Our Ocean to Save: Emily Cunningham on Protecting Our Greatest Climate Ally

0:00 Did you ever think that when we talk about climate change, that it has to do with the ocean? I always tell people that you can't talk about climate change without talking about changes that are happening to the ocean, because climate is ocean and ocean is climate. And there's a new book that's out from a dear friend of mine and colleague, Emily Cunningham, who's a marine biologist in the UK, and she came out with a book called Our Ocean to Save: How to Protect Our Greatest Climate Ally. And I was really happy to see this book come out. it's a great time because I've been having a lot of conversations with people about climate change and about the ocean, and the connection's just not there. And when we start talking about these types of connections and we look at how to make those changes, especially from a global level, it's really difficult and it's foggy and it's hard to attribute who's done what and what country's responsible for what.

0:53 and so to the actions that need to be done on a global level get really convoluted and complex. But when you look at it from a local level, you start to look at how things can be done one thing at a time, bringing communities together, building that confidence in creating change in like environmental change within communities, and I think that leads to bigger and better things. We just talked about it last week on the podcast where we talked about how one town in Tofino, Canada built a system to reduce plastic. They didn't have to clean up the beaches from plastic anymore because it was significantly reduced, and then that went to the province to say, "Hey, we need to implement this more to other places because of the way the policy works there." And then it went to a global treaty because of the movement.

1:37 and I think that is what we really need, is to really come together locally as a community, especially after what the world has been through over the last few years, and we need to, start to act locally and think globally, Just going back to what that said. So Emily has joined us on the podcast today to discuss all the wonderful things about her book, what she wants you to get out of that book, and how acting locally can really help you and your community. So here's the interview with Emily Cunningham on her book, Our Ocean to Save: How to Protect Our Greatest Climate Ally. Enjoy the interview, and I'll talk to you after. Hey, Emily. Welcome back to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about your book, your new book, Our Ocean to Save?

2:19 I am absolutely ready. Thank you so much for the opportunity to chat again You bet. This is going to be a lot of fun. I can't wait to talk about this book and what goes into writing a book, especially when you have a full-time job. we know how hard it is, like, to run a podcast and have a full-time job, and now we're gonna be talking about your book and how that works and how that's been working over the last, I think it took, you said it took you three years- Yeah … to write it. So we're gonna get into all of that fun stuff. But, just before we continue, Emily, why don't you just remind the audience of who you are and what you do? Sure. So I'm Emily Cunningham. I am a British marine biologist, ocean conservationist, and as of last week, now an author. And I live in Cornwall in the UK.

3:00 And, yeah, I've worked in the field for 15 years, and yeah, super excited to be sharing this book with the world. Can't believe it's out in the world, to be honest. And now, it's been interesting to watch your career progress, over the last 15 years. We've been chatting over that time. we met face-to-face in Malaysia for the first time, and that was cool. And, and we had an interview there, and we talked about sort of how you've been working in the past with like governments and to put in like conservation and, you recently worked for WWF, but you've done a lot of things. and you probably put that all in the book. So I guess the first thing is what made you decide that you were going to torture yourself to write a book?

3:42 I say that in jest, but to write a book and just be like, and put what you wanted out there. Yeah. So it came from what I think is a common misconception that people don't care about the ocean. I think it's a really lazy narrative that we often hear in our sector is that like, "Oh, the public- Mm … doesn't care about the ocean. They don't care about ocean conservation." But that wasn't my experience. In fact, I get approached all of the time by people saying, "What can I do to help? How can I help? How can I do something useful?" And I didn't really have anything that I could signpost people to. There was always kind of lists of what not to do, lots of don'ts and can'ts and shouldn'ts, but there wasn't anything that was positive and that really said what anyone, anywhere, no matter what their background, could do.

4:27 And I would say this book has lived in my head and my heart for over 10 years, and it kind of really started around when "Blue Planet II" was on the TV, and- Mm-hmm we had the Blue Planet effect, and there was just this huge upsurge in passion and interest in ocean conservation issues, particularly in the UK. But I don't feel that as a sector we really managed to turn that awareness into action. And again, at that time, I was working for a national NGO, a wildlife NGO, and I wish I'd had something positive that I could, signpost those people to that showed what you could do. And so the idea was there. I lacked the confidence, the network, the knowhow.

5:11 I had no idea how you wrote a book. My imposter syndrome said, "You can't write a book." And so I kind of just like tried to suppress it. And, then in 2023, I was working in Antarctica on an expedition ship, and I heard that they had commissioned "Blue Planet III"- And I thought, "Right- Mm the time is now, Emily. It's big girl pants time. You need to find out actually if this book can be a thing." And so I logged on from the ship, from the, terrible ship internet and big seas. Like, imagine the Drake Passage, the roughest seas of my life. And I was like- Yeah. … "How do you write a book?" book proposal, what does that look like? Then I found a course, and so on the ship I was doing this book proposal course, how to write a book proposal, and, learnt what you do to write a nonfiction book, which is you write- Yeah … a book proposal, you pitch it to an agent, your agent pitches it to a publisher.

6:01 Yeah. And then hopefully you get a book deal. And here I am, because luckily I found a wonderful agent, and she got me two incredible book deals, one in the UK and one in North America, and now I have a book. So yeah, a long time in the coming. Well, congratulations. I mean, that's amazing. it's not easy to just, come up, write a proposal. Obviously, you took a course on doing it, and then, going to an agent, and then that agent taking it, saying, believing in you, and being like, "Okay, this is gonna be a great book," and then publishing it to a publisher. Was the first agent you contacted the one that said, "Yes," like, this is a great idea," or did you have to contact a few? So I had one of those sort of planets aligning kind of experiences. So I had been writing my- Okay … proposal and had a little spreadsheet of which agents I was going to, reach out to.

6:47 And then I actually did a thread on Twitter, as it was back then, before it became a bin fire, of- Yeah. … you know, what it was like being in Antarctica, and this thread went viral. And, an agent got in touch with me and said: Have you ever thought about writing a book that kind of brings together ocean and climate and your stories from the field? And I was like , "Yes, Maria, I have been thinking of a book about that." And so she is Maria Cardona-Sarah. she's a fantastic literary agent. She became my literary agent, and yeah, I just, I almost can't believe. It was a bit Hollywood. I can't believe that happened, but yeah. it was wonderful. Well, when you put yourself out there like that, you're very, transparent, you're very forthcoming on social media, I feel like people get you.

7:30 Like, it's easy to trust. Like, you and Daniel, your husband, you guys have been very good at, almost documenting your journeys through this ocean field, this ocean conservation, marine conservation field. and it's been incredible to watch, as I mentioned earlier. and, it's interesting the title of the book, so "Our Ocean to Save: How Can You Protect the Greatest Climate Ally?" I love the tagline. I feel like people need to hear that, and I'll tell you why. I remember looking at Toronto Climate Week, New York Climate Week, it's all about climate change, it's all about solutions. they bring in businesses and corporations and scientists and everything like that And there's like one day dedicated to the ocean, and if that, or one session dedicated to the ocean.

8:17 And it drives me insane. So when you came to me and be like, "Hey, I'm writing a book. Like when I release it, can I come on the pod?" I'm like, "Yeah, absolutely." Like- Yeah … you never had to ask. You're just like, "Hey, Andrew, I just wrote this book." I was like, "Are you kidding me?" Like, this is the best. Like, this is what we need. We need people to know more about how the ocean is really climate. I always say that the ocean is climate, that's what really regulates it or changes it, and as the ocean changes, the climate changes. But for you, what was that piece to say we need to connect climate and oceans together for the audience that you were reaching?

8:57 it really came from when the Climate COP was in Glasgow. so- Mm … which was 2021, I think. And just the f- the frustration that you've just articulated, which was, the science is clear. Is it a messaging gap, a storytelling gap? Why are we not able to, even reach that climate warm, excuse the pun, community of people- Mm-hmm who are, working to tackle climate change, and even they aren't aware of the role of the ocean as a climate ally, as a climate regulator, however you wanna frame it. that was also the catalyst for our, Motion of the Ocean, Local Government Ocean Recovery Declaration that I co-founded with Dr. Pamela Buchan and Nicola Bridge here in the UK, which was again recognizing lots of local authorities and governments had seen the value of the Climate Emergency Declaration.

9:42 The ocean wasn't in any of those. And so it was, again, another- Mm-hmm … seed in my mind, like if I write this book, which is about how anyone, anywhere can help the ocean, it has to have a strong climate thread, theme, message. And then I realized actually it needed to be like you just said, ocean is climate, climate is ocean. They weren't two concurrent things. They are absolutely entwined. And so, I was very lucky that both the title and the subtitle, came to me when I was in Antarctica, which, really you're looking climate change straight in the face. It's one of the most rapidly- Yeah … warming places on the planet. And I remember being on the deck one day, we do, I think I was looking for whales, and just had this moment. I was like, "That's it. That's what I need to, have the tagline of the book be." And, luckily the publisher liked it, so I got to keep it.

10:28 Well, I mean, it, it makes sense, it brings you that realization. We do get inspired being on the water, and looking at nature to be like, as marine biologists, when you're out on the ocean, there's nothing better. it doesn't matter the seas, it's beautiful. it's chaotic at times, but it's also, we learn so much from those field trips, from those- Yeah … those occasions. And to be able to talk about it after, to be like, "This is the moment." Like- Mm-hmm … there is never a better sunset or sunrise than on the water. No. nobody could ever convince me otherwise. Like it's absolutely beautiful. And so that's what I love being out, and it inspires you, it makes you think, it makes you be creative and be like, "Okay, cool, like this is what I wanna do." So I, I love that. one thing that's interesting here in Canada too, is that, we have a lot of forests here.

11:10 Mm-hmm. And a lot of times when people equate climate and climate solutions, and even like the lungs of the planet, we start talking about forests. Mm-hmm. it's often the things that we can see, and obviously when wildfires happen, it gets worse. But like why do you think people are so enamored by like, the forests are the lungs of the planet when it's really the oceans? I think it's like you said, because it's visible. no matter where we grow up, we've probably had some kind of interaction with a tree. We've seen one in the garden or the park or at school or something. Obviously, there's some parts of the planet that don't have trees, but mostly we see trees. And I think it's because the ocean is so out of sight, out of mind, even if you live in a coastal place, even if you live on a lake, if you're looking out over a lake Ontario- Yeah for example, you wouldn't know that it was full of phytoplankton and that that phytoplankton is the lungs of the planet.

12:01 every second breath we take comes from the ocean in some form. And, I think it is often quite hard to get people excited about phytoplankton. I mean, I'm excited about phytoplankton, but I do recognize that, when you run education events or awareness or whatever we're doing and, you take a plankton sample and you bring it out and it's like, "Look at this, this life-giving brown goo," you know? It's not, it's not charismatic. And so- Right … you know, I think once you put it under a microscope and you just- Sure … and it's beautiful. You know, people have tattoos of phytoplankton because it's so, the shapes- Yes … are so stunning. Um- Yeah … but yeah, it can be quite hard to, tell that story of, how these are so important in terms of, taking carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, turning it into the oxygen we breathe, playing a really important, being the foundation of the ocean ecosystem.

12:49 so I sometimes try and tell the story from, if we didn't have them, we wouldn't have whales, et cetera, et cetera. But, for most people, you know, if you never learn about the ocean at school, as most people don't, then how would you ever- Right … be exposed to that information? And so, yeah, it kind of came from there of wanting to try and really shout about well, how cool and important those things are. Yeah. Well, and I think it's interesting too when you say that, because in your book you talk about how you got into loving the oceans. You know- Yeah … growing up in a landlocked area, I would say. obviously- Yeah … the UK's an island, so you can always get to there. I don't know if I'm pronouncing this properly. Is, is it Staffordshire or Staffordshire? How do you pronounce it? It's Staffordshire if you're English, but either's great.

13:31 Yeah. So, um- Okay. So I'll, I'll- Yeah … try and go with the local, like local Staffordshire. Okay. So growing up there, like far from the sea- as much as you can in England, like to be- Yeah … as far. And then you, have the, and I love this, this comment. You had a CD-ROM of I guess Florida manatees, right? Yeah. There was like a documentary about Florida manatees. Is that what it was? It was a game. Was it a movie or was it just- It was like a game. A game. It was like, it had all these- Okay … at the beginning, like all these grayed out animals, and then you had to- Yeah … complete all these tasks and games and learning, and then the animal got colored in, and you had to try and complete the picture. And one of the animals- Okay … was the Florida manatee, and I had no idea what it was. Yeah. You know, this sort of weird half walrus, dolphin thing. Didn't even know it was real. I remember clicking on it and going through the tasks and, there were things like, you had to learn what they ate and whatever.

14:17 And there was a moment and it said that manatees interact and socialize by kissing, and that like- Mm-hmm … obviously it's not kissing, but that's how it described it. Yeah. And it captured- Yeah … my little heart,, my little- Mm-hmm … sort of eight-year-old heart in England. It's thousands of miles away from Florida, where Florida manatees obviously live. and then as the game went on, it said, they are endangered. And I just, I remember feeling so worried about there being a future that wouldn't have this lovely kissing animal- Mm-hmm … in it. and that was- Mm-hmm … kind of my first exposure to species being endangered and this idea of a future that might not have animals I loved in it. And, yeah, it really set me on my path much more than any kind of, I didn't have an ocean childhood.

15:01 I didn't have, proximity to the ocean. It wasn't a big part of my identity or my life. I was very lucky that I got to go to the seaside to stay with my auntie and uncle in the summer, which was magical beyond belief. But, I wasn't a, wasn't a surfy kid. I wasn't a salty kid at all. I was a landlocked kid. Right. Yeah. Yeah, which is funny 'cause I mean, I'm the same way. We had the Great Lakes, around Ontario, from a salt perspective, no, there was no salt unless you're looking at the salt we put on the roads that get into the fresh water when here in Canada. but I, found it interesting too, you got interested in marine biology. You want, to be a marine biologist in this town. And you had some teachers who were kinda like saying, "Hey, pick something more, quote unquote 'realistic.'" Yeah. So, obviously you didn't listen to that advice. No. What, so what kept that eight-year-old girl, from this working class, town, in the Midlands on this path to be a marine biologist?

15:49 What kept you motivated? it's probably 99% stubbornness that I just knew that was what I wanted to do. And I can't, explain. It just was this sort of fire in my belly that I just wanted to try it, even though I didn't know what it meant. And it was almost like I couldn't answer the question, "Well, what job will you get?" "I don't know. I'll just be a marine biologist." what does it lead to?" And I was like, "I don't know. I'll just be a marine biologist." And I think it's probably that blind faith that comes with youth, and maybe because- Yes I was very lucky that I didn't particularly have expectations on my head from my parents. I was the first one in my family to go to university. My parents have always been very supportive, and there wasn't sort of this, following the family footsteps or following the family… It wasn't anything like that.

16:31 They very much wanted me just to be happy. And although- Mm-hmm … they themselves, , like my teachers, I remember going into a meeting at school and very well-intentioned all the adults in my life saying, "Do you think you might want to consider something a bit more realistic, Emily? You want to go to university, but maybe you should go and do something like biology and then specialize later." And I was just like, "Thank you very much, but I know that this is what I want to do." And I sort of, Maybe it's not easy, but for me at that time, I didn't have anything to lose. It was just what I wanted- Yeah … to try for my life. And, maybe if I was doing that decision now, you'd be thinking about like, "Oh, how much does it pay?" And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it was just that, I guess, blind naivety of- Yeah … being 14 or 15 or whenever it was at that time, and just kinda going for it. And yeah, I, ugh, no regrets.

17:13 I love it. I'm so glad I went for it. I-- Oh, I'm glad. I'm glad. I have to ask too, because, when I was in high school, I had this story. But when you were in high school and you did projects, say like a biology project- Mm-hmm … and they probably wanted you to do it on human biology, did you try and do it, pitch like, "I wanna do it on marine mammals," or, "I wanna do it on like marine, something marine"? did you try and do those, and were you successful? never in biology. I think we were quite prescribed. But when we would have like creative writing or anything that we were- Yeah … given the freedom to think about what to do, it was like, "Oh, look, Emily's writing about the ocean again," or, "Oh, look, Emily's writing about dolphins." I mean, literally Dolphin Girl. That's, I just, I've carried that my whole life, and I'm okay with it, it's fine. Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. There's worse things at high school to be called than Dolphin Girl.

17:54 Yeah. What other title they got, right? It's a good way to like to control your nickname is just Dolphin Girl. Like that's- Yeah. Oh, I'm okay with that. It's fine … that, I like that. I like that. I have to admit, I did that with my biology teacher. I always like, "I know we're doing this on humans, but, mammals are pretty close to us. Can I do a comparison?" Yeah. And I would bring in like dolphins or I'd bring in something. I annoyed that-- Like every time I went up, my teacher's like, "All right, Andrew, what animal do you wanna do it on now?" And I'm like, "Not humans, that's for sure. Let's try something else." And then I was very fortunate they allowed me to do it. And I think, it was a fun, and I'm glad, you get the teachers who allow you to do that, like creative writing, whatever that might be, to allow you to explore these types of avenues. for this book it's a lot of like your life growing up and going to marine biology.

18:37 looking at, different experiences at, when you're a kid looking at like what was lost already. and you mention, as you started to discover things, you realize like there's this shifting baseline that we have. Yeah. Can you explain that term? we know what it is in science, but a lot of the times when I try to explain it to friends and family, there's like, "I just don't, I don't get it." Do you wanna just talk a little bit about shifting baselines and what experience led you to kind of discover that? Yeah. So I'd learnt about it at university in a very scientific sense, like you just said, shifting baseline syndrome, which is that we assume that the current state of the natural world is normal, and so we don't really- Mm-hmm … think it could have been different, better- Mm-hmm … in the past or different, better in the future.

19:24 And I'd, read about it, I, you know, understood it conceptually. And then when I was writing the book, I realized, I was like, " that's what I have experienced." And I hadn't ever connected the two as this emotional feeling and this sort of theoretical concept. And I think what I mean by emotional feeling is that although I know that marine wildlife has declined, it's when I was really researching the scale of that loss. And so I, did some very specific research about North Wales, which is where I went to university. It's where I had gone as a child to stay with my auntie and uncle. And I sort of thought about my own experience as a child, which I thought it was wonderful, and then my experience as an undergraduate, and I thought it was wonderful. And then reading these kind of historical ecology papers of what it would have looked like in the 18th, 19th century, and just feeling robbed, completely robbed of, an abundance that I could barely even imagine.

20:16 I tried to picture myself standing on those headlands that I knew so well, those cliffs overlooking the sea. And whereas I might be delighted to have seen one or two porpoises, harbor porpoises, and felt like- Mm-hmm … I'd had a great day out, to then understand that there would've been times in the past where the sea was dark with the scale of fish and maybe thousands of dolphins and porpoises. And- I think we often talk about biodiversity loss, but we forget we've had a huge abundance loss, so in terms of the number of animals that we might have seen. And so for me, it was like this real kind of light bulb moment of, okay, that is what we've lost. But that shifting baseline syndrome, we often talk about it looking backwards, but how do I think about it looking forwards in terms of not letting my own perceptions of normal be a limitation in what- Yeah When I think about what the ocean might look like in the future and the ocean I want to see in the future.

21:08 So yeah, it was a helpful hook, and actually a lot of readers have said that that's been a real moment for them as well. So that's nice to know I've managed to bring- fairly dry academic thing to hopefully to life a little bit for folk. Well, I mean, it, puts in things into perspective, we don't know what we don't know. Like if we didn't experience it. I remember speaking to a lot of coral reef biologists who used to be like, "Andrew, you have no idea what it was like in the '70s to dive." And then if you go diving now, you could be excited to see, like, a cool wrasse or, like, a puffer fish, and you're just like, "Oh, this is really cool. Like, I'm glad I saw this." But then, like, you could talk to somebody who dove on that 30, 40 years ago, and they're like, "Yeah, there were, like, thousands of them.

21:48 You couldn't even like, swim through 'cause there's so many fish." and you're just like, "Oh, okay. That sucks." Like, it can be devastating as someone who's not a marine biologist to hear that, It's a tough thing to really understand, even as a marine biologist, where you're just like, "Oh man, that sucks." Like, it brings your emotions down, you start- Yeah … to get sad. You start to get a little anxious about what we're doing. We see what we continue to do. And we have the knowledge of that's actually happening. But when somebody who's not studying this on a regular basis or not getting this knowledge on a regular basis, how do you recommend that they cope with it? Like, how do you cope with it, and how would you recommend somebody cope with knowing about the loss that we've seen?

22:29 So I think there is, allowing yourself to feel grief, and that is something that I hadn't realized that that was the emotion I was feeling, sort of grieving what we had lost and understanding that some things are lost forever. But then also recognizing that there are so many examples of where habitats and species have been brought back from the brink because we know what we need to do. And when we put our minds together, we work together, we fund it properly, we enforce it, things do recover. And so I would encourage people to try and channel that grief, eco-anxiety, whatever that feeling is for you, into doing something about it, whatever that means for you.

23:12 And so in the book, in the second half, I try and give examples, from normal people all around the world who are doing that. because for me, my eco-anxiety at some points in my life have felt completely overwhelming. And, I think a career in conservation, there are moments where it is like, I'm like- Mm-hmm … how could I ever do enough? Are there ways I could ever do enough? But actually, if you find your community of others who are doing enough, I'm having a bad day and I listen to this podcast and I hear about somebody else in the world who is doing something brilliant, and I sit there with my cup of tea and I'm like, "We got this. We really got this." Yeah. It's not on your shoulders individually. Find your people- Yeah … and, just channel that feeling to doing what you can.

23:54 Yeah. I think you're right. And I think, the advice that was given out 10, 15 years or even longer than that, the think globally, act locally really- Exactly works out in terms of seeing the, encouragement that you can get by doing local things for your community, for- Yeah … local governments. you've had that experience as well, with local governments looking at how to transform and how to get people to think about it or just implement things, where people are like, "Yeah, that makes sense." I constantly talk to people about, global climate change and all this kind, and there's so many stops and there's so many barriers and challenges just from everybody's own perception of what can be done. The governments, like, internationally not working together or working on different pages to do something, and then there's just individuals who are like, "Well, if they're not doing anything, like, what can we really do?"

24:44 But I do think, like, that working on a community-based level can really bring spirits up and really help, bring the community together to get something done. You've had that experience with the councils and, you're now working for a council and, Yeah … to be able to do that. when you had that experience, can you just kinda like briefly talk about that experience and then just kinda talk about how people felt after being a part of that? So my career had started mostly in the NGO conservation organization space, and I, think I had been led to believe, maybe not actively, but that politicians don't care about the ocean, and that meant all politicians. I just had this idea that I would have to convince everybody to care.

25:24 And I started to engage with politicians at a national level and found that that wasn't the case actually. There was politicians from across the political spectrum who were interested and followed up and actually did the things that I asked them to do. And then when I, co-founded the Motion for the Ocean, which is the local government ocean recovery declaration, so that's all the things that are within a kind of local government's power, and gift related to the ocean, so things as diverse as planning decisions, education, waste management, lots of things. And It's honestly been the greatest joy of my life to have met and worked with these politicians who, I mean, genuinely across the political spectrum in the UK, of all different demographics themselves, all across the country. So not just coastal, we've got inland councils, so in big cities in the Midlands, which, as a Midlands girl, I'm so proud of.

26:10 And for a lot of those people, whether it's the councilors themselves or the council officers, or often it's come from the communities who have lobbied their councils to pass this declaration, there is a feeling of, we actually can do something and it helps build community around this kind of blueprint that we've created. it gets quite addictive when you, when you know that you're kind of creating change. So I think people who probably haven't acted in that space maybe, and we have worked very closely with the British Sub-Aqua Club, which is our, scuba diving, governing body here- Yeah in the UK, and they are big supporters of the Motion for the Ocean, and they've promoted it out to their 27,000 members who are scuba divers in the UK. And a lot of those people, they've never really engaged in advocacy or, activism.

26:52 Obviously, there's a spectrum within that. and I get these emails often really late at night where they're like, "I've written to my councilor. I can't wait to see what they say," or a message saying, "My councilor's replied. We're gonna take it forward." And, it's just a joy for me to have been that very small part in starting that ripple effect. So, you never believe, if you don't try, you won't get. Absolutely. what do you think stops people from starting, a community project or something local? What is it that big barrier? there's a few. So I think there is a confidence gap or fear, we've lost so much community cohesion in the 21st century that people often don't know their neighbors. They aren't maybe engaged with their community. They're a bit scared of putting themselves out there. obviously people have less time.

27:34 We have a lot more responsibilities. The cost of living crisis. There's all of these things that are conspiring to make it harder to have the time and energy to do any kind of- Mm-hmm … community building or whatever your part of that might be. but I really encourage people to try, because even if you find two other people in your community who care about what you care about, it means it's not just on you to do it. And, some of my best friends are people I've met through this work. It brings so much joy. Yeah. like when we talked earlier about that eco-anxiety, it just means that you're not going through it on your own, which really makes a difference for me. Yeah. Yeah. it's a really cool effect when you start to see people enact change.

28:14 and it's fun to interact and to talk. And it is, addictive, once you start to see that as, you mentioned. Yeah. it's kind of interesting though, too, 'cause as I mentioned before, when you start to look at some, major activities or major issues like climate change and even overfishing, we have these thoughts in our heads if we're not directly involved with overfishing or some of these issues, that there are some bad players in these systems, and sometimes we think that maybe some of those players are threats, but they're not. They might just be people who are just trying to survive, it's a complex issue in terms of like- Mm … say, illegal fishing- Yeah … or trying to just, you know, a difference between illegal fishing, but maybe illegal fishing to feed your families.

29:00 we're starting to look at these, some of them are almost victims of the process, but they get vilified. Yeah. Can you just talk a little about that? 'Cause you address that in your book, like that threats are symptoms, and I'd just love to hear your thoughts on that and what you want people to get out of that. Yeah. So I wanted to talk about that because I think, going through a marine biology degree, you hear about poaching and illegal fishing and, all of these things. And I sit there in my lecture hall in the UK and I'm going, "They are bad people. How selfish." Right. "Just trying to make a quick buck." After my master's, I went out to Sri Lanka and volunteered at a community-led sea turtle conservation project, which had been set up by the local community. And it was an incredible learning experience for me to learn from them.

29:40 in that role, I mean, I'm a bit of a chatty girl, you might have noticed, so I had made friends with all the ladies in the village, and I would go from house to house having tea and biscuits and we did the turtle work in the evening. In the daytime, I would go around and chat with everybody. And that's when I really got to understand why there was a poaching problem in their village. I started to understand that a lot of them had been driven to poaching because there was no longer a viable way to make a living from fishing. That if a turtle turned up in your net, then you'd keep it so you could eat it or sell it. That people sold the eggs because they could make more money by selling turtle eggs than they could ever dream of making from any of the other opportunities in their area. many of the men from that village had to go and seek very tough work abroad.

30:23 Mm-hmm. And it just made me realize how ignorant, naive, privileged I had been to hold such kind of lazy views, And so I really- Mm-hmm … wanted to try and bring that off and was so honored that a lot of the people that I went, worked with and have stayed in touch with in Sri Lanka were happy for me to share their words and thoughts in different ways in the book. And just to kind of get across that actually it's very easy to judge from a place of privilege and distance. And often these issues that we think of as ocean conservation threats are really symptoms of wider societal issues and what I would call ocean injustice, that the coastal communities that depend on the ocean are often the ones who are suffering most from these impacts that we talk about- Yeah … and are often the least equipped to be able to deal with them because they live, whether it's in a challenging economy or, for various different social reasons.

31:18 So I just wanted people to not be too, finger-pointing necessarily that, "Oh, it's someone else doing that. Why would I bother?" And just try and understand actually how our actions, our decisions, our buying choices might be able to influence that for the better, not just for the marine ecosystems, but for people who depend on the ocean worldwide. I mean, some of whom I'm very honored to be able to call my friends. So yeah, I was very grateful that they let me share their words in that, because that's a big deal for them. So yeah, just to say that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. it's amazing once we start to speak to local communities abroad, from wherever we grew up and learned about marine biology, to really understand what they're going through.

32:00 A lot of the times it's a systemic thing. Poverty, whatever was happening in that country from like, I mean, Sri Lanka was just got out of a civil war not long ago. like there's a lot of real things that happen there that can prevent people from- Yep … focusing on conservation. and they have to survive. Their families have to survive, so they will do what they need to do to survive. And I think conservation a lot of times is, working with, communities to help solve those other problems so that conservation can become a priority. Have you ever come across that are you seeing that in your travels and you're seeing that with your work? Yeah. part of the reason I wanted to share that story and a couple of the other ones is because those conservation projects were started by the community.

32:44 Those communities who are suffering those impacts every day in really difficult conditions, they are still prioritizing conservation, or there are people within the community who are prioritizing conservation as best they can. And so I wanted to, really make that clear that if they can do it in that challenging context, then there is no excuse for those of us with much more- Mm-hmm … privilege to not make conservation a priority. And, , conservation is always most effective when it's done with communities- Yeah by which I mean co-developed work, with communities very much in the driving seat. And I've seen some very good and some very bad example of that. And this sector has, I think, a long way to go to really recognize that, I think that's the key.

33:25 Yeah. Yeah, for sure. another part of your book you go through is the fact that recovery is a real thing and recovery is happening. Yeah. And one of the examples a lot of people say is like, I mentioned it earlier, a lot of governments will focus on, continuing planting trees, but then we have wildfires, that rage across countries and- Yeah … and things. you kind of write about that. and even like marine restoration, people are like, "Well, it's not worth it because unless you protect everything." I think there was a new study about kelp forests that came out recently, and it's like, unless we protect what's already there, the restoration effort's not gonna replace what we're gonna lose or what we've already lost, 'cause we just can't do it fast enough.

34:07 But there are times, like, restoration works it might be a Band-Aid, but it could help. And, I'd love to hear your, opinion on that and what you write in the book about that, because I think a lot of people like to see things being done, and restoration is a thing that gets done. You can see it happening. People participate. It could be like a community thing. So I'd love to hear your, thoughts on that. Yeah. So I was very much a restoration skeptic. I found myself sitting in meetings feeling very frustrated that we were talking again about planting seagrass and restoring oysters, and we weren't focusing on the issues that were driving the decline. And I likened it to trying to replant trees whilst the forest is still on fire.

34:48 And then I think it was probably through the course of the book and I was like, I need to, challenge myself on this. And I, explored, I read a lot, I spoke to people all around the world who were involved with restoration or were, skeptical of restoration. And actually, my conclusion was that restoration is within the toolkit of marine recovery, a really important part. So restoring things, so active restoration, seagrass planting, kelp restoration, whatever it might be, mangrove restoration, is not the only thing. So we can't just do that and ignore the work that needs to be done to tackle water quality, so pollution, climate, cutting greenhouse gas emissions, all of that bigger picture stuff.

35:30 But actually the additional value that I hadn't really considered about restoration was how it can be an engagement tool for people who would never engage with those other conservation challenges perhaps, and that other kind of passive restoration work that we might do, which is- trying to reduce nutrient pollution or something. It's quite hard to get people excited- Yeah … about reducing nutrient pollution, but we can get people excited about planting seagrass. And actually what I saw- Yeah … was just these, I talk about the Billion Oyster Project in New York, which is trying to restore a billion oysters to New York Harbor. Yeah. And I thought, well, if they can do it there, they've engaged thousands of people from communities that wouldn't ordinarily have been engaged or excited about oysters- Yeah … and water quality and, Right … all that comes with it with a healthy marine ecosystem.

36:12 And so it really flipped my mindset of being, okay, restoration has its place. Done well, it can be a super effective tool and also as a kind of way to, get people on the ladder of engagement from disinterested to feeling hopeful. And because, I mean, I know I talk about hope, and hope can be a bit of a dirty word, I think, in our sector. It feels a bit wishy-washy, like it's wishful thinking- Mm-hmm like it's passive. But for me, hope's a verb. And actually once you've got that moment of, okay, actually, well, if we can restore oysters to New York, what else could we do? And it kind of snowballs from there. So I am a convert to- Yeah. Well, and- … to the value of restoration. Absolutely. And I, mean, going further with New York Harbor, it wasn't just the Billion Oyster Project.

36:53 No, no. I mean, we saw the cleaning up of chemicals like- Exactly … wastewater treatment plants that got upgraded in one of the biggest cities in North America. Yep. And then you get the menhaden that come back, you get the seals that come back, you get the whales that come back. Whales. And now there is a paper where there's like a great white nursery habitat that goes from like New York, up near like Massachusetts now down to like New Jersey in like a little triangle. And you're starting to see juvenile great whites out there, and you're just like, "Okay, we thought we'd lost this." And things can recover. Yeah. But we're not always gonna get that to happen. We've lost stuff that we probably won't get back. Yep. But it doesn't necessarily mean that that, is lost, it means that, the world's gonna look a little bit different- Yeah … in the future.

37:39 and so I guess the question I have to ask, like, 'cause I ask people this a lot, is like, what does the future for the oceans look to you? Like what are we looking at here? I mean, if we carry on business as usual, at the end of my life, which I hope is a while away, but let's say I've got another 50 years of life left, there won't be coral reefs. Coral reefs will not exist in the way we have them. The rate of loss of seagrass, for example, it won't support the manatees that I fell in love with as a child. We've already seen, a huge mortality of manatees because of the loss of seagrass and a, harmful algal bloom. We'll have more dead zones in the ocean. it's not just those wonderful creatures that will be lost. The reason that I started to care, it's like actually the knock-on effect of what a degraded ocean will be able to do for humanity.

38:22 So, I think about the billions of people that rely on the ocean for their food or their livelihood. What does that mean- Mm-hmm … in terms of, mass migration and increasing poverty and increasing gap in those people's lives? Yeah. , We talk about climate refugees. If we don't keep the warming down, then, the amount, I think it's hundreds of thousands of people will have to move from lower-lying areas. And, … if we think about the polar regions, which I've been so lucky to get to go to, they will be unrecognizable just within my lifetime if we don't change. And I think what I find so frustrating is that those changes are not that significant to make. They are totally doable. They're totally affordable. Yeah. And there is no downside to us doing those things.

39:04 Yeah. We have a more habitable planet. We have, greater, social justice. We have improved quality of life for billions of people around the world. I mean, I can't see the catch. No, for sure. Like, I think you're right. I think there is hope. but I think there's like this game that people are playing and governments are playing, I find. it's who's responsible for the change. a lot of times, like individuals need to do this, and you need to stop using single-use plastic. You need to go for sustainable seafood, and there's certain things that you can do, you can control as a consumer. But there's a limitation on that, and there's a time where governments, local, whether it be provincial or, state, and then federal governments need to step in and need to do the work.

39:47 corporations of course, as well. But like what answer do you want people to give, at the end of this book? Like, who's responsible for making these changes truly? So I would say that it's all of us. And I know that sounds vague, but what I mean by that is if we are lucky enough to live in a functioning democracy, as most of us, I would imagine most of the people listening to this now hopefully will be, is that our governments are a representation of us. And so we have the gift of a process where we can hold them to account, and we are the ones who get to decide if they keep their jobs every four to five years. And so, I don't say that your civic duty or your ocean duty starts and stops with voting, but actually it's very easy to blame a government if you then didn't bother to try and influence it, either its election or, engage with the democratic process at whatever level, whether it's local, national, whatever.

40:44 and so, I think that it's very easy to just be like, "Oh, the government doesn't care." It's like, did you try and make them care? Did you try and engage with them? Did you use your skills and network and community? Because actually throughout all of human history, we've seen social change, and conservation is a social change issue. And actually a lot of those big changes that we have seen, whether it's, the civil rights movement, lots of, really incredible wins that we've had came from people not taking no for an answer, people pushing against- Mm-hmm … systems that were stacked against them and mobilizing together to call for change they wanted to see. And there's actually, really good evidence that we only need about one in four, so about 25% of a population to buy into an ideal for it to kind of push past this threshold that it becomes kind of what society wants.

41:34 So we don't need to get everybody to care. We just need to get one in four, and I think that's totally doable. I mean, the polling in the UK, for example, is 80% of people are concerned about climate change. We did some polling- Yeah … a few years back about, concern for the ocean or who wanted to take action for the ocean. Again, it was in the upper 80%. So I'm like, okay, you care- Yeah … about the ocean, you care about climate, what are you doing to care for it? And I, really think that, I recognize my privilege of living in a country where I can hold my government to account. I can go and speak to my politician and tell them they're not doing a good enough job, and I have no danger to me to do that. So, I do- Right … accept that that's- Of course not the same for everyone. But if you are in that situation, I mean, look what's just happened in, the US. That's change. Yeah. That's because people mobilized Yeah, absolutely.

42:15 I agree with you there. I think you're right. and speaking of change, you talk about, Motion in the Ocean. you've talked about that. and, you and your co-founders for Motion in the Ocean, you're thinking of taking it worldwide. so I'm gonna ask you to be a little selfish. I live in the Great Lakes area in Canada. What would that look like, on Canadian land, Canadian waters around the Great Lakes city, to adopt one of those types of, like, Motion in the Ocean? and how should a listener start a conversation with their council around that? Yeah. So the Motion for the Ocean is a blueprint of what's possible within that, policy context. So we've developed ones for England, for Wales, for Scotland, because in the UK policy is devolved, which is messy, but basically means it's slightly different in all our nations.

43:00 And so- Right … if a listener, hears this and says, "I really wanna see an ocean recovery declaration in my area," I would suggest getting in touch with me and we can work together to shape that, framework to be something that would suit your policy context, because I am not an expert in what that looks like in Canada or in- Of course the US or in Brazil or wherever it might be. Yeah. But that's where we can work together and we can find the right people to shape it. I don't even need to be involved. You take it. Like it's online, it's free. You turn it into what you- Yeah … want it to be. All we say is just make sure it's- Yeah super ambitious, but we are here to help if you want us. And what is beautiful, I think, about the Motion for the Ocean is that some places have just taken it word for word, passed it, and they're implementing it. And that's fine, but some places have really put in the effort, some councils have really put in the effort before that point.

43:45 They've scrutinized it and they've gone, "Actually, we want this one to be more ambitious, and this one we might only be able to deliver next year, but that's okay." And for me, that is the level of buy-in, amazing. We just have a very strict red line that it can't lose ambition, but that we want it to be locally relevant, to be of value, to add value in a different place. And so, yeah, no matter where you're listening from, if you wanna do it, you have my full permission and, full support to turn it into what you need it to be. I would love to see it being utilized in the way that it has been here in the UK. Yeah. It'd be, definitely be a very interesting, process and to see what happens and what could happen in the future with a lot of these, local governments. We see a lot of change at local governments, 'cause it's, you have direct access to a lot of the people.

44:29 They're in your community. they see the same thing and they live in your community and it's also, very helpful. Now, one thing you did, which I find really interesting is, you worked with a publisher on a paperback only, like low carbon edition, and then like part of a mangrove project, like a restoration project, which is kind of cool. you're already showing what can be done just by putting into practice. Like you wrote a book, but you're making it as, clean and energy efficient as, possible, which I love. Yeah. With that said, as people read the book, what would you like them to do the week after they, finish the book? So what I would suggest is put in a reminder in your calendar for a week after you've written the book.

45:10 And so part of the exercise of the book is there's some questions that you have to answer, or I encourage you to answer. Obviously, I'm not gonna check your homework, but if you- … to hopefully guide you into what is your ocean action, because it will differ for, what is best for me to do is different to what you could do and different to what, the listener can do. And so- Yeah … I think what happens is we often we do these things in a flurry, hopefully of inspiration, and you go, "Yeah, I'm gonna do these things." And then life happens and, you've gotta deal with the children. Yeah. You take the dog for a walk, whatever your life looks like. So I would set, you know, a reminder a week, a month, whatever you feel is appropriate, and hold yourself to account to actually do the things that you felt in that moment were the things that you can do. And, I try and set myself regular reminders for, remember you said you were gonna do this.

45:54 Some people write a letter to themselves, so you can write, take that notebook page, write it out, post it to yourself, or put it, ask somebody to post it to you in a month or two months. But I often find that's the way to make habits stick, is holding myself accountable. Mm-hmm. Because some of the things that hopefully you will decide to do will be fairly easy changes, things that you could perhaps make immediately, whereas some things might be, yeah, oh, I said I would do that, but I've slipped and life's happened and life's changed. But just also to be really kind to yourself in that process and recognize that what you- Yeah … commit to doing today might not be possible for you in a month's time because life, And so- Yeah … you know, do what you can. Every little helps, and I genuinely mean that, that every little helps.

46:35 And then in two or three months' time or next year, you might have more capacity again. So it's not on your shoulders individually. Just do what you can and try and enjoy it. Yeah. Because honestly, ocean change-making, although it really is not all rainbows and dolphins, I wish it was, but it is hard work. But actually the people and the experiences, I've got to have in this process, and I don't just mean the lovely, inspiring getting to see whales. I mean the sitting in a council chamber and hearing people fighting for the ocean in places that you would never have expected. Yes. I mean, that is just- Yeah … yeah, joy, honor. Yeah, it's just incredible. I love it. I love it. Emily, this has been, so great. Last question for you. Where can people find the book to grab it?

47:17 where can they find "Motion for the Ocean" and where can they find more information about you? Sure. So, this is my UK book. This is what this one looks like. This is the US- Check it out. Check it all out … um, Canada book. Just so you know, they are the exact same book, just with two different covers. You can find them anywhere that you buy your books. Very nice. Please try and go with your independent bookshop if you can, or order them to your local library so more people can enjoy them. I don't mind if I don't get paper copy. That's not why I've done it. and if you wanna find out more about the Motion for the Ocean, just Google Motion for the Ocean. We are normally your top hit. otherwise, you can find me. I'm on Instagram as marinebiologylife, or I have a website, which is emilycunningham.co.uk. There's a contact form there.

47:58 Feel free to message me. I will get back to you ASAP. Bear with me. It's a wonderfully whirlwind-y time with the book, but I will get back to people if they do get in touch. I love it. Thank you so much, Emily. It was so great to have you back on. Good luck with, the book tour and all the stuff you're doing to sell the book. We really appreciate what you've done, the time you've spent, putting, the effort into the book and making sure that people can get their hands on it. We really appreciate it. We're gonna put all the links in the show notes so that people can get ahold of it. Uh, again, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a real pleasure. Can't wait to have you back on thank you. Thank you, Emily, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. It was great to have you back on and to discuss your book.

48:39 It is so wonderful when my colleagues and friends come out with a book, because I know where they're coming from. I've seen Emily's career blossom over the last 15 years. What she's been able to do is not what I would call like a traditional marine biology career, what somebody would think, or I don't even know what a traditional marine biology career is anymore. But she's done a lot of great things. She's accomplished a lot in her young 15 years, and I can't wait to see what she accomplishes, not only with this book, but in the future. and I think it's a great journey to watch, and I hope all of you watch that as well. And speaking of which, if you wanna get in touch with her, one, buy the book, or if you wanna know more about Motion for the Ocean, and you wanna get in touch with her, all the links are in the show notes. And so you can get ahold of her and you can have conversations with her about bringing Motion for the Ocean to you, to your own city, your own local community.

49:26 I wanna thank Emily for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I wanna thank you for listening to this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. Have a great day. I am preparing for IMCC 8. I'm about to leave probably within a day or so as you're listening to this, if you're listening to this on, the Tuesday, November 10th, and I can't wait, to, get there, and you're gonna hear all the wonderful things that are coming. We've got some more interviews coming this week, so enjoy those. And thank you so much for joining us on today's episode. Have a great day. We'll talk to you tomorrow, and happy conservation