From Shoveling Coral Overboard to Negotiating at the UN

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I bet you're sitting there, you know,

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you read the title of this podcast,

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and you're probably wondering how someone
that starts off when they're younger

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or maybe they're working in a in a some
kind of industry,

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and then eventually like 20, 30,

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40 years later, they become an advocate
and and for the ocean and protect

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the ocean in some way. And and I'll be
honest,

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for me, I always think of people who want
to become who are scientists

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and they become more advocates because
they've been working in the field

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a lot of the time.

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But today we're going be following the
story of a man that

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I interviewed that's going to be Matthew
Gianni,

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who is the co-founder and political
advisor of the Deep

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Sea Conservation Coalition. I interviewed
him on Friday.

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We're going to talk about his story today,

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because I want you to get to know who he
is.

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And, you know, a lot of the times with
guests that we have,

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I don't get to talk a lot about them other
than what they talk about themselves.

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So I decide, you know what?

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Let's switch it up a little bit and let's
really focus in on the story

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of Matthew Gianni, who is a was a t a
fisherman in the United States

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for 10 years and how he ended up in
Amsterdam,

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not only having experience working for
Greenpeace for like 10,

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13 years, but also co-founding his own
deep sea conservation coalition
organization

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and is now advocating not only helping
negotiate and putting together
international

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agreements on deep sea fishing,

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but also

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Looking at mining and deep sea mining.

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We're gonna talk all about that on this
episode of the How to Protect

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the Ocean podcast. This is the podcast
where you find out everything

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you need to know on ocean news and ocean
science and conservation Monday

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to Friday every week. I can't wait for you
to s like follow,

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enjoy the journey, ~ and really dive into
a resource where you can learn about

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the ocean and what's happening in the
ocean,

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not just the education aspect.

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Of the ocean, like animals and so forth
and habitats.

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We go through that as well. But we really
talk about how things

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are progressing and how we are protecting
the ocean.

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And today we're going to be talking about
one of the people,

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one of the many, many people who has
helped protect the ocean in a

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lot of different ways. And that is Matthew
Gianni,

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who started his life as a fisher,

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or started his working life as a fisherman
for 10 years on multiple coasts

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of fisheries.

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Now, this is this is an incredible story.

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Cause and then I want you to really start
to think about what it takes

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for someone to go from fisher to advocate
in the NGO speech space from

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an internationally. So going from local,

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right? So, you know, this is ~ like a
fisherman who who's not just

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a fisherman in one fishery this entire
time.

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He spanned like genuinely a wide range of
fisheries,

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right? Not just

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On one boat or one coast. He did Florida.

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He ran around like gillnet fisheries for
Spanish and ~ king mackerel.

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He worked on the Central California,

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New England, and Florida coasts on the
bottom trawl fisheries for sole,

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redfish, hake, sable fish, shrimp,

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and other ground fish. Right? Like this is
deep-sea trawling here.

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We're looking to we're talking about like
off central California,

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down to a thousand meters, roughly 3,000
feet for my American friends.

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And in Oregon and California, he also
participated in the hook

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and line fisheries for Salmon Alba
Cortuna.

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So getting this wide variety of fish,

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and it doesn't stop there. In Northern
California and Oregon as well,

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he looked at the pot fishery. He's worked
at the pot fishery for Dugenous Crab.

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And then in Georgia's Bank, going on the
East Coast,

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Mid-Atlantic, and in New England,

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dredge fishery for deep sea scallops.

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Now, I think a lot of times when we think
about the people who are in these

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roles of like international policy roles
and political roles,

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dealing with all the nuances that have to
go into the regulations,

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whether it's national or international
bodies,

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or even even more local. It's it's not as
if like we don't know where they came

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from. Sometimes they come right out school
and they work their way

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up through the policy career space.

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And others they come from different
backgrounds like Matthew,

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right? And and you know, we're looking at
different types of fishery that

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he actually did looking at gill nets,

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trawls, hook and line, pots, dredges.

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Right, up and down the Atlantic and
Pacific coast,

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the west and east coast, the east and west
coast of the United States.

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And so it's it's not as if he had this
narrow career,

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right? he has a general working knowledge
of a ma of the American commercial fishing

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system, right? And and and he's taken a
lot from that,

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you know. And I think it it it comes down
to later.

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We'll we'll start to see this shape how he
started choosing the different paths that

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he took.

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later on in his story, and and I want you
to to really understand why

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the deep sea like what it meant to him and
and what he really understood from going

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into like the the especially the the
trawling,

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right? The central California coast,

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trawling down to a thousand meters.

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Now I want you to think about what happens
there.

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A trawl go a traw net goes down.

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I've I've described how what a traw net
looks like,

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You're looking at deep sea, so a thousand
meters,

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three thousand feet. It goes down to the
bottom.

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It's this net that has a wide opening and
then different mesh sizes

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for depending on what you're what you're
catching.

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It's got ~ sometimes it's got two doors on
the side to keep the the

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the the opening open, right, of the net.

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And then it's got a chain at the bottom.

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And when it goes down on the bottom,

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these are bottom trawls. When it goes down
at the bottom,

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the train and the the the with the doors.

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Weighing it down, as the boat goes at a
certain distance or a certain speed,

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the dredge will actually dredge everything
up on the bottom.

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In part destroying everything on the
bottom.

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So if there's habitat out there,

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coral sponges, anything like that,

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that gets destroyed. That gets brought up
into the net.

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And then, of course, the fish that are
living there get brought up,

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whether hiding or not. If as that as that
chain goes through the bottom

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or across the bottom, gets dragged across
the bottom,

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all those fish kind of.

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Put in there. Now it could be anything.

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It could be crabs, it could be fish,

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it could be any kind of vertebrate or
invertebrate that's down there,

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sometimes bigger than you expect,

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and sometimes smaller than you expect,

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right? Depending on the mesh size of the
net.

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And so as that comes up, so it gets hauled
up through that 3,000 feet,

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that 1,000 meters, it goes up into the
boat and it come and it comes over

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the deck at like through this A-frame.

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It comes over the deck and then it gets
plopped into like a sorting table.

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Now I've been a part of these things
before,

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and we've seen.

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How like it through science. And we've
seen how these fish react.

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A lot of the fish that come up,

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because they're coming up faster than
their their air bladders would allow,

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you know, the fish's eyes are like popped
out of its sockets.

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there's probably a lot of like I with the
one that I was part of,

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the trial that I the number of trials that
I was part of,

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they were like short, they were like
shallower,

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but the deep sea halls that we brought in,

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like the an the animals, like the eyes are
popped up and everything like that.

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Some are still alive, like invertebrates
are still alive and so forth.

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But like you're looking through and you're
sorting through what you want,

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what you want to keep. And a lot of them,

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what what Matthew was telling me in the
interview,

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which I'll hear on Friday, they realized
that a lot of them had no market value.

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So glass sponges, corals, starfish,

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crabs. The crew just like shoveling back,

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shoveling them back overboard and without
knowing what they were actually

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destroying. They they generally did not
understand what it looked like before

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because there's no cameras that go down
there.

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They may have thought what was there,

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but they're probably thinking this is the
deep sea.

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We're not really going over anything big.

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And maybe if it's one, it's just one
little area.

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But that's what happened, right?

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That's the image that sits with me when I
see this happen or when

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I hear this happen. Is like you have this
swath of,

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say, however big the net is, say it could
be like,

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I don't know, 20 feet wide. And and you're
just scraping the bottom.

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It could be even bigger. You're just
scraping the bottom.

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So you have these like swaths of.

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Destroyed habitat as you go through.

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And so imagine being this fisherman who's
on board trying

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to maximize their catch with as much
market value seafood that you

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can get and throwing all this other thing
on board,

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it starts to you know hit you in the back
of your head,

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like your subconscious. It starts to get
to you in that subconscious,

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right? And so over that time.

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Matthew started to to think like certain
certain things are not right,

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certain things are right, but we're gonna
continue it through this.

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And then there were two specific moments
and two specific projects that he was
like,

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you know what? I can't stand for this.

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The first, there was a hundred and ten
million dollar project to dispose

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of dredge spoils from the San Francisco
Bay directly in prime fishing grounds
along

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the southern coast of of ~ California.

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So you know, you're in this area,

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you're a fisherman, you want to maximize
the area,

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you know what's around there. And then all
of a sudden,

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this project, this major project,

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$110 million, comes through and says,

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hey, you know what, we're actually gonna
take the dredge,

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like the San Francisco Bay needs to be
dredged out,

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and we're just gonna dump them in this one
area.

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And the fisherman, like, well,

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hold on a second, you can't do that.

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So, working together with some of his
colleagues in the fishing industry,

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he helped halt that project for several
years until the US Army Corps

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of Engineers and the EPA agreed.

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To move the disposal site off the
continental shelf.

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Now, is that great? No, still not great,

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but not in his area. He won the fight with
his colleagues together as

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a community of fishermen, they won that
fight.

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And that takes a lot, like you're going up
against the Army Army Corps of Engineers.

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It's a federal and EPA. Those are two
federal bodies that were a

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lot stronger than they were today.

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Now, the second event that really kind of
put him more towards.

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Advocacy are really learning toward what
you can accomplish with the advocate,

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is he served as a fishing industry ~
representative in efforts to oppose

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to oppose offshore oil and gas leases
along the central coast of California.

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Right? So oil and gas had like in
California have a very interesting
history.

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And so, as again, as part of the fishing
industry and as a representative,

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he participated in efforts to ensure that
there was no offshore oil

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and gas leases that were going to be.

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sold off of the central California coast.

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So, you know, two projects that were are
worth being like,

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wow, like this is a fisherman who's who's
standing up for his right and

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his like his people's rights, like his
other fishermen's rights to fish

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in nice areas where they can get maximum
fisheries,

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right? And but he's and and and he's still
fighting these these things like

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you know looking at oil and gas

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Oil and gas leases, that how that can
affect fishing,

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looking at dredging, being dumped in a
prime fishing spot.

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So he's starting to think that,

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hey, I can get a lot done with this,

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right? And I think having the,

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and I can't say this for sure,

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but having the the the in the back of your
mind,

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your subconscious, the knowing that the
effects of what you're doing

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in this deep-sea trawling game,

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I think it started to really change the
way he thought.

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And having these, this, these two
experiences with advocacy.

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Could really help think that, hey,

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I maybe I can do a a lot more for the
environment within fisheries.

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Still get, you know, I'm still standing up
for fishers,

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but like we can actually do a little bit
more,

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right? He went up against the Army Corps
of Engineers and the EPA and they won,

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right? At least for a few years.

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That's like a that's pretty meaningful in
that way,

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right? You know, it's it's it's the fact
that the he didn't come from outside

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the industry to fight like, you know,

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00:11:26,540 --> 00:11:28,699
for or against fisheries. He came in.

228
00:11:29,489 --> 00:11:31,450
From the inside the industry, inside the
fishing industry,

229
00:11:31,450 --> 00:11:33,201
say, hey, we need to stand up for our
fishers.

230
00:11:33,201 --> 00:11:34,742
Oil and gas could be really bad for us.

231
00:11:34,742 --> 00:11:36,263
We saw that with the BP oil spill.

232
00:11:36,263 --> 00:11:39,254
Also, you're looking at you know,

233
00:11:39,254 --> 00:11:43,337
the EPA and the Army Corps of Engineers
that put out dredge in the middle

234
00:11:43,337 --> 00:11:45,568
of a prime fishing spot. No, we're not
gonna do that.

235
00:11:45,568 --> 00:11:48,510
So all that thinking allowed him to be
like,

236
00:11:48,510 --> 00:11:51,151
Hey, you know what? I think I can do more.

237
00:11:51,151 --> 00:11:54,593
I think I can benefit more. And I wanna
stay on the environmental side

238
00:11:54,773 --> 00:11:56,554
and really look at what we can do.

239
00:11:56,554 --> 00:11:58,065
So he went to work.

240
00:11:58,300 --> 00:12:00,581
For Greenpeace International, right?

241
00:12:00,581 --> 00:12:03,041
He helped start up their international
fisheries campaign.

242
00:12:03,041 --> 00:12:05,742
That's pretty good. You know, he's working
with NGOs

243
00:12:05,742 --> 00:12:08,663
and community-based organizations across
Latin America,

244
00:12:08,663 --> 00:12:11,393
Southeast Asia, India, Europe,

245
00:12:11,393 --> 00:12:16,825
and the US on unsustainable aquaculture
campaigns and other and other campaigns
like

246
00:12:16,825 --> 00:12:20,796
that. That's pretty cool. Then he also led
like Greenpeace's participation

247
00:12:20,796 --> 00:12:25,817
in the UN conference of straddling fish
stocks and highly migratory fish stocks.

248
00:12:26,105 --> 00:12:29,827
And in the negoti and and in the
negotiation of the UN FAO Code

249
00:12:29,827 --> 00:12:31,458
of Conduct for Responsible Fisheries.

250
00:12:31,458 --> 00:12:34,760
So now you're looking at international
campaigns here.

251
00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,702
And he worked on and toward the end of his
the campaign led,

252
00:12:38,702 --> 00:12:41,506
and the end of the campaign led the
international effort to secure

253
00:12:41,506 --> 00:12:44,959
UN General Assembly moratorium on
high-seas drift net fishing.

254
00:12:44,959 --> 00:12:50,442
And that was adopted in 1991 and 1992 at
the UNS UN General Assembly

255
00:12:50,842 --> 00:12:52,323
and entered effect in 1992.

256
00:12:52,583 --> 00:12:55,624
That's pretty cool. Like that now you
start like you're working with Greenpeace

257
00:12:55,624 --> 00:13:00,005
International, having this this advocacy
experience from fisheries,

258
00:13:00,005 --> 00:13:03,506
now coming into the NGO game with a
pretty,

259
00:13:03,506 --> 00:13:08,346
I would say, known and getting more and
more reputable organization,

260
00:13:08,346 --> 00:13:11,468
like in the nineties and in in the ~ in
the two thousands,

261
00:13:11,468 --> 00:13:16,159
right? And and cause they were a real like
activist organization when

262
00:13:16,159 --> 00:13:20,030
it first started, right? One of the
co-founders was Paul Watson.

263
00:13:20,426 --> 00:13:23,228
And so they were really into the ad
activism part and they started to

264
00:13:23,228 --> 00:13:27,071
get into the advocacy part and you know
looking at policy and so forth,

265
00:13:27,071 --> 00:13:28,172
right? They still do activism,

266
00:13:28,172 --> 00:13:30,033
but a lot of times looking at this,

267
00:13:30,033 --> 00:13:33,005
and so the reputation started to get
bigger and better within

268
00:13:33,005 --> 00:13:34,806
the conservation ~ regime, right?

269
00:13:34,806 --> 00:13:36,458
They were within the conservation field.

270
00:13:36,458 --> 00:13:39,700
and then so any regularly represented
Greenpeace at fisheries

271
00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:42,772
and ocean-related internet
intergovernmental forums,

272
00:13:42,772 --> 00:13:45,784
including the UN FAO Committee on
Fisheries meetings,

273
00:13:45,784 --> 00:13:47,786
technical and expert consultations.

274
00:13:47,959 --> 00:13:50,340
And the UN Commission on Sustainable
Development,

275
00:13:50,340 --> 00:13:54,224
ICAT, and the 1992 UN Earth Summit.

276
00:13:54,224 --> 00:13:57,865
So I guess, you know, looking at from a
policy perspective

277
00:13:58,025 --> 00:14:01,367
and looking at negotiations and look and
his participation in that,

278
00:14:01,367 --> 00:14:03,858
Matthew's like getting in there.

279
00:14:03,858 --> 00:14:05,849
He's getting his feet wet, so to speak.

280
00:14:05,849 --> 00:14:09,221
Right. And then not only is he doing it in
the back rooms,

281
00:14:09,221 --> 00:14:11,196
like in the meeting rooms, he's also
organizing,

282
00:14:11,196 --> 00:14:14,773
you know, at this time, organized
Greenpeace ships ~ expeditions.

283
00:14:15,083 --> 00:14:17,844
To document overfishing and unsustainable
fishing practices,

284
00:14:17,844 --> 00:14:19,924
more on their activism side, on the Grand
Banks,

285
00:14:19,924 --> 00:14:21,855
the Georgia's Bank, and the Barents Sea.

286
00:14:21,855 --> 00:14:25,777
And then he worked through a number of
different campaigns where

287
00:14:25,777 --> 00:14:29,109
he became involved in international policy
and treaty negotiations.

288
00:14:29,109 --> 00:14:34,541
And eventually he ran the entire ocean
program for for ~ Greenpeace
International.

289
00:14:34,541 --> 00:14:37,802
This is how he ended up ended up in
Amsterdam,

290
00:14:37,802 --> 00:14:39,983
where he still lives today. Now,

291
00:14:39,983 --> 00:14:43,624
I I want to just go back into his fishing
days.

292
00:14:44,410 --> 00:14:47,943
Fishing in a plethora of different
industries.

293
00:14:47,943 --> 00:14:53,416
And then moving into like after two you
know successful campaigns

294
00:14:53,416 --> 00:14:59,081
for fisheries industries moves into a
larger platform

295
00:14:59,081 --> 00:15:04,434
and a larger scale of effect on these
policies that he's putting into place

296
00:15:04,434 --> 00:15:07,777
or helping, you know, negotiate and form
and shape and form.

297
00:15:07,777 --> 00:15:09,078
And now

298
00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:13,252
He's in charge of the entire Greenpeace
International Ocean Program.

299
00:15:13,252 --> 00:15:16,974
From fisheries to ocean program.

300
00:15:16,974 --> 00:15:20,576
That's incredible. That's like that's
pretty incredible.

301
00:15:20,576 --> 00:15:24,778
Right? I think, I think it's it's
something where you you know

302
00:15:24,778 --> 00:15:26,739
you look you're talking about the UN
General Assembly.

303
00:15:26,739 --> 00:15:30,932
You're talking about ship like planning
ship expeditions into some of

304
00:15:30,932 --> 00:15:34,023
the most like contested fishing grounds on
earth.

305
00:15:34,023 --> 00:15:39,026
Right? And he's got a seat in every major
international fisheries.

306
00:15:39,756 --> 00:15:41,607
form that that it that pretty much
existed.

307
00:15:41,607 --> 00:15:46,172
So that's like from an in for an
individual to do that as part

308
00:15:46,172 --> 00:15:48,379
of an organization like this, that's
pretty good.

309
00:15:48,379 --> 00:15:52,567
And a fisher no less, right? Like I think
this is why we need

310
00:15:52,567 --> 00:15:58,030
to really understand that advocates and
and and people like yourselves

311
00:15:58,030 --> 00:16:00,211
who are listening to this who really care
about the ocean,

312
00:16:00,211 --> 00:16:05,756
you can you can get to a point wherever
you want to by hard work

313
00:16:05,919 --> 00:16:10,993
And participating in things while doing
like your job or anything to really build

314
00:16:10,993 --> 00:16:14,715
up your reputation, to really get to where
you want to go and be able

315
00:16:14,715 --> 00:16:16,877
to ask the question: can I go bigger?

316
00:16:16,877 --> 00:16:19,028
Or maybe you want to stay at the same age,

317
00:16:19,028 --> 00:16:20,879
or can I do more for the ocean?

318
00:16:20,879 --> 00:16:25,483
This story is really starting to ask that
question,

319
00:16:25,483 --> 00:16:29,826
right? For me, as I look towards a future
in ocean conservation.

320
00:16:29,826 --> 00:16:31,847
I'm 47 years old. I still got a future,

321
00:16:31,847 --> 00:16:32,847
folks. I'm not that old.

322
00:16:33,256 --> 00:16:38,300
Right. And and I I think this story is
inspiring in in looking at that.

323
00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:43,453
Right. And I think think about like this
is a fisherman who once shoveled coral

324
00:16:43,453 --> 00:16:49,368
overboard and f and fought a like a dredge
spoil project from the deck of a boat.

325
00:16:49,368 --> 00:16:54,791
Is is now negotiating global moratoriums
at at the UN.

326
00:16:54,791 --> 00:16:57,193
Like I think that's pretty cool.

327
00:16:57,193 --> 00:16:58,524
Right.

328
00:16:59,464 --> 00:17:00,795
And then he said, you know what,

329
00:17:00,795 --> 00:17:03,826
in early 2000s, he said, I'm gonna I want
to do more.

330
00:17:03,826 --> 00:17:05,877
Like I the Greenpeace has been great,

331
00:17:05,877 --> 00:17:08,318
but I want to really focus on the deep
sea.

332
00:17:08,318 --> 00:17:12,659
And he co-founded the Deep Sea
Conservation Coalition,

333
00:17:12,659 --> 00:17:18,252
which is an international coalition of
over 80 organizations worldwide promoting

334
00:17:18,252 --> 00:17:22,303
protection of the deep sea's biodiversity
from harmful activities.

335
00:17:22,303 --> 00:17:28,656
And he so he serves right now as the
DSCC's political and policy advisor.

336
00:17:29,948 --> 00:17:35,353
And he it's aimed at ending deep water
trawling primarily on seamount ecosystems

337
00:17:35,353 --> 00:17:39,126
on this high seas and is pursued through
the UN General Assembly process.

338
00:17:39,126 --> 00:17:42,670
So he's again working on this
international level,

339
00:17:42,670 --> 00:17:47,694
right? Now the organization has
successfully advocated through the
coalition,

340
00:17:47,694 --> 00:17:51,768
has successfully advocated for major
changes to international law,

341
00:17:51,768 --> 00:17:55,922
policy, and regulations at the UN General
Assembly and the UN FAO.

342
00:17:56,347 --> 00:18:00,049
And regional fisheries management
organizations and other international
forums,

343
00:18:00,049 --> 00:18:03,872
all focused on protecting deep sea
ecosystems on the high seas.

344
00:18:03,872 --> 00:18:05,873
Now, I haven't mentioned deep sea mining
yet,

345
00:18:05,873 --> 00:18:09,876
because this is before 2014. And they
continue to do this for the deep sea.

346
00:18:09,876 --> 00:18:14,539
Because it's not just deep sea mining that
is putting pressure on the deep sea.

347
00:18:14,539 --> 00:18:16,760
I want to get that clear. It is there,

348
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:18,902
I mean, it's it's starting to put pressure
on it,

349
00:18:18,902 --> 00:18:21,483
but that's not what we were worried about
at this time.

350
00:18:21,483 --> 00:18:25,026
And for the deep sea conservation
coalition,

351
00:18:25,026 --> 00:18:26,026
that

352
00:18:25,426 --> 00:18:27,287
was what they were worried about was deep
sea trawling.

353
00:18:27,287 --> 00:18:32,266
That's where this is this is where this is
where Matthew's experience really comes

354
00:18:32,266 --> 00:18:35,066
in. This is where his first concern of
putting,

355
00:18:35,066 --> 00:18:38,981
you know, glass sponges, corals all over
the over the overboard after

356
00:18:38,981 --> 00:18:41,202
a trawl started to come into play and
started to say,

357
00:18:41,202 --> 00:18:43,173
hey, ~ we need to put this into effect.

358
00:18:43,173 --> 00:18:47,556
We need to protect the ocean. Now since
2014,

359
00:18:47,556 --> 00:18:50,737
the coalition started to take on the deep
sea mining issue.

360
00:18:50,737 --> 00:18:53,589
Right. But I like

361
00:18:53,955 --> 00:18:56,957
I want I want you to think about this.

362
00:18:56,957 --> 00:19:02,571
He went from Fisher all over the place to
international program

363
00:19:02,571 --> 00:19:06,625
or program internet like Greenpeace
International program director for the
oceans.

364
00:19:06,625 --> 00:19:09,407
Like the director of all of it.

365
00:19:09,407 --> 00:19:13,410
He left like a stable, high-level role in
Greenpeace International,

366
00:19:13,410 --> 00:19:15,692
one of the biggest environmental
organizations in the world,

367
00:19:15,692 --> 00:19:20,186
to go build something new. Aimed squarely
at the exact kind of destruction

368
00:19:20,186 --> 00:19:21,437
he used to cause.

369
00:19:21,725 --> 00:19:23,626
With his own hands, like him and his crew.

370
00:19:23,626 --> 00:19:26,726
Like that's a pretty full circle moment
right now.

371
00:19:26,726 --> 00:19:29,937
Right? So think about like how many years?

372
00:19:29,937 --> 00:19:32,748
This is over like like a couple of decades
that he's like,

373
00:19:32,748 --> 00:19:37,749
We did so much wrong in the deep sea at
the time when I started for where when

374
00:19:37,749 --> 00:19:41,301
I was fishing. Now I have the chance to
really bring it into moment.

375
00:19:41,301 --> 00:19:45,512
I've I've put myself in a position where I
can really make a difference.

376
00:19:45,512 --> 00:19:49,273
And now he's they're taking on the
coalition's taking on deep sea mining.

377
00:19:50,088 --> 00:19:53,381
Right, started like the they that work
started in 2014 for them.

378
00:19:53,381 --> 00:19:56,923
And in his own like it in in in Matthew's
own words,

379
00:19:56,923 --> 00:20:00,496
he's he said he started on the basis of
that work,

380
00:20:00,496 --> 00:20:02,668
the seamount trawling ~ campaign,

381
00:20:02,668 --> 00:20:08,212
that that he eventually got into the issue
of deep sea like deep sea bed mining,

382
00:20:08,212 --> 00:20:10,474
like himself. Right. That's what he's
looking at,

383
00:20:10,474 --> 00:20:12,415
right? He's looking at, you know,

384
00:20:12,415 --> 00:20:13,716
going through deep sea trawling.

385
00:20:13,716 --> 00:20:16,088
Now you got deep sea mining, you know,

386
00:20:16,088 --> 00:20:17,940
you're looking on the seabed, you need to

387
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,202
clean that up. You make you gotta make
sure that's not gonna cause a problem.

388
00:20:21,202 --> 00:20:26,676
So he saw like the core of the problem was
the same that drove him to find like

389
00:20:26,676 --> 00:20:30,649
to to start the like the deep sea
conservation coalition in the first place.

390
00:20:30,649 --> 00:20:34,231
Like there's almost no baseline data that
exists for either seamounts

391
00:20:34,351 --> 00:20:39,395
or deep sea beds. Right. So there's no way
to know what has been lost until after

392
00:20:39,395 --> 00:20:42,918
it's already gone. This is what scientists
have been proposing for a long,

393
00:20:42,918 --> 00:20:44,579
long time, over a decade.

394
00:20:45,607 --> 00:20:47,318
Right. also points like specific gaps.

395
00:20:47,318 --> 00:20:49,570
So like looking at connectivity between
species.

396
00:20:49,570 --> 00:20:53,413
So looking at how these species go from
one place to another.

397
00:20:53,413 --> 00:20:58,196
So a lot of times I mentioned in past
episodes that a lot of the species will,

398
00:20:58,196 --> 00:21:02,710
you know, be born or hatch as larvae in
one area and the currents will bring

399
00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:06,835
it to another area. And that distance can
can vary depending on the species from

400
00:21:06,835 --> 00:21:11,186
a couple of kilometers or even like a
couple of feet all the way to 10,

401
00:21:11,186 --> 00:21:12,387
20 kilometers, maybe even more.

402
00:21:13,521 --> 00:21:16,114
Right. And looking at how deep sea
ecosystems are structured,

403
00:21:16,114 --> 00:21:18,937
looking at how long species will live down
there,

404
00:21:18,937 --> 00:21:23,391
how they reproduce, you know, what they
even like what can they even look like

405
00:21:23,391 --> 00:21:27,986
as larvae. And and none of that is really
well understood in the deep sea.

406
00:21:28,543 --> 00:21:30,894
So it's not as if like he just did this,

407
00:21:30,894 --> 00:21:34,836
like started the deep sea coalition
conservation conservation or coalition

408
00:21:35,466 --> 00:21:38,568
on the on like as a way of just like let's
just do this for the sake of it,

409
00:21:38,568 --> 00:21:41,949
right? He did it because it's the same
fight that's followed him since

410
00:21:42,049 --> 00:21:44,336
his his trawling days. You know,

411
00:21:44,336 --> 00:21:48,052
he spent years proving that trawling was
destroying seamount species.

412
00:21:48,052 --> 00:21:49,253
we haven't even discovered yet.

413
00:21:49,253 --> 00:21:53,074
Deep sea mining raised like the exact same
fear.

414
00:21:53,074 --> 00:21:54,935
An industry like about to.

415
00:21:55,426 --> 00:22:00,080
tear into the seabed or suck up stuff on
top of the seabed before scientists

416
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:01,905
can even be like map what lives there.

417
00:22:03,397 --> 00:22:05,438
Right. And and we're going to be talking
tomorrow.

418
00:22:05,438 --> 00:22:10,151
We're going to be talking about what the
what what the effect of like trawling

419
00:22:10,151 --> 00:22:12,402
on seamounts can do in deep sea and why
that's important.

420
00:22:12,402 --> 00:22:16,384
And something that really took Matthew to
the next level after seeing this study.

421
00:22:16,384 --> 00:22:17,785
We're going to focus on that study.

422
00:22:17,785 --> 00:22:21,007
And then on Thursday and Friday's
episodes,

423
00:22:21,007 --> 00:22:22,988
we're really going to dive into deep sea
mining.

424
00:22:22,988 --> 00:22:25,270
And then the the Thursday one is going to
be interesting,

425
00:22:25,270 --> 00:22:27,081
or the fr Wednesday one's going to be
interesting because I'm really going

426
00:22:27,081 --> 00:22:28,852
to dive into what makes

427
00:22:29,574 --> 00:22:33,085
A CEO from one of these mining companies
look at deep sea mining and say,

428
00:22:33,085 --> 00:22:34,626
Hey, you know what? This is a good idea.

429
00:22:34,626 --> 00:22:38,737
And then we're gonna go into like what
some of the claims are

430
00:22:38,737 --> 00:22:42,438
on Thursday's episode and say of deep sea
mining and why they're

431
00:22:42,438 --> 00:22:46,249
not really bothering anybody, because
apparently the deep sea is just

432
00:22:46,249 --> 00:22:48,630
a desert and there's really not that much
going on there,

433
00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:50,821
which we know is not true. So we're gonna
go through all that.

434
00:22:50,821 --> 00:22:54,292
And of course, we're gonna end the week
with an interview with Matthew Gianni.

435
00:22:54,596 --> 00:22:56,596
talking about a lot of the stuff that we
talked about today,

436
00:22:56,596 --> 00:22:58,437
but you're going to hear it straight from
his mouth.

437
00:22:58,437 --> 00:23:00,018
And it's going to be an incredible,

438
00:23:00,018 --> 00:23:02,298
incredible week of looking at the deep
sea.

439
00:23:02,298 --> 00:23:06,059
So I want you to follow this podcast if
you haven't followed before

440
00:23:06,220 --> 00:23:08,800
on your favorite podcast app. And of
course you can also check

441
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,781
out Ocean Decoded Live on YouTube.

442
00:23:10,781 --> 00:23:14,302
I've started Monday to Thursday doing a
live show talking about

443
00:23:14,402 --> 00:23:16,843
all these different things that are
happening around the ocean because

444
00:23:16,903 --> 00:23:20,444
I can't keep it all and do it all on here
on this podcast,

445
00:23:20,444 --> 00:23:21,444
but I can do it.

446
00:23:21,518 --> 00:23:23,870
as well. I can do it on on YouTube as
well.

447
00:23:23,870 --> 00:23:26,292
So ~ be sure to check that out.

448
00:23:26,292 --> 00:23:29,865
~ I wanna thank you for joining me on
today's episode of the How

449
00:23:29,865 --> 00:23:31,467
to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your
host,

450
00:23:31,467 --> 00:23:32,888
Andrew Lewin. Have a great day.

451
00:23:32,888 --> 00:23:35,030
We'll talk to you next time and happy
conservation.