37 Shark and Ray Species Documented in Benin: Inside West Africa's Shark Research

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Today on the podcast, we got a special
guest from the country of Benin.

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We have Houangninan Midinoudewa who is on
the podcast today to talk about his career

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developing in Benin when there hasn't
really been much shark research at all.

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so we're gonna talk about that, what it's
like to have, like, work from a couple

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of predecessors who worked on sharks,
but really developing new shark species.

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There's a crazy number of sharks and rays
in this country, on the coast, and we're

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gonna find out all about it on today's
episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey, everybody.

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Welcome back to another exciting
episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I'm your co-host, Andrew Lewin, here
with my co-host, Dr. David Ebert.

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Dave, are you excited to learn
about sharks and rays in Benin?

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Absolutely.

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this is pretty awesome, Andrew.

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We've had, West Africa has just
literally been kind of an unknown

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territory for sharks and rays generally.

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We've had an amazing run this year with
people from West Africa who are really

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starting up, to research in there.

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We've had people, we've had
GoFrom, we've had Anna Lucia on.

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We've had, Issah.

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It's just been some
terrific people we had.

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We even had, people on from Namibia,
so it's just been a terrific time,

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a great, just really exploring
a whole new frontier out there.

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Yeah.

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And so I'm really excited
about this episode.

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I'm really happy we, I got to meet him
in, Sri Lanka at the Sharks International.

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Thanks again to Andy Chen-

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Yeah

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…
uh, for introducing us.

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And, yeah, I'm really
excited about this show.

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Yeah, no, this is exciting.

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Like, you expect to meet people.

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Like I've done How to Protect the
Ocean for almost 12 years now.

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And then Beyond Jaws, we've been
doing this since 2021, so five years.

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And, we meet a lot of cool people.

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People from all over the world
and I think it's, really cool.

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But to see how we are discovering
on our own journey about the people

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who are working in places like West
Africa and South America, and so,

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where we haven't really seen a lot of,
information come out, and it's just

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starting to come out more and more.

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So this is quite exciting, you know-
Yeah … as for our podcast to be able

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to have that ability to put, people on a
platform where other people from around

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the world- can hear what they're doing.

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Yeah, I just wanna add too, like,
he's a big fan of the podcast.

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Yeah.

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When I met him, yeah, him and
Issah were both like, "We listen

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to the podcast all the time."

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And who would've thought, West
Africa, you know- Yeah … of all

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places, that we're popular like that.

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And, I think it also says a lot about
our, podcast that we're reaching people

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in all over the world and, more out
of the way locations like West Africa,

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which is predominantly French speaking-

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Right

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as well.

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Yeah.

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So I'm, kinda happy that, we
have such a reach out there.

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I don't think there's any other
sharky podcast out there right

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now that has that kinda reach.

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I don't

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think there is.

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And, uh, I think a lo- yeah, and
I think a lot of it's just sharing

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the stories of these people, like
Houangninan and, Issah, and all these

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other people we've had on there.

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It's terrific getting to know
them, getting to know their story.

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Absolutely.

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I'm gonna love this interview
and I think the audience is gonna

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love it too, so let's get into it.

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Here is Houangninan talking
about his shark career.

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I can't wait to talk about the number of
species that, they've discovered so far.

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Enjoy the interview.

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We'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Houangninan.

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Welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about elasmobranchs?

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Yeah, I'm really excited
to be with you guys.

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Thank you.

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Well-

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You bet.

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You bet.

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Well, welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast,
where we have an amazing guest, and who's

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also happens to be a huge fan of the show.

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He's from a country that a lot of
people probably need to check a

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map to find out where it's located.

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We have Dr. Houangninan Midinoudewa,

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and I apologize, I will get
the name right here before.

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I'm sorry.

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from the West African country of Benin.

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I met Houangninan at the Sharks
International recently through

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our mutual friend Andrew Chen, who
introduced him, and, rec- another

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recent guest, Issah Seidu, who
are both big fans of the podcast.

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So as a hint to others out there who might
be listening, if you wanna be a guest

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on the show, it always helps if you want
to butter up Andrew and I with flattery.

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It might just get you on the podcast.

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Houangninan is a fisheries biologist
who holds a bachelor's degree in

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law and political sciences from
the University of Abomey-Calavi.

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Also has a… Okay, cool.

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I got, got that one right.

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also a master's degree in applied
hydrobiology with a major in fisheries

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biology, also from the same university.

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And he holds a PhD in oceanography
and limnology from the University

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of Cape Coast in Ghana.

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He's a founder of the Benin Marine
Conservation Club, a research-based

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NGO, and a member of a regional working
group in fishery science, including

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fisheries committees for the East Central,
uh, Atlantic, and the West African

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Marine Fish DNA Barcoding Network.

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He's currently a research associate,
I'm gonna do the English translation

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'cause my French is nonexistent.

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He's with the Institute of Fisheries
and Oceanological Research in Benin, and

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he's a coordinator of the Early Career
Ocean Professionals Benin in Node.

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He's also a consultant to Benin's NGO
and international NGOs and institutions

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working in the biodiversity field.

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He's authored and co-authored
scientific papers, book sections,

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and, uh, research papers.

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His latest paper is on the
rediscovery of coral reefs off Benin.

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He's a happy, very happy supervisor,
and he co-supervises currently four

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bachelor's and master's students
from European and Benin universities.

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Man, he's got a ton of
stuff this guy's going onto.

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We're gonna try and get right to it.

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So Houangninan, welcome very
much to the show, buddy.

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Thank you for having me here.

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Great.

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so our, asking our first question
is, how did you get interested in

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marine science and sharks and rays?

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Oh, thanks for this nice question,
and thank you again, well,

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for having me on this podcast.

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I think this is one of the podcasts
when you are marine scientist you

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have to listen to and to get advices
and get so many things to move ahead.

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Oh, thank you.

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So how I-

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Appreciate

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that … how I got here.

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Yeah.

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This is a, how may I put it?

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The childhood, dream
that's come to reality.

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'Cause, uh, when I was child, my
father and my mother was aware, the

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one who has pushed me into this field,

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Really?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Showing me, uh, This French
oceanographer, um, Cousteau's

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videos, books, and so many things.

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I, I was like, "Oh, this is really what
I want to do." But when I reached the

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junior high school, I was much more
interested in archeology and other

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stuff related to the, old history.

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But coming back to universities
and during, practicals, uh, at

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the senior high, high school, I
discovered that my old dream is

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still there, and I need to revive it.

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So quickly back to, back to 2008,
when I reached university, uh, I

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went out for an internship, one month
internship in the institute where I'm

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currently, uh, as a research associate.

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there, this guy who has become my mentor,
my supervisor throughout my, um, bachelor

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to PhD, Professor Karuso, he came, he
told me, "Uh, you have three choices.

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Either you choose, uh, going for coastal
erosion, or you go for mammal, marine

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mammals, or you go for sharks and
rays." I said, "Oh, sharks and rays."

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And quickly I remember this expedition,
the, uh, Cousteau called Glombaza

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or something like that, uh, talking
about this old fish still alive in

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Comoros, Madagascar, and other stuff.

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So I said, "Oh, no, better I choose
sharks and rays. They have been

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there living for a long while,
and I can still manage with them."

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So that's how I got into, uh, marine
sciences, and I become a, really, I'm

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really in love with sharks and rays.

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And as I'm at, um, uh, we are discussing
currently, I just came back from the

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field, 45 minute ago because, uh- Mm-hmm.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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I needed to be in the field, and I'm
really happy because two days I was

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able to, finally see a species that I
have been, you know, dreaming about.

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And this, um, is a part of the
torpedoes, um, species, um, Tetrodon

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nobiliana, a small torpedo.

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I was really happy.

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And people who were with me said, "Aman,
what is going on?" I said, "No, no, no,

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I can't tell you what I have seen." So
if I tell you, I will be in trouble.

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But really lucky, uh, I'm really lucky to
be in this, uh, in this field and working

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with so many people, meeting people like
Dave, uh, during Sharks International.

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Mm-hmm.

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Uh, discussing with Seidu Issah
and so many guests, uh, like Gofrey

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that you had, in this- Mm-hmm … on
this, uh, podcast few- Gofrey.

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Yeah, few months ago.

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And discussing also with Rebecca
Delgado, who has been a p- a person

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that I've been looking for to
discuss, to work with, and yeah.

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Yeah.

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Really happy to be this, in this field.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Yeah, it was, like I said, it's exciting
for me to meet you because I, You know, I,

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I've been all over the world, especially
in Africa, but I was really unaware

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of what was going on in your country.

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And so I was very excited to meet you.

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thanks again to Andrew
Chin, uh, who introduced us.

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can you tell us a little bit like--
We talked a little bit before the show

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about, the history of, uh, people doing,
uh, any kind of shark and ray research,

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like, before you, 'cause you're really
kind of a, one of the first people or few

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people I know from doing any work there.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, you're right.

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Yeah.

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I'm not the first one, studying
sharks and ray in Benin, but, uh,

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q-quickly, let me talk about my country.

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So Benin- Yes,

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please

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…
Benin is just a small
country, but big by the heart.

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two days ago, we have one of our
famous artists, Angélique Kidjo,

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having a, a sound on the will, uh,
how they work, the Walk of the Fame

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in California or something like that.

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I'm not too much fond of music, but yeah.

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Benin is that small country, but
big by the heart, big by what we do.

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And we are just the neighbor, the eastern
neighbor of Nigeria, the big Nigeria.

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Mm. So the where-- And we are
located within the Gulf of Guinea.

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You know, you may heard sometimes they say
Gulf of Benin, but it's not much accepted.

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So it's-- they say Gulf of,
Guinea instead of Gulf of Benin.

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So that small area, that small
country I'm living in, and studying

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sharks and ray from that country and
sharing my result with the, the world.

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So now, uh, people before me working,
who have worked on sharks and ray in

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the country, there was only one person.

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Mm. Uh,

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his name is Prosper.

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Prosper studied in Cuba a few years
ago, but he's currently on retirement.

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And he conducted the first study in 1997,
to check on the, socioeconomic aspect of

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the shark exploitation in the country.

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At that time, he was only interested in
sharks, not on rays, because, uh, rays for

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them is not a valuable thing, so sharks
are more valuable than, than the shark.

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Mm-hmm.

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So that's how the first study has

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been conducted in the country.

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And then in 2009, I came in.

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2009, I was, uh- 300 level students.

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So I started what, a, a year ago in
2008, my internship on sharks and rays.

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So I was able to, to started a
new work, a new project on that.

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00:11:22,708 --> 00:11:27,728
In 2009, my supervisor told me about
him because they were good friends.

229
00:11:28,168 --> 00:11:29,298
So I went to him.

230
00:11:29,488 --> 00:11:33,868
He introduced me to the work he did, and
he told me, "I did this work just for two

231
00:11:33,868 --> 00:11:40,128
years because it requires much time. It
requires a lot of, your person. You have

232
00:11:40,128 --> 00:11:44,788
to be on the fi- uh, in the field every
day if you want to catch what they are

233
00:11:44,858 --> 00:11:48,374
bringing I say, "Okay, I'm still young.

234
00:11:48,464 --> 00:11:50,334
I don't have much to think about it.

235
00:11:50,334 --> 00:11:53,034
I don't have wife at that time,
I don't have kids, so I can be in

236
00:11:56,444 --> 00:11:57,344
the field." Yeah.

237
00:11:57,344 --> 00:12:00,592
I can be in the field from 6:00
AM to 7:00 PM, or even sometime to

238
00:12:00,612 --> 00:12:05,612
midnight, because sometimes you have
fishes coming back around 11:00 PM.

239
00:12:05,622 --> 00:12:06,632
Mm-hmm.

240
00:12:06,632 --> 00:12:10,352
And you get a call and say, "Oh, you know,
your guys are in, so you ca- you have to

241
00:12:10,362 --> 00:12:15,542
be in." So quickly you take your bike or
you look for a cab, you reach the harbor,

242
00:12:15,552 --> 00:12:17,832
and you see what they have brought.

243
00:12:17,942 --> 00:12:20,132
You discuss with them
where they have fished.

244
00:12:20,362 --> 00:12:24,842
And so Prosper has been the first person.

245
00:12:24,842 --> 00:12:28,622
After, after him I came in,
and now, yeah, I'm happy.

246
00:12:28,622 --> 00:12:33,402
As, as you said, they've, I've trained
currently three guys from Benin and other

247
00:12:33,822 --> 00:12:36,582
guys from University of Lille in France.

248
00:12:37,052 --> 00:12:41,802
they just finished the bachelor, um,
degree with me, um, few weeks ago.

249
00:12:41,872 --> 00:12:42,862
They have gone back home.

250
00:12:43,732 --> 00:12:47,762
So that's how sharks and
ray study started in Benin.

251
00:12:47,762 --> 00:12:52,222
But quickly, uh, there was
a book published by, Blatch.

252
00:12:52,372 --> 00:12:56,112
They were working for the
IFREMER, this French institution.

253
00:12:56,402 --> 00:12:56,562
Yeah.

254
00:12:56,642 --> 00:12:57,922
Mm-hmm.

255
00:12:57,972 --> 00:13:02,382
they got some, individuals of
silky sharks, bull sharks from

256
00:13:02,382 --> 00:13:03,872
Benin in 1986, I think so.

257
00:13:04,022 --> 00:13:04,052
Yeah, 1986.

258
00:13:04,052 --> 00:13:04,352
And

259
00:13:07,212 --> 00:13:12,702
so I saw that they have been here,
sampling and checking on those, but

260
00:13:12,722 --> 00:13:15,527
they have never published, published
anything from the country saying,

261
00:13:15,527 --> 00:13:16,794
"This is directly linked to Benin." No.

262
00:13:16,794 --> 00:13:23,322
Uh, but it has been put into a big book.

263
00:13:23,322 --> 00:13:27,272
Uh, if you were not reading, you
cannot quickly discover that something

264
00:13:27,282 --> 00:13:30,798
has been done or things are coming
from Benin and have been- published.

265
00:13:31,058 --> 00:13:31,138
Yeah.

266
00:13:31,138 --> 00:13:31,748
Yeah.

267
00:13:31,748 --> 00:13:32,598
Oh, yeah.

268
00:13:32,868 --> 00:13:35,178
I guess one of the first things you
started doing was just trying to

269
00:13:35,638 --> 00:13:39,688
figure out the different species that
occur there, the sharks and rays,

270
00:13:39,688 --> 00:13:42,658
can you tell a little bit, what's
the diversity like there, as far as

271
00:13:42,658 --> 00:13:46,438
the number of shark, different shark
species you've recorded, and rays?

272
00:13:47,168 --> 00:13:47,638
Oh, yeah.

273
00:13:47,648 --> 00:13:53,578
So far, I think since 2009,
I started really this work.

274
00:13:54,258 --> 00:14:00,370
I discovered that, uh, we have
about, 37 sharks and ray 37.

275
00:14:00,890 --> 00:14:06,340
14, 14 sharks and yeah,
the remain are rays.

276
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:07,110
Okay.

277
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:07,140
So

278
00:14:07,420 --> 00:14:13,080
yeah, we have blue sharks, uh, we have
the, the silky shark, the bull shark.

279
00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:14,020
Mm-hmm.

280
00:14:14,020 --> 00:14:15,130
Uh, we have tiger shark.

281
00:14:15,130 --> 00:14:20,150
That's… From time to time we can see
the thresher shark, Alopias vulpinus.

282
00:14:20,330 --> 00:14:22,880
We can see them from time to times.

283
00:14:23,310 --> 00:14:27,860
Uh, we have, uh, the blacktip
shark, the Carcharhinus limbatus.

284
00:14:28,570 --> 00:14:33,480
And yeah, uh, recently I discovered
that we have Squatina squamata in the-

285
00:14:35,068 --> 00:14:35,318
You

286
00:14:35,318 --> 00:14:40,128
know, when you have a look at the
distribution map of Squatina squalina, you

287
00:14:40,128 --> 00:14:42,548
see it just stop somewhere around Senegal.

288
00:14:42,548 --> 00:14:44,498
It doesn't come down.

289
00:14:45,118 --> 00:14:50,828
But one of my student in 2024
discovered, and I was not, it might

290
00:14:50,828 --> 00:14:55,608
not be, that it may be oculata, because
oculata is the one which we know that

291
00:14:55,658 --> 00:14:57,348
is, uh- Mm-hmm … in the country.

292
00:14:57,488 --> 00:15:02,558
But myself, you know, this is a, I
don't think this is a coincidence,

293
00:15:02,598 --> 00:15:04,048
quite serious or something like that.

294
00:15:04,438 --> 00:15:09,273
Uh, just two days before I flew to,
for Sri Lanka, for Shark Institute

295
00:15:09,273 --> 00:15:15,148
International- Mm … on 28th of April,
yeah, I discovered that, yeah, we really

296
00:15:15,148 --> 00:15:17,258
had Squatina oculata in the country.

297
00:15:17,968 --> 00:15:18,468
Mm. I saw it.

298
00:15:18,788 --> 00:15:19,048
Yeah.

299
00:15:19,048 --> 00:15:23,198
I, I was like, "No, this is,
cannot be Squatina oculata." I

300
00:15:23,198 --> 00:15:25,408
went on, I took the pictures.

301
00:15:25,968 --> 00:15:30,448
I went, I, I came back to my office,
I sat, I checked all the book, and

302
00:15:30,448 --> 00:15:36,378
I, I said, "Oh no, this is really
real, uh, a real identification ID."

303
00:15:36,858 --> 00:15:40,928
that is the kind of, uh, the species
that we have in the country, and I'm

304
00:15:40,978 --> 00:15:43,888
thinking that we may have much more that

305
00:15:46,728 --> 00:15:48,258
we have not yet, you know, disco-
we have not yet discovered.

306
00:15:48,928 --> 00:15:52,978
though we have deep sea sharks
like the, the, how they call it?

307
00:15:53,238 --> 00:15:54,628
The Squalus blanvillei.

308
00:15:54,668 --> 00:15:54,818
The squalus.

309
00:15:54,818 --> 00:15:55,608
Mm-hmm.

310
00:15:55,738 --> 00:15:56,208
Yeah.

311
00:15:56,328 --> 00:15:56,638
Yeah.

312
00:15:56,648 --> 00:16:01,778
We have also, um, the, the cat
sharks, uh, West African cat sharks,

313
00:16:01,778 --> 00:16:04,248
Sel- uh, Scyliorhinus celebrens.

314
00:16:04,248 --> 00:16:04,928
Mm-hmm.

315
00:16:04,928 --> 00:16:06,628
So I think, I think we may have

316
00:16:07,818 --> 00:16:08,553
other species- Additional species.

317
00:16:08,553 --> 00:16:08,571
Yeah.

318
00:16:08,571 --> 00:16:08,838
Mm-hmm.

319
00:16:08,838 --> 00:16:09,328
Yeah.

320
00:16:09,408 --> 00:16:09,718
Yeah.

321
00:16:09,768 --> 00:16:11,518
K- And that we have not discovered

322
00:16:11,518 --> 00:16:11,928
yet.

323
00:16:11,928 --> 00:16:15,672
so w- so when you started out in this
whole thing, s- I gotta ask you, when you

324
00:16:15,672 --> 00:16:19,662
first, like, told your parents and other
people you were gonna do sharks, did they

325
00:16:19,662 --> 00:16:23,562
kinda have a moment where they thought you
were, like, outta your mind or something?

326
00:16:23,562 --> 00:16:26,252
Or how did… 'Cause it's when you
s- when you t- or tell like, "I'm

327
00:16:26,252 --> 00:16:30,242
gonna go study sharks," what, uh- Oh.

328
00:16:30,242 --> 00:16:30,972
H- what, what's your

329
00:16:31,412 --> 00:16:32,832
f- Sorry for laughing.

330
00:16:33,742 --> 00:16:38,522
You know, even during my PhD research,
I, I remember was I was giving my

331
00:16:38,542 --> 00:16:44,622
second, um, uh, seminar, uh, you know,
to share my research, development.

332
00:16:45,432 --> 00:16:50,252
One of the staff, uh, the faculty sta-
staff asked me, "Why can't you go for

333
00:16:50,292 --> 00:16:52,542
tuna instead of going for sharks and ray?"

334
00:16:52,542 --> 00:16:52,552
Because-

335
00:16:52,552 --> 00:16:53,012
Mm

336
00:16:53,092 --> 00:16:55,642
…
at the time I was struggling
getting, how they call it?

337
00:16:55,842 --> 00:16:56,282
A CITES permit.

338
00:16:57,864 --> 00:17:00,594
'Cause I was working all over
the West Africa down-- from

339
00:17:00,624 --> 00:17:02,494
Senegal down to, to Nigeria.

340
00:17:02,524 --> 00:17:06,524
So I needed to get, uh, the CITES
permit from each of these countries.

341
00:17:07,134 --> 00:17:11,694
So it was really tough to get them,
even though I have been working

342
00:17:11,694 --> 00:17:15,764
with many of the guys living in
those country, but it was not easy.

343
00:17:15,764 --> 00:17:20,626
So the staff guy asked me, man, can't
you move to tuna instead of looking for

344
00:17:20,626 --> 00:17:23,114
sharks and ray?" So that's your question.

345
00:17:23,494 --> 00:17:28,424
My parent was really astonished at me
when I told them, "You know, I'm going to

346
00:17:28,424 --> 00:17:33,404
study sharks." My father was like, "Yeah,
I knew because I have been introduced

347
00:17:33,404 --> 00:17:35,904
you to those things from, Cousteau stuff.

348
00:17:36,064 --> 00:17:41,424
So I knew you will be heading,
you will be heading to those kind

349
00:17:41,424 --> 00:17:45,164
of no…" And he used this word,
nonsense things. But I said, "No,

350
00:17:45,224 --> 00:17:47,254
Dad, listen, this is not nonsense.

351
00:17:47,384 --> 00:17:51,864
It's a way to check on the
health status of our ocean." Mmm.

352
00:17:51,964 --> 00:17:52,554
Yeah.

353
00:17:52,554 --> 00:17:55,974
He said, "Oh, yeah." Because when I
was, you know, getting admission for

354
00:17:55,974 --> 00:18:01,860
university, I was applying for, medical
studies But I couldn't get admission for

355
00:18:01,860 --> 00:18:07,110
the medical studies, so I finally decid-
decided to move to environmental sciences

356
00:18:07,580 --> 00:18:11,700
and where I say, "Okay, if I cannot be
a doctor and, helping people to get…

357
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,270
healing people, yeah, I
can still heal the world.

358
00:18:14,270 --> 00:18:19,620
I can heal the environment in s- uh,
in my way." So that's how. And, until

359
00:18:20,030 --> 00:18:25,830
today, my father, I remember when I, I
got my PhD, he was, he was really proud

360
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:27,810
of me. He said, "Oh, man, you did it.

361
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:29,520
You have been, consistent.

362
00:18:29,690 --> 00:18:34,230
You didn't change." And s- some
of my professors keep saying that,

363
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,050
"Yeah, you started with sharks.

364
00:18:36,110 --> 00:18:38,960
You are still working on sharks and rays.

365
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:43,600
And now that's mean that you are kind of
person who can be, you know, consider…

366
00:18:43,820 --> 00:18:48,070
No matter what you are facing as
challenges." And I can tell you, there

367
00:18:48,130 --> 00:18:50,580
are so lot of challenges in this field.

368
00:18:51,090 --> 00:18:52,940
I started without any mentor.

369
00:18:53,790 --> 00:18:58,360
Like, no, my mentor or my supervisor
who has been there is not a

370
00:18:58,360 --> 00:18:59,380
specialist of sharks and rays.

371
00:18:59,380 --> 00:19:02,710
he's much more into marine mammals.

372
00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:05,330
Uh, but not all the time.

373
00:19:05,540 --> 00:19:10,160
From time to time, he goes for marine
mammal, but he was there just telling

374
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,880
me, "Yo, there was this book from
FAO, go read it. There was this book

375
00:19:13,940 --> 00:19:19,020
from this guy from South Africa or
from…" And that South Africa, may

376
00:19:19,030 --> 00:19:24,560
his soul rest in peace, Compagno, his
was the first one I read, uh- Compagno?

377
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:25,610
Yeah, Compagno.

378
00:19:25,610 --> 00:19:27,320
It was the first book I read.

379
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:32,080
So I said, "Oh, really?" So I
tried to reach out to him in 2010.

380
00:19:32,810 --> 00:19:34,830
At that time, my English was so bad.

381
00:19:35,260 --> 00:19:35,520
Hmm.

382
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,440
But, think he didn't get my
email or maybe he got me into

383
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,560
the, the undesirable, uh, mail.

384
00:19:41,740 --> 00:19:47,716
So I was there hoping some one
day someone will be on my mentor.

385
00:19:47,716 --> 00:19:51,010
But until today, truly talking,
working with sharks and ray,

386
00:19:51,010 --> 00:19:52,160
I do not have any mentor.

387
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:58,020
I have been, you know, I've built
myself, and I'm trying also to, you

388
00:19:58,020 --> 00:20:02,770
know, to give back to young guys who are
interested working in sharks and rays.

389
00:20:02,770 --> 00:20:07,700
So when I'm asked, "Why did you go?"
I say, "I go because my passion.

390
00:20:07,750 --> 00:20:11,100
This is what I wanted to do and-" Yeah.

391
00:20:11,340 --> 00:20:14,090
Today's I'm, I'm really happy to be in UW

392
00:20:14,380 --> 00:20:14,930
Yeah, I can imagine.

393
00:20:14,940 --> 00:20:15,320
Yeah.

394
00:20:15,370 --> 00:20:15,940
yeah, yeah.

395
00:20:16,150 --> 00:20:19,290
Kopano was my advisor for my
PhD. I knew him very well.

396
00:20:19,350 --> 00:20:23,880
But probably about the time you contacted
him, 2010, he was pretty much in

397
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,600
retirement, going into retirement- Yeah

398
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,670
at that time, so I'm not surprised
if you didn't hear back from him.

399
00:20:28,670 --> 00:20:33,693
He- Yeah … pretty much after about that
time, he wasn't real responsive unless

400
00:20:33,693 --> 00:20:35,353
it's somebody he knew or something.

401
00:20:35,843 --> 00:20:38,403
But anyway, so you're off and running now.

402
00:20:38,403 --> 00:20:41,763
You're doing this, your work, looking
at the sharks and rays there, and

403
00:20:42,363 --> 00:20:44,773
obviously your parents are very
proud you got a PhD and everything.

404
00:20:45,143 --> 00:20:46,203
But I wanna ask you a question.

405
00:20:47,043 --> 00:20:51,073
you do political science
for your bachelor's degree.

406
00:20:51,583 --> 00:20:52,103
Yeah.

407
00:20:52,213 --> 00:20:52,433
Yeah.

408
00:20:52,433 --> 00:20:54,383
A- Aside

409
00:20:55,383 --> 00:20:55,433
of environmental sciences.

410
00:20:55,433 --> 00:20:59,463
Yeah, political science, and then you
go, then you do a PhD in sharks and rays.

411
00:20:59,463 --> 00:20:59,693
Yeah.

412
00:20:59,693 --> 00:21:00,093
Yeah.

413
00:21:00,313 --> 00:21:01,453
how does that happen?

414
00:21:03,353 --> 00:21:06,803
No, you know, I was at the time,
in my country, we are allowed to go

415
00:21:06,803 --> 00:21:12,633
for two courses at the same time,
And I was studying, law because

416
00:21:12,663 --> 00:21:16,953
I wanted to go in governmental
law, justice or all those things.

417
00:21:17,603 --> 00:21:17,813
Mm.

418
00:21:18,063 --> 00:21:21,323
At the same time, I was also studying
science, environmental sciences,

419
00:21:21,723 --> 00:21:23,443
so in two different universities.

420
00:21:23,563 --> 00:21:25,593
So I was paying two different tuition.

421
00:21:26,003 --> 00:21:27,053
My fathers and my- Oh.

422
00:21:27,083 --> 00:21:30,203
My father and my mother are really…
I, I'm really proud of them because

423
00:21:31,413 --> 00:21:33,003
they put themselves on that condition,
paying two tuitions every years.

424
00:21:33,003 --> 00:21:33,533
And yeah, at the end, I got the,
the, the, the BSC in law, and

425
00:21:33,533 --> 00:21:35,503
finally I had, I got the, the BSC in

426
00:21:46,333 --> 00:21:47,513
science, environmental science.

427
00:21:47,853 --> 00:21:53,533
But my point was, at the time, put
together my experience or my knowledge

428
00:21:53,583 --> 00:21:58,143
from science, environmental science, with
the law, aside of the law so that- Yeah.

429
00:21:58,423 --> 00:21:58,813
Okay

430
00:21:58,823 --> 00:22:03,003
…
you know, whenever someone raised
an issue related to environment,

431
00:22:03,933 --> 00:22:08,423
and using the law side, I can stand
and say, "You know, really in the

432
00:22:08,423 --> 00:22:10,173
environment, it doesn't work like that."

433
00:22:10,573 --> 00:22:11,023
Mm-hmm.

434
00:22:11,023 --> 00:22:15,073
"So if you want to go for regulation,
you need to understand what is

435
00:22:15,353 --> 00:22:19,133
going on there." Yeah, I still
today, I'm still using those side

436
00:22:19,293 --> 00:22:23,833
even though I have not, worked much
into, political and other sides.

437
00:22:24,013 --> 00:22:24,033
Yeah.

438
00:22:24,133 --> 00:22:24,403
okay.

439
00:22:24,403 --> 00:22:28,333
So from your parents' background that
when you did the, the law… You were

440
00:22:28,333 --> 00:22:33,453
kinda like doing stuff for the, thinking
a law degree, and then you went for f- so

441
00:22:33,453 --> 00:22:37,323
actually with your, your bachelor's degree
in political science with, and then with

442
00:22:37,323 --> 00:22:41,513
your sharks, if you actually probably have
better understanding, like policy stuff.

443
00:22:41,803 --> 00:22:42,013
Exactly.

444
00:22:42,173 --> 00:22:42,273
Yeah.

445
00:22:43,113 --> 00:22:43,203
Exactly.

446
00:22:43,473 --> 00:22:47,133
Are there very many people in
Benin , that do, uh, environmental

447
00:22:47,703 --> 00:22:49,863
policy or shark policy?

448
00:22:50,263 --> 00:22:50,483
no.

449
00:22:50,533 --> 00:22:51,563
Unfortunately, no.

450
00:22:51,573 --> 00:22:51,593
Yeah.

451
00:22:51,803 --> 00:22:55,344
there are o- there are only two guys who
studies, environments as, environmental

452
00:22:55,344 --> 00:22:57,331
law, if I can put it in that way.

453
00:22:57,331 --> 00:22:57,802
Mm-hmm.

454
00:22:57,802 --> 00:22:58,362
There are only two.

455
00:22:58,552 --> 00:23:03,372
And apart from those guys, nobody
has dared to go into, into that

456
00:23:03,372 --> 00:23:07,152
field, because most of the time
for people, it doesn't pay much,

457
00:23:07,232 --> 00:23:07,362
Yeah.

458
00:23:07,362 --> 00:23:07,682
That's-

459
00:23:07,682 --> 00:23:08,442
It doesn't pay much.

460
00:23:08,802 --> 00:23:10,042
Yeah, it doesn't pay much.

461
00:23:10,072 --> 00:23:10,272
Yeah.

462
00:23:10,272 --> 00:23:14,472
You know, you talk about something
that is not tangible- Yeah … and

463
00:23:14,472 --> 00:23:18,422
for them it's like, "Oh, you
are wasting your time." Yeah.

464
00:23:18,422 --> 00:23:21,122
Like, for fi- for fisher,
fisherman, they always say,

465
00:23:21,942 --> 00:23:24,012
"Sea will never dry," for them.

466
00:23:24,152 --> 00:23:31,122
So you cannot defend, concretely someone
who say that sea will never dry, because

467
00:23:31,122 --> 00:23:32,932
for them, fish will always be there.

468
00:23:33,602 --> 00:23:34,162
Yeah, yeah.

469
00:23:34,172 --> 00:23:34,792
Fish will always be there.

470
00:23:34,792 --> 00:23:34,992
Yeah.

471
00:23:35,292 --> 00:23:38,952
I saw you ha- you have a Save Our Seas
grant, and so- Yeah … you're working

472
00:23:38,952 --> 00:23:43,122
on trying to do red list assessments
on all the sharks and rays in Benin?

473
00:23:43,122 --> 00:23:43,492
Yeah,

474
00:23:43,492 --> 00:23:43,782
yeah.

475
00:23:43,812 --> 00:23:44,042
Yeah.

476
00:23:44,312 --> 00:23:50,392
And so by doing that, okay, if you do
these assessments, are you then looking

477
00:23:50,392 --> 00:23:55,336
to, um, eventually, like, help develop
a plan of action for sharks and rays?

478
00:23:55,656 --> 00:23:57,006
Is that the goal?

479
00:23:57,496 --> 00:23:57,796
Yeah.

480
00:23:57,856 --> 00:23:59,006
that's one of the main goal.

481
00:23:59,426 --> 00:24:00,406
That's one of the main goal.

482
00:24:00,406 --> 00:24:01,886
Uh, can you talk a little more about that?

483
00:24:01,896 --> 00:24:02,406
That's, that's-

484
00:24:03,266 --> 00:24:03,446
yeah.

485
00:24:03,446 --> 00:24:03,716
Yeah.

486
00:24:03,836 --> 00:24:06,596
let me just say something
about this Save Our Seas grant.

487
00:24:06,726 --> 00:24:11,756
You know- Yep in July 2021, I was heading
to Senegal for, for my field work.

488
00:24:11,766 --> 00:24:12,436
Mm-hmm.

489
00:24:12,436 --> 00:24:16,646
And at the time, I needed to, uh,
have something to listen to during

490
00:24:16,646 --> 00:24:21,226
the flight, and I got to know that,
uh, Sara Folla was on this podcast.

491
00:24:22,326 --> 00:24:26,356
So that was the podcast I listened
to when I was having my, uh, I

492
00:24:26,356 --> 00:24:31,036
was doing the flight, and I got
to know some, you know, tips about

493
00:24:34,436 --> 00:24:38,502
how to get grant accepted, and I
have applied what she said I, I was

494
00:24:38,502 --> 00:24:43,542
able to get the grant because a few
years ago in 2008, uh, 18, I tried

495
00:24:43,542 --> 00:24:45,282
for the Keystone and I didn't get.

496
00:24:45,282 --> 00:24:48,442
So I've gone there, and I got the grant.

497
00:24:48,442 --> 00:24:51,982
So coming back to your question,
yeah, the point of the grant was

498
00:24:51,992 --> 00:24:54,752
to, you know, set a action plan for

499
00:24:56,662 --> 00:24:56,837
sharks and rays in the country.

500
00:24:56,837 --> 00:24:56,902
Mm-hmm.

501
00:24:56,902 --> 00:25:02,512
'Cause, we are, we, we are a country where
you have migrant fisher from Nigeria,

502
00:25:02,552 --> 00:25:04,622
from Ghana coming in the country to fish.

503
00:25:05,452 --> 00:25:05,642
Mm.

504
00:25:05,672 --> 00:25:10,612
And there's, there's a study that Issa
didn't yet publish, uh, I don't know why.

505
00:25:10,782 --> 00:25:11,152
Why?

506
00:25:11,292 --> 00:25:16,572
we discussed few months ago about the
migrants in the region, and he told

507
00:25:16,592 --> 00:25:22,712
me that, his guide, the fisherman
from Ghana said that, okay, the

508
00:25:22,742 --> 00:25:27,722
best place where you can have very
mature big ones, how they call it?

509
00:25:27,852 --> 00:25:29,392
blackchin guitarfish.

510
00:25:29,472 --> 00:25:30,342
Oh, blackchin guitarfish.

511
00:25:30,862 --> 00:25:31,072
Yep.

512
00:25:31,072 --> 00:25:31,392
Yeah.

513
00:25:31,392 --> 00:25:31,452
Yeah.

514
00:25:31,452 --> 00:25:31,652
Yep.

515
00:25:31,702 --> 00:25:35,062
And big, other big, shark
species is the Benin water.

516
00:25:35,842 --> 00:25:39,772
So you ca- you can imagine that
people from other countries coming

517
00:25:39,772 --> 00:25:44,282
to my country fishing the, the big
species that we have in the country.

518
00:25:44,282 --> 00:25:49,042
So there is a need to know exactly
what we have and to put in place, uh,

519
00:25:49,622 --> 00:25:51,982
a plan, action plan that can help- to,
to preserve, to conserve these species.

520
00:25:52,152 --> 00:25:55,002
So that came the, the, the project.

521
00:25:55,182 --> 00:25:59,312
And, I'm still… No, this project
is still ongoing because, uh, I

522
00:25:59,812 --> 00:26:01,882
have not yet, published the book.

523
00:26:02,172 --> 00:26:07,082
…
I just got few days ago from, Jade
Schultz from Save Our Seas Foundation,

524
00:26:07,452 --> 00:26:11,872
communication team that, uh, the book
is about to be finished, so I needed

525
00:26:11,902 --> 00:26:14,672
to send them few words about it.

526
00:26:14,922 --> 00:26:16,592
So this is a book, yeah.

527
00:26:16,962 --> 00:26:17,612
which book's this?

528
00:26:18,044 --> 00:26:20,334
you said there, there's a
book that's just about done?

529
00:26:20,704 --> 00:26:21,704
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

530
00:26:21,734 --> 00:26:25,244
The book is about the species
of, of sharks and ray that

531
00:26:25,304 --> 00:26:26,443
we have in the country.

532
00:26:26,443 --> 00:26:27,260
Oh, okay.

533
00:26:27,620 --> 00:26:27,660
Yeah.

534
00:26:27,770 --> 00:26:28,110
Okay.

535
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:34,110
It will serve as a basis for, uh,
policy makers and other, you know,

536
00:26:34,110 --> 00:26:38,415
uh, um, law enforcement guys to know
exactly what we have in the country.

537
00:26:38,415 --> 00:26:39,110
Mm-hmm.

538
00:26:39,110 --> 00:26:44,980
What is currently on CITES list,
what is, uh, I mean, Red List that

539
00:26:45,050 --> 00:26:47,100
we have, uh, for the country exactly.

540
00:26:47,540 --> 00:26:52,240
What we have data about it, what are data
deficient, and what are least concerning-

541
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:52,680
Oh, wow

542
00:26:53,290 --> 00:26:53,593
…
to you.

543
00:26:53,593 --> 00:26:53,875
Yeah.

544
00:26:53,875 --> 00:26:55,854
that's the kind of work I'm doing.

545
00:26:55,854 --> 00:27:01,497
'Cause I have data from, a serious
data set from 2015 till now for

546
00:27:01,647 --> 00:27:05,157
almost, the species that I have in
the book, because in the book we

547
00:27:05,157 --> 00:27:07,213
may have 35 species in the book.

548
00:27:07,213 --> 00:27:07,804
Mm-hmm.

549
00:27:07,804 --> 00:27:07,824
So,

550
00:27:07,934 --> 00:27:10,084
I have consistent data
set for each of them.

551
00:27:10,084 --> 00:27:13,784
So I think it's time we assess,
we evaluate what really the

552
00:27:14,064 --> 00:27:15,448
species in the country are

553
00:27:15,448 --> 00:27:16,081
facing.

554
00:27:16,081 --> 00:27:16,611
Okay.

555
00:27:16,691 --> 00:27:18,371
Oh, that's, that's…
we'll look forward to that.

556
00:27:18,371 --> 00:27:19,161
Definitely let us know.

557
00:27:19,161 --> 00:27:21,891
We'll, we'll, we'll post the
information, um, Sure … when your

558
00:27:21,901 --> 00:27:24,081
podcast comes out, is out by then.

559
00:27:24,421 --> 00:27:27,361
So Save Our Seas been really helpful
for you for helping you get the,

560
00:27:27,371 --> 00:27:29,301
the Red List assessment stuff done.

561
00:27:29,781 --> 00:27:30,041
Yeah.

562
00:27:30,431 --> 00:27:30,601
Yeah.

563
00:27:30,641 --> 00:27:35,281
have you been working with anybody else,
uh, outside, uh, with IUCN or anyone, or?

564
00:27:36,291 --> 00:27:41,621
truly talking, I have not been
working with anybody from IUCN guys.

565
00:27:41,821 --> 00:27:41,831
Oh.

566
00:27:41,851 --> 00:27:42,171
Yeah.

567
00:27:42,171 --> 00:27:42,231
Yeah.

568
00:27:42,231 --> 00:27:44,941
But I got to know Rima a
few years, I think in 2023.

569
00:27:45,981 --> 00:27:46,371
Yeah, Rima

570
00:27:46,521 --> 00:27:47,121
Oh, yeah, Rima.

571
00:27:47,161 --> 00:27:47,421
Yep.

572
00:27:47,691 --> 00:27:48,361
Yeah, Rima.

573
00:27:48,471 --> 00:27:51,836
and she's, um, aware of this
book coming out very soon.

574
00:27:51,836 --> 00:27:52,201
Mm-hmm.

575
00:27:52,201 --> 00:27:53,491
So, yeah.

576
00:27:53,611 --> 00:27:56,091
But the first person, I have
been not really worked with him.

577
00:27:56,871 --> 00:27:58,791
There's this guy from
France, Ben Skerritt.

578
00:27:59,412 --> 00:28:00,372
Oh, Bernard Ceret?

579
00:28:00,702 --> 00:28:01,112
Yeah.

580
00:28:01,162 --> 00:28:02,602
I Was thinking of a shark species.

581
00:28:02,602 --> 00:28:04,932
I'm going, "That didn't sound like
a shark species to me." But- I know.

582
00:28:04,932 --> 00:28:05,872
But I, oh, yeah.

583
00:28:05,872 --> 00:28:06,692
Oh, yeah, I know Bernard.

584
00:28:06,692 --> 00:28:06,922
Yeah.

585
00:28:06,972 --> 00:28:07,192
Yep.

586
00:28:07,262 --> 00:28:07,932
Yeah, okay.

587
00:28:07,942 --> 00:28:08,212
Yeah.

588
00:28:08,592 --> 00:28:09,122
Oh, nice.

589
00:28:09,122 --> 00:28:13,622
Bernard in two, in 2015 confirmed
my first, identification.

590
00:28:13,922 --> 00:28:14,192
Oh, yeah.

591
00:28:14,192 --> 00:28:14,602
Okay.

592
00:28:14,652 --> 00:28:19,692
So going on, yeah, based on that,
and I'm applying, what we have in the

593
00:28:19,782 --> 00:28:26,937
groups, sometime I do incorporate, you
know, regional, uh, how do you call it?

594
00:28:26,937 --> 00:28:31,832
Specificity, you know, uh, like species
like, let me tell you about the Raja

595
00:28:31,832 --> 00:28:34,102
Mirabilis history in this, in this area.

596
00:28:34,112 --> 00:28:37,492
Uh, you know, in Cote d'Ivoire,
in Togo, in Ghana, in Benin,

597
00:28:37,812 --> 00:28:39,132
we have Raja Mirabilis.

598
00:28:39,132 --> 00:28:40,142
Mm-hmm.

599
00:28:40,682 --> 00:28:44,522
But the feature for each of,
uh, for the, this species in

600
00:28:44,642 --> 00:28:45,772
each country are different.

601
00:28:46,442 --> 00:28:46,842
Yeah.

602
00:28:47,452 --> 00:28:47,752
Yeah.

603
00:28:47,752 --> 00:28:52,462
So we got to know through this, the West
African Marine, uh, Marine Fish Barcoding

604
00:28:52,462 --> 00:28:57,182
Network that we have that difference
within the s- the, the, the, the region.

605
00:28:57,182 --> 00:29:02,102
So I do incorporate that kind
of, uh, that aspect into my

606
00:29:02,102 --> 00:29:03,222
way to identify the species.

607
00:29:03,222 --> 00:29:10,632
But when I do have any issue, I just
send online on ResearchGate, if anyone

608
00:29:10,662 --> 00:29:14,442
has seen something like this before,
or what do they think about it?

609
00:29:14,442 --> 00:29:15,122
That's how I-

610
00:29:15,632 --> 00:29:16,252
…
update it.

611
00:29:16,252 --> 00:29:16,392
Yeah.

612
00:29:16,992 --> 00:29:17,592
Oh, okay.

613
00:29:17,722 --> 00:29:18,242
Okay.

614
00:29:18,862 --> 00:29:20,922
Yeah, so no, that's, that's good.

615
00:29:21,012 --> 00:29:24,092
You're advising and mentoring
some, some students as well, right?

616
00:29:24,542 --> 00:29:24,942
Yeah.

617
00:29:25,626 --> 00:29:26,846
Could you tell us a little bit about that?

618
00:29:26,906 --> 00:29:31,336
How's that going with the, uh, you have
final lot of enthusiastic young people?

619
00:29:32,956 --> 00:29:33,516
Yeah.

620
00:29:33,656 --> 00:29:37,456
most of them came, came to me
through my LinkedIn profile.

621
00:29:37,606 --> 00:29:40,796
Uh, they went, by Googling, checking,

622
00:29:40,796 --> 00:29:41,086
uh,

623
00:29:41,156 --> 00:29:44,416
who is working on CITES array in Benin.

624
00:29:44,416 --> 00:29:45,856
So they got to know that I'm there.

625
00:29:46,326 --> 00:29:46,576
Mm-hmm.

626
00:29:46,576 --> 00:29:47,786
And how I… Yeah.

627
00:29:47,956 --> 00:29:51,920
I, I, I, I ca- but I can remember my first
student was recruited through a call I

628
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:52,686
made, that I'm recruiting a student for a

629
00:29:56,716 --> 00:29:57,186
study.

630
00:29:57,996 --> 00:30:03,196
If the student is enthusiastic about
it, he can call me and we discuss.

631
00:30:03,196 --> 00:30:10,788
And, I got I think, uh, 45 feedback
People, even people from med- medical

632
00:30:11,158 --> 00:30:15,238
sciences sent me a message that, "Yeah,
I want to study with you." I was like,

633
00:30:15,418 --> 00:30:17,478
"One, uh, listen, this is chat survey.

634
00:30:17,478 --> 00:30:22,158
It's not a human aspect, human dimension."
but finally, I selected two of them.

635
00:30:22,818 --> 00:30:27,698
And yeah, I'm have been working
with them since three years now-

636
00:30:28,028 --> 00:30:28,358
Wow

637
00:30:28,368 --> 00:30:34,118
…
giving them ad-a-advices, uh, pushing
them to go ahead if they still want

638
00:30:34,128 --> 00:30:35,798
to stay in the chat survey stuff.

639
00:30:36,028 --> 00:30:41,668
Because this is not field where you
can, you know, earn much money and

640
00:30:41,668 --> 00:30:43,458
you get rich quickly as you may think.

641
00:30:43,788 --> 00:30:43,868
Yeah.

642
00:30:44,218 --> 00:30:44,638
Yeah.

643
00:30:44,648 --> 00:30:44,678
But-

644
00:30:44,728 --> 00:30:47,898
and what was it about, about
those two that stood out?

645
00:30:47,898 --> 00:30:51,998
I mean, you went from 45 to two that stood
out that would… That you said, "Yeah, I

646
00:30:51,998 --> 00:30:53,878
wanna work, I wanna work with these two."

647
00:30:54,218 --> 00:30:54,718
Yeah.

648
00:30:54,778 --> 00:30:58,668
I, I… First of all, we went,
we went through an interview

649
00:30:58,728 --> 00:30:59,658
to know exactly what they want.

650
00:31:00,138 --> 00:31:03,728
Because, you know, in the call I
mentioned that there would be a pay,

651
00:31:03,728 --> 00:31:09,388
a, a monthly allowances for, for, for
joining me and working in the field.

652
00:31:10,068 --> 00:31:14,944
So I, I think most of them were
interested about the The field and, and

653
00:31:15,224 --> 00:31:17,954
they get, you know, working with me.

654
00:31:17,954 --> 00:31:22,304
So I told them, "No, this is a
serious work. It require much

655
00:31:22,304 --> 00:31:23,734
time in the field." Mm-hmm.

656
00:31:23,734 --> 00:31:24,394
It require time.

657
00:31:24,394 --> 00:31:27,284
You, you have to be at 100% of this work.

658
00:31:27,614 --> 00:31:30,334
It's not like you are working
here, you move to other thing.

659
00:31:30,424 --> 00:31:35,083
So finally, only these two, a
lady, uh, she was a entrepreneur

660
00:31:35,083 --> 00:31:40,454
at the time, a boy… A, a, another
guy, doing BS, studying BS- BSc.

661
00:31:40,454 --> 00:31:41,374
Mm-hmm.

662
00:31:41,374 --> 00:31:46,534
Who finally, you know, show really
excitement, interested in the work because

663
00:31:46,574 --> 00:31:48,384
they were looking for something like that.

664
00:31:48,554 --> 00:31:52,854
They wanted to go into marine science
instead of going to aquaculture.

665
00:31:53,404 --> 00:31:54,624
They were studying, aquaculture.

666
00:31:54,704 --> 00:31:57,974
In my country, there is
no, s- how will I put?

667
00:31:58,314 --> 00:32:02,264
Marine science, direct marine science-
Right … you know, cu- curriculum.

668
00:32:02,694 --> 00:32:06,994
So you go to aquaculture, you decide
to move directly to marine science.

669
00:32:06,994 --> 00:32:11,224
So they are, they were in that
condition, and they came to me.

670
00:32:11,714 --> 00:32:15,114
during the interview, I noticed
that they wanted really to

671
00:32:15,114 --> 00:32:17,634
change their story in the system.

672
00:32:17,734 --> 00:32:17,804
uh-

673
00:32:17,894 --> 00:32:18,294
Interesting.

674
00:32:18,294 --> 00:32:22,534
I, yeah, I get them and I'm really
happy to work with them because when

675
00:32:22,534 --> 00:32:27,694
I'm not around, I'm sure someone is
there getting data, doing the right job-

676
00:32:27,724 --> 00:32:28,094
Yeah.

677
00:32:28,104 --> 00:32:28,134
Mm-hmm

678
00:32:28,174 --> 00:32:29,624
…
and speaking the local language.

679
00:32:29,624 --> 00:32:33,954
Because this kind of work require
that we speak their language.

680
00:32:34,534 --> 00:32:35,024
Mm-hmm.

681
00:32:35,024 --> 00:32:37,544
It's not like you go there, you
speak, uh, French with them.

682
00:32:37,634 --> 00:32:37,954
No.

683
00:32:38,024 --> 00:32:39,484
Most of them, they don't speak French.

684
00:32:39,544 --> 00:32:43,144
Even though they are good, they
are fluent in French, they don't

685
00:32:43,144 --> 00:32:45,074
want to speak French with you.

686
00:32:45,094 --> 00:32:47,524
You may have people from
Ghana come in the country.

687
00:32:48,124 --> 00:32:51,634
So you cannot speak the
classical, English with them.

688
00:32:51,634 --> 00:32:53,654
you speak the Pidgin with them.

689
00:32:53,684 --> 00:32:59,904
So if you don't have those kind of,
um, asset, you don't have those kind of

690
00:32:59,904 --> 00:33:01,534
skills, you cannot really work with them.

691
00:33:01,694 --> 00:33:03,984
So this field is a field of skill.

692
00:33:04,454 --> 00:33:09,264
You have to speak well, you have to
know how to behave with them because-

693
00:33:10,204 --> 00:33:15,324
…
sometimes it can get into rivalry between
fishermen because you have been discussing

694
00:33:15,324 --> 00:33:19,114
with someone for a long while, the
other guys is, they're thinking that the

695
00:33:19,114 --> 00:33:21,064
other guy is getting incentive from you.

696
00:33:21,544 --> 00:33:24,444
He also want to get that part
of his part of incentive.

697
00:33:24,974 --> 00:33:26,644
So you have to look at balance.

698
00:33:26,814 --> 00:33:30,597
You have to discuss with the others, other
guys, and discuss with the other one.

699
00:33:30,597 --> 00:33:31,774
So that's how it goes.

700
00:33:31,774 --> 00:33:31,864
Yeah.

701
00:33:32,484 --> 00:33:32,914
Interesting.

702
00:33:33,154 --> 00:33:33,604
Yeah.

703
00:33:33,674 --> 00:33:34,394
That was interesting.

704
00:33:34,924 --> 00:33:35,124
Yeah.

705
00:33:35,124 --> 00:33:38,484
So, , kinda like where do you see
your research going forward from here?

706
00:33:39,272 --> 00:33:39,412
Yeah.

707
00:33:39,512 --> 00:33:42,122
you know, uh, Dave, you,
you inspired me something.

708
00:33:42,122 --> 00:33:46,842
You have been studying lost sharks,
but now I decided to move to

709
00:33:46,922 --> 00:33:49,372
less studied rays in the region.

710
00:33:49,512 --> 00:33:49,932
Rays.

711
00:33:49,942 --> 00:33:51,132
Uh-oh.

712
00:33:51,202 --> 00:33:51,402
You

713
00:33:51,402 --> 00:33:51,422
know?

714
00:33:51,422 --> 00:33:51,752
Great.

715
00:33:51,782 --> 00:33:52,832
Now we're talking Dave's

716
00:33:52,832 --> 00:33:52,902
language.

717
00:33:52,902 --> 00:33:53,992
Yeah, yeah.

718
00:33:53,992 --> 00:33:55,022
Now you're coming over.

719
00:33:56,662 --> 00:33:57,712
Now you're going.

720
00:33:58,202 --> 00:33:58,282
Yeah.

721
00:33:58,982 --> 00:34:02,592
Yeah, really, you inspired me
because, I started with, um…

722
00:34:03,212 --> 00:34:08,452
My master studies was about, the
demography and the exploitation parameters

723
00:34:08,472 --> 00:34:13,012
of two species of sharks in the, in Benin,
the blue shark and the silky sharks.

724
00:34:13,642 --> 00:34:14,672
Mm-hmm.

725
00:34:14,672 --> 00:34:18,262
But over the time, I've noticed
that, the sharks specialist unit,

726
00:34:18,382 --> 00:34:21,772
you know, the, those fishermen that
are really interested in sharks, are

727
00:34:21,802 --> 00:34:26,302
no longer working because there are
so many regulation in the country.

728
00:34:26,402 --> 00:34:30,212
Even though this has, you know,
those regulation are not written

729
00:34:30,212 --> 00:34:32,542
on the paper, but they're here.

730
00:34:32,652 --> 00:34:36,042
"Okay, you, you are not allowed to fish
sharks. You are not allowed to get, uh,

731
00:34:36,042 --> 00:34:39,492
to brought, uh, to bring the fish on
shore because you will be punished, you

732
00:34:39,722 --> 00:34:43,662
will be in jail." A- a- even today I
was told something like that, that- Mm

733
00:34:43,672 --> 00:34:47,612
there was a guy who, uh, who said,
"Oh, no long- you should no longer

734
00:34:47,662 --> 00:34:52,852
fish sharks in the country." I agree
because these species are endangered,

735
00:34:53,092 --> 00:34:57,982
but if they don't do that, we do not,
we scientists, we do not have the

736
00:34:57,982 --> 00:35:03,460
equipment to go at sea every time to know
exactly what will happen there So since

737
00:35:03,470 --> 00:35:09,400
those species are becoming rare in the
country, I decided to move to the, uh,

738
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:14,370
to the, to the less studied rays because
these species are there in three days.

739
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:15,540
Mm-hmm.

740
00:35:15,570 --> 00:35:20,460
Whenever you go to the field, you may
see, I, I think today's, today I, I, I saw

741
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,660
from seven species of rays in the field.

742
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:24,380
Wow.

743
00:35:24,810 --> 00:35:25,140
Yeah.

744
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,290
the Potytrigon, the, um,
the Hypanus, Hypanus rivers.

745
00:35:30,290 --> 00:35:33,520
This is, uh, the West African species.

746
00:35:33,570 --> 00:35:37,580
Uh, you have a species in America
they call Hypanus americana or

747
00:35:37,580 --> 00:35:38,760
americanus, something like that.

748
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:38,863
Yeah.

749
00:35:38,863 --> 00:35:39,270
It's a Dasyatis.

750
00:35:40,150 --> 00:35:43,170
Yeah, it's a Dasyatis
ray, the, the new one.

751
00:35:43,170 --> 00:35:43,560
Mm-hmm.

752
00:35:43,930 --> 00:35:44,140
yeah.

753
00:35:44,140 --> 00:35:45,920
Uh, I saw, how do they call it?

754
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,810
The maculatus, Rhinobatus maculatus.

755
00:35:50,050 --> 00:35:50,390
Oh, yeah.

756
00:35:50,390 --> 00:35:50,850
Mm-hmm.

757
00:35:50,850 --> 00:35:51,610
Uh, yeah, I saw it.

758
00:35:51,610 --> 00:35:56,030
I saw, a Rhinobatus iriei
in the, uh, in the field.

759
00:35:56,130 --> 00:35:57,730
I saw a Glaucostegus omphalops.

760
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,010
So there are so many species
you can see in the field.

761
00:36:01,100 --> 00:36:04,610
Just within 45 minutes,
I saw all those species.

762
00:36:05,060 --> 00:36:05,340
Wow.

763
00:36:05,340 --> 00:36:09,620
you can imagine even though
the, the landed specimen are

764
00:36:09,670 --> 00:36:11,620
not too-- is not a high number.

765
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:17,670
You may have five, six, seven, but there's
this diversity they are bringing in, and

766
00:36:17,930 --> 00:36:20,520
there's no much data about those species.

767
00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:21,320
Mm.

768
00:36:21,330 --> 00:36:25,330
Let's talk, you know, looking at
the Rhinobatus maculatus or Raja

769
00:36:25,330 --> 00:36:26,776
meralitis that I've seen today.

770
00:36:27,126 --> 00:36:29,216
those species are data deficient, I think.

771
00:36:29,566 --> 00:36:34,296
Uh, uh, I think, and now currently
I want to, shed the light on them.

772
00:36:34,936 --> 00:36:38,446
Mm. Because we say West Africa
is data lacking country, area.

773
00:36:38,546 --> 00:36:41,266
There's no much data about
fishery or those stuff.

774
00:36:41,536 --> 00:36:46,686
So I want really to put my work
towards those species and studying the

775
00:36:46,686 --> 00:36:51,736
less studied sha-- uh, rays instead
of, focusing on, on, on sharks.

776
00:36:51,736 --> 00:36:51,896
Because- Mm-hmm

777
00:36:52,056 --> 00:36:54,006
so many guys in the region are working on-

778
00:36:56,950 --> 00:37:01,800
I can't stress enough, the rays are just,
you know, there's like nothing known.

779
00:37:01,810 --> 00:37:05,490
I mean, sharks are not well known, but
rays are very almost nothing known.

780
00:37:05,670 --> 00:37:06,100
Yeah.

781
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,467
But I can tell you one thing when
you're talking to people, if you talk

782
00:37:09,607 --> 00:37:11,667
Now, maybe not when you're talking
to the fishermen and stuff, but

783
00:37:11,727 --> 00:37:15,987
outside people, like, if you say
flat sharks- Yeah … you'll get

784
00:37:15,987 --> 00:37:17,957
more attention than if you say rays.

785
00:37:18,227 --> 00:37:18,547
Yeah.

786
00:37:18,547 --> 00:37:19,177
Yeah.

787
00:37:19,177 --> 00:37:19,627
I- You have

788
00:37:19,627 --> 00:37:19,887
rats.

789
00:37:20,237 --> 00:37:20,617
Yeah.

790
00:37:20,637 --> 00:37:21,357
I, so I s- It's

791
00:37:21,357 --> 00:37:22,257
all in the marketing

792
00:37:22,457 --> 00:37:25,937
…
when I say sharks, I'm also referring
to the rays and the ghost sharks.

793
00:37:25,967 --> 00:37:28,487
or ghost sharks people get
excited about, but if I say

794
00:37:28,487 --> 00:37:30,487
rays, nobody pays any attention.

795
00:37:30,487 --> 00:37:34,307
But so think about using flat sharks
when you talk to some of the people

796
00:37:34,307 --> 00:37:36,167
about that, Yeah … on stuff.

797
00:37:36,217 --> 00:37:39,917
And so, um, well, I, I gotta ask you
here what … It's been really super

798
00:37:39,917 --> 00:37:43,017
fascinating, like, 'cause you're
in such a unique part of the world.

799
00:37:43,417 --> 00:37:47,437
I kinda wanna go visit you now sometime
and, um- … visit the markets.

800
00:37:47,547 --> 00:37:47,577
We'd

801
00:37:47,577 --> 00:37:47,627
love to

802
00:37:48,277 --> 00:37:48,633
have you.

803
00:37:48,633 --> 00:37:48,904
Yeah, man.

804
00:37:48,904 --> 00:37:49,507
We'd love to have you.

805
00:37:49,507 --> 00:37:51,727
And I could talk Andrew into
doing a trip with me sometime.

806
00:37:52,927 --> 00:37:53,417
of course, yeah.

807
00:37:53,657 --> 00:37:55,807
Andrew hears about a lot of my
trips, and I think he's like,

808
00:37:55,837 --> 00:37:56,807
"Nah, I think I'll…" Yeah,

809
00:37:57,307 --> 00:37:59,737
I'm like, "Uh, I'm not
as adventurous as Dave."

810
00:37:59,757 --> 00:38:03,187
I'll go some- Yeah … I'll find
someone else to go with there, but,

811
00:38:03,527 --> 00:38:07,257
but, uh, uh, what advice would you
have for like a young person who's

812
00:38:07,267 --> 00:38:10,600
maybe living in West Africa who
wants to go study sharks and rays?

813
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:11,710
What advice would you have for them?

814
00:38:12,390 --> 00:38:15,600
the main advice I may
give to them is, um, you

815
00:38:17,770 --> 00:38:17,895
know, guys, be consistent.

816
00:38:17,895 --> 00:38:23,430
Don't think that if you have-- you are
not unlucky to get a support, a grant, or

817
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,940
maybe a mentorship in this, in this field.

818
00:38:26,650 --> 00:38:30,550
Keep it up, keep working,
and one of those day you

819
00:38:32,750 --> 00:38:35,070
will shine, and you will-- I mean, people
will see you, know about your work.

820
00:38:35,650 --> 00:38:40,820
If I was not working, I wouldn't get
a civil society conservation grant.

821
00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:45,430
I wouldn't met you in Sri Lanka
few, few months ago and being here.

822
00:38:45,940 --> 00:38:48,600
So the main advice is being consistent.

823
00:38:49,250 --> 00:38:50,530
They should be consistent.

824
00:38:50,750 --> 00:38:52,180
They should focus on that.

825
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,290
Though it might not be easy, but starting,
it's, it makes sense to be consistent.

826
00:38:57,450 --> 00:39:00,670
And the second is don't
be, how will I put it?

827
00:39:00,750 --> 00:39:02,640
Don't stay in your comfort zone, you know?

828
00:39:03,420 --> 00:39:03,960
Stay in your comfort zone.

829
00:39:03,970 --> 00:39:04,200
Right.

830
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:04,440
Yeah.

831
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:04,920
Yeah,

832
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:05,140
yeah.

833
00:39:05,370 --> 00:39:07,150
You have to leave your comfort zone.

834
00:39:07,170 --> 00:39:11,750
You have to, give a taste to
something new that may give you,

835
00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:17,000
you know, it will make you, sometime
ill, but you need to go there.

836
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:17,460
Mmm.

837
00:39:17,460 --> 00:39:20,390
You need to taste and
to know what is there.

838
00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:26,490
I remember in 2010, the first time I
was embarking on a boat, uh, heading

839
00:39:26,563 --> 00:39:28,613
for a fish trip, a fishing trip.

840
00:39:29,103 --> 00:39:35,063
I remember my supervisor was, "Man,
be careful. I didn't ask you to go

841
00:39:35,063 --> 00:39:40,251
there, but if you decide to go." I
remember I vomited all during the trip.

842
00:39:40,401 --> 00:39:41,831
The trip was two days.

843
00:39:42,281 --> 00:39:44,491
I vomited all the time.

844
00:39:45,181 --> 00:39:50,301
And at the end, coming back, I told my
boss, "Yeah, this is my first try, and

845
00:39:50,351 --> 00:39:55,101
I think next time I will be going for
shark survey, fish- fishing, operation."

846
00:39:55,681 --> 00:40:00,061
So that is the kind of thing
you have young guys… I'm

847
00:40:00,071 --> 00:40:01,641
still young because I'm not old.

848
00:40:01,971 --> 00:40:02,361
Oh, yeah.

849
00:40:02,371 --> 00:40:02,441
So I

850
00:40:02,451 --> 00:40:02,711
have-

851
00:40:02,721 --> 00:40:03,291
You're a kid.

852
00:40:04,051 --> 00:40:04,161
Yeah.

853
00:40:04,161 --> 00:40:07,121
I'm still ready to, eager
to learn new things.

854
00:40:07,171 --> 00:40:12,451
But the guys, the new generation coming,
I keep telling them, "You guys, you

855
00:40:12,451 --> 00:40:15,231
have to leave your comfort zone." Give a

856
00:40:20,111 --> 00:40:20,440
try to another thing that
you have never done before.

857
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:20,551
Uh, and I, uh, there's
al- also this advice.

858
00:40:20,551 --> 00:40:24,271
Uh, for those of us who are coming
from, French-speaking countries,

859
00:40:24,391 --> 00:40:28,911
Spanish country, and the English
is not our first lang- language.

860
00:40:29,211 --> 00:40:31,961
That is a language barrier
that you have to face.

861
00:40:32,081 --> 00:40:34,711
I, I remember in 2017, I have to attend

862
00:40:34,921 --> 00:40:37,171
the South African, sharks and rays.

863
00:40:37,171 --> 00:40:38,071
Sharks and rays?

864
00:40:38,401 --> 00:40:38,521
Yeah.

865
00:40:38,771 --> 00:40:39,101
Yeah.

866
00:40:39,271 --> 00:40:45,031
And at, at that time, my English
was so, not so bad, but I was like,

867
00:40:45,541 --> 00:40:49,531
"Can I go or can I stay?" But just
because of that language, I stopped.

868
00:40:49,531 --> 00:40:50,381
I decided to not

869
00:40:53,201 --> 00:40:53,221
go.

870
00:40:53,221 --> 00:40:53,291
Mm-hmm.

871
00:40:53,291 --> 00:40:54,811
Even though at that time I got a
support from Save Our Seas Foundation

872
00:40:54,811 --> 00:40:56,951
to, to attend the, the, the symposium.

873
00:40:57,071 --> 00:41:02,071
I couldn't go because I was like,
"No, I, I'm not yet good. Uh, my

874
00:41:02,071 --> 00:41:05,901
English is not so good to, to stand
and discuss with people." So yeah.

875
00:41:05,901 --> 00:41:06,331
Yeah.

876
00:41:06,331 --> 00:41:11,181
But later on, I decided to say, "Yeah,
I need to leave my comfort zone." Yeah.

877
00:41:11,181 --> 00:41:12,711
I can't be speaking French.

878
00:41:12,711 --> 00:41:15,871
And that's how I came-- I, I went
to Ghana to do my PhD studies.

879
00:41:15,871 --> 00:41:18,021
I started a PhD at home.

880
00:41:18,601 --> 00:41:21,181
I was on, I think it's my second year.

881
00:41:21,301 --> 00:41:22,011
Yeah, it's my second year.

882
00:41:22,971 --> 00:41:28,771
So the challenge was, uh, was then, but
I was not fine with what I was doing.

883
00:41:28,771 --> 00:41:32,791
So I decided to say, "Okay,
let me go somewhere where I can

884
00:41:32,791 --> 00:41:33,561
be really challenged." Mm-hmm.

885
00:41:33,561 --> 00:41:33,571
Yeah.

886
00:41:33,571 --> 00:41:33,711
And how I, you know, I s- I
decided to go in, in Ghana.

887
00:41:33,711 --> 00:41:34,841
I got a, how

888
00:41:41,621 --> 00:41:41,711
do you call it?

889
00:41:41,711 --> 00:41:46,012
Uh, scholarship from the World
Bank And I found, I f- I found

890
00:41:46,012 --> 00:41:48,467
myself in Ghana University of Cape
Coast where I, I, I had my PhD

891
00:41:51,397 --> 00:41:53,701
studies, and I was able
to improve my, my English.

892
00:41:53,701 --> 00:41:53,851
Even though I'm still, you
know, trying to push it, trying

893
00:41:53,851 --> 00:41:53,932
to, uh, im- uh, improve it.

894
00:41:53,932 --> 00:41:54,136
But I think today stand discuss and,
you know, use my words, use my, uh,

895
00:41:54,136 --> 00:41:54,607
language Franca Latina words to back up my

896
00:42:07,567 --> 00:42:07,837
English words.

897
00:42:07,837 --> 00:42:07,877
So, yeah.

898
00:42:07,877 --> 00:42:11,877
Mm-hmm.

899
00:42:12,837 --> 00:42:13,217
Okay.

900
00:42:13,367 --> 00:42:13,387
Yeah.

901
00:42:13,387 --> 00:42:17,292
So these are kind of, the major
two advices I will give them.

902
00:42:17,292 --> 00:42:18,557
Being consistent and
leave your comfort zone.

903
00:42:19,227 --> 00:42:19,557
Yeah.

904
00:42:19,567 --> 00:42:22,987
Nothing will, nothing will come
directly from the sky into your

905
00:42:23,157 --> 00:42:24,337
hand, but you have to fight for it.

906
00:42:24,407 --> 00:42:24,547
You have to battle for
it and you will get.

907
00:42:24,737 --> 00:42:24,907
Yeah.

908
00:42:27,387 --> 00:42:27,777
Yeah.

909
00:42:27,927 --> 00:42:28,227
Yeah.

910
00:42:28,567 --> 00:42:30,037
well, I think that's great advice, Wani.

911
00:42:30,037 --> 00:42:33,827
And, and I wanna thank you very
much for coming on the show here.

912
00:42:33,924 --> 00:42:37,497
it's been a real pleasure having
someone from your country, come

913
00:42:37,497 --> 00:42:40,317
here and share, your story and
about your journey and everything.

914
00:42:40,317 --> 00:42:44,157
And, uh, we'll definitely sometime
future have you back on here to see,

915
00:42:44,197 --> 00:42:45,987
catch up on what you're doing later on.

916
00:42:45,997 --> 00:42:46,017
Yeah.

917
00:42:46,497 --> 00:42:48,987
But, uh, it has been a, it's been
a real pleasure having you on.

918
00:42:49,237 --> 00:42:51,077
Thank you so much for- It's so
much fun … having the time.

919
00:42:51,467 --> 00:42:51,687
Yeah.

920
00:42:51,687 --> 00:42:52,317
Thank you.

921
00:42:53,057 --> 00:42:53,477
Thank you.

922
00:42:53,477 --> 00:42:53,617
Yeah.

923
00:42:53,617 --> 00:42:53,757
Thank

924
00:42:53,757 --> 00:42:53,897
you.

925
00:42:53,897 --> 00:42:54,137
Yeah.

926
00:42:54,237 --> 00:42:54,787
you bet.

927
00:42:54,937 --> 00:42:55,207
All right.

928
00:42:55,727 --> 00:42:56,327
Bye-bye.

929
00:42:56,387 --> 00:42:56,697
Bye.

930
00:42:57,147 --> 00:42:57,357
Bye.

931
00:42:57,727 --> 00:43:00,065
Thank you, Houangninan, for
joining us on today's episode

932
00:43:00,094 --> 00:43:01,431
of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

933
00:43:01,467 --> 00:43:06,232
Dave, 37 sharks and rays
have been found in Benin.

934
00:43:06,627 --> 00:43:09,336
You're probably not surprised by the
amount of sharks because it just-

935
00:43:09,336 --> 00:43:12,627
Yeah … hasn't really been, studied a
lot and hasn't really been discovered.

936
00:43:12,629 --> 00:43:13,010
Mm-hmm.

937
00:43:13,010 --> 00:43:16,541
But that's gotta be, quite interesting
as someone who looks, for sharks and,

938
00:43:16,552 --> 00:43:20,011
trying to discover more sharks, and being
able to understand that these sharks

939
00:43:20,067 --> 00:43:24,691
are there, they just haven't really
been- found or cataloged like the way

940
00:43:24,871 --> 00:43:26,748
Houangninan and his colleagues are doing.

941
00:43:26,752 --> 00:43:27,010
Yeah.

942
00:43:27,196 --> 00:43:30,071
And Benin doesn't have, like, a big
huge coastline either compared to a

943
00:43:30,071 --> 00:43:31,552
lot of the other countries out there.

944
00:43:31,900 --> 00:43:33,593
I would say that 37's a low number.

945
00:43:33,596 --> 00:43:38,558
I'm sure as, he gets more time and more
surveys going, that number's gonna go up.

946
00:43:38,737 --> 00:43:39,009
Yeah.

947
00:43:39,410 --> 00:43:40,873
I don't know what, I don't know what the-
Oh, for sure … I don't know what the

948
00:43:40,873 --> 00:43:45,031
ceiling is, but I'm confident it'll go up,
and I think if they start working offshore

949
00:43:45,385 --> 00:43:48,796
in some of the- Yeah … deeper areas,
that'll even expand the number as well.

950
00:43:48,969 --> 00:43:52,425
Literally going from mostly zero,
' there were a few people that did

951
00:43:52,427 --> 00:43:55,853
some surveys years ago there, but
nothing dedicated like he's doing.

952
00:43:56,081 --> 00:43:56,208
Yeah.

953
00:43:56,208 --> 00:43:56,218
You

954
00:43:56,218 --> 00:44:00,579
know, he's really just taken this whole
project on, and just really gotten

955
00:44:00,579 --> 00:44:01,587
into it, and that's what you need.

956
00:44:01,587 --> 00:44:04,990
You need people like him that are gonna
get into it versus someone… I love going

957
00:44:04,994 --> 00:44:07,723
around these countries and exploring,
but, I'm only there for a short time.

958
00:44:07,725 --> 00:44:10,871
Other people that go into these
countries, they're there for a short time.

959
00:44:11,168 --> 00:44:14,919
but you have one of the locals like him,
like Houangninan, he's the kinda guy

960
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:16,282
you want out there who's gonna be there.

961
00:44:16,282 --> 00:44:17,743
Absolutely … he's into
it and he's dedicated.

962
00:44:17,822 --> 00:44:18,954
So that's, that's just awesome.

963
00:44:18,954 --> 00:44:18,970
Absolutely.

964
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,637
Yeah, no, we are definitely, very lucky
to be able to have people like Houangninan

965
00:44:22,921 --> 00:44:25,777
and out there doing the great work that
he does, and to be able to come on the

966
00:44:25,782 --> 00:44:27,332
podcast and talk about it and be the fan.

967
00:44:27,340 --> 00:44:31,454
Like, it's really cool, to be able
to hear that from listeners, and then

968
00:44:31,468 --> 00:44:34,056
like, we want them to come on and
talk about the work that they do.

969
00:44:34,323 --> 00:44:37,354
it's fun for us to be able to- Oh,
yeah … meet a lot of the people that

970
00:44:37,356 --> 00:44:40,642
are doing the work that we've never
met, before, and they're enjoying

971
00:44:40,643 --> 00:44:44,055
coming on and, it's kinda cool, like,
to just have the, like, to build this

972
00:44:44,081 --> 00:44:45,739
community of researchers- Yep … right?

973
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,989
That's what I love about
doing this- podcast.

974
00:44:48,034 --> 00:44:49,137
It really jazzes me up.

975
00:44:49,137 --> 00:44:49,425
Yeah.

976
00:44:49,425 --> 00:44:50,677
and I know it does for you as well.

977
00:44:50,946 --> 00:44:50,966
Oh, yeah.

978
00:44:50,975 --> 00:44:53,817
So, and I'll be honest, like, folks,
just to let you know, like, when

979
00:44:53,817 --> 00:44:58,668
Dave came back from Sri Lanka,
he was like, "I've got a list of

980
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,349
guests-" Oh … "for, like, a year."

981
00:45:00,598 --> 00:45:00,773
Yeah.

982
00:45:00,773 --> 00:45:05,371
And, and he's so excited about having
people on and talking to them about their

983
00:45:05,372 --> 00:45:08,150
career and just talking all things sharks.

984
00:45:08,205 --> 00:45:08,815
it's great.

985
00:45:08,819 --> 00:45:14,289
So, if you ever see Dave or myself
at conferences and you're into shark

986
00:45:14,289 --> 00:45:18,200
research, you're interested in shark
research, come talk to us, come say hello.

987
00:45:18,205 --> 00:45:19,694
We'd love to chat with you.

988
00:45:19,873 --> 00:45:22,430
I'm gonna be at International Marine
Conservation Congress- Yeah … like,

989
00:45:22,460 --> 00:45:24,466
IMCC8 in Scotland in November.

990
00:45:24,751 --> 00:45:25,966
Please come talk to me.

991
00:45:25,972 --> 00:45:28,139
I would love to chat about podcasting.

992
00:45:28,304 --> 00:45:30,779
Actually, I will be chatting about
podcasting- … in one of my talks.

993
00:45:30,783 --> 00:45:31,863
But, come say hi.

994
00:45:31,866 --> 00:45:35,056
I'd love to meet everybody, and have
those kinds of discussions of what

995
00:45:35,057 --> 00:45:37,706
they're doing and all that kinda
stuff, and you never know, you might

996
00:45:37,706 --> 00:45:39,260
be on the podcast at some point.

997
00:45:39,505 --> 00:45:40,613
Yeah … but yeah, I, I just love it.

998
00:45:40,614 --> 00:45:41,133
It's fun.

999
00:45:41,359 --> 00:45:43,542
but thanks again to Houangninan
and then we're gonna put, links

1000
00:45:43,543 --> 00:45:45,532
to socials in the show notes.

1001
00:45:45,553 --> 00:45:47,927
And then Dave, if people wanna get
ahold of you, how would they do so?

1002
00:45:47,974 --> 00:45:50,449
the best ways is, Lost
Shark Guy on Instagram.

1003
00:45:50,514 --> 00:45:52,168
Please, go there and follow me.

1004
00:45:52,342 --> 00:45:54,858
Also, on my YouTube
channel, at Lost Shark Guy.

1005
00:45:55,218 --> 00:45:55,856
Go on there.

1006
00:45:55,857 --> 00:46:00,135
Andrew and I and, Denise Sotomayor have
been producing a series called Searching

1007
00:46:00,135 --> 00:46:03,803
for Lost Sharks: Extinct or Alive,
where it just follows me around some

1008
00:46:03,803 --> 00:46:07,597
of the places I go around the world,
and, go on there and please subscribe.

1009
00:46:08,084 --> 00:46:08,709
Absolutely.

1010
00:46:08,709 --> 00:46:09,346
it's gonna be great.

1011
00:46:09,359 --> 00:46:10,274
It's gonna be a lot of fun.

1012
00:46:10,563 --> 00:46:11,325
so check that out.

1013
00:46:11,325 --> 00:46:13,377
If you're watching this
on YouTube, subscribe.

1014
00:46:13,535 --> 00:46:16,272
If you haven't watched it on YouTube, go
to our YouTube channel, Beyond Jaws Pod.

1015
00:46:16,454 --> 00:46:19,112
And of course, if you're on
Instagram, Beyond Jaws Pod, DM us.

1016
00:46:19,140 --> 00:46:20,129
We'd love to chat with you.

1017
00:46:20,355 --> 00:46:21,712
And of course, Dave's at Lost Shark.

1018
00:46:21,713 --> 00:46:23,212
So thank you so much for joining us.

1019
00:46:23,215 --> 00:46:26,940
From Dave and I and the Beyond Jaws
podcast, we appreciate you so much.

1020
00:46:26,941 --> 00:46:27,322
Thank you.

1021
00:46:27,332 --> 00:46:27,960
Have a great day.

1022
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,070
We'll talk to you next time,
and happy conservation.