Scientists Thought Sawfish Were Gone… They Were Wrong

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Hey everybody, welcome back

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to another exciting episode

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of the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I'm your co-host, Andrew Lewin,

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with my co-host, Dr. David Ebert.

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Dave, you ready to

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talk about some sawfish?

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I have to tell you, I do.

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This is really, is truly a bonus episode

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we're doing today with Rachel.

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Because as we kind of alluded to

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in the last time when

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she's on a few weeks ago

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is that we did, we had her

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on to talk about tiger sharks

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and kind of after we finished there,

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she brought up about,

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happened to casually mention

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the sawfish project she had going on,

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which has not really

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received any attention yet.

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And we thought, wow, okay,

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Rach, we'll have you back on

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and we'll do another episode with you

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to talk about this unbelievable story.

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And it really is if you

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follow sawfish conservation

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or you're into just follow shark

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conservation in general,

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you'll find this an incredible story

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of how they discovered this whole area

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that was unknown previously, sawfish.

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And so, yeah, so it was, I guess,

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we got people like Rachel,

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we just need to have on

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more frequently, I guess,

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because we just agreed.

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We didn't even know

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about this and found it out.

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So as I said, it's really

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a truly a bonus episode.

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And I really hope people enjoy it

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because this was a pretty

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exciting episode, I think.

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Well, it was fun.

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And we'll talk about it after when we

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published the interview,

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when you guys listened to the interview,

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but it's one of those words.

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It, you know, there's some benefits to,

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like social consequences, you know,

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in certain geographies around the world.

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So environmental benefits, you know,

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the places where we least exist or least

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change are usually where the

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environment's the best.

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And we usually have these kind of

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interesting discoveries.

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But it just goes to show, you know,

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Mar Alliance is working out there with

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people who grew up

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there for over generations

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and generations and generations across

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Central America and

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parts of the Caribbean.

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And it's such an important aspect to

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build those community relationships

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and to work with

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communities to discover, you know,

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a nursery haven for

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sawtooth and for sawtooth sharks.

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I think it's just, it's great.

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So we're gonna, we're

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gonna talk about that.

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So let's, how about we start the

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interview with Rachel Graham talking

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about the sawtooth sharks.

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Sawfish. Saw, ah, let's do that.

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Okay.

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Let's do that again.

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So here's the interview with Rachel

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Graham talking about this new discovery.

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Enjoy, and we'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Rachel, welcome back again to the

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Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk

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about sawfish today?

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I am so ready, Andrew. So ready.

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All right. All right.

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I love it. I love it.

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Welcome back, everybody. Guess who we

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have on today again?

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We have Dr. Rachel Graham, who, when we,

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she came on originally to talk about

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tiger sharks here recently.

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And at the end of the episode, she talked

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about start talking about this amazing

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discovery she has with sawfish.

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And Andrew and I thought, well, we have

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to have her back on

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to talk about sawfish.

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You can't let that one go to waste.

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So Rachel, welcome

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back to the show again.

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Glad to have you back.

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Thank you so much for, yeah,

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thank you for having me back.

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And so quickly after the tiger sharks,

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but it's like boom, boom, boom.

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We're getting all these incredible

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discoveries and globally, globally

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relevant discoveries.

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Yeah, that's great. Yeah. So yeah, we,

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well, like I said, it was four years from

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the last time you're on.

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You've been on here

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twice now. It's great.

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We'll have to start having a regular

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segment with you about sharks in the

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middle of America's.

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So I'll just turn it over to you.

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Why don't you tell us all about the

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sawfish research down in Central America?

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Absolutely. So I think one of the, I

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think the reasons why you were excited to

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have this episode is

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that here we are in 2026.

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And we know that the distribution of

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large tooth sawfish, pristice pristice,

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has shrunk incredibly

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throughout the world.

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You have some lifeboat populations left

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in, for example, Northern Australia,

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Papua New Guinea, Western Indian Ocean, a

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couple of places, potentially Brazil,

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definitely in Brazil, potentially

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Colombian Ecuador, etc.

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We've had a couple of captures over in

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Costa Rica and in Central America, but

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they're far and few between.

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And here we have after several years of

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working with this, and I say here, I'm

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speaking from Panama, after several years

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of having conducted surveys with fishers,

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our Mar-a-Lines team,

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originally led 10 years ago by Megan

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Cheves, and then working with several

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local partners from communities have

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actually discovered what seems to be the

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largest nursery ground for large tooth

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sawfish so far in the Americas.

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So we know that if sawfish are existing

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in other parts of the Americas, I'm sure

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there are other nursery grounds. But

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there is no getting around the fact that

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we have managed to get incredible capture

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rates, especially last year.

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And we are moving towards behavioral

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change with the communities we're working

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with, the fishers we are working with,

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behavioral change, policy change, working

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with the fisheries department, Ministry

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for Environment in Panama, and so many

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other actors, so that we can not only try

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to ensure or safeguard the persistence of the sawfish in this nursery site, but of course, if it's an issue of the

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research, we must have some adult sawfish

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somewhere. So expand that work to the

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rest of Panama and the region and really

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try to restore this population, which is

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so incredibly depleted primarily from

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extensive gill net shrimping and other net related fisheries.

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How do you think this this particular

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site kind of remained relatively

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unintruded upon by fishers and others?

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So the site that we found is in the

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Darien in the Darien Gap, which until

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recently has been heavily featured in the

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news primarily for that trans Darien Gap

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migration, people coming into Venezuela,

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Colombia and more, and then crossing over

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into Panama in the hopes of moving up

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Central America and into the United States.

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Darien Gap is very, very well known for

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being very remote, being hostile,

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dangerous, very dangerous. And this is

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the same area where that persistent

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population of sawfish remains.

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Interesting. Yeah. You know, it seems

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like it's kind of it's kind of like those

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areas where you know, you've got the old

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ordinance or unexplainable.

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There's an offshore wind, there's an unexploded

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or unexploded bomb areas offshore. Nobody

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touches them. Nobody goes there. And then

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when you kind of do a survey of the fish,

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you realize the fish are thriving because

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nobody can't go there. And that's very

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well situation in the Darien Gap.

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Well, what the. I say there's a couple of

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things I couple of examples I can think

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of as, you know, when they had the issues

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with the Somali pirates of Somalia,

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nobody was going in that area there.

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Nobody was fishing in that area.

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just rebounded amazingly. And the other

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one is the the the tenacular

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butterfly ray, which we were about to

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declare extinct, turned out that there's

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a remnant population that is down in the,

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what's the the Straits

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of Hormuz? It's the only

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population left in the war. And

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Spherophilia, the Straits of

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Hormuz, on the Iranian side,

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that's the only population of this

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butterfly ray left in the world we

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thought was extinct and then turned up.

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We found this pot. So getting to your

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point here, it sounds like the Darien Gap

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and and sawfish is there's the same

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type of thing where nobody goes there

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because it's highly dangerous. So what

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Rachel, what makes it so dangerous? I'm

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curious, I'm not

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familiar with the region.

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So not only is it difficult territory,

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it's mountainous, it's jungle, it's

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riverine. But there's also a lot of

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banditry. So a lot of

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people would get assaulted,

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actually on the way from Colombia into

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Panama, and, and worse. So

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very scary. I've talked to

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several people who've gone through the

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Darien Gap and the stories

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are pretty horrific. So in

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that backdrop, you know, we were working

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further south from some of the key

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transfer or crossover

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areas. But these areas as well are pretty

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remote, and in fact, have a

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lot of police and military

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checks. So we're constantly having to

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check our passports and our,

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our, our ID cards and more they

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register us. And so we have a, we always

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have to check in with the

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authorities when we're working

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in that area. And this is one of the

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reasons also why it's such a privilege to

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be able to work with indigenous

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fishers in the area, you have two

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indigenous groups, the Wunan in the

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Embera. And so we work

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very closely with them.

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And since they're moving up and down the

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rivers to fish to move their, their

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agricultural products and more. And as a

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result, we're not just looking for

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sawfish. We're also trying to establish

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baselines for the riverine fisheries,

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riverine fish, and so much more. And

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do they, do they get any other freshwater

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stingrays get up into that area?

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Are you aware of? I'm sure there must be,

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but I haven't. And I've asked the fishers

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to please share with us any unusual

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species that they

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don't recognize or more.

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And we have not had any, any of the

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freshwater stingrays coming out in any of

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the surveys that we're doing. And so

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we're doing quite interesting surveys

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01:10:26,625 --> 01:10:28,708
across multiple river basins.

275
01:10:29,250 --> 01:10:32,208
We are finding other nursery sites, for

276
01:10:32,208 --> 01:10:35,875
example, for hammerhead species and even

277
01:10:35,875 --> 01:10:38,291
bull sharks. So we're going to be

278
01:10:38,291 --> 01:10:40,458
expanding our, yeah, we're going to be

279
01:10:40,458 --> 01:10:42,458
expanding our whole project in that

280
01:10:42,458 --> 01:10:46,041
entire region to a host of other species.

281
01:10:46,875 --> 01:10:49,833
So now with the sawfish, they you've

282
01:10:49,833 --> 01:10:53,083
identified this area, are they, are you

283
01:10:53,083 --> 01:10:55,375
looking to try to develop some protective

284
01:10:55,375 --> 01:10:57,333
areas with the government in that area?

285
01:10:57,333 --> 01:11:01,500
So it's interesting because what we found

286
01:11:01,500 --> 01:11:04,208
is that if the fishers and so these are

287
01:11:04,208 --> 01:11:06,541
some of the data that we've taken up, if

288
01:11:06,541 --> 01:11:08,250
the fishers get to the sawfish pretty

289
01:11:08,250 --> 01:11:11,041
quickly and they're incentivized to check

290
01:11:11,041 --> 01:11:13,125
their nets more, and there is a bonus

291
01:11:13,125 --> 01:11:14,708
scheme that we're working with, because

292
01:11:14,708 --> 01:11:16,583
these animals are so rare we can afford

293
01:11:16,583 --> 01:11:17,333
to work on a bonus scheme.

294
01:11:17,375 --> 01:11:21,791
Then you'll check your nets more

295
01:11:21,791 --> 01:11:26,208
frequently and the mortality is much

296
01:11:26,208 --> 01:11:28,250
reduced. And in fact, what we're finding

297
01:11:28,250 --> 01:11:33,625
now is we're having a over 90% survival

298
01:11:33,625 --> 01:11:36,625
rate of the sawfish on the

299
01:11:36,625 --> 01:11:39,000
nets. Yes. And it used to be 60.

300
01:11:39,375 --> 01:11:44,625
And then with the bonus, then it seems

301
01:11:44,625 --> 01:11:48,083
edged up and edged up. And what we're

302
01:11:48,083 --> 01:11:51,083
seeing also is that the fishers

303
01:11:51,083 --> 01:11:53,333
themselves have said, we would like to

304
01:11:53,333 --> 01:11:56,416
see these the species protected, we know

305
01:11:56,416 --> 01:11:57,333
how to take them out of nets, etc. We get a bonus for it.

306
01:11:57,375 --> 01:12:04,208
We, you know, we're recognized for what

307
01:12:04,208 --> 01:12:06,250
we're doing. And now they're women folk

308
01:12:06,250 --> 01:12:09,166
are also part of the project. And they're

309
01:12:09,166 --> 01:12:11,833
creating some of this incredible sawfish

310
01:12:11,833 --> 01:12:13,666
artisanary, which I'm

311
01:12:13,666 --> 01:12:15,166
showing you right now.

312
01:12:20,458 --> 01:12:21,416
And this is a very interesting version of

313
01:12:21,416 --> 01:12:24,583
the sawfish. But it's taken off, we make

314
01:12:24,583 --> 01:12:26,916
really big ones that take sometimes two

315
01:12:26,916 --> 01:12:29,708
months to make. And this is on native

316
01:12:29,708 --> 01:12:31,875
grasses that are hand dyed with organic

317
01:12:31,875 --> 01:12:34,166
dyes and all the rest anyway, all to say

318
01:12:34,166 --> 01:12:35,666
that now you know the whole family is

319
01:12:35,666 --> 01:12:38,625
getting in on the sawfish, what I'm, I

320
01:12:38,625 --> 01:12:39,833
like to call the river guardians.

321
01:12:42,333 --> 01:12:45,416
And I would love to see sawfish protected

322
01:12:45,416 --> 01:12:48,625
as a species throughout Panama. And that

323
01:12:48,625 --> 01:12:51,666
proposal is in front of the Ministry for

324
01:12:51,666 --> 01:12:54,250
Environment and also with the Department

325
01:12:54,250 --> 01:12:57,333
of Fisheries with support from the

326
01:12:57,333 --> 01:12:59,833
fishers who are catching the sawfish.

327
01:13:02,333 --> 01:13:02,583
And so, you know, we've also been

328
01:13:02,583 --> 01:13:05,833
formally invited to be part of the

329
01:13:05,833 --> 01:13:08,208
reconformed National Shark and Ray

330
01:13:08,208 --> 01:13:10,750
Committee. And that is, again, where we

331
01:13:10,750 --> 01:13:14,833
will be proposing this, this protection.

332
01:13:15,083 --> 01:13:18,083
Yeah, absolutely. So the vision, the

333
01:13:18,083 --> 01:13:20,375
vision is that we get

334
01:13:20,375 --> 01:13:21,750
this national protection.

335
01:13:24,333 --> 01:13:38,333
And so really basically, this yeah,

336
01:13:40,708 --> 01:13:41,000
that'll be visual, the vision is the

337
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:44,166
and especially tag. So I'm training a lot

338
01:13:44,166 --> 01:13:46,125
of the fishers in how to actually

339
01:13:46,125 --> 01:13:49,041
conduct the monitoring and the tagging

340
01:13:49,041 --> 01:13:51,958
science as well. What are the chances

341
01:13:51,958 --> 01:13:53,791
that the policy can go through for that

342
01:13:53,791 --> 01:13:55,500
protection? Do you find like... I think

343
01:13:55,500 --> 01:13:57,875
very strong. Yeah, I think you're dealing

344
01:13:57,875 --> 01:14:01,291
with them before. I think very strong. I

345
01:14:01,291 --> 01:14:02,875
had met with the Minister for Environment

346
01:14:02,875 --> 01:14:04,333
during the World Conservation

347
01:14:04,333 --> 01:14:07,250
Congress and he was absolutely thrilled

348
01:14:07,250 --> 01:14:10,416
by this idea of having them be

349
01:14:10,458 --> 01:14:13,500
an iconic species of protection and

350
01:14:13,500 --> 01:14:16,250
especially if you have local support for

351
01:14:16,250 --> 01:14:19,625
it. I think that's huge. Yeah. And being

352
01:14:19,625 --> 01:14:22,000
able to be one of the first countries to

353
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:24,541
show recovery of such a critically

354
01:14:24,541 --> 01:14:26,666
threatened or critically endangered

355
01:14:26,708 --> 01:14:30,541
species is a massive feather in anybody's

356
01:14:30,541 --> 01:14:33,375
cap. Yeah. Do you think the

357
01:14:33,958 --> 01:14:36,375
bonus for the incentive for the fishers

358
01:14:36,375 --> 01:14:39,583
to get at the sawfish faster, is

359
01:14:39,583 --> 01:14:42,333
that a sustainable program for the long

360
01:14:42,333 --> 01:14:44,166
term or is that more of a short term?

361
01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:47,666
So it's interesting because the short

362
01:14:47,666 --> 01:14:50,791
answer is I think yes. When you consider

363
01:14:50,791 --> 01:14:54,208
it's not a huge bonus but at the same

364
01:14:54,208 --> 01:14:56,208
time you need to have it be large

365
01:14:56,208 --> 01:14:58,916
enough to warrant people wanting to go

366
01:14:58,916 --> 01:15:00,458
and check their nets a bit more

367
01:15:00,458 --> 01:15:02,958
frequently and to be able to release

368
01:15:02,958 --> 01:15:06,291
them. Right now small sawfish, there is

369
01:15:06,333 --> 01:15:10,000
still illegal trade for sawfish parts and

370
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:12,625
so we have to combat that as well and

371
01:15:12,833 --> 01:15:16,708
we know that people are after the teeth

372
01:15:16,708 --> 01:15:20,916
or after the rostra and the teeth are

373
01:15:20,916 --> 01:15:24,833
used in chicken fights, cockfighting.

374
01:15:25,125 --> 01:15:26,125
Cockfights, cockfighting.

375
01:15:26,375 --> 01:15:29,041
Cockfights, absolutely and we have people

376
01:15:29,041 --> 01:15:30,708
who are stalking some of our Facebook

377
01:15:31,708 --> 01:15:34,166
posts and all the rest trying to figure

378
01:15:34,166 --> 01:15:35,708
out where they can go

379
01:15:35,708 --> 01:15:36,833
to the source to get.

380
01:15:36,833 --> 01:15:37,666
Wow, really?

381
01:15:37,958 --> 01:15:38,500
Roster, yes.

382
01:15:40,833 --> 01:15:42,750
When you went into some of the villages

383
01:15:42,750 --> 01:15:44,916
there, do you see a lot of roster from

384
01:15:44,916 --> 01:15:46,250
generations that they just

385
01:15:46,250 --> 01:15:47,916
save there for curios and stuff?

386
01:15:49,166 --> 01:15:52,583
So it's interesting. Nobody seems to have

387
01:15:52,583 --> 01:15:55,083
any big rostra around,

388
01:15:55,083 --> 01:15:55,958
especially in the communities

389
01:15:56,083 --> 01:15:58,333
where we're working. So it's very likely

390
01:15:58,333 --> 01:16:00,041
that those got sold off.

391
01:16:00,791 --> 01:16:05,416
Yeah. And then I was given a small rostra

392
01:16:05,416 --> 01:16:06,666
that you see behind.

393
01:16:09,791 --> 01:16:12,625
And even in this one, somebody came in

394
01:16:12,625 --> 01:16:14,041
and said, hey, can I take

395
01:16:14,041 --> 01:16:15,208
a couple of these teeth?

396
01:16:16,208 --> 01:16:16,625
Oh, wow.

397
01:16:16,625 --> 01:16:19,041
So the guy wouldn't give him the rostra

398
01:16:19,041 --> 01:16:21,250
but he allowed him to

399
01:16:21,250 --> 01:16:22,625
chop out some of the teeth.

400
01:16:23,125 --> 01:16:26,791
So there's still a desire even with such

401
01:16:26,791 --> 01:16:28,416
tiny little teeth. And

402
01:16:28,416 --> 01:16:30,416
occasionally you actually even

403
01:16:30,416 --> 01:16:32,500
see these for sale on Facebook

404
01:16:32,500 --> 01:16:36,625
marketplace along with hawksbill talents

405
01:16:36,625 --> 01:16:37,541
that they're using in

406
01:16:37,541 --> 01:16:40,291
cock, yes, in cockfighting. And this is

407
01:16:40,291 --> 01:16:41,125
just on Facebook

408
01:16:41,125 --> 01:16:45,125
marketplace openly visible in Panama.

409
01:16:45,666 --> 01:16:47,666
So cockfighting is a pretty

410
01:16:47,666 --> 01:16:50,000
prevalent thing in Panama.

411
01:16:51,541 --> 01:16:54,708
Apparently more than I, than you. Yeah,

412
01:16:54,708 --> 01:16:56,416
right. Yeah, which is interesting,

413
01:16:56,416 --> 01:16:58,625
because it affects ocean animals too,

414
01:16:58,625 --> 01:16:59,833
because of the weapons

415
01:16:59,833 --> 01:17:01,916
that they use to. Yeah, it is

416
01:17:01,916 --> 01:17:04,708
because I mean, okay, selfish are not

417
01:17:04,708 --> 01:17:06,250
protected yet. But

418
01:17:06,250 --> 01:17:08,791
hawksbills are. And what you're seeing

419
01:17:08,958 --> 01:17:12,458
is you're seeing, as I mentioned, a host

420
01:17:12,458 --> 01:17:13,500
of different things that

421
01:17:13,500 --> 01:17:15,416
are being sold with hawksbill

422
01:17:16,416 --> 01:17:20,125
scutes. And unfortunately, people are

423
01:17:20,125 --> 01:17:21,875
even highlighting the

424
01:17:21,875 --> 01:17:23,500
fact that they're true and

425
01:17:23,500 --> 01:17:26,000
genuine. Oh, wow. So they're just out

426
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:27,291
there like saying it, even

427
01:17:27,291 --> 01:17:27,875
though they're protected.

428
01:17:28,208 --> 01:17:30,541
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, you know, I have

429
01:17:30,541 --> 01:17:31,750
many, many pictures. I

430
01:17:31,750 --> 01:17:33,541
know all the costs and yeah,

431
01:17:33,833 --> 01:17:36,333
I had no idea the hawksbills were also on

432
01:17:36,333 --> 01:17:37,375
there. I mean, I just I just

433
01:17:37,375 --> 01:17:38,208
learned a few years ago that

434
01:17:38,250 --> 01:17:41,916
the sawfish roster were were the teeth

435
01:17:41,916 --> 01:17:43,416
were used for the Oh, yes.

436
01:17:43,666 --> 01:17:45,750
Yeah, because I was a kid growing

437
01:17:45,750 --> 01:17:47,916
up here, we used to go watch the cock

438
01:17:47,916 --> 01:17:49,333
fights on Saturday nights.

439
01:17:49,333 --> 01:17:50,583
It was big, you know, the

440
01:17:51,125 --> 01:17:53,791
Mexican community here used to love doing

441
01:17:53,791 --> 01:17:54,500
their having their cock

442
01:17:54,500 --> 01:17:55,916
fights. And these just be up

443
01:17:55,916 --> 01:17:57,541
the street from where I live. And I had

444
01:17:57,541 --> 01:17:59,083
no idea they that's what

445
01:17:59,083 --> 01:18:01,000
they use. I was 12 years old,

446
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:03,125
but it was, of course, yeah. But it was

447
01:18:03,125 --> 01:18:04,375
just amazing to think

448
01:18:04,375 --> 01:18:05,250
like all these years later,

449
01:18:05,291 --> 01:18:06,666
it's like, really, that's what they use

450
01:18:06,666 --> 01:18:07,458
them for. And then the

451
01:18:07,458 --> 01:18:09,208
hawksbill, that's a new one for me.

452
01:18:09,208 --> 01:18:11,666
Now I had no flipping idea. Absolutely.

453
01:18:12,041 --> 01:18:13,666
Well, Dave, I'll send you, Dave and

454
01:18:13,666 --> 01:18:14,500
Andrew, I'll send you

455
01:18:14,875 --> 01:18:17,791
some pictures of the, they call it a

456
01:18:17,791 --> 01:18:21,291
stucco with all the little, oh, yeah,

457
01:18:21,625 --> 01:18:22,666
little cock fighting.

458
01:18:23,416 --> 01:18:25,458
Yeah. Yeah. We have other things. Yes.

459
01:18:25,625 --> 01:18:26,458
The other spots, little

460
01:18:26,458 --> 01:18:28,125
weapons. Yeah. Apparently,

461
01:18:28,125 --> 01:18:30,083
Peru is another real hotspot for the cock

462
01:18:30,083 --> 01:18:31,375
fighting because, because a

463
01:18:31,375 --> 01:18:32,791
lot of stuff goes, and I found

464
01:18:32,791 --> 01:18:34,625
out from the Peruvian store and Peru.

465
01:18:35,375 --> 01:18:36,791
Yeah. When I was there, when I

466
01:18:36,791 --> 01:18:38,041
was there two years ago, like

467
01:18:38,083 --> 01:18:40,750
their year, yeah, year, two years ago, I,

468
01:18:40,750 --> 01:18:41,916
they were, they were talking about the

469
01:18:41,916 --> 01:18:43,000
sawfish that had been

470
01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:45,958
caught in Ecuador. And they took off the

471
01:18:45,958 --> 01:18:47,375
roster because it was like

472
01:18:47,375 --> 01:18:48,291
first one that caught like

473
01:18:48,958 --> 01:18:51,250
20 years or something. And it was so

474
01:18:51,250 --> 01:18:53,750
valuable for the, for the roster for the

475
01:18:53,750 --> 01:18:54,916
cock fighting stuff.

476
01:18:54,916 --> 01:18:56,708
And it was, and it got shipped to Ecuador

477
01:18:56,708 --> 01:18:58,291
or it was caught in Ecuador,

478
01:18:58,291 --> 01:18:59,166
but got shipped to Peru for

479
01:18:59,833 --> 01:19:02,333
processing to make, to make the, make

480
01:19:02,333 --> 01:19:05,166
those. So Panama is, is one of three

481
01:19:05,166 --> 01:19:06,166
countries where we're

482
01:19:06,166 --> 01:19:08,791
really checking to see kind of where it's

483
01:19:08,791 --> 01:19:10,166
off if selfish are still

484
01:19:10,166 --> 01:19:12,500
extent and the two other

485
01:19:12,500 --> 01:19:14,625
countries are Belize and Honduras. And so

486
01:19:14,625 --> 01:19:16,541
I'd done a lot of surveys

487
01:19:16,541 --> 01:19:18,958
years ago, looking at whether

488
01:19:18,958 --> 01:19:21,166
people had seen any sawfish recently. So

489
01:19:21,166 --> 01:19:23,416
we've got an idea of when the last

490
01:19:23,416 --> 01:19:24,708
sawfish was seen in each

491
01:19:24,750 --> 01:19:27,500
of these countries. And in Belize, you

492
01:19:27,500 --> 01:19:29,750
know, people hadn't seen that there

493
01:19:29,750 --> 01:19:33,625
weren't any verifiable records of

494
01:19:33,625 --> 01:19:38,666
sawfish in when I did those surveys

495
01:19:38,666 --> 01:19:43,000
before 2010, it was around two, it had

496
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:45,583
been 10 years, 15 years or more and

497
01:19:45,583 --> 01:19:48,666
large tooth sawfish hadn't been seen in

498
01:19:48,666 --> 01:19:55,916
30 or 40 years. So in Honduras, they had

499
01:19:55,916 --> 01:19:57,750
been seen more recently. In fact, we did

500
01:19:57,750 --> 01:20:00,083
a whole survey in the Mosquito all

501
01:20:00,083 --> 01:20:02,208
throughout Honduras and in the Pacific.

502
01:20:02,958 --> 01:20:05,500
Yeah. And Pacific nothing in the

503
01:20:05,541 --> 01:20:09,458
Mosquito. Absolutely. Several people had

504
01:20:09,458 --> 01:20:14,833
actually noted sawfish more recently. So

505
01:20:14,833 --> 01:20:16,541
then I followed this up

506
01:20:16,541 --> 01:20:19,833
with EDNA. So in about

507
01:20:19,916 --> 01:20:23,125
21 was at 2018 or so I did a whole bunch

508
01:20:23,125 --> 01:20:27,000
of EDNA work. And sure enough, Darien was

509
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:28,291
very much highlighted

510
01:20:28,291 --> 01:20:30,916
as a site with still

511
01:20:31,458 --> 01:20:37,083
or 2019, 2018, 2019, with extant sawfish.

512
01:20:37,333 --> 01:20:38,750
And of course, now we have the proof with

513
01:20:38,750 --> 01:20:40,833
all the captures and more. Yeah, in

514
01:20:40,833 --> 01:20:43,750
Honduras, same thing, lots of positives,

515
01:20:43,750 --> 01:20:46,958
again, in La Mosquitia. So we know that

516
01:20:46,958 --> 01:20:49,625
the sawfish are there, because their

517
01:20:49,625 --> 01:20:52,041
lagoons, more fresh water, very likely

518
01:20:52,041 --> 01:20:53,708
are going to be the large-toothed

519
01:20:53,708 --> 01:20:55,500
sawfish, because we just had a primer for

520
01:20:55,500 --> 01:20:58,083
both sawfish species that you can find in

521
01:20:58,083 --> 01:20:58,708
Central America,

522
01:20:58,708 --> 01:21:00,375
especially on the Caribbean coast,

523
01:21:00,708 --> 01:21:05,625
and then in Belize, this is what blew our

524
01:21:05,625 --> 01:21:10,041
socks up, because we have deployed over

525
01:21:10,041 --> 01:21:12,625
80,000 hooks, so many scientific long

526
01:21:12,625 --> 01:21:15,083
lines, so many people have used gillnets

527
01:21:15,083 --> 01:21:17,166
until about five years ago when we

528
01:21:17,166 --> 01:21:19,791
managed to get those banned actually,

529
01:21:19,791 --> 01:21:22,375
first big nation to get gillnets banned

530
01:21:22,375 --> 01:21:23,958
in their territorial waters.

531
01:21:24,708 --> 01:21:31,166
And we have signals, positive signals

532
01:21:31,166 --> 01:21:34,500
that sawfish are still alive in Belize.

533
01:21:35,333 --> 01:21:37,791
Somehow, I have no idea how, because

534
01:21:37,791 --> 01:21:39,500
we've never seen one, we've never caught

535
01:21:39,500 --> 01:21:43,541
one, never on a bruv or anything. But our

536
01:21:43,541 --> 01:21:45,416
colleagues who are processing the EDNA

537
01:21:45,416 --> 01:21:46,750
samples said, oh yeah, these are

538
01:21:46,750 --> 01:21:49,250
definitely positives. And from two ends

539
01:21:49,250 --> 01:21:51,583
of the country too,

540
01:21:51,583 --> 01:21:52,375
which is very interesting.

541
01:21:53,416 --> 01:21:56,375
They're pretty habitats, because they

542
01:21:56,375 --> 01:21:59,375
really, mangrove areas are really

543
01:21:59,375 --> 01:22:00,083
important for their

544
01:22:00,083 --> 01:22:01,916
survival, their life cycle.

545
01:22:01,916 --> 01:22:04,791
Yeah, estuarine, mangrove, riverine,

546
01:22:05,083 --> 01:22:07,958
large kind of deeper rivers they like,

547
01:22:08,250 --> 01:22:08,791
especially if they're

548
01:22:08,791 --> 01:22:10,500
large animals. Yeah.

549
01:22:11,416 --> 01:22:13,333
The large ones, are they there year round

550
01:22:13,333 --> 01:22:16,125
or do they move around and they go to

551
01:22:16,125 --> 01:22:17,375
certain areas? Well, obviously you got the one nursery area.

552
01:22:17,416 --> 01:22:20,333
So we don't know here, that's the thing

553
01:22:20,333 --> 01:22:22,791
we don't know. And what we're trying to

554
01:22:22,791 --> 01:22:26,333
figure out next is the movement patterns

555
01:22:26,333 --> 01:22:29,333
for these juveniles. So we're going to be

556
01:22:29,333 --> 01:22:30,958
doing, yeah, we're going to be doing some

557
01:22:30,958 --> 01:22:33,791
acoustic tagging, a little bit too small

558
01:22:33,791 --> 01:22:35,375
for maybe fat tagging.

559
01:22:35,416 --> 01:22:38,208
And, you know, there's a lot of fallen

560
01:22:38,208 --> 01:22:39,833
branches and everything. And we just

561
01:22:39,833 --> 01:22:43,000
don't want them ripping up their fins and

562
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:44,583
stuff. After all, they are critically

563
01:22:44,583 --> 01:22:46,708
endangered species. We need to really

564
01:22:46,708 --> 01:22:48,291
take care of them very well.

565
01:22:48,291 --> 01:22:51,125
And so the whole aspect of handling and

566
01:22:51,125 --> 01:22:53,958
care and ethics has been absolutely top

567
01:22:53,958 --> 01:22:54,375
number one with fishes.

568
01:22:55,416 --> 01:22:58,125
Now, it seems like the Caribbean side,

569
01:22:58,125 --> 01:22:59,791
you're finding some little sort of rays

570
01:22:59,791 --> 01:23:02,583
of hope on that side on the Pacific side.

571
01:23:02,833 --> 01:23:04,750
It's pretty barren. You're not finding

572
01:23:04,750 --> 01:23:05,625
much of anything in

573
01:23:05,625 --> 01:23:06,750
terms of selfish, are you?

574
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:10,291
So these are all on the Pacific side. Oh,

575
01:23:10,291 --> 01:23:12,625
these are on. Okay. Okay. So the Darien

576
01:23:12,625 --> 01:23:15,458
and this whole riverine system is giving

577
01:23:15,458 --> 01:23:18,833
into the Pacific. Okay. Some other areas.

578
01:23:19,166 --> 01:23:22,375
Yeah, absolutely. So, um, uh,

579
01:23:22,416 --> 01:23:26,916
And this is where we need to expand the

580
01:23:26,916 --> 01:23:29,666
search for the adults because clearly

581
01:23:29,666 --> 01:23:32,250
I've had folks who've shared some

582
01:23:32,250 --> 01:23:34,875
sightings of much larger animals. And in

583
01:23:34,875 --> 01:23:40,083
fact, 10 years ago, so nine years ago, we

584
01:23:40,083 --> 01:23:43,583
did have, um, we didn't have a fisher.

585
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:44,375
You're going to love this story.

586
01:23:44,416 --> 01:23:48,250
I'm in a yellow taxi in Panama City. We

587
01:23:48,250 --> 01:23:51,208
get chatting. He's the cousin of a

588
01:23:51,208 --> 01:23:53,083
fisherman who lives in blah, blah, blah.

589
01:23:53,500 --> 01:23:56,583
We talk about sawfish and all the rest.

590
01:23:56,583 --> 01:23:58,333
And he goes, Oh, you know, I think we

591
01:23:58,333 --> 01:24:00,500
used to have them in our river. Some time

592
01:24:00,500 --> 01:24:01,500
ago, I go, here's my

593
01:24:01,500 --> 01:24:02,375
card. Here's our sticker.

594
01:24:02,416 --> 01:24:05,083
Here's our sticker. Tell me, you know,

595
01:24:05,083 --> 01:24:06,375
get get in touch. If ever there's

596
01:24:06,375 --> 01:24:09,208
anything, you know, next thing you know,

597
01:24:09,208 --> 01:24:11,208
I'm actually out of the country, but

598
01:24:11,208 --> 01:24:14,333
Megan, our national coordinator is like,

599
01:24:14,333 --> 01:24:16,166
Rachel, I just got a call from a fisher.

600
01:24:16,166 --> 01:24:19,541
They just landed a three meter sawfish in

601
01:24:19,541 --> 01:24:22,833
this river system facing the Pacific. I

602
01:24:22,833 --> 01:24:26,041
said, drop everything, get on a bus, tell

603
01:24:26,041 --> 01:24:28,416
him not to cut everything up, keep stuff

604
01:24:28,416 --> 01:24:30,375
for you and all the rest. She got there.

605
01:24:30,375 --> 01:24:31,208
Unfortunately, the guy had

606
01:24:31,208 --> 01:24:32,375
thrown away a lot of stuff.

607
01:24:32,416 --> 01:24:35,875
Already, but there was still some, there

608
01:24:35,875 --> 01:24:39,208
was still some pieces of the fillet

609
01:24:39,208 --> 01:24:41,666
pieces of the skin and stuff. And of

610
01:24:41,666 --> 01:24:43,750
course, the rostrum, which the guy did

611
01:24:43,750 --> 01:24:47,583
not want to give away. And, but it, we

612
01:24:47,583 --> 01:24:49,166
were, she got quite a bit of data from

613
01:24:49,166 --> 01:24:51,500
it. And that was also how we did a little

614
01:24:51,500 --> 01:24:54,000
control test for the people doing the

615
01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:58,833
EDNA work, because 2017, I guess, because

616
01:24:58,833 --> 01:25:00,541
we did a control test and a bucket of

617
01:25:00,541 --> 01:25:01,375
water. And I remember them coming back to me.

618
01:25:01,416 --> 01:25:02,708
I remember them coming back to me going,

619
01:25:02,708 --> 01:25:05,458
this is a really strong signal. Where was

620
01:25:05,458 --> 01:25:08,166
this? You definitely have sawfish here. I

621
01:25:08,166 --> 01:25:09,750
didn't want to say, yeah, it's a bucket.

622
01:25:10,125 --> 01:25:13,916
It's in the bucket. But it just shows

623
01:25:13,916 --> 01:25:17,291
that those larger animals are then it

624
01:25:17,291 --> 01:25:19,708
seems moving maybe across

625
01:25:19,708 --> 01:25:22,375
multiple estuaries. Yeah.

626
01:25:22,416 --> 01:25:24,791
Well, you know, we know we had, this

627
01:25:24,791 --> 01:25:25,916
might be something, you know, we had

628
01:25:25,916 --> 01:25:29,000
Diego Cardenosa on last year and he, you

629
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:30,458
know, he talked about lots of areas in

630
01:25:30,458 --> 01:25:33,000
Columbia that you can't, you can't go to.

631
01:25:33,000 --> 01:25:34,791
And I know Ecuador is the same way and

632
01:25:34,791 --> 01:25:36,375
Peru, just because of the drug trade.

633
01:25:37,416 --> 01:25:38,833
And you just can't go there. It's just,

634
01:25:38,833 --> 01:25:41,541
it's super dangerous to go there. And so

635
01:25:41,541 --> 01:25:42,833
do you think these might be sort of these

636
01:25:42,833 --> 01:25:44,583
lifeboats for some of these things like

637
01:25:44,583 --> 01:25:46,041
the sawfish in these areas? Oh,

638
01:25:46,375 --> 01:25:48,166
absolutely. Because if it's not, you

639
01:25:48,166 --> 01:25:51,500
know, discarded ordinance and bombs or,

640
01:25:51,500 --> 01:25:53,708
you know, dangerous migrate, migrate

641
01:25:53,708 --> 01:25:56,250
migration routes, then it's a drug trade.

642
01:25:56,833 --> 01:25:59,375
And there are certain areas where I have

643
01:25:59,375 --> 01:26:01,791
learned over the course of my 28 years in

644
01:26:01,791 --> 01:26:03,375
this sector that you just don't go to.

645
01:26:03,416 --> 01:26:06,541
Or if you go to you need to make the

646
01:26:06,541 --> 01:26:08,458
right relationships and let people know

647
01:26:08,458 --> 01:26:10,958
that you have absolutely, you have no

648
01:26:10,958 --> 01:26:13,250
intention of talking to anybody, etc. And

649
01:26:13,250 --> 01:26:14,541
this is what you're going to be doing.

650
01:26:14,541 --> 01:26:17,166
And in fact, that has gotten out of us

651
01:26:17,166 --> 01:26:19,500
out of trouble in a couple of instances,

652
01:26:19,500 --> 01:26:22,583
because when you work locally with

653
01:26:22,583 --> 01:26:26,750
fishers locally and others, they will be

654
01:26:26,750 --> 01:26:29,000
the ones who say, you know what, maybe

655
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:31,375
tonight, we don't sample over there.

656
01:26:31,458 --> 01:26:36,708
And you go, I understand, please know

657
01:26:36,708 --> 01:26:40,000
that we will be sampling 180 degrees in

658
01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:43,250
the opposite direction. Lights at night,

659
01:26:43,708 --> 01:26:47,250
let whoever needs to know. Yeah, no. And

660
01:26:47,250 --> 01:26:50,125
it's those kinds of things. And also, and

661
01:26:50,125 --> 01:26:52,166
there was an alert at one point, because

662
01:26:52,166 --> 01:26:54,250
I had revealed the scale of the shark

663
01:26:54,250 --> 01:26:55,958
fishery between Belize and Guatemala.

664
01:26:56,416 --> 01:26:58,666
And there were Guatemalan fishers and

665
01:26:58,666 --> 01:27:00,541
Belizean fishers who basically said you

666
01:27:00,541 --> 01:27:03,125
cannot travel to Guatemala in the near

667
01:27:03,125 --> 01:27:05,583
future. You cannot go to Guatemala,

668
01:27:06,041 --> 01:27:10,416
because you have really pissed off some

669
01:27:10,416 --> 01:27:13,416
people. So for three to four years, I did

670
01:27:13,416 --> 01:27:14,166
not go to Guatemala.

671
01:27:15,625 --> 01:27:18,541
But you wouldn't know that and they don't

672
01:27:18,541 --> 01:27:20,541
play. They don't know you still live in

673
01:27:20,541 --> 01:27:22,500
Guatemala. I know exactly. And I used to

674
01:27:22,500 --> 01:27:24,625
live in Honduras. You don't you know,

675
01:27:24,625 --> 01:27:26,416
when you when you get that, that's a

676
01:27:26,416 --> 01:27:29,750
that's a kind enough heads up. Yeah,

677
01:27:30,208 --> 01:27:32,416
don't mess with that. But that is another

678
01:27:32,416 --> 01:27:35,000
reason why you work to democratize

679
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:37,333
science, you work locally, because at the

680
01:27:37,333 --> 01:27:40,041
end of the day, if it doesn't suit people

681
01:27:40,041 --> 01:27:42,416
locally who will be the ones at the front

682
01:27:42,416 --> 01:27:44,166
lines determining whether or not they're

683
01:27:44,166 --> 01:27:44,375
going to sample over there.

684
01:27:44,416 --> 01:27:45,708
And if you have to steward these species,

685
01:27:45,708 --> 01:27:50,000
ensure that laws are upheld or more, then

686
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:53,500
don't bother. Yeah, no, I think it's I

687
01:27:53,500 --> 01:27:55,500
think we're learning that across the

688
01:27:55,500 --> 01:27:57,541
world now, you know, in conservation,

689
01:27:58,000 --> 01:28:00,125
right, where can't just come in parachute

690
01:28:00,125 --> 01:28:01,375
in and parachute out with

691
01:28:01,375 --> 01:28:02,916
with the data and not share it.

692
01:28:04,416 --> 01:28:04,791
And that's what you have to do. And you have to have a communication action done

693
01:28:04,791 --> 01:28:06,750
through that you have to you have to work

694
01:28:06,750 --> 01:28:08,291
with the local people and make sure they

695
01:28:08,291 --> 01:28:10,500
they get by and make sure they're they're

696
01:28:10,500 --> 01:28:12,708
part of the project too, right? You talk

697
01:28:12,708 --> 01:28:13,875
about it all the time, Rachel, they're

698
01:28:13,875 --> 01:28:14,708
all there. A lot of them

699
01:28:14,708 --> 01:28:15,583
are part of the project.

700
01:28:18,416 --> 01:28:19,750
And so you're looking down and developing

701
01:28:19,750 --> 01:28:22,041
the project together. And that's how you

702
01:28:22,041 --> 01:28:25,208
find out. That's that's taking it more

703
01:28:25,208 --> 01:28:29,083
steps. And it's really and you're finding

704
01:28:29,083 --> 01:28:31,583
out what are the needs. So the reason why

705
01:28:31,583 --> 01:28:34,666
we started looking at doing a baseline

706
01:28:34,666 --> 01:28:36,666
for the fisheries riverine fisheries is

707
01:28:36,666 --> 01:28:39,458
because fishers were saying, you know,

708
01:28:39,458 --> 01:28:41,333
when you have these conversations, what

709
01:28:41,333 --> 01:28:43,125
what are some of your biggest challenges?

710
01:28:43,125 --> 01:28:44,083
Where'd you get your protein

711
01:28:44,083 --> 01:28:45,375
form? How do you? How do you?

712
01:28:45,416 --> 01:28:48,833
How do you maintain your family, pay your

713
01:28:48,833 --> 01:28:50,791
bills and all the rest? That's when a lot

714
01:28:50,791 --> 01:28:52,708
of these things are coming out that

715
01:28:52,708 --> 01:28:56,458
basically, um, they're reliant on one or

716
01:28:56,458 --> 01:28:58,958
two species, that one or two species is

717
01:28:58,958 --> 01:29:01,083
becoming scarce or having to shift to

718
01:29:01,083 --> 01:29:02,791
other species, but now they're terribly

719
01:29:02,791 --> 01:29:04,333
worried. They're seeing shifts because of

720
01:29:04,333 --> 01:29:06,833
climate change. I mean, all of this comes

721
01:29:06,833 --> 01:29:10,416
out. And then the question is, is would

722
01:29:10,416 --> 01:29:13,125
you like to figure out what's happening?

723
01:29:13,500 --> 01:29:14,375
And we can do it together? Yep. And that's what we're doing.

724
01:29:14,416 --> 01:29:21,791
Yeah, makes sense on both sides too,

725
01:29:21,791 --> 01:29:24,125
right? Yeah, yeah, you definitely got it.

726
01:29:24,125 --> 01:29:25,750
Yeah, me. No, otherwise, you cannot work

727
01:29:25,750 --> 01:29:27,291
anywhere these places like you're going.

728
01:29:27,833 --> 01:29:29,791
If you didn't have that didn't, didn't

729
01:29:29,791 --> 01:29:32,291
want to, I wouldn't want to. It's a Yeah,

730
01:29:32,291 --> 01:29:35,000
it's it. I definitely wouldn't want to.

731
01:29:35,291 --> 01:29:37,500
And it's so much richer and trying to

732
01:29:37,500 --> 01:29:40,250
come up with, you know, kind of a cro

733
01:29:40,250 --> 01:29:41,375
created solution to what's going on. And to be honest, I mean, I think that's a really good question.

734
01:29:41,416 --> 01:29:43,750
Yeah, solution to what's going on. And to

735
01:29:43,750 --> 01:29:45,666
be honest, I mean, sometimes they were

736
01:29:45,666 --> 01:29:47,791
like, Oh, selfish. Yeah, we get selfish

737
01:29:47,791 --> 01:29:50,083
occasionally, etc. And when I put it into

738
01:29:50,083 --> 01:29:52,250
perspective, and I've given several

739
01:29:52,250 --> 01:29:53,666
presentations and talks in the

740
01:29:53,666 --> 01:29:57,333
communities, etc. And, and I said, I want

741
01:29:57,333 --> 01:30:01,708
you guys to know how unbelievably special

742
01:30:01,708 --> 01:30:04,458
your situation is. I said, I've had the

743
01:30:04,458 --> 01:30:05,875
privilege of being able to work in a lot

744
01:30:05,875 --> 01:30:07,250
of different countries, I have been

745
01:30:07,250 --> 01:30:10,375
looking for selfish for 25 years plus, but I've never looked at it.

746
01:30:10,416 --> 01:30:10,750
But I think if you're having a little

747
01:30:10,750 --> 01:30:12,583
less than 20 years plus, and you guys

748
01:30:12,583 --> 01:30:14,625
still have them, the majority of the

749
01:30:14,625 --> 01:30:17,750
world no longer has these animals. So it

750
01:30:17,750 --> 01:30:22,125
really is up to you. And the reason why

751
01:30:22,125 --> 01:30:23,833
we want to look into it is because it is

752
01:30:23,833 --> 01:30:25,583
a global priority, or we're going to lose

753
01:30:25,583 --> 01:30:29,083
an animal that can reach 23 feet in

754
01:30:29,083 --> 01:30:31,000
length, we can reach our present, we can

755
01:30:31,000 --> 01:30:34,458
lose our present day dragons. Yeah, yeah.

756
01:30:38,416 --> 01:30:39,083
I always kind of thought

757
01:30:39,083 --> 01:30:40,000
if there was one species

758
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:41,083
I could see going

759
01:30:41,083 --> 01:30:43,333
extinct in our lifetime,

760
01:30:43,333 --> 01:30:44,666
it'd be the sawfish.

761
01:30:45,250 --> 01:30:47,750
They just go down so quickly.

762
01:30:48,791 --> 01:30:51,000
But right now, Australia and the US,

763
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:51,875
the only two places where

764
01:30:51,875 --> 01:30:53,875
you got a bit of a lifeboat,

765
01:30:53,875 --> 01:30:55,333
as you say, for these things left,

766
01:30:55,333 --> 01:30:55,916
but everywhere else,

767
01:30:55,916 --> 01:30:57,041
they're just getting hammered.

768
01:30:57,791 --> 01:30:59,208
So this brings me full circle

769
01:30:59,416 --> 01:31:01,416
to one of the questions that Andrew had,

770
01:31:01,416 --> 01:31:02,375
which is the policies.

771
01:31:03,166 --> 01:31:04,958
So one of the things that we've seen is

772
01:31:05,125 --> 01:31:06,291
if we're going to try

773
01:31:06,291 --> 01:31:07,791
and restore populations

774
01:31:08,291 --> 01:31:10,375
of fish of marine megafauna,

775
01:31:10,583 --> 01:31:11,958
one of the things that we have to do is

776
01:31:11,958 --> 01:31:14,000
we have to reduce fishing effort.

777
01:31:14,500 --> 01:31:15,958
We have to make it more equitable.

778
01:31:16,416 --> 01:31:18,041
Making it equitable is, well, if you're

779
01:31:18,041 --> 01:31:19,125
using a hook and line

780
01:31:19,208 --> 01:31:20,375
versus a net that has a

781
01:31:20,375 --> 01:31:21,625
hundred times the effort,

782
01:31:22,333 --> 01:31:25,208
you know, that's where you need to look

783
01:31:25,208 --> 01:31:27,041
in terms of making things more equitable.

784
01:31:27,583 --> 01:31:29,291
So there have to be

785
01:31:29,291 --> 01:31:31,375
some hard choices also.

786
01:31:32,500 --> 01:31:35,000
And we've all we're already seeing this

787
01:31:35,000 --> 01:31:36,375
will probably be this.

788
01:31:36,416 --> 01:31:38,083
I'm very excited. This will probably be

789
01:31:38,083 --> 01:31:39,875
yet another episode with you guys,

790
01:31:40,708 --> 01:31:43,083
because we need these stories of hope to

791
01:31:43,083 --> 01:31:43,875
know that some of these

792
01:31:43,875 --> 01:31:46,041
policies are actually working.

793
01:31:46,041 --> 01:31:47,125
Are these working? Are

794
01:31:47,125 --> 01:31:48,125
these policies working?

795
01:31:48,625 --> 01:31:49,541
The gill net ban and

796
01:31:49,541 --> 01:31:51,041
believes is it actually working?

797
01:31:51,500 --> 01:31:53,666
We are actually getting signals.

798
01:31:53,666 --> 01:31:55,875
So we're trying to quantify those signals

799
01:31:55,875 --> 01:31:58,791
of restoration of some of the populations

800
01:31:59,666 --> 01:32:01,000
because of the gill net ban.

801
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:02,000
And what does that do?

802
01:32:02,583 --> 01:32:04,375
That then inspires others to

803
01:32:04,375 --> 01:32:05,916
think, well, if they can do it,

804
01:32:06,708 --> 01:32:07,791
we can do it.

805
01:32:08,000 --> 01:32:10,333
Maybe not everywhere all at once.

806
01:32:10,541 --> 01:32:10,750
Right.

807
01:32:11,125 --> 01:32:15,666
But parts in areas like we know that this

808
01:32:15,666 --> 01:32:17,000
sawfish aggregate in

809
01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:18,208
this particular area,

810
01:32:18,875 --> 01:32:22,250
could we maybe just not set at this time

811
01:32:22,250 --> 01:32:23,541
of the year in this

812
01:32:23,541 --> 01:32:25,500
place knowing that or.

813
01:32:25,500 --> 01:32:26,416
And then see how it goes.

814
01:32:27,000 --> 01:32:27,291
Yeah.

815
01:32:27,291 --> 01:32:27,875
See how it goes.

816
01:32:28,125 --> 01:32:28,333
Yeah.

817
01:32:28,458 --> 01:32:30,458
You hit on a great point about you got to

818
01:32:30,458 --> 01:32:31,875
show some positive results.

819
01:32:32,458 --> 01:32:32,833
Absolutely.

820
01:32:33,375 --> 01:32:34,083
As I call them happy

821
01:32:34,083 --> 01:32:35,083
stories, but something.

822
01:32:35,375 --> 01:32:37,416
So people see that there's okay.

823
01:32:37,416 --> 01:32:39,166
If we do this, take these steps, it can

824
01:32:39,166 --> 01:32:40,625
work rather than just

825
01:32:40,625 --> 01:32:41,750
always a constant doom and

826
01:32:41,750 --> 01:32:42,000
glow.

827
01:32:42,875 --> 01:32:43,083
Absolutely.

828
01:32:43,791 --> 01:32:44,000
Yeah.

829
01:32:44,291 --> 01:32:46,208
Anyway, well, Rachel has been another

830
01:32:46,208 --> 01:32:47,458
awesome show with you here.

831
01:32:47,750 --> 01:32:49,166
We're definitely look like you'll be back

832
01:32:49,166 --> 01:32:51,875
again for saying some more.

833
01:32:52,208 --> 01:32:53,625
You might get the point.

834
01:32:53,625 --> 01:32:55,000
I have to make you like a co-host here.

835
01:32:55,000 --> 01:32:55,541
I think so.

836
01:32:55,791 --> 01:32:56,333
I think so.

837
01:32:57,000 --> 01:33:01,500
And just to get on here, but thank you so

838
01:33:01,500 --> 01:33:02,333
much for coming on

839
01:33:02,333 --> 01:33:03,625
and sharing your sawfish

840
01:33:03,791 --> 01:33:05,500
story and we'll definitely want to follow

841
01:33:05,500 --> 01:33:07,291
up more as this progresses to see how

842
01:33:07,291 --> 01:33:09,791
it's going and what happens with that

843
01:33:09,791 --> 01:33:10,833
with the whole with

844
01:33:10,833 --> 01:33:11,625
the whole story there.

845
01:33:11,875 --> 01:33:12,833
So thank you very much.

846
01:33:13,041 --> 01:33:14,333
Thank you so much, Rachel.

847
01:33:14,333 --> 01:33:14,958
We appreciate it.

848
01:33:14,958 --> 01:33:15,458
Thank you, Dave.

849
01:33:15,500 --> 01:33:16,416
Thank you, Andrew.

850
01:33:16,416 --> 01:33:18,541
It's such a pleasure to be able to be on

851
01:33:18,541 --> 01:33:19,583
this podcast with you.

852
01:33:19,583 --> 01:33:21,750
And again, so many questions to answer.

853
01:33:21,750 --> 01:33:22,416
It's exciting.

854
01:33:22,791 --> 01:33:24,416
You know, curiosity, discovery.

855
01:33:24,666 --> 01:33:25,541
Love it.

856
01:33:25,541 --> 01:33:26,833
Well, it seems like it's been said drive

857
01:33:26,833 --> 01:33:28,541
us and it seems like Mar a lines is doing

858
01:33:28,541 --> 01:33:30,625
quite a lot of work like

859
01:33:30,625 --> 01:33:31,916
all over the Central America.

860
01:33:32,208 --> 01:33:33,125
And I think in the Americas.

861
01:33:33,166 --> 01:33:33,625
It's awesome.

862
01:33:33,875 --> 01:33:37,041
So I like to say I speak for myself, but

863
01:33:37,041 --> 01:33:39,000
I think probably Mar Alliance in general,

864
01:33:39,000 --> 01:33:40,750
we're a little bit like Greg Norman.

865
01:33:41,083 --> 01:33:43,541
Do you remember Greg Norman, the golfer?

866
01:33:43,541 --> 01:33:44,041
Yeah, yeah.

867
01:33:44,041 --> 01:33:47,375
Attage was he's called the shark, right?

868
01:33:47,708 --> 01:33:49,708
Yeah, his favorite adage was I bite off

869
01:33:49,708 --> 01:33:50,750
more than I can chew

870
01:33:50,750 --> 01:33:51,875
and I chew like hell.

871
01:33:52,458 --> 01:33:53,291
I'd say that that

872
01:33:53,291 --> 01:33:55,125
should be on my tombstone.

873
01:33:58,541 --> 01:33:59,791
Well, you're doing great work.

874
01:33:59,791 --> 01:34:00,041
We do.

875
01:34:00,041 --> 01:34:00,833
We do appreciate it.

876
01:34:00,875 --> 01:34:02,166
We appreciate you coming on the podcast

877
01:34:02,166 --> 01:34:03,583
to share it with us all the time.

878
01:34:03,583 --> 01:34:04,791
So we thank you, Andrew.

879
01:34:05,083 --> 01:34:05,541
Thanks, Dave.

880
01:34:05,958 --> 01:34:06,291
It's a pleasure.

881
01:34:06,500 --> 01:34:07,791
Thank you, Rachel, for joining us on

882
01:34:07,791 --> 01:34:09,166
today's episode of

883
01:34:09,166 --> 01:34:10,041
the Beyond Jaws podcast.

884
01:34:10,250 --> 01:34:12,375
It was great to have you back on and to

885
01:34:12,375 --> 01:34:13,833
talk about these wonderful studies that

886
01:34:13,833 --> 01:34:15,291
you've been a part of and that Mar

887
01:34:15,291 --> 01:34:16,958
Alliance has been a part of Dave.

888
01:34:17,250 --> 01:34:17,833
What were your thoughts

889
01:34:17,833 --> 01:34:19,708
overall on the interview?

890
01:34:20,000 --> 01:34:22,250
Like I mean to be in such a dangerous

891
01:34:22,250 --> 01:34:23,958
area to having such a

892
01:34:23,958 --> 01:34:25,458
beautiful discovery.

893
01:34:26,416 --> 01:34:27,333
What's your take on that stuff?

894
01:34:27,375 --> 01:34:30,583
You've had experiences with traveling in

895
01:34:30,583 --> 01:34:33,000
certain places and being in areas where

896
01:34:33,000 --> 01:34:35,791
probably maybe you shouldn't have been or

897
01:34:35,791 --> 01:34:38,291
you get caught up as someone who doesn't

898
01:34:38,291 --> 01:34:39,958
know the area or you're working with

899
01:34:39,958 --> 01:34:41,500
people in the area to say, hey, don't go

900
01:34:41,500 --> 01:34:42,333
in that area because

901
01:34:42,333 --> 01:34:43,125
it could be dangerous.

902
01:34:43,500 --> 01:34:45,125
But then you get these benefits, these

903
01:34:45,125 --> 01:34:45,541
environmental

904
01:34:45,541 --> 01:34:47,458
benefits when you have this.

905
01:34:47,583 --> 01:34:48,916
Like what are your thoughts on this?

906
01:34:49,250 --> 01:34:52,541
Well, yeah, you know, people have heard

907
01:34:52,541 --> 01:34:53,916
me talk about this and some of the recent

908
01:34:53,916 --> 01:34:55,541
projects I've been on.

909
01:34:56,000 --> 01:34:57,333
You need to work with and I was to say

910
01:34:57,333 --> 01:34:58,791
you have to work with local people there.

911
01:34:59,041 --> 01:35:01,416
You have to local researchers,

912
01:35:01,750 --> 01:35:02,916
conservationists, scientists.

913
01:35:03,416 --> 01:35:04,958
You know, you just cannot go into a lot

914
01:35:04,958 --> 01:35:06,208
of these areas on your own because it

915
01:35:06,208 --> 01:35:07,333
won't end well for you.

916
01:35:07,333 --> 01:35:09,458
And this is area she was talking about is

917
01:35:09,458 --> 01:35:11,000
a particularly dangerous area.

918
01:35:11,791 --> 01:35:13,750
And, you know, she really basically got

919
01:35:13,750 --> 01:35:16,000
to have your contacts and they're going

920
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:17,083
there and gather up the

921
01:35:17,083 --> 01:35:18,125
information and stuff.

922
01:35:18,125 --> 01:35:18,291
Right.

923
01:35:18,833 --> 01:35:21,458
If you go in there, it probably won't end

924
01:35:21,458 --> 01:35:23,458
well for you, you know, unless, you know,

925
01:35:23,458 --> 01:35:25,791
so and you've got to so that's a really

926
01:35:25,791 --> 01:35:27,041
important thing to recognize.

927
01:35:27,333 --> 01:35:29,500
But she has a good relationships with the

928
01:35:29,500 --> 01:35:30,708
people there, which is

929
01:35:30,708 --> 01:35:32,000
ultimate bottom line.

930
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:33,250
You have to have a good relationships

931
01:35:33,250 --> 01:35:34,875
with the people there who are able to go

932
01:35:34,875 --> 01:35:36,458
in there and gather a lot of information,

933
01:35:36,458 --> 01:35:37,416
get a lot of the data there.

934
01:35:37,958 --> 01:35:38,833
And it's a fascinating.

935
01:35:38,875 --> 01:35:39,916
It's fascinating discovery.

936
01:35:40,041 --> 01:35:42,041
It's almost it turns out you have an

937
01:35:42,041 --> 01:35:45,541
action, an unintended marine protected

938
01:35:45,541 --> 01:35:47,166
area because nobody else is going to go

939
01:35:47,166 --> 01:35:48,625
in there to like try to get the sawfish.

940
01:35:49,250 --> 01:35:49,625
Right.

941
01:35:49,625 --> 01:35:50,833
Because it's too dangerous for them.

942
01:35:51,375 --> 01:35:53,041
And so you so in other words, it's like,

943
01:35:53,041 --> 01:35:55,458
yeah, you could put in some policies to

944
01:35:55,458 --> 01:35:56,458
kind of protect the area.

945
01:35:56,458 --> 01:35:58,583
But in a way, it's already pretty heavily

946
01:35:58,583 --> 01:36:01,375
protected, literally armed protected now.

947
01:36:01,625 --> 01:36:03,000
So yeah, what else

948
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:04,250
what else you could do?

949
01:36:04,250 --> 01:36:06,291
It's it's the best enforcement you can

950
01:36:06,291 --> 01:36:07,875
get, but for the wrong reasons.

951
01:36:07,958 --> 01:36:08,250
Exactly.

952
01:36:08,583 --> 01:36:10,291
I know what I mean.

953
01:36:10,291 --> 01:36:12,208
Yeah, but no, but it was besides the

954
01:36:12,208 --> 01:36:13,291
exciting of the discovery.

955
01:36:13,291 --> 01:36:14,791
It was it's fascinating to hear.

956
01:36:14,791 --> 01:36:16,291
I think again, people that don't do this

957
01:36:16,291 --> 01:36:18,666
type of research or work in these parts

958
01:36:18,666 --> 01:36:20,833
of the world, it really emphasized that

959
01:36:20,833 --> 01:36:22,250
you need to have good relations with the

960
01:36:22,250 --> 01:36:23,666
local people there you're working with.

961
01:36:23,875 --> 01:36:24,666
Yeah, if you're going to try

962
01:36:24,666 --> 01:36:25,791
to try to do anything there.

963
01:36:26,083 --> 01:36:28,125
And and I was an exciting discovery.

964
01:36:28,125 --> 01:36:29,833
I yeah, you know, like I said, when she

965
01:36:29,833 --> 01:36:31,958
brought it up, we had her on to talk

966
01:36:31,958 --> 01:36:33,416
about Tiger Sharks a few weeks ago, like

967
01:36:33,416 --> 01:36:35,000
this sort of came up and I was like,

968
01:36:35,000 --> 01:36:36,416
yeah, oh, this we got to have her on to

969
01:36:36,416 --> 01:36:37,250
talk about this one.

970
01:36:37,541 --> 01:36:38,500
And and she didn't

971
01:36:38,500 --> 01:36:39,708
disappoint. That's for sure.

972
01:36:40,000 --> 01:36:41,666
That's for sure. Well, I think what's

973
01:36:41,666 --> 01:36:43,833
interesting, too, for a lot of the people

974
01:36:43,833 --> 01:36:45,000
who are listening to this, who want to

975
01:36:45,000 --> 01:36:47,625
get in shark research, they're still, you

976
01:36:47,625 --> 01:36:48,208
know, we've talked about

977
01:36:48,208 --> 01:36:49,000
this a lot of episodes.

978
01:36:49,000 --> 01:36:50,583
There's still so much to know about

979
01:36:50,583 --> 01:36:53,000
sharks and discover about all different

980
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:54,625
types of species about sharks.

981
01:36:54,625 --> 01:36:56,875
You know, Rachel brought some great Tiger

982
01:36:56,875 --> 01:36:57,708
Shark in the news

983
01:36:57,708 --> 01:36:58,916
last time she was on now.

984
01:36:58,916 --> 01:37:01,500
She's bringing, you know, this this

985
01:37:01,500 --> 01:37:04,333
information, you know, about about this,

986
01:37:04,333 --> 01:37:06,041
this shark is selfish, right?

987
01:37:06,083 --> 01:37:08,791
And so it's interesting how

988
01:37:08,791 --> 01:37:10,708
all these things come about.

989
01:37:10,958 --> 01:37:12,500
But like, I should also mention, we

990
01:37:12,500 --> 01:37:13,791
should also mention that like Rachel

991
01:37:13,791 --> 01:37:16,125
lives in Panama, you know, like she she's

992
01:37:16,125 --> 01:37:17,916
entrenched in the community there.

993
01:37:17,916 --> 01:37:20,333
She is part of the community now that's

994
01:37:20,333 --> 01:37:21,041
been living there for

995
01:37:21,041 --> 01:37:22,166
a very, very long time.

996
01:37:22,625 --> 01:37:23,708
And so she understands

997
01:37:23,708 --> 01:37:26,375
the dynamics of the country.

998
01:37:26,583 --> 01:37:27,125
She understands the

999
01:37:27,125 --> 01:37:28,416
dynamic of the local communities.

1000
01:37:28,791 --> 01:37:30,208
She's have she has a lot of experience.

1001
01:37:30,541 --> 01:37:33,041
She works, you know, she employs some of

1002
01:37:33,041 --> 01:37:34,583
the people from Panama and then other

1003
01:37:34,583 --> 01:37:35,250
places where they work,

1004
01:37:35,250 --> 01:37:36,583
whether it be Mexico,

1005
01:37:37,000 --> 01:37:38,875
Belize and Honduras and so forth.

1006
01:37:39,458 --> 01:37:41,000
I think that's an important part.

1007
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:43,041
It's not as if, you know, Rachel and her

1008
01:37:43,041 --> 01:37:45,166
team are just coming in and saying, hey,

1009
01:37:45,166 --> 01:37:46,458
you need to do this, this and this.

1010
01:37:46,875 --> 01:37:48,708
This is this is something that she

1011
01:37:48,708 --> 01:37:50,208
probably had a conversation with somebody

1012
01:37:50,208 --> 01:37:51,791
and they said, hey, you know what?

1013
01:37:51,791 --> 01:37:53,166
We've seen these sharks here before.

1014
01:37:53,958 --> 01:37:54,750
Okay, let's see how we

1015
01:37:54,750 --> 01:37:56,041
can how we can discover.

1016
01:37:56,041 --> 01:37:57,625
And I think for people who are listening

1017
01:37:57,625 --> 01:37:58,833
to this, we always mentioned that the

1018
01:37:58,833 --> 01:38:00,208
young people in there

1019
01:38:00,208 --> 01:38:01,458
who are listening to this.

1020
01:38:01,458 --> 01:38:04,000
It's important that you work with local

1021
01:38:04,000 --> 01:38:06,125
communities when you do this type of

1022
01:38:06,125 --> 01:38:07,666
research or when you're trying to do this

1023
01:38:07,666 --> 01:38:10,208
discovery to go in on your own one can be

1024
01:38:10,208 --> 01:38:12,375
very, very dangerous and without knowing

1025
01:38:12,375 --> 01:38:14,291
the lay of the land or the lay of the

1026
01:38:14,291 --> 01:38:16,166
water and the community in the culture.

1027
01:38:16,625 --> 01:38:19,041
And to you get more responses.

1028
01:38:19,041 --> 01:38:20,708
You get better studies when

1029
01:38:20,708 --> 01:38:22,041
you work with local communities.

1030
01:38:22,375 --> 01:38:25,291
It is absolutely critical to do this and

1031
01:38:25,291 --> 01:38:27,625
Marlines is a great example of the way they work with that.

1032
01:38:27,666 --> 01:38:29,166
And I think, you know, we

1033
01:38:29,166 --> 01:38:30,916
had Rachel on a few years ago.

1034
01:38:30,916 --> 01:38:33,000
Yeah, we can find we could post up the

1035
01:38:33,000 --> 01:38:34,375
her episodes, tell her whole story.

1036
01:38:34,375 --> 01:38:36,208
But she has a whole her whole career.

1037
01:38:36,208 --> 01:38:38,166
She didn't just one day wake up inside.

1038
01:38:38,166 --> 01:38:38,791
She's going to go to

1039
01:38:38,791 --> 01:38:40,208
Panama and do this stuff.

1040
01:38:40,208 --> 01:38:41,875
She her whole career has been working in

1041
01:38:41,875 --> 01:38:43,250
a lot of these developing countries.

1042
01:38:43,250 --> 01:38:43,541
Right.

1043
01:38:44,166 --> 01:38:44,583
She's spent a couple

1044
01:38:44,583 --> 01:38:46,666
of years in Madagascar.

1045
01:38:47,208 --> 01:38:48,333
She's worked in North Africa.

1046
01:38:49,166 --> 01:38:50,916
And so she's just you learn from

1047
01:38:50,916 --> 01:38:52,541
experience doing that when you start out

1048
01:38:52,541 --> 01:38:54,375
as a young person and

1049
01:38:54,375 --> 01:38:55,583
and you just sort of learn.

1050
01:38:55,583 --> 01:38:56,750
And that's like if you're a young person

1051
01:38:56,750 --> 01:38:57,041
starting out and you want to be a young person.

1052
01:38:57,041 --> 01:39:05,125
And you can always talk to someone like

1053
01:39:05,125 --> 01:39:06,750
Rachel or myself or other

1054
01:39:06,750 --> 01:39:09,250
people can give you some guidance.

1055
01:39:09,500 --> 01:39:10,750
I mean, I know I think with Rachel, I

1056
01:39:10,750 --> 01:39:12,208
know with me, you just kind of got thrown

1057
01:39:12,208 --> 01:39:13,166
into the deep end real

1058
01:39:13,166 --> 01:39:14,458
quick, but you learn.

1059
01:39:23,458 --> 01:39:26,875
There's finally I�ve found out here.

1060
01:39:26,875 --> 01:39:31,041
culture is already

1061
01:39:31,041 --> 01:39:32,458
huge is actually awesome.

1062
01:39:32,458 --> 01:39:39,791
It's like Occupy, and it's somehow planning.

1063
01:39:39,791 --> 01:39:40,000
First of all, we say we'd like to do something.

1064
01:39:42,458 --> 01:39:43,458
I think if she wants to work with

1065
01:39:43,458 --> 01:39:43,625
somebody else, she's naturalized her life

1066
01:39:43,625 --> 01:39:43,958
and I encourage her to say

1067
01:39:43,958 --> 01:39:47,250
some of the end of the day.

1068
01:39:47,250 --> 01:39:48,500
I like. So you mentioned, you know, right, I

1069
01:39:48,500 --> 01:39:48,791
mean, Goine at certain times she just said, I Integrated.

1070
01:39:48,791 --> 01:39:50,125
We kind of understand how such works compete with people like that.

1071
01:39:50,166 --> 01:39:51,791
their episode. Rachel is one of the first

1072
01:39:51,791 --> 01:39:52,500
people I talked to

1073
01:39:52,500 --> 01:39:53,083
because I know she lived

1074
01:39:53,083 --> 01:39:55,291
there for two years and she gave me some

1075
01:39:55,291 --> 01:39:57,291
real good insight into

1076
01:39:57,291 --> 01:40:00,250
where to look in Madagascar.

1077
01:40:00,833 --> 01:40:04,583
So anyway, it's a good training ground,

1078
01:40:04,833 --> 01:40:05,583
especially a young person

1079
01:40:05,583 --> 01:40:06,541
you want, especially you got

1080
01:40:06,541 --> 01:40:08,708
a little bit of an adventurous side to

1081
01:40:08,708 --> 01:40:09,750
you. It can be

1082
01:40:09,750 --> 01:40:13,250
fascinating to go try and work in

1083
01:40:13,250 --> 01:40:14,625
some of these places and learn about,

1084
01:40:14,625 --> 01:40:15,375
learn about the, you also

1085
01:40:15,375 --> 01:40:16,083
learn about the cultures

1086
01:40:16,708 --> 01:40:17,833
of the world. Absolutely. First hand,

1087
01:40:17,833 --> 01:40:18,375
there's nothing you're

1088
01:40:18,375 --> 01:40:19,083
going to be able to read in

1089
01:40:19,083 --> 01:40:20,458
the book or watching a movie or see on

1090
01:40:20,458 --> 01:40:22,833
YouTube. No, it's amazing to experience.

1091
01:40:23,125 --> 01:40:24,041
So yeah, absolutely.

1092
01:40:24,333 --> 01:40:25,583
It was great to have Rachel on this would

1093
01:40:25,583 --> 01:40:26,375
probably not be the

1094
01:40:26,375 --> 01:40:27,541
last time she is on if

1095
01:40:27,708 --> 01:40:29,625
no, the way she does the, her work and

1096
01:40:29,625 --> 01:40:30,500
the way her Marlines

1097
01:40:30,500 --> 01:40:31,291
does their work. We might

1098
01:40:31,291 --> 01:40:33,166
have some, I mean, Ivy's been on as well.

1099
01:40:33,166 --> 01:40:33,625
Who's part of the

1100
01:40:33,625 --> 01:40:35,750
Marlines and, and so we'll,

1101
01:40:35,750 --> 01:40:37,375
we'll probably have some more people on

1102
01:40:37,375 --> 01:40:38,625
to, to highlight some of

1103
01:40:38,625 --> 01:40:39,333
the studies they've done

1104
01:40:39,333 --> 01:40:41,500
there. And if people want their studies

1105
01:40:41,500 --> 01:40:43,333
on and, and they want,

1106
01:40:43,333 --> 01:40:43,916
they're interested in

1107
01:40:43,958 --> 01:40:45,625
being on the podcast to talk about their

1108
01:40:45,625 --> 01:40:47,375
experiences in shark

1109
01:40:47,375 --> 01:40:48,416
science and their careers

1110
01:40:48,416 --> 01:40:50,250
in shark science that we may or may not

1111
01:40:50,250 --> 01:40:51,000
know. I mean, Dave

1112
01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:52,750
knows a lot of people within

1113
01:40:53,041 --> 01:40:54,791
the shark science industry and most of

1114
01:40:54,791 --> 01:40:55,750
the people that he's

1115
01:40:55,750 --> 01:40:56,958
knows are on the podcast.

1116
01:40:56,958 --> 01:40:58,875
I know a few more as well. But if you're

1117
01:40:58,875 --> 01:40:59,458
interested in talking

1118
01:40:59,458 --> 01:41:00,291
about your research,

1119
01:41:00,541 --> 01:41:01,875
either you've been on before or you

1120
01:41:01,875 --> 01:41:03,291
haven't been on yet hit

1121
01:41:03,291 --> 01:41:04,916
Dave up at lost shark guy,

1122
01:41:04,916 --> 01:41:06,750
what that's on Instagram, Instagram,

1123
01:41:06,958 --> 01:41:09,166
Facebook, and, and you can also go

1124
01:41:09,166 --> 01:41:10,166
through the San Jose

1125
01:41:10,166 --> 01:41:12,166
state university to contact me as well as

1126
01:41:12,166 --> 01:41:14,000
the beyond jaws podcast on

1127
01:41:14,000 --> 01:41:16,250
Instagram or on the YouTube.

1128
01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:18,458
You can try to hit us up, hit me up from

1129
01:41:18,458 --> 01:41:20,291
there and catch us and you could, no

1130
01:41:20,291 --> 01:41:21,125
guarantee we'll put you

1131
01:41:21,125 --> 01:41:22,500
on, but if you have something interesting

1132
01:41:22,500 --> 01:41:23,541
you want to share, let us

1133
01:41:23,541 --> 01:41:25,375
know and we'll consider it.

1134
01:41:25,833 --> 01:41:27,958
So, absolutely. Yeah. So, so hit us up

1135
01:41:27,958 --> 01:41:28,958
there beyond just pod on

1136
01:41:28,958 --> 01:41:31,958
Instagram also. And don't forget to

1137
01:41:31,958 --> 01:41:33,708
subscribe to the YouTube channel. And if

1138
01:41:33,708 --> 01:41:34,583
you're, and if you're

1139
01:41:34,583 --> 01:41:35,375
listening to this on your favorite

1140
01:41:35,375 --> 01:41:37,250
podcast app, hit that follow button. So

1141
01:41:37,250 --> 01:41:39,250
you don't miss the next episode. We want

1142
01:41:39,250 --> 01:41:39,916
to thank you so much

1143
01:41:39,958 --> 01:41:41,625
from David and I for joining us on

1144
01:41:41,625 --> 01:41:43,125
today's episode of the beyond jaws

1145
01:41:43,125 --> 01:41:44,541
podcast. Have a great day.

1146
01:41:44,541 --> 01:41:45,125
We'll talk to you next

1147
01:41:45,125 --> 01:41:46,666
time and happy conservation.