How 14 African Countries Joined Forces to Protect Sharks and Rays

0:00 Welcome back to another wonderful episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. We have a special episode for you today. It's a bit of a bonus episode. We have the people who are running and in charge of the West and Central African Elasmobranch Coalition. And this coalition is kind of interesting because we have interviewed a lot of these people that are in the coalition, that are shark researchers, recently, or they've been on the podcast a number of times before. And so we are gonna welcome Ghofrane Labyedh and Ana Lucia Furtado Soares to talk about how the coalition came to be and what they hope to get out of it. It's gonna be a lot of fun. I can't wait to get into the interview, so let's start the show Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

0:40 I'm your co-host Andrew Lewin, here with my co-host Dr. David Ebert. Dave, a coalition in West and Central Africa, did you ever think it was gonna happen? No. Well, I figured- … eventually it would probably happen with a lot of the people today, but when I started out in Africa 40 years ago, it was just, like, a big unknown. Right. And it's been, and it's been that way most of through history. there's been very little research done there. But, it's really great. Most of these people have been on the show at least once or twice, and I think, Anna Lucía's been on at least three times now, so we might have to make her a co-host if she co- next time she's on. And, um, but it's really great to see the work these people are doing, in these countries, 'cause it's just been a real unknown for sharks, and yet we know- Yeah … sharks and rays are fished in those areas, but we just know nothing about them.

1:22 it's kind of exciting. I'm really glad we're kind of, like, kind of pioneering this whole area and kind of in the sense of, like, getting these people on the shows so they can tell their story. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so. And I think that's the wonderful thing about what we've been able to accomplish here. it's fun to be able to do this, 'cause we learn about, some of these people from other people. Like Dr. Andrew Chin was able to, introduce you to them at Sharks International- Mm-hmm. which was great in Sri Lanka this year. And so you were so excited. Yep. You're like, "Let's get them on the podcast." and the, thing is, like, it's fun for us because we get to- Oh, yeah … like, talk to the people and see how much they love what they do, and they dedicate- Yeah their lives to doing it, beyond, like, the 9:00 to 5:00 that a lot of people, Yeah … will dedicate their jobs to. These are real pioneers out there in the field right now, 'cause they're going into areas nobody's been working in, and I always say that to people, like, if you're a young person starting out, find something nobody else is doing.

2:11 going out and doing the 1,001st white shark project's not gonna really advance your- No … put you on the map. But if you go to Benin or Ghana or Angola, or Cameroon where, a lot of these people are working out, that's where you're gonna make a name for yourself. Yeah. Just go somewhere new. and everything. And so, as I say, these are really pioneers in the field. I'm real excited to have them on there, to get to know them, and like I say, yeah, it was nice thing going to Sharks International Sri Lanka was, Issah and, Houangninan actually knew, they actually were fans of the podcast before I- Oh, yeah I even know them, and Andrew Chin introduced us there. so that was pretty exciting. So it's nice- Yeah … it's nice being able to go around and see that. So, uh, yeah- Absolutely … I'm really looking forward to this show with them today, so.

2:51 Yeah, and I think what we're gonna be talking about in this episode is really how the coalition came to be and what to expect from this coalition. I think a lot of people are like, "Oh, another organization or project," and we're gonna find out what the project is and how it's managed and how they're gonna go forth in doing that. So here's the interview with Ghofrane and Ana Lucia. Enjoy, and we'll talk to you after. Hey, Ghofrane. Hey, Ana Lucia. Welcome to the Beyond Jaws podcast. Are you ready to talk about the West and Central Africa Elasmobranch Coalition? Hi, Andrew. Thank you. Right? Ah, this is gonna be a lot of fun. Yeah. It's good. We're looking forward to it. this is a new coalition that was announced just a few weeks ago. So once we heard about it, Dave and I, we were like, "Hey, we have to do this right away. We have to get, whoever's in charge." We didn't even know who was in charge and let alone- … we look back, we listen back to both of your interviews from this year, and you both mention this in the works.

3:44 And so, we're super excited to have both of you on the podcast to talk about that. Ghofrane, why don't you just let us know a little bit about what the coalition is about, and, yeah, give us a description. Hi, Dave and Andrew, and thank you both for having us again here with you in this, bonus episode. yeah, actually, people, they started hearing about the coalition a few weeks ago, but we have been, working to make it, like, visible and, public to everyone since three years. Since 2023, we started creating a network in West and Central Africa, of people who are working on sharks and rays, organizations.

4:25 anyone or any, like association is doing some work on sharks and rays, we have been contacting them. AMCO and Manta Trust by that time, African Marine Conservation Organization. because everyone was working alone, and there is a lot, going on in terms of sharks and rays fishery and policy and research, but we have been disconnected. People and organizations, they have been disconnected. So the first goal was to connect all the efforts in the region and to keep, like, working together. So the coalition is, It was like the fruit between the partnership, between Manta Trust and, AMCO, and now it's affiliated under the umbrella of Manta Trust officially.

5:13 That's why Manta Trust started publishing about it, and we even created our own website. And all of that started happening since we got the funding this year. Last January, we have been lucky to secure funding from Paul Angel, Foundation, Manta Trust. And also the coalition is lucky because it's associated to the IUCN Shark Specialist Group. we will sign as well an agreement with them. So baby steps, but we have a big dream together and, we wish that we can achieve it. If I, forgot something, Lucy, I think, you can say it. Yeah.

5:53 No, no, no. I think it was great introduction, Ghofrane. And, yeah, so my name is Lucia, and, well, I know Ghofrane, first of all. I will start with the personal side before our, liberal side. So that connects and very well works well together in terms of our, personal level and working together. so I know Ghofrane since two thousand and twenty-three. This is when I met Ghofrane in Cameroon, in Kribi, where I was there invited by Manta Trust, very kindly, to attend and to also… Again, this was, as very well Ghofrane said, it was missing connection between the people working in the region, in terms of elasmobranch or marine conservation.

6:37 So, Betty Lagbauer, which, she was a part of the Manta Trust, she invited me because of my work in Angola. And then when I arrived there, we were in an event which was the Street Well, which was, organized by AMCO. And, yeah, Ghofrane was, a part of it and organizer, and, this is where the coalition actually started, when we managed to get a few of us that were doing efforts in the region, and, the idea came up. other, more, experienced, I would say, researchers were there to advise us and, I mean, we decided then, to create, our group. But then, of course, it took a bit of time to put things together for applying for funding, to identify roles, needs.

7:21 But we are talking about in the space of three years, we managed to put together, multiple countries and multiple, backgrounds and languages and, people, even experiences in terms of marine conservation, together to make conservation on sharks and rays. And I think this is incredible effort of me, Ghofrane and all the team Well, so yeah, this is quite incredible in two years how things are, proceeding and, I think this is also to do with the quality and the people that work and the passion behind, such as Ghofrane. Yeah. Well, I gotta say, first of all, Lucia, we're missing your puppy dog today.

8:01 I have to mention that 'cause he was such a huge hit last time you were on the show, so we'll have to have you sometime come back with your dog, with your puppy next time, so next time you make it on the show. I wanted to ask you, like, what's sort of the range of countries, like in West Africa, like, the northernmost country and then the southerns? You go down to Angola, obviously. Is Namibia included in your coalition? No. I'm the southern country, so me, as in talking about Angola. so I'm the southern, African country that is involved in the coalition. due to the efforts there, and we have to think that although on the region that I'm most focused on, we have way more similarities maybe with Southern Africa, the north of Angola, which is something that we aim to explore in the future, it is way more likely to have species in common with the, Central Africa, side.

8:53 So this is why it was important for the coalition to also include Angola, because it's also part of it. It's actually the transition between, the type of diversity to, colder waters. So- Yeah … I'm in between. Okay. I was lucky. I got called. Yeah. I was, I was the last one. Well, so, so yeah. So Ghofrane, what's sort of the northernmost country in the coalition? actually, when we, started creating the network, the name of the network was Gulf of Guinea Elasmobranch Network. Because we started, very few countries. We have been focusing more on the Gulf of Guinea countries, but we were also, reaching out to everyone in the region, especially those, like, researchers like Lucia, that their, like, work are very known by that time.

9:44 So we have been reaching out even to countries that are outside of the Gulf of Guinea region. Okay. But afterwards, we drafted a strategy by then in 2023, the countries of Gulf of Guinea, and then we presented this draft in front of the government during the CMS Marine Megafauna Week. It was, in 2023 in September. And the government asked us to expand our network to cover all of, like, the greater West Africa, like from Mauritania to, even Namibia. But we don't have anyone from Namibia now. So our, like, coalition, it's called West and Central Africa, but we wish to have even people from Morocco or from South Africa, as long as we have the same goal.

10:36 You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. But for now, we are 14 countries from Mauritania to Angola. Okay. Okay. We are 14 countries. We have- That's good … Cabo Verde, yeah, Cameroon, Nigeria. Oh. Yeah. Like yeah, 14 countries, in the region. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. So you got 14 countries. You made a point with like, Cabo Verde. how many countries from between Angola and Mauritania are actually In that region 20. 20 20. So you got 14 of the 20. Are you trying to make, connections in the other six countries or so? In some countries we don't have anyone, doing any work. Like in Equatorial, there is no one working on sharks and rays. Um- Mmm.

11:18 So some countries, we still like miss people who just work. Like, no one is doing anything, so that's why we cannot cover all the countries. But other countries- we have, some connections, but not locals. And, researchers, they are not like, staying in those countries, Mm-hmm like permanently. So that's why we prefer to make connections with locals more than researchers- Right … that are just passing by Mm-hmm. Yeah, so it's just the beginning and, it's not easy to keep also everyone, even the 14 countries, sometimes It needs so much of work because it's a network.

11:58 like if someone is involved with it, it's based on a voluntary basis. So to keep the network going, it needs like so much of collaboration and, communication, and yeah. So How many different languages they speak across the 14 countries? Any idea? we are lucky to have Lucia with, the coordination team. the only one who speaks Portuguese in the coordination team. Yeah. Um- We are lu- we are, we are lucky we have, French, so Ghofranen, she's French speaker. I understand more or less, but again, can be in a meeting, but we need Ghofranen to be… but this is amazing because the people that working in the coordination of it are able to speak in multiple languages, which then you can reach, other type of public and even get deeper connections and trust from the members of those countries.

12:54 so we are French, English, Portuguese, and, yeah, that's it. Mmm … and Spanish, and Spanish. We actually- Spanish … have, Spanish. I think, it's a huge effort that everyone, even that when they are more comfortable speaking in their own language, they make the effort in having the common, English, uh, um- Language language to communicate. it's amazing. and most of us are not even native speakers, which makes it even more amazing- from all of us. Because, for example, I'm not a native speaker, not n. And, yeah, I think it's a great effort. And to translate it, I feel like it's, making it science available for all of us.

13:34 Because- in Africa, in many places, one of the Barriers will be even language. Mm-hmm … starting with the language. for example, in Angola, it's very hard to have, people that have, even in our area, the ability to communicate so well, and this is not fair because, again, it's their country, and things should be communicated in their language. And we are there, again, to also allow that, the knowledge is spread through all the countries in a similar way, equally and fairly, so everyone is informed and participating. I think this is, something that we also bring to the table, which is this, novelty in communicating, putting things together. And although Ghofranen said very well, it is a lot of hard work because we are starting in a volunteering basis, it is something that all of us know that is gonna be, useful to our paths in conservation for us to do it together.

14:27 Again, the species are not in a pool. they go and they migrate even. Our borders are our friends, and we need to work together. And then there's the people above or below. And then if you have all of us in the same boat, I think this is fantastic. And this is- again, the year that things really, got shape and funding and, I got in, for example, in May after Sharks International, and so far it was incredible. I really enjoy, working with the team that I'm working in the coalition. also, I think we have very good people, advising us and, allowing us to do, from Manta Trust and other advisors and researchers that are helping us, supervising, even scientific decisions. Dr.

15:07 Emma Javado, for example. it's incredible. And it gave us also, like, these young researchers, the ability to create something their own in countries that were never done. So it's a lot of responsibility, but it's nice to see that it's pulling a lot of the younger generation, and in places that it was never done. I think this is quite something. Yeah. Yeah. I- But it takes time, and it's a lot of hard work, but it is quite an effort to achieve this. Yeah I know we've spoken with both of you, when you're on the podcast and just in person, but, when I was a student in South Africa back in the '80s, we had no idea what was going on, like, in West and Central Africa, and, um, even, people listening to the podcast, I mean, when I went to first couple trips I did to Namibia, nobody'd ever surveyed the sharks and rays in Namibia before I went up there.

15:56 And when you go north of there to, like, Angola Ghana, Cameroon. I mean, It was that Gulf of Guinea area. There was just nothing known in the literature about it. So I mean, I'm real excited for you guys and really great seeing you guys kind of… you're real pioneers, I have to say, in the whole area, going into, going in, getting in there and learning to-- just identifying the species that occur in the country there, I think is phenomenal to be able to do. And the fact you've been able to pull together this coalition now, with some of the other people, such diverse countries and everything, and be able to get that together, I think is amazing on the whole thing. Agreed. Agreed. I did have a question around, like, the coalition. It's great that everybody's connected now, probably a lot of times virtually and stuff, there's still a lot of, like, geographic widespread when you look at the kilometers, if you actually measure it out in terms of everybody.

16:45 how is this coalition going to help everybody who have been doing individual work or individual projects? How is that sharing of resources, maybe technology, just information, maybe a support for, like a support network. It can't be easy to be, some of the only researchers in these countries. how is that coalition going to help bring that support to those of you who are doing research and work in these countries by yourself to help, get that exchange and maybe get more knowledge on how things are done or more collaborations? That's a great question actually, and that's the main goal of the World Coalition is to support the work of locals.

17:25 actually, one of our main goals is to build capacity, and some of the biggest challenges in the region is how to collect data on sharks and rays, how to identify species, how to implement policy, how to achieve goals. So our main role is to facilitate all of those things. And, we have, annual meetings in person. We just conducted our, annual meeting for this year in Casablanca. It was in August. And during this meeting, we have been working the three languages in the region, on how to create a main protocol of da- like how to collect data on sharks and rays.

18:11 And this protocol will be published within few months as we still working on it. and it will be in three different languages. So that will be one tool that can, help the researchers within the coalition or not- Mm … joining the coalition yet. It will be public soon. Also, another thing which is very important that we, I consider myself like out of the coalition members, I consider that the coalition is helping us to achieve it, is to, implement policy. Because sometimes we have so much data, you have so, scientific, data in your hands, but you don't know what to do with it. yeah, so the coalition is helping, the members to translate this science into, policy, into actions, into conservation.

19:00 we have five CITES workshops, planned, starting from this year to 2028, and five different, countries in the region. We have five priority countries that are advanced more than the other countries in terms of policy so we will be conducting CITES workshops. CITES workshops is there to inform about the listings of sharks and rays. CITES is like, an international convention, that control the trade of threatened, species, including sharks and rays. Not just sharks and rays, many other threatened species. So we will conduct those workshops to inform about the listings, elaborate, national plans, like steps to follow and that it's like to help the science to be policy and protect sharks and rays.

19:54 And another thing that we have, and Lucia is responsible about it, is the rapid assessment. I will let Lucia talk about it so the rapid assessment, is, one of the, I will say, projects, and it will be used as a tool for later creating evidence, which is basically what I was, doing in Angola. So we have five countries that we selected in terms of, capacity building status, research, in terms of research, what has been done, the openness of the country, or w- I mean, governmental openness willingness to change, to create, some sort of conservation action.

20:34 so we have, Senegal, Cameroon, yeah. And Gabon. Gabon. Exactly. Exactly. And Gabon. So we asked the researchers to suggest which type of, landing site assessment, which, it is again, the most, cost efficient, method for us that we already identified to collect data. So, which with the same budget, all these five countries are gonna start in the same, season data collection, collecting, in, I will say, the variables, the ones that you cannot escape, for example, identifying the shark, measuring it, sexing it, maturity. But some people can weight them, some people are doing, DNA, some people are doing GPS.

21:16 So according to also the status of the country in terms of the, shark and ray conservation, we have different tools and more people to support, and we're gonna compare it once this, I was … It's not a trial, but our pilot study will, let's put it like that. And we can, for the first time, compare in West Africa, the data for the same season and the same study, the study design for all of these countries. And this is quite incredible because what we aim to do as well is to create evidence that can be used by all of us and created by all of us. for example, we are now in the process of, a review in the region of everything that is going on, from small scale fisheries to semi-industrial to industrial.

22:01 So if you are from a country and you have information, you are writing this paper with us. But it's standardized. It's the first time we are standardizing things. And again, if we're starting this data that we are also collecting on the beach, which is complementary with the review that we also have, it's also standardized. So I'm not collecting something that someone in Gabon has never heard about. So we are all in the same page, and we want to see and compare where we are in terms of, in a biological sense and also in a conservation sense in these five countries. And, for me, it is something that it's pioneering, first of all, in this, coast. in at least not talking about, South Africa and Namibia, which have greater, advances than we already did.

22:44 But again, the time has come for all of us to get together and to collaborate to create this data, because what is the aim of all of this? Obviously, to preserve the species. And we are against the clock, and particularly in, West Africa, I don't think we have much time. So it is needed greater effort, from all of us to create this, incredible data that we will have soon to show to the world. and this says a lot of, hours of work pro bono from a lot of people, volunteering. And, yes. So thank you to, to all of these, people that are part of the coalition and that support the coalition as well. So thank you everyone.

23:25 Yeah. Have you guys recently involved with the ISRA program, Important Sharks and Ray Areas? Ghofrane, can you tell us a little bit about that? Actually, we did our coalition meeting back to back with the Ezra workshop. We organized it, both events at the same time. Our meeting was, like on the 22nd, 24th, and then Ezra workshop started on the 25th of August until the 28th. And not all our coalition members attended the Ezra workshop, only the members that had, like, data to present, because it's like a workshop based on data.

24:06 most of the coalition members attended the first day. almost all of them. Yeah, maybe two or one who couldn't do, make it. Yeah, and, we worked together to identify, important areas for sharks and rays. Nothing is published yet. nothing is confirmed yet. the process of Ezra, you identify the area first. You submit it as a preliminary area of interest, then the committee, they review it, and they get back to you saying it can be an important, shark and ray area or not. So we are in the process of confirming the areas that we identified during the workshop.

24:48 Mm-hmm. Okay. Oh, ni- nice. That's nice. I think that's a really good program I've been following, I've been following that progress around the world and stuff. I guess I probably saw it somewhere online there, you just recently had it in August, so they're still doing a lot of the, analysis right now on the project? Yeah. Actually our area, the African Atlantic, region, it was the last region, for the Ezra initiative. So we have been lucky to accomplish the program by our region, and, that was good to give us time to collect data because West African region, it was like a very, poor data region. So that's why, Rima Jabado, she's the responsible for the Ezra, initiative.

25:31 She, led this, region to be the last one, so we had enough time to collect the data. Yeah. Yeah. Soon this will be published and cross fingers that we can influence the government with the future Ezra areas. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rima, I keep thinking they must be cloning her or something, 'cause I can't believe all the places she goes. Um, I mean, she just, she's like freaking everywhere. every time I look around, it's like I- She even has like radius everywhere. Yeah. Everywhere, every day. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I know. I know. That's true. It's like, she always seems like she's on a plane somewhere, going to some place, so, uh- I also think she's probably the most mentioned person on this- Yeah podcast.

26:15 Everybody that we talk to from all over the world, Rima, her name pops up- Yep … in some sort of capacity as a, either a mentor or someone who's, in charge of a particular project , and a connection and- Yeah … help. it's unreal. So shout out to- Yeah … to Rima for, for all the work she does. Yeah. , What's your vision for the future of the Central and West African Coalition? what's your vision? It depends, like, what I would like and what, we have to also be realistic. But again, I think what I do want is what a lot of people involved want, which is a rapid action- Mm … in terms of conservation of sharks and rays. How we gonna get there, it depends also on our background, how we were working before, which country we are talking about, what has been done or not.

27:02 So for example, Angola, there was nothing, there was no baseline. There are countries like Gabon that are so much more advanced, they have MPAs, et cetera. Mm-hmm. And this is why I think the coalition is important because- I have a lot to learn because at some stage Gabon was like Angola. Okay. Someone started, and I want to speak with these people, and I want to learn with their mistakes- Right so I am faster doing what they did and shortened because there's no time. So this is one of the things that I would like to see in the future is more involvement, more, in terms of number of people, but for this we need training. We need to train people. There's a few of us doing this work, and we know how hard it is and how hard even to get the information and someone to teach us this.

27:48 So this is something that I think in the future there needs to be, we need to have more training to, recruit more people to the cause so this is very important to have also this awareness part, not only collecting data, not only publishing papers, to inform policy and to actually have, effective measurements, I think it is important, to also have the awareness part of the general public and even I would say conservation public in general. because when these measures are implemented, people need to be aware of why they should follow this, why is this important. And this is something that I hope to see also in the future that we have funding to, have a network that, functions, kind of like an octopus, in the sense of we have so many things that have to be sorted, and we have people, but we need capacity building, we need obviously more funding to do these things.

28:41 And I think for one year that, things are going, with the funding, that Ghofrane mentioned, I think a lot was achieved. We went to Morocco where we had our first, meeting after Sharks International, and it was a success. We managed to get people from young career scientists that are doing work in the region, and they need the help to people that, want to connect and have the knowledge, for example, from Gabon, from Cameroon, and this is important. These are our in- the mentors of the younger generation that is trying to make a difference. So, I think everyone has the same mission. again, we come from different starting points, but with the coalition we try to make it as we all start as zero.

29:25 From now on, we can count with each other, and this is our, I will say, our rule, is really cooperation, and that's it that we ask cooperation obviously respect because, in the sense of we cannot different countries have different paths, and people that are doing, an effort in a country might not be in the same level, not because of their knowledge. it's just about of the point that they started or the opportunities that they have, and we want to create and, more opportunities for those countries, that lack, in terms of conservation, and support, continuous support to the others that are already doing very well. So I think this is also one of the missions is to the countries that lack completely of this, knowledge, that we can support them and push them to create a network themselves of people working in the field and, for sharks and rays, for conservation.

30:17 Yeah. Hopefully- Cool … yeah, we can achieve that in a few, few, few years. Yeah. Good, good. Oh, great. Ghofrane, do you have anything else you wanted to add? Yes, yes, yes. Actually, I agree with the Lucia vision, and my vision is almost the same thing. I really dream that Western Central Africa region will be, a great space and a great environment to students and researchers to conduct shark and ray research, because we don't have labs in Western Central Africa. We don't have advanced science in Western Central Africa.

30:59 All we do is basic and very classic science to study sharks and rays, and that limits us in terms of knowledge, limits us in terms of, discovering more the species, the biodiversity, the challenges, the threats, everything. So I really dream, it's more than a vision, it's a dream, that this region will be a great region and a very known region in the world Like about studying sharks and rays, having great labs, like diving to film sharks and rays in the water, not seeing them dead in the fresh markets. implementing the acoustic telemetry to know the movements of sharks and rays.

31:40 Go beyond what we are doing now. because what we are doing now is a little bit, sad when you see only dead sharks and rays. Like for example, me, I've never seen an alive shark in Cameroon. All I'm seeing is like dead sharks being landed. Indeed. So I dream of studying alive sharks, and having more locals being skilled, very skilled, and, yeah, like enjoying studying sharks and rays, not seeing them dead and landed, and dreaming of for a better future. So that's my dream and vision for the coalition. Nice. Good. Well- Very nice … guys, good. Very good. Well, I wanna thank you both for coming on and sharing your vision and your story about the Central and West African, Elasmobranch Coalition.

32:27 We're gonna definitely be following along with both of you. Oh, yeah. And I know we'll be having you both back on, in the future to talk more about it, and hopefully you'll be able to get … Achieve some of these goals and start pursuing your vision there. But, anyway, thank you both very much, for coming on, and I'm sure we'll see you again soon. Okay. Thank you again for having us and hosting us. It's always great to talk to you, Andrew and Dave, and, hope we can meet one time, Andrew, soon. Yes. Yes. One day. One day. Maybe at the next Sharks International. Hopefully before that, but you never know. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much, both of you. Really appreciate it. Love the work everybody's doing, and thank you so much. Yeah.

33:07 Thank you. Thank you, Ghofrane. Thank you, Ana Lucia. We appreciate you coming on the podcast again to give us, more information on what's happening in, Western and Central Africa. It's really great to see a coalition like this come through because, as we've been talking to a number of people from different countries, in Issah's case, it's the first time somebody's doing this type of research. I think Ghofrane in Cameroon, there haven't been many people to do it either. No. They're isolated in terms of the research that's been at that country or within the area. This coalition it does bring them together. Yeah. And, and it allows them to share resources, allows them to share, like support each other when things can get a little tougher or that things- Mm-hmm don't move as quickly as they expect.

33:50 And then share like successes so that maybe those successes can transfer over and they can scale that success across like the Gulf of Guinea, I guess, is where- Yeah … what we're looking at in this situation, Yeah, the Gulf of Guinea is definitely, I know even from when my graduate student days, that was an area we always thought would be really exciting. but back in the day there, it had a lot of issues with piracy and a lot of civil unrest and stuff, and I, think I've shared this story a few times. I know I've talked with, Ana Lucia about it, cause her parents fled the, war in, Angola back in the late '80s when I was going up to Namibia. And, it was definitely a no-go zone to go to Angola, at the time. you go up so far near the border, and that was in Namibia and Angola. That was about it. So, you just couldn't do that. Now she's in there going through, doing the research there, which again, I think is really the first serious work somebody's done in that area.

34:37 So- Yeah … it's had its challenges in the past, but it's also really good. there's an opportunity there now for them to, do some really great research and to fill in a lot of blanks as far as sharks go. Yeah, I think that's the big thing, we don't know a lot of, about sharks in these areas. and I think having this coalition will, speed up the process. Mm-hmm. If they were doing it alone, you're better as a team always, and I think this really allows that to happen and to be able to build on the successes of others and learn from each other and what works, what doesn't work. And obviously, there's gonna be unique challenges within each country, but you're gonna get- Well- … that, that saying. Sorry, yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, I say a lot of these species, they're transnational. sharks aren't gonna stop at the border.

35:17 They're gonna, traverse several of the countries. And especially in the Gulf of Guinea, they could go, Benin has a very short coastline, and some of those other countries do, but, the sharks are not gonna just stop at the border. so building this coalition where you can get to know each other, you can do some projects, you can do some tagging, some tracking, and you can see where these things are going, and knowing who's working on them in the country next to you is gonna be invaluable. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think it's really important. So- Yeah … yeah, so this is great. Like, this is wonderful. People can, follow the, coalition. I'll put the link in the show notes, but if you go to wcasharks, sharksandrays.org, if you go there, so wcasharksandrays.org, you'll be able to, get to that site, and you'll be able to see what they're all about.

36:02 And, we'll put the link in the show notes. Obviously, Ghofrane and Ana Lucia, thank you again for being on the podcast. We'll put, their socials in the show notes as well. And Dave, if people wanna get ahold of you, how would they do so? best thing is through my, Instagram, thing @lostsharkguy, also my YouTube channel at Lost Shark Guy. Please go check out the documentary series, "Searching for Lost Sharks: Extinct or Alive," that, Andrew and Denise Sotomayor and I are producing. And, check it out and leave some comments. I'd like to hear from you. Obviously, yeah, that'd be great. Thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of Beyond Jaws. From Dave and I, thank you so much. We'll talk to you later, and happy conservation.