All The Sharks Netflix: Aliah Banchik Shares Behind-the-Scenes Stories from the Shark Game Show

1:00:00 We have a bit of a celebrity on the podcast today on the Beyond Jaws podcast. We have Aliyah Bancik, who is one of the stars and contestants of the new Netflix show. I guess it's a competition show. I always saw the game show, but it's competition show called All the Sharks. So if you want to see one of the sharks, you're not just going to see one of the sharks, you're not going to see the main sharks that you normally see, tiger sharks, great white sharks, and so forth. You are going to see all the sharks. And I want to give it away where we're going to hear a bit of the behind the scenes from Aliyah. And we're also going to hear about all her other projects because she is a busy woman and you have to hear this on this episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. Let's start the show. Hey everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. I am your co-host, Andrew Lewin here with my co-host, Dr. David Ebert. Dave, this is a show that it's been a, we haven't done one in a while about someone's been on a show.

1:00:53 It's quite exciting. What are you looking forward to this interview? Well, I don't, Alia is one of the few people I don't really know much about. She actually recommended her for the show. I've seen her on social media, but I don't really know her at all. So I'm really looking forward to this. It's going to be an exciting exploration for me. But I guess I don't really know more about. And so, yeah, I know going through her her materials, I didn't even know where to start. So, so I guess once we start the show, we have nothing, we won't have any shortage of things to talk about with her. And yeah, I certainly want to hear about her new Netflix show, though I don't want spoiler alert. I haven't seen it yet. So I don't want to get, don't give it away while we're on the show. No, exactly. But I'm looking forward to it. And I've all heard good things about her. So I'm really looking forward to having her talking to her here. Yeah, for sure. I had her on the show, her and her co-founder of the Finstitute, Luca on the show about a year ago on how to protect the ocean just over a year ago. And we've been waiting to have her on this podcast. So, you know, obviously we have a lot of, we had a lineup of amazing guests that we've had on the past year.

1:01:57 And then it just so happened that she was coming out with this show, which I didn't know about until about a week before. And I was like, and I told Dave, I'm like, Dave, we got to get this person on normally, like just to be on the full, full disclosures. Dave has so many connections within the shark world that usually he gets the guests. And I'm just like all along for the ride as a co-host. I'm like, okay, like I'll do a lot of the technical stuff, ask some questions here and there. But Dave has the history. He's got the experience and the relationship with that person. But this time I was able to get it. So I kind of feel a little good. Like this is our guest, but I was like, I'm the one to you. And so it's fun to be able to switch that a little bit. And you know, hear Dave like kind of discover through the, through the questions. And it's kind of a fun thing to do to switch it up every once in a while. But she is great.

1:02:41 Like she, you'll see, she has a lot of energy. She's done a lot of stuff. She's got a lot of skills. You know, we're looking at her CV and we're just like, holy cow. Like how do you get all this done in such a short amount of time? And so definitely an up and coming star. So let's get started with the interview. Here's the interview with Leah Benchik talking about a number of different things within the shark world, fit the finstitute naked for nature. She's also talking about her show, all the sharks on Netflix. You can watch it now in Canada is number seven out of the top 10. That's huge. And it took over another shark film that we're not really going to talk about. And I can't wait to talk about. So here's the episode. Here's the interview. Enjoy. And I'll talk to you after. I am so excited for this. Aaliyah, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast.

1:03:27 Are you ready to talk about everything about sharks, but including flat sharks? Yes, yes, I am. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Right on. You bet. Well, welcome everyone to another episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast, where we have another rising star in the shark world with an awesome guest, Aaliyah Benchik, who recently just finished her MSC at James Cook University in Townsville, Australia. And just to preface this, Aaliyah has such a prolific portfolio that probably take me 20 minutes or at least a third of the episode to just cover everything. So I'm just going to give you a few bullet points and we'll kind of go from there and bring Aaliyah in here. Amongst some of her highlights. So she's the co-founder president of the Fin Institute.

1:04:09 Finstitute. Sorry about that. A student led conservation consortium with over 200 members. And she's also founder of the Naked for Nature, which I want to find out more about that. An ocean conservation, digital media and underwater photography group. She's a dive master, PADI assistant instructor, drone pilot, flat shark enthusiast. I don't know about go sharks, Jeff. Well, I'm sure we'll find out during the interview. And so she currently in her current position, she's a projects and communications coordinator for the Sydney Institute of Marine Science in Sydney, Australia. Her schooling background is she did a BSC in marine biology, Spanish and psychology at Tulane University. Wow, that's a lot of work.

1:04:52 And then she just finished her MSC at James Cook University. And with that, Aaliyah, welcome to the show. Oh my gosh, thank you so much. Thank you so much for the run through of my, my whole history. That's wild to hear. Let's be honest, this history, you are fairly young. We're not going to ask your age, of course, but you're fairly young in this business. And you've already done so, so much. So it's kind of, it's kind of interesting to be able to have you on the podcast. It is interesting to have you on the podcast because, you know, this is somebody I, you're somebody I wanted to have on the podcast for a long time. And then all of a sudden, you know, two weeks ago, you start posting about this show that's coming out on Netflix called All the Sharks. And I'm like, okay, we have to arrange something. I watched it all on Friday when it came out July 4th. And I was like, I finished it six hours straight. I may have gotten up once. I told you before I didn't get, I probably got up once ago, grab somebody to eat. But I was like standing up. I was very much into this and I was texting Dave. I'm like, Dave, they have hound sharks on this. They have all these different sharks on this.

1:05:54 And he's like, I got to, I got to see this. But anyway, it's awesome. I love the show. And, and like people will probably hear my review before this episode is posted on how to protect the ocean. But it was, it was great. But what's also great is all the stuff that you've done before. So today, we're going to get into all of that. But we, we always start off the show of just sort of like, how did you get interested in, in the ocean and, and sharks? Cause I know you grew up in New York city. You know, you had an ocean beside you, but probably when you grew up, it may not have, it was on the rise to come back, but it was still pretty nasty water in there in that harbor. It's better now, but it was pretty nasty. So how did you get involved in the ocean? How did you get interested in the ocean? You know, I was actually, I was trying to reflect on this because I realized I didn't really have the answer to that question, like truly thought through. But now that I have, I realized that I've traced it all the way back to an incredible TV show called River Monsters with Jeremy Wade. Does anybody know River Monsters? Yes. Yes. I was obsessed with him and I was obsessed with the show. And it wasn't because I was like, wow, fish are so cool. It was because I was like, that is the most terrifying thing I could ever imagine doing. And I think the whole love for the ocean and love for sharks all came back to like initial feelings of fear because I was that person that was just absolutely petrified of the ocean, like would not go in past my

1:07:25 knees, like literally wouldn't open my eyes at a swimming pool. I mean, like I wouldn't go underwater in a swimming pool because I thought that that would be a great white shark in front of me if I opened my eyes, which is like, what? Yeah. Yeah. I was like, genuinely, like unrealistically scared of any open body of water. But it clearly had that fascination still all the way at the very beginning when I was watching River Monsters and, you know, just scaring the crap out of myself every day. So then in high school, I had the opportunity to take either an elective, but that was either a strong astronomy. I always get their astronomy and or marine biology.

1:08:06 Right. And astronomy was full. So I ended up in marine biology and I remember learning about great white sharks and like counter shading on them as an example. And I just was like fascinated by the fact that they have like a natural like cloak of invisibility pretty much. And I remember just that specific thing just like really, really interested me and that they had been around like since before dinosaurs, like all these facts. I was like, holy cow, it's actually kind of cool. And then I just realized like the more and more that we had that that shark unit in that class, I learned about their behavior and learn about like, you know, very basic level, of course, but like, you know, why they do the things that they do that they're not actually after humans everywhere they go. I really thought they were.

1:08:52 And so that just made me kind of inch closer and closer and closer into the water every time I would go to like, we had like a family house in in Florida. Every time I would go, I would just get a little bit deeper into the water until it all clicked and I no longer feared them. And in fact, I was fascinated by them as they say. From fear to fascination. And yeah, it's kind of it's my parents worst nightmare, but that's now my career. Well, what really gone to fascination? I mean, underwater photos diving with sharks in this in this show, you're diving with sharks, like all types of sharks, you know, tiger sharks, like, and like just everything from like hound sharks and tiger sharks to skates and rays. And it's amazing how you're able to how you're able to do that going from such a fear.

1:09:46 Do you ever look back and just be like, man, I've I've like, this has really changed. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Especially like my parents, like, I remember my dad, he's like, he's been a diver forever. And he actually is the one who forced me against my will to get certified at 11. Right. Scuba certified. I was like, still in the height of my fear at the ocean at that point. So like every time we were doing the dives, I was like glued onto his arm, like no separation between us. But like, I do remember going on a snorkel with him in the Bahamas once upon a time. And, you know, just sand. There's literally nothing. It's crystal clear water. It's just sand. And I saw a one of the big starfish is. Yeah. And ran on water. Like, I was petrified. I was like, get me out. Get me out.

1:10:33 Get me out. Get me out. Get me out. Yeah. I was like, what is wrong with you? So, yeah, we've definitely come a long way from from that, from running from starfish. What are your parents? I mean, at what point when you're growing up, did you just did you decide? Did you make the switch? Like, okay, dad, I'm going to actually go be a marine biologist. You know, I think it was actually like that. I was never one of those kids that was like, oh, I want to be a marine biologist when I'm older. And like, I had no idea what I was what I really wanted to be until I'm like in it. I still don't know what I want to be. I know who I want to be. I want to be a good and natured, genuine, curious person. And I don't know what necessarily career that's going to land me in. But yeah, I never knew that I wanted to do marine biology. But to answer your question a little bit more directly.

1:11:22 I start so my bachelor's, my undergrad degree is psychology. And then the minor was marine biology and Spanish. And I didn't I didn't go into school thinking, okay, yes, I'm gonna go get a bachelor's of science so that I can set myself up to do marine biology later if I wanted to do a master's. That was never in the cards for me. Right. It's just I had done a semester abroad in Australia during my undergrad. And I was like, wow, I want to get back there somehow some way. What better way than to study further and do an education degree because you know, or a marine biology degree because you know, you can get a student visa. Yeah, relatively easily than other visas. And yeah, maybe I can get a scholarship and all that stuff. So I just kind of looked into like you said and James Cook University as to the options that I really wanted to go to and found out that I actually didn't need to do another degree. Like I already had the prerequisite, which was a Bachelor of Science, which I got blindly lucky doing because in a lot of schools, yeah, psychology and art, right? Exactly.

1:12:28 Psychology is usually like a Bachelor of Arts. So I got just, again, this is what I was saying, like so lucky in my career, where I was like, oh, my gosh, I could actually apply and get into a master's degree in marine biology with my psychology degree. Yeah, you just say yourself like 80 grand. I know. Oh, my God. And like so much mental stress. Holy cow. Yeah, for sure. Now, when you when you did it, you did a semester abroad at James Cook, and then is already a semester abroad at UCID, actually. So I've never been to town before. Oh, okay. Okay. So how did you hook up with a professor there at James Cook? So I ended up like, when I when I did get to James Cook University, that's when I just kind of started talking to a bunch of people. But like, I didn't know anybody beforehand.

1:13:14 Oh, because the degree is not like a it's not a research thesis, right? It's more of a class base. Is that what it is? Exactly. So it's a master's degree by coursework. And so the first year, so it's an interesting and ever evolving, like structure at JSU. But the, the one that I did, which was a master's of marine biology, you have one year of coursework. And then you either can do a placement like an internship of some sort, or you can do one year of research. So I did the one year of research. And that's, yeah, I so I got to like mingle and meet people, and then figure out who I wanted as my advisors. And yeah, so it was it was nice. I didn't have to like have an idea and jump into it.

1:13:55 So, okay, so for your master's, you did you did your you did the research thing, and but you didn't have to have a, you didn't have to have an advisor when you started out or? Not not when we started out, which is actually one of the things that I like, I didn't know anything about this. And I didn't I never even considered doing research to be completely honest. We can probably get into this in a little bit. But like, with ADHD and dyslexia, like I just was like, I'm better at doing things like physically doing things, hands on things, like not behind the scenes and not reading papers and like crunching numbers, like I want to be hands on. But yeah, having that first year of coursework, I was like, I want to be hands on. But yeah, having that first year of coursework, which was also great because again, I studied psychology, mainly, I got to get like some very awesome entry level classes that just kind of like level the playing field in marine biology subjects.

1:14:45 And then during that time, I got to figure out what I wanted to do. I didn't just have to like, you know, be like, Okay, I'm gonna go for sharks. Because if I did, I probably would have ended up in the coral department. Because I had some experience doing like core restoration work with the Core Restoration Foundation. And I was like, this is great. So if I had just had to like blindly choose a subject, that was the only thing that I really had experience, and I probably would have ended up there. But I like to explore. It's such a great opportunity for you. Because one, you're going to a different country. And like to go and just be able to find someone like to just, you know, cold call or cold email, like a professor, like you would traditionally do here in the US. And then, you know, get to know them, they don't know you this, so they may not accept you as a student, or they may accept someone closer to home. But then going to there taking a year of courses getting used to the program, getting used to living in Townsville, like that's, so we can get into because that's, that's what I wanted to do.

1:15:41 Because that's, that's, I heard that. And then you get to, so then you get to know some of the professors just through, through coursework, and you get to understand the lay of the land. And then you really get to do research, you are, that starts to come into your focus and be like, Oh, maybe I can do this. So as someone who I don't have ADHD, I don't have dyslexia. So, but I know a lot of people who struggle with that in their coursework, even like elementary school, high school, you know, university. What is it about research for you, like you kind of mentioned a little bit just doing the reviews and the readings and stuff like that. What made you decide I can actually do this and I can probably succeed in this rather than doing something more, more hands on?

1:16:25 Yeah, you know, I think this is like, this is a pretty interesting question because it brings to light the limiting beliefs that I just was harboring unknowingly. I just assumed that was out of the question. I was like, I'm not made for that. Like, I will not do well in that field. And I also had the intrinsic belief that I later found out is it not not true at all, that research was the opposite of like creative. So I thought that like if I did, if I did something else, then that's when I'd be able to use creativity and like, you know, maybe do science communication, something that I'm more comfortable with.

1:17:06 And I just assumed that research is like you don't have control over anything like you're doing a research project, you have to stay in those parameters. Like I also thought like the project was given to you by someone else. So like you don't even get to choose what you study. Like I had so many misconceptions because I never even looked into research as an opportunity because I was just like, that's not me. Like I can't. And I don't know what prompted this, but I ended up reaching out to one of the course directors for my, for my program. Mia who can boom. And I was like, Hey, I know I'm at that place right now where I need to choose between research and like a placement. And I just kind of, I had a little tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny little bit in my mind that was like, but it'd be so badass if like you did do research.

1:17:55 Yeah, I'm like, what if like, imagine like I was visualizing myself as a researcher, somebody who has done research and I was just like, wow, that would be really cool. Let me just like, you know, check with me and make sure that I was right about all my preconceptions. And then I'll just move on with my placement and be proud of myself, you know, and I met with her and I was like, Hey, okay. So like, I just want to make sure I'm on the right page here. Research just doesn't seem like I can do it. Also, it just feels like really not creative. And I'm such a creative person. And I want that expression. And she just stopped me. And she was like, research is potentially the most creative thing that you can do, because you are literally creating new knowledge.

1:18:36 And I was like, Whoa, that's pretty crazy. Yeah, to be able to create new knowledge like that is like, that is the that creates opportunities for creativity down the line is creativity in and of itself because she explained to me that like, actually, she's like, I'm in control of whatever I want to study, like nobody tells me what I have to study. I come up with an idea, which is creative. I then create an entire method around how to study it, which is creative. I then like, you know, figure out how I want to write that my paper and my literature review and stuff, which is creative, even if it is kind of technical. And I was just like blown away. I was completely just everything was flipped on its head for me then. And so I actually started considering doing research and I had like a two day window to, you know, make my decision and it went from 100% placement to like, Oh, 50% placement and then I was like, screw it, I'm just gonna do research if I don't like it.

1:19:33 I know for the future, but when will I ever in my life, you have another opportunity like this to just try out research in the field that I want to be in with the help of like world class professors and students and students and students. I was like, let's make the most of that tuition money, which I did actually not have to pay because I did get a scholarship, but you know, in theory, I'm like, let's not let's not put this to waste. I could get a job. I feel like I'm very confident I can get a job anywhere else, but I cannot get this opportunity again. So yeah, all the all the like all the respect to you for making that decision. That has to be one of the toughest decisions. To make at that time because like if you do a placement. Yeah, if you do a placement, you're like, there's a good chance that I'll get a job after this because I'll have some experience. I've got some experience with research. You're definitely there's a lot of benefits to that because like you said, you're stepping out of your comfort zone. You're breaking down the barriers that you thought were there before that either you were told or you know, people had sort of put in with you. So I think that's a good thing.

1:20:34 But then you could break down those barriers and be like, no, I actually did this. So there's a lot of like a personal commitment and a personal like sort of like breaking down those barriers, which I really I really enjoy, but doesn't necessarily mean you'll get a job after you know, I mean, we're a placement kind of solidifies. Yeah, exactly. So I think that's a good thing. Yeah, exactly. So I think that's like it as at that time, that must have been one of those you're like, Oh crap, like it's not a flip of a coin. You know, I don't know if you did that, but it's not a flip of a coin. Well, if I jump in, I say, you know, the thing with the research thing is I always tell us the students because the reality is most people are not going to end up getting a job in the field because there's just not that many jobs. But what you get from doing the research is that you're going to get a job after you get a job after you get a job.

1:21:17 And then you have to write the project up. And if you get it published, and then you say, give a presentation or two at a conference, a professional conference, you've just you've just added like three skills to your resume speaking, writing and creativity. And that's almost almost any way to do that. Yeah, and almost any any job, whatever you're going into, those are skills they can see, especially if you're in the sciences like this, they can see you can do stuff. So you've just added some skills to your resume. That's what I tell students if you can get that done. Yeah, and I felt that every step of the way, like, I think that's what I'm doing. I was doing field work, too. So I had to organize like teams, I had to manage volunteers, I had to be responsible for other people, I had to, you know, like project coordination, like team building, like there's so many aspects of it that I'm like, holy cow, I just like expedited my professional.

1:22:11 Experiences that I probably could have gotten and like chunk wise little pieces throughout different jobs. I just like got an expedited version of all of that, like a little condensed bit bit in the course of a year, which was it's incredible. And what'd you end up working on for your for your project? I ended up working under Jalen looking at the ecology of juvenile giant shovel nose rays. Awesome. All right. Yeah, awesome. Awesome. Yes, that's why I was thinking about the wedge fish and guitar fish symposium. I'm coming next time. Okay. Yeah, I should mention spoiler to anybody who hasn't seen all the sharks, how do you recommend that you go see it?

1:22:57 But in that, and I loved how they kept this in and they did it a number of times. Every time you heard of these speak, it was like flat sharks are sharks to it was like, I mean, like there should be t shirts made, there should be hats made, you should have merch made. It was awesome. Every time I heard of like, oh, he's gonna love this. Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, you're you're you do a lot of marketing. And then that's really if you say flat sharks, your audience gets a whole different reaction than if you say, than if you say raise. Yeah, you know, and I've been I've been I've been, you know, I know why they came up with the term Rhino raise for the group for that group of but I they should that what they should use are shark rays.

1:23:38 Yeah, that's true. All you gotta do is the buzzword. Yeah, and I, I, I refer to them as shark rays. And yeah, I get a whole different reaction than if I say Rhino raise, because then they're just thinking like, what's a rhino? It means nothing that the average person. It's that's you say shark, shark rays like a cool frickin movie. Yeah, yeah. And you already can like visualize it, you know, you're like thinking about what it looks like. Like I actually, I just was filming a little like real for Instagram talking about Rhino raise and like the intro that I do. I'm like, okay, today we're going to talk about Rhino raise. But you know, I don't really feel like most people know what that even means what a Rhino Ray is. So to confirm that, let's go ask my volleyball team.

1:24:22 And then I asked all my volleyball team members. I was like, what's a rhino? Ray, I got some crazy answers. And it's just not self explanatory. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, yeah, I expect to see horns like from, everybody said like rhinos. Yeah. Like a Rhino. The truth is like, I'm reading this, I have this next to me because I was reading it before this, but this is like, my favorite book. I'm, it's like my Bible. I'm trying to absorb everything that I can from it. But it talks about like, yeah, very, very, very, very important. Yeah, the, this, this idea of like having a name for something that is still gripping, like in general marketing terms, like, you know, most people are like interested in it. And then like, having it be self explanatory is like two kind of separate different things. Yeah.

1:25:10 Like it's not as fun if it's just like, well, the best, the best example I've ever seen was when I started using the term go shark. Back in 2009, I started using the term, we had a new species we described from off California and I, and when they called up, I said, go shark instead of chimera. And that thing just went viral around the world. And I mean, I, to this day, if I post a, on a go shark, I get a huge response on social media. If I say, people like, I don't know what that is. Nothing. I say, go shark food for all day. I, I like, you know, last year I had a, I had an article with a Brit fan. Oochy. So she was the lead author on a science. It was on the cover of science. And the day before that came out, I had a new species of go shark that I described from off Thailand. I had more hits and follows and publicity for the, for the go shark than for the science article. And that goes, that go shark one almost ran through the year. I was still getting media stuff in October for a thing came out in March in the, and the science article had long since died. It was gone, but I was still getting stuff on the go shark. That's to tell you the power of like using the right terminology to promote stuff.

1:26:28 That's like the coolest example. Cause I'm, this is, I'm still trying to find my passion, right? Like I, I'm in, I'm definitely close. I don't think I've like hit the final one yet, but like more and more, I'm realizing that it kind of, it lays within effective communications, specifically science communication. Like that to me is so exciting just to hear that if you just change the tweak the name of something, like you suddenly get this whole other audience unlocked. Like that's crazy. It's kind of like a strategy game. And I think that that's why I think that's why like science communication has, you know, traditionally not been done so, so well by traditional scientists. It's because, you know, that, and this book talks about it a lot. It's substance and style. It's that we want to get a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, to create Login to care because they don't typically care about chimeras.

1:27:48 What I love about what Randy talks about in that book is like scientists speak to the brain facts, like this and facts and like this is it, like this is climate change, you got to do this and but you got to speak to the stomach because that's like the emotional part, right? I like I've been taking detailed notes on this but pretty much and sorry for the vulgarness but like pretty much like he says that it starts with you know sex organs and then that pretty much targets everybody. Nobody, there's no logic behind that. Everybody is in that that area. So if you like do any like funny joke that plays off of like you know sex or anything, you're probably going to get everybody on it. Yeah, and then it goes down to the gut and where you lose a little bit more people and then it goes down to the heart where you lose a little bit more people and then once you get to the brain and you're talking to the brain, you have a really, really, really small audience and that's typically where scientists end up and that's kind of where they end up communicating.

1:28:38 Yeah, right. I can I can I can I'm at that age where I can I can talk because I've lived through the bullet the traditional when I started out is very traditional, very stodgy when you get together with like people and peers, you know mentors when I started out, you're all enthusiastic talking about it. But if you go to talk but but when a lot of these guys would go talk to the general public, they just fall asleep. The public would you know, and all they'd pick up on like, wow, this guy's really enthusiastic but we don't have anything he's talking about. But what I was there's no so in the key my that time there's no social media with no inner there's no internet, no nothing. So you don't really have that opportunity. But what I was fortunate of is I had a one of my professors, a guy named John McCasker, who was head of the Steinhardt Aquarium, California Academy of Sciences.

1:29:23 He was the first guy brilliant scientist, but he was the first guy I knew and I was just a kid like 22 when I started out. I didn't really know much but he could break down a complicated subject into just layman's terms and make just make it sound like wow, this is so you Oh, yeah, I understand what this guy's talking about. And I didn't realize how unique that was at the time because everybody else that was a mentor to me at that time was pretty much, you know, they didn't feel an obligation to have to communicate to the public. They felt well, they they had more of an attitude. I don't mean it's a negative way, but they felt more of an ad to like, well, the public had to learn what we are taught, learn our expertise rather than us. Right. And so I went on to the little out that you're already kind of more savvy onto this thing.

1:30:29 And Andrew's kind of in the middle. So I'm kind of learning from him on some of this stuff too. And I'm learning from Aliyah. Yeah. And I'm learning from both of you. Yeah. So, but I did, I used that GoShark one because it was such as, it really struck me back then how it just took off. And even to this day, that term just- Well, was it right around Halloween is an international GoShark day you've made? Yeah, that was good. Wow, you made that? Yeah, I started that. Yeah. Wow, that's so cool. It was so funny back in like, when I first got onto, I'd done Twitter and I've really not on there very much, but I saw everybody was putting a hashtag something or other and I said, "Screw this, I'm gonna start International GoShark day."

1:31:11 And so I posted it in 2017, International GoShark day. And I had a few people picked up on it. And then of course all my students. And then like two years later, I had people contacting me saying, "Hey, don't forget October 30th, Dave is International GoShark day." And I'm the guy going, "Yeah, I'm the guy that started it." (all laughing) That is so epic. Yeah, now it's like a regular thing now with International- Yeah, oh my God, I've definitely posted about it. The 52 made a Halloween post last year about International GoShark day. That's hilarious. Oh yeah. Wow. So yeah, we'll be posting it coming up this year because we got the GoShark's the World book coming out in January. I know, I'm so excited.

1:31:51 Yeah, so anyways, that's cool. I think if there's one, this is your episode here, but if you want to think you learned, cause you're starting out, but for me, evolve as you mature I do feel like that is like, I don't even think this is a limiting belief. I think this is the opposite of a limiting belief in the form of a limiting belief, but I don't think that I could ever do anything for more than a few years.

1:32:34 (all laughing) I think that comes down to ADHD. And I think that's why like, I have the most like, I have this really vibrant career history that I like, not even on there. I was a makeup artist for a little bit, believe it or not. Like I thought I was gonna be a fashion designer. I thought I was gonna be an Olympic athlete. Like I hyper-focus on things. And so I get like a ton, I got a ton of experience in one thing cause I literally get obsessed with it for a little bit. And then I move on to the next and I've learned to not fight that urge. So I'm definitely here to go with the flow and continuously evolve like you said. Like I think that's the key to success. And speaking of which, when you look at, we talk about science communication, we talk about wording, we talk about titles, you've started and we'll discuss each one of them, but you started two things.

1:33:20 We're not started, we've been a part of two things. You co-founded the Finstitute, which the name is amazing. Thank you for marketing. Like it's so much fun to say, yeah, big into marketing. And then you also have Naked for Nature, which is in itself, the title is like, sparks curiosity, speak to those organs that you mentioned before. Exactly. You know, and so like, which one came first? Was it Naked for Nature or Finstitute? Naked for Nature. So how did that all start? Where did that come from? I mean, obviously it goes to your photography, it goes to your sort of your love for being underwater, your journey of loving being underwater more and more. How did that all begin?

1:34:01 You know, I'm just gonna relate everything back to ADHD and dyslexia because period, that's like how it is. But yeah, so just a small preface before I give you that full answer. Like I, with, I think this is an ADHD thing and also a dyslexia thing, like just the way that our brains work, like not, there's not a super strong emphasis on fine detail. Like for dyslexia in particular, like the way that our brains work when we're reading is an exact manifestation of that idea. And it's that we don't have three, we have the same parts of the brain as a typical or neurotypical person does. But the thing is we are only using one of those areas to do the job of three specialized areas that are supposed to be active when we're reading.

1:34:48 And as a product, we're obviously not paying as much attention to specific details. And that's why there's like a lot of spelling, like well, spelling errors and reading errors and cognition errors. It's because instead of using three specialized areas, we're having that one area do the job of all three. So it's just, you know, not as detailed. And I think that translates into my life a bit. And I do feel that being okay with imperfection has made me just like launch into things head first without thinking too much. And in a safe way, you know, I'm not talking about Yeah, of course. (both laughing) Anything sketchy, but like definitely in my careers, I'm like, oh, here's an idea. And also mix that with the impulsivity of ADHD.

1:35:29 I'm like, here's an idea, I'm gonna do it. And then we'll just, well, learn and I'll see what happens from it. Yeah. And so- It's almost like throw it up against the wall and see what sticks kind of thing, right? Exactly, exactly. So with Naked for Nature, like that's actually what happens. Like this was back in 2021, I believe, maybe even, sorry. It was in 2020. I was finishing up my degree at Tulane doing psychology. So like really not doing too, like I didn't have any background in academics. You know, I was doing in marine biology. I was doing core restoration work on the side. I was living in Miami during this time because COVID was- COVID and everything, yeah. And I had a GoPro and I had taken a few, not even pictures.

1:36:14 I just was like scanning, taking videos and then I'd go home and I'd screenshot frames that I liked. And I'm like, that's a sick picture. I'm a such a good photographer. That's like literally how it started. And I was like, wait, these are actually really cool photos. And then I ended up, I like was drawing on my iPad and I put a picture, like I put one of my underwater pictures into the silhouette of a female body. Okay. And it made it like it was giving like mermaid vibes. And I just was like so inspired by that. And I was like, wow, that actually looks pretty cool. Like let me try and do that again. And so I asked my friends to like send me, you know, cute bikini pictures and stuff like that.

1:36:55 I was like, do you want to turn yourself into like an ocean conservation emblem? Like just send me a bikini picture and I will literally put the, like my underwater photography within your silhouette and like you can post that. And that's you looking fine. Also with like a huge ocean conservation message behind you. Like, you know, whatever they wanted to fill that like it could be coral reefs or reef fish or sharks. Like I would do that. You weren't subconsciously trying to start a fans only page were you? I know everybody's like, they're like, Aliyah. And I'm like, don't worry. Terrible thing to say. When you start saying that for the typical guys in my mind, you're going like, you start like a fans only or something? No, only fins.

1:37:35 There's a great one. There you go. Only fins. And I actually on naked for nature, I do have a hoodie that says only fins. So quick little plug. But yeah, so it's honestly. You are a marketing genius when it comes to like the puns. I love it. Feel free to plug away all you want. Plug away all you want. I literally cannot be stopped. But yeah, so naked for nature kind of turned it, it was just like a fun little art project, which started on earth day, April 22nd. And then I was like, wait, this is like, you know, this is a business. Like I get people have been asking me like, Oh, can you make me? Can you make one for me? Can you make one for my daughter? Can you make whatever? And so I was like, let's start charging.

1:38:17 My initial model, like again, this was like my first actual business. My initial model, I was like, I'm donating a hundred percent of funds everywhere. So I would have like people choose. I would have like four different ocean nonprofits that I really liked from like different areas, like surfing, coral, sharks, and just like ocean cleanup organizations, for example. I'd have four different options per month on my website. And if you commissioned a piece for me for like $25, you, I would just, you choose which foundation you want me to send that to. And I sent all the $25 like straight to them. Obviously not a very, not very business savvy decision.

1:38:57 Not a lucrative move. It's kind of the thing to do. Like it's a great thing to do to promote it because when people are spending that money, they're just like, oh, that's cool. Like it's going, at least it's going to an organization. Plus I get this. It's kind of like an NFT in a way, you know, it was. It was right. And I actually ended up like partnering with this place called Nemo that was like a coral NFT market. And I had a little collection for them of NFTs. But they're like, yeah, the idea there was to like, and I didn't even know this because I didn't read that book until just recently, but like I was a hundred percent targeting the sex organs. Like my, my, my goal here.

1:39:39 Just the name itself. Yeah. A hundred percent. And that, that was funny because I was actually talking to my friend, Jack Fishman, who said like, I, the one, the first time I posted it, he was like, you need to turn this into a business. And I was like, Oh, you're right. I do. And so I ran the name by him a few times. I was like nude for nature. He's like, no, no, don't do that. And I was like, okay, naked for nature. He's like, yeah, go for it. But pretty much like I did intentionally start it because even then, like before I was in this beautiful echo chamber of marine conservation, even then I recognized that it was an echo chamber and not like the things that I'm seeing, I care about the things that other people are seeing. They care about, but the people who don't care about marine conservation are not seeing the things that I care about or anything about marine conservation.

1:40:22 They're just seeing whatever they want. And so I really wanted to break into a new audience. And I knew that so palpably even back then. And so I I really did. I made this whole thing. I was trying to make ocean conservation hotter, you know, like global temperatures are rising. Love it. Yeah, you know, like, yeah, I love it because my idea was like, OK, well, what if, you know, somebody post this like spicy bikini picture with a like beautiful like marine seascape inside of it and it has this like one line conservation message? Like, for example, I was aggressively vegan during this time. And so I was like, everybody else should be vegan. And so I had one of like this girl with like hair that was all kelp and these little damsel fish and the subjects or the the line was just herbivores do it better.

1:41:12 Yeah, like I want on the website. I can see it. It's all. Yeah, exactly. So I was like, OK, you know, if somebody goes and puts that on their story or posts it and then, you know, freaking Chad from SIGCHI at USC or whatever sees it. Some fraternity like and he's like, oh, she's she's hot or whatever. And he posts it to his story or he sends it to a friend. It's like you're actually like sending conservation messages around. Yeah. And you're sharing the conversation around. Yeah, without even realizing it. And so that was like so not so transparently my goal in doing that. And yeah, it was it was pretty awesome. It was pretty awesome. I actually also ended up running this like 20 again, classic ADHD and impulsivity.

1:41:56 I was like, I'm going to an art show based off what? Like I have zero experience. No, this. But this is art like. Yeah, it deserves an art show. And I was like, OK, let's go. Like let's rent a space. Found the space was way too big for just me. So I was like, OK, let's go scout out some like Miami based ocean conservation artists. So did a lot of networking on Instagram and just putting the word out there. Got seven other artists. Neil Hammerschlag, actually, I reached out to him. I had him as one as the artist because I just loved his underwater photos. Nice amazing sharks. I was like, yeah, hey, also networking. And so I I had like everybody had their own room. I made it like this 24 hour pop up all.

1:42:38 And that's actually kind of when I had the biggest vision of what I wanted Naked for Nature to grow into, which I'm still going to try in the future. Just obviously have to take a hiatus from it. But I wanted it to be like this kind of event company that celebrates nature. So like literally parties to celebrate nature that are eco friendly party. So, you know, not like super wasteful stuff or anything. But we had this huge projector up on the wall with just like footage that I've taken of like manta rays and sharks swimming by everybody surrounded by incredible art that all is ocean themed. We're all raising money for the night for Rescue a Reef in at U Miami, the Rescue Reef program. And it was just like the most inspiring night.

1:43:19 And it was amazing because I did break through the echo chamber. There was probably like 15 scientists there are like friends that I had from U Miami or like, you know, around. But I had divers, spear fishers, surfers, just people who liked art, people who wanted to be in the scene, like friends of friends, like so I had one of my friends, a professional boxer. She came like I just had such an eclectic group of people all there for the same reason. Celebrating nature, which yeah, that's that's a highlight. Career highlight for sure. Yeah. Do you have plans? I see on your website, like that was on there and it's like to be determined for the next show. Do you have plans? I know you're busy, obviously. But I feel like this is a cool event that you could run for, you know, like every once in a while, you know, fine.

1:44:06 Agreed. Like a small gallery or a small shop or something like that. And I feel like this is something that especially to raise awareness because like these are like I know the name sounds provocative, but when you look at these pictures, they're not there for everybody. It's people. It's women with bikinis on and which we wear in public anyway. Exactly. And then when you look at them, like I'm looking at it right now, there's marine conservation. I like it's like pictures of there's no reason. There's no person. So it's nothing like provocative. So like I feel like it's even like somewhat kid friendly, you know, depending on the parent, if they're if they're. Yeah, of course. You know what I mean? So I think and then having that I think it's great.

1:44:47 I also think you have a great merch line ahead of you. You know, this kind of stuff with, you know, friendly merchants. I feel like I know that's difficult to kind of put together. But I feel like they're like, do you have plans, do you think, to do this again? Or is this something like you did once and you're like, oh, maybe again, like, I don't know. I actually really wanted to do something at JCU when I was chatting with. I was chatting with this woman who was working at JCU to like kind of put something on. But yeah, I honestly feel like it was the next two weeks that I was like, actually, I'm going to start this too. So I just kind of got a little bogged down with with that.

1:45:29 But I do want to do more like this in the future. And I think that's a great like, I agree with what you said, like maybe once a year, once a quarter, whatever it is. But just kind of like bring people together and then bring their plus ones together and then, hey, look, oh, you're actually at an ocean conservation event. Did you know that? Oops. Yeah, I need to talk because I have I have some ideas that I saw. I would love to. Yeah, I would love to. I think it'd be good. But speaking of Finstitute, one, I see a collab between, you know, the events you put on for Finstitute and Naked for Nature. I see that. For sure. I know. But you mentioned Finstitute, like you started like that, like two weeks later. Talk about like I know we've talked about how to protect the ocean. But, you know, a lot of the people who are listening here haven't listened to that episode because it's just different audiences.

1:46:14 Can you just talk about how that came to be? Had a co-founder, how that all came to be and what it's become now? Hundred percent. I'll try my best to get the consolidated version. Here we go. Lots happened. A lot happened. Let's just say. Oh, my gosh. OK, so back in the day, 2023, I saw a post. From a very famous shark fisherman that was taken pretty much in my backyard in Miami, where I was always scuba diving and snorkeling, holding a critically endangered hammerhead that he had just fished, really sent me on a spiral. I wanted to target like changing the perceptions in Florida shark fishermen initially because I was like, he's the problem.

1:46:54 People are like him with the problem. And then I called my family and they talked me off the ledge. They're like, look, girl, like you, we you've talked to us enough for us to know that he is not the problem. Florida shark fishermen are probably one percent of the problem of why sharks are dying around the world. And like they're definitely the loudest, but they are by no far the biggest. So if you want to have the biggest impact and stop sharks from being killed, like let's go and be more effective with that. Like location decision. And I was secretly like, thank God, because I could not do this. If I tried. So I ended up initially I wanted to make it like a project. And I was like, wow, I had a huge club because I was like, you know, I've seen them on Instagram a bunch and I was like, wow, what they do is so amazing.

1:47:37 And like it does sound so amazing. But what I did before I started it, I don't know, again, what triggered this. But I reached out to Andrew Chin, who had up until this point never responded to a single email that I had ever sent him. I was like, does he even work here anymore? Like, I literally couldn't even tell. And then I said this last, like, last, last ditch effort. And he said, I'm going to go to Andrew fashion. And I just responded. He's like, I'm free tomorrow at ten. I'm like. OK, where? OK. Never mind. I'll find you. I'll find you. I'll be there. I'll be there. And so he ended up meeting with me and he was like, OK, look, you're good to start Project Q Club.

1:48:20 Like, that sounds awesome because it sounds like there's a lot of resources that you both would be able to participate in and like do well. But what if you branched out like Project Q has this incredible global platform already enough that you don't have a chance to see? But what about all those local Indonesian organizations that are doing incredible work on the ground, but they just do not have the global platform that Project Q has? And I was like, whoa, you're so right. Like, done. And then that's when the kind of consortium model was formed. Luca comes into this, who is my co-founder, because when like after I had after ADHD, we're going back in time now. So I had just seen that post on Instagram of the shark head, like the shark camera.

1:49:02 And then I had to go ironically to my marine conservation biology class, which during the entire thing, I was just like sitting there blankly. I was like, what the heck do I do? What the heck do I do? What the heck do I do? And then I leave class with Luca and another friend and we're walking and I'm telling them because I literally can't keep a thought to myself. So I'm telling them exactly what's on my mind and all this issue with the shark fishing. And I stopped literally dead in my tracks and I was like, hold on, I'm going to go start a club right now. And I literally turned around and walked to the J.C. USA office, like just impulsive. And Luca was just like, what? Just kept walking. But he immediately texted me. Like my phone immediately lit up. He's like, I have no idea what you're doing, but I'm in.

1:49:45 I love it. And from that moment forward, it has been a full on partnership. Like that night we met in the kitchen of our dorm and we're just like brainstorming ideas. And so what the Institute is, it's a student led shark conservation consortium supporting different shark conservation initiatives in Indonesia and in Australia.

1:50:27 And I chose Indonesia because that's the largest shark fishing market that we're close closest to. And I just feel like we already have like through my lab, like there's also some like, you know, people have connections to some of the organizations there already. And so I was like, OK, that seems like a pretty, pretty great place to start to try and have an impact. So, yeah, the the idea was multifold. One of them was to support on the ground like organization. So we're not here to like jump in, do some parachute science and jump out. Like I didn't want to just be like, hey, let's go start a club in Indonesia. Let's like start one, you know, that just takes over things that people are already doing. Because I just feel like in conservation, so much work is happening in parallel, like similar things going on and different like, you know, going like this.

1:51:17 But I just feel like there needs to be intersection and collaboration. And that's kind of the basis of the institute. It's like, OK, there's incredible stuff happening already. What do they need to in order to amplify and expedite their their mission and what they're trying to do? And a lot of the times it comes down to, you know, like doing like photo identification analysis, like they have a huge photo base of all these different things that they want to analyze. But they just don't have enough people power to actually get through it. But they have an incredible library. So like that's something that we can help with as institute members, because the other side of this, aside from, you know, helping different organizations do their thing. We as J.C. students like love J.C.U.

1:51:57 But I felt starved of opportunities to participate in any capacity in the shark or rave field and in any field, to be honest, like, you know, it was even volunteer based. I was like, I will do it for free. No, no money. And still, it was super duper duper difficult to even get my foot in the door and anything, especially because I had just come from a degree that virtually had nothing to do with marine science. So even on the volunteer list, there was like rankings where it was like, oh, OK, cool. You already have experience in aquaculture. You can get in next. And I was like, well, I'm never getting anywhere. And so look at me. You really didn't be tight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it just kind of felt gate kept.

1:52:39 And I was and I also had zero classes on sharks and rays and I was genuinely quite interested in them. And I was just like, if I'm feeling this, certainly the student body is feeling worse. So Luca and I started this institute with a very specific model involved. Also, I was genuinely disappointed. I had joined a few like school clubs. I will. I guess I won't name them. Maybe I will. And you can decide if you want to take it out. The J.C.U. Marine Society. I joined them and I was so excited because I was like, yes, like a group of nerds. We're going to have like talks and lectures and like cool things are going to happen. And it was just like like a monthly or bimonthly like social event at a pub.

1:53:21 I was like, wait, but what about learning? Yeah, can we get some education? And yeah, there was nothing going on. So I was like, Luca, we're doing this right. We're doing it the way I want, which is, yeah, we're doing biweekly meetings. And I wanted to make sure that those meetings didn't feel like other lectures. So I had like a very specific time frame for everything. I was like, I want to I want these to be like quick, quick master courses. I want people to understand all the different areas that they could go into, into like shark and ray conservation. And I don't want them to be regurgitated lectures. So I was like, OK, 15 minutes, we get two speakers per session, 15 minute talk, 15 minute talk. And then I wanted to make sure that people are leaving bed and they came in with their CVs.

1:54:04 And so I wanted hands on learning experience in some capacity. So that was ambitious. But it actually worked for the most part. We ended up going with one speaker, one workshop now, because it was just a lot. Yeah. But yeah, workshops involve things like, you know, last like shark age, like verbal aging techniques to understand like how people are used, like how people are telling how old sharks are at the current moment. Or I taught underwater photography and photo editing workshop, because like I would have freaking loved to take something like that. And yeah, like suturing, Nico, Dr. Niko Lubitz had actually got us like a bunch of mullet and taught us like suturing workshops so that we could actually learn like hands on stuff for like field based work as well.

1:54:47 And yeah, so like people were leaving better than they came in. And it's just kind of expanded since then. We've created we've also partnered with sharks for kids recently, which I am so excited about. Yeah, it's a gillion horse. I have so, so excited. But we've created like an outreach team utilizing resources that already exists. No need to admit the wheel. Like she's got it covered. Absolutely. So we've got an outreach team. Now we just had a partnership with Spottershark here in Australia, which was an example of the photo identification stuff that we've been doing. Like she has this, Sarah, the president of Spottershark has this incredible library of thousands and thousands of pictures of gray nurse sharks across Australia. And they really needed this one area to like, they really needed data on this one area to look at the sharks and see if they had any fishery related injuries in order to protect them better, obviously, but they didn't have the manpower to go through 3500 pictures by the end of this month to submit it for, you know, a report that was due to lobby for it.

1:55:47 And so I was like, hold on, like I have an entire army of students that are gunning for any opportunity they can to get involved in meaningful shark conservation to do any type of research. And I was I was part of it too. I'm like, I know photo identification, like analysis is not super glamorous when you're like higher up in your career. It's kind of like, I shouldn't be doing this. I don't need to do this. Like, you know, people probably don't feel that way. But you know, I get you. I get you. But I'm like, to me, even like two undergrads who don't have any experience, who just want experience to put on the resume to get their foot in the door. That's like life changing. And so I initially was going to make a group of just 10 people, but I had 26 incredible applicants apply and I was like, heck yeah, the more the merrier.

1:56:31 So we spent we split 3500 pictures up against 26 people. I think it was like 140 ish pictures in two hours. Yeah, two hours. We that group was so passionate and dedicated and so detail oriented. We got that whole data set done within a week. And like, I have follow up messages like that was the most meaningful thing I've done so far. Mike, my degree and like I've not been able to contribute in this way before. So thank you so much for the opportunity. And you feel accomplished. That would have just been sitting somewhere. Yeah, exactly. Accomplished, right? That's so important for students to feel like I've done something, you know, out of this, I think that's great. And they can add it to like, that's a skill. They've now done injury assessments on grain of charge. And it's something that might actually go to inform policy change. Like, and they would have been a direct contributor to that.

1:57:20 So that you hit on a thing there, too. It's like, you know, if you can show people like young people starting out, like, that's a skill you learn. Gets back to the speaking, writing, publishing, all of their skills that those are sort of intangible skills that you can do pretty easily. And it makes a powerful impact on a resume for a young person. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so I got I got to ask you about we have we got a little bit now. I haven't seen your Netflix show yet. So don't give me any spoiler alerts yet. But why don't you tell us a little bit more like about like, how did you get involved in that? And and what was it like doing the show? And again, don't give me anything away. I haven't seen it yet. I won't catch it.

1:58:01 So I won't. I won't. But Andrew, you can't give anything away either. I can't help it. I can't help it. I just say, like, I'm too excited about this, but I just answer Andrew. Yeah. So I guess everybody's curious to hear like how I got this opportunity. And like, the answer is I have no freaking idea. Like, I did not apply. I did not try out like get whatever. I have talked to the producer who ended up casting me for this, like extensively. And he's like, I think this is how. But I, in classic ADHD fashion, boldly started a video podcast series of which I did a single episode on before just like moving on to the next thing. And it was through Naked for Nature, actually. So shout out Naked for Nature. But I had interviewed my friend Lauren, who was a shark diver in Jupiter about sustainable shark eco tourism. Right.

1:58:58 And it was the only thing on the internet tying my name to the word shark. And it was a video of me talking and knowing what I was talking about. And I think that is literally how this guy found me. And then I got an email, like, I don't know, I don't actually know how much later, but I just got an email from this guy named Mike with a Y. And I was like, this is a scam. And it was just like, oh, I've cast you for this shark TV show, blah, blah, blah. I didn't have anything on my socials or anything to indicate that I was really into sharks at this point in my life. So I was like, that is way too specific. I'm in. So yeah, I interviewed with him. That was like, nearly three years ago now. Oh, wow. It's been in the making for a while. Yeah. Well, I literally did not believe it was happening until I was in the Maldives. But yeah, it was a slow burn that he cast me then. And then that show initially didn't go through. So a year later, I got the same message from him. And I was like, yo, what? Whatever.

1:59:56 I'll call you. I'll see what it's like. And he's like, this is really happening. And yeah, and I literally still like heard nothing from him up until like, like a week before. The general date vicinity. And he's like, you'll just get a plane ticket. You'll get a date and you're like, what am I getting kidnapped or something? Like what? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I'll meet you on the Maldives. Like, come on. He FaceTimed us. Like he FaceTimed the cast. Like, you know, maybe a week before we were supposed to leave. He told us all this. Like, you'll get a plane ticket. Like, we don't know when it starts. We don't know where it starts. We don't know who else is on it. Also, you can't talk about this because it's just a NDA and I was just like, he's like any questions. I was like. Am I getting traffic? And he was like, he was like, what? People don't realize that which you have to ask that kind of stuff. Like, it's like, there's too much secrecy involved sometimes. I know. I was like, thank you. That's all I need. And he's like, and if he were, why would I? Why would I? Yes. Well, I tell you, it's not a question. If you're trying to get an answer. But it's like, I hope you're doing it. And I'm not going to be able to answer your question. I'm not going to be able to get this. You're going to be talking about the question. I'm going to be able to answer your question. I'm going to be doing it. I'm going to be getting a question. But the question is, like, what is it? I'm going to be getting a question. I'm going to be talking to you.

2:01:02 You are, you are, and I'm like, I'm just trying to feel better now. By the way, just to warn you, you will be trafficked. (laughing) So yeah, we made it, and that's like an ongoing joke between all the producers now. They're like, "Leah, do you believe us now?" (laughing) Yeah, kinda, kinda. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, look, this is, it's a cool show. Give us the premise of the show before we go any further. Yeah, so pretty much it's a competition show between four different teams of shark experts or enthusiasts that travel the world to photograph the most amount of different species of sharks and rays that they possibly can to gain points to ultimately be the winner of all the sharks.

2:01:44 And it's cool, cause it breaks out of that echo chamber Yes. being a contest show, you know? Yes, and it's kinda like the same thing we've been talking about throughout this episode. It's just something different. It's something that people can get into cause it's like a game show. It's not invasive. You know what I mean? Right. There's no touching of sharks. Exactly. There's no hanging on the fins of a shark. I have seen more species on this show, these six episodes that I have seen for 20 years in Shark Week. Let's be honest. 100%. Right, and Dave, you can probably like, once you see it, you'll be like, yeah, I get it. And the education that came along with that, there's like a little profile of every shark. If it's a new shark, they put a profile conservation status, you know, age, like approximate age range.

2:02:28 When I saw that, I was like, this is amazing. Like not only is it entertaining, there's, you know, obviously I was going for your team, you and MJ, and I was like, but it's like, you go for somebody and it's, you know, nobody was, it's one of those things that gets like a reality show, but not like a reality show. Like you weren't at each other's throats. You weren't pitted against each other in a way. You know, I think somebody found something and I forget the shark was in Bimini. You're like, oh, you found that? Like I've never seen that before. And there was like crazy amount of points. No spoilers, but anyway, it was just really cool. The way it all turned out, like being a part of something like that and seeing, like I know we kind of chatted before and like, I have no idea what this is going to look like.

2:03:13 I'm a little nervous. I think you even put on your social media. Like I have no idea what this is going to be. I haven't seen the first cut or the edit. It's really interesting like to see that and especially with the history of scientists being manipulated within the media, when you watch the show, what was the feeling going through as you were watching it? Oh, relief. Oh my gosh. Cause like they, they sold it to us exactly how it was, but I am obviously incredibly skeptical of like media, especially shark media. So I was just like, did I just throw out my little tiny career that I just started in science?

2:03:54 Oh well. But I was genuinely like, oh, this is so good. This is exactly what was sold to us. So relief. Well, and I'll tell you the cinematography was impeccable. Oh my God. I have to shout that out because I don't think the general public understands how freaking tough it was obviously to get the shots of the sharks and us in the shots, like getting the sharks and rays and stuff. But like this was a contest. I wasn't waiting for anyone. Like I was in the water. I was sprinting after like, you know, not, not, not too close to animals or stuff.

2:04:34 But if I saw a shark over in the distance, I'm like booking it there. I'm not waiting for anyone. Exactly. Like I'm not waiting for anyone. And these cameramen underwater with these massive red cameras have to be like chasing us full, full speed. Cause I'm like, this is life or death. Like I'm not here to lose. So I'm like running and they had to chase us like, Yeah, that's awesome. I, you know, I, you know, I, I, you know, I think in Andrew, we had, we had last fall, we had Alex McInturff on from the, from the lab up at Oregon state. She is a super competitive person. She played college soccer. She's still super. We talked about that on the episodes.

2:05:15 Oh, she'd be perfect for this one. I'd be perfect. The only problem there would be taken, she'd, she'd be, she'd be awesome. She'd get fit. She'd be, you'd be careful. Yeah, you have to be okay. You might get a shiv in your back or something, man. She's like, the one this thing I could do. And Alex, we're out there. Love you, man. We just didn't want to, I just thought about you in this whole show. So, but anyway, We know what's funny. This is just a funny little bit, but we'll two things. One, I, the first scenes that they filmed in, in the Maldives, like they had us, you know, all standing fish. The host was telling us what the rules were. And then he was like, get up and get out there.

2:05:56 And I had no idea what was going on. I thought everything was a contest. So I picked up my bag and I sprinted right out of frame, like not in the drone shot. I'm so far away from everyone because I'm, I have no idea where I'm running. I'm just sprinting. I'm like, I'm not losing this race. Let along this game. I will win each little battle. Literally. I'm like, I'm chipping away at everyone here. So that's, that's fun. Oh, great. Great. Well, yeah, it was, you know, Leah, we'll have to have you come back on. This has been a fricking amazing episode here. And I'll, I'll, I'll try to make a point to watch, watch the series here. So they can and thank you so much.

2:06:37 We just got to ask you like, so where do you see, kind of our final question is where do you see your career? Like five, 10, 20 years. This is the question I want to hear. Yeah. No. Five years from now, I hope to have been to Antarctica. That's as far as that's been on my five year plan for the past two years. So that's gotta happen in the next three years. I hope to get to Antarctica at some point. And I also hope to be fully working for myself and the Finstitute full time and traveling the world, showcasing the beauty of it to the general public. No idea what that will look like, but generally on the run.

2:07:19 Awesome. Yeah. We wish you all the best in your journey and we'll definitely have you come back on and update us and how your, how your progress is going on your journey out. Yeah. I see what's happening with the Finstitute in like a year from now. I think it'll be a lot of fun. Oh yeah. A lot of updates. A lot of updates. Yeah. Yeah. Catch us at Sharks International. Yes. I'll see you there. I'll see you there. I'll see you there. See you in Colombo next year. See you in Colombo. I'll be there. So cool. All right. I'm so excited. Thanks a lot. We have, sorry. We have one more question that we ask every, everybody. Oh yeah. Like you've been through a lot. It's early on in your career. What any, and you probably do a lot of like mentoring with the Finstitute.

2:08:02 What would you suggest, you know, if people want to get into shark science or shark conservation or even science communication, what would you recommend they do? Like what would be your big suggestion? Like the one thing. Why do you say one? (laughing) Okay, give us three. If you want to do more, that's fine. You can do more. Maybe if you want. I'll just do two. The first is like a mini plug because this just is a new development, but the Finistitudes officially accepting international members, non-student members. Like that is a really great resource. We are making, we're hosting international sharks science expeditions starting actually right after sharks international in May, 2026. And then we also have a ton of resources that we're gonna make available on our website that will just help you get your foot in the door, help you just learn a little bit more about the field and the realities of the field and stuff like that.

2:08:52 But I would also just say on like a philosophical level, just for success in life in general, just don't wait for the perfect moment. Just send it. Just send it because you don't know what, you don't know what you're capable of until you do it. And the best way to learn is through experience. So I say, just send it. I love that. I love that. Thank you so much for coming on. I mean, this has been a big pleasure for us to have you on the podcast. You bring such a great energy to the interview and congratulations on the success of all the sharks. I, you're gonna, Netflix is going to get a boost in Burlington, Ontario, where I live because I've been telling everybody.

2:09:32 Like I have friends who like come to me, like their kids have questions about, you know, marine biology and like sharks. And I'm like telling them like, this is what you want to watch, you know, because every time they see someone, they're like, should I watch this? I'm like, no, don't watch this. Watch this. Like watch this one. This is the one you want to watch. So, so I thank you for that, for being a part of that and for bringing this to to the public, you know, as you, you're still, you know, you're changing the game the way it is. And we really appreciate that and coming on here and sharing that with us. So we really do appreciate it. Thank you so much. Anytime. Oh my gosh. Thank you guys so much. Take care. All right. Thank you, Aliyah, for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Josh podcast. It was such a treat to have you on.

2:10:15 Dave, what did you think of the interview? Oh, it was awesome. I mean, it definitely was. I didn't have a lot. I didn't really know that much going in, but boy, we could have gone on for another hour, which means it was just a great thing because we'll probably have her back on to have another hour with her. She's actually she was just like a live wire with all the stuff she's done. Oh man. And as you know, that was prepping for the introduction. I was going through all of her materials and I was just kind of like, holy smokes. How do we put this in like a short brief type of thing? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I know. So it was great. And I really enjoyed it. As you heard her show, I didn't really I haven't seen the series yet. So I'll probably have to watch it now to see what happens. So I didn't want to. I didn't want to share exactly what happened in the show or who you want to watch it.

2:10:56 Yeah. I'll watch it now and see what happens. And but yeah, I know she was terrific. I mean, for actually she didn't we didn't want to discuss ages because some of us are much, much older. So we just but we want to do. But she's for her early career. She's done an amazing amount of stuff. And again, one of these people like we didn't even dwell on too much about she up and left went left the U.S. and went to halfway around the world to Australia and started this whole new career, this whole new life on things. And so, yeah, so it was just it was an amazing. It was an amazing interview. I just really, really pleased. I'm really glad glad you recommended her and yeah, we were able to get her on the show show here to do.

2:11:41 And I think what I also love, too, just in terms of all the projects that she's done, but I think all in sort of the how she defines it as part of her sort of like neurodivergent behavior, the ADHD, the dyslexia, she's very open with it. It almost prevented her sort of like the box. She kind of put herself in, not necessarily put herself in, but what she heard that she might be better at doing than others and that she didn't consider research as part of what she would be able to do. She didn't think because of what the ADHD and the dyslexia, it might not be a good fit. And then it ends up being a good fit. You know, I think and she discovers that by putting herself out of her comfort zone and then going through it and now allowing other people to not fall into those sort of myths that that happen and understanding that research is a creative process.

2:12:27 It's not just math. It's not just reading and putting in a formula. It can be very, very creative, which you obviously know and I know. But it's interesting how all these outside pressures and sort of these boxing in of individuals that have a specific neurodivergency or whatever you want to call it, you know, put like that could prevent them from doing stuff, even though they don't try and discover it for themselves. So really respect what she's done. It's obviously not an easy thing to do, but I love how she is openly talking about it. Even after we we stopped recording, she talked about the fact that people are reaching out and, you know, being like, hey, really happy you're doing this.

2:13:09 It makes me want to do research and so forth. So I think it's really important to hammer home here in this. Oh, yeah. No, I think so. I think so as well. Like I said, she she she talked about her, you know, about her her this, you know, I say disability, but the thing she had to overcome and everything. And I think she's done very well. She's just I think part of it. She's got the energy. She's got the drive to want to do. And the creativity is huge. Yeah, it dwelled on that. It's huge. You know, even while we're talking on the show, we're we're talking about different things. She's coming up with ideas like, hey, we can call it this or call it that. You know, you know, the the the puns and the. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The the the the the fins only, you know, it's only only only fins.

2:13:52 Yeah. I thought that was that was it. She just came up with that right off the top. Yeah, it was great. So, yeah, no, it was it was terrific having her here in her story and everything and being so young and having done so much already. It'll be interesting to see. And she's got I think I like about it, too. She has goals. She wants to do. He wants to accomplish certain things. Has a time frame on it. And I think that's always for me. I think personally, that's a good thing to have have goals, you know, and have some time frames. It gives you something to work towards. Yeah. And stuff. Sometimes you go, Mike, in a different direction, but at least you you have some goals to follow and everything. So, yeah, I think that's pretty good. That's pretty good. So, yeah, I hope everybody checks out her show.

2:14:33 I'll have to watch it now. And then, as I say, check out the check out the episode with her and get on and follow the Fins Institute and her other startup businesses. And yeah, they will. We'll look forward to having her back here soon. Absolutely. Find out more about what's happened with the Institute. And I think we need to work with her. Yeah. And I think we'll have a good time with her. Yeah. I think it's really great. We need to do a live session and make it for nature and all our other projects that she's a part of as well as working. We didn't even get to it. Working for Sydney Institute of Marine science. Oh, yeah. Is communicator, which is amazing. So I think that's really great. So, yeah, always love. Always love talking to to Alia and will definitely have her back on. So thanks again, Alia. We'll put links to her website and her social so you can get to know her a little bit better.

2:15:20 and Instagram, but please go to my Lost Shark YouTube channel. All the series, searching for Lost Sharks, Extinct or Alive, and then of course Beyond Jaws Pod as well. Please follow us along there and leave comments on both sites. We like, Andrew and I like to get feedback on the shows and episodes we do and that helps us plan for the future episodes. Yeah, yeah. I love that idea. And then if people want to get a hold of us, Beyond Jaws Pod on Instagram at Beyond Jaws Pod. And I want to thank you so much, Leah, for coming on the podcast. Dave, this is always fun to do this type of work. We even talked to Leah about an hour and a half after, almost two hours after the show. So a lot of projects coming and maybe little discussions after, which will be great.

2:16:04 But we want to thank you guys for supporting us, continuing to support us, continue watching and continuing sharing each of your favorite episodes and clips. So check us out on YouTube at Beyond Jaws Podcast. We'd love to hear from you and leave comments on the on, on, you know, just below the video and stuff and always get a hold of us on Instagram. Thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the Beyond Jaws Podcast. Have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and have a conservation.