Sept. 8, 2026
Can Bacteria Actually Eat Plastic?
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Overcast Bacteria that eat plastic sounds like the fix everyone's been waiting for, and Andrew gets sent videos about it constantly. So on this solo episode, following Monday's interview with Dr. Anja Brandon of Ocean Conservancy, he goes looking for the real state of the science. The short version: it's promising, it's roughly a decade of real research deep, and it is nowhere close to running at the scale the ocean plastic crisis actually needs.
The bacterium that started this whole field, Ideonella sakaiensis, was discovered breaking down PET plastic in Japan in 2016. A 2025 breakthrough from NREL, UMass Lowell, and the University of Portsmouth engineered an improved PET-degrading enzyme that cut chemical use by more than 99%, running costs by 74%, and energy use by 65%, modeling out to a cost that actually undercuts virgin plastic. It's a genuinely exciting result. It's also still lab-stage, with no commercial plant running it yet. Carbios, the French company furthest along at trying to bring enzymatic PET recycling to industrial scale, is proof of just how hard that jump is: its flagship French plant is delayed, its cash reserves have been cut by more than a third, it slashed 40% of its workforce, and it's now pivoting toward a joint venture in China that's faced its own shareholder disputes.
Then there's the other technology people call "plastic-eating," chemical recycling through pyrolysis, which isn't biological at all. It's plastic melted down with extreme heat back into oil and gas, currently handling under 1.3% of US plastic waste according to advocacy group Beyond Plastics, regulated by the EPA as a form of incineration (a classification the agency is actively trying to change as of this year), and excluded from the EU's own definition of recycling entirely. Andrew lays out where the real hope sits, where the hype outruns the evidence, and why reduce, reuse, and refuse still does more for the ocean than any of this, at least for now.
Takeaways:
- The bacterium behind the "plastic-eating bacteria" field, Ideonella sakaiensis, was discovered in Japan in 2016, and the research is real but still roughly a decade from meaningful commercial scale.
- A 2025 enzyme breakthrough from NREL, UMass Lowell, and the University of Portsmouth models out to costs that undercut virgin plastic, but it's a lab and modeling result, not a running commercial plant.
- Carbios, the company furthest along at industrial-scale enzymatic PET recycling, still can't get its flagship French plant operational and is now pivoting toward a contested joint venture in China.
- Chemical recycling (pyrolysis) is a separate, non-biological technology that melts plastic down with heat, currently handles under 1.3% of US plastic waste, and is regulated by the EPA as incineration, a classification the agency is actively trying to change in 2026.
- Advocacy group Beyond Plastics found pyrolysis facility emissions can run 10 to 100 times higher than making virgin plastic, and that multiple US pyrolysis facilities have already shut down or gone bankrupt.
- None of these technologies are close to solving ocean plastic pollution at scale right now; reducing single-use plastics at the source still does more, and that requires government leadership, not just individual habit changes.
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Transcript
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If you listened to the episode yesterday,
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we had Anya Brandon, Dr. Anya Brandon,
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who talked about microfibers. And in the
interview,
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she actually made a joke about the future
of having a machine in your apartment that
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can break down all your plastics and you
can reuse the materials for something
else.
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Then she kind of laughed at herself for
even thinking that.
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But it kind of got me thinking.
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It's like I get a lot of these
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you know, videos or things like that from
friends who are like,
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hey Andrews, is there such thing as
bacteria eating plastic?
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And can we use this as an innovative
innovative way to,
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you know, clean up our plastic habits and
and clean up the plastics
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to recycle them to something better?
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and it, you know what, I was like,
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I don't know. Well let's let's look.
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I know there's times where yes,
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that's happened, but we don't know at the
scale and can we actually run that
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on a full scale
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like plants that are actually able to do
this,
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like like you know, warehouses or
manufacturing plants that can actually
break down
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bacteria using bacteria eating plastic.
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Or is there another way that we can do
this where we can actually get ahead
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of this plastic pollution epidemic that
we're in?
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And you know what? We're gonna find that
out on today's episode of
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the How to Protect the Ocean podcast
because this is where you find
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out all ocean news, new innovative ways of
~ helping protect the ocean.
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As well as just getting updates on what's
happening in the ocean.
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That's what we do here today. So if you
like that kind of information,
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you're new here, welcome. We've been doing
this since twenty thousand fifteen.
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and we'd love for you to join the
community.
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So all you have to do is just follow this
podcast on your favorite podcast
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out that you listen to it right now.
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and you'll get more information Monday to
Friday.
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~ and it'll be a lot of fun. We do an
interview at the beginning of the week.
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Sometimes we're at the end of the week.
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We're gonna switch it to the beginning of
the week,
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and then we're gonna do solo episodes to
break down that interview just exactly.
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what we're doing today. So in that
interview yesterday,
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if you had a chance after this episode,
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go listen to that interview yesterday.
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It should be the episode right before
this.
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you know, Anya said, like, said,
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you know, and and I think it's worth
restating kind of like what she claimed
here.
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It's like plastic degrading bacteria
research is still it's roughly a decade
old,
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but it still hasn't come close to the
meaningful at scale business type that
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we really need. And and, you know,
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it's in it's more realistic as a
compliment
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to recycling or wastewater treatment than
you know,
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a cleanup miracle. So like right now,
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right off the bat, I would say,
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no, don't consider this our way out.
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It's not even close to what we need right
now.
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And we're gonna break that down as to why
in in in in more detail.
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Now, ~ I asked her, you know, why this is
happening and and I said like,
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are we creating a technology for a problem
that like we don't need to solve?
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Because that's essentially what
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is is is coming up here. And she compared
or like,
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you know, an overpromised tech fixes to
something like the Ocean Cleanup Project.
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If you were on Ocean Decoded Live on my
YouTube,
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~ you could see how I talked about the
ocean cleanup and how that
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was a technology that we didn't really
need that actually made it worse
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in the ocean than better. and that like
these pitches,
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you know, for fast fixes for something
that really needs to be stopped
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at the source is is they're just
distractions,
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right?
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It it's just like when a politician when
trying to when they're trying
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to answer a question and they refer to
something different just to
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get out of answering that question because
they know people aren't gonna like
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the question. Right. Now Anya was being
pretty modest of of what
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was actually like the the landscape that
we're here,
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right? and going into what the plastic
eating bacteria landscape is like.
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And so, you know, today we're gonna talk
about that.
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It's actually a a pretty messy one,
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~
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we talk about the bacteria question and
whether it's actually a ready to
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go kind of thing. So let's go there
because I think that's what's really
important
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here. now first thing to to let you know
is like the bacterium that started this
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whole field is called Idianella
Sacchianis.
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Okay, Sacyanis, sorry. we it was
discovered breaking down the PET plastics
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in Japan back in 2016. It was actually
peer reviewed,
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published in published
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Published paper in science. Now in in
2025,
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researchers at NRL, UMass Lowell,
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and the University of Portsmouth
engineered an improved version of that
what
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we call PET AS enzyme that made enzymatic
PET recycling ~ dramatically cheaper.
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And the there's less acid and base
chemical use is down 99%.
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Running the cost is down 74% and the
energy use is down 65%.
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And their modeled costs like the enzyme
recycled PET about a dollar fifty
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one per kilogram. That's US. ~ and it
actually undercuts the the virgin plastic
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by by about 30 almost 40 cents at a dollar
eighty seven per kilogram.
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So it's cheaper, it's uses less energy,
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it it the costs are are are cheaper to go
down,
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and of course the chemical use is down
99%,
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which is all which is all great.
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and this is like a you know a government
and university source.
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This is incredible as this space gets.
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The catch is though, ~ and it's the same
thing that Anya said,
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is like this is still just in a
development set phase.
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It's not at a commercial scale yet.
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no firm deployment date has happened so
far.
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and it really depends entirely,
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you know, someone actually investing to
build the first US plant.
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So like the the it's there, it's not
commercialized yet,
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and it's not as scale work we use,
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but it's still, you know, it it it there's
a possibility for it to happen.
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Not saying that it'll never happen.
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There's a possibility for it to happen.
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Now, you know, I hate to say it on your
skepticism as scientists,
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like we all do, like this is not near
where we are.
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So that makes sense, right? even the best
lab breakthrough in this space
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is still lab only and it's still only
happening.
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So we still have a lot of stuff that that
needs to go on.
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Now, there are companies who are trying to
do this.
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They're trying to do use this enzymatic
PET recycling.
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one company is a French company,
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Carbios or CACBOS.
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I think is how you pronounce it.
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they built an entire business around this
enzymatic PET recycling
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at an industrial scale, which makes it
probably the best real world test
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of whether this technology can leave the
lab.
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And and I'll be honest, like it's still
early,
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right? So I I don't want to down this this
company because you know
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it everything is early in this technology.
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And like this is really the first that I
see from from the the
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the looking around and research that I've
been able to do.
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This is the first company that I've seen
that actually.
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is wants to bring it to that industrial
scale.
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So so let's give it a some some grace in
terms of what's happening,
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of course. but like their flagship in
plant in Longue Longueville,
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Longue la Ville, France is not operational
yet.
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The construction was delayed six to nine
months due to financial problems
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or financing problems. And then the cash
reserves dropped from 112 million euros
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in two November 2004 to 72 million euros
in June 2025.
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And they cut about 40% of their workforce
in January 2025.
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So as you can see, the the space is still
quite volatile.
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There's a lot of money involved.
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You're looking at 122 112 million euros
and 72 million euros.
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That's a lot of money in this space.
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So the people are serious about this
stuff.
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They've just haven't been able to get the
the the ~ industry up and running
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and and this warehouse up and running and
this technology
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at a scale. Now, according to sources,
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they've they've pivoted towards Asia.
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a new joint venture with a Chinese PET
producer Wang Kei
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New Materials targeted about 50,000 ton
plastic or sorry,
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50,000 ton plant in Zhaijiang,
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in China. the construction is planned for
early was planned for early 2026,
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commissioning targeted for about early
2027,
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but I can't verify that. So the timeline
is still it's moving fast
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and that can change.
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but there's really no like a like that
like there's no real solidification in
this.
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Like a a shareholder group that was that
from Carbios still
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is raising concerns about the the the deal
with China,
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like the China company, the Chinese
company.
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and Carbios has denied the allegations
that there is any kind of concerns
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to be worried about, and it filed a legal
complaint again calling
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it a destabilization campaign.
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So again, there's still a lot of stuff.
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There's nothing I can really verify other
than the source that I got it from here,
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but like this is all in motion,
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right? But the biggest takeaway here is
like like even the most promising
enzymatic
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recycling company in the world still can't
get one plant running.
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So we are still not there. It's not to say
that it'll happen.
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It's just the question is real,
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is like how far are we from this at scale,
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right? So there are people in interested
and it could happen to move it forward,
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but we're not sure what's gonna happen
with this at this point.
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Right. now the other thing, you know,
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it that like this plastic eating tech,
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it's it's it's kind of like it's a little
bit controversial,
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right? Or the other thing that people call
plastic eating tech.
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I think that's the difference,
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right? We have this bacteria that eats
plastic,
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like the PET plastic, but then we have
others that they call it back they call
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it plastic eating, but is it really
plastic eating?
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Right. So I want you to know that the
other quote unquote plastic eating tech
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is chemical recycling.
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Right. It's called pyrolysis. And it's
it's not biological.
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It's a chemical way of doing it.
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It's basically breaking down the plastic
with extreme heat that goes makes
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it go back into oil or gas. So you gotta
remember that plastic
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is a petroleum product. So it is made from
petroleum products.
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So it's made from oil and gas.
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So if you if you heat it, you can get oil
from it.
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How clean that is to really reuse as you
know,
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gas or oil or anything like that,
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I don't know. But people, you know,
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the people are are doing this.
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and it's also it's like people when people
hear like
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new plastic recycling technology in the
news,
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that's what people are picturing a lot of
the time,
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right? It's not the bacteria eating thing
because that's still not there as
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we as we talked about, right? ~ now it's
it's it's pitched as
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a solution for plastics, but that can't be
mechanically recycled,
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right? It's just broken down into this
this oil and gassed kind of material.
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So it's not really there. Now an advocacy
group named Beyond Plastics.
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They label this as their like advocacy.
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So it's like it's not peer-reviewed.
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This is advocacy. ~ these ~ facilities cur
they say these facilities currently
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handle under 1% of the US plastic waste.
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one example, the Free Point facility in
Ohio takes in 170 ~ million pounds
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of plastic and produces only 26 million
pounds of new plastic.
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So it's not really recycling, it and and
the rest becomes a byproduct.
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So the US EPA actually regulates
pyrolysis.
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As incineration, not recycling.
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And the EU excludes it from the EU
excludes it from its ex as from
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its recycling definitions outright,
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largely because most output, you know,
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becomes fuel to burn and not new plastic.
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Right. So it's not recycling, it's more of
just breaking it down back into
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its original form, which is less than what
it was.
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And it's a way, it's it's something that
could be done.
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~ but the same advocacy source clays like
multiple pyrolysis pyrolysis facilities
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have shut down or gone bankrupt.
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While running at a fraction of state of
capacity,
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and that the emissions of these plants can
run far higher than making virgin
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00:10:51,017 --> 00:10:55,408
plastic. So again, you're using a high
heat to break down this air,
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this, this, these chemicals, like this
this basic chemical product into oil and
gas.
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The rest become byproduct, but there's a
lot of chemicals,
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nasty chemicals in there. Where's all that
going?
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How is it being treated? There's a lot of
questions there that I haven't answered
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in this in this episode, but it's it's
kind of
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goes beyond the scope, but it can be,
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it can be dangerous, right? ~ but this is,
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you know, it's not peer-reviewed.
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This is what advocacy organizations are
saying.
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So I want to make sure that it that I I
state that.
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~ an industry, you know, disputes this
type of framing.
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But when you really look at it,
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it is melting it down using high heat.
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So with high heat comes energy use,
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comes this. Probably not the better than
the bacteria eating plastic,
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but, you know, it is something that,
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you know, that can that can take away some
of the plastic.
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Right. now the thing is here is we ask,
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like when people send me these videos,
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like, hey Andrew, can we actually do this?
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Is this something that's being done on a
regular basis?
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The thing is, like when we look at the
plastic pollution problem that we have
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in the ocean, this is not even coming
close to what we can do.
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Right. And not saying that it's not
getting there.
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We always have to go through our steps to
get there to use the technology
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to get there. But it's not the biggest
thing that we can do right now,
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right?
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The most scientifically credible path,
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00:12:11,398 --> 00:12:14,258
the enzyme the enzymatic recycling of the
bacteria recycling,
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00:12:14,258 --> 00:12:17,668
you know, it might finally reach like a
cost that's that's that has like
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00:12:17,668 --> 00:12:21,659
per parity with like the virgin plastic on
paper.
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But the company that's that's the furthest
along is still,
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you know, is is is building at a real
scale.
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It still can't put a get a full like one
plant fully running.
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00:12:30,782 --> 00:12:34,973
Right. And the chemical recycling has more
facilities announced,
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00:12:34,973 --> 00:12:37,944
but the critics say most of what it comes
out of it.
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00:12:38,350 --> 00:12:41,272
the other end isn't just new it's not new
plastic at all and plus
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00:12:41,272 --> 00:12:45,164
it could cause more problems for you know
climate change not
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00:12:45,164 --> 00:12:50,157
not helping the situation as well right so
look we are ~ you know are
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00:12:50,157 --> 00:12:54,189
we creating a technology for a problem we
don't need to resolve you know
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00:12:54,930 --> 00:12:59,102
not maybe maybe you know but I think it
reinforces the point that
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00:12:59,102 --> 00:13:04,775
hey you know reduction reuse reduce and
and and and just like refuse
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00:13:05,584 --> 00:13:09,286
you know, is is really where we get
furthest with plastic,
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00:13:09,286 --> 00:13:12,168
you know, that and so we don't make it in
the first place.
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00:13:12,168 --> 00:13:14,199
and that is still waiting on a fix.
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00:13:14,199 --> 00:13:18,332
That's a that's a big thing. And and when
we talk about plastic,
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there's plastics in many forms.
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00:13:20,153 --> 00:13:22,254
When we talk about the plastics that we
all think of,
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00:13:22,254 --> 00:13:25,236
the hard plastic and things like the
single-use plastics are the ones that
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00:13:25,236 --> 00:13:28,899
we don't need to use. ~ it's going to come
from not only individuals,
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00:13:28,899 --> 00:13:33,322
but really government ~ sort of leadership
on this to ban
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00:13:33,682 --> 00:13:37,944
single-use plastics from being used
because they are not good for the
environment.
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00:13:37,944 --> 00:13:40,885
And the amount of plastics that are
getting into the ocean,
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00:13:40,885 --> 00:13:43,266
we can't clean up as much as we use.
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00:13:43,266 --> 00:13:46,967
Like even if we have all the boats along
all the rivers in the world,
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it'll that that'll that'll be almost an
impossible feat to even get to.
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00:13:50,669 --> 00:13:52,980
But we need to just stop it at the source.
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00:13:52,980 --> 00:13:54,731
We need to stop using single-use plastics.
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00:13:54,731 --> 00:13:59,133
We need to stop getting it. That will
reduce a huge amount and that needs
government
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00:13:59,133 --> 00:14:00,133
leadership.
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00:13:59,923 --> 00:14:02,424
Yes, we can reduce the use of that
single-use plastics.
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00:14:02,424 --> 00:14:03,576
And we're starting to do that.
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00:14:03,576 --> 00:14:05,398
but sometimes they cause other problems.
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00:14:05,398 --> 00:14:08,760
You never know. ~ but the f the fact of
the matter is,
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00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:13,604
is that we are we we are in a crisis right
now with plastic pollution.
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00:14:13,604 --> 00:14:16,046
It is everywhere. It is in our lungs,
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00:14:16,046 --> 00:14:18,688
it is in the air, it is in the water,
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00:14:18,688 --> 00:14:21,611
it is everywhere. And we need to reduce it
quickly,
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00:14:21,611 --> 00:14:23,532
or we are going to start seeing it,
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00:14:23,532 --> 00:14:25,954
the effects. We're already starting to see
the effects in our own health,
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00:14:25,954 --> 00:14:29,017
but we're gonna see it for generations and
generations on top.
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00:14:29,383 --> 00:14:31,695
So we're gonna talk about plastic all this
week,
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00:14:31,695 --> 00:14:35,438
and we're really gonna be focusing in next
episode on you know,
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00:14:35,438 --> 00:14:40,612
following an ordinary source of plastic
that you wouldn't necessarily think about,
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00:14:40,612 --> 00:14:44,034
and that's microfibers that Anya talked
about on your on her interview yesterday.
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00:14:44,034 --> 00:14:47,577
We're gonna go from the washing machine
all the way into the ocean
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00:14:47,577 --> 00:14:50,639
on tomorrow's episode. So don't miss that
episode.
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00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:52,420
So if you want to, if you don't want to
miss it,
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00:14:52,420 --> 00:14:54,372
just hit that follow button if you haven't
done already.
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00:14:54,372 --> 00:14:55,953
It'll be right in your feed tomorrow
morning.
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But I want to thank you so much.
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00:14:57,266 --> 00:14:58,266
That's the end of this episode.
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00:14:58,177 --> 00:14:59,608
If you have any questions or comments,
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00:14:59,608 --> 00:15:02,571
if you're listening to this on Spotify
that allows you to have comments,
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00:15:02,571 --> 00:15:05,514
God, I wish podcasting platforms would
allow more comments.
303
00:15:05,514 --> 00:15:08,217
~ please, you know, hit me up with a
comment.
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00:15:08,217 --> 00:15:10,579
I'd love to be able to hear what you have
to say because this is the beginning
305
00:15:10,579 --> 00:15:12,952
of a conversation and I want to hear what
you have to say.
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00:15:12,952 --> 00:15:16,656
Do you know more about this this type of
product or plastic eating bacteria that
307
00:15:16,656 --> 00:15:18,067
you might have some more insights on?
308
00:15:18,067 --> 00:15:19,067
Let me know.
309
00:15:19,072 --> 00:15:24,479
Hit me up either on Spotify comments or
you can ~ hit me up on a DM Instagram,
310
00:15:24,479 --> 00:15:27,633
TikTok, Facebook, wherever you see me,
311
00:15:27,633 --> 00:15:30,206
or even LinkedIn, actually, probably the
best way to get a hold of me.
312
00:15:30,206 --> 00:15:32,140
But I want to thank you. That's it for
today's episode.
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00:15:32,140 --> 00:15:34,561
I want thank you so much for joining me on
today's episode of the How
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00:15:34,561 --> 00:15:36,263
to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Have a great
day.
315
00:15:36,263 --> 00:15:38,226
We'll talk to you tomorrow and happy
conservation.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,622
If you listened to the episode yesterday,
2
00:00:02,622 --> 00:00:05,354
we had Anya Brandon, Dr. Anya Brandon,
3
00:00:05,354 --> 00:00:08,057
who talked about microfibers. And in the
interview,
4
00:00:08,057 --> 00:00:13,832
she actually made a joke about the future
of having a machine in your apartment that
5
00:00:13,832 --> 00:00:17,716
can break down all your plastics and you
can reuse the materials for something
else.
6
00:00:17,716 --> 00:00:20,729
Then she kind of laughed at herself for
even thinking that.
7
00:00:20,729 --> 00:00:22,361
But it kind of got me thinking.
8
00:00:22,361 --> 00:00:24,372
It's like I get a lot of these
9
00:00:25,375 --> 00:00:28,167
you know, videos or things like that from
friends who are like,
10
00:00:28,167 --> 00:00:31,850
hey Andrews, is there such thing as
bacteria eating plastic?
11
00:00:31,850 --> 00:00:35,853
And can we use this as an innovative
innovative way to,
12
00:00:35,853 --> 00:00:39,126
you know, clean up our plastic habits and
and clean up the plastics
13
00:00:39,126 --> 00:00:40,707
to recycle them to something better?
14
00:00:40,707 --> 00:00:41,878
and it, you know what, I was like,
15
00:00:41,878 --> 00:00:43,259
I don't know. Well let's let's look.
16
00:00:43,259 --> 00:00:45,021
I know there's times where yes,
17
00:00:45,021 --> 00:00:48,253
that's happened, but we don't know at the
scale and can we actually run that
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00:00:48,253 --> 00:00:49,444
on a full scale
19
00:00:49,846 --> 00:00:51,587
like plants that are actually able to do
this,
20
00:00:51,587 --> 00:00:55,549
like like you know, warehouses or
manufacturing plants that can actually
break down
21
00:00:55,549 --> 00:00:57,850
bacteria using bacteria eating plastic.
22
00:00:57,850 --> 00:01:01,422
Or is there another way that we can do
this where we can actually get ahead
23
00:01:01,422 --> 00:01:03,883
of this plastic pollution epidemic that
we're in?
24
00:01:03,883 --> 00:01:06,714
And you know what? We're gonna find that
out on today's episode of
25
00:01:06,714 --> 00:01:08,745
the How to Protect the Ocean podcast
because this is where you find
26
00:01:08,745 --> 00:01:13,908
out all ocean news, new innovative ways of
~ helping protect the ocean.
27
00:01:14,208 --> 00:01:17,631
As well as just getting updates on what's
happening in the ocean.
28
00:01:17,631 --> 00:01:20,053
That's what we do here today. So if you
like that kind of information,
29
00:01:20,053 --> 00:01:23,816
you're new here, welcome. We've been doing
this since twenty thousand fifteen.
30
00:01:23,816 --> 00:01:25,527
and we'd love for you to join the
community.
31
00:01:25,527 --> 00:01:28,579
So all you have to do is just follow this
podcast on your favorite podcast
32
00:01:28,579 --> 00:01:29,749
out that you listen to it right now.
33
00:01:29,749 --> 00:01:31,881
and you'll get more information Monday to
Friday.
34
00:01:31,881 --> 00:01:35,884
~ and it'll be a lot of fun. We do an
interview at the beginning of the week.
35
00:01:35,884 --> 00:01:36,884
Sometimes we're at the end of the week.
36
00:01:36,815 --> 00:01:38,246
We're gonna switch it to the beginning of
the week,
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00:01:38,246 --> 00:01:41,829
and then we're gonna do solo episodes to
break down that interview just exactly.
38
00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,372
what we're doing today. So in that
interview yesterday,
39
00:01:45,372 --> 00:01:47,033
if you had a chance after this episode,
40
00:01:47,033 --> 00:01:48,382
go listen to that interview yesterday.
41
00:01:48,382 --> 00:01:49,855
It should be the episode right before
this.
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00:01:49,855 --> 00:01:51,366
you know, Anya said, like, said,
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00:01:51,366 --> 00:01:54,698
you know, and and I think it's worth
restating kind of like what she claimed
here.
44
00:01:54,698 --> 00:01:58,661
It's like plastic degrading bacteria
research is still it's roughly a decade
old,
45
00:01:58,661 --> 00:02:03,283
but it still hasn't come close to the
meaningful at scale business type that
46
00:02:03,283 --> 00:02:05,155
we really need. And and, you know,
47
00:02:05,155 --> 00:02:08,417
it's in it's more realistic as a
compliment
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00:02:08,747 --> 00:02:12,389
to recycling or wastewater treatment than
you know,
49
00:02:12,389 --> 00:02:14,750
a cleanup miracle. So like right now,
50
00:02:14,750 --> 00:02:16,411
right off the bat, I would say,
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00:02:16,411 --> 00:02:19,232
no, don't consider this our way out.
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00:02:19,232 --> 00:02:21,153
It's not even close to what we need right
now.
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00:02:21,153 --> 00:02:24,934
And we're gonna break that down as to why
in in in in more detail.
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00:02:24,934 --> 00:02:28,876
Now, ~ I asked her, you know, why this is
happening and and I said like,
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00:02:28,876 --> 00:02:32,398
are we creating a technology for a problem
that like we don't need to solve?
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00:02:32,398 --> 00:02:33,448
Because that's essentially what
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00:02:34,180 --> 00:02:37,321
is is is coming up here. And she compared
or like,
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00:02:37,321 --> 00:02:41,076
you know, an overpromised tech fixes to
something like the Ocean Cleanup Project.
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00:02:41,076 --> 00:02:44,249
If you were on Ocean Decoded Live on my
YouTube,
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00:02:44,249 --> 00:02:47,201
~ you could see how I talked about the
ocean cleanup and how that
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00:02:47,201 --> 00:02:49,543
was a technology that we didn't really
need that actually made it worse
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00:02:49,543 --> 00:02:52,967
in the ocean than better. and that like
these pitches,
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00:02:52,967 --> 00:02:56,760
you know, for fast fixes for something
that really needs to be stopped
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00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:58,951
at the source is is they're just
distractions,
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00:02:58,951 --> 00:02:59,951
right?
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00:02:59,786 --> 00:03:02,168
It it's just like when a politician when
trying to when they're trying
67
00:03:02,168 --> 00:03:04,700
to answer a question and they refer to
something different just to
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00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:07,442
get out of answering that question because
they know people aren't gonna like
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00:03:07,442 --> 00:03:11,345
the question. Right. Now Anya was being
pretty modest of of what
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00:03:11,345 --> 00:03:13,545
was actually like the the landscape that
we're here,
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00:03:13,545 --> 00:03:17,129
right? and going into what the plastic
eating bacteria landscape is like.
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00:03:17,129 --> 00:03:19,730
And so, you know, today we're gonna talk
about that.
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00:03:19,730 --> 00:03:21,162
It's actually a a pretty messy one,
74
00:03:21,162 --> 00:03:22,162
~
75
00:03:21,532 --> 00:03:24,283
we talk about the bacteria question and
whether it's actually a ready to
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00:03:24,283 --> 00:03:27,534
go kind of thing. So let's go there
because I think that's what's really
important
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00:03:27,534 --> 00:03:32,256
here. now first thing to to let you know
is like the bacterium that started this
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00:03:32,256 --> 00:03:35,977
whole field is called Idianella
Sacchianis.
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00:03:35,977 --> 00:03:42,039
Okay, Sacyanis, sorry. we it was
discovered breaking down the PET plastics
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00:03:42,039 --> 00:03:44,480
in Japan back in 2016. It was actually
peer reviewed,
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00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:46,211
published in published
82
00:03:46,341 --> 00:03:49,532
Published paper in science. Now in in
2025,
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00:03:49,532 --> 00:03:51,763
researchers at NRL, UMass Lowell,
84
00:03:51,763 --> 00:03:55,793
and the University of Portsmouth
engineered an improved version of that
what
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00:03:55,793 --> 00:04:02,046
we call PET AS enzyme that made enzymatic
PET recycling ~ dramatically cheaper.
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00:04:02,046 --> 00:04:06,768
And the there's less acid and base
chemical use is down 99%.
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00:04:06,768 --> 00:04:10,609
Running the cost is down 74% and the
energy use is down 65%.
88
00:04:11,339 --> 00:04:16,271
And their modeled costs like the enzyme
recycled PET about a dollar fifty
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00:04:16,271 --> 00:04:21,463
one per kilogram. That's US. ~ and it
actually undercuts the the virgin plastic
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00:04:21,463 --> 00:04:25,755
by by about 30 almost 40 cents at a dollar
eighty seven per kilogram.
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00:04:25,755 --> 00:04:28,736
So it's cheaper, it's uses less energy,
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00:04:28,736 --> 00:04:32,227
it it the costs are are are cheaper to go
down,
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00:04:32,227 --> 00:04:34,528
and of course the chemical use is down
99%,
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00:04:34,528 --> 00:04:35,979
which is all which is all great.
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00:04:35,979 --> 00:04:38,824
and this is like a you know a government
and university source.
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00:04:38,824 --> 00:04:40,831
This is incredible as this space gets.
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00:04:41,153 --> 00:04:44,354
The catch is though, ~ and it's the same
thing that Anya said,
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00:04:44,354 --> 00:04:46,715
is like this is still just in a
development set phase.
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00:04:46,715 --> 00:04:48,515
It's not at a commercial scale yet.
100
00:04:48,515 --> 00:04:52,826
no firm deployment date has happened so
far.
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00:04:52,826 --> 00:04:55,055
and it really depends entirely,
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00:04:55,055 --> 00:04:58,618
you know, someone actually investing to
build the first US plant.
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00:04:58,618 --> 00:05:01,949
So like the the it's there, it's not
commercialized yet,
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00:05:01,949 --> 00:05:03,559
and it's not as scale work we use,
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00:05:03,559 --> 00:05:08,401
but it's still, you know, it it it there's
a possibility for it to happen.
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00:05:08,401 --> 00:05:09,721
Not saying that it'll never happen.
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00:05:10,044 --> 00:05:11,915
There's a possibility for it to happen.
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00:05:11,915 --> 00:05:16,128
Now, you know, I hate to say it on your
skepticism as scientists,
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00:05:16,128 --> 00:05:18,990
like we all do, like this is not near
where we are.
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00:05:18,990 --> 00:05:22,514
So that makes sense, right? even the best
lab breakthrough in this space
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00:05:22,514 --> 00:05:24,846
is still lab only and it's still only
happening.
112
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So we still have a lot of stuff that that
needs to go on.
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Now, there are companies who are trying to
do this.
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They're trying to do use this enzymatic
PET recycling.
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one company is a French company,
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Carbios or CACBOS.
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I think is how you pronounce it.
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they built an entire business around this
enzymatic PET recycling
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at an industrial scale, which makes it
probably the best real world test
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of whether this technology can leave the
lab.
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And and I'll be honest, like it's still
early,
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right? So I I don't want to down this this
company because you know
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it everything is early in this technology.
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And like this is really the first that I
see from from the the
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the looking around and research that I've
been able to do.
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This is the first company that I've seen
that actually.
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is wants to bring it to that industrial
scale.
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So so let's give it a some some grace in
terms of what's happening,
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of course. but like their flagship in
plant in Longue Longueville,
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Longue la Ville, France is not operational
yet.
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The construction was delayed six to nine
months due to financial problems
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or financing problems. And then the cash
reserves dropped from 112 million euros
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in two November 2004 to 72 million euros
in June 2025.
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And they cut about 40% of their workforce
in January 2025.
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So as you can see, the the space is still
quite volatile.
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There's a lot of money involved.
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You're looking at 122 112 million euros
and 72 million euros.
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That's a lot of money in this space.
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So the people are serious about this
stuff.
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They've just haven't been able to get the
the the ~ industry up and running
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and and this warehouse up and running and
this technology
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at a scale. Now, according to sources,
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they've they've pivoted towards Asia.
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a new joint venture with a Chinese PET
producer Wang Kei
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New Materials targeted about 50,000 ton
plastic or sorry,
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50,000 ton plant in Zhaijiang,
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in China. the construction is planned for
early was planned for early 2026,
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commissioning targeted for about early
2027,
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but I can't verify that. So the timeline
is still it's moving fast
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and that can change.
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but there's really no like a like that
like there's no real solidification in
this.
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Like a a shareholder group that was that
from Carbios still
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is raising concerns about the the the deal
with China,
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like the China company, the Chinese
company.
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and Carbios has denied the allegations
that there is any kind of concerns
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to be worried about, and it filed a legal
complaint again calling
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it a destabilization campaign.
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So again, there's still a lot of stuff.
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There's nothing I can really verify other
than the source that I got it from here,
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but like this is all in motion,
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right? But the biggest takeaway here is
like like even the most promising
enzymatic
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recycling company in the world still can't
get one plant running.
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So we are still not there. It's not to say
that it'll happen.
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It's just the question is real,
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is like how far are we from this at scale,
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right? So there are people in interested
and it could happen to move it forward,
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but we're not sure what's gonna happen
with this at this point.
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Right. now the other thing, you know,
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it that like this plastic eating tech,
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it's it's it's kind of like it's a little
bit controversial,
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right? Or the other thing that people call
plastic eating tech.
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I think that's the difference,
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right? We have this bacteria that eats
plastic,
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like the PET plastic, but then we have
others that they call it back they call
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it plastic eating, but is it really
plastic eating?
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Right. So I want you to know that the
other quote unquote plastic eating tech
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is chemical recycling.
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Right. It's called pyrolysis. And it's
it's not biological.
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It's a chemical way of doing it.
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It's basically breaking down the plastic
with extreme heat that goes makes
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it go back into oil or gas. So you gotta
remember that plastic
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is a petroleum product. So it is made from
petroleum products.
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So it's made from oil and gas.
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00:09:06,681 --> 00:09:09,792
So if you if you heat it, you can get oil
from it.
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How clean that is to really reuse as you
know,
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00:09:12,663 --> 00:09:14,593
gas or oil or anything like that,
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00:09:14,593 --> 00:09:16,974
I don't know. But people, you know,
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the people are are doing this.
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00:09:19,018 --> 00:09:21,399
and it's also it's like people when people
hear like
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00:09:21,399 --> 00:09:23,431
new plastic recycling technology in the
news,
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00:09:23,431 --> 00:09:25,772
that's what people are picturing a lot of
the time,
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00:09:25,772 --> 00:09:28,744
right? It's not the bacteria eating thing
because that's still not there as
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00:09:28,744 --> 00:09:32,946
we as we talked about, right? ~ now it's
it's it's pitched as
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00:09:32,946 --> 00:09:37,258
a solution for plastics, but that can't be
mechanically recycled,
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00:09:37,258 --> 00:09:43,141
right? It's just broken down into this
this oil and gassed kind of material.
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00:09:43,141 --> 00:09:47,484
So it's not really there. Now an advocacy
group named Beyond Plastics.
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00:09:47,942 --> 00:09:51,064
They label this as their like advocacy.
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00:09:51,064 --> 00:09:52,705
So it's like it's not peer-reviewed.
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00:09:52,705 --> 00:09:57,559
This is advocacy. ~ these ~ facilities cur
they say these facilities currently
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00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,021
handle under 1% of the US plastic waste.
201
00:10:00,021 --> 00:10:06,005
one example, the Free Point facility in
Ohio takes in 170 ~ million pounds
202
00:10:06,005 --> 00:10:09,578
of plastic and produces only 26 million
pounds of new plastic.
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00:10:09,578 --> 00:10:12,950
So it's not really recycling, it and and
the rest becomes a byproduct.
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00:10:12,950 --> 00:10:15,302
So the US EPA actually regulates
pyrolysis.
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00:10:15,716 --> 00:10:17,597
As incineration, not recycling.
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00:10:17,597 --> 00:10:21,160
And the EU excludes it from the EU
excludes it from its ex as from
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00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:23,341
its recycling definitions outright,
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00:10:23,341 --> 00:10:25,768
largely because most output, you know,
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00:10:25,768 --> 00:10:28,489
becomes fuel to burn and not new plastic.
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00:10:28,489 --> 00:10:31,586
Right. So it's not recycling, it's more of
just breaking it down back into
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00:10:31,586 --> 00:10:34,088
its original form, which is less than what
it was.
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00:10:34,088 --> 00:10:36,930
And it's a way, it's it's something that
could be done.
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00:10:36,930 --> 00:10:42,664
~ but the same advocacy source clays like
multiple pyrolysis pyrolysis facilities
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00:10:42,664 --> 00:10:44,635
have shut down or gone bankrupt.
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00:10:45,055 --> 00:10:47,616
While running at a fraction of state of
capacity,
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00:10:47,616 --> 00:10:51,017
and that the emissions of these plants can
run far higher than making virgin
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00:10:51,017 --> 00:10:55,408
plastic. So again, you're using a high
heat to break down this air,
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00:10:55,408 --> 00:11:00,398
this, this, these chemicals, like this
this basic chemical product into oil and
gas.
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00:11:00,398 --> 00:11:02,930
The rest become byproduct, but there's a
lot of chemicals,
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00:11:02,930 --> 00:11:04,680
nasty chemicals in there. Where's all that
going?
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00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:08,111
How is it being treated? There's a lot of
questions there that I haven't answered
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00:11:08,111 --> 00:11:10,842
in this in this episode, but it's it's
kind of
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00:11:10,995 --> 00:11:12,466
goes beyond the scope, but it can be,
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00:11:12,466 --> 00:11:15,326
it can be dangerous, right? ~ but this is,
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00:11:15,326 --> 00:11:17,180
you know, it's not peer-reviewed.
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00:11:17,180 --> 00:11:19,221
This is what advocacy organizations are
saying.
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00:11:19,221 --> 00:11:21,583
So I want to make sure that it that I I
state that.
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00:11:21,583 --> 00:11:25,066
~ an industry, you know, disputes this
type of framing.
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00:11:25,066 --> 00:11:26,487
But when you really look at it,
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00:11:26,487 --> 00:11:28,849
it is melting it down using high heat.
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00:11:28,849 --> 00:11:30,890
So with high heat comes energy use,
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00:11:30,890 --> 00:11:35,234
comes this. Probably not the better than
the bacteria eating plastic,
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00:11:35,234 --> 00:11:37,595
but, you know, it is something that,
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00:11:37,595 --> 00:11:40,718
you know, that can that can take away some
of the plastic.
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00:11:41,116 --> 00:11:45,088
Right. now the thing is here is we ask,
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00:11:45,088 --> 00:11:47,299
like when people send me these videos,
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00:11:47,299 --> 00:11:49,310
like, hey Andrew, can we actually do this?
238
00:11:49,310 --> 00:11:51,411
Is this something that's being done on a
regular basis?
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00:11:51,411 --> 00:11:54,793
The thing is, like when we look at the
plastic pollution problem that we have
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00:11:54,793 --> 00:11:58,915
in the ocean, this is not even coming
close to what we can do.
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00:11:58,915 --> 00:12:00,876
Right. And not saying that it's not
getting there.
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00:12:00,876 --> 00:12:04,158
We always have to go through our steps to
get there to use the technology
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00:12:04,158 --> 00:12:08,441
to get there. But it's not the biggest
thing that we can do right now,
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00:12:08,441 --> 00:12:09,441
right?
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00:12:09,377 --> 00:12:11,398
The most scientifically credible path,
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00:12:11,398 --> 00:12:14,258
the enzyme the enzymatic recycling of the
bacteria recycling,
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00:12:14,258 --> 00:12:17,668
you know, it might finally reach like a
cost that's that's that has like
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00:12:17,668 --> 00:12:21,659
per parity with like the virgin plastic on
paper.
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00:12:21,659 --> 00:12:24,680
But the company that's that's the furthest
along is still,
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00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:27,421
you know, is is is building at a real
scale.
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00:12:27,421 --> 00:12:30,782
It still can't put a get a full like one
plant fully running.
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00:12:30,782 --> 00:12:34,973
Right. And the chemical recycling has more
facilities announced,
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00:12:34,973 --> 00:12:37,944
but the critics say most of what it comes
out of it.
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00:12:38,350 --> 00:12:41,272
the other end isn't just new it's not new
plastic at all and plus
255
00:12:41,272 --> 00:12:45,164
it could cause more problems for you know
climate change not
256
00:12:45,164 --> 00:12:50,157
not helping the situation as well right so
look we are ~ you know are
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00:12:50,157 --> 00:12:54,189
we creating a technology for a problem we
don't need to resolve you know
258
00:12:54,930 --> 00:12:59,102
not maybe maybe you know but I think it
reinforces the point that
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00:12:59,102 --> 00:13:04,775
hey you know reduction reuse reduce and
and and and just like refuse
260
00:13:05,584 --> 00:13:09,286
you know, is is really where we get
furthest with plastic,
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00:13:09,286 --> 00:13:12,168
you know, that and so we don't make it in
the first place.
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00:13:12,168 --> 00:13:14,199
and that is still waiting on a fix.
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00:13:14,199 --> 00:13:18,332
That's a that's a big thing. And and when
we talk about plastic,
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00:13:18,332 --> 00:13:20,153
there's plastics in many forms.
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00:13:20,153 --> 00:13:22,254
When we talk about the plastics that we
all think of,
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00:13:22,254 --> 00:13:25,236
the hard plastic and things like the
single-use plastics are the ones that
267
00:13:25,236 --> 00:13:28,899
we don't need to use. ~ it's going to come
from not only individuals,
268
00:13:28,899 --> 00:13:33,322
but really government ~ sort of leadership
on this to ban
269
00:13:33,682 --> 00:13:37,944
single-use plastics from being used
because they are not good for the
environment.
270
00:13:37,944 --> 00:13:40,885
And the amount of plastics that are
getting into the ocean,
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00:13:40,885 --> 00:13:43,266
we can't clean up as much as we use.
272
00:13:43,266 --> 00:13:46,967
Like even if we have all the boats along
all the rivers in the world,
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00:13:46,967 --> 00:13:50,669
it'll that that'll that'll be almost an
impossible feat to even get to.
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00:13:50,669 --> 00:13:52,980
But we need to just stop it at the source.
275
00:13:52,980 --> 00:13:54,731
We need to stop using single-use plastics.
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00:13:54,731 --> 00:13:59,133
We need to stop getting it. That will
reduce a huge amount and that needs
government
277
00:13:59,133 --> 00:14:00,133
leadership.
278
00:13:59,923 --> 00:14:02,424
Yes, we can reduce the use of that
single-use plastics.
279
00:14:02,424 --> 00:14:03,576
And we're starting to do that.
280
00:14:03,576 --> 00:14:05,398
but sometimes they cause other problems.
281
00:14:05,398 --> 00:14:08,760
You never know. ~ but the f the fact of
the matter is,
282
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:13,604
is that we are we we are in a crisis right
now with plastic pollution.
283
00:14:13,604 --> 00:14:16,046
It is everywhere. It is in our lungs,
284
00:14:16,046 --> 00:14:18,688
it is in the air, it is in the water,
285
00:14:18,688 --> 00:14:21,611
it is everywhere. And we need to reduce it
quickly,
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00:14:21,611 --> 00:14:23,532
or we are going to start seeing it,
287
00:14:23,532 --> 00:14:25,954
the effects. We're already starting to see
the effects in our own health,
288
00:14:25,954 --> 00:14:29,017
but we're gonna see it for generations and
generations on top.
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00:14:29,383 --> 00:14:31,695
So we're gonna talk about plastic all this
week,
290
00:14:31,695 --> 00:14:35,438
and we're really gonna be focusing in next
episode on you know,
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00:14:35,438 --> 00:14:40,612
following an ordinary source of plastic
that you wouldn't necessarily think about,
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00:14:40,612 --> 00:14:44,034
and that's microfibers that Anya talked
about on your on her interview yesterday.
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00:14:44,034 --> 00:14:47,577
We're gonna go from the washing machine
all the way into the ocean
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00:14:47,577 --> 00:14:50,639
on tomorrow's episode. So don't miss that
episode.
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00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:52,420
So if you want to, if you don't want to
miss it,
296
00:14:52,420 --> 00:14:54,372
just hit that follow button if you haven't
done already.
297
00:14:54,372 --> 00:14:55,953
It'll be right in your feed tomorrow
morning.
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00:14:56,295 --> 00:14:57,295
But I want to thank you so much.
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00:14:57,266 --> 00:14:58,266
That's the end of this episode.
300
00:14:58,177 --> 00:14:59,608
If you have any questions or comments,
301
00:14:59,608 --> 00:15:02,571
if you're listening to this on Spotify
that allows you to have comments,
302
00:15:02,571 --> 00:15:05,514
God, I wish podcasting platforms would
allow more comments.
303
00:15:05,514 --> 00:15:08,217
~ please, you know, hit me up with a
comment.
304
00:15:08,217 --> 00:15:10,579
I'd love to be able to hear what you have
to say because this is the beginning
305
00:15:10,579 --> 00:15:12,952
of a conversation and I want to hear what
you have to say.
306
00:15:12,952 --> 00:15:16,656
Do you know more about this this type of
product or plastic eating bacteria that
307
00:15:16,656 --> 00:15:18,067
you might have some more insights on?
308
00:15:18,067 --> 00:15:19,067
Let me know.
309
00:15:19,072 --> 00:15:24,479
Hit me up either on Spotify comments or
you can ~ hit me up on a DM Instagram,
310
00:15:24,479 --> 00:15:27,633
TikTok, Facebook, wherever you see me,
311
00:15:27,633 --> 00:15:30,206
or even LinkedIn, actually, probably the
best way to get a hold of me.
312
00:15:30,206 --> 00:15:32,140
But I want to thank you. That's it for
today's episode.
313
00:15:32,140 --> 00:15:34,561
I want thank you so much for joining me on
today's episode of the How
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00:15:34,561 --> 00:15:36,263
to Protect the Ocean Podcast. Have a great
day.
315
00:15:36,263 --> 00:15:38,226
We'll talk to you tomorrow and happy
conservation.
