Aug. 19, 2026
The Gerard Barron Pattern: Why a CEO Who Watched One Deep-Sea Mining Company Collapse Is Trying Again
Why would someone who watched one deep-sea mining company collapse go back and try it again? That's the question at the center of this episode, and it's not hypothetical. It happened, with the same industry, some of the same licenses, and the same person at the center of it: Gerard Barron, now CEO of The Metals Company (TMC), one of the most prominent and best-funded companies pushing to start commercial deep-sea mining today. This isn't framed as an accusation against Barron specifically. It's a documented sequence of decisions, and by the end, you can decide for yourself what the motive looks like.
Before TMC, Barron was an early investor and promoter behind Nautilus Minerals, a company that pursued seafloor mineral deposits off Papua New Guinea. Nautilus raised hundreds of millions of dollars, including investment from the PNG government itself, before its costs spiraled, it was delisted from the Toronto Stock Exchange, and it filed for bankruptcy in 2019. Barron reportedly sold his shares years before the collapse, walking away with a return as high as $30 million, while PNG's government and environment were left holding the damage. Years later, people connected to Nautilus, including Barron, regrouped as Deep Green, which became The Metals Company, and picked up exploration rights in the Clarion Clipperton Zone that had once belonged to Nautilus.
This episode traces that arc from Adstream to Nautilus to TMC, including TMC's push to trigger the ISA's two-year rule, its more recent pursuit of a US mining permit outside the International Seabed Authority process entirely, and Barron's consistent argument that mining the seabed is less environmentally damaging than mining on land. Whether that comparison holds up, and what it means that the environmental cost of Nautilus's failure barely factors into how Barron talks about it now, is the thread running through the whole story.
Takeaways
- Gerard Barron, now CEO of The Metals Company (TMC), was an early investor and promoter (not CEO) behind an earlier deep-sea mining venture, Nautilus Minerals, which went bankrupt in 2019.
- Nautilus's projected operating costs of about $70 per ton reportedly grew to about $192 per ton, contributing to its delisting from the Toronto Stock Exchange and eventual bankruptcy.
- Papua New Guinea's government invested in Nautilus and, according to the country's prime minister, the country spent roughly 300 million Kina (about $72 million USD) on a project later called a "total failure."
- Barron sold his Nautilus shares years before the company's collapse, reportedly for as much as $30 million, while PNG's government was still invested.
- TMC, which Barron now leads, is pursuing a US permitting path through NOAA and the Trump administration, outside the ISA process.
- Long-term recovery data on deep-sea mining damage remains limited; some studies cited in the episode indicate no biodiversity recovery three to four years after mining activity occurred.
- Barron has publicly compared seabed mining favorably to land-based mining, but a specific biomass figure he's cited in at least one interview is disputed in this episode as inaccurate.
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Transcript
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Why would someone who watched one
company collapse after destroying the
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sea floor go back and try it again?
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Like, this is not just a hypothetical.
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This actually happened with the
same people, the same industry,
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and some of the same licenses.
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And the story that you're gonna hear on
this episode of the How to Protect the
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Ocean podcast, it's not really, like, an
accusation on this particular individual.
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It's really just a documented
sequence of decisions.
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And by the end, you can
decide for yourself whether
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what that motive looks like.
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Cause a lot of the times when we hear
this type of story, the story of a CEO
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who is working in natural resources, where
they're exploiting natural resources.
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There's one thing of having it as
natural resource that we've exploited
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in the past, but when they go into a new
domain, and we really don't understand
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the ramifications that are gonna happen
in this domain from this activity,
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it really begs the question of, why
the heck are we really doing this?
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Is it really just for the money?
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Is this just something, like, a
business person kinda looked at?
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So, what I wanna do today is I wanna look
at what I call the Gerard Barron pattern.
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And so essentially what this
is, is you have this person
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who is a business guy, right?
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He's a business person, and he
wants to have business and develop
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businesses, and maybe go into new
frontiers and do something that would
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help his legacy or help their legacy.
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I'm not just saying it's a
man, it could be a woman, too.
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And we see a lot of these people who
wanna be CEOs, who wanna do something
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bold and something really cool.
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But at the end of the day, who
is it really supporting?
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Who is it really helping?
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And so that's what we're gonna talk about
in today's episode of the How to Protect
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the Ocean podcast, your source for ocean
news, updates on science and conservation
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from Monday to Fridays every weekday.
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So, if you like this kinda stuff that
we're doing, I'm trying something, like,
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a new storytelling thing this week.
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So if you've been with me for a while
and you haven't followed, you can
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follow right now if you like this stuff.
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And of course, you can let me know.
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Just hit me up on my socials.
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The links are in the show notes,
'cause I'd love to hear your thoughts
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on this new type of, storytelling,
I guess, is what we're really doing.
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Anyway, let's get into it, right?
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'Cause wanna know just
why this really matters.
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Let's talk about the person
that we're gonna talk about.
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It's Gerard Barron, who is
the CEO of The Metals Company.
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Probably one of the most prominent and
best-funded companies pushing to start
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commercial deep-sea mining right now.
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Now, TMC, so The Metals Company also known
as TMC, is the company that triggered the
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two-year rule at the International Seabed
Authority through its partner nation,
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Nauru, forcing the pace on mining
regulations before the science was ready.
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They did this a few years ago.
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It really accelerated and panicked
a lot of people when they started
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to do this, because I remember
covering, you know, talking to people
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who went to the ISA meetings, and
these are done in Kingston, Jamaica.
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And it got to a point where
they were putting scientists
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and NGOs in different rooms.
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So it made it a lot more
difficult for them to discuss
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with member nations, especially
if member nations had questions.
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So we had experts like Dr. Diva Amon,
who were, like, in separate rooms.
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She's a deep-sea scientist,
deep-sea ecologist.
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She's the one that you should be going
to, being like, "Hey, if we decide to
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do this, what would be the consequences?
Like, can we do this? Can we not do
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this?" And they were in different
rooms, so it made it really difficult
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for them to have that kind of connection.
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So TMC was responsible for doing this.
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They have been the one
pushing for this stuff.
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And I should mention again, according to
the, like, this is the idea of the story,
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that when TMC pushed that two-year rule,
all of a sudden their stock went up.
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And the CEO, Gerard Barron,
made millions off of it.
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So, like, all of this is all
related to this story and to the
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sort of motive of what is really
the motive of some of these CEOs.
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Now, TMC is also the company that
has pursued the unilateral path
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through the Trump administration
and NOAA to get a mining permit
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outside of the ISA process entirely.
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Now, the US is not part of
the UNCLOS, which is the UN
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Convention of the Law of the Sea.
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They're not ratified, I guess.
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They're not signed onto it.
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They can't be a part of the International
Seabed Authority, member committee
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meetings and things like that.
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But they can pursue their
own deep sea mining path in
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their exclusive economic zone.
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So whatever happens with deep sea
mining over the next few years
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in the Clarion-Clipperton Zone
specifically, largely runs through
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this one company and this one CEO.
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And recently, like just as a couple
of days ago as of recording this
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podcast, the US issued another
leasing license, or the announcement
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that they're gonna be issuing another
leasing license just outside the
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CNMI, so the, Northern Mariana Islands.
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And it's like a 69 million acre area.
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And this is all pushed on by
this CEO, by Gerard Barron.
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This is where it all begins.
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Like, this is where we're at right now.
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We're at this precipice of going
into a new frontier and doing
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something new, a frontier that
we don't really know much about.
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We haven't surveyed, we haven't
mapped a lot of the areas.
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We know specific areas, and we know that
there has been damage done by deep sea
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mining through, like, this research thing.
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We know that there are studies that show
that for three or four years after deep
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sea mining has occurred, the biodiversity
that was affected did not recover.
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So we know there's not a quick
recovery to deep sea mining
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when this damage has been done.
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The question is, really
is, do people care?
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Because it seems like people like Gerard
Barron are gonna continue to pursue
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this dream to be able to go there.
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But to understand sort of like the
mind of a CEO such as Gerard Barron,
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we have to go back to his story.
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So he started off as an ad tech
business CEO, Adstream, which
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was founded in Sydney in 2000
by three others, Brett Sullivan,
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Julian Chow, and James Carpenter.
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It was basically to solve the
delivery of TV commercials and
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ad materials to broadcasters.
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So as the digital age was coming in, this
was something that was really important.
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So Barron became the CEO once the company
needed investment and formal leadership
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with a holding company formalized in 2001,
which is the date of most of his official
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bios point and as to when he founded it.
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He was the CEO, but
did he really found it?
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Apparently there's a bit of
controversy around there.
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Now, under Barron, the Adstream
grew from a single office in Sydney
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to more than 40 offices in 30
countries, eventually pulling in
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over $100 million a year in revenue.
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Now, he ran it as a CEO
until December 2013.
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And so, like, he wasn't a
mining person before this.
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He was a business person.
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He was going into ad revenue.
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That he was providing digital ads to TV
shows and programs and things like that.
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Nothing this crazy, but he
was definitely into technology,
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but in the advertising space.
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He was an advertising exec.
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So he was like the mad men of the
'50s, but he was in the 2000s, right?
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So it's obviously a lucrative deal.
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He did very well in growing the company,
whether it's all of him or the people
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that were under him, who knows, right?
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But, you know, when you're a CEO, you're
the one who gets the credit for all this
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that's happening and good on him for being
able to grow that company to that amount.
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Now, his friend David Hayden, a
geologist he knew through tennis,
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pitched him on a new venture.
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An underwater mining company called
Nautilus Minerals around the same time
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Adstream was getting off the ground.
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So this is around 2001.
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He said it pretty plainly in his own words
to NPR, that he knew very little about
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the ocean and very little about mining.
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But he was curious.
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It was a new frontier.
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In a separate interview, he
described being fascinated to learn
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that the ocean is full of metal.
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Not the ocean is teeming with
life, the ocean is full of metal.
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And that it seemed like an interesting
project, despite knowing nothing
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about mining and never having
invested in a mining company before.
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So this is completely new.
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It's a big challenge for him.
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Doesn't know much about the ocean,
intrigued that there's metal.
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This is something that's
really interesting.
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Now, years later, reflecting on that
decision at a mining conference, he
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said he was fascinated by the new
ideas and probably knew too little
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to be scared of the challenges.
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So if he had gone back again,
maybe he wouldn't have done it.
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But he did put in his own money and
helped round up other investors.
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So, you're looking at a guy from Adstream,
gets presented with this deal to invest
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in this company called Nautilus Minerals.
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And so he has this area.
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And so it's not as if he's been
intrigued by the ocean, intrigued
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by the metal all of his life.
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He comes from ad tech businesses, grows
that really well and now into a new
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challenge and be like, "Hey, I don't know
much about the ocean, so I'm probably not
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scared enough to really understand how
difficult it is to do deep sea mining."
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So I think, he's someone who didn't
really understand business risks.
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He put in a lot of his own money, and
he got investors to do it as well.
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So, you know, he's very
good at bringing in money.
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He's a very good CEO, he's a
very good business person in
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convincing people to bring in.
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And he's consistently told the
same story across, interviews
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at, like, spanning years.
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So it's not as if he switches his story.
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Like, he just knows what he went
through and how he felt, and he's
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sticking to those type stories.
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Well, now whether that happened
exactly, I have no idea.
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I don't wanna, like, put words
into his mouth, but this is what
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he's been saying over the years.
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Now, Nautilus went after
underwater mineral deposits
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called seafloor massive sulfides.
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So off the coast of Papua New Guinea,
rich in copper, gold, silver, and zinc.
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And the company eventually raised
hundreds of millions of dollars
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from investors, including the
government of Papua New Guinea itself.
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And this is really
important to understand.
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Now, Barron sold his shares and
exited, walking away, a return
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reported as high as $30 million
on his own original investment.
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So made money.
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As a business person, this
guy made a boatload of money.
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He started early, left early,
before anything could really be
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done, got the government of Papua
New Guinea itself to invest in it.
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And a lot of times the CEO is that,
is the mouthpiece, is the messenger.
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They're the person who you
look to for the success.
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He's had a successful ad tech business.
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He's getting into this.
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He's got a lot of investors, including
a government who probably doesn't have
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a lot of money, like in developing
countries like Papua New Guinea, but
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they're invested in what he talked about.
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Sold his shares, made
a reported 30 million.
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This is interesting 'cause it's like the
first time, like he got into like deep
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sea mining, got out, made a ton of money.
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This was good.
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Didn't even mine anything at
this point, like commercially.
203
00:09:49,124 --> 00:09:51,014
They may have done some little
research here and there, but didn't
204
00:09:51,014 --> 00:09:52,214
even mine anything commercially.
205
00:09:52,628 --> 00:09:55,398
But he got out before anything
could have gone wrong.
206
00:09:55,853 --> 00:09:56,853
That's where the key comes in.
207
00:09:56,863 --> 00:09:59,443
Now, Barron was never
Nautilus' CEO or manager.
208
00:09:59,443 --> 00:10:03,070
He was an early investor and a promoter
who helped raise the money, while
209
00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,690
David Hayden served as the company's
actual CEO, his friend who originally
210
00:10:06,690 --> 00:10:09,070
presented the idea from 2002 to 2008.
211
00:10:09,670 --> 00:10:12,620
Now, by Barron's own account, he
had largely sold out of his position
212
00:10:12,620 --> 00:10:14,870
by the time Papua New Guinea
government invested in the project.
213
00:10:14,870 --> 00:10:17,430
So it's not as if he convinced
it in there well over a decade
214
00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,893
before this company went bankrupt.
215
00:10:20,420 --> 00:10:23,280
Now, Barron himself has named
three reasons for the collapse.
216
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,730
So he talked about the wrong technology
for the job, the difficulty in operating
217
00:10:27,730 --> 00:10:31,590
and developing in a nation like Papua
New Guinea, and simply never finding as
218
00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,030
much of the target resource as expected.
219
00:10:34,540 --> 00:10:38,436
So really everything that could have gone
wrong went wrong, but it's a new company.
220
00:10:38,746 --> 00:10:39,596
It's something that's new.
221
00:10:39,596 --> 00:10:42,076
Deep sea mining hasn't really
been done that much before.
222
00:10:42,846 --> 00:10:45,966
Now, independent reporting adds
financial detail to this whole thing.
223
00:10:46,146 --> 00:10:50,700
Nautilus originally projected operating
costs of about $70 per ton, but those
224
00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:55,860
costs spiraled into $192 per ton, which
triggered its delisting from the Toronto
225
00:10:55,860 --> 00:10:59,386
Stock Exchange here in Canada, and
its filing for creditor protection.
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00:10:59,886 --> 00:11:02,676
So it couldn't really make the
money that it really wanted.
227
00:11:02,793 --> 00:11:05,423
And then, of course, Papua New Guinea's
own prime minister said the country
228
00:11:05,433 --> 00:11:09,613
burned through nearly 300 million
kina, which is their money, which is
229
00:11:09,653 --> 00:11:14,326
equivalent to about $72 million US,
calling the project a total failure.
230
00:11:14,723 --> 00:11:17,193
Now, on the operational side, a
shipyard building the company's
231
00:11:17,193 --> 00:11:20,783
specialized support vessel canceled
the contract after Nautilus failed
232
00:11:20,783 --> 00:11:22,673
to pay an $18 million installment.
233
00:11:23,133 --> 00:11:24,423
So that's another thing that went wrong.
234
00:11:24,453 --> 00:11:26,533
So not only did they leave the
government hanging, they left the
235
00:11:26,533 --> 00:11:27,873
shipyard who was building the ship.
236
00:11:28,373 --> 00:11:31,523
And Nautilus filed for bankruptcy
protection in a Canadian court in
237
00:11:31,523 --> 00:11:35,073
February 2019, failed to find a
buyer during the restructuring, and
238
00:11:35,073 --> 00:11:37,083
was fully liquidated by that August.
239
00:11:37,570 --> 00:11:41,470
Now, along the way, the project
destroyed sensitive seabed habitat
240
00:11:41,470 --> 00:11:42,810
in Papua New Guinea's waters.
241
00:11:43,253 --> 00:11:46,073
Now, the government's which had invested
heavily in the project, was left
242
00:11:46,073 --> 00:11:49,653
facing not only a debt equivalent of
roughly a third of the country's annual
243
00:11:49,653 --> 00:11:52,570
health budget, but also, part of the
environment that was destroyed of what
244
00:11:52,570 --> 00:11:53,910
they were trying to bring together.
245
00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:57,592
So right now, if you really look at it,
the business people have learned that if
246
00:11:57,592 --> 00:12:01,296
you create a company and you talk about
mining in a new frontier, the deep sea,
247
00:12:01,492 --> 00:12:03,202
you can get a lot of interest from people.
248
00:12:03,252 --> 00:12:06,072
People who may not understand the ocean,
business people who may not understand the
249
00:12:06,072 --> 00:12:09,232
ocean, but have the money to invest large
sums of money, like, tens of millions
250
00:12:09,232 --> 00:12:10,802
of dollars to put things together.
251
00:12:11,422 --> 00:12:15,072
And as a business person, if you get
out at the right time, or an investor,
252
00:12:15,189 --> 00:12:17,529
if you get out at the right time,
you can make your money because of
253
00:12:17,539 --> 00:12:19,359
all, just the excitement of it all.
254
00:12:19,359 --> 00:12:22,459
Everybody's putting in money, putting
in money, so your stock goes up.
255
00:12:22,459 --> 00:12:25,119
And I'm not an economist, I don't
understand all that, but I know your
256
00:12:25,119 --> 00:12:27,339
stock goes up to the point where
Barron's is like, "Hey, you know what?
257
00:12:27,349 --> 00:12:27,979
I'm gonna get out.
258
00:12:28,206 --> 00:12:31,336
I got $30 million now compared
to my initial investment.
259
00:12:31,466 --> 00:12:34,364
Like, that's pretty cool." Right
now, this entire company, everybody
260
00:12:34,474 --> 00:12:35,334
who was involved, not just Baron.
261
00:12:35,334 --> 00:12:37,774
Baron got out before really
all the damages was done.
262
00:12:38,031 --> 00:12:42,141
But, you look at what this company did,
caused damage and took out a lot of the
263
00:12:42,141 --> 00:12:44,921
money from Papua New Guinea's government,
which probably didn't have the money to
264
00:12:44,921 --> 00:12:48,481
really burn through like that, just in
general because it's a developing country
265
00:12:48,481 --> 00:12:50,551
and its people need other things, right?
266
00:12:50,551 --> 00:12:52,331
But they, took a chance and they lost.
267
00:12:52,784 --> 00:12:56,154
So Pacific Nation invested public
money and got left holding both the
268
00:12:56,154 --> 00:12:57,684
financial and environmental damage.
269
00:12:57,684 --> 00:12:59,398
But some of the business
people made money.
270
00:12:59,871 --> 00:13:00,951
This is what really happened.
271
00:13:01,534 --> 00:13:05,571
Now, in 2011, so people connected to
Nautilus, including Hayden, started
272
00:13:05,571 --> 00:13:07,021
a new company called DeepGreen.
273
00:13:07,501 --> 00:13:11,831
Now, Baron became involved early, then
took over as chairman and CEO in 2018.
274
00:13:11,831 --> 00:13:13,551
So we advanced almost 10 years.
275
00:13:13,801 --> 00:13:16,641
Now, DeepGreen eventually became
the Metals Company, which is
276
00:13:16,641 --> 00:13:19,571
also known as TMZ, which we
know now is still active today.
277
00:13:20,134 --> 00:13:24,424
Now, TMC's exploring license in the
Clarion-Clipperton Zone once belonged to
278
00:13:24,424 --> 00:13:27,144
Nautilus, so it got taken over by TMC.
279
00:13:27,608 --> 00:13:29,018
So this is look- looks like a deja vu.
280
00:13:29,068 --> 00:13:31,598
You get the both people who were
initially involved in Nautilus.
281
00:13:31,598 --> 00:13:35,054
You got Hayden and Baron
both involved together again.
282
00:13:35,394 --> 00:13:36,224
Baron made money.
283
00:13:36,274 --> 00:13:40,084
I don't know exactly how Hayden kinda
left after Nautilus, but they made money.
284
00:13:40,424 --> 00:13:44,024
And now they're taking over the
leases that Nautilus had into an
285
00:13:44,034 --> 00:13:46,661
area called the Clarion- Clipperton
Zone, which is in the Pacific.
286
00:13:46,671 --> 00:13:49,651
It's a deep sea area that's known
to have minerals, like these
287
00:13:49,651 --> 00:13:51,361
critical minerals for batteries.
288
00:13:51,361 --> 00:13:54,101
Like, you gotta remember, this is
all for, and especially now, EVs
289
00:13:54,111 --> 00:13:55,551
are really starting to catch on.
290
00:13:55,924 --> 00:13:57,564
The batteries need critical minerals.
291
00:13:57,574 --> 00:14:00,434
Not only do the EVs need it, but
they also, like phones and everything
292
00:14:00,434 --> 00:14:01,554
like that, we need critical minerals.
293
00:14:01,787 --> 00:14:06,407
There are reports and videos of
people in the Congo who are actively
294
00:14:06,417 --> 00:14:10,147
mining, open-pit mining for these
minerals that are going through
295
00:14:10,207 --> 00:14:13,244
awful human rights crimes and
they're being treated like crap.
296
00:14:13,244 --> 00:14:15,224
They're dying, and there are kids
that are in there and all that.
297
00:14:15,224 --> 00:14:15,964
It's awful.
298
00:14:16,181 --> 00:14:19,271
So you have this, this area where
it's like we're not harming anybody,
299
00:14:19,361 --> 00:14:20,921
like from a human rights perspective.
300
00:14:21,277 --> 00:14:22,067
Now we can see.
301
00:14:22,487 --> 00:14:24,777
We've already been through it, and
then from a business perspective,
302
00:14:24,777 --> 00:14:27,597
we've made a lot of money from
it, or at least Baron has.
303
00:14:27,901 --> 00:14:30,681
And so, hey, why don't we
just try and take this again?
304
00:14:30,691 --> 00:14:31,421
We have a lease.
305
00:14:31,461 --> 00:14:32,021
We can do it.
306
00:14:32,587 --> 00:14:35,834
Now going back on Nautilus, Barron
said publicly that he and his
307
00:14:35,834 --> 00:14:38,394
colleagues are not ashamed of
what happened with Nautilus, even
308
00:14:38,394 --> 00:14:41,364
though they left the government
hanging and the environment damaged.
309
00:14:41,581 --> 00:14:44,641
He comparing themselves to pioneers
who end up with arrows in the back,
310
00:14:44,641 --> 00:14:48,111
and arguing that without Nautilus,
the wider deep sea mining industry
311
00:14:48,111 --> 00:14:49,381
would never have gotten started.
312
00:14:49,381 --> 00:14:50,581
And that's probably true.
313
00:14:50,931 --> 00:14:52,991
Like, they're probably
pioneers in that area, but they
314
00:14:52,991 --> 00:14:54,611
haven't shown that it worked.
315
00:14:55,104 --> 00:14:56,324
They didn't have the right equipment.
316
00:14:56,704 --> 00:14:59,034
It wasn't the right materials
that they were going after.
317
00:14:59,427 --> 00:15:02,557
And they eventually, they just couldn't do
it with the equipment that they had, and
318
00:15:02,557 --> 00:15:04,057
they couldn't make it financially viable.
319
00:15:04,517 --> 00:15:07,387
The mistakes he names are technical
and financial, not environmental.
320
00:15:07,387 --> 00:15:10,377
He never mentioned the environment, never
mentioned the damage of the environment.
321
00:15:10,614 --> 00:15:13,774
He specifically criticizes
equipment Nautilus used on the sea
322
00:15:13,774 --> 00:15:15,114
floor, like I mentioned before.
323
00:15:15,348 --> 00:15:18,967
Calling those machines big, angry
rock grabbers that filled him with
324
00:15:18,967 --> 00:15:23,311
horror, and contrast that with the
nodule collection machine TMC uses
325
00:15:23,321 --> 00:15:25,497
now, which he calls gentle giants.
326
00:15:25,507 --> 00:15:26,787
Now, these are still machines.
327
00:15:26,787 --> 00:15:29,277
These are still things that are gonna be
grabbing things, and they're gonna get
328
00:15:29,277 --> 00:15:32,567
into the sand, they're gonna get into the
bottom, and they're gonna muck it all up.
329
00:15:33,007 --> 00:15:36,157
Now, he frames the location as part
of the problem, too, in Papua New
330
00:15:36,167 --> 00:15:39,117
Guinea, noting that the challenge
of operating in a developing nation
331
00:15:39,117 --> 00:15:42,137
like Papua New Guinea says that he
had largely sold out of the project
332
00:15:42,137 --> 00:15:44,951
by the time the government invested,
but didn't really tell the government
333
00:15:44,971 --> 00:15:47,111
that he was sold out, that I know of,
334
00:15:47,457 --> 00:15:48,707
Cause they bought in huge.
335
00:15:48,987 --> 00:15:50,487
To a third of what they could have.
336
00:15:51,101 --> 00:15:55,157
So again, no regret on his part
from the environmental aspect.
337
00:15:55,337 --> 00:15:59,237
Made a ton of money from that project,
and is ready to do it again because he
338
00:15:59,237 --> 00:16:01,374
thinks now they're in a different zone.
339
00:16:01,828 --> 00:16:05,547
It's in the high seas, so it's not tied to
a specific country, let alone a developing
340
00:16:05,547 --> 00:16:07,187
country, so don't have to deal with those.
341
00:16:07,674 --> 00:16:11,021
And he says he's got better vehicles
now, and he can do it better.
342
00:16:11,501 --> 00:16:13,651
But again, not talking
about the environment.
343
00:16:13,661 --> 00:16:16,661
More talking about the business and
the sustainability economically.
344
00:16:17,034 --> 00:16:19,861
So the regret's more about the geography
and equipment, not the environment.
345
00:16:20,284 --> 00:16:23,747
Now, across multiple interviews
spanning years, Barron has not expressed
346
00:16:23,787 --> 00:16:27,007
uncertainty or worry about whether
deep sea mining itself harms the ocean,
347
00:16:27,007 --> 00:16:28,957
which a lot of people are talking about.
348
00:16:29,431 --> 00:16:31,661
And his consistent argument
is a comparison one.
349
00:16:31,661 --> 00:16:34,611
He said that mining the seabed
is less environmentally damaged
350
00:16:34,611 --> 00:16:36,084
than mining on land, right?
351
00:16:36,084 --> 00:16:39,644
In the BBC interview, he described
the Clarion-Clipperton Zone as having
352
00:16:39,654 --> 00:16:43,951
essentially zero plant life and only
about 10 grams of biomass per square
353
00:16:43,951 --> 00:16:47,711
meter, compared to the far higher
biomass equatorial rainforest, where
354
00:16:47,711 --> 00:16:49,431
land-based nickel mining happens.
355
00:16:49,857 --> 00:16:52,947
So when Greenpeace published a report
critical of the deep sea mining industry,
356
00:16:52,967 --> 00:16:55,797
TMC's response was that Greenpeace
had fundamentally misunderstood the
357
00:16:55,797 --> 00:16:58,137
industry, not that the concerns had merit.
358
00:16:58,494 --> 00:17:01,154
And by the way, the 10 grams
of biomass per square meter,
359
00:17:01,294 --> 00:17:02,414
it wasn't even close to that.
360
00:17:02,914 --> 00:17:03,814
It was a lot higher.
361
00:17:04,377 --> 00:17:09,437
Again, so looking at the character of
the CEO, not just Barron, but a CEO
362
00:17:09,447 --> 00:17:11,461
looking at, " Hey, I have this industry.
363
00:17:11,481 --> 00:17:13,351
I made a ton of money last time.
364
00:17:13,741 --> 00:17:17,231
I'm gonna go into it again, even
though it didn't survive, and 'cause
365
00:17:17,231 --> 00:17:18,881
I think I can do it better this time.
366
00:17:18,881 --> 00:17:20,971
We don't have to worry about the
country, the geography, we don't
367
00:17:20,971 --> 00:17:23,461
have to worry about the equipment,"
according to him, according to the
368
00:17:23,461 --> 00:17:28,997
CEO, But he never is really concerned
about this desert of a deep sea, and
369
00:17:28,997 --> 00:17:32,754
it's better than mining in a rainforest
that it was done in the Congo.
370
00:17:33,234 --> 00:17:35,817
We're still looking at,
is it really equitable?
371
00:17:35,817 --> 00:17:36,567
I don't know.
372
00:17:36,917 --> 00:17:40,848
But obviously there's the extra added
like human rights offenses that happened
373
00:17:40,858 --> 00:17:43,907
in a lot of these mines in Africa
and the Congo where this happens.
374
00:17:44,194 --> 00:17:47,634
Again, you're looking at a business
person who wants business, who
375
00:17:47,644 --> 00:17:50,604
wants this to survive so he
can make a boat ton of money.
376
00:17:51,238 --> 00:17:54,488
Now, the Wall Street Journal
summarized the arc, this way
377
00:17:54,488 --> 00:17:55,618
when the TMZ went public.
378
00:17:55,858 --> 00:17:58,648
The company Baron backed for the
first time lost half a billion
379
00:17:58,648 --> 00:18:02,398
dollars, got crosswise with the
South Pacific government, destroyed
380
00:18:02,398 --> 00:18:06,168
sensitive seabed habitat, and
went broke, and now he's trying it
381
00:18:06,168 --> 00:18:07,965
again because he made $30 million.
382
00:18:07,965 --> 00:18:11,641
The company lost half a billion,
but he made $30 million.
383
00:18:12,675 --> 00:18:16,931
Again, it's just like this came like
a mainstream financial publication.
384
00:18:17,431 --> 00:18:19,348
It's not just like an
environmentalist here.
385
00:18:19,348 --> 00:18:22,758
it's something like a publication
that looks at like finances.
386
00:18:22,788 --> 00:18:23,618
That's what they look at.
387
00:18:24,115 --> 00:18:29,055
And I think when we look at how this
is pursued, , if you take the Gerard
388
00:18:29,065 --> 00:18:33,375
Baron pattern and you kind of blow it
up a little bit and you look around to
389
00:18:33,455 --> 00:18:38,018
other natural resource companies or even
other companies, the people involved
390
00:18:38,028 --> 00:18:40,408
a lot of the time see the process.
391
00:18:40,468 --> 00:18:42,368
You know, they see the operations.
392
00:18:42,655 --> 00:18:47,145
They don't necessarily see ahead of
the damage that they could cause.
393
00:18:47,671 --> 00:18:50,071
We're looking at a new
frontier in the deep sea that
394
00:18:50,071 --> 00:18:51,561
we don't know anything about.
395
00:18:52,061 --> 00:18:55,511
We're looking at doing something
that could damage something that
396
00:18:55,511 --> 00:18:58,941
could really mess up our planet if
we knew what we were messing up.
397
00:18:59,391 --> 00:19:02,431
We saw damage done off the
coast of Papua New Guinea.
398
00:19:02,442 --> 00:19:05,991
We saw studies saying that the
recovery is not four years.
399
00:19:05,991 --> 00:19:07,041
It's longer than that.
400
00:19:07,041 --> 00:19:07,941
We don't know how much.
401
00:19:07,941 --> 00:19:11,461
But we've also seen studies in the deep
sea that I covered yesterday where
402
00:19:11,461 --> 00:19:14,365
we look at seamount trawling and,
you know, you're looking at destroying
403
00:19:14,375 --> 00:19:17,905
habitat that took centuries to create
because they're such slow-growing
404
00:19:17,905 --> 00:19:19,745
species that create this habitat.
405
00:19:20,155 --> 00:19:21,435
What if that happens down there?
406
00:19:21,435 --> 00:19:25,475
We will never be able to know the
loss of any kind of endemic species
407
00:19:25,485 --> 00:19:30,831
that could be beneficial to the human
species later on in life as we start
408
00:19:30,831 --> 00:19:33,721
to discover more about the ocean.
409
00:19:33,871 --> 00:19:36,118
You see, Scripps, Oceanog-
Institute of Oceanography.
410
00:19:36,118 --> 00:19:37,588
You see Nautilus Live.
411
00:19:37,598 --> 00:19:38,278
They go deep.
412
00:19:38,288 --> 00:19:40,778
They take their ROVs, and
they do public education.
413
00:19:40,918 --> 00:19:42,088
So does Ocean Networks Canada.
414
00:19:42,098 --> 00:19:44,048
They do public education of the deep sea.
415
00:19:44,178 --> 00:19:46,878
So we're starting to be able to have
the technology to go in and see what's
416
00:19:46,878 --> 00:19:50,251
there, but we're just… We haven't
even scratched the bottom of the ocean,
417
00:19:50,472 --> 00:19:54,402
not even the surface, the bottom of
the ocean, and we're ready to go in
418
00:19:54,402 --> 00:19:57,482
blind and just destroy what's there.
419
00:19:58,042 --> 00:20:00,942
And you know, again, this is not
something against Gerard Barron.
420
00:20:00,962 --> 00:20:03,112
He is doing what a business person does.
421
00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:05,439
Unfortunately, this is
what business people do.
422
00:20:05,616 --> 00:20:08,316
They see what they can get, they
can make a lot of money on it.
423
00:20:08,462 --> 00:20:12,132
And when people bring up things like,
"Hey, you could damage the environment.
424
00:20:12,152 --> 00:20:14,852
We have no idea what the damage
you can do to the environment."
425
00:20:15,232 --> 00:20:17,059
And they'd just be like, "Well,
actually, we're not doing any damage."
426
00:20:17,136 --> 00:20:21,009
It's not as bad, which we don't know it's
not as bad, as doing it on a rainforest,
427
00:20:21,009 --> 00:20:22,259
'cause we can see the rainforest.
428
00:20:22,289 --> 00:20:25,826
We can see the damage we're doing to the
rainforest, we can see the damage and the
429
00:20:25,826 --> 00:20:27,726
human rights offenses that are happening.
430
00:20:27,726 --> 00:20:28,376
Like, we can see that.
431
00:20:28,376 --> 00:20:28,916
Those are bad.
432
00:20:28,926 --> 00:20:29,776
Those shouldn't happen.
433
00:20:30,012 --> 00:20:33,262
But it doesn't mean that we have to
go with the place that is less bad,
434
00:20:33,562 --> 00:20:34,972
even though it could still be bad.
435
00:20:34,972 --> 00:20:37,259
He never said it would be
bad, he just said it wouldn't
436
00:20:37,259 --> 00:20:39,009
be as bad as doing it on land.
437
00:20:39,446 --> 00:20:41,136
So why are we doing it anyway?
438
00:20:41,612 --> 00:20:45,172
And it's gonna be really interesting
because in my interview on Friday with
439
00:20:45,172 --> 00:20:48,946
Matthew Gianni, he talks about some
of the conclusions of the International
440
00:20:48,946 --> 00:20:52,089
Seabed Authority, which TMC is not
even a part of anymore because they're
441
00:20:52,089 --> 00:20:53,439
going with the Trump administration.
442
00:20:53,736 --> 00:20:55,546
They want to mine.
443
00:20:55,626 --> 00:20:56,686
They want to deep sea mine.
444
00:20:56,756 --> 00:20:57,509
That's their goal.
445
00:20:57,662 --> 00:20:58,552
They have investors.
446
00:20:58,582 --> 00:20:59,802
They wanna go do this thing.
447
00:21:00,199 --> 00:21:02,922
Whether they can do it sustainably
is gonna be another thing.
448
00:21:03,109 --> 00:21:06,259
At the beginning of the episode, I
talked about how they really pushed for
449
00:21:06,259 --> 00:21:08,619
a two-year ramp-up to deep sea mine.
450
00:21:08,649 --> 00:21:10,989
It never went through, but
I'll tell you what did.
451
00:21:11,319 --> 00:21:12,879
The stock price went up.
452
00:21:13,049 --> 00:21:16,039
It went through the roof, and
then it's slowly been going down.
453
00:21:16,069 --> 00:21:18,649
And so Barron has been losing
money because of the stock
454
00:21:18,649 --> 00:21:20,389
price, and he hasn't sold yet.
455
00:21:20,899 --> 00:21:24,359
Now, we're ramping up very quickly
again with the Trump administration
456
00:21:24,729 --> 00:21:29,059
and issuing leases or will be issuing
leases in the next coming weeks.
457
00:21:29,646 --> 00:21:33,616
That's gonna bring up the stock again, and
whether it's actually gonna be economic
458
00:21:33,646 --> 00:21:35,302
or not, Barron's gonna make money.
459
00:21:35,512 --> 00:21:38,612
He may or may not stay with the company
after he makes this money, I don't know.
460
00:21:38,919 --> 00:21:42,209
That'll be interesting to see and to
see if this actually will go through.
461
00:21:42,592 --> 00:21:45,482
Stay tuned for that episode in a
couple days where I talk to Matthew
462
00:21:45,482 --> 00:21:49,962
Gianni, who is the co-founder and
the political and policy advisor for
463
00:21:49,962 --> 00:21:53,202
the Deep Sea Conservation Coalition,
which I covered his story on Monday.
464
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,049
And tomorrow, stay tuned because we're
gonna be talking about some of Barron's
465
00:21:57,099 --> 00:22:03,032
indications or allegations that the deep
sea is just a desert, and there's really
466
00:22:03,032 --> 00:22:05,382
nothing to worry about in terms of damage.
467
00:22:05,382 --> 00:22:07,712
So we're gonna talk about that
tomorrow, whether it's true or not.
468
00:22:07,899 --> 00:22:10,872
Follow if you want it, if you don't
wanna miss tomorrow's episode or
469
00:22:10,872 --> 00:22:12,252
come back, whatever you want.
470
00:22:12,452 --> 00:22:13,222
Trying something new.
471
00:22:13,222 --> 00:22:14,232
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
472
00:22:14,332 --> 00:22:16,222
Hit me up in the socials
in the show notes.
473
00:22:16,356 --> 00:22:19,096
But other than that, I wanna thank you
so much for joining me on today's episode
474
00:22:19,156 --> 00:22:20,586
of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
475
00:22:20,726 --> 00:22:21,406
Have a great day.
476
00:22:21,436 --> 00:22:23,486
We'll talk to you next time,
and happy conservation.
00:00:00,049 --> 00:00:04,199
Why would someone who watched one
company collapse after destroying the
2
00:00:04,199 --> 00:00:06,946
sea floor go back and try it again?
3
00:00:07,566 --> 00:00:09,353
Like, this is not just a hypothetical.
4
00:00:09,353 --> 00:00:12,976
This actually happened with the
same people, the same industry,
5
00:00:13,133 --> 00:00:14,893
and some of the same licenses.
6
00:00:15,443 --> 00:00:18,673
And the story that you're gonna hear on
this episode of the How to Protect the
7
00:00:18,673 --> 00:00:22,523
Ocean podcast, it's not really, like, an
accusation on this particular individual.
8
00:00:22,756 --> 00:00:25,476
It's really just a documented
sequence of decisions.
9
00:00:25,516 --> 00:00:29,609
And by the end, you can
decide for yourself whether
10
00:00:29,609 --> 00:00:30,979
what that motive looks like.
11
00:00:31,239 --> 00:00:37,003
Cause a lot of the times when we hear
this type of story, the story of a CEO
12
00:00:37,003 --> 00:00:41,863
who is working in natural resources, where
they're exploiting natural resources.
13
00:00:42,119 --> 00:00:45,499
There's one thing of having it as
natural resource that we've exploited
14
00:00:45,499 --> 00:00:51,679
in the past, but when they go into a new
domain, and we really don't understand
15
00:00:51,679 --> 00:00:56,429
the ramifications that are gonna happen
in this domain from this activity,
16
00:00:56,573 --> 00:01:01,343
it really begs the question of, why
the heck are we really doing this?
17
00:01:01,703 --> 00:01:03,103
Is it really just for the money?
18
00:01:03,123 --> 00:01:06,023
Is this just something, like, a
business person kinda looked at?
19
00:01:06,033 --> 00:01:11,086
So, what I wanna do today is I wanna look
at what I call the Gerard Barron pattern.
20
00:01:11,300 --> 00:01:14,279
And so essentially what this
is, is you have this person
21
00:01:14,289 --> 00:01:15,999
who is a business guy, right?
22
00:01:15,999 --> 00:01:19,129
He's a business person, and he
wants to have business and develop
23
00:01:19,129 --> 00:01:22,239
businesses, and maybe go into new
frontiers and do something that would
24
00:01:22,239 --> 00:01:24,339
help his legacy or help their legacy.
25
00:01:24,339 --> 00:01:26,439
I'm not just saying it's a
man, it could be a woman, too.
26
00:01:26,599 --> 00:01:30,749
And we see a lot of these people who
wanna be CEOs, who wanna do something
27
00:01:30,749 --> 00:01:33,363
bold and something really cool.
28
00:01:33,656 --> 00:01:37,239
But at the end of the day, who
is it really supporting?
29
00:01:37,519 --> 00:01:39,379
Who is it really helping?
30
00:01:39,729 --> 00:01:42,109
And so that's what we're gonna talk about
in today's episode of the How to Protect
31
00:01:42,109 --> 00:01:47,993
the Ocean podcast, your source for ocean
news, updates on science and conservation
32
00:01:48,046 --> 00:01:51,026
from Monday to Fridays every weekday.
33
00:01:51,163 --> 00:01:53,713
So, if you like this kinda stuff that
we're doing, I'm trying something, like,
34
00:01:53,723 --> 00:01:55,343
a new storytelling thing this week.
35
00:01:55,519 --> 00:01:57,269
So if you've been with me for a while
and you haven't followed, you can
36
00:01:57,269 --> 00:01:59,229
follow right now if you like this stuff.
37
00:01:59,413 --> 00:02:00,373
And of course, you can let me know.
38
00:02:00,373 --> 00:02:01,513
Just hit me up on my socials.
39
00:02:01,573 --> 00:02:03,913
The links are in the show notes,
'cause I'd love to hear your thoughts
40
00:02:03,913 --> 00:02:07,483
on this new type of, storytelling,
I guess, is what we're really doing.
41
00:02:07,776 --> 00:02:09,416
Anyway, let's get into it, right?
42
00:02:09,416 --> 00:02:11,356
'Cause wanna know just
why this really matters.
43
00:02:11,356 --> 00:02:13,326
Let's talk about the person
that we're gonna talk about.
44
00:02:13,536 --> 00:02:16,526
It's Gerard Barron, who is
the CEO of The Metals Company.
45
00:02:16,799 --> 00:02:20,959
Probably one of the most prominent and
best-funded companies pushing to start
46
00:02:21,009 --> 00:02:24,243
commercial deep-sea mining right now.
47
00:02:24,623 --> 00:02:28,479
Now, TMC, so The Metals Company also known
as TMC, is the company that triggered the
48
00:02:28,479 --> 00:02:32,359
two-year rule at the International Seabed
Authority through its partner nation,
49
00:02:32,436 --> 00:02:37,349
Nauru, forcing the pace on mining
regulations before the science was ready.
50
00:02:37,526 --> 00:02:39,116
They did this a few years ago.
51
00:02:39,246 --> 00:02:44,091
It really accelerated and panicked
a lot of people when they started
52
00:02:44,091 --> 00:02:47,061
to do this, because I remember
covering, you know, talking to people
53
00:02:47,061 --> 00:02:50,494
who went to the ISA meetings, and
these are done in Kingston, Jamaica.
54
00:02:50,821 --> 00:02:53,151
And it got to a point where
they were putting scientists
55
00:02:53,191 --> 00:02:54,861
and NGOs in different rooms.
56
00:02:55,048 --> 00:02:58,008
So it made it a lot more
difficult for them to discuss
57
00:02:58,038 --> 00:03:00,818
with member nations, especially
if member nations had questions.
58
00:03:00,828 --> 00:03:04,961
So we had experts like Dr. Diva Amon,
who were, like, in separate rooms.
59
00:03:05,268 --> 00:03:07,148
She's a deep-sea scientist,
deep-sea ecologist.
60
00:03:07,148 --> 00:03:09,568
She's the one that you should be going
to, being like, "Hey, if we decide to
61
00:03:09,568 --> 00:03:12,488
do this, what would be the consequences?
Like, can we do this? Can we not do
62
00:03:12,488 --> 00:03:15,458
this?" And they were in different
rooms, so it made it really difficult
63
00:03:15,458 --> 00:03:17,038
for them to have that kind of connection.
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00:03:17,038 --> 00:03:18,598
So TMC was responsible for doing this.
65
00:03:18,628 --> 00:03:20,578
They have been the one
pushing for this stuff.
66
00:03:20,578 --> 00:03:24,418
And I should mention again, according to
the, like, this is the idea of the story,
67
00:03:24,418 --> 00:03:28,424
that when TMC pushed that two-year rule,
all of a sudden their stock went up.
68
00:03:28,821 --> 00:03:32,864
And the CEO, Gerard Barron,
made millions off of it.
69
00:03:33,204 --> 00:03:37,134
So, like, all of this is all
related to this story and to the
70
00:03:37,134 --> 00:03:40,504
sort of motive of what is really
the motive of some of these CEOs.
71
00:03:41,627 --> 00:03:45,147
Now, TMC is also the company that
has pursued the unilateral path
72
00:03:45,147 --> 00:03:49,057
through the Trump administration
and NOAA to get a mining permit
73
00:03:49,087 --> 00:03:51,417
outside of the ISA process entirely.
74
00:03:51,417 --> 00:03:55,947
Now, the US is not part of
the UNCLOS, which is the UN
75
00:03:55,947 --> 00:03:57,467
Convention of the Law of the Sea.
76
00:03:57,650 --> 00:03:58,900
They're not ratified, I guess.
77
00:03:58,900 --> 00:03:59,630
They're not signed onto it.
78
00:03:59,630 --> 00:04:03,480
They can't be a part of the International
Seabed Authority, member committee
79
00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:04,790
meetings and things like that.
80
00:04:05,027 --> 00:04:08,017
But they can pursue their
own deep sea mining path in
81
00:04:08,017 --> 00:04:09,397
their exclusive economic zone.
82
00:04:09,997 --> 00:04:12,587
So whatever happens with deep sea
mining over the next few years
83
00:04:12,617 --> 00:04:17,004
in the Clarion-Clipperton Zone
specifically, largely runs through
84
00:04:17,034 --> 00:04:19,234
this one company and this one CEO.
85
00:04:19,254 --> 00:04:23,054
And recently, like just as a couple
of days ago as of recording this
86
00:04:23,094 --> 00:04:27,767
podcast, the US issued another
leasing license, or the announcement
87
00:04:27,767 --> 00:04:30,484
that they're gonna be issuing another
leasing license just outside the
88
00:04:31,354 --> 00:04:33,114
CNMI, so the, Northern Mariana Islands.
89
00:04:33,324 --> 00:04:36,004
And it's like a 69 million acre area.
90
00:04:36,344 --> 00:04:40,413
And this is all pushed on by
this CEO, by Gerard Barron.
91
00:04:40,797 --> 00:04:42,247
This is where it all begins.
92
00:04:42,297 --> 00:04:44,257
Like, this is where we're at right now.
93
00:04:44,837 --> 00:04:48,297
We're at this precipice of going
into a new frontier and doing
94
00:04:48,297 --> 00:04:51,487
something new, a frontier that
we don't really know much about.
95
00:04:51,707 --> 00:04:54,287
We haven't surveyed, we haven't
mapped a lot of the areas.
96
00:04:54,287 --> 00:04:58,597
We know specific areas, and we know that
there has been damage done by deep sea
97
00:04:58,597 --> 00:05:00,820
mining through, like, this research thing.
98
00:05:00,980 --> 00:05:04,617
We know that there are studies that show
that for three or four years after deep
99
00:05:04,617 --> 00:05:09,640
sea mining has occurred, the biodiversity
that was affected did not recover.
100
00:05:10,230 --> 00:05:13,330
So we know there's not a quick
recovery to deep sea mining
101
00:05:13,330 --> 00:05:14,730
when this damage has been done.
102
00:05:15,250 --> 00:05:17,640
The question is, really
is, do people care?
103
00:05:18,161 --> 00:05:21,861
Because it seems like people like Gerard
Barron are gonna continue to pursue
104
00:05:21,861 --> 00:05:23,331
this dream to be able to go there.
105
00:05:23,331 --> 00:05:28,471
But to understand sort of like the
mind of a CEO such as Gerard Barron,
106
00:05:28,631 --> 00:05:30,261
we have to go back to his story.
107
00:05:30,554 --> 00:05:34,694
So he started off as an ad tech
business CEO, Adstream, which
108
00:05:34,694 --> 00:05:38,514
was founded in Sydney in 2000
by three others, Brett Sullivan,
109
00:05:38,677 --> 00:05:40,257
Julian Chow, and James Carpenter.
110
00:05:40,524 --> 00:05:43,064
It was basically to solve the
delivery of TV commercials and
111
00:05:43,074 --> 00:05:44,774
ad materials to broadcasters.
112
00:05:44,774 --> 00:05:48,871
So as the digital age was coming in, this
was something that was really important.
113
00:05:48,951 --> 00:05:52,961
So Barron became the CEO once the company
needed investment and formal leadership
114
00:05:53,011 --> 00:05:57,267
with a holding company formalized in 2001,
which is the date of most of his official
115
00:05:57,267 --> 00:06:00,147
bios point and as to when he founded it.
116
00:06:00,217 --> 00:06:02,357
He was the CEO, but
did he really found it?
117
00:06:02,554 --> 00:06:04,704
Apparently there's a bit of
controversy around there.
118
00:06:04,724 --> 00:06:07,804
Now, under Barron, the Adstream
grew from a single office in Sydney
119
00:06:07,804 --> 00:06:11,457
to more than 40 offices in 30
countries, eventually pulling in
120
00:06:11,457 --> 00:06:13,557
over $100 million a year in revenue.
121
00:06:13,944 --> 00:06:16,734
Now, he ran it as a CEO
until December 2013.
122
00:06:17,201 --> 00:06:19,181
And so, like, he wasn't a
mining person before this.
123
00:06:19,181 --> 00:06:20,081
He was a business person.
124
00:06:20,081 --> 00:06:21,371
He was going into ad revenue.
125
00:06:21,391 --> 00:06:26,221
That he was providing digital ads to TV
shows and programs and things like that.
126
00:06:26,461 --> 00:06:29,381
Nothing this crazy, but he
was definitely into technology,
127
00:06:29,611 --> 00:06:30,901
but in the advertising space.
128
00:06:30,901 --> 00:06:32,171
He was an advertising exec.
129
00:06:32,381 --> 00:06:35,781
So he was like the mad men of the
'50s, but he was in the 2000s, right?
130
00:06:35,781 --> 00:06:37,354
So it's obviously a lucrative deal.
131
00:06:37,484 --> 00:06:41,164
He did very well in growing the company,
whether it's all of him or the people
132
00:06:41,164 --> 00:06:42,694
that were under him, who knows, right?
133
00:06:42,867 --> 00:06:46,041
But, you know, when you're a CEO, you're
the one who gets the credit for all this
134
00:06:46,041 --> 00:06:49,711
that's happening and good on him for being
able to grow that company to that amount.
135
00:06:50,137 --> 00:06:54,264
Now, his friend David Hayden, a
geologist he knew through tennis,
136
00:06:54,350 --> 00:06:55,840
pitched him on a new venture.
137
00:06:56,130 --> 00:07:00,687
An underwater mining company called
Nautilus Minerals around the same time
138
00:07:00,734 --> 00:07:02,174
Adstream was getting off the ground.
139
00:07:02,174 --> 00:07:03,494
So this is around 2001.
140
00:07:03,767 --> 00:07:08,057
He said it pretty plainly in his own words
to NPR, that he knew very little about
141
00:07:08,057 --> 00:07:10,117
the ocean and very little about mining.
142
00:07:10,547 --> 00:07:11,757
But he was curious.
143
00:07:11,777 --> 00:07:12,897
It was a new frontier.
144
00:07:13,077 --> 00:07:15,897
In a separate interview, he
described being fascinated to learn
145
00:07:15,897 --> 00:07:17,347
that the ocean is full of metal.
146
00:07:17,704 --> 00:07:20,184
Not the ocean is teeming with
life, the ocean is full of metal.
147
00:07:20,384 --> 00:07:23,064
And that it seemed like an interesting
project, despite knowing nothing
148
00:07:23,074 --> 00:07:26,834
about mining and never having
invested in a mining company before.
149
00:07:27,054 --> 00:07:28,134
So this is completely new.
150
00:07:28,134 --> 00:07:29,354
It's a big challenge for him.
151
00:07:29,534 --> 00:07:32,334
Doesn't know much about the ocean,
intrigued that there's metal.
152
00:07:32,444 --> 00:07:33,794
This is something that's
really interesting.
153
00:07:33,794 --> 00:07:36,877
Now, years later, reflecting on that
decision at a mining conference, he
154
00:07:36,877 --> 00:07:40,664
said he was fascinated by the new
ideas and probably knew too little
155
00:07:40,664 --> 00:07:42,094
to be scared of the challenges.
156
00:07:42,094 --> 00:07:44,824
So if he had gone back again,
maybe he wouldn't have done it.
157
00:07:45,130 --> 00:07:48,740
But he did put in his own money and
helped round up other investors.
158
00:07:48,740 --> 00:07:52,810
So, you're looking at a guy from Adstream,
gets presented with this deal to invest
159
00:07:52,810 --> 00:07:54,850
in this company called Nautilus Minerals.
160
00:07:54,967 --> 00:07:56,487
And so he has this area.
161
00:07:56,547 --> 00:07:59,444
And so it's not as if he's been
intrigued by the ocean, intrigued
162
00:07:59,444 --> 00:08:00,684
by the metal all of his life.
163
00:08:00,684 --> 00:08:04,727
He comes from ad tech businesses, grows
that really well and now into a new
164
00:08:04,727 --> 00:08:07,417
challenge and be like, "Hey, I don't know
much about the ocean, so I'm probably not
165
00:08:07,427 --> 00:08:11,887
scared enough to really understand how
difficult it is to do deep sea mining."
166
00:08:12,167 --> 00:08:14,540
So I think, he's someone who didn't
really understand business risks.
167
00:08:14,677 --> 00:08:17,477
He put in a lot of his own money, and
he got investors to do it as well.
168
00:08:17,477 --> 00:08:19,847
So, you know, he's very
good at bringing in money.
169
00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,590
He's a very good CEO, he's a
very good business person in
170
00:08:22,590 --> 00:08:23,930
convincing people to bring in.
171
00:08:24,337 --> 00:08:26,797
And he's consistently told the
same story across, interviews
172
00:08:26,797 --> 00:08:28,047
at, like, spanning years.
173
00:08:28,057 --> 00:08:29,467
So it's not as if he switches his story.
174
00:08:29,467 --> 00:08:32,303
Like, he just knows what he went
through and how he felt, and he's
175
00:08:32,304 --> 00:08:33,703
sticking to those type stories.
176
00:08:33,703 --> 00:08:36,293
Well, now whether that happened
exactly, I have no idea.
177
00:08:36,293 --> 00:08:38,810
I don't wanna, like, put words
into his mouth, but this is what
178
00:08:38,820 --> 00:08:40,600
he's been saying over the years.
179
00:08:40,854 --> 00:08:43,964
Now, Nautilus went after
underwater mineral deposits
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00:08:43,964 --> 00:08:46,144
called seafloor massive sulfides.
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00:08:46,154 --> 00:08:50,483
So off the coast of Papua New Guinea,
rich in copper, gold, silver, and zinc.
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00:08:50,513 --> 00:08:53,153
And the company eventually raised
hundreds of millions of dollars
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00:08:53,153 --> 00:08:56,893
from investors, including the
government of Papua New Guinea itself.
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00:08:56,893 --> 00:08:58,623
And this is really
important to understand.
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00:08:59,013 --> 00:09:02,877
Now, Barron sold his shares and
exited, walking away, a return
186
00:09:02,887 --> 00:09:06,837
reported as high as $30 million
on his own original investment.
187
00:09:06,837 --> 00:09:07,697
So made money.
188
00:09:08,157 --> 00:09:12,017
As a business person, this
guy made a boatload of money.
189
00:09:12,017 --> 00:09:15,967
He started early, left early,
before anything could really be
190
00:09:15,967 --> 00:09:19,484
done, got the government of Papua
New Guinea itself to invest in it.
191
00:09:19,978 --> 00:09:23,028
And a lot of times the CEO is that,
is the mouthpiece, is the messenger.
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00:09:23,028 --> 00:09:25,701
They're the person who you
look to for the success.
193
00:09:25,701 --> 00:09:27,781
He's had a successful ad tech business.
194
00:09:27,961 --> 00:09:29,001
He's getting into this.
195
00:09:29,031 --> 00:09:32,331
He's got a lot of investors, including
a government who probably doesn't have
196
00:09:32,331 --> 00:09:34,968
a lot of money, like in developing
countries like Papua New Guinea, but
197
00:09:34,968 --> 00:09:36,878
they're invested in what he talked about.
198
00:09:36,878 --> 00:09:39,404
Sold his shares, made
a reported 30 million.
199
00:09:39,798 --> 00:09:42,508
This is interesting 'cause it's like the
first time, like he got into like deep
200
00:09:42,508 --> 00:09:44,684
sea mining, got out, made a ton of money.
201
00:09:44,964 --> 00:09:45,574
This was good.
202
00:09:45,614 --> 00:09:48,594
Didn't even mine anything at
this point, like commercially.
203
00:09:49,124 --> 00:09:51,014
They may have done some little
research here and there, but didn't
204
00:09:51,014 --> 00:09:52,214
even mine anything commercially.
205
00:09:52,628 --> 00:09:55,398
But he got out before anything
could have gone wrong.
206
00:09:55,853 --> 00:09:56,853
That's where the key comes in.
207
00:09:56,863 --> 00:09:59,443
Now, Barron was never
Nautilus' CEO or manager.
208
00:09:59,443 --> 00:10:03,070
He was an early investor and a promoter
who helped raise the money, while
209
00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,690
David Hayden served as the company's
actual CEO, his friend who originally
210
00:10:06,690 --> 00:10:09,070
presented the idea from 2002 to 2008.
211
00:10:09,670 --> 00:10:12,620
Now, by Barron's own account, he
had largely sold out of his position
212
00:10:12,620 --> 00:10:14,870
by the time Papua New Guinea
government invested in the project.
213
00:10:14,870 --> 00:10:17,430
So it's not as if he convinced
it in there well over a decade
214
00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,893
before this company went bankrupt.
215
00:10:20,420 --> 00:10:23,280
Now, Barron himself has named
three reasons for the collapse.
216
00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,730
So he talked about the wrong technology
for the job, the difficulty in operating
217
00:10:27,730 --> 00:10:31,590
and developing in a nation like Papua
New Guinea, and simply never finding as
218
00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,030
much of the target resource as expected.
219
00:10:34,540 --> 00:10:38,436
So really everything that could have gone
wrong went wrong, but it's a new company.
220
00:10:38,746 --> 00:10:39,596
It's something that's new.
221
00:10:39,596 --> 00:10:42,076
Deep sea mining hasn't really
been done that much before.
222
00:10:42,846 --> 00:10:45,966
Now, independent reporting adds
financial detail to this whole thing.
223
00:10:46,146 --> 00:10:50,700
Nautilus originally projected operating
costs of about $70 per ton, but those
224
00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:55,860
costs spiraled into $192 per ton, which
triggered its delisting from the Toronto
225
00:10:55,860 --> 00:10:59,386
Stock Exchange here in Canada, and
its filing for creditor protection.
226
00:10:59,886 --> 00:11:02,676
So it couldn't really make the
money that it really wanted.
227
00:11:02,793 --> 00:11:05,423
And then, of course, Papua New Guinea's
own prime minister said the country
228
00:11:05,433 --> 00:11:09,613
burned through nearly 300 million
kina, which is their money, which is
229
00:11:09,653 --> 00:11:14,326
equivalent to about $72 million US,
calling the project a total failure.
230
00:11:14,723 --> 00:11:17,193
Now, on the operational side, a
shipyard building the company's
231
00:11:17,193 --> 00:11:20,783
specialized support vessel canceled
the contract after Nautilus failed
232
00:11:20,783 --> 00:11:22,673
to pay an $18 million installment.
233
00:11:23,133 --> 00:11:24,423
So that's another thing that went wrong.
234
00:11:24,453 --> 00:11:26,533
So not only did they leave the
government hanging, they left the
235
00:11:26,533 --> 00:11:27,873
shipyard who was building the ship.
236
00:11:28,373 --> 00:11:31,523
And Nautilus filed for bankruptcy
protection in a Canadian court in
237
00:11:31,523 --> 00:11:35,073
February 2019, failed to find a
buyer during the restructuring, and
238
00:11:35,073 --> 00:11:37,083
was fully liquidated by that August.
239
00:11:37,570 --> 00:11:41,470
Now, along the way, the project
destroyed sensitive seabed habitat
240
00:11:41,470 --> 00:11:42,810
in Papua New Guinea's waters.
241
00:11:43,253 --> 00:11:46,073
Now, the government's which had invested
heavily in the project, was left
242
00:11:46,073 --> 00:11:49,653
facing not only a debt equivalent of
roughly a third of the country's annual
243
00:11:49,653 --> 00:11:52,570
health budget, but also, part of the
environment that was destroyed of what
244
00:11:52,570 --> 00:11:53,910
they were trying to bring together.
245
00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:57,592
So right now, if you really look at it,
the business people have learned that if
246
00:11:57,592 --> 00:12:01,296
you create a company and you talk about
mining in a new frontier, the deep sea,
247
00:12:01,492 --> 00:12:03,202
you can get a lot of interest from people.
248
00:12:03,252 --> 00:12:06,072
People who may not understand the ocean,
business people who may not understand the
249
00:12:06,072 --> 00:12:09,232
ocean, but have the money to invest large
sums of money, like, tens of millions
250
00:12:09,232 --> 00:12:10,802
of dollars to put things together.
251
00:12:11,422 --> 00:12:15,072
And as a business person, if you get
out at the right time, or an investor,
252
00:12:15,189 --> 00:12:17,529
if you get out at the right time,
you can make your money because of
253
00:12:17,539 --> 00:12:19,359
all, just the excitement of it all.
254
00:12:19,359 --> 00:12:22,459
Everybody's putting in money, putting
in money, so your stock goes up.
255
00:12:22,459 --> 00:12:25,119
And I'm not an economist, I don't
understand all that, but I know your
256
00:12:25,119 --> 00:12:27,339
stock goes up to the point where
Barron's is like, "Hey, you know what?
257
00:12:27,349 --> 00:12:27,979
I'm gonna get out.
258
00:12:28,206 --> 00:12:31,336
I got $30 million now compared
to my initial investment.
259
00:12:31,466 --> 00:12:34,364
Like, that's pretty cool." Right
now, this entire company, everybody
260
00:12:34,474 --> 00:12:35,334
who was involved, not just Baron.
261
00:12:35,334 --> 00:12:37,774
Baron got out before really
all the damages was done.
262
00:12:38,031 --> 00:12:42,141
But, you look at what this company did,
caused damage and took out a lot of the
263
00:12:42,141 --> 00:12:44,921
money from Papua New Guinea's government,
which probably didn't have the money to
264
00:12:44,921 --> 00:12:48,481
really burn through like that, just in
general because it's a developing country
265
00:12:48,481 --> 00:12:50,551
and its people need other things, right?
266
00:12:50,551 --> 00:12:52,331
But they, took a chance and they lost.
267
00:12:52,784 --> 00:12:56,154
So Pacific Nation invested public
money and got left holding both the
268
00:12:56,154 --> 00:12:57,684
financial and environmental damage.
269
00:12:57,684 --> 00:12:59,398
But some of the business
people made money.
270
00:12:59,871 --> 00:13:00,951
This is what really happened.
271
00:13:01,534 --> 00:13:05,571
Now, in 2011, so people connected to
Nautilus, including Hayden, started
272
00:13:05,571 --> 00:13:07,021
a new company called DeepGreen.
273
00:13:07,501 --> 00:13:11,831
Now, Baron became involved early, then
took over as chairman and CEO in 2018.
274
00:13:11,831 --> 00:13:13,551
So we advanced almost 10 years.
275
00:13:13,801 --> 00:13:16,641
Now, DeepGreen eventually became
the Metals Company, which is
276
00:13:16,641 --> 00:13:19,571
also known as TMZ, which we
know now is still active today.
277
00:13:20,134 --> 00:13:24,424
Now, TMC's exploring license in the
Clarion-Clipperton Zone once belonged to
278
00:13:24,424 --> 00:13:27,144
Nautilus, so it got taken over by TMC.
279
00:13:27,608 --> 00:13:29,018
So this is look- looks like a deja vu.
280
00:13:29,068 --> 00:13:31,598
You get the both people who were
initially involved in Nautilus.
281
00:13:31,598 --> 00:13:35,054
You got Hayden and Baron
both involved together again.
282
00:13:35,394 --> 00:13:36,224
Baron made money.
283
00:13:36,274 --> 00:13:40,084
I don't know exactly how Hayden kinda
left after Nautilus, but they made money.
284
00:13:40,424 --> 00:13:44,024
And now they're taking over the
leases that Nautilus had into an
285
00:13:44,034 --> 00:13:46,661
area called the Clarion- Clipperton
Zone, which is in the Pacific.
286
00:13:46,671 --> 00:13:49,651
It's a deep sea area that's known
to have minerals, like these
287
00:13:49,651 --> 00:13:51,361
critical minerals for batteries.
288
00:13:51,361 --> 00:13:54,101
Like, you gotta remember, this is
all for, and especially now, EVs
289
00:13:54,111 --> 00:13:55,551
are really starting to catch on.
290
00:13:55,924 --> 00:13:57,564
The batteries need critical minerals.
291
00:13:57,574 --> 00:14:00,434
Not only do the EVs need it, but
they also, like phones and everything
292
00:14:00,434 --> 00:14:01,554
like that, we need critical minerals.
293
00:14:01,787 --> 00:14:06,407
There are reports and videos of
people in the Congo who are actively
294
00:14:06,417 --> 00:14:10,147
mining, open-pit mining for these
minerals that are going through
295
00:14:10,207 --> 00:14:13,244
awful human rights crimes and
they're being treated like crap.
296
00:14:13,244 --> 00:14:15,224
They're dying, and there are kids
that are in there and all that.
297
00:14:15,224 --> 00:14:15,964
It's awful.
298
00:14:16,181 --> 00:14:19,271
So you have this, this area where
it's like we're not harming anybody,
299
00:14:19,361 --> 00:14:20,921
like from a human rights perspective.
300
00:14:21,277 --> 00:14:22,067
Now we can see.
301
00:14:22,487 --> 00:14:24,777
We've already been through it, and
then from a business perspective,
302
00:14:24,777 --> 00:14:27,597
we've made a lot of money from
it, or at least Baron has.
303
00:14:27,901 --> 00:14:30,681
And so, hey, why don't we
just try and take this again?
304
00:14:30,691 --> 00:14:31,421
We have a lease.
305
00:14:31,461 --> 00:14:32,021
We can do it.
306
00:14:32,587 --> 00:14:35,834
Now going back on Nautilus, Barron
said publicly that he and his
307
00:14:35,834 --> 00:14:38,394
colleagues are not ashamed of
what happened with Nautilus, even
308
00:14:38,394 --> 00:14:41,364
though they left the government
hanging and the environment damaged.
309
00:14:41,581 --> 00:14:44,641
He comparing themselves to pioneers
who end up with arrows in the back,
310
00:14:44,641 --> 00:14:48,111
and arguing that without Nautilus,
the wider deep sea mining industry
311
00:14:48,111 --> 00:14:49,381
would never have gotten started.
312
00:14:49,381 --> 00:14:50,581
And that's probably true.
313
00:14:50,931 --> 00:14:52,991
Like, they're probably
pioneers in that area, but they
314
00:14:52,991 --> 00:14:54,611
haven't shown that it worked.
315
00:14:55,104 --> 00:14:56,324
They didn't have the right equipment.
316
00:14:56,704 --> 00:14:59,034
It wasn't the right materials
that they were going after.
317
00:14:59,427 --> 00:15:02,557
And they eventually, they just couldn't do
it with the equipment that they had, and
318
00:15:02,557 --> 00:15:04,057
they couldn't make it financially viable.
319
00:15:04,517 --> 00:15:07,387
The mistakes he names are technical
and financial, not environmental.
320
00:15:07,387 --> 00:15:10,377
He never mentioned the environment, never
mentioned the damage of the environment.
321
00:15:10,614 --> 00:15:13,774
He specifically criticizes
equipment Nautilus used on the sea
322
00:15:13,774 --> 00:15:15,114
floor, like I mentioned before.
323
00:15:15,348 --> 00:15:18,967
Calling those machines big, angry
rock grabbers that filled him with
324
00:15:18,967 --> 00:15:23,311
horror, and contrast that with the
nodule collection machine TMC uses
325
00:15:23,321 --> 00:15:25,497
now, which he calls gentle giants.
326
00:15:25,507 --> 00:15:26,787
Now, these are still machines.
327
00:15:26,787 --> 00:15:29,277
These are still things that are gonna be
grabbing things, and they're gonna get
328
00:15:29,277 --> 00:15:32,567
into the sand, they're gonna get into the
bottom, and they're gonna muck it all up.
329
00:15:33,007 --> 00:15:36,157
Now, he frames the location as part
of the problem, too, in Papua New
330
00:15:36,167 --> 00:15:39,117
Guinea, noting that the challenge
of operating in a developing nation
331
00:15:39,117 --> 00:15:42,137
like Papua New Guinea says that he
had largely sold out of the project
332
00:15:42,137 --> 00:15:44,951
by the time the government invested,
but didn't really tell the government
333
00:15:44,971 --> 00:15:47,111
that he was sold out, that I know of,
334
00:15:47,457 --> 00:15:48,707
Cause they bought in huge.
335
00:15:48,987 --> 00:15:50,487
To a third of what they could have.
336
00:15:51,101 --> 00:15:55,157
So again, no regret on his part
from the environmental aspect.
337
00:15:55,337 --> 00:15:59,237
Made a ton of money from that project,
and is ready to do it again because he
338
00:15:59,237 --> 00:16:01,374
thinks now they're in a different zone.
339
00:16:01,828 --> 00:16:05,547
It's in the high seas, so it's not tied to
a specific country, let alone a developing
340
00:16:05,547 --> 00:16:07,187
country, so don't have to deal with those.
341
00:16:07,674 --> 00:16:11,021
And he says he's got better vehicles
now, and he can do it better.
342
00:16:11,501 --> 00:16:13,651
But again, not talking
about the environment.
343
00:16:13,661 --> 00:16:16,661
More talking about the business and
the sustainability economically.
344
00:16:17,034 --> 00:16:19,861
So the regret's more about the geography
and equipment, not the environment.
345
00:16:20,284 --> 00:16:23,747
Now, across multiple interviews
spanning years, Barron has not expressed
346
00:16:23,787 --> 00:16:27,007
uncertainty or worry about whether
deep sea mining itself harms the ocean,
347
00:16:27,007 --> 00:16:28,957
which a lot of people are talking about.
348
00:16:29,431 --> 00:16:31,661
And his consistent argument
is a comparison one.
349
00:16:31,661 --> 00:16:34,611
He said that mining the seabed
is less environmentally damaged
350
00:16:34,611 --> 00:16:36,084
than mining on land, right?
351
00:16:36,084 --> 00:16:39,644
In the BBC interview, he described
the Clarion-Clipperton Zone as having
352
00:16:39,654 --> 00:16:43,951
essentially zero plant life and only
about 10 grams of biomass per square
353
00:16:43,951 --> 00:16:47,711
meter, compared to the far higher
biomass equatorial rainforest, where
354
00:16:47,711 --> 00:16:49,431
land-based nickel mining happens.
355
00:16:49,857 --> 00:16:52,947
So when Greenpeace published a report
critical of the deep sea mining industry,
356
00:16:52,967 --> 00:16:55,797
TMC's response was that Greenpeace
had fundamentally misunderstood the
357
00:16:55,797 --> 00:16:58,137
industry, not that the concerns had merit.
358
00:16:58,494 --> 00:17:01,154
And by the way, the 10 grams
of biomass per square meter,
359
00:17:01,294 --> 00:17:02,414
it wasn't even close to that.
360
00:17:02,914 --> 00:17:03,814
It was a lot higher.
361
00:17:04,377 --> 00:17:09,437
Again, so looking at the character of
the CEO, not just Barron, but a CEO
362
00:17:09,447 --> 00:17:11,461
looking at, " Hey, I have this industry.
363
00:17:11,481 --> 00:17:13,351
I made a ton of money last time.
364
00:17:13,741 --> 00:17:17,231
I'm gonna go into it again, even
though it didn't survive, and 'cause
365
00:17:17,231 --> 00:17:18,881
I think I can do it better this time.
366
00:17:18,881 --> 00:17:20,971
We don't have to worry about the
country, the geography, we don't
367
00:17:20,971 --> 00:17:23,461
have to worry about the equipment,"
according to him, according to the
368
00:17:23,461 --> 00:17:28,997
CEO, But he never is really concerned
about this desert of a deep sea, and
369
00:17:28,997 --> 00:17:32,754
it's better than mining in a rainforest
that it was done in the Congo.
370
00:17:33,234 --> 00:17:35,817
We're still looking at,
is it really equitable?
371
00:17:35,817 --> 00:17:36,567
I don't know.
372
00:17:36,917 --> 00:17:40,848
But obviously there's the extra added
like human rights offenses that happened
373
00:17:40,858 --> 00:17:43,907
in a lot of these mines in Africa
and the Congo where this happens.
374
00:17:44,194 --> 00:17:47,634
Again, you're looking at a business
person who wants business, who
375
00:17:47,644 --> 00:17:50,604
wants this to survive so he
can make a boat ton of money.
376
00:17:51,238 --> 00:17:54,488
Now, the Wall Street Journal
summarized the arc, this way
377
00:17:54,488 --> 00:17:55,618
when the TMZ went public.
378
00:17:55,858 --> 00:17:58,648
The company Baron backed for the
first time lost half a billion
379
00:17:58,648 --> 00:18:02,398
dollars, got crosswise with the
South Pacific government, destroyed
380
00:18:02,398 --> 00:18:06,168
sensitive seabed habitat, and
went broke, and now he's trying it
381
00:18:06,168 --> 00:18:07,965
again because he made $30 million.
382
00:18:07,965 --> 00:18:11,641
The company lost half a billion,
but he made $30 million.
383
00:18:12,675 --> 00:18:16,931
Again, it's just like this came like
a mainstream financial publication.
384
00:18:17,431 --> 00:18:19,348
It's not just like an
environmentalist here.
385
00:18:19,348 --> 00:18:22,758
it's something like a publication
that looks at like finances.
386
00:18:22,788 --> 00:18:23,618
That's what they look at.
387
00:18:24,115 --> 00:18:29,055
And I think when we look at how this
is pursued, , if you take the Gerard
388
00:18:29,065 --> 00:18:33,375
Baron pattern and you kind of blow it
up a little bit and you look around to
389
00:18:33,455 --> 00:18:38,018
other natural resource companies or even
other companies, the people involved
390
00:18:38,028 --> 00:18:40,408
a lot of the time see the process.
391
00:18:40,468 --> 00:18:42,368
You know, they see the operations.
392
00:18:42,655 --> 00:18:47,145
They don't necessarily see ahead of
the damage that they could cause.
393
00:18:47,671 --> 00:18:50,071
We're looking at a new
frontier in the deep sea that
394
00:18:50,071 --> 00:18:51,561
we don't know anything about.
395
00:18:52,061 --> 00:18:55,511
We're looking at doing something
that could damage something that
396
00:18:55,511 --> 00:18:58,941
could really mess up our planet if
we knew what we were messing up.
397
00:18:59,391 --> 00:19:02,431
We saw damage done off the
coast of Papua New Guinea.
398
00:19:02,442 --> 00:19:05,991
We saw studies saying that the
recovery is not four years.
399
00:19:05,991 --> 00:19:07,041
It's longer than that.
400
00:19:07,041 --> 00:19:07,941
We don't know how much.
401
00:19:07,941 --> 00:19:11,461
But we've also seen studies in the deep
sea that I covered yesterday where
402
00:19:11,461 --> 00:19:14,365
we look at seamount trawling and,
you know, you're looking at destroying
403
00:19:14,375 --> 00:19:17,905
habitat that took centuries to create
because they're such slow-growing
404
00:19:17,905 --> 00:19:19,745
species that create this habitat.
405
00:19:20,155 --> 00:19:21,435
What if that happens down there?
406
00:19:21,435 --> 00:19:25,475
We will never be able to know the
loss of any kind of endemic species
407
00:19:25,485 --> 00:19:30,831
that could be beneficial to the human
species later on in life as we start
408
00:19:30,831 --> 00:19:33,721
to discover more about the ocean.
409
00:19:33,871 --> 00:19:36,118
You see, Scripps, Oceanog-
Institute of Oceanography.
410
00:19:36,118 --> 00:19:37,588
You see Nautilus Live.
411
00:19:37,598 --> 00:19:38,278
They go deep.
412
00:19:38,288 --> 00:19:40,778
They take their ROVs, and
they do public education.
413
00:19:40,918 --> 00:19:42,088
So does Ocean Networks Canada.
414
00:19:42,098 --> 00:19:44,048
They do public education of the deep sea.
415
00:19:44,178 --> 00:19:46,878
So we're starting to be able to have
the technology to go in and see what's
416
00:19:46,878 --> 00:19:50,251
there, but we're just… We haven't
even scratched the bottom of the ocean,
417
00:19:50,472 --> 00:19:54,402
not even the surface, the bottom of
the ocean, and we're ready to go in
418
00:19:54,402 --> 00:19:57,482
blind and just destroy what's there.
419
00:19:58,042 --> 00:20:00,942
And you know, again, this is not
something against Gerard Barron.
420
00:20:00,962 --> 00:20:03,112
He is doing what a business person does.
421
00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:05,439
Unfortunately, this is
what business people do.
422
00:20:05,616 --> 00:20:08,316
They see what they can get, they
can make a lot of money on it.
423
00:20:08,462 --> 00:20:12,132
And when people bring up things like,
"Hey, you could damage the environment.
424
00:20:12,152 --> 00:20:14,852
We have no idea what the damage
you can do to the environment."
425
00:20:15,232 --> 00:20:17,059
And they'd just be like, "Well,
actually, we're not doing any damage."
426
00:20:17,136 --> 00:20:21,009
It's not as bad, which we don't know it's
not as bad, as doing it on a rainforest,
427
00:20:21,009 --> 00:20:22,259
'cause we can see the rainforest.
428
00:20:22,289 --> 00:20:25,826
We can see the damage we're doing to the
rainforest, we can see the damage and the
429
00:20:25,826 --> 00:20:27,726
human rights offenses that are happening.
430
00:20:27,726 --> 00:20:28,376
Like, we can see that.
431
00:20:28,376 --> 00:20:28,916
Those are bad.
432
00:20:28,926 --> 00:20:29,776
Those shouldn't happen.
433
00:20:30,012 --> 00:20:33,262
But it doesn't mean that we have to
go with the place that is less bad,
434
00:20:33,562 --> 00:20:34,972
even though it could still be bad.
435
00:20:34,972 --> 00:20:37,259
He never said it would be
bad, he just said it wouldn't
436
00:20:37,259 --> 00:20:39,009
be as bad as doing it on land.
437
00:20:39,446 --> 00:20:41,136
So why are we doing it anyway?
438
00:20:41,612 --> 00:20:45,172
And it's gonna be really interesting
because in my interview on Friday with
439
00:20:45,172 --> 00:20:48,946
Matthew Gianni, he talks about some
of the conclusions of the International
440
00:20:48,946 --> 00:20:52,089
Seabed Authority, which TMC is not
even a part of anymore because they're
441
00:20:52,089 --> 00:20:53,439
going with the Trump administration.
442
00:20:53,736 --> 00:20:55,546
They want to mine.
443
00:20:55,626 --> 00:20:56,686
They want to deep sea mine.
444
00:20:56,756 --> 00:20:57,509
That's their goal.
445
00:20:57,662 --> 00:20:58,552
They have investors.
446
00:20:58,582 --> 00:20:59,802
They wanna go do this thing.
447
00:21:00,199 --> 00:21:02,922
Whether they can do it sustainably
is gonna be another thing.
448
00:21:03,109 --> 00:21:06,259
At the beginning of the episode, I
talked about how they really pushed for
449
00:21:06,259 --> 00:21:08,619
a two-year ramp-up to deep sea mine.
450
00:21:08,649 --> 00:21:10,989
It never went through, but
I'll tell you what did.
451
00:21:11,319 --> 00:21:12,879
The stock price went up.
452
00:21:13,049 --> 00:21:16,039
It went through the roof, and
then it's slowly been going down.
453
00:21:16,069 --> 00:21:18,649
And so Barron has been losing
money because of the stock
454
00:21:18,649 --> 00:21:20,389
price, and he hasn't sold yet.
455
00:21:20,899 --> 00:21:24,359
Now, we're ramping up very quickly
again with the Trump administration
456
00:21:24,729 --> 00:21:29,059
and issuing leases or will be issuing
leases in the next coming weeks.
457
00:21:29,646 --> 00:21:33,616
That's gonna bring up the stock again, and
whether it's actually gonna be economic
458
00:21:33,646 --> 00:21:35,302
or not, Barron's gonna make money.
459
00:21:35,512 --> 00:21:38,612
He may or may not stay with the company
after he makes this money, I don't know.
460
00:21:38,919 --> 00:21:42,209
That'll be interesting to see and to
see if this actually will go through.
461
00:21:42,592 --> 00:21:45,482
Stay tuned for that episode in a
couple days where I talk to Matthew
462
00:21:45,482 --> 00:21:49,962
Gianni, who is the co-founder and
the political and policy advisor for
463
00:21:49,962 --> 00:21:53,202
the Deep Sea Conservation Coalition,
which I covered his story on Monday.
464
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,049
And tomorrow, stay tuned because we're
gonna be talking about some of Barron's
465
00:21:57,099 --> 00:22:03,032
indications or allegations that the deep
sea is just a desert, and there's really
466
00:22:03,032 --> 00:22:05,382
nothing to worry about in terms of damage.
467
00:22:05,382 --> 00:22:07,712
So we're gonna talk about that
tomorrow, whether it's true or not.
468
00:22:07,899 --> 00:22:10,872
Follow if you want it, if you don't
wanna miss tomorrow's episode or
469
00:22:10,872 --> 00:22:12,252
come back, whatever you want.
470
00:22:12,452 --> 00:22:13,222
Trying something new.
471
00:22:13,222 --> 00:22:14,232
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
472
00:22:14,332 --> 00:22:16,222
Hit me up in the socials
in the show notes.
473
00:22:16,356 --> 00:22:19,096
But other than that, I wanna thank you
so much for joining me on today's episode
474
00:22:19,156 --> 00:22:20,586
of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
475
00:22:20,726 --> 00:22:21,406
Have a great day.
476
00:22:21,436 --> 00:22:23,486
We'll talk to you next time,
and happy conservation.
