How a Three-Month Trip Turned Into a Career in Sharks

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Today on the podcast, we're
gonna be speaking to Clova

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Mabin from Save Our Seas.

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She's the director of education.

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We love Save Our Seas.

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We always have people on, and they
always impress us to no end, and

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this is definitely no exception.

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We're gonna talk about her, uh,
her experience and how she's an

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adventurer, and how she picked up,
uh, going to across the Atlantic and

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going to South Africa from Scotland.

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And also, like, doing a master's
and PhD with the projects that were

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just available to her on invasive
species, and we're gonna talk

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all invasive species, all sharks.

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We're gonna talk about a bunch of
different things because this career,

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I feel like is one of the, typical
type of careers that people have

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throughout graduate school that I
find that I've had an experience with.

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So I think it's gonna be really
interesting to speak to her.

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So let's start the show.

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Hey, everybody.

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Welcome back to another exciting
episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I'm your co-host, Andrew Lewin, here
with my co-host, Dr. David Ebert,

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also known as The Lost Shark Guy.

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And today we're gonna be talking
to Save Our Seas Director

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of Education, Clova Mabin.

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Dave, like this was a kind of interesting
one for me because, I felt like the

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path that she take, that she took
is very typical of a lot of graduate

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students in terms of taking projects
that are available through the funders.

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Like, a lot of the times, like, we've had
guests on who have actually, like, sought

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out or have been referred to, to continue
to do shark conservation or shark,

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theses, but I felt like this one was
really apropos to what typically happens.

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Uh, is this something that
you've seen in your line of work?

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Yeah.

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I mean, that's very typical.

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Like, people listen to podcasts,
you know, almost well, no one really

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ever has a straight trajectory
from what they start out to do.

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I think what was unique with her
is, unlike a lot of us, she really

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wasn't dialed in just on sharks.

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It was just more the marine environment.

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Uh, which is not unusual.

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I mean, some people- Right
don't come till later.

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But she really was kinda, like, came
kinda a little later to the game than a

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lot of people into the whole shark world.

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And none of her graduate studies really
had anything to do with sharks really, or,

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you know, other than the, doing a, looking
at invasive species, didn't really have

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a lot to do with the marine environment,
or it was kinda minimal, I should say.

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Yeah.

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Um, so she wasn't even doing fish.

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She wasn't doing really anything related
to sharks, which is kind of… Well,

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that, I would say that was probably the
most interesting thing about her whole

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journey, was just where she was and, uh,
how she ended up where she did because

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she really wasn't a, like, gung ho, "I'm
looking for this ultimate shark job."

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Right.

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Right.

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And, uh, and as you say,
like, she's an adventure.

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I, I know her a little bit.

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I've known her for a while, but I had
no idea on the, uh, just how wild a ride

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she's had to get to where she's at today.

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And, um, I think she also talks about,
you know, finishing a PhD, becoming

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a mom, and,, all are all kind of
interesting experiences, which you and I

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have never had to worry about and such.

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so, uh, but I think the women
listening to this might be interested

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to hear a little bit of her story
shared, uh, on that whole aspect.

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So, uh, so yeah.

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Yeah.

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So I'm looking forward to it.

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All right.

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Well, here's the interview
with Clova Mabin.

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Enjoy, and we'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Clova.

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Welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about elasmobranchs?

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Yes.

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Thank

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you so much for having me.

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Yeah.

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You bet.

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You bet.

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Well, welcome to another episode of
the Beyond Jaws podcast, and today

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is a great day because we have an
amazing guest from South Africa.

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And you know whenever Dave has somebody
on from South Africa, you know it's

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gonna be an amazing interview today.

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We have Dr. Clova Mabin, who has an
interesting journey from her home

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country of Scotland to South Africa,
where she is the, uh, director of the

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Save Our Seas Foundation Shark Education
Center, and she's been there since 2019.

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It's located in Kalk Bay, which if you
know that area at all, she's about to

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cross the street from the Brass Bell.

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And ah, do I have a lot of great
memories of the Brass Bell, and

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I'm sure Clova must as well.

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And so we may have to share a story or
two during today's episode, but I digress.

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Clova's been in love with the ocean
since she was a toddler, and has fond

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memories of windswept beaches, freezing
water, and exploring rock pools until

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she couldn't feel her fingers or toes.

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This set her on a lifelong path,
uh, where she started getting,

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earning her degree in biology with
a particular interest in sharks.

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She came to South Africa in 2005
to work with ragged tooth sharks,

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tiger sharks, white sharks in
the tourism and research, area.

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During this time she became involved with,
in the wildlife film industry, developing

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her science communication and project
management skills before returning to

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university to focus on marine education.

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Her subsequent master's and PhDs not
only developed her scientific knowledge,

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but also allowed her to reflect on
the importance in including people in

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the conservation dialogue and action.

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Clova loves to travel, but when
she's in South Africa she likes

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to spend her time outdoors, either
underwater or in the mountains.

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She's a certified PADI Divemaster
and scientific commercial diver.

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Uh, but since becoming a mom,
she sees, uh, her field through

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very different lenses now.

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She understands the value of nature,
connections, confidence and opportunities

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as early in life as possible.

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In addition to her role at Save Our Seas,
she volunteers for several organizations

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that focus on environmental education.

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She enjoys teaching children about
ecology and sustainable lifestyle

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choices, and she's passionate about
sharing her love and knowledge of the

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marine environment, as she believes this
is the best way to shape the future.

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Her educational background, she has a BSc
and honors in zoology from the University

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of Edinburgh in the UK, a Master's of
Science in Conservation Biology from the

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University of Cape Town, and a PhD from
University of Stellenbosch, and she did

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a postdoc at SAAB, the South African
Institute for Aquatic Biodiversity.

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As I mentioned, she's currently
the director of the Save Our

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Seas Foundation Shark Education.

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And well, with all that- … Clova,
welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much.

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The organization, the name of our
organization's a bit of a mouthful.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's okay.

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It's no problem.

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We have had, had plenty of people
on from Save Our Seas, so I think

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everybody knows who we're talking about.

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Um-

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And, uh, Dave, I have to, I have
to ask you- Yeah … I just like a

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clarification, and Clova you can clarify.

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You went to the University of,
it's pronounced Edinburgh, right?

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Not Edinburgh.

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Edinburgh, yeah.

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I just found that out recently.

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That's why, not to,
not to shame you, Dave.

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No, it's okay.

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I just found out recently, 'cause
we're headed to the International

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Marine Conservation Congress, Oh

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Edinburgh, and I was told to say it that
way, because then people will look at

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me funny if I don't say it that way.

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Well, and I have- Well done.

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Well done.

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I'm from- And I, I have to s- I
have to say, just as, from starting

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out, like, Scottish of the English
language, is probably the toughest

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one I have to understanding.

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Interesting.

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So- Yeah … so I might, if I have
to ask you for a definition or

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clarification, don't worry about it.

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I just, like, I have
that, I have a hard one.

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Most of the other ones I get, but
that Scottish I always seem to have

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a little bit of a issue with, so.

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Not Scotch people, just
the language a little bit.

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Just the language.

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So, uh, um, the-

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I don't even have a strong accent,
so I think you should be fine.

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Yeah, no.

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Yeah.

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I d- Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, thank you very much.

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Oh, good.

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Well, so Clova, how did you get interested
in sharks and the marine environment

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and all that conservation stuff?

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Yeah, I suppose, I mean, it
started when I was very little.

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My dad was, um, very interested
in the natural world, um,

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so we were always outside.

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Um, so that's kind of how I
found my connection to nature.

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Um, he had a particular interest
in plants, and I'm sad to say

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I am not green-fingered at all.

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But we spent a lot of time outside.

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Um, I was thinking about
this the other day.

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We didn't actually have a TV
until we were 13, until I was 13.

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so we were just told
to go and play outside.

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And I think that kind of
really, yeah, cemented that

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connection to nature in general.

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And we didn't live close to
the beach, but we spent, we

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still often visited the beach.

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Um, so I think, that kind of,
yeah, I just loved the windswept,

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normally cold beaches in Scotland.

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Um, and yeah, it just kind
of kept becoming something

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that I kept going back to.

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Um, gradually getting warmer
water as I went through my career.

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Although Cape Town's not that warm,
so to be fair, I've gone backwards-

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Yeah … a little bit there.

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So I gotta ask, what's the water
temperature up in Scotland?

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Well, um, it depends on the season,
but, um, yeah, I probably, I did

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a lot of swimming when I was young
in, like, And I was there recently.

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It was probably about
six to eight degrees.

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Ugh.

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Yeah.

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That's,

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that's, that'll wake you

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up.

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Yeah.

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That'll wake you up.

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It's not c- it's not warm.

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I actually did my dive master in
December in Scotland, in the Firth of

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Forth, which is just beside Edinburgh.

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Edinburgh.

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Right.

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and- Edinburgh, thank you … I
remember it was so cold.

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It was four degrees, the water,
and we had to do multiple dives.

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And we would come out the water and, um,
I remember we were mapping a wreck in

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the Forth, and, um, we would come out
and we'd put our hands underneath, which

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we were in gloves and dry suits, and
we'd put our hands underneath the motor

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to get the warm water that was coming
out of the motor to try and warm up.

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It was, um, yeah.

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So it is quite chilly there.

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I learned to scuba dive and do a lot
of diving in colder water, uh, here in

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California, sometimes you get down to
8, but 10, 10, 10, sort of 10 degrees.

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did you find it made you a
better diver when you went to

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warmer climates, warmer water?

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I was not a massive, I was always a
bit paranoid about dry suit diving.

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Um, and that added an element
of, um, extra things to think

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about when you're diving.

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So when you don't have that, I
don't dive in a dry suit here,

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even though some people do.

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Um, but I think just removing that
element means that you have so much more

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capacity to feel comfortable and to be
able to do, and to, yeah, I suppose to

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be a better diver, um, without that.

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So I guess- Yeah … I guess it's
easier, yeah, in warmer water.

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Yeah, 'cause you don't, you don't
have all- You're less fear as well.

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It's, you're less clunky.

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Right.

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Yeah, you don't have- Yeah … the
dry suit and all the other

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stuff on there and stuff.

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Yeah, I've, seeing most people when
you learn, if you learn, like, in the

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tropical areas, then it's kinda like, eh.

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Then you go to the cold water,
you really don't like it so much-

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Mm

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…
um, on that stuff.

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So I'm just kinda curious how
your, uh, your experience was.

234
00:09:41,769 --> 00:09:44,696
So when you started out, so
you got interested in nature,

235
00:09:44,696 --> 00:09:47,635
environment early on, and then you
obviously went on to university.

236
00:09:48,056 --> 00:09:53,666
So after you got your bachelor's degree,
how did you wind up going to South Africa?

237
00:09:53,676 --> 00:09:53,926
Uh,

238
00:09:54,046 --> 00:09:54,206
Mm

239
00:09:54,216 --> 00:09:57,546
…
was there any kind of a straight line,
or were you bounced around at all, or?

240
00:09:58,556 --> 00:10:01,546
Just between my third and fourth year,
so I finished my bachelor's and then

241
00:10:01,546 --> 00:10:02,796
I did my honors also at Edinburgh.

242
00:10:02,796 --> 00:10:06,576
Um, I did a three-month,
um, stint in Madagascar.

243
00:10:07,016 --> 00:10:10,836
it's doing kind of like, um, it was
a marine conservation project with

244
00:10:10,836 --> 00:10:13,606
an organization called Frontier, I
don't think they're around anymore.

245
00:10:14,456 --> 00:10:17,406
Um, where we lived, we basically lived
on the beach, and we would go out every

246
00:10:17,406 --> 00:10:21,886
day diving, doing dive surveys, surveying
the coral and, all the marine life.

247
00:10:21,996 --> 00:10:24,905
that was kinda my real
first, like, immersion in the

248
00:10:24,906 --> 00:10:26,475
marine conservation space.

249
00:10:26,485 --> 00:10:31,035
Um, and also, I mean, I'd been to
Tunisia and Morocco, the Northern

250
00:10:31,046 --> 00:10:34,335
African countries before, but that was,
like, my first time in Southern Africa.

251
00:10:34,652 --> 00:10:36,502
And yeah, I just kind of
got a bit of a taste for it,

252
00:10:36,812 --> 00:10:38,092
being there for three months.

253
00:10:38,222 --> 00:10:41,042
And I did my honors, randomly on birds.

254
00:10:42,812 --> 00:10:44,202
Um, so not marine related at all.

255
00:10:44,202 --> 00:10:48,482
Um, but then I, because of that kind
of time that I'd had in Madagascar,

256
00:10:48,492 --> 00:10:53,422
it set me up to, um, get some work
as a diving aquarist at an aquarium

257
00:10:53,422 --> 00:10:55,432
just north of Edinburgh, um- Okay

258
00:10:55,442 --> 00:10:55,982
called Deep Sea World.

259
00:10:56,462 --> 00:11:00,412
And yeah, I was working, it was
kind of, well, similar to a lot of

260
00:11:00,422 --> 00:11:03,662
these other aquariums where they
have raggies, um, and we would take

261
00:11:03,662 --> 00:11:05,152
people in diving with the raggies.

262
00:11:05,162 --> 00:11:09,392
That would be kind of one of
our- Wow … um, our job roles.

263
00:11:09,402 --> 00:11:13,742
Um, and so When I was there, I met
someone, there was a South African

264
00:11:13,752 --> 00:11:16,872
that came, um, to the aquarium,
and he had a Scottish girlfriend.

265
00:11:17,322 --> 00:11:21,922
And between them, they convinced me
to move out to-- Or to actually, I

266
00:11:21,922 --> 00:11:23,662
was only meant to go for three months.

267
00:11:23,662 --> 00:11:24,542
21 years later.

268
00:11:26,062 --> 00:11:26,452
Um- Famous

269
00:11:26,452 --> 00:11:27,272
last words, yeah.

270
00:11:27,892 --> 00:11:27,982
Yeah.

271
00:11:28,892 --> 00:11:33,402
So I was all set to leave my job there
and go for three months to South Africa.

272
00:11:33,472 --> 00:11:39,542
Um, and that's when I combined a
trip to the East Coast to KZN, um,

273
00:11:39,592 --> 00:11:41,172
to work with raggies and tigers.

274
00:11:41,182 --> 00:11:41,212
Mm-hmm.

275
00:11:41,542 --> 00:11:45,552
And then also, working with, for the
bulk of the time was really spending some

276
00:11:45,552 --> 00:11:49,922
time in Gansbaai, um- Mm-hmm … working
actually with Michael Scholl, um,

277
00:11:49,962 --> 00:11:52,142
for the White Shark Trust, Oh, yeah.

278
00:11:52,142 --> 00:11:54,232
Okay … on his research vessel, Namidii.

279
00:11:54,972 --> 00:11:55,662
so- And this is part of

280
00:11:55,902 --> 00:11:56,492
the three months.

281
00:11:56,622 --> 00:11:57,202
This is all part of the three-month stint.

282
00:11:57,202 --> 00:11:58,802
This is all part of
the three months, yeah.

283
00:11:58,802 --> 00:11:59,012
Okay.

284
00:11:59,012 --> 00:11:59,022
Okay.

285
00:11:59,022 --> 00:12:01,562
So I had, I worked two weeks in,
in, on the- Yeah … East Coast-

286
00:12:01,562 --> 00:12:04,472
That's amazing … and then two
and a half months in, Gansbaai.

287
00:12:04,842 --> 00:12:05,062
So-

288
00:12:05,082 --> 00:12:05,342
Yeah.

289
00:12:05,352 --> 00:12:05,732
Okay.

290
00:12:05,982 --> 00:12:06,362
Okay.

291
00:12:06,372 --> 00:12:06,522
So that-

292
00:12:06,522 --> 00:12:07,812
Yeah, that's kind of how it all happened

293
00:12:07,812 --> 00:12:10,362
When you did your honors,
when you did your honors, you

294
00:12:10,362 --> 00:12:11,522
went back to do your honors.

295
00:12:11,572 --> 00:12:13,802
That's like a fourth year in,
for your- Yeah … undergraduate.

296
00:12:13,812 --> 00:12:14,862
Is that what that is?

297
00:12:14,862 --> 00:12:15,032
Yeah.

298
00:12:15,032 --> 00:12:18,102
Did you-- you mentioned birds, and I'm
just curious, like, did you get a choice

299
00:12:18,102 --> 00:12:21,342
in terms of the project you wanted to
do and you were just curious about that?

300
00:12:21,362 --> 00:12:24,932
Or was it just more of like it's
assigned to you and this is something

301
00:12:24,932 --> 00:12:27,222
that you're like, "Oh yeah, I'll do
this 'cause I wanna get my honors done"?

302
00:12:28,078 --> 00:12:31,158
I kind of was pushing for something
marine, but there weren't any supervisors

303
00:12:31,158 --> 00:12:34,468
available in the marine- Gotcha … um,
that had- Okay … marine projects

304
00:12:34,468 --> 00:12:35,988
that I could kind of slot into.

305
00:12:36,538 --> 00:12:36,708
Right.

306
00:12:36,708 --> 00:12:36,728
Um,

307
00:12:37,358 --> 00:12:39,388
so yeah, it was actually an animal
behavior Something to choose.

308
00:12:39,388 --> 00:12:40,478
It was a, a- Okay

309
00:12:40,518 --> 00:12:44,188
a prowess behavior project, so
I was interested in behavior.

310
00:12:44,188 --> 00:12:44,238
Yeah, which is super interesting.

311
00:12:44,238 --> 00:12:44,248
Yeah.

312
00:12:44,248 --> 00:12:47,278
Um, and so I kind of thought, "Oh, well
it's not really marine, but at least it's

313
00:12:47,318 --> 00:12:48,718
got some elements that are interesting."

314
00:12:48,898 --> 00:12:49,248
Yeah.

315
00:12:49,258 --> 00:12:49,778
mm-hmm.

316
00:12:49,778 --> 00:12:53,418
Now, do you find, like, going out of
that, initial interest, do you find

317
00:12:53,418 --> 00:12:56,978
that's helped you in your career,
you know, like afterwards, you

318
00:12:56,978 --> 00:12:58,668
know, just to have that perspective?

319
00:12:58,678 --> 00:12:58,698
Um,

320
00:12:59,645 --> 00:13:02,071
Yeah, I haven't really thought that
much about it, to be honest, for a

321
00:13:02,071 --> 00:13:06,111
long time, but, um, I think any variety
helps you- Right … in your career,

322
00:13:06,751 --> 00:13:09,261
um- Yeah … see things from different
perspectives or think about things

323
00:13:09,261 --> 00:13:12,671
slightly differently, so- Right … I
suppose in reflection it probably has.

324
00:13:13,201 --> 00:13:16,841
Right, right … but it's not something
that I've reflected on myself.

325
00:13:17,231 --> 00:13:17,581
For sure.

326
00:13:17,621 --> 00:13:17,641
Yeah.

327
00:13:17,641 --> 00:13:17,786
It's a good point.

328
00:13:17,786 --> 00:13:18,111
I'll think about that now.

329
00:13:18,111 --> 00:13:18,171
So,

330
00:13:21,071 --> 00:13:23,451
yeah, when you, when you were in w- b-
when you were back home in Scotland,

331
00:13:23,481 --> 00:13:26,126
did you ever see, like, basking
sharks or have any experience with

332
00:13:26,126 --> 00:13:27,686
sharks there outside the aquarium?

333
00:13:27,686 --> 00:13:28,986
Sadly, no, I haven't.

334
00:13:28,986 --> 00:13:29,386
Okay.

335
00:13:29,386 --> 00:13:32,536
I've been wanting to do the basking
sharks for so long, and, uh- Mm-hmm

336
00:13:32,536 --> 00:13:33,936
I wanted to get together with Isla

337
00:13:37,246 --> 00:13:38,205
and, um- Isla's about to, yeah … go
out with Basking Shark Scotland.

338
00:13:38,205 --> 00:13:42,146
But, um, actually one of the guy that
started Basking Shark Scotland, Shane, he

339
00:13:42,146 --> 00:13:43,796
actually worked at the aquarium with me.

340
00:13:43,806 --> 00:13:45,676
He was one of the diving
actors- Oh, cool … as well.

341
00:13:46,336 --> 00:13:48,336
Um- Okay … so it's a small world.

342
00:13:48,656 --> 00:13:51,836
But, um, yeah, I've been wanting
to do that but haven't, I've just,

343
00:13:51,916 --> 00:13:55,496
and then, yeah, it's become a bit
unpredictable, the window now, so

344
00:13:55,556 --> 00:13:58,936
every time I've gone back, I've kind
of thought about it, and I thought

345
00:13:59,126 --> 00:14:00,646
about doing it for my 40th actually.

346
00:14:00,726 --> 00:14:04,076
Um- Yeah … just never really got,
I didn't quite get the window in.

347
00:14:04,076 --> 00:14:07,006
It was getting smaller and smaller, and
it was, yeah, it was just too tricky.

348
00:14:07,346 --> 00:14:08,466
but- So- … one day hopefully.

349
00:14:09,316 --> 00:14:11,696
Yeah, so when you were, you were
doing, you talk about you, you

350
00:14:11,696 --> 00:14:14,976
worked on birds and then you
worked on, like, invasive species.

351
00:14:14,986 --> 00:14:17,806
Like, as far as with your master's
or PhD, you really didn't work

352
00:14:17,806 --> 00:14:19,286
on sharks directly, did you?

353
00:14:19,866 --> 00:14:20,006
No.

354
00:14:20,986 --> 00:14:24,166
So other than the work as a research
assistant, um, where I was working

355
00:14:24,166 --> 00:14:28,776
on sharks, and then- Mm-hmm … yeah,
just kind of always kind of having

356
00:14:28,786 --> 00:14:32,766
kind of, like, a touch of it in
my life, then, I didn't do any

357
00:14:32,776 --> 00:14:34,826
re- my own research on sharks, no.

358
00:14:35,774 --> 00:14:36,224
Yeah.

359
00:14:36,224 --> 00:14:37,204
And then so, yeah.

360
00:14:37,204 --> 00:14:39,794
W- I mean, 'cause that's really
interesting but you had that interest,

361
00:14:39,794 --> 00:14:43,334
that passion to wanna work on
sharks, but you just sort of take…

362
00:14:43,354 --> 00:14:47,154
when like came f- like your master's
and stuff, like what kind of prompted

363
00:14:47,154 --> 00:14:49,984
you to decide, like, you're already in
South Africa, you were doing shark stuff

364
00:14:49,984 --> 00:14:54,084
already, and I presume after the three
months or so you decide, "Well, I'm gonna

365
00:14:54,084 --> 00:14:57,504
stay here." What was your thinking like?

366
00:14:57,604 --> 00:14:59,534
Were you just gonna stay there
and work on sharks, or what was

367
00:14:59,534 --> 00:15:01,644
your kinda thinking at the time?

368
00:15:01,644 --> 00:15:01,704
So

369
00:15:01,704 --> 00:15:03,734
actually, I did actually
go home after three months.

370
00:15:04,434 --> 00:15:04,874
Oh, you did?

371
00:15:05,434 --> 00:15:05,784
I went back to Scotland.

372
00:15:05,784 --> 00:15:05,804
Okay, you

373
00:15:05,804 --> 00:15:06,194
did stay.

374
00:15:06,274 --> 00:15:06,514
Gotcha.

375
00:15:06,524 --> 00:15:06,697
I went

376
00:15:06,697 --> 00:15:07,834
back to Scotland for a week.

377
00:15:08,564 --> 00:15:09,044
Okay.

378
00:15:11,434 --> 00:15:15,114
It was meant to be back to Scotland for
good, and then I actually got a call,

379
00:15:15,144 --> 00:15:18,134
um, from a friend of mine, um, who
was working for National Geographic.

380
00:15:18,154 --> 00:15:22,894
I'd met him on the shark boats and he
said, "Why don't you come out and," there

381
00:15:22,894 --> 00:15:27,104
was a shoot they were doing actually
on baboons, um- Cool … for National

382
00:15:27,104 --> 00:15:30,554
Geographic, and he said that they were
looking for a production assistant.

383
00:15:31,094 --> 00:15:34,124
So he said, "Why don't you come and
do that if you're not doing anything?"

384
00:15:34,184 --> 00:15:37,644
so I went out again a week later, um,
and stayed for another, three months.

385
00:15:37,644 --> 00:15:40,384
And then so I did that for a month, and
then I did another two months with the

386
00:15:40,384 --> 00:15:42,424
White Shark Trust, after that as well,

387
00:15:42,454 --> 00:15:43,154
So, so this is interesting.

388
00:15:43,154 --> 00:15:47,021
Now, okay, so you go back for a film,
like as a production assistant, which is

389
00:15:47,051 --> 00:15:50,671
completely different than what you were
doing and sort of on your other aspect.

390
00:15:50,671 --> 00:15:52,371
I love these sort of, these tangents.

391
00:15:52,411 --> 00:15:55,121
Was it just like, "Hey, this is a
way to get back there, and I know

392
00:15:55,121 --> 00:15:57,691
I already have contacts so I can
work with the White Shark Trust"?

393
00:15:57,701 --> 00:16:02,351
Or were you generally
interested in wildlife filming?

394
00:16:02,361 --> 00:16:04,401
'Cause that obviously is an
interest that a lot of people go.

395
00:16:04,401 --> 00:16:06,791
You're working for Save Our Seas,
which is definitely interested

396
00:16:06,821 --> 00:16:08,571
in wildlife films and so forth.

397
00:16:08,881 --> 00:16:10,791
I'm curious to know your
thinking around that.

398
00:16:11,481 --> 00:16:13,801
Yeah, I was definitely
interested in wildlife film.

399
00:16:13,951 --> 00:16:16,531
Um, and I kind of had immersed
myself a little bit in that,

400
00:16:17,711 --> 00:16:18,981
um, as I'd been going along.

401
00:16:19,041 --> 00:16:22,871
I always loved watching documentaries,
and I never made anything of my

402
00:16:22,871 --> 00:16:25,131
own, but it was something that
I was really interested in.

403
00:16:25,291 --> 00:16:29,651
so yeah, that kind of seemed like a ideal
opportunity to try have a taste of it.

404
00:16:30,571 --> 00:16:30,591
Yeah.

405
00:16:30,761 --> 00:16:31,151
Um- Love

406
00:16:31,151 --> 00:16:31,331
it

407
00:16:31,841 --> 00:16:35,811
…
And so then actually after those three
months I then went back to Scotland again.

408
00:16:37,511 --> 00:16:41,781
I did a teaching English, English
course randomly, for a month.

409
00:16:41,871 --> 00:16:45,451
And then I saw this job come
up for a wildlife film course

410
00:16:45,481 --> 00:16:47,581
coordinator in Cape Town.

411
00:16:48,351 --> 00:16:48,661
Okay.

412
00:16:48,691 --> 00:16:51,141
And so they had started the
Wildlife Film Academy it was called.

413
00:16:51,151 --> 00:16:51,181
Okay.

414
00:16:51,531 --> 00:16:53,441
And they were looking
for a course coordinator.

415
00:16:53,511 --> 00:16:56,271
Um, and so I went back out again.

416
00:16:57,891 --> 00:17:00,021
This was kind of the start of
it being more permanent now.

417
00:17:00,151 --> 00:17:02,931
So then- Yeah … then I, and then
I stayed there for, I was there for

418
00:17:02,931 --> 00:17:06,351
a year and a half doing kind of like
all the logistics and the planning and

419
00:17:06,351 --> 00:17:09,531
the supporting, but I was also getting
to experience all the courses myself.

420
00:17:09,531 --> 00:17:10,291
I would sit in on all the classes.

421
00:17:10,291 --> 00:17:10,621
Of course.

422
00:17:11,221 --> 00:17:12,451
I would go on all the field trips.

423
00:17:12,491 --> 00:17:14,441
They ran courses for a month at a time.

424
00:17:14,451 --> 00:17:14,471
Yeah.

425
00:17:14,811 --> 00:17:17,311
And each course would go on a
week-long field trip, and then they

426
00:17:17,311 --> 00:17:19,871
would come back and edit, and I
would be part of that whole process.

427
00:17:19,871 --> 00:17:23,651
So I had like a year's training,
being trained up as well.

428
00:17:23,831 --> 00:17:23,981
That's amazing.

429
00:17:23,981 --> 00:17:24,581
Um, in this.

430
00:17:24,581 --> 00:17:25,071
And they're paying you to

431
00:17:25,071 --> 00:17:25,311
do it.

432
00:17:25,891 --> 00:17:26,881
And they were paying me to do it.

433
00:17:26,961 --> 00:17:26,981
Yeah.

434
00:17:27,071 --> 00:17:30,161
I mean, I was in my 20s still as well,
so it- Of course … seemed like a dream.

435
00:17:30,331 --> 00:17:30,681
Um-

436
00:17:30,691 --> 00:17:31,241
Yeah.

437
00:17:32,011 --> 00:17:32,481
Yeah.

438
00:17:32,481 --> 00:17:35,321
And then I went from there, I actually,
one of our lecturers on the course,

439
00:17:35,441 --> 00:17:39,341
um, Richard Matthews, I then, he
had a wildlife film company in Cape

440
00:17:39,341 --> 00:17:42,681
Town, but he had been working for the
BBC for the natural history unit as

441
00:17:42,681 --> 00:17:44,891
a producer for 20-something years.

442
00:17:44,891 --> 00:17:45,811
on blue-chip films.

443
00:17:45,811 --> 00:17:48,981
And then he was looking for a
researcher, and production manager.

444
00:17:49,151 --> 00:17:51,021
So then he asked me to go and join them.

445
00:17:51,711 --> 00:17:54,621
And so then I went from there to
kind of a slightly different role.

446
00:17:54,771 --> 00:17:57,931
And then I was kind of in the wildlife
film space- probably for the next

447
00:17:57,931 --> 00:17:59,421
three and a half years after that.

448
00:17:59,621 --> 00:17:59,988
Um- So

449
00:17:59,988 --> 00:18:02,831
you- Yeah … in a place where there's,
like, a lot of filming going on

450
00:18:02,831 --> 00:18:06,231
'cause there's so much diversity of,
environment that you can film, right?

451
00:18:06,891 --> 00:18:09,671
To be honest, actually, it's funny
you say that because, and I know

452
00:18:09,671 --> 00:18:11,211
that you're from Canada, um- Yeah.

453
00:18:11,211 --> 00:18:11,471
So I,

454
00:18:11,641 --> 00:18:12,691
and I've never been to Africa,
so … we actually did most

455
00:18:12,691 --> 00:18:13,361
of our filming in Canada.

456
00:18:13,871 --> 00:18:14,661
Oh, really?

457
00:18:15,051 --> 00:18:16,051
That's hilarious.

458
00:18:17,545 --> 00:18:20,015
Yeah, so he worked on these
big blue chip productions.

459
00:18:20,025 --> 00:18:20,045
Yeah.

460
00:18:20,045 --> 00:18:23,755
So he did some odd, like, odd, like,
he supported other film crews that were

461
00:18:23,755 --> 00:18:27,225
coming to Africa, and he had a whole
lot of, um, aerial work that they did.

462
00:18:27,305 --> 00:18:31,625
Um, he developed one of the first,
um, gyro-stabilized, for a- um,

463
00:18:31,625 --> 00:18:33,935
light aircraft- a camera system.

464
00:18:33,945 --> 00:18:38,055
Um, and but we actually spent a lot
of time and we, we were working on

465
00:18:38,055 --> 00:18:41,545
a big film about wolves that took us
almost the full time I was with him.

466
00:18:41,705 --> 00:18:44,925
so from start to finish, we were
filming in both BC, both in the Great

467
00:18:44,925 --> 00:18:46,935
Bear Rainforest and in the Rockies.

468
00:18:48,075 --> 00:18:51,465
so you didn't really have any, like,
set plans or, like, you wanted to be

469
00:18:51,465 --> 00:18:53,135
in production or film or anything.

470
00:18:53,135 --> 00:18:58,495
You just, it was sorta through
opportunities, people you met, contacts.

471
00:18:58,805 --> 00:19:02,465
You kinda got off on this journey
going into, like, the film industry.

472
00:19:03,065 --> 00:19:04,085
I kind of did, yeah.

473
00:19:04,085 --> 00:19:07,352
It seems a bit, unhinged
when I think back about it.

474
00:19:07,352 --> 00:19:07,736
Well,

475
00:19:07,736 --> 00:19:08,505
it- But

476
00:19:08,505 --> 00:19:10,095
I didn't really have a game plan clearly.

477
00:19:10,105 --> 00:19:13,155
But I was just kind of taking the
different paths as they came along.

478
00:19:13,725 --> 00:19:15,955
'Cause, yeah, a lot, obviously with a
lot of young people they think, "I'm

479
00:19:15,955 --> 00:19:18,645
gonna become a wildlife photographer,
and I'm gonna go-" Yeah … "do this

480
00:19:18,645 --> 00:19:20,885
and I'm gonna do that." And they,
course nothing ever happens, and you

481
00:19:21,415 --> 00:19:24,815
sorta, like, I don't know what the
right word is, stumbled or fumbled

482
00:19:24,815 --> 00:19:28,565
or whatever wound up in that world.

483
00:19:29,035 --> 00:19:29,745
That, that's- Yeah.

484
00:19:29,745 --> 00:19:30,025
So a lot of lucky

485
00:19:30,365 --> 00:19:30,975
breaks.

486
00:19:31,245 --> 00:19:35,040
You didn't do, like, a whole bunch
of, like, photography or any of that

487
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:36,620
stuff before you got involved in it.

488
00:19:36,670 --> 00:19:38,280
And then so you literally
learned on the job.

489
00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:42,050
I was doing behind camera, but I wasn't
doing much of the filming myself.

490
00:19:42,060 --> 00:19:42,090
Okay.

491
00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:46,090
I was doing more finding the content,
developing the content, contacting

492
00:19:46,090 --> 00:19:50,400
the scientists, building the stories,
writing all the supporting documents,

493
00:19:50,430 --> 00:19:52,070
and then the planning of the shoots.

494
00:19:52,090 --> 00:19:55,590
Like, 'cause we would go for a month at a
time to Canada, across different seasons.

495
00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:58,480
And so I would do all the kind of
production management, the planning,

496
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,580
the budgeting, all the kind of
support work for the filming as well.

497
00:20:02,580 --> 00:20:05,660
So I mean, I've always been quite
an organized person, and so that

498
00:20:05,660 --> 00:20:07,840
kind of, felt, came quite easily.

499
00:20:07,980 --> 00:20:11,077
I mean, I loved photography, but I-
Yeah … I don't think I had the skills.

500
00:20:11,657 --> 00:20:14,987
But no, still you're in that who- you're
in that whole world that, I mean, a

501
00:20:14,987 --> 00:20:17,947
lot of, again, a lot of young people
coming up, that's what they wanna do.

502
00:20:17,947 --> 00:20:20,727
Whether you're working on
content or filming and stuff,

503
00:20:20,777 --> 00:20:22,407
I think that's gotta be, is
definitely one of the more

504
00:20:22,407 --> 00:20:26,387
interesting, uh, routes of anybody
I've talked to get into that world.

505
00:20:26,887 --> 00:20:29,337
I must say, though, actually, that
something like, one thing, I mean,

506
00:20:29,337 --> 00:20:32,267
maybe it's a tip for people that
are trying to get into that field.

507
00:20:32,687 --> 00:20:36,837
But something like Wildscreen, um, I
volunteered at one of the Wildscreen

508
00:20:36,937 --> 00:20:41,247
film festivals in Bristol, which is the
kind of like the Jackson Hole, that every

509
00:20:41,247 --> 00:20:43,007
second year then they do Wildscreen.

510
00:20:43,057 --> 00:20:47,287
and volunteering at something
like that is also a great way to

511
00:20:47,287 --> 00:20:48,827
kind of get your foot in the door.

512
00:20:48,887 --> 00:20:52,297
I think I did it in 2005,
um- Okay … or 2006.

513
00:20:52,477 --> 00:20:53,017
I can't remember now.

514
00:20:53,127 --> 00:20:55,587
Um- Okay … but yeah, that
was also a really good way

515
00:20:55,587 --> 00:20:57,207
to meet lots of people, um-

516
00:20:57,217 --> 00:20:57,637
Mm-hmm

517
00:20:57,647 --> 00:20:58,837
…
if you are trying to find your feet.

518
00:20:58,917 --> 00:21:00,437
So that could also be something that-

519
00:21:00,567 --> 00:21:01,097
Yeah

520
00:21:01,607 --> 00:21:01,857
yeah, is

521
00:21:01,857 --> 00:21:01,887
a good tip.

522
00:21:01,887 --> 00:21:05,707
So, so you, so you did that for a few
years, and then at this point, you still

523
00:21:05,707 --> 00:21:07,167
hadn't gone back for your master's.

524
00:21:07,167 --> 00:21:09,387
You were just still doing
mostly the filming stuff, right?

525
00:21:10,047 --> 00:21:14,024
Yeah, I kind of had a quite a pivotal,
and I remember the moment, to a T,

526
00:21:14,824 --> 00:21:17,464
yeah, I was living in Cape Town, but
in a different part of Cape Town,

527
00:21:17,604 --> 00:21:19,254
in Hout Bay, if you know Cape Town.

528
00:21:19,254 --> 00:21:20,439
Mm. Oh, I love Hout Bay.

529
00:21:20,439 --> 00:21:21,924
Um, so on the coastline.

530
00:21:21,954 --> 00:21:25,864
And I remember hearing basically
that a whole s- a whole pod of

531
00:21:25,864 --> 00:21:27,404
whales had beached themselves.

532
00:21:28,054 --> 00:21:29,894
quite close to where I was living.

533
00:21:30,094 --> 00:21:32,534
And I think there was 50 or something.

534
00:21:32,534 --> 00:21:33,304
it was huge.

535
00:21:33,404 --> 00:21:35,664
and they were looking for
volunteers to help them.

536
00:21:35,664 --> 00:21:37,944
And actually, another thing which I've
completely forgotten about was I'd

537
00:21:38,474 --> 00:21:42,690
once done in the UK, I'd done a marine
mammal, um, what do you call those?

538
00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:46,280
A marine mammal stranding course to
support- Oh, yeah … marine mammals and

539
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:47,580
to get them back- Yeah … into the ocean.

540
00:21:47,630 --> 00:21:52,020
Um, and so with that, also that
experience in the UK, I thought

541
00:21:52,020 --> 00:21:53,250
I'd go along and try and help.

542
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:58,390
and I remember, the wildlife filmmaker
that I was working for at the time, he

543
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,250
phoned me as I was driving there, and
he said, " Have you heard about this?

544
00:22:01,250 --> 00:22:04,917
Can you tell me where I should come
to get, like, the blood and the tears

545
00:22:04,917 --> 00:22:10,567
of people and, those important shots
to build a story?" Mm-hmm. But for me,

546
00:22:10,597 --> 00:22:13,197
I just kind of thought, this is it.
I'm not sure I'm in the right field

547
00:22:13,197 --> 00:22:17,960
anymore." I, I don't know if I, I want
to be going for those shots, even though

548
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,850
I understand they build a picture,
and they have an impact, and they help

549
00:22:20,860 --> 00:22:23,180
people realize their emotions- Mm-hmm

550
00:22:23,180 --> 00:22:25,940
and possibly want to
connect it with the ocean.

551
00:22:26,340 --> 00:22:28,710
But for me, I don't know
whether this is right for me.

552
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,950
Um, so kind of after then, after
that point, I decided I was

553
00:22:32,950 --> 00:22:34,390
gonna go back and study more.

554
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,650
Um, so then I applied to do this
master's in conservation biology at UCT.

555
00:22:39,450 --> 00:22:39,610
Yeah.

556
00:22:39,650 --> 00:22:40,830
But now, and there you w-
and what'd you work on there?

557
00:22:40,830 --> 00:22:43,830
Was it- Crabs or something, or?

558
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:44,320
No.

559
00:22:44,930 --> 00:22:46,890
That was my PhD. Okay.

560
00:22:46,890 --> 00:22:50,800
Um, so again, it was a bit of a similar
situation to my honors actually,

561
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:55,170
that, um, I wanted to do something
on sharks, but there wasn't anyone

562
00:22:55,210 --> 00:22:58,660
available, who could support me in
that at the university at the time.

563
00:22:58,670 --> 00:23:00,354
Um, It was a part coursework.

564
00:23:00,384 --> 00:23:01,914
That master's is a part coursework.

565
00:23:01,914 --> 00:23:02,974
It's over 14 months.

566
00:23:03,034 --> 00:23:05,164
Um, so it's a very intensive, 10 months
or something of coursework, or nine months

567
00:23:07,274 --> 00:23:09,944
of coursework, and then,
five months of, thesis.

568
00:23:10,447 --> 00:23:13,657
What was kind of available to me
in the marine space was, actually

569
00:23:13,687 --> 00:23:18,327
looking at recreational vessels as
vectors for transferring invasive

570
00:23:18,327 --> 00:23:20,117
species, marine invasive species.

571
00:23:20,817 --> 00:23:24,917
So particularly looking at yachts
and their roles, um, in terms

572
00:23:24,917 --> 00:23:28,717
of fouling, um, for transferring
invasive species around the world.

573
00:23:29,867 --> 00:23:29,977
Okay.

574
00:23:29,987 --> 00:23:30,447
Yeah.

575
00:23:30,527 --> 00:23:30,767
Okay.

576
00:23:30,767 --> 00:23:30,827
I see.

577
00:23:30,827 --> 00:23:32,627
So it kind of combined a
little bit of my diving.

578
00:23:32,627 --> 00:23:35,897
It was also an opportunity, and I was kind
of realizing at this point as well, that

579
00:23:35,897 --> 00:23:37,537
I really wanted to do something applied.

580
00:23:38,127 --> 00:23:41,447
So I didn't want to do something,
necessarily focusing on something

581
00:23:41,447 --> 00:23:44,747
just like, just behavior change,
um- Mm-hmm … or something kind

582
00:23:44,747 --> 00:23:46,737
of very ecological like that.

583
00:23:46,747 --> 00:23:48,787
I wanted to kind of have
something that I could see the

584
00:23:48,787 --> 00:23:50,567
application of it, from the get-go.

585
00:23:50,567 --> 00:23:51,167
Okay.

586
00:23:51,167 --> 00:23:51,607
Okay.

587
00:23:51,657 --> 00:23:54,827
and it was at a time also where, um,
South Africa was really looking at

588
00:23:54,907 --> 00:23:58,497
its invasive species legislation,
um, and it was becoming really

589
00:23:58,517 --> 00:24:02,247
important that they understood, um,
how invasive species were getting in.

590
00:24:03,057 --> 00:24:03,417
Yeah.

591
00:24:03,697 --> 00:24:06,337
so you get your master's
degree and, and then what?

592
00:24:06,577 --> 00:24:07,137
What'd you do?

593
00:24:07,217 --> 00:24:08,527
What'd your next step from there?

594
00:24:09,207 --> 00:24:15,607
So then from there, I decided to do…
So my story does sound a bit unhinged.

595
00:24:16,077 --> 00:24:16,297
Sorry.

596
00:24:17,387 --> 00:24:20,647
Um, then I decided to do
a transatlantic, crossing.

597
00:24:22,543 --> 00:24:23,743
And I sailed from- Sure, why not?

598
00:24:23,753 --> 00:24:26,993
Martinique to the Azores,
on a big, a big yacht.

599
00:24:27,163 --> 00:24:28,953
Um, there was only three of us as crew.

600
00:24:28,963 --> 00:24:32,923
Um, but that was, yeah, I kind
of needed a proper break from

601
00:24:32,923 --> 00:24:34,643
the very intensive master's.

602
00:24:34,733 --> 00:24:39,533
Um, and so, yeah, sadly we didn't do much
sailing because there wasn't much wind.

603
00:24:39,913 --> 00:24:40,983
So we- Yeah … ended up motoring.

604
00:24:40,983 --> 00:24:41,763
It was a delivery.

605
00:24:42,083 --> 00:24:44,693
Um, but we ended up sail motoring across.

606
00:24:44,743 --> 00:24:46,433
I've been a, a sailor for many years.

607
00:24:46,483 --> 00:24:50,373
and so- Oh, okay … that also was why
I had chosen that, um, the recreational

608
00:24:50,373 --> 00:24:54,073
vessels, for my master's, because I had
the links in the yacht clubs and I could,

609
00:24:54,233 --> 00:24:54,663
Yeah.

610
00:24:54,723 --> 00:24:54,823
Yeah.

611
00:24:54,843 --> 00:24:55,343
Oh, okay.

612
00:24:55,343 --> 00:24:55,963
It was quite easy to do.

613
00:24:56,603 --> 00:24:58,433
I think it's really interesting- But
yeah, so I did the, I did the crossing.

614
00:24:59,083 --> 00:24:59,613
That's awesome.

615
00:24:59,713 --> 00:24:59,743
Okay.

616
00:24:59,753 --> 00:25:02,373
Your story's very interesting because
it seems like every once in a while you

617
00:25:02,373 --> 00:25:05,453
do these, like, adventurous things, like
go down to South Africa, which is, you

618
00:25:05,453 --> 00:25:08,313
know, obviously a far place from where
you grew up in Scotland, and then you

619
00:25:08,313 --> 00:25:12,563
go on this transatlantic voyage- because
you had these ties, which obviously

620
00:25:12,563 --> 00:25:15,753
is, amazing and it builds, like, the
character and adventure in your life.

621
00:25:15,773 --> 00:25:18,790
But when you're at the time and
you're like, "I need a break," They

622
00:25:18,790 --> 00:25:21,730
can be difficult decisions because
you're like, you can lose momentum

623
00:25:21,730 --> 00:25:23,320
in your career, some people think.

624
00:25:23,330 --> 00:25:25,090
Mm. I know I thought about that as well.

625
00:25:25,390 --> 00:25:26,250
and it happens.

626
00:25:26,250 --> 00:25:28,650
Like, I feel like your story's like
we go in and out of these things,

627
00:25:28,650 --> 00:25:31,970
and we go with what's given to
us and what's, presented to us.

628
00:25:32,390 --> 00:25:36,710
What do you think drives that sense
of taking a break and enjoying

629
00:25:36,710 --> 00:25:38,910
life, for you in particular?

630
00:25:39,315 --> 00:25:40,065
I could be off too.

631
00:25:40,065 --> 00:25:42,675
You might just be like, "No, no, I just
did it 'cause I felt like it." Who knows?

632
00:25:44,555 --> 00:25:45,045
I don't know.

633
00:25:45,045 --> 00:25:46,045
That's a really good question.

634
00:25:46,045 --> 00:25:47,275
I think I'm gonna have to reflect

635
00:25:49,475 --> 00:25:50,995
on that a little bit
more- … about why that.

636
00:25:50,995 --> 00:25:51,315
I don't know.

637
00:25:51,315 --> 00:25:52,671
I've never really thought
about it like that before.

638
00:25:52,671 --> 00:25:52,785
It's a

639
00:25:52,785 --> 00:25:54,025
therapy session, Clova.

640
00:25:54,025 --> 00:25:54,415
It's also a therapy session.

641
00:25:54,415 --> 00:25:54,875
Yeah, I know.

642
00:25:54,875 --> 00:25:56,395
I do feel like this is-
Yeah … this is good.

643
00:25:57,125 --> 00:25:58,145
People would pay for this.

644
00:26:00,705 --> 00:26:03,695
I mean, there's obviously something
in my character that drives that.

645
00:26:03,795 --> 00:26:03,955
Right.

646
00:26:04,415 --> 00:26:08,008
Um- Yeah … I'm thinking
actually even going forward, there

647
00:26:08,008 --> 00:26:09,498
has been quite a lot of that.

648
00:26:10,328 --> 00:26:14,008
It con- continues in my life-
Yeah … these little moments.

649
00:26:14,088 --> 00:26:18,052
but I mean, also to be fair, I did
actually already have a job lined up

650
00:26:18,052 --> 00:26:19,562
for when I got back from that trip.

651
00:26:19,722 --> 00:26:22,942
so I wasn't completely,
making kind of irresponsible

652
00:26:22,942 --> 00:26:24,352
decisions or anything like that.

653
00:26:24,362 --> 00:26:25,445
Like, I had the security- No

654
00:26:25,445 --> 00:26:27,865
of knowing that I had a
job, um, to come back to.

655
00:26:27,875 --> 00:26:32,325
Um, and they were willing to wait for
me while I sailed across the Atlantic.

656
00:26:32,685 --> 00:26:33,555
so yeah.

657
00:26:33,555 --> 00:26:33,715
I mean- And they

658
00:26:33,715 --> 00:26:34,495
were okay with that?

659
00:26:35,315 --> 00:26:35,815
Yeah.

660
00:26:36,565 --> 00:26:36,915
That's so

661
00:26:36,915 --> 00:26:37,195
cool.

662
00:26:37,215 --> 00:26:37,725
I mean, yeah.

663
00:26:37,725 --> 00:26:38,215
I'm lucky to- That's a good, that's a good

664
00:26:38,215 --> 00:26:38,875
employer … to do it.

665
00:26:39,005 --> 00:26:39,225
Yeah.

666
00:26:39,225 --> 00:26:39,365
That's awesome.

667
00:26:39,365 --> 00:26:39,715
That's awesome.

668
00:26:40,002 --> 00:26:42,552
Had you ever sailed across the
Atlantic before you did that?

669
00:26:42,552 --> 00:26:43,332
No.

670
00:26:43,332 --> 00:26:44,892
Just promised-

671
00:26:44,892 --> 00:26:48,702
I'd never done any proper, like
courses or any proper sailing.

672
00:26:48,702 --> 00:26:49,762
I'd only done races.

673
00:26:50,062 --> 00:26:52,111
And actually in Cape Town, with
the yacht club there, they have,

674
00:26:52,131 --> 00:26:53,372
like, a Wednesday night series.

675
00:26:53,381 --> 00:26:55,901
So I'd done a lot of like
Wednesday night racing yachting.

676
00:26:56,041 --> 00:26:57,942
Um, and then kind of day races.

677
00:26:58,332 --> 00:27:00,762
But I hadn't really, I spent
that amount of time on a boat.

678
00:27:01,522 --> 00:27:01,782
Yeah.

679
00:27:01,848 --> 00:27:03,408
so you haven't spent that much
time on the boat, but you're

680
00:27:03,408 --> 00:27:04,638
sailing across the Atlantic.

681
00:27:06,562 --> 00:27:08,972
I clearly don't do things
by half measures, do I?

682
00:27:09,292 --> 00:27:10,762
Clearly not, no, no.

683
00:27:10,772 --> 00:27:10,782
I

684
00:27:10,782 --> 00:27:14,632
have to admit, when I was younger,
my first marine job, I was a

685
00:27:14,632 --> 00:27:18,722
marine technician on a boat, on a
100-foot boat in the Gulf of Mexico.

686
00:27:18,962 --> 00:27:23,282
And one question in my phone interview
was, "Have you ever been on a

687
00:27:23,292 --> 00:27:25,322
boat before?" I said, "Yeah, yeah,
of course." Like, "Have you ever

688
00:27:25,322 --> 00:27:27,042
been overnight on a boat before?"

689
00:27:27,042 --> 00:27:30,352
I said, "No." And they're like, "Do you
get seasick?" I'm like, "I don't know.

690
00:27:30,402 --> 00:27:32,832
I don't think so." And they're
like, "Okay, you're hired." I was

691
00:27:32,842 --> 00:27:36,352
like, "Oh, okay, great." So I lived
on a boat for like eight months.

692
00:27:36,372 --> 00:27:36,942
It was awesome.

693
00:27:37,702 --> 00:27:38,072
Wow.

694
00:27:38,212 --> 00:27:41,612
I used to spend, go down to the,
um, the yacht club there because,

695
00:27:42,022 --> 00:27:45,442
had some people I knew, were big in
the sailing community down there.

696
00:27:45,442 --> 00:27:47,102
And Cape Town has a big sailing community.

697
00:27:47,102 --> 00:27:51,742
One of the, uh, women that used to work
at the museum where I was at, her husband

698
00:27:51,742 --> 00:27:54,952
was an around the world BOC solo sailor.

699
00:27:55,462 --> 00:27:55,732
Wow.

700
00:27:55,732 --> 00:27:59,972
And I tell you, those guys are a
completely different breed of people,

701
00:28:00,512 --> 00:28:03,002
sailing all the way around the world
by yourself, especially when you

702
00:28:03,002 --> 00:28:06,322
leave Cape Town, if you're sailing
to Australia across the Indian Ocean.

703
00:28:06,382 --> 00:28:07,842
that's gotta be- Yeah … one
of the most harrowing things-

704
00:28:07,842 --> 00:28:08,662
That as well … you can do.

705
00:28:09,102 --> 00:28:10,042
And, um, so- I mean, I would love to do

706
00:28:10,262 --> 00:28:12,302
something like that one
day, but I don't know.

707
00:28:12,312 --> 00:28:12,702
Well-

708
00:28:12,702 --> 00:28:13,662
I have a different life now.

709
00:28:13,662 --> 00:28:15,232
I d- I can't quite be as adventurous.

710
00:28:15,232 --> 00:28:15,852
Well, what

711
00:28:15,852 --> 00:28:18,342
I was gonna say is I always thought
it'd be kind of a cool thing.

712
00:28:18,352 --> 00:28:19,582
Like, yeah, I'll sail around the world.

713
00:28:19,582 --> 00:28:22,632
But I tell you, when you watch those
guys sail into Cape Town that have

714
00:28:22,632 --> 00:28:25,332
been out sailing around, 'cause they
used to come in there and stuff.

715
00:28:25,332 --> 00:28:28,192
And this guy, one guy who, the
husband of one of the women that

716
00:28:28,242 --> 00:28:31,142
worked at the museum there, we'd
meet these guys, and you see these

717
00:28:31,142 --> 00:28:32,552
guys come in, you're thinking like…

718
00:28:33,192 --> 00:28:36,562
And I was pretty young and adventurous,
I think like, "No, I'll just do the

719
00:28:36,562 --> 00:28:41,052
day sailing around here." And I, I love
being on boats, but man, when you hear

720
00:28:41,052 --> 00:28:45,482
these stories, these guys having to drop
down the Southern Ocean to catch the

721
00:28:45,642 --> 00:28:50,892
currents to get to like Tasmania or some
place, or Perth, man, it's like… and

722
00:28:50,892 --> 00:28:54,122
those guys used to sail in there, 'cause
it's a big- Yeah … as you probably

723
00:28:54,122 --> 00:28:55,222
as you know, it's a big thing there.

724
00:28:55,222 --> 00:28:55,852
So yeah.

725
00:28:55,852 --> 00:29:00,802
It's, um my hat's off to you to sailing
that thing- Yeah … on, being out.

726
00:29:00,802 --> 00:29:01,972
Especially you didn't even know, like-

727
00:29:01,972 --> 00:29:02,022
I learnt a lot.

728
00:29:02,022 --> 00:29:03,382
I learnt a lot about myself.

729
00:29:04,082 --> 00:29:04,452
Yeah.

730
00:29:04,452 --> 00:29:05,902
Oh, I could totally believe it.

731
00:29:05,902 --> 00:29:08,722
I mean, it's, it's, uh … Well, I
used to go out on the Africana there,

732
00:29:08,722 --> 00:29:12,462
like, we'd go out for, like, 30,
40 days at a time, like Andrew did.

733
00:29:12,482 --> 00:29:15,952
Like, I loved it I always thought, like,
a good business to have is, like, you take

734
00:29:15,952 --> 00:29:17,882
couples out, kind of a premarital thing.

735
00:29:17,882 --> 00:29:20,117
Like, take them out for
three weeks because you- Put

736
00:29:20,117 --> 00:29:20,932
them, put them on a boat

737
00:29:20,992 --> 00:29:24,102
put them on a boat, 'cause you hear, you
al- Everybody talks about week three.

738
00:29:24,542 --> 00:29:24,652
Yeah.

739
00:29:24,652 --> 00:29:27,452
And, like, the first week or two
it's okay, but about that third

740
00:29:27,452 --> 00:29:31,679
week you're either gonna get along
great and got a good future, or

741
00:29:31,679 --> 00:29:36,319
it's like, "Get the fuck out of my
life." It's gonna be like… Yeah.

742
00:29:36,329 --> 00:29:38,922
So, um, anyway, I thought
that'd be kind of a good,

743
00:29:38,922 --> 00:29:40,996
Well, I think also they should
do field work, because it's

744
00:29:40,996 --> 00:29:42,116
not just being on the boat.

745
00:29:42,166 --> 00:29:45,226
It's- Well, no … even if you do
fieldwork, as, arduous as it can be-

746
00:29:46,046 --> 00:29:49,196
But, yeah … doing the field work is,
on the boat can be even, even worse- No.

747
00:29:49,466 --> 00:29:49,786
Oh, yeah.

748
00:29:49,786 --> 00:29:49,956
No,

749
00:29:49,956 --> 00:29:50,516
the- … just when things go wrong

750
00:29:50,926 --> 00:29:51,116
Oh, yeah.

751
00:29:51,116 --> 00:29:54,276
No, we'd start, like, 6:00 in the
morning, go to, like, 6:00, 8:00 at night.

752
00:29:54,336 --> 00:29:55,686
That's just the stuff you had to do.

753
00:29:55,686 --> 00:29:57,756
And then, so no- Yeah you're working.

754
00:29:57,756 --> 00:30:00,176
I mean, I both, you guys spent
time at sea, both, obviously.

755
00:30:00,366 --> 00:30:01,716
You're working pretty much on a boat.

756
00:30:01,716 --> 00:30:03,826
We're not doing, like, the
Carnival Cruise Lines or something.

757
00:30:03,826 --> 00:30:04,476
This is like- Right.

758
00:30:04,476 --> 00:30:04,706
Yeah

759
00:30:05,026 --> 00:30:06,476
…
you're doing something all day long.

760
00:30:06,796 --> 00:30:07,856
um, so okay.

761
00:30:07,856 --> 00:30:09,966
So y- you've sailed across the Atlantic.

762
00:30:09,976 --> 00:30:13,466
You've been to South Africa
and Madagascar and Canada.

763
00:30:13,466 --> 00:30:18,306
And so you came back for your job
after your sailing adventure, and-

764
00:30:19,736 --> 00:30:19,766
What

765
00:30:19,766 --> 00:30:21,116
fun stuff did you do now?

766
00:30:21,896 --> 00:30:24,736
So then, in the life of Clova.

767
00:30:25,166 --> 00:30:28,526
Um- Yeah … then I was working
for an environmental consulting

768
00:30:28,526 --> 00:30:30,606
company that had a marine focus.

769
00:30:30,636 --> 00:30:35,986
And, um, I actually, because of my
invasive species kind of experience,

770
00:30:36,026 --> 00:30:41,006
I was actually brought on to work,
testing a ballast water treatment system.

771
00:30:41,756 --> 00:30:43,756
Well, it was the first in South
Africa, yeah, it was kind of

772
00:30:44,356 --> 00:30:47,536
going through the IMO, um,
International Maritime Organization.

773
00:30:47,556 --> 00:30:50,586
and they were testing this
system to be rolled for ships.

774
00:30:50,756 --> 00:30:54,766
It was quite interesting designing
experiments and testing how it worked.

775
00:30:54,796 --> 00:30:59,416
Um, and then I kind of just got into
a lot… So there was, uh, there were

776
00:30:59,436 --> 00:31:03,426
several other projects, mostly diving
related, where we'd, I don't know, we

777
00:31:03,426 --> 00:31:04,946
went to Mauritius on a dive project.

778
00:31:04,956 --> 00:31:08,456
Also surveying a lot of the ports
baseline surveys, especially South

779
00:31:08,456 --> 00:31:11,866
Africa, looking for, um, invasive species.

780
00:31:12,306 --> 00:31:15,036
So documenting what we were
finding so that they could look

781
00:31:15,036 --> 00:31:16,516
and see how that changed over time.

782
00:31:16,666 --> 00:31:18,966
but then just other
also ecological surveys.

783
00:31:18,996 --> 00:31:22,626
Um, that was about another
two and a half years there.

784
00:31:22,716 --> 00:31:25,786
and then I just kind of decided I wanted
to actually go back and study some more.

785
00:31:25,786 --> 00:31:30,296
So then that's when I started looking
at my PhD, um, at Stellenbosch.

786
00:31:30,356 --> 00:31:33,896
and that's kind of, again, because
I'd got into the invasive species

787
00:31:33,916 --> 00:31:38,546
field, but sticking with the marine
side of things, I then decided to do

788
00:31:38,546 --> 00:31:44,016
a, a very applied PhD looking at, um,
the European shore crab, which is an

789
00:31:44,016 --> 00:31:45,766
invasive species here in South Africa.

790
00:31:46,276 --> 00:31:46,836
Mm-hmm.

791
00:31:46,846 --> 00:31:50,796
Um, and it's invasive across many parts
of the world, including States and Canada.

792
00:31:51,206 --> 00:31:55,626
and then, yeah, kind of looking at, it
was listed as one of the species that

793
00:31:55,706 --> 00:32:00,238
the South African government needed
to, um- well, was looking to manage.

794
00:32:00,248 --> 00:32:04,148
Um, and so my PhD was actually
funded by the South African

795
00:32:04,148 --> 00:32:05,448
government to kind of- Mm

796
00:32:05,458 --> 00:32:07,378
find out whether it was
possible to manage it.

797
00:32:07,698 --> 00:32:11,122
So looking at its current distribution,
um, whether it was having any impacts

798
00:32:11,392 --> 00:32:13,292
both up and down the, food chain.

799
00:32:13,952 --> 00:32:16,532
Um, and then looking at management
options for it, whether it

800
00:32:16,532 --> 00:32:18,882
would be possible to, eradicate.

801
00:32:19,162 --> 00:32:23,022
So yeah, I actually had a team of,
had a team of 10 people working

802
00:32:23,022 --> 00:32:27,072
for me full-time for a year,
catching crabs every day Mm-hmm

803
00:32:27,152 --> 00:32:31,352
in the harbors, um, in Cape
Town, and, different harbors.

804
00:32:31,392 --> 00:32:33,872
But we actually started with the
smaller harbor where the population

805
00:32:33,872 --> 00:32:36,032
was only meant to be 6,000.

806
00:32:36,042 --> 00:32:42,058
the latest population census had brought
it up as 6,000, but we took out 36,000 and

807
00:32:42,058 --> 00:32:43,938
the numbers were not getting much less.

808
00:32:43,938 --> 00:32:45,828
We never hit a day where
we caught zero crabs.

809
00:32:46,898 --> 00:32:47,108
Mm-hmm.

810
00:32:47,138 --> 00:32:50,438
So yeah, it was basically the
conclusion of that was that it wasn't

811
00:32:50,438 --> 00:32:51,768
possible, Yeah … to manage it.

812
00:32:51,908 --> 00:32:53,448
Um, so it's been, yeah.

813
00:32:53,588 --> 00:32:55,578
and that fed straight
into the legislation.

814
00:32:55,658 --> 00:32:58,818
Mm-hmm … so yeah, it felt
like very useful, useful

815
00:32:58,818 --> 00:33:00,448
research, to be contributing to.

816
00:33:00,858 --> 00:33:02,772
You went to Stellenbosch
versus University of Cape Town.

817
00:33:02,772 --> 00:33:05,552
Do they have a program more
geared towards that, education?

818
00:33:05,552 --> 00:33:07,642
So they had a, a center
of excellence at the time.

819
00:33:07,652 --> 00:33:11,312
I think it's been changed slightly now,
but it was in the CIB, the Center for

820
00:33:11,312 --> 00:33:15,395
Invasion Biology, there, which was part
of the, Botany and Zoology department.

821
00:33:15,405 --> 00:33:18,875
Um, but yeah, it was a very
good, department there.

822
00:33:18,875 --> 00:33:21,695
And that's actually where
the links to, um, SIAB, were.

823
00:33:21,825 --> 00:33:24,355
For my postdoc afterwards, I
worked with Olaf, from SIAB.

824
00:33:24,355 --> 00:33:24,735
Oh, yeah.

825
00:33:25,055 --> 00:33:27,195
Yep … because he had the
invasive links there as well.

826
00:33:27,745 --> 00:33:28,085
Yeah.

827
00:33:28,085 --> 00:33:28,485
Okay.

828
00:33:28,485 --> 00:33:28,820
That's right.

829
00:33:28,820 --> 00:33:28,987
Okay.

830
00:33:28,987 --> 00:33:31,725
I, I was kinda cur- I was gonna ask my
next question, how'd you get connected

831
00:33:31,725 --> 00:33:33,475
with SIAB over there, so, okay.

832
00:33:33,485 --> 00:33:33,925
Mm.

833
00:33:33,995 --> 00:33:34,465
Oh, that's cool.

834
00:33:34,655 --> 00:33:38,418
So on this whole journey, other than
your early on, you really haven't

835
00:33:38,418 --> 00:33:41,848
had anything to do with sharks most
of the journey other than just like

836
00:33:41,848 --> 00:33:43,458
maybe as a side passion or something?

837
00:33:44,468 --> 00:33:48,542
Yeah, I mean, it kind of was like that,
but it was also, it had a strong marine

838
00:33:48,542 --> 00:33:51,675
focus in South Africa, and I knew what
was there and what shouldn't be there.

839
00:33:51,995 --> 00:33:55,675
and also then just building the
very kind of applied and the

840
00:33:55,675 --> 00:33:57,105
science communication skills.

841
00:33:57,135 --> 00:33:59,255
Um, I think, yeah.

842
00:33:59,325 --> 00:34:02,835
I did have a moment of panic when I
heard about the job coming up, at the

843
00:34:02,905 --> 00:34:07,925
Shark Centre and thought, "Oh, am I
a shark expert really, um, compared

844
00:34:08,065 --> 00:34:12,555
to everyone else?" Um, but yeah, it
seemed like it's worked in my favor.

845
00:34:13,145 --> 00:34:13,325
So,

846
00:34:13,325 --> 00:34:13,665
so,

847
00:34:13,665 --> 00:34:14,045
so- The other

848
00:34:14,045 --> 00:34:14,375
skills that

849
00:34:15,075 --> 00:34:18,655
What was, kind of prompted you to want to
apply for the job at Save Our Seas there?

850
00:34:20,045 --> 00:34:22,975
So actually, interestingly, I
applied for a different role.

851
00:34:23,025 --> 00:34:26,125
Um, they actually had an education
coordinator post come up.

852
00:34:26,135 --> 00:34:26,825
I didn't get that.

853
00:34:26,835 --> 00:34:31,455
Um, and so that kind of made
me question things a little

854
00:34:31,455 --> 00:34:32,855
bit about what I wanted to do.

855
00:34:32,875 --> 00:34:38,275
Um, but I mean, also now looking back at
who got the role, it was the right person.

856
00:34:38,315 --> 00:34:40,015
It definitely was the
right person for the role.

857
00:34:40,235 --> 00:34:47,405
but then, like six months later, the
director, resigned and she, she said to

858
00:34:47,405 --> 00:34:51,125
me, "Are you interested?" and she said
then at that point that I was actually--

859
00:34:51,205 --> 00:34:54,845
she had thought that I was too senior
for that role as well, and I probably

860
00:34:54,845 --> 00:34:56,675
would've lost interest after a while.

861
00:34:56,685 --> 00:34:57,355
Um- So yeah.

862
00:34:57,365 --> 00:35:00,085
Then-- and then I went
into the director role.

863
00:35:00,105 --> 00:35:04,745
So- Okay … yeah, it's been a, it was
kind of a, bit of a mixture of kind of

864
00:35:04,865 --> 00:35:09,265
the feelings, managing rejection and
then, seeing it in a different light.

865
00:35:09,265 --> 00:35:09,495
So

866
00:35:10,332 --> 00:35:13,472
Was Michael Scholl still there when
you went in there, or was it, or James

867
00:35:13,522 --> 00:35:13,662
taking over after?

868
00:35:13,742 --> 00:35:15,452
He, he was for a little bit, yeah.

869
00:35:15,452 --> 00:35:15,462
Okay.

870
00:35:15,462 --> 00:35:18,342
So he was there for the… He was…
So also, obviously he knew me, um,

871
00:35:18,812 --> 00:35:20,342
which also- Yeah … which also helped.

872
00:35:20,352 --> 00:35:25,522
Um- Right … so he, he was
there for, I started in 2019.

873
00:35:25,522 --> 00:35:27,452
I think he left at the end of 2019.

874
00:35:27,572 --> 00:35:27,852
Yeah.

875
00:35:27,922 --> 00:35:28,232
Okay.

876
00:35:28,742 --> 00:35:28,832
Okay.

877
00:35:28,832 --> 00:35:29,012
Yeah.

878
00:35:29,012 --> 00:35:30,392
I was actually, I was actually
four months pregnant with my

879
00:35:30,442 --> 00:35:32,132
second child, when I started.

880
00:35:32,182 --> 00:35:33,022
Which they obviously knew about.

881
00:35:33,022 --> 00:35:33,982
It wasn't a surprise.

882
00:35:33,982 --> 00:35:34,042
Of course.

883
00:35:34,612 --> 00:35:34,912
Right.

884
00:35:35,242 --> 00:35:35,302
Of course.

885
00:35:35,302 --> 00:35:35,422
Okay.

886
00:35:35,682 --> 00:35:35,802
Yeah.

887
00:35:35,982 --> 00:35:36,232
Yeah.

888
00:35:36,242 --> 00:35:38,862
Um, but yeah, I was actually on m-
then, so then I started, and I was

889
00:35:38,862 --> 00:35:42,152
only there for five months, and then
I took six months maternity leave.

890
00:35:42,162 --> 00:35:45,982
Um, and then by the time, actually,
by the time I came back, um,

891
00:35:45,982 --> 00:35:47,452
Michael Scholl had already left.

892
00:35:47,582 --> 00:35:49,102
Um, so I was- Okay … only
actually working with him

893
00:35:49,152 --> 00:35:50,262
for five months, um, yeah.

894
00:35:50,272 --> 00:35:54,722
so all this other stuff you had
going on, PhDs and consulting and

895
00:35:54,962 --> 00:35:58,062
working on jobs, you, somewhere along
the line you had your first child.

896
00:35:58,492 --> 00:36:00,482
And then you're pregnant
with your second one now.

897
00:36:00,482 --> 00:36:03,162
You kinda left out what seemed
like a little bigger deal than you-

898
00:36:03,202 --> 00:36:03,642
Which was my life.

899
00:36:04,682 --> 00:36:04,822
Yes.

900
00:36:06,342 --> 00:36:09,972
Yeah, I actually, I actually fell pregnant
with the first during my PhD, which-

901
00:36:09,972 --> 00:36:13,722
Okay … wasn't meant to happen, but, um,
life has a funny way of going sometimes.

902
00:36:13,842 --> 00:36:18,892
Um, so yeah, I think I finished my, handed
my PhD in when she was nine months old.

903
00:36:19,312 --> 00:36:22,522
She was just on the verge of crawling,
and I was kind of thinking, "Just

904
00:36:22,522 --> 00:36:27,412
stay in one place a little bit longer.
Don't move. I just need to finish

905
00:36:27,412 --> 00:36:30,962
this and get this PhD in before
you, you get really mobile." Yeah.

906
00:36:31,962 --> 00:36:32,292
Yeah.

907
00:36:32,502 --> 00:36:33,872
Um, so yeah.

908
00:36:34,542 --> 00:36:37,432
Well, we just had, uh, Chris Dudgeon
on there, and she was a similar thing.

909
00:36:37,432 --> 00:36:41,232
She had her, I think her first,
first when she was finishing her

910
00:36:41,232 --> 00:36:44,352
PhD as well, and she talked a little
about… becoming a mom, like trying

911
00:36:44,352 --> 00:36:48,342
to finish up your PhD and, and all
that stuff, which is, um, I can't even-

912
00:36:48,342 --> 00:36:51,012
Which is like, let's be honest,
it's insane because like a

913
00:36:51,022 --> 00:36:52,412
PhD, I've never done one.

914
00:36:52,602 --> 00:36:54,962
You guys obviously have done
one, but from what I've heard,

915
00:36:54,962 --> 00:36:56,632
it's like a job and a half.

916
00:36:56,642 --> 00:36:56,662
Yeah.

917
00:36:57,032 --> 00:37:01,752
And then you have this little human
inside you that is growing and

918
00:37:01,752 --> 00:37:04,042
changing everything in your body.

919
00:37:04,672 --> 00:37:07,672
as someone who watched my wife go
through two births, like it's gotta

920
00:37:07,672 --> 00:37:13,342
be a, a, an ex- I say extra challenge,
but Did it play a big role in how you

921
00:37:13,342 --> 00:37:17,952
finished your PhD? Or, or how did you…
I guess the question, how were you able

922
00:37:17,952 --> 00:37:20,832
to manage doing both at the same time?

923
00:37:20,842 --> 00:37:23,042
Because obviously, you know,
you're doing it because you gotta

924
00:37:23,042 --> 00:37:26,468
do it, but like how did you get
through it I guess is the question.

925
00:37:27,434 --> 00:37:28,044
I don't really know.

926
00:37:28,044 --> 00:37:29,424
Maybe that's my sense of adventure.

927
00:37:29,444 --> 00:37:33,314
Maybe that was my That was,
that was where it came in again.

928
00:37:33,714 --> 00:37:34,264
I was like-

929
00:37:34,264 --> 00:37:34,664
Yeah

930
00:37:34,664 --> 00:37:36,694
…
let's just try this next adventure.

931
00:37:37,244 --> 00:37:37,574
Right.

932
00:37:39,194 --> 00:37:41,144
They're not sailing the Atlantic
again, so what the heck?

933
00:37:41,154 --> 00:37:41,464
Right.

934
00:37:41,954 --> 00:37:42,404
Yeah.

935
00:37:42,404 --> 00:37:45,594
Scottish people also get the reputation
of being quite stubborn at times,

936
00:37:45,604 --> 00:37:47,104
which helps with determination.

937
00:37:47,514 --> 00:37:50,854
Um- So, maybe there was an
element of that in there.

938
00:37:51,084 --> 00:37:55,314
Um, I did also have a very supportive
husband once she was born, then that

939
00:37:55,384 --> 00:37:59,954
was also very, very helpful, because,
yeah, I mean, I remember I had a standing

940
00:37:59,954 --> 00:38:04,624
desk, and I would stand with her in the
carrier, and I'd be typing at, like, 3:00

941
00:38:04,624 --> 00:38:06,254
in the morning when she wasn't sleeping.

942
00:38:06,954 --> 00:38:09,634
Standing, writing up,
trying to finish everything.

943
00:38:09,734 --> 00:38:11,564
but yeah, you do it because
you don't really have a choice.

944
00:38:12,254 --> 00:38:12,624
Yeah.

945
00:38:12,674 --> 00:38:13,064
Yeah.

946
00:38:13,084 --> 00:38:13,614
Yeah.

947
00:38:13,654 --> 00:38:14,584
You- Yeah you just get on.

948
00:38:14,584 --> 00:38:18,439
I knew I had to finish 'cause I also
didn't want to, I mean, I still was, I was

949
00:38:18,439 --> 00:38:22,637
trying to finish up my lab work when I was
still pregnant, and 'cause I also had a

950
00:38:22,637 --> 00:38:25,557
whole genetic component to the, um- Mm-hmm

951
00:38:25,557 --> 00:38:30,667
to my PhD. But, um, I was trying to finish
that up and to be done with that so that

952
00:38:30,667 --> 00:38:32,547
I could just do the writeup afterwards.

953
00:38:32,587 --> 00:38:34,123
But it was, yeah, it was tough.

954
00:38:34,123 --> 00:38:35,133
Yeah.

955
00:38:35,133 --> 00:38:35,483
Yeah.

956
00:38:35,483 --> 00:38:39,343
And look, I, to be honest, in
retrospect, I am kind of a little

957
00:38:39,343 --> 00:38:43,213
bit sad that I did it that way, um,
because I did miss out on quite a

958
00:38:43,213 --> 00:38:45,183
few special times at the beginning.

959
00:38:45,263 --> 00:38:45,643
Right.

960
00:38:45,653 --> 00:38:46,313
Um- Gotcha.

961
00:38:46,323 --> 00:38:48,093
Like, I did have to- Understand … go
through to the university on the

962
00:38:48,093 --> 00:38:49,843
weekend when my husband wasn't working.

963
00:38:50,393 --> 00:38:55,303
I would go through to uni, and, um, so
I did miss out on some special times,

964
00:38:55,383 --> 00:38:55,823
Yeah

965
00:38:55,923 --> 00:38:59,783
…
which, yeah, there's nothing I can
do about that now- Yeah … but, make

966
00:38:59,783 --> 00:39:01,453
more special memories going forward-

967
00:39:01,463 --> 00:39:01,873
Yeah

968
00:39:01,873 --> 00:39:02,083
I suppose.

969
00:39:02,083 --> 00:39:03,023
Yeah, it's going forward.

970
00:39:03,023 --> 00:39:06,177
Of course, I was there in Cape Town
at the museum there writing up my

971
00:39:06,187 --> 00:39:08,857
PhD, whatever, a long time ago.

972
00:39:09,227 --> 00:39:13,620
So I, I can't even imagine trying to, you
know, I've talked to n- women, like we had

973
00:39:13,620 --> 00:39:18,220
you, we had Chris Dudgeon on recently and
we've had others that just, I don't, my

974
00:39:18,220 --> 00:39:22,400
hat's off to you how you're able to pull
that off, 'cause it's a ton of work to do.

975
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,330
And yeah, anyway, so well,
congratulations, you got through that.

976
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,160
Then you got on Oar To Save Our Seas.

977
00:39:28,671 --> 00:39:29,661
Do you have two kids now?

978
00:39:29,691 --> 00:39:30,171
Is it two?

979
00:39:30,371 --> 00:39:31,141
Two girls, yeah.

980
00:39:31,241 --> 00:39:31,391
Two

981
00:39:31,391 --> 00:39:31,421
girls.

982
00:39:31,421 --> 00:39:31,741
Two girls.

983
00:39:31,791 --> 00:39:32,111
Okay.

984
00:39:32,111 --> 00:39:32,121
A

985
00:39:32,121 --> 00:39:33,461
seven-year-old and a nine-year-old.

986
00:39:34,001 --> 00:39:34,491
Okay.

987
00:39:34,511 --> 00:39:34,781
Okay.

988
00:39:34,791 --> 00:39:36,961
Yeah They kind of sound like they're
getting to a fun age now where

989
00:39:36,961 --> 00:39:41,201
you can have them, take them out,
um, show them what mommy does.

990
00:39:41,201 --> 00:39:41,891
Yeah.

991
00:39:41,891 --> 00:39:42,611
Yeah.

992
00:39:42,661 --> 00:39:43,951
I must say it's really special.

993
00:39:43,951 --> 00:39:46,201
Like, I mean, now they're kind
of… They're at the age when

994
00:39:46,201 --> 00:39:47,291
they're comfortable in the water.

995
00:39:47,351 --> 00:39:49,421
We can take them, um, into the water.

996
00:39:49,421 --> 00:39:52,361
We went snorkeling at Cape Point the
other day, um- Cool … well, it's

997
00:39:52,361 --> 00:39:56,791
summer now, and, um, yeah, took them to
see some of the spotted gully sharks.

998
00:39:57,001 --> 00:39:59,381
And so yeah- Wow … those kind
of things are really special

999
00:39:59,491 --> 00:40:00,941
to share with your offspring.

1000
00:40:01,841 --> 00:40:02,141
Yeah.

1001
00:40:02,141 --> 00:40:05,521
So it's like a different, yeah, it's
a very different- Yeah … experience.

1002
00:40:06,081 --> 00:40:08,511
I gotta bring up this before we get,
before, let the show gets away from us.

1003
00:40:08,521 --> 00:40:10,461
But the, um, brass bell.

1004
00:40:10,781 --> 00:40:12,651
You ever happen to cruise?

1005
00:40:12,681 --> 00:40:13,671
'Cause the brass bell is like- What

1006
00:40:13,671 --> 00:40:14,381
is the brass bell?

1007
00:40:14,871 --> 00:40:17,743
My God You wanna explain
it or do you want me to?

1008
00:40:17,893 --> 00:40:20,593
It's so funny, Dave, because I think
we've talked about this in person

1009
00:40:20,603 --> 00:40:23,853
before, and I don't know whether
you remember my response to you.

1010
00:40:23,873 --> 00:40:25,923
So the Brass Bell's a pub in, um- Okay.

1011
00:40:25,933 --> 00:40:28,043
Yes … in Kalk Bay, which is
close to where my office is.

1012
00:40:28,503 --> 00:40:29,983
but I'm not a fan of the Brass Bell.

1013
00:40:29,983 --> 00:40:30,593
Sorry, Dave.

1014
00:40:30,633 --> 00:40:31,103
You're not?

1015
00:40:31,693 --> 00:40:31,923
Ah.

1016
00:40:31,963 --> 00:40:32,323
Well, it's-

1017
00:40:32,403 --> 00:40:33,403
And it's actually- … it's
been a long time … a point of

1018
00:40:33,403 --> 00:40:36,353
contention between my husband and
I, because he loves the Brass Bell.

1019
00:40:36,573 --> 00:40:37,143
Oh, okay.

1020
00:40:37,143 --> 00:40:39,263
Um, and he always wants to go
to the Brass Bell, and I never

1021
00:40:39,263 --> 00:40:40,393
want to go to the Brass Bell.

1022
00:40:40,933 --> 00:40:41,073
Oh.

1023
00:40:41,073 --> 00:40:44,433
I have a thing about rats, and it's in
the middle of the harbor, and for me-

1024
00:40:44,443 --> 00:40:46,593
Yeah … there's, like, I've seen too
many rats there- That, that- … and

1025
00:40:46,593 --> 00:40:48,933
it's an eating place, and it's just, ugh.

1026
00:40:48,983 --> 00:40:49,553
I don't know.

1027
00:40:49,553 --> 00:40:50,663
See, that's changed a lot.

1028
00:40:50,853 --> 00:40:55,193
Now, I was there, like, back in the late
'80s, early '90s when I was going there,

1029
00:40:55,193 --> 00:40:56,813
and it was definitely a place to go.

1030
00:40:57,193 --> 00:41:00,663
I've been to the center there at,
uh, at Kalk, the Save Our Sea Center,

1031
00:41:00,663 --> 00:41:01,913
but it was before you were there.

1032
00:41:02,183 --> 00:41:04,463
And that's why f- remember, a
couple times we walked across.

1033
00:41:04,493 --> 00:41:06,903
Well, this was when Leonard
Compagno was still there, showing

1034
00:41:06,903 --> 00:41:09,883
up there, and we'd go across and s-
and that, and ha- the Brass Bell.

1035
00:41:09,883 --> 00:41:13,303
But when I was a graduate student back
in the late '80s, that was the place to

1036
00:41:13,303 --> 00:41:14,970
go if you wanted to have a good time.

1037
00:41:14,970 --> 00:41:16,977
And you go out on the
weekends, you sit outside.

1038
00:41:17,027 --> 00:41:18,087
They'd play some music.

1039
00:41:18,087 --> 00:41:20,307
They have these amazing seafood buffets.

1040
00:41:20,837 --> 00:41:25,153
And, um, Paul Calley and I were
like, we had our own special corner

1041
00:41:25,203 --> 00:41:26,483
they'd literally had set up for us.

1042
00:41:26,483 --> 00:41:29,013
And the best part is that train pulls up
right in front of the place- It is … so

1043
00:41:29,013 --> 00:41:31,073
you can just, you just hop on the train.

1044
00:41:31,073 --> 00:41:32,883
Just make sure you get
off at the right stop.

1045
00:41:33,333 --> 00:41:36,513
Somewhere, and I was living down
in Rondebosch at the time, and so

1046
00:41:36,513 --> 00:41:38,923
as long as I, as long as I got off
at the right stop, we're all good.

1047
00:41:39,023 --> 00:41:39,513
anyway,

1048
00:41:39,713 --> 00:41:40,423
It is a beautiful

1049
00:41:40,443 --> 00:41:40,563
part.

1050
00:41:40,563 --> 00:41:42,153
It's- It's a, in a beautiful location.

1051
00:41:42,593 --> 00:41:44,153
I don't remember the rats
running around, though.

1052
00:41:44,163 --> 00:41:46,538
That was a, a th- Now that you've
mentioned that, I remember you,

1053
00:41:46,538 --> 00:41:47,923
but I don't remember the rats.

1054
00:41:47,923 --> 00:41:51,033
But, maybe next time I'm out that
way to the center, maybe if your

1055
00:41:51,033 --> 00:41:53,933
husband comes by, him and I can go
over and- You guys can go together

1056
00:41:53,933 --> 00:41:54,533
enjoy a, enjoy a couple pints.

1057
00:41:55,173 --> 00:41:57,773
Oh my God, I'm sure we'd have
a few, we'd have a few times,

1058
00:41:57,773 --> 00:41:58,953
like, old memories and stuff.

1059
00:41:58,973 --> 00:42:00,413
Anyway, digressing.

1060
00:42:00,413 --> 00:42:02,493
But as everybody knows, I have
such a good time talking with South

1061
00:42:02,493 --> 00:42:05,883
Afric- … people in South Africa,
it s- just gets me going and stuff.

1062
00:42:05,883 --> 00:42:06,213
So,

1063
00:42:06,693 --> 00:42:09,397
Yeah, I have a question just
about, you being the director,

1064
00:42:09,447 --> 00:42:11,007
of education at, Save Our Seas.

1065
00:42:11,407 --> 00:42:14,687
When you first started, I think
it was there a team of… You can

1066
00:42:14,687 --> 00:42:16,537
correct me if I'm wrong, but I
believe it was, like, a team of six,

1067
00:42:16,537 --> 00:42:17,800
and now it's, like, a bigger team.

1068
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,710
So I think it's at 14 or 15, uh- Mm

1069
00:42:19,720 --> 00:42:20,340
people now.

1070
00:42:20,350 --> 00:42:20,370
Yeah.

1071
00:42:20,750 --> 00:42:23,230
like, what did you learn
from building that team?

1072
00:42:23,290 --> 00:42:28,570
and it seems like there's a lot of
different levels to the education, right?

1073
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,590
Mm. There's, there's from, like,
the high school, primary level.

1074
00:42:32,310 --> 00:42:36,890
How has that program grown along with
the team, and how did Save Our Seas

1075
00:42:36,890 --> 00:42:41,700
decide to go the route it did with the
different scales of, educating the public?

1076
00:42:43,170 --> 00:42:44,630
Yo, that's a good question as well.

1077
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,390
so I think it kind of just
happened a bit organically.

1078
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:47,610
Mm-hmm.

1079
00:42:47,790 --> 00:42:52,420
It wasn't necessarily intentional
to grow the team that size.

1080
00:42:54,300 --> 00:42:57,680
Um, I mean, I think James Lee, the
CEO of the foundation, is always

1081
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,690
a little bit, shocked whenever
the organogram's put up there.

1082
00:43:00,700 --> 00:43:03,490
The Shark Center, the Shark
Education Center team is, like,

1083
00:43:03,490 --> 00:43:06,580
massive, and the other centers
are quite small in comparison.

1084
00:43:07,190 --> 00:43:11,230
but I think it just kind of happened, like
it kind of… So we, we also have a, like

1085
00:43:11,230 --> 00:43:15,340
the facility itself, so we've actually
got a facilities and administrative team,

1086
00:43:15,730 --> 00:43:17,280
um, and then we've got the education team.

1087
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,770
Obviously, operationally, most of our
programs are educational programs,

1088
00:43:21,140 --> 00:43:24,660
but we also have the facilities team
that supports all those, programs,

1089
00:43:24,660 --> 00:43:27,870
as well as we've got the digital
engagement side, and we've also

1090
00:43:27,870 --> 00:43:29,310
got a nutrition program as well.

1091
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:34,370
Um, so because we feed the school learners
and the community groups that come to us.

1092
00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:37,910
It kind of happened that we actually had
a big restructure at the end of last year.

1093
00:43:38,017 --> 00:43:42,017
We actually just had educators and
different levels of educators before,

1094
00:43:42,017 --> 00:43:44,837
but then we split them up into the
different kind of portfolios or

1095
00:43:44,837 --> 00:43:47,037
programs, towards the end of last year.

1096
00:43:47,387 --> 00:43:50,187
And one of the kind of things
that actually, more recent change,

1097
00:43:50,187 --> 00:43:53,637
which grew it even more, was that
we've added a research arm to it

1098
00:43:53,647 --> 00:43:56,707
now- Cool … Historically it was
actually called the Shark Center.

1099
00:43:56,757 --> 00:44:00,973
It opened in 2008, um, because in
2028- So it's a physical building

1100
00:44:00,973 --> 00:44:01,673
it's our 20th anniversary.

1101
00:44:01,763 --> 00:44:02,043
Yeah.

1102
00:44:02,043 --> 00:44:03,763
It was actually a research
center to start with.

1103
00:44:03,823 --> 00:44:05,703
Okay … and then the research fell away.

1104
00:44:05,763 --> 00:44:08,563
Uh, so it was just called the Shark
Center, and then it became the

1105
00:44:08,563 --> 00:44:10,713
Shark Education Center in 2012.

1106
00:44:10,983 --> 00:44:13,723
And then from that, it's kind
of been mostly education.

1107
00:44:14,253 --> 00:44:17,343
But now we're kind of building back
into the research side of things, but

1108
00:44:17,343 --> 00:44:21,623
mostly on the social science research
side of things, and looking at ocean

1109
00:44:21,623 --> 00:44:26,543
connections and heritage and how those
all play a role in marine education.

1110
00:44:27,943 --> 00:44:28,283
Okay.

1111
00:44:28,393 --> 00:44:29,243
Okay, cool.

1112
00:44:29,283 --> 00:44:30,253
Well, that's really interesting.

1113
00:44:30,253 --> 00:44:32,493
So these are kind of your plans
right now for your future?

1114
00:44:32,493 --> 00:44:35,033
where you're looking to take
Sea the Centre head towards?

1115
00:44:35,853 --> 00:44:37,713
I mean, we're busy with
the strategy at the moment.

1116
00:44:38,503 --> 00:44:41,083
Um- Okay … this is our time of
year where we're always working

1117
00:44:41,083 --> 00:44:42,583
on strategy for the next year.

1118
00:44:42,683 --> 00:44:45,533
so yeah, I think really it's to
grow that research kind of hub.

1119
00:44:45,543 --> 00:44:48,983
We're wanting to grow this research
hub where we-- because we have so many,

1120
00:44:49,423 --> 00:44:53,503
school groups that come to us and so
many, opportunities for learning about

1121
00:44:53,673 --> 00:44:59,743
the role that, um, ocean connections
can have, in education and, um, how

1122
00:44:59,803 --> 00:45:01,553
positive ocean connections can be.

1123
00:45:01,613 --> 00:45:05,473
I think there's a lot of interest from
academic institutions, to work with us.

1124
00:45:05,483 --> 00:45:05,623
Mm-hmm.

1125
00:45:05,633 --> 00:45:08,893
So yeah, we've kind of had quite a
lot of requests that's been building

1126
00:45:08,893 --> 00:45:11,113
over the years, but we kind of
are really kind of establishing

1127
00:45:11,113 --> 00:45:12,553
this research hub at the moment.

1128
00:45:12,583 --> 00:45:15,223
Um- Okay … and that's,
yeah, it's very exciting.

1129
00:45:15,330 --> 00:45:19,350
We started a really exciting project
with Wits University and the Origin

1130
00:45:19,350 --> 00:45:21,890
Centre, , towards the end of last
year, beginning of this year,

1131
00:45:22,300 --> 00:45:25,060
looking at, um, grade three learners.

1132
00:45:25,070 --> 00:45:28,110
So they're probably, like, seven
or eight, maybe eight years old.

1133
00:45:28,570 --> 00:45:31,630
Um, and looking at how connected
they are to the ocean before

1134
00:45:31,630 --> 00:45:34,390
they come to us, and then kind of
following them on their journey.

1135
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:38,600
Um, and also working with the teachers
and looking at their ocean connections

1136
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:40,600
and how it plays a role in their teaching.

1137
00:45:41,090 --> 00:45:43,590
so yeah, there's some really
exciting, exciting work

1138
00:45:43,610 --> 00:45:44,860
that's kind of on the horizon.

1139
00:45:45,290 --> 00:45:45,490
Neat.

1140
00:45:45,500 --> 00:45:46,040
It's really cool.

1141
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,970
Like, uh, when, when you do this type
of research too, obviously, like, you

1142
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:53,030
guys have a phenomenal, communications
team, and I feel like education and

1143
00:45:53,030 --> 00:45:55,480
communications are very closely related.

1144
00:45:55,900 --> 00:46:01,520
Uh, is there research going on with how
to communicate to different audiences

1145
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,140
or any research at all in line with
the education and communication team?

1146
00:46:06,502 --> 00:46:08,092
They actually use our offices.

1147
00:46:08,112 --> 00:46:10,812
Um- Right … so they have a office
space in our building, but they

1148
00:46:10,812 --> 00:46:12,542
actually report directly to HQ.

1149
00:46:12,552 --> 00:46:14,942
So they kind of function
almost as a separate center.

1150
00:46:15,102 --> 00:46:15,342
Gotcha.

1151
00:46:15,352 --> 00:46:15,382
Okay.

1152
00:46:15,452 --> 00:46:20,432
Our communications we kind of manage
science communication in our space and

1153
00:46:20,512 --> 00:46:21,742
kind of in a slightly different way.

1154
00:46:21,932 --> 00:46:23,552
And we have a very
different target audience.

1155
00:46:23,562 --> 00:46:28,175
So where the, um, the comms
team for HQ is very global, our

1156
00:46:28,175 --> 00:46:29,975
target audience is much narrower.

1157
00:46:30,045 --> 00:46:33,765
Um, we're mostly working with
under-resourced communities in Cape Town.

1158
00:46:33,975 --> 00:46:37,485
Um, and so when you have a different
target audience, you have a

1159
00:46:37,505 --> 00:46:39,005
very different kind of approach.

1160
00:46:39,135 --> 00:46:41,875
Um- Yeah, of course … and also we're
working with much younger people.

1161
00:46:41,945 --> 00:46:45,255
We have a very strong social
justice element to our work as well.

1162
00:46:45,335 --> 00:46:45,765
Gotcha.

1163
00:46:45,765 --> 00:46:48,349
When you guys get this up and
going, definitely we'll be talking.

1164
00:46:48,349 --> 00:46:51,089
I'd love to have you come back on the
show and share a little more about this as

1165
00:46:51,089 --> 00:46:52,619
you get this move forward, this program.

1166
00:46:52,619 --> 00:46:56,149
It'd be really good to hear and hear
how your progress is going and stuff.

1167
00:46:56,172 --> 00:46:59,602
But for now, I'd like to just ask
you kind of our sort of wrap up here.

1168
00:46:59,612 --> 00:47:02,372
There's been an amazing talk with
you, but what advice would you have

1169
00:47:02,372 --> 00:47:03,772
for a young person starting out?

1170
00:47:06,238 --> 00:47:09,738
Gosh, well, I think my journey
my journey's anything to go by.

1171
00:47:09,798 --> 00:47:11,908
I would probably say just
try anything you can.

1172
00:47:12,108 --> 00:47:12,128
Yeah.

1173
00:47:12,848 --> 00:47:13,288
Yeah.

1174
00:47:13,758 --> 00:47:16,358
Um, just jump at every
opportunity that comes your way.

1175
00:47:16,408 --> 00:47:19,948
I know that especially for a lot of
young South Africans, there's not many

1176
00:47:19,948 --> 00:47:23,788
opportunities, that come their way, but
you've got to put yourself out there.

1177
00:47:23,818 --> 00:47:27,818
Um, I do recognize, obviously I'm coming
from a very privileged upbringing.

1178
00:47:27,888 --> 00:47:32,438
but I do think a lot of it,
some of my success can be

1179
00:47:32,598 --> 00:47:34,158
kind of attributed to mindset.

1180
00:47:34,588 --> 00:47:38,608
Um- Yeah … I think, I think that
if you put yourself out there and you

1181
00:47:38,608 --> 00:47:41,628
keep trying and you've got to work
so hard, you've got to keep trying

1182
00:47:41,658 --> 00:47:44,908
everything hard- Yeah I think that's a
massive- Yeah … massive part of it.

1183
00:47:45,668 --> 00:47:48,338
I do have one more
question, based off of that.

1184
00:47:48,448 --> 00:47:51,688
You mentioned the program, that
you, you know, you're looking at

1185
00:47:51,728 --> 00:47:55,678
under-resourced communities in Cape Town
and a lot of younger people in that.

1186
00:47:56,298 --> 00:48:00,508
Do you find that as the education
kind of pours into those communities

1187
00:48:00,508 --> 00:48:07,035
through your center, have you seen
like a more of an interest of those

1188
00:48:07,085 --> 00:48:11,425
children, I don't remember the ages,
but are those children wanting to do

1189
00:48:11,425 --> 00:48:16,515
this, this type of work or go into
either marine science or conservation,

1190
00:48:17,065 --> 00:48:19,925
uh, as they grow up now that they've
been exposed to this type of education?

1191
00:48:21,051 --> 00:48:21,451
Yeah.

1192
00:48:21,451 --> 00:48:24,331
I mean, it's something that we
often think about, what's the actual

1193
00:48:24,371 --> 00:48:27,401
impact of our work- Yeah … and
how do we know that it's working?

1194
00:48:27,461 --> 00:48:30,821
Um, I mean, that's an important
question for any NGO- Of course

1195
00:48:30,831 --> 00:48:32,571
… any organization to consider.

1196
00:48:34,301 --> 00:48:37,857
to be honest, like we haven't had
a great tracking system- Right

1197
00:48:37,857 --> 00:48:38,167
up to date.

1198
00:48:38,177 --> 00:48:38,827
It's hard.

1199
00:48:39,137 --> 00:48:40,791
So we haven't always
tracked- It's difficult.

1200
00:48:40,791 --> 00:48:42,227
Yeah … from, uh, it's also
difficult with children to keep-

1201
00:48:42,237 --> 00:48:43,617
Of course … personal information.

1202
00:48:43,977 --> 00:48:44,587
Um- Yeah.

1203
00:48:44,587 --> 00:48:47,287
Yeah, yeah … but I mean, we're
kind of working out how to track

1204
00:48:47,297 --> 00:48:51,387
things a bit better, and obviously
safely and ethically for children.

1205
00:48:51,447 --> 00:48:51,467
Of

1206
00:48:51,467 --> 00:48:51,857
course.

1207
00:48:52,527 --> 00:48:54,967
There have been a few stories
where we've heard of learners

1208
00:48:54,967 --> 00:48:58,437
that have come through the center
and then gone into conservation.

1209
00:48:58,767 --> 00:49:01,567
Um- Yeah … those kind of stories
are very, they are quite few and far

1210
00:49:01,567 --> 00:49:04,987
between, but to be honest, if you have
a child that's had an amazing ocean

1211
00:49:04,987 --> 00:49:09,657
experience and then ends up, I don't
know, in politics or in law- Yeah.

1212
00:49:10,477 --> 00:49:12,377
Absolutely … like we don't just
need- It transfers … passionate.

1213
00:49:12,387 --> 00:49:14,647
It's about breaking those,
breaking those- Mm-hmm

1214
00:49:14,827 --> 00:49:16,757
um, like it's not just
preaching to the choir.

1215
00:49:16,757 --> 00:49:20,097
We've got to preach- Yeah … to all
the disciplines, um- Yeah … so that

1216
00:49:20,497 --> 00:49:23,647
it can be, yeah, that we can have the
best success- Yeah … that we can.

1217
00:49:24,337 --> 00:49:25,087
Amen to that.

1218
00:49:25,127 --> 00:49:25,427
Yeah.

1219
00:49:25,427 --> 00:49:25,477
Yeah.

1220
00:49:25,477 --> 00:49:25,667
Good.

1221
00:49:25,667 --> 00:49:25,927
Absolutely.

1222
00:49:25,967 --> 00:49:26,247
Good.

1223
00:49:26,527 --> 00:49:29,997
well Clova, thanks so much for coming
on, and so we'll definitely have

1224
00:49:29,997 --> 00:49:32,877
you back here as, and find out more
about your program as you guys get

1225
00:49:32,877 --> 00:49:35,327
your things off and going and stuff.

1226
00:49:35,327 --> 00:49:39,697
And, um, all the best of luck and
everything, and, um, and again,

1227
00:49:39,697 --> 00:49:41,047
thanks so much for coming on the show.

1228
00:49:41,077 --> 00:49:41,357
Yeah.

1229
00:49:41,407 --> 00:49:42,087
It's been great.

1230
00:49:42,797 --> 00:49:43,847
Thanks so much for having me.

1231
00:49:43,847 --> 00:49:46,487
I've got some deep questions to go
and reflect on over the weekend.

1232
00:49:49,217 --> 00:49:50,837
Well, uh, next time you come on, we'll
have a couch laid out for you, and

1233
00:49:50,837 --> 00:49:52,457
then we'll just start asking questions.

1234
00:49:52,457 --> 00:49:52,777
Yeah.

1235
00:49:53,267 --> 00:49:53,307
Awesome.

1236
00:49:55,017 --> 00:49:55,307
It's been

1237
00:49:55,307 --> 00:49:55,507
great.

1238
00:49:56,277 --> 00:49:56,847
Thank you so- It's been wonderful.

1239
00:49:56,847 --> 00:49:57,257
Thank you so much.

1240
00:49:57,587 --> 00:49:58,197
Thank you.

1241
00:49:58,735 --> 00:50:01,145
Thank you, Clova, for joining
us on today's episode of

1242
00:50:01,145 --> 00:50:02,425
the Beyond Jaws Podcast.

1243
00:50:02,455 --> 00:50:03,625
It was great to have you on.

1244
00:50:03,625 --> 00:50:06,135
Like, when we said at the beginning
of this interview that she was an

1245
00:50:06,135 --> 00:50:09,955
adventurer, like you can see, what I was
talking was like, what made her think?

1246
00:50:09,965 --> 00:50:11,005
I think we hit a deep sea.

1247
00:50:11,005 --> 00:50:13,475
She's gonna be thinking about
that deeply for a while now.

1248
00:50:13,705 --> 00:50:16,895
but like, you know, it's interesting
to see, like she goes from Scotland

1249
00:50:17,015 --> 00:50:19,305
down to South Africa, then back to
Scotland, then back to South Africa.

1250
00:50:19,305 --> 00:50:20,535
She kept finding her way.

1251
00:50:20,715 --> 00:50:24,435
She was very, determined in a way
to just continue to go down there.

1252
00:50:24,585 --> 00:50:27,555
And then all of a sudden, you know,
after her research thesis, she goes off

1253
00:50:27,555 --> 00:50:29,855
and she does a trip across the Atlantic.

1254
00:50:29,855 --> 00:50:31,165
Like that's pretty impressive, Dave.

1255
00:50:31,175 --> 00:50:31,205
Oh, yeah.

1256
00:50:31,215 --> 00:50:34,035
Like you're an adventurer yourself,
but that's pretty impressive.

1257
00:50:34,125 --> 00:50:34,405
Oh, yeah.

1258
00:50:34,405 --> 00:50:36,725
Just decided like, "Oh, I'm gonna
go sail. I got a chance to sail

1259
00:50:36,725 --> 00:50:38,725
across the Atlantic, I'm gonna sail
across the Atlantic." And don't

1260
00:50:38,725 --> 00:50:40,415
forget she spent time in Canada too.

1261
00:50:40,695 --> 00:50:41,365
yes.

1262
00:50:41,365 --> 00:50:43,915
So, you know, so that, not that
that was quite the same as sailing

1263
00:50:43,915 --> 00:50:46,870
across the Atlantic, but it was
still, it was, it was, uh- Be,

1264
00:50:46,870 --> 00:50:47,465
could be adventurous.

1265
00:50:47,505 --> 00:50:47,705
You could-

1266
00:50:47,705 --> 00:50:48,565
Yeah, yeah, yeah

1267
00:50:48,565 --> 00:50:50,045
…
do some skiing in the mountains
and everything like that.

1268
00:50:50,045 --> 00:50:50,395
Yeah, you could

1269
00:50:50,395 --> 00:50:50,642
be adventurous.

1270
00:50:50,642 --> 00:50:50,889
True, yeah.

1271
00:50:50,889 --> 00:50:51,615
It's good, good point.

1272
00:50:51,625 --> 00:50:54,425
So yeah, dance with the polar
bears up north, I guess so.

1273
00:50:54,425 --> 00:50:56,545
Uh, uh, but, uh, yeah.

1274
00:50:56,545 --> 00:50:58,545
You get the polar bears and
grizzly mix, the hybrids.

1275
00:50:58,575 --> 00:50:59,325
That, that, that-

1276
00:50:59,325 --> 00:50:59,495
Oh, there you go.

1277
00:50:59,495 --> 00:51:00,265
There you go

1278
00:51:00,355 --> 00:51:02,325
…
then you're really talking
about something there.

1279
00:51:02,355 --> 00:51:02,785
Yeah.

1280
00:51:02,885 --> 00:51:05,945
So it, but it was a, it was a
really, uh, it didn't disappoint.

1281
00:51:05,945 --> 00:51:09,325
We got into it and it was kind of funny,
she kept referring to like, it was almost

1282
00:51:09,325 --> 00:51:12,885
like a therapy session for her, which I
never really thought about our interviews

1283
00:51:12,885 --> 00:51:14,485
as being therapy for people, so.

1284
00:51:14,495 --> 00:51:14,525
It's

1285
00:51:14,525 --> 00:51:15,315
all, you never know.

1286
00:51:15,315 --> 00:51:15,345
Yeah.

1287
00:51:15,345 --> 00:51:17,895
You never know what we're gonna be-
No … we're gonna be talking about.

1288
00:51:17,955 --> 00:51:20,615
We'll definitely have her back on some
point in the future to see if we, if

1289
00:51:20,655 --> 00:51:24,685
any- Yeah … of the therapy helped, uh,
whatever it was she needed therapy for.

1290
00:51:24,685 --> 00:51:25,275
She sounded great- Oh, for

1291
00:51:25,285 --> 00:51:25,725
sure

1292
00:51:25,765 --> 00:51:27,715
…
sounded great to us, so,
and I was really glad.

1293
00:51:27,715 --> 00:51:27,875
Oh,

1294
00:51:27,875 --> 00:51:28,355
yeah, absolutely.

1295
00:51:28,445 --> 00:51:28,705
Absolutely.

1296
00:51:28,705 --> 00:51:28,805
Yeah, yeah.

1297
00:51:28,875 --> 00:51:33,105
Well, I think too it's like that
mix of types of research that she's

1298
00:51:33,105 --> 00:51:35,695
done over the time, I thought it,
it really set her up well for the

1299
00:51:35,695 --> 00:51:39,585
position that she's in today to do
education, like a director of education.

1300
00:51:39,595 --> 00:51:39,625
Mm-hmm.

1301
00:51:39,625 --> 00:51:44,485
'Cause she has this really great broad
scope of understanding of science

1302
00:51:44,485 --> 00:51:45,965
and of research and even- Mm-hmm

1303
00:51:45,965 --> 00:51:46,395
of sharks.

1304
00:51:46,395 --> 00:51:49,035
Like when you start to study all
these different things, you can

1305
00:51:49,035 --> 00:51:50,475
start to piece things together.

1306
00:51:50,855 --> 00:51:54,085
as you're educating people or, as she
says, she does a lot of the admin stuff

1307
00:51:54,085 --> 00:51:57,815
now 'cause she's director, but, helping
building those programs with her team

1308
00:51:57,825 --> 00:51:58,845
and stuff, I think it's really great.

1309
00:51:58,895 --> 00:51:59,275
Yeah.

1310
00:51:59,485 --> 00:51:59,735
Yeah.

1311
00:51:59,735 --> 00:52:00,835
No, it was g- it was really good.

1312
00:52:00,835 --> 00:52:04,975
She, and she, uh, she obviously, you
know, I, I was v- big fan of Cape Town.

1313
00:52:04,975 --> 00:52:07,830
Steph lives in a beautiful part of
the world, and she works, and even

1314
00:52:07,830 --> 00:52:10,295
where she works, you know, the,
the office is really nice there,

1315
00:52:10,685 --> 00:52:12,715
the Save Our Seas facility there.

1316
00:52:12,715 --> 00:52:15,485
And Save Our Seas are doing a lot of
really terrific stuff, and she's one of

1317
00:52:15,485 --> 00:52:17,275
the reasons why, you know, just- Yeah

1318
00:52:17,325 --> 00:52:20,567
really getting out there and doing
a lot of A lot of really cool, uh,

1319
00:52:20,567 --> 00:52:22,147
outreach and educational stuff.

1320
00:52:22,157 --> 00:52:25,421
Had to juggle around a little bit 'cause
she has had kids and family and stuff.

1321
00:52:25,421 --> 00:52:25,568
Of course.

1322
00:52:25,568 --> 00:52:27,841
But it was really great to
have her on the show, and, uh-

1323
00:52:27,891 --> 00:52:28,251
Yeah

1324
00:52:28,301 --> 00:52:29,031
…
have her out there.

1325
00:52:29,031 --> 00:52:31,131
And so, uh, I hope people
enjoy this episode.

1326
00:52:31,131 --> 00:52:31,501
It was great.

1327
00:52:31,531 --> 00:52:32,901
It was a really good one
for us to really enjoy.

1328
00:52:32,901 --> 00:52:32,931
Oh,

1329
00:52:32,931 --> 00:52:36,571
100%. Yeah, it was so much fun to
be able to talk to her, to g-

1330
00:52:36,571 --> 00:52:37,911
to get to know her some more.

1331
00:52:37,911 --> 00:52:39,211
We need to see more of this type of work.

1332
00:52:39,211 --> 00:52:39,351
Yeah.

1333
00:52:39,361 --> 00:52:39,971
It's, it's awesome.

1334
00:52:40,041 --> 00:52:40,511
It's, it's great.

1335
00:52:40,511 --> 00:52:40,571
Yeah.

1336
00:52:40,611 --> 00:52:44,191
So we appreciate Clova for making the
arrangements to come on the podcast.

1337
00:52:44,201 --> 00:52:45,111
We appreciate that.

1338
00:52:45,391 --> 00:52:48,651
And of course, uh, Dave, we'll
put her links in, and her, uh,

1339
00:52:48,651 --> 00:52:50,171
for her socials in the show notes.

1340
00:52:50,171 --> 00:52:53,041
And Dave, if, uh, if people wanna get
a hold of you, what would they do?

1341
00:52:53,231 --> 00:52:57,441
On Instagram, Lost Shark Guy, and on
YouTube channel at Lost Shark Guy.

1342
00:52:57,441 --> 00:53:01,241
And, uh, check out our series, uh,
Searching for Lost Sharks: Extinct

1343
00:53:01,241 --> 00:53:05,041
or Alive, that Andrew and Denise
Sotomayor and I are producing.

1344
00:53:05,381 --> 00:53:07,041
And, uh, please subscribe.

1345
00:53:07,191 --> 00:53:07,881
We appreciate it.

1346
00:53:08,307 --> 00:53:08,677
Perfect.

1347
00:53:08,687 --> 00:53:11,897
And if you guys wanna get a hold
of us on Beyond Jaws Pod, just

1348
00:53:11,897 --> 00:53:13,167
go to Instagram, Beyond Jaws Pod.

1349
00:53:13,387 --> 00:53:15,887
And of course, if you're watching
this on YouTube, subscribe, and, uh,

1350
00:53:16,007 --> 00:53:19,267
hit that notification bell so you
don't miss any other episode on our

1351
00:53:19,267 --> 00:53:20,667
YouTube channel, Beyond Jaws Pod.

1352
00:53:20,717 --> 00:53:23,977
Thank you so much for joining us on
this episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

1353
00:53:24,137 --> 00:53:24,777
Have a great day.

1354
00:53:24,787 --> 00:53:26,887
We'll talk to you next time,
and happy conservation.