How to Choose Sustainable Seafood

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Eating seafood the right way is a journey.

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I'm gonna tell you that.

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It is not easy to be able to choose
seafood that is sustainable in

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an easy fashion, especially with
a lot of confusion that's been

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put out in the world these days.

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You have documentaries like Seaspiracy,
which is, full of misinformation,

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and extreme kinda looks at saying we
have to stop eating fish altogether.

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And so it's very difficult to kinda,
like, go to the grocery store or the

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supermarket and be like, "Hey, like,
what fish should I eat?" When the person

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behind the counter doesn't even know,
or sometimes often doesn't know, 'cause

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they're just, like, maybe a teenager
working behind the counter earning

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minimum wage just trying to get through
their day and, earn some extra cash,

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to, be able to buy stuff that they want.

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So it becomes a difficult process
and a very confusing process.

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And it's confusing because there are
so many different takes on, what you

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should eat, what you shouldn't eat,
and then what you should follow.

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Because there are systems in place.

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There are apps that make things easier.

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There are certification programs
which make things easier.

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The solutions are out there, but then
it gets kinda cluttered with, this

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certification does this, and this
certification takes payments, And it's

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very confusing to say what's right and
what's wrong, especially if all you're

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trying to do is eat seafood the right way.

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It's very easy to say, "You know what?

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Screw all this.

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I'm just gonna eat it the way I
wanna eat it," and that's what I,

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do, and I get it. I totally get it.
But there hasn't really been, like,

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a consistent, information that's come
out that said, "Hey, you know what?

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Here's the issue, and here's the
solution for this issue," until now.

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there is a book called "Why
Sustainable Seafood Matters"

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that's coming out in November.

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it's up for presale.

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It's by my good friend,
Dr. David Shiffman.

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he's decided to put out a book on this
based of his, last book tour of "Why

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Sharks Matter," because people kept
talking about, "Hey, you know what?

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Like, if sharks are being
overfished, how do we know?

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How can we help in terms of overfishing?"
And that question just kept coming up

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and coming up and coming up, and this
book is essentially the answers to those

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questions, not only for sharks, but also
for other different types of fisheries.

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He goes into history.

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He goes into the politics.

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He goes into, looking at a specific
issue and what's right, what's wrong,

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and also, like, the nuances about
it, because it's never a simple

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answer when it comes to fisheries.

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There's always more
that you can talk about.

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And today, I have David on the podcast
to talk about this subject, sustainable

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seafood, why you should get it, how
you can get it, and what to look out

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for when you're getting it and what
to believe and what not to believe.

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He backs it up with data.

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So he has his opinions.

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He has his statements.

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They're backed by evidence, and he tells
you where you can get that evidence

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if you wanna take a look for yourself.

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And I just think it's the
manual that you need to get.

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I just purchased my own book
just before this interview.

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it's pre-ordered, so you
can get that pre-order.

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The link is in the show notes.

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Here's the interview with Dr.
David Shiffman talking about

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why sustainable seafood matters.

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Enjoy, and I'll talk to you after.

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Welcome to the How to Protect
the Ocean podcast, David.

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I am so excited to have you on.

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Are you ready to talk
about sustainable seafood?

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I am always ready to talk about
sustainable seafood, Andrew,

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and thanks for having me.

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Excited to be back.

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It's so much fun to have you on, Dave.

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It's always fun, like,
you have a new book out.

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This is what we're gonna be talking about.

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Yeah.

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It's all about sustainable seafood.

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And, when you texted me, like, "Hey,
do you wanna talk about sustainable

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seafood?" I'm like- Yeah … "I've
been waiting for this." Perfect.

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I've been waiting for you to be ready
to do this, 'cause I know you've been

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writing this, for quite some time.

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This is your second book.

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And the first one was called Why
Sharks Matter, and this is called

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Why Sustainable Seafood Matters.

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And this conversation's gonna be
really on, the basics of what people

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should know about sustainable seafood.

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'Cause I'll be honest,
Dave, it's confusing, right?

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It gets confusing.

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When you go to the

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supermarket.

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Yes.

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So confusing.

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So I'm super excited.

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before we get started with all this,
I would just like you to remind…

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You've been on a number of times.

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Mm-hmm.

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Uh, but some people are new
to the podcast, they might

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be new to, who you are.

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So why don't you just let us
know who you are and what you do?

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Sure.

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So I'm Dr. David Shiffman.

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I am an interdisciplinary
marine conservation biologist

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and policy specialist.

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I live and work in the
Washington, D.C. area.

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I'm probably best known for
my work with sharks and my

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first book, Why Sharks Matter.

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Folks can also follow me on social
media @why sharksmatter, where I'm

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always happy to answer questions.

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And yeah, as you said, this new book is
called Why Sustainable Seafood Matters.

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I love this.

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So the first book was about,
your first love, sharks.

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Mm-hmm.

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Right?

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And it was all about, you've grown
up, wanting to be a shark scientist

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and shark ecologist, through that
time, you've been a part of the

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shark ecosystem for quite some time.

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you've talked about sustainable
seafood through sharks, but also,

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elsewhere, and you've worked in the
sustainable seafood area as well.

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Mm-hmm.

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But where did this idea
come from for this book?

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that's what I'm curious when you started
to say, "This is gonna be about seafood."

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Yeah.

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So the idea for my second book actually
came from the book tour for the first

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book, and I have traveled all around
the world, talking about sharks and

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ocean conservation and marine biology
as part of the book tour for Why Sharks

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Matter, which I organized, by myself.

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It's been to seven countries so far.

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I gave a talk in Antarctica.

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I got to do a dramatic reading for
penguins, as well as to talk to some

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of the scientists and tourists there.

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but I always include in my talks
plenty of time for audience Q&A.

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Mmm.

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And one of the most common questions
that came up was, "You said that

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the biggest threat to sharks is
unsustainable fishing practices.

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what do I do about that as a consumer?"
And I started talking about sustainable

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seafood and Seafood Watch and the Marine
Stewardship Council and all of that, and

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this question just kept happening over
and over and over and over again, and

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people kept saying, "Can you recommend
an easy-to-understand source that

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will explain more of the complicated
world of sustainable seafood to me?

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Because I would like to know more." And
the answer was there really isn't one.

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There's some very, very, very basic
stuff that doesn't really tell you that

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much, and then there's some very, very
complicated stuff that requires a PhD

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in fishery science to understand, and
there was sort of nothing in the middle.

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So I thought that I would try to fill
that space, and that is the goal of

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Why Sustainable Seafood Matters, is
it's to take the complicated world of,

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science-based fisheries management and
bycatch reduction technology and where

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does a marine protected area go and
stock assessment and all of that stuff,

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and turn it into, a way that someone
who cares about the ocean but is a

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little confused by all the 15 syllable
words, to be able to make informed

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choices when they're trying to figure
out what's for dinner for their family.

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First of all, thank you for doing
that and here's why I'm saying this.

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This is not just to kind of pander
because we're promoting your book.

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I'm having you on because I trust
the information that's in the book.

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I've read parts of the book.

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I've watched you talk
about this for a long time.

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and you bring a very, not only
scientific approach to it in your

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regular dealings, but you also bring
a very, pragmatic approach to it.

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and I think there's a lot of material out
there, whether it be in books, but also

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in documentaries, who are, taking one side
or another, and the extremes can really

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flip-flop back and forth, which makes
people question, is this actually working?

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Or it gives them like a false
sense of what they need to do-

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to move forward.

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Like I, you know, thinking
Seaspiracy, uh, we're not- Oh, my God.

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Yes … I don't wanna talk about it
because we've talked about it so many

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times, both you and I, on social media
and on podcasts and stuff like that.

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But, you know, that's like- I do, I

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do rant about Seaspiracy
in the book several times.

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Right.

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Um.

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Uh, deservingly so.

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But yeah, there's,

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this is a confusing topic even
without extremists promoting,

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in misinformation, like what
happened- Right … in Seaspiracy.

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Right.

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Um, so I tried to cut through the noise
and give people, not only explain to

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people, what the data says, but also
how do we know, and how you can find

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out for yourself, and how you can
use these tools that are out there.

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Yeah, no, completely agree.

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And even like, going from that to
watching sort of like a documentary

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that it has a lot of misinformation,
but then you go to the store and you

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try and do something, you're like,
"I wanna buy something sustainable.

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Like, I don't wanna buy something where
I'm contributing, so if I'm trying to

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make that effort, let's go do that."

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But then, you kinda mention in your
book, like, you go to say a, supermarket

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or wherever you get your seafood, in
the sign it says, like, " We support,"

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"sustainable fishing practices."
But then if you know more- And

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they have horrific products for sale.

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Like- Right

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the, the equivalent of, like, baby white
rhino is for sale there right under a sign

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that says, uh- … "We support sustainable
practices." So yeah, you gotta be careful.

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Unlike in the US, the word organic
has a legal definition, and there's

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regulatory processes behind it,
but the word sustainable does not.

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Yeah.

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Um, so you can say a lot of
things, and it may not correspond

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to anything on the water.

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If you say it's wild caught and it's
not, then you're breaking rules.

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But if you say- Yeah … it's sustainable
and leading sources disagree with

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you, you can just say, "Well, I
think it's sustainable." So I wanted

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to empower people to make informed
choices and to introduce them to some

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of the key players in this space and
some of the key issues in this space.

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and throughout, it's, not just my own
rants, but there's plenty of those if

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you'd like that in Why Sharks Matter.

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but also, I interview, some of the leading
players, including a celebrity chef,

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who works on sustainable seafood issues,
Chef Gregory Gourdet, if any of you are

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Top Chef super fans like we are- Right

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in my family.

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I quote reports and show
you how to find them.

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I quote nonprofits and
show you how to learn more.

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My goal is to convince you not only
that you can trust me, but here's how we

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know that- Yeah … and here's how you
can find out the same information for

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yourself and come to the same conclusion.

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and I like that not only did you do
interviews, but you've also worked for one

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of those certification- the, nonprofits,
which is the Marine Stewardship Council.

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You spent two years there.

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What did you learn from, like,
kind of working inside that?

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'Cause, like, MSC's a great program.

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I think it's something that people
can trust in, in terms, like, when

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I go to Costco, I look for that,
blue sticker, Or that blue label.

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They have had some controversies
in some of the things that

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they've supported in the past.

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What did you learn about
working in a place like that?

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'Cause I find that sometimes when
I'll be like, "Oh yeah, I like Marine

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Stewardship Council," but, like,
somebody will bring up, "Oh, but then

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they support this, so how could you…"
Again, it get, becomes complicated,

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but what did you learn about working
at MSC in those- Yeah … two years?

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So for those of you who don't know
what this is, it is one of the leading

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players in the sustainable seafood space.

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It is an eco label,
that can go on products.

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It's a little blue check mark
that looks like a fish that says,

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"MSC certified sustainable." You
have almost certainly seen this,

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even if you didn't recognize it.

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Costco almost exclusively sells
MSC certified products or Seafood

227
00:10:29,431 --> 00:10:31,303
Watch green, or yellow products.

228
00:10:31,348 --> 00:10:35,114
the McDonald's Filet-O-Fish sandwich,
the most commonly sold seafood

229
00:10:35,115 --> 00:10:38,764
item in the world, is MSC certified
and has that on the packaging.

230
00:10:39,024 --> 00:10:41,278
Walmart has a lot of MSC things.

231
00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:42,550
you've almost certainly seen this.

232
00:10:43,109 --> 00:10:43,430
Yeah.

233
00:10:43,430 --> 00:10:47,442
Um, and they have this very rigorous
science-based process that was

234
00:10:47,442 --> 00:10:50,683
co-generated with hundreds of
experts from around the world,

235
00:10:51,101 --> 00:10:52,595
that is the fishery standard.

236
00:10:52,610 --> 00:10:57,167
And if a fishery is assessed against
that standard and found that it

237
00:10:57,238 --> 00:11:01,201
meets the criteria, then that
fishery gets to put the label on its

238
00:11:01,211 --> 00:11:03,038
product and sell it as sustainable.

239
00:11:03,405 --> 00:11:07,457
When I worked there, I worked for
part of the research team, my project

240
00:11:07,458 --> 00:11:12,426
was specifically looking at what they
call ETP bycatch, which is endangered,

241
00:11:12,436 --> 00:11:13,831
threatened, and protected species.

242
00:11:13,841 --> 00:11:17,332
So a fisherman are trying to catch
a tuna, and they accidentally

243
00:11:17,332 --> 00:11:20,541
catch a sea turtle or a shark or an
albatross that was near the tuna.

244
00:11:20,919 --> 00:11:25,351
And they were looking at what
have fisheries that used to have

245
00:11:25,351 --> 00:11:29,598
a problem with this done to reduce
it, and what can we learn from that?

246
00:11:30,086 --> 00:11:31,545
and that was really cool because

247
00:11:31,599 --> 00:11:34,981
What I learned is it's a very
practical and data-driven place.

248
00:11:35,217 --> 00:11:39,013
They know that not everything will work
for everyone, but they also are very

249
00:11:39,013 --> 00:11:43,597
big on, sharing successes that, "Hey,
this was a problem and we fixed it.

250
00:11:43,633 --> 00:11:44,899
Everyone should know about this.

251
00:11:44,910 --> 00:11:46,418
You should try some version of this.

252
00:11:46,438 --> 00:11:47,152
Here's what we did.

253
00:11:47,156 --> 00:11:51,145
Here's how we did it." they are
not trying to gatekeep information.

254
00:11:51,196 --> 00:11:54,358
Every single Marine Stewardship
Council certified fishery has a

255
00:11:54,627 --> 00:11:58,834
public certification report that
anyone can download and read for free.

256
00:11:58,869 --> 00:12:01,026
I walk you through in the book
how to interpret those, 'cause

257
00:12:01,026 --> 00:12:02,352
they can be a little technical.

258
00:12:02,570 --> 00:12:06,498
But a typical one is hundreds of pages,
and it includes background about the

259
00:12:06,499 --> 00:12:09,857
biology of the species, about how
the fishery is managed, about local

260
00:12:09,857 --> 00:12:11,958
conservation issues, about local laws.

261
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:17,304
as well as the specific criteria,
scores for how that fishery did.

262
00:12:17,710 --> 00:12:21,002
So it's even more rigorous and
data-driven than I thought.

263
00:12:21,377 --> 00:12:24,808
there's a lot of misunderstanding
about how MSC works, that it's just

264
00:12:24,810 --> 00:12:28,390
some people's opinion, and if you
don't, like your certification score,

265
00:12:28,391 --> 00:12:30,772
you can just hire someone else and
they'll give you a better score.

266
00:12:30,955 --> 00:12:31,995
that's not how it works.

267
00:12:31,997 --> 00:12:33,005
It can't work that way.

268
00:12:33,005 --> 00:12:34,536
There are safeguards in place to stop that

269
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:36,024
I'm glad you mentioned that.

270
00:12:36,024 --> 00:12:38,598
I think people make it complicated when
they just put out an opinion and just

271
00:12:38,598 --> 00:12:41,571
be like, "Well, this isn't right, and
they just did this." And, you and I

272
00:12:41,572 --> 00:12:43,159
know there's always safeguards in place.

273
00:12:43,209 --> 00:12:47,112
All these certifications, Seafood Watch,
MSC, they take the Ocean Wise, they take

274
00:12:47,114 --> 00:12:49,588
these certifications very, very seriously.

275
00:12:49,672 --> 00:12:53,799
the, the amount of detail and how
meticulous, the research is, the people

276
00:12:53,801 --> 00:12:57,659
working on it, they have to be… It's
almost like working with a government

277
00:12:57,660 --> 00:13:00,799
entity in terms of the messaging, in
terms of things, 'cause everybody has

278
00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:05,137
to be so careful because they don't
want anything to be out of place.

279
00:13:05,211 --> 00:13:09,293
And when they take a stance- Yeah … on
a fishery, when they say avoid, or,

280
00:13:09,293 --> 00:13:13,349
yes, this is good, or even, like, here's
an alternative, they have to mean it.

281
00:13:13,350 --> 00:13:16,303
They have to have the data to back it
up, and I think that's really important.

282
00:13:16,303 --> 00:13:17,432
and we don't need to have the data.

283
00:13:17,432 --> 00:13:20,159
We just wanna be able to
trust as consumers- Yeah

284
00:13:20,159 --> 00:13:23,384
just to be able to trust in it because
of all the amount of information and

285
00:13:23,385 --> 00:13:26,466
processing and everything, it's kinda
crazy with the… Like, I'm always

286
00:13:26,466 --> 00:13:30,287
f- so surprised and surprised and not
surprised- Oh, it gets overwhelming really

287
00:13:30,287 --> 00:13:30,742
fast

288
00:13:30,744 --> 00:13:31,596
…
but, it's like… Oh, yeah.

289
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:32,140
Yeah.

290
00:13:32,151 --> 00:13:33,006
it's insane.

291
00:13:33,324 --> 00:13:36,660
Now, I wanna kinda get to a little bit
more of, like, your first part of the

292
00:13:36,660 --> 00:13:40,436
book is talking about, like, the harms
of overfishing and what's happened.

293
00:13:40,469 --> 00:13:40,630
And

294
00:13:40,818 --> 00:13:44,229
So this is something that a lot of my
students are surprised about, that the

295
00:13:44,229 --> 00:13:48,785
biggest threat to marine biodiversity,
not only to sharks, but to fish, to

296
00:13:48,785 --> 00:13:53,198
seabirds, to sea turtles, to marine
mammals, it's not climate change, it's not

297
00:13:53,198 --> 00:13:55,565
plastic pollution, it's not oil spills.

298
00:13:56,066 --> 00:14:00,709
Those things are all bad, but the
biggest threat by far is harms caused

299
00:14:00,709 --> 00:14:04,131
by unsustainable fishing practices,
and that includes overfishing, habitat

300
00:14:04,132 --> 00:14:05,813
destruction, bycatch, things like that.

301
00:14:06,094 --> 00:14:11,164
Before I get into the how do we fix
it in the book, I really tried to

302
00:14:11,175 --> 00:14:15,451
hammer home this is a real problem
that we really do need to fix.

303
00:14:15,462 --> 00:14:16,304
It is bad.

304
00:14:16,663 --> 00:14:19,296
If you care about the environment
and you care about the environmental

305
00:14:19,313 --> 00:14:22,756
impacts of your day-to-day choices,
you have to care about this.

306
00:14:23,130 --> 00:14:25,416
but I also stress- And, and- … that
that doesn't mean we all have to

307
00:14:25,416 --> 00:14:27,847
be, give up seafood and become
vegan, 'cause there are solutions.

308
00:14:28,209 --> 00:14:29,072
Yeah, no, for sure.

309
00:14:29,073 --> 00:14:32,830
And I think there's one story too that
you talk about, which is the collapse

310
00:14:32,858 --> 00:14:38,513
of the Grand Banks cod, population,
which, is still in recovery mode now.

311
00:14:38,513 --> 00:14:41,999
And I mean, this is, a special
story for me as a Canadian because

312
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,147
that's where it happened- Yeah

313
00:14:43,147 --> 00:14:43,823
in Newfoundland.

314
00:14:44,208 --> 00:14:46,610
I was actually just speaking to
somebody who's from Newfoundland just

315
00:14:46,610 --> 00:14:50,288
this past week, and she mentioned
that story, and it wasn't just

316
00:14:50,290 --> 00:14:52,320
the fact that the cod collapsed.

317
00:14:52,531 --> 00:14:55,185
It was the fact that the
entire industry collapsed.

318
00:14:55,188 --> 00:14:59,231
Like, people were out of work for
generations, and they're still not

319
00:14:59,242 --> 00:15:03,019
back to fishing cod because we're
still never gonna be at the levels,

320
00:15:03,024 --> 00:15:04,250
well, maybe not in my lifetime.

321
00:15:04,253 --> 00:15:05,184
Hopefully we will one day.

322
00:15:05,185 --> 00:15:08,833
But, they're just starting to kinda
think about it, and they're starting

323
00:15:08,833 --> 00:15:10,920
to put a little more pressure on
fishing 'cause we're starting to see

324
00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,837
a little bit more recovery, but it's
not even close to where it's being.

325
00:15:13,837 --> 00:15:13,851
Mm-hmm.

326
00:15:14,122 --> 00:15:17,072
So I guess, like, you covered this
story in the book, please feel free

327
00:15:17,072 --> 00:15:18,507
to kinda elaborate on this story.

328
00:15:18,507 --> 00:15:21,236
I've talked a lot about it, but
I'd love to hear, you say it.

329
00:15:21,237 --> 00:15:25,139
But one question is, like, what
lessons that we learned from the

330
00:15:25,140 --> 00:15:29,591
collapse that maybe people are still
ignoring today, with this whole story?

331
00:15:29,667 --> 00:15:30,067
Oh, yeah.

332
00:15:30,071 --> 00:15:32,095
So if you can just kinda, like,
let people know what happened,

333
00:15:32,101 --> 00:15:35,440
and then just, like, talk about,
have we really learned our lesson?

334
00:15:35,855 --> 00:15:36,263
Yeah.

335
00:15:36,666 --> 00:15:41,609
So people don't usually think of it
in these terms, but the cod stocks off

336
00:15:41,609 --> 00:15:45,321
the Canadian Grand Banks are actually
one of the big reasons why European

337
00:15:45,322 --> 00:15:47,047
powers colonized North America.

338
00:15:47,424 --> 00:15:50,114
it was seen as evidence of
wealth of the New World.

339
00:15:50,245 --> 00:15:54,691
and for centuries of Western
colonization, as well as for time

340
00:15:54,691 --> 00:15:57,932
immemorial before that for indigenous
communities and First Nations,

341
00:15:58,344 --> 00:16:00,605
those stocks provided a ton of food.

342
00:16:00,914 --> 00:16:04,447
and then ev-even not only food
for local communities, but jobs

343
00:16:04,448 --> 00:16:07,259
for those communities as they
would export the cod elsewhere.

344
00:16:07,662 --> 00:16:11,419
and there were so many cod back
in the day that people said you

345
00:16:11,419 --> 00:16:12,870
didn't even need bait and a hook.

346
00:16:13,162 --> 00:16:16,282
You could just lower a basket with
rocks in it into the water and lift

347
00:16:16,282 --> 00:16:17,678
it up, and it would be full of cod.

348
00:16:18,162 --> 00:16:21,117
And no fish stocks are like that anymore.

349
00:16:21,119 --> 00:16:25,697
I don't know if those were really that
big back in the day, but This was one

350
00:16:25,698 --> 00:16:30,268
of the first examples of a famous and
fishery collapsing due to overharvest.

351
00:16:30,712 --> 00:16:35,515
And that was because of new
technologies that made it easier to

352
00:16:35,534 --> 00:16:37,012
catch more and more and more of them.

353
00:16:37,302 --> 00:16:42,368
People used to think that the ocean was so
vast that we could take whatever we wanted

354
00:16:42,427 --> 00:16:46,278
out of it and dump whatever we wanted
into it without really making an impact.

355
00:16:46,677 --> 00:16:49,644
And sadly, now we know that
that's not really true.

356
00:16:49,976 --> 00:16:52,179
And this is one of the reasons
why we know it's not true.

357
00:16:52,689 --> 00:16:57,264
When the Canadian cod fishery was shut
down in the 1990s, there was disbelief,

358
00:16:57,609 --> 00:17:00,123
that, this was an iconic industry.

359
00:17:00,123 --> 00:17:02,085
This was who we were as a people.

360
00:17:02,519 --> 00:17:04,326
there were warning
signs that were ignored.

361
00:17:04,763 --> 00:17:08,277
It's not like no one knew that anything
bad was happening, but people thought

362
00:17:08,293 --> 00:17:11,296
that sort of this was something
that only environmentalists worried

363
00:17:11,297 --> 00:17:14,426
about, and everything would be fine,
and maybe we'll take slightly too

364
00:17:14,426 --> 00:17:16,280
much, and it'll recover eventually.

365
00:17:16,616 --> 00:17:18,181
The population collapsed.

366
00:17:18,527 --> 00:17:22,079
There were so many cod taken out that
there weren't enough left that their

367
00:17:22,081 --> 00:17:23,956
babies would replenish the population.

368
00:17:23,957 --> 00:17:27,181
And it's been, 30 years, and
we're only starting to see initial

369
00:17:27,183 --> 00:17:29,384
signs of recovery, like this year.

370
00:17:29,934 --> 00:17:30,143
Mm-hmm.

371
00:17:30,168 --> 00:17:32,138
And it's really bad.

372
00:17:32,323 --> 00:17:33,953
So there's a few lessons from this.

373
00:17:33,958 --> 00:17:37,769
One is listen to the data and
listen to the experts and don't

374
00:17:37,769 --> 00:17:39,398
let emotions get in the way.

375
00:17:39,745 --> 00:17:44,917
One is things that hurt the ocean don't
just hurt whales, they also hurt people

376
00:17:44,918 --> 00:17:48,950
who depend on them it can take a really
long time to recover if we screw this up.

377
00:17:49,378 --> 00:17:51,712
So let's be careful and do
it right the first time.

378
00:17:52,168 --> 00:17:52,474
Yeah.

379
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:53,542
completely agree.

380
00:17:53,543 --> 00:17:58,271
And I think you kinda mentioned something
in that that is a difficult thing to

381
00:17:58,615 --> 00:18:02,896
kinda sift through as we, learn and see
things on… We get so much information

382
00:18:02,898 --> 00:18:05,226
from social media and so many opinions.

383
00:18:05,629 --> 00:18:10,658
Sometimes it's difficult to understand,
what's considered, like, overfished,

384
00:18:11,044 --> 00:18:14,665
what's considered depleted, and
what's, like, maximum fished.

385
00:18:14,665 --> 00:18:18,367
There's a lot of, nuance in the
language that maybe scientists use

386
00:18:18,376 --> 00:18:22,169
and that different media outlets use
that can confuse people to understand,

387
00:18:22,169 --> 00:18:23,999
like, should I be eating this stock?

388
00:18:24,035 --> 00:18:24,902
Should I not?

389
00:18:25,260 --> 00:18:27,401
can you talk about, like, the
difference between overfishing,

390
00:18:27,591 --> 00:18:30,068
overfished, and depleted to start off?

391
00:18:30,104 --> 00:18:30,588
Yes.

392
00:18:30,926 --> 00:18:34,238
So part of the reason why this gets so
complicated is there's a lot of math

393
00:18:34,265 --> 00:18:36,134
and law that goes into a lot of this.

394
00:18:36,612 --> 00:18:36,675
Mm-hmm.

395
00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:40,387
Uh, so I try to explain in sort of
plain language what those terms mean.

396
00:18:40,701 --> 00:18:45,678
A key thing here is that overfishing
is an action and overfished is a state.

397
00:18:46,128 --> 00:18:49,674
So- Gotcha … a fishery can
be experiencing overfishing,

398
00:18:49,683 --> 00:18:50,928
but not overfished.

399
00:18:50,962 --> 00:18:53,971
That means we are taking too
many fish, but the population is

400
00:18:53,971 --> 00:18:57,173
still relatively strong, so if
we stop, it'll recover quickly.

401
00:18:57,620 --> 00:19:01,233
A population can be overfished
without overfishing occurring.

402
00:19:01,415 --> 00:19:04,749
That means things are pretty bad,
but the threat has been removed, so

403
00:19:04,751 --> 00:19:06,189
it's probably starting to recover.

404
00:19:06,541 --> 00:19:10,238
A stock can be overfished
with overfishing occurring.

405
00:19:10,499 --> 00:19:14,451
That's really bad, that there's
a bad problem in place and

406
00:19:14,451 --> 00:19:15,725
the problem is continuing.

407
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,328
Or it can be neither, and
that's sort of the goal.

408
00:19:18,748 --> 00:19:22,974
depleted is a term that means different
things in different contexts, but

409
00:19:22,980 --> 00:19:26,548
generally pretty similar to overfished
or well on your way to overfished.

410
00:19:26,991 --> 00:19:29,671
One of the things that I talk about
in the book is the United Nations

411
00:19:29,673 --> 00:19:33,592
Food and Agriculture Organization's,
State of Fisheries and Aquaculture

412
00:19:33,595 --> 00:19:37,394
Report, which is sort of the bible
of global fishery statistics.

413
00:19:37,744 --> 00:19:42,210
And I see, sometimes well-intentioned
people and sometimes extremists like

414
00:19:42,211 --> 00:19:46,372
the Seaspiracy people intentionally
misstate statistics from this report.

415
00:19:46,739 --> 00:19:51,028
So as of the most recent numbers,
about a third of all global

416
00:19:51,028 --> 00:19:52,808
fish stocks are overfished.

417
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:53,681
That's bad.

418
00:19:54,213 --> 00:19:59,135
But more than half, less than
two-thirds are not overfished.

419
00:19:59,443 --> 00:20:03,920
They are fully fished, which means we
are fishing them at appropriate levels.

420
00:20:04,129 --> 00:20:05,693
Fully fished is the goal.

421
00:20:05,693 --> 00:20:05,706
Right.

422
00:20:06,081 --> 00:20:08,009
That means that a fishery is doing well.

423
00:20:08,033 --> 00:20:10,805
It is not hurting the environment,
and it's providing as much food

424
00:20:11,062 --> 00:20:12,901
and protein and jobs as it can.

425
00:20:13,412 --> 00:20:17,131
But you see some of these extremists
combine those two statistics and

426
00:20:17,131 --> 00:20:21,357
say that 95% of all fisheries
are overfished or fully fished.

427
00:20:21,519 --> 00:20:24,009
Well, fully fished is the
goal, and overfished is bad.

428
00:20:24,346 --> 00:20:28,140
So combining those two is at the
very least a little bit misleading

429
00:20:28,541 --> 00:20:31,122
I can see where it comes from 'cause
fully fished sounds like, yeah-

430
00:20:31,123 --> 00:20:33,690
It sounds- … we're fully, like,
taking advantage- Yep … of this.

431
00:20:33,703 --> 00:20:36,784
But it's almost like, it almost
should be, like, appropriately fished.

432
00:20:36,868 --> 00:20:36,996
Yes.

433
00:20:36,999 --> 00:20:37,531
You know what I mean?

434
00:20:37,532 --> 00:20:39,029
Like, we're following- Yep,
we are reaching- … the rules

435
00:20:39,041 --> 00:20:42,655
We are following the rules and reaching
goals that are set by both sides.

436
00:20:42,886 --> 00:20:43,793
Yeah.

437
00:20:43,793 --> 00:20:47,401
Uh, so there's a lot of those statistics
and how to- Yeah … interpret

438
00:20:47,401 --> 00:20:50,473
them, and those sort of reports and
databases, and how to access them

439
00:20:50,473 --> 00:20:52,373
yourself that I talk about in the book.

440
00:20:52,577 --> 00:20:55,643
You can trust me, you can trust the many
experts I talk about in the book, but

441
00:20:55,644 --> 00:20:59,372
I also show you how to independently
find that data for yourself and

442
00:20:59,372 --> 00:21:00,614
convince yourself that it's true.

443
00:21:01,074 --> 00:21:03,968
And this is what I love about what
you've done and, to be honest, this is

444
00:21:03,969 --> 00:21:07,908
what I expected, the fact that, like,
here is what's happening, like, here

445
00:21:07,915 --> 00:21:11,359
could be, like, a point of confusion
for the reader or for the person who

446
00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:12,861
wants to get sustainable seafood.

447
00:21:13,250 --> 00:21:16,806
And then here's what's the reality of
it, and then not only am I, " don't

448
00:21:16,807 --> 00:21:20,469
just trust me, but you can go look at
the data which is freely available,

449
00:21:20,469 --> 00:21:23,195
which could take a little bit more
time to come to the same conclusion.

450
00:21:23,212 --> 00:21:24,680
So if you wanna trust me, that's fine.

451
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,321
If you wanna go through the data, go
through the data." But identifying

452
00:21:28,328 --> 00:21:32,037
the issue that could be confusing,
where someone's taken something and,

453
00:21:32,037 --> 00:21:34,619
misused the stats, is very important.

454
00:21:34,639 --> 00:21:38,141
It's why you and I have gone through
so many statistical courses during

455
00:21:38,142 --> 00:21:42,195
our training as scientists, and why
we continue to read up on literature

456
00:21:42,195 --> 00:21:48,357
to understand what it means to misuse
science, Or to misuse- Yeah … data.

457
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:53,079
And it's so easy to do so, whether you
wanna do it on purpose or not, it really

458
00:21:53,202 --> 00:21:57,122
truly matters whether you know what you're
talking about in this kind of state,

459
00:21:57,202 --> 00:21:57,551
yes.

460
00:21:57,576 --> 00:22:02,213
it is easier to be persuaded of
harmful nonsense if you don't

461
00:22:02,222 --> 00:22:03,779
understand how anything works.

462
00:22:04,259 --> 00:22:04,521
Yeah.

463
00:22:04,559 --> 00:22:08,659
so it is, you are empowering yourself
and your family if you learn some

464
00:22:08,659 --> 00:22:12,264
basic facts about science and the
environment and relevant laws.

465
00:22:12,623 --> 00:22:17,010
Because if you do not do those
things, you are, more likely to be

466
00:22:17,121 --> 00:22:20,801
taken advantage of by extremists who
are peddling an agenda that does not

467
00:22:20,803 --> 00:22:22,878
benefit you or, frankly, the ocean.

468
00:22:23,329 --> 00:22:23,735
Right.

469
00:22:23,994 --> 00:22:24,282
Yeah.

470
00:22:24,380 --> 00:22:25,530
No, 100%.

471
00:22:25,779 --> 00:22:28,547
Now, one thing you mentioned in
the book, you kinda covered the,

472
00:22:28,602 --> 00:22:30,998
right whale and Maine lobster.

473
00:22:31,007 --> 00:22:31,191
Yep.

474
00:22:31,438 --> 00:22:33,756
I'm not gonna say a controversy,
but, like, it was, it was-

475
00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:34,566
No, controversy is fair.

476
00:22:34,566 --> 00:22:34,576
Yeah.

477
00:22:34,725 --> 00:22:35,888
you could say controversy.

478
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:40,253
can you explain what happened, and
what ensued after this happened?

479
00:22:40,483 --> 00:22:43,869
Yeah, so this is very much
an ongoing issue, with some

480
00:22:43,869 --> 00:22:45,223
news even a couple weeks ago.

481
00:22:45,645 --> 00:22:47,251
but this is a bycatch issue.

482
00:22:47,264 --> 00:22:49,935
This is you're trying to catch
something and you accidentally catch

483
00:22:49,936 --> 00:22:51,892
something else that's swimming near it.

484
00:22:52,192 --> 00:22:55,499
And in this case, you're trying to catch
lobster, which is the most valuable

485
00:22:55,501 --> 00:22:57,956
fishery in the United States and one
of the most valuable fisheries in

486
00:22:57,961 --> 00:23:01,880
Canada, and you're accidentally catching
critically endangered North Atlantic

487
00:23:01,882 --> 00:23:06,075
right whales, of which there are only
a few hundred left in the world And

488
00:23:06,403 --> 00:23:08,450
people say, "That doesn't make any sense.

489
00:23:08,475 --> 00:23:10,216
The lobsters are caught in traps.

490
00:23:10,393 --> 00:23:12,704
how can a giant whale be caught
in a little trap?" Well, it's

491
00:23:12,704 --> 00:23:15,435
not the trap, it's the line that
connects the trap to the surface.

492
00:23:15,817 --> 00:23:19,225
And in a place like the Gulf of Maine,
which is a huge lobster fishing area,

493
00:23:19,448 --> 00:23:23,826
there's over a million of those lines,
which means it is a minefield for

494
00:23:23,826 --> 00:23:27,835
these whales, which don't have great
eyesight, can't turn super quick.

495
00:23:28,154 --> 00:23:31,713
they get tangled, and then they will
either drown or badly injured, or they'll

496
00:23:31,716 --> 00:23:34,450
drag the heavy chain of traps behind them.

497
00:23:34,875 --> 00:23:35,957
this is really bad.

498
00:23:35,971 --> 00:23:39,858
This is why lobster is on Seafood
Watch's no-no list, the red list.

499
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,322
It is why MSC has removed
their certifications from

500
00:23:43,322 --> 00:23:44,792
lobster fisheries in the area

501
00:23:45,017 --> 00:23:46,712
We're not worrying about
overfishing of lobster.

502
00:23:46,726 --> 00:23:47,800
That part's well-managed.

503
00:23:48,046 --> 00:23:51,887
But the way the gear is used kills
North Atlantic right whales, and

504
00:23:51,887 --> 00:23:53,446
that's a critically endangered species.

505
00:23:53,447 --> 00:23:55,227
They are circling the conservation drain.

506
00:23:55,651 --> 00:23:56,287
And they're-

507
00:23:56,287 --> 00:23:58,042
70 breeding females left.

508
00:23:58,074 --> 00:24:01,193
They've had a good year this year,
but it's the first good year in a

509
00:24:01,193 --> 00:24:06,036
long time, and we'll talk about it
in a second, of what's kinda upcoming

510
00:24:06,036 --> 00:24:08,087
that could, harm that even further.

511
00:24:08,327 --> 00:24:08,816
Yes.

512
00:24:09,279 --> 00:24:11,934
so there are some solutions to
this, and, most bycatch issues

513
00:24:11,934 --> 00:24:16,191
have solutions often in the form
of required gear modifications.

514
00:24:16,598 --> 00:24:19,811
So in this case, there are two
main ways that you can make

515
00:24:19,929 --> 00:24:21,479
lobster traps not kill whales.

516
00:24:21,848 --> 00:24:25,155
One is the- have the lines
that are connected to a float

517
00:24:25,156 --> 00:24:27,009
on the surface not as strong.

518
00:24:27,494 --> 00:24:31,042
So if you, are trying to haul in
your line, it's not gonna break.

519
00:24:31,043 --> 00:24:32,081
It's strong enough for that.

520
00:24:32,334 --> 00:24:35,202
But if a huge whale swims
into it, it will snap.

521
00:24:35,615 --> 00:24:40,390
that is, to me, a no-brainer because
either way, if a whale hits your gear,

522
00:24:40,391 --> 00:24:42,059
you're not getting that gear back.

523
00:24:42,548 --> 00:24:45,981
So, if the line snaps, those traps
are just down there and you can't get

524
00:24:45,982 --> 00:24:47,589
them, but that's already happened.

525
00:24:47,589 --> 00:24:48,641
They're already lost.

526
00:24:49,126 --> 00:24:49,361
Yeah.

527
00:24:49,397 --> 00:24:53,259
Another is, a little more high-tech
of a solution, and that is

528
00:24:53,261 --> 00:24:55,303
called on-demand ropeless gear.

529
00:24:55,777 --> 00:25:00,028
So the lobster trap, instead of being
connected to a buoy float on the surface,

530
00:25:00,336 --> 00:25:05,016
has a little compressed air cartridge
and little gas bag with a radio receiver.

531
00:25:05,018 --> 00:25:08,553
And when the boat goes over its
trap, it sends a radio signal

532
00:25:08,554 --> 00:25:09,918
that said, I am this boat.

533
00:25:09,955 --> 00:25:10,741
I am here.

534
00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:14,819
Come to the surface." The compressed air
cartridge goes off, the bag inflates,

535
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,351
and the trap floats to the surface with
no possibility of encountering whales.

536
00:25:19,590 --> 00:25:23,702
And fishermen hate this, despise this.

537
00:25:24,019 --> 00:25:24,650
It's different.

538
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,757
It's different than how
they've done it for centuries.

539
00:25:26,774 --> 00:25:28,498
I get that, but it works fine.

540
00:25:28,568 --> 00:25:29,715
It's not that expensive.

541
00:25:29,715 --> 00:25:33,740
There are grants to help you do it, and
it removes the problem so that you can

542
00:25:33,740 --> 00:25:40,409
be not on the no-no list anymore I am
one of the relatively few scientists

543
00:25:40,468 --> 00:25:43,470
and conservation professionals who
sort of works both in the fisheries

544
00:25:43,470 --> 00:25:45,505
space and the ocean conservation space.

545
00:25:45,963 --> 00:25:48,819
So for our ocean conservation
friends, I'm probably one of the

546
00:25:48,820 --> 00:25:50,846
most pro-fisheries people they know.

547
00:25:51,269 --> 00:25:51,370
Mm-hmm.

548
00:25:51,388 --> 00:25:55,476
And as some people have explicitly told
me that, and I think the lobstermen are

549
00:25:55,476 --> 00:25:59,062
just making absolute buffoons of themself
with how they're handling this, and it's

550
00:25:59,063 --> 00:26:00,592
making it real hard to support them.

551
00:26:01,001 --> 00:26:01,533
it is.

552
00:26:01,555 --> 00:26:04,314
you've spoken to a lot of
lobster fishermen over your time.

553
00:26:04,314 --> 00:26:06,020
You've spoken to a lot of
fishermen over the time.

554
00:26:06,020 --> 00:26:08,648
Their goal is to continue
to fish over time.

555
00:26:08,904 --> 00:26:10,623
There's a lot of stuff
that's going against them.

556
00:26:10,707 --> 00:26:12,786
Obviously, things are happening
in the environment that are

557
00:26:12,786 --> 00:26:14,044
changing things for them.

558
00:26:14,375 --> 00:26:19,097
and now this doesn't help them, but I
think the thing is, is like by going

559
00:26:19,097 --> 00:26:22,116
in with a collaborative approach and
being like, "Look, we wanna help you

560
00:26:22,117 --> 00:26:27,001
do this, but we don't want you to
like kill whales or do anything harm,

561
00:26:27,003 --> 00:26:31,704
but we want you to fish as well." and
it's always a difficult thing to line

562
00:26:31,704 --> 00:26:33,333
up because everybody's defensive.

563
00:26:33,333 --> 00:26:35,328
Everybody wants, to do what they wanna do.

564
00:26:35,602 --> 00:26:39,115
but there's other, external
circumstances that come into this.

565
00:26:39,471 --> 00:26:40,333
and like, there's a lot at play.

566
00:26:40,334 --> 00:26:44,091
Like, the certification, sites like
MSC and Seafood Watch have their job

567
00:26:44,093 --> 00:26:46,791
to do, that they're like, "Look, this
is not sustainable because of this.

568
00:26:46,849 --> 00:26:50,706
We are fully transparent in terms of why
we're doing this." And I think one of the

569
00:26:50,706 --> 00:26:55,285
responses that happened after this was
there was a congressman, that tried to

570
00:26:55,285 --> 00:26:59,032
cut funding to the Monterey Bay, Aquarium-
Yes … as like their federal funding,

571
00:26:59,255 --> 00:27:00,390
This is a Democrat.

572
00:27:00,477 --> 00:27:04,219
This is a Democrat- A Democrat … from
Maine who tried to- Right … use

573
00:27:04,220 --> 00:27:07,590
this scandal to say that the
Monterey Bay Aquarium is a

574
00:27:07,648 --> 00:27:10,741
eco-terrorist organization, and they
shouldn't get any federal funding.

575
00:27:11,043 --> 00:27:14,040
no, they use science-based
standards to accurately point

576
00:27:14,045 --> 00:27:16,604
out that some of his constituents
are causing environmental harm.

577
00:27:17,020 --> 00:27:19,925
this is Jared Golden, for
any US politics nerds, widely

578
00:27:19,926 --> 00:27:21,433
regarded as the worst Democrat.

579
00:27:21,845 --> 00:27:25,046
but I hated him before you guys
did because of this instance.

580
00:27:25,348 --> 00:27:28,836
I think this is an important concept
because you deal a lot with public policy.

581
00:27:29,193 --> 00:27:32,565
when a congressperson comes out
and speaks against a program like

582
00:27:32,566 --> 00:27:36,539
this that you know full and well,
we all know that they do the work.

583
00:27:36,552 --> 00:27:38,936
We've talked about it just,
in this interview in itself.

584
00:27:39,449 --> 00:27:41,379
There's a lot of scientists that
listen to this, like science

585
00:27:41,392 --> 00:27:42,362
communication and so forth.

586
00:27:42,693 --> 00:27:49,144
How can we come back out in support
of good science to say, "Hey,

587
00:27:49,198 --> 00:27:50,836
look, like this is the situation.

588
00:27:50,849 --> 00:27:53,106
Yes, we feel bad for
the lobster fishermen.

589
00:27:53,117 --> 00:27:54,094
We want them to fish.

590
00:27:54,115 --> 00:27:59,098
But we also understand what the Seafood
Watch and MSC are trying to do." How can

591
00:27:59,098 --> 00:28:01,884
we do that without anybody coming out
and being like, "Hey, you're biased to

592
00:28:01,885 --> 00:28:05,195
this because you're being paid off by
whoever pays off people for environment"?

593
00:28:05,195 --> 00:28:07,870
And by the way, if anybody does
do that, I would love some money

594
00:28:07,870 --> 00:28:08,869
from that- Yeah, I'm, I'm so-

595
00:28:08,890 --> 00:28:09,789
because we're not getting any … I take

596
00:28:09,789 --> 00:28:10,227
PayPal.

597
00:28:11,187 --> 00:28:13,015
Um, yeah.

598
00:28:13,041 --> 00:28:17,099
it's really hard because people,
they see certain keywords, and that

599
00:28:17,116 --> 00:28:20,464
immediately triggers for them, "You
are the other side. I automatically

600
00:28:20,464 --> 00:28:24,212
assume these things about you. One of
those things is you're lying." And-

601
00:28:24,232 --> 00:28:24,660
Mm-hmm

602
00:28:24,660 --> 00:28:26,193
…
I am not trying to persuade.

603
00:28:26,226 --> 00:28:29,267
At this point, most of the time I'm
not trying to persuade the lobstermen,

604
00:28:29,274 --> 00:28:33,320
because I've tried that, and other groups
are in that area and are, have perhaps

605
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,433
more productive relationships than I do.

606
00:28:35,636 --> 00:28:38,945
But I'm trying to persuade people
who maybe didn't know about this

607
00:28:38,950 --> 00:28:40,140
issue, that if you care about- Yeah

608
00:28:40,145 --> 00:28:43,406
the environment, eat something else for a
while until they get their act together.

609
00:28:43,493 --> 00:28:48,538
it's really hard to convince someone
who has made their entire identity,

610
00:28:49,038 --> 00:28:52,108
"I am not going to be convinced
or persuaded on this issue."

611
00:28:52,155 --> 00:28:55,427
And, One of the reasons I live and
work in the Washington, DC area is

612
00:28:55,428 --> 00:28:57,469
because I'm a policy and process guy.

613
00:28:57,898 --> 00:29:02,974
the US used to have all of these
really, rigorous and clear processes

614
00:29:02,974 --> 00:29:06,727
explaining how rules and regulations
and laws get made, with clear input

615
00:29:07,104 --> 00:29:10,107
from the environmental nonprofit
sector, clear inputs from academic

616
00:29:10,144 --> 00:29:11,626
experts and scientific evidence.

617
00:29:11,924 --> 00:29:13,900
I'm hopeful we'll go back
to that at some point.

618
00:29:14,328 --> 00:29:18,451
When someone like Jared Golden says,
"This is not based on any science,

619
00:29:18,453 --> 00:29:21,936
it's just biased extremist nonsense,"
he's lying and he knows that.

620
00:29:21,998 --> 00:29:25,817
And he has- Yeah … established
to me that he is not someone I

621
00:29:25,818 --> 00:29:27,311
can trust or work with or support.

622
00:29:27,776 --> 00:29:31,250
And I think you have to almost look
at some of maybe their motivations,

623
00:29:31,251 --> 00:29:34,532
like the politicians' motivations of,
like, that's a key supporter for his

624
00:29:34,533 --> 00:29:37,604
campaign, and, they don't wanna go
against that and they're coming out.

625
00:29:37,605 --> 00:29:39,275
Unfortunately, they're not
doing it- in the right way.

626
00:29:39,275 --> 00:29:42,459
And let's be honest, like there are
a lot of fishermen and fisheries

627
00:29:42,494 --> 00:29:46,941
communities who are out there,
experimenting and using ropeless gear.

628
00:29:46,948 --> 00:29:49,067
So it's not as if-
Yeah … it's not happening.

629
00:29:49,076 --> 00:29:50,648
Like they are trying to-
Yeah, people are trying it

630
00:29:50,648 --> 00:29:51,028
do their best to change.

631
00:29:51,028 --> 00:29:51,670
And it works.

632
00:29:51,696 --> 00:29:51,992
Right.

633
00:29:52,185 --> 00:29:52,769
And it works.

634
00:29:52,771 --> 00:29:53,132
Yeah.

635
00:29:53,132 --> 00:29:53,142
Yeah.

636
00:29:53,217 --> 00:29:56,376
and it's getting better and better
every time these studies come out.

637
00:29:56,505 --> 00:29:58,990
I remember at the beginning it
was very difficult and it was

638
00:29:58,997 --> 00:30:00,272
hard, and nobody likes change.

639
00:30:00,439 --> 00:30:01,542
like we all hate change.

640
00:30:01,561 --> 00:30:05,270
But, unfortunately, like we have to
do this when we have a response like

641
00:30:05,271 --> 00:30:07,718
this, and that's what science is all
about, it's what conservation- Mm-hmm

642
00:30:07,718 --> 00:30:08,254
is all about.

643
00:30:08,258 --> 00:30:11,842
And I'm glad that there are people out
there and communities out there, fishing

644
00:30:11,844 --> 00:30:13,248
communities, who are trying to work this.

645
00:30:13,276 --> 00:30:16,832
As frustrating as that could be,
and working through the kinks

646
00:30:16,833 --> 00:30:20,172
for like us to be able to have,
sustainable lobster again, and crabs

647
00:30:20,172 --> 00:30:22,874
and things like that, and not harm
whales, which I think is wonderful.

648
00:30:22,910 --> 00:30:26,736
A couple of other things I wanna kinda
go on, that you talk about in the book.

649
00:30:27,189 --> 00:30:31,131
If I go to the grocery store I want
protein, I'm a big guy, I like to

650
00:30:31,131 --> 00:30:34,097
work out, I want protein, and people
like, "Tuna's the best kind of

651
00:30:34,097 --> 00:30:37,199
protein you can get." You look on
the label, it says, "Dolphin safe."

652
00:30:37,513 --> 00:30:40,309
What does it actually mean
and what does it leave out?

653
00:30:40,770 --> 00:30:41,089
Yes.

654
00:30:41,098 --> 00:30:44,701
So dolphin safe does not mean what
people think it means, and it does not

655
00:30:44,704 --> 00:30:46,703
mean what Seaspiracy claimed it means.

656
00:30:46,978 --> 00:30:47,161
Okay.

657
00:30:47,218 --> 00:30:54,558
so that is the most tuna is caught
via a net called a purse seine, which

658
00:30:54,559 --> 00:30:58,090
is a large net that is dragged around
a school of tuna, and then the purse

659
00:30:58,090 --> 00:31:00,539
strings are drawn and it catches that.

660
00:31:00,575 --> 00:31:04,639
That also catches anything that was
near the tuna the problem is how do

661
00:31:04,639 --> 00:31:06,239
you know when to deploy that net?

662
00:31:06,567 --> 00:31:06,605
Mm-hmm.

663
00:31:06,605 --> 00:31:08,339
Because you can't see
tuna from the surface.

664
00:31:08,752 --> 00:31:15,382
So what people used to do is they would
look for dolphins and say, "Oh, there are

665
00:31:15,382 --> 00:31:19,297
dolphins feeding here. There's probably
tuna feeding here underneath them."

666
00:31:19,559 --> 00:31:22,313
And they would set the net
around the dolphins, and that

667
00:31:22,313 --> 00:31:23,491
would kill those dolphins.

668
00:31:23,532 --> 00:31:25,257
They can jump over the
net, but they didn't.

669
00:31:25,722 --> 00:31:28,759
And dolphin safe tuna just
means we didn't do that.

670
00:31:29,203 --> 00:31:29,445
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

671
00:31:29,448 --> 00:31:30,211
You shouldn't do that.

672
00:31:30,257 --> 00:31:30,919
That's bad.

673
00:31:31,334 --> 00:31:34,862
But it does not mean no dolphins
could possibly have been hurt

674
00:31:34,927 --> 00:31:36,444
as a result of this fishing.

675
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:37,923
It was never meant to mean that.

676
00:31:37,946 --> 00:31:39,560
No one ever said that it means that.

677
00:31:39,908 --> 00:31:43,909
And Sea Spear Sea said, like, "Well, we
found, a dead dolphin in this dolphin

678
00:31:43,911 --> 00:31:47,317
safe tuna fishery, so the whole term is
meaningless." No, you not knowing what

679
00:31:47,318 --> 00:31:49,153
it means doesn't mean it's meaningless.

680
00:31:49,526 --> 00:31:49,935
Yeah.

681
00:31:50,349 --> 00:31:50,673
That makes sense.

682
00:31:50,678 --> 00:31:54,222
And all, tuna caught in, sold in the
US is required to have that label.

683
00:31:54,655 --> 00:31:58,016
something that if you want no dolphins
were caught at all during this,

684
00:31:58,270 --> 00:32:00,241
look for wild pole and line caught.

685
00:32:00,777 --> 00:32:01,012
Mm-hmm.

686
00:32:01,012 --> 00:32:04,105
Um, that is one of the few fisheries in
the world where individuals are still

687
00:32:04,105 --> 00:32:07,836
caught with a rod and reel rather than
some of this giant industrial-sized

688
00:32:07,841 --> 00:32:10,288
fishing gear that can be miles
long and have thousands of hooks.

689
00:32:10,750 --> 00:32:10,772
Mm-hmm.

690
00:32:10,772 --> 00:32:13,949
Uh, there's also videos of the how
that works, on the Marine Stewardship

691
00:32:13,965 --> 00:32:15,391
Council website, which is really cool.

692
00:32:15,391 --> 00:32:19,057
it's a bunch of people, with rods and
reels standing on the back of the deck

693
00:32:19,068 --> 00:32:21,037
all going, "Got one. Bloop." Yeah.

694
00:32:21,048 --> 00:32:23,808
"Got one. Bloop." And it's
just chaos on the deck.

695
00:32:24,161 --> 00:32:26,889
that means they're actually
catching just the tuna, and-

696
00:32:26,980 --> 00:32:27,266
Yeah

697
00:32:27,266 --> 00:32:28,681
…
pretty much nothing else means that.

698
00:32:29,101 --> 00:32:29,415
Yeah.

699
00:32:29,485 --> 00:32:30,142
No, that's great.

700
00:32:30,143 --> 00:32:31,956
And I liked having the video
'cause it kinda show what

701
00:32:31,969 --> 00:32:32,927
actually rod and reels means.

702
00:32:33,098 --> 00:32:36,180
And I remember looking on the Seafood
Watch app, and it actually tells

703
00:32:36,181 --> 00:32:37,987
you it's caught by line and pole,

704
00:32:38,031 --> 00:32:38,944
which I think is really great.

705
00:32:38,946 --> 00:32:40,489
So it- it's really easy-
Yeah … to do that.

706
00:32:40,768 --> 00:32:43,925
it's kind of an interesting, that you
ha- like a, I guess a take, but it's,

707
00:32:43,937 --> 00:32:45,584
you have reasonings for this take.

708
00:32:45,937 --> 00:32:50,812
there was a movie, I think it was last
two years ago that came out, narrated

709
00:32:50,830 --> 00:32:53,041
by Sir David Attenborough called Oceans.

710
00:32:53,044 --> 00:32:53,056
Yes.

711
00:32:53,429 --> 00:32:54,332
And, or Ocean.

712
00:32:54,670 --> 00:32:57,874
And one of the big things there,
and it's still happening now, is

713
00:32:57,874 --> 00:33:00,735
the call for a ban on trawling.

714
00:33:01,289 --> 00:33:05,654
Uh- Yes … so can you explain for those
who don't know what trawling is, and

715
00:33:05,654 --> 00:33:08,612
then, your position on this global ban is?

716
00:33:08,618 --> 00:33:11,130
'Cause I think it's a really interesting
position, and probably not something that

717
00:33:11,194 --> 00:33:12,916
I think people would expect from you.

718
00:33:13,398 --> 00:33:13,876
Yes.

719
00:33:14,176 --> 00:33:16,575
So if you haven't seen that David
Attenborough movie, you should.

720
00:33:16,576 --> 00:33:17,146
It's great.

721
00:33:17,257 --> 00:33:19,290
it's on Disney Plus, at
least here in the US.

722
00:33:19,713 --> 00:33:23,438
but yet the sort of the big bad guy
in that movie was trawl fishing.

723
00:33:23,446 --> 00:33:23,456
Mm-hmm.

724
00:33:23,469 --> 00:33:26,135
And they had some really amazing
footage of what that looks like.

725
00:33:26,510 --> 00:33:29,838
They were really showing a specific
subset of trawl fishing and using it

726
00:33:29,847 --> 00:33:32,647
to interpolate all trawl fishing, and
that's where the problem comes in.

727
00:33:33,105 --> 00:33:36,615
So they were talking about bottom
trawl fishing, which is dragging a

728
00:33:36,615 --> 00:33:40,818
net that has a heavy chain in front
of it over the seabed that causes

729
00:33:40,819 --> 00:33:44,153
things hiding in the sand to jump
up, and they get caught in the net.

730
00:33:44,450 --> 00:33:47,541
that can be, in the wrong place,
that can be extremely destructive.

731
00:33:47,998 --> 00:33:51,202
it causes scars on the seafloor
that are visible from space.

732
00:33:51,637 --> 00:33:55,739
it has been compared to, burning
down a whole forest to catch

733
00:33:55,747 --> 00:33:59,316
rabbits, because it also destroys
the sensitive seafloor habitat.

734
00:33:59,567 --> 00:34:03,154
but yeah, we shouldn't do it in places
that have sensitive seafloor habitat.

735
00:34:03,479 --> 00:34:04,566
I am all for that.

736
00:34:04,849 --> 00:34:08,195
But that is not the same thing as we
shouldn't trawl at all because, among

737
00:34:08,204 --> 00:34:11,218
other things, trawling provides about
a quarter of the world's seafood.

738
00:34:11,569 --> 00:34:15,887
so not doing it anymore would leave a
pretty big hole Mm-hmm … in, coastal

739
00:34:15,888 --> 00:34:18,869
economies as well as, the dinner table.

740
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:19,646
Right.

741
00:34:19,646 --> 00:34:24,991
And so there are places that are, sandy
or muddy bottom and don't have sponges

742
00:34:24,992 --> 00:34:27,799
or corals or kelp or sensitive habitats.

743
00:34:28,116 --> 00:34:30,784
We can trawl there without,
damaging sensitive habitat.

744
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:32,815
There's also non-bottom trawling.

745
00:34:32,821 --> 00:34:36,968
There's midwater trawls, which is just
a big net dragged through the water,

746
00:34:37,023 --> 00:34:38,571
that doesn't even touch the seafloor.

747
00:34:38,967 --> 00:34:42,207
that's not the same thing there
are places we should not do this.

748
00:34:42,243 --> 00:34:47,147
Yeah … it can cause very real harms in
some places, but I think ban all of it

749
00:34:47,165 --> 00:34:49,560
everywhere is not realistic or necessary.

750
00:34:50,109 --> 00:34:50,568
Interesting.

751
00:34:50,568 --> 00:34:50,886
Yeah.

752
00:34:51,149 --> 00:34:55,582
I think also there should be a
requirement, wherever this is happening,

753
00:34:55,887 --> 00:35:00,144
to prove that the bottom is trawlable.

754
00:35:00,389 --> 00:35:03,688
'Cause there's a lot of places where we
may not know, like deep sea trawling.

755
00:35:03,752 --> 00:35:06,726
There may be some place where it
could be a seamount that could

756
00:35:06,736 --> 00:35:10,541
have a lot of habitat on there, and
if you're trawling it, we have no

757
00:35:10,542 --> 00:35:12,237
idea what habitat we're destroying.

758
00:35:12,238 --> 00:35:14,614
So obviously there's a lot
of caveats within that.

759
00:35:14,813 --> 00:35:15,656
but I think you're right.

760
00:35:15,656 --> 00:35:19,493
I think it can be sustainable certain
places and unsustainable other places.

761
00:35:19,494 --> 00:35:19,964
I think it's just- Yeah.

762
00:35:19,964 --> 00:35:21,780
There, there- … a matter of,
like, what they're doing, right?

763
00:35:21,845 --> 00:35:25,416
There are Marine Stewardship Council
certified bottom trawl fisheries.

764
00:35:25,468 --> 00:35:28,038
I explain how that works, with
a few examples in the book.

765
00:35:28,285 --> 00:35:31,603
There are- Yeah … Seafood Watch
rated green bottom trawl fisheries.

766
00:35:31,929 --> 00:35:32,103
Interesting.

767
00:35:32,103 --> 00:35:34,800
It just depends on where you
do it, how you do it, all of

768
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:35,508
that- Yeah … kind of stuff.

769
00:35:35,860 --> 00:35:36,085
Yeah.

770
00:35:36,085 --> 00:35:36,134
That's-

771
00:35:36,140 --> 00:35:37,484
There are places we should not do it.

772
00:35:37,527 --> 00:35:40,750
there's been a lot of stuff in the
news lately about how particularly

773
00:35:40,750 --> 00:35:44,812
European marine protected areas
allow bottom trawling, and I

774
00:35:44,812 --> 00:35:45,650
don't think we should do that.

775
00:35:46,057 --> 00:35:49,746
I think there are places we should not
bottom trawl, and even if the habitat in

776
00:35:49,747 --> 00:35:54,517
those places is not especially sensitive,
we should not allow industrial scale

777
00:35:54,518 --> 00:35:55,934
fishing in a marine protected area.

778
00:35:55,941 --> 00:35:56,975
That's the whole point of them.

779
00:35:57,449 --> 00:35:57,802
Yeah.

780
00:35:58,105 --> 00:35:58,420
Yeah.

781
00:35:58,743 --> 00:36:00,026
Yeah, no, I completely agree.

782
00:36:00,062 --> 00:36:03,178
We found that out, a while ago
where I think it was in the UK,

783
00:36:03,192 --> 00:36:04,578
they were allowing that to happen.

784
00:36:04,578 --> 00:36:07,340
And to be honest, that's
not, just a thing in the UK.

785
00:36:07,383 --> 00:36:10,439
It's happens in a lot of places-
and just becomes a paper park after

786
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,700
that because- Mm-hmm … it's not
doing what it's supposed to be doing.

787
00:36:12,976 --> 00:36:13,724
that's a good point.

788
00:36:14,018 --> 00:36:16,430
I wanna talk one more thing about-
Mm-hmm … the harms, and we're gonna

789
00:36:16,431 --> 00:36:18,120
move to solutions, and that's- Great

790
00:36:18,165 --> 00:36:19,220
another part in your book.

791
00:36:19,447 --> 00:36:21,880
which it has to do, and I have
to talk about this, is, is

792
00:36:21,926 --> 00:36:23,451
aquaculture and fish farming.

793
00:36:23,453 --> 00:36:23,463
Mm-hmm.

794
00:36:23,463 --> 00:36:26,631
And, when I approach people about
aquaculture, like, I think there's

795
00:36:26,636 --> 00:36:30,877
more aquaculture seafood now than
there is, wild fish caught in a lot of

796
00:36:30,877 --> 00:36:32,624
places, especially here in Canada, too.

797
00:36:32,916 --> 00:36:35,222
There's a big, extremes on both sides.

798
00:36:35,222 --> 00:36:39,000
There's a big gap of whether people want
aquaculture or don't want aquaculture.

799
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:39,224
Yeah.

800
00:36:39,682 --> 00:36:42,401
and I think you come out the same way
with trawling, I think you come out

801
00:36:42,401 --> 00:36:46,390
with a kind of a perspective as like
not all aquaculture is the same, and

802
00:36:46,390 --> 00:36:47,622
there's some good and there's some bad.

803
00:36:47,622 --> 00:36:50,910
So how do people know how to
detect what's good and what's bad?

804
00:36:51,328 --> 00:36:54,946
Yeah, so this is another place
where something like Seafood Watch

805
00:36:54,947 --> 00:36:58,691
recommendations can be really helpful,
or Ocean Wise recommendations, as

806
00:36:58,691 --> 00:37:01,789
well as the Marine Stewardship Council
has an aquaculture equivalent called

807
00:37:01,789 --> 00:37:06,208
the Aquaculture Stewardship Council,
where a fish farm has to follow these

808
00:37:06,209 --> 00:37:10,832
rigorous science-based, provided via
environmentalist input guidelines in

809
00:37:10,832 --> 00:37:12,145
order to be able to use the label.

810
00:37:12,530 --> 00:37:14,426
there's also a few competing ones.

811
00:37:14,429 --> 00:37:19,287
One of the ones that, I just started
using, HelloFresh meal kits here,

812
00:37:19,622 --> 00:37:23,598
and, I, got a shrimp dish and it
had a best aquaculture practices

813
00:37:23,599 --> 00:37:27,293
or BAP label on it, which is not
quite as rigorous as Aquaculture-

814
00:37:27,300 --> 00:37:30,021
Right … Stewardship Council, but
it's still, a lot better than nothing.

815
00:37:30,021 --> 00:37:30,679
Right.

816
00:37:30,679 --> 00:37:33,249
So look for these eco labels,
look for these, independent

817
00:37:33,287 --> 00:37:35,791
experts who are recommending
or not recommending something.

818
00:37:36,068 --> 00:37:39,259
And as a general rule that I teach
my students for anything related to

819
00:37:39,259 --> 00:37:42,920
this, doing this right, doing this
in a way that's less environmentally

820
00:37:42,922 --> 00:37:47,325
harmful costs more, which means they
can sell it for more, which means they

821
00:37:47,326 --> 00:37:49,271
will say, "We did this the right way.

822
00:37:49,271 --> 00:37:52,827
Please give us more money." And if they're
not doing that and it's sort of not clear

823
00:37:52,827 --> 00:37:56,664
where it came from, it's probably not
the more environmentally friendly one.

824
00:37:57,466 --> 00:37:57,789
Yeah.

825
00:37:57,845 --> 00:37:58,377
no doubt.

826
00:37:58,397 --> 00:37:59,408
I'm glad you mentioned that.

827
00:37:59,660 --> 00:38:03,967
There are a lot of more harms that I think
people should look at in the book to get

828
00:38:03,967 --> 00:38:08,820
a good perspective, and Dave's perspective
of sort of what's good and what's bad.

829
00:38:08,821 --> 00:38:12,216
Because it's not all… And they're
all complex you take a very good

830
00:38:12,216 --> 00:38:16,227
approach in it in, naming those
complexities and then also, like,

831
00:38:16,228 --> 00:38:18,132
some of the, takes that people have.

832
00:38:18,132 --> 00:38:21,039
It seems like everybody has a
take these days, but not grounded

833
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:22,160
in any kind of information.

834
00:38:22,161 --> 00:38:25,630
So, that's a great part of the
book to kind of put it together.

835
00:38:25,631 --> 00:38:27,038
But, like, I love this part.

836
00:38:27,038 --> 00:38:28,857
Like, part two is all about solutions.

837
00:38:29,201 --> 00:38:32,734
And, a good friend of ours, a mutual
friend of ours, Angelo Villagomez,

838
00:38:32,750 --> 00:38:36,657
has the line, "If you kill fewer
fish, more fish will be alive."

839
00:38:36,706 --> 00:38:36,985
Yep.

840
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,482
A lot of science really
isn't that complicated-

841
00:38:39,482 --> 00:38:41,448
if you try to explain it like you're 10.

842
00:38:42,336 --> 00:38:42,515
Yeah.

843
00:38:42,856 --> 00:38:46,695
Uh, and yeah, that's an interesting
one that always gets a few chuckles.

844
00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:49,147
And people think about it and they went,
"Oh, I just- Yeah … I just read a

845
00:38:49,147 --> 00:38:52,897
500-page fishery science textbook, and
you just summarized it in one sentence

846
00:38:52,897 --> 00:38:54,495
of elementary school vocabulary."

847
00:38:54,522 --> 00:38:57,724
the school of Angelo Villagomez
is a great school to go to.

848
00:38:57,726 --> 00:38:58,262
I, I highly recommend it.

849
00:38:58,262 --> 00:38:58,272
Yeah.

850
00:38:58,272 --> 00:38:59,223
Not everything needs to be

851
00:38:59,228 --> 00:38:59,886
complicated.

852
00:39:00,183 --> 00:39:03,455
with that said, like, what
does good fisheries management

853
00:39:03,465 --> 00:39:04,965
look like in practice?

854
00:39:04,966 --> 00:39:09,033
Because yeah, the fewer fish we
kill, the, more fish will be alive.

855
00:39:09,041 --> 00:39:11,806
But that, fisheries management
takes a lot into place.

856
00:39:11,811 --> 00:39:13,802
Without going into, like, too much detail-

857
00:39:14,008 --> 00:39:14,560
Yeah, this gets- How do

858
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:14,754
we

859
00:39:14,755 --> 00:39:14,979
know?

860
00:39:14,987 --> 00:39:16,308
… this gets mathy really fast.

861
00:39:16,874 --> 00:39:17,134
Yeah.

862
00:39:17,430 --> 00:39:17,450
Mathy fast.

863
00:39:17,450 --> 00:39:17,460
Yeah.

864
00:39:17,460 --> 00:39:20,924
Uh, but, uh, one of the, one of the,
the big goals of the book is to convince

865
00:39:20,934 --> 00:39:24,486
people that there is data and evidence
and expertise that goes into this at,

866
00:39:24,486 --> 00:39:28,577
but also make it so you don't need to
read a 300-page stock assessment every

867
00:39:28,578 --> 00:39:30,002
time you decide what's for dinner.

868
00:39:30,276 --> 00:39:32,455
But I also show you how to read
one of those if you want to.

869
00:39:32,981 --> 00:39:39,001
so a well-managed fishery is one that
has rules in place to limit the total

870
00:39:39,002 --> 00:39:43,181
catch to prevent overfishing, limits
bycatch, especially for endangered

871
00:39:43,181 --> 00:39:46,932
species, usually via gear requirements
or sometimes via you're not allowed

872
00:39:46,934 --> 00:39:49,749
to fish during this time of year when
these animals are migrating through,

873
00:39:50,202 --> 00:39:55,605
has rules in place to limit the impact
of the fishing gear on the habitat,

874
00:39:56,032 --> 00:39:58,567
and has data that informs all of that.

875
00:39:58,570 --> 00:40:00,807
So how do you know how many
fish are too many fish?

876
00:40:00,820 --> 00:40:02,882
You have to have a sense of
the population of the fish.

877
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,123
You have to know how long they
live, how big they get, how many

878
00:40:06,126 --> 00:40:07,624
babies they have, and how often.

879
00:40:08,036 --> 00:40:12,846
And once you have all that- It goes into
a science-based fisheries management plan.

880
00:40:12,877 --> 00:40:15,823
And I'll note that not everywhere
in the world has the resources

881
00:40:15,825 --> 00:40:17,113
to do something like that.

882
00:40:17,782 --> 00:40:17,930
Yeah.

883
00:40:17,930 --> 00:40:22,202
Uh, Canada, the US, the UK, Australia,
these places all have the science-based,

884
00:40:22,202 --> 00:40:25,298
data-driven fisheries management
plan to varying degrees of success.

885
00:40:25,781 --> 00:40:30,431
There's also data-limited and data-zero
fisheries, management, which is a

886
00:40:30,441 --> 00:40:33,871
newer concept that I introduce very
briefly in the book because frankly,

887
00:40:33,872 --> 00:40:35,278
I don't know that much about it.

888
00:40:35,699 --> 00:40:39,779
but there are ways of doing this even if
you don't have a multi-hundred million

889
00:40:39,779 --> 00:40:41,461
dollar research infrastructure in place.

890
00:40:41,528 --> 00:40:41,820
Right.

891
00:40:42,068 --> 00:40:42,370
Yeah.

892
00:40:42,427 --> 00:40:44,756
And like when talking about fisheries
management, I think one of the most

893
00:40:44,756 --> 00:40:47,220
important, and we've, kinda talked
about it here and there in this

894
00:40:47,220 --> 00:40:51,969
interview, but it really comes down
to the people fishing, and that's a

895
00:40:51,969 --> 00:40:55,763
complicated relationship, especially
when it deals with government

896
00:40:55,795 --> 00:40:57,714
and fishers in the first place.

897
00:40:58,128 --> 00:41:01,681
they are the ones who follow the rules,
but there's something that kinda has

898
00:41:01,681 --> 00:41:04,947
to happen for them to do that, and
that's to have that dialogue with them.

899
00:41:04,947 --> 00:41:09,563
So why is it that when, like fishermen
will actually follow the rules when

900
00:41:09,564 --> 00:41:13,063
they feel that they have that say
and they have that empowerment?

901
00:41:13,382 --> 00:41:13,595
Yeah.

902
00:41:13,599 --> 00:41:18,454
This is a really interesting element
of human behavior, that people are more

903
00:41:18,454 --> 00:41:23,138
willing to listen to decisions made at
a proverbial table if they felt that

904
00:41:23,139 --> 00:41:28,371
they had a seat at that table, even if
the decisions are not good for them.

905
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:33,360
if you just have the proverbial faraway
elitist bureaucrats telling me what

906
00:41:33,361 --> 00:41:36,579
to do without understanding anything
about what the actual conditions

907
00:41:36,583 --> 00:41:39,555
and my way of life, of course
it's easy to ignore those people.

908
00:41:39,884 --> 00:41:44,158
But when we make the process open to the
public, when we give the industry a seat

909
00:41:44,159 --> 00:41:48,879
at the table, they see how the decisions
are made, and they see, "Oh yeah, maybe

910
00:41:48,879 --> 00:41:52,722
we should cut back on fishing a little,
to help allow the stock to recover so we

911
00:41:52,724 --> 00:41:54,491
can continue to fish for years to come."

912
00:41:54,913 --> 00:41:58,926
there's crazy examples of this,
that we've just let people see.

913
00:41:58,953 --> 00:42:02,377
This is why a big, theme of all
of my work is not only here's what

914
00:42:02,378 --> 00:42:04,218
we found, but how do we know that?

915
00:42:04,625 --> 00:42:05,602
convince yourself.

916
00:42:05,621 --> 00:42:09,328
here's access to the same information,
convince yourself that this is the case.

917
00:42:09,846 --> 00:42:14,008
I think that's a really important thing,
and it's true of climate change stuff too.

918
00:42:14,008 --> 00:42:17,787
a lot of people, think that it's just
sort of liberal dogma, but you say,

919
00:42:17,787 --> 00:42:20,739
"No, no, here's how we know," and
that can help persuade some people.

920
00:42:20,741 --> 00:42:24,611
Again, not the people whose whole identity
is, "I've decided I can't be persuaded."

921
00:42:24,995 --> 00:42:25,248
Right.

922
00:42:25,253 --> 00:42:26,020
Of course, yeah.

923
00:42:26,348 --> 00:42:29,487
Now, another solution that you talk
about is marine protected areas, MPAs.

924
00:42:29,487 --> 00:42:29,497
Mm-hmm.

925
00:42:29,512 --> 00:42:31,645
I did my master's on MPA design.

926
00:42:31,688 --> 00:42:32,509
It is complex.

927
00:42:32,523 --> 00:42:34,710
It is a tool in the
conservation tool belt.

928
00:42:34,997 --> 00:42:36,090
But it's not everything.

929
00:42:36,149 --> 00:42:38,053
And you kinda talk
about that a little bit.

930
00:42:38,306 --> 00:42:40,963
And sometimes people oversell
them, like in Oceans, in the- Yes,

931
00:42:41,115 --> 00:42:42,360
that was- … in the movie, right?

932
00:42:42,361 --> 00:42:45,226
That was the other criticism I had
of that otherwise wonderful David

933
00:42:45,245 --> 00:42:48,746
Attenborough movie, is they present
these marine protected areas, which you

934
00:42:48,747 --> 00:42:52,135
can think of as a no-fishing zone or
an underwater national park, that there

935
00:42:52,137 --> 00:42:56,363
are varying degrees of rules, with them,
just as there are with parks on land.

936
00:42:56,849 --> 00:43:00,533
it was presented as an obvious solution
that will always work and always

937
00:43:00,535 --> 00:43:03,082
work quickly, and that's not true.

938
00:43:03,627 --> 00:43:07,868
a well-managed, well-designed,
well-implemented marine protected area

939
00:43:08,212 --> 00:43:11,971
is going to have more fish, bigger
fish, and more species of fish in it

940
00:43:12,237 --> 00:43:16,549
than an otherwise ecologically similar
unprotected area where fishing is allowed.

941
00:43:17,070 --> 00:43:21,056
But lots of marine protected areas
are not especially well-designed,

942
00:43:21,056 --> 00:43:22,438
well-managed, or well-implemented.

943
00:43:22,768 --> 00:43:25,659
like the ones we mentioned earlier,
that these European marine protected

944
00:43:25,659 --> 00:43:27,149
areas that allow bottom trawling.

945
00:43:27,665 --> 00:43:31,302
But also there's sometimes examples
that are way dumber than that.

946
00:43:31,758 --> 00:43:32,029
Mm-hmm.

947
00:43:32,029 --> 00:43:36,604
Uh, that my students are always shocked
when I share examples of marine protected

948
00:43:36,605 --> 00:43:41,081
areas that got a lot of positive publicity
in some small island developing states or

949
00:43:41,090 --> 00:43:46,567
some- Australia did this for a while too,
that they got a lot of positive publicity

950
00:43:46,568 --> 00:43:49,577
because we're making this plan to save
this beloved endangered species, we're

951
00:43:49,577 --> 00:43:53,616
making a marine protected area, but that
species doesn't live there, never did,

952
00:43:53,616 --> 00:43:58,925
and never will And like, duh, obviously
that's not gonna help that species.

953
00:43:58,927 --> 00:43:59,953
It's not there.

954
00:44:00,507 --> 00:44:00,843
Right.

955
00:44:01,146 --> 00:44:06,169
So it also can take a really long time
for past environmental damage to recover,

956
00:44:06,169 --> 00:44:07,885
especially if there are other stressors.

957
00:44:08,053 --> 00:44:11,267
Marine protected areas don't do
anything to help against oil spills or

958
00:44:11,267 --> 00:44:13,306
climate change or ocean acidification.

959
00:44:13,835 --> 00:44:15,104
they're a very powerful tool.

960
00:44:15,104 --> 00:44:16,867
They work really well-
Yeah … if they're done right.

961
00:44:17,121 --> 00:44:18,988
They're often not done right,
and they can't do everything.

962
00:44:19,323 --> 00:44:19,884
Exactly.

963
00:44:19,912 --> 00:44:20,950
There are certain goals.

964
00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:24,484
Usually it's protecting biodiversity
and helping with fisheries, for

965
00:44:24,486 --> 00:44:26,671
spillover effect, and they're
usually quite good at that.

966
00:44:26,671 --> 00:44:29,155
Like you said, if that's the
goal and that's what the reach

967
00:44:29,157 --> 00:44:30,355
is, you have to go with that.

968
00:44:30,367 --> 00:44:31,907
They're not an all-in-one tool.

969
00:44:31,908 --> 00:44:34,180
They can't do everything with
imaginary borders, it's just,

970
00:44:34,180 --> 00:44:35,726
physically impossible to do everything.

971
00:44:35,734 --> 00:44:37,451
So that's a great, explanation of that.

972
00:44:37,709 --> 00:44:43,891
there was an interesting, ruling in
Louisiana recently in the US where, I

973
00:44:43,892 --> 00:44:48,232
believe they're called, skimmer trawlers,
who never had a sea turtle exclusion

974
00:44:48,233 --> 00:44:50,501
device on, but they're now mandated.

975
00:44:50,501 --> 00:44:52,331
I think it says-
Yeah … ships over 40 feet.

976
00:44:52,345 --> 00:44:52,916
That was new.

977
00:44:52,916 --> 00:44:54,491
I covered it on our YouTube channel.

978
00:44:54,495 --> 00:44:54,506
Mm-hmm.

979
00:44:54,886 --> 00:44:58,679
and I think it's interesting when we
talk about, turtle excluder devices,

980
00:44:58,736 --> 00:45:00,847
like they call them TEDs essentially.

981
00:45:01,113 --> 00:45:02,398
can you talk a little bit about them?

982
00:45:02,399 --> 00:45:05,817
'Cause they are a good solution
to help with sea turtle bycatch.

983
00:45:05,838 --> 00:45:07,597
Can you talk a little-
Yes … a little bit about them?

984
00:45:07,808 --> 00:45:13,822
So the leading threat to sea turtles in
the '70s, '80s, '90s used to be bycatch,

985
00:45:13,843 --> 00:45:17,787
that they were caught in these shrimp
trawl nets, and then they drowned.

986
00:45:18,233 --> 00:45:18,477
Mm-hmm.

987
00:45:18,506 --> 00:45:19,939
Uh, because sea turtles are not fish.

988
00:45:19,940 --> 00:45:21,368
They need to breathe air at the surface.

989
00:45:21,372 --> 00:45:22,096
They don't have gills.

990
00:45:22,576 --> 00:45:26,721
And then this solution is, a
gear modification that gets sewn

991
00:45:26,761 --> 00:45:30,562
into the net itself, and it's
basically a weighted trapdoor.

992
00:45:30,898 --> 00:45:33,983
And a shrimp is not heavy
enough to trigger the trapdoor,

993
00:45:33,985 --> 00:45:35,039
so it still gets caught.

994
00:45:35,423 --> 00:45:38,351
And a sea turtle is heavy enough
to trigger the trapdoor, so it

995
00:45:38,351 --> 00:45:41,833
gets shunted out of the net and is
fine, yet may have minor bruises.

996
00:45:42,258 --> 00:45:48,258
And this works unbelievably well because
it, not only saves tens of thousands of

997
00:45:48,258 --> 00:45:52,595
sea turtles a year, but it also doesn't
reduce your shrimp catch that much.

998
00:45:53,032 --> 00:45:56,936
Like, if I were to tell you of a
solution that would save all the sea

999
00:45:56,936 --> 00:45:59,311
turtles, but it would mean you're not
gonna catch any shrimp, shrimpers aren't

1000
00:45:59,312 --> 00:46:01,571
gonna use that This doesn't do that.

1001
00:46:01,615 --> 00:46:03,225
They are kind of annoying to use.

1002
00:46:03,225 --> 00:46:05,189
It's a heavy piece of
metal that goes in a net.

1003
00:46:05,637 --> 00:46:07,326
but it's, no, it works.

1004
00:46:07,783 --> 00:46:11,346
And it's not that expensive, you get
used to it, and it, totally solves the

1005
00:46:11,346 --> 00:46:13,049
problem without reducing shrimp catch.

1006
00:46:13,510 --> 00:46:18,632
this loophole was that relatively small
boats were not required to use these.

1007
00:46:19,117 --> 00:46:23,551
And the reasoning for that is, "Eh,
they're small, who cares?" Mm-hmm.

1008
00:46:23,551 --> 00:46:26,500
"It, it's the big guys we need to
worry about." But when there's a lot of

1009
00:46:26,500 --> 00:46:28,276
small boats, it's still a big problem

1010
00:46:28,699 --> 00:46:29,053
Yeah.

1011
00:46:29,205 --> 00:46:32,361
and in that story it was interesting
because there was a very big discrepancy

1012
00:46:32,362 --> 00:46:35,933
between the state collected data and the
federally collected data in terms of how

1013
00:46:35,933 --> 00:46:39,369
many sea turtles were being caught in
a order of magnitude or even a couple

1014
00:46:39,370 --> 00:46:41,236
of orders of magnitude of difference.

1015
00:46:41,246 --> 00:46:43,636
So it's, kinda interesting to see
that court ruling, especially in

1016
00:46:43,642 --> 00:46:45,648
these days of policymaking in the US.

1017
00:46:45,651 --> 00:46:48,473
But it was, nice to see that, these
sea turtles are being looked out for.

1018
00:46:48,474 --> 00:46:51,877
The last solution I wanna talk
quickly about, as one of the ways

1019
00:46:51,879 --> 00:46:55,748
that we can monitor what's happening
on boats is fisheries observers.

1020
00:46:55,762 --> 00:46:57,986
You know- Yeah … I've worked as a
marine mammal observer in the past.

1021
00:46:57,986 --> 00:47:00,299
I've had friends who work
for fisheries observer.

1022
00:47:00,299 --> 00:47:03,951
It's always a great job when you first
come out of university to go out and

1023
00:47:03,951 --> 00:47:06,991
get experience, learn, the building
relationships with fishers and stuff.

1024
00:47:07,196 --> 00:47:12,044
But it's not always easy, and there
have been some very, sad stories

1025
00:47:12,091 --> 00:47:16,302
of people disappearing, on boats in
the past, internationally, feeling

1026
00:47:16,318 --> 00:47:19,617
threatened, and for a variety of
reasons, but especially for, like,

1027
00:47:19,759 --> 00:47:22,156
we-- as observers, you're reporting.

1028
00:47:22,237 --> 00:47:24,647
You know, you're- Yes … reporting on
what's being caught, how those fish are

1029
00:47:24,649 --> 00:47:25,968
being treated, all that kind of stuff.

1030
00:47:26,249 --> 00:47:30,054
can you talk about their role in, like,
that conservation or that fisheries

1031
00:47:30,055 --> 00:47:31,590
management and why it's so important?

1032
00:47:32,072 --> 00:47:32,348
Yeah.

1033
00:47:32,348 --> 00:47:35,586
So for any data-driven,
evidence-based conservation

1034
00:47:35,591 --> 00:47:37,169
plan, you need to have the data.

1035
00:47:37,665 --> 00:47:42,190
And how do we know how many sea turtles
are being caught in shrimp trawl nets?

1036
00:47:42,199 --> 00:47:44,410
How do we know how many dolphins
are caught in tuna nets?

1037
00:47:44,807 --> 00:47:46,524
someone needs to check.

1038
00:47:46,942 --> 00:47:50,444
And relying on the fishermen
themselves to check and accurately

1039
00:47:50,444 --> 00:47:53,774
report it is a problem, because
they have the perverse incentive to

1040
00:47:53,774 --> 00:47:55,026
say, "Nope, we did nothing wrong.

1041
00:47:55,214 --> 00:47:58,639
We don't need to change anything." So
the solution has been these fisheries

1042
00:47:58,642 --> 00:48:02,631
observers, which are independent
third-party observers, whose job it is

1043
00:48:02,637 --> 00:48:05,978
to just document everything, and it gets
sent to a central clearing house and

1044
00:48:05,980 --> 00:48:08,153
eventually to governments, to just track.

1045
00:48:08,632 --> 00:48:08,859
Mm-hmm.

1046
00:48:08,871 --> 00:48:11,280
And as you said, this
can be a wonderful job.

1047
00:48:11,353 --> 00:48:14,913
it's probably the highest paying
job that you can get with right out

1048
00:48:14,913 --> 00:48:16,607
of undergraduate marine biology.

1049
00:48:16,683 --> 00:48:17,369
Absolutely.

1050
00:48:17,424 --> 00:48:19,309
and you'll get tons of time on the water.

1051
00:48:19,310 --> 00:48:21,030
You'll get tons of experience.

1052
00:48:21,438 --> 00:48:24,443
but it can be dangerous,
especially for women.

1053
00:48:24,944 --> 00:48:26,107
Mm-hmm … for anyone.

1054
00:48:26,124 --> 00:48:29,520
you might be the only human being
for miles who does not work for

1055
00:48:29,521 --> 00:48:33,338
that fishing boat, and some of
those people do not want you there.

1056
00:48:33,634 --> 00:48:34,034
Right.

1057
00:48:34,126 --> 00:48:36,999
there have been people disappeared,
there have been people threatened,

1058
00:48:37,054 --> 00:48:40,393
there have been people bribed, it's
not common in the US or Canada.

1059
00:48:40,393 --> 00:48:40,404
No.

1060
00:48:40,404 --> 00:48:42,543
It does happen a lot more
in, the Global South.

1061
00:48:42,549 --> 00:48:42,564
Yeah.

1062
00:48:42,959 --> 00:48:43,965
There are issues with it.

1063
00:48:43,976 --> 00:48:47,706
So one emerging solution to this
is electronic fisheries monitoring.

1064
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:48,147
Mm-hmm.

1065
00:48:48,147 --> 00:48:51,897
Which is basically, cameras set up
on the back deck that are, precise

1066
00:48:51,897 --> 00:48:54,761
enough and clear enough and HD enough
that you can see exactly what's being

1067
00:48:54,762 --> 00:48:58,340
caught, and then someone gets emailed
those files and they- Mm-hmm … sit

1068
00:48:58,340 --> 00:49:02,250
in an office somewhere where they
can't be threatened, and monitor it.

1069
00:49:02,610 --> 00:49:04,289
Yeah … fishermen like these.

1070
00:49:04,289 --> 00:49:04,302
Right.

1071
00:49:04,624 --> 00:49:07,716
in my experience, they think that, most
fishermen who I've worked with love

1072
00:49:07,716 --> 00:49:09,745
gadgets, and this is a really cool gadget.

1073
00:49:10,075 --> 00:49:11,545
They're expensive at first.

1074
00:49:11,779 --> 00:49:11,888
Mm-hmm.

1075
00:49:11,893 --> 00:49:13,341
But you don't need to feed them.

1076
00:49:13,356 --> 00:49:14,157
You don't need to- Yeah

1077
00:49:14,157 --> 00:49:15,305
provide a bunk for them.

1078
00:49:15,707 --> 00:49:20,137
Like weirdly this must have
happened either a lot of times or,

1079
00:49:20,242 --> 00:49:23,301
was so annoying that it's become
legend in the fishing community.

1080
00:49:23,611 --> 00:49:26,105
But several of the fishing captains
who I've spoken with have said,

1081
00:49:26,474 --> 00:49:29,729
"Every fishing observer has some
sort of goofy dietary restriction."

1082
00:49:29,730 --> 00:49:32,485
And like, "We've, we've been cooking
the same food for years, and now

1083
00:49:32,486 --> 00:49:35,225
I have to cook this separate meal
just for them. It's annoying." You

1084
00:49:35,226 --> 00:49:36,736
don't have to do that for, a camera.

1085
00:49:37,136 --> 00:49:37,899
Exactly.

1086
00:49:37,899 --> 00:49:41,326
Like, just to kinda give, a heads-up,
for those of you who are thinking

1087
00:49:41,326 --> 00:49:44,869
of doing fisheries observers, it's
a great opportunity, but also talk

1088
00:49:44,869 --> 00:49:46,329
to people who have done it before.

1089
00:49:46,374 --> 00:49:47,572
It is not an easy life.

1090
00:49:47,631 --> 00:49:50,014
You're six months on, six months
off a lot of the times, or

1091
00:49:50,014 --> 00:49:51,067
two months on, two months off.

1092
00:49:51,327 --> 00:49:55,134
But talk about safety, talk about what
to expect, talk about what you need

1093
00:49:55,136 --> 00:49:58,650
in terms of, safety certifications
and things like that, just to make

1094
00:49:58,650 --> 00:50:01,298
sure that you enjoy your time on
there, and you get on the right boat,

1095
00:50:01,298 --> 00:50:02,709
and you work with the right company.

1096
00:50:02,721 --> 00:50:06,278
As Dave said, like, US, and Canada they
have a lot of regulations around that,

1097
00:50:06,298 --> 00:50:08,662
and the boats are usually pretty good, and
the people on the boats are pretty good.

1098
00:50:08,663 --> 00:50:11,931
But also just keep an eye out that,
there can be some major problems.

1099
00:50:11,973 --> 00:50:14,543
Now, Dave, we've talked a lot about
the labels, which is part three of

1100
00:50:14,544 --> 00:50:17,629
your book, which I, first of all,
I love the way you're going through

1101
00:50:17,901 --> 00:50:19,274
and doing the parts in the book.

1102
00:50:19,288 --> 00:50:19,493
Mm-hmm.

1103
00:50:19,493 --> 00:50:21,579
Going from like, "Here are the
harms, here's the solutions- Yeah, so

1104
00:50:21,614 --> 00:50:24,760
I- … here are the labels" … I like to
build a persuasive argument step by step.

1105
00:50:24,762 --> 00:50:24,772
Yeah.

1106
00:50:24,772 --> 00:50:27,309
And that's something that I spend
a lot of time on social media,

1107
00:50:27,309 --> 00:50:28,605
a lot of time on social media.

1108
00:50:29,011 --> 00:50:32,361
And I find that people are not good
at this important skill anymore.

1109
00:50:32,704 --> 00:50:36,517
It's just like I say a slogan, and
you quibble about it, or you just

1110
00:50:36,517 --> 00:50:39,361
tell me I'm a fascist 'cause I don't
agree with your alternative slogan.

1111
00:50:40,252 --> 00:50:42,961
And, that's not how you
win hearts and minds.

1112
00:50:43,426 --> 00:50:43,925
Right.

1113
00:50:44,138 --> 00:50:44,524
Yeah.

1114
00:50:44,632 --> 00:50:45,506
No, that makes sense.

1115
00:50:45,510 --> 00:50:46,640
that makes complete sense.

1116
00:50:46,957 --> 00:50:47,811
And so I love this.

1117
00:50:47,820 --> 00:50:50,609
Now we're at the part, like we've
talked about the labels, and I think

1118
00:50:50,609 --> 00:50:52,461
there's a lot of guides in there, and
there's a lot of stuff- Mm-hmm … that

1119
00:50:52,461 --> 00:50:53,957
you can look in from worldwide.

1120
00:50:53,957 --> 00:50:57,298
it seems like every country- Mm-hmm
… seems to have their own kind of way.

1121
00:50:57,317 --> 00:50:57,625
And,

1122
00:50:57,967 --> 00:51:01,138
um- Yes, to, to varying
degrees of, data-drivennes.

1123
00:51:01,190 --> 00:51:04,701
but yes- Right … there are, there are
sustainable seafood guides to a lot of,

1124
00:51:05,091 --> 00:51:06,616
coastal countries all over the world.

1125
00:51:06,616 --> 00:51:11,358
the Europe, Canada, the US, and Australia
have probably the most rigorous ones,

1126
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,508
but any of them- Right … you're better
off doing that than not following it.

1127
00:51:14,676 --> 00:51:15,759
Than not doing it, for sure.

1128
00:51:16,030 --> 00:51:18,461
Now, well, I want to talk, to
get to the part of at the counter

1129
00:51:18,463 --> 00:51:22,607
because a lot of us, whether we're
scientists or we're non-scientists,

1130
00:51:22,888 --> 00:51:25,997
conservationists, non-conservationists,
just wanna know what's gonna happen.

1131
00:51:26,304 --> 00:51:30,974
I think a lot of us are at the approach of
when we get to the counter, it can kinda

1132
00:51:30,982 --> 00:51:34,495
get confusing and things move quickly,
and the person behind the counter- Yes

1133
00:51:34,867 --> 00:51:37,439
may not be as informed as
maybe- They might not know

1134
00:51:37,441 --> 00:51:39,049
anything … the consumer, right?

1135
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,670
'Cause it could be- Yeah … like a
teenager- So- … working for minimum

1136
00:51:41,670 --> 00:51:43,685
wage just trying to get through their day.

1137
00:51:43,708 --> 00:51:44,458
You know what I mean?

1138
00:51:44,867 --> 00:51:45,179
Yeah.

1139
00:51:45,190 --> 00:51:50,005
So I actually have my students do a
lab where they go to a local grocery

1140
00:51:50,006 --> 00:51:55,100
store, pick seafood items at random,
and try to use these tools to determine

1141
00:51:55,361 --> 00:51:57,246
whether or not, they're sustainable.

1142
00:51:57,458 --> 00:52:00,613
And an instruction that I had to add
after the first year that I never

1143
00:52:00,613 --> 00:52:04,526
would've thought I would have to
explicitly say is, "If you ask a

1144
00:52:04,528 --> 00:52:10,314
grocery store employee for help, please
ask nicely." 'Cause people get so

1145
00:52:10,314 --> 00:52:13,566
frustrated, like if they say, "Wait,
is this skipjack or yellowjack tuna?

1146
00:52:13,568 --> 00:52:15,464
Is this pole-and-line caught
or, purse seine caught?"

1147
00:52:15,527 --> 00:52:18,497
And the person doesn't know,
they're not your enemy.

1148
00:52:18,975 --> 00:52:21,614
That meant- Mm … that what I might
recommend in that case is maybe don't

1149
00:52:21,615 --> 00:52:25,797
get that tuna, but- Right … you don't
yell at the grocery store employee.

1150
00:52:25,810 --> 00:52:26,456
My God.

1151
00:52:26,975 --> 00:52:27,357
No.

1152
00:52:27,625 --> 00:52:28,556
Yeah, you still have to be polite.

1153
00:52:28,556 --> 00:52:31,163
You have to understand everybody's human,
everybody's trying to do their thing,

1154
00:52:31,164 --> 00:52:35,962
and sometimes it could be up to, the
employer to kind of inform the people.

1155
00:52:35,979 --> 00:52:39,003
'Cause there are certain people
that are at grocery stores that know

1156
00:52:39,004 --> 00:52:41,236
seafood, and they are really into this.

1157
00:52:41,236 --> 00:52:41,255
Yeah.

1158
00:52:41,255 --> 00:52:42,313
I've, come across them.

1159
00:52:42,581 --> 00:52:45,440
They're few and far between, but they
know their seafood 'cause they care about

1160
00:52:45,441 --> 00:52:46,985
their job and they care about seafood.

1161
00:52:46,985 --> 00:52:49,990
But it's not always the case, and I think
you're right, you have to be patient

1162
00:52:49,990 --> 00:52:51,639
with a lot of the people, around that.

1163
00:52:51,659 --> 00:52:55,442
Can you tell the story of the scuba diver
in the Bahamas who loved eating local?

1164
00:52:55,858 --> 00:52:56,384
Oh, my God.

1165
00:52:56,384 --> 00:52:56,394
I

1166
00:52:56,394 --> 00:52:56,486
like

1167
00:52:56,495 --> 00:52:56,596
this story.

1168
00:52:56,596 --> 00:53:00,241
Yeah, so this is, like, almost an
apocryphal story, but I promise it's

1169
00:53:00,241 --> 00:53:01,682
a thing that really happened to me.

1170
00:53:02,119 --> 00:53:07,303
That I go- … on a lot of scuba vacations
all over the world, and I remember one

1171
00:53:07,303 --> 00:53:11,291
time I was going out on the boat in the
morning, and we were excited to get out

1172
00:53:11,292 --> 00:53:14,897
to the reef and go diving, and there
was another guy who was staying at the

1173
00:53:14,897 --> 00:53:17,032
same resort as us, and we were chatting.

1174
00:53:17,306 --> 00:53:20,844
The whole boat ride out, he was saying,
"Oh, I love to come to the islands

1175
00:53:20,845 --> 00:53:24,587
and eat all the fresh-caught local
seafood I can get." And then we went

1176
00:53:24,587 --> 00:53:28,109
diving, and on the boat ride back, he
said, Wow, there's a lot fewer fish

1177
00:53:28,110 --> 00:53:31,250
on the reef than I remember." Like,
yeah, dude, 'cause you ate them- Mm

1178
00:53:31,250 --> 00:53:32,883
and were just talking about that.

1179
00:53:33,099 --> 00:53:37,765
What do you think local caught means,
if not, from this geographic area?

1180
00:53:38,231 --> 00:53:41,790
Yeah, it's interesting too, especially
places where there's a lot of visitors

1181
00:53:41,791 --> 00:53:44,705
and tourism where people are going and
they want locally caught because they

1182
00:53:44,707 --> 00:53:48,644
want some fresh seafood, and, that could
be taxing on a local environment that

1183
00:53:48,671 --> 00:53:50,643
maybe not get replenished after a while.

1184
00:53:50,759 --> 00:53:51,744
Yeah, very interesting.

1185
00:53:52,128 --> 00:53:55,481
a lot of people are now, especially
in the US, in the Caribbean,

1186
00:53:55,488 --> 00:53:56,890
are into eating lionfish.

1187
00:53:56,892 --> 00:53:59,503
They're an invasive species here
in, the Atlantic and the Caribbean.

1188
00:53:59,859 --> 00:54:01,194
Yeah … is that a good way?

1189
00:54:01,195 --> 00:54:02,751
Like, there's derbies and stuff like that.

1190
00:54:02,762 --> 00:54:05,978
Is it a good way to deal
with invasive species?

1191
00:54:05,982 --> 00:54:08,009
Should we be eating more
lionfish in the Atlantic?

1192
00:54:08,490 --> 00:54:11,621
And where I am in the Washington,
DC area, blue catfish are the big

1193
00:54:11,621 --> 00:54:15,583
invasive, And blue catfish, by the
way, get way bigger than people think.

1194
00:54:15,625 --> 00:54:18,836
my colleague Dr. Noah Bresman
at Salisbury University, the

1195
00:54:18,845 --> 00:54:24,230
biggest one that they caught, had
in its stomach two whole ducks.

1196
00:54:24,683 --> 00:54:27,637
Like this is a stream
fish that is eating ducks.

1197
00:54:28,137 --> 00:54:32,464
So yeah, from a sustainability
perspective, there's really not a

1198
00:54:32,466 --> 00:54:36,241
better option than killing something
that we do not want to be there.

1199
00:54:36,254 --> 00:54:39,192
So it would actually not be a problem
if we were to overfish these species.

1200
00:54:39,220 --> 00:54:40,432
We want to remove them.

1201
00:54:40,935 --> 00:54:43,155
Is it effective at keeping
their numbers under control?

1202
00:54:43,156 --> 00:54:45,552
It's a lot better than doing nothing,
and I don't know if there's a better-

1203
00:54:45,552 --> 00:54:47,052
Right … solution other than prevention.

1204
00:54:47,544 --> 00:54:47,885
Right.

1205
00:54:47,885 --> 00:54:48,466
Exactly.

1206
00:54:48,467 --> 00:54:51,192
And that's difficult once they've
already established a population in

1207
00:54:51,193 --> 00:54:52,590
certain spots, especially lionfish.

1208
00:54:52,590 --> 00:54:55,760
You go diving, you and I dive, we see
it probably everywhere in the Caribbean,

1209
00:54:55,810 --> 00:54:58,829
they're beautiful fish, but they don't
belong in where we're going diving.

1210
00:54:58,829 --> 00:55:01,299
If you're in the Southeast
Pacific, sure, go ahead.

1211
00:55:01,301 --> 00:55:01,997
That's always great.

1212
00:55:01,999 --> 00:55:04,274
But, when they're in the
Atlantic Caribbean, yeah,

1213
00:55:04,274 --> 00:55:05,879
they're kinda wreaking havoc.

1214
00:55:06,134 --> 00:55:07,425
Wildly destructive fish.

1215
00:55:07,429 --> 00:55:07,762
Yeah.

1216
00:55:08,099 --> 00:55:09,493
Yeah, exactly.

1217
00:55:09,688 --> 00:55:12,615
Now, one thing that I've noticed in
the book is, like, you leave animal

1218
00:55:12,616 --> 00:55:16,132
welfare out of your framework,
including, like, octopus and fish

1219
00:55:16,135 --> 00:55:18,997
pain, which some people study and
they, bring up every once in a while.

1220
00:55:19,302 --> 00:55:25,260
How do you explain that to people who,
feel strongly about looking at the welfare

1221
00:55:25,260 --> 00:55:27,814
of how fish and others are treated?

1222
00:55:28,242 --> 00:55:28,615
Yeah.

1223
00:55:28,651 --> 00:55:31,984
If you are someone for whom
that's a priority, then maybe

1224
00:55:31,984 --> 00:55:33,061
don't eat some of these things.

1225
00:55:33,404 --> 00:55:36,689
But from- Mm-hmm … my perspective as
a conservation scientist, I am worried

1226
00:55:36,691 --> 00:55:38,535
about the extinction of whole species.

1227
00:55:38,862 --> 00:55:40,748
I am not worried- Right … about
the suffering of a few

1228
00:55:40,748 --> 00:55:42,392
individuals of those species.

1229
00:55:42,392 --> 00:55:42,639
Right.

1230
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:44,752
It just does not factor into my worldview.

1231
00:55:45,192 --> 00:55:47,187
I'm not saying it's wrong,
I'm not saying it's bad.

1232
00:55:47,190 --> 00:55:47,325
Right.

1233
00:55:47,325 --> 00:55:49,323
I'm saying I am agnostic on this issue.

1234
00:55:49,649 --> 00:55:54,440
and most of the sustainable seafood guides
that are out there don't discuss this.

1235
00:55:54,503 --> 00:55:56,694
it's are we overfishing too many of them?

1236
00:55:56,714 --> 00:55:58,459
Are we killing things-
Right … as bycatch?

1237
00:55:58,918 --> 00:56:02,310
Is it pleasant for a fish that's caught
in a net with a bunch of other fish?

1238
00:56:02,323 --> 00:56:03,012
Probably not.

1239
00:56:03,489 --> 00:56:06,785
There are also people who strongly
believe that fish obviously

1240
00:56:06,785 --> 00:56:09,335
don't feel pain because they're
lower vertebrates or whatever.

1241
00:56:09,693 --> 00:56:10,572
I don't really care.

1242
00:56:10,636 --> 00:56:12,978
It just doesn't factor
into my value system.

1243
00:56:13,302 --> 00:56:17,064
If fish did- Right … feel pain,
it doesn't mean that we have to give

1244
00:56:17,064 --> 00:56:21,339
them up because they're a critical
protein source for billions of humans.

1245
00:56:21,339 --> 00:56:21,349
Mm-hmm.

1246
00:56:21,606 --> 00:56:23,888
If fish did not- Right … feel
pain, it doesn't mean we could

1247
00:56:23,889 --> 00:56:25,101
torture them for no reason.

1248
00:56:25,483 --> 00:56:28,123
It does not factor into my-
Yeah … value system as a

1249
00:56:28,193 --> 00:56:29,675
evidence-based conservationist.

1250
00:56:30,076 --> 00:56:30,430
Gotcha.

1251
00:56:30,433 --> 00:56:32,997
And I think also too, it's like
you, kinda mentioned it like, , a

1252
00:56:33,029 --> 00:56:33,994
really interesting perspective.

1253
00:56:33,994 --> 00:56:35,671
It's like we're almost at a point
where it's like we just wanna

1254
00:56:35,671 --> 00:56:37,724
make sure they're still there, so

1255
00:56:37,725 --> 00:56:41,056
obviously at one point, hopefully we
can get to the more focused on the

1256
00:56:41,056 --> 00:56:44,444
welfare at some point, but we gotta
make sure that these fish are still

1257
00:56:44,728 --> 00:56:48,587
there and not overfished, and going the
wayside and, continue to be overfished.

1258
00:56:48,637 --> 00:56:50,339
It's a good, uh, way of putting it.

1259
00:56:50,340 --> 00:56:54,707
It's not the fact that it's not an issue,
it's the fact of like where are the

1260
00:56:54,708 --> 00:56:58,499
priorities in terms of what we're looking
at for, fisheries management and stuff.

1261
00:56:58,512 --> 00:57:01,280
and obviously certain people care
more about it than others, but I

1262
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:02,564
like the way you approach that.

1263
00:57:02,768 --> 00:57:05,260
Now last thing I wanna talk
about, in terms of just going

1264
00:57:05,260 --> 00:57:09,301
over through these, like the
counter, Greenpeace has a red list.

1265
00:57:09,302 --> 00:57:11,875
Like it's, not a red list as
in the IUCN Red List, but it-

1266
00:57:11,875 --> 00:57:14,092
Mm-hmm … more of like what you
should eat and what you shouldn't.

1267
00:57:14,445 --> 00:57:17,241
Now, all sharks are on that red list.

1268
00:57:17,241 --> 00:57:18,050
They don't think you should be- Yep

1269
00:57:18,050 --> 00:57:18,875
eating any shark.

1270
00:57:18,897 --> 00:57:22,890
You've talked in the past and I'm sure you
continue to talk about this, but that even

1271
00:57:22,890 --> 00:57:28,425
in the US there are specific, fisheries
in, sharks, that are sustainably managed.

1272
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:31,486
and I think that's difficult for some
people to- Yes … wrap their head

1273
00:57:31,489 --> 00:57:35,371
around because we keep talking about
how, sharks are overfished worldwide.

1274
00:57:35,657 --> 00:57:38,483
can you talk about like why you
don't agree with the Greenpeace red

1275
00:57:38,483 --> 00:57:42,292
list to avoid all sharks, but also
to this sustainably, that shark

1276
00:57:42,306 --> 00:57:44,294
fisheries could be sustainably managed?

1277
00:57:44,764 --> 00:57:45,151
Yes.

1278
00:57:45,451 --> 00:57:50,841
So, the Greenpeace list of if they
see a grocery store selling this

1279
00:57:50,841 --> 00:57:55,597
species at all, that grocery store is
therefore bad, I think is oversimplified

1280
00:57:55,609 --> 00:57:57,450
to the point of being not helpful.

1281
00:57:57,795 --> 00:58:01,726
There are certainly some species that
are problematic, and if I see them,

1282
00:58:01,814 --> 00:58:05,068
it's gonna give me, raise some doubt
for me about that grocery store.

1283
00:58:05,403 --> 00:58:09,281
But for almost everything on the
Greenpeace list, sustainable sources

1284
00:58:09,297 --> 00:58:11,521
exist according to all the other guides.

1285
00:58:11,522 --> 00:58:15,194
That there are Marine Stewardship
Council, certified fisheries for

1286
00:58:15,198 --> 00:58:16,523
several of the things that are on there.

1287
00:58:16,523 --> 00:58:20,524
There are Seafood Watch green or at least
yellow recommendations for several of

1288
00:58:20,524 --> 00:58:23,683
the species that Greenpeace says, "No
one should ever eat this. There's not

1289
00:58:23,684 --> 00:58:28,024
a sustainable source that exists." And
I think there is simplifying stuff to

1290
00:58:28,025 --> 00:58:31,355
make it understandable, and there is
simplifying something so much that it's

1291
00:58:31,368 --> 00:58:34,498
wrong, and it's a fine line to walk.

1292
00:58:34,879 --> 00:58:38,198
With sharks specifically,
unsustainable fishing practices are

1293
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:39,646
the number one threat to sharks.

1294
00:58:39,938 --> 00:58:43,319
Among- sharks are some of the most
threatened animals in the world,

1295
00:58:43,714 --> 00:58:47,787
and among threatened species of
sharks, 100% of them list overfishing

1296
00:58:47,797 --> 00:58:49,030
among their top three threats.

1297
00:58:49,564 --> 00:58:52,941
It's a big problem, but that doesn't mean
there's no such thing as a sustainable

1298
00:58:52,941 --> 00:58:55,024
fishery for sharks, because there is.

1299
00:58:55,452 --> 00:58:59,704
they exist, again, in primarily in these
places that have these well-resourced

1300
00:58:59,704 --> 00:59:01,409
natural resource management regimes.

1301
00:59:01,867 --> 00:59:06,899
but Seafood Watch recommends some, MSC has
certified some, some of these other guides

1302
00:59:06,900 --> 00:59:08,280
that I talked about have certified some.

1303
00:59:08,281 --> 00:59:09,636
It's not just me saying this.

1304
00:59:09,938 --> 00:59:12,034
sustainable fisheries for sharks are real.

1305
00:59:12,583 --> 00:59:14,187
That doesn't mean that's
what we should do.

1306
00:59:14,232 --> 00:59:16,936
you can say- Right … "I love sharks
and it makes me sad to see a shark

1307
00:59:16,945 --> 00:59:20,579
hurt, so I won't ever eat shark even
if it's sustainable." That's fine,

1308
00:59:20,785 --> 00:59:22,010
but that's different from- That's,

1309
00:59:22,010 --> 00:59:22,020
that's

1310
00:59:22,020 --> 00:59:22,129
their

1311
00:59:22,129 --> 00:59:24,537
choice … there's no such thing
as a sustainable shark fishery.

1312
00:59:25,077 --> 00:59:25,499
Gotcha.

1313
00:59:25,869 --> 00:59:27,087
Nope, that makes perfect sense.

1314
00:59:27,425 --> 00:59:30,883
as we kinda close up here, the person
listening to this interview, the

1315
00:59:30,884 --> 00:59:33,991
person who's gonna buy your book,
they want to do the best they can.

1316
00:59:34,412 --> 00:59:37,905
Let's set expectations for them
in terms- Mm-hmm … of what

1317
00:59:37,905 --> 00:59:39,164
they can actually accomplish.

1318
00:59:39,186 --> 00:59:41,463
Because I think a lot of the times
when we talk about conservation,

1319
00:59:41,466 --> 00:59:43,080
like it comes down to the individual.

1320
00:59:43,091 --> 00:59:45,108
Like, we need to do
this- as an individual.

1321
00:59:45,108 --> 00:59:47,834
And one of them is buying
sustainably caught seafood.

1322
00:59:48,164 --> 00:59:48,396
Mm-hmm.

1323
00:59:48,428 --> 00:59:52,885
What can people expect when they go to
that supermarket and expect that they can

1324
00:59:52,888 --> 00:59:56,325
do, and not get disappointed about what
they may or may not, or maybe they have

1325
00:59:56,325 --> 00:59:57,928
a bad experience or something like that.

1326
00:59:57,928 --> 01:00:00,575
Let's prepare them- Yeah … in
terms of what they can do.

1327
01:00:00,865 --> 01:00:04,206
what is the role of an individual
in ocean conservation is actually a

1328
01:00:04,206 --> 01:00:08,757
question I just asked in my scuba diving
magazine column, Ask a Marine Biologist.

1329
01:00:09,017 --> 01:00:13,311
And what I said there is, yes, one person
making different choices can absolutely

1330
01:00:13,311 --> 01:00:17,149
make a difference, especially if there's
tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands

1331
01:00:17,149 --> 01:00:20,800
or millions of people all making the same
choice as part of a coordinated- Mm-hmm

1332
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:21,298
campaign.

1333
01:00:21,314 --> 01:00:24,257
And that's what we're seeing with
these sustainable seafood choices.

1334
01:00:24,495 --> 01:00:27,138
If you are the only person in the
world who cares about this, you

1335
01:00:27,151 --> 01:00:30,057
not eating lobster is not gonna put
pressure on the lobster fishery.

1336
01:00:30,316 --> 01:00:33,930
But if everyone starts following
the Seafood Watch guidelines,

1337
01:00:33,949 --> 01:00:35,006
that will put pressure.

1338
01:00:35,007 --> 01:00:37,029
We've seen it happen with other fisheries.

1339
01:00:37,030 --> 01:00:40,483
We've seen fisheries say, "We would
like to be able to still operate, and

1340
01:00:40,484 --> 01:00:44,558
that means we need to improve so that
we meet these guidelines." In terms of

1341
01:00:44,558 --> 01:00:48,314
what to expect, I think you're gonna be
surprised at how much detail you need

1342
01:00:48,314 --> 01:00:51,935
to know about a seafood item in order to
be able to assess if it's sustainable.

1343
01:00:52,363 --> 01:00:56,180
If you look at the Seafood Watch guide,
it doesn't just say, "Tuna good, snapper

1344
01:00:56,181 --> 01:00:59,955
bad." It has five kinds of tuna that
are good and five kinds of tuna that

1345
01:00:59,955 --> 01:01:03,262
are bad, from certain countries is
good, from certain countries is bad.

1346
01:01:03,263 --> 01:01:05,200
Certain gear is good, certain gear is bad.

1347
01:01:05,632 --> 01:01:09,519
And you can't always find that
information on packaging at

1348
01:01:09,519 --> 01:01:10,914
a grocery store on a label.

1349
01:01:11,122 --> 01:01:13,437
So you can always ask,
but again, ask nicely.

1350
01:01:13,732 --> 01:01:16,329
You can always visit- Yeah … the
website of the grocery store or

1351
01:01:16,329 --> 01:01:17,955
of the particular seafood company.

1352
01:01:18,304 --> 01:01:23,555
I have found with my students doing
these labs, that almost everyone is

1353
01:01:23,580 --> 01:01:28,028
able to find sustainable seafood options
at a grocery store near them, but lots

1354
01:01:28,064 --> 01:01:29,813
of the options are not sustainable.

1355
01:01:29,827 --> 01:01:33,181
So It may- Mm-hmm … require,
giving up a favorite thing.

1356
01:01:33,470 --> 01:01:36,178
If everyone did a little better
on this, it would buy us time

1357
01:01:36,178 --> 01:01:37,439
to fix the other problems.

1358
01:01:37,883 --> 01:01:38,319
Yeah.

1359
01:01:38,604 --> 01:01:39,001
True.

1360
01:01:39,379 --> 01:01:40,150
That's a good point.

1361
01:01:40,309 --> 01:01:41,739
That's a really, really good point.

1362
01:01:42,245 --> 01:01:42,853
I love that.

1363
01:01:42,959 --> 01:01:43,784
I love that idea.

1364
01:01:44,078 --> 01:01:46,843
I kinda wanna end this interview on
something that I think is really cool

1365
01:01:46,843 --> 01:01:50,056
because it, like, this is a, near the
end of the book, you kind of mention,

1366
01:01:50,386 --> 01:01:54,296
a super fan of Costco, your dad,
like, he had his proudest moment.

1367
01:01:54,354 --> 01:01:55,827
can you talk a little bit about that?

1368
01:01:55,827 --> 01:01:58,139
Because I think it's, it kind
of- Yeah … tells, like, what

1369
01:01:58,150 --> 01:02:01,128
happens when someone's successful
in being able to buy sustainable.

1370
01:02:01,618 --> 01:02:04,688
So, if you've ever been to Costco,
and if you haven't, you should

1371
01:02:04,727 --> 01:02:05,982
go right now, that it's great.

1372
01:02:06,201 --> 01:02:09,757
they have this sort of internal
trade publication called The Costco

1373
01:02:09,758 --> 01:02:13,542
Connection that you can get for
free on your way out of the store.

1374
01:02:14,013 --> 01:02:19,140
And the Marine Stewardship Council, when
I worked there, was featured in Costco

1375
01:02:19,141 --> 01:02:22,808
Connection in the context of where Costco
is improving how we buy our seafood.

1376
01:02:23,115 --> 01:02:25,742
here's an interview with the Marine
Stewardship Council leadership

1377
01:02:25,793 --> 01:02:28,437
about how they're helping us to
buy sustainably sourced things.

1378
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:31,847
I was not in this interview,
but my employer was.

1379
01:02:32,286 --> 01:02:35,583
And my dad reads The Costco
Connection because of course he does.

1380
01:02:36,537 --> 01:02:40,948
And he saw that MSC was in there, and
he told, like, everyone he knew, like,

1381
01:02:40,964 --> 01:02:46,625
"Oh, that's where my son works. Look how
cool this is." Um, so he actually, just

1382
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:51,120
got at the, Naples, Florida, where they
live, Jewish Book Festival, he got to

1383
01:02:51,137 --> 01:02:55,654
introduce someone who was giving a talk
a new book about Costco called The Joy of

1384
01:02:55,679 --> 01:02:57,698
Costco, which is also a wonderful book.

1385
01:02:58,048 --> 01:03:01,532
And my dad was wearing a shirt
under it that had the photo of

1386
01:03:01,532 --> 01:03:04,502
the $1.50 hotdog combo on it.

1387
01:03:06,278 --> 01:03:09,578
I'm telling you, those $1.50 hot dogs,
they hit right- They're great … when

1388
01:03:09,579 --> 01:03:10,473
you, when you- Yeah … when you get them.

1389
01:03:10,477 --> 01:03:10,858
Yeah.

1390
01:03:11,107 --> 01:03:12,134
this has been great, Dave.

1391
01:03:12,134 --> 01:03:15,275
I really wanna thank you for coming on the
podcast, but also for writing the book.

1392
01:03:15,290 --> 01:03:16,614
I think this is really helpful.

1393
01:03:16,814 --> 01:03:18,095
it's very informative.

1394
01:03:18,095 --> 01:03:22,656
It gives people what they need, in a
very practical way and transparent way.

1395
01:03:22,678 --> 01:03:25,767
I- Great … do have to say, like,
with all the stuff that's come out, in

1396
01:03:25,785 --> 01:03:29,488
the past, that we've talked about here
today, it makes things more confusing.

1397
01:03:29,490 --> 01:03:31,116
This kinda lays it all out for that.

1398
01:03:31,130 --> 01:03:33,388
The book is up for presale.

1399
01:03:33,431 --> 01:03:35,920
Now, I just- Yes … right
before this interview, I bought

1400
01:03:36,142 --> 01:03:38,634
a book, so I'm expecting it
to come once it's printed out.

1401
01:03:38,801 --> 01:03:40,741
It's coming out November 17th.

1402
01:03:40,741 --> 01:03:40,781
It's out in November.

1403
01:03:41,262 --> 01:03:43,180
Yeah, out November 17th.

1404
01:03:43,354 --> 01:03:45,940
We're gonna be actually in
person, hanging out in person.

1405
01:03:45,940 --> 01:03:46,246
Yeah, I'm

1406
01:03:46,246 --> 01:03:46,594
gonna see

1407
01:03:46,594 --> 01:03:46,964
you- Uh-

1408
01:03:46,981 --> 01:03:49,519
…
see you in person in
Scotland on its release date.

1409
01:03:49,519 --> 01:03:52,148
I'll come back two boxes
of books on my front step.

1410
01:03:52,498 --> 01:03:53,579
It's gonna be awesome.

1411
01:03:53,579 --> 01:03:55,356
I can't wait, for that to happen.

1412
01:03:55,357 --> 01:03:58,710
But, I'm gonna put the link,
in the show notes that people

1413
01:03:58,710 --> 01:04:00,293
can go and buy this book.

1414
01:04:00,344 --> 01:04:01,324
I think it's great.

1415
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:05,599
What I would recommend, too, is
not only buy one, buy more and give

1416
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:08,107
it to your library, so that they
can have- Yeah, that'd be great

1417
01:04:08,115 --> 01:04:10,474
a copy in their book so more
people can get access to it.

1418
01:04:10,713 --> 01:04:13,757
Dave, thank you so much for coming on
the podcast and all the work you do to

1419
01:04:13,757 --> 01:04:16,486
put it, like the effort you put into
this book, and all the effort you do

1420
01:04:16,486 --> 01:04:18,087
for all your other stuff that you do.

1421
01:04:18,177 --> 01:04:21,519
I can't wait to have you back on and
talk more about, marine conservation.

1422
01:04:22,023 --> 01:04:23,381
Thank you so much for having me.

1423
01:04:23,395 --> 01:04:26,567
Again, the book is Why Sustainable
Seafood Matters, and you can find

1424
01:04:26,567 --> 01:04:28,904
me on social media @whysharksmatter.

1425
01:04:29,282 --> 01:04:29,751
Awesome.

1426
01:04:29,891 --> 01:04:30,247
Perfect.

1427
01:04:30,272 --> 01:04:31,397
All right, thanks Dave, appreciate it.

1428
01:04:31,849 --> 01:04:35,628
There are so many things that David
talks about in his book and in this

1429
01:04:35,642 --> 01:04:40,949
interview that even I got confused
about before, and now I'm enlightened.

1430
01:04:40,992 --> 01:04:41,675
It is great.

1431
01:04:41,841 --> 01:04:42,952
Thank you, David, for coming on.

1432
01:04:42,953 --> 01:04:44,057
Thank you for writing this book.

1433
01:04:44,233 --> 01:04:48,601
As usual, the guy's always welcome to come
on here, not only just for promotion, but

1434
01:04:48,601 --> 01:04:52,671
just to talk about marine science, marine
conservation, because he's so good at it.

1435
01:04:52,694 --> 01:04:54,033
And it's fun to be able to talk to him.

1436
01:04:54,035 --> 01:04:56,449
We're good friends, and I'm
glad, to be able to have this

1437
01:04:56,456 --> 01:04:58,280
platform just to help support him.

1438
01:04:58,284 --> 01:05:01,767
So go buy the book if you wanna
learn more about sustainable seafood.

1439
01:05:02,050 --> 01:05:03,086
you can pre-order it.

1440
01:05:03,117 --> 01:05:05,031
It's just down, in the show notes.

1441
01:05:05,031 --> 01:05:05,711
There's a link.

1442
01:05:05,727 --> 01:05:07,458
You can click on that link, pre-order it.

1443
01:05:07,460 --> 01:05:09,786
It'll come to your
house, when it is ready.

1444
01:05:09,897 --> 01:05:11,443
It goes right to the publisher, too.

1445
01:05:11,464 --> 01:05:13,003
So you're supporting that, publisher.

1446
01:05:13,003 --> 01:05:16,003
You're supporting David in his work,
and I think it's really important.

1447
01:05:16,293 --> 01:05:20,561
I can't wait for, the next book when
he writes it, but this is one that I

1448
01:05:20,593 --> 01:05:22,378
look forward to hearing feedback on.

1449
01:05:22,553 --> 01:05:25,553
So if you do get the book, and you're
reading it, and you wanna let me know

1450
01:05:25,730 --> 01:05:28,305
what you think, or even David know
what you think, you can get ahold of

1451
01:05:28,305 --> 01:05:31,811
me with my social media following,
or links in the show notes as well.

1452
01:05:31,995 --> 01:05:35,307
But I wanna thank you so much for
listening to this, for supporting Dave,

1453
01:05:35,317 --> 01:05:39,337
for supporting this podcast in what we
do, because we are doing it for you to

1454
01:05:39,337 --> 01:05:42,843
help you understand the ocean a little
bit better and understand the work that

1455
01:05:42,843 --> 01:05:45,477
we do to make that information available.

1456
01:05:45,647 --> 01:05:48,314
And I think it's really great that
we get to do that, and you get to

1457
01:05:48,332 --> 01:05:51,256
kinda feel a little bit better about
the ocean, knowing a little bit more.

1458
01:05:51,258 --> 01:05:54,524
So thank you so much for the
support for Dave, for myself.

1459
01:05:54,778 --> 01:05:57,430
we really appreciate it, and thank you
so much for listening to this episode

1460
01:05:57,501 --> 01:05:59,005
of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

1461
01:05:59,022 --> 01:05:59,992
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

1462
01:06:00,161 --> 01:06:00,840
Have a great day.

1463
01:06:00,877 --> 01:06:02,828
We'll talk to you next time,
and happy conservation.