aquatic stuff. And you don't have to be- All aquatic … a surfer to start a chapter or to be a part of a chapter in Surfrider. Is that correct? You do not. If I'm not a surfer. You do not. Most people aren't surfers. Right, right, yeah. And those of us who are surfers, like me, are very average on the best of days. You don't gotta be pro. You don't have to be a surfer. You just have to have a will and a desire- Yeah … and wanting to make a difference.

30:39 Love it. Which we need. We need all hands on deck right now. Like, we need to- Agree … bring the heat greater than this country- Agree … greater than the wildfires burning this country. We gotta come together. Absolutely. and just to go over So there's South Vancouver Island, Vancouver, Pacific Rim, Mid-Island, and Atlantic chapter. Those are the- Yes … chapters that are so far. And then there's some clubs at University of Victoria, Dalhousie, Vancouver Island University, University of Toronto, and then, yeah. And then, so if you go on the website, you wanna open a chapter or a club, you can go on there, follow the steps, and people can, take a look at that, so. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. Exactly. And hopefully we'll have one near you in Collingwood, Ontario. Yeah. So if anyone is in Ontario, hit us up.

31:19 We would love to get a chapter, a few… I'd love to see a few chapters on all the Great Lakes, Lake Superior- Yeah … Lake Ontario, Lake Huron. Yeah, I mean, there are dedicated people to all the different lakes. I worked for, Fisheries and Oceans Canada and Environment Canada for a bit in the area, and I remember when we used to have the biodiversity assessment meetings, like Lake Superior they had such buy-in from the local businesses, from the, local townships and communities. it was amazing. So I think if people know how to do it and wanna get involved, I think it's a great opportunity for people to get involved. Now let's talk about some of these like people can take action and stuff. and we talked a lot about plastics. Obviously plastics is a huge deal. There is a plastic ban nationally which helps. It's under the single-use plastics for, I believe it's six different types of materials- That's right … right?

32:03 And we have seen that come into play. We don't see styrofoam, containers anymore, and like you can actually see that happen. Now, so from a plastics perspective, you talked a lot about locally what you've done in Tofina, in Ucluelet. Vancouver and Victoria, they've done well as well? Like they've been able to get like local bans. You can actually get local bans. is that the case? Yeah, so Victoria, they have a ban on plastic bags, it was as of last year, which we also campaigned on, businesses who are food service can't have single use for dine-in. So they have to have reusables for dine-in. And again, we'd love to get that- For sure … the province and the feds to also adopt that, because we'd be avoiding millions of single use- Oh my gosh … items across the country every day if they had to have reusable for dine-in.

32:49 Yeah. And so yeah, in British Columbia, the way it works is local governments, 'cause it's like an area of concurrent jurisdiction with the province. Mm-hmm. So they have to go to the province and ask permission. So one of our campaigns right now, Mug Movement, is getting a ban on plastic and bioplastic coffee cups and lids in Tofino and Ucluelet. Tofino wants to move forward, they have to get approval from the province to be able to do that and to get- Okay the authority to ban that item. And then rather than what we go to the province with is like, "Let's not do a patchwork of every single municipality having to come to you. We've proven to you, done a case study, it works. People are fine. People are surviving somehow." Now you implement it provincially, and same federally Yeah So we want both to continue expanding their list of items that are banned, and to take more ambitious action on plastics.

33:41 Right. Which the feds now they can do because as January this year they won that Federal Court of Appeal case. Basically there was a court case brought forward by big chemical industry- Mm-hmm … to the federal government to say, "Hey, you don't have the authority and the jurisdiction to ban plastics under-" Mm-hmm the Canadian Environmental Protection Act. But the Court of Appeal said no, they do, which we knew all along. Yeah, exactly. And that's incredible 'cause basically the federal government, they have the authority to do more work to address plastic pollution. And so we want them to be more ambitious and to do more by addressing chemicals of concern, by eliminating more plastics, by investing in more refill and reuse systems across the country, addressing ghost gear.

34:28 Mm-hmm. All of these various items. So people can go onto our Take Action page, surfrider.ca/takeaction, and they can email their MPs, which is exactly that message of, we know the federal government has the full authority to address this problem. Email your MP to say, "Hey, this is really important and we need to continue pushing the envelope on this issue." Yeah. And can I say, I'm on the website right now. The names for the Take Action is awesome. You have, foam free waters was fine. Bye bye mini bottles. Love that. And then hold your butt. Yeah … I assume that's a cigarette butt, type of campaign. Is that what that is, hold your butt? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, hold onto your butt. Yeah. I think it's a quote from- Hold onto your butt, yeah … I think it's a quote from Snakes on a Plane.

35:09 I think so, yeah. I think so. Is that what it's called? Yeah. Snakes on a Plane? Yeah. Yeah. So it's from that. Yeah, we try to get creative with the name so it's memorable. Yeah, for sure. Don't take ourselves too seriously. Right. Which I think is good. Yeah, no, absolutely. Now let me ask you this. You mentioned earlier the scene like in 2018, 2017, 2018, I can't remember when the video came out. the plastic straw in the sea turtle's nose. I interviewed both people involved in that video, and then four months later Nathan Robinson, who was the guy who actually pulled it out, sent me another video, and it was an olive ridley sea turtle 70 kilometers down the beach from where the plastic straw incident happened he took out a plastic fork from the nose of this sea turtle.

35:49 And so, like, when I remember when they first had him on for that, I was like, "Hey, what are the odds of a plastic… Like, have you ever seen it, or has anybody ever published on it or anything like that where this is a normal thing?" He's like, "No, it's gotta be, like, a million to one." Four months later, he sends me this video. He's like, "We need to talk." And it's this plastic fork that had been stuck in this olive ridley sea turtle's nose, and he had to pull it out. It was on a beach when it was, laying eggs. and so that catapulted a whole movement of plastics. I think it helped with Canadian federal government to kinda take heed. But then it kinda took a turn. In Canada as well as other places, people are like, "I don't care what happens to sea turtles. I can't stand paper straws." And then just, like, a rebellion against the straw, which kinda missed the point of single-use plastics, I think of the whole campaigns of, that people were saying.

36:34 I'm like, I always said that the plastic straw was like a gateway plastic to understanding the whole plastic problem that we have. But people, even, like, politicians in the States and in Canada have said, like, "Forget the bags." Like, " it's really inconvenient when you have to pay, like, three bucks for a reusable bag 'cause you forgot your other bags or whatever, like, the government of Ontario's gone back and forth of taking away, the penalty of plastic bags before it got banned. Now plastic straws a lot of people are complaining about, so their government is just like, "Forget it, There's no ban on plastic straws. We're never gonna ban it," and all this kinda stuff. How does Surfrider and the people involved kinda battle that type of culture where there's this thing that's like, "Well, I don't like, paper straws, so I'm gonna go back to plastic straws"?

37:17 Obviously, plastic straws are needed for people, as you mentioned before, with disabilities, that they need plastic straws. It's always been proven and, we're not taking away from that. But for the people who just kind of rebel against the silliest thing, of a plastic straw, con- considering all the other plastics and all the documentation that's come out about, microplastics being in our lungs and in our blood and all this kinda stuff, how do you battle that from a campaign perspective of just saying, "Yeah, well, we understand you don't like this, but this is the major problem. This is what we need to do"? Yeah, it's a great point. There's always going to be contrarians. Mm-hmm. And the truth is that they are a vast minority of people. Mm. A majority of Canadians, it's over 80%, there's been a survey done, over 80% of Canadians want to see action on plastics.

38:00 They like the bans in place. They wanna see the ban expanded. So I feel like it's very manufactured when people are against it, and how that gets blown up in the media. Mm. That feels very manufactured to be like, "Oh, this is way more normal than it actually is." Yeah. And in connection to that, there is a lot of resistance because plastics are the fossil fuel industry plan B. As we decarbonize energy systems, they want to ramp up plastic production to maintain their profit margins. They want to triple plastic production between now and 2060. And so, and the fossil fuel industry is some of the most powerful lobbyists in the world. Mm-hmm. They are constantly lobbying our government. They do not want bans on plastic. They do not. Mm-hmm. Nope.

38:40 That is well-known. Yeah. They want to continue- They'll spend a lot of money to make sure that doesn't happen. Exactly. Yeah. They are trying to make sure that this cultural shift doesn't happen at all odds. So that's the other major part that's happening here. I think what's important is, like, once our consciousness expands, it can't go back to its original dimensions. And I'm so happy you brought up that conversation of how it started from that marine lens. Mm-hmm. Because it started there, and now in the last 10 years it has evolved to be so much more holistic. The Global Plastics Treaty started with the intention of, hey, let's address plastics in the marine environment. Now, from all the research done, from working with frontline communities, fence line communities, we are understanding this as a human rights problem.

39:23 Mm-hmm. Through the entire life cycle, through the extraction of fossil fuels, the production of those plastics, all of the chemicals produced and added into those plastics, all the communities with cancers, rare diseases surrounding these production facilities. We are understanding it as a climate problem because the amount of emissions coming from this production. We are understanding it, of course, as a biodiversity issue. Mm-hmm. We're understanding it as a human health issue. Mm. In the last five years, we both know the amount of headlines that have come out of plastics in our blood- Yeah brain, bones, like actual insanity. Plastics are freaking raining down on us. Mm-hmm. Like, we understand this, the evolution of our consciousness on this issue has expanded so much to understand way more dimensions of this problem.

40:06 That this is not just a waste management problem like the plastics industry is wanting us to believe. Right. The whole life cycle of plastics is problematic, and it hurts people and the planet. And that's why with the Global Plastics Treaty- We need to address the source of it, which is having a cap on plastic production. That we are, let's say ideally right now what we're gonna get in it is reducing production by 40% by 2040. That is the only way we're gonna solve this problem. We have to stop producing so much of it. Yeah. We have to move towards systems for refill and reuse, and using it for the things we absolutely need. Yeah. No, I agree. And I think it's interesting too, 'cause like I live in Ontario. Right now government is very conservative I love the aspect of the… 'cause I'm like, if we go to the province to try and get them to ban plastic pollution, they're probably not gonna listen to us right now.

40:54 But I like the avenue of going local first, talking to local communities, getting local business owners to be like, "Yeah, no, we're good with this." Like, we can do this." Obviously, it's not as easy as I say to do that, but if you can convince a local town, city, whatever that might be, to be like, "Yeah, we're good with this." And then you go to the province and you say, "Hey, like, this city's good with this. Can we get this ban? They're ready to propose it. Can we just get this ban in?" And then work from city to city as you have more people, like, from either Surfrider or other organizations working together to be like, "Yeah, let's use this as a campaign," and start to get into the towns and work with people instead of against people And then you go to the province, and they have to almost be like, "Yeah, okay. we can do this."

41:34 Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I believe that from communities, just like you say, doing this work in countless corners of the world, this is what's made the Global Plastics Treaty conversation possible. Mm-hmm. Because local communities, we can't ban plastic production. There's only so much- Yeah … authority that local governments have. But from all these local governments around the world taking action and saying, "This is a priority. We need to solve this," now it's become clear that we need a global mechanism that can get at the root of this, again, by reducing production, by addressing the chemicals of concern. There's 16,000 chemicals found in plastics, 4,200 of which are hazardous to human health. That is insane. Insane. That is not good. No. We need the global plastics.

42:15 Like, and local governments, they can't address that, but a global treaty holding- Yeah … world governments accountable can. Yeah. So yeah, it's incredible to see the interconnection between all of them and how far we've come. And if people ever feel hopeless, it's like, just look, we've changed in one decade from literally I knew nothing about it in my environmental degree to now the entire world knows about it. That is- Yeah … wild. And you are working on it full time and being like, "Hey, like, we need to stop this." and to be honest, you know the plastic, the World Plastic Treaty is working, 'cause it's getting the attention of the fossil fuel companies. It's getting the attention of the chemical companies. They are sending more lobbyists to those to try and, steer it in different ways, which is frustrating. But that means you know, you know it's going to work at some point and some time.

42:58 I know they've derailed it a few times, but I feel like at some point and some time, people are just gonna be like, "You know what? We actually really need to do this." Like, it's affecting all of our health. And- Yeah … I know it's cheap to make. I know you make money off it, but it's killing us, so we need to change it. And I feel like eventually we'll get there. It may take a while, and it might be frustrating, but I feel like organizations like Surfrider and all the organizations that are working around the world in collaboration to try and get this done, and the countries, it's just a matter of time, I think, which will be really helpful. And hopefully they won't be able to derail it. I hope so. The next round of negotiations is in March 2027, and they're not allowing civil society organizations to even attend it, which is, like, not good for transparency, for hearing civil society organizations, from hearing from indigenous nations- Mm-hmm who should be at that negotiating table.

43:43 But- Well, they're the rights holders … I did. I don't think they're like civil society. They're rights holders. They're not. No, they're not. Yeah, they should be there. Or they're put, they're counted in that. Mm-hmm. They are rights holders, and they should be at that negotiating table, but they are not. I think there's some countries who are bringing them on as delegates, So it's- Yeah … it's already not in a great direction. Like, there's that conflict of interest present, and there should have been a conflict of interest clause. Like, you can't have- Agreed … the fossil fuel industry- Yeah influencing something that they have a direct agenda to make sure that it doesn't work. Yeah. Like- Yes, it's part of their bottom line. It's 33%- Exactly … of their bottom line. Like, that's, that doesn't make sense. Exactly. and where is that? Exactly. Do you know where that is, that meeting in March? No, I don't think they've identified the location yet. but yeah, we need to continue giving it our all and calling on all of our governments to- Yeah … be as ambitious as possible.

44:28 And if it doesn't work under the UN, then do a treaty outside of the UN with all the countries who are the most ambitious. But hopefully- Who wanna do it … we can get this on track because a majority of world countries, there's over 100 countries who are part of this High Ambition Coalition, and they want to see a cap- Yeah on plastic production. There's just a few oil producing countries backed by the fossil fuel lobby who are working to prevent the world majority from moving forward. Yeah. So, like, we can do it. We just have to keep pushing. Like, we gotta give it a fight. Well, let's be honest, we never thought there would be a High Seas Treaty in our lifetime, and we've seen that ratified. And recently- Exactly … as of this recording, we saw it last week by Canada ratified, which is great. There is a big conference coming to Canada in Halifax next year called Our Oceans Conference, which is based off- Yes … of commitments and based off of holding countries accountable for those commitments.

45:16 Because it's in Canada, there's gonna be a lot of decision making and announcements by Canada, which will be great. And the wife of the prime minister is in charge of it, and she has a history in climate action and so forth. Do you think there's gonna be any type of announcement furthering any kind of plastic regulations or anything like that? Have you heard anything coming down the pipeline or anything I know they're working on a tracking system like of plastics- Yeah … throughout it's life. But have you heard anything, if anything's gonna be announced there? I'm, hoping there is, 'cause that would be helpful. I haven't. There's a lot of ENGOs, Surfrider included, and we work on plastics, and we come together as a coalition to talk about it and- Yeah … meet with decision-makers.

45:57 And so I know that we'll have something ready, and I think that we should be trying to get the government to work on something and announce something by that point. Yeah. And to be honest, they need a win. They have been making terrible decisions. We are going so backwards on environment and climate. Mm-hmm. They need a win. They can make it plastics. Yeah. Should be a heck of a lot more other things we won't get into. Mm-hmm. But I really hope that that conference can be a place where they can, again, show more ambition. Yeah. Now is the time to be ambitious. Like, we don't have more time to waste, so. Yeah. I feel like Canada could be a leader in showing economy and environment can grow together and protect together without having one over the other, which I think is an argument we commonly see when it comes to these types of policies that Canada has been changing because of what's been happening in the world and down south, and trade, and everything like that.

46:42 So hopefully one day we'll get there, and I'm hoping our oceans conference will be able to help, that pressure for our government to come out with major announcements and hold them to those commitments I think will be really important. But Lilly, this has been so much fun to be able to have you on. I'd love to invite you back or anybody else from Surfrider Foundation Canada to come back, talk more about, what you guys are up to, the campaigns, the effectiveness of those campaigns. at any point in time, we'd love to have you back. Yeah. I would love to come back. I would love to get into all of the communications and pick your brain. Yeah. So we didn't get a chance . I've got so many questions for you. I wanna dig into it. Right on. So we'll have to do part two communication-based, 'cause I think it's important. How we communicate about this- Agreed … is so integral 'cause it's a matter of getting someone on board versus turning them off, and we need to get as many people coming in as possible- Absolutely moving away from purity and trying to bridge the divides amongst people.

47:30 So I would love to come back and chat about that. And, yeah, thank you for all that you do in covering these topics. It's so important, and you are a great interviewer. Thank you. I appreciate. Well, you're a great interviewer, you. We'd, love to have you back on. We'll talk more about communications and everything that goes around it 'cause we need to solve this crisis right now, you know- We do … uh, more than ever, so. We do. happy to collaborate more and, have you back on. Thanks so much. Thank you so much, Andrew. Thank you, Lilly, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. It was great to have you on. It was great to, feel connected to an action. A campaign like plastic pollution that I feel like a lot of us are just unaware of how much plastic we have in our lives to be honest, and for most people, like I am involved in it, so I look around a little bit more. I'm, more aware of how it works because I see it all the time in the work that I do and in the stories that I cover and how it's in our blood, how it's in our bodies, how it's in our lungs, how it's everywhere.

48:19 It's in the atmosphere, all these little microplastics, and how there are certain businesses out there, companies who are trying to triple the amount of plastic produced, in the next like 10, 20 years. That's not a good thing for us in the future as a human species, and we need to continue to ban plastic pollution in a lot of places where we don't need it. And that's really what it comes down to is we just don't need it, but there are people and businesses who are saying, "We can make money off of this," even off the backs of the health of people. And so it's great to see action happen from a grassroots level like Surfrider Foundation Canada, and they, build upon what's been working not only within Canada but within the US and other international, associate members of Surfrider.

49:00 And I just love the fact that it's people-built that makes me happy. And I am going to look around in Ontario and see what makes sense for me to join, maybe even start a chapter one day for Surfrider in my area, and I think that's really important. So I wanna thank Lilly for coming on. We're gonna put a list, a link to the socials for Surfrider Foundation Canada so you can get in touch, maybe even consider starting a chapter in your area. And I would love to hear your thoughts on this episode. If you're on Spotify and you like to make comments, please do so. Like hit me up in the comments. If you're listening to this on your favorite podcast app, just hit me up in my socials. So it's in the show notes, LinkedIn, Instagram, Blue Sky, wherever you see those links, I'm on and checking. So yeah, I'd love to hear what you have to say.

49:42 So thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time, and happy conservation.