The Cod Came Back: What a Fishery Collapse Teaches Us About Overfishing

1
00:00:00,049 --> 00:00:02,683
So the story that I've been told
goes a little bit like this.

2
00:00:03,125 --> 00:00:06,561
The first Europeans to reach
Newfoundland could lower a basket

3
00:00:06,563 --> 00:00:10,407
weighted with stones into the sea
and pull it back up full of cod.

4
00:00:10,781 --> 00:00:14,664
Now, five centuries later, there were so
few cod left that the government of Canada

5
00:00:14,667 --> 00:00:17,353
shut down the entire fishery overnight.

6
00:00:17,545 --> 00:00:20,995
It became one of the largest layoffs
in the country's history, and this

7
00:00:20,996 --> 00:00:25,445
is the story of how it happened
and how slowly the cod came back.

8
00:00:25,738 --> 00:00:27,675
That's what we're gonna talk
about on today's episode of the

9
00:00:27,675 --> 00:00:28,913
How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

10
00:00:29,146 --> 00:00:32,940
I am your host, Andrew Lewin, here
to talk to you about everything

11
00:00:32,940 --> 00:00:36,271
that has to do with ocean news,
ocean science, ocean conservation.

12
00:00:36,271 --> 00:00:38,039
I'm a marine biologist
and science communicator.

13
00:00:38,248 --> 00:00:43,041
This is what I love to do, and
I'm now going to be on YouTube.

14
00:00:43,227 --> 00:00:46,252
So check this out on YouTube if you
wanna watch some cool graphics or

15
00:00:46,253 --> 00:00:47,555
anything like that that I put up.

16
00:00:47,811 --> 00:00:51,690
We've got four episodes coming up,
solo episodes based off of sustainable

17
00:00:51,691 --> 00:00:54,320
seafood, which is, the foundation today.

18
00:00:54,500 --> 00:00:57,115
We're gonna talk about what
the problem really is and, the

19
00:00:57,116 --> 00:00:58,850
words you need to understand it.

20
00:00:58,850 --> 00:01:03,934
We talked to Dr. David, Shiffman, who
is the two-time author, he came on

21
00:01:03,934 --> 00:01:07,333
the podcast to talk about his book,
Why Sustainable Seafood Matters, which

22
00:01:07,343 --> 00:01:11,117
goes off his last book, Why Sharks
Matter, which is his handle on Twitter.

23
00:01:11,316 --> 00:01:12,321
It's a really great book.

24
00:01:12,321 --> 00:01:13,553
Dave is a good friend of mine.

25
00:01:13,817 --> 00:01:18,891
so if you want to pre-order it, you can do
so by going to the link in the show notes.

26
00:01:19,045 --> 00:01:21,067
You can check that out for yourself.

27
00:01:21,294 --> 00:01:23,520
One thing that I find with
sustainable seafood, it's

28
00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:24,701
always a difficult thing to do.

29
00:01:24,758 --> 00:01:29,427
it's a difficult thing to wrap your
head around when you start to look

30
00:01:29,451 --> 00:01:34,053
at, "How am I going to do this?" Like,
how am I gonna eat it sustainably?

31
00:01:34,206 --> 00:01:37,395
Like, how can I make sure
that the choices I make work?

32
00:01:37,873 --> 00:01:41,856
And that's a very difficult thing to
do because, sometimes, you wonder if

33
00:01:41,857 --> 00:01:44,691
it's even worth it because you see
headlines like, "The oceans will empty

34
00:01:44,692 --> 00:01:49,560
by 2048," or, "90% of the fish stocks
are gone." So you stand at the seafood,

35
00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:51,029
counter like, just kind of frozen.

36
00:01:51,029 --> 00:01:55,559
What am I gonna do?" Is there anything
okay to eat or is it already too late?

37
00:01:55,561 --> 00:01:58,683
And sometimes when you ask the person
behind the counter, it could be, a

38
00:01:58,683 --> 00:02:03,182
young person, teenager, part-time
job who's just like, "I have no idea.

39
00:02:03,186 --> 00:02:04,525
I don't know where this food came from.

40
00:02:04,525 --> 00:02:05,459
I don't know how it was caught.

41
00:02:05,509 --> 00:02:08,176
But there are apps to help you, So
this week we're gonna talk about

42
00:02:08,186 --> 00:02:10,088
all that stuff to get you unstuck.

43
00:02:10,362 --> 00:02:13,789
And today we're gonna start with
what's really going on, especially

44
00:02:13,797 --> 00:02:18,389
one of the most covered an iconic
fisheries that is probably out there,

45
00:02:18,391 --> 00:02:20,098
and that's the Canadian cod fishery.

46
00:02:20,098 --> 00:02:25,183
it's a really interesting story, ups
and downs, and we're kind of back on the

47
00:02:25,211 --> 00:02:31,073
up a little bit, but it's not something
that, we really get to know all the time.

48
00:02:31,547 --> 00:02:32,801
But, we're gonna talk about that.

49
00:02:32,801 --> 00:02:35,245
'Cause, like, the thing is, we
don't talk about overfishing enough.

50
00:02:35,299 --> 00:02:37,323
When you ask people, "What are the
biggest threats to ocean life?"

51
00:02:37,324 --> 00:02:41,080
A lot of people will say climate change
or plastic pollution or oil spills.

52
00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:42,801
And to be honest, those are threats.

53
00:02:42,803 --> 00:02:44,137
Those are key threats to the ocean.

54
00:02:44,139 --> 00:02:46,188
But overfishing is one of those.

55
00:02:46,451 --> 00:02:51,766
and that's something that is really big
because it's taking away biodiversity.

56
00:02:51,853 --> 00:02:55,430
And according to the last review, global
review of biodiversity that was ever

57
00:02:55,432 --> 00:02:58,424
done, it's, like, the largest one,
they called it fishing was the thing

58
00:02:58,424 --> 00:03:01,543
that was the scariest thing to oceans.

59
00:03:01,897 --> 00:03:07,983
In 2019, a global science body named
IPB- IPBES concluded that for marine

60
00:03:07,983 --> 00:03:12,289
ecosystems, direct exploitation
of organisms, mainly fishing, has

61
00:03:12,299 --> 00:03:14,574
had the largest relative impact.

62
00:03:15,012 --> 00:03:19,147
And that covers three things: taking
too many fish, which is overfishing,

63
00:03:19,743 --> 00:03:22,811
catching the wrong animals by
accident, which is bycatch, and

64
00:03:22,811 --> 00:03:24,854
damaging habitat with fishing gear.

65
00:03:25,296 --> 00:03:29,507
And this episode is the first one, the
taking too many fish, and the next two

66
00:03:29,507 --> 00:03:33,545
episodes in the series, like this week,
we're gonna cover the other two, which

67
00:03:33,545 --> 00:03:37,402
is bycatch and then gear that could
be harming, important fish habitat.

68
00:03:37,826 --> 00:03:41,789
So, the important thing here is I want
you, if you wanna eat seafood, I want

69
00:03:41,791 --> 00:03:46,167
you to keep eating seafood without that
guilty conscience, knowing that we know

70
00:03:46,186 --> 00:03:49,381
that it's fixable, One of the things
that you can do is you can pre-order

71
00:03:49,381 --> 00:03:54,411
that book by David Shiffman and make sure
you understand what is good, what's not.

72
00:03:54,639 --> 00:03:58,504
but also look at these apps that
we have, and we'll talk about

73
00:03:58,504 --> 00:04:01,257
that at the end of this episode of
course, and throughout the week.

74
00:04:01,700 --> 00:04:05,682
But let's talk about the Canadian
cod, 'cause for centuries the Grand

75
00:04:05,693 --> 00:04:09,375
Banks off Newfoundland held one of
the richest fish populations on Earth.

76
00:04:09,643 --> 00:04:14,307
Indigenous peoples fished there long
before Europeans arrived, and when

77
00:04:14,309 --> 00:04:18,388
European explorers reached those
waters in the late 1400s, the story

78
00:04:18,388 --> 00:04:22,710
they brought home was that the cod
were so thick you could lower a basket

79
00:04:22,750 --> 00:04:27,049
into the water and haul it up full
of the wonderful, wonderful fish.

80
00:04:27,633 --> 00:04:31,443
That abundance helped draw European
powers across the Atlantic.

81
00:04:31,901 --> 00:04:37,342
Cod fed the communities, built towns, and
filled export ships for nearly 500 years.

82
00:04:37,827 --> 00:04:39,372
Then the technology changed.

83
00:04:39,380 --> 00:04:43,709
Bigger boats, bigger nets, factory
trawlers that could fish 24/7.

84
00:04:44,235 --> 00:04:47,974
And the thing is, people believed
that the ocean was so big that

85
00:04:47,974 --> 00:04:49,876
it would never empty of the fish.

86
00:04:50,401 --> 00:04:51,985
And there were some warning signs.

87
00:04:52,293 --> 00:04:55,639
Some scientists and inshore fishers
raised the alarm, but the catches just

88
00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,877
kept coming, and people assumed that if
we just took a little too much, the fish

89
00:04:59,878 --> 00:05:01,678
would just bounce back But they didn't.

90
00:05:02,149 --> 00:05:05,995
So many adult cod were removed that there
weren't enough left to replace themselves.

91
00:05:06,581 --> 00:05:10,002
On July 2nd, 1992 was a
dark, dark day in Canada.

92
00:05:10,252 --> 00:05:13,063
Canada closed the northern
cod fishery, like, overnight.

93
00:05:13,376 --> 00:05:16,819
About 30,000 people in Newfoundland
and Labrador lost their jobs, roughly

94
00:05:16,823 --> 00:05:18,881
12% of the province's workforce.

95
00:05:19,259 --> 00:05:22,528
It was the largest single
layoff in Canadian history.

96
00:05:22,753 --> 00:05:26,158
Within 10 years, the province
had lost about 10% of its

97
00:05:26,165 --> 00:05:30,165
population, 'cause you have to
understand how Newfoundland worked.

98
00:05:30,462 --> 00:05:31,872
They love to fish.

99
00:05:31,896 --> 00:05:33,044
They love their island.

100
00:05:33,044 --> 00:05:36,068
There is this thing, if you have
never met someone from Newfoundland,

101
00:05:36,295 --> 00:05:40,725
they have this pride of their
province, of their island, The Rock.

102
00:05:41,074 --> 00:05:42,236
They don't wanna leave it.

103
00:05:42,584 --> 00:05:43,351
They wanna stay there.

104
00:05:43,351 --> 00:05:43,928
And I don't blame them.

105
00:05:43,942 --> 00:05:45,452
Like, let's be honest,
it's a beautiful place.

106
00:05:45,683 --> 00:05:46,975
windy, it's cold at times, sure.

107
00:05:47,196 --> 00:05:48,956
It's not for the weak, that's for sure.

108
00:05:48,957 --> 00:05:51,589
You need to really understand
weather when you're there.

109
00:05:51,815 --> 00:05:53,848
But they love going out and fish.

110
00:05:53,874 --> 00:05:56,346
They would do it generation
after generation after

111
00:05:56,347 --> 00:05:58,089
generation after generation.

112
00:05:58,595 --> 00:06:04,427
And then when it stopped overnight, I
remember just, like, watching on TV and

113
00:06:04,427 --> 00:06:07,181
people storming the politician's offices.

114
00:06:07,419 --> 00:06:10,340
He had to barricade himself in
his office because they were gonna

115
00:06:10,363 --> 00:06:11,320
come, they were gonna hurt him.

116
00:06:11,783 --> 00:06:13,525
Because they had nothing else.

117
00:06:13,864 --> 00:06:16,180
The only other thing that
was there was oil and gas.

118
00:06:16,209 --> 00:06:17,605
Oil and gas across Canada.

119
00:06:17,605 --> 00:06:20,146
I remember talking to somebody,
like, 10 years later, I was at a

120
00:06:20,147 --> 00:06:22,434
training for safety for offshore.

121
00:06:22,770 --> 00:06:24,274
This person was from Newfoundland.

122
00:06:24,276 --> 00:06:27,626
He wanted to come back to Newfoundland
because he was going to Fort

123
00:06:27,627 --> 00:06:30,984
McMurray for the tar sands and
the oil and gas business there.

124
00:06:31,428 --> 00:06:32,085
Hated it.

125
00:06:32,282 --> 00:06:33,434
Absolutely hated it.

126
00:06:33,476 --> 00:06:36,704
Again, that's a rough time to go
up to Fort Mac during those times.

127
00:06:36,947 --> 00:06:39,805
But he had to leave because
he had nothing else.

128
00:06:40,243 --> 00:06:43,393
So he was happy when the oil and
gas industry started to, like, kind

129
00:06:43,393 --> 00:06:46,453
of got a little bit bigger back in
Newfoundland, because he can come

130
00:06:46,453 --> 00:06:47,719
back to Newfoundland and live there.

131
00:06:48,162 --> 00:06:49,569
But the fishing is where it was.

132
00:06:49,587 --> 00:06:50,259
That was it.

133
00:06:50,272 --> 00:06:53,803
It was the fishing that kept everybody
there, it kept everybody happy

134
00:06:54,274 --> 00:06:58,220
And the moratorium that was put in
place in 1992 was supposed to be

135
00:06:58,221 --> 00:07:02,306
temporary, and it lasted 32 years.

136
00:07:02,881 --> 00:07:05,442
And, like, this is bigger
than just a fish story.

137
00:07:05,459 --> 00:07:06,824
It's a people story.

138
00:07:07,262 --> 00:07:11,057
When you start to look at things
you're losing in the ocean, the coastal

139
00:07:11,107 --> 00:07:16,345
communities that depend on the oceans lose
along with it, and that's a huge thing.

140
00:07:16,351 --> 00:07:20,740
When we talk about overfishing and we
talk about fisheries collapse, we often

141
00:07:20,747 --> 00:07:23,964
talk about, "Hey, the fish are the hero.
We want to protect the fish," which is

142
00:07:23,964 --> 00:07:29,008
true, but oftentimes it's the people like,
a lot of them are doing the overfishing.

143
00:07:29,008 --> 00:07:33,077
Well, maybe not them particularly, but the
fishers that are doing the overfishing,

144
00:07:33,341 --> 00:07:37,470
but it's also, like, the politicians
aren't really working for them.

145
00:07:37,470 --> 00:07:38,748
They're not trying to
help them in any way.

146
00:07:38,748 --> 00:07:41,803
Sometimes you have to make some really
rough decisions and tough decisions.

147
00:07:42,088 --> 00:07:46,307
But that's what happened, and we are
still stuck in this place now where we're

148
00:07:46,307 --> 00:07:48,415
starting to see something to come back.

149
00:07:48,894 --> 00:07:54,437
But when you look back at it, there were
three lessons that we learned from that

150
00:07:54,539 --> 00:07:57,859
time where the moratorium had to be put
in place and the loss of the codfish.

151
00:07:58,449 --> 00:07:59,557
You got to listen to the data.

152
00:07:59,558 --> 00:08:00,276
That's lesson one.

153
00:08:00,276 --> 00:08:03,708
Just listen to that data,
even when it's inconvenient.

154
00:08:04,036 --> 00:08:06,063
The government scientists
knew that this was going down.

155
00:08:06,073 --> 00:08:07,236
They were telling the politicians.

156
00:08:07,236 --> 00:08:10,306
The politicians were buckling to
the lobbyists who said, "Hey, we

157
00:08:10,307 --> 00:08:12,250
want to continue fishing," and
the politicians wanted the votes.

158
00:08:12,250 --> 00:08:14,583
They're like, "Yeah, let's continue
fishing." But there were also some

159
00:08:14,583 --> 00:08:17,362
scientists in DFO, in Fisheries
and Oceans in Canada, were like,

160
00:08:17,362 --> 00:08:19,116
"Hey, hey, hey, this is going down.

161
00:08:19,116 --> 00:08:23,123
It's been going down for a long
time." You have to listen to the data.

162
00:08:23,348 --> 00:08:26,256
The data shows everything, and
the analysis shows everything.

163
00:08:26,256 --> 00:08:31,654
DFO had and still has some of the greatest
fisheries biologists in the world.

164
00:08:32,168 --> 00:08:34,154
And you gotta listen to them
though, that's the thing.

165
00:08:34,615 --> 00:08:35,340
That's lesson one.

166
00:08:35,340 --> 00:08:39,264
Lesson two, harming the ocean
hurts the people who depend on it.

167
00:08:39,688 --> 00:08:44,720
Conservation and fisheries jobs are on
the exact same side, oftentimes pitted

168
00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:49,688
against each other, but it really is
trying to allow or making sure that

169
00:08:49,688 --> 00:08:54,337
people are, can fish for generations
and generations without harming it.

170
00:08:54,341 --> 00:08:55,318
Sustainable fishing.

171
00:08:55,865 --> 00:09:00,568
And lesson three, recovery can take
a very, very long time, and it's far

172
00:09:00,568 --> 00:09:03,707
cheaper to get it right the first
time than have to restore or have to

173
00:09:03,717 --> 00:09:06,522
wait until a population jumps back.

174
00:09:07,112 --> 00:09:08,355
' Cause, like, this is it, man.

175
00:09:08,421 --> 00:09:12,007
Like, the deal is, is that the
cod just never really jumped

176
00:09:12,018 --> 00:09:13,343
back like we thought it would.

177
00:09:13,804 --> 00:09:16,108
And there are a lot of other
things that are at play here.

178
00:09:16,165 --> 00:09:18,601
We took away a lot of the
adults, so it was really

179
00:09:18,602 --> 00:09:19,840
difficult for them to come back.

180
00:09:20,273 --> 00:09:22,548
But also they could've
moved, they could've shifted.

181
00:09:22,951 --> 00:09:27,927
Climate change, like, grew in terms of
its consequences over those 30 years.

182
00:09:28,070 --> 00:09:30,418
So how do we know where
these animals have gone?

183
00:09:30,790 --> 00:09:32,739
And how do we know that
this is the population?

184
00:09:32,750 --> 00:09:33,513
Maybe they changed.

185
00:09:33,513 --> 00:09:35,164
Maybe they'll never be
as big as they were.

186
00:09:35,375 --> 00:09:35,869
Who knows?

187
00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:36,957
We still don't know.

188
00:09:37,325 --> 00:09:41,474
There's some confusion around everything
that happens here, Here's where

189
00:09:41,476 --> 00:09:43,022
most of the confusion comes from.

190
00:09:43,213 --> 00:09:46,351
There are two words that sound
alike and mean very different

191
00:09:46,353 --> 00:09:48,206
things, and I want to go over that.

192
00:09:48,310 --> 00:09:50,272
The first word is overfishing.

193
00:09:50,697 --> 00:09:53,139
I want to define it 'cause
overfishing is an action.

194
00:09:53,518 --> 00:09:56,065
We're catching fish faster
than the population can replace

195
00:09:56,065 --> 00:09:57,056
themselves, like right now.

196
00:09:57,073 --> 00:09:59,271
Overfishing is a state
that's happening right now.

197
00:09:59,705 --> 00:10:02,147
Overfished is a state
that's already happened.

198
00:10:02,157 --> 00:10:04,315
The population is already too small.

199
00:10:04,662 --> 00:10:05,839
And then you have four combinations.

200
00:10:05,839 --> 00:10:06,895
And they'll tell you everything.

201
00:10:07,415 --> 00:10:10,016
Overfishing but not yet overfished.

202
00:10:10,139 --> 00:10:11,570
We're taking too many.

203
00:10:11,946 --> 00:10:13,759
The population is still healthy.

204
00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,582
Ease off now, and it'll recover fast.

205
00:10:17,039 --> 00:10:21,191
Overfished but no overfishing,
so the damage is done.

206
00:10:21,425 --> 00:10:24,561
The pressure has been lifted because
we're not gonna fish anymore, or we're

207
00:10:24,561 --> 00:10:27,657
not gonna fish as much as anymore,
and it's probably gonna recover.

208
00:10:28,116 --> 00:10:31,566
Overfished and overfishing,
the worst case.

209
00:10:32,027 --> 00:10:36,081
That's a problem that's making it worse,
Not only are they small, but you're

210
00:10:36,088 --> 00:10:39,030
overfishing, so you can't replace itself,
so they're gonna get even smaller.

211
00:10:39,495 --> 00:10:42,887
And if you have neither, that's the
goal, you wanna make sure that you're

212
00:10:42,889 --> 00:10:44,851
not overfishing, or it's not overfished.

213
00:10:45,368 --> 00:10:47,953
And the word depleted gets
used differently in different

214
00:10:47,953 --> 00:10:51,999
places, but it generally means
overfished or on the way there,

215
00:10:52,124 --> 00:10:56,384
so that's like, a third term that
people don't really understand, so

216
00:10:56,495 --> 00:11:00,492
depleted gets used differently in
different places, but it generally

217
00:11:00,493 --> 00:11:02,918
means overfished or on the way there.

218
00:11:03,215 --> 00:11:07,803
Fully fished, which the Fisheries and
Agriculture Organization, FAO, now calls

219
00:11:07,803 --> 00:11:12,627
its maximally sustainably fished, this is
the term that causes most of the trouble.

220
00:11:12,648 --> 00:11:15,451
It sounds pretty bad, but
it's actually the target.

221
00:11:15,474 --> 00:11:19,307
The fishery's producing as much
food and as many jobs as it can

222
00:11:19,307 --> 00:11:20,967
without shrinking the population.

223
00:11:21,148 --> 00:11:25,655
So fully fished means we are doing the
right thing here, which makes it sound

224
00:11:25,655 --> 00:11:29,077
really confusing 'cause fully fished
just doesn't sound right in my opinion.

225
00:11:29,516 --> 00:11:30,546
I have a little story for you.

226
00:11:30,546 --> 00:11:31,554
It's a recent story.

227
00:11:31,802 --> 00:11:36,622
In June 2025, what I mentioned before,
FAO, released its detailed global

228
00:11:36,622 --> 00:11:38,467
assessment on fish stocks ever.

229
00:11:38,468 --> 00:11:39,476
It's the most detailed.

230
00:11:39,803 --> 00:11:40,958
Everything was huge on there.

231
00:11:41,391 --> 00:11:45,439
More than 650 experts from
over 90 countries looked at

232
00:11:45,446 --> 00:11:48,950
2,570 individual fish stocks.

233
00:11:49,388 --> 00:11:53,571
They found that 35.5% of the stocks
were overfished, that means they're

234
00:11:53,572 --> 00:11:55,069
small, the population is small.

235
00:11:55,610 --> 00:11:57,992
That's more than a third of all fisheries.

236
00:11:58,556 --> 00:11:59,373
that's a problem.

237
00:11:59,609 --> 00:12:00,593
That's a real problem.

238
00:12:00,988 --> 00:12:06,034
They also found that 64.5% are fished
within sustainable levels, and because

239
00:12:06,036 --> 00:12:12,093
the best-managed stocks tend to be the
big ones, 77.2% of all the fish actually

240
00:12:12,093 --> 00:12:14,477
landed came from sustainable stocks.

241
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,000
I bet you you didn't know that.

242
00:12:16,514 --> 00:12:18,570
Now, here's the trick you'll see online.

243
00:12:19,140 --> 00:12:22,901
Someone takes the overfished stocks
and adds them to the stocks fished at

244
00:12:22,901 --> 00:12:26,868
the sustainable maximum, and announces
that more than 90% of the world's fish

245
00:12:26,868 --> 00:12:29,452
stocks are overfished or fully fished.

246
00:12:29,879 --> 00:12:32,027
Technically, the arithmetic works.

247
00:12:32,350 --> 00:12:36,432
The meaning is badly misleading
because one of those categories is the

248
00:12:36,433 --> 00:12:38,097
problem and the other one is the goal.

249
00:12:38,107 --> 00:12:41,460
Fully fished is the goal,
overfished is the problem.

250
00:12:42,016 --> 00:12:44,878
When you think of a third of the
stocks that are overfished, that's bad.

251
00:12:44,891 --> 00:12:48,388
we know that, I don't need
to exaggerate that number.

252
00:12:48,774 --> 00:12:50,727
A third of the stocks are overfished.

253
00:12:50,727 --> 00:12:52,056
The population is small.

254
00:12:52,495 --> 00:12:55,783
And when people tend to exaggerate it,
it makes it like, a problem harder to

255
00:12:55,784 --> 00:12:59,617
solve because it makes the problem sound
hopeless, and that's, we don't need that.

256
00:12:59,723 --> 00:13:02,543
When you have the opposite,
two-thirds of the stocks are fully

257
00:13:02,543 --> 00:13:05,784
fished, meaning they're sustainably
managed, that's not bad, Like, you

258
00:13:05,784 --> 00:13:09,231
gotta be careful that a statistic
can make you feel like giving up.

259
00:13:09,744 --> 00:13:13,534
And I think a lot of times when we
have this overfishing problem, that can

260
00:13:13,591 --> 00:13:17,517
definitely be a problem, But when we
look at, like, how the categories were

261
00:13:17,524 --> 00:13:19,939
combined, makes a little bit better sense.

262
00:13:20,289 --> 00:13:23,011
And I wanna talk about a friend of
mine, Angelo Villagomez, who's a

263
00:13:23,012 --> 00:13:26,483
friend of the show, and he has a
line that I love: "If you kill fewer

264
00:13:26,483 --> 00:13:31,363
fish, more fish will be alive." And
that's fishery science explained to a

265
00:13:31,363 --> 00:13:33,346
10-year-old, and it's exactly right.

266
00:13:33,742 --> 00:13:37,617
In practice, a well-managed fishery
has four things: a limit on the total

267
00:13:37,618 --> 00:13:43,112
catch set by scientists, rules to reduce
bycatch, especially of endangered species,

268
00:13:43,492 --> 00:13:45,725
and rules to limit damage to habitat.

269
00:13:46,207 --> 00:13:51,877
Data behind all of it, how many fish are
there, how long do they live, how fast do

270
00:13:51,878 --> 00:13:53,729
they grow, and how often do they breed?

271
00:13:54,264 --> 00:13:57,658
And one more ingredient people tend
to forget, the fishers at the table,

272
00:13:58,175 --> 00:13:59,932
People follow rules they help shape.

273
00:14:00,237 --> 00:14:03,562
And in the US, regional
councils that include fishers

274
00:14:03,715 --> 00:14:05,113
help set those catch limits.

275
00:14:05,243 --> 00:14:08,683
When fishers see that data and the
reasoning, they're far more likely

276
00:14:08,683 --> 00:14:11,801
to accept a cut today so that
they can keep fishing tomorrow.

277
00:14:12,287 --> 00:14:13,643
Things change over time.

278
00:14:14,028 --> 00:14:14,950
I mean, fishers know that.

279
00:14:14,952 --> 00:14:16,093
Fishing communities know that.

280
00:14:16,627 --> 00:14:19,172
Whether they're indigenous or
non-indigenous, things change.

281
00:14:19,580 --> 00:14:22,331
Things can get worse in the ocean, things
can get better in the ocean, depending

282
00:14:22,332 --> 00:14:26,992
on where you are, And so having rights
holders and stakeholders at the table

283
00:14:27,423 --> 00:14:32,805
talking to each other, battling it out
at some times, in a respectful way, that

284
00:14:32,805 --> 00:14:34,948
makes things better in the long run.

285
00:14:34,985 --> 00:14:38,639
It's harder to do and it takes
longer, but it helps in the long run.

286
00:14:38,674 --> 00:14:41,977
And not every country has the
money for full stock assessment,

287
00:14:41,977 --> 00:14:43,162
so the data's not always there.

288
00:14:43,162 --> 00:14:47,111
Scientists have developed data-limited
methods for those places, so lack

289
00:14:47,112 --> 00:14:50,175
of funding doesn't have to mean
lack of management, which is great.

290
00:14:50,590 --> 00:14:54,827
Now, in the United States, 51 fish
stocks have been rebuilt since 2000.

291
00:14:55,298 --> 00:14:59,478
Pacific bluefin tuna was rebuilt a
full decade ahead of schedule in 2024,

292
00:14:59,811 --> 00:15:03,775
which let the US fishers increase
their catch limit by 80% the next year.

293
00:15:04,165 --> 00:15:07,311
Globally, the regions with strong
management, like the Northeast

294
00:15:07,319 --> 00:15:10,945
Pacific, have more than 90% of the
stocks fully fished sustainably.

295
00:15:11,485 --> 00:15:14,022
Now I wanna go back to the
beginning of this episode where

296
00:15:14,022 --> 00:15:15,422
I talked about the codfish.

297
00:15:15,685 --> 00:15:20,675
In 2024, after 32 years, Canada
lifted the northern cod moratorium and

298
00:15:20,675 --> 00:15:25,886
reopened a commercial fishery with a
cautious catch limit of 18,000 tons.

299
00:15:26,108 --> 00:15:32,520
Now, I must say, this was highly contested
by scientists, and the reason why it was,

300
00:15:32,739 --> 00:15:35,488
was because their population was stagnant.

301
00:15:35,930 --> 00:15:38,358
So the population wasn't
predicted to grow.

302
00:15:38,359 --> 00:15:43,687
It was predicted to stay the same or go
lower, and the government opened it up to,

303
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:48,321
commercial fishing, industrial fishing,
just a little further offshore before

304
00:15:48,321 --> 00:15:50,184
it was opened up to artisanal fishers.

305
00:15:50,672 --> 00:15:54,381
Now, there were a lot of scientists,
NGOs, and so forth, who were not too

306
00:15:54,383 --> 00:15:59,276
happy with this type of result, and
this was purely done by the minister,

307
00:15:59,276 --> 00:16:02,261
the DFO minister, the Department
of Fisheries and Oceans ministers.

308
00:16:02,690 --> 00:16:03,944
So scientists are gonna watch.

309
00:16:03,944 --> 00:16:04,870
They're gonna keep watching.

310
00:16:04,870 --> 00:16:08,845
And in 2005, the limit rose to
38,000 tons, which was contested.

311
00:16:09,141 --> 00:16:14,608
And for 2026, it rose again to 59,000
tons, again contested, after the latest

312
00:16:14,608 --> 00:16:19,159
assessment placed the stock in the healthy
zone for the first time since 1992.

313
00:16:19,599 --> 00:16:23,505
A whole generation of Newfoundlanders
grew up never seeing a real cod fishery,

314
00:16:23,865 --> 00:16:25,364
and their kids may actually see this.

315
00:16:25,367 --> 00:16:28,879
So it is coming back, but we
still have to be very cautious.

316
00:16:28,883 --> 00:16:31,949
We still have to remember that
if we get a little too, like,

317
00:16:31,979 --> 00:16:35,752
trigger-happy those codfish can
go back to where they were before.

318
00:16:36,276 --> 00:16:40,445
And so as this quota's rising and
people are worried, you gotta remember

319
00:16:40,449 --> 00:16:43,377
we are still way below the stock size.

320
00:16:43,607 --> 00:16:45,353
And the recovery is still happening.

321
00:16:45,354 --> 00:16:49,097
If we kind of push the limits too
much, that recovery's gonna take

322
00:16:49,112 --> 00:16:52,566
longer, But the lesson that we're
learning today is still the same one

323
00:16:52,573 --> 00:16:54,412
from the collapsed and turned around.

324
00:16:54,740 --> 00:16:57,440
Listen to the data and
the ocean gives back.

325
00:16:57,886 --> 00:17:00,863
I guess the cautious thing is, is
try not to open it too quickly,

326
00:17:01,395 --> 00:17:02,737
Now, I want you to do me a favor.

327
00:17:02,769 --> 00:17:05,181
I want you to pick one
fish you eat the most.

328
00:17:05,606 --> 00:17:07,528
Look up that stock status this week.

329
00:17:07,734 --> 00:17:08,323
Where do you look?

330
00:17:08,325 --> 00:17:12,621
You can look at a seafood guide, so
Seafood Watch or Marine Stewardship

331
00:17:12,662 --> 00:17:14,209
Council or Ocean Wise app.

332
00:17:14,438 --> 00:17:17,587
Any of those you can look through,
and they have data on all of it,

333
00:17:18,051 --> 00:17:21,117
or you can look at your National
Fisheries Agency stock, status, page.

334
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,599
If you're in Canada, you can look at
Oceanic Canada to get a little bit

335
00:17:24,601 --> 00:17:28,264
of a, NGO feel to what's happening
with a lot of the fisheries.

336
00:17:28,284 --> 00:17:31,990
They do have a fishery assessment, stock
assessment every year looking at what

337
00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:35,889
fisheries have data, what don't, what
could be considered well-managed, all

338
00:17:35,890 --> 00:17:37,316
that kind of stuff, and it's really great.

339
00:17:37,530 --> 00:17:41,479
I highly recommend that you go take a look
at that, I want you to ask a few questions

340
00:17:41,479 --> 00:17:43,278
that you learned from this episode today.

341
00:17:43,686 --> 00:17:44,709
Is it overfished?

342
00:17:45,072 --> 00:17:46,679
is overfishing still happening?

343
00:17:46,883 --> 00:17:48,899
And is it fished at a sustainable level?

344
00:17:49,233 --> 00:17:52,537
And I think once you know those
three words, the depleted,

345
00:17:52,550 --> 00:17:56,365
overfishing, overfished, you can
read any fish headline the way a

346
00:17:56,365 --> 00:17:57,863
scientist does, which is important.

347
00:17:58,327 --> 00:18:01,976
A lot of times these terms can be
difficult, and then once you understand

348
00:18:01,976 --> 00:18:04,936
it, then you get what's happening and
what people are telling each other.

349
00:18:05,418 --> 00:18:07,127
Today was about how many fish we take.

350
00:18:07,199 --> 00:18:11,720
Tomorrow, the next episode, is gonna
be about what else ends up in the net.

351
00:18:11,913 --> 00:18:15,673
Whales, turtles, dolphins, and
the clever fixes to set them free.

352
00:18:16,130 --> 00:18:19,612
Now, just think about this, close
on a small wharf in Newfoundland

353
00:18:19,613 --> 00:18:24,682
in summer, a boat comes in, A crew
unloads cod, a fish their grandparents

354
00:18:24,684 --> 00:18:26,762
caught and their parents never could.

355
00:18:27,127 --> 00:18:28,060
So think about that.

356
00:18:28,097 --> 00:18:32,646
There is a recovery here that's really
great, and the ocean can recover when

357
00:18:32,647 --> 00:18:37,240
we let the scientists set the limits,
and the, the managers to understand what

358
00:18:37,242 --> 00:18:39,547
those limits mean, and the cod are proof.

359
00:18:39,729 --> 00:18:40,973
We're not out of the woods yet.

360
00:18:41,295 --> 00:18:43,347
This is not as, a full-on success story.

361
00:18:43,347 --> 00:18:46,978
We still have to be cautious, and I feel
like we're kind of pushing it a little too

362
00:18:46,983 --> 00:18:51,891
much with increasing the cod limits, and
I think we're getting pressured by other

363
00:18:51,908 --> 00:18:54,675
outside factors that are affecting this.

364
00:18:54,969 --> 00:19:00,185
But we are seeing a recovery, and that's
important because management happens.

365
00:19:00,233 --> 00:19:03,547
Understanding how the ocean
works, understanding how climate

366
00:19:03,548 --> 00:19:05,858
change is affecting and other
things are affecting it along with

367
00:19:05,860 --> 00:19:08,088
it, that helps in the recovery.

368
00:19:08,088 --> 00:19:08,867
It all helps.

369
00:19:09,141 --> 00:19:10,113
Data's important.

370
00:19:10,309 --> 00:19:11,363
Listening to the data is important.

371
00:19:11,385 --> 00:19:14,330
Listening to the scientists is important,
and that's our episode for today,

372
00:19:14,333 --> 00:19:17,959
'cause you've been listening to this
scientist talk about cod fishery and

373
00:19:17,959 --> 00:19:21,844
sustainable seafood, all about, that's
what we're talking all about this week.

374
00:19:21,992 --> 00:19:25,338
So don't forget to follow,
subscribe, whatever you need to

375
00:19:25,339 --> 00:19:27,015
do on your favorite podcast app.

376
00:19:27,044 --> 00:19:29,352
If you're on Spotify,
there's a comment, section.

377
00:19:29,352 --> 00:19:30,467
You can hit me up with a comment.

378
00:19:30,467 --> 00:19:31,312
I'd love to hear from you.

379
00:19:31,313 --> 00:19:33,306
I usually get a notification
when that comment hits.

380
00:19:33,306 --> 00:19:35,028
I'll try and answer back
as soon as possible.

381
00:19:35,154 --> 00:19:38,345
And of course, if you're watching this
on YouTube, you can comment down below.

382
00:19:38,523 --> 00:19:40,274
All the links are in
the show notes as well.

383
00:19:40,401 --> 00:19:43,132
So I want to thank you so much for
joining me on today's episode of the

384
00:19:43,132 --> 00:19:44,370
How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

385
00:19:44,391 --> 00:19:45,392
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

386
00:19:45,590 --> 00:19:46,226
Have a great day.

387
00:19:46,227 --> 00:19:48,287
We'll talk to you next time,
and happy conservation.