Everyone in the Tent: How Ocean Treaties Actually Get Made

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Tuna conservation would be nowhere without
the right tools to make sure that

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we are fishing them sustainably.

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today on the podcast, we have Holly
Koehler,

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who is a policy expert For the
International Seafood Sustainability
Foundation,

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ISSF, she is here to talk about how policy
plays a critical role in.

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creating protections for not only Tuna but
other fish as well.

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She has been involved in policy for quite
some time,

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and she's gonna tell us a little bit about
the history of how she got into policy,

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how she had like a science degree and got
into this,

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and then how it kind of like some of the
stories of all this policy work that she's

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been able to do. It's pretty exciting.

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Like I have to admit, I'm not a I'm not a
policy like crazy guy,

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like I don't just love it.

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but it's kind of cool, like it's really
interesting all the stories that she has.

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She's a great speaker. It was great to
have her on.

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I could have talked to her for a number of
hours on it,

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and I can't wait to have her back on one
day to be able to talk more about

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her work because she's just been involved
in so much,

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and you'll hear it in the interview.

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And that's what we're gonna be talking
about on this episode of the

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How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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This is the podcast where you find out all
about ocean news,

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whether it's tuna or fisheries or marine
mammal conservation or anything science
and

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ocean conservation related, this is where
you are going to find out what

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is up and what is the mainstream and what
you need to know Monday

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to Friday every week. usually an interview
on the Friday and then solo episodes

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on the Monday to Thursday to prepare you
for that interview.

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~ but yeah if you like this kind of stuff,

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why don't you just hit subscribe or follow
whatever podcast app you're listening

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to this on and you don't miss the next
episode.

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So that'll be that'll be great for me
because it helps me,

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you know,

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get more exposed to other people ~ who
might not get it,

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whether it be your contacts or anything.

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it's the podcast algorithm. It's
complicated,

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but it allows me to get in front of more
people,

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the more people that subscribe or that
follow,

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whichever one you're on, whatever podcast
app you have.

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I think most of them are follows now.

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I think I don't think they're subscribes
anymore,

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but most of them are follows. So follow if
you like and we'll get right into it.

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So Holly ~ came to us through the
International Seafood Sustainability
Foundation.

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they're always great. I always love the
information.

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They've done so much work tuna,

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especially, but it's not just like the in
the field stuff.

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It's not just with fishers, it's with the
entire supply chain.

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they've advanced tuna conservation and
fisheries conservation and management so
far,

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just by working with the entire supply
chain.

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So not just fishers, as we like to blame
all these fishers.

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They're working with fishers. Fishers are
working with them.

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They're working with processors and
fishhmongers and supermarkets

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and all these other places that sell tuna
so that they can look at every part

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of the process and make sure that it's
done properly so that

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we have sustainable tuna fisheries all
over the world.

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And we had Susan Jackson on earlier this
year.

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She talked about how, you know,

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the the last year we saw such great
numbers in terms of like 99%.

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of the tuna that were caught were from
sustainable fisheries last year.

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Today we're gonna be talking about policy
with Holly.

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Holly is the policy expert for tuna.

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She's been in policy as I mentioned before
so long and she talks about

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her history with the ISSF and and policy
and how that has helped bring us forward.

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especially with the way that ISSF works
with the entire supply chain,

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how it's helped in tuna conservation.

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And I just thought it was wonderful to be
able to have her on and to bring

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you this information. Here's the interview
with Holly Koehler talking about tuna

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policy over the last few decades.

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Enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you
after.

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Hey Holly, welcome to the How to Protect
the Ocean podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about the exciting
topic of tuna policy?

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Well,

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I'm very excited. I'm very pleased to be
here and looking forward to having

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a fun conversation with you about tuna
today.

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Absolutely. I'm looking forward to this
because I feel like we have

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hit the jackpot in terms of tuna.

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I feel Holly, you're like the OG of tuna
and management and I think we're

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in very good company here to really get a
sense of you know how tuna

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was managed previously and how tuna is
managed now and how that policy

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has changed and just really going into the
stories around policy in general

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for tuna and I think

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it's kind of a stuff things a topic that
we don't talk about often enough,

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but it's such an important part of
conservation that I think today's

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Hm.

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gonna be a lot of fun to talk about that.

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But before we get into all of that,

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Holly, why don't you just let the audience
know who you are and what you do?

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Okay, yeah, well let's see. I've been
working in tuna for almost thirty years.

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~ I started as a ~

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intern in Washington DC first at an NGO
and then with the State Department.

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And then I went on to work at the State
Department in their Office

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of Marine Conservation doing international
negotiations for tuna management

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and some other species until 2012 and then

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I moved on to ~ ISSF and back into the NGO
world.

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So I started working with an NGO ~

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that's ISSF ~ works with ~

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companies and you know, the supply chain
and so we also work across

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all of the different spheres, whether it's
vessels,

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flag states, other NGOs or ~ processing
companies.

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And I started working for them in t 2014
doing policy and outreach.

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So I kind of started the NGO world,

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went into the government world for a while
and now I'm back out into the NGO world.

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But the common thread has always been
international fisheries management and

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primarily focusing on tuna.

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Now what first drew you to international
fisheries policy?

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Because I'm sure I can ask you this and
you'll probably say it's a surprise,

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but like that's not when we think of
getting into science and marine

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and ocean science, we don't think about
policy when we're younger,

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you know, like doing our courses and
everything like that.

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What first drew you into international
fisheries policy?

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Well it was really kind of serendipitous.

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I mean I'm in from the Midwest.

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I grew up in Michigan and I went to school
in Ohio and then Indiana and then

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in my graduate program I was doing ~
public policy and one of the things

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I could do was either write another paper
or do an internship and so

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I ended up deciding to do the internship
route and ~ I

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was doing comparative international policy
as a coursework and

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That was I thought that was very
interesting because

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you know, this not something that,

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you know, most people don't have a lot of
experience with how intern you know,

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when you think about the international
realm,

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especially a farm girl from Michigan,

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I didn't have any experience in that and I
didn't even really know what does that

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mean. And so I found that that coursework
really interesting,

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but I really wanted to understand more
practically how did it how does it happen?

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What do you do? What does that mean?

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~ how is it accomplished? And so I ended
up going to Washington DC and

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I worked with a NGO

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at

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that was

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called the Center for Marine Conservation
at the time,

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but now it's called the Ocean Foundation.

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And in that

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internship that summer I worked on sea
turtles and sea turtles was my first sort

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of understanding of resources that are
shared.

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So

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Mm.

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they don't read maps, they don't respect
boundaries,

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they move around and they migrate long
distances and as a result they run into

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a lot of different types of gear.

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They run into a lot of different vessels
that are flagged to different countries.

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And so how do you manage them?

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How do you protect them? And you do that
through international cooperation.

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And through that internship I met people
at the State Department and it sort

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of just kind of canniballed from there.

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So you know, it started in coursework but
was really

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you know, really built on and really ~
activated through having some practical

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experience and really trying to understand
how do you in practice accomplish these

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things. And it's not so simple as just you
know saying we should do X

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or we should do Y. You have to work with
other

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countries and you have to collaborate and
you have to compromise to ensure

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or do your best to conserve these
resources that are moving throughout

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our world's oceans.

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Yeah, for

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sure. And I think it's really important
that you kind of brought that

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up because like when people think about
ocean conservation,

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they often think of like scientists or
fishers or even like advocates,

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people speaking out on certain policies
that have been put in place

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by governments or maybe outdated or maybe
new ones that they don't agree with

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and so forth. They probably don't picture
international negotiations,

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you know. So like why are these like those
meetings so important?

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Okay. Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

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I mean, you know, there's a lot of you
know when people think of

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it fisheries or marine science,

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they you know, think of big vessels and
people in scuba gear and things like that

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and ~ cool pictures of sharks and whales,

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~ all which all is great, but ~ if you're
these international negotiations,

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these meetings that are taking place and

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oftentimes very boring hotel ballrooms
around the world are

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Yeah.

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~ you know or windowless rooms in the UN
in New York where I spend a lot

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of time or in the FAO ~ in Rome.

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~ is that's where the agreements happen.

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I mean that's where the countries get
together.

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The countries that have decided that they
want to work together,

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~ and in cases of ~

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the different regional fisheries
management organizations,

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as I know we'll talk about a bit more
later,

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or legally bound themselves to cooperate,

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~

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that's where they get together and they
sit down and they work out how

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do we do this? And they agree that they
will do it.

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~ you know, whether that means they agree
to stop fishing at a certain time

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or they agree to use a certain type of
gear that is less damaging

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or catches less bycatch species like sea
turtles or sharks.

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that's where the rubber hits the road for
lack of a better term.

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~ and without that

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all the individual countries would be
operating in their own.

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And so it's without that cooperation,

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without that getting together and sitting
across the table from

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one another and really hashing it out.

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we wouldn't be able to accomplish what we
are accomplishing internationally

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for highly migratory species, for those
species that roam around and don't read
maps

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and occur across thousands and thousands
of miles in many different jurisdictions.

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Now, you know, you've probably accrued a
number of different skill sets throughout

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your time and doing different
negotiations,

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different countries using potentially
different tactics to ~ you know,

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get the best agreement for fisheries,

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for the ocean, for conservation,

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and of course for the State Department and
so forth.

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What would you say for in this audience
there's a lot of early career

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scientists and potential, you know,

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international negotiators and fishery
policy analysts in the future.

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What would you say is it was like the
biggest skill that you use pretty much

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all the time that you acquired over that
time that people could work on now?

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I think it's it would be listening.

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~

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Yeah.

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you know, I mean and I you know,

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they always you know, you read these like
books on,

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you know, getting to yes or getting past
no and all this sort of stuff

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and it's like ~ you know, your EQ or your
emotional intelligence.

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~ I think being able to listen to what
they're what they

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mean behind what they say. Right?

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Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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So,

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you know, one of the things that we would
say was where you stand depends

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on where you sit. So it's like you know
you have like you have some countries

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will they'll start out saying X but if
you've been around enough

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and you pay attention enough and you
listen to the other word choice,

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you know that

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what they might really mean behind that X
is they're signaling their flexibility

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or they're offering you something or
they're tying it to something else.

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And so you have to listen and pay
attention to those connections and

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be willing to also sometimes you have to
pick your moment also

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when you say like okay

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I'm willing, you know, who's gonna blink
first?

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I'm like, okay, well, what if we offered
this or what if I think I'm hearing this

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of in what you're saying? And ~ I also
chaired a lot of negotiations in

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00:13:19,638 --> 00:13:25,102
my time and as a chair, that's a huge
skill to have is really hearing

230
00:13:25,102 --> 00:13:30,736
the interests behind the words and knowing
when you

231
00:13:30,736 --> 00:13:34,589
can offer us a compromise or a solution
and when

232
00:13:35,413 --> 00:13:41,736
how that's gonna land and is it the right
moment to do so and when to kind

233
00:13:41,736 --> 00:13:45,318
of press the room on something and when to
hold back and wait.

234
00:13:45,318 --> 00:13:50,320
And a lot of that is learned through
experience.

235
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,962
It's not necessarily, I mean I'm sure
there are you know classes and things that

236
00:13:53,962 --> 00:14:00,005
can teach people that, but I was very
fortunate in my career ~ to work with some

237
00:14:00,005 --> 00:14:05,307
really incredibly gifted and ~ experienced
negotiators at the State Department.

238
00:14:06,248 --> 00:14:11,070
I was able to sort of learn at their knee
for many years ~ before I was

239
00:14:11,070 --> 00:14:16,053
the one in the front row. And so I was
able to pick up a lot on

240
00:14:16,674 --> 00:14:20,976
how they were successful and how they
accomplished what we needed to

241
00:14:20,976 --> 00:14:26,980
do and what they were hearing versus what
I was hearing and filing that away

242
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:28,360
for the future.

243
00:14:29,370 --> 00:14:33,932
Awesome. One of the things that I think is
also a great skill to have

244
00:14:33,992 --> 00:14:38,573
is to hear acronyms and really understand
what they

245
00:14:38,633 --> 00:14:39,633
are in

246
00:14:38,775 --> 00:14:39,775
Ha ha.

247
00:14:39,333 --> 00:14:41,594
a lot of places. And, you know,

248
00:14:41,594 --> 00:14:44,745
with TUNA and and TUNA Fisheries policies
and looking at that,

249
00:14:44,745 --> 00:14:47,936
there are quite a number of acronyms that
you and I use all

250
00:14:47,608 --> 00:14:48,608
Hm.

251
00:14:47,936 --> 00:14:49,247
the time. And sometimes like, you know,

252
00:14:49,247 --> 00:14:50,897
when I do this podcast, I'll say,

253
00:14:50,897 --> 00:14:52,430
you know, say RFMO.

254
00:14:52,750 --> 00:14:53,750
Right. Like that's a

255
00:14:53,325 --> 00:14:54,325
Mm-hmm.

256
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,372
common acronym that a lot of people in our
in the industry understand.

257
00:14:57,372 --> 00:15:01,853
But, you know, if I'm speaking to a
general audience who are not familiar with
that,

258
00:15:01,853 --> 00:15:03,184
it can get a little complicated.

259
00:15:03,184 --> 00:15:06,345
So I just have to ask, since we're getting
into tuna policy,

260
00:15:06,345 --> 00:15:08,743
~ can you like when we hear, you know,

261
00:15:08,743 --> 00:15:11,227
things like RFMO ~ all the time,

262
00:15:11,227 --> 00:15:14,949
like what exactly is an RFMO and why
should anyone outside

263
00:15:14,949 --> 00:15:17,269
the seafood industry actually care about
this?

264
00:15:17,269 --> 00:15:19,580
'Cause when I mention it to family and
friends,

265
00:15:19,580 --> 00:15:20,851
they're just like, I don't even know

266
00:15:21,367 --> 00:15:23,556
what that is and like how is that
important?

267
00:15:21,806 --> 00:15:24,447
Yeah. Yeah

268
00:15:23,556 --> 00:15:24,556
You know what I mean?

269
00:15:24,847 --> 00:15:27,608
sure. Absolutely. No, and it happens to me
too.

270
00:15:27,543 --> 00:15:28,543
Ha ha ha.

271
00:15:28,628 --> 00:15:34,800
still. So an RFMO a regional fisheries
management organization.

272
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:41,292
So it is and then ~ the reason for those
to exist in the world

273
00:15:44,661 --> 00:15:50,964
is because of a framework treaty that was
negotiated and it was there's UNCLOS

274
00:15:51,244 --> 00:15:53,925
and then part of sorry UN Convention on
the Law of the Sea.

275
00:15:53,644 --> 00:15:54,644
Yeah.

276
00:15:53,925 --> 00:15:54,925
And

277
00:15:54,416 --> 00:15:59,568
then as a part of that there was an
implementing agreement that implemented
certain

278
00:15:59,568 --> 00:16:02,910
provisions of that treaty that dealt with
highly margatory species

279
00:16:03,190 --> 00:16:08,102
and straddling stocks. So again those are
the stocks this fish and stuff that swim

280
00:16:08,102 --> 00:16:14,535
with fish ~ that either exist throughout
many jurisdictions

281
00:16:14,565 --> 00:16:15,565
It's highly

282
00:16:14,851 --> 00:16:15,851
Mm-hmm.

283
00:16:15,398 --> 00:16:18,510
migratory or straddling,

284
00:16:18,510 --> 00:16:19,510
which are like

285
00:16:20,299 --> 00:16:23,631
you know, Cod and some other ones which
were on either side of

286
00:16:24,351 --> 00:16:28,372
one or two boundaries, the high seas and
then say like Iceland or,

287
00:16:28,372 --> 00:16:32,074
you know, the EU or Canada. ~ so,

288
00:16:32,074 --> 00:16:34,556
you know, UN Conventional Of the Sea,

289
00:16:34,556 --> 00:16:40,478
you pulled out of that the management of
those kinds of fisheries.

290
00:16:40,478 --> 00:16:44,250
And then there was a new treaty that was
adopted called the

291
00:16:44,250 --> 00:16:49,012
UN Fish Stocks Agreement. And that
agreement,

292
00:16:49,012 --> 00:16:50,183
~

293
00:16:51,628 --> 00:16:56,682
Provided the normative framework for
cooperation internationally.

294
00:16:57,548 --> 00:17:01,619
And the duties of flag states and the
duties in these international

295
00:17:01,619 --> 00:17:03,789
or you know international organizations.

296
00:17:03,789 --> 00:17:06,470
So how do you give effect to that
cooperation internationally?

297
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:11,341
What does one do? And that give rise to
this idea of these organizations,

298
00:17:11,341 --> 00:17:14,502
these regional fisheries organizations
that would be treaty-based.

299
00:17:14,502 --> 00:17:19,523
And so what that means is that countries
that become party to them,

300
00:17:19,523 --> 00:17:24,474
like ICAT in the Atlantic or the Western
and Central Pacific Fisheries Commission

301
00:17:24,474 --> 00:17:26,625
in the Western and Central Pacific.

302
00:17:27,817 --> 00:17:32,239
they have legally bound themselves to the
provisions of that treaty

303
00:17:32,559 --> 00:17:37,301
and those treaties lay out you know a
whole set of things ~

304
00:17:37,602 --> 00:17:43,204
how they're structured you know what their
geographic scope

305
00:17:43,204 --> 00:17:48,066
is ~ what they cover? ~ what kind of
decisions they can make?

306
00:17:48,066 --> 00:17:50,127
how they're gonna arrange themselves?

307
00:17:50,127 --> 00:17:51,538
are they gonna have subcommittees?

308
00:17:51,538 --> 00:17:53,249
are they gonna have a science committee?

309
00:17:53,249 --> 00:17:54,943
are they gonna have an in-house science
committee?

310
00:17:54,943 --> 00:17:57,691
how are they going to monitor the
effectiveness

311
00:17:57,751 --> 00:18:02,066
Of the measures they adopt? How are they
going to slice up the pie?

312
00:18:02,066 --> 00:18:03,837
They have allocation structures.

313
00:18:03,837 --> 00:18:07,451
~ and who can join? They have provisions
on who can join,

314
00:18:07,451 --> 00:18:09,143
and if you want to join, how you have to
go about it.

315
00:18:09,143 --> 00:18:12,947
And there's a whole many other things.

316
00:18:12,947 --> 00:18:17,171
And those treaties ~ cover,

317
00:18:17,573 --> 00:18:21,155
nearly all of our oceans when it comes for
tuna anyway.

318
00:18:21,155 --> 00:18:24,596
And then there's a whole bunch of other
ones that cover non-tuna species.

319
00:18:24,596 --> 00:18:31,079
And there's like one small there's one
little small area in the South west
Atlantic

320
00:18:31,079 --> 00:18:32,980
that isn't covered by an RFMO.

321
00:18:32,980 --> 00:18:36,412
But almost all the entirety of the ocean
is covered by these organizations.

322
00:18:36,412 --> 00:18:41,804
~ even in the Southern Ocean you have ~
one that covers the krill fisheries

323
00:18:41,804 --> 00:18:44,576
and other types of fisheries in the far
southern ocean,

324
00:18:44,576 --> 00:18:46,226
you have one in the Arctic Ocean,

325
00:18:46,226 --> 00:18:47,226
and then you have

326
00:18:47,477 --> 00:18:52,359
these others that some of them kind of
overlap a little bit but they cover
different

327
00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:54,810
species so they don't have that's not a
problem.

328
00:18:54,810 --> 00:19:00,812
~ and, you know, all the major countries
that either border these

329
00:19:01,312 --> 00:19:06,734
RFMOs ~ or are fishing there from far
away.

330
00:19:06,734 --> 00:19:09,185
so you have distant water fishing nations,

331
00:19:09,185 --> 00:19:10,185
so say like

332
00:19:10,310 --> 00:19:11,310
Japan

333
00:19:11,726 --> 00:19:15,410
fishing over in the Atlantic. That's way
far away from their coastline,

334
00:19:15,410 --> 00:19:16,431
but they're considered

335
00:19:15,823 --> 00:19:16,823
Mm.

336
00:19:16,431 --> 00:19:18,012
a distant water fishing nation.

337
00:19:19,730 --> 00:19:24,052
And whereas the countries like the Pacific
Island countries that are coastal states,

338
00:19:24,052 --> 00:19:27,593
they're coastal states and they border
these RFMOs.

339
00:19:27,593 --> 00:19:32,476
They are all of the ones everyone who has
an interest in that fishery

340
00:19:32,956 --> 00:19:35,767
is encouraged to become party to it.

341
00:19:35,767 --> 00:19:37,938
And then once they're party to it,

342
00:19:37,938 --> 00:19:40,199
that's when we have these international
meetings,

343
00:19:40,199 --> 00:19:46,141
that's when these decisions are made on
how to manage the resource and manage the,

344
00:19:46,141 --> 00:19:49,423
you know, bycatch species or other things
that are

345
00:19:49,613 --> 00:19:50,613
found in that region.

346
00:19:51,279 --> 00:19:52,279
Interesting.

347
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:53,221
Yeah, that's really interesting.

348
00:19:53,221 --> 00:19:58,598
And it's such a structured area and it
covers so much area that it's really nice

349
00:19:58,598 --> 00:20:01,802
and a lot of different nations like so
there could be like multiple countries

350
00:20:01,802 --> 00:20:03,895
who are part of one RFMO.

351
00:20:04,727 --> 00:20:07,059
Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Yeah, exactly.

352
00:20:07,059 --> 00:20:12,265
So some of the RFMOs have like forty five
countries that are party to it.

353
00:20:12,265 --> 00:20:16,760
And yeah. And so some and some have and
some,

354
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,011
like in the Indian Ocean,

355
00:20:19,833 --> 00:20:23,035
the number of developing countries in that
that are party to that

356
00:20:23,055 --> 00:20:25,756
far exceeds the number of developed
countries.

357
00:20:25,756 --> 00:20:26,756
And so

358
00:20:25,991 --> 00:20:26,991
Interesting.

359
00:20:26,377 --> 00:20:29,235
that also creates other aspects of,

360
00:20:29,235 --> 00:20:33,080
you know, conditions in how those
resources is managed and the need

361
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,062
for capacity building and the need to help
support countries who may

362
00:20:37,062 --> 00:20:41,705
not have the same capacity to collect data
or monitor their fleets in the same way.

363
00:20:41,705 --> 00:20:46,467
And so they need some and so there's
elements of of support that come that flow

364
00:20:46,467 --> 00:20:48,388
through these bodies as well.

365
00:20:48,904 --> 00:20:53,896
So like the overall mission of each of of
all the RFMOs is to protect fisheries

366
00:20:53,896 --> 00:20:55,667
and to make sure that it's it's managed
properly.

367
00:20:55,667 --> 00:21:00,709
But even within each RFMO, there's unique
aspects

368
00:21:00,709 --> 00:21:06,251
to the organization that are catered more
geographically and like you said,

369
00:21:06,251 --> 00:21:11,138
like the looking at developed versus
developing ~ countries and so forth

370
00:21:11,138 --> 00:21:12,883
and what species overlap with what.

371
00:21:12,883 --> 00:21:14,774
So who like if there's two RFMOs,

372
00:21:14,774 --> 00:21:17,375
there are different species that are
managed by

373
00:21:17,659 --> 00:21:20,484
the RFMO and so just to make sure that
everybody is clear

374
00:21:20,885 --> 00:21:21,885
on the goals,

375
00:21:21,135 --> 00:21:22,135
Mm-hmm.

376
00:21:21,645 --> 00:21:24,611
but it could be unique at times depending
on the geographic region

377
00:21:24,611 --> 00:21:26,454
and what's unique in that area,

378
00:21:26,454 --> 00:21:27,454
correct?

379
00:21:27,725 --> 00:21:30,036
Yeah, yeah. I mean I think ~ you know,

380
00:21:30,036 --> 00:21:31,906
they all have their own culture and the I
mean

381
00:21:31,750 --> 00:21:32,750
Yeah.

382
00:21:32,791 --> 00:21:37,843
and their own, you know, and that and how
they operate and when they have their

383
00:21:37,843 --> 00:21:42,325
meetings and but the overall goals are the
same in the sense that at least from

384
00:21:42,325 --> 00:21:46,968
a tuna standpoint it's to conserve and
manage these highly migratory species

385
00:21:47,348 --> 00:21:52,320
and they have ~ you know sort of different
objectives sometimes like sometimes it's

386
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:57,192
like you know maintaining the populations
between maximum sustainable yield

387
00:21:57,393 --> 00:21:59,834
and sometimes they're not as quite as that
specific.

388
00:21:59,834 --> 00:22:02,598
Some of the older ~

389
00:22:02,915 --> 00:22:05,267
RFMO treaties have been updated over time,

390
00:22:05,267 --> 00:22:07,618
so like in the Eastern Pacific and
Atlantic,

391
00:22:07,618 --> 00:22:14,093
when they were first negotiated the
treaties were very lean and they didn't
cover

392
00:22:14,093 --> 00:22:18,996
some of the more modern provisions like
dealing with what we call non-target

393
00:22:18,996 --> 00:22:21,528
and associated species. So you know your
sea turtles,

394
00:22:21,528 --> 00:22:25,070
your seabirds, they were really just
focused on managing the fish.

395
00:22:25,070 --> 00:22:26,070
But as

396
00:22:25,446 --> 00:22:26,446
Right.

397
00:22:25,831 --> 00:22:29,373
time went on, it became clear that that
wasn't enough,

398
00:22:29,373 --> 00:22:31,804
that it really had to manage the
ecosystem.

399
00:22:31,804 --> 00:22:32,804
So they

400
00:22:31,889 --> 00:22:32,889
Mm.

401
00:22:32,195 --> 00:22:33,195
updated

402
00:22:32,815 --> 00:22:39,599
their treaties to include provisions that
gave them that mandate.

403
00:22:39,616 --> 00:22:42,956
and some of the RFMOs continue to refine
themselves over time.

404
00:22:42,956 --> 00:22:45,559
You know, they look at their provisions
and,

405
00:22:45,559 --> 00:22:50,181
you know, look at ways to improve their
effectiveness.

406
00:22:50,181 --> 00:22:54,063
And a lot of RFMOs have gone through sort
of performance reviews where they look

407
00:22:54,063 --> 00:22:58,174
at themselves and say, Okay, well these
are some things or have outside
independent

408
00:22:58,174 --> 00:22:59,235
people look at them and say, Okay,

409
00:22:59,235 --> 00:23:00,846
we could do better in these different
areas.

410
00:23:00,846 --> 00:23:05,928
~ But you're right, I mean the main goal
of all of them,

411
00:23:05,928 --> 00:23:07,899
whether ~ any of these are

412
00:23:07,912 --> 00:23:12,305
whether they're tunas or non-tunas is
international cooperation

413
00:23:12,305 --> 00:23:16,789
to ensure the sustainability of the
fisheries under their jurisdiction

414
00:23:17,890 --> 00:23:20,762
and also the ecosystem in most cases.

415
00:23:20,762 --> 00:23:24,174
So the things that are caught up in those
fisheries.

416
00:23:24,783 --> 00:23:25,783
Well see, I

417
00:23:25,113 --> 00:23:27,976
think that's a really important point
because I think a lot of times

418
00:23:27,976 --> 00:23:30,118
and may have bit used to been this way,

419
00:23:30,118 --> 00:23:33,941
where people assume that fisheries
management is all about catch limits

420
00:23:33,981 --> 00:23:36,013
and like so quotas and things like that.

421
00:23:36,013 --> 00:23:38,015
We a lot of times we hear, you know,

422
00:23:38,015 --> 00:23:40,976
in the public, these are the quotas and
these are the catch limits,

423
00:23:40,976 --> 00:23:43,549
and you can't catch more than this because
this makes sense based on

424
00:23:43,730 --> 00:23:45,551
all this other data and this other
science.

425
00:23:45,551 --> 00:23:47,373
But there's a broader

426
00:23:48,217 --> 00:23:50,267
goal too, as you kind of mentioned,

427
00:23:50,267 --> 00:23:53,559
it's not just about catch limits for one
species or multiple species,

428
00:23:53,559 --> 00:23:59,342
it's the broader ecosystem. Why do you
think that gets ~ confusing

429
00:23:59,342 --> 00:24:04,104
to people and the messaging out to I'm
gonna say general citizens,

430
00:24:04,104 --> 00:24:05,265
like they think that

431
00:24:04,898 --> 00:24:05,898
Mm.

432
00:24:05,265 --> 00:24:07,456
catch limits are one of the only ways.

433
00:24:07,456 --> 00:24:11,598
Like why do you think that there's a bit
of a confusion in that aspect?

434
00:24:11,598 --> 00:24:14,589
Or is it just because that's what used to
be talked about and it's changed since

435
00:24:14,589 --> 00:24:15,589
then?

436
00:24:16,301 --> 00:24:21,483
I think it's probably in part just because
there's just not as much knowledge about

437
00:24:22,043 --> 00:24:26,714
how the complexity of managing the
multi-species fisheries,

438
00:24:26,714 --> 00:24:31,286
like particularly again tuna, you rarely
catch just one kind

439
00:24:31,286 --> 00:24:34,226
of tuna depending unless you're very you
know,

440
00:24:34,226 --> 00:24:38,308
in very specific places and using a very
specific type of gear.

441
00:24:38,308 --> 00:24:40,987
~ and I also think that like a lot of your

442
00:24:41,201 --> 00:24:42,762
your average person, you know,

443
00:24:42,762 --> 00:24:45,442
is probably more familiar with things like
their rod and reel and,

444
00:24:45,442 --> 00:24:48,645
you know, what goes on in recreational
fisheries or something that's local,

445
00:24:46,583 --> 00:24:48,146
True. Right.

446
00:24:48,825 --> 00:24:52,327
right? You get a license and I can have a
bag limit and you know,

447
00:24:52,327 --> 00:24:54,198
I gotta be this long, you know,

448
00:24:54,198 --> 00:24:58,791
that kind of thing. ~ and so I don't think
there's anything really wrong with that.

449
00:24:58,791 --> 00:25:01,462
You know,

450
00:25:02,643 --> 00:25:04,644
that's what the great thing about like
podcasts like this are,

451
00:25:04,644 --> 00:25:06,416
like getting out that information,

452
00:25:06,416 --> 00:25:10,019
that the complexity and the diversity of
the tools and also

453
00:25:10,019 --> 00:25:13,431
the applicability of these organizations,

454
00:25:13,431 --> 00:25:14,882
they're not just about

455
00:25:15,046 --> 00:25:18,636
how much you can catch. They're also about

456
00:25:18,832 --> 00:25:24,396
what is the impact of the catching on
other things and can we mitigate

457
00:25:24,527 --> 00:25:27,239
those negative impacts, you know,

458
00:25:27,239 --> 00:25:29,331
on whether it's seabirds or, you know,

459
00:25:29,331 --> 00:25:30,331
some other

460
00:25:30,146 --> 00:25:33,149
part of the ecosystem. One of the other
things I worked on in the State Department

461
00:25:33,169 --> 00:25:34,169
~ was

462
00:25:34,267 --> 00:25:36,228
what we called high seas discrete stocks.

463
00:25:36,228 --> 00:25:42,947
So bottom fishing, bottom trawling type of
fishing but very damaging

464
00:25:42,947 --> 00:25:45,310
to certain things. And one of the

465
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,113
things I worked on at the UN when I was
chairing the fisheries

466
00:25:48,113 --> 00:25:50,465
~ negotiations there was

467
00:25:50,559 --> 00:25:51,559
kind of a landmark

468
00:25:51,909 --> 00:25:57,361
agreement on how to mitigate the impacts

469
00:25:57,661 --> 00:26:02,862
of bottom fishing or bottom trawling on
vulnerable seabeds.

470
00:26:02,862 --> 00:26:06,091
And because what was being damaged there,

471
00:26:06,091 --> 00:26:10,194
the fisheries were fine, but it what was
being damaged was the seafloor

472
00:26:10,194 --> 00:26:12,605
or the corals. And some of these corals

473
00:26:12,737 --> 00:26:17,967
are older than the pyramids. I mean that's
how long they live and

474
00:26:17,967 --> 00:26:19,258
how slow they grow.

475
00:26:20,020 --> 00:26:24,586
So this idea that you can't just smash
through this stuff.

476
00:26:24,586 --> 00:26:27,080
You have to be careful. You have to have
rules.

477
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,595
And so that was a you know that was a step
function change

478
00:26:30,595 --> 00:26:35,071
in international management of that
particular type of seamount fishery.

479
00:26:35,071 --> 00:26:37,234
~

480
00:26:37,429 --> 00:26:40,941
And we're seeing that evolution in these
tuna RFMOs as well.

481
00:26:40,941 --> 00:26:44,402
I mean, as I said, there were some
treaties that just really focused just

482
00:26:44,402 --> 00:26:46,303
on the fish. That was all they did for
years.

483
00:26:46,303 --> 00:26:51,205
And now there's a whether it's through
evolved

484
00:26:51,336 --> 00:26:53,947
recognition of the importance of the
ecosystem,

485
00:26:53,947 --> 00:26:55,527
or whether it's public pressure,

486
00:26:55,527 --> 00:26:56,848
whether it's all of these things,

487
00:26:56,848 --> 00:27:00,159
market pressure, there's a realization,

488
00:27:00,159 --> 00:27:05,662
understanding and now action to do more to
protect these other species that are

489
00:27:06,906 --> 00:27:08,713
associated with these fisheries.

490
00:27:10,693 --> 00:27:14,485
Now, ~ one thing in my mind that I will
never forget,

491
00:27:14,485 --> 00:27:17,617
okay, that I will always picture and I'll
always have it in my head,

492
00:27:17,617 --> 00:27:19,739
~ and it has to do with policy,

493
00:27:19,739 --> 00:27:24,752
~ was when the high seas treaty was
finally agreed upon.

494
00:27:24,752 --> 00:27:30,676
And there's a video online and it made the
news and unfortunately

495
00:27:30,676 --> 00:27:35,038
I forget the woman's name, but she was
chair of the committee.

496
00:27:35,038 --> 00:27:36,038
She

497
00:27:35,943 --> 00:27:40,464
put her gavel down in the final sort of
agreement that everybody was

498
00:27:41,024 --> 00:27:44,104
you know agreed upon. They had a number of
countries that agreed to it.

499
00:27:44,104 --> 00:27:46,446
And tears kind of flowed down,

500
00:27:46,446 --> 00:27:50,367
you know, as like it was a very emotional
time for many of the people,

501
00:27:50,367 --> 00:27:53,328
the negotiators from various countries.

502
00:27:53,328 --> 00:27:57,349
And it was so emotional as you know,

503
00:27:57,349 --> 00:28:00,640
because it took so long to put together.

504
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,381
And this was a huge treaty. It will
eventually change the game in terms of

505
00:28:05,785 --> 00:28:07,936
a lot of different things around the
ocean.

506
00:28:07,936 --> 00:28:11,138
And it kind of tells us that, you know,

507
00:28:11,138 --> 00:28:15,710
international negotiations is can be
frustrating and a slow process.

508
00:28:15,710 --> 00:28:20,062
Like a slow, frustrating process as shown
in in that video,

509
00:28:20,062 --> 00:28:26,535
where to achieve something as huge as that
is monumental in the future.

510
00:28:26,535 --> 00:28:29,987
And to be a part of something like that is
absolutely phenomenal.

511
00:28:30,331 --> 00:28:32,952
And there have been a lot of big policies
over that time,

512
00:28:32,952 --> 00:28:35,202
whether they're national or international.

513
00:28:35,202 --> 00:28:38,113
The Magnuson Stevenses Act in the US has
been huge,

514
00:28:38,113 --> 00:28:40,814
Marine Mammal Protection Act in the
States,

515
00:28:40,814 --> 00:28:43,375
the Fisheries Act in Canada, where I'm
from,

516
00:28:43,375 --> 00:28:46,715
has been monumental. ~ and I just want to
know,

517
00:28:46,715 --> 00:28:50,356
like, you know, it can be but when
progress happens,

518
00:28:50,356 --> 00:28:54,067
you know, what does that actually look
like in this world?

519
00:28:54,067 --> 00:28:56,278
Like when a policy comes into place,

520
00:28:56,278 --> 00:28:59,579
and even though like the high seas is
probably early on in telling

521
00:29:00,209 --> 00:29:04,124
how that's going to be successful or even
non-successful in the future.

522
00:29:04,124 --> 00:29:08,569
But when you've been part of a negotiation
that has been slow and frustrating,

523
00:29:08,569 --> 00:29:11,432
what does progress look like, you know,

524
00:29:11,432 --> 00:29:14,116
after it's been agreed upon? Like how do
we judge that?

525
00:29:14,116 --> 00:29:16,659
How do we evaluate that? Especially in the
early years.

526
00:29:17,656 --> 00:29:18,656
Mm.

527
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:21,285
let's see, that's an interesting question.

528
00:29:21,285 --> 00:29:22,285
Like I mean

529
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:27,981
'Cause I've been involved in both the
adoption of policy instruments like a
measure,

530
00:29:27,981 --> 00:29:28,981
~ you

531
00:29:28,464 --> 00:29:29,464
Mm-hmm.

532
00:29:28,912 --> 00:29:34,943
know, and I've also been involved in the
adoption of treaties,

533
00:29:34,943 --> 00:29:39,685
~ like the and so when you actually like
what you described for

534
00:29:39,685 --> 00:29:41,185
the high seas biodiversity treaty,

535
00:29:41,185 --> 00:29:42,960
I've been involved in, you know,

536
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:48,467
where you've spent years and years working
on little bits of text and having

537
00:29:48,467 --> 00:29:49,657
it all knit

538
00:29:49,209 --> 00:29:50,209
Yeah.

539
00:29:49,657 --> 00:29:51,968
together in the end and have

540
00:29:53,396 --> 00:29:58,229
everyone that's been involved in that
sitting around the room agree and

541
00:29:58,229 --> 00:30:02,081
no one says no or I decide I don't want to
do it anymore.

542
00:30:02,081 --> 00:30:08,664
~ so I mean I think what success looks
like ~ in both

543
00:30:08,664 --> 00:30:13,487
of the theme in both of those two
experiences that I've had is where,

544
00:30:13,677 --> 00:30:16,999
It can be very difficult and slow and you
have to make compromises,

545
00:30:16,999 --> 00:30:23,454
but the goal is to get something that is
strong on the one hand,

546
00:30:23,454 --> 00:30:24,454
and

547
00:30:24,642 --> 00:30:27,644
everyone who really needs to be inside the
tent is inside the tent.

548
00:30:27,644 --> 00:30:28,644
They

549
00:30:27,797 --> 00:30:28,797
Mm.

550
00:30:28,544 --> 00:30:32,868
agree to it and will implement it and
ratify it in case of a treaty

551
00:30:32,908 --> 00:30:37,651
or ~ implement the measure for conserving,

552
00:30:37,651 --> 00:30:40,113
you know, sharks or sea turtles or
whatever it is.

553
00:30:42,114 --> 00:30:45,381
And there are some delicate balances
there.

554
00:30:45,381 --> 00:30:46,381
Like you don't wanna

555
00:30:47,004 --> 00:30:50,425
push so hard that everyone's in the tent
that you end up with something that
doesn't

556
00:30:50,425 --> 00:30:52,156
really accomplish what you need to
accomplish.

557
00:30:52,156 --> 00:30:57,849
And it's finding that and that's where
those really delicate negotiations come
down.

558
00:30:57,849 --> 00:31:01,880
I mean in some of the ones there were some
things that I was involved in with

559
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:07,283
~ this other treaty that I it was for for
non-tuna's ~

560
00:31:07,423 --> 00:31:13,526
the South Pacific RFMO ~ where we had a
set of countries that ~

561
00:31:13,526 --> 00:31:16,850
had very different interests and also had

562
00:31:17,568 --> 00:31:23,192
there was ~ a lot of kind of baggage to
put it back a letter of

563
00:31:23,192 --> 00:31:27,235
a better word behind some of the positions
that these countries were taking.

564
00:31:27,235 --> 00:31:30,697
So finding the trade-offs seems like
getting something that would work

565
00:31:30,697 --> 00:31:34,510
for one set of countries but then maintain
some of the stronger positions that

566
00:31:34,510 --> 00:31:39,043
you needed in order for the entirety of
the treaty to be a strong one

567
00:31:39,324 --> 00:31:41,745
in a certain couple of particular areas.

568
00:31:41,745 --> 00:31:45,888
And it takes time. You can't just

569
00:31:46,701 --> 00:31:50,633
arrived there overnight. It took years of
building relationships

570
00:31:50,633 --> 00:31:55,686
and sitting in rooms and playing around
with forms of words and sometimes just

571
00:31:55,746 --> 00:31:59,028
the order of paragraphs just enough to

572
00:31:57,481 --> 00:31:58,951
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

573
00:31:59,328 --> 00:32:04,301
you know, I mean, it seems crazy to people
that haven't been in it,

574
00:32:04,301 --> 00:32:07,853
but it can be it can be that ~ way.

575
00:32:07,926 --> 00:32:09,707
and so that I think when, you know,

576
00:32:09,707 --> 00:32:11,668
kind of what success looks like to me is
like

577
00:32:12,791 --> 00:32:18,242
if you're able to find that sweet spot
where you whether it's a measure

578
00:32:18,503 --> 00:32:24,044
or whether it's an entire new instrument
where you accomplish something that's

579
00:32:24,410 --> 00:32:30,112
meets most of the objectives of being
strong and effective and moving forward

580
00:32:30,292 --> 00:32:36,834
a little bit more in terms of how to
ensure you know science is implemented,

581
00:32:36,834 --> 00:32:40,665
the fisheries are well-monitored and there
are consequences

582
00:32:41,758 --> 00:32:45,460
for breaking the rules, which are sort of
the three pillars of setting

583
00:32:45,460 --> 00:32:48,852
up these kinds of measures, and you get
everybody in the tent.

584
00:32:48,852 --> 00:32:50,633
Then I think

585
00:32:49,281 --> 00:32:50,865
Yeah. Then just

586
00:32:50,923 --> 00:32:54,114
you could be pretty pretty good feel
pretty good about that as a success.

587
00:32:55,073 --> 00:32:56,073
I

588
00:32:55,353 --> 00:32:57,473
think that's a good measure. I think
there's a lot that goes into it

589
00:32:57,473 --> 00:33:00,896
and it's not obviously not as easy as it
sounds to make that's

590
00:33:00,896 --> 00:33:03,988
why you're mentioning all these things and
especially making sure everybody's

591
00:33:03,988 --> 00:33:07,750
in the same tent. That I think that's a
really good point.

592
00:33:07,750 --> 00:33:13,373
Now one of ISF's recurring messages is
that governance matters just as much

593
00:33:13,373 --> 00:33:17,215
as the fisheries practices. And I think ~
some people will ignore

594
00:33:17,215 --> 00:33:20,267
the governance as they don't know a lot
about the governance.

595
00:33:20,267 --> 00:33:23,979
So why like what does ISSF mean by that
that

596
00:33:24,363 --> 00:33:27,010
governments is just as important as the
fishing practices.

597
00:33:27,643 --> 00:33:32,667
Well what ISSF means or what I would mean
say I that we mean ~ is that

598
00:33:32,667 --> 00:33:38,752
you know governance is essentially the
structure that we all you know that

599
00:33:38,752 --> 00:33:41,995
you operate under under. It's like you
know,

600
00:33:41,995 --> 00:33:45,218
I mean I have a background in anthropology
and it's like governance

601
00:33:45,218 --> 00:33:48,510
is like what civilization is based on,

602
00:33:48,510 --> 00:33:49,510
right?

603
00:33:48,691 --> 00:33:49,691
Right.

604
00:33:49,051 --> 00:33:52,974
I mean if you don't have rules and laws
and

605
00:33:53,103 --> 00:33:54,544
you know, as a set of

606
00:33:55,184 --> 00:33:59,507
principles that we all agreed that we're
gonna live by and if something goes wrong

607
00:33:59,567 --> 00:34:00,567
you have a place

608
00:33:59,723 --> 00:34:00,723
Mm-hmm.

609
00:34:00,267 --> 00:34:04,727
to go and you have someone who will help
you redress that issue or

610
00:34:04,018 --> 00:34:05,018
Mm-hmm.

611
00:34:04,727 --> 00:34:10,735
you have a process that you can ~ rely on
that this is something this

612
00:34:10,735 --> 00:34:12,236
is how things will unfold.

613
00:34:12,866 --> 00:34:16,198
That what governance is. And if you don't
have that,

614
00:34:16,198 --> 00:34:19,721
then you know, it kind of goes back to
what I was saying before about

615
00:34:19,901 --> 00:34:22,743
why we need RFMOs, because otherwise it's
just sort of a free-for-all.

616
00:34:22,743 --> 00:34:23,743
Like

617
00:34:22,802 --> 00:34:23,802
Yeah. Yeah.

618
00:34:23,984 --> 00:34:27,437
you could how would you manage a fishing
practice?

619
00:34:27,437 --> 00:34:30,009
Every different country would manage it
individually,

620
00:34:30,009 --> 00:34:33,431
but those vessels are not just staying in
that country,

621
00:34:33,431 --> 00:34:34,516
they're going out and

622
00:34:34,989 --> 00:34:39,251
beyond their country or they're going and
they're fishing in someone else's country

623
00:34:39,251 --> 00:34:43,269
zone because they're allowed to or maybe
they shouldn't be allowed to ~

624
00:34:43,413 --> 00:34:45,414
or no one know they were there.

625
00:34:45,414 --> 00:34:48,105
So it's like you need that governance.

626
00:34:48,105 --> 00:34:51,356
You need to have rules,

627
00:34:51,356 --> 00:34:52,857
you need to have certainty, you need to

628
00:34:52,446 --> 00:34:53,446
Mm-hmm.

629
00:34:52,857 --> 00:34:57,269
have a process, you need to have a way of
saying okay this is how

630
00:34:57,269 --> 00:35:01,160
we will develop our policy. This is how we
will get together and talk about

631
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,862
our policy. This is how we will adopt the
policy and this is how

632
00:35:04,902 --> 00:35:07,345
we will know that the policy is working.

633
00:35:07,345 --> 00:35:13,333
You need to have that structure in order
to have that an effective means

634
00:35:13,894 --> 00:35:18,459
by which to manage a fishery and the
fishing practices themselves.

635
00:35:18,994 --> 00:35:24,017
Yeah, I completely agree. Having that
almost that central area where the

636
00:35:24,017 --> 00:35:28,870
way I think of it too, it's like when one
area does really well at something,

637
00:35:28,870 --> 00:35:30,281
they can share it with others.

638
00:35:30,281 --> 00:35:32,493
It gets transposed because everything's
connected,

639
00:35:32,493 --> 00:35:35,214
which is nice and it's not just being
independently run.

640
00:35:35,214 --> 00:35:36,996
And I think that's really great.

641
00:35:36,996 --> 00:35:38,937
And plus I feel like a lot of those RFMOs,

642
00:35:38,937 --> 00:35:41,618
if a country has a conflict in that
fishery,

643
00:35:41,618 --> 00:35:43,860
they can come together

644
00:35:44,678 --> 00:35:47,500
and help negotiate those conflicts,

645
00:35:47,500 --> 00:35:48,940
right? And help get over those conflicts,

646
00:35:48,940 --> 00:35:51,111
which I think I really like. And I think,

647
00:35:51,111 --> 00:35:52,111
you know,

648
00:35:51,278 --> 00:35:52,278
Yeah.

649
00:35:52,231 --> 00:35:54,083
there's a lot of stuff when we talk about
fishers,

650
00:35:54,083 --> 00:35:57,214
'cause a lot of people will focus on the
actual fishing practices.

651
00:35:57,214 --> 00:35:58,214
And, you know,

652
00:35:57,624 --> 00:35:58,624
Mm-hmm.

653
00:35:58,015 --> 00:36:00,515
there's all these different gears that
come out.

654
00:36:00,515 --> 00:36:02,707
We've heard obviously not for tuna,

655
00:36:02,707 --> 00:36:05,438
but like of trawling and the damage that
can done.

656
00:36:05,438 --> 00:36:08,300
And then with tuna like long lining and
then pull and

657
00:36:09,012 --> 00:36:12,263
~ fishing and then FADs and like fish
aggregation

658
00:36:11,738 --> 00:36:12,738
Mm-hmm.

659
00:36:12,263 --> 00:36:16,965
devices and so forth. So like people often
focus on the gear being used

660
00:36:16,965 --> 00:36:18,175
and how that needs to

661
00:36:17,776 --> 00:36:18,776
Mm-hmm.

662
00:36:18,175 --> 00:36:21,937
change. But that's not just the only thing
that needs to happen.

663
00:36:21,937 --> 00:36:27,389
So like why isn't gear alone, like
changing gear alone ~ help why doesn't

664
00:36:27,389 --> 00:36:29,029
it just help improve sustainability?

665
00:36:29,029 --> 00:36:31,110
Like why do we need more than just
changing gear?

666
00:36:31,742 --> 00:36:34,805
Well, I mean, I guess so yeah,

667
00:36:34,805 --> 00:36:41,362
so ~ because you can change your gear but
you might still catch

668
00:36:41,682 --> 00:36:43,264
so I guess it depends on what you're
trying to accomplish,

669
00:36:43,264 --> 00:36:44,264
right? Like

670
00:36:43,574 --> 00:36:44,574
Right.

671
00:36:44,025 --> 00:36:46,767
if gear changes are to address

672
00:36:47,686 --> 00:36:52,159
An issue with that gear, like it's lost or
it entangles things or

673
00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:54,420
it catches things it shouldn't catch,

674
00:36:54,420 --> 00:36:59,003
or ~ you know, something of along those
lines,

675
00:36:59,003 --> 00:37:04,326
then those are kind of gear modifications
address one set of problems or issues.

676
00:37:04,326 --> 00:37:07,007
And then you have other like sets of
issues.

677
00:37:07,007 --> 00:37:10,549
If you want to control how much fish is
being removed from the ocean,

678
00:37:10,549 --> 00:37:15,132
then there are other tools in the toolbox
like management.

679
00:37:15,332 --> 00:37:22,329
areas or closures or ~ limits on the use
of certain gear because

680
00:37:22,329 --> 00:37:23,329
that gear

681
00:37:23,900 --> 00:37:26,661
can result in large catches all at once.

682
00:37:26,661 --> 00:37:31,862
And so, you know, there really are a suite
of things that are necessary

683
00:37:32,122 --> 00:37:34,003
to ensure comprehensive management,

684
00:37:34,003 --> 00:37:39,624
addressing potential negative impacts to
the ecosystem or to specific species

685
00:37:39,964 --> 00:37:43,606
or marine pollution. And then the
fisheries management itself,

686
00:37:43,606 --> 00:37:47,527
controlling the actual removals

687
00:37:47,527 --> 00:37:52,028
~ to maintain a healthy stock.

688
00:37:52,530 --> 00:37:57,132
And so you need multiple pieces of
management tools to accomplish that.

689
00:37:57,132 --> 00:37:59,211
And there isn't really a one size fits
all,

690
00:37:59,211 --> 00:38:01,534
and there's not really a silver bullet in
doing that.

691
00:38:01,534 --> 00:38:03,985
And that's why you see different RFMOs,

692
00:38:03,985 --> 00:38:08,007
different regions using different mixes of
management tools.

693
00:38:08,007 --> 00:38:10,118
Like in Eastern Pacific, for example,

694
00:38:10,118 --> 00:38:13,010
they have a full closure for a certain
period of time.

695
00:38:13,010 --> 00:38:17,111
And that's to reduce the amount of fish
that's being taken out of the ocean

696
00:38:17,312 --> 00:38:20,913
to keep it within sustainable
science-based limits.

697
00:38:20,913 --> 00:38:22,454
But in the Western Pacific,

698
00:38:22,544 --> 00:38:26,216
they have limits on the use of fats
certain prime times of the year.

699
00:38:26,216 --> 00:38:28,618
And so they don't have a full closure.

700
00:38:28,618 --> 00:38:32,280
~ So there's just different tools based on
the regions

701
00:38:32,541 --> 00:38:37,044
and the objectives that they're trying to
accomplish.

702
00:38:37,991 --> 00:38:41,212
Interesting. Now, one thing I fell in love
with,

703
00:38:41,212 --> 00:38:44,593
one of the reasons why I fell in love with
the ISSF is the fact that they focus

704
00:38:44,593 --> 00:38:48,164
a lot on ~ transparency and
accountability,

705
00:38:48,164 --> 00:38:49,164
which I think

706
00:38:48,743 --> 00:38:49,743
Mm-hmm.

707
00:38:49,014 --> 00:38:50,014
in

708
00:38:49,214 --> 00:38:51,375
any kind of fishery, especially dealing
with tuna,

709
00:38:51,375 --> 00:38:52,756
it's such an important aspect,

710
00:38:52,756 --> 00:38:55,366
right? We need to know what goes behind
all the science,

711
00:38:55,366 --> 00:38:57,377
what goes behind all the policy and
everything like that.

712
00:38:57,377 --> 00:39:00,858
For ISSF, like what does that actually
look like focusing

713
00:39:00,858 --> 00:39:02,568
on transparency and accountability?

714
00:39:02,568 --> 00:39:04,079
Like, what does it look like in practice?

715
00:39:04,503 --> 00:39:06,694
Well, we have a lot of things,

716
00:39:06,694 --> 00:39:13,025
tools that we have put in place and have
created to support transparency

717
00:39:13,025 --> 00:39:16,616
and accountability. And the transparency
and accountability at their basic,

718
00:39:16,616 --> 00:39:21,598
you know, essence are you know being open
about what you're doing,

719
00:39:21,598 --> 00:39:25,099
what you've committed to, what you said
you're going to do,

720
00:39:25,099 --> 00:39:30,660
that's transparency. And then
accountability is showing that you've done
it.

721
00:39:30,660 --> 00:39:33,641
And if you haven't done it, what you're
gonna do about it.

722
00:39:34,617 --> 00:39:38,200
And ~ in that ISSF's world,

723
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:43,825
you know, we have a number of we have the
participating companies that we work with,

724
00:39:43,825 --> 00:39:46,792
the processing companies, they are audited
annually.

725
00:39:46,792 --> 00:39:51,777
We have public compliance reports of their
implementation of

726
00:39:52,737 --> 00:39:54,198
The ISSF conservation measures.

727
00:39:54,198 --> 00:39:57,319
So you have transparency, public
accountability,

728
00:39:57,319 --> 00:40:01,661
all in one. You have they're audited and
those reports are public.

729
00:40:01,661 --> 00:40:03,822
We have similar for the vessels.

730
00:40:03,822 --> 00:40:05,283
We have these two different lists,

731
00:40:05,283 --> 00:40:08,744
and vessels that are on those lists are
audited for each of

732
00:40:08,744 --> 00:40:11,046
the different columns that you know,

733
00:40:11,046 --> 00:40:12,626
different sustainability commitments,

734
00:40:12,626 --> 00:40:17,609
and that their grades,

735
00:40:17,609 --> 00:40:22,574
their scores are then public. And this
these are tools for the public.

736
00:40:22,951 --> 00:40:29,334
for market actors, for NGOs to see if you
know these companies

737
00:40:29,334 --> 00:40:33,851
or these vessels are implementing what
they say they're going to be implementing.

738
00:40:33,851 --> 00:40:37,484
It's the transparency and the
accountability together in one package.

739
00:40:38,257 --> 00:40:39,580
Yeah, that's really interesting.

740
00:40:39,580 --> 00:40:44,410
Now, how does better data and transparency
actually change like behavior

741
00:40:44,410 --> 00:40:47,537
on the seas or even from a supply chain?

742
00:40:48,026 --> 00:40:50,427
Well, the more you know about what a
vessel is doing,

743
00:40:50,427 --> 00:40:52,488
the more you can

744
00:40:52,908 --> 00:40:57,910
see if it's implementing the kinds of
things whether it's because it's required

745
00:40:57,910 --> 00:41:00,471
under an RFMO or a national government,

746
00:41:00,471 --> 00:41:03,603
or it's something that the supply chain is
asking for.

747
00:41:03,603 --> 00:41:06,154
I mean, there are a lot of retailers and,

748
00:41:06,154 --> 00:41:10,906
you know, big companies like Costco and
Walmart that have specific things that
they

749
00:41:10,906 --> 00:41:11,906
want to see

750
00:41:13,979 --> 00:41:19,122
in their supply, they don't want to
purchase and put on a shelf something that
does

751
00:41:19,122 --> 00:41:23,094
not meet a set of sustainability
commitments that they have made as a
company.

752
00:41:23,094 --> 00:41:28,387
And so the more you have transparency and
better data at that vessel level

753
00:41:28,387 --> 00:41:32,340
or the harvesting level that flows through
that supply chain,

754
00:41:32,340 --> 00:41:36,802
the more that companies and others that
have made those commitments

755
00:41:36,802 --> 00:41:39,363
can actually say, Okay, I feel confident

756
00:41:39,463 --> 00:41:41,008
that this is

757
00:41:41,737 --> 00:41:42,737
I'm able to

758
00:41:42,736 --> 00:41:45,387
stand behind this product because it does
meet my

759
00:41:45,387 --> 00:41:47,817
own sustainability commitments that I've
made.

760
00:41:47,817 --> 00:41:50,798
And more and more companies that are doing
that those kinds of things that have

761
00:41:50,798 --> 00:41:55,840
public ~ seafood sustainability
commitments beyond tuna the you know
shrimp

762
00:41:55,976 --> 00:41:58,940
or whitefish or ~ other things.

763
00:41:58,940 --> 00:42:04,682
~ and then but in order to ensure that
they're accountable

764
00:42:04,682 --> 00:42:06,763
to their own sustainability commitments,

765
00:42:06,763 --> 00:42:11,304
they need data and they need better
visibility into their supply chain.

766
00:42:11,781 --> 00:42:14,505
Yeah, no doubt. I think that's really
interesting.

767
00:42:14,505 --> 00:42:17,870
Now with that said, ~ you've worked on
tuna for quite some time.

768
00:42:17,870 --> 00:42:21,956
What have you like where have you seen the
biggest improvements

769
00:42:22,457 --> 00:42:24,841
in tuna fisheries over your career so far?

770
00:42:25,416 --> 00:42:31,922
Well, I guess I would say that a greater
focus

771
00:42:32,022 --> 00:42:36,666
on and actually action in addressing
ecosystem impacts.

772
00:42:36,666 --> 00:42:40,369
~ when I first started in the tumor world
many,

773
00:42:40,369 --> 00:42:46,665
many years ago, most of the conversations
in not exclusively,

774
00:42:46,665 --> 00:42:50,458
but most of the conversations in these
international meetings are really focused
on

775
00:42:51,387 --> 00:42:56,190
you know, conservation of the tunas or how
much tuna can we catch and

776
00:42:56,190 --> 00:43:01,644
who can catch them and what gears can
catch how many and ~ there wasn't

777
00:43:01,644 --> 00:43:06,798
as much focus on the potential impact of
certain gears like fads

778
00:43:07,457 --> 00:43:12,682
or the impact of longline caught tuna on
other species.

779
00:43:14,661 --> 00:43:20,224
And as the science has evolved and shown
that there are certain mitigation measures

780
00:43:20,224 --> 00:43:24,256
that would really reduce the impact of
certain gears on

781
00:43:24,540 --> 00:43:29,222
these species, or that you could design
the gears differently so they

782
00:43:29,542 --> 00:43:34,004
are less likely to entangle things or less
likely to pollute the environment.

783
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,311
And those have been adopted. And those
have you know,

784
00:43:39,311 --> 00:43:42,613
there actually has been progress in
changing those measures or adopting

785
00:43:42,613 --> 00:43:47,116
new measures to address that wider set of
~ impacts.

786
00:43:47,116 --> 00:43:49,757
And I think the other thing that I've seen
is

787
00:43:50,048 --> 00:43:54,051
there's a lot more interest in what's
going on in those meetings outside

788
00:43:54,051 --> 00:43:56,382
of the typical original sort of actors.

789
00:43:56,382 --> 00:43:58,043
When I was first starting on this,

790
00:43:58,043 --> 00:44:02,886
it was always, you know, governments and
industry and a few NGOs that were
involved.

791
00:44:03,886 --> 00:44:06,347
And you could probably name them all on
one hand.

792
00:44:05,482 --> 00:44:06,482
Yeah.

793
00:44:06,347 --> 00:44:08,087
And

794
00:44:09,229 --> 00:44:12,281
you know, it was always the same sort of
you know,

795
00:44:12,281 --> 00:44:17,574
we had this a lot of the same ~
individuals or ~ personalities and groups.

796
00:44:17,574 --> 00:44:20,706
And ~ but now, you know,

797
00:44:20,706 --> 00:44:24,038
there's a lot more interest in

798
00:44:25,154 --> 00:44:29,988
what these international governance bodies
are doing and there's

799
00:44:29,988 --> 00:44:33,711
an interest from big companies like
retailers like I mentioned.

800
00:44:33,711 --> 00:44:40,626
There's interest by ~ other types of
organizations like social and labor or

801
00:44:41,428 --> 00:44:45,331
crew safety ~ organizations.

802
00:44:45,331 --> 00:44:49,825
there's a lot more focus from the world,

803
00:44:49,825 --> 00:44:51,274
the community on

804
00:44:51,962 --> 00:44:56,117
these organizations and I think that's in
some ways driving some of

805
00:44:56,117 --> 00:45:00,091
the progress in some areas, like because
it's no longer kind of an echo chamber

806
00:45:00,091 --> 00:45:02,804
of just the same folks working

807
00:45:03,216 --> 00:45:06,748
to adopt focus on the tuna and the
catching of the tuna.

808
00:45:06,748 --> 00:45:11,140
There's a lot more interest from the wider
world to say,

809
00:45:11,140 --> 00:45:14,201
I demand more. I want you to do more.

810
00:45:14,201 --> 00:45:18,303
And I'm going to ask for it and I'm gonna
watch you and see if you're doing it.

811
00:45:18,303 --> 00:45:21,775
And I'm gonna turn up at these meetings or
I'm gonna send you a letter

812
00:45:21,775 --> 00:45:24,726
or I'm going to and the other thing I
think was is the rise of some

813
00:45:24,726 --> 00:45:26,187
of these certifications out there,

814
00:45:26,187 --> 00:45:28,128
these eco-labels, ~

815
00:45:27,390 --> 00:45:28,390
Yeah.

816
00:45:28,128 --> 00:45:32,410
that have put pressure on these
organizations to accomplish specific
things.

817
00:45:32,850 --> 00:45:37,007
because those eco-labels can be lost and
those eco-labels

818
00:45:36,167 --> 00:45:37,167
Mhm.

819
00:45:37,007 --> 00:45:38,007
have value.

820
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,711
Yes. Yeah, we saw that ~ not too long ago,

821
00:45:41,711 --> 00:45:45,610
I think it was a year ago, when some of
those ecolabels pulled out

822
00:45:45,650 --> 00:45:47,142
of the lobster fishery in Maine,

823
00:45:47,142 --> 00:45:48,273
~ because

824
00:45:47,354 --> 00:45:48,354
Mm-hmm.

825
00:45:49,055 --> 00:45:50,226
of the entanglements

826
00:45:51,319 --> 00:45:54,970
in their gear with ~ North Atlantic right
whales ~ th which

827
00:45:54,970 --> 00:45:56,390
are critically endangered. So yeah,

828
00:45:56,390 --> 00:46:00,711
and it definitely, you know, the fisheries
union were worried at that point,

829
00:46:00,711 --> 00:46:01,711
being like, well, hold on

830
00:46:01,369 --> 00:46:02,369
Yeah.

831
00:46:01,702 --> 00:46:05,142
a second. You know, so it definitely makes
action take place.

832
00:46:05,142 --> 00:46:06,393
Whether people agree with it or not,

833
00:46:06,393 --> 00:46:08,073
you know, it does it makes, you know,

834
00:46:08,073 --> 00:46:09,073
people

835
00:46:08,314 --> 00:46:09,314
Mm-hmm.

836
00:46:08,793 --> 00:46:12,224
were looking for these ecolabels to make
sure that they see these ecolabels

837
00:46:12,224 --> 00:46:13,864
on their product so that they're

838
00:46:13,509 --> 00:46:14,509
Yeah.

839
00:46:13,864 --> 00:46:15,149
buying. So it's really interesting.

840
00:46:15,149 --> 00:46:18,886
There's been a lot of improvements which
is great to hear and great

841
00:46:18,886 --> 00:46:20,416
to see that they're affecting

842
00:46:20,818 --> 00:46:23,884
you know, how some of these organizations
and companies function,

843
00:46:23,884 --> 00:46:24,884
which

844
00:46:24,475 --> 00:46:25,475
is great.

845
00:46:24,506 --> 00:46:25,506
For sure.

846
00:46:25,397 --> 00:46:29,996
Now looking ahead, like what are the
biggest governance challenges that still
need

847
00:46:29,996 --> 00:46:31,038
attention today?

848
00:46:31,558 --> 00:46:33,358
I think there are some gears

849
00:46:33,847 --> 00:46:36,406
that have gotten a lot of attention and
continue to get a lot of you know,

850
00:46:36,406 --> 00:46:40,309
you talked about fads and certainly can
always be in improvements there.

851
00:46:40,309 --> 00:46:41,309
~

852
00:46:41,166 --> 00:46:44,327
but I think there are other gears that
have not gotten as much of attention.

853
00:46:44,327 --> 00:46:49,849
I mean I think there's still ~ a much
there's definitely in a need to improve

854
00:46:50,571 --> 00:46:54,963
the monitoring equally across fleets.

855
00:46:54,963 --> 00:46:57,244
For example, for the large scale Persane
fleet,

856
00:46:57,244 --> 00:46:59,735
which is type of ~ tuna fishing vessel,

857
00:46:59,735 --> 00:47:04,748
there's a hundred percent observer
coverage in three of the four RFMOs.

858
00:47:04,748 --> 00:47:09,461
Those vessels have to have a person on
board a hundred percent of the time.

859
00:47:10,415 --> 00:47:14,683
monitoring, you know, they fill out forms
and they keep track and their reports

860
00:47:14,683 --> 00:47:17,779
are then used for compliance purposes and
science purposes,

861
00:47:18,741 --> 00:47:22,062
~ but then, you know, you have long line
gears which have only

862
00:47:22,062 --> 00:47:26,093
a five percent coverage. And that's
something that a lot of us NGOs have been

863
00:47:26,093 --> 00:47:28,434
working on over the last few years.

864
00:47:28,434 --> 00:47:31,715
We have a ~ it's an area that really needs
to be improved.

865
00:47:31,715 --> 00:47:34,206
And there's some challenges with doing
that.

866
00:47:34,206 --> 00:47:36,406
I mean, these vessels are often out to sea
for a long time.

867
00:47:36,406 --> 00:47:39,227
And then and but with the rise of
technology,

868
00:47:39,227 --> 00:47:43,328
which is another one of those things which
it's changed a lot in my lifetime

869
00:47:43,328 --> 00:47:45,209
in this world, is the

870
00:47:47,780 --> 00:47:50,882
increase in technology and the
availability of technology to solve some

871
00:47:50,882 --> 00:47:55,024
of these problems you like electronic
monitoring putting cameras on boats
instead

872
00:47:55,024 --> 00:47:59,946
of humans you can use these cameras and ~
that's really gonna that's

873
00:48:00,146 --> 00:48:03,878
can really move the needle forward in
terms of increasing monitoring because

874
00:48:03,878 --> 00:48:08,189
if you have more ~ equal monitoring you're
gonna have better data from

875
00:48:08,189 --> 00:48:12,341
all these other fleets you're gonna have
better ~ confidence that measures

876
00:48:12,341 --> 00:48:13,522
are being implemented

877
00:48:14,162 --> 00:48:16,003
it'll improve not only the

878
00:48:16,043 --> 00:48:19,967
science, but it'll also improve the
implementation and effectiveness

879
00:48:20,006 --> 00:48:22,710
of some of these bycatch measures that
I've mentioned.

880
00:48:22,710 --> 00:48:26,193
I think that that still continues to be a
big challenge.

881
00:48:26,193 --> 00:48:29,347
~ ensure getting some getting rising the
tide,

882
00:48:29,347 --> 00:48:31,759
you know, lifting all boats to have a
similar kind of

883
00:48:31,245 --> 00:48:32,245
For sure.

884
00:48:32,340 --> 00:48:36,424
monitoring level. ~ And I think the other
thing I think that is

885
00:48:37,703 --> 00:48:40,525
a governance challenge, which isn't really
I guess it's not really

886
00:48:40,525 --> 00:48:41,799
a governance governance challenge.

887
00:48:41,799 --> 00:48:46,846
I think more could be done to explain ~
the value in

888
00:48:49,142 --> 00:48:52,006
those fisheries that are doing the right
things,

889
00:48:52,006 --> 00:48:56,283
right? Like that's something like
transmitting that beyond the world of

890
00:48:56,283 --> 00:48:58,286
us who live and breathe this stuff,

891
00:48:58,286 --> 00:49:01,912
but getting it out into the public and
getting it out into people understanding

892
00:49:01,912 --> 00:49:03,304
the value of

893
00:49:05,062 --> 00:49:09,704
sustainable fisheries. ~ you see a lot of
~ a growth of a lot of

894
00:49:09,797 --> 00:49:12,639
labeling and different ways of marketing
things and I think

895
00:49:12,961 --> 00:49:15,282
I can tell you I you know like at a
cocktail party,

896
00:49:15,282 --> 00:49:16,282
you know, and someone will ask me,

897
00:49:16,242 --> 00:49:18,533
Can I eat this? Is this fishery okay?

898
00:49:17,303 --> 00:49:20,736
Yeah. Yeah. I've had that.

899
00:49:18,533 --> 00:49:20,814
You know, can I have this?

900
00:49:21,074 --> 00:49:23,456
You know, I saw an article or I saw,

901
00:49:23,456 --> 00:49:29,288
you know, whatever about little kids
living in Indonesia and they're peeling
shrimp

902
00:49:29,288 --> 00:49:30,369
and that's horrible and

903
00:49:30,999 --> 00:49:32,060
I don't wanna be involved in that.

904
00:49:32,060 --> 00:49:35,081
How would I know? How would I know that
this shrimp is okay?

905
00:49:33,465 --> 00:49:34,680
Right. Yeah.

906
00:49:35,081 --> 00:49:37,132
~ and I think it's that kind of stuff.

907
00:49:37,132 --> 00:49:39,401
People there is definitely an

908
00:49:39,713 --> 00:49:40,834
increase in interest

909
00:49:41,222 --> 00:49:42,222
it seems

910
00:49:41,323 --> 00:49:42,323
Mm.

911
00:49:41,632 --> 00:49:44,484
to me more than it was used to be when I
first started,

912
00:49:44,484 --> 00:49:51,047
for consumers wanting to know more about
what it is and it's not just environment,

913
00:49:51,047 --> 00:49:54,489
it's also people. It's like how are people
being treated and is it fair,

914
00:49:52,405 --> 00:49:56,361
Yeah. ~ for sure. Yeah.

915
00:49:54,489 --> 00:49:56,490
wages, you know, all that sort of stuff.

916
00:49:57,111 --> 00:50:01,583
And ~ I think getting those messages out
more is another area that could

917
00:50:01,583 --> 00:50:02,583
be improved on.

918
00:50:02,751 --> 00:50:07,324
Yeah, I love that. Now, ~ there's a lot of
stuff going on in the ocean right now.

919
00:50:07,324 --> 00:50:10,396
And sometimes a lot of the times the news
isn't that

920
00:50:10,917 --> 00:50:12,388
great. but each

921
00:50:11,825 --> 00:50:12,825
Mm.

922
00:50:12,388 --> 00:50:15,360
and every one of us who l work within
ocean conservation,

923
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,631
whether it be international fisheries
policy,

924
00:50:17,631 --> 00:50:19,313
whether it be me in communications,

925
00:50:19,313 --> 00:50:22,205
we always find a little bit of optimism.

926
00:50:22,205 --> 00:50:26,358
So like I'm gonna ask you, what gives you
optimism about the future

927
00:50:26,498 --> 00:50:28,989
of international fisheries policy?

928
00:50:28,989 --> 00:50:31,141
Like something that you are an expert in.

929
00:50:31,615 --> 00:50:34,558
Well, I mean, I think there's some of the
things I've already mentioned.

930
00:50:34,558 --> 00:50:37,430
if I look back even five years ago,

931
00:50:37,430 --> 00:50:39,412
you know, five, six years ago,

932
00:50:39,412 --> 00:50:42,944
none of these big treaty organizations
that we've been talking about,

933
00:50:42,944 --> 00:50:46,136
the RFMOs, had adopted restrictions on

934
00:50:46,981 --> 00:50:50,962
fat FADs, fish aggregating devices that
entangle.

935
00:50:50,962 --> 00:50:53,104
they had these long tails of netting

936
00:50:52,546 --> 00:50:53,546
Yeah.

937
00:50:53,104 --> 00:50:54,965
that would hang belong them, you know,

938
00:50:54,965 --> 00:50:56,655
fifty feet or something. And

939
00:50:56,326 --> 00:50:57,326
Right.

940
00:50:56,655 --> 00:50:58,116
they're all floating out there in the
ocean.

941
00:50:58,116 --> 00:51:02,337
And there was science that showed that
this was actually a huge form

942
00:51:02,337 --> 00:51:06,368
of mortality for certain types of sharks
and other species.

943
00:51:06,630 --> 00:51:10,711
now all of those organizations have all
banned netting.

944
00:51:11,235 --> 00:51:12,235
Hmm.

945
00:51:11,283 --> 00:51:12,283
they no

946
00:51:11,673 --> 00:51:13,445
longer can use those that netting.

947
00:51:13,445 --> 00:51:17,039
they have to use canvas panels or they
have to,

948
00:51:17,039 --> 00:51:19,221
you know, secure things in certain ways.

949
00:51:19,221 --> 00:51:21,953
So so you've gone in that relatively in
the you know,

950
00:51:21,953 --> 00:51:26,576
in the glacial pace that can be it can be
of international negotiations.

951
00:51:26,576 --> 00:51:29,378
That's a pretty big win to go from,

952
00:51:28,350 --> 00:51:29,350
Huge. Yeah.

953
00:51:29,618 --> 00:51:30,618
you know

954
00:51:30,722 --> 00:51:33,877
Now, of course, you know, there can be
arguments like are they doing it,

955
00:51:33,877 --> 00:51:34,877
and are they being implemented,

956
00:51:34,267 --> 00:51:35,824
Right. Of course.

957
00:51:34,858 --> 00:51:35,858
you know, there's always going

958
00:51:35,830 --> 00:51:37,442
to be that piece of it, of course.

959
00:51:37,442 --> 00:51:41,709
But the fact that those were agreements
were made by consensus

960
00:51:41,709 --> 00:51:44,012
in these organizations, and all of them,

961
00:51:44,012 --> 00:51:45,815
is a pretty big deal.

962
00:51:46,676 --> 00:51:48,377
~ and so it gives you optimism that,

963
00:51:48,377 --> 00:51:52,941
you know, when presented with science and
data

964
00:51:53,021 --> 00:51:56,604
and facts that this is bad,

965
00:51:56,604 --> 00:51:58,416
that we this should not be allowed.

966
00:51:58,416 --> 00:52:00,808
This is not something that should be this
is not responsible.

967
00:52:01,057 --> 00:52:02,118
Change can happen.

968
00:52:02,237 --> 00:52:04,128
the other thing that fills me the
optimism,

969
00:52:04,128 --> 00:52:09,271
more optimism is that I mentioned that
there's more eyeballs

970
00:52:09,271 --> 00:52:12,483
on these organizations than their headb
the past from a variety

971
00:52:12,483 --> 00:52:15,525
of different parts of the supply chain.

972
00:52:15,525 --> 00:52:17,336
There's, you know, the markets,

973
00:52:17,336 --> 00:52:19,618
the retailers, those that are putting
stuff on their shelves,

974
00:52:19,618 --> 00:52:21,079
to the processors that are

975
00:52:21,204 --> 00:52:23,145
buying the fish and putting it in cans and

976
00:52:23,675 --> 00:52:26,326
to, you know, just the average person,

977
00:52:26,326 --> 00:52:28,687
the public. I mean, there's a lot more
articles and,

978
00:52:28,687 --> 00:52:33,329
you know, documentaries and things out
there really bringing people's attention

979
00:52:33,329 --> 00:52:36,151
to the oceans and to some of the
challenges.

980
00:52:36,151 --> 00:52:40,713
And that's giving rise to new generations
of people that are demanding more.

981
00:52:40,713 --> 00:52:45,465
Whether it's more information or like I'm
not gonna buy this unless you

982
00:52:45,465 --> 00:52:50,638
can give me some confidence that it has
not had an impact on a person that's

983
00:52:50,638 --> 00:52:53,599
a negative or a sea turtle or whatever
their thing is.

984
00:52:53,619 --> 00:53:00,113
is. And I think that the more global our
world is,

985
00:53:00,113 --> 00:53:02,005
the more interconnected we all are,

986
00:53:02,005 --> 00:53:04,646
that is that and that through technology,

987
00:53:04,646 --> 00:53:11,081
that's really it blows apart these silos
and some of these insular sort

988
00:53:11,081 --> 00:53:15,413
of smoke-filled rooms where things are
being decided without any of that,

989
00:53:15,413 --> 00:53:17,795
no one really knowing what was going on in
there.

990
00:53:17,795 --> 00:53:19,976
And that's not really the case anymore.

991
00:53:20,769 --> 00:53:23,380
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's really
interesting.

992
00:53:23,380 --> 00:53:27,301
Like I said, there's always ways to find
optimism and there's always changes that

993
00:53:27,301 --> 00:53:29,611
are happening and yes, sometimes they're a
little slow,

994
00:53:29,611 --> 00:53:34,582
but they do end up going. One thing I
always love when we first roll out a
policy,

995
00:53:34,582 --> 00:53:36,423
I mentioned like the high seas,

996
00:53:36,423 --> 00:53:39,424
but I'm sure with a lot of other policies
you can use as an example.

997
00:53:39,424 --> 00:53:44,095
It may not look great at the beginning or
it may have some loops or some holes

998
00:53:44,095 --> 00:53:47,025
in it right at the beginning. But as we
use it more and more,

999
00:53:47,025 --> 00:53:49,056
the big thing is that getting it there.

1000
00:53:49,714 --> 00:53:53,366
and getting it passed and then being able
to build on it as we get in

1001
00:53:53,366 --> 00:53:55,797
the future and as we do a little adaptive
management.

1002
00:53:55,797 --> 00:53:57,708
You know, you see a problem arise,

1003
00:53:57,708 --> 00:53:59,759
you okay, okay, there's a bit of a
loophole,

1004
00:53:59,759 --> 00:54:01,849
so we can close that loophole or you know,

1005
00:54:01,849 --> 00:54:03,300
something we didn't foresee in the future.

1006
00:54:03,300 --> 00:54:07,652
So I think that's what gives me optimism
around these types of policies.

1007
00:54:07,652 --> 00:54:08,903
Same with like marine protected

1008
00:54:08,285 --> 00:54:09,285
Mm-hmm.

1009
00:54:08,903 --> 00:54:11,424
areas, it may not be perfect right at the
beginning,

1010
00:54:11,207 --> 00:54:12,207
Right.

1011
00:54:11,424 --> 00:54:12,424
but

1012
00:54:11,644 --> 00:54:15,235
at least it's designated and then we can
build on it for implementation,

1013
00:54:15,235 --> 00:54:16,606
funding, enforcement and

1014
00:54:16,987 --> 00:54:19,158
Right. Exactly.

1015
00:54:17,012 --> 00:54:18,683
And so forth. So I really love that.

1016
00:54:18,683 --> 00:54:19,683
Now look,

1017
00:54:20,103 --> 00:54:23,784
Holly, we have a little time. I'd like to
do something with you.

1018
00:54:23,784 --> 00:54:26,485
Do a little bit of a lightening round in
terms

1019
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:27,160
Okay.

1020
00:54:26,606 --> 00:54:31,857
of some of the stuff that's happened in
your career or what people may think

1021
00:54:31,857 --> 00:54:34,338
of ~ international fisheries management.

1022
00:54:34,338 --> 00:54:36,019
So the first one is like, what's one

1023
00:54:35,421 --> 00:54:36,421
Mm-hmm.

1024
00:54:36,019 --> 00:54:38,790
misconception of international fisheries
management?

1025
00:54:39,257 --> 00:54:44,078
I think the misconception is that the high
seas are unregulated.

1026
00:54:44,612 --> 00:54:48,716
Mm. okay. I like that. That's interesting.

1027
00:54:48,047 --> 00:54:50,923
Yeah. Yeah. I mean you can't have internet

1028
00:54:48,716 --> 00:54:51,039
How so? Like 'cause I

1029
00:54:51,199 --> 00:54:53,541
'cause I think there's like there's a lot
for like enforcement stuff.

1030
00:54:53,541 --> 00:54:55,043
It's really difficult. So

1031
00:54:54,959 --> 00:54:55,959
Right.

1032
00:54:55,333 --> 00:54:56,333
what do you mean by that?

1033
00:54:56,742 --> 00:54:58,071
Well you still even see it now.

1034
00:54:58,071 --> 00:55:00,126
You see sometimes you see articles or

1035
00:55:00,441 --> 00:55:03,542
people speaking about like the lawlessness
of the high seas.

1036
00:55:03,542 --> 00:55:04,542
There's no like

1037
00:55:03,807 --> 00:55:04,807
Yeah.

1038
00:55:04,233 --> 00:55:06,734
there's nothing out there and it and
that's just that's not true.

1039
00:55:06,734 --> 00:55:10,266
I mean, yes, some of these organizations
could be improved on.

1040
00:55:10,266 --> 00:55:11,746
Absolutely. And as you said, you know,

1041
00:55:11,746 --> 00:55:16,348
enforcement and ~ compliance and these are
all things that can be improved

1042
00:55:16,348 --> 00:55:21,791
and but it isn't that I think that's a big
huge misconception is that that that

1043
00:55:22,011 --> 00:55:27,143
there's a lot of kind of rampant activity
that's unregulated going on.

1044
00:55:27,143 --> 00:55:30,095
I mean there are certainly is can be some
illegal things,

1045
00:55:30,095 --> 00:55:31,095
but that

1046
00:55:30,327 --> 00:55:31,327
That's

1047
00:55:30,507 --> 00:55:33,229
because they're illegal because they're
not in line with the

1048
00:55:33,229 --> 00:55:35,891
r adopted frameworks and regulations that
are there.

1049
00:55:35,891 --> 00:55:41,264
So that would be that would be one that I
I continue to see periodically

1050
00:55:41,264 --> 00:55:44,736
and I'm just like, it's just not true.

1051
00:55:41,521 --> 00:55:43,314
Yeah. And you're like, wait a minute.

1052
00:55:43,314 --> 00:55:46,429
That's not true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1053
00:55:44,736 --> 00:55:48,709
Are they perfect? No, but they exist.

1054
00:55:46,429 --> 00:55:49,594
No. They exist.

1055
00:55:48,709 --> 00:55:50,550
So ~ you know.

1056
00:55:49,594 --> 00:55:50,676
Yeah. I

1057
00:55:50,676 --> 00:55:52,158
like that. I like, I like hearing that.

1058
00:55:52,158 --> 00:55:56,495
~ what's one development in the last five
years you're most encouraged by?

1059
00:55:57,355 --> 00:56:00,437
~ I guess I I mean again I'm it's all
repeating myself unfortunately,

1060
00:56:00,437 --> 00:56:06,150
but I you know, s some of the developments
around gear modifications

1061
00:56:06,310 --> 00:56:10,273
to address ~ known demonstrated

1062
00:56:11,821 --> 00:56:16,424
environmental impacts. I mean whether it's
from ~ the f the fads

1063
00:56:16,424 --> 00:56:19,084
and that I mentioned with the
nonentangling fads and g moving

1064
00:56:18,656 --> 00:56:19,656
Mm-hmm.

1065
00:56:19,084 --> 00:56:23,887
to that and now they're even moving to
biodegradable fads so so that they'll
break

1066
00:56:23,887 --> 00:56:26,188
down and and and not pollute the
environment.

1067
00:56:26,188 --> 00:56:28,589
I think that's a big one. And the other
one is,

1068
00:56:28,589 --> 00:56:33,011
you know, some of the ~ bycatch mitigation
techniques

1069
00:56:33,011 --> 00:56:38,394
to ~ safely release ~ animals from either
the deck

1070
00:56:38,974 --> 00:56:40,515
or n you know

1071
00:56:41,015 --> 00:56:44,027
when they're hooked or when they be not
even letting them get on board

1072
00:56:44,027 --> 00:56:45,427
in the first place, keeping them in the
water,

1073
00:56:45,427 --> 00:56:46,958
bringing them back. And

1074
00:56:45,438 --> 00:56:46,619
Yeah. Yeah.

1075
00:56:47,058 --> 00:56:51,281
things like, you know, there's there's
some critically endangered seabirds

1076
00:56:51,721 --> 00:56:55,473
and some of the RFMOs have adopted some
much stricter measures to

1077
00:56:55,473 --> 00:57:01,326
try to address some of that, the impact of
those of of certain gear types

1078
00:57:02,027 --> 00:57:03,497
on those seabirds. And you know,

1079
00:57:03,497 --> 00:57:05,108
this is like a situation where

1080
00:57:05,385 --> 00:57:09,487
The solution is there to reverse the
extinction of these seabirds and some

1081
00:57:09,487 --> 00:57:11,488
of the RFMOs are taking they can do more,

1082
00:57:11,488 --> 00:57:13,449
but they're taking steps in the right
direction.

1083
00:57:11,767 --> 00:57:13,962
Yeah. Right.

1084
00:57:13,449 --> 00:57:14,449
And that's

1085
00:57:14,329 --> 00:57:17,140
that's a huge deal for me. Like ~ you
know,

1086
00:57:17,140 --> 00:57:19,481
when when we know what we can do and

1087
00:57:18,946 --> 00:57:19,946
Yeah.

1088
00:57:19,481 --> 00:57:20,481
if you don't do it

1089
00:57:20,663 --> 00:57:23,072
Agreed. Agreed.

1090
00:57:21,064 --> 00:57:23,097
that's pretty discouraging. But they

1091
00:57:23,097 --> 00:57:25,661
are starting to move in that direction and
and that direction of travel

1092
00:57:25,661 --> 00:57:28,455
is there and that and so that's you know,

1093
00:57:28,455 --> 00:57:34,244
that's a f s a a source of optimism for me
and and and ~ encourage something that

1094
00:57:34,244 --> 00:57:35,244
I'm encouraged by.

1095
00:57:35,554 --> 00:57:40,020
Love it, love it. ~ what's one thing you
wish more people understood about tuna

1096
00:57:40,020 --> 00:57:41,122
fishery sustainability?

1097
00:57:41,657 --> 00:57:44,022
that it's a process and it takes time.

1098
00:57:43,166 --> 00:57:46,602
Hmm. Yeah. I think people get impatient.

1099
00:57:44,022 --> 00:57:46,548
I mean, these are

1100
00:57:46,602 --> 00:57:47,602
They hear about it and they're like,

1101
00:57:47,514 --> 00:57:48,676
no, no, we just gotta stop it.

1102
00:57:48,676 --> 00:57:50,089
Just gotta stop it all over it.

1103
00:57:49,411 --> 00:57:51,602
Right. Gotta ban it, gotta stop it.

1104
00:57:50,089 --> 00:57:51,902
That's not gonna happen. Yeah.

1105
00:57:51,602 --> 00:57:53,521
Or why is it taking so long? Well,

1106
00:57:51,902 --> 00:57:53,916
Yeah. Right.

1107
00:57:53,521 --> 00:57:54,521
you know,

1108
00:57:53,932 --> 00:57:55,933
like I mentioned, like you have four
forty,

1109
00:57:55,933 --> 00:57:58,104
forty five countries sitting in a room
once a year.

1110
00:57:57,469 --> 00:57:58,469
Mm-hmm.

1111
00:57:58,641 --> 00:58:03,265
The fact that they can adopt up to a dozen
measures is is in one one meeting

1112
00:58:01,652 --> 00:58:04,791
That's crazy. Yeah.

1113
00:58:03,265 --> 00:58:04,986
is is a lot. That's pretty good.

1114
00:58:04,791 --> 00:58:05,791
Yeah.

1115
00:58:04,986 --> 00:58:05,986
But

1116
00:58:06,026 --> 00:58:10,668
~ I think there's the sense that it it
takes time and it takes a i it is a
process.

1117
00:58:10,668 --> 00:58:13,508
And when you're working with you know,

1118
00:58:13,508 --> 00:58:14,729
dozens of countries

1119
00:58:15,157 --> 00:58:16,483
that come from different cultures,

1120
00:58:16,483 --> 00:58:20,117
different languages, different ~
capacities,

1121
00:58:20,117 --> 00:58:23,601
different development levels. It it takes
time.

1122
00:58:23,961 --> 00:58:26,934
Yeah, I can imagine. A last question for
you.

1123
00:58:26,934 --> 00:58:32,098
~ what's one of your most memorable times
like in a

1124
00:58:32,098 --> 00:58:35,262
in a room negotiating you know,

1125
00:58:35,262 --> 00:58:38,045
some sort of international agreement with
fisheries?

1126
00:58:38,045 --> 00:58:42,689
~ what's one of the most memorable
experiences that you've that you've

1127
00:58:42,689 --> 00:58:44,661
had over your career?

1128
00:58:45,391 --> 00:58:48,283
gosh. that's a tough one to pick one.

1129
00:58:48,283 --> 00:58:51,936
always say that someday I'll write my
memoir and it'll be called

1130
00:58:51,398 --> 00:58:52,398
Yeah.

1131
00:58:51,936 --> 00:58:55,468
The True Lies of the Pacific because no
one will believe half of the half

1132
00:58:55,468 --> 00:58:57,029
of the stuff that I could tell you.

1133
00:58:57,241 --> 00:58:59,666
I think one of my more memorable moments
was

1134
00:59:00,154 --> 00:59:03,336
well, it was in New York. It wasn't in it
wasn't for a tuna negotiation.

1135
00:59:03,336 --> 00:59:07,419
It was when I was chairing the sustainable
fisheries resolution negotiations

1136
00:59:07,999 --> 00:59:12,368
and we worked all night it was
Thanksgiving,

1137
00:59:12,368 --> 00:59:17,772
actually, ~ to adopt the resolution which
was sixty one one sixty one

1138
00:59:17,772 --> 00:59:22,255
one five for the bottom fishing bottom
fishing pre ~ provisions.

1139
00:59:22,255 --> 00:59:24,176
And I was chairing

1140
00:59:24,395 --> 00:59:31,170
the meeting and I had this one country
that was potentially holding gonna hold
stuff

1141
00:59:31,170 --> 00:59:34,662
up and I went to them and I said

1142
00:59:35,118 --> 00:59:39,302
I'm going to do this and I know that's not
what you want.

1143
00:59:39,733 --> 00:59:40,733
Mm-hmm.

1144
00:59:40,183 --> 00:59:42,966
But I'm not going to ask you to agree to
this.

1145
00:59:42,966 --> 00:59:47,270
I'm just going to ask you to accept it.

1146
00:59:47,607 --> 00:59:48,607
Mm.

1147
00:59:49,712 --> 00:59:52,584
Because again, one of my other little
mantras don't ask me to say yes

1148
00:59:52,584 --> 00:59:55,206
and I won't say no. And that's basically

1149
00:59:53,983 --> 00:59:55,112
Right. Right.

1150
00:59:55,206 --> 01:00:00,230
what I did. And so then we got to the
moment of truth and,

1151
01:00:00,230 --> 01:00:03,013
you know, basically said, you know,

1152
01:00:03,013 --> 01:00:06,776
can everyone live with this? Can is there
anyone that objects to this?

1153
01:00:06,776 --> 01:00:10,449
~ not does everyone accept it,

1154
01:00:10,449 --> 01:00:14,302
but as and ~ they they didn't

1155
01:00:14,864 --> 01:00:19,277
put their hand up and we adopted it by
consensus and it went forward at like

1156
01:00:18,967 --> 01:00:19,967
Amazing.

1157
01:00:19,998 --> 01:00:22,139
nine AM on Thanksgiving morning.

1158
01:00:22,139 --> 01:00:23,139
And

1159
01:00:22,404 --> 01:00:23,404
wow.

1160
01:00:23,841 --> 01:00:28,384
and it was like it was it was super
intense because we had we just worked

1161
01:00:28,384 --> 01:00:31,707
all night and every you know, there were
so those were the moments where like

1162
01:00:31,987 --> 01:00:36,080
the fact that you had spent time in the
trenches with these with

1163
01:00:36,454 --> 01:00:39,316
people, I mean, I'm still friends with
people from that night,

1164
01:00:39,316 --> 01:00:41,127
from those days. Like I I'm still

1165
01:00:39,691 --> 01:00:41,000
Yeah. Yeah.

1166
01:00:41,127 --> 01:00:43,014
friends with some of them in the sense
that,

1167
01:00:43,014 --> 01:00:46,321
you know, you kinda go through that with
everyone.

1168
01:00:46,321 --> 01:00:48,463
And I mean I had situations where I had,

1169
01:00:48,463 --> 01:00:50,614
you know, delegations coming up to me and
they're like,

1170
01:00:50,614 --> 01:00:52,005
but I want this and I like, no,

1171
01:00:52,005 --> 01:00:53,140
we're not doing that. You know,

1172
01:00:53,140 --> 01:00:56,088
I mean I I you got to a point as a chair
where you had to basically

1173
01:00:56,389 --> 01:00:59,142
you had to direct it. ~ and

1174
01:00:58,592 --> 01:00:59,592
Yeah.

1175
01:00:59,142 --> 01:01:03,514
and y you know, but it took weeks of
getting to that point to where

1176
01:01:03,244 --> 01:01:04,244
Yeah.

1177
01:01:04,290 --> 01:01:07,715
now was the moment where I s I was like I
I was like,

1178
01:01:07,715 --> 01:01:12,923
We that's not gonna work and we're not
gonna go there like so,

1179
01:01:12,923 --> 01:01:15,517
you know and people kinda got to the point
where they trusted you.

1180
01:01:15,517 --> 01:01:16,879
They're like, All right, yeah,

1181
01:01:16,661 --> 01:01:17,661
Right.

1182
01:01:16,879 --> 01:01:17,879
okay.

1183
01:01:17,630 --> 01:01:19,964
You know, you're right. And ~

1184
01:01:18,967 --> 01:01:19,999
'Cause you weren't saying no

1185
01:01:19,999 --> 01:01:23,998
to something, it's just it's not gonna be
able to have it at this point in time,

1186
01:01:23,998 --> 01:01:24,998
right?

1187
01:01:24,442 --> 01:01:25,442
It's

1188
01:01:24,602 --> 01:01:26,353
not gonna it w it would blow it you know,

1189
01:01:26,353 --> 01:01:28,085
kinda blow everything up. Like we we'd

1190
01:01:27,744 --> 01:01:28,744
Yeah.

1191
01:01:28,085 --> 01:01:32,289
reach such a delicate place where everyone
was sort of like had a little bit,

1192
01:01:32,289 --> 01:01:34,210
everyone had a little bit that they could
live with.

1193
01:01:32,693 --> 01:01:34,802
Yeah. Yeah.

1194
01:01:34,210 --> 01:01:35,210
And

1195
01:01:35,211 --> 01:01:36,472
if someone got a little bit more,

1196
01:01:36,472 --> 01:01:38,024
it would tip the scales and then the

1197
01:01:37,686 --> 01:01:38,686
Right.

1198
01:01:38,024 --> 01:01:41,337
whole thing could fall apart. And but it
like I said,

1199
01:01:41,337 --> 01:01:44,940
it takes so much time to get to that point
where you

1200
01:01:44,587 --> 01:01:45,587
Mm-hmm.

1201
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:52,086
feel that you can speak plainly with
people and they will trust you to k

1202
01:01:52,262 --> 01:01:55,706
to to shepherd it forward and and get them
get them through the night

1203
01:01:55,986 --> 01:01:56,986
and that's what we did.

1204
01:01:56,149 --> 01:01:59,781
Yeah. That's amazing. Holly, this has been

1205
01:02:00,281 --> 01:02:02,092
such a pleasure to have you on the
podcast.

1206
01:02:02,092 --> 01:02:04,003
You are absolutely phenomenal.

1207
01:02:02,684 --> 01:02:04,197
Thank you. It was so much fun.

1208
01:02:04,854 --> 01:02:06,972
we we had a great I had a great time as
well.

1209
01:02:06,972 --> 01:02:10,387
I wanna thank you for joining us and love
to invite you back,

1210
01:02:10,387 --> 01:02:14,989
talk more ISSF, talk more stories of
international policy 'cause I'm sure

1211
01:02:11,875 --> 01:02:17,174
sure. Any time. Yes.

1212
01:02:14,989 --> 01:02:17,450
you have more. ~ but we really appreciate

1213
01:02:17,450 --> 01:02:18,631
you coming on. It's been a pleasure.

1214
01:02:19,502 --> 01:02:20,603
All right. Well thank you so much.

1215
01:02:20,603 --> 01:02:22,415
It was such a a fun time, Andrew,

1216
01:02:22,415 --> 01:02:25,358
and I really appreciate the opportunity to
chat with you about this and

1217
01:02:25,358 --> 01:02:29,372
and I'm be very happy to come back and and
share some more stories

1218
01:02:29,372 --> 01:02:30,893
and and have another conversation with
you.

1219
01:02:30,893 --> 01:02:31,893
It was it was a pleasure.

1220
01:02:32,353 --> 01:02:34,331
Fantastic. Love it. Talk to you soon.

1221
01:02:35,207 --> 01:02:36,207
Thank you.

1222
01:02:35,949 --> 01:02:38,882
Thank you, Holly, for joining me on
today's episode of the How to Protect

1223
01:02:38,882 --> 01:02:42,755
the Ocean podcast. Wow. That was amazing.

1224
01:02:42,755 --> 01:02:47,299
I loved every minute of that. Not only was
Holly like an infectious to speak to,

1225
01:02:47,299 --> 01:02:50,221
like she's just so like she's she's so
positive.

1226
01:02:50,221 --> 01:02:54,725
and and she's she's so passionate about
the work that she does.

1227
01:02:54,725 --> 01:02:56,897
She's had some great stories that she told
us.

1228
01:02:56,897 --> 01:03:01,091
~ and it was it was great to be able to
see how policy moves forward

1229
01:03:01,251 --> 01:03:02,742
and how some like negotiations,

1230
01:03:02,742 --> 01:03:03,742
although they're difficult,

1231
01:03:03,854 --> 01:03:07,597
There's certain ways to go about getting
the the answer that you want with

1232
01:03:07,597 --> 01:03:11,700
a little bit of compromise, but to move
that needle forward to in order

1233
01:03:11,700 --> 01:03:15,622
to get what you need to get. And this is
in the case in most cases

1234
01:03:15,622 --> 01:03:19,145
was like tuna fishing policy. And I just
think working with every part

1235
01:03:19,145 --> 01:03:20,610
of the supply chain is amazing.

1236
01:03:20,610 --> 01:03:22,987
~ Holly's amazing. The ISSF is amazing.

1237
01:03:22,987 --> 01:03:25,950
And so I'm really happy that we're able to
bring this interview to

1238
01:03:25,950 --> 01:03:29,212
you because I think we need to know more
about tuna,

1239
01:03:29,212 --> 01:03:30,693
right? Tuna fisheries and seeing.

1240
01:03:30,945 --> 01:03:34,838
what the latest things are happening
because I think it has a bad name overall
when

1241
01:03:34,838 --> 01:03:36,229
people think about tuna fisheries.

1242
01:03:36,229 --> 01:03:41,293
And but it's getting better as we as we
showed you with the interview from with
with

1243
01:03:41,293 --> 01:03:42,764
Susan Jackson earlier this year.

1244
01:03:42,764 --> 01:03:44,115
I'll link to it in the show notes.

1245
01:03:44,115 --> 01:03:45,746
~ but yeah I just think it's great.

1246
01:03:45,746 --> 01:03:48,599
If you have any questions or comments or
concerns about tuna fisheries,

1247
01:03:48,599 --> 01:03:50,170
I would love to hear that from you.

1248
01:03:50,170 --> 01:03:53,863
Just if you're on Spotify, you can comment
and you can let us know.

1249
01:03:53,863 --> 01:03:55,824
But also if you want to hit me up on my
socials,

1250
01:03:55,824 --> 01:03:56,824
Instagram, Facebook

1251
01:03:57,255 --> 01:03:58,936
or TikTok or any of the others,

1252
01:03:58,936 --> 01:04:00,267
the links are in the show notes.

1253
01:04:00,267 --> 01:04:05,151
And of course, I'll link to the ISSF
website ~ in ~ in the show notes as well

1254
01:04:05,151 --> 01:04:07,102
so you can check that out for all the
information,

1255
01:04:07,102 --> 01:04:09,153
all the resources, because that's what we
try and do here.

1256
01:04:09,153 --> 01:04:14,137
Provide a resource for you about the ocean
so that you can make better decisions

1257
01:04:14,277 --> 01:04:18,150
in your daily life in and around the ocean
so that we treat the ocean

1258
01:04:18,150 --> 01:04:21,202
a lot better than we thought we were doing
before.

1259
01:04:21,202 --> 01:04:22,402
So that's great. So thank you,

1260
01:04:22,402 --> 01:04:24,404
Holly. I appreciate it. Thank you to the
international

1261
01:04:24,634 --> 01:04:26,024
Seafood Sustainability Foundation.

1262
01:04:26,024 --> 01:04:27,805
We really appreciate you lending us,

1263
01:04:27,805 --> 01:04:31,266
Holly, for the ~ hour or so that we
actually were able to chat.

1264
01:04:31,266 --> 01:04:33,647
it was great to be able to talk to her.

1265
01:04:33,647 --> 01:04:37,818
And I want to thank you for joining us and
listening to this episode ~

1266
01:04:37,818 --> 01:04:38,868
and to all the other episodes,

1267
01:04:38,868 --> 01:04:42,729
Monday to Friday. Hit that follow button
if you enjoy this type of content.

1268
01:04:42,729 --> 01:04:45,430
And I want to thank you so much for
joining me on today's episode of

1269
01:04:45,430 --> 01:04:46,871
the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

1270
01:04:46,871 --> 01:04:49,361
I am your host, Andrew Lewin. Have a great
weekend.

1271
01:04:49,361 --> 01:04:51,702
We'll talk to you on Monday and happy
conservation.