Plastic Is Still the Ocean's #1 Villain, with Dr. Judith Weis

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Do you know everything there needs
to know about marine pollution?

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Or do you even think, "Well,
maybe I shouldn't know."?

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But I think you should know about marine
pollution, because that is the topic

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of today's episode with Dr. Judith
Weis, who is a retired professor from

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Syracuse University, who has written two
editions of the book Marine Pollution.

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She's here to talk about her
second edition, where we talk about

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everything that has to do with
marine pollution, like what are the

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categories of marine pollution, and
the last one's really gonna be a

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surprise to you, but I agree with her.

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It is, uh, a category
for marine pollution.

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And what can be done?

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And we're gonna talk about some challenges
that we're facing now with microplastics,

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as well as some really good news stories
that we've had in the past with sewage

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treatment plants, and how that's helped,
really bring back and revitalize harbors

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as well as, water quality and bringing
back animals that weren't there or

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that were lost because of dirty water.

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So there's a lot of stuff that we discuss
here, uh, and we discuss everything

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in the book, so, uh, this is what
we're gonna be talking about here on

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the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Uh, if, this is the podcast, if you
want information on the ocean and you

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want to satisfy your, anxiety around
the ocean, like, "What's happening?

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Are we really protecting it?

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What about climate?

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I've got anxiety around that," this
is the place where we provide you with

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the knowledge of what's happening in
the world to help bring and reduce

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those, issues that we face, uh,
down, and hopefully give you a little

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bit more of an optimistic view.

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And plus, it gives you the information to
share with your family and friends to talk

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about it more, because that's what people
have found that is nice to do, uh, is

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they, feel better if they talk more about
what's happening in the ocean, and some

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of the, good new stuff that's happening.

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So we have some good news in this
one, as well as some challenges

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that we're still facing.

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But hopefully one day we will be
able to face those, especially

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when it comes to microplastics.

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Here is the interview with
Judith Weis, who's actually my

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first interview on this podcast.

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Some 2,000 episodes earlier,
she was my first, uh, episode.

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and, uh, it's always
great to have her back.

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This is her fourth time
back on the podcast.

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Always a delight.

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Enjoy the interview, and
we'll talk to you after.

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Hey, Judith.

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Welcome back to the How to
Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Are you ready to talk
about marine pollution?

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Absolutely.

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Anytime.

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Oh.

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All right.

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Look, this is a very special interview
'cause, Judith, you've been on, we were

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looking at it before, you've been on three
times, but you were my first episode ever.

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You were my first
interview, my first episode.

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This is over 2,000 episodes later.

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Wow.

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Uh, here you are again for
your fourth time on the show.

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I'm delighted to have you back on.

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And actually, what's kind of interesting
too is that our first episode, we

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talked about the first edition of
your book called Marine Pollution,

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and today we're gonna be talking
about the second edition of your book

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called Marine Pollution, and we're
gonna talk all just different things.

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But before we do, uh, Judith, why don't
you just remind the viewers and the

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listeners who you are and what you do?

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Okay.

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Well, I'm a retired, professor
from Rutgers, uh, marine biology.

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I taught marine biology and
environmental biology and

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stuff, undergrads and graduates.

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and, uh, as a professor I wrote
lots of scholarly papers, published

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in scholarly journals, and I
wrote a few technical books.

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But I've also, got interested in writing
books for the general public, which

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is a very different type of writing.

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And I learned that by collaborating
with someone who was a writer

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on my first book for the general
public about, salt marshes.

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And so I had a co-author.

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Uh, and then after that book, I sort
of felt, more comfortable on my own

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writing books, for the general public,
and I followed that up with a book about

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fishes, and then a book about crabs,
and then a book about marine pollution.

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And the first marine pollution
book came out about a decade ago,

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and as Andrew said, uh, I was on
this program talking about it.

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Then, couple years ago, uh, the editor
at Oxford University Press contacted

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me and said, "How about a second
edition updating the book?" I thought

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about that for a while and decided,
yeah, I'll do a second edition.

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So that's what we have now, is
the second edition, uh, that has

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all the chapters are updated.

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There's a whole new chapter
in here about microplastics.

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there may be some other
totally different stuff too.

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but the main thing is, uh, a new,
chapter on microplastics, and all

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the other chapters are updated.

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That's amazing.

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Uh, now, you know, obviously marine
pollution happens on and off.

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You know, we see it show up in
a variety of different ways.

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Can we just sort of remind the
listeners, for those who weren't

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there for the first episode, you know,
what are some of the major, marine

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pollution topics that you cover?

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Uh, you kinda mentioned a little
bit there, but that you cover in,

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in, in both books, that, you know-
Sure … one has been updated.

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Yes.

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the way the book is organized,
there's a chapter about for

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each major kind of pollution.

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So, nutrient pollution, that
is sewage, fertilizer runoff.

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This is stimulating algal blooms,
which can be harmful, which can

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cause deoxygenation of the water.

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Mm-hmm.

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So the first substantive chapter
is about nutrient pollution.

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And, uh, within each chapter Talk about
where does it come from, what does

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it do, and what can we do about it?

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So that theme- Yeah … runs
through all the chapters.

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and so that nutrients is the first one.

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second is, uh, metals, mercury,
cadmium, lead and so forth.

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Again, what are the sources?

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in this case it's mostly industry.

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and, we have some, you know,
major sites with metal pollution.

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Mm-hmm.

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And then the next chapter is oil.

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We know about oil spills.

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We haven't had any in quite a while.

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Knock

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on wood.

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Knock on wood.

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Yes.

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that's not just good luck.

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that's not just accidental.

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I mean, the effects of oil pollution and
there's an oil spill from a ship, and it

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comes ashore and it hits the shoreline
and causes this huge amount of damage and

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gets a lot of publicity- Mm-hmm … and
a lot of money trying to clean it up.

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they have cleaned up their act a lot
and the ships now have double hulls.

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the tankers.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so there's a whole lot done
so that we haven't had an oil

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spill in over a decade I think.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Uh, so that's oil.

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And then there's pesticides
and other organic chemicals.

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That's still with us.

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We still have pesticides being
sprayed not only in agricultural

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regions but, people's gardens-

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Mm-hmm

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uh, and their lawns and so forth.

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There's still pesticide spraying.

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And then it rains and that
runs off into local creeks and

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streams which then go down.

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And these tend to be chemicals
that don't break down very readily.

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Mm-hmm.

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The kinds of pesticides that are
mostly used now are, do break

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down within let's say weeks.

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Yeah.

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As opposed to the earlier generation
of pesticides like DDT, which

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still is infamous in history.

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Yeah.

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And its related chemicals that just
didn't break down and continued to

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poison things- Yeah … forever.

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Known as the forever chemicals, right?

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For, well, there are other forever
chemicals that aren't pesticides.

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Gotcha.

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Yeah.

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Uh, but they're still around.

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And then, marine debris.

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Trash, garbage, litter.

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Mm-hmm.

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you go on a shoreline, you'll find, oh,
hopefully you won't find any, but- Yeah.

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Many cases- But unfortunately … you
will find marine- Especially

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after, like, a storm or something, right?

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Yes.

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That's when you

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really find

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it.

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Stuff washes, Yeah … up on the shore.

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But there are also places where a lot
of the currents will take, and they

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have these floating garbage patches in
some places because the currents sort

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of move a lot- Mm-hmm … of this float.

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It's mostly plastic,
really, floating stuff.

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Plastic is a major, major problem.

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a lot of the other problems are
being reduced, but the plastic

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issue has not been dealt with.

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they keep making more,
and it never goes away.

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And it moves around, from one place
to another and accumulates where

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the currents take it and onshore.

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And, um, they talk about
chemical recycling of plastic,

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which, I don't buy that.

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they're trying.

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Yeah.

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And they also try to recycle, and that
is extremely difficult to recycle it.

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Plastic isn't a single thing.

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Mm-hmm.

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Polypropylene, polyethylene,
polystyrene, poly this and that.

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So there's very many different
chemicals that could be, all

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of which can be plastic, and
they come in different colors.

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And you can't recycle red ones
with green ones with yellow ones.

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So you have to have a separate recycling
thing for polyethylene that's red and

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polyethylene that's blue, et cetera.

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So recycling just doesn't work.

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They have been trying what they call
chemical recycling- Mm-hmm … where

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they melt it down and that is
releasing lots of toxic chemicals.

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So, uh, I would consider plastic
currently the number one villain

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Yeah

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…
in the story that has not
been, dealt with really.

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I know plastic's been around for a
while, but the real manufacturing

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of plastics, like there's been an,
increase over a number of decades.

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is it just the political power
that these companies have, and

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that's why it hasn't been dealt?

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'Cause like, I mean, when we had chemicals
as a problem, back in the '70s and

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'80s and, and so forth, that took a few
decades to kinda clean up and get with

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the program before we really knew what the
damage was and we were able to fix this.

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and others as well, other types of,
pollution that you've mentioned as well,

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where we've been able to, like oil, like
you said, they have the double hulls.

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There've been more regulations,
and there have been more

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protections based off of that.

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what do you think it is with plastics
that we haven't seen movement

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even though we've seen it for
probably about five or six decades?

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Oh,

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yes.

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I mean,

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more than that.

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Yeah.

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About 1950-

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And even the increase over that time

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…
plastics sort of came in around 1950s.

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Mm-hmm.

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And have been increasing.

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The increased manufacture and the
inability to recycle, just makes

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the problem continue to get worse.

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Yeah.

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and the problem being the various
different chemical natures that can't

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be recycled together and the different
colors that can't be recycled together.

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You'd have to have, a few dozen recycling-
Yeah … streams- It's expensive.

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Yeah … to try to do this.

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and the companies are not
receptive, not trying to

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cooperate, in denial and so forth.

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Yeah.

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it's interesting 'cause like
in Canada, over the last few

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years we've banned specific,

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Types

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single-use plastics, right?

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So we've, you know,
cutlery, checkout bags-

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Right

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food service, so expanded, polystyrene,
extruded polystyrene, polyvinyl chloride,

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carbon black, oxo-degradable plastics.

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Hmm.

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clamshell containers, lidded,
containers, you know, boxes-

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00:13:14,019 --> 00:13:17,969
Yeah, lots of those have been
banned in the States also.

241
00:13:18,819 --> 00:13:19,119
Yeah.

242
00:13:19,199 --> 00:13:19,399
Um,

243
00:13:19,969 --> 00:13:25,559
but then another problem with the
plastics is they break down into

244
00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,979
these microscopic microplastics.

245
00:13:28,859 --> 00:13:29,339
Yes.

246
00:13:29,549 --> 00:13:33,439
which, you know, are
defined as five millimeters-

247
00:13:34,319 --> 00:13:34,459
Mm-hmm

248
00:13:34,479 --> 00:13:35,279
…
or less.

249
00:13:36,179 --> 00:13:40,869
And the ones that are one to five
millimeters are visible, but the

250
00:13:40,869 --> 00:13:43,629
vast majority of them are invisible.

251
00:13:43,639 --> 00:13:44,819
You're not seeing them.

252
00:13:45,369 --> 00:13:48,489
But they're all over
the place, everywhere.

253
00:13:49,289 --> 00:13:54,559
and they are in our food, they're
in our bodies, they're everywhere.

254
00:13:55,449 --> 00:14:01,419
And, in addition to the plastic
molecule, they contain toxic chemicals

255
00:14:01,969 --> 00:14:03,809
that are associated with them.

256
00:14:03,979 --> 00:14:04,459
Mm-hmm.

257
00:14:04,579 --> 00:14:07,369
And they are ubiquitous.

258
00:14:07,579 --> 00:14:11,139
I mean, if you look for them
anywhere, you will find them.

259
00:14:11,549 --> 00:14:12,049
Mm-hmm.

260
00:14:12,109 --> 00:14:16,489
Including in people's brains,
hearts- Yeah … livers, et cetera.

261
00:14:17,175 --> 00:14:23,035
Uh, and everything you eat, and
the air you breathe, et cetera.

262
00:14:23,845 --> 00:14:30,035
and, you know, there's a lot
of study going on to, uh, try

263
00:14:30,065 --> 00:14:32,055
to find out their effects.

264
00:14:32,345 --> 00:14:32,865
Mm-hmm.

265
00:14:32,865 --> 00:14:38,662
And some problems with the
research is to get controls.

266
00:14:39,392 --> 00:14:40,732
You know, you do a
scientific- 'Cause they're so,

267
00:14:40,732 --> 00:14:42,782
they're everywhere, so it's
hard to get the reference.

268
00:14:42,782 --> 00:14:43,072
Yeah.

269
00:14:43,072 --> 00:14:45,082
How do you find the control?

270
00:14:45,082 --> 00:14:45,132
Yeah.

271
00:14:45,422 --> 00:14:46,222
When, you know?

272
00:14:46,912 --> 00:14:50,882
So they have these ultra clean
rooms in some laboratories

273
00:14:51,212 --> 00:14:52,482
trying to do the research.

274
00:14:52,802 --> 00:14:53,062
Yeah.

275
00:14:53,612 --> 00:14:54,560
But they're in

276
00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:54,895
the air.

277
00:14:54,895 --> 00:14:55,062
Yeah.

278
00:14:55,062 --> 00:14:57,142
They're gonna settle onto everything.

279
00:14:57,562 --> 00:15:04,282
So it makes the research
very tricky to, uh, find some

280
00:15:04,778 --> 00:15:10,458
a place where there aren't microplastics
to compare, you know- Yeah … response

281
00:15:10,468 --> 00:15:15,145
of an animal or plant or whatever
you're looking at, and have a control.

282
00:15:15,475 --> 00:15:15,815
Yeah.

283
00:15:16,361 --> 00:15:20,103
I mean, you could have a control
that has maybe less And a

284
00:15:20,103 --> 00:15:21,413
higher amount- Right … in the-

285
00:15:21,413 --> 00:15:21,783
Right

286
00:15:22,003 --> 00:15:23,043
…
experimental

287
00:15:23,053 --> 00:15:23,503
Like a minimal, yeah.

288
00:15:23,613 --> 00:15:25,173
But, it's difficult.

289
00:15:25,223 --> 00:15:26,543
it's really difficult.

290
00:15:26,573 --> 00:15:33,083
And they're still working on
developing proper lab procedures and

291
00:15:33,083 --> 00:15:40,603
techniques to do, kind of experimental
studies properly in scientific labs.

292
00:15:41,163 --> 00:15:41,593
Yeah.

293
00:15:41,780 --> 00:15:41,860
Um-

294
00:15:41,860 --> 00:15:44,920
Well, a- and it's interesting too, 'cause
a lot of these, as you mentioned, like,

295
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,950
these, not only these microplastics
cause a lot of problems, like physical

296
00:15:48,950 --> 00:15:52,470
problems, but as they break down,
they break down into chemicals,

297
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,107
and they start to leach out- Right

298
00:15:54,107 --> 00:15:54,700
these, these chemicals
that have- They have

299
00:15:55,150 --> 00:15:55,760
chemicals.

300
00:15:56,450 --> 00:16:03,770
the microplastics not only have
chemicals in them, chemicals from

301
00:16:03,780 --> 00:16:07,730
the surrounding air or water- Bind
to it … will glom onto them.

302
00:16:08,490 --> 00:16:14,270
So you have chemicals on them and
another set of chemicals in them.

303
00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:16,100
so it's a very complicated business.

304
00:16:16,670 --> 00:16:17,450
Yeah.

305
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,730
Well, and I think what happens is
that affects our systems, like when

306
00:16:20,730 --> 00:16:23,900
it gets into us, when it gets into-
Ah … the environment, those leach out.

307
00:16:23,910 --> 00:16:23,940
Yes.

308
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:25,260
Those bind to something else.

309
00:16:25,260 --> 00:16:28,680
They'll bind to parts of our bodies,
organs- Sure … things like that.

310
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,610
And over time, as that accumulates,
we get the bioaccumulation that we see

311
00:16:32,610 --> 00:16:34,050
that happens in along the food web.

312
00:16:34,050 --> 00:16:34,310
Right.

313
00:16:34,310 --> 00:16:34,390
I

314
00:16:34,610 --> 00:16:36,270
mean, this- You know?

315
00:16:36,270 --> 00:16:42,330
… this is, you know, the, the new chapter
in this issh- you know, edition of the

316
00:16:42,330 --> 00:16:51,177
book because back, a dozen years ago when
the first edition came out, microplastics

317
00:16:51,197 --> 00:16:54,117
were just beginning to get studied.

318
00:16:54,927 --> 00:16:58,097
And- Yeah … you know, the
knowledge was just beginning.

319
00:16:58,737 --> 00:17:05,017
And now, it's, a huge area of
study, and there's, huge numbers

320
00:17:05,017 --> 00:17:07,297
of papers coming out every week-

321
00:17:07,687 --> 00:17:08,097
Mm-hmm

322
00:17:08,097 --> 00:17:09,647
about microplastics.

323
00:17:10,736 --> 00:17:13,386
I don't know how long I
should spend on plastic.

324
00:17:13,386 --> 00:17:14,636
Well, I

325
00:17:14,776 --> 00:17:16,706
mean, I think it's, I think it's
important too, because like we're

326
00:17:16,706 --> 00:17:18,696
not seeing a stoppage in the use.

327
00:17:18,726 --> 00:17:21,886
We're not seeing a stoppage in you
know, getting these out into the marine

328
00:17:21,886 --> 00:17:23,456
system, let alone into the air- Or

329
00:17:23,796 --> 00:17:24,266
anywhere else

330
00:17:24,266 --> 00:17:25,256
or anywhere else, you know?

331
00:17:25,256 --> 00:17:26,236
Or anywhere else.

332
00:17:26,256 --> 00:17:31,036
It's just- Yeah … you know,
there's no regulations to

333
00:17:31,696 --> 00:17:35,216
reduce manufacture or whatever.

334
00:17:35,846 --> 00:17:36,126
Yeah.

335
00:17:37,001 --> 00:17:40,331
But the, policymakers know
of these types of, problems.

336
00:17:40,341 --> 00:17:44,681
So in your opinion, like, what's
the holdup in terms of putting

337
00:17:44,681 --> 00:17:46,081
these regulations in place?

338
00:17:46,101 --> 00:17:49,061
what is the argument against
putting these regulations in place?

339
00:17:49,818 --> 00:17:54,358
I'm not sure, what a valid
argument against it would be.

340
00:17:54,728 --> 00:17:54,988
Right.

341
00:17:55,108 --> 00:17:58,478
But the fact that something is ubiquitous-

342
00:17:58,668 --> 00:17:59,138
Mm-hmm

343
00:17:59,601 --> 00:18:06,035
probably makes it difficult to try
to regulate something That's in

344
00:18:06,255 --> 00:18:10,025
everywhere in the air, everywhere in
the water, everywhere in the body.

345
00:18:10,315 --> 00:18:10,815
Mm-hmm.

346
00:18:10,925 --> 00:18:15,781
How do you say there's a limit
and then how do you enforce that?

347
00:18:16,491 --> 00:18:19,965
But I mean, if it's everywhere and
we know where it starts from by the

348
00:18:19,965 --> 00:18:24,215
manufacturing of these, is it not
better to start, like, putting in

349
00:18:24,215 --> 00:18:26,115
these types of bans or reductions or

350
00:18:26,115 --> 00:18:26,335
quotas?

351
00:18:26,335 --> 00:18:26,695
You could put in

352
00:18:27,425 --> 00:18:32,365
reductions, but, uh, the
industry's not gonna tolerate it.

353
00:18:32,365 --> 00:18:34,045
Have they done that in Canada?

354
00:18:34,765 --> 00:18:35,905
Not that I know of, no.

355
00:18:35,905 --> 00:18:36,985
The only thing I've seen was this

356
00:18:36,985 --> 00:18:37,605
ban.

357
00:18:37,605 --> 00:18:38,095
Have they done that anywhere?

358
00:18:38,125 --> 00:18:39,085
I don't think so.

359
00:18:39,145 --> 00:18:40,075
Not that I know of.

360
00:18:40,075 --> 00:18:41,785
I think we're moving towards that.

361
00:18:41,965 --> 00:18:46,331
in Canada, from the federal government
perspective, they've consider- they

362
00:18:46,331 --> 00:18:53,861
put it in the, Canadian Environmental
Qualities Act, that plastic is toxic.

363
00:18:54,231 --> 00:18:55,511
All plastic is toxic.

364
00:18:55,761 --> 00:18:56,021
Right.

365
00:18:56,031 --> 00:19:00,091
and from that, they came up with
this first bill where these,

366
00:19:00,151 --> 00:19:02,801
what I mentioned was, these
single-use plastics were banned.

367
00:19:03,151 --> 00:19:06,691
and then what they're doing is they're
looking at a registry, creating a

368
00:19:06,691 --> 00:19:11,931
registry of who creates what plastic
and tracking where that plastic ends up.

369
00:19:12,131 --> 00:19:16,001
and so, like, the supply chain of after,
not only during manufacturing, but

370
00:19:16,061 --> 00:19:21,271
after purchase by, you know, retailers
and so forth who use them and then the

371
00:19:21,271 --> 00:19:23,161
consumers, and then where those end up.

372
00:19:23,621 --> 00:19:26,631
rumor has it that they're gonna start
putting the companies responsible

373
00:19:26,631 --> 00:19:29,081
in the cleanup, 'cause obviously
the recycling's not working.

374
00:19:29,091 --> 00:19:29,231
Well, I- But

375
00:19:29,231 --> 00:19:29,871
that,

376
00:19:29,871 --> 00:19:31,341
that's a long ways away, I think.

377
00:19:31,341 --> 00:19:31,611
I

378
00:19:31,611 --> 00:19:32,971
hope that happens.

379
00:19:33,081 --> 00:19:33,591
Um- Yeah

380
00:19:33,961 --> 00:19:36,281
…
nothing's gonna happen in this country.

381
00:19:36,341 --> 00:19:36,571
Right.

382
00:19:36,581 --> 00:19:37,291
Not anytime soon anyway.

383
00:19:37,331 --> 00:19:37,541
Our

384
00:19:37,711 --> 00:19:40,981
current administration-
No … nothing is gonna happen.

385
00:19:41,111 --> 00:19:41,601
Yeah.

386
00:19:42,171 --> 00:19:42,241
I mean,

387
00:19:42,241 --> 00:19:44,101
of course- Well, I mean, what was
interesting though is the chemical

388
00:19:44,101 --> 00:19:47,891
companies that create this and the
fossil fuel companies did try to fight

389
00:19:48,191 --> 00:19:51,081
the label that all plastic is toxic.

390
00:19:51,491 --> 00:19:56,121
Uh, and they, overturned, or they
appealed and they won their appeal,

391
00:19:56,601 --> 00:20:01,371
against the government, and then, the,
uh, environmental, like the NGOs that

392
00:20:01,601 --> 00:20:06,011
first brought it to the government, uh,
and supported the bill, appealed that

393
00:20:06,021 --> 00:20:08,135
decision and the appeal got overturned.

394
00:20:08,135 --> 00:20:09,445
So it's back in.

395
00:20:09,455 --> 00:20:11,445
It never stopped being
in, but it's back in.

396
00:20:11,445 --> 00:20:14,945
And, and you see it, it's reduced
in terms of these six plastics, but

397
00:20:14,945 --> 00:20:17,805
there's still a lot to go, as you
mentioned, because it's everywhere.

398
00:20:17,815 --> 00:20:20,365
You hope that eventually we
come up with another material

399
00:20:20,375 --> 00:20:23,325
that will not be as, as, uh-

400
00:20:23,365 --> 00:20:23,775
Yeah.

401
00:20:23,975 --> 00:20:24,935
And you know, we hope- … as toxic

402
00:20:24,935 --> 00:20:29,035
we'll have an administration
sometime in this country that will-

403
00:20:29,195 --> 00:20:29,535
Yeah

404
00:20:29,665 --> 00:20:32,005
…
enforce the environmental legislation.

405
00:20:33,355 --> 00:20:38,597
You know, how do you deal with, you know-
pollution in the Great Lakes, you know?

406
00:20:38,627 --> 00:20:39,097
Yeah.

407
00:20:39,657 --> 00:20:44,667
You've got good regs in Canada, and we
have pollution coming out on our side, so.

408
00:20:44,677 --> 00:20:45,147
Yeah.

409
00:20:45,667 --> 00:20:46,087
Yeah.

410
00:20:46,087 --> 00:20:48,047
I mean, it's always interesting,
especially when we look at, like,

411
00:20:48,047 --> 00:20:51,577
these binational agreements when one
country… I mean, I, right now, as

412
00:20:51,577 --> 00:20:55,750
we're recording this, I think, uh, one
of the countries is looking at renaming a

413
00:20:55,750 --> 00:20:57,170
Great Lake to just to kind of- Yes, they

414
00:20:57,370 --> 00:21:01,450
wanted to change the name of, uh, Trump
wants to rename Ontario something, uh-

415
00:21:01,490 --> 00:21:05,470
Great Lake, uh, to Great, to Great
America or Lake America, I think it is.

416
00:21:05,750 --> 00:21:05,780
Yes.

417
00:21:05,810 --> 00:21:08,550
So I think there's some- And there's
so- … different battles being done here

418
00:21:08,550 --> 00:21:11,230
than, than regular pollution, uh, battles

419
00:21:11,230 --> 00:21:16,210
So appalling, everything- Mm-hmm … that
comes out from that administration.

420
00:21:16,380 --> 00:21:16,490
And, uh,

421
00:21:16,490 --> 00:21:20,250
so- Now, so if people, I guess the, the
question I have here, uh, before I, 'cause

422
00:21:20,250 --> 00:21:24,300
I wanna move on to, uh, another topic
in the book with the chemicals and, some

423
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:25,700
positive stuff that comes out of there.

424
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:30,490
But with the, microplastics, there are
a lot of organizations that are working

425
00:21:30,780 --> 00:21:35,180
to, you know, help reduce the amount,
ban it from getting, like, and just

426
00:21:35,180 --> 00:21:38,400
basically reducing it from getting out
into the ocean, getting out into the

427
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,100
atmosphere and these kinds of things.

428
00:21:40,647 --> 00:21:43,757
some people feel a little helpless
when they learn about these things.

429
00:21:43,757 --> 00:21:46,197
And then, uh, obviously
this is a complicated issue.

430
00:21:46,587 --> 00:21:49,287
people are profiting off
of it and it's everywhere.

431
00:21:49,793 --> 00:21:53,683
Like, how do you think, like, people
who are listening to this podcast can

432
00:21:53,753 --> 00:21:58,063
get information or follow somebody
who's trying to do stuff or support

433
00:21:58,073 --> 00:22:05,273
organizations who are trying to help in
this situation so that they can kinda tame

434
00:22:05,273 --> 00:22:07,363
down their plastic anxiety, if you will?

435
00:22:07,413 --> 00:22:08,833
just like climate anxiety
and ocean anxiety.

436
00:22:08,843 --> 00:22:09,263
I'm not

437
00:22:09,293 --> 00:22:15,463
sure if, you know, can reduce
the anxiety, but, beach cleanups.

438
00:22:15,463 --> 00:22:19,083
There's a lot of organizations
that do beach cleanups.

439
00:22:19,083 --> 00:22:23,903
And I think participating in a
beach cleanup, you know, it's mostly

440
00:22:23,913 --> 00:22:28,723
plastic that- Right … you're
picking up off the beaches, um, can

441
00:22:28,733 --> 00:22:30,803
make you feel better about things.

442
00:22:30,803 --> 00:22:31,003
Mm-hmm.

443
00:22:31,003 --> 00:22:31,023
You

444
00:22:31,083 --> 00:22:33,903
know, you're doing something
good for the environment.

445
00:22:34,593 --> 00:22:39,973
And by helping in a beach cleanup, I think
you can, uh, reduce your own personal

446
00:22:39,983 --> 00:22:42,913
use of plastics whenever possible.

447
00:22:43,353 --> 00:22:46,843
Although, sometimes you
can buy juice in a glass-

448
00:22:47,533 --> 00:22:47,873
Yeah

449
00:22:47,953 --> 00:22:50,133
…
rather than a plastic container.

450
00:22:50,363 --> 00:22:50,723
Yeah.

451
00:22:51,043 --> 00:22:56,329
You know, you can do personal in terms
of your shopping what you're doing

452
00:22:56,739 --> 00:22:57,089
Yeah

453
00:22:57,702 --> 00:22:58,112
Of

454
00:22:58,625 --> 00:22:59,795
What about organizations?

455
00:22:59,795 --> 00:23:02,215
Are there any organizations
they can follow or support

456
00:23:02,215 --> 00:23:02,715
that are working towards- Well,

457
00:23:02,715 --> 00:23:07,765
I, I think the, you know, the big,
uh, national, environmental groups,

458
00:23:07,775 --> 00:23:12,615
Sierra Club, for example, is an,
environmental organization that has

459
00:23:12,615 --> 00:23:17,059
a lot of individual members active.

460
00:23:17,349 --> 00:23:17,749
Mm-hmm

461
00:23:17,799 --> 00:23:22,749
Unlike EDF or NRDC, which
is run by the staff.

462
00:23:23,269 --> 00:23:28,749
Individual members pay dues but don't
really get opportunity to work on stuff.

463
00:23:29,249 --> 00:23:33,669
But Sierra Club and Audubon
are ones where there are local

464
00:23:33,669 --> 00:23:37,359
chapters and members can do stuff.

465
00:23:37,879 --> 00:23:38,369
Gotcha

466
00:23:38,949 --> 00:23:44,999
but there are then other smaller
organizations that will sponsor beach

467
00:23:45,029 --> 00:23:47,039
cleanups and- Mm-hmm … things like that.

468
00:23:47,839 --> 00:23:50,839
Uh- And it's, and, and I should mention
too that, one of the things that I

469
00:23:50,839 --> 00:23:55,779
was discussing on a call with, Chad
Nelsen, who's the Surfrider CEO, is

470
00:23:55,779 --> 00:24:00,109
sometimes when you go to do these beach
cleanups, you get to meet other people

471
00:24:00,109 --> 00:24:01,819
who are out there to do the same thing.

472
00:24:02,089 --> 00:24:04,949
Right And so you, come for, to
help clean up the ocean, but you

473
00:24:04,949 --> 00:24:07,609
stay for the community, which
I think a lot of people are-

474
00:24:07,649 --> 00:24:07,969
Yes

475
00:24:07,969 --> 00:24:08,559
…
missing.

476
00:24:08,569 --> 00:24:12,619
You know, in-person events where
you can meet people face-to-face.

477
00:24:12,619 --> 00:24:17,069
Yeah You can, bond over your love
for the coastline, the oceans, uh,

478
00:24:17,069 --> 00:24:18,759
and stay in the positive effects.

479
00:24:18,789 --> 00:24:22,339
Maybe not in the comments section of a
post that's an environmental post which

480
00:24:22,339 --> 00:24:26,549
you don't wanna be in sometimes, and
more into, like, hanging around with the

481
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:31,509
people who have the same values of the
ocean- Yes … of the, of nature- This is

482
00:24:31,759 --> 00:24:32,589
all good … right?

483
00:24:33,009 --> 00:24:33,329
Yeah.

484
00:24:33,329 --> 00:24:33,375
Yeah.

485
00:24:33,375 --> 00:24:33,743
This is all good I think that helps.

486
00:24:33,743 --> 00:24:33,789
Yeah.

487
00:24:33,789 --> 00:24:35,372
Now, one thing I wanted to kinda bring up.

488
00:24:35,512 --> 00:24:37,169
Uh, you're a resident of, New York City.

489
00:24:37,409 --> 00:24:41,899
and we've seen a lot of progress in
the water quality in New York City

490
00:24:41,909 --> 00:24:44,029
Harbor over the last number of decades.

491
00:24:44,029 --> 00:24:44,829
New York Harbor,

492
00:24:44,909 --> 00:24:45,209
yes.

493
00:24:45,209 --> 00:24:45,559
Yeah.

494
00:24:45,589 --> 00:24:50,729
Now, can you just talk about the history
of the harbor in terms of the chemical

495
00:24:50,729 --> 00:24:55,049
pollution that we saw, the loss of animals
you know, that would disappear, and then

496
00:24:55,059 --> 00:25:00,429
sort of the what's happened since then,
and you know, what led to those animals

497
00:25:00,429 --> 00:25:02,199
coming back and seeing a cleanup of that?

498
00:25:02,369 --> 00:25:02,969
Sure.

499
00:25:03,265 --> 00:25:10,725
I mean, when I was a kid, I also lived in
Manhattan, and, close to the Hudson River,

500
00:25:11,282 --> 00:25:14,332
and nobody would wanna go down there.

501
00:25:14,412 --> 00:25:14,432
Mm-hmm.

502
00:25:14,442 --> 00:25:17,152
I mean, it was a smelly, awful place.

503
00:25:17,789 --> 00:25:19,809
There was raw sewage going in.

504
00:25:20,239 --> 00:25:23,889
That's why- Mm-hmm … it was a
smelly, awful place, because it was raw

505
00:25:23,909 --> 00:25:29,059
sewage, and this was the Hudson River
and New York Harbor, the whole thing.

506
00:25:29,620 --> 00:25:37,367
Then in 1970-ish, uh, Congress passed
the Clean Water Act, and one of the

507
00:25:37,367 --> 00:25:42,917
things from the Clean Water Act required
building sewage treatment plants.

508
00:25:43,593 --> 00:25:47,763
And there had been no sewage
treatment plants for the whole

509
00:25:47,963 --> 00:25:50,143
upper west part of Manhattan.

510
00:25:50,563 --> 00:25:55,623
So what went in the toilet went
right into the Hudson River.

511
00:25:56,313 --> 00:25:57,623
That's how it was- Like raw sewage,

512
00:25:57,663 --> 00:25:58,013
basically

513
00:25:58,053 --> 00:26:01,953
…
raw sewage went right into the
Hudson River, into New York Harbor,

514
00:26:01,953 --> 00:26:03,433
and that's why nothing lived there.

515
00:26:03,923 --> 00:26:04,393
Mm-hmm.

516
00:26:04,893 --> 00:26:12,520
So then they built a sewage plant on the
upper, West Side, 150- Do you know when

517
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:13,020
that was?

518
00:26:14,420 --> 00:26:15,140
in- Like

519
00:26:15,140 --> 00:26:15,980
'
70s,

520
00:26:16,567 --> 00:26:17,637
'
after the '70s.

521
00:26:17,637 --> 00:26:20,437
It took a while to get the
funds together to build it.

522
00:26:20,437 --> 00:26:22,027
It was probably in the '80s.

523
00:26:22,297 --> 00:26:22,687
Gotcha

524
00:26:23,037 --> 00:26:29,417
…
and now the sewage from the
whole West Side of Manhattan goes

525
00:26:29,427 --> 00:26:33,567
there and gets treated before
going into the Hudson River.

526
00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:42,200
And gradually, the river that
nobody wanted to go near, - the, the

527
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,370
riverfront was industrial anyway.

528
00:26:45,220 --> 00:26:51,340
Um, as the water quality improved,
they then built a walkway.

529
00:26:51,370 --> 00:26:54,930
You can walk along the river
now, 'cause it's not smelly.

530
00:26:55,260 --> 00:26:55,750
It's nice.

531
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:56,930
You know?

532
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,180
You wouldn't wanna walk, you
wouldn't have wanted- Who would?

533
00:26:59,470 --> 00:27:00,080
Yeah, why would you want to?

534
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,810
You wouldn't have wanted to
walk along it in, back then.

535
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:04,810
Yeah.

536
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,010
And so there's, a walkway, through
the whole West Side of Manhattan

537
00:27:09,010 --> 00:27:11,670
from the Battery all the way up.

538
00:27:11,970 --> 00:27:15,490
I think you may be able to even walk
all the way around Manhattan on the

539
00:27:15,490 --> 00:27:17,270
East River and the Harlem River.

540
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:19,390
I'm not sure they all-
Yes … connect, but they might.

541
00:27:19,950 --> 00:27:20,200
Yeah.

542
00:27:20,350 --> 00:27:25,530
If you had a long day, you could
perhaps- … walk all the way around

543
00:27:25,577 --> 00:27:27,437
the perimeter of Manhattan Island.

544
00:27:27,457 --> 00:27:27,487
Mm-hmm.

545
00:27:28,113 --> 00:27:35,963
But anyway, so over time, the smelly,
stinky river and harbor got better.

546
00:27:36,553 --> 00:27:36,943
Yeah.

547
00:27:37,013 --> 00:27:42,303
Now we have sewage treatment, it got
better, and the water quality… I

548
00:27:42,303 --> 00:27:47,883
mean, if it rains a lot and you get this
combined sewer overflow, not so good.

549
00:27:48,233 --> 00:27:48,513
Mm-hmm.

550
00:27:48,513 --> 00:27:56,460
But you get moderate rain, you get a
drought, the water quality is swimmable.

551
00:27:56,460 --> 00:27:57,220
Yeah.

552
00:27:57,220 --> 00:27:57,550
Yeah.

553
00:27:57,910 --> 00:28:07,135
And they have not built any access, you
know, ladders and things to make a beach

554
00:28:07,135 --> 00:28:10,875
or whatever for people to swim in yet.

555
00:28:10,935 --> 00:28:15,715
I predict that will count, that,
that will come in the future.

556
00:28:16,205 --> 00:28:21,615
Like in Chicago, there's high
buildings, there's a drive,

557
00:28:21,955 --> 00:28:23,375
and there's Lake Michigan.

558
00:28:23,915 --> 00:28:24,335
Mm-hmm.

559
00:28:24,405 --> 00:28:27,755
And it's downtown Chicago,
which is, big city too.

560
00:28:28,005 --> 00:28:28,815
Huge city, yeah.

561
00:28:28,815 --> 00:28:28,915
Yeah.

562
00:28:28,915 --> 00:28:30,595
and, people go swimming.

563
00:28:30,855 --> 00:28:31,645
In the downtown.

564
00:28:31,655 --> 00:28:31,675
Yeah.

565
00:28:31,775 --> 00:28:33,995
Downtown on Lake Michigan.

566
00:28:34,195 --> 00:28:34,635
Mm-hmm.

567
00:28:35,351 --> 00:28:38,671
Which was a big shock to me
when I first went to Chicago.

568
00:28:38,721 --> 00:28:41,121
I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

569
00:28:41,811 --> 00:28:43,771
Driving along the waterfront-

570
00:28:43,801 --> 00:28:44,311
Yeah … and

571
00:28:44,311 --> 00:28:47,371
there's tall buildings on one side,
and there's a beach, and there's

572
00:28:47,371 --> 00:28:49,261
people swimming on the other side.

573
00:28:49,261 --> 00:28:49,531
Yeah.

574
00:28:49,531 --> 00:28:49,891
Yeah.

575
00:28:49,901 --> 00:28:49,921
It

576
00:28:50,281 --> 00:28:51,211
was wonderful.

577
00:28:51,211 --> 00:28:52,411
I've c- I mean, it's a shock

578
00:28:52,721 --> 00:28:54,931
we have a lot of people, you know,
from the Toronto area, from the

579
00:28:54,931 --> 00:28:58,011
area that I live in, that will go to
Chicago, visit, 'cause it's a quick

580
00:28:58,011 --> 00:28:59,571
flight, just like it is to New York.

581
00:28:59,581 --> 00:29:01,821
Um, and they are always amazed.

582
00:29:01,861 --> 00:29:03,631
the downtown looks so beautiful.

583
00:29:03,631 --> 00:29:08,031
Like, in, Toronto, uh, we don't
necessarily have the same water quality.

584
00:29:08,031 --> 00:29:09,951
You know, I don't know, like,
there are some places where you

585
00:29:09,951 --> 00:29:12,891
can go swimming, but you know, we
have our, water quality problems.

586
00:29:13,231 --> 00:29:16,391
I haven't been to Chicago yet,
uh, but it apparently it's like

587
00:29:16,391 --> 00:29:17,871
it's night and day when you go.

588
00:29:17,891 --> 00:29:18,511
It's wonderful.

589
00:29:18,511 --> 00:29:18,951
Yeah.

590
00:29:19,091 --> 00:29:19,361
Yeah.

591
00:29:19,361 --> 00:29:21,391
Uh, and New York will be there one day.

592
00:29:21,471 --> 00:29:21,881
Yep.

593
00:29:21,881 --> 00:29:22,091
Yep.

594
00:29:22,091 --> 00:29:24,001
I really think New York will be there.

595
00:29:24,461 --> 00:29:29,101
Um, we're not there yet, but
we're not what it used to be.

596
00:29:29,321 --> 00:29:32,775
Well, it's, it's, changed so much that
you saw the menhaden start to come back.

597
00:29:32,775 --> 00:29:33,055
We saw-

598
00:29:33,055 --> 00:29:34,645
The menhaden, the whales are back … the

599
00:29:34,655 --> 00:29:35,255
whales are back.

600
00:29:35,255 --> 00:29:35,365
You

601
00:29:35,415 --> 00:29:36,835
can go whale watching-

602
00:29:37,145 --> 00:29:37,535
Yeah

603
00:29:37,555 --> 00:29:38,305
…
from Brooklyn.

604
00:29:38,555 --> 00:29:38,755
Yeah.

605
00:29:39,195 --> 00:29:40,875
And we're gonna do that next month.

606
00:29:40,905 --> 00:29:41,825
That's awesome.

607
00:29:41,905 --> 00:29:44,285
there's a whale watch company in Brooklyn.

608
00:29:44,325 --> 00:29:45,645
Yeah, Gotham Whale.

609
00:29:45,645 --> 00:29:45,685
Is it?

610
00:29:45,685 --> 00:29:46,255
Is that- Gotham

611
00:29:46,345 --> 00:29:46,865
Whale.

612
00:29:46,895 --> 00:29:47,745
Gotham Whale, yeah.

613
00:29:47,755 --> 00:29:50,345
And, we have a date to go out.

614
00:29:50,825 --> 00:29:52,805
We did that last year also.

615
00:29:53,065 --> 00:29:53,765
Fantastic.

616
00:29:53,795 --> 00:29:58,825
And you go out into New York
Harbor, and there's humpbacks

617
00:29:59,435 --> 00:30:02,555
and sometimes fin whales and s-

618
00:30:02,565 --> 00:30:02,975
Yeah

619
00:30:03,385 --> 00:30:04,855
sometimes dolphins.

620
00:30:04,915 --> 00:30:06,345
Mostly humpbacks, though.

621
00:30:06,355 --> 00:30:06,805
Yeah.

622
00:30:06,915 --> 00:30:09,035
Well, it's beautiful to see those
humpbacks- Oh, and so- … especially

623
00:30:09,035 --> 00:30:10,595
back in that area, right?

624
00:30:10,865 --> 00:30:12,045
It's such a delight.

625
00:30:12,335 --> 00:30:15,275
A very satisfying, fun thing to do.

626
00:30:15,305 --> 00:30:18,995
Well, and I, and I think, that's kinda
what I, what I want people to feel is

627
00:30:18,995 --> 00:30:24,125
that when there are multiple actions
taken, you know, once we discover

628
00:30:24,125 --> 00:30:29,145
that there's a problem and there are
not only regulations, but, laws put

629
00:30:29,145 --> 00:30:33,855
in place to say, "Hey, you know, we
need to control this so that we have

630
00:30:33,865 --> 00:30:37,745
better health in our area, better
water quality." it's an important

631
00:30:37,745 --> 00:30:40,965
part, especially with the New York
Harbor, it's such an important harbor.

632
00:30:41,605 --> 00:30:45,938
But in places all over the, the world,
not just the US but Canada, Mexico,

633
00:30:46,038 --> 00:30:50,008
other continents, other places, when
you put action in place, it works.

634
00:30:50,058 --> 00:30:52,038
Like, when you put policies
in place, it works.

635
00:30:52,068 --> 00:30:56,768
And it's just a matter of looking at what
scientists like yourself, Judith, and

636
00:30:56,768 --> 00:31:01,618
your colleagues from the past and even
now are saying and are identifying it.

637
00:31:01,981 --> 00:31:06,731
to get these lawmakers to understand
and to say, "Hey, there's a problem."

638
00:31:07,121 --> 00:31:11,231
So if we kinda compare and contrast the
work that's been done in the New York

639
00:31:11,231 --> 00:31:15,051
Harbor, which is a lot of people, a lot
of powerful people that live there, a

640
00:31:15,051 --> 00:31:18,831
lot of, companies that were on that,
uh, industrial companies that were on

641
00:31:18,831 --> 00:31:22,091
that, that harbor, that were working
along, that had buildings along there.

642
00:31:22,981 --> 00:31:27,135
what could we learn from that like
that situation, that cleanup, that

643
00:31:27,135 --> 00:31:30,215
we can apply to, say, something
like microplastics in the future?

644
00:31:30,779 --> 00:31:35,209
I don't know you can apply
those lessons to microplastics

645
00:31:35,269 --> 00:31:38,249
because this had clear sources-

646
00:31:38,619 --> 00:31:39,059
Mm-hmm

647
00:31:39,189 --> 00:31:42,505
… that could be regulated
sewage treatment plants.

648
00:31:42,875 --> 00:31:43,315
Mm-hmm.

649
00:31:43,455 --> 00:31:45,875
Or the absence of sewage treatment plants.

650
00:31:45,875 --> 00:31:46,205
Yeah.

651
00:31:46,205 --> 00:31:46,745
Yeah, yeah.

652
00:31:47,035 --> 00:31:48,975
Remedy it by putting
in a sewage treatment.

653
00:31:49,662 --> 00:31:53,632
Microplastics are… I don't think
there's any lesson that you can do,

654
00:31:54,275 --> 00:31:56,712
from that to apply to microplastics.

655
00:31:56,782 --> 00:31:58,722
Kinda like comparing
apples to oranges in a way?

656
00:31:58,752 --> 00:31:59,022
Yeah.

657
00:31:59,412 --> 00:32:03,885
But there's a couple other… I don't know
if I can go back to the book contents.

658
00:32:03,895 --> 00:32:04,585
Sure, absolutely.

659
00:32:04,595 --> 00:32:08,995
Other things I would like to
mention, other kinds of pollutants-

660
00:32:09,255 --> 00:32:09,655
Yeah, absolutely

661
00:32:09,655 --> 00:32:12,155
…
that we should be concerned about.

662
00:32:12,985 --> 00:32:15,235
one is pharmaceutical pollution.

663
00:32:15,245 --> 00:32:17,405
Mm. This is necessary stuff.

664
00:32:17,945 --> 00:32:18,465
Mm-hmm.

665
00:32:18,515 --> 00:32:20,695
We have prescriptions or whatever.

666
00:32:21,445 --> 00:32:28,785
We swallow pills, and we pee out a lot
of it, and it goes out into the water.

667
00:32:28,805 --> 00:32:32,085
It's not-- The sewage treatment
plants don't deal with that.

668
00:32:32,345 --> 00:32:32,855
Mm-hmm.

669
00:32:32,935 --> 00:32:40,705
And so you have incidences where, the
fish and whatever in the water are

670
00:32:40,705 --> 00:32:43,805
being affected by the pharmaceuticals.

671
00:32:43,805 --> 00:32:47,895
I mean, there was a- Mm-hmm … there
was a paper some years ago

672
00:32:47,895 --> 00:32:50,765
called Fish on Prozac, right?

673
00:32:51,335 --> 00:32:51,375
Yeah.

674
00:32:51,675 --> 00:32:53,015
Tranquilizers and stuff.

675
00:32:53,425 --> 00:32:56,265
So, you know, affecting
their behavior and stuff.

676
00:32:56,265 --> 00:32:58,385
So that's one thing to worry about.

677
00:32:58,655 --> 00:32:59,395
Even hormones.

678
00:32:59,405 --> 00:33:00,235
Like, there were some fish

679
00:33:00,235 --> 00:33:02,405
that were- Hormones … switching
sex- Exactly … like

680
00:33:02,475 --> 00:33:02,905
throughout

681
00:33:02,905 --> 00:33:05,155
their life history as they-
You get sex alterations.

682
00:33:05,155 --> 00:33:05,405
Yeah.

683
00:33:05,815 --> 00:33:06,025
Right?

684
00:33:06,025 --> 00:33:07,745
From birth control pills and that.

685
00:33:07,885 --> 00:33:08,085
Yep.

686
00:33:08,585 --> 00:33:08,855
Yeah.

687
00:33:09,055 --> 00:33:12,652
Because the sewage treatment
plants don't get those- They

688
00:33:12,652 --> 00:33:14,102
don't catch those compounds

689
00:33:14,542 --> 00:33:14,692
…
kinds of chemicals.

690
00:33:14,692 --> 00:33:14,992
Yeah.

691
00:33:15,672 --> 00:33:20,319
And then a-another really
serious issue… Two others.

692
00:33:20,369 --> 00:33:27,749
one is climate change, except in
addition to temperature issues, the

693
00:33:27,749 --> 00:33:31,089
CO2 that dissolves in the ocean- Mm

694
00:33:31,499 --> 00:33:35,012
turns the ocean more acidic.

695
00:33:35,422 --> 00:33:35,442
Yeah.

696
00:33:35,442 --> 00:33:36,932
Changes the pH.

697
00:33:37,642 --> 00:33:40,542
So you have what's called
ocean acidification.

698
00:33:40,542 --> 00:33:45,102
The pH goes down in the water.

699
00:33:45,722 --> 00:33:49,702
which it's not turning
the ocean really acidic.

700
00:33:49,702 --> 00:33:53,589
The pH is still on the
upper side of seven.

701
00:33:54,099 --> 00:33:56,869
but it's closer to the seven neutral.

702
00:33:57,089 --> 00:33:58,249
Which enough to change, enough to change

703
00:33:58,249 --> 00:33:58,499
the systems.

704
00:33:58,499 --> 00:34:01,089
It's less basic, less alkaline.

705
00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:01,819
Mm-hmm.

706
00:34:01,819 --> 00:34:03,509
So they call it ocean acidification.

707
00:34:03,869 --> 00:34:09,539
And the main effect of this
is impairing shell formation.

708
00:34:10,085 --> 00:34:15,079
Animals that make calcium
carbonate shells have trouble.

709
00:34:15,089 --> 00:34:22,299
So, juvenile oysters, mussels,
clams Are making thinner

710
00:34:22,299 --> 00:34:24,196
shells, which is problematical.

711
00:34:24,196 --> 00:34:25,406
Mm-hmm.

712
00:34:25,776 --> 00:34:31,796
microscopic plankton that are, have
shells like forams, they're like

713
00:34:31,796 --> 00:34:38,266
shelled amoebas in the plankton,
also having trouble making shells.

714
00:34:38,849 --> 00:34:44,356
So that's another chapter devoted
to, um, ocean acidification.

715
00:34:45,229 --> 00:34:51,499
And then I guess the last type of
pollution that I discuss in the book

716
00:34:52,179 --> 00:34:59,029
I call biological pollution, um,
otherwise called invasive species.

717
00:34:59,109 --> 00:35:03,459
An organism ends up where
it didn't used to be.

718
00:35:04,459 --> 00:35:09,929
And this can happen as
a result of shipping.

719
00:35:09,939 --> 00:35:15,359
You know, something hitches a
ride on a ship and gets moved

720
00:35:15,369 --> 00:35:18,529
from, you know, the US to Europe-

721
00:35:18,879 --> 00:35:19,319
Mm-hmm

722
00:35:19,439 --> 00:35:20,846
whatever, and moves- Or back and forth.

723
00:35:20,846 --> 00:35:21,489
Yeah … to a different place.

724
00:35:21,499 --> 00:35:28,169
So we have a lot of new species in
places where they never were before.

725
00:35:28,739 --> 00:35:28,989
Yeah.

726
00:35:28,989 --> 00:35:31,389
Examples like zebra mussels
in the Great Lakes, which

727
00:35:31,389 --> 00:35:32,494
have- Zebra mussels in the- … completely

728
00:35:32,494 --> 00:35:33,149
changed the Great

729
00:35:33,149 --> 00:35:36,329
Lakes … Great Lakes,
you know, a poster child-

730
00:35:36,759 --> 00:35:37,109
Yeah

731
00:35:37,129 --> 00:35:37,559
for this.

732
00:35:38,039 --> 00:35:38,809
Absolutely.

733
00:35:38,809 --> 00:35:39,009
Uh-

734
00:35:39,009 --> 00:35:40,619
I learned that when I was in high school.

735
00:35:40,619 --> 00:35:41,199
I remember-

736
00:35:41,419 --> 00:35:41,779
Right

737
00:35:41,779 --> 00:35:43,209
…
learning about zebra mussels in the

738
00:35:43,209 --> 00:35:43,749
'
90s.

739
00:35:43,909 --> 00:35:48,829
Yeah And there's also this very
beautiful but, deadly lionfish.

740
00:35:48,849 --> 00:35:50,019
The lionfish from the

741
00:35:50,249 --> 00:35:50,659
American marine aquarium industry.

742
00:35:50,799 --> 00:35:53,139
Uh, in, in more tropical regions.

743
00:35:53,289 --> 00:35:53,769
Mm-hmm.

744
00:35:53,869 --> 00:35:58,909
which just eats up everything because
nobody recognizes it as a predator.

745
00:35:59,289 --> 00:35:59,599
Right.

746
00:35:59,939 --> 00:36:05,059
And so that, we were in one
of the Caribbean islands some

747
00:36:05,069 --> 00:36:09,369
years ago snorkeling, and
the density of the lionfish-

748
00:36:09,369 --> 00:36:11,329
Everywhere … were unbelievable.

749
00:36:11,999 --> 00:36:12,219
Yeah.

750
00:36:12,219 --> 00:36:17,202
Um, these aren't generally referred
to as pollution, but I think…

751
00:36:17,785 --> 00:36:21,155
I have a chapter about it and
I call it biological pollution.

752
00:36:21,325 --> 00:36:22,905
Well, I, agree with you in, in that.

753
00:36:22,905 --> 00:36:25,695
I remember the first one you kinda
talked about in the first book, right?

754
00:36:25,695 --> 00:36:25,935
The biological

755
00:36:25,935 --> 00:36:26,065
pollution.

756
00:36:26,065 --> 00:36:27,515
Yes, I think it was in
the first book, too.

757
00:36:27,525 --> 00:36:28,015
Yeah.

758
00:36:28,065 --> 00:36:30,085
and, uh, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

759
00:36:30,085 --> 00:36:33,295
It is a biological pollutant,
something that doesn't belong

760
00:36:33,295 --> 00:36:34,735
there that, that's there now.

761
00:36:34,795 --> 00:36:35,095
Um-

762
00:36:35,105 --> 00:36:35,345
Yeah

763
00:36:35,435 --> 00:36:37,695
and there's different means
of getting to these types of

764
00:36:37,695 --> 00:36:39,145
pollutants that changes the system.

765
00:36:39,595 --> 00:36:41,905
You know, if you look at
chemicals, they change the system.

766
00:36:41,915 --> 00:36:43,895
Microplastics, they change the system.

767
00:36:44,325 --> 00:36:47,135
you look at invasive species,
they're gonna change the system.

768
00:36:47,135 --> 00:36:48,645
That's what makes them so successful.

769
00:36:48,905 --> 00:36:48,985
Right.

770
00:36:48,995 --> 00:36:51,385
And they can have, like, serious
repercussions, not only to the

771
00:36:51,385 --> 00:36:54,555
health of the ecosystem, but
to our health and our economy.

772
00:36:54,565 --> 00:36:54,585
Um-

773
00:36:54,905 --> 00:36:55,195
Yeah.

774
00:36:55,195 --> 00:36:55,545
Well-

775
00:36:55,695 --> 00:36:56,545
…
absolutely.

776
00:36:56,545 --> 00:37:01,529
I mean, and, the invasive species,
unlike the chemicals, the animal,

777
00:37:01,529 --> 00:37:07,669
invasive either animals or algae or
plants or whatever, reproduce and become

778
00:37:08,497 --> 00:37:08,777
Yeah

779
00:37:08,887 --> 00:37:09,477
more.

780
00:37:09,887 --> 00:37:10,237
Yeah.

781
00:37:10,667 --> 00:37:11,007
Yeah.

782
00:37:11,497 --> 00:37:11,957
Um-

783
00:37:11,967 --> 00:37:12,287
Absolutely

784
00:37:12,517 --> 00:37:18,007
…
whereas a chemical pollution only becomes
more when more is released into the water.

785
00:37:18,237 --> 00:37:18,657
Mm-hmm.

786
00:37:18,727 --> 00:37:22,737
Toxic chemical doesn't
reproduce, but, these animals

787
00:37:23,197 --> 00:37:25,417
and plants in the wrong place do.

788
00:37:25,817 --> 00:37:26,207
Yep.

789
00:37:26,657 --> 00:37:27,047
So.

790
00:37:27,657 --> 00:37:27,757
Yep.

791
00:37:27,757 --> 00:37:27,957
Yeah.

792
00:37:28,007 --> 00:37:29,097
No, I completely agree.

793
00:37:29,647 --> 00:37:31,997
Well, I'll tell you, it's,
it's a, it's a fantastic book.

794
00:37:32,057 --> 00:37:33,347
and I highly recommend that people do it.

795
00:37:33,347 --> 00:37:36,297
We'll put a link where people can
buy the first and the second edition,

796
00:37:36,327 --> 00:37:37,167
'cause I think they're both- I,

797
00:37:37,167 --> 00:37:39,757
I hope nobody buys the
first- … worthwhile … edition.

798
00:37:39,777 --> 00:37:40,267
You want them to buy the second?

799
00:37:40,267 --> 00:37:40,297
Or- All right.

800
00:37:40,297 --> 00:37:40,377
'Cause the be- the second
one's more updated.

801
00:37:40,377 --> 00:37:40,397
Oh, yeah.

802
00:37:40,397 --> 00:37:40,537
So buy the second edition at this point.

803
00:37:40,537 --> 00:37:40,587
Yeah.

804
00:37:40,587 --> 00:37:42,307
No, no point in the second.

805
00:37:45,477 --> 00:37:47,137
No point in buying the second.

806
00:37:47,627 --> 00:37:49,867
but I hope people buy the s-
I mean, no point in buying the

807
00:37:50,147 --> 00:37:50,517
first

808
00:37:51,507 --> 00:37:51,557
one.

809
00:37:52,067 --> 00:37:52,167
Buy the first.

810
00:37:52,167 --> 00:37:52,807
I hope people buy- Buy the
second … buy the second.

811
00:37:52,807 --> 00:37:56,057
I don't think they're, making-
Missing it … any more copies.

812
00:37:56,227 --> 00:37:56,497
Right.

813
00:37:56,497 --> 00:37:56,717
Uh- Yeah

814
00:37:57,057 --> 00:38:02,417
…
you can probably get the first, you
know, really cheap secondhand, but-

815
00:38:02,637 --> 00:38:03,077
Gotcha

816
00:38:03,147 --> 00:38:05,327
pay a little more and get the second.

817
00:38:05,437 --> 00:38:06,757
Yeah, get the updated version.

818
00:38:06,877 --> 00:38:07,107
Yeah.

819
00:38:07,147 --> 00:38:07,417
Absolutely.

820
00:38:07,427 --> 00:38:08,587
it's more worthwhile anyway.

821
00:38:08,777 --> 00:38:12,407
We'll put a link to the second one then
so people can, uh, get access to that.

822
00:38:12,737 --> 00:38:15,577
Judith, it's always a
pleasure to have you on.

823
00:38:15,577 --> 00:38:17,477
You are a wealth of knowledge.

824
00:38:17,777 --> 00:38:21,717
Uh, and I love your passion towards this,
of getting information out to the public

825
00:38:21,717 --> 00:38:23,117
because we definitely all need it, right?

826
00:38:23,117 --> 00:38:26,847
I think there's a lack of what's
been happening and just not knowing

827
00:38:26,897 --> 00:38:29,677
what, you know, the different types
of pollutants that we've seen and

828
00:38:29,677 --> 00:38:33,087
their effects on not only humans, but,
uh, even on the ecosystem as well.

829
00:38:33,087 --> 00:38:36,317
So I appreciate you coming out
here and, sharing that with us.

830
00:38:36,317 --> 00:38:38,547
And of course, you're always
welcome to come back and talk more.

831
00:38:38,557 --> 00:38:41,857
I think we have a crab book I think
we discussed before for you to come

832
00:38:41,867 --> 00:38:44,697
back, and we'll talk all about crabs,
just like we did salt marshes, uh- I,

833
00:38:44,827 --> 00:38:47,927
I, I'm always- … back in the day
… delighted to talk with you, Andrew.

834
00:38:48,287 --> 00:38:48,807
Wonderful.

835
00:38:48,817 --> 00:38:49,747
Thank you so much.

836
00:38:50,727 --> 00:38:51,297
Okay.

837
00:38:51,831 --> 00:38:54,731
Thank you, Judith, for joining
us on today's episode of the How

838
00:38:54,731 --> 00:38:56,011
to Protect the Ocean podcast.

839
00:38:56,041 --> 00:38:58,095
Look, I said there's good
news and bad news in this.

840
00:38:58,095 --> 00:38:59,965
We face some challenges
with microplastics.

841
00:39:00,285 --> 00:39:03,365
And you know, in my opinion, I
feel like you have to go after the

842
00:39:03,365 --> 00:39:06,075
makers, you have to go after the
people who are creating it, and you

843
00:39:06,075 --> 00:39:07,395
have to say, "Hey, enough is enough.

844
00:39:07,445 --> 00:39:09,885
We need to start putting better stuff
in our plastics if that's gonna be

845
00:39:09,885 --> 00:39:11,435
the case or making it in a better way.

846
00:39:11,695 --> 00:39:14,375
But also, we need to reduce the amount
of plastics that we use, and we need

847
00:39:14,385 --> 00:39:17,595
to shift away from that." I don't
care if businesses depend on it.

848
00:39:17,605 --> 00:39:18,955
We need to shift away from it.

849
00:39:18,955 --> 00:39:20,675
It's better for the
environment, it's better for us.

850
00:39:20,895 --> 00:39:23,625
As you heard Judith say, it's in
our systems, it's in our bodies,

851
00:39:23,625 --> 00:39:26,975
it's in our lungs, uh, it's in
our water, it's in, our air.

852
00:39:26,975 --> 00:39:30,785
You cannot get away from microplastics,
so much so that it's hard to find

853
00:39:30,805 --> 00:39:34,695
a control when they do experiments
on the effects of microplastics.

854
00:39:34,705 --> 00:39:36,225
So we definitely need to reduce that.

855
00:39:36,415 --> 00:39:37,845
How that's done, I don't know.

856
00:39:37,845 --> 00:39:40,135
But I would love to hear your ideas.

857
00:39:40,135 --> 00:39:43,785
Just let me know, uh, either hit me
up on my socials, which the links

858
00:39:43,785 --> 00:39:46,695
are in the show notes, or you-- if
you're on Spotify, you can comment.

859
00:39:46,695 --> 00:39:47,905
I'd love to hear your thoughts.

860
00:39:48,285 --> 00:39:50,138
Uh, and obviously, don't
forget to get the book.

861
00:39:50,148 --> 00:39:52,998
If you're interested in finding
out more about marine pollution,

862
00:39:53,218 --> 00:39:55,398
you can get the second edition of
Marine Pollution by Judith Weis.

863
00:39:56,008 --> 00:39:57,775
all you have to do is just click
that link in the show notes,

864
00:39:57,785 --> 00:39:58,875
it'll take you right there.

865
00:39:59,165 --> 00:40:02,055
And uh, yeah, I'd love to hear your
opinion on the show just in general.

866
00:40:02,085 --> 00:40:06,005
But anyway, I wanna thank you so much
for joining me on today's episode of

867
00:40:06,005 --> 00:40:07,255
the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

868
00:40:07,255 --> 00:40:08,435
I am your host, Andrew Lewin.

869
00:40:08,445 --> 00:40:09,145
Have a great day.

870
00:40:09,395 --> 00:40:11,595
We'll talk to you next time,
and happy conservation.