Are Orcas Really to Blame for the Missing Great Whites?

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Hey Chris, welcome back

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to the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about sharks?

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Let's get our teeth

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stuck in, ready to go.

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I love it.

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I love it.

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Well, welcome to another episode of the

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Beyond Jaws podcast.

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And today we have a very

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special returning guest.

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We have Chris Fallows, who's a world

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renowned wildlife

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photographer, whose images of breaching

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white sharks have been featured on

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Discovery Channel, Shark

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Week, National Geographic,

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ABC's Planet Earth with David

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Attenborough and numerous

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other sharky programs for over

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the past 35 years.

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Chris has one of those jobs as a wildlife

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photographer that

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everyone studying wildlife

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would love to have sometime.

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Chris is one of our

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first guests actually back.

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He was back last on in August of 2020,

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2022, which is a long time

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ago, which, sorry, Chris,

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we should have had you on much sooner.

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At that time, he stirred up some trouble

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discussing the issues of

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orcas versus white sharks.

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Well, since that time, we decided we had

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to have Chris back on

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the show because he's

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been stirring up more trouble on orcas

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and white sharks, as

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well as he's doing some new

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new work now, doing a lot more

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terrestrial photography

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photography if you want to catch

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up on.

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So, so we thought,

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well, it's long past due.

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Chris, time to have you come back on the

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show and catch up and

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welcome to the show.

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Thanks, Dave.

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I brought my ladle

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with Distur the Pot again.

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So ready to go and happy

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to discuss the issue again.

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Perfect.

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Perfect.

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So, well, why don't just quickly before

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we dive into the

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orchestra, what have you been

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doing with your with your Chris Fowler's

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photography these days?

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Yeah, so thanks for asking.

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So I think, you know, as you mentioned,

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I've lived a very

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charmed and privileged life.

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I've been to all seven continents many,

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many times and worked

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with many of the planet's

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most iconic animals.

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And I've seen many of them, you know,

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become very imperiled along the way.

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There have been some

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good news stories, too.

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But the reality is when you've had such

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an incredible life that's been given to

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you by all these creatures, you need to

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do what you can to give back.

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So through my my final photography, I

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hope to inspire audiences around the

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world as to what incredible creatures we

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have and hope for those that may not have

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the privilege that I've had to become

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passionate about those animals by seeing

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them and, you know, wanting

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to see them for themselves.

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And through the sale of my final artwork,

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my wife, Monique and I, we buy land in

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southern Namibia that we hoping to

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eventually be able to create significant

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wildlife corridors to allow the free

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movement of wildlife in those areas.

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You know, it's a very arid area. It's an

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incredibly beautiful area. It's an area

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that historically had

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much charismatic megafauna.

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And, you know, there are a couple of

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other like minded people in the area and

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we hope to create an area one day of

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maybe somewhere around three to four

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million hectares, which is the size of a

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small European country and bring back

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creatures like lions and elephants to

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these incredibly beautiful landscapes.

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And I'm sure we'll touch on this. But

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what I learned with working with, you

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know, the marine world is that had I been

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able to buy by chunks of the ocean or by

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islands, I might have been able to make a

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significant difference.

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But I couldn't do that. I can do that in

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a terrestrial environment and I can

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control what happens in those lands and I

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can try and protect those animals.

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So that's why, you know, it might seem a

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strange segue for people who know my

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background, having now moved to

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protecting terrestrial landscapes.

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The reality is by virtue of being able to

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protect them ourselves, we can control

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what happens on them.

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So, yeah, you really trying to use the

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images and narrative built up over, you

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know, a long period of time to affect a

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positive change and hopefully in a very

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small way give back to those creatures

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that are given me so much.

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Chris, can I ask you a question in terms

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of your photography? Because I mean, your

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photographs are legendary in many ways.

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And photographers are a bit of a like,

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they're not, they're storytellers in a

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way, they tell their stories

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through the through the images.

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Can I ask you, like, how has your

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storytelling through your images evolved

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since you first started out until, until

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now where you were like, I mean, your

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work, you know, outside of photography,

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or I guess it's all intertwined is very

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conservation focused, obviously, as you

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just mentioned, was that the storyline

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that you were trying to portray when you

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first started? Was that always it or has

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it evolved and how has that evolved?

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Yeah, I love love love kicking off with

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that one. So, you know, when we very

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humbly discovered those famous flying

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great white sharks, it was all about

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creating impact, you know, the world and

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never really seen images like those

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before. So yeah, it was capturing G while

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moments and, you know, essentially trying

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to elicit an emotive response to them.

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But over time, I began to realize that

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there was a lot more to the great white

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than, you know, flying out through the

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air and a big mouthful of teeth. And it

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became a case of trying to integrate the

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environment that the white shark lives in

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into my images. So I started placing a

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lot more of an emphasis on bringing in the greater landscapes.

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I started moving more from shooting with

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long lenses to wider lenses. And then as

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my style, I think progressed, I really

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started putting a strong emphasis on

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bringing art into my work. So focusing on

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elements like clouds and raffled sea

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states shooting into the light and

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creating a lot of emotion with my work

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and then trying to focus on what is

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specific and relevant to that particular

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species. So I started really focusing on the

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most iconic tuskers on the planet and in

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landscapes that really had an artistic

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feel and look to them. And it was the

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same with the white sharks. You know,

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over time, I realized I could get very

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close to these animals. They were never

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about trying to catch me. And I realized

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that right from the beginning. And so I

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started trying to shoot from very low

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angles and really use very wide lenses,

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which allow me to

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creatively use little crafts and

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all sorts of different things to capture

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those images. So yes, and it was really a

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progression from high impact, very fast

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photography to more conceptual

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photography, where I planned an image a

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lot more, went to certain areas at

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certain times of the year to bring in

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those those moody aspects. And yeah, I

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really tried to do the environment that

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the animal lived in

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justice with the animal itself.

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And the story is told through the visual

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aspect of the photograph. Did you ever

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followed up with like an essay or even

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like, you know, in today's world where

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everything is on social media, you have a

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lot of young, you know, young, I guess,

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aspiring photographers who are trying to

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learn the craft and, you know, they're

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trying to tell stories.

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When you're when you do photography, is

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the story told in the image itself? Or do

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you have like an accompanying essay or

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writing or whatever that might be in

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today's world, maybe a post on an

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Instagram phone, who knows, but to get to

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help get the message across? Or is it

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just more of the visual aspect?

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No, you know, once again, yeah, lovely,

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lovely question. It's both. You know, a

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lot of a lot of the works depict the most

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iconic animals on our planet and or

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iconic species, but many of those works

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also depict the most

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iconic of those species.

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So I try and bring that sort of narrative

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into my my imagery. And for example,

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we've got a very privileged ever really

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incredible exhibition at Dubai

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International Airport that has 100

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million people go past it. And they're

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under each image is a story.

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The one exhibition there is called the

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11th hour. And it kind of relates to that

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theme where time is running out for all

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of these animals. And under each image, I

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kind of tell my very humble life story

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working with that particular animal. So

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the narrative is as much about telling

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the story as the image itself is.

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And yeah, I think it's I think it's very,

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very important, you know, to convey the

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right narrative and and there can be no

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better subject to actually uses it uses

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an example than the great white shark,

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you know, in many, many occasions when we

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worked with those animals, they would

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come up and gently mouthed the engine.

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And you could use and construe that in

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two very different ways. You could talk

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about it as I have right now, or you

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could say this crazy creature came up and

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mouth in your son of bite and destroy the

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boat. So, you know, it really is how you

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kind of frame not only the photograph,

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but also the narrative that goes along with it.

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Yeah, I feel like that that latter

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headline is one that's used a lot these

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days, you know, on on social media and on

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the headlines to kind of get people to

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click but it feels like the other one

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that you first started talking about

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seems more of like you have to be patient

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with the message that it may not get the

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the the viral attention that that a lot

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of people seek these days, but you get

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the right attention from the

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right people who want to learn.

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And I feel like that's that's the way to

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go these days is just have that patience

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with your message and you'll find the

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right people the internet's a big place.

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The world's a big place. And if you put

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it in the right places, you'll get the

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attention it deserves. You just have to

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be a little patient with it.

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I wish you could broadcast that to the

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whole world because that's what it's all

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01:17:02,750 --> 01:17:04,958
about. We will. We will. It's on YouTube. It'll be on YouTube.

274
01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:10,500
It's so true what you say, you know, it's

275
01:17:10,500 --> 01:17:12,833
not really about how many hear the

276
01:17:12,833 --> 01:17:14,916
message. It's about who hears the

277
01:17:14,916 --> 01:17:18,333
message. And I think in today's world, so

278
01:17:18,333 --> 01:17:20,041
many people are focused on trying to get

279
01:17:20,041 --> 01:17:22,833
more likes and more followers that in so

280
01:17:22,833 --> 01:17:25,708
many ways are superficial. Yeah, it's

281
01:17:25,708 --> 01:17:27,791
about getting being authentic to

282
01:17:27,791 --> 01:17:29,916
yourself, being authentic to what you

283
01:17:29,916 --> 01:17:32,916
represent and trying to convey certainly

284
01:17:32,916 --> 01:17:34,958
in my case, what I believe the truth is, is that you're not going to be able to get more likes and more followers.

285
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:37,333
And I think that's what I think the truth is about those animals. And yes, it's not

286
01:17:37,333 --> 01:17:38,875
always glossy and it's not always

287
01:17:38,875 --> 01:17:41,375
sensationalized. In most cases, you know,

288
01:17:41,375 --> 01:17:43,625
it's a lot more subtle. And I think if

289
01:17:43,625 --> 01:17:44,958
you look into the depth of those

290
01:17:44,958 --> 01:17:47,000
subtleties, you find the truth and the

291
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:50,541
honest answer about those animals. So I

292
01:17:50,541 --> 01:17:52,541
like to think if people read the

293
01:17:52,541 --> 01:17:54,958
Instagram posts, I do. And I'm not a huge

294
01:17:54,958 --> 01:17:58,875
social media person. But I really try and

295
01:17:58,875 --> 01:18:01,416
bring forward the emotion and privilege

296
01:18:01,416 --> 01:18:03,625
of what it's like to work with an

297
01:18:03,625 --> 01:18:03,958
incredible great white shot.

298
01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:08,250
Or magnificent super tusker or truly

299
01:18:08,250 --> 01:18:10,583
incredible great aviator like a wandering

300
01:18:10,583 --> 01:18:14,208
albatross, you know, and let people live

301
01:18:14,208 --> 01:18:15,833
in that moment that I was so privileged

302
01:18:15,833 --> 01:18:19,833
to have. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Do

303
01:18:19,833 --> 01:18:21,708
you have any particular now moving on

304
01:18:21,708 --> 01:18:24,125
that you're not doing the photo doing the

305
01:18:24,125 --> 01:18:25,625
white sharks as much like some of your

306
01:18:25,625 --> 01:18:26,875
terrestrial stuff. Do you have any

307
01:18:26,875 --> 01:18:28,208
particular place you like to do your

308
01:18:28,208 --> 01:18:29,500
photography at these days?

309
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:33,625
I think, yeah, I mean, we do go to a lot

310
01:18:33,625 --> 01:18:36,583
of places. But with my style, it's very

311
01:18:36,583 --> 01:18:38,625
much about trying to bring art into my

312
01:18:38,625 --> 01:18:41,833
work. So a place like Amber Silly

313
01:18:41,833 --> 01:18:44,875
National Park for for elephants, the

314
01:18:44,875 --> 01:18:47,291
central Kalahari for black mane lions

315
01:18:47,291 --> 01:18:50,875
working off South Africa's west coast for

316
01:18:50,875 --> 01:18:53,750
super pods of humpbacks very moody sort

317
01:18:53,750 --> 01:18:57,041
of style and feel they're going to really

318
01:18:57,041 --> 01:18:59,166
remote places like St.

319
01:18:59,166 --> 01:18:59,958
Andrews Bay for here.

320
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:00,875
And I think that's a huge throngs of

321
01:19:00,875 --> 01:19:03,458
penguins where you have incredible

322
01:19:03,458 --> 01:19:06,291
landscapes behind them. So yeah, the

323
01:19:06,291 --> 01:19:08,583
every place I go to is carefully planned

324
01:19:08,583 --> 01:19:11,083
and specifically at certain types of the

325
01:19:11,083 --> 01:19:12,583
year to create a look and feel to the

326
01:19:12,583 --> 01:19:15,708
works. But having said that, you know, I

327
01:19:15,708 --> 01:19:18,333
certainly won't ever say no to visiting

328
01:19:18,333 --> 01:19:20,083
somewhere more conventional like the

329
01:19:20,083 --> 01:19:22,875
Kruger National Park or or Itosha

330
01:19:22,875 --> 01:19:25,416
National Park because first and foremost,

331
01:19:26,041 --> 01:19:27,625
I love nature and I love animals.

332
01:19:28,375 --> 01:19:30,250
Photography comes as an extension of

333
01:19:30,250 --> 01:19:31,625
that. And sometimes I love just being

334
01:19:31,625 --> 01:19:33,458
there. We were in Matusadona National

335
01:19:33,458 --> 01:19:36,375
Park in Zimbabwe just a few days ago. And

336
01:19:36,375 --> 01:19:38,166
I got I didn't even take my cameras with

337
01:19:38,166 --> 01:19:39,708
on this trip. I just said, you spent your

338
01:19:39,708 --> 01:19:41,583
whole life looking through essentially a

339
01:19:41,583 --> 01:19:43,958
little inch squared viewfinder.

340
01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:46,833
Just go and take the cameras in and I've

341
01:19:46,833 --> 01:19:48,875
got such a kick out of just looking at a

342
01:19:48,875 --> 01:19:50,375
couple of elephants that I've seen

343
01:19:50,375 --> 01:19:52,375
probably a million times in my life

344
01:19:52,375 --> 01:19:55,083
against an incredible thunderstorm and

345
01:19:55,083 --> 01:19:56,208
you know, just enjoying

346
01:19:56,208 --> 01:19:57,541
being in those moments.

347
01:19:57,541 --> 01:19:59,750
And it also inspires you when you can

348
01:19:59,750 --> 01:20:02,458
just look and engross yourself for when

349
01:20:02,458 --> 01:20:04,000
you do cake go and take those

350
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:05,291
photographs, you know, it's kind of like

351
01:20:05,291 --> 01:20:07,666
taking a vitamin C tablet and yeah, just

352
01:20:07,666 --> 01:20:08,958
really feels the passion.

353
01:20:10,000 --> 01:20:11,875
Do you find when you're say at a place

354
01:20:11,875 --> 01:20:14,541
that's like say Kruger National Park,

355
01:20:14,541 --> 01:20:16,541
which is where the animals probably tend

356
01:20:16,541 --> 01:20:18,166
to be a bit more habituated with people

357
01:20:18,166 --> 01:20:19,833
around versus when you go to a more

358
01:20:19,833 --> 01:20:21,708
remote area where the animals probably

359
01:20:21,708 --> 01:20:23,750
haven't or not used to the humans being

360
01:20:23,750 --> 01:20:24,791
around you. Do you find a

361
01:20:24,791 --> 01:20:25,666
difference in the behavior?

362
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:30,916
100% I mean, yeah, look, as a

363
01:20:30,916 --> 01:20:33,000
photographer, it's a hell of a lot easier

364
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:34,750
to work in an environment where animals

365
01:20:34,750 --> 01:20:36,875
are habituated. It's always nice to

366
01:20:36,875 --> 01:20:38,833
photograph the front of them rather than

367
01:20:38,833 --> 01:20:39,708
when they're running away and

368
01:20:39,708 --> 01:20:40,958
you find off their backside.

369
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:44,458
But the reality is, you know, it comes

370
01:20:44,458 --> 01:20:46,208
with a different skill set to work in

371
01:20:46,208 --> 01:20:48,750
harsh environments where animals are

372
01:20:48,750 --> 01:20:50,458
probably not nearly as familiar with

373
01:20:50,458 --> 01:20:52,666
humans and probably my favorite place,

374
01:20:53,125 --> 01:20:54,041
certainly on a terrestrial

375
01:20:54,041 --> 01:20:55,958
level is the central Kalahari.

376
01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:58,750
You know, it's an area that's 55,000

377
01:20:58,750 --> 01:21:02,541
square kilometers. So truly ginormous and

378
01:21:02,541 --> 01:21:04,250
you might be one of only 100 people in

379
01:21:04,250 --> 01:21:06,500
that landscape and the animals. Yeah,

380
01:21:06,500 --> 01:21:09,833
they're not as frequently or not seeing

381
01:21:09,833 --> 01:21:11,916
people nearly as frequently. So it is a

382
01:21:11,916 --> 01:21:12,750
different skill set. You

383
01:21:12,750 --> 01:21:13,666
have to put in the time.

384
01:21:14,333 --> 01:21:15,833
But the beauty is when you find those

385
01:21:15,833 --> 01:21:17,500
animals you are on your own. You can

386
01:21:17,500 --> 01:21:18,958
spend the whole day waiting for that

387
01:21:18,958 --> 01:21:22,666
moment and you can really conceptually

388
01:21:22,666 --> 01:21:24,166
come up with something that's very

389
01:21:24,166 --> 01:21:27,583
special. So yes, the big national parks

390
01:21:27,583 --> 01:21:29,375
are great. And I would suggest anybody

391
01:21:29,375 --> 01:21:31,375
who hasn't been to go and see them and

392
01:21:31,375 --> 01:21:33,375
experience them and have these animals

393
01:21:33,375 --> 01:21:35,375
right next to you. I mean, it's

394
01:21:35,375 --> 01:21:38,416
incredible. But I think it's also a

395
01:21:38,416 --> 01:21:40,250
progression. Once you've had the

396
01:21:40,250 --> 01:21:42,875
privilege of seeing those places, you

397
01:21:42,875 --> 01:21:43,958
kind of seek out these animals.

398
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:45,291
And you can see these truly wild places,

399
01:21:45,791 --> 01:21:46,958
you know, very few of which actually

400
01:21:46,958 --> 01:21:49,125
remain and have those intimate

401
01:21:49,125 --> 01:21:53,583
experiences. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's

402
01:21:53,583 --> 01:21:55,208
that's really neat. Chris, I really I

403
01:21:55,208 --> 01:21:57,541
really enjoy your photography as you

404
01:21:57,541 --> 01:21:59,250
transitioned over now. It's been it been

405
01:21:59,250 --> 01:22:01,916
amazing and thank you. Just seeing and

406
01:22:01,916 --> 01:22:02,708
seeing and seeing have

407
01:22:02,708 --> 01:22:04,000
you transitioned for that.

408
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:06,500
Just sorry, sorry, they just interrupt.

409
01:22:06,500 --> 01:22:08,291
I'm looking at his website as we're as

410
01:22:08,291 --> 01:22:10,125
we're having this this interview and it's

411
01:22:10,125 --> 01:22:12,208
like, I'll be honest, it's breathtaking.

412
01:22:12,666 --> 01:22:15,041
Like, you know, I've just started to get

413
01:22:15,041 --> 01:22:16,541
into photography really understanding,

414
01:22:16,541 --> 01:22:19,125
especially wildlife photography. And it

415
01:22:19,125 --> 01:22:21,458
is absolutely breathtaking. So we'll put

416
01:22:21,458 --> 01:22:23,125
your link in the description. It's

417
01:22:23,125 --> 01:22:25,083
chrisfellas.com. But I highly recommend

418
01:22:25,083 --> 01:22:27,708
anybody to go in and take a look because

419
01:22:27,708 --> 01:22:29,375
you have you've kind of you've you've

420
01:22:29,375 --> 01:22:30,958
oceans, air and earth.

421
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:34,625
You know, and I just they're all just

422
01:22:34,625 --> 01:22:36,208
breathtaking. I've got a lot of detail.

423
01:22:36,208 --> 01:22:38,125
It looks like they're almost drawings in

424
01:22:38,125 --> 01:22:39,625
some of them. Like it's just ridiculous.

425
01:22:40,083 --> 01:22:42,250
So love it. Yeah, I gotta ask you that

426
01:22:42,250 --> 01:22:44,916
your iconic elephant picture here on your

427
01:22:44,916 --> 01:22:49,208
home page. How did you get? I mean, I've

428
01:22:49,208 --> 01:22:51,208
seen I've been up close to elephants, but

429
01:22:51,208 --> 01:22:53,333
I'm like, I'm looking at that gone. Okay,

430
01:22:53,333 --> 01:22:54,958
how the hell did you get that one with

431
01:22:54,958 --> 01:22:57,500
them? Yeah, that's a very special one. So

432
01:22:57,500 --> 01:22:58,541
that photograph is

433
01:22:58,541 --> 01:22:59,958
actually called Defiance.

434
01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:04,041
And the name embodies what that animal

435
01:23:04,041 --> 01:23:05,916
has had to go through. So that's an

436
01:23:05,916 --> 01:23:09,583
incredible female tusker. You know, the

437
01:23:09,583 --> 01:23:11,958
very few elephants left like that on our

438
01:23:11,958 --> 01:23:13,916
planet that have these incredible tasks,

439
01:23:14,625 --> 01:23:16,875
especially a female like that. So she's,

440
01:23:17,125 --> 01:23:19,625
you know, by virtue of that, defied the

441
01:23:19,625 --> 01:23:22,250
poachers snare and the hunters gun, that

442
01:23:22,250 --> 01:23:24,000
environment in which that photograph was

443
01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:24,958
taken is incredibly harsh.

444
01:23:25,000 --> 01:23:29,166
That matriarch has to cross a lake that's

445
01:23:29,166 --> 01:23:31,375
about 20 kilometers long. It has not even

446
01:23:31,375 --> 01:23:33,916
a blade of grass. So she has to get her

447
01:23:33,916 --> 01:23:35,708
heard sometimes with very small elephants

448
01:23:35,708 --> 01:23:37,750
across that. And then with ever

449
01:23:37,750 --> 01:23:39,625
diminishing resources, particularly in

450
01:23:39,625 --> 01:23:41,375
that environment, that's Ambiseti where

451
01:23:41,375 --> 01:23:43,791
the shrinking crown of Kilimanjaro that

452
01:23:43,791 --> 01:23:45,916
nourishes all of those landscapes and

453
01:23:45,916 --> 01:23:46,958
provides water is also shrinking.

454
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:50,916
So she's been kind of defined in every

455
01:23:50,916 --> 01:23:54,333
effort to to kind of wipe her out. And

456
01:23:54,333 --> 01:23:56,708
yeah, it's you know, it takes a lot of

457
01:23:56,708 --> 01:23:58,500
time and patience have been there many

458
01:23:58,500 --> 01:24:01,208
times been probably quite a few months of

459
01:24:01,208 --> 01:24:03,625
my life there. And I'm not just trying to

460
01:24:03,625 --> 01:24:05,958
take a photograph of any animal in that

461
01:24:05,958 --> 01:24:08,541
herd. So you're trying to get close

462
01:24:08,541 --> 01:24:09,625
enough to focus

463
01:24:09,625 --> 01:24:12,958
specifically on that one iconic animal.

464
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:14,875
And that's really what is so special

465
01:24:14,875 --> 01:24:17,000
about that photograph is it's it's not

466
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:19,291
just blending of those two almost

467
01:24:19,291 --> 01:24:21,708
visceral landscapes. It's having the most

468
01:24:21,708 --> 01:24:25,125
iconic animal as your as your your prime

469
01:24:25,125 --> 01:24:28,166
example. So yeah, very that was a very,

470
01:24:28,166 --> 01:24:30,958
very special moment and a true privilege

471
01:24:30,958 --> 01:24:31,750
to be in the company

472
01:24:31,750 --> 01:24:32,958
of a creature like that.

473
01:24:33,416 --> 01:24:35,208
Yeah, and those listening if you haven't

474
01:24:35,208 --> 01:24:37,333
checked it, check out Chris fouls.com.

475
01:24:37,333 --> 01:24:39,666
It's a cover image or the elephant. It's

476
01:24:39,666 --> 01:24:41,666
just it's really striking. It's just it

477
01:24:41,666 --> 01:24:43,583
just it just really jumps out and it's

478
01:24:43,583 --> 01:24:45,041
Andrew said almost looks like a drawing.

479
01:24:45,041 --> 01:24:46,958
It's so just wants to come

480
01:24:46,958 --> 01:24:47,958
right out of the photograph.

481
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:50,083
Yeah, I'm not a detail and everything.

482
01:24:50,375 --> 01:24:52,666
Yeah, it's just like a lot of them are

483
01:24:52,666 --> 01:24:54,333
like they're black and white photos. But

484
01:24:54,333 --> 01:24:56,916
to see the contrast from the elephant to

485
01:24:56,916 --> 01:24:59,041
the clouds behind is just it's

486
01:24:59,041 --> 01:25:01,916
phenomenal. I love it. I just want what I

487
01:25:01,916 --> 01:25:03,166
think I noticed a lot of your stuff is

488
01:25:03,166 --> 01:25:05,375
black and white and which is a kind of an

489
01:25:05,375 --> 01:25:07,416
art form. I kind of thought was left back

490
01:25:07,416 --> 01:25:08,958
in the seventies or so.

491
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:16,458
When those of us around. Yeah, I know.

492
01:25:17,000 --> 01:25:19,208
That's what I say. But it but it's real

493
01:25:19,208 --> 01:25:20,916
the black and white. It really is. It can

494
01:25:20,916 --> 01:25:22,458
be quite striking a lot of the black and

495
01:25:22,458 --> 01:25:25,666
white images versus the color and that

496
01:25:25,666 --> 01:25:28,083
that's a I noticed you do. You do a lot

497
01:25:28,083 --> 01:25:29,833
of the black and white. Yeah, it's

498
01:25:29,833 --> 01:25:32,000
timeless. It's got a class all of its own

499
01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:35,000
and it's uncomplicated. And I think

500
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:37,041
you're trying to when you're trying to

501
01:25:37,041 --> 01:25:37,958
create art, you're trying to create something that's pleasing to you.

502
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:42,458
And the less complications it has more

503
01:25:42,458 --> 01:25:44,750
than I can really identify with specific

504
01:25:44,750 --> 01:25:47,500
features. So I love black and white on,

505
01:25:47,500 --> 01:25:49,500
you know, many levels, there are certain

506
01:25:49,500 --> 01:25:51,583
images that Yeah, I just can't bring

507
01:25:51,583 --> 01:25:53,958
myself to turn into black and white. But

508
01:25:53,958 --> 01:25:55,916
from an art from an art point of view,

509
01:25:55,916 --> 01:25:57,416
and I'm trying to create, you know,

510
01:25:57,625 --> 01:25:59,833
investment grade art pieces, I think

511
01:25:59,833 --> 01:26:01,875
black and white lends itself perfectly to

512
01:26:01,875 --> 01:26:03,875
that agreed. Yeah, agreed. Absolutely.

513
01:26:04,500 --> 01:26:05,750
Can I ask you a question? You know, you

514
01:26:05,750 --> 01:26:06,958
mentioned, you know, this is a typical, you know, a

515
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:11,500
1970s type of type of photo and grew up

516
01:26:11,500 --> 01:26:13,500
in the 70s and just rub it in, Andrew.

517
01:26:13,875 --> 01:26:15,625
No, I think this is great. This is

518
01:26:15,625 --> 01:26:17,375
because no, because I think there's a lot

519
01:26:17,375 --> 01:26:19,500
of times where, you know, like even in

520
01:26:19,500 --> 01:26:22,750
science, we forget, you know, we forget

521
01:26:22,750 --> 01:26:25,583
the the methods that were used in the

522
01:26:25,583 --> 01:26:27,083
past and some of the studies that were

523
01:26:27,083 --> 01:26:28,875
used in the past to kind of how it brings

524
01:26:28,875 --> 01:26:30,833
into the future and how it influences how

525
01:26:30,833 --> 01:26:32,541
we do science now, and just how we do

526
01:26:32,541 --> 01:26:35,458
photography now. There's been a lot of

527
01:26:35,458 --> 01:26:35,958
change in photography since the early 90s.

528
01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:38,916
And photography since the 1970s. We're in

529
01:26:38,916 --> 01:26:42,000
a digital age right now. Have you did you

530
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:43,625
make that transition? Or are you in a

531
01:26:43,625 --> 01:26:45,125
transition where you're still using film?

532
01:26:45,125 --> 01:26:47,666
Do you still use digital? When you made

533
01:26:47,666 --> 01:26:49,166
that transition, you know, you have to

534
01:26:49,166 --> 01:26:50,541
learn on your feet, like, can you just

535
01:26:50,541 --> 01:26:52,166
talk about that transition, how it's

536
01:26:52,166 --> 01:26:55,416
affected your photography in that sense?

537
01:26:55,916 --> 01:26:58,666
So when I first started shooting, which

538
01:26:58,666 --> 01:27:00,750
was in the seriously, which was in the

539
01:27:00,750 --> 01:27:02,333
90s, we're obviously

540
01:27:02,333 --> 01:27:04,958
shooting on film and slide. Yeah.

541
01:27:05,083 --> 01:27:07,541
And it was a case of if you went on an

542
01:27:07,541 --> 01:27:09,041
expedition and you're shooting

543
01:27:09,041 --> 01:27:12,708
underwater, you would have, you know, 36

544
01:27:12,708 --> 01:27:16,041
images that you could take. And that was

545
01:27:16,041 --> 01:27:18,666
it. So if you're underwater, and you

546
01:27:18,666 --> 01:27:20,208
thought something good was coming, you

547
01:27:20,208 --> 01:27:22,625
kind of had a barge of time. And the

548
01:27:22,625 --> 01:27:24,458
other big thing was that you could make

549
01:27:24,458 --> 01:27:26,541
the same mistake over and over again, you

550
01:27:26,541 --> 01:27:27,708
can never look at the back of your

551
01:27:27,708 --> 01:27:31,000
camera's reference. So, you know, I did

552
01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:33,666
trips where I went away, and then I'll

553
01:27:33,666 --> 01:27:34,666
get back to South Africa.

554
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:37,166
And I would take my film in those days to

555
01:27:37,166 --> 01:27:39,000
the lab and they develop it and it was,

556
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:41,291
oh, my gosh, you know, I did the same

557
01:27:41,291 --> 01:27:43,916
thing over and over and over again. And I

558
01:27:43,916 --> 01:27:45,916
kind of messed up and I wouldn't say an

559
01:27:45,916 --> 01:27:49,083
entire trip. But yeah, so that was, you

560
01:27:49,083 --> 01:27:51,416
know, learning process. But I think it

561
01:27:51,416 --> 01:27:53,083
was a good one because it kind of forced

562
01:27:53,083 --> 01:27:55,333
you to learn a little bit more

563
01:27:55,333 --> 01:27:58,916
technically. I'll never forget when I

564
01:27:58,916 --> 01:28:00,916
took, you know, I suppose, which became

565
01:28:00,916 --> 01:28:02,666
the photo I was best known for, which was

566
01:28:02,666 --> 01:28:04,291
a great white jumping out

567
01:28:04,291 --> 01:28:04,958
of the water with its mouth.

568
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:08,291
Why it opened. I remember seeing that

569
01:28:08,291 --> 01:28:10,541
split second very clearly when I when I

570
01:28:10,541 --> 01:28:13,166
took the shot, but I had no idea whether

571
01:28:13,166 --> 01:28:15,916
I nailed it. And I knew at that time that

572
01:28:15,916 --> 01:28:18,833
if I got that shot, it was probably going

573
01:28:18,833 --> 01:28:20,125
to be the most spectacular shock

574
01:28:20,125 --> 01:28:21,500
photograph, certainly that I'd

575
01:28:21,500 --> 01:28:22,958
ever taken and maybe anywhere.

576
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:27,250
And I took it to a lab in Cape Town and

577
01:28:27,250 --> 01:28:29,166
they could only develop it by the

578
01:28:29,166 --> 01:28:30,333
following Monday. And I remember

579
01:28:30,333 --> 01:28:33,291
nervously that whole weekend wondering if

580
01:28:33,291 --> 01:28:35,666
I'd actually a captured the moment and be

581
01:28:35,666 --> 01:28:37,583
it was sharp. And I walked into that lab

582
01:28:37,583 --> 01:28:38,666
in Cape Town on a Monday.

583
01:28:39,750 --> 01:28:41,291
And everyone was clapping and I thought,

584
01:28:41,291 --> 01:28:43,125
wow, fantastic. You know, this is

585
01:28:43,125 --> 01:28:45,083
incredible. And I went in those days used

586
01:28:45,083 --> 01:28:47,458
to have a loop like a magnifying glass

587
01:28:47,458 --> 01:28:48,750
and used to put it. I know what you're

588
01:28:48,750 --> 01:28:49,958
talking about. Yeah, you were.

589
01:28:50,000 --> 01:28:54,000
And used to used to look through this

590
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:56,416
loop on your slides. And I looked at the

591
01:28:56,416 --> 01:28:58,083
first frame in the sequence, which was

592
01:28:58,083 --> 01:29:00,166
truly incredible, but it was completely

593
01:29:00,166 --> 01:29:02,291
soft. And I thought, my God, you've

594
01:29:02,291 --> 01:29:05,083
watched a moment you'll never have again

595
01:29:05,083 --> 01:29:07,500
in your life. And then the second image

596
01:29:07,500 --> 01:29:09,625
was sharp. And that was kind of the

597
01:29:09,625 --> 01:29:11,500
defining image for me that really, you

598
01:29:11,500 --> 01:29:13,375
know, was very fortunate to help my

599
01:29:13,375 --> 01:29:15,916
career. But that was the process you went

600
01:29:15,916 --> 01:29:17,958
through. And then with digital, suddenly,

601
01:29:18,250 --> 01:29:19,625
you could be underwater.

602
01:29:19,625 --> 01:29:19,958
And you could see that.

603
01:29:20,000 --> 01:29:22,458
And correcting your mistakes right there.

604
01:29:22,458 --> 01:29:24,541
And that was a mind blowing transition.

605
01:29:24,750 --> 01:29:27,583
And one, I didn't want to accept because

606
01:29:27,583 --> 01:29:30,500
I love shooting with film and I love my

607
01:29:30,500 --> 01:29:33,708
my Canon EOS 1V that did 10 frames a

608
01:29:33,708 --> 01:29:35,166
second. And there was this magnificent

609
01:29:35,166 --> 01:29:38,125
machine gun feeling when you shot a

610
01:29:38,125 --> 01:29:39,750
breaching shock, you left that you'd

611
01:29:39,750 --> 01:29:41,250
actually hold the trigger down a little

612
01:29:41,250 --> 01:29:42,333
bit longer just to hear that.

613
01:29:44,000 --> 01:29:45,916
But then, yeah, I mean, digital

614
01:29:45,916 --> 01:29:49,625
revolution. And today we have mirrorless

615
01:29:49,625 --> 01:29:51,333
cameras, which I love even more because

616
01:29:51,333 --> 01:29:53,125
they allow me to be even more creative in

617
01:29:53,125 --> 01:29:55,416
my composition. And yeah, I mean,

618
01:29:55,416 --> 01:29:57,041
technology of cameras is

619
01:29:57,041 --> 01:29:58,375
really advanced greatly.

620
01:30:00,166 --> 01:30:03,791
Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. But

621
01:30:03,791 --> 01:30:05,708
so Chris, even though you're doing this,

622
01:30:05,708 --> 01:30:07,583
all this is a main just really good.

623
01:30:07,583 --> 01:30:08,833
We'll have to have you come on some time.

624
01:30:08,833 --> 01:30:10,333
We'll spend some more time on this stuff.

625
01:30:10,333 --> 01:30:11,916
But we want to talk to you today about

626
01:30:11,916 --> 01:30:13,291
you're still stirring up trouble on this

627
01:30:13,291 --> 01:30:16,375
white shark orca issue, which has been in

628
01:30:16,375 --> 01:30:20,083
the news again lately. And kind of what

629
01:30:20,083 --> 01:30:24,541
have you have you data, son, the trouble

630
01:30:24,541 --> 01:30:24,833
you're getting

631
01:30:24,833 --> 01:30:25,958
yourself and everyone into.

632
01:30:26,000 --> 01:30:29,000
I'm always in trouble one way or another.

633
01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:30,666
If it's not with the sharks or scientists

634
01:30:30,666 --> 01:30:33,625
with my wife, so who knows? But the

635
01:30:33,625 --> 01:30:40,125
reality is, yeah, the reality is, I still

636
01:30:40,125 --> 01:30:42,250
want to save those few that are left. And

637
01:30:42,250 --> 01:30:45,041
I still very strongly believe that, you

638
01:30:45,041 --> 01:30:46,750
know, we're not we're not tackling the

639
01:30:46,750 --> 01:30:48,875
real issues that have pertained to the

640
01:30:48,875 --> 01:30:50,416
real reasons why we've lost the great

641
01:30:50,416 --> 01:30:53,500
whites in South Africa. So those animals

642
01:30:53,500 --> 01:30:54,958
gave me everything in my life.

643
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:58,583
And I will keep fighting for them. I

644
01:30:58,583 --> 01:31:00,500
don't have any vested interest anymore.

645
01:31:00,500 --> 01:31:02,666
We've sold our shop business. I don't

646
01:31:02,666 --> 01:31:04,541
derive any income from working with those

647
01:31:04,541 --> 01:31:07,416
animals. But what I do have is, you know,

648
01:31:08,291 --> 01:31:10,208
over three decades of incredible

649
01:31:10,208 --> 01:31:12,458
experiences, many of the best ones of my

650
01:31:12,458 --> 01:31:14,625
life that were given to me by them. So

651
01:31:14,625 --> 01:31:18,125
yes, I do believe that the truth, what I

652
01:31:18,125 --> 01:31:20,583
believe the truth is needs to come out.

653
01:31:21,250 --> 01:31:22,833
Because if we don't address those

654
01:31:22,833 --> 01:31:24,833
factors, there is no chance we

655
01:31:24,833 --> 01:31:24,958
will ever be able to do that.

656
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:25,416
And I don't think that we will ever have

657
01:31:25,416 --> 01:31:27,458
white sharks again in South Africa. So

658
01:31:27,458 --> 01:31:30,416
yeah, I don't purposefully go out there

659
01:31:30,416 --> 01:31:34,000
and still hornets nest. I know intent of

660
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:36,416
doing that. But I do want to trigger

661
01:31:36,416 --> 01:31:40,666
whatever I can to start really looking

662
01:31:40,666 --> 01:31:43,583
into those causes and rooting them out

663
01:31:43,583 --> 01:31:46,000
because I believe without getting rid of

664
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:47,166
those primary causes,

665
01:31:47,166 --> 01:31:48,375
which I'm sure we'll discuss.

666
01:31:50,000 --> 01:31:50,875
But I think we have no chance in South

667
01:31:50,875 --> 01:31:53,708
Africa, we need to control those elements

668
01:31:53,708 --> 01:31:56,083
that are within our control instead of

669
01:31:56,083 --> 01:31:57,541
focusing on those which we

670
01:31:57,541 --> 01:32:00,833
have no control over. Yeah.

671
01:32:02,208 --> 01:32:05,208
Sorry, sorry, David, can you just just

672
01:32:05,208 --> 01:32:08,208
lay out what the sort of the I guess that

673
01:32:08,208 --> 01:32:09,625
the quote unquote two sides of the

674
01:32:09,625 --> 01:32:12,291
argument are in terms of what's

675
01:32:12,291 --> 01:32:14,416
happening, what's happening in this in

676
01:32:14,416 --> 01:32:18,000
this disappearance or movement of great

677
01:32:18,000 --> 01:32:20,375
white sharks within within the areas that

678
01:32:20,375 --> 01:32:20,958
they're normally found in South Africa.

679
01:32:21,000 --> 01:32:24,875
Yeah, so so they they're too strong,

680
01:32:24,875 --> 01:32:27,958
strongly opposed schools of thought. The

681
01:32:27,958 --> 01:32:30,666
first is that two orcas by the name of

682
01:32:30,666 --> 01:32:33,000
Porton starboard have come to the

683
01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:35,000
southern coastline about a decade ago,

684
01:32:35,750 --> 01:32:37,666
and have caused the complete

685
01:32:37,666 --> 01:32:40,458
disappearance of white sharks from the

686
01:32:40,458 --> 01:32:42,333
three former hotspots in South Africa

687
01:32:42,333 --> 01:32:44,750
that I think it was globally acknowledged

688
01:32:44,750 --> 01:32:46,291
had the highest population of white

689
01:32:46,291 --> 01:32:48,083
sharks anywhere in the world. So that was

690
01:32:48,083 --> 01:32:48,958
false bay, Hans by and muscle bad.

691
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:53,416
And they've been those two, those two

692
01:32:53,416 --> 01:32:55,041
workers have been the reason why South

693
01:32:55,041 --> 01:32:57,500
Africa's white shark population is either

694
01:32:57,500 --> 01:33:00,750
collapsed or been killed or has moved to

695
01:33:00,750 --> 01:33:03,166
the east as some would suggest. Then

696
01:33:03,166 --> 01:33:04,583
there's another school of thought of

697
01:33:04,583 --> 01:33:07,166
which I'm a strong proponent that

698
01:33:07,166 --> 01:33:09,875
anthropogenic so human causes in the form

699
01:33:09,875 --> 01:33:12,000
of the Nutella sharks board, the KwaZulu

700
01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:14,958
Nutella sharks board that have got a set

701
01:33:14,958 --> 01:33:16,750
of bay, the protection nets on our east

702
01:33:16,750 --> 01:33:16,958
coast, as well as a fishery of the

703
01:33:17,000 --> 01:33:21,500
the commercial shark long line fisheries.

704
01:33:21,500 --> 01:33:23,291
So commercial means bottom and then it's

705
01:33:23,291 --> 01:33:25,625
a long line that is put out to catch

706
01:33:25,625 --> 01:33:28,291
small species of sharks, that those two

707
01:33:28,291 --> 01:33:31,625
have been the primary causes of why why

708
01:33:31,625 --> 01:33:33,125
sharks have disappeared from our

709
01:33:33,125 --> 01:33:35,958
coastline. And you know, we did a huge

710
01:33:35,958 --> 01:33:38,833
amount of work investigating the long

711
01:33:38,833 --> 01:33:40,625
line fishery. A lot is already known

712
01:33:40,625 --> 01:33:42,333
about the devastating effect that the

713
01:33:42,333 --> 01:33:43,916
sharks board has on sharks in South

714
01:33:43,916 --> 01:33:46,958
Africa. But really looking into the

715
01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:49,500
fishery that has long been suggested

716
01:33:49,500 --> 01:33:52,125
wasn't really having an impact on the

717
01:33:52,125 --> 01:33:54,375
white sharks and really you know in

718
01:33:54,375 --> 01:33:57,458
recent times we found out that yes sadly

719
01:33:57,458 --> 01:34:00,333
what we speculated all along was not only

720
01:34:00,333 --> 01:34:02,375
true it was probably an

721
01:34:02,375 --> 01:34:04,500
underestimation of the impact that was

722
01:34:04,500 --> 01:34:11,291
taking place. Yeah go ahead.

723
01:34:11,541 --> 01:34:14,708
Okay yes I mean I the other thing I just

724
01:34:14,708 --> 01:34:16,625
kind of struck me when I was kind of like

725
01:34:16,625 --> 01:34:18,708
as I was kind of following a little bit

726
01:34:18,708 --> 01:34:20,791
but after talking to you a couple years

727
01:34:20,833 --> 01:34:22,416
ago and of course you have talked with

728
01:34:22,416 --> 01:34:24,625
Allison Towner, Allison Koch and a lot of

729
01:34:24,625 --> 01:34:27,250
the other people Paul Cowley and others

730
01:34:27,250 --> 01:34:27,625
that have been

731
01:34:27,625 --> 01:34:29,708
involved. One of the things

732
01:34:29,708 --> 01:34:31,458
that I also kind of came across was there

733
01:34:31,458 --> 01:34:32,583
seems to be more of a there's

734
01:34:32,583 --> 01:34:34,125
been more of a cold water intrusion in

735
01:34:34,125 --> 01:34:36,416
the western Cape and you've seen like

736
01:34:36,458 --> 01:34:38,708
species a common one you know you'll know

737
01:34:38,708 --> 01:34:41,000
well as the the shy sharks like you

738
01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:43,583
have the the haplobufers had words the

739
01:34:43,583 --> 01:34:45,125
eye which used to be common in false

740
01:34:45,125 --> 01:34:46,750
Bay they've tended to move further to the

741
01:34:46,750 --> 01:34:49,625
east and the and the haplobufers

742
01:34:49,625 --> 01:34:51,625
picked us which used to just be my

743
01:34:51,625 --> 01:34:52,916
experience was just in the west coast

744
01:34:52,916 --> 01:34:54,875
they have moved further to the east now

745
01:34:54,875 --> 01:34:57,708
as well and I'm wondering I don't and I

746
01:34:57,708 --> 01:35:00,291
don't really know if anybody's looking at

747
01:35:00,291 --> 01:35:01,583
some of these other just a natural

748
01:35:01,583 --> 01:35:04,500
environmental causes they're just cooling

749
01:35:04,500 --> 01:35:05,458
to the oceans or something that

750
01:35:05,541 --> 01:35:06,916
pushed the what that have pushed the

751
01:35:06,916 --> 01:35:08,875
white sharks in addition to some of the

752
01:35:08,875 --> 01:35:10,875
stuff you're talking about have put help

753
01:35:10,875 --> 01:35:12,458
push the white shark population

754
01:35:12,541 --> 01:35:16,000
further towards a eastern Cape KZN in

755
01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:19,583
that area yeah yeah for sure you know

756
01:35:19,625 --> 01:35:21,333
definitely invited their own

757
01:35:21,333 --> 01:35:23,541
environmental factors at play but what I

758
01:35:23,541 --> 01:35:25,916
can say you know unequivocally from my

759
01:35:25,916 --> 01:35:28,625
experience working in false bay is that

760
01:35:28,625 --> 01:35:30,750
human impacts have had a devastating

761
01:35:30,750 --> 01:35:33,208
effect yeah I started on my career

762
01:35:33,291 --> 01:35:35,625
working with the local beach seine net

763
01:35:35,625 --> 01:35:38,416
fishermen called trek netters and as a

764
01:35:38,416 --> 01:35:40,541
young guy and he's in his teenage years

765
01:35:40,541 --> 01:35:42,083
when I should have been more diligent

766
01:35:42,666 --> 01:35:45,333
of my studies at school I used to be down

767
01:35:45,333 --> 01:35:47,291
at the trek nets taking the sharks

768
01:35:47,291 --> 01:35:49,666
out the nets and and releasing them in

769
01:35:49,666 --> 01:35:51,208
the early days that the trek net

770
01:35:51,208 --> 01:35:53,458
fishermen used to kill the sharks and

771
01:35:53,458 --> 01:35:54,958
very kindly through a little bit of

772
01:35:54,958 --> 01:35:56,416
persuasion they allowed me to start

773
01:35:56,416 --> 01:35:59,041
tagging them and in those early years it

774
01:35:59,083 --> 01:36:00,875
wasn't uncommon for us to get you know

775
01:36:00,875 --> 01:36:02,875
upwards of a hundred smoothhound sharks

776
01:36:02,875 --> 01:36:05,166
in the trek net maybe with 10 or 15

777
01:36:05,166 --> 01:36:07,458
bronze whalers and then a couple of other

778
01:36:07,458 --> 01:36:09,416
amazing sharks like the odd threshold

779
01:36:09,416 --> 01:36:12,291
ragged tooth thrown in in between and

780
01:36:12,291 --> 01:36:14,500
what we started noticing over the years

781
01:36:14,500 --> 01:36:17,208
particularly when the shop shark fishing

782
01:36:17,208 --> 01:36:19,125
for smaller species of sharks that were

783
01:36:19,125 --> 01:36:20,875
exporting to Australia started kicking

784
01:36:20,875 --> 01:36:22,916
in is particularly in the case of the

785
01:36:22,916 --> 01:36:24,625
smoothhound shark those populations

786
01:36:24,833 --> 01:36:28,000
really started crashing almost perfectly

787
01:36:28,000 --> 01:36:29,833
in line with as you would

788
01:36:29,833 --> 01:36:32,291
logically assume the increase in the

789
01:36:32,291 --> 01:36:35,125
fishing started to take place so we

790
01:36:35,125 --> 01:36:36,958
noticed that we are seeing a huge

791
01:36:36,958 --> 01:36:38,750
decrease in numbers of those smaller

792
01:36:38,750 --> 01:36:41,250
sharks what I didn't understand at the

793
01:36:41,250 --> 01:36:43,166
time and please remember we're talking

794
01:36:43,250 --> 01:36:45,833
about the the mid and mid 90s here and

795
01:36:45,833 --> 01:36:48,166
even earlier is the relevance of those

796
01:36:48,166 --> 01:36:50,166
small sharks to great white sharks you

797
01:36:50,166 --> 01:36:52,250
know in the early days we used to just

798
01:36:52,333 --> 01:36:54,666
think that great white sharks fed on

799
01:36:54,666 --> 01:36:56,583
seals and when they got bigger they might

800
01:36:56,583 --> 01:36:59,750
scavenge whale carcasses etc but what a

801
01:36:59,750 --> 01:37:02,083
lot of science has told us you know

802
01:37:02,083 --> 01:37:04,750
since then is that those small sharks and

803
01:37:04,750 --> 01:37:07,333
various fish species form a very

804
01:37:07,333 --> 01:37:09,125
very significant portion of the great

805
01:37:09,125 --> 01:37:11,500
whites diet and if you look at the

806
01:37:11,500 --> 01:37:14,291
Natal sharks board that you know has a

807
01:37:14,291 --> 01:37:15,833
long history of obviously killing great

808
01:37:15,833 --> 01:37:17,583
white sharks what they also did is they

809
01:37:17,583 --> 01:37:19,583
looked at the stomach contents of great

810
01:37:19,625 --> 01:37:22,000
whites and in a paper done by Jeremy

811
01:37:22,000 --> 01:37:25,916
Cliff it was showing that far of the 592

812
01:37:25,916 --> 01:37:28,208
great white sharks that they sampled over

813
01:37:28,208 --> 01:37:30,666
a must be in about a 15-year period

814
01:37:30,666 --> 01:37:33,083
forgive me if I'm slightly out on that

815
01:37:33,083 --> 01:37:36,416
yeah but that smaller sharks and fish

816
01:37:36,416 --> 01:37:39,375
made up over 60% of the great whites diet

817
01:37:39,375 --> 01:37:41,708
and what we started seeing around

818
01:37:41,708 --> 01:37:44,625
the world is you know that sort of figure

819
01:37:44,625 --> 01:37:46,625
started mirroring itself in other

820
01:37:46,625 --> 01:37:49,791
areas and when I started working all

821
01:37:49,791 --> 01:37:51,625
around the world I often would see you

822
01:37:51,625 --> 01:37:53,250
know white sharks in environments where

823
01:37:53,250 --> 01:37:55,500
these small sharks were so it didn't take

824
01:37:55,500 --> 01:37:57,541
a rocket scientist to start figuring out

825
01:37:57,541 --> 01:37:59,333
that if you started messing with what

826
01:37:59,333 --> 01:38:01,041
is the primary prey source you're going

827
01:38:01,041 --> 01:38:02,791
to probably start seeing ecological

828
01:38:03,041 --> 01:38:04,958
shifts in the distribution of the white

829
01:38:04,958 --> 01:38:07,333
sharks as well and what we noticed in

830
01:38:07,333 --> 01:38:10,166
false Bay's and bear in mind by the mid

831
01:38:10,166 --> 01:38:12,791
90s I was starting to run my own shark

832
01:38:12,833 --> 01:38:17,125
business mid late 90s and by virtue of

833
01:38:17,125 --> 01:38:18,583
the fact that I was making money out of

834
01:38:18,583 --> 01:38:19,750
working with great whites I needed to

835
01:38:19,750 --> 01:38:22,166
know where they were to satisfy my my

836
01:38:22,166 --> 01:38:24,875
clients needs to see these animals and we

837
01:38:24,875 --> 01:38:26,541
realized that the great whites were

838
01:38:26,541 --> 01:38:28,625
around the seal colonies for roughly

839
01:38:28,625 --> 01:38:30,625
around five months of the year so

840
01:38:30,625 --> 01:38:32,750
traditionally in the late southern

841
01:38:32,750 --> 01:38:35,125
hemisphere autumn months so you look

842
01:38:35,125 --> 01:38:37,666
talking about April May and then into the

843
01:38:37,666 --> 01:38:39,375
very early spring months so

844
01:38:39,416 --> 01:38:41,666
beginning of September so essentially a

845
01:38:41,666 --> 01:38:43,916
five-month window and when the white

846
01:38:43,916 --> 01:38:46,875
sharks suddenly left seal island at the

847
01:38:46,875 --> 01:38:48,791
beginning middle of September every year

848
01:38:48,791 --> 01:38:51,958
we quickly found out that where we found

849
01:38:51,958 --> 01:38:54,375
them correlated exactly with where

850
01:38:54,375 --> 01:38:56,583
the smooth hound and other small species

851
01:38:56,583 --> 01:38:58,500
of sharks were and then over

852
01:38:58,583 --> 01:39:01,041
time particularly in the early 2000s when

853
01:39:01,041 --> 01:39:03,208
the shark fishing the hand line

854
01:39:03,208 --> 01:39:04,916
fishing and then the long line fishing

855
01:39:04,916 --> 01:39:06,666
really started kicking in and those

856
01:39:06,666 --> 01:39:08,708
small sharks are disappearing from false

857
01:39:08,708 --> 01:39:10,000
bay we started

858
01:39:10,000 --> 01:39:11,791
suddenly encountering white

859
01:39:11,791 --> 01:39:14,041
sharks in all sorts of areas in false bay

860
01:39:14,041 --> 01:39:16,000
where they may have been seen

861
01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:18,125
occasionally before but now suddenly

862
01:39:18,125 --> 01:39:20,750
we're becoming very prevalent and we

863
01:39:20,750 --> 01:39:22,333
started seeing the great whites coming

864
01:39:22,333 --> 01:39:25,291
back to seal island earlier and earlier

865
01:39:25,291 --> 01:39:28,458
every year and it wasn't a huge step in

866
01:39:28,458 --> 01:39:30,250
logic to think well these animals are

867
01:39:30,250 --> 01:39:32,166
having to cover more ground to find what

868
01:39:32,166 --> 01:39:34,458
was previously easy food to find and

869
01:39:34,916 --> 01:39:36,750
in all likelihood they were coming back

870
01:39:36,750 --> 01:39:38,958
to seal island to scavenge because

871
01:39:38,958 --> 01:39:40,666
that's what we were seeing whereas before

872
01:39:40,666 --> 01:39:42,166
it was primarily hunting healthy

873
01:39:42,166 --> 01:39:44,583
seals they were coming back to scavenge

874
01:39:44,583 --> 01:39:46,750
to offset the deficit of them not being

875
01:39:46,750 --> 01:39:49,958
able to find these other prey sources and

876
01:39:49,958 --> 01:39:51,250
we started seeing this further up

877
01:39:51,250 --> 01:39:53,833
the coast as well we also started paying

878
01:39:53,833 --> 01:39:55,291
more attention to the fact that

879
01:39:55,291 --> 01:39:57,375
the white sharks you know were feeding on

880
01:39:57,375 --> 01:39:59,375
these small animals and in places

881
01:39:59,375 --> 01:40:01,500
like DeHerpe there are no seals but you

882
01:40:01,500 --> 01:40:03,458
had high numbers of great white sharks

883
01:40:03,500 --> 01:40:05,625
in short environments that were very rich

884
01:40:05,625 --> 01:40:08,708
in these sharks so it didn't take

885
01:40:08,708 --> 01:40:11,250
you know too much to put together that

886
01:40:11,250 --> 01:40:13,833
you lose these small animals you lose

887
01:40:13,833 --> 01:40:15,583
the prey you lose the predator if you put

888
01:40:15,583 --> 01:40:18,000
it in a terrestrial equivalent if you

889
01:40:18,000 --> 01:40:19,750
wipe out all the impala out of the Kriga

890
01:40:19,750 --> 01:40:21,791
National Park you're going to lose

891
01:40:21,791 --> 01:40:23,833
things like cheetahs and hyenas and wild

892
01:40:23,833 --> 01:40:25,500
dogs and all the predators that

893
01:40:25,500 --> 01:40:28,125
prey on those and we're going to move

894
01:40:28,125 --> 01:40:30,000
forward quite a bit here but what we

895
01:40:30,000 --> 01:40:32,041
didn't realize at the time and I was

896
01:40:32,041 --> 01:40:33,916
starting to talk to the shark longliners

897
01:40:33,958 --> 01:40:35,708
and you know I knew one or two of the

898
01:40:35,708 --> 01:40:38,041
captains of these boats and I started

899
01:40:38,041 --> 01:40:41,250
saying to them you know how many how many

900
01:40:41,250 --> 01:40:42,416
of these small sharks are you

901
01:40:42,416 --> 01:40:43,791
catching and I'd say well you know an

902
01:40:43,791 --> 01:40:45,666
average trip they would catch 10,000 of

903
01:40:45,666 --> 01:40:49,125
them and that to me was a truly ginormous

904
01:40:49,125 --> 01:40:52,750
number and I said you know

905
01:40:52,750 --> 01:40:55,666
my theory is that you by removing the

906
01:40:55,666 --> 01:40:58,041
white sharks prey you are going to be

907
01:40:58,083 --> 01:40:59,791
causing big problems for the white sharks

908
01:40:59,791 --> 01:41:00,916
and I'll never forget the one

909
01:41:00,916 --> 01:41:03,041
captain of the boat he was actually an

910
01:41:03,041 --> 01:41:05,458
incredibly knowledgeable person on all

911
01:41:05,458 --> 01:41:07,875
forms of fishing and marine life and he

912
01:41:07,875 --> 01:41:09,750
said to me I don't know so much about

913
01:41:09,750 --> 01:41:11,291
what you're talking about in terms of the

914
01:41:11,291 --> 01:41:13,375
white sharks prey being these small

915
01:41:13,375 --> 01:41:15,291
sharks and what impact we having but yes

916
01:41:15,291 --> 01:41:17,833
it's logical but what you should be far

917
01:41:17,833 --> 01:41:20,791
more worried about is the fact that the

918
01:41:20,791 --> 01:41:23,125
longliners of which he had been one are

919
01:41:23,250 --> 01:41:25,375
entangling a lot of white sharks and the

920
01:41:25,375 --> 01:41:27,208
white sharks are dying on their lines so

921
01:41:28,041 --> 01:41:33,041
that suddenly triggered for me at least

922
01:41:33,041 --> 01:41:36,166
as bigger problem but it became almost

923
01:41:36,166 --> 01:41:39,875
impossible to prove you know because a he

924
01:41:39,875 --> 01:41:42,041
was now retired but other the active

925
01:41:42,125 --> 01:41:44,375
captains would never say hey yes we

926
01:41:44,375 --> 01:41:46,166
catching lots of protected great white

927
01:41:46,166 --> 01:41:48,000
sharks and we're killing them you know no

928
01:41:48,000 --> 01:41:49,625
and it's not easy to get on these

929
01:41:49,666 --> 01:41:52,500
close so for a long time we were waving

930
01:41:52,500 --> 01:41:55,125
the red flag saying you can't wipe out

931
01:41:55,125 --> 01:41:57,208
the white sharks prey and expect there

932
01:41:57,208 --> 01:41:59,708
won't be consequences but a couple of

933
01:41:59,708 --> 01:42:02,375
years ago after much digging and really

934
01:42:02,375 --> 01:42:03,833
trying to get to the bottom of it so much

935
01:42:03,833 --> 01:42:05,666
so that we actually even bought a boat to

936
01:42:05,666 --> 01:42:08,000
follow the longliners and caught them

937
01:42:08,000 --> 01:42:09,958
fishing and marine protected areas and

938
01:42:09,958 --> 01:42:11,791
caught them breaking pretty much every

939
01:42:11,791 --> 01:42:15,208
law you could we eventually got a whistle

940
01:42:15,208 --> 01:42:18,208
blow on the inside that we tracked down

941
01:42:18,208 --> 01:42:19,375
through a hell of a

942
01:42:19,375 --> 01:42:19,625
protractor and we were

943
01:42:20,125 --> 01:42:23,833
and he told us exactly what was happening

944
01:42:23,833 --> 01:42:26,041
on those boats and yes they were catching

945
01:42:26,041 --> 01:42:28,125
and killing large numbers of great whites

946
01:42:28,125 --> 01:42:30,250
that they had a very well established

947
01:42:30,250 --> 01:42:32,458
procedure to get off the boats and out of

948
01:42:32,458 --> 01:42:35,458
sight out of mind and the penny really

949
01:42:35,458 --> 01:42:38,125
drop that these guys are not only killing

950
01:42:38,125 --> 01:42:39,666
the prey of the white sharks because of

951
01:42:39,666 --> 01:42:42,666
the huge spatial overlap of that fishery

952
01:42:42,666 --> 01:42:44,625
with where the great whites are so

953
01:42:44,625 --> 01:42:46,083
naturally were that essentially the

954
01:42:46,083 --> 01:42:47,458
fishery and the white sharks are

955
01:42:47,458 --> 01:42:49,583
targeting the same thing it was almost

956
01:42:49,625 --> 01:42:52,083
inevitable that they didn't have a

957
01:42:52,083 --> 01:42:55,541
significant clash by catch and ultimately

958
01:42:55,541 --> 01:42:57,041
the white sharks were never going to come

959
01:42:57,041 --> 01:42:58,916
out on the better end of that and what we

960
01:42:58,916 --> 01:43:01,958
worked out from what this guy worked on

961
01:43:01,958 --> 01:43:04,416
the boats had told us is that that

962
01:43:04,416 --> 01:43:06,958
fishery was killing somewhere between 45

963
01:43:06,958 --> 01:43:11,291
to 60 great whites a year so to put that

964
01:43:11,291 --> 01:43:16,833
into context in 1996 Jeremy Clift who is

965
01:43:16,833 --> 01:43:19,583
a very well known and respected sighted fish and he was a very well known and respected

966
01:43:19,625 --> 01:43:21,166
scientist working within the tail sharks

967
01:43:21,166 --> 01:43:23,541
board did a paper I think Dave you might

968
01:43:23,541 --> 01:43:25,041
note I think it was with Sheldon Dudley

969
01:43:25,041 --> 01:43:27,250
where they came up with a figure of 1276

970
01:43:27,250 --> 01:43:31,583
white sharks that was 1996 then Alison

971
01:43:31,583 --> 01:43:35,833
Tarno did a study in 2013 and she said

972
01:43:35,833 --> 01:43:38,041
there were roughly 908 white sharks left

973
01:43:38,041 --> 01:43:42,000
on our coastline by 2016 just three years

974
01:43:42,000 --> 01:43:45,000
later another scientist by the name of

975
01:43:45,000 --> 01:43:46,875
Dr. Sarah Andriotti came out of the paper

976
01:43:46,875 --> 01:43:47,958
and said hey that

977
01:43:47,958 --> 01:43:49,541
numbers now somewhere between

978
01:43:49,625 --> 01:43:53,166
330 and 550 white sharks so let's say 420

979
01:43:53,166 --> 01:43:56,833
white sharks so he went from 1276 in 1996

980
01:43:56,833 --> 01:44:02,666
to 440 in 2016 so you know that is a

981
01:44:02,666 --> 01:44:06,500
massive drop and if you look at when the

982
01:44:06,500 --> 01:44:08,458
demersal shark longline fishery really

983
01:44:08,458 --> 01:44:10,583
kicked in you can see that catastrophic

984
01:44:10,583 --> 01:44:13,458
fall off and one of the things we did

985
01:44:13,458 --> 01:44:15,625
working in false phase we kept data from

986
01:44:15,625 --> 01:44:17,833
I'm not a scientist I'm not a researcher

987
01:44:17,833 --> 01:44:19,541
but I'm a very passionate naturalist

988
01:44:20,041 --> 01:44:22,166
and we kept data from the very first day

989
01:44:22,166 --> 01:44:23,458
we started working with those white

990
01:44:23,458 --> 01:44:26,458
sharks in false base so I kept data on

991
01:44:26,458 --> 01:44:28,416
all sightings every single animal I try

992
01:44:28,416 --> 01:44:30,666
to get the sex on every animal I kept

993
01:44:30,666 --> 01:44:33,041
data on every predation event we ever saw

994
01:44:33,041 --> 01:44:35,750
and the outcome and I kept kept data on

995
01:44:35,750 --> 01:44:37,000
anything else that was interesting

996
01:44:37,000 --> 01:44:39,083
pertaining to the white sharks as well as

997
01:44:39,083 --> 01:44:42,208
all environmental data so we had a very

998
01:44:42,208 --> 01:44:46,125
long and consistently kept data set from

999
01:44:46,125 --> 01:44:49,583
1996 till 2018 or even to

1000
01:44:49,625 --> 01:45:02,375
the early 2000s we used to average white

1001
01:45:02,375 --> 01:45:04,583
shark length of run about 3.8 meters

1002
01:45:04,583 --> 01:45:06,208
which is by far the biggest in South

1003
01:45:06,208 --> 01:45:07,916
Africa and false by we used to see very

1004
01:45:07,916 --> 01:45:10,458
large animals there many of which were

1005
01:45:10,458 --> 01:45:12,958
either approaching sexual maturity or

1006
01:45:12,958 --> 01:45:15,916
adults themselves suddenly from about the

1007
01:45:15,916 --> 01:45:18,041
mid 2000s a we started

1008
01:45:18,041 --> 01:45:19,583
seeing less big animals and

1009
01:45:19,625 --> 01:45:23,041
be we started seeing less animals or

1010
01:45:23,041 --> 01:45:26,083
together and see many of the sharks we

1011
01:45:26,083 --> 01:45:28,000
saw come back year after year we

1012
01:45:28,000 --> 01:45:30,208
recognize them individually as you know

1013
01:45:30,208 --> 01:45:32,916
specific animals a lot of our regular

1014
01:45:32,916 --> 01:45:34,791
students are coming back and I'd already

1015
01:45:34,791 --> 01:45:37,416
written all this in our data that I will

1016
01:45:37,416 --> 01:45:40,500
be publishing fairly soon in a book that

1017
01:45:40,500 --> 01:45:42,625
actually showed you know we were seeing

1018
01:45:42,625 --> 01:45:45,291
these declines as early as the mid late

1019
01:45:45,291 --> 01:45:48,250
2000s already but that decline really

1020
01:45:48,250 --> 01:45:49,583
became precipitous since the

1021
01:45:49,625 --> 01:45:52,166
early 2000s around about 2014 or so where

1022
01:45:52,166 --> 01:45:55,625
suddenly from you know being a relatively

1023
01:45:55,625 --> 01:45:57,750
slow decline it was literally off the

1024
01:45:57,750 --> 01:46:00,750
face of a cliff and we saw the very last

1025
01:46:00,750 --> 01:46:03,750
a white shark at Seal Island in false Bay

1026
01:46:03,750 --> 01:46:07,458
in 2018 so yeah from those incredible

1027
01:46:07,458 --> 01:46:09,083
years where we could have up to 23

1028
01:46:09,083 --> 01:46:11,083
different great white sharks in a single

1029
01:46:11,083 --> 01:46:14,041
morning by 2018 we lost the last one and

1030
01:46:14,041 --> 01:46:15,833
here's here's where I'm going to climb on

1031
01:46:15,833 --> 01:46:16,916
board with the orca theory.

1032
01:46:19,625 --> 01:46:36,125
And we were there every single workable

1033
01:46:36,125 --> 01:46:38,458
day that the weather would allow for

1034
01:46:38,458 --> 01:46:41,291
pretty much most of those years so it was

1035
01:46:41,291 --> 01:46:43,458
highly unlikely that if those orca's were

1036
01:46:43,458 --> 01:46:45,541
at Seal Island during daylight hours we

1037
01:46:45,541 --> 01:46:47,291
were going to see them but we never once

1038
01:46:47,291 --> 01:46:49,583
saw them port installed at Seal Island.

1039
01:46:49,625 --> 01:46:53,208
And preceding port installed but coming

1040
01:46:53,208 --> 01:46:55,458
to South Africa or becoming even

1041
01:46:55,458 --> 01:46:57,666
relatively frequently seen along our

1042
01:46:57,666 --> 01:47:00,416
coast we had already seen a decline in

1043
01:47:00,416 --> 01:47:03,833
early 2000s or mid 2000s and then by 2014

1044
01:47:03,833 --> 01:47:05,666
long before the words of port installed

1045
01:47:05,666 --> 01:47:09,250
or even on anybody's lips at precipitous

1046
01:47:09,250 --> 01:47:11,083
decline in false Bay to the point that

1047
01:47:11,083 --> 01:47:13,166
when port installed it arrived on the

1048
01:47:13,166 --> 01:47:15,458
scene by all intents and purposes the

1049
01:47:15,458 --> 01:47:18,291
white shark was already a word that was

1050
01:47:18,291 --> 01:47:18,583
used in historical terms.

1051
01:47:18,625 --> 01:47:23,083
And similarly at Dire Island if you go

1052
01:47:23,083 --> 01:47:25,250
back and seriously interrogate that data

1053
01:47:25,250 --> 01:47:29,500
their crash around Dire Island preempted

1054
01:47:29,500 --> 01:47:31,333
port installed but coming on the scene so

1055
01:47:31,333 --> 01:47:33,875
before you even start the whole orca

1056
01:47:33,875 --> 01:47:36,791
argument I say how can you blame an

1057
01:47:36,791 --> 01:47:38,208
animal that wasn't even on the crime

1058
01:47:38,208 --> 01:47:43,083
scene but then to to explain away how two

1059
01:47:43,083 --> 01:47:45,708
orca's could displace the world's biggest

1060
01:47:45,708 --> 01:47:47,583
white shark population over a stretch of coast and the other one.

1061
01:47:47,625 --> 01:47:49,708
There was stretch of coastline of well

1062
01:47:49,708 --> 01:47:51,541
over a thousand kilometers if you go from

1063
01:47:51,541 --> 01:47:53,708
Cape Town which is kind of the western

1064
01:47:53,708 --> 01:47:56,125
extreme of what we watch are historically

1065
01:47:56,125 --> 01:47:57,833
we're seeing although they actually used

1066
01:47:57,833 --> 01:48:00,166
to be seen up the west coast as well up

1067
01:48:00,166 --> 01:48:02,333
to the end of the kwazulu natal coast it

1068
01:48:02,333 --> 01:48:04,541
it doesn't make sense on any level and

1069
01:48:04,541 --> 01:48:07,083
certainly outdated doesn't show any

1070
01:48:07,083 --> 01:48:09,125
correlation between that you know if you

1071
01:48:09,125 --> 01:48:10,583
look at it in terrestrial environment

1072
01:48:10,583 --> 01:48:13,583
it's like saying well two lions suddenly

1073
01:48:13,583 --> 01:48:15,208
came into the Serengeti

1074
01:48:15,208 --> 01:48:15,583
and every single leopard just

1075
01:48:15,625 --> 01:48:20,666
left forever no these animals have got

1076
01:48:20,666 --> 01:48:22,625
preferred feeding environments that

1077
01:48:22,625 --> 01:48:25,083
they're not that many of and just because

1078
01:48:25,083 --> 01:48:27,083
it pre another predator infrequently

1079
01:48:27,083 --> 01:48:30,458
comes into that area you cannot simply

1080
01:48:30,458 --> 01:48:34,041
abandon those areas in perpetuity so my

1081
01:48:34,041 --> 01:48:36,000
very strong belief and it's shared by a

1082
01:48:36,000 --> 01:48:38,750
couple of non-government shark scientists

1083
01:48:38,750 --> 01:48:41,875
in South Africa is that the Natal sharks

1084
01:48:41,875 --> 01:48:44,958
bought coupled to the demersal shark long

1085
01:48:44,958 --> 01:48:45,583
line fishery and the Natal sharks are not that

1086
01:48:45,625 --> 01:48:48,958
very were just too much pressure on an

1087
01:48:48,958 --> 01:48:51,458
animal that was already you know there

1088
01:48:51,458 --> 01:48:53,541
were only let's call it a thousand out of

1089
01:48:53,541 --> 01:48:57,583
them left to have roughly 60 70 white

1090
01:48:57,583 --> 01:48:59,791
sharks being killed per annum every year

1091
01:48:59,791 --> 01:49:02,208
that population could never sustain it

1092
01:49:02,208 --> 01:49:05,041
and then when the walkers did come along

1093
01:49:05,041 --> 01:49:07,625
you know I think that that additional

1094
01:49:07,625 --> 01:49:10,708
pressure of roughly one per year because

1095
01:49:10,708 --> 01:49:15,583
from 2017 to 2025 there were roughly

1096
01:49:15,625 --> 01:49:18,125
10 deaths attributable to the walkers

1097
01:49:18,125 --> 01:49:21,083
that additional threat was just simply

1098
01:49:21,083 --> 01:49:24,208
too much and yes people are still seeing

1099
01:49:24,208 --> 01:49:25,833
the odd white shark in an area called

1100
01:49:25,833 --> 01:49:28,708
since up the East Coast but I think you

1101
01:49:28,708 --> 01:49:31,125
really are seeing you know in biological

1102
01:49:31,125 --> 01:49:33,375
terms correct me if I'm wrong Dave and

1103
01:49:33,375 --> 01:49:35,916
Andrew but one of the ways you look at a

1104
01:49:35,916 --> 01:49:38,125
population decline is what's called the

1105
01:49:38,125 --> 01:49:40,250
basin effect where populations contract

1106
01:49:40,250 --> 01:49:43,083
from the outside inwards and I strongly

1107
01:49:43,083 --> 01:49:44,291
believe those small white

1108
01:49:44,291 --> 01:49:45,583
sharks small and mean and

1109
01:49:45,625 --> 01:49:47,416
medium size white sharks that are left at

1110
01:49:47,416 --> 01:49:50,250
sensor are the very few remaining white

1111
01:49:50,250 --> 01:49:52,000
sharks we have in South Africa and

1112
01:49:52,000 --> 01:49:54,583
certainly to no extent explain away the

1113
01:49:54,583 --> 01:49:56,750
loss of a thousand white sharks and

1114
01:49:56,750 --> 01:49:58,541
certainly false based population where we

1115
01:49:58,541 --> 01:50:01,041
had very big white sharks so in a

1116
01:50:01,041 --> 01:50:03,958
nutshell I don't believe that if you

1117
01:50:03,958 --> 01:50:06,625
don't get rid of the the demersal shark

1118
01:50:06,625 --> 01:50:09,125
long line fishery that creates very few

1119
01:50:09,125 --> 01:50:11,833
jobs does nothing for food security in

1120
01:50:11,833 --> 01:50:13,500
South Africa and is having a

1121
01:50:13,500 --> 01:50:15,583
catastrophic effect now target

1122
01:50:15,625 --> 01:50:16,791
and they're creating two species that are

1123
01:50:16,791 --> 01:50:17,916
listed as critically endangered and

1124
01:50:17,916 --> 01:50:20,666
endangered with a super and smooth hound

1125
01:50:20,666 --> 01:50:21,791
sharks if you don't get rid of that

1126
01:50:21,791 --> 01:50:24,875
fishery and you don't start applying more

1127
01:50:24,875 --> 01:50:27,250
non lethal methods than the Natal sharks

1128
01:50:27,250 --> 01:50:29,000
board you will never see white sharks in

1129
01:50:29,000 --> 01:50:31,791
South Africa anywhere near what I

1130
01:50:31,791 --> 01:50:34,500
experienced and in all likelihood we

1131
01:50:34,500 --> 01:50:35,500
might lose him forever.

1132
01:50:36,625 --> 01:50:39,791
Yeah, Chris there's so much there I could

1133
01:50:39,791 --> 01:50:43,000
try to there's so much there you said I

1134
01:50:43,000 --> 01:50:44,541
could I could jump in and I'm going to

1135
01:50:44,541 --> 01:50:47,291
just try to summarize a lot of stuff some

1136
01:50:47,291 --> 01:50:47,916
of the some of the

1137
01:50:47,916 --> 01:50:48,666
points you mentioned there.

1138
01:50:49,125 --> 01:50:50,208
One of the things you mentioned is that

1139
01:50:50,208 --> 01:50:52,875
you think she said is like and this is

1140
01:50:52,875 --> 01:50:54,375
this is true people tend to think that

1141
01:50:54,375 --> 01:50:57,750
white sharks only eat seal sea lions, you

1142
01:50:57,750 --> 01:50:59,583
know the occasional dead whale.

1143
01:51:00,625 --> 01:51:02,541
And I can tell you there there is

1144
01:51:02,541 --> 01:51:04,958
actually and you'll know who this is but

1145
01:51:04,958 --> 01:51:06,541
if anyone out there listening whether

1146
01:51:06,541 --> 01:51:08,166
you're South African or not but if you go

1147
01:51:08,166 --> 01:51:10,083
back and look at some of the publication

1148
01:51:10,083 --> 01:51:12,583
series that John Bass Jeanette Dobri and

1149
01:51:12,583 --> 01:51:14,875
that kiss the Sami did was published in

1150
01:51:14,875 --> 01:51:17,958
the early to mid seventies classic stuff

1151
01:51:17,958 --> 01:51:20,625
for when I was I kind of predated you a

1152
01:51:20,625 --> 01:51:22,125
bit and look kind of really in the late

1153
01:51:22,125 --> 01:51:24,208
eighties and it's hard

1154
01:51:24,208 --> 01:51:25,583
to believe but we but.

1155
01:51:25,625 --> 01:51:30,666
At that time Leonard actually Leonard Kup

1156
01:51:30,666 --> 01:51:33,125
on is my advisor he was on to this whole

1157
01:51:33,125 --> 01:51:34,541
thing about these white sharks,

1158
01:51:34,541 --> 01:51:36,458
particularly if they're under about three

1159
01:51:36,458 --> 01:51:38,375
meters in length, they're feeding on

1160
01:51:38,375 --> 01:51:39,583
sharks large bony fishes.

1161
01:51:39,708 --> 01:51:42,416
They're not they're not they don't really

1162
01:51:42,416 --> 01:51:45,583
start to get into the mammals until till

1163
01:51:45,583 --> 01:51:47,125
their children over three three and a

1164
01:51:47,125 --> 01:51:50,333
half meters and I'm every week I go I'm

1165
01:51:50,333 --> 01:51:51,833
going to hold on dissertation this but

1166
01:51:51,833 --> 01:51:54,208
basically they they transitioned their

1167
01:51:54,208 --> 01:51:56,416
prey when they get larger but but the

1168
01:51:56,416 --> 01:51:59,125
soup and sharks these hound sharks are

1169
01:51:59,125 --> 01:52:00,125
their main prey item.

1170
01:52:01,083 --> 01:52:03,666
And I was there at a time where white

1171
01:52:03,666 --> 01:52:06,250
sharks are really common in the Western

1172
01:52:06,250 --> 01:52:08,666
Cape. I mean, they were real abundant but

1173
01:52:08,666 --> 01:52:10,625
also I used to go to all the rock and

1174
01:52:10,625 --> 01:52:13,541
surf and light tackle ski boat things

1175
01:52:13,541 --> 01:52:15,500
from everything from long a bond all the

1176
01:52:15,500 --> 01:52:18,875
way right on up to the Casey and coast

1177
01:52:18,875 --> 01:52:22,625
and you would see things like the lesser

1178
01:52:22,625 --> 01:52:26,708
sand sharks the guitar fish stingrays the

1179
01:52:26,708 --> 01:52:28,750
smooth hounds the must list the

1180
01:52:30,833 --> 01:52:32,791
super and sharks those things were like

1181
01:52:32,791 --> 01:52:36,333
really common to find in white shark even

1182
01:52:36,333 --> 01:52:38,750
things you find small you find small

1183
01:52:38,750 --> 01:52:42,125
bronzy small dusky as well in the stomach

1184
01:52:42,125 --> 01:52:43,791
of the shark and John Bass

1185
01:52:43,791 --> 01:52:45,208
had a lot of data on that.

1186
01:52:45,875 --> 01:52:47,625
I had the fortunate thing that I knew

1187
01:52:47,625 --> 01:52:49,375
Leonard when he was in California working

1188
01:52:49,375 --> 01:52:51,291
on the sharks of the world the FAO guide

1189
01:52:51,291 --> 01:52:53,833
And he had a lot of data from California

1190
01:52:53,833 --> 01:52:56,166
same type of pattern. So what you're

1191
01:52:56,166 --> 01:52:57,416
saying about these sharks

1192
01:52:58,000 --> 01:53:00,083
Their main and I this is where I really

1193
01:53:00,083 --> 01:53:02,041
kind of really on board with you is that

1194
01:53:02,041 --> 01:53:03,708
I think if you're removing

1195
01:53:04,375 --> 01:53:05,750
Their prey items which

1196
01:53:05,750 --> 01:53:06,833
are a lot of these sharks

1197
01:53:07,416 --> 01:53:09,000
That's that's having an

1198
01:53:09,000 --> 01:53:10,291
impact and that's kind of the thing

1199
01:53:10,291 --> 01:53:13,250
I've been my lost shark program is really

1200
01:53:13,250 --> 01:53:15,333
focused on looking for these things

1201
01:53:15,625 --> 01:53:16,916
These sharks that are disappearing

1202
01:53:16,916 --> 01:53:19,000
because nobody's generally looking at a

1203
01:53:19,000 --> 01:53:20,458
muscle is out there. Nobody's paying

1204
01:53:20,458 --> 01:53:21,375
Nobody's paying that much

1205
01:53:21,375 --> 01:53:23,333
attention soup fin a little more

1206
01:53:23,416 --> 01:53:25,166
But there's a lot of other sort of

1207
01:53:25,166 --> 01:53:26,916
smaller sharks that nobody pays any

1208
01:53:26,916 --> 01:53:28,166
attention to and you're

1209
01:53:28,166 --> 01:53:29,291
talking also stingrays

1210
01:53:29,375 --> 01:53:31,291
They're talking st. Joseph sharks

1211
01:53:31,291 --> 01:53:33,250
chimeras. These are all things that are

1212
01:53:33,250 --> 01:53:34,541
eaten by white sharks and

1213
01:53:34,541 --> 01:53:36,416
other sort of higher level

1214
01:53:36,708 --> 01:53:38,541
Sevegill sharks another example that are

1215
01:53:38,541 --> 01:53:40,708
eating these things, but nobody's paying

1216
01:53:40,708 --> 01:53:41,750
any attention those things

1217
01:53:41,750 --> 01:53:43,791
That's again. I kind of been trying to

1218
01:53:43,791 --> 01:53:45,541
raise the banner this for deck going back

1219
01:53:45,541 --> 01:53:47,583
to when I was in this there and

1220
01:53:47,583 --> 01:53:49,541
I know I've talked about I won't go into

1221
01:53:49,541 --> 01:53:50,750
all this stuff today, but

1222
01:53:51,541 --> 01:53:53,083
One of the things that South Africa was

1223
01:53:53,083 --> 01:53:54,458
the first country to have

1224
01:53:54,958 --> 01:53:57,125
protective measures against for white

1225
01:53:57,125 --> 01:53:59,500
sharks started there was be it was driven

1226
01:53:59,500 --> 01:54:01,125
by the fit bait big fishing

1227
01:54:01,125 --> 01:54:02,291
companies Ervin and Johnson

1228
01:54:02,291 --> 01:54:03,875
I and Jay and these are the they were the

1229
01:54:03,875 --> 01:54:05,666
guys that really brought this up about we

1230
01:54:05,666 --> 01:54:07,625
needed to protect the white sharks and

1231
01:54:07,625 --> 01:54:08,541
I can go into the whole thing

1232
01:54:08,583 --> 01:54:10,125
I won't go into now, but why they why

1233
01:54:10,125 --> 01:54:12,208
that came about and I was involved with

1234
01:54:12,208 --> 01:54:13,125
Leonard coming up with a

1235
01:54:13,125 --> 01:54:14,458
lot of this data at the time

1236
01:54:14,458 --> 01:54:15,166
So it's almost they've

1237
01:54:15,166 --> 01:54:17,041
gone in the opposite direction

1238
01:54:17,166 --> 01:54:18,833
Where's now they're fishing and taking

1239
01:54:18,833 --> 01:54:20,791
out these from talking to you cuz I

1240
01:54:20,791 --> 01:54:22,875
haven't been there for decades now

1241
01:54:22,875 --> 01:54:24,833
But a lot of these sharks are taking out

1242
01:54:24,833 --> 01:54:27,125
have their populations have gone down now

1243
01:54:27,125 --> 01:54:28,125
You're seeing the white sharks have

1244
01:54:28,125 --> 01:54:30,750
probably had to move off to find better

1245
01:54:30,750 --> 01:54:31,750
hunting grounds for them

1246
01:54:31,791 --> 01:54:35,041
If I kind of kind of summarize it if the

1247
01:54:35,041 --> 01:54:36,666
because that's what you're from what

1248
01:54:36,666 --> 01:54:37,583
you're describing is a

1249
01:54:37,583 --> 01:54:39,250
completely different situation

1250
01:54:39,583 --> 01:54:39,791
Yeah

1251
01:54:39,791 --> 01:54:45,708
Everyone always thinks you know my

1252
01:54:45,708 --> 01:54:47,666
background is just white sharks, but it's

1253
01:54:47,666 --> 01:54:49,375
not it's working with the check nets

1254
01:54:49,375 --> 01:54:51,833
I did more than seven hundred and fifty

1255
01:54:51,833 --> 01:54:52,958
different nettings

1256
01:54:52,958 --> 01:54:54,083
with them that represents

1257
01:54:54,166 --> 01:54:56,125
you know nearly two decades worth of

1258
01:54:56,125 --> 01:54:58,208
going to those nets and I saw huge

1259
01:54:58,208 --> 01:55:00,250
changes in what they catching there and

1260
01:55:00,958 --> 01:55:03,541
When I started needing to make a living

1261
01:55:03,541 --> 01:55:06,041
out of you know my passion my wife

1262
01:55:06,041 --> 01:55:07,500
Monique and I we started running

1263
01:55:07,666 --> 01:55:09,375
Another trip during our off-season

1264
01:55:09,375 --> 01:55:11,625
because remember I mentioned that the

1265
01:55:11,625 --> 01:55:13,250
white sharks around the seal colonies for

1266
01:55:13,250 --> 01:55:14,458
five six months a year

1267
01:55:14,458 --> 01:55:16,750
So now out of that time we used to work

1268
01:55:16,750 --> 01:55:17,708
with other species of

1269
01:55:17,708 --> 01:55:18,625
sharks and one of the trips

1270
01:55:18,625 --> 01:55:19,916
We ran was a trip called

1271
01:55:19,916 --> 01:55:21,166
sharks of Southern Africa

1272
01:55:21,500 --> 01:55:23,833
Along a beautiful stretch of coastline

1273
01:55:23,833 --> 01:55:26,083
about 300 kilometers east of Cape Town

1274
01:55:26,083 --> 01:55:28,833
called to her and in those early days

1275
01:55:29,750 --> 01:55:32,000
And it wasn't even the early days. This

1276
01:55:32,000 --> 01:55:34,666
was really from about 2000 to 2015 or so

1277
01:55:34,666 --> 01:55:37,375
It wasn't uncommon for us on most days to

1278
01:55:37,375 --> 01:55:39,458
see 500 juvenile hammerheads

1279
01:55:39,458 --> 01:55:40,541
And we used to see

1280
01:55:40,541 --> 01:55:42,416
schools of you know maybe

1281
01:55:42,666 --> 01:55:45,541
100 200 together was incredible and we'd

1282
01:55:45,541 --> 01:55:47,291
see you know on any given day

1283
01:55:47,291 --> 01:55:49,250
maybe 50 to 100 bronze waders

1284
01:55:49,250 --> 01:55:51,083
I took photographs of two breaching at

1285
01:55:51,083 --> 01:55:53,708
the same time and then further down

1286
01:55:53,708 --> 01:55:55,083
We'd see all this all the smallest

1287
01:55:55,083 --> 01:55:56,375
species of sharks and when these

1288
01:55:56,375 --> 01:55:57,625
longliners started appearing

1289
01:55:57,875 --> 01:55:59,666
It was almost overnight that

1290
01:55:59,666 --> 01:56:01,458
they started disappearing and

1291
01:56:01,666 --> 01:56:04,666
It didn't take much to put two and two

1292
01:56:04,666 --> 01:56:05,708
together that you know

1293
01:56:05,708 --> 01:56:07,750
They were catching huge numbers and we

1294
01:56:07,750 --> 01:56:08,625
started raising the

1295
01:56:08,625 --> 01:56:10,416
flag you know saying hey

1296
01:56:10,416 --> 01:56:12,000
They're killing huge numbers of

1297
01:56:12,000 --> 01:56:14,375
hammerheads here these animals are you

1298
01:56:14,375 --> 01:56:15,791
know they threaten species

1299
01:56:16,250 --> 01:56:19,541
This is a nursery area, but you know we

1300
01:56:19,541 --> 01:56:20,458
were kind of laughed at

1301
01:56:20,458 --> 01:56:21,583
this. You're not a scientist

1302
01:56:21,583 --> 01:56:22,541
you know what kind of

1303
01:56:22,541 --> 01:56:24,125
what do you know and

1304
01:56:24,291 --> 01:56:26,083
what we started doing then is

1305
01:56:26,791 --> 01:56:28,208
Investigating this more and more chatting

1306
01:56:28,208 --> 01:56:30,125
to a few more locals that we're seeing

1307
01:56:30,125 --> 01:56:30,916
what these boats were

1308
01:56:30,916 --> 01:56:31,916
doing further up the coast

1309
01:56:31,916 --> 01:56:33,208
And we saw the same thing happening

1310
01:56:33,208 --> 01:56:35,125
there, and then in around about

1311
01:56:36,166 --> 01:56:39,125
2018 2019 you know by that stage

1312
01:56:39,333 --> 01:56:40,125
We had lost the white

1313
01:56:40,125 --> 01:56:41,750
sharks very sadly in false bay

1314
01:56:41,750 --> 01:56:44,125
And it was devastating for for Monique

1315
01:56:44,125 --> 01:56:46,333
and I and and our crew and all the other

1316
01:56:46,333 --> 01:56:47,916
people that have become such passionate

1317
01:56:48,333 --> 01:56:50,041
supporters and lovers of these animals

1318
01:56:50,041 --> 01:56:52,500
that we decided we wanted to really

1319
01:56:52,500 --> 01:56:54,625
assess the impact of of the shark

1320
01:56:54,625 --> 01:56:56,000
longline fisheries so my

1321
01:56:56,000 --> 01:56:57,125
wife and I sponsored the

1322
01:56:57,125 --> 01:56:59,666
purchase of a vessel and

1323
01:56:59,666 --> 01:57:01,958
Together with dr. Neil Hamish log who at

1324
01:57:01,958 --> 01:57:02,791
that time was with

1325
01:57:02,791 --> 01:57:03,833
the University of Miami

1326
01:57:04,166 --> 01:57:06,125
He brought two master's

1327
01:57:06,125 --> 01:57:07,916
students over from from Miami

1328
01:57:07,916 --> 01:57:11,000
And we started looking at the efficacy of

1329
01:57:11,000 --> 01:57:13,458
de Woop as a shark sanctuary

1330
01:57:13,458 --> 01:57:17,083
And then the impact that this fishery was

1331
01:57:17,083 --> 01:57:19,500
having on those animals that there was

1332
01:57:19,500 --> 01:57:21,666
never a boundary to a marine reserve

1333
01:57:21,750 --> 01:57:23,458
There's no fences so the sharks don't

1334
01:57:23,458 --> 01:57:25,041
know you know where

1335
01:57:25,041 --> 01:57:26,416
the reserve ends or not

1336
01:57:26,416 --> 01:57:28,625
What impact that this fishery was having

1337
01:57:28,625 --> 01:57:31,375
on these various species of sharks

1338
01:57:31,375 --> 01:57:32,750
because we believe

1339
01:57:32,750 --> 01:57:34,291
that they were catching

1340
01:57:34,750 --> 01:57:36,875
Thousands of protected hammerheads and at

1341
01:57:36,875 --> 01:57:39,000
that stage the government was saying no

1342
01:57:39,000 --> 01:57:41,041
They're not in fact if you go look at

1343
01:57:41,041 --> 01:57:42,958
their data the data says no

1344
01:57:42,958 --> 01:57:44,333
They're not they're catching pretty much

1345
01:57:44,333 --> 01:57:46,708
zero, but what we found by replicating

1346
01:57:47,208 --> 01:57:49,750
The the techniques that they were using

1347
01:57:49,750 --> 01:57:51,625
in terms of the baits they were using and

1348
01:57:51,625 --> 01:57:53,750
where they were fishing is that almost?

1349
01:57:54,250 --> 01:57:56,125
one-for-one they would have been catching

1350
01:57:56,125 --> 01:57:58,833
things like smooth hammerheads and

1351
01:57:58,833 --> 01:58:00,375
things like spotted gully sharks

1352
01:58:00,375 --> 01:58:02,541
Which is also protected and almost

1353
01:58:02,541 --> 01:58:04,541
endemic shark species in South Africa and

1354
01:58:04,541 --> 01:58:06,333
then all the little endemic species

1355
01:58:06,333 --> 01:58:08,333
so you talk about things like

1356
01:58:08,416 --> 01:58:11,125
puff out of shire sharks and brown shire

1357
01:58:11,125 --> 01:58:13,000
sharks and striped cat sharks and leopard

1358
01:58:13,000 --> 01:58:14,250
cat sharks and all those things

1359
01:58:14,625 --> 01:58:16,458
What we started seeing is hey

1360
01:58:16,458 --> 01:58:17,666
these guys have to be catching

1361
01:58:18,250 --> 01:58:19,541
Hundreds if not thousands

1362
01:58:19,541 --> 01:58:20,833
of them, you know because

1363
01:58:21,500 --> 01:58:22,750
Purely because of their fishing

1364
01:58:22,750 --> 01:58:24,416
techniques. So we published a paper on

1365
01:58:24,416 --> 01:58:25,708
that saying, you know

1366
01:58:25,708 --> 01:58:26,833
Yes, the reserve is very important

1367
01:58:27,333 --> 01:58:29,625
But by the tagging data could we also

1368
01:58:29,625 --> 01:58:30,875
used acoustic tags on

1369
01:58:30,875 --> 01:58:31,625
the little hammerheads?

1370
01:58:31,625 --> 01:58:34,083
We could show that they had no clue where

1371
01:58:34,083 --> 01:58:35,791
the boundaries of marine reserves were

1372
01:58:35,791 --> 01:58:37,250
and unless you created a

1373
01:58:37,250 --> 01:58:38,666
buffer on the edges of those

1374
01:58:38,666 --> 01:58:40,625
reserves essentially you fish on the edge

1375
01:58:40,625 --> 01:58:41,416
you catch what's on

1376
01:58:41,416 --> 01:58:43,083
the inside as well and

1377
01:58:43,916 --> 01:58:46,375
What we found from the the whistleblower

1378
01:58:46,375 --> 01:58:48,333
when he came forward is, you know

1379
01:58:48,333 --> 01:58:50,166
He corroborated exactly what the data

1380
01:58:50,166 --> 01:58:52,625
showed and he spoke about them how they

1381
01:58:52,625 --> 01:58:55,083
would catch the gully sharks and the

1382
01:58:55,083 --> 01:58:55,916
smooth and the smooth

1383
01:58:55,916 --> 01:58:58,083
Hammerheads simply cut off their heads

1384
01:58:58,083 --> 01:58:59,791
cut off their fins and smuggle them into

1385
01:58:59,791 --> 01:59:01,333
the catch and he spoke

1386
01:59:01,333 --> 01:59:02,875
about the thousands of

1387
01:59:02,958 --> 01:59:04,958
Endemic sharks that they caught and

1388
01:59:04,958 --> 01:59:06,250
because they had no value

1389
01:59:06,291 --> 01:59:08,083
They would just cut off their heads to

1390
01:59:08,083 --> 01:59:09,625
get the hooks out because it was too much

1391
01:59:09,625 --> 01:59:11,375
of a mission to now gently try and get

1392
01:59:11,416 --> 01:59:13,458
A little hook out you either bash him

1393
01:59:13,458 --> 01:59:14,750
senseless over the side of

1394
01:59:14,750 --> 01:59:16,000
the boat and take the hooks out

1395
01:59:16,000 --> 01:59:17,416
He'll cut their heads off and take the

1396
01:59:17,416 --> 01:59:20,208
hooks out. So it didn't take much to

1397
01:59:20,208 --> 01:59:23,166
realize that, you know, we losing a

1398
01:59:23,166 --> 01:59:25,041
Huge part of our natural heritage here

1399
01:59:25,041 --> 01:59:26,666
because of this highly destructive

1400
01:59:26,666 --> 01:59:29,125
fishery and yes further up the coast

1401
01:59:29,125 --> 01:59:31,125
You know like you Dave

1402
01:59:31,125 --> 01:59:33,500
I also spent time in Langobon looking at

1403
01:59:33,500 --> 01:59:35,416
those smooth iron sharks and

1404
01:59:35,416 --> 01:59:37,291
In false bay with all those species and

1405
01:59:37,291 --> 01:59:38,125
further up the coast

1406
01:59:38,125 --> 01:59:39,833
And I'm sure people who were further up

1407
01:59:39,833 --> 01:59:41,333
the coast could say the same thing

1408
01:59:41,541 --> 01:59:43,250
What has happened to South

1409
01:59:43,250 --> 01:59:44,583
Africa shark populations?

1410
01:59:44,583 --> 01:59:45,916
I know I'm sounding like a

1411
01:59:45,916 --> 01:59:46,958
bloody prophet of doom here

1412
01:59:46,958 --> 01:59:49,083
But the reality needs to be told is

1413
01:59:49,083 --> 01:59:51,083
nothing short of catastrophic and if we

1414
01:59:51,083 --> 01:59:52,833
have to look and I'm going to be

1415
01:59:53,125 --> 01:59:55,375
Perfectly honest here if we have to look

1416
01:59:55,375 --> 01:59:56,333
at how stocks have been

1417
01:59:56,333 --> 01:59:57,750
managed in South Africa

1418
01:59:57,791 --> 01:59:59,708
Despite many people saying it's amongst

1419
01:59:59,708 --> 02:00:01,333
the best managed shark fishery in the

1420
02:00:01,333 --> 02:00:03,083
world. Just look at the scoreboard

1421
02:00:03,083 --> 02:00:04,625
We no longer have great one sharks

1422
02:00:04,708 --> 02:00:07,083
You hardly see a blue shock the smith

1423
02:00:07,083 --> 02:00:09,166
hamades are a fraction of what they were

1424
02:00:09,166 --> 02:00:12,041
the endemic sharks have gone to to shite

1425
02:00:12,041 --> 02:00:14,625
and you know species like the two primary

1426
02:00:14,625 --> 02:00:17,541
target species the smith hound shark and

1427
02:00:17,541 --> 02:00:19,833
the superman shark have gone from being

1428
02:00:19,958 --> 02:00:22,500
listed as near threatened and

1429
02:00:22,500 --> 02:00:24,333
I think that one with I think the smith

1430
02:00:24,333 --> 02:00:26,000
hounds weren't even listed as threatened

1431
02:00:26,000 --> 02:00:27,833
historically when the fishery started

1432
02:00:28,041 --> 02:00:30,125
They now listed as endangered and

1433
02:00:30,125 --> 02:00:31,583
critically endangered and we

1434
02:00:31,583 --> 02:00:33,458
still have dedicated vessels

1435
02:00:34,250 --> 02:00:36,375
Targeting a species that is imminently

1436
02:00:36,375 --> 02:00:39,125
threatened with extinction. So for me,

1437
02:00:39,125 --> 02:00:41,583
yeah, I am outspoken on this

1438
02:00:41,583 --> 02:00:42,833
I'm very passionate about it

1439
02:00:42,833 --> 02:00:44,250
And I believe we need to shut this

1440
02:00:44,250 --> 02:00:46,250
fishery down if South Africa

1441
02:00:46,250 --> 02:00:47,250
sharks are gonna have a choice

1442
02:00:47,375 --> 02:00:50,208
You know, I think I think it'd be a

1443
02:00:50,208 --> 02:00:51,875
interesting comparison again

1444
02:00:51,875 --> 02:00:53,708
I just kind of have experience in both

1445
02:00:53,708 --> 02:00:55,500
locations is you know in

1446
02:00:55,500 --> 02:00:57,375
California back in 1994

1447
02:00:57,541 --> 02:00:58,833
We they passed their own sort of

1448
02:00:58,833 --> 02:01:00,958
protection for white sharks here was that

1449
02:01:00,958 --> 02:01:01,750
it was South Africa

1450
02:01:01,750 --> 02:01:02,916
Australia and then California

1451
02:01:03,208 --> 02:01:04,041
I was had a little bit of

1452
02:01:04,041 --> 02:01:05,791
involvement in the California one

1453
02:01:06,625 --> 02:01:10,625
but with but in from my experience and

1454
02:01:10,625 --> 02:01:11,750
this is just qualitative

1455
02:01:12,500 --> 02:01:14,625
Observational what really changed the

1456
02:01:14,625 --> 02:01:16,875
dynamics because we have just phenomenal

1457
02:01:16,875 --> 02:01:17,416
white shark

1458
02:01:17,416 --> 02:01:18,875
populations here in California

1459
02:01:18,875 --> 02:01:21,083
We have I'm here in the Monterey area and

1460
02:01:21,083 --> 02:01:22,041
we have just we have

1461
02:01:22,041 --> 02:01:23,958
big pods of orcas out here

1462
02:01:23,958 --> 02:01:25,333
And they occasionally get a white shark,

1463
02:01:25,333 --> 02:01:26,833
but they have not slowed up

1464
02:01:26,833 --> 02:01:28,041
the white shark population

1465
02:01:28,833 --> 02:01:31,208
But what happened in the early 90s around

1466
02:01:31,208 --> 02:01:33,083
the time they did the a

1467
02:01:33,083 --> 02:01:34,083
couple things in the 70s

1468
02:01:34,083 --> 02:01:35,458
They passed the marine mammal protection

1469
02:01:35,458 --> 02:01:37,125
act which protected all the

1470
02:01:37,125 --> 02:01:39,166
gray whales of seals sea otters

1471
02:01:39,375 --> 02:01:41,541
But the other thing is in the early 90s

1472
02:01:41,541 --> 02:01:43,625
they passed they moved it to tram on the

1473
02:01:43,625 --> 02:01:45,333
gill nets further offshore

1474
02:01:45,541 --> 02:01:47,500
They used to be in closer to shore where

1475
02:01:47,500 --> 02:01:49,625
they they would they would catch halibut

1476
02:01:49,625 --> 02:01:51,833
There's a targeted fishery, but that was

1477
02:01:51,833 --> 02:01:54,000
but when they move and but nobody had it

1478
02:01:54,000 --> 02:01:55,125
was paying any attention again

1479
02:01:55,166 --> 02:01:56,625
In the early 90s. Nobody's

1480
02:01:56,625 --> 02:01:57,625
paying attention like well

1481
02:01:57,625 --> 02:01:59,500
How many white sharks they catching but

1482
02:01:59,500 --> 02:02:01,666
they moved them offshore and there really

1483
02:02:01,666 --> 02:02:02,791
is not much of a fishery?

1484
02:02:02,791 --> 02:02:04,333
I don't believe anymore, but they

1485
02:02:04,333 --> 02:02:06,333
definitely moved them offshore and I

1486
02:02:06,333 --> 02:02:07,791
think that combined with the marine

1487
02:02:07,791 --> 02:02:09,041
mammal protection act

1488
02:02:09,416 --> 02:02:11,125
probably did more to

1489
02:02:11,541 --> 02:02:13,291
Enhance the white shark population

1490
02:02:13,291 --> 02:02:14,541
because people if you

1491
02:02:14,541 --> 02:02:16,916
listen to the show here I go out

1492
02:02:17,791 --> 02:02:18,916
Here in the bay. I'll go up in the

1493
02:02:18,916 --> 02:02:19,916
helicopter and up, you know

1494
02:02:19,958 --> 02:02:21,166
We'll go along a two mile

1495
02:02:21,166 --> 02:02:22,916
length of beach out here

1496
02:02:22,916 --> 02:02:24,291
We'll count 40 little

1497
02:02:24,291 --> 02:02:25,500
white sharks out here

1498
02:02:26,041 --> 02:02:28,083
Kind of in that meter and a half to two

1499
02:02:28,083 --> 02:02:30,083
and a half meter length side the small

1500
02:02:30,083 --> 02:02:30,666
ones and there's literally

1501
02:02:30,666 --> 02:02:31,750
They're sitting right in back of the surf

1502
02:02:31,750 --> 02:02:32,875
line and there's hanging out

1503
02:02:32,875 --> 02:02:34,791
there and that but you know

1504
02:02:34,791 --> 02:02:36,375
What also occurs out there a lot of these

1505
02:02:36,375 --> 02:02:38,041
sharks are talking about the hound sharks

1506
02:02:38,041 --> 02:02:41,500
the the soup fin sharks a lot of the bat

1507
02:02:41,500 --> 02:02:43,666
Rays they love bat rays all these things

1508
02:02:43,666 --> 02:02:45,166
are this is all their habitat where they

1509
02:02:45,166 --> 02:02:46,541
hang out and these sharks

1510
02:02:46,625 --> 02:02:48,916
So I think you have in California where

1511
02:02:48,916 --> 02:02:51,000
they move this fishery offshore

1512
02:02:52,208 --> 02:02:54,791
Basically our population went up and here

1513
02:02:54,791 --> 02:02:57,083
this fishery started up in South Africa

1514
02:02:57,083 --> 02:02:58,958
and the population basically of these

1515
02:02:59,333 --> 02:03:00,625
sort of mid-level

1516
02:03:01,583 --> 02:03:01,791
sharks

1517
02:03:02,583 --> 02:03:05,125
mid-level predator trophic level sharks

1518
02:03:05,125 --> 02:03:07,458
disappeared and that's impacted probably

1519
02:03:07,458 --> 02:03:09,916
the white sharks so they've you know, I

1520
02:03:09,916 --> 02:03:11,708
Think it's just an interesting case from

1521
02:03:11,708 --> 02:03:13,041
two locations that I don't know

1522
02:03:13,083 --> 02:03:16,291
If you've talked to Chris low much he's

1523
02:03:16,291 --> 02:03:17,708
got a better hand lot more.

1524
02:03:17,708 --> 02:03:18,833
He's been working on it for

1525
02:03:19,500 --> 02:03:21,666
Longer and I have but I've just from I've

1526
02:03:21,666 --> 02:03:22,875
just been around long enough to see

1527
02:03:22,875 --> 02:03:23,708
what's been going on

1528
02:03:23,708 --> 02:03:25,500
But it just seems to be a good

1529
02:03:26,041 --> 02:03:28,666
Dual case study of what happens with you

1530
02:03:28,666 --> 02:03:30,708
if you take out these sort of these

1531
02:03:30,708 --> 02:03:31,791
different coastal

1532
02:03:31,791 --> 02:03:33,458
small coastal shark species

1533
02:03:34,458 --> 02:03:37,000
100% I mean that you know, I hate South

1534
02:03:37,000 --> 02:03:38,791
Africa to be that case in point because I

1535
02:03:38,791 --> 02:03:40,375
also used to fly in the helicopters and

1536
02:03:40,416 --> 02:03:44,083
You know, we'd see ten fifteen big, you

1537
02:03:44,083 --> 02:03:46,666
know sub adult or adult great whites from

1538
02:03:46,666 --> 02:03:48,083
Strandfentang to Musenburg

1539
02:03:48,916 --> 02:03:51,208
And it was similar of cons by and you

1540
02:03:51,208 --> 02:03:53,833
know that that sort of area and yes

1541
02:03:53,958 --> 02:03:57,000
We are we are that tragic case study and

1542
02:03:57,000 --> 02:03:59,250
yes South Africa on the 1st of April

1543
02:04:00,416 --> 02:04:02,250
1991 was the first country in the world

1544
02:04:02,250 --> 02:04:06,083
to protect the the great white shark and

1545
02:04:06,083 --> 02:04:08,916
I very sadly predict under the current

1546
02:04:09,875 --> 02:04:11,458
Circumstances will be the first country

1547
02:04:11,458 --> 02:04:12,666
in the world to lose a significant

1548
02:04:12,666 --> 02:04:14,250
population of great white sharks

1549
02:04:14,250 --> 02:04:16,000
And and for me those animals

1550
02:04:16,000 --> 02:04:18,125
gave me everything and yeah

1551
02:04:18,125 --> 02:04:20,666
It is a tragic case in point and that's

1552
02:04:20,666 --> 02:04:22,125
why you know, we started

1553
02:04:22,125 --> 02:04:23,500
off where I spoke about

1554
02:04:23,750 --> 02:04:25,083
you know how I use my

1555
02:04:25,083 --> 02:04:27,166
photography and story and

1556
02:04:27,166 --> 02:04:28,333
This was one of the

1557
02:04:28,333 --> 02:04:30,000
capitalists when I took the last ever

1558
02:04:30,416 --> 02:04:32,375
significant photograph of a breaching

1559
02:04:32,375 --> 02:04:33,750
great white at Seal Island

1560
02:04:33,791 --> 02:04:34,291
I

1561
02:04:34,875 --> 02:04:36,458
Kind of had been there from the beginning

1562
02:04:36,458 --> 02:04:38,500
spend more than three and a half thousand

1563
02:04:38,500 --> 02:04:40,625
days at sea with them. We recorded

1564
02:04:42,041 --> 02:04:44,541
10,496 predatory events and I took that

1565
02:04:44,541 --> 02:04:46,458
last ever photo and that was in a space

1566
02:04:46,458 --> 02:04:48,416
of you know, 22 years

1567
02:04:48,416 --> 02:04:51,375
And if you think about it, that was

1568
02:04:51,375 --> 02:04:53,333
probably the most spectacular behavior

1569
02:04:53,333 --> 02:04:55,541
those flying great white sharks ever seen

1570
02:04:55,541 --> 02:04:57,500
by humans in the animals

1571
02:04:57,833 --> 02:04:59,416
for many million year

1572
02:04:59,416 --> 02:05:01,625
history and we lost them in 22 and

1573
02:05:02,333 --> 02:05:04,291
If that is not an incredibly powerful

1574
02:05:04,291 --> 02:05:06,208
story of how quickly this

1575
02:05:06,208 --> 02:05:08,125
thing can really go tits up

1576
02:05:08,666 --> 02:05:11,125
You know, I don't know what else is and

1577
02:05:11,125 --> 02:05:14,416
yes you guys implemented measures that

1578
02:05:14,416 --> 02:05:16,375
maybe by chance or by circumstance

1579
02:05:16,833 --> 02:05:19,500
Aided the white sharks recovery. We've

1580
02:05:19,500 --> 02:05:21,708
done exactly the opposite and

1581
02:05:21,750 --> 02:05:23,875
You know, the ramifications are huge. We

1582
02:05:23,875 --> 02:05:25,000
don't fully understand them

1583
02:05:25,000 --> 02:05:25,250
Yes

1584
02:05:25,250 --> 02:05:27,083
We did a paper I did a paper with Neil

1585
02:05:27,083 --> 02:05:29,333
and a couple of other co-authors where we

1586
02:05:29,333 --> 02:05:31,416
looked at the cascade effect of losing

1587
02:05:31,500 --> 02:05:32,833
A white shock so we did two

1588
02:05:33,791 --> 02:05:36,000
One we started looking at what happened

1589
02:05:36,000 --> 02:05:37,291
at Seal Island and when

1590
02:05:37,291 --> 02:05:38,375
the white sharks disappeared

1591
02:05:38,541 --> 02:05:40,916
It was quite incredible almost overnight

1592
02:05:40,916 --> 02:05:43,875
the seven gills a period so they filled

1593
02:05:43,875 --> 02:05:45,291
the niche of the white sharks, but

1594
02:05:45,791 --> 02:05:48,333
They don't hunt active seals and the

1595
02:05:48,333 --> 02:05:50,541
seals in return because the white sharks

1596
02:05:50,541 --> 02:05:51,166
were no longer there

1597
02:05:51,166 --> 02:05:53,250
They changed their behavior very very

1598
02:05:53,250 --> 02:05:54,833
quickly. So they used

1599
02:05:54,833 --> 02:05:56,208
to have very very set

1600
02:05:57,208 --> 02:05:57,750
anti-predatory

1601
02:05:58,625 --> 02:06:00,375
Strategies they used to leave the island

1602
02:06:00,375 --> 02:06:01,291
and well coordinated

1603
02:06:01,291 --> 02:06:02,750
groups mostly at night

1604
02:06:02,750 --> 02:06:04,583
And if they left in the day, they'll be

1605
02:06:04,583 --> 02:06:06,416
highly structured that all fell apart

1606
02:06:06,416 --> 02:06:08,125
They suddenly started feeding around the

1607
02:06:08,125 --> 02:06:09,625
island and in areas where

1608
02:06:09,625 --> 02:06:10,958
they hadn't previously fed

1609
02:06:10,958 --> 02:06:12,833
So that will obviously have a cascade

1610
02:06:12,833 --> 02:06:14,666
effect and then Neil

1611
02:06:14,666 --> 02:06:16,250
did another comparative

1612
02:06:16,375 --> 02:06:18,041
So there was a paper done and I think

1613
02:06:18,041 --> 02:06:20,000
according to was 2010 or 2012

1614
02:06:20,291 --> 02:06:21,875
Where they looked at the species

1615
02:06:21,875 --> 02:06:23,250
composition in false bed

1616
02:06:23,250 --> 02:06:25,041
And that was at a time where we still had

1617
02:06:25,041 --> 02:06:26,791
pretty decent numbers of white sharks

1618
02:06:27,458 --> 02:06:29,583
we did the same study more than a decade

1619
02:06:29,583 --> 02:06:32,250
later and so much of the composition of

1620
02:06:32,250 --> 02:06:34,875
the bay had completely changed and

1621
02:06:34,958 --> 02:06:37,708
You know we very strongly of a suspicion

1622
02:06:37,708 --> 02:06:39,500
if you take out that apex predator

1623
02:06:39,500 --> 02:06:42,041
Just like that famous paper where you

1624
02:06:42,041 --> 02:06:43,916
remove the world wolves out of

1625
02:06:44,250 --> 02:06:46,416
Yellowstone you take the great whites out

1626
02:06:46,416 --> 02:06:47,166
of the picture. It has a

1627
02:06:47,166 --> 02:06:48,416
huge cascade effect and

1628
02:06:48,958 --> 02:06:51,458
It's very easy for me to say well now

1629
02:06:51,458 --> 02:06:53,000
we've got seven girls there and the seals

1630
02:06:53,000 --> 02:06:54,875
You know don't do what they used to do

1631
02:06:54,875 --> 02:06:56,166
and they feeding in different areas

1632
02:06:56,333 --> 02:06:58,708
But what are the smaller cascade effects

1633
02:06:58,708 --> 02:07:00,333
that I've got no clue of?

1634
02:07:01,083 --> 02:07:03,375
You know well I think I

1635
02:07:03,375 --> 02:07:05,125
Say I think you're hitting on the whole

1636
02:07:05,125 --> 02:07:08,041
thing like everybody's focused on the

1637
02:07:08,041 --> 02:07:09,291
white shark for example

1638
02:07:09,291 --> 02:07:10,583
And that's not where you need to be

1639
02:07:10,583 --> 02:07:12,625
looking that's not you know

1640
02:07:12,625 --> 02:07:14,666
It's it's you need to be looking at these

1641
02:07:14,666 --> 02:07:16,250
other sharks that you're talking about

1642
02:07:16,250 --> 02:07:17,500
like the the hound sharks

1643
02:07:17,750 --> 02:07:19,916
The soup fin sharks and you know we're

1644
02:07:19,916 --> 02:07:20,625
not even really taught the

1645
02:07:20,625 --> 02:07:22,041
rays are important like that

1646
02:07:22,291 --> 02:07:24,875
The bull rays and I mean I can I know

1647
02:07:24,875 --> 02:07:26,375
white sharks love to eat and those they

1648
02:07:26,375 --> 02:07:27,500
snap those things up here in

1649
02:07:27,500 --> 02:07:29,458
California and I know they do in South

1650
02:07:29,458 --> 02:07:31,041
Africa, so you're not even here. We're

1651
02:07:31,041 --> 02:07:31,666
talking about the

1652
02:07:31,666 --> 02:07:33,916
these these hound sharks

1653
02:07:33,916 --> 02:07:35,125
We're not even talking about like the

1654
02:07:35,125 --> 02:07:37,625
freaking rays out there and stuff and and

1655
02:07:37,625 --> 02:07:39,375
I can tell you cuz a

1656
02:07:39,375 --> 02:07:40,291
lot of the people here

1657
02:07:40,416 --> 02:07:42,166
Go back to about you know

1658
02:07:42,791 --> 02:07:44,625
2000 or so early 2000s

1659
02:07:44,625 --> 02:07:45,541
with the white shark stuff

1660
02:07:45,541 --> 02:07:48,250
I go back to the 80s and like places like

1661
02:07:48,250 --> 02:07:49,833
Miller's point out there the

1662
02:07:49,833 --> 02:07:51,000
boulders net area out there

1663
02:07:51,416 --> 02:07:54,125
I dove all over that place for over a

1664
02:07:54,125 --> 02:07:54,833
year looking at

1665
02:07:54,833 --> 02:07:56,333
studying the the cat sharks

1666
02:07:56,791 --> 02:07:59,125
You never saw a seven-gill never saw a

1667
02:07:59,125 --> 02:08:00,791
seven-gill, but white sharks

1668
02:08:00,958 --> 02:08:03,291
They were around but never saw a

1669
02:08:03,291 --> 02:08:05,500
seven-gill out and now that's like I

1670
02:08:05,500 --> 02:08:06,375
talked to people like

1671
02:08:06,375 --> 02:08:08,125
Allison cock and Allison town

1672
02:08:08,166 --> 02:08:09,500
they're real common out

1673
02:08:09,500 --> 02:08:10,791
there the seven gills, but I

1674
02:08:11,583 --> 02:08:13,458
Crawl and I was studying seven gills

1675
02:08:13,458 --> 02:08:15,291
So believe me if there's a seven-gill

1676
02:08:15,291 --> 02:08:16,666
around off Miller's point I

1677
02:08:16,666 --> 02:08:17,791
would have seen it back then

1678
02:08:17,791 --> 02:08:19,541
Not that they didn't catch him once in a

1679
02:08:19,541 --> 02:08:20,125
while, but you just

1680
02:08:20,125 --> 02:08:21,625
never saw him diving sure

1681
02:08:22,208 --> 02:08:24,625
You know so I think that's the kind of

1682
02:08:24,958 --> 02:08:26,208
exactly, you know, there's so little

1683
02:08:26,208 --> 02:08:28,500
baseline data out there and

1684
02:08:28,500 --> 02:08:30,125
I think it's so important to have that as

1685
02:08:30,125 --> 02:08:31,750
a reference point and like you say, you

1686
02:08:31,750 --> 02:08:34,916
know in the in the early mid 90s

1687
02:08:35,666 --> 02:08:38,208
You know another very well respected

1688
02:08:38,208 --> 02:08:40,375
scientist colleague of yours Malcolm

1689
02:08:40,375 --> 02:08:41,708
Smale is working with

1690
02:08:42,583 --> 02:08:44,791
Marcel cruiser and they were doing a

1691
02:08:44,791 --> 02:08:47,000
study to see the viability of

1692
02:08:47,333 --> 02:08:48,708
actually longline

1693
02:08:48,708 --> 02:08:50,916
fishing in South Africa and

1694
02:08:50,916 --> 02:08:52,916
the catch rates of things like smooth

1695
02:08:52,916 --> 02:08:54,666
hounds and false baes to be amongst the

1696
02:08:54,666 --> 02:08:56,541
highest ever recorded and

1697
02:08:56,541 --> 02:08:58,583
You know your garden you'll be catching

1698
02:08:58,583 --> 02:09:00,208
smooth hounds of like 30 kilograms

1699
02:09:00,416 --> 02:09:02,291
It was unheard of these ginormous things

1700
02:09:02,291 --> 02:09:03,625
that were you know nearly

1701
02:09:03,625 --> 02:09:05,833
my height 1.6 1.7 meters

1702
02:09:05,833 --> 02:09:07,333
I used to see him I can

1703
02:09:07,333 --> 02:09:08,958
vouch for that I exactly

1704
02:09:09,041 --> 02:09:11,291
Yeah, they no longer exist and I think

1705
02:09:11,291 --> 02:09:12,500
you know I sit on a

1706
02:09:12,500 --> 02:09:14,000
terrestrial level to in fact

1707
02:09:14,000 --> 02:09:16,500
I was just talking to someone just a few

1708
02:09:16,500 --> 02:09:19,250
days ago about how few insects we now see

1709
02:09:19,250 --> 02:09:21,125
in Cape Town and other areas and

1710
02:09:21,125 --> 02:09:22,333
Everyone thinks I'll keep down so

1711
02:09:22,333 --> 02:09:23,375
beautiful and it is

1712
02:09:23,375 --> 02:09:25,416
beautiful. Don't get me wrong. Oh, yeah

1713
02:09:25,416 --> 02:09:28,125
I think what we really are overlooking is

1714
02:09:28,125 --> 02:09:30,291
what's happening at the bottom of the

1715
02:09:30,291 --> 02:09:31,416
food chain, you know

1716
02:09:31,583 --> 02:09:33,333
Insects used to be everywhere because

1717
02:09:33,333 --> 02:09:35,250
when we drive when we go photograph in

1718
02:09:35,250 --> 02:09:37,000
Botswana or Namibia or Zimbabwe

1719
02:09:37,000 --> 02:09:39,125
we we're driving, you know, two three

1720
02:09:39,125 --> 02:09:42,041
four thousand kilometers often and

1721
02:09:42,208 --> 02:09:44,458
In the early days your windshield you are

1722
02:09:44,458 --> 02:09:46,041
constantly complaining because you have

1723
02:09:46,041 --> 02:09:46,916
to stop at the garage

1724
02:09:46,916 --> 02:09:47,875
and have your windscreen

1725
02:09:48,208 --> 02:09:50,666
Cleaned with all the insects that used to

1726
02:09:50,666 --> 02:09:53,583
hit nowadays. I can almost do an entire

1727
02:09:53,583 --> 02:09:55,041
trip without cleaning a windscreen

1728
02:09:55,833 --> 02:09:58,208
So yeah, I think I think I think this is

1729
02:09:58,208 --> 02:10:01,375
a real and I wish I had a larger podium

1730
02:10:01,375 --> 02:10:02,750
to tell these stories on you

1731
02:10:02,750 --> 02:10:05,416
Know in terms of all of us that we could

1732
02:10:05,416 --> 02:10:06,125
stand in front of the

1733
02:10:06,125 --> 02:10:08,250
bloody United Nations and say hey

1734
02:10:08,291 --> 02:10:10,041
We need to catch a wake up

1735
02:10:10,041 --> 02:10:12,125
here because we are shifting

1736
02:10:12,791 --> 02:10:15,000
Ecosystems and if you think you know I

1737
02:10:15,000 --> 02:10:17,041
now know I'm going on my usual crazy

1738
02:10:17,833 --> 02:10:18,833
Tangent here, but if you

1739
02:10:18,833 --> 02:10:19,958
think that phytoplankton

1740
02:10:20,708 --> 02:10:22,250
Provides 50% of the

1741
02:10:22,250 --> 02:10:23,583
goddamn oxygen we breathe

1742
02:10:23,583 --> 02:10:25,625
I think it's quite important to look off

1743
02:10:25,625 --> 02:10:27,250
to the base of the food chain percent

1744
02:10:28,416 --> 02:10:29,875
Losing a white shock is a

1745
02:10:29,875 --> 02:10:31,750
bloody a bloody big thing

1746
02:10:31,750 --> 02:10:33,750
you know, we've lost the lines of Africa

1747
02:10:33,750 --> 02:10:34,541
in our marine

1748
02:10:34,541 --> 02:10:36,666
ecosystem in South Africa and

1749
02:10:36,666 --> 02:10:38,500
I think these are big things that need to

1750
02:10:38,500 --> 02:10:40,083
be spoken about I think they're big

1751
02:10:40,083 --> 02:10:40,750
things that need to

1752
02:10:40,750 --> 02:10:41,625
be addressed, you know

1753
02:10:41,625 --> 02:10:44,416
Yeah, you all of us have had the most

1754
02:10:44,416 --> 02:10:47,083
incredible lives and we could simply sit

1755
02:10:47,083 --> 02:10:48,375
back in our chairs and say hey

1756
02:10:48,375 --> 02:10:50,416
Hey, check these photos check these

1757
02:10:50,416 --> 02:10:52,083
experiences, you know whoopee

1758
02:10:52,333 --> 02:10:54,458
Yeah, but by having virtue of having

1759
02:10:54,458 --> 02:10:55,833
these incredible experiences

1760
02:10:55,833 --> 02:10:58,250
We know what it can be and the generation

1761
02:10:58,250 --> 02:11:00,333
before us knew what it could be as well

1762
02:11:00,333 --> 02:11:02,208
And I really hope my generation was going

1763
02:11:02,208 --> 02:11:03,875
to be the one to say hey, it's better

1764
02:11:03,875 --> 02:11:05,625
than than dads or grandpas

1765
02:11:05,625 --> 02:11:07,125
But right, right

1766
02:11:07,125 --> 02:11:08,666
right, yeah

1767
02:11:09,250 --> 02:11:11,625
Unfortunately, we yeah, I reach people. I

1768
02:11:11,625 --> 02:11:12,750
didn't mean to touch what's happening

1769
02:11:13,375 --> 02:11:15,708
Yeah, and I agree with you. I think we've

1770
02:11:15,708 --> 02:11:16,500
seen this unfortunately

1771
02:11:16,500 --> 02:11:18,125
time and time again, you know

1772
02:11:18,375 --> 02:11:20,375
Here in Canada, we saw it with the with

1773
02:11:20,375 --> 02:11:22,833
the cod stocks that just collapsed, you

1774
02:11:22,833 --> 02:11:24,125
know in the early 90s

1775
02:11:24,125 --> 02:11:25,750
But it wasn't that they just collapsed

1776
02:11:25,750 --> 02:11:27,833
out of nowhere. We had data scientists

1777
02:11:27,833 --> 02:11:29,208
and fishery scientists telling

1778
02:11:29,583 --> 02:11:31,791
You know government officials as well as

1779
02:11:31,791 --> 02:11:33,500
the fishery industry as well as other

1780
02:11:33,500 --> 02:11:34,541
scientists that hey look

1781
02:11:34,541 --> 02:11:37,250
We've seen this this decline in in

1782
02:11:37,250 --> 02:11:38,791
fisheries data and the stock assessments

1783
02:11:38,875 --> 02:11:40,833
That's why we do stock assessments to see

1784
02:11:40,833 --> 02:11:41,958
where there's decline and we're supposed

1785
02:11:41,958 --> 02:11:44,041
to change the management with that

1786
02:11:44,041 --> 02:11:45,333
I think we're seeing the same thing here

1787
02:11:45,333 --> 02:11:45,958
and unfortunately we've

1788
02:11:45,958 --> 02:11:47,333
seen the same thing elsewhere

1789
02:11:47,541 --> 02:11:49,125
You know in other places around the

1790
02:11:49,125 --> 02:11:51,208
world. It's not just you know unique to

1791
02:11:51,208 --> 02:11:54,000
South Africa where it's easy to

1792
02:11:54,208 --> 02:11:57,625
Put blame solely on orcas coming in to

1793
02:11:57,625 --> 02:11:58,458
that are that are

1794
02:11:58,458 --> 02:12:00,500
that may kill a bunch of

1795
02:12:00,750 --> 02:12:03,500
Great whites within a specific session of

1796
02:12:03,500 --> 02:12:06,666
maybe a few days or a week or so that

1797
02:12:06,666 --> 02:12:08,000
probably not helping the

1798
02:12:08,291 --> 02:12:10,291
situation, but there's been years of

1799
02:12:10,875 --> 02:12:13,666
Neglect of looking after the data and and

1800
02:12:13,666 --> 02:12:16,333
and illegal fishing and on on both the

1801
02:12:16,333 --> 02:12:18,125
top and the bottom of the food chain

1802
02:12:18,125 --> 02:12:20,625
We know sharks are our apex predators

1803
02:12:20,666 --> 02:12:22,625
But a lot of times we don't talk about

1804
02:12:22,625 --> 02:12:24,291
the sharks that are in the middle of the

1805
02:12:24,291 --> 02:12:26,125
food chain how important they a role

1806
02:12:26,125 --> 02:12:28,125
They play and I can't even imagine how

1807
02:12:28,125 --> 02:12:29,125
their disappearance has

1808
02:12:29,125 --> 02:12:31,083
changed the rest of the food web

1809
02:12:31,083 --> 02:12:33,333
You know below them and above them and

1810
02:12:33,333 --> 02:12:35,166
and seeing that and that takes monitoring

1811
02:12:35,166 --> 02:12:36,625
that takes data and that takes

1812
02:12:36,875 --> 02:12:39,041
Time and money to put together. I think

1813
02:12:39,041 --> 02:12:41,416
sometimes it's easy to

1814
02:12:42,083 --> 02:12:43,708
Say no, that's not what it is

1815
02:12:43,708 --> 02:12:45,291
It's these orcas that are coming through

1816
02:12:45,291 --> 02:12:47,500
because it's a visual you know the the

1817
02:12:47,500 --> 02:12:48,916
people can see it like oh, yeah

1818
02:12:48,916 --> 02:12:50,625
They're killing a lot of great whites,

1819
02:12:50,625 --> 02:12:52,500
but you don't see the data

1820
02:12:52,500 --> 02:12:55,000
Exactly. Yeah, it's

1821
02:12:55,000 --> 02:12:56,250
usually it's the stuff

1822
02:12:56,250 --> 02:12:58,416
That's you know down at the down at the

1823
02:12:58,416 --> 02:13:00,166
bottom that you know the headlines that

1824
02:13:00,166 --> 02:13:01,833
are you know in the in a maybe a paper

1825
02:13:01,833 --> 02:13:04,416
Or something it's the lost sharks. It's

1826
02:13:04,416 --> 02:13:06,625
the lost literally. It's it's that's

1827
02:13:06,666 --> 02:13:08,875
That's that's literally what it is

1828
02:13:08,875 --> 02:13:10,916
exactly and it's and his papers like like

1829
02:13:10,916 --> 02:13:12,500
what you would you have have

1830
02:13:12,500 --> 02:13:14,250
contributed to and put out?

1831
02:13:14,750 --> 02:13:17,000
with with Neil and others over the years

1832
02:13:17,000 --> 02:13:17,708
and and other people

1833
02:13:17,708 --> 02:13:19,208
who have contributed to to

1834
02:13:19,750 --> 02:13:23,125
This sort of I guess narrative of a story

1835
02:13:23,791 --> 02:13:26,708
And it gets it gets amplified through

1836
02:13:26,708 --> 02:13:28,791
through this podcast. Hopefully as well.

1837
02:13:28,791 --> 02:13:30,333
You know we just had Christian pardon

1838
02:13:30,333 --> 02:13:31,625
We mentioned just before the interview.

1839
02:13:31,625 --> 02:13:34,208
He just did a video on it

1840
02:13:34,583 --> 02:13:35,708
Looking at at both

1841
02:13:35,708 --> 02:13:37,125
sides and seeing like hey

1842
02:13:37,125 --> 02:13:38,208
This is the big debate

1843
02:13:38,208 --> 02:13:39,833
But it's probably not the orcas is

1844
02:13:39,833 --> 02:13:42,083
probably the lack of fisheries data and

1845
02:13:42,083 --> 02:13:43,625
the lack of fisheries monitoring or

1846
02:13:43,625 --> 02:13:44,750
illegal fishing on on

1847
02:13:44,750 --> 02:13:48,000
Both sides and just overfishing on those

1848
02:13:48,000 --> 02:13:49,583
on those lost sharks on those smaller

1849
02:13:49,583 --> 02:13:50,083
sharks that have

1850
02:13:50,083 --> 02:13:51,333
actually contributed to that

1851
02:13:51,333 --> 02:13:54,291
so I guess the question here is I

1852
02:13:54,291 --> 02:13:55,833
Think there's there's there's enough to

1853
02:13:55,833 --> 02:13:58,166
kind of there's enough data and enough of

1854
02:13:58,166 --> 02:13:59,083
a story to look into

1855
02:13:59,125 --> 02:14:01,708
You know the monitoring of these

1856
02:14:01,708 --> 02:14:03,791
fisheries Chris like from from your

1857
02:14:03,791 --> 02:14:04,625
perspective as we kind

1858
02:14:04,625 --> 02:14:05,958
of finish off this episode

1859
02:14:05,958 --> 02:14:08,958
How is the government responded over the

1860
02:14:08,958 --> 02:14:11,416
years and even now that there's more?

1861
02:14:12,250 --> 02:14:13,750
attention towards

1862
02:14:14,000 --> 02:14:15,333
This side of the debate

1863
02:14:15,333 --> 02:14:16,916
and not as much as orca

1864
02:14:16,916 --> 02:14:19,125
I mean I may think that if there's more

1865
02:14:19,125 --> 02:14:21,125
attention now to this side of the

1866
02:14:21,125 --> 02:14:22,333
argument where we're

1867
02:14:22,333 --> 02:14:23,791
seeing in the fisheries aspect

1868
02:14:23,833 --> 02:14:25,416
Have how they responded?

1869
02:14:26,250 --> 02:14:29,083
to to to these papers as

1870
02:14:29,083 --> 02:14:30,833
well as a lot of a lot of

1871
02:14:30,875 --> 02:14:32,208
Prominent people coming out and saying

1872
02:14:32,208 --> 02:14:34,416
hey we need to look at this aspect and

1873
02:14:34,416 --> 02:14:35,333
see if there's

1874
02:14:35,333 --> 02:14:36,291
something that's going on here

1875
02:14:36,291 --> 02:14:44,791
We'll have Chris we'll

1876
02:14:44,791 --> 02:14:46,291
have you back on a wine job

1877
02:14:47,000 --> 02:14:49,250
That's a teaser for the next time we free

1878
02:14:49,250 --> 02:14:51,208
that won't be four years. I

1879
02:14:51,208 --> 02:14:52,166
assume they haven't responded

1880
02:14:53,125 --> 02:14:56,000
Positively to this to this argument and

1881
02:14:56,000 --> 02:14:58,083
really relying on on the orcas

1882
02:14:58,083 --> 02:15:00,000
But have they come around

1883
02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:02,083
or or at least you know?

1884
02:15:02,416 --> 02:15:04,166
Shown a sign of like hey, you know what

1885
02:15:04,166 --> 02:15:05,958
maybe we need to look into this more or

1886
02:15:05,958 --> 02:15:07,375
they just completely cutting it off

1887
02:15:07,375 --> 02:15:10,333
No, so the orcas still maintain the

1888
02:15:10,333 --> 02:15:11,416
primary focus of the

1889
02:15:11,416 --> 02:15:13,125
government related shark scientists

1890
02:15:13,125 --> 02:15:16,291
And and the people that support them and

1891
02:15:16,291 --> 02:15:17,000
the non-government

1892
02:15:17,000 --> 02:15:19,041
scientists very firmly say hey

1893
02:15:19,083 --> 02:15:20,916
We need to address things like the natal

1894
02:15:20,916 --> 02:15:22,250
sharks board and we need to address

1895
02:15:22,250 --> 02:15:22,833
things like the

1896
02:15:22,833 --> 02:15:24,875
demersal shark longline fishery

1897
02:15:24,875 --> 02:15:26,458
and unfortunately the non-government

1898
02:15:26,458 --> 02:15:27,583
scientists don't have the

1899
02:15:27,583 --> 02:15:29,208
sway and they don't have the

1900
02:15:29,583 --> 02:15:31,666
Option to make management decisions and

1901
02:15:31,666 --> 02:15:33,750
so we sit in this terrible situation and

1902
02:15:33,750 --> 02:15:35,500
as an as a non-scientist

1903
02:15:35,500 --> 02:15:36,541
I kind of have seen

1904
02:15:36,541 --> 02:15:38,125
it from from both sides

1905
02:15:38,833 --> 02:15:41,250
And yeah, it's a terrible impasse that we

1906
02:15:41,250 --> 02:15:42,291
sit at and the reality

1907
02:15:42,291 --> 02:15:44,166
is if you blame the orcas

1908
02:15:44,333 --> 02:15:47,041
You kind of are exonerated for bad

1909
02:15:48,041 --> 02:15:49,958
mismanagement and you don't have to do

1910
02:15:49,958 --> 02:15:51,500
anything about it because we can't do

1911
02:15:51,500 --> 02:15:53,208
anything about the orcas and

1912
02:15:53,208 --> 02:15:54,000
Right, you know, this has

1913
02:15:54,000 --> 02:15:55,708
been my issue all along is that?

1914
02:15:56,500 --> 02:15:58,666
Whether whether I'm right or I'm wrong

1915
02:15:59,041 --> 02:16:00,958
Let's address the issues that we can

1916
02:16:00,958 --> 02:16:03,833
address of course and those are the

1917
02:16:03,833 --> 02:16:04,916
anthropogenic issues

1918
02:16:04,958 --> 02:16:06,750
We can't do anything about the bloody

1919
02:16:06,750 --> 02:16:08,458
orcas, you know, they need

1920
02:16:08,458 --> 02:16:09,416
to do what they need to do

1921
02:16:09,416 --> 02:16:11,208
It's a natural phenomenon as Dave said

1922
02:16:11,208 --> 02:16:12,708
the orcas have been predated on white

1923
02:16:12,708 --> 02:16:13,750
sharks at the Farallon

1924
02:16:13,750 --> 02:16:15,000
Islands at the Neptune Islands

1925
02:16:15,083 --> 02:16:17,166
It's a Stewart Islands. It's it's not

1926
02:16:17,166 --> 02:16:19,125
unique to South Africa and the white

1927
02:16:19,125 --> 02:16:20,291
sharks haven't disappeared there

1928
02:16:20,291 --> 02:16:21,458
So hello, there should be a

1929
02:16:21,458 --> 02:16:22,666
bell ringing there straight away

1930
02:16:22,666 --> 02:16:25,750
Yeah, we can address a fishery that is

1931
02:16:25,750 --> 02:16:27,708
targeting for God's sake

1932
02:16:27,708 --> 02:16:29,708
critically endangered species

1933
02:16:30,291 --> 02:16:33,000
Bringing in no money no food security and

1934
02:16:33,000 --> 02:16:34,833
exported to Australia for fish and chips

1935
02:16:34,833 --> 02:16:36,291
where they should not

1936
02:16:36,291 --> 02:16:37,208
be eating these animals

1937
02:16:37,208 --> 02:16:39,541
So yeah, we need in

1938
02:16:39,541 --> 02:16:40,500
my very humble opinion

1939
02:16:40,500 --> 02:16:42,666
We need to get our asses in the gear and

1940
02:16:42,666 --> 02:16:43,791
really start. Yeah, make

1941
02:16:43,791 --> 02:16:44,750
your difference where we can

1942
02:16:45,458 --> 02:16:47,708
Correct Chris. I want to thank you for

1943
02:16:47,708 --> 02:16:49,875
for coming on and kind of giving us more

1944
02:16:49,875 --> 02:16:51,625
like an update on on on

1945
02:16:51,625 --> 02:16:52,833
what data has come out

1946
02:16:52,833 --> 02:16:55,000
And what we've been able to to discover.

1947
02:16:55,000 --> 02:16:56,000
I think this is a really important issue

1948
02:16:56,000 --> 02:16:58,541
You know, we're going to continue to

1949
02:16:58,541 --> 02:17:00,500
discuss it as we go forward

1950
02:17:00,541 --> 02:17:02,458
I'd love to have you back on not only to

1951
02:17:02,458 --> 02:17:05,041
talk about about this and updates and as

1952
02:17:05,041 --> 02:17:06,083
well with your colleagues

1953
02:17:06,083 --> 02:17:08,125
I'm sure we'll have on to but also about

1954
02:17:08,125 --> 02:17:10,041
your amazing photography where

1955
02:17:10,041 --> 02:17:11,500
people can go to Chris fallows

1956
02:17:11,958 --> 02:17:13,625
dot-com to take a look because

1957
02:17:14,083 --> 02:17:15,583
Again, like we said, they're they're

1958
02:17:15,583 --> 02:17:17,500
absolutely amazing and you've been able

1959
02:17:17,500 --> 02:17:18,833
to tell a story and give back

1960
02:17:19,125 --> 02:17:21,666
You know to to the environment as well

1961
02:17:21,875 --> 02:17:23,666
and I think next time Dave when we have

1962
02:17:23,666 --> 02:17:24,500
them back on we'll talk

1963
02:17:24,500 --> 02:17:27,250
about I believe it's the the

1964
02:17:27,458 --> 02:17:29,291
Land you're buying in Namibia and yeah,

1965
02:17:29,291 --> 02:17:30,625
that's going in the sanctuary

1966
02:17:30,625 --> 02:17:32,625
It's going so but I think it's going to

1967
02:17:32,625 --> 02:17:35,750
be absolutely phenomenal. So thank you

1968
02:17:35,750 --> 02:17:36,833
Chris for joining us

1969
02:17:36,875 --> 02:17:40,208
I really do appreciate you you giving us

1970
02:17:40,208 --> 02:17:42,041
an update and being on the show and can't

1971
02:17:42,041 --> 02:17:43,250
wait to have you back

1972
02:17:43,375 --> 02:17:45,166
Andrew Dave, thank you. Thank you again

1973
02:17:45,166 --> 02:17:46,541
and thank you for what you're doing to

1974
02:17:46,541 --> 02:17:48,000
elevate these issues and and

1975
02:17:48,000 --> 02:17:49,583
just a quick shout out for me to

1976
02:17:49,666 --> 02:17:51,666
All scientists who put their heads out of

1977
02:17:51,666 --> 02:17:53,666
the foxholes and stand up for what is

1978
02:17:53,666 --> 02:17:54,833
right and try make a

1979
02:17:54,833 --> 02:17:55,875
difference to those animals

1980
02:17:55,875 --> 02:17:57,541
That have given them their careers. So

1981
02:17:57,541 --> 02:18:00,041
thank you all and look forward to being

1982
02:18:00,041 --> 02:18:00,875
back the next time

1983
02:18:00,875 --> 02:18:02,041
whether you put me in the pot

1984
02:18:02,041 --> 02:18:03,291
I've got the ladle

1985
02:18:07,583 --> 02:18:09,583
Absolutely, thank you. Thank you Chris

1986
02:18:09,583 --> 02:18:10,916
again for coming on the podcast

1987
02:18:11,000 --> 02:18:13,416
We really love you here at the Beyond

1988
02:18:13,416 --> 02:18:14,791
Jaws on the Beyond Jaws podcast

1989
02:18:14,958 --> 02:18:17,666
It is wonderful to have you on again and

1990
02:18:17,666 --> 02:18:19,208
be able to talk about your new

1991
02:18:19,666 --> 02:18:20,958
Photography sort of

1992
02:18:20,958 --> 02:18:21,916
quest. I guess not new

1993
02:18:21,916 --> 02:18:23,875
I guess he's been on this on an op and

1994
02:18:23,875 --> 02:18:27,375
less on white sharks more on on land and

1995
02:18:27,375 --> 02:18:28,666
coming up with you know

1996
02:18:28,666 --> 02:18:31,000
Being able to have this buying up land in

1997
02:18:31,000 --> 02:18:32,500
Namibia to be able to

1998
02:18:32,500 --> 02:18:33,416
have these sanctuaries

1999
02:18:33,458 --> 02:18:35,458
I think is just absolutely wonderful.

2000
02:18:35,875 --> 02:18:38,583
What a way to give back for a career that

2001
02:18:38,583 --> 02:18:40,291
has been very rewarding for him

2002
02:18:40,291 --> 02:18:42,875
And I just think that I love when you get

2003
02:18:42,875 --> 02:18:44,333
people who are so into

2004
02:18:44,500 --> 02:18:46,166
Nature that they want to give back as

2005
02:18:46,166 --> 02:18:47,833
much as possible and he's doing it the

2006
02:18:47,833 --> 02:18:49,166
way he sees him and his wife are doing

2007
02:18:49,166 --> 02:18:50,875
It the way they see fit and

2008
02:18:50,875 --> 02:18:52,291
so we also talked about having

2009
02:18:53,000 --> 02:18:55,375
Either his wife on this podcast or on the

2010
02:18:55,375 --> 02:18:57,000
how to protect the ocean podcast or both

2011
02:18:57,041 --> 02:18:58,833
To be able to talk about what she's been

2012
02:18:58,833 --> 02:19:01,208
up to and so that'll be fun as well

2013
02:19:01,250 --> 02:19:03,250
But we talked about as we said at the

2014
02:19:03,250 --> 02:19:04,666
beginning we talked about

2015
02:19:05,166 --> 02:19:07,000
great whites orcas

2016
02:19:07,000 --> 02:19:10,666
fit overfishing and what is causing the

2017
02:19:10,666 --> 02:19:14,291
decline or even the shift in movement of

2018
02:19:14,291 --> 02:19:17,458
Great whites in South Africa and so we

2019
02:19:17,458 --> 02:19:19,708
got a lot of information on

2020
02:19:19,708 --> 02:19:23,541
The on the overfishing aspect of it and

2021
02:19:23,541 --> 02:19:25,458
look like I'm a scientist

2022
02:19:25,583 --> 02:19:27,416
Usually what happens when you when you

2023
02:19:27,416 --> 02:19:28,291
look at this kind of stuff?

2024
02:19:28,583 --> 02:19:30,625
One thing is it's usually not just one

2025
02:19:30,625 --> 02:19:32,541
thing. It's usually not just orcas

2026
02:19:32,541 --> 02:19:34,833
It's usually not just overfishing, but

2027
02:19:34,833 --> 02:19:35,333
you're looking at

2028
02:19:35,333 --> 02:19:36,750
different scales here, right? Dave

2029
02:19:36,750 --> 02:19:38,250
You're looking at overfishing happens

2030
02:19:38,250 --> 02:19:41,625
over a long term long long term scale and

2031
02:19:41,625 --> 02:19:43,333
then orcas could happen in

2032
02:19:43,333 --> 02:19:45,375
You know very short term they can come in

2033
02:19:45,375 --> 02:19:46,500
in a matter of hours

2034
02:19:46,500 --> 02:19:48,583
We're we're you know, we've decreased the

2035
02:19:48,583 --> 02:19:50,875
shark population by three to ten

2036
02:19:50,875 --> 02:19:52,666
You never know how how efficient these

2037
02:19:52,666 --> 02:19:55,500
these hunters are and and so you can see

2038
02:19:55,500 --> 02:19:57,625
it as more of an acute type of

2039
02:19:58,541 --> 02:20:00,833
Effect where they come in they take a lot

2040
02:20:00,833 --> 02:20:02,375
and they leave and then you have this

2041
02:20:02,375 --> 02:20:03,625
long-term effect where it's

2042
02:20:03,625 --> 02:20:04,791
difficult for the population

2043
02:20:04,791 --> 02:20:07,041
To recover after these other effects and

2044
02:20:07,041 --> 02:20:08,458
then of course you have climate change

2045
02:20:08,458 --> 02:20:09,000
and you have other

2046
02:20:09,000 --> 02:20:10,000
things that are going on

2047
02:20:10,000 --> 02:20:12,791
with these sharks, so, you know as as a

2048
02:20:12,791 --> 02:20:14,625
scientist, how do you

2049
02:20:15,625 --> 02:20:17,958
Untangle this huge web to be like to

2050
02:20:17,958 --> 02:20:21,083
attribute to one or the other or more or

2051
02:20:21,083 --> 02:20:22,625
the other do you just say hey?

2052
02:20:22,625 --> 02:20:23,875
We all need to pitch in

2053
02:20:25,791 --> 02:20:27,208
This is a multi-facet thing

2054
02:20:27,250 --> 02:20:29,500
I mean there were I mean there were orcas

2055
02:20:29,500 --> 02:20:31,875
around here when I was when I was

2056
02:20:32,333 --> 02:20:33,791
Doing my thing back in the day in South

2057
02:20:33,791 --> 02:20:34,666
Africa, which you know,

2058
02:20:34,666 --> 02:20:35,708
they weren't real common

2059
02:20:35,708 --> 02:20:38,041
But you you'd see orca you'd see orcas

2060
02:20:38,041 --> 02:20:39,875
you see if you'd see them out there

2061
02:20:39,875 --> 02:20:41,041
occasionally and stuff

2062
02:20:41,041 --> 02:20:42,750
and but there was plenty of white sharks

2063
02:20:42,750 --> 02:20:44,791
at that time as well and

2064
02:20:44,875 --> 02:20:47,375
As I as I said, you know prior to the

2065
02:20:47,375 --> 02:20:48,791
interview like if you go

2066
02:20:48,791 --> 02:20:50,625
back into the 50s and 60s

2067
02:20:50,750 --> 02:20:52,500
White sharks were far more common on the

2068
02:20:52,500 --> 02:20:54,625
East Coast at the time and I don't think

2069
02:20:54,625 --> 02:20:56,000
people really I think they knew they were

2070
02:20:56,041 --> 02:20:57,000
Here in the West Coast, but

2071
02:20:57,000 --> 02:20:58,166
they were really common there

2072
02:20:58,166 --> 02:21:00,500
And then when I was kind of when I came

2073
02:21:00,500 --> 02:21:02,625
along later on they weren't didn't seem

2074
02:21:02,625 --> 02:21:04,750
to be as common on the East Coast

2075
02:21:04,750 --> 02:21:07,000
And whereas today they're fairly common.

2076
02:21:07,000 --> 02:21:09,291
So I think think I think a lot of these

2077
02:21:09,291 --> 02:21:11,375
other people looking at the stuff now

2078
02:21:11,375 --> 02:21:14,166
They go back 20 maybe 25 years

2079
02:21:15,625 --> 02:21:17,583
Probably, you know and things started may

2080
02:21:17,583 --> 02:21:19,625
have started changing and so

2081
02:21:19,625 --> 02:21:20,708
I think you have to go back

2082
02:21:20,708 --> 02:21:23,375
You know go back 60 70 years because

2083
02:21:23,375 --> 02:21:25,250
there is information back to the 50s

2084
02:21:25,416 --> 02:21:27,583
And what was going on there and see if

2085
02:21:27,583 --> 02:21:28,791
you see if you can notice any

2086
02:21:29,333 --> 02:21:31,083
Changes or trends and you can also find

2087
02:21:31,083 --> 02:21:32,250
out things like you know

2088
02:21:32,250 --> 02:21:34,500
like I know people have told me there's

2089
02:21:34,500 --> 02:21:36,416
been a shift where you have cooler waters

2090
02:21:36,416 --> 02:21:38,333
now in the Western Cape than

2091
02:21:38,625 --> 02:21:40,458
Before it used to be you know, not that

2092
02:21:40,458 --> 02:21:41,791
it was ever really warm

2093
02:21:41,791 --> 02:21:43,375
But it was like you have cooler waters

2094
02:21:43,375 --> 02:21:45,041
there and I know some other shark species

2095
02:21:45,125 --> 02:21:47,916
Have migrated further East than they were

2096
02:21:47,916 --> 02:21:50,000
in the past. And so I think

2097
02:21:50,000 --> 02:21:50,833
these are the kind of things

2098
02:21:50,833 --> 02:21:52,125
I always talk about that

2099
02:21:53,291 --> 02:21:55,041
Things like these lost sharks these

2100
02:21:55,041 --> 02:21:55,875
little known species

2101
02:21:55,875 --> 02:21:57,375
They're gonna tell you more about what's

2102
02:21:57,375 --> 02:21:59,500
going on than things like white sharks

2103
02:21:59,500 --> 02:22:01,125
because by the time you start noticing at

2104
02:22:01,125 --> 02:22:02,083
the white shark level

2105
02:22:02,083 --> 02:22:03,750
there's probably a whole bunch of stuff

2106
02:22:03,750 --> 02:22:06,041
that's already gone on and

2107
02:22:06,041 --> 02:22:07,666
That's what I always try to emphasize and

2108
02:22:07,666 --> 02:22:10,166
I don't know how I know some people pick

2109
02:22:10,166 --> 02:22:11,458
up on that and other people not sure

2110
02:22:11,500 --> 02:22:13,291
Yeah, I'm just not sure if people really

2111
02:22:13,291 --> 02:22:14,750
have grasped onto that that you need to

2112
02:22:14,750 --> 02:22:16,250
be looking for at these lost sharks

2113
02:22:16,250 --> 02:22:18,125
Because they're gonna be in dick more

2114
02:22:18,125 --> 02:22:19,375
indicative of the health the marine

2115
02:22:19,375 --> 02:22:20,666
environment than the white sharks are

2116
02:22:20,666 --> 02:22:23,875
Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's

2117
02:22:23,875 --> 02:22:27,083
something important to note and you know,

2118
02:22:27,083 --> 02:22:28,083
this this debate goes

2119
02:22:28,083 --> 02:22:29,583
on. I think that the the

2120
02:22:30,166 --> 02:22:32,291
difficulty of all of this is

2121
02:22:33,250 --> 02:22:35,125
The the action that doesn't

2122
02:22:35,125 --> 02:22:37,333
get taken because you know

2123
02:22:37,541 --> 02:22:39,083
Potentially and this is all allegedly

2124
02:22:39,083 --> 02:22:40,541
because I don't know the the full

2125
02:22:40,541 --> 02:22:41,875
situation according to Chris

2126
02:22:42,458 --> 02:22:44,583
Where the government's not taking action

2127
02:22:44,583 --> 02:22:45,375
because they're saying

2128
02:22:45,375 --> 02:22:46,333
it's that it's the orcas

2129
02:22:46,333 --> 02:22:48,708
And so that makes it a difficult aspect

2130
02:22:48,708 --> 02:22:49,500
because you're like,

2131
02:22:49,500 --> 02:22:50,375
well hold on a second

2132
02:22:50,375 --> 02:22:52,666
Like we should be worrying about fishing

2133
02:22:52,666 --> 02:22:54,375
should be at least monitoring it a little

2134
02:22:54,375 --> 02:22:55,333
bit better making sure

2135
02:22:55,333 --> 02:22:56,416
that we know what's available

2136
02:22:56,416 --> 02:22:58,375
What's not the irony is that you know,

2137
02:22:58,375 --> 02:22:59,500
you know this could you

2138
02:22:59,500 --> 02:23:00,458
hear me talk about before?

2139
02:23:00,750 --> 02:23:03,458
But the whole thing about the white shark

2140
02:23:04,291 --> 02:23:07,333
Protection back in 1990 1991 which I was

2141
02:23:07,333 --> 02:23:09,375
involved with it was driven by the

2142
02:23:09,375 --> 02:23:10,458
commercial fishing industry

2143
02:23:11,708 --> 02:23:14,375
That's who drove the and that's and a lot

2144
02:23:14,375 --> 02:23:15,791
of people leaving the people I talked

2145
02:23:15,791 --> 02:23:17,125
they didn't realize that

2146
02:23:17,125 --> 02:23:20,041
That they there was it was it was it was

2147
02:23:20,041 --> 02:23:22,083
a it was the commercial fishing industry

2148
02:23:22,083 --> 02:23:23,750
drove the whole white

2149
02:23:23,750 --> 02:23:25,125
shark protection thing

2150
02:23:25,125 --> 02:23:27,000
and then and so

2151
02:23:27,291 --> 02:23:29,375
I think that's a that's an important

2152
02:23:29,375 --> 02:23:31,125
aspect of this whole story that

2153
02:23:31,541 --> 02:23:33,041
The the fishing community

2154
02:23:33,041 --> 02:23:34,375
was the ones that got behind it

2155
02:23:34,375 --> 02:23:35,583
And I know I've been out of it

2156
02:23:35,583 --> 02:23:37,083
So I'm not as plugged in with them as I

2157
02:23:37,083 --> 02:23:39,416
used to be at the at the time or what's

2158
02:23:39,416 --> 02:23:40,666
going on there and the government's

2159
02:23:40,666 --> 02:23:41,583
obviously changed

2160
02:23:42,291 --> 02:23:43,791
considerably from from

2161
02:23:44,416 --> 02:23:46,250
You know back then I knew all the players

2162
02:23:46,250 --> 02:23:47,666
like on a personal level.

2163
02:23:47,666 --> 02:23:49,333
I knew them pretty well now

2164
02:23:49,333 --> 02:23:50,791
I don't know any of the people there now

2165
02:23:50,791 --> 02:23:51,541
because it's been well

2166
02:23:51,541 --> 02:23:53,916
It's been like whatever 35 years since I

2167
02:23:53,916 --> 02:23:55,916
lived there and so you don't really say I

2168
02:23:55,916 --> 02:23:56,416
don't really have the

2169
02:23:56,416 --> 02:23:57,625
same connection there but

2170
02:23:58,458 --> 02:24:00,125
But I always think it's an important

2171
02:24:00,125 --> 02:24:01,583
aspect that like I said, it was the

2172
02:24:01,583 --> 02:24:02,291
commercial fishing

2173
02:24:02,291 --> 02:24:03,291
industry drove the whole

2174
02:24:04,291 --> 02:24:05,791
Conservation movement for white sharks.

2175
02:24:06,083 --> 02:24:07,791
So what's going on now?

2176
02:24:08,083 --> 02:24:09,458
I mean, it's certainly it's easy to say

2177
02:24:09,458 --> 02:24:10,500
like well, it's too orca's

2178
02:24:10,500 --> 02:24:12,125
are wiping out the population

2179
02:24:12,125 --> 02:24:13,833
There's nothing we can do about it

2180
02:24:14,000 --> 02:24:15,666
Versus actually spending some time and

2181
02:24:15,666 --> 02:24:17,166
energy to figure out what it is

2182
02:24:17,166 --> 02:24:19,291
And I think it all comes down to sort of

2183
02:24:19,291 --> 02:24:20,500
type of leadership and I

2184
02:24:20,500 --> 02:24:21,916
again because I knew the people

2185
02:24:22,000 --> 02:24:23,916
On the government side of stuff at the

2186
02:24:23,916 --> 02:24:26,166
time. They were guys that took action

2187
02:24:26,166 --> 02:24:28,208
They were action type people that took

2188
02:24:28,208 --> 02:24:29,666
that, you know, they talked to they had

2189
02:24:29,666 --> 02:24:30,583
relationships with the

2190
02:24:30,583 --> 02:24:32,916
commercial fishing industry and they

2191
02:24:33,583 --> 02:24:35,500
Took action and did stuff for words. I

2192
02:24:35,500 --> 02:24:37,333
today I can't I don't want to be critical

2193
02:24:37,333 --> 02:24:38,708
because I just I don't know the players

2194
02:24:38,708 --> 02:24:41,208
on that side of it these days, so

2195
02:24:41,791 --> 02:24:43,666
It's it's a I mean, that's it

2196
02:24:43,666 --> 02:24:45,291
I think the thing is to is you got to

2197
02:24:45,291 --> 02:24:46,916
take the emotion out of it, too, right?

2198
02:24:46,916 --> 02:24:48,458
It's not because of any one person

2199
02:24:48,458 --> 02:24:50,458
It's not because they're called if if

2200
02:24:50,458 --> 02:24:52,333
they are looking at the science and they

2201
02:24:52,333 --> 02:24:53,166
see you science saying

2202
02:24:53,166 --> 02:24:54,125
one thing and then they see

2203
02:24:54,125 --> 02:24:56,375
Science saying another that's worse. This

2204
02:24:56,375 --> 02:24:58,083
is where science thrives is in

2205
02:24:58,083 --> 02:24:59,625
the debate is in the critiques

2206
02:24:59,625 --> 02:25:02,166
It's it's it gets better because of it

2207
02:25:02,666 --> 02:25:04,625
you know the I think the

2208
02:25:04,916 --> 02:25:06,375
What I would like to see is those

2209
02:25:06,375 --> 02:25:08,541
scientists coming together and doing a

2210
02:25:08,541 --> 02:25:09,625
study together to be

2211
02:25:09,625 --> 02:25:10,500
like where can it be?

2212
02:25:10,625 --> 02:25:11,583
Sometimes that doesn't happen

2213
02:25:11,583 --> 02:25:13,125
Well, because one's government one's

2214
02:25:13,125 --> 02:25:15,791
academia or vice versa or maybe they're

2215
02:25:15,791 --> 02:25:16,833
from a different part

2216
02:25:16,833 --> 02:25:18,541
And so there's a little there's politics

2217
02:25:18,541 --> 02:25:20,958
that get involved in some cases, right?

2218
02:25:21,291 --> 02:25:21,916
Yeah, like I said,

2219
02:25:21,916 --> 02:25:23,416
there's politics involved

2220
02:25:23,500 --> 02:25:25,208
There's funding aspects of it

2221
02:25:25,333 --> 02:25:28,125
You know the the the orca to orca is

2222
02:25:28,125 --> 02:25:29,541
wiping out the white shark population

2223
02:25:29,791 --> 02:25:32,125
It's a much sexier story than saying than

2224
02:25:32,125 --> 02:25:34,708
saying like well, we might be overfishing

2225
02:25:34,958 --> 02:25:36,833
Some of these lower level

2226
02:25:36,833 --> 02:25:38,041
some of these law sharks

2227
02:25:38,041 --> 02:25:40,125
I say lower level but these law sharks

2228
02:25:40,125 --> 02:25:41,791
that nobody's paying any attention to the

2229
02:25:41,791 --> 02:25:43,875
hound sharks and a lot of the rays

2230
02:25:44,000 --> 02:25:45,875
Which nobody ever thinks about the rays

2231
02:25:45,875 --> 02:25:48,791
usually but these things the these things

2232
02:25:48,791 --> 02:25:50,000
are fed on by white sharks

2233
02:25:50,000 --> 02:25:51,625
People don't realize that they think

2234
02:25:51,625 --> 02:25:53,250
seals sea lions bring out

2235
02:25:53,250 --> 02:25:55,416
But young white sharks at least up until

2236
02:25:55,416 --> 02:25:56,958
they get to be about, you know, three

2237
02:25:56,958 --> 02:25:57,708
three and a half meters

2238
02:25:57,833 --> 02:26:00,375
They mostly eat other sharks and rays

2239
02:26:00,375 --> 02:26:02,166
that's their mate. That's their stable

2240
02:26:02,166 --> 02:26:04,208
And if those things are removed that's

2241
02:26:04,208 --> 02:26:05,833
going to impact the population because

2242
02:26:05,833 --> 02:26:07,375
they're not going to you're not going to

2243
02:26:07,375 --> 02:26:08,625
have as many getting to maturity

2244
02:26:08,708 --> 02:26:10,833
Or they're going to leave the area and go

2245
02:26:10,833 --> 02:26:12,166
somewhere else where there is food

2246
02:26:12,916 --> 02:26:15,583
And so you and so you so you have to

2247
02:26:15,583 --> 02:26:17,000
think about those things and that's good

2248
02:26:17,000 --> 02:26:19,125
That's gonna be a tougher sell than

2249
02:26:19,125 --> 02:26:19,791
saying oh, it's two

2250
02:26:19,791 --> 02:26:22,166
orcas. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely

2251
02:26:22,208 --> 02:26:23,958
But I mean in in science is

2252
02:26:23,958 --> 02:26:24,916
never usually just one thing

2253
02:26:24,958 --> 02:26:26,541
So I think you know people have to look

2254
02:26:26,541 --> 02:26:28,750
outside the box and see what else it

2255
02:26:28,750 --> 02:26:30,750
could be climate change, you know

2256
02:26:31,083 --> 02:26:32,375
fisheries movement

2257
02:26:33,083 --> 02:26:36,666
Yeah, it happened. It could be any if not

2258
02:26:36,666 --> 02:26:39,166
all probably all and it's difficult to

2259
02:26:39,166 --> 02:26:40,250
kind of untangle that

2260
02:26:40,250 --> 02:26:41,333
which one's having the most

2261
02:26:41,333 --> 02:26:43,291
Effect but regardless that's

2262
02:26:43,291 --> 02:26:44,541
what makes science so great

2263
02:26:44,916 --> 02:26:47,250
It's and and challenging at the same time

2264
02:26:47,541 --> 02:26:49,250
And so it's great to be able to have

2265
02:26:49,250 --> 02:26:51,875
Chris on to be able to discuss that and

2266
02:26:51,875 --> 02:26:53,166
I'm sure this was not the end of

2267
02:26:53,166 --> 02:26:55,833
Our coverage of this and it will have

2268
02:26:55,833 --> 02:26:57,375
some other people on like you said

2269
02:26:57,666 --> 02:26:59,458
Allison town or Allison cock as well

2270
02:26:59,666 --> 02:27:02,083
To be able to discuss a little bit about

2271
02:27:02,083 --> 02:27:03,458
that as well as other stuff that they're

2272
02:27:03,458 --> 02:27:04,375
up to and we'll get them on

2273
02:27:04,375 --> 02:27:06,291
Soon enough to be able to have this

2274
02:27:06,291 --> 02:27:09,250
ongoing conversation on orcas versus

2275
02:27:09,250 --> 02:27:10,791
great whites and other things

2276
02:27:10,791 --> 02:27:13,541
So it'll be a lot of fun, but we want to

2277
02:27:13,541 --> 02:27:14,833
thank Chris for joining us

2278
02:27:14,833 --> 02:27:16,083
and spending time with us today

2279
02:27:16,083 --> 02:27:18,041
He's always been so great with that and

2280
02:27:18,041 --> 02:27:19,125
lending his his stories

2281
02:27:19,208 --> 02:27:22,000
You know his his ability to photograph

2282
02:27:22,000 --> 02:27:25,666
some amazing amazing wildlife and well

2283
02:27:25,666 --> 02:27:27,458
just being a great human being so it's

2284
02:27:27,458 --> 02:27:28,500
always great to have him on

2285
02:27:28,583 --> 02:27:30,250
And Dave, thank you so much if people

2286
02:27:30,250 --> 02:27:31,458
want to get in touch

2287
02:27:31,458 --> 02:27:32,625
with you. How would they do?

2288
02:27:32,833 --> 02:27:34,166
It's at lost shark guy on

2289
02:27:34,166 --> 02:27:36,666
Instagram also on YouTube and

2290
02:27:36,833 --> 02:27:39,375
Be sure to check out YouTube YouTube

2291
02:27:39,375 --> 02:27:41,125
channel the series and or I've been

2292
02:27:41,125 --> 02:27:42,500
working on searching for

2293
02:27:42,500 --> 02:27:43,875
lost sharks extinct or alive

2294
02:27:44,125 --> 02:27:46,666
Episode 5 on River sharks is up now

2295
02:27:47,000 --> 02:27:48,791
Please check it out and please subscribe

2296
02:27:49,875 --> 02:27:51,250
And if you want to go to

2297
02:27:51,250 --> 02:27:52,000
those any of those links

2298
02:27:52,000 --> 02:27:53,958
We'll have them in the show notes so you

2299
02:27:53,958 --> 02:27:55,708
can check that out or in the description

2300
02:27:55,708 --> 02:27:56,500
below depending on

2301
02:27:56,500 --> 02:27:57,291
where you're watching this

2302
02:27:57,291 --> 02:27:58,000
And of course if you

2303
02:27:58,000 --> 02:27:58,666
want to get a hold of me

2304
02:27:58,666 --> 02:28:01,541
You can go to at beyond jaws pod or you

2305
02:28:01,541 --> 02:28:03,125
can go look at our YouTube channel at

2306
02:28:03,125 --> 02:28:04,875
beyond jaws podcast on YouTube

2307
02:28:04,916 --> 02:28:06,791
Thank you so much for joining us on

2308
02:28:06,791 --> 02:28:08,500
today's episode of the Beyond Jaws

2309
02:28:08,500 --> 02:28:09,500
podcast. Have a great day

2310
02:28:09,500 --> 02:28:10,083
We'll talk to you next

2311
02:28:10,083 --> 02:28:11,458
time and happy conservation