He Couldn’t Become a Doctor… So He Built a Shark Conservation Movement

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Welcome back to another great episode of

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the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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Today we have Raffid Sidky who is going

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to be talking about

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his organization that is

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surrounding the pelagic

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fishery for Thresher Sharks.

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And we're going to talk

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about how he got started.

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He's got a very

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interesting start to marine biology.

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He literally fell into the program in his

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local university

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because he couldn't get to

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be a doctor.

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And so we're going to talk about

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adaptation, learning a

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new, a completely new subject

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in the, in the relevance, doing some

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internship and that

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motivated him to do more work.

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Now he's got his own organization,

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employees of 25 staff,

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all local to Indonesia.

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Now he's doing his

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PhD at Duke university.

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So we're going to talk lots about Raffid

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in his work and I can't wait to start.

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So let's start the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome back to another

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exciting episode of

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the Beyond Jaws podcast.

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I'm your co-host Andrew Lewin here with

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my co-host Dr. David Ebert. Dave,

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you ready to talk to Raffid about quite

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an interesting path into shark science.

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Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I, you

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know, I've known him by name,

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but I've never really talked with him

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before. And, and

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definitely this interview was,

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was pretty fascinating. He definitely had

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a lot of times, but he

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really had a completely

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unusual path to getting to where he is

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now doing a PhD at Duke university.

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And especially coming from a family, it

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was kind of like his

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parents are going like, why,

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why aren't you doing a medical field? You

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know, so, so you really,

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everybody should really enjoy,

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you'll enjoy this episode today with

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Raffik. He was, it was an

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incredible thing. And he's,

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by the way, he's also one of the keynote

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speakers at this

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year's sharks international.

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It's going to be in a Colombo Sri Lanka

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from May 4th to 8th. And we've been

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having on several of

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the people who have not been on the

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podcast before they have,

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there's 10 keynote speakers,

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six of them have been on the podcast

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before, but Raffik was one of them,

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Marda, Gophram and Zoya

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were not, have not been on the podcast.

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So we thought, Hey, let's

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have them on the podcast.

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Absolutely. To share their story and get

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to know them a little

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better. So I really hope you enjoy

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this, this interview here about Raffik's

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journey. Yeah. And I think it's, it's,

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it's really interesting before we start

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the interview. I

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think it's interesting to,

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you know, a lot of times when people, you

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know, I'm a young age,

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want to be a marine biologist,

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right? And it's hard to get into a career

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or even education as a

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marine biologist. So oftentimes

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people divert from that original path.

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It's never, we talk about the

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straight linear path doesn't

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really exist. Doesn't exist. You know,

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it's almost like a made up

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kind of thing. Some, for some

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people does, but not many. And we've

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proven that here with, with a lot of the

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interviews that we've

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done with a problem, every interview that

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we've done with this

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podcast. But you know, it's, it's

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never really a, I'm going to be a doctor.

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Now I'm going to become a marine

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biologist as an alternative

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livelihood or an alternative science. So

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I think it's, it's an

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interesting way of, of approaching

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life and the way that he adapted and is

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adapting and continues to adapt really

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makes it interesting

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to, to have this interview. So here's the

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interview with Raffid Sidky.

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Enjoy. And we will talk to you

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after. Hey, Raffid, welcome to the Beyond

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Jaws podcast. Are you

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ready to talk about Thresher

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Sharks? Yes, I'm excited. All right. All

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right. Let's do this.

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Great. Well, welcome to another

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episode of the Beyond Jaws podcast. We

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have another special guest

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today. We have Raffid Shaqui

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and hopefully I pronounced that right.

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He'll correct me in a moment if I didn't.

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Raffid is a, is a PhD

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student at Duke University. And he's one

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of the keynote speakers at this year's

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Sharks International

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Conference being held in May of 2026. And

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as you know, we were having a

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series of, of guests on that,

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that are given the keynotes this year.

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And Raffid is one of those species. He's

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one of those, one of

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those species. One of those guests are

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having on this thing. He's a different,

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we'll talk about his

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species in a minute. Oh, geez. Okay.

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Anyway, we're all good. He knows. And

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we're, in addition to

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working towards his PhD, he's a

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co-founder and director of Thresher Shark

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Indonesia. And he's an

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ocean expert. He's on the ocean expert

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committee for the Department of the

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Environment, Food and

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Rural Affairs in the United Kingdom. And

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as a whole host of other

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numerous positions, it would

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probably take me 15 minutes to go through

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every one of them. So

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hopefully we'll touch in a few of

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a few of them during our, during our

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interview here. He also serves as a field

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conservation officer,

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or he did for the Manta Trust Indonesia,

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Guy Stevens and our friends there who've

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been on the podcast.

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He's also a fishery specialist for the

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United Nations Development Program.

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Raffid has received numerous fellowships

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and scholarships. I mean,

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it's an impressive record

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and hopefully we'll touch on some of

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those today. It's amazing how much he's

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done in his young career so far.

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And he's received again, numerous awards

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and honors. And he's been very

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successful in obtaining grants

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and funding, which is really the kind of

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the key everybody tries to

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do. But he's been amazing.

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Maybe he can give a little secret or

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spread a little pixie dust in our

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direction to maybe help

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us raise some funds too.

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He's been very productive in the last few

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years. He's got at least 10

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publications that I could find.

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He did his bachelor's of science degree

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in marine science at the University of

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Genderel, Sodor Mir in Indonesia.

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Hopefully I'm gonna tell

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you how I got close to it.

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He did an MSC in coastal science and

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policy at the University

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of California, Santa Cruz

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with Don Crowell. He's like the second

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one now that worked on

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Crowell was one of his advisors.

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And I've mentioned in our other interview

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with Marta Palacios,

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Don Crowell and I were

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cohabitated Moss Landing Marine

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Laboratories back in the early 80s. We

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did our master's degree together.

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We're in different labs at the time,

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though. And currently Raffid is doing his

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PhD in marine science and conservation at

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Duke University. And he's still in

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addition to all of that.

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He was a co-founder and director of

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Thresher Sharks Indonesia, which I'm

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really keen to find out more about that.

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So with all that,

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Raffid, welcome to the show.

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Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for the kind

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words. And yeah, I know that my undergrad

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institution is a

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little hard to pronounce.

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It's like local name. Yeah, there's a lot

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of like local pronunciations in there.

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Well, yeah, I did. I did the best I

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could. Why don't you tell it?

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You did well. Oh,

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good. Well, thanks. Thanks.

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Better not use you do. That's good.

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That's good to hear. So

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well, we'll start off like we always ask

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our guests, like how did you get

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interested in marine

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science and sharks in particular?

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Yeah, that's the question that I always

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get whenever people ask me like why I

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decided to even pursue a

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PhD now in marine science.

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Funny story is actually an accident

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for me to get into marine science. The

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best, the best time.

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Yeah, I was like, I got I got like a like

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fairly good grades in high school. You

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know, I received some,

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some good accomplishment and then my

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family is coming from this family of, you

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know, adopters and nurses.

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And in typical kind of, you know, middle,

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middle income community in

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Indonesia is that like, oh,

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if you want to be successful, then you

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have to become a doctor or like an

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engineer, you know, like a

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very typical kind of Asian

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definition of success. And then my mom

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was like, oh, with this grade, you should

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apply for medical school.

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And then my teachers at high school as

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well, like they said, like, oh, you

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should apply to medical school.

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I did follow, you know, their

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suggestions. I applied to six, seven

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different medical schools in Indonesia.

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It's one of the hardest institutions to

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get into and it's also very expensive.

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I applied. I followed my, you know, the

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suggestions, my mom's ambitions. I

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eventually did not get into

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any of the medical programs.

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Yeah, it was like a really terrible

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experience. And I feel like, you know, I

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failed like, you know, I, all of my

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grades are being wasted.

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And the only program that was open,

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there's only this one

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university that you mentioned, Dave,

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it's in its its university program with

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marine science undergrad programs.

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They are currently accepting and nobody's

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actually applying. So it's kind of like

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almost an automatic entry. And then, you

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know, because my high school has kind of

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a collaboration with this

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school, with this university.

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They gave me like a special, you know,

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admission because of because of my grad

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and stuff like that. So there you go. I

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got again into marine science.

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In the first two years, I really confused

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01:08:22,625 --> 01:08:24,416
and I don't really understand like, why

274
01:08:24,416 --> 01:08:25,500
am I studying an algae?

275
01:08:26,583 --> 01:08:29,375
And like a sea stars like what is it for?

276
01:08:29,666 --> 01:08:31,333
You know, like I don't really understand

277
01:08:31,333 --> 01:08:33,541
about like, why are we studying this?

278
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:37,333
Because it's very ironic, like during

279
01:08:37,333 --> 01:08:40,458
during, you know, in elementary school,

280
01:08:40,708 --> 01:08:41,666
middle school and high school.

281
01:08:42,666 --> 01:08:46,000
We know that it's a big ocean, you know,

282
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:48,375
island countries, but we never really

283
01:08:48,375 --> 01:08:51,375
told that the significance of the marine

284
01:08:51,375 --> 01:08:53,750
resources back then. So it's it doesn't

285
01:08:53,750 --> 01:08:55,416
occur to me that marine science becomes

286
01:08:55,416 --> 01:08:56,625
kind of like an

287
01:08:56,625 --> 01:08:58,750
important kind of subject.

288
01:08:59,250 --> 01:09:00,750
So in the first few years, it was really

289
01:09:00,750 --> 01:09:01,958
kind of like a terrible learning

290
01:09:01,958 --> 01:09:03,541
experience because I didn't really

291
01:09:03,541 --> 01:09:05,291
realize that all of this

292
01:09:05,291 --> 01:09:05,916
important and significance.

293
01:09:05,958 --> 01:09:09,208
But in third year, I eventually started

294
01:09:09,208 --> 01:09:11,250
to love it because I

295
01:09:11,250 --> 01:09:12,000
started my internship.

296
01:09:12,708 --> 01:09:15,125
I started to learn about the whales and

297
01:09:15,125 --> 01:09:17,625
all of this charismatic megafauna. I

298
01:09:17,625 --> 01:09:18,166
started my first

299
01:09:18,166 --> 01:09:20,708
internship with WWF in 2014.

300
01:09:22,291 --> 01:09:23,666
That was my first experience to be

301
01:09:23,666 --> 01:09:26,166
exposed in the shark science.

302
01:09:26,833 --> 01:09:28,541
Did the university help you with that

303
01:09:28,541 --> 01:09:29,875
internship or was that

304
01:09:29,875 --> 01:09:30,958
something you saw after like outside?

305
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,916
It was Yeah, that was a good question. It

306
01:09:34,916 --> 01:09:36,791
was something that I seek outside because

307
01:09:36,791 --> 01:09:39,208
the university at a time doesn't have

308
01:09:39,208 --> 01:09:42,416
kind of like conservation focus. So it's

309
01:09:42,416 --> 01:09:47,000
mostly on biotechnology and and, you

310
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:49,083
know, like oceanography. So it's physical

311
01:09:49,083 --> 01:09:49,666
oceanographic

312
01:09:49,666 --> 01:09:51,208
climatology and things like that.

313
01:09:51,208 --> 01:09:53,416
So conservation was kind of like non

314
01:09:53,416 --> 01:09:55,916
traditional route back then. Right. So I

315
01:09:55,916 --> 01:09:58,958
had to like really find opportunity for myself. And thanks for that.

316
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:02,291
And thankfully, I think at a time like,

317
01:10:03,208 --> 01:10:05,333
you know, I've got some connections and

318
01:10:05,333 --> 01:10:09,125
really introduced me to this, you know,

319
01:10:09,125 --> 01:10:12,416
new realm of shark science with WWF. It's

320
01:10:12,416 --> 01:10:14,291
just kind of take off from that.

321
01:10:14,625 --> 01:10:14,833
Was it?

322
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:17,125
We're stories. Yeah, no, that's fine. I

323
01:10:17,125 --> 01:10:19,750
mean, this is what I like this kind of

324
01:10:19,750 --> 01:10:20,958
stuff because, you know, a lot, there's a

325
01:10:20,958 --> 01:10:22,250
lot of internships out there. But

326
01:10:22,250 --> 01:10:24,291
sometimes they're very difficult to find.

327
01:10:24,291 --> 01:10:24,958
Sometimes you don't hear back.

328
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:28,666
Was it a was it something you just apply,

329
01:10:28,666 --> 01:10:30,416
like you found it, you applied for it,

330
01:10:30,416 --> 01:10:32,083
and then you got it right away? Or is it

331
01:10:32,083 --> 01:10:34,375
something that you had to do extra for or

332
01:10:34,375 --> 01:10:36,000
take a long time to learn about it or

333
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:36,750
something like that?

334
01:10:37,541 --> 01:10:39,708
Yeah, I think the the good thing is that

335
01:10:39,708 --> 01:10:43,500
like NGO in Indonesia back then, like was

336
01:10:43,500 --> 01:10:47,250
very open for students. So, you know, if

337
01:10:47,250 --> 01:10:48,666
you're still enrolling as an undergrad

338
01:10:48,666 --> 01:10:51,750
student, you will you will have the

339
01:10:51,750 --> 01:10:53,958
opportunity to get into that experience.

340
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,708
But of course, that the process itself is

341
01:10:56,708 --> 01:11:00,083
very competitive. So I think at the time,

342
01:11:00,083 --> 01:11:02,000
like I was actually lucky somebody

343
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:03,625
dropped off the position

344
01:11:03,625 --> 01:11:05,333
after they got accepted.

345
01:11:05,333 --> 01:11:07,083
And then eventually, like, I got called,

346
01:11:07,375 --> 01:11:09,375
like, I remember it was like during the

347
01:11:09,375 --> 01:11:11,416
weekend, like, Hi, this is Rafi, like,

348
01:11:11,416 --> 01:11:14,000
you know, somebody that supposed to start

349
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:15,000
the internship next

350
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:16,166
week actually dropped out.

351
01:11:16,166 --> 01:11:19,000
And we have you as a backup. Would you

352
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:20,583
like to join us for the

353
01:11:20,583 --> 01:11:22,958
internship? So I said yes.

354
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:26,166
So I think, yeah, it was yeah, sometimes

355
01:11:26,166 --> 01:11:27,958
like I didn't hear back. But yeah, it

356
01:11:27,958 --> 01:11:29,875
meant to be, I guess. Yeah.

357
01:11:31,708 --> 01:11:33,333
Well, well, that's definitely you

358
01:11:33,333 --> 01:11:35,708
definitely came to the field like I'd say

359
01:11:35,708 --> 01:11:38,000
later than most people, Andrew, that

360
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:39,000
we've had on the podcast.

361
01:11:39,500 --> 01:11:41,708
Most, most of them are like by high

362
01:11:41,708 --> 01:11:43,083
school, at least they sort of kind of

363
01:11:43,083 --> 01:11:43,958
know what they're they want

364
01:11:43,958 --> 01:11:44,833
to go in the marine sciences.

365
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:46,791
So it was it was almost like because you

366
01:11:46,791 --> 01:11:48,875
got rejected from the medical profession

367
01:11:48,875 --> 01:11:51,500
that, you know, the the marine sciences

368
01:11:51,500 --> 01:11:52,458
kind of scored a coup.

369
01:11:52,833 --> 01:11:53,625
They got you on board.

370
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:56,875
So yeah, yeah, it was it was it was

371
01:11:56,875 --> 01:11:58,708
actually really funny because like when I

372
01:11:58,708 --> 01:12:02,541
got into like, my mom gave up to me, it

373
01:12:02,541 --> 01:12:04,375
was like, whatever, like whatever program

374
01:12:04,375 --> 01:12:05,958
that is open for you just apply.

375
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:07,791
And then marine science is the only

376
01:12:07,791 --> 01:12:10,000
program. And then the whole my entire

377
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:11,500
family was like laughing at me. It was

378
01:12:11,500 --> 01:12:13,041
like, what are you going to do in marine

379
01:12:13,041 --> 01:12:14,125
science? Like, I'm going to be a

380
01:12:14,125 --> 01:12:15,916
fisherman. And my mom has this like

381
01:12:15,916 --> 01:12:18,333
thoughts about like, oh, no, you're gonna

382
01:12:18,333 --> 01:12:20,083
be, you know, gone to the

383
01:12:20,083 --> 01:12:21,666
sea for like a few months.

384
01:12:21,666 --> 01:12:23,708
And then, you know, fishing and then

385
01:12:23,708 --> 01:12:25,625
getting lost at sea and something all of

386
01:12:25,625 --> 01:12:26,291
this kind of like, you

387
01:12:26,291 --> 01:12:26,958
know, terrifying stuff.

388
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:31,500
That's a mom does. So I think that's kind

389
01:12:31,500 --> 01:12:34,500
of like reinforcing the idea of like, you

390
01:12:34,500 --> 01:12:35,958
know, I don't even understand what am I

391
01:12:35,958 --> 01:12:38,708
doing in this program? Yeah, until the

392
01:12:38,708 --> 01:12:39,500
later year that I

393
01:12:39,500 --> 01:12:40,708
started to realize myself.

394
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:42,750
What can I ask? What part of Indonesia

395
01:12:42,750 --> 01:12:44,625
you're from, Rafi? What part?

396
01:12:45,083 --> 01:12:46,666
From Jakarta originally. Oh, from

397
01:12:46,666 --> 01:12:49,000
Jakarta. Okay. Really far away from the

398
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:50,666
ocean. So I didn't grow up with the

399
01:12:50,666 --> 01:12:52,791
ocean. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Even

400
01:12:52,791 --> 01:12:54,291
though you're in Indonesia is basically a

401
01:12:54,291 --> 01:12:55,291
bunch of a lot of islands.

402
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:59,166
Yeah. That's what I have to I have to ask

403
01:12:59,166 --> 01:13:01,791
to like, you know, you you and I don't

404
01:13:01,791 --> 01:13:02,916
want to dwell on this because I don't

405
01:13:02,916 --> 01:13:04,833
want you to feel bad by any means because

406
01:13:04,833 --> 01:13:06,083
you've obviously pretty

407
01:13:06,083 --> 01:13:07,333
successful getting a PhD.

408
01:13:08,791 --> 01:13:10,916
But it's a tough thing to do when you

409
01:13:10,916 --> 01:13:13,416
when you apply to like a medical program,

410
01:13:13,416 --> 01:13:14,750
something that you've grown up thinking,

411
01:13:14,750 --> 01:13:16,041
hey, you know what, I'm going to get into

412
01:13:16,041 --> 01:13:17,458
this. This is my path.

413
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:19,833
You know, your family obviously is not

414
01:13:19,833 --> 01:13:21,333
necessarily pressuring you to do it, but

415
01:13:21,333 --> 01:13:22,833
you know, is excited for you to do it and

416
01:13:22,833 --> 01:13:25,375
pushing you towards that way. And then

417
01:13:25,375 --> 01:13:27,166
you knock it in. That's a pretty hard

418
01:13:27,166 --> 01:13:29,291
thing to take. And then you're going into

419
01:13:29,291 --> 01:13:31,708
this program that for you.

420
01:13:32,041 --> 01:13:33,500
And it's kind of funny because here for a

421
01:13:33,500 --> 01:13:34,875
lot of people, it's like you cross your

422
01:13:34,875 --> 01:13:36,541
fingers to get into these programs. But

423
01:13:36,541 --> 01:13:38,916
for you, it was open for you. But you're

424
01:13:38,916 --> 01:13:41,208
kind of like, oh, this is like, this is

425
01:13:41,208 --> 01:13:42,916
not what I wanted. I'm just going to do

426
01:13:42,916 --> 01:13:44,791
it because it'll get it'll get me where I

427
01:13:44,791 --> 01:13:46,333
want to go in terms of a degree.

428
01:13:47,416 --> 01:13:49,875
Was that a difficult thing for you to

429
01:13:49,875 --> 01:13:52,458
come around and how long did it take

430
01:13:52,458 --> 01:13:54,166
before you really got

431
01:13:54,166 --> 01:13:55,875
excited about marine science?

432
01:13:58,166 --> 01:14:00,958
Yeah, I mean, there is. Yeah, I could

433
01:14:00,958 --> 01:14:02,875
remember, like, it was a really difficult

434
01:14:02,875 --> 01:14:04,416
year in the first two years, like, you

435
01:14:04,416 --> 01:14:05,916
know, it's and the university was really

436
01:14:05,916 --> 01:14:07,166
far away from my home. It's

437
01:14:07,166 --> 01:14:08,958
like 12 hours away driving.

438
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:11,750
So you're staying over your. Yeah, I'm

439
01:14:11,750 --> 01:14:13,500
staying over outside. So that was

440
01:14:13,500 --> 01:14:15,250
actually my first experience being away

441
01:14:15,250 --> 01:14:18,500
from my family, knowing not knowing

442
01:14:18,500 --> 01:14:20,708
anybody. So I had to start over by

443
01:14:20,708 --> 01:14:22,666
myself, living by myself, you know,

444
01:14:22,666 --> 01:14:23,708
making friends, making new

445
01:14:23,708 --> 01:14:23,958
friends, stuff like that.

446
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:28,125
So it was a very tough, like, transition

447
01:14:28,125 --> 01:14:31,083
process into, you know, young adults as

448
01:14:31,083 --> 01:14:35,583
well. And knowing that I don't know what

449
01:14:35,583 --> 01:14:38,458
this knowledge going to be useful for me,

450
01:14:38,458 --> 01:14:39,458
you know, and things like that.

451
01:14:40,833 --> 01:14:45,250
But I think that I even like in my second

452
01:14:45,250 --> 01:14:47,916
year, like I, I decided to apply for a

453
01:14:47,916 --> 01:14:49,583
new university program, I applied for

454
01:14:49,583 --> 01:14:50,708
architecture program

455
01:14:50,708 --> 01:14:51,958
at a time. Interesting.

456
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:55,041
You're still trying to escape. I'm still

457
01:14:55,041 --> 01:14:57,833
trying to escape. It was like, and I

458
01:14:57,833 --> 01:15:00,416
actually actually got into neighboring

459
01:15:00,416 --> 01:15:03,041
universities, like, a way better

460
01:15:03,041 --> 01:15:05,541
university program. And I told my mom was

461
01:15:05,541 --> 01:15:06,958
like, Mom, look, I got

462
01:15:06,958 --> 01:15:07,958
admitted into this architect program.

463
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:11,041
And then she looked at that me admission

464
01:15:11,041 --> 01:15:15,916
cause is like, if you can pay, go ahead.

465
01:15:16,375 --> 01:15:22,125
And I was like, I can't do this. And then

466
01:15:22,125 --> 01:15:24,375
I think that at the time, like, okay, I'm

467
01:15:24,375 --> 01:15:25,791
just gonna swallow and then

468
01:15:25,791 --> 01:15:26,958
just gonna accept my baby.

469
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:30,833
Um, and again, like, you laugh, you it's

470
01:15:30,833 --> 01:15:31,958
kind of funny, because we laugh about it

471
01:15:31,958 --> 01:15:33,416
now, because we know where you where you

472
01:15:33,416 --> 01:15:35,750
end up. Yeah. Again, that's another thing

473
01:15:35,750 --> 01:15:37,208
where you're like, you're going into a

474
01:15:37,208 --> 01:15:38,791
very different like thinking of going

475
01:15:38,791 --> 01:15:39,958
into a very different program.

476
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:43,916
How was it? Were you just like very

477
01:15:43,916 --> 01:15:46,291
confused at everything? Because I would

478
01:15:46,291 --> 01:15:47,791
have been like, sitting there like, where

479
01:15:47,791 --> 01:15:51,000
am I gonna go with my life? Yeah. Like,

480
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:52,333
did you talk to any of your professors

481
01:15:52,333 --> 01:15:54,250
about it in terms of like, what you can

482
01:15:54,250 --> 01:15:55,166
do? Like, how did that

483
01:15:55,166 --> 01:15:55,958
all kind of play out?

484
01:15:56,041 --> 01:16:01,375
Yeah, I mean, yeah, you probably went

485
01:16:01,375 --> 01:16:02,791
through this as well. But like, you know,

486
01:16:02,791 --> 01:16:05,083
being being in this process of

487
01:16:05,083 --> 01:16:06,666
transition, a lot of conditions about

488
01:16:06,666 --> 01:16:09,000
myself, you know, kind of like, you know,

489
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:12,083
my self confidence, it was really, I

490
01:16:12,083 --> 01:16:15,458
think, yeah, it was a difficult process.

491
01:16:15,750 --> 01:16:17,333
But I think throughout this, this two

492
01:16:17,333 --> 01:16:19,000
years, the things that I just realized is

493
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:23,583
like, I got a lot of things that I

494
01:16:23,583 --> 01:16:24,958
overlooked, I made new friends, that I was like, I'm gonna go with my own.

495
01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:26,291
And I got new friends, that are really

496
01:16:26,291 --> 01:16:28,750
good. And because I'm trying so hard to

497
01:16:28,750 --> 01:16:31,583
get away from the program, I actually

498
01:16:31,583 --> 01:16:34,875
joined a couple of, you know, university

499
01:16:34,875 --> 01:16:37,708
clubs, debating clubs at a time, the

500
01:16:37,708 --> 01:16:38,666
English debating clubs.

501
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:43,541
And I became active in many, you know,

502
01:16:43,541 --> 01:16:45,250
student activities that makes me kind of

503
01:16:45,250 --> 01:16:47,666
exposed to different kind of experience.

504
01:16:48,541 --> 01:16:50,708
I get some new friends from outside of my

505
01:16:50,708 --> 01:16:52,833
program that was very enriching. And a

506
01:16:52,833 --> 01:16:56,666
lot of these people are, you know, kind

507
01:16:56,666 --> 01:16:58,458
of like a support system that that really

508
01:16:58,458 --> 01:16:59,958
helps me to thrive in the at the

509
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:03,041
university. And I also really grateful

510
01:17:03,041 --> 01:17:06,291
that I had a, an undergrad advisor who

511
01:17:06,291 --> 01:17:09,958
who really trusted in my capacity, like

512
01:17:09,958 --> 01:17:12,541
he was still in touch. And he even like,

513
01:17:12,541 --> 01:17:15,208
you know, provide recommendations for my

514
01:17:15,208 --> 01:17:16,666
great graduate

515
01:17:16,666 --> 01:17:17,958
application and things like that.

516
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:21,125
It was because like he was very, very,

517
01:17:21,125 --> 01:17:25,625
you know, have a faith in the success of

518
01:17:25,625 --> 01:17:27,708
my undergraduate program, I didn't have a

519
01:17:27,708 --> 01:17:30,250
bad grades, I still get good grades,

520
01:17:30,750 --> 01:17:33,125
because, you know, I'm just gonna try to

521
01:17:33,125 --> 01:17:36,416
make sure that you know, I still can get

522
01:17:36,416 --> 01:17:38,041
out with, with

523
01:17:38,041 --> 01:17:38,958
something I can be proud of.

524
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:39,708
Of course.

525
01:17:40,083 --> 01:17:41,041
You know, okay. You know what the, you

526
01:17:41,041 --> 01:17:42,333
know what this sound, this is, this is,

527
01:17:42,333 --> 01:17:43,666
this is gonna, this is gonna be a way

528
01:17:43,666 --> 01:17:45,833
throwback movie for, for both of you

529
01:17:45,833 --> 01:17:47,833
guys. And it was probably seen this

530
01:17:47,833 --> 01:17:50,083
maybe, but there's a movie came out in 72

531
01:17:50,083 --> 01:17:52,750
called the Godfather with, with Marlon

532
01:17:52,750 --> 01:17:55,958
Brando and a young Al Pacino.

533
01:17:56,791 --> 01:17:57,000
Yeah.

534
01:17:57,291 --> 01:18:00,250
And, and Al Pacino plays like, have you

535
01:18:00,250 --> 01:18:02,708
seen that one? Oh, you have to, oh, you

536
01:18:02,708 --> 01:18:03,958
have, it's a classic.

537
01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:05,291
Three of them, what's the first two?

538
01:18:05,541 --> 01:18:06,958
The third, yeah, third ones. Yeah, the

539
01:18:06,958 --> 01:18:09,250
first two are just great. But the first

540
01:18:09,250 --> 01:18:11,500
one, there's a point in there where he,

541
01:18:11,791 --> 01:18:14,666
the Al Pacino character, he's, he's the

542
01:18:14,666 --> 01:18:16,791
son of the Godfather and he's, he has a

543
01:18:16,791 --> 01:18:18,708
line in there where he says, he goes,

544
01:18:18,916 --> 01:18:19,875
every time I want to get

545
01:18:19,875 --> 01:18:21,583
out, I get sucked back in.

546
01:18:21,791 --> 01:18:22,000
Yeah.

547
01:18:22,333 --> 01:18:24,250
And he goes, he kept wanting to get away

548
01:18:24,250 --> 01:18:25,666
from the family and they kept sucking

549
01:18:25,666 --> 01:18:27,666
them back in till finally, at the end of

550
01:18:27,666 --> 01:18:29,041
the movie, he becomes the Godfather.

551
01:18:29,416 --> 01:18:29,666
Yeah.

552
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:32,250
So he takes over for his father. What you

553
01:18:32,250 --> 01:18:33,708
just described sounds to me like

554
01:18:33,708 --> 01:18:36,500
Godfather. Every time you tried to, every

555
01:18:36,500 --> 01:18:37,833
time you tried to get out of the Marine

556
01:18:37,833 --> 01:18:39,875
sciences, we just sucked you back in.

557
01:18:39,875 --> 01:18:41,208
It's a little different and little, and

558
01:18:41,208 --> 01:18:42,625
yours is a little safer, but.

559
01:18:42,625 --> 01:18:43,708
Yeah, they were.

560
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:46,458
It's not a mafia, but you're different.

561
01:18:46,916 --> 01:18:47,916
Well, some people call us

562
01:18:47,916 --> 01:18:49,208
the shark mafia, but yeah.

563
01:18:49,500 --> 01:18:50,583
Yeah, that's true. That's true.

564
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:54,375
So that's literally how this pop into my

565
01:18:54,375 --> 01:18:56,416
head. Like, oh my God. And all you young

566
01:18:56,416 --> 01:18:57,583
people out there, if you haven't seen the

567
01:18:57,583 --> 01:18:59,208
movie, the Godfather, go see it. The

568
01:18:59,208 --> 01:19:00,666
first two are just for

569
01:19:00,666 --> 01:19:02,458
not classic, classic movies.

570
01:19:03,000 --> 01:19:05,208
So anyway, so yeah, so, so you, so you

571
01:19:05,208 --> 01:19:07,458
joined the mafia now the Marine science

572
01:19:07,458 --> 01:19:10,041
mafia crew. And so, cause we keep sucking

573
01:19:10,041 --> 01:19:12,000
you back in at what point did you just,

574
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:13,666
did you kind of veer into, you got

575
01:19:13,666 --> 01:19:15,041
interest in the megafauna, like the

576
01:19:15,041 --> 01:19:16,666
Marine mammals and the lard, or the

577
01:19:16,666 --> 01:19:17,916
fishes, I assume as well.

578
01:19:18,000 --> 01:19:19,416
When did you kind of

579
01:19:19,416 --> 01:19:21,583
sway into like sharks?

580
01:19:23,833 --> 01:19:26,916
Yeah, this is actually where things got

581
01:19:26,916 --> 01:19:29,750
really interested because like throughout

582
01:19:29,750 --> 01:19:31,625
the process, like after the second year,

583
01:19:31,625 --> 01:19:34,500
you know, you got to expose some more

584
01:19:34,500 --> 01:19:35,958
kind of like specialized coursework.

585
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:38,500
So I learned a lot of things like

586
01:19:38,500 --> 01:19:40,625
conservation of marine resources,

587
01:19:41,041 --> 01:19:43,041
conservation of marine biology,

588
01:19:43,041 --> 01:19:45,416
conservation of marine biodiversity,

589
01:19:46,208 --> 01:19:46,916
marine biotechnology.

590
01:19:47,166 --> 01:19:49,625
So I learned a lot of all of the school

591
01:19:49,625 --> 01:19:51,458
stuff. And then I actually found a

592
01:19:51,458 --> 01:19:54,583
pathway where I feel like, OK, maybe I

593
01:19:54,583 --> 01:19:56,916
can still pursue medical science through

594
01:19:56,916 --> 01:19:59,500
biopharmacology. Yeah, I think you're

595
01:19:59,500 --> 01:19:59,958
still trying to get out.

596
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:02,875
Yeah, I'm still trying to like be, you

597
01:20:02,875 --> 01:20:04,875
know, be relevant in the medical science

598
01:20:04,875 --> 01:20:06,541
world because I feel it's really cool to

599
01:20:06,541 --> 01:20:08,458
learn about like sponges and algae

600
01:20:08,458 --> 01:20:10,583
actually useful for, you know, production

601
01:20:10,583 --> 01:20:12,000
of antibacteria and anti

602
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:12,958
viruses and things like that.

603
01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:16,750
So I actually started to to be very

604
01:20:16,750 --> 01:20:19,333
passionate on that. In addition to

605
01:20:19,333 --> 01:20:22,416
learning about, you know, sharks after my

606
01:20:22,416 --> 01:20:25,875
internship with WWF and I got introduced

607
01:20:25,875 --> 01:20:29,791
by the DNA research of sharks at the time

608
01:20:29,791 --> 01:20:31,791
I joined another internship in the next

609
01:20:31,791 --> 01:20:33,958
year with Indonesian Biodiversity Center.

610
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:39,458
The name now, Biomesia, that focus on the

611
01:20:39,458 --> 01:20:42,000
forensic research for shark trade at a

612
01:20:42,000 --> 01:20:43,958
time because shark issues becomes very,

613
01:20:43,958 --> 01:20:45,250
very prevalent in Indonesia.

614
01:20:46,208 --> 01:20:48,083
There's a lot of research and funding

615
01:20:48,083 --> 01:20:50,791
coming in. It was my first experience

616
01:20:50,791 --> 01:20:53,833
doing DNA sequencing and all of this cool

617
01:20:53,833 --> 01:20:55,458
technology that I feel like, oh, wow,

618
01:20:56,000 --> 01:20:56,958
like this is the medical

619
01:20:56,958 --> 01:20:58,958
science in a different world.

620
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:01,708
So I feel like, you know, I got very

621
01:21:01,708 --> 01:21:06,250
passionate in there and I decided to do

622
01:21:06,250 --> 01:21:09,750
my undergrad thesis on still on

623
01:21:09,750 --> 01:21:11,583
biotechnology and stuff like that.

624
01:21:12,291 --> 01:21:15,000
So I did research on sea sponges as

625
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:19,958
antimalaria. I got I live my life is

626
01:21:19,958 --> 01:21:22,541
literally in the lab. I go in the

627
01:21:22,541 --> 01:21:26,541
morning, isolate myself in this room with

628
01:21:26,541 --> 01:21:28,958
a pipette and like a glue.

629
01:21:29,000 --> 01:21:32,833
And like the until night, like I just

630
01:21:32,833 --> 01:21:36,083
stay there dealing with mosquitoes and

631
01:21:36,083 --> 01:21:40,166
extract his punches. And there was like

632
01:21:40,166 --> 01:21:41,208
the realizations. I

633
01:21:41,208 --> 01:21:41,958
don't want to do this.

634
01:21:42,000 --> 01:21:44,458
Like I hate the lab work. I don't want to

635
01:21:44,458 --> 01:21:47,583
do this. And I had a different kind of

636
01:21:47,583 --> 01:21:50,458
undergrad thesis advisor at a time that

637
01:21:50,458 --> 01:21:51,625
we didn't really had a good

638
01:21:51,625 --> 01:21:54,041
experience working together.

639
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:57,250
So I feel like I'm just going to run away

640
01:21:57,250 --> 01:21:59,125
again. And there's this, unfortunately,

641
01:21:59,333 --> 01:22:02,208
working with Mantharé conservation with

642
01:22:02,208 --> 01:22:03,958
La Macheara project in La Macheara.

643
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:08,791
So people like Sean Henrich and Mantharé

644
01:22:08,791 --> 01:22:12,541
Truss, Sarah Lewis, and I got to meet

645
01:22:12,541 --> 01:22:16,791
Sarah and also Mark Erdmann, who two of

646
01:22:16,791 --> 01:22:19,416
the people that are still helping me in

647
01:22:19,416 --> 01:22:21,041
my professional career right now.

648
01:22:21,833 --> 01:22:24,000
I decided, okay, I'm just going to finish

649
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:25,791
this undergrad thesis as soon as

650
01:22:25,791 --> 01:22:27,500
possible. And then I'm just going to join

651
01:22:27,500 --> 01:22:28,958
this internship opportunities.

652
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:34,250
And I got I was presented in a completely

653
01:22:34,250 --> 01:22:37,666
different reality. You know, I got into

654
01:22:37,666 --> 01:22:40,083
La Macheara, which is this small island

655
01:22:40,083 --> 01:22:42,166
community in the eastern Indonesia where

656
01:22:42,166 --> 01:22:43,291
people have been hunting

657
01:22:43,291 --> 01:22:44,958
Mantharé for centuries.

658
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:48,958
So people, you know, do traditional

659
01:22:48,958 --> 01:22:51,833
harpoon fishing. They extract the meat

660
01:22:51,833 --> 01:22:54,375
for consumption and also the the gill

661
01:22:54,375 --> 01:22:57,333
plates for at a time that traditional

662
01:22:57,333 --> 01:23:00,458
Chinese medicine demand because in 2015

663
01:23:00,458 --> 01:23:02,750
and 16, the issues are still kind of like

664
01:23:02,750 --> 01:23:05,458
climbing up with the demand of of sharp

665
01:23:05,458 --> 01:23:06,958
products is really intensified.

666
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:11,041
But I just at the time, like I just feel

667
01:23:11,041 --> 01:23:14,333
a lot of disconnect, like in my undergrad

668
01:23:14,333 --> 01:23:16,291
degree, I study about this conservation,

669
01:23:16,708 --> 01:23:18,958
but all of that is focused on the ecology

670
01:23:18,958 --> 01:23:21,333
and biology of the species.

671
01:23:22,708 --> 01:23:24,500
And I got into the community and work

672
01:23:24,500 --> 01:23:25,958
with these issues of Mantharé.

673
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:29,250
I feel like no one of my knowledge

674
01:23:29,250 --> 01:23:31,458
actually matters. Like, who cares about

675
01:23:31,458 --> 01:23:33,375
coral reefs and people are just scared

676
01:23:33,375 --> 01:23:34,500
about Mantharé because

677
01:23:34,500 --> 01:23:35,916
it helps them to survive.

678
01:23:36,916 --> 01:23:39,041
They need the Mantharé for survival,

679
01:23:39,750 --> 01:23:43,791
for, you know, for food sources, the

680
01:23:43,791 --> 01:23:45,833
money to pay for their education and not

681
01:23:45,833 --> 01:23:48,291
the knowledge that I learned over the

682
01:23:48,291 --> 01:23:49,416
four years actually

683
01:23:49,416 --> 01:23:50,958
relevant to this community.

684
01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:54,166
So it really kind of opened my eyes about

685
01:23:54,166 --> 01:23:56,208
like, oh, wow, the knowledge that I

686
01:23:56,208 --> 01:23:59,583
learned, there's nothing applicable when

687
01:23:59,583 --> 01:24:01,416
it comes to conservation because a lot of

688
01:24:01,416 --> 01:24:03,583
the conservations that I learned from

689
01:24:03,583 --> 01:24:07,500
this internship with, you know, La Macara

690
01:24:07,500 --> 01:24:09,791
Project was a lot about the complex

691
01:24:09,791 --> 01:24:11,958
political reality of people.

692
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:14,833
So I started to gain this different

693
01:24:14,833 --> 01:24:17,666
experience about reality of knowledge

694
01:24:17,666 --> 01:24:20,708
that is not very compatible with with the

695
01:24:20,708 --> 01:24:22,166
real life of people in La Macara.

696
01:24:24,000 --> 01:24:28,250
And, you know, Mark and Sarah at the time

697
01:24:28,250 --> 01:24:32,791
were really helping me to understand more

698
01:24:32,791 --> 01:24:36,208
about, you know, how conservation can

699
01:24:36,208 --> 01:24:40,833
actually be something career wise, it's

700
01:24:40,833 --> 01:24:41,958
something that I can pursue.

701
01:24:42,791 --> 01:24:44,625
And I become very, very passionate about

702
01:24:44,625 --> 01:24:47,083
like, okay, so we understand that

703
01:24:47,083 --> 01:24:48,583
Mantharé deserves

704
01:24:48,583 --> 01:24:49,916
some form of protection.

705
01:24:51,416 --> 01:24:54,708
But then conservation may pose some kind

706
01:24:54,708 --> 01:24:56,833
of, you know, very difficult choice for

707
01:24:56,833 --> 01:25:00,166
people because at one point you have to,

708
01:25:00,166 --> 01:25:02,250
you know, cut off the

709
01:25:02,250 --> 01:25:03,750
supply of the Mantharé products.

710
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:07,208
But at the same time, you don't want to

711
01:25:07,208 --> 01:25:10,333
make sure that people are not

712
01:25:10,333 --> 01:25:14,541
socioeconomically impacted because a lot

713
01:25:14,541 --> 01:25:15,625
of this practice is actually

714
01:25:15,625 --> 01:25:18,583
it's part of the tradition.

715
01:25:18,833 --> 01:25:21,458
So they've been hunting this animals for

716
01:25:21,458 --> 01:25:24,333
hundreds of years and then suddenly, you

717
01:25:24,333 --> 01:25:28,208
know, there are some demands of

718
01:25:28,208 --> 01:25:30,958
conservation to happen in Indonesia.

719
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:34,000
And at the time in 2014, the national

720
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:37,583
protection of Mantharé takes place. It

721
01:25:37,583 --> 01:25:39,750
creates a lot of backlash within the

722
01:25:39,750 --> 01:25:43,750
community. I remember like, as recently,

723
01:25:44,083 --> 01:25:50,000
you know, graduated young people coming

724
01:25:50,000 --> 01:25:52,458
into the island, we had to be evacuated

725
01:25:52,458 --> 01:25:55,833
because we came there alongside the

726
01:25:55,833 --> 01:25:57,916
Ministry of Marine Affairs,

727
01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:01,583
who just come there to say like, hey, we

728
01:26:01,583 --> 01:26:03,916
just got this new regulations about

729
01:26:03,916 --> 01:26:07,083
Mantharé ban. So basically Mantharé

730
01:26:07,083 --> 01:26:07,916
fishing has been banned.

731
01:26:08,750 --> 01:26:11,750
But it's a very kind of like top down

732
01:26:11,750 --> 01:26:13,666
process. There's no consultation. So

733
01:26:13,666 --> 01:26:14,625
people are really upset.

734
01:26:15,458 --> 01:26:19,625
So and, you know, when when when I was

735
01:26:19,625 --> 01:26:23,416
there, people are like, you know, already

736
01:26:23,416 --> 01:26:26,500
gathered outside of our house, they're

737
01:26:26,500 --> 01:26:28,750
really they're really upset.

738
01:26:28,750 --> 01:26:31,500
And then like we have to be evacuated

739
01:26:31,500 --> 01:26:34,083
through the back door because people have

740
01:26:34,083 --> 01:26:36,458
already like surrounded our the place

741
01:26:36,458 --> 01:26:38,875
that we say they said that they're really

742
01:26:38,875 --> 01:26:39,791
opposed conservation.

743
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:42,541
And also because of the, you know, the

744
01:26:42,541 --> 01:26:44,500
minister came to the island at the time.

745
01:26:46,041 --> 01:26:48,333
So, yeah, it was it was a very difficult

746
01:26:48,333 --> 01:26:51,333
situations regarding conservation

747
01:26:51,333 --> 01:26:55,875
because, you know, people resist and they

748
01:26:55,875 --> 01:26:58,041
have kind of like a violent intention to

749
01:26:58,041 --> 01:27:00,250
kind of hurt people who

750
01:27:00,250 --> 01:27:01,041
work for conservation.

751
01:27:02,000 --> 01:27:04,041
But I think it, you know, it was it was

752
01:27:04,041 --> 01:27:06,458
really a difficult experience, but I

753
01:27:06,458 --> 01:27:10,166
think it really kind of like spark the

754
01:27:10,166 --> 01:27:12,875
questions within me and even like my PhD

755
01:27:12,875 --> 01:27:14,916
research right now is actually still

756
01:27:14,916 --> 01:27:17,250
trying to resolve that question and

757
01:27:17,250 --> 01:27:18,416
partly what inspired the

758
01:27:18,416 --> 01:27:19,583
tradition of Indonesia as well.

759
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:22,666
And I think, you know, I am a marine

760
01:27:22,666 --> 01:27:25,833
biologist by training. I studied the

761
01:27:25,833 --> 01:27:29,041
sharks, but, you know, I realized that

762
01:27:29,041 --> 01:27:31,291
the you know the sharks are important for

763
01:27:31,291 --> 01:27:34,500
conservation and for protections for

764
01:27:34,500 --> 01:27:36,083
biodiversity, but at the

765
01:27:36,083 --> 01:27:38,000
same time, like a lot of

766
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:41,958
Asian communities are, you know, are

767
01:27:41,958 --> 01:27:44,541
depending on them for life loads and for

768
01:27:44,541 --> 01:27:51,083
food. So how do we balance that issue to

769
01:27:51,083 --> 01:27:52,916
make sure that nobody is

770
01:27:52,916 --> 01:27:54,500
being negatively affected?

771
01:27:55,083 --> 01:27:57,291
Now, why now you obviously you're talking

772
01:27:57,291 --> 01:27:58,666
about manor a's there, but now you

773
01:27:58,666 --> 01:28:00,291
started your thing as a Thresher shark

774
01:28:00,291 --> 01:28:03,458
foundation. Now, why did the obviously

775
01:28:03,458 --> 01:28:05,000
another man to trust is very involved

776
01:28:05,000 --> 01:28:06,500
there. Well, how did you how did you end

777
01:28:06,500 --> 01:28:07,833
up landing on Thresher sharks?

778
01:28:09,208 --> 01:28:12,541
Yeah, I after my internship, you know, I

779
01:28:12,541 --> 01:28:13,750
finished for about like three, four

780
01:28:13,750 --> 01:28:15,458
months. I come back to

781
01:28:15,458 --> 01:28:18,041
Jakarta looking for jobs.

782
01:28:19,166 --> 01:28:21,875
The fun time. Yes, the fun time, you

783
01:28:21,875 --> 01:28:24,208
know, and marine science was not very

784
01:28:24,208 --> 01:28:26,291
popular back then. Like nobody needs

785
01:28:26,291 --> 01:28:27,625
marine science graduates.

786
01:28:29,083 --> 01:28:32,958
And like, I think a few months without

787
01:28:32,958 --> 01:28:35,083
jobs and in my mom gives like, where are

788
01:28:35,083 --> 01:28:37,958
you going to work? Like, use your use

789
01:28:37,958 --> 01:28:39,083
your degree and whatever.

790
01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:43,041
And eventually I reached out back to

791
01:28:43,041 --> 01:28:46,291
Sarah. Sarah Lewis, like, Hey, Sarah,

792
01:28:46,666 --> 01:28:48,041
like, it's been really difficult for me

793
01:28:48,041 --> 01:28:51,500
to find a job. If there is an

794
01:28:51,500 --> 01:28:52,750
opportunity, I would like to

795
01:28:52,750 --> 01:28:54,166
come back to La Mecara and work.

796
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:58,041
And Sarah eventually offered me two, two

797
01:28:58,041 --> 01:29:00,916
job positions. The first one is yeah, and

798
01:29:00,916 --> 01:29:04,291
she was like, over immediately, like

799
01:29:04,291 --> 01:29:06,625
there are two positions, one in Raja

800
01:29:06,625 --> 01:29:11,833
Ampat for men tray issues and also in

801
01:29:11,833 --> 01:29:13,833
Roti, which is a new

802
01:29:13,833 --> 01:29:15,083
project that was just established.

803
01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:18,083
And Roti is like this southern most

804
01:29:18,083 --> 01:29:20,833
island in Indonesia. It's really close to

805
01:29:20,833 --> 01:29:23,000
Australia. So it's a very, very remote

806
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:29,375
place. Water is difficult. Electricity is

807
01:29:29,375 --> 01:29:30,666
sometimes there is

808
01:29:30,666 --> 01:29:31,916
electricity sometimes not.

809
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:35,333
I immediately choose Raja Ampat because

810
01:29:35,333 --> 01:29:38,458
it's like a no brainer like Raja Ampat is

811
01:29:38,458 --> 01:29:41,625
one of the, you know, everybody wants to

812
01:29:41,625 --> 01:29:44,875
go through Raja Ampat. And, and I spent

813
01:29:44,875 --> 01:29:48,041
for about two years there working on the

814
01:29:48,041 --> 01:29:49,541
issues. It's completely different. It's

815
01:29:49,541 --> 01:29:50,500
still conservation, but

816
01:29:50,500 --> 01:29:51,791
completely different issues.

817
01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:54,625
So, Raja Ampat is has been very

818
01:29:54,625 --> 01:29:57,000
successful in establishing the marine

819
01:29:57,000 --> 01:30:00,291
protected area, shak sanctuaries and men

820
01:30:00,291 --> 01:30:02,416
tray populations actually thriving there.

821
01:30:03,916 --> 01:30:04,625
But the issue is

822
01:30:04,625 --> 01:30:07,083
mostly related to tourism.

823
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:10,458
So, in addition, government has been

824
01:30:10,458 --> 01:30:13,125
heavily promoted Raja Ampat as the

825
01:30:13,125 --> 01:30:15,666
sanctuary for men trays. There's a lot of

826
01:30:15,666 --> 01:30:17,625
tourists coming there and issues

827
01:30:17,625 --> 01:30:20,208
regarding offer tourism and people, you

828
01:30:20,208 --> 01:30:22,250
know, chasing men trays when they're

829
01:30:22,250 --> 01:30:26,666
diving and crushes of men trays and the

830
01:30:26,666 --> 01:30:28,500
boats because there's no speed limit

831
01:30:28,500 --> 01:30:30,541
around the men tray aggregation sites.

832
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:33,041
And I think that's my role at the time,

833
01:30:33,041 --> 01:30:35,333
like just resolving those issues working

834
01:30:35,333 --> 01:30:38,375
with the tourism operators and local

835
01:30:38,375 --> 01:30:40,291
communities who are managing the dive

836
01:30:40,291 --> 01:30:42,583
centers to make sure that you know

837
01:30:42,583 --> 01:30:44,583
there's some protocol of sustainable

838
01:30:44,583 --> 01:30:46,958
tourism practice for men tray diving.

839
01:30:47,708 --> 01:30:48,916
So I spent for two years.

840
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:52,583
I feel again like I think it's kind of

841
01:30:52,583 --> 01:30:54,666
like a you know, being a relatively young

842
01:30:54,666 --> 01:30:56,625
person and Raja Ampat has been kind of

843
01:30:56,625 --> 01:30:59,916
like a very successful case study of

844
01:30:59,916 --> 01:31:01,125
conservation in Indonesia

845
01:31:01,125 --> 01:31:02,291
or probably in the world.

846
01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:06,166
And the conservation initiative has been

847
01:31:06,166 --> 01:31:08,541
going on for two decades there. I feel

848
01:31:08,541 --> 01:31:11,208
not satisfied, like, don't get me wrong,

849
01:31:11,208 --> 01:31:13,333
you know, like, living there is amazing

850
01:31:13,333 --> 01:31:17,166
and you know, diving every day and you

851
01:31:17,166 --> 01:31:18,708
know, met new people every day.

852
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:20,000
Yeah.

853
01:31:21,625 --> 01:31:25,250
And at one time, like, we did this mantra

854
01:31:25,250 --> 01:31:28,541
acoustic tagging with with Mark and Sarah

855
01:31:28,541 --> 01:31:30,875
and also one of my former coordinator,

856
01:31:31,500 --> 01:31:34,875
Eddie set the one who's also a man tray

857
01:31:34,875 --> 01:31:36,041
researcher in Indonesia.

858
01:31:38,458 --> 01:31:40,875
I told Mark at the time, like, I don't

859
01:31:40,875 --> 01:31:43,083
feel satisfied working here because I

860
01:31:43,083 --> 01:31:45,458
feel like my contribution were not that

861
01:31:45,458 --> 01:31:49,000
many. And I wanted to start my own work.

862
01:31:50,291 --> 01:31:51,125
But I don't really

863
01:31:51,125 --> 01:31:52,416
know like where to start.

864
01:31:53,875 --> 01:31:56,500
And Mark told me like, oh, there's

865
01:31:56,500 --> 01:31:58,875
actually issue about treasure sharks in

866
01:31:58,875 --> 01:32:02,500
this island called Allure, which is in

867
01:32:02,500 --> 01:32:03,500
the Eastern subtengano region.

868
01:32:04,375 --> 01:32:08,291
So he referred to the story of Sarah and

869
01:32:08,291 --> 01:32:11,083
also Sean at the time, like they did an

870
01:32:11,083 --> 01:32:15,750
expedition in 2013 with a leaf aboard

871
01:32:15,750 --> 01:32:17,750
Finisey leaf aboard and

872
01:32:17,750 --> 01:32:18,958
they passed through Allure.

873
01:32:19,666 --> 01:32:22,833
They saw there are several people

874
01:32:22,833 --> 01:32:24,458
actually fishing for treasure sharks.

875
01:32:25,333 --> 01:32:29,916
And, you know, and then they saw there's

876
01:32:29,916 --> 01:32:31,500
actually a video that Sean released in

877
01:32:31,500 --> 01:32:35,125
2013. I think it was it was a film for a

878
01:32:35,125 --> 01:32:39,791
sitees meeting a cop meeting at 2013 to

879
01:32:39,791 --> 01:32:42,041
to bring treasure shark into the appendix

880
01:32:42,041 --> 01:32:45,791
appendix to, I guess, at a time.

881
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:49,458
So Sean was making some videos. All of

882
01:32:49,458 --> 01:32:50,291
these communities are

883
01:32:50,291 --> 01:32:51,416
landing treasure sharks.

884
01:32:52,875 --> 01:32:53,958
But there is no conservation

885
01:32:53,958 --> 01:32:56,583
organizations in the area. And frankly,

886
01:32:56,583 --> 01:32:59,541
there's no information about the treasure

887
01:32:59,541 --> 01:33:01,541
shark fishing practice. And it seems that

888
01:33:01,541 --> 01:33:04,041
people have been doing that for so many

889
01:33:04,041 --> 01:33:05,041
years because it's a

890
01:33:05,041 --> 01:33:05,958
quite a unique practice.

891
01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:10,875
They use this fishing line. So there are

892
01:33:10,875 --> 01:33:14,916
about four to five hooks, like a very

893
01:33:14,916 --> 01:33:17,375
large hooks. They stack all together and

894
01:33:17,375 --> 01:33:20,291
then they put something like a chicken

895
01:33:20,291 --> 01:33:24,750
fetters and, you know, sparkling strings.

896
01:33:26,166 --> 01:33:28,916
And they, you know, they put all of these

897
01:33:28,916 --> 01:33:31,291
chicken fetters in the in the hooks.

898
01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:36,291
And when you put that hooks under the

899
01:33:36,291 --> 01:33:37,500
water and then the chicken fighters

900
01:33:37,500 --> 01:33:41,000
start, you know, being hit by the current

901
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:41,875
and stuff like that, it

902
01:33:41,875 --> 01:33:43,666
mimics a school of fish.

903
01:33:44,208 --> 01:33:45,791
And, you know, the way that treasure

904
01:33:45,791 --> 01:33:49,000
shark fishing is to is to use the tail.

905
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:51,125
Yeah, the slap it. Yeah. And then when

906
01:33:51,125 --> 01:33:53,500
when they hit the hooks, the tail will

907
01:33:53,500 --> 01:33:54,958
will get stuck in there.

908
01:33:56,000 --> 01:33:58,500
I'll go by tail first. Yeah, they go by

909
01:33:58,500 --> 01:34:01,708
tail and people have learned this

910
01:34:01,708 --> 01:34:05,541
practice at a time like, you know, nobody

911
01:34:05,541 --> 01:34:07,583
knows about that practice. We start to

912
01:34:07,583 --> 01:34:08,458
discover the information

913
01:34:08,458 --> 01:34:09,666
after we start the project.

914
01:34:10,500 --> 01:34:14,041
And people actually like, you know, shift

915
01:34:14,041 --> 01:34:16,458
it. So today they catch the treasure

916
01:34:16,458 --> 01:34:19,375
sharks and then they cut open the

917
01:34:19,375 --> 01:34:21,583
stomach. They found, OK, there's some

918
01:34:21,583 --> 01:34:24,833
squids, meaning that there's a lot of

919
01:34:24,833 --> 01:34:25,583
squids in the ocean.

920
01:34:26,250 --> 01:34:27,958
So tomorrow they will use the sparkling

921
01:34:27,958 --> 01:34:30,000
strings because it's because underwater

922
01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:31,583
it looks like squid because it's like,

923
01:34:31,916 --> 01:34:34,625
you know, it's shiny and, you know, it

924
01:34:34,625 --> 01:34:35,750
looks like the movement of squid.

925
01:34:36,416 --> 01:34:38,458
And if tomorrow they saw like some

926
01:34:38,458 --> 01:34:40,750
anchovies, they will use the chicken

927
01:34:40,750 --> 01:34:42,125
fetters. That's fascinating.

928
01:34:42,833 --> 01:34:43,916
Yeah, it's very fascinating.

929
01:34:44,125 --> 01:34:46,708
They shift the type of bait every day,

930
01:34:47,000 --> 01:34:50,250
depending on the the behavior, the

931
01:34:50,250 --> 01:34:53,083
feeding behavior of the sharks. Anyway, I

932
01:34:53,083 --> 01:34:55,791
think that at a time like the story about

933
01:34:55,791 --> 01:34:56,958
treasure shark was really intriguing.

934
01:34:57,000 --> 01:35:00,125
And Mark was like, go ahead. If you want

935
01:35:00,125 --> 01:35:04,875
to start your own project, he said, like,

936
01:35:04,875 --> 01:35:06,583
I would be happy to fundraise some money

937
01:35:06,583 --> 01:35:10,583
for you so you can do some basic survey

938
01:35:10,583 --> 01:35:14,583
about about this information.

939
01:35:16,750 --> 01:35:18,500
And I was so intrigued with the idea. I

940
01:35:18,500 --> 01:35:20,291
was like, yeah, I would like to I would

941
01:35:20,291 --> 01:35:22,708
like to do that. And I actually reached

942
01:35:22,708 --> 01:35:26,625
out to my co-founder, Deiwe. She was my

943
01:35:26,625 --> 01:35:28,583
internship friend with La Macara.

944
01:35:28,916 --> 01:35:31,000
So we did an internship together in La

945
01:35:31,000 --> 01:35:33,416
Macara. There at the time she was doing

946
01:35:33,416 --> 01:35:35,125
her master's at the University of

947
01:35:35,125 --> 01:35:38,416
Queensland. She herself also kind of like

948
01:35:38,416 --> 01:35:40,583
got into an accident to

949
01:35:40,583 --> 01:35:41,958
marine science because she did.

950
01:35:42,000 --> 01:35:45,750
She did a chemistry undergrad and she

951
01:35:45,750 --> 01:35:51,208
works in pharmacy and in, you know, in

952
01:35:51,208 --> 01:35:54,208
pharmacy industry and she hated the

953
01:35:54,208 --> 01:35:56,458
industry and she decided like, okay, I'm

954
01:35:56,458 --> 01:35:58,208
just gonna go into marine science and she

955
01:35:58,208 --> 01:36:01,500
did master's in environmental management

956
01:36:01,500 --> 01:36:02,958
and work with Manthray.

957
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:06,833
But she was more interested in the idea

958
01:36:06,833 --> 01:36:09,708
of community development and also

959
01:36:09,708 --> 01:36:12,375
conflicts related to, you know, human and

960
01:36:12,375 --> 01:36:13,875
wildlife and things like that.

961
01:36:15,000 --> 01:36:16,625
And we work well together during the

962
01:36:16,625 --> 01:36:18,625
internship. And then I reached out to

963
01:36:18,625 --> 01:36:20,916
David, like, hey, I have this idea about

964
01:36:20,916 --> 01:36:24,250
like, you know, doing a project. Do you

965
01:36:24,250 --> 01:36:26,458
want to do you want to start doing this

966
01:36:26,458 --> 01:36:28,500
together because, like, you know, we both

967
01:36:28,500 --> 01:36:29,333
have the same interest

968
01:36:29,333 --> 01:36:29,958
and things like that.

969
01:36:30,583 --> 01:36:32,791
So we started to develop a new proposal

970
01:36:32,791 --> 01:36:35,541
to conservation leadership program. So

971
01:36:35,541 --> 01:36:39,166
it's a consortium at a time, Fauna and

972
01:36:39,166 --> 01:36:41,208
Flora International, WCS

973
01:36:41,208 --> 01:36:44,791
and Birdlife International.

974
01:36:45,291 --> 01:36:47,125
So they're based in Cambridge in the UK.

975
01:36:47,625 --> 01:36:52,791
So they gave around like 12,000 USD for,

976
01:36:53,083 --> 01:36:55,000
you know, one year project. Deiwe and I

977
01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:56,833
just decided invited two

978
01:36:56,833 --> 01:36:58,666
other people, Agustin and Eka.

979
01:36:59,375 --> 01:37:01,375
They're no longer with the project, but

980
01:37:01,375 --> 01:37:03,041
they and I are still with the

981
01:37:03,041 --> 01:37:05,250
organizations right now. And we got the

982
01:37:05,250 --> 01:37:09,750
money. So with the help of Mark as well

983
01:37:09,750 --> 01:37:12,500
and also Sarah, you know, we got some

984
01:37:12,500 --> 01:37:15,083
input about how to make a good proposal

985
01:37:15,083 --> 01:37:17,083
and research design.

986
01:37:17,916 --> 01:37:19,291
And I think once we get the money, I

987
01:37:19,291 --> 01:37:21,916
think it's start kind of like take off

988
01:37:21,916 --> 01:37:24,791
from there. We discover

989
01:37:24,791 --> 01:37:26,291
some new, some information.

990
01:37:27,208 --> 01:37:29,125
And the funny thing is like when when we

991
01:37:29,125 --> 01:37:32,958
first got into the island, it's kind of

992
01:37:32,958 --> 01:37:35,416
like an expeditions of the island,

993
01:37:35,416 --> 01:37:37,583
really, like, because there's some

994
01:37:37,583 --> 01:37:39,375
there's some department of marine and

995
01:37:39,375 --> 01:37:42,250
fisheries affairs and the conservation

996
01:37:42,250 --> 01:37:45,500
organizations that exist in the island

997
01:37:45,500 --> 01:37:49,541
was only WWF who exclusively working on

998
01:37:49,541 --> 01:37:50,708
marine tourism at that time.

999
01:37:51,541 --> 01:37:54,583
When we got into the island, we did

1000
01:37:54,583 --> 01:37:56,416
survey, we asked everybody, like, have

1001
01:37:56,416 --> 01:37:58,083
you seen the shark? Have you seen the

1002
01:37:58,083 --> 01:38:00,291
stretchy sharks? And even the Department

1003
01:38:00,291 --> 01:38:02,208
of Marine Affairs, like, nope, there's no

1004
01:38:02,208 --> 01:38:04,208
sharks like this. Like, we've never seen

1005
01:38:04,208 --> 01:38:07,958
that before. Like, you know, nobody knows

1006
01:38:07,958 --> 01:38:09,708
about it. And we asked also people from

1007
01:38:09,708 --> 01:38:11,083
WWF, like, they've never

1008
01:38:11,083 --> 01:38:12,875
seen any sharks like that.

1009
01:38:15,333 --> 01:38:17,250
And the way that we discovered the

1010
01:38:17,250 --> 01:38:21,958
village was because the, you know, the

1011
01:38:21,958 --> 01:38:24,875
person from the person that that be

1012
01:38:24,875 --> 01:38:26,875
tripped together with Sean and Sarah on

1013
01:38:26,875 --> 01:38:30,250
2013, the Finisi owner,

1014
01:38:30,791 --> 01:38:31,958
she already passed away.

1015
01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:37,208
So she has a staff and they told us, oh,

1016
01:38:37,666 --> 01:38:41,416
the village name is the village of the

1017
01:38:41,416 --> 01:38:44,333
village when the sun rises. They called

1018
01:38:44,333 --> 01:38:46,000
it there. And they changed the village

1019
01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:50,958
name, like three years ago. So we tried

1020
01:38:50,958 --> 01:38:54,375
to find where this village is. We go

1021
01:38:54,375 --> 01:38:55,958
across the island for the entire day.

1022
01:38:56,000 --> 01:39:00,458
Nothing we could find. And at one point,

1023
01:39:00,458 --> 01:39:02,916
like during the afternoon at four or five

1024
01:39:02,916 --> 01:39:05,791
p.m., I think we passed through this

1025
01:39:05,791 --> 01:39:08,541
small village. And we saw literally two

1026
01:39:08,541 --> 01:39:11,208
people are dragging the tail of treasure

1027
01:39:11,208 --> 01:39:14,375
sharks on the shore. And that's where we

1028
01:39:14,375 --> 01:39:17,291
we started to like, oh, my God, this,

1029
01:39:17,875 --> 01:39:20,000
this shark is here. And then the village

1030
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:23,166
is real. Like, it's not a fiction village

1031
01:39:23,166 --> 01:39:24,958
that we couldn't find anywhere. And we were like, oh, my God, we're not going to find any.

1032
01:39:25,000 --> 01:39:27,958
And yeah, I think that's that's where we

1033
01:39:27,958 --> 01:39:29,958
eventually decided to like stay in the

1034
01:39:29,958 --> 01:39:31,750
village and learn more about the people.

1035
01:39:31,750 --> 01:39:34,083
So it's a very long story. I couldn't

1036
01:39:34,083 --> 01:39:35,958
know that's where the people

1037
01:39:35,958 --> 01:39:36,958
welcoming when you found out.

1038
01:39:38,000 --> 01:39:41,166
They are. Yeah, because at a time, like

1039
01:39:41,166 --> 01:39:44,625
our intention was just like we want to

1040
01:39:44,625 --> 01:39:48,250
know, you know, their practice, like how

1041
01:39:48,250 --> 01:39:49,750
long they've been fishing the sharks.

1042
01:39:50,791 --> 01:39:54,000
What was the motivation? Is it for for

1043
01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:57,833
subsistence? Is it for, you know, the the

1044
01:39:57,833 --> 01:39:58,958
the fin markets or something like that?

1045
01:39:59,000 --> 01:40:01,083
So it's a it's a clear kind of like

1046
01:40:01,083 --> 01:40:02,583
questions that we just want to know.

1047
01:40:02,583 --> 01:40:04,583
Yeah, we don't want to do anything

1048
01:40:04,583 --> 01:40:06,500
regarding conservation. We just want to

1049
01:40:06,500 --> 01:40:08,250
understand what what

1050
01:40:08,250 --> 01:40:09,750
people are doing in there.

1051
01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:12,166
And at the time, like we disguise

1052
01:40:12,166 --> 01:40:14,000
ourselves as an undergrad student because

1053
01:40:14,000 --> 01:40:16,291
technically daily is still doing her

1054
01:40:16,291 --> 01:40:19,041
master's at Queensland. And I just

1055
01:40:19,041 --> 01:40:21,166
finished my undergrad, like two years

1056
01:40:21,166 --> 01:40:24,166
after my undergrad, I said, like, I'm

1057
01:40:24,166 --> 01:40:24,666
still at university.

1058
01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:26,666
I'm doing this research and they're like,

1059
01:40:26,666 --> 01:40:28,416
they're happy to like, you know, helping

1060
01:40:28,416 --> 01:40:32,916
us. Yeah, help a student out. Yeah. These

1061
01:40:32,916 --> 01:40:34,541
are these are all pelagic threshers,

1062
01:40:34,541 --> 01:40:35,791
correct? You're working on the are

1063
01:40:35,791 --> 01:40:37,416
pelagic threshers. Yes, the pelagic.

1064
01:40:37,708 --> 01:40:40,041
Do they get do they get the big eye or

1065
01:40:40,041 --> 01:40:43,125
any of the others? Big guy at all? No.

1066
01:40:43,458 --> 01:40:45,708
Yeah, we just found the pelagic.

1067
01:40:46,000 --> 01:40:49,500
Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you got this program

1068
01:40:49,500 --> 01:40:51,625
going. I got to ask you, like, so how did

1069
01:40:51,625 --> 01:40:52,541
you end up at University

1070
01:40:52,541 --> 01:40:53,791
of California, Santa Cruz?

1071
01:40:55,583 --> 01:41:00,000
Yes. So we did the project for about two

1072
01:41:00,000 --> 01:41:02,125
years, right? And this is where the

1073
01:41:02,125 --> 01:41:06,291
reality about starting an NGO starts to

1074
01:41:06,291 --> 01:41:08,500
become very difficult because like, okay,

1075
01:41:08,500 --> 01:41:11,833
we have this 12,000 USD for start. And

1076
01:41:11,833 --> 01:41:13,291
then, you know, we

1077
01:41:13,291 --> 01:41:13,958
eventually finished the project.

1078
01:41:14,000 --> 01:41:18,708
And we, with the help of Mark and Sarah,

1079
01:41:19,125 --> 01:41:21,208
we secured additional funding for

1080
01:41:21,208 --> 01:41:25,291
satellite tags. We just, you know, trying

1081
01:41:25,291 --> 01:41:27,333
to understand the movement at a time

1082
01:41:27,333 --> 01:41:29,666
like, oh, because this is the only

1083
01:41:29,666 --> 01:41:32,000
opportunity for us to do the tagging

1084
01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:34,250
because we can ask people like, can you

1085
01:41:34,250 --> 01:41:34,958
help us to catch the sharks?

1086
01:41:35,000 --> 01:41:39,000
And we measure the, you know, whether the

1087
01:41:39,000 --> 01:41:42,041
sharks, they're being lifted to the

1088
01:41:42,041 --> 01:41:45,750
surface can still survive or they die.

1089
01:41:46,000 --> 01:41:48,250
And then eventually the sharks actually

1090
01:41:48,250 --> 01:41:50,958
pretty resilient. So after they're being,

1091
01:41:50,958 --> 01:41:52,875
you know, dragged up to the surface from

1092
01:41:52,875 --> 01:41:57,041
the depth of like 200 300 meters, we

1093
01:41:57,041 --> 01:42:00,041
released them and they can still swim and

1094
01:42:00,041 --> 01:42:01,958
disappear into the depth.

1095
01:42:02,041 --> 01:42:06,333
So we did tag one with satellite tags. It

1096
01:42:06,333 --> 01:42:10,375
reveals very, very interesting movement.

1097
01:42:10,833 --> 01:42:12,541
It was the first sharks that we ever

1098
01:42:12,541 --> 01:42:15,208
tagged in Indonesia, because the sharks

1099
01:42:15,208 --> 01:42:17,791
is very elusive. So it's not like manta

1100
01:42:17,791 --> 01:42:19,125
rays, their surface. And then you can

1101
01:42:19,125 --> 01:42:21,166
just, you know, use some spear and then

1102
01:42:21,166 --> 01:42:22,583
put some tags on the

1103
01:42:22,583 --> 01:42:22,958
back of the manta ray.

1104
01:42:23,000 --> 01:42:26,625
But this was the opportunity for us to

1105
01:42:26,625 --> 01:42:29,208
study them. And Mark was like, Mark was

1106
01:42:29,208 --> 01:42:30,791
really excited. It was like, it could be

1107
01:42:30,791 --> 01:42:32,875
a lab for studying treasure sharks

1108
01:42:32,875 --> 01:42:35,541
because you basically can can catch them

1109
01:42:35,541 --> 01:42:36,958
and tag them and release them safely.

1110
01:42:37,000 --> 01:42:41,791
And but I think like during the first and

1111
01:42:41,791 --> 01:42:43,375
the second year, like it's just really

1112
01:42:43,375 --> 01:42:47,791
hard to fundraise for the study about,

1113
01:42:47,791 --> 01:42:50,958
you know, human interactions because a

1114
01:42:50,958 --> 01:42:54,750
lot of a lot of the grand landscape at a

1115
01:42:54,750 --> 01:42:56,333
time, we're more interested in kind of

1116
01:42:56,333 --> 01:42:57,958
like ecological research.

1117
01:42:58,000 --> 01:43:05,333
So the money runs out and daily finish

1118
01:43:05,333 --> 01:43:08,583
her master's degree. And she started a

1119
01:43:08,583 --> 01:43:13,833
new job at the time. And I didn't have a

1120
01:43:13,833 --> 01:43:17,083
job. I ran out of the money and even like

1121
01:43:17,083 --> 01:43:18,541
during the project, like I didn't get

1122
01:43:18,541 --> 01:43:23,375
paid. I just survived with the with the

1123
01:43:23,375 --> 01:43:25,041
grand man because he can pay for my food

1124
01:43:25,041 --> 01:43:25,958
and for my accommodation.

1125
01:43:26,000 --> 01:43:31,500
But it doesn't pay my salaries. So like,

1126
01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:34,833
at one point, I feel like, oh, I need to

1127
01:43:34,833 --> 01:43:37,166
survive too. Like I need to find a job.

1128
01:43:38,000 --> 01:43:41,458
Yeah. And, you know, eventually I landed

1129
01:43:41,458 --> 01:43:44,166
this position with UNDP, the United

1130
01:43:44,166 --> 01:43:44,916
Nations Development

1131
01:43:44,916 --> 01:43:47,875
Program as a fisheries officer.

1132
01:43:49,000 --> 01:43:52,916
But it was a short term program. And as

1133
01:43:52,916 --> 01:43:54,583
I'm doing, I was thinking about, like,

1134
01:43:54,583 --> 01:43:57,875
okay, how are we going to continue this

1135
01:43:57,875 --> 01:43:59,958
work with treasure sharks because we've

1136
01:43:59,958 --> 01:44:02,250
been struggling to fundraise and, you

1137
01:44:02,250 --> 01:44:04,833
know, and we still have to do our full

1138
01:44:04,833 --> 01:44:06,500
time jobs, each of us.

1139
01:44:07,125 --> 01:44:12,625
So, like, I think at a time, like, okay,

1140
01:44:12,625 --> 01:44:14,250
you had your master's. So I think it's

1141
01:44:14,250 --> 01:44:18,375
probably my time to do a master's. And I

1142
01:44:18,375 --> 01:44:22,083
actually told Mark at a time like, I

1143
01:44:22,083 --> 01:44:23,250
don't think I will continue this treasure

1144
01:44:23,250 --> 01:44:26,041
shark project anymore because like, you

1145
01:44:26,041 --> 01:44:28,041
know, funding wise, it's difficult.

1146
01:44:29,000 --> 01:44:31,875
And I think doing a master's probably,

1147
01:44:32,125 --> 01:44:36,666
you know, a good opportunity for me. And

1148
01:44:36,666 --> 01:44:40,625
UC Santa Cruz was the one that opens. And

1149
01:44:40,625 --> 01:44:42,333
I applied for that

1150
01:44:42,333 --> 01:44:43,458
one. I was wait listed.

1151
01:44:45,208 --> 01:44:47,791
I was like, oh, Dan, I didn't get into

1152
01:44:47,791 --> 01:44:49,250
the program. And then eventually, I think

1153
01:44:49,250 --> 01:44:51,000
a few weeks later, somebody dropped off

1154
01:44:51,000 --> 01:44:54,000
and then I got into a primary selection

1155
01:44:54,000 --> 01:44:57,166
was like, okay, I got in.

1156
01:44:58,000 --> 01:45:02,708
And I think the during my master's, yes,

1157
01:45:03,166 --> 01:45:04,958
sort of kind of the stories really. And

1158
01:45:04,958 --> 01:45:09,375
during my master's, like, I got exposed

1159
01:45:09,375 --> 01:45:11,625
for your first time on theory about, you

1160
01:45:11,625 --> 01:45:14,333
know, social science and policy.

1161
01:45:15,000 --> 01:45:18,250
And I started to draw from all of this

1162
01:45:18,250 --> 01:45:21,416
field experience about like, you know,

1163
01:45:21,416 --> 01:45:26,041
conflicts between livelihoods, survival

1164
01:45:26,041 --> 01:45:29,500
and the need for conservation.

1165
01:45:31,000 --> 01:45:33,916
And during my master's, because the

1166
01:45:33,916 --> 01:45:35,791
program is like one year coursework and

1167
01:45:35,791 --> 01:45:37,541
then the second year you have to do your

1168
01:45:37,541 --> 01:45:39,833
full capstone. So it's practical, it's

1169
01:45:39,833 --> 01:45:40,333
kind of like a

1170
01:45:40,333 --> 01:45:41,458
professional degree, really.

1171
01:45:42,000 --> 01:45:47,000
And I got a lot of support from Don from

1172
01:45:47,000 --> 01:45:49,958
from and my professor, the director of

1173
01:45:49,958 --> 01:45:52,666
the program and professor, he's a Santa

1174
01:45:52,666 --> 01:45:55,958
Cruz are really, really kind and helpful.

1175
01:45:57,000 --> 01:45:58,416
At a time, I still thinking about like,

1176
01:45:58,416 --> 01:45:59,916
oh, maybe I should like

1177
01:45:59,916 --> 01:46:01,208
explore something else.

1178
01:46:03,000 --> 01:46:04,541
At a time, Don was actually encouraging

1179
01:46:04,541 --> 01:46:07,875
me to look at other topic. So I explore

1180
01:46:07,875 --> 01:46:10,041
other topics about like locally managed

1181
01:46:10,041 --> 01:46:12,291
marine areas or more kind of like social

1182
01:46:12,291 --> 01:46:13,333
science direction,

1183
01:46:13,333 --> 01:46:14,791
rather than the sharks.

1184
01:46:16,666 --> 01:46:20,583
And then I was like, you know, I'm not

1185
01:46:20,583 --> 01:46:22,000
really sure like what I'm gonna do. I

1186
01:46:22,000 --> 01:46:23,416
don't know, like my capstone project,

1187
01:46:23,416 --> 01:46:25,125
what it's gonna be because treasure shark

1188
01:46:25,125 --> 01:46:28,041
project at a time like it's basically

1189
01:46:28,041 --> 01:46:28,958
dormant. We don't have any money.

1190
01:46:29,000 --> 01:46:34,125
We don't have, you know, any any presence

1191
01:46:34,125 --> 01:46:35,833
and in the island because both the way

1192
01:46:35,833 --> 01:46:37,583
and I already out of the island there in

1193
01:46:37,583 --> 01:46:39,500
Jakarta, I mean, in Santa Cruz.

1194
01:46:40,208 --> 01:46:43,666
And at one point, Mark called me like,

1195
01:46:44,458 --> 01:46:48,291
Hey, Rafi, we just secured this money to

1196
01:46:48,291 --> 01:46:51,208
do some acoustic research and some

1197
01:46:51,208 --> 01:46:52,875
satellites, I think he secured around

1198
01:46:52,875 --> 01:46:54,958
like 80,000 USD or something.

1199
01:46:56,000 --> 01:47:01,250
If if you want, we can use the money for

1200
01:47:01,250 --> 01:47:04,750
your capstone project, your, you know,

1201
01:47:04,750 --> 01:47:05,833
your your master's degree.

1202
01:47:07,125 --> 01:47:09,000
And I was so unsure. It was like, oh,

1203
01:47:09,000 --> 01:47:10,625
gang, I actually want to try something

1204
01:47:10,625 --> 01:47:12,333
else. Now Mark got this money.

1205
01:47:14,000 --> 01:47:15,958
I have to go back to work with sharks.

1206
01:47:17,000 --> 01:47:20,833
I was so torn. Yeah, and I told Mark,

1207
01:47:21,375 --> 01:47:24,583
like, I don't know, like, I think I want

1208
01:47:24,583 --> 01:47:26,500
to explore something else. Like, you

1209
01:47:26,500 --> 01:47:28,250
know, I don't I don't want to work with

1210
01:47:28,250 --> 01:47:29,750
sharks anymore because like, you know,

1211
01:47:29,750 --> 01:47:31,375
it's been pretty difficult with, you

1212
01:47:31,375 --> 01:47:32,208
know, with with one

1213
01:47:32,208 --> 01:47:33,416
year without any salaries.

1214
01:47:34,166 --> 01:47:36,625
I don't want to get into that anymore.

1215
01:47:37,041 --> 01:47:40,750
Right. And he was like, oh, but I got

1216
01:47:40,750 --> 01:47:43,625
this money just so you can work on it. I

1217
01:47:43,625 --> 01:47:45,125
don't want to get I don't

1218
01:47:45,125 --> 01:47:45,958
want to take the money from you.

1219
01:47:46,000 --> 01:47:49,458
You don't want to work with the project

1220
01:47:49,458 --> 01:47:51,166
because this money is practically a

1221
01:47:51,166 --> 01:47:55,166
reserve for your project. I was like, oh,

1222
01:47:55,166 --> 01:47:57,250
damn. OK. I guess like I mean, it's a

1223
01:47:57,250 --> 01:47:59,125
good problem because like, I don't have

1224
01:47:59,125 --> 01:48:00,666
to worry about funding anymore.

1225
01:48:09,125 --> 01:48:12,000
But thankfully, I think during this

1226
01:48:12,000 --> 01:48:14,125
covid, I got to be in the island full

1227
01:48:14,125 --> 01:48:19,166
time and working fully with my project.

1228
01:48:20,541 --> 01:48:23,125
So the entire the entire year in 2021,

1229
01:48:23,125 --> 01:48:26,958
while I was doing my capstone, we got a

1230
01:48:26,958 --> 01:48:29,583
lot of momentum and stories about about

1231
01:48:29,583 --> 01:48:32,166
the sharks, you know, the acoustic tags

1232
01:48:32,166 --> 01:48:34,625
that we put on the sharks eventually

1233
01:48:34,625 --> 01:48:36,125
produce a very exciting

1234
01:48:36,125 --> 01:48:37,708
results where the sharks.

1235
01:48:39,000 --> 01:48:40,791
We found out the sharks actually quite

1236
01:48:40,791 --> 01:48:43,666
resident to the area and then from the

1237
01:48:43,666 --> 01:48:45,750
satellite tags as well, the sharks

1238
01:48:45,750 --> 01:48:47,666
actually go out of the island, but then

1239
01:48:47,666 --> 01:48:51,250
go back to the channel where fishers are,

1240
01:48:51,250 --> 01:48:53,375
you know, are fishing them.

1241
01:48:53,375 --> 01:48:55,208
And we have this conclusion about, you

1242
01:48:55,208 --> 01:48:58,208
know, partial conclusion about like, and

1243
01:48:58,208 --> 01:49:00,916
I forgot to mention that 80 percent of

1244
01:49:00,916 --> 01:49:02,958
the sharks that are landed are pregnant.

1245
01:49:04,000 --> 01:49:10,041
So, yeah, and we we collected some data

1246
01:49:10,041 --> 01:49:13,000
on, you know, on the catches when we

1247
01:49:13,000 --> 01:49:17,125
started in 2018 and there are 300 sharks

1248
01:49:17,125 --> 01:49:20,125
that are landed in one year and 80

1249
01:49:20,125 --> 01:49:20,958
percent of them are pregnant.

1250
01:49:22,000 --> 01:49:25,333
And interesting story is that like when

1251
01:49:25,333 --> 01:49:27,875
the you know, when when the sharks being

1252
01:49:27,875 --> 01:49:30,875
caught on the stomach and they can find

1253
01:49:30,875 --> 01:49:34,500
two pups inside, sometimes the size

1254
01:49:34,500 --> 01:49:35,500
already big and then the

1255
01:49:35,500 --> 01:49:37,541
children will go around the shore.

1256
01:49:37,541 --> 01:49:40,541
They will gather when the fire call. Hey,

1257
01:49:40,541 --> 01:49:42,375
there's some shark pups in here. And then

1258
01:49:42,375 --> 01:49:44,916
the children give some massage to the

1259
01:49:44,916 --> 01:49:46,791
baby sharks and then the baby sharks

1260
01:49:46,791 --> 01:49:47,958
comes alive and then

1261
01:49:47,958 --> 01:49:48,958
they will release it.

1262
01:49:50,000 --> 01:49:52,083
So it becomes kind of like a practice

1263
01:49:52,083 --> 01:49:54,500
that people are so familiar. They said

1264
01:49:54,500 --> 01:49:55,500
like, oh, yeah, it's actually pretty

1265
01:49:55,500 --> 01:49:58,083
common for the children to help massaging

1266
01:49:58,083 --> 01:49:59,166
the baby sharks and

1267
01:49:59,166 --> 01:50:00,000
then they come back alive.

1268
01:50:01,916 --> 01:50:04,541
And then we have this notion that

1269
01:50:04,541 --> 01:50:09,000
probably it's an important, you know,

1270
01:50:09,000 --> 01:50:09,958
popping grounds for the shark because it's a bay.

1271
01:50:10,000 --> 01:50:13,000
So if you if you look at the map, like

1272
01:50:13,000 --> 01:50:16,125
it's a bay. So so people fishing at the

1273
01:50:16,125 --> 01:50:19,750
mouth of the bay and we put some, you

1274
01:50:19,750 --> 01:50:21,250
know, acoustic receivers

1275
01:50:21,250 --> 01:50:23,916
in there and it's true.

1276
01:50:23,916 --> 01:50:28,208
Actually, we take around 24 sharks. I

1277
01:50:28,208 --> 01:50:30,041
forgot the exact same. I think seven or

1278
01:50:30,041 --> 01:50:33,458
nine actually precedent

1279
01:50:33,458 --> 01:50:33,958
for the for six months.

1280
01:50:34,041 --> 01:50:38,375
So for the entire period of six months,

1281
01:50:38,375 --> 01:50:40,166
they stay there. They don't get go

1282
01:50:40,166 --> 01:50:42,083
anywhere. And all of them are pregnant

1283
01:50:42,083 --> 01:50:44,416
females that we that we that we can't do

1284
01:50:44,416 --> 01:50:46,916
them the tag because it's big and, you

1285
01:50:46,916 --> 01:50:49,791
know, the size and stuff like that.

1286
01:50:50,041 --> 01:50:52,125
Now, you continue this now that you're

1287
01:50:52,125 --> 01:50:54,125
doing your PhD at Duke or you still work

1288
01:50:54,125 --> 01:50:55,625
continue to work with the Thresher sharks

1289
01:50:55,625 --> 01:50:55,958
as part of your dissertation.

1290
01:50:56,208 --> 01:51:02,250
Yeah, that's a good question. So

1291
01:51:02,250 --> 01:51:05,750
basically the the issue of Trisha shark

1292
01:51:05,750 --> 01:51:07,875
fisheries now because of Trisha

1293
01:51:07,875 --> 01:51:10,125
Indonesia, we feel like it's quite

1294
01:51:10,125 --> 01:51:12,458
successful because we started the

1295
01:51:12,458 --> 01:51:15,000
intervention of alternative livelihood in

1296
01:51:15,000 --> 01:51:15,958
2021 after I finished from Santa Cruz.

1297
01:51:17,000 --> 01:51:22,708
You know, we got a lot of attention. Our

1298
01:51:22,708 --> 01:51:26,000
acoustic tagging was very exciting and

1299
01:51:26,000 --> 01:51:29,708
people really drawn to the results of our

1300
01:51:29,708 --> 01:51:32,833
research and we got quite a lot of

1301
01:51:32,833 --> 01:51:35,958
funding and I got pretty smarter as well on how to write proposals.

1302
01:51:37,000 --> 01:51:41,666
So I got a lot more confidence in

1303
01:51:41,666 --> 01:51:45,791
fundraising and stuff like that. And we

1304
01:51:45,791 --> 01:51:47,250
started the intervention of alternative

1305
01:51:47,250 --> 01:51:50,333
livelihoods and we cut down the fishing

1306
01:51:50,333 --> 01:51:55,291
by 90%. So in our best line, which we

1307
01:51:55,291 --> 01:51:58,666
collected in 2018 fishers can land for

1308
01:51:58,666 --> 01:51:59,958
about 300 sharks in one year.

1309
01:52:01,000 --> 01:52:07,500
And after our intervention is only 50 50

1310
01:52:07,500 --> 01:52:12,958
less than 50 sharks being landed. So we

1311
01:52:12,958 --> 01:52:15,291
reckon that, you know, like the

1312
01:52:15,291 --> 01:52:16,916
intervention works because people

1313
01:52:16,916 --> 01:52:18,666
decided, okay, once they

1314
01:52:18,666 --> 01:52:19,958
were being provided by equal

1315
01:52:21,000 --> 01:52:24,541
Live little opportunities. So some of

1316
01:52:24,541 --> 01:52:28,000
them start a land based business like

1317
01:52:28,000 --> 01:52:31,333
starting kiosks. They sell some some

1318
01:52:31,333 --> 01:52:33,000
goods in the village. Some of them

1319
01:52:33,000 --> 01:52:35,500
decided to stay fishing. They fish for

1320
01:52:35,500 --> 01:52:37,541
red snapper and tuna and we provide some

1321
01:52:37,541 --> 01:52:40,000
provisions like like boats and stuff like

1322
01:52:40,000 --> 01:52:42,125
that. And they feel like their new

1323
01:52:42,125 --> 01:52:42,958
livelihoods provide some kind of equal

1324
01:52:43,000 --> 01:52:47,125
Yeah, or even better better than the

1325
01:52:47,125 --> 01:52:49,666
shark fisheries and yeah, this decides to

1326
01:52:49,666 --> 01:52:51,583
stick with it. Yeah. How do you feel

1327
01:52:51,583 --> 01:52:53,333
about being one of the keynote speakers

1328
01:52:53,333 --> 01:52:56,666
at the sharks international this year? I

1329
01:52:56,666 --> 01:52:58,583
would say it's it's I didn't really

1330
01:52:58,583 --> 01:53:00,291
expect that like suddenly I got an email

1331
01:53:00,291 --> 01:53:01,833
like, Hey, congratulations. You guys like

1332
01:53:01,833 --> 01:53:06,458
there was like, well as a keynote. I

1333
01:53:06,458 --> 01:53:08,458
didn't really expect that. Yeah. Yeah.

1334
01:53:08,458 --> 01:53:10,416
Oh, congratulations on that. Yeah, that's

1335
01:53:10,416 --> 01:53:12,583
a huge, huge, huge honor. And that huge

1336
01:53:12,583 --> 01:53:12,958
honor. And that's what I think.

1337
01:53:13,000 --> 01:53:16,041
Yeah, so so I so I guess where do you see

1338
01:53:16,041 --> 01:53:17,916
your career going from here now?

1339
01:53:20,250 --> 01:53:22,375
Well, that is a that

1340
01:53:22,375 --> 01:53:23,416
is a difficult question.

1341
01:53:24,000 --> 01:53:29,458
Because now with with with my PhD, I'm

1342
01:53:29,458 --> 01:53:31,916
actually still weighing whether I want to

1343
01:53:31,916 --> 01:53:35,041
get into academia or, you know, stay in

1344
01:53:35,041 --> 01:53:36,708
more kind of like in practitioner route.

1345
01:53:37,833 --> 01:53:38,791
I do a lot of research.

1346
01:53:40,083 --> 01:53:44,541
I really passionate about the topics that

1347
01:53:44,541 --> 01:53:46,833
I'm currently working in. And I think I

1348
01:53:46,833 --> 01:53:48,791
didn't get to answer questions about the

1349
01:53:48,791 --> 01:53:52,791
research. My research about my PhD is now

1350
01:53:52,791 --> 01:53:55,458
focused on Mantharay back to La Mechera

1351
01:53:55,458 --> 01:53:57,500
where I when I first started about the

1352
01:53:57,500 --> 01:53:58,291
issues of conservation.

1353
01:54:24,750 --> 01:54:26,083
So the topic will be about, again, issues of livelihoods and conservation. And that's kind of like the topic that

1354
01:54:26,083 --> 01:54:29,000
I'm really interested in right now. And I

1355
01:54:29,000 --> 01:54:30,666
feel like it's it's an area where

1356
01:54:30,666 --> 01:54:33,875
Indonesia is so promising for academic

1357
01:54:33,875 --> 01:54:35,166
research in that area.

1358
01:54:37,291 --> 01:54:39,625
So probably I would I would continue to

1359
01:54:39,625 --> 01:54:41,833
pursue some research opportunities.

1360
01:54:44,000 --> 01:54:45,958
And at the same time, I'm really hopeful

1361
01:54:45,958 --> 01:54:48,458
that I can continue as well and nurture

1362
01:54:48,458 --> 01:54:50,708
the organization that's distracted

1363
01:54:50,708 --> 01:54:53,000
Indonesia that I have right now because

1364
01:54:53,000 --> 01:54:56,333
we have three different sites, one in

1365
01:54:56,333 --> 01:54:58,625
Alor, one in Flores now focus in mobile

1366
01:54:58,625 --> 01:55:00,708
arrays and the others in in Bandar.

1367
01:55:01,041 --> 01:55:02,541
And we employ now 25

1368
01:55:02,541 --> 01:55:05,708
young people to work.

1369
01:55:07,000 --> 01:55:08,625
When we started, I cannot even pay

1370
01:55:08,625 --> 01:55:12,291
myself. Now we employ 25 people, which is

1371
01:55:12,291 --> 01:55:15,333
quite unbelievable. So I think and and

1372
01:55:15,333 --> 01:55:18,833
and I think one that I feel really,

1373
01:55:18,833 --> 01:55:24,208
really optimistic was because all of

1374
01:55:24,208 --> 01:55:27,291
those people, all of the people that we

1375
01:55:27,291 --> 01:55:29,041
hired are indigenous to the area.

1376
01:55:30,000 --> 01:55:33,750
And they started to see the value of

1377
01:55:33,750 --> 01:55:38,541
conservation, like on 2021, you know,

1378
01:55:38,541 --> 01:55:41,833
after I finished my master's, my dad

1379
01:55:41,833 --> 01:55:43,541
eventually passed away because of COVID.

1380
01:55:45,000 --> 01:55:47,875
Yeah, thank you. And I think that was

1381
01:55:47,875 --> 01:55:51,166
kind of like another turning point, like,

1382
01:55:51,791 --> 01:55:56,333
you know, and my mom was alone in

1383
01:55:56,333 --> 01:55:59,625
Jakarta. I was in Alor and my mom was

1384
01:55:59,625 --> 01:56:01,541
asking me, like, is it possible for me to

1385
01:56:01,541 --> 01:56:04,208
come back to Jakarta and looking for a

1386
01:56:04,208 --> 01:56:05,958
job there to be with her?

1387
01:56:06,000 --> 01:56:08,208
Because I have a sister, but my sister

1388
01:56:08,208 --> 01:56:10,291
married and she lives really far away

1389
01:56:10,291 --> 01:56:12,541
from my mom and have a little brother who

1390
01:56:12,541 --> 01:56:16,458
is still in school. And she was asking me

1391
01:56:16,458 --> 01:56:20,416
to to be with her. And during that time,

1392
01:56:20,416 --> 01:56:23,708
like I discussed with my teams, like, I

1393
01:56:23,708 --> 01:56:25,250
think I think we're just going to close

1394
01:56:25,250 --> 01:56:27,291
Indonesia for good right now because

1395
01:56:27,291 --> 01:56:29,958
like, you know, it's just so stressful.

1396
01:56:30,000 --> 01:56:32,541
And I feel like I cannot be here. And,

1397
01:56:32,541 --> 01:56:35,041
you know, I have to do it with my mom and

1398
01:56:35,041 --> 01:56:38,875
and, you know, the people, all of them

1399
01:56:38,875 --> 01:56:40,916
crying, like they, you know, like they

1400
01:56:40,916 --> 01:56:43,500
don't want the project to be closed.

1401
01:56:44,000 --> 01:56:46,416
And they started to see the value of

1402
01:56:46,416 --> 01:56:49,791
working. It's something that they really

1403
01:56:49,791 --> 01:56:51,708
care about. And they say, like, you know,

1404
01:56:52,083 --> 01:56:53,875
it's serving their own communities, like

1405
01:56:53,875 --> 01:56:55,166
the environment they live

1406
01:56:55,166 --> 01:56:56,458
in and things like that.

1407
01:56:57,000 --> 01:56:59,500
And I think that, like, the thing that

1408
01:56:59,500 --> 01:57:02,333
makes me optimistic is that I want more

1409
01:57:02,333 --> 01:57:05,041
young people to be involved. So I guess

1410
01:57:05,041 --> 01:57:07,666
it's one way of how my career could be

1411
01:57:07,666 --> 01:57:11,000
could take some place as well.

1412
01:57:12,000 --> 01:57:13,041
I want to continue to nurture the

1413
01:57:13,041 --> 01:57:15,375
organization. I want to continue higher

1414
01:57:15,375 --> 01:57:20,125
more young people and kind of giving the

1415
01:57:20,125 --> 01:57:21,291
skills that I've received

1416
01:57:21,291 --> 01:57:23,791
from Santa Cruz, from Duke.

1417
01:57:25,625 --> 01:57:27,500
So there are these young people then who

1418
01:57:27,500 --> 01:57:29,375
will take up the leadership opportunities

1419
01:57:29,375 --> 01:57:31,375
later on. So they at some point, probably

1420
01:57:31,375 --> 01:57:32,708
they will not need me anymore.

1421
01:57:34,000 --> 01:57:34,458
And I think that's kind of the thing that

1422
01:57:34,458 --> 01:57:34,583
I think that's really important. So I

1423
01:57:34,583 --> 01:57:37,625
think it will kind of like proliferate

1424
01:57:37,625 --> 01:57:41,916
more, you know, more generations of

1425
01:57:41,916 --> 01:57:43,541
indigenous leaders in the area.

1426
01:57:44,458 --> 01:57:46,416
And there's also the message that my

1427
01:57:46,416 --> 01:57:50,333
professor at Santa Cruz and said, like,

1428
01:57:56,333 --> 01:57:58,916
Germany has done something good to you.

1429
01:58:00,125 --> 01:58:02,791
The way for you to pay for the way for

1430
01:58:02,791 --> 01:58:05,125
you to to pay back is actually to pay

1431
01:58:05,125 --> 01:58:06,375
forward to the next person.

1432
01:58:08,000 --> 01:58:09,791
to say that I think like I've received a

1433
01:58:09,791 --> 01:58:10,833
lot of kindnesses from

1434
01:58:10,833 --> 01:58:12,916
people during my masters

1435
01:58:12,916 --> 01:58:16,583
and even right now during my PhD. I just

1436
01:58:16,583 --> 01:58:17,541
wanted to make sure that

1437
01:58:17,541 --> 01:58:19,791
more generations of Indonesian

1438
01:58:19,875 --> 01:58:23,458
conservationists could also receive that

1439
01:58:23,458 --> 01:58:25,708
through me. Yeah, I can

1440
01:58:25,708 --> 01:58:26,958
open some doors for them.

1441
01:58:27,750 --> 01:58:29,875
And they will do the same to others. So

1442
01:58:29,875 --> 01:58:30,833
once they feel like they

1443
01:58:30,833 --> 01:58:31,875
can give back. So I think

1444
01:58:31,875 --> 01:58:34,000
it's kind of like giving this kind of

1445
01:58:34,000 --> 01:58:36,041
snowball effect. So I

1446
01:58:36,041 --> 01:58:37,208
guess those are the career that

1447
01:58:37,250 --> 01:58:40,458
I kind of envision. Well, that's an

1448
01:58:40,458 --> 01:58:43,041
amazing story. We really

1449
01:58:43,041 --> 01:58:44,541
congratulate you on giving the

1450
01:58:44,541 --> 01:58:46,791
keynote. And we'll definitely have to

1451
01:58:46,791 --> 01:58:48,000
have you back, come back on

1452
01:58:48,000 --> 01:58:49,875
here and see how you're doing.

1453
01:58:50,125 --> 01:58:52,000
You definitely have one of the more

1454
01:58:52,000 --> 01:58:53,833
unique stories of getting

1455
01:58:53,833 --> 01:58:55,166
into the field. Like we kept

1456
01:58:55,166 --> 01:58:56,500
trying to get out and you kept getting

1457
01:58:56,500 --> 01:58:58,875
sucked back in. And so I'm

1458
01:58:58,875 --> 01:58:59,791
going to be training other

1459
01:58:59,791 --> 01:59:02,625
people to be in the field. So we're going

1460
01:59:02,625 --> 01:59:04,875
to have them. We'll have

1461
01:59:04,875 --> 01:59:06,500
our eye on you and trust me,

1462
01:59:06,500 --> 01:59:07,833
you're going to be back here at some

1463
01:59:07,833 --> 01:59:09,750
point. We're sure PhD. We're going to

1464
01:59:09,750 --> 01:59:11,250
want to find out how your

1465
01:59:11,250 --> 01:59:13,375
story continues at that point in time.

1466
01:59:13,375 --> 01:59:15,708
But anyway, thank you very much for

1467
01:59:15,708 --> 01:59:17,875
coming on. And I, I'm

1468
01:59:17,875 --> 01:59:19,125
looking for it. I'll be at it. I'll be at

1469
01:59:19,125 --> 01:59:20,166
sharks international and

1470
01:59:20,166 --> 01:59:21,291
looking forward to meeting you

1471
01:59:21,291 --> 01:59:25,000
in person and catching up and stuff. So

1472
01:59:25,000 --> 01:59:28,416
anyway, thank you very much. Awesome.

1473
01:59:28,666 --> 01:59:29,166
Thank you for being.

1474
01:59:29,833 --> 01:59:31,750
Thank you. Thank you for joining us on

1475
01:59:31,750 --> 01:59:32,666
today's episode of the

1476
01:59:32,666 --> 01:59:34,083
beyond jobs podcast. Dave,

1477
01:59:34,458 --> 01:59:36,333
what did you think about this interview?

1478
01:59:36,833 --> 01:59:37,708
I mean, going from, Hey, I

1479
01:59:37,708 --> 01:59:39,000
want to be a doctor to studying

1480
01:59:39,000 --> 01:59:40,541
mandarays and starting his own

1481
01:59:40,541 --> 01:59:43,250
organization or, you know, where they

1482
01:59:43,250 --> 01:59:45,166
employ 25 people in Indonesia

1483
01:59:45,458 --> 01:59:47,833
about pelagic thrusher sharks. That's a

1484
01:59:47,833 --> 01:59:49,250
pretty cool thing. Yeah, it

1485
01:59:49,250 --> 01:59:50,416
was amazing. He definitely

1486
01:59:50,500 --> 01:59:53,000
had, had a unique journey to get to where

1487
01:59:53,000 --> 01:59:54,875
he's at. You know, going

1488
01:59:54,875 --> 01:59:55,958
from, like I said, his family

1489
01:59:55,958 --> 01:59:57,458
wanting to be going to the medics medical

1490
01:59:57,458 --> 01:59:58,708
field, becoming a doctor

1491
01:59:58,708 --> 01:59:59,666
and stuff. And he wound up

1492
02:00:00,250 --> 02:00:02,750
doing sharks. And of course I had, I had

1493
02:00:02,750 --> 02:00:04,166
to, had to had to chuckle

1494
02:00:04,166 --> 02:00:05,541
because he's another one

1495
02:00:05,541 --> 02:00:07,625
who had Marta who was on here as well.

1496
02:00:07,625 --> 02:00:08,833
Recently, he ended up one of

1497
02:00:08,833 --> 02:00:10,208
his advisors was Don Crowl,

1498
02:00:10,791 --> 02:00:12,041
who of course is a professor at

1499
02:00:12,041 --> 02:00:12,833
University of California,

1500
02:00:12,833 --> 02:00:14,166
Santa Cruz. And Don and I went,

1501
02:00:14,541 --> 02:00:16,208
we did our masters together back at Moss

1502
02:00:16,208 --> 02:00:16,708
landing Marine

1503
02:00:16,708 --> 02:00:18,125
Laboratories back in the day.

1504
02:00:18,583 --> 02:00:19,583
And Don was actually a Marine mammal

1505
02:00:19,583 --> 02:00:21,500
person and he still is, but somehow he's

1506
02:00:21,500 --> 02:00:22,625
dabbled into the whole

1507
02:00:23,000 --> 02:00:25,833
manor a field and stuff. And it was just

1508
02:00:25,833 --> 02:00:27,458
kind of a small world thing. And you

1509
02:00:27,458 --> 02:00:28,541
really, you realize how

1510
02:00:28,541 --> 02:00:30,083
small our field is just in the marine

1511
02:00:30,083 --> 02:00:32,083
sciences. And you realize, you know,

1512
02:00:32,083 --> 02:00:33,000
people you have on there,

1513
02:00:33,000 --> 02:00:34,333
you would think you have no connection

1514
02:00:34,333 --> 02:00:36,208
with someone, you know, in a different

1515
02:00:36,208 --> 02:00:37,250
field. And here they are.

1516
02:00:38,250 --> 02:00:39,875
So, um, Don, if you're listening, if we

1517
02:00:39,875 --> 02:00:41,416
have one more student on here that you

1518
02:00:41,416 --> 02:00:42,500
had, we're gonna have to

1519
02:00:42,500 --> 02:00:43,416
have you on the podcast

1520
02:00:43,416 --> 02:00:46,000
and talk about something, something kind

1521
02:00:46,000 --> 02:00:47,000
of Drick the, and I don't know what

1522
02:00:47,000 --> 02:00:48,708
figure it out. We'll figure it out.

1523
02:00:49,625 --> 02:00:51,666
But yeah, I know, right. Pete had a, had

1524
02:00:51,666 --> 02:00:53,791
a, has a pretty, pretty interesting

1525
02:00:53,791 --> 02:00:54,833
story. And I really hope

1526
02:00:54,833 --> 02:00:56,500
everyone enjoys the thing.

1527
02:00:56,500 --> 02:00:58,541
We'll, we'll come back and

1528
02:00:58,541 --> 02:00:59,458
talk about it afterwards.

1529
02:01:00,000 --> 02:01:02,291
Absolutely. Yeah. No, it was wonderful to

1530
02:01:02,291 --> 02:01:05,500
be able to speak to, to Rafi because, you

1531
02:01:05,500 --> 02:01:07,416
know, such a young, young gentleman

1532
02:01:08,166 --> 02:01:10,041
from living across the world from us

1533
02:01:10,041 --> 02:01:12,208
anyway, coming over to

1534
02:01:12,208 --> 02:01:13,458
the U.S. to continue to do

1535
02:01:14,250 --> 02:01:15,916
some, some different things that, that

1536
02:01:15,916 --> 02:01:17,708
are, you know, part and sometimes part

1537
02:01:17,708 --> 02:01:19,000
and not part of what

1538
02:01:19,000 --> 02:01:20,708
he does at the, at the

1539
02:01:20,708 --> 02:01:21,875
Threshold Sharks International. I think

1540
02:01:21,875 --> 02:01:24,875
it's something, um, it's a, he's a

1541
02:01:24,875 --> 02:01:26,041
co-founder, I should mention, he's not

1542
02:01:26,041 --> 02:01:27,083
the only founder, but he's a co-founder.

1543
02:01:27,291 --> 02:01:29,041
But I think it's something interesting to

1544
02:01:29,041 --> 02:01:30,791
see how he's, you know, they're

1545
02:01:30,791 --> 02:01:31,875
continuing to do these

1546
02:01:31,875 --> 02:01:33,791
things and he's changing the way

1547
02:01:34,250 --> 02:01:36,500
people see sharks in Indonesia. You know,

1548
02:01:36,500 --> 02:01:37,791
I think that's, you know, you look at

1549
02:01:37,791 --> 02:01:38,791
this guy for who, who

1550
02:01:39,375 --> 02:01:41,208
made a, like set out to be a doctor,

1551
02:01:41,208 --> 02:01:43,291
ended up being, and he'll be a doctor at

1552
02:01:43,291 --> 02:01:44,500
some point, just a doctor,

1553
02:01:45,000 --> 02:01:47,375
a philosophy in fish doctor, and

1554
02:01:47,375 --> 02:01:49,458
specializing in sharks. And I think it's,

1555
02:01:49,458 --> 02:01:50,916
it's interesting how you see

1556
02:01:50,916 --> 02:01:54,291
career paths change. You know, I, I

1557
02:01:54,291 --> 02:01:58,000
coach, uh, girls hockey and at the U18

1558
02:01:58,000 --> 02:01:59,000
level. And a lot of

1559
02:01:59,000 --> 02:02:00,791
these girls are going into

1560
02:02:01,375 --> 02:02:03,875
university and they have a set path. And

1561
02:02:03,875 --> 02:02:05,875
I, I, I kind of tell them, I said, just

1562
02:02:05,875 --> 02:02:07,208
be open to every path.

1563
02:02:07,791 --> 02:02:09,458
You know, those who have like a set path

1564
02:02:09,458 --> 02:02:10,583
that they want to go to, I'm like,

1565
02:02:10,958 --> 02:02:13,000
it, it may not be what you, what do you

1566
02:02:13,000 --> 02:02:14,625
expect to be? It might be, but it may not

1567
02:02:14,625 --> 02:02:15,583
be where you end up.

1568
02:02:15,583 --> 02:02:17,875
So just be open to new experiences, to

1569
02:02:17,875 --> 02:02:20,083
new things. Uh, and for those who don't

1570
02:02:20,083 --> 02:02:20,666
know what they're doing,

1571
02:02:20,666 --> 02:02:21,708
I'm like, you're probably in a better

1572
02:02:21,708 --> 02:02:23,750
situation because, you know, you'll be

1573
02:02:23,750 --> 02:02:25,250
able to be a little bit more open-minded

1574
02:02:25,250 --> 02:02:26,541
in what you want to do.

1575
02:02:26,875 --> 02:02:27,541
And, and I think that,

1576
02:02:27,541 --> 02:02:29,291
that is a, is a big thing.

1577
02:02:29,541 --> 02:02:30,958
You know, I went in, you know, marine

1578
02:02:30,958 --> 02:02:31,833
biology, science,

1579
02:02:31,833 --> 02:02:32,666
science, science research.

1580
02:02:32,833 --> 02:02:33,958
I thought I was going to be out in the

1581
02:02:33,958 --> 02:02:34,583
field all the time and

1582
02:02:34,583 --> 02:02:35,875
all that. And I did do that.

1583
02:02:36,375 --> 02:02:38,000
Now I ended up in comms, you know, it's,

1584
02:02:38,000 --> 02:02:39,791
it's not like a slight shift, but still a

1585
02:02:39,791 --> 02:02:41,250
shift in terms of how you

1586
02:02:41,250 --> 02:02:43,250
approach, uh, work-wise,

1587
02:02:43,458 --> 02:02:45,083
uh, you know, how, what, what you're

1588
02:02:45,083 --> 02:02:45,916
doing on a day-to-day

1589
02:02:45,916 --> 02:02:47,375
experience, all that kind of stuff.

1590
02:02:47,375 --> 02:02:49,416
So, um, and that shifts more towards what

1591
02:02:49,416 --> 02:02:51,583
I like. And, and so you just never know

1592
02:02:51,583 --> 02:02:52,875
what you're going to do.

1593
02:02:52,958 --> 02:02:55,500
Uh, Raffid is, is a perfect example of

1594
02:02:55,500 --> 02:02:58,000
that. And he's done a pretty good job.

1595
02:02:58,000 --> 02:03:00,291
Uh, not that I wouldn't say he would have

1596
02:03:00,291 --> 02:03:01,333
been, he wouldn't have been a great

1597
02:03:01,333 --> 02:03:02,500
doctor, but he's done a

1598
02:03:02,500 --> 02:03:04,041
pretty good job so far

1599
02:03:04,416 --> 02:03:06,833
of, of leading this, this new generation

1600
02:03:06,833 --> 02:03:08,083
in terms of what he's

1601
02:03:08,083 --> 02:03:09,416
been able to accomplish for

1602
02:03:09,791 --> 02:03:11,625
the shark species. So I, I appreciate

1603
02:03:11,625 --> 02:03:12,708
what he's done. It was, it

1604
02:03:12,708 --> 02:03:14,291
was really great to know, uh,

1605
02:03:14,291 --> 02:03:15,708
Raffid and, and we're looking forward to

1606
02:03:15,708 --> 02:03:17,291
having him back on to see what else he's

1607
02:03:17,291 --> 02:03:18,791
up to throughout, throughout his career.

1608
02:03:19,333 --> 02:03:22,125
So, um, so yeah, uh, with that, we, uh,

1609
02:03:22,125 --> 02:03:23,791
we'll send you guys off. We want to thank

1610
02:03:23,791 --> 02:03:24,958
you guys for joining us.

1611
02:03:25,208 --> 02:03:28,083
And if you have a great story or you just

1612
02:03:28,083 --> 02:03:30,000
want to listen to more stories, uh, and

1613
02:03:30,000 --> 02:03:31,375
get in contact with us, Dave,

1614
02:03:31,375 --> 02:03:32,625
how do they get in contact with you?

1615
02:03:32,875 --> 02:03:35,125
Uh, lost shark guy on Instagram, uh,

1616
02:03:35,125 --> 02:03:36,833
Facebook, or just to go through the

1617
02:03:36,833 --> 02:03:39,625
beyond jaws, uh, YouTube channel or one

1618
02:03:39,625 --> 02:03:40,875
of the podcast things and just

1619
02:03:41,291 --> 02:03:43,250
catch it and get ahold of me there. Also

1620
02:03:43,250 --> 02:03:45,708
San Jose state university, uh, Moss

1621
02:03:45,708 --> 02:03:46,583
landing marine laboratories.

1622
02:03:47,291 --> 02:03:49,000
Perfect. And if people want to get ahold

1623
02:03:49,000 --> 02:03:50,750
of like the podcast in general, we're

1624
02:03:50,750 --> 02:03:52,125
both on it at beyond

1625
02:03:52,125 --> 02:03:53,833
jaws pod, uh, for Instagram.

1626
02:03:54,166 --> 02:03:55,625
And, uh, that's it for today's episode.

1627
02:03:55,958 --> 02:03:57,041
Thanks again to Raffid

1628
02:03:57,041 --> 02:03:58,208
for sharing his story.

1629
02:03:58,833 --> 02:04:00,041
Uh, and we want to thank you guys. If you

1630
02:04:00,041 --> 02:04:01,291
have any questions or comments, let us

1631
02:04:01,291 --> 02:04:02,500
know in the YouTube

1632
02:04:02,500 --> 02:04:04,541
comments below, uh, or, uh,

1633
02:04:04,541 --> 02:04:06,208
you can just get in touch with, as we

1634
02:04:06,208 --> 02:04:08,000
said, and, uh, and of course, don't

1635
02:04:08,000 --> 02:04:10,458
forget to subscribe on YouTube, follow on

1636
02:04:10,458 --> 02:04:11,375
your favorite podcast app.

1637
02:04:11,666 --> 02:04:12,750
And we want to thank you so much for

1638
02:04:12,750 --> 02:04:14,625
joining us on today's episode of the

1639
02:04:14,625 --> 02:04:15,625
beyond jaws podcast from

1640
02:04:15,625 --> 02:04:16,791
Dave and I have a great day.

1641
02:04:16,791 --> 02:04:17,416
We'll talk to you next

1642
02:04:17,416 --> 02:04:18,625
time and happy conservation.