Small Grants, Big Impact: How Sea-Changers Funds Community Ocean Action

0:00 Have you ever felt that you live in a community where you're like, "Hey, you know what? I would really love to start a project, like a little project, that could really benefit my community from an environmental perspective." That could be like a beach cleanup, that could be, creating like drinking fountains or something around, the community or maybe sprucing up a specific area. it could be a, number of different things. And, sometimes you're looking for that type of funding. It might not be huge funding, but it's like a little micro grant that can help you instill it and bring the community together around something environmental that they could be proud of once the project is done. Funding like that doesn't happen all the time, but I found a place in the UK called SeaChangers, And I've interviewed today the co -founders, Helen Webb and Rachael Lopata, who are not, marine scientists.

0:45 They're not, traditionally educated in marine conservation, but they are divers who fell in love with the water and the ocean. And they realized that there are a lot of problems with the ocean, and they wanted to empower communities to, be able to do their own type of conservation. And they started SeaChangers. And SeaChangers is what this episode is all about today. We're gonna talk about on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. I'm a marine biologist and science communicator who is about to go to the International Marine Conservation Congress in Edinburgh, Scotland. this is posted on the Monday. I am leaving in a couple of days as of this posting. but I love to speak to people who I'm about to meet at the IMCC, and these, two wonderful women are doing a plenary talk, a panel, about small grants and big impact.

1:36 And it's all about exploring small grants, how the small grants, support locally led initiatives and create pathways for projects to grow and complement larger, conservation investments. And we talk in this episode, in this interview, Helen and Rachael give examples of a specific project, Seagrass, that has, been able to benefit from, the small grant when they first started and now, they're international, they're huge. And they, talk about the beauty of being able to see projects do that and also take chances on projects that may or may not succeed, but they're able to get that out and try and do something that's good for their community. So we're gonna talk about that on today's episode. This is the interview with Helen Webb and Rachael Lopata from SeaChangers.

2:20 Enjoy the interview, and I'll talk to you after. Hey, Helen. Hey, Rachel. Welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about Sea Changers and funding in marine science and conservation? Absolutely. Looking forward to it. Yes. All right. I have to admit, I'm very excited about this. It's a week before I travel to Edinburgh, Scotland for the IMCC8, so International Marine Conservation Congress 8. And, both of you are going to be a plenary speaker on a panel talking about funding within the marine science and conservation. I feel like this will be a very well-attended, panel- … because a lot of people- Yeah … are concerned and obviously interested in funding.

3:00 It is what drives a lot of marine science and conservation, and the both of you are involved in an organization that we're gonna be just focusing on today, Sea Changers, and we're gonna talk all about that. I'm super excited to do that and where funding is and where it's going, especially from on like the community level, smaller scale type funding that's very, very important. So before we get into all of that, Helen, why don't we start with you. can you just let us know who you are and what you do? So I am Helen. I started working with Sea Changers about 15 years ago. but alongside that, I suppose my career, I'm not a trained marine biologist or marine scientist or conservationist. my career has always been in equality, diversity, and inclusion, and I've worked in many different organizations over the last 30-plus, 40 years, kind of working on those areas.

3:48 But actually, 15 years ago, worked with Rachel to set up Sea Changers, and we'll tell you a bit more about why we did that in a moment, but yeah, that's kind of- Yeah … who I am and, what I do. That's fantastic. And Rachel, how about yourself? well, the Sea Changers side of it is exactly the same 'cause we founded the organization together. my career, prior to that and alongside it, because we both have, always volunteered for Sea Changers, has been in, kind of public consultation and engagement work. so mainly for, government organizations or regulators in the UK. So it does relate a little bit 'cause it's all been about- Involving people and communities in decisions which affect their lives, and how we consult and engage people, and do research and focus groups- Mm-hmm and that kind of thing.

4:34 that's always been my professional role. so I think actually our careers, have never been anything to do directly with the marine environment, but actually they've influenced a bit what we ended up doing, Yeah … with Sea Changes. That's really interesting. So, Helen, just back to you. I guess this is a question for both of you, and you can start whoever wants to start. But where did that love for the ocean, for the sea come in? you're in the UK, you guys are on a massive island. Just before we, recorded you were talking about how, close it is, you know, 60, 70 miles away- Yeah from the coast. That's the closest coast, but you can get to pretty much every coast that you want where you live. What made you always interested in the sea and in the ocean?

5:15 I think for both of us, our family holidays as kids were always, by the sea. And, quite often mine were in, very wet Wales beaches or up in Scotland getting rained on, but just, I, completely fell in love with the UK coast. We have some amazing coastline in the UK. I'm really blessed to have that. So it's hard not to love the coast if you're lucky enough to get to it, within the UK. About 25 years ago, we started to learn to dive. and we had that experience where, you go under the, water for the first time as a diver, and you're kind of seeing a whole different world, and we completely fell in love with that other world. And for 10 years we were lucky enough to sort of travel around not just the UK, but parts of Europe and other amazing parts of the world, diving, and just had this gorgeous experience of being underwater and seeing what was there.

6:01 But I think we also very quickly began to understand that not everything was well under the water. I suppose you see, pollution and in some areas where we dived often we'd see less fish over time. we started to see a lot more plastic. we started to see reef degradation. And I think there's that thing about thinking we love this environment, we want to be diving till we're 90 plus if we possibly can, which would be the dream. please let us do that. but actually we both had that concern that- We may not have that opportunity that actually what we were seeing then, 15, 20 years ago wasn't, going to be, sustained going forward. Mm-hmm. And, and I guess it was that feeling of, okay, well, what do we do as, people who aren't conservationists, aren't scientists, but are divers who love that environment and want to do something?

6:49 And so, we led to wanting to create Sea Change. So Rachel, I'll let you say, we did, 'cause I, guess it was this bonkers why did we do that kind of idea, but it was, 15 years later- Yeah we're still here, so. Yeah. Yeah, we are. Yeah. I, think, the other thing to say is that on top of that, once we started seeing things, we started reading things. Mm-hmm. And then we started learning. then we started to read the people- Yeah … who are scientists, who the are ex- And I think, and it was before A lot of people had awareness, I think. that's changed, especially in recent years, but it was a conversation that wasn't being had generally, but we started to read books, and we started to get scared, and we're like, it sort of overwhelmed us in some ways. and then I think we felt like, what can we do?

7:30 We both had a kind of background in business and communities as we've kind of explained, and we thought there must be loads of people like us. Mm-hmm. There must be people who love the sea and who want to do something, who care about the marine environment in the UK, who care about their local coastline, who want to get involved. how do they do that? and we had this idea also that there would be a lot of businesses, especially we thought marine-dependent businesses that might- Mm-hmm … wanna help people do that. And we thought, why can't we put those two things together? although, you're never really more than 70 miles from the sea in the UK, we're not that close to it that it's really easy for us to pop down and do a bit of, clean up work or to get involved in a local, project, by the sea.

8:16 But we could do something, remotely online to set- Yeah … this whole thing up, and that's what Sea Changes is. And essentially what we do is we work with funders, bigger funders, corporate funders, or trust foundations to bring money in, and then we run grant programs to give small grants to community-based marine conservation projects all over the UK. And, it started really small. It's still pretty small, but the impact of it has been amazing, in, all sorts of places. Lots of amazing things have happened through pretty small amounts of money being given to local people to do some work. that's incredible. I have some questions.

8:56 first of all, like I don't think People who live outside the UK, like myself, fully understand how beautiful the marine life around the UK is. I didn't fully, appreciate or have an understanding of what type of life was there. I had an idea just in terms of the latitude and everything where you guys are, until I saw Ocean, the Sir David Attenborough movie where you, obviously there was that very emotional part of the movie where they show the beauty of like all these anemones and- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm … and all this productivity. And then of course the trawl comes through and then everybody's in tears and so forth. I was watched it with my daughter who's also into wildlife. She's actually, uh, in university in wildlife. Mm-hmm. And she said, "I had no idea that the UK had that type of life." So I'll ask both of you, like, what has been one of your favorite things to see, when you dive around the UK?

9:45 Well, actually I can pull on a very recent, moment where we, were up in Scotland, very near Edinburgh on the, East Coast. of Scotland and we, Rach and I went diving with one of our trustees, Lee, and just did an absolute amazing dive where we just walked in from the water's edge and very quickly were down in a sort of, crevice where there was kelp, there were huge crabs, lots of different types of crabs. There were lobsters, again, all over the place. I mean, you kinda think you might see one or two if you're lucky. On a dive, maybe in the Caribbean, if I see a couple of lobsters I'm always excited. Right. Um, there I think I probably came up and thought I'd seen 20, 30 lobsters, all different sizes.

10:26 and, an abundance of really nice, some very small, but beautiful, little corals. Um, and lots of fish life. And I think, again, you sort of think sometimes we're diving, or sometimes with that kind of beauty you think you're gonna have to go a long way to see it, and that was literally, walking out. it was near Eyemouth, a place called Eyemouth. but really, how lucky are we to be able to go and do that- Yeah. Oh, absolutely … um, on our own coast. it was a real treasure. Uh- Absolutely … a real treat. and Rachel, how about yourself? Like, is there a dive that you really remember where you were just like, "Oh my gosh"? Well, I suppose the thing I was… When you said, what is your favorite thing to see, I think it doesn't matter where I am in the world, the UK or anywhere else, that I absolutely love to see an octopus.

11:06 Oh, yeah. I'm obsessed with octopuses- Love that. … and I, I absolutely love them, and as far as I'm concerned, if you see an octopus that's the end of moving on a dive. You just stop and you just watch it. Um, that- Hundred percent. Yeah. Hundred percent. So that applies in the UK, and actually there's been a huge octopus bloom- in the UK this year on the South Coast, but it applies anywhere in the world. Yeah. Uh, they're just amazing creatures, and I love them. Even just to find them, like the fact that- Yeah … you found one, because they're so good at hiding, right? Yeah. And you see that little change in color or movement. Yeah. You're like, "Oh, wait a minute. I think I see something." I agree, I love invertebrates. Mm-hmm. And so when I dive, a lot of times I go down to the Caribbean to dive, I will sit there, and I remember my wife always asks, like, "Why are you, like, you sit in one spot?" And I'm like, "'Cause I always find there's, like, a scale of sight when you're diving." You see, like, the schools of fish.

12:00 Maybe if you're lucky, you see a turtle or a shark or, some larger, like the larger fauna, which is great to see. And then you start to see the smaller fish in and around the corals, and then you get to, like, look down. I'm a, nematode fan, and I'm like, "I wanna see the interactions. I wanna see, like-" Yeah … a little bit of, like, competition or a cleaning station and a seagrass bed- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah or, or that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm. I like to just sit there, and it's almost like it's like the, I go through the scale of a reef or a scale of wherever you're diving, and it's just the most fun thing to- Yeah … to see and, and, uh- It really is, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And that's how you kind of know, understand behavior is just by being still, is sometimes you, you- Yeah you get to see all that fun interaction from the stuff. You don't- Mm-hmm … if you just swim by, you'll miss it. Yeah. But yes, we're so lucky to be able to do that.

12:42 my scuba instructor that I did in, like, Ontario, he said the best thing that you could do is learn how to just stay still, with your breathing, and control that- Yeah with your breathing 'cause then you'll notice so much more. And it's, and it's- Mm-hmm … it's true. It's like- Yeah … you just notice, you notice everything. Now, the other thing that really fascinated about your story is that, no marine science or marine conservation background from an education standpoint. diving, which I love because you're in it, you start to see some of the things that you probably don't like to see. Obviously, we see the beauty, but also we see the degradation firsthand, and that is taxing on the emotions as you come up. Mm-hmm. You know, as much as you can say- Mm-hmm … "Hey, it was great to see the octopus," but did you also notice, like, there's not as much coral last time, or there's not as much, like, something- Yeah look like it went through.

13:26 it's quite an emotional toll, as Rachel, you mentioned, you start to do some reading, and you start to like, we're getting scared here about what's happening. and that is a real thing. We get the- Mm … anxiety, whether climate anxiety, ocean anxiety. and there's a path that people take. They could just shut off and just ignore it and continue on, which many people do. Or as the both of you did, is to say, "No, we're gonna do something." But then there's that feeling, and I'd love for you to take me through that feeling and how that moved you to do something. It was like, "Where do we begin? How do we begin?" You know what I mean? Like, where can we fit? Like, I think a lot of people was like, "Well, we're not scientists, so how do we do this?" And not that, that you have to be a scientist.

14:06 I always tell people- Mm … we have enough scientists. We need people like yourselves to take that on and be like, "No, we have our own way, and we've seen how people can work, and we can do it through, like, the business aspect," which I believe is, like, a huge aspect. Yeah. But what in both of you made that decision? 'Cause I feel like there's a lot of people in this audience who are on that cusp, and they just don't know where to do or where to go- Yeah … and they can do that, For both of us, I think we're both very hopeful people and are optimistic and also recognize that there's huge power in individual action and that we all can make a difference. I think we've always felt that's kind of core to our values of who we are as people. and for many people, we're not unique in that. but we really see the power of individuals, but also the power of individuals working within community to make a change.

14:50 So I think that's really helped us to kind of think, "Oh, we- actually, can do something." I think, to be honest, we for a while thought, " let's just volunteer for other organizations or, support what's already going on." we have no ego about anything. I don't think we're thinking, we're certainly nothing special. I think we thought we could contribute somewhere. And then I think we both just thought, "Actually, do you know what? I think we have a good idea. let's give it a go with a bit of blind optimism and a lot of faith." but very quickly, I think we surrounded ourselves by people who did know. So we took a lot of advice. We just sought out people who knew about how to set up a charity or a trust. we spoke to people in marine world about, whether it was a good idea, and some people would go, "I can't believe you're even thinking of it." And lots of people would say, "No, it's a good- no, there's something to it." And a few people were really encouraging.

15:35 And I think, no, I suppose Sea Change isn't just me and Rachel now. Sea Change is- Right … a good, 20, 30 people who all volunteers. we have recently appointed one member of staff, which is fantastic. But we've surrounded ourselves by lots of people who are really, really clever and know what they're doing in their own areas. And I think in a way, we've never been afraid to say, "We don't know what we're doing. Can you help?" And reach out. But also I think the world can be quite bleak at times, and I think the way we found hope is to think actually let's do something. let's feel that we are taking action. Yeah. And I was just, as we've been talking, we get huge numbers of grant applications, and we don't fund them all. But every single one, makes me feel hopeful because I think these are people who want to do something amazing in their local area, and I think that is quite, how inspiring is that?

16:21 And how lucky are we to see those applications and to have within our sphere all these amazing people who wanna do something. So actually every day, I think, we've been given this little injection of hope by what we do. so for us it's been quite an easy motivating journey. we just found our kind of place really within it. I love the approach, cause I think a lot of people are like, "Okay, I'm, we're gonna do something about this, so we're gonna start a project, we're gonna do something." And, and you could have, and just as easily and it would, I think it would've just been as fine to like say, "Okay, this is my favorite dive site, so I'm going to spend all my time- Yeah … on this dive site and protect that." Which I, like again, a local thing. You could do that and spend some time either cleaning it or talking to people and doing all this kind of stuff, and I think it would've been just as well.

17:07 But both of you decided to be like, "We are going to enable a lot of other projects to happen. So that scalability just went from one to how many projects have you funded so far? 50? 6- 600 plus, is it Rachel? Yeah. Oh, 600 plus. Phenomenal. that's amazing, it's like you've enabled that to happen. You've empowered people to do that, given them the possibility and funding through these small grants and correct me if I'm wrong, it's about 500 to about 2,500 pounds. Is that, that's what they range in? Yeah. Give or take? Yeah. and you're able to have all these community projects going on. That must be a pretty good feeling at the end of the day for everybody who's involved, to just be like, "Hey, like we've scaled this pretty well." And also scaled that feeling of hope that things can be done If they wanna be sea changers, essentially.

17:57 Yeah. Yeah. that's gotta be a good feeling. This is a question for you. Like Rachel, like when you receive these applications, maybe even the first few, did you ever have the ability of like, "Oh, I never would've thought of that," or, "Oh, that's really cool," or, "I never even knew that was a problem?" Like, did you ever have that feeling where you're like, "Oh, that's really, that's really creative"? Absolutely, we do, and we have it all the time. Over the years we've changed. So we started off with like just a single grant fund. Okay. And it was, anyone can come to us and ask us for some money to do something. and over the years we've had all sorts of things come to us and it's interesting to talk about scaling as well. I'll come back to that point. But right now we have, several different funds.

18:39 We have our main grant fund, which is, for projects up to 2,500 pounds, as you said. We have a small grant fund that's open all the time, just for a little bit of money. someone wants up to 500 quid to get some equipment or to, do something on a small scale. But we also have an innovation fund And that runs once a year, and that actually is for larger amounts. Mm-hmm. It's still not gonna fund huge technical innovation-type projects- Of course … but it's for kind of, maybe slightly bigger ideas, but definitely something new. And that's where we have had lots of different projects where we go, "Oh, I never knew that was an issue." "Oh, I'd never have thought of that," or, What a great idea."

19:20 And it's funded some really, really interesting things. the one that comes to mind really easily, just to give you an example, is that, like in last year's innovation fund, we had an application for, training conservation dogs to sniff out invasive sea squirts. I love that. So, never would've occurred to me that dogs could do this- I know, right? that that was a good idea. and we gave, a grant of 1,800 pounds. They proved the concept. They showed they could train dogs to sniff out very specific species of sea squirt on the shore. That's so cool. Uh, and now it-- that project is now scaling. And just coming back to scaling, we- whilst we sometimes help ourselves to scale good ideas in a number of different ways, often a project needs that start.

20:11 Yeah. and you mentioned, before we started recording about Project Seagrass. Well, actually, we are the first people to give Project Seagrass any money in the UK, and obviously they're way bigger than us now. Yeah, it's true. Like, they're, they're international and huge. Yeah. Yeah. And amazing. Uh, and amazing. It's, uh, it's, they're phenomenal. And doing-- And having incredible impact. But sometimes you get something… and actually you say, "I never knew that was a good i-- you know, never knew- Mm-hmm … that was an idea, and ye- never knew that was a thing." It might seem an odd thing to say, probably lots of your listeners won't realize this, but back in time, the 2013, that's what people were saying about seagrass planting. It's true. And, it needed a small grant, initial grant.

20:51 Some of those things need initial grants to prove the concept, to pilot an idea. And then we're not the people for scaling. We haven't got big enough money But they can go on having shown it- Yeah … to work to people who are the people who can scale it. I think- So that's great … I think the other, the other thing is linked to that, is sometimes it needs someone just to say, "Do you know what? this sounds like a great idea. Go away and do it." And it's like a little bit of confidence to say to someone- Yeah … "We believe in you. have a go." And I think we quite often have had the feedback, particularly from projects that have scaled, but even from projects that have just stayed and been solid- and continued, where people have said We just wanted someone to believe in what we were doing, and it really helped." And so I think we recognize, we feel that.

21:33 we're a small, charity. we all like getting those pats on the back. And so I think that our grants also do that. They have that, ability to just say to someone, "We really believe in what you're doing. Have a go." And not every project we fund will succeed. We accept- For sure that sometimes you have to fund with faith, that- things will work out. And actually, I think we shouldn't be afraid sometimes to take a chance or to recognize that sometimes things, not everything will work out. Well, we all learn from, things that don't. but I think, we have grants panels, we have assessors who review the application forms and make informed decisions. and that's on a basis of, we do believe in everything we fund, and we want everything we fund to be a success. So it's great when they are.

22:13 but we recognize it won't always be the case. Well, I- And that's okay, too … I completely agree. I mean, as a scientist there's value, and I was always taught this as a scientist, there's value in having a project not turn out the way you expected. Yeah. Mm. Right? 'Cause then what happens is if you publish on that, although it's, like, technically a failure, somebody can take that, read that paper and say, "Oh, well, what if you did this? let me get in touch with this person and say, 'Have you tried this?'" And then- Yeah … that project could build into a success later on just by sharing what somebody has been through and had not succeeded in the way that you expected, but it could succeed eventually down the road. I agree with you that having that confidence instilled by getting it funded, and just trying it to see if it works, 'cause you never know what might build off of that.

23:01 There might be another idea. It's like, "Oh, we tried this. We needed to try this so that we can get to the next step and move on." Mm. Yeah. To say, "Hey, yeah, this didn't work, but thank you for believing in us, because now we're able to do it in a much- Yeah … better manner," I agree with that. I think that's so great. And, I mean, I think it must be interesting 'cause your projects are funded for UK communities, correct? Like, it's, put in the UK. But every UK community is different. It's like around the coastlines are different. everybody's different. do you find that there are a lot of projects that are very unique compared to others? Or do you find that even though there might be similar challenges, the approach is different just because of that uniqueness of, those communities? you're absolutely spot on, Our coastline is, that's what-- why it's so gorgeous, our coastline, because everywhere you go, it will be really, diverse.

23:47 I think we've been quite good over the years at kind of recognizing when, there is commonality between projects. So often we'll get an application from somebody maybe in Norfolk on the east coast of England, and we'll think, "Actually, we've seen something similar down in Cornwall," and there's, maybe some learning or maybe something that could happen that would prevent duplication. So we're quite good at joining those dots to make sure that people don't reinvent the wheel or, do things as effectively as they can in that way. but I think we do have to recognize that there is different challenges for different parts of the UK. And, Rachel would probably want to feed into this, but we see really strong areas of the UK where there's really strong, activity around conservation taking place, where it's really joined up, people are really aware of what each other are doing.

24:30 So say, for example, the southwest of England, and much more so maybe up in, some areas of Scotland. But then there are other areas of the UK geographically where it just isn't possible. There aren't lots of coastal communities very close together, or bits of the coast aren't quite so accessible. and so the work is much more disparate, and they're facing different challenges. Maybe they're, have a different, totally different geography and so on. . Again, that's why we have a panel of assessors who are much more expert than we are and really understand the conservation issues that people are, dealing with and try and respond to that accordingly. so every application that's made is judged on the location and the appropriateness of that solution for that location, and really trying to recognize that, and see whether that's the appropriate fit for where it is.

25:15 every where area I think, is different in some respects, although there will be some commonality, there. I don't know if you want to add anything to that, Rachel. no, I don't. I mean, it's obviously there are geographical differences, but there are also demographic differences. there are places that are very deprived and where the concerns maybe aren't as much about the ocean. They're about, can we survive? Can we feed the children? Can we keep the heating on? Those kinds of things. And so we're very conscious that, maybe conservation can be a bit of an affluent, privileged pastime in some cases, you know- Sure, sure … a bit volunteering and- Yeah … you have to be able to afford to volunteer. so we are really conscious of that, in trying to reach communities and make sure people do know that there is funding there.

25:58 So we definitely see differences in the level of applications, and it's something we're trying to do more of, to reach out to communities where we don't get so many. Yeah. I think the only thing I would add is, again, up in Scotland, we've been looking, through two different funders, actually, William Grant Foundation, but also, SMEEF which is the Scottish Marine, Environmental Enhancement Fund. Have I got that right, Rachel? Yes. Good. You have. Okay. Gonna get that right … and they've given us funding to set up a Scottish learning fund, and- Awesome … that was a really interesting fund because we were constantly seeing groups, maybe applying and maybe want … And we were thinking, actually, there is other people doing similar things, or maybe there's other projects which could nurture or help or mentor, and other learning to be had.

26:38 And in Scotland, it's not that easy just to, there's, particularly up in the Highlands and Islands, it's not that easy just to pop over to the mainland or, to arrange easy meetups. And so that fund is available for, projects in Scotland to basically say, "Look, we're based on the Isle of Bute. We wanna go down to Mull, one of the other, Hebridean Islands, and we want to go and talk to a project down there about what they're doing and learn." And it's a kind of a project that kind of enables that learning and the exploration, to take place. And I think that's really important that, we've always taken the view that, groups are better if they work together and understand- Yeah what each other's doing, and, they don't keep their learning to themselves. Yeah. and that fund really, on a small scale, enables that to happen across Scotland.

27:20 We'd love to see that across the rest of the UK. we haven't set that boundary. it's simply a funding boundary that we're facing. but I love that idea of groups kind of nurturing, encouraging, developing each other because actually, we've got a nation of coastal experts who know what works and what doesn't, and there's some good shared learning to be had in that. So if we can play a small part in facilitating that, I'd really love to see that happen on a bigger scale. Well, and I think, too, there's the learning of the actual material, which a lot of these coastal nations probably already have. Like, they know what's there. They know what's not there. They know what's changed over the years just from that, that traditional sort of knowledge, as we call traditional ecological knowledge. Mm-hmm. but I think also the, it's the implementation Of trying to do something about it, to either prevent the change or bring back something that used to be is always difficult, Mm-hmm.

28:07 Where sometimes just the mechanics and the logistics of doing that, sharing that with another community that may be just starting that change, and another community may have had that, experience already. They can share what worked for them, what didn't work for them, so that they're not starting from scratch. They're standing on their shoulders, and they can learn from that, and hopefully bring the communities together as coastal nations. Because I know, like, every coastal area is complex. there's bays and there's nooks and crannies, and it can be isolating By boat, it may take five minutes to get to another bay, but by road, it might take a half hour or two hours. You never know, right? You just, you just- Yeah, yeah, yeah … don't know how it's all laid out. But I think it's- Yeah … I think it's really interesting. And I also think, I love the fact, and I mentioned this earlier, of how, letting communities dictate what needs to be done.

28:50 I think that's really important. it's that bottom-up kind of feel- Yeah … I think that Sea Changers uses as language, grassroots, bottom-up. why is it important for letting communities pick their own priorities, and why do you think it leads to better conservation? I mean, I think the large-scale, restoration programs that are more top-down are obviously really, really important as well. Of course. You know, these are government environment agency or whoever, leading these programs and some of the big NGOs in the UK are doing that. But I think whilst they may well, and I know many of them do try to engage communities, that is still feels very often kinda top-down.

29:31 It's like we've decided, we're the power that be, we're the experts. We've decided that this needs to happen along this coastline, and we're going to do it, and, oh, we'll engage the community. There's something really, really special about, saying to communities, "We don't have an agenda for marine conservation. You know your place, and you are seeing what's happening on the ground, and you should be able to come with your ideas for conservation, for protection, for education, for citizen science." And, if that's not a kind of whatever you come up with is fine, because obviously there's an, assessment of applications that happens from people who know what they're talking about. If someone says, "We want to create a coral reef off the Aberdeen coast."

30:16 That'd be interesting. You know, there might be a sci- yeah, there might be a scientist that says, that might not be very easy, Right. and obviously that's the point at which an application is assessed. Well, that's not feasible, or that's not right, or that wouldn't work, or actually that might do damage. Mm-hmm. But the idea that communities themselves can identify what the issues are. and very often they're not about science, or they're not even about in the sea. They can be about engaging other people in the community, and again, I think that comes best from communities. So, you know, we do fund quite a lot of projects that are about, getting kids involved in rock pooling and litter picking and understanding what's happening in the ocean and those kinds of things too.

30:57 to me, they feel like they should be ideas from the community. Yeah. What works best, the people who know that area, that community and that landscape and seascape better than anybody else. I was gonna say, I think there are lots of parts of the UK, and I'm sure this is elsewhere in, the world. It's not, unique, where there is really good collaboration between the big NGOs and between, smaller organizations and where they're really working together to come up with a plan. I'm thinking an area that we know quite well just from visiting as a, tourist, it's an area down on the south coast of the England, Sussex Bay, where they have a really great partnership with local authorities, with local conservation groups, and with communities, groups of all shapes and sizes. and I think that's a really, great example.

31:39 I've just picked one example 'cause there are lots of others around the UK, of actually everybody working together. But within the Sussex Bay, project, coastal project, of course, projects can say, "Okay, I need to Sea Changes grants, do my bit Okay of that work." And so that small group or maybe slightly larger group, we're not exclusive. whatever size you can apply to Sea Changes- for funding, can apply to Sea Changes and kind of fit their piece in the jigsaw of that wider piece of work. so I think we're certainly advocating, where you can fit into a wider network of work and be complementary to what's going on and really enhance, those big programs 'cause they are super important. As Rachel says. Mm-hmm. But actually for me, I've always taken the view that if something comes from the community, you have greater ownership ' cause you feel a pride and, we've developed this, and we wanna carry it through.

32:25 And I think that for us, that's what we see with the projects that we fund. Often they have a really strong sense of ownership because they've come up with the idea, they've done the really hard work, and they've- Yeah … they can see the results that are happening, in whatever, whether that's research or whether that's direct action, or whether that's in protecting a particular species or whatever it might be. They can see the outcomes that they want. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, think it's great. it gets it from the, like, different parts of the community. I really like the example of, like, you could be part of a bigger project, but then there's a community that wants to take part, and they just need a little bit of funding just to help them- Yeah you know, dedicate that time or maybe buy some equipment or whatever that might be to do that. And I think it's great because it allows everybody to take part.

33:06 I'm a strong believer that everybody should be included, all communities- Mm-hmm … everybody part of that community. I think it's interesting, Helen, at the beginning of the, interview, you mentioned that you've been involved in working in, EDI, DEI- Yeah … as it says here in North America, the diversity, equity, and inclusion. I found it really interesting you said you've been part of this for, like, 30 years. And I, I think because, I feel like it's been popularized over the last maybe 10 to 15, maybe over the last five, it seems to have been vilified by certain people- Mm-hmm … and to kind of speak against it even though it feels like it's just talking points and nothing really that important.

33:46 I mean, it's, important at every aspect of life, for DEI, but especially within conservation because, we're talking UK- Yeah … but, like, you look at worldwide and everybody has a coastline, or most countries, but, like, people have to do marine conservation, but it's gonna affect different cultures, different backgrounds, different religions. But even within the UK, there's a huge diversity of people from immigration to different parts of the country within the UK, there are different areas. there's Ireland, there's Scotland, there's Wales, there's England, and then within that, there are people who have immigrated and contributed to a lot of stuff that's going on in the UK, a lot of great things. having this background, how do you see it being this type of inclusion and DEI overall being included in how the grants are, put out to the communities or awarded to the different communities.

34:37 and are there people who get missed by some, not to say your grants, but other grants or just in terms of conservation in general in the UK? I know I just asked a lot of questions in there- … so I'll let you kinda to take it, but this is just sort of the ideas that have been kind of flowing my head as we've been doing this interview. I think it's really, such a key vital point, Yeah particularly cl- it sits really close to our hearts. I think with regards to our grants programs, we're really focused on making sure that our grants, Whatever the project is, that we try and make sure they're inclusive, whether it's in terms of an inclusive application process that makes people feel not too daunted by having the application form- Mm if it's the first time they may ever have, done that themselves. But also, I think about what our last lot of grants, I think which came around in the spring, and when we did some analysis of where those grants had gone to, they went to groups of people who were living with, disabled people- Mm-hmm people living with long-term chronic health issues.

35:31 There was a group, an LGBTQ group, of young people. There were groups of young people, on low income who'd never been to the sea before. Mm. And that wasn't intentional. We were judging all of the applications primarily- Oh, yeah … on conservation, on those conservation outcomes, that they were looking to bring. But actually people who were applying were from communities who, sometimes find it hard to access the ocean and/or access the coast or access conservation projects. So I think we felt really proud that we're- Yeah … somehow doing something right there. But I think we also have run grant programs in the past where we're trying to merge together very strong conservation outcomes because that's what primarily we're about, and that's our, charitable purpose is marine conservation, enabling that to take place.

36:17 But we combined it with projects which maybe do address other social issues such as mental health or people who maybe are on lower income, or maybe people who are refugees and experiencing isolation because of that and so on. So I think we recognize that sometimes you do need to, be purposeful in how grants programs are designed, to ensure that you're inclusive. And I think the area that we really struggle with is I think conservation generally, I think when I look at who's involved in conservation, I tend to think it's quite, I'm gonna hugely generalize, so please forgive me and I'll, but you know, it can be quite a white, uh- Yeah a white middle class, occupation or pastime for a lot of people. And I still think at the moment the barriers for many people are income.

37:00 We work for Sea Change as volunteers. but we have jobs, so we can afford to do that. Right. but actually for lots of people, they don't have that luxury, and so they want to volunteer, but actually it's really difficult because that can be a barrier in itself. Of course. And there are a lot of internships that are offered, but maybe, don't have a salary attached to them and so on and so on. So I think for a lot of people, that whole issue of income is something that we don't have the resources to address. It's a huge barrier, it kind of plays on our minds quite a lot about, what can we do? are there small levers that we can pull at Sea Change to assist with that? But I think that's a wider systemic problem that- Yeah ultimately needs to be addressed if we're gonna really make, marine conservation more inclusive on a wider scale than Sea Changers can do on their own.

37:47 we're just a small part of the puzzle really, but a good, part, a useful part. Of course. But we're definitely, there's some bigger systemic problems that we're not able to address on our own. Yeah. I like how you worded that because as much as you try to be, and you're getting, groups that are applying that probably would not normally apply, so they feel comfortable enough to apply, which I think it's a great thing. I'd love to, or hope you're able to figure out what that is and so you can encourage more. and I think that's great to be able to get more and more of these groups. But I think it's also important to understand that some of these changes are gonna take a long time- to, to do. As you mentioned, income, like it's tough to volunteer if you are, barely scraping by or- Yeah … you work a job that's 12 hours a day or, you're on shift work, or you have kids to look after or, whatever that might be.

38:32 there's a lot of different scenarios within there. We all know, like people around the world are struggling that wouldn't normally struggle just because of the cost of living and everything. And then that can be a really hard thing to do. Yeah. And I think it's great to recognize that there's only a certain amount of things Sea Changers can do, any organization can do. What you can do is you can encourage people to apply. You can encourage people who are able to apply. And I think it's encouraging to hear that there are different groups that probably would not normally do it as a group to apply, and then they're able to get these types of grants, which I give you a full support. One thing that I've learned, I am a middle-aged white guy. I fully recognize that I have been naive a lot of my life to a lot of what people have been going through.

39:13 but as I, learn, I think the biggest thing is to just kinda show that you're open and acknowledge it and hopefully that, people feel comfortable around you or you help them feel comfortable around you and hopefully that they can do that. And I think your organization has been able to do that, and I think that's a testament to the both of you and the other volunteers that are working for SeaChangers. I think it's wonderful to see s-small steps, Just as- Yeah … just like the community projects are small steps to lead to bigger changes. Yeah. And I think that's, really great to- Great … really great to see. so I give you, a lot of respect for doing that. now, I have a lot of questions. we could probably speak for three hours, and hopefully we can sit down at IMCC and be able to get to know each other- That'd be great each other more. but speaking of IMCC, this is your first International Marine Conservation Congress.

39:56 and so I'm very excited for you to be able to enjoy, the conference. like I said, it's one of my favorite conferences, probably the favorite conference. and you're on this, panel talking about, how small grants can lead to a bigger impact. and this is a panel. I wanna know what both of you hope to get, or the people attending, that they get out of this type of panel. Because I think. these panels are important to have these conversations. So what, were you thinking as you're part of this that you hope people get out of this? I hope people go away recognizing the importance of, that small low-level funding, and what it can achieve.

40:39 and also, I suppose one of my main, hopes is that there's people in the audience who think, who maybe, And this would be my dream, okay? There's some big funders, there's some big funders in the room, and they go, "Do you know what? this could be the bridge we want between our funding and this grassroots local impact." Mm-hmm. That's quite a low-risk way of bridging that gap. Because at the moment what I feel, and this isn't unique to marine conservation, is there are some big funders out there, but the small local grassroots projects could never apply to them. Mm-hmm. they wouldn't have the skills, they wouldn't have the access.

41:20 They're too localized. Mm. The other role that an organization like Sea Changes can play is to bring some of that big scale funding to the local community- Absolutely … level as a small scale grant giver, and I would love to see more of that happening. It's not to say it doesn't happen already. Of course. Helen mentioned William Grant Foundation who fund us in Scotland. they're a, much bigger funder than we are. They fund a lot of work, and they have recognized that exact fact, that the small projects we reach would never be able to apply to them, and they would never find them, and that Sea Changes does that job for them. so for me it would be great if, clearly it's great if there are lots of UK conservation projects in the room and they think, "Oh, we could apply for a grant." That's great.

42:05 I think a lot of those projects hopefully know about us, but maybe there are some that don't. Mm. Yeah. But even better if someone thinks, "Hmm." And it not specific to Sea Changes, it might be somewhere else in the world, that someone thinks- there might be a conduit between the grassroots and the big funders that, brings more of that money, to those grassroots projects. And as I said before, and Helen said, it's not that we think they're the only solution, They're a small part of the overall picture. There's lots of large scale programs that need to happen too, but- Mm-hmm … I think they're an important part. Yeah. we've always thought that Sea Change is quite a replicable, model. and it would be great to think that, one day there's a, it doesn't have to be called Sea Change, I don't care what it's called.

42:47 But a, kind of a Sea Change equivalent in, New Zealand- Right … or one in Greece, or, you know. Yeah. Because actually it is something that's kind of a simple idea, which is, funding coming in and been, and then directed to community groups in a way that's kind of, very effective and high impact. You don't have to be a big unwieldy organization. we're lucky enough to have, a group of really fantastic volunteers, but, we're run from a spare room in our house. we have one member of staff who's only just recently started, which is, thank goodness. We really, we really needed that. But, for me, the message would be you can achieve a lot with a little and, anybody could, do it. And you don't have to be, coming back to earlier in our conversation, you don't have to be an expert to do something impactful.

43:29 you just have to have, a bit of determination and maybe a bit of naivety, and stupidity. but also just a kind of, a desire to really make a difference. and so if it plants a few seeds around that and also helps some people to know where to come for funding, particularly if they're in the UK, and, maybe brings, open a few people's minds to maybe what they can do for Sea Changes, that would be an amazing opportunity. I can't believe we're speaking at a global conference. I have a little bit of an imposter, syndrome about this, which is, who are we? We're gonna be surrounded by, very clever- E- eminent … clever people. Yeah. Scientists. Yeah. but we know what we know, and what we know is That we know how to run small grants programs that do pack a punch. So I hope that we can bring a bit of, insight into how to do that, but also the value of those small grants.

44:10 If we can do that, Andrew, we, we've… Job done. I think you will. I think you'll be able to do that. As someone who's attended IMCC a number of times, you both fit perfectly. You'll both fit in. Oh. Uh, I know the imposter syndrome feels real- … and everything. I feel it every time I'm presenting as well- … so I feel it, too. I think that what I love about the congress is it's not just about science. I know I, sound like I'm speaking for them, but I feel like for the people there, it's not just about talking about the problems. It's about how can we implement. Yeah. And, and SeaChangers is a fantastic way of implementation and giving people that empowerment to do it themselves.

44:53 And I think we need that on a- Mm-hmm … on not only on a UK scale, but on a global scale. Yeah. and I share Helen in your vision, and Rachel, I assume the same vision of, having this duplication of the process. sure, you're not scientists, you're not, traditionally, educated in science or conservation, but you've taken your, expertise and you've been able to put the players together to enable to do conservation. Yeah. And we need that. Mm-hmm. We need that badly. and I think that is going to lead us to better things. And even just, like, having people do conservation in whatever way they're doing it in their communities, when you start to bring out bigger projects or say maybe a little bit more complex issues, they're like, "Well, hold on a second," like, "I think we can do this."

45:35 Because they feel- Yeah … like they've already gotten something. Like they've already gotten something accomplished. For sure. And it's like-… "Oh yeah, we can try this next or we can do that." Yeah. And I think that leads to a lot more changes. And I think it also leads, and both of you ladies can tell me this if you see this in the projects, but it can help bring a community together. Whether it's like you're out there enacting it like physically or you're talking about it, but we need that a lot. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Especially after COVID, especially after this isolation that we've been feeling, we need to be out and talking to people, not just online, but in person. Yeah. And having that, authentic experience of building and looking out for each other from a community. I was speaking to, the CEO, Chad Nelson, of, Surfrider.

46:17 Mm-hmm. And I asked him, I said, " you guys have a great, like grassroots sort of community built around the world." And I said like, "What is it that brings that out?" And he's like, " he always says it's like, it's one of those things where it's like the tagline should be like, "Come for the impact, but stay for the community." Yeah. Because you're sh- Mm-hmm. … you're around people that share the same values as you, and that's an important aspect. Yeah. It could be like a sports team, But this is like an environmentally focused, community group. And I think that's- Yeah … that's what you're building across the UK. I feel inspired just by seeing that, and then talking to both of you. So don't feel the apo- I know it's easy to say don't feel it. But you're gonna do great. I'm looking forward to attending. can you just- Okay … if for people who are attending that are listening to this, do you have the information, of the day, when it's happening and the time?

47:01 I think, uh, so, I'm gonna hope I get this right. The 16th. It's the 16th at 9:30 in the morning. so it's the opening, plenary session. Perfect. And it's entitled Small Grants, Big Impact. Perfect. And we're alongside some amazing people too. So- there'll be some good insights from all of them as well. I can't wait. This is gonna be a lot of fun. I'm sure you're gonna get, a lot of questions about what makes a grant stand out and all that kind of stuff. And I would love- Sure maybe even after the conference or sometime after, once you've been able to sort of, relax a little bit after the conference, have you back on to just see what the experience was like and be able to talk about, what's next or what you got out of it, to see what's next. Oh, I'd love that. I'd love to have you back on the podcast as, as- Oh, that'd be great, Andrew That'd be lovely.

47:44 Thanks for having me back. It's been such a good conversation. Thank you so much for letting us talk about, uh, something that we could talk about for days. So thank you. Yeah. Well, to the both of you, again, thank you so much for, like founding SeaChangers and all the people who work alongside, you and, all the community groups who've applied. , It's just amazing. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thank you. You bet. Thank you, Helen and Rachel, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I cannot wait to meet you in person, and enjoy the conference together. It's gonna be a lot of fun. I wanna thank you again for coming on and sharing your journey with SeaChangers. And this just goes to show how just some little things can impact a lot of people, inspire people to impact a lot of people. Not just to come up with their own project, but also come up with a project that empowers others to, not only, propose but also implement their project ideas.

48:29 I love the idea of SeaChangers. I think it's such a great idea. I think we need more of that in every country or every part of every country, and to see more communities come together through environmental conservation. it really, speaks to how I've been feeling with having conversations with friends and family, in and around my own city here in Burlington, Ontario, where people are going through it in life. cost of living is rising and the economy's going crazy. Politics are in every- off everybody's mind these days, especially here in North America, and we are, bogged down by a lot of, problems, and then we have the environmental problems that happen on top of that are not getting addressed. But it's not because they're not getting addressed 'cause people don't wanna do them, it's they have other things going on.

49:12 But communities can come together and do little things locally to bring that hope up. And last week when I interviewed, Lily, from Surfrider, Foundation Canada, we talked about how a small project in Tofino about reducing plastic pollution led to no plastic pollution coming up on Tofino's beaches, and then led to doing more within the province and doing more to other cities as well. and I think that's important that community coming together, over one cause and helping each other gives hope for a lot of things, not just the environment, but the economy and everything else. It's just coming together and being together and being authentic and having fun and looking out for each other. I think there's a lot in that and a fund between, 500 and, 2,500 pounds it can go a long way, for a community.

49:56 So I wanna thank, Helen and Rachel for the work that they've been able to do for Sea Changers and all the volunteers who work for them, and all the communities who have taken part. And if you are part of a community who's taken part with Sea Changers, I'd love to hear from you. But also, if you have a community that's taken part in, environmental conservation and maybe didn't have funding or you did get funding anyway, I'd love to hear from you as well. Let me know in the comments if you're listening to this on Spotify, but if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast app, just hit me up. I would love to hear from you, all about what's been happening in your community and what type of projects that you've been a part of or your community's been a part of. and until then, I wanna thank Helen and Rachel for joining us. I wanna thank you for listening to this episode, and all the episodes for this week are all going to be around the International Marine Conservation Congress, and next week you'll probably hear episodes from me at the Congress and telling you conversations that I've had, reflections that people have had about the Congress, maybe a couple of interviews, we'll see.

50:48 But this is all gonna be interviews this week. so they're gonna be longer episodes. That's okay. You can listen to them, and you'll be able to hear how people are excited about what's been happening. So thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time, and happy conservation.